The Hobbit in July 2007?

[Lalwendë]

In modern times, things are only labelled as 'sins' as it makes it that much easier for Governments to make lots of tax out of them. That's why sex is no longer a sin but eating lovely greasy chips out of newspaper or smoking a ciggie is. You cannot tax the former but you can tax the latter. And what's more you can get all self-righteous about it too. ;)

There is no tax in Middle-earth so smoking, drinking ale or eating lard is no sin.

The day they put health warnings on films at the cinema will be the day I start looking round for the poster of Big Brother that I've got to salute. I note that it was the evil venture capitalist/despot that was Saruman who also carted off all the pipeweed in The Shire. ;)

[Sauron the White]

from Bethberry
Actually, I'm waiting to hear that the casting for The Hobbit will be colour blind. I can just imagine the dilemma between choosing an Asian actor for Bilbo and Blacks for the dwarves, or a Black actor for Bilbo and Asian ones for the dwarves. Or maybe they will make all the dwarves female actors, but of course we'd never know it. I'm sure that if they made Smaug green, leprecauns would object, so I suspect that is out for Smaug.

21st century political correctness has already tainted the dramatic presentation of JRRT's works. In the LOTR musical which played last year in Toronto, the role of Boromir was played by a Black actor - Dion Johnstone. I cannot even use the politically correct term and refer to him as an African-American because he may have been Canadian.
Not only was it a bit jarring to the eye but the role was poorly written and not one of the better aspects of the play. I saw the same actor a few weeks ago in TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD and he was very good as Tom Robinson.

[Bêthberry]

That's why sex is no longer a sin but eating lovely greasy chips out of newspaper or smoking a ciggie is. You cannot tax the former but you can tax the latter. And what's more you can get all self-righteous about it too. ;)

I suppose that is why some countries have opted to legalise houses of prostitution. Would that be a Value Added Tax? What surcharges would apply? A bit difficult for tourists to carry any goods home and then claim a rebate though.


I note that it was the evil venture capitalist/despot that was Saruman who also carted off all the pipeweed in The Shire. ;)

I believe that in capitalist terms that would be a cartel, no? Or would it be a monopoly? I can never tell the difference between one which is supposed to be acceptable and one which is a no-no. And then there are non-competes, which are the blackest things of all apparently.


In the LOTR musical which played last year in Toronto, the role of Boromir was played by a Black actor - Dion Johnstone. I cannot even use the politically correct term and refer to him as an African-American because he may have been Canadian.


I think the producers missed a Great White Moment there. I was expecting them to cast Inuit actors as the hobbits. Think how that would have increased the Canadian Content, to say nothing about the significant thematic implications.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Ian Holm was a good Bilbo, but he played Bilbo at 111 so I don't know...the public would be looking for someone like him...and I would NOT watch the Hobbit without Serkis and McKellen. ...well maybe without Mckellen. and will Sting look the same?

[Sir Kohran]

from Bethberry


21st century political correctness has already tainted the dramatic presentation of JRRT's works. In the LOTR musical which played last year in Toronto, the role of Boromir was played by a Black actor - Dion Johnstone. I cannot even use the politically correct term and refer to him as an African-American because he may have been Canadian.
Not only was it a bit jarring to the eye but the role was poorly written and not one of the better aspects of the play. I saw the same actor a few weeks ago in TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD and he was very good as Tom Robinson.

Yes, and apparently the latest stage version of LOTR had black Hobbit extras. It is annoying, especially when Tolkien specified no such thing. Reminds me of that horrid Robin Hood series we had last year; despite being set in England in the Middle Ages, there were Muslims and Africans all over the place. There's a time and a place for multiculturalism and neither of these were it.

and will Sting look the same?

I can't imagine why not.

[Elmo]

Ummmmmmm didn't the harfoots have some kind of brown skin? I can't remember to save my life what word Tolkien used to describe them but I'm sure that's what he said. Maybe not black but I'm sure not all the hobbits in the Shire would have been white.

[Morwen]

Ummmmmmm didn't the harfoots have some kind of brown skin? I can't remember to save my life what word Tolkien used to describe them but I'm sure that's what he said. Maybe not black but I'm sure not all the hobbits in the Shire would have been white.

In the Prologue of LotR Tolkien describes the Harfoots as "browner of skin" and goes on to say that they were "the most normal and representative variety of Hobbit, and far the most numerous".
I'm hazarding a guess though that contrast in skin tones between Harfoots and the fairer Fallohides is not that marked - more of a Northern/Southern European contrast. IIRC no Hobbit is described as "swarthy" which seems to be Tolkien's word of choice to describe persons who are markedly darker than, say, the average person of Bree or Gondor.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Ummmmmmm didn't the harfoots have some kind of brown skin? I can't remember to save my life what word Tolkien used to describe them but I'm sure that's what he said. Maybe not black but I'm sure not all the hobbits in the Shire would have been white.

