Christopher Tolkien to finish lost Middle Earth novel

[Aiwendil]

Maedhros wrote:
That is a real shame.

I don’t know. On the one hand, there are certainly sections of the story for which other sources provide a more substantial narrative (e.g. everything from the rescue of Turin to his coming to Nargothrond is told much more fully in the alliterative ‘Turin’). But Tolkien did apparently intend the ‘Narn’ to stand on its own as a complete and self-contained narrative. Also, by restricting himself to these texts, CT ensured the stylistic uniformity of the final product.

I was wondering Aiwendil, that since it may take me months to have my own copy to read, if you had found new details about the Nirnaeth, that were not included in previous versions of the story.

Again, I haven’t bought the book yet (twenty-six dollars for a story I already own is a bit steep, methinks, though I do intend to get it eventually); my comments are based on about a fifteen minute flip through the pages. I did happen to notice that Hurin’s slaying of the trolls is still there, presumably confirming that this detail comes from the ‘Narn’ version of the battle.

The omision of the last versiongenealogy of Orodreth's genealogy is a real shame to me. Why don't make it right?

I agree about this. It seems that CT thinks the latest genealogy is an ‘unworkable’ projected change, but I entirely fail to see why.

It seems to me that with the little additions that are not found in any previous texts that have been added to the CoH, we would need to put them in our version.

Agreed. But that’s a matter for another forum . . .

[Sir Kohran]

SPOILERS

I just finished reading the whole thing. I hadn't read The Silmarillion, so the ending took me by surprise...it was very tragic and bitter, about as far away from Mr Bilbo's happy quest as you can get. I'm actually feeling sad...this is probably the first time a book has moved me this much. The power of Tolkien...

Now I just need to go off and cry somewhere :(

[Nogrod]

I'm actually feeling sad...this is probably the first time a book has moved me this much. The power of Tolkien...The power of the old legends told by people who live in countries where the sun doesn't rise in the winter for a couple of months... :rolleyes:

[davem]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/oxford/content/articles/2007/04/19/hurin.shtml
(link just below Tolkien pic)

And a very good review of CoH by John Garth (Tolkien & the Great War) in today's Sunday Telegraph - not on line as yet, but I'll keep an eye on the site...

[davem]

Here's a transcript of the Newsnight interview:
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s1901898.htm

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The omision of the last version genealogy of Orodreth's genealogy is a real shame to me. Why don't make it right?


I agree about this. It seems that CT thinks the latest genealogy is an ‘unworkable’ projected change, but I entirely fail to see why.

It's not a question of workability or un-, but rather Christopher's decision to present JRRT's Narn as closely as possible. At the time the Narn was written (1951-56 or 57), Orodreth was still Felagund's brother: the revised genealogy arose later. Introducing elements from other, later writings was the sort of editorial 'meddling' CRT sought to avoid this time around.

Whether 'later' = 'correct' is a debate for another day.....

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I love this from The Washington Post:

"Its central protagonist, Túrin, is one of the most complex characters in all Middle Earth, a tormented, brooding anti-hero who bears hallmarks of a sword-wielding Heathcliff."

[davem]

Someone's jumping on the bandwagon

http://www.childrenofhurinmovie.com/

[lindil]

thanks for the review Aiwendil, I looked in vain for a detailed account of it's composite construction from the amazon reviews the day after it came out.

I did get a chance to peek at it yesterday but too much was going on in the local bookstore to dive in.

From Dave M's review sounds like I may want the deluxe [esp if a matching Silm may be on the way]

As for a movie? Please lord NO!

CJRT as I have heard holds the cards here, and I am grateful.
May the Silmarillion and all it's stories remain forever untainted by the artistic lic, of hollywood. Been there, done that...

Aiwendil mentioned the conservatism of CJRT's choices, but this was a foregone conclusion as the 2nd ed. Silm made only the most minor changes. If the Gil-Galad parentage question was going to be revisted, that would have been the time. He wants ths to be an intro to the Silm it seems [I did get to rtead a bit of the preface/fwd]. I am actually suprised he changed even when Anglachel was given!

Overall though it may well be the intro to the Silm that has been needed since 77 for so many folks who didn't or had a hard time 'getting it'.

I wonder if he will do the same for Beren and Luthien as my memory recalls that there was a fairly detailed 50's version of the first sections, that was not used for the Silm, and undoubtedly other more detailed texts were compressed as well, and it would have probably an even wider appeal. IN all of the interviews has there been any word for CJRT or Adam that there will be more Silm material to come???