In the Prologue of LotR Tolkien describes the Harfoots as "browner of skin" and goes on to say that they were "the most normal and representative variety of Hobbit, and far the most numerous".
I'm hazarding a guess though that contrast in skin tones between Harfoots and the fairer Fallohides is not that marked - more of a Northern/Southern European contrast. IIRC no Hobbit is described as "swarthy" which seems to be Tolkien's word of choice to describe persons who are markedly darker than, say, the average person of Bree or Gondor.

I think the "browner of skin" thing came from maybe the Harfoots were more tan by nature that the two other types of hobbits that the names escape me now.:) I need to get my books out again.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

The three kinds of hobbits are:
The Harfoots,
The Fallowhides,
and The Stoors.
:)

[Elmo]

Doesn't Tolkien mention the hobbits coming fron the east, relatively a short time compared to the Edain etc...... just a thought.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Yes he does.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

They went over the Misty Mountains.

[Elmo]

Well then, since they are a sub-species of man and they come from the east they might share the same ethnicity as men that way.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Well Tolkien did describe them the way he wanted to, and it did not say that they were say...from the middle east or Africa or the Americas. and since the he was writing about middle earth which was essentially England, I wouldn't think that they would have people of other races in that particular time period, now the Easterlings would probably be a bit darker of skin as the people of Rohan, right? So the same thing would apply to hobbits. Thats just my opinion.

[Elmo]

No no, Middle Earth is meant to be the whole of Eurasia and Africa. Only the north-west of Middle Earth is meant to be Europe and the Shire Britian. (I like to think of the north Farthing being Scotland;)) There were 'swarthy' Easterlings and I'm sure he talks about black men from Harad, from the 'burning heats' down South.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Oh so does that mean that the Men from Numenor were uh like Africans?

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Oh wait Numenor was uh drowned and it was kinda a magical country so to speak.

[Elmo]

No:rolleyes:, I just don't believe you can read Tolkien and not believe there were races of men in his story which basically followed the present day arrangement. It was a fictionalised version of our own world. He did not envisage a monochromatic one by any means.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

I see, I just thought... oh nevermind. I'll go back to smoking my invisible pipe and singing Bilbos bath Song.

[Mithalwen]

Mandrake in the Telegraph yesterday claims that PJ has made it up with New Line and will make the Hobbit with Sir Iam McLuvvie reprising his role as Gandalf. I find it rather depressing. I had got rather excited about seeing a different vision of ME. If it is to be PJ again I almost feel I know whatit will be like already :( .

Tolkien is big enough not to be reliant on one director's interpretation...

[davem]

I had got rather excited about seeing a different vision of ME. If it is to be PJ again I almost feel I know whatit will be like already :( .

Tolkien is big enough not to be reliant on one director's interpretation...

Same old same old.....but that's what most of the movie fans want - in fact, as most of them haven't read the book I strongly suspect most of them want (& PJ will move heaven & earth to give them) Aragorn & Legolas in there too.

There won't be anything new at all - but that's what audiences want from sequels - exactly the same story with the same actors, but with bigger sets & louder explosions. Personally, I find the idea of a Hobbit movie holds no appeal at all.

Now, if we were talking about a Guillermo del Toro 'Smith', or a Terry Gilliam 'Giles'.....

[Bêthberry]

Now, if we were talking about a Guillermo del Toro 'Smith', or a Terry Gilliam 'Giles'.....

Now that "July 2007" has come and gone, is there any chance of starting some kind of internet petition for at least one of these ideas? It would be intriguing to see what kind of 'legs' the ideas have. :cool:

[davem]

Now that "July 2007" has come and gone, is there any chance of starting some kind of internet petition for at least one of these ideas? It would be intriguing to see what kind of 'legs' the ideas have. :cool:\

I'd also like to see Ang Lee get his hands on CoH (after I've persuaded him to film Njal's Saga.....)

[Child of the 7th Age]

For better or worse (depending on your leanings!), Shaye and New Line are again negotiating with PJ (as Mithalwen confirmed a few posts before), despite the fact that Shaye vowed earlier not to have anything to do with him. Here's one of the many stories out there in recent days: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/10007663-hobbit/news/1662251.

But while some of these suggest Peter Jackson will direct, others claim he will confine himself to producing with Sam Raimi tagged as director. I assume that New Line is under a lot of pressure because of their recent financial problems and the fact that the clock is ticking down.....

[Sauron the White]

These various stories seem to point in the same direction - Shaye and PJ's reps are talking. Beyond that nothing. As a big supporter of Jackson and the LTOR films, I dearly want to see him both produce and direct THE HOBBIT. This is the best news we have had in months.

[Sauron the White]

from davem

I'd also like to see Ang Lee get his hands on CoH (after I've persuaded him to film Njal's Saga.....)
Interesting suggestion .... Lee could make a totally brilliant film that combines the lush scenery of ME with the angst and troubles of the lead character..... or it could be a real depressing film that simply looks good.

For my money, the best thing that Lee ever did was EAT, DRINK, MAN, WOMAN. I just cannot accept so much of TIGER/DRAGON with its defying of the most basic physics. Yeah, I know its a genre thing - but so much of it just looked stupid. The landscapes were beautiful and it sure made for great stills - but the flying stuff just is not my cup of tea. BAREBACK MOUNTING is one of the greatly overrated films of the last few years. Were it not for its so called "cutting edge" subject matter, it would have made a very tiny splash. It faded like a dying meteor in the months between release and the Oscars and has been almost unheard of since that time. But like lots of films set in the American West, it sure looked glorious.

davem - what is it about Lee that spurs you to make this statement? What do you especially like in his films?

[obloquy]

davem - what is it about Lee that spurs you to make this statement? What do you especially like in his films?

Yeah, I'm curious as well. Why Lee?

[davem]

Yeah, I'm curious as well. Why Lee?

Well, just to be polite - 'cos I haven't too much time at the moment.

Firstly, you have to avoid at all costs an 'action movie' director like PJ. Lee would give us a grown up move that treated the story seriously & he can handle action scenes without descending into thud & blunder histrionics or losing control of the CGI. The rest is a matter of taste - I'd just like to see his version.

[Mithalwen]

Ang Lee also did a very good job on Sense and Sensibility. I am not a film expertor even a great filmbuff, but I doubt many directors could provide both the impressive action that hollywood demands and have the delicate touch the story needs from what I have seen of his work he could. The unfulfilled love of the characters of Chow Yun Fat and Michelle Yeoh moved me deeply- I can imagine he would handle the problems of the Turin- Nienor relationship sensitively.

[Sauron the White]

davem ... while you and I are at complete opposites regarding the worth and quality of the Jackson films, I do think you may have something regarding the Ang Lee idea. COH just could be the thing for Lee. His two big strengths seem to be the capturing of beautiful visuals and Middle-earth certainly has that - and the deft hadling of characters that are less than optimistic or the usual hero types. Lee could be just the director for COH.

I do think that if you expect a ratcheting down of action scenes you badly do not understand the commercial aspect of modern film. Filming something like COH would be a minimum $100 million (US dollars) venture. A studio putting out that kind of money would want a proven money making model to follow - and as much as you would not like it - the Jackson LOTR films would be front and center in their mind.

I feel that there was a more than proper balance in the Jackson films and Hollywood looks at the box office receipts and most likely agrees. COH would have plenty of action. But perhaps Lee could present it differently and balance it with the more personal struggle of Turin.

I do think you are onto something with this idea.

[Lalaith]

Oh...I´ve just had a thought, while discussing the late great Bergman on another site, particularly vis a vis the Virgin Spring...wouldn´t he have made a cracking CoH....sigh....

[obloquy]

Oh...I´ve just had a thought, while discussing the late great Bergman on another site, particularly vis a vis the Virgin Spring...wouldn´t he have made a cracking CoH....sigh....

If by "cracking" you mean "completely bizarre", then probably. We would certainly finish the film with a very intimate understanding of the emotions of all the characters!

[davem]

Oh...I´ve just had a thought, while discussing the late great Bergman on another site, particularly vis a vis the Virgin Spring...wouldn´t he have made a cracking CoH....sigh....

And what would Kurosawa have made of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad?

[Bêthberry]

And what would Kurosawa have made of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad?


Well, for starters, he'd probably have been happy there were no letter 'L's in the name.

[obloquy]

And what would Kurosawa have made of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad?

Not much, I imagine. Maybe you should drop some names of people who have a film in their oeuvre indicative of their being fit to tackle the material. Maybe Terry Gilliam, Ridley Scott, or Alfonso Cuaron? These filmmakers are capable of making mature, uncompromised works and (based on their prior work) might actually include the things we want to see: namely balrogs, dragons, Morgoth, Sauron, trolls, etc.

[Sauron the White]

Ridley Scott already tried this genre. It was called LEGEND and was pretty bad.