And apologies if that was adressed already...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Aiwendil mentioned the conservatism of CJRT's choices, but this was a foregone conclusion as the 2nd ed. Silm made only the most minor changes. If the Gil-Galad parentage question was going to be revisted, that would have been the time. He wants ths to be an intro to the Silm it seems [I did get to rtead a bit of the preface/fwd]. I am actually suprised he changed even when Anglachel was given!

This conservatism, you should understand, has little to do with a desire for consistency with the 1977 text, but reflects rather "an extreme scrupulosity" in his handling of his father's manuscripts. In other words, he was being conservative with regard to the Narn papers, and accordingly moved the giving of Anglachel because, since 1980, he has concluded he was mistaken in his interpretation of those texts. But with regard to Orodreth, and especially the inclusion of words and phrases he left out or altered in the Unfinished Tales edition, he has stuck to the original rather than presume to 'improve' it.

Overall though it may well be the intro to the Silm that has been needed since 77 for so many folks who didn't or had a hard time 'getting it'.

That's indeed what he had in mind- to present to Lord of the Rings readers some of the First Age legendarium in a form less "rebarbative" (his word) than the Silmarillion. Nonetheless, I predict that it will really appeal only to that subset of LR readers who enjoy the Appendices

I wonder if he will do the same for Beren and Luthien as my memory recalls that there was a fairly detailed 50's version of the first sections, that was not used for the Silm, and undoubtedly other more detailed texts were compressed as well, and it would have probably an even wider appeal. IN all of the interviews has there been any word for CJRT or Adam that there will be more Silm material to come???

That's all there is. I'm afraid that it's not the case that "other more detailed texts were compressed as well." Chapter 19 of the 1977 text represents the most detailed and expansive versions of the three that Tolkien wrote in 1937. The 1951 version remains unpublished, and I suppose it might see the light of day; but it's been described as nothing more than a paraphrase of the second Lay of Leithian (HME III), and at any rate only extends through B & L's meeting.

There is some non-Middle-earth writing which I would like to see (and have suggested as much to CRT): The Fall of Arthur, Aotrou and Itroun, and the Beowulf translation(s). But it appears that with the CoH the Silmarillion cupboard is about bare- after thirty years and 15 books.

[lindil]

quote: "This conservatism, you should understand, has little to do with a desire for consistency with the 1977 text, but reflects rather "an extreme scrupulosity" in his handling of his father's manuscripts."

hmm. His editing of the Ruin of Doriath was anything but conservative.

But other than that [which was arguably nec. if he wanted a full story] I must agree.

But I was still a little disappointed he did not clean up his own version of canon at least a bit more.
-------
thanks for the heads up re: other publishing hopes and lack thereof.

What I am really hoping for is an Annotated Silm, that sidebars and/or includes all the choice bits of HoME w/ out trying to smoothout inconsistencies, but rather puts all the choice bits in next to where the occur [or where left out of the Silm] A sort of Annotated Hobbit but replacing the Commentary and pics from other editions, w/ JRRTs own Silm writings. I think this is perhaps the last thing needing to be done to give JRRT's full work to the public in a manner most befitting the writings.
Thus:
*the new Turin could replace the old [which could be sidebarred [[sp?]] w/ the 77/99 Turin.

*The poetry where it exists and is worth it, also could be along side.

*The Shibboleth could be added alongside the flight of the Noldor where relevant, etc

*The more fascinating Lost Tale amplifications which were never revisited [The Fall of Gondolin for instance] could be boxed and inserted or sidbarred, or included in a special font...

*And the tale of years/Annals could be running along the bottom as well.

*But I think most importantly, alot of real gems: Osanwe-Kenta, Laws and Customs of the Eldar, the Athrabeth etc, could be appendicized in greater Silm, and get the readership they deserve, not tucked away exclusively in 12 volume series' and even more obscure Elvish Lang journals.

Or something along those lines. As long as canon is NOT an issue then the possibilities and the editing [other than layout] could be relatively simple.

And it could get the deluxe box set treatment [3 vol's?] that the Silmarillion so richly deserved, but never got.

Heck, he could even put the Translations from the Elvish title to use.

Anyway, maybe that idea will float in the right direction...

----------
Until then at least our 'New Silmarillion' forum folks have one more text much closer to 'fulness' than a year ago, and we have some new bits as well.

Mr. Underhill: any new thoughts on trolls in the 1st age?

And a belated welcome to the Downs William!