[Lalaith]

If by "cracking" you mean "completely bizarre
Pah, Bergman wasn´t just "scenes from a marriage" you know, he could be incredibly austere.
Kurosawa, now there´s a thought....he could have done "aure enteluva" really well, for sure...

[obloquy]

Pah, Bergman wasn´t just "scenes from a marriage" you know, he could be incredibly austere.
Kurosawa, now there´s a thought....he could have done "aure enteluva" really well, for sure...

He wasn't just Scenes, true. Bergman was also Winter Light, Autumn Sonata, Cries and Whispers, The Seventh Seal, Wild Strawberries, Through a Glass Darkly, Persona, The Silence, Hour of the Wolf, Fanny and Alexander, and many more that I haven't yet seen. Which of these would you say makes him seem like a good choice for Tolkien? Or maybe it's one that I did not list? Seriously, I'm wondering how we get from Bergman's themes of psychosis, split personality, the nature of death, the existence of God, etc., to the swords and dragons of fantasy, mature though it may be. Is it the troupe of dwarfs in Winter Light, perhaps?

I'd love to see Tolkien's material adapted in a serene, adult way as much as anyone, but Bergman? Kurosawa? Really, someone tell me why these, and not, say, Yasujiro Ozu? Or Andrei Tarkovsky? They've all got nothing to do with Tolkien or anything even similar.

Del Toro was actually a really good suggestion. There are also some other relatively young, quality filmmakers who have not yet branched into the genre but might be willing to, such as Jonathan Glazer, Christopher Nolan, Richard Linklater. No, they don't have much more in their portfolios to support them as candidates than those seasoned masters mentioned, but they are at least alive.

[Lalaith]

Which of these would you say makes him seem like a good choice for Tolkien

I specificly said which film, in my original post. The Virgin Spring. Set in mediaeval times, involves revenge, fate and an outlaw gang. I don´t think Bergman would be good for LotR or the Hobbit, but I do think he could have done something very interesting with CoH, which needs a more introspective touch, and less CGI.

[Sauron the White]

Back to THE HOBBIT film for a moment .... looks like the MGM-New Line rights package may have a slight wrinkle.

this from The Financial Times

Credit crunch hits $1bn MGM finance plan
By Matthew Garrahan in Los Angeles and James Politi in New York

Published: August 15 2007 22:02 | Last updated: August 15 2007 22:02

The credit crunch shaking world markets has hit Hollywood after Goldman Sachs and Deutsche Bank, which were trying to raise up to $1bn to finance films for Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, withdrew their commitment to underwrite the deal. Bringing in private equity, hedge fund and institutional investors to fund “slates” of several films has become a popular way for Hollywood studios to spread the risk attached to production.

But with credit markets tightening, the attempt by the banks to raise $700m-$1bn for MGM productions and co-productions has been blown off-course, according to people close to the situation.

The financing would have provided funds for films including The Hobbit, an MGM co-production with New Line Entertainment, and the fourth instalment in the Terminator franchise. It is also likely that funds would have gone towards the next James Bond film, an MGM co-production with Sony.

Goldman declined to comment and Deutsche did not return calls. The financing has not been abandoned, however, with the banks believed to have moved from an underwriting commitment to a “best efforts” commitment to complete the financing.

But the underwriting withdrawal amid a broader credit crunch means the deal will be delayed. It is unclear when it will be revived.

MGM also declined to comment. However, the studio is understood to be relaxed about the delay because none of the films in line to receive funds from the financing is due to start production imminently.

MGM was sold to Texas Pacific Group, Providence Equity Partners, Sony and Comcast in 2004. The four shareholders bought the studio and its 4,000-title library from Kirk Kerkorian for $4.8bn.

Since the sale, MGM, under CEO Harry Sloan, has moved to a new business model, streamlining its operations and beefing up its distribution business, where it has deals with independent producers including The Weinstein Company. Mr Sloan has also revived the United Artists studio label, which is controlled by MGM, bringing in Tom Cruise and Paula Wagner, the film star’s production partner, to run the division. UA is close to securing $500m financing for its production slate. The deal is being arranged by Merrill Lynch.

Meanwhile, MGM is keen to boost its film library by producing a limited number of “tent-pole” movies each year. With the average cost of a Hollywood film close to $100m, the studio is keen to tap other sources for production funds.

Other studios, such as Warner Bros Entertainment and 20th Century Fox, have raised funds from private equity and hedge fund investors. More than $12bn has been committed to film financing projects in the last year, with investors attracted by deals that allow them to share in the success of films that perform well at the box office.

Although I have to believe that they could quickly raise the needed $150 million or so if the money was directly earmarked for a HOBBIT film and not a package of others included.