[Aiwendil]

William Cloud Hickli wrote:
It's not a question of workability or un-, but rather Christopher's decision to present JRRT's Narn as closely as possible. At the time the Narn was written (1951-56 or 57), Orodreth was still Felagund's brother: the revised genealogy arose later. Introducing elements from other, later writings was the sort of editorial 'meddling' CRT sought to avoid this time around.

Good point. And you're right that the fact that he moved the gift of Anglachel indicates that consistency with the '77 was not his supreme principle.

Lindil wrote:
Overall though it may well be the intro to the Silm that has been needed since 77 for so many folks who didn't or had a hard time 'getting it'.

Indeed, it seems to me that the virtue of this publication is that many readers will be exposed to the marvellous Turin saga who otherwise would not have been.

As for a movie? Please lord NO!

You know, I've always thought that the 'Narn' could make a truly incredible movie; actually it strikes me as being more fit for cinematic adaptation than is LotR. However, I'm quite certain that if such a film were made today in Hollywood it would be a complete disaster. But bring, say, Ingmar Bergman back to life and put it in his hands - now that would be great cinema.

Edit: Hang on, Ingmar Bergman's still alive!? Shows what I know . . .

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I was needlessly obscure. What I was trying to say was that CRT's scrupulosity has developed over the years, so that he now regards some of what he did thirty years ago as having "overstepped the editorial function." Therefore he has given us the Narn as written (or as nearly so as possible), without introducing alterations from other sources even when they are later or more 'correct.'

I disagree that this 300-page book should replace Chapter 19 of the 1977 text. The Silmarillion was always supposed to be an epitome, a compressed and summarised account: as CRT points out in the Appendix, his father's intention was to write 'Silmarillion versions' of the Great Tales as abridgments of the 'long versions' (whenever he got around to writing those); he started the ball rolling when he wrote the later entries of the Grey Annals as compressions of the later part of the Narn (the first bit written).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But bring, say, Ingmar Bergman back to life and put it in his hands - now that would be great cinema.

Yes!! In black and white. With Max von Sydow as Turin. And of course everybody dies.

Puts me in mind now also of Peter Brooks' King Lear, with Paul Scofield. Also B&W, in a stark snowscape- and, again, Lear ends with everybody's corpses strewn around.

[lindil]

Willaim, I was not suggesting a replacement in THE Silmarillion, but suggesting what could be added to an "Annotated" Silm. The whole SIlm would be included...

[Lalwendë]

I have the deluxe which is slipcased - covered with the same scabious blue cloth as the half bindings of the book. It has the dragon helm and the JRRT monogram embossed in gold. Teh slipcover of the ordinary versionis the frontispiece.

I don't know if the ordo has the same illustrations - various colour landscapes and the pencil drawings in the text . The deluxe is a larger format and has high grade paper as well as a more substantial binding. It is a "serious" book - I mean I received a hard copy of UT in the same post and while it is nice it is not in the same league. I am reading Hurin with tissue paper around the cover to prevent finger marks even .. and it certainly won't be read with a glass of wine/cup of tea/ crumpet itn the other mitt....

I've kept the plastic wrapping around the slipcase on mine for now while it's not 'put away' on the bookshelves, lest something nasty get spilled on it!

I'm very pleased with the quality of the book itself as an object - the paper is very sturdy indeed and stands up well to reading, turning pages etc. It's also not too heavy to handle easily, something that always puts me off if a book is too cumbersome to say read in a reclined position! :D I ended up putting my hardback of Jonathan Strange away and ony look at the paperback now because it was too heavy for me to hold and read.

Anyway, it's also got a nice look - a nice retro grey and air force blue binding and looks marvellous next to the matching deluxe Hobbit and LotR. Don't know what colour they will use if they do one of the Sil though - they've already used green, blue and a dull red for these editions.

[Thinlómien]

I've read most of the book and I must say I love it. I'm so fascinated by some character portrayals (Andróg is not the idiot we used to see, but an intriguing character both good and bad, Mîm's more sympathic, Aerin has an edge and Brandir and Gwindor are even more tragic...) and by some passages I've never read before. That book is a little treasure. :D

[Lalaith]

I've gone back to UT and the Sil to see what is new and what is not, and in fact there's not as much original stuff as I'd first thought, it's been a while since I read the UT version.
One sentence, which was in a UT footnote, is sadly missing from CoH.
"Always he sought in all faces of women the face of Lalaith".

Shame, because it is such a universal truth. :Merisu:

[davem]

'nother one

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/ID24Aa01.html

Very good too

[Bêthberry]

I think at this point I will stop reading the reviews while I wait to acquire the book and read it. I will even forego reading davem's thread "Turin the Hopeless" so I can read the book as much as possible (having already read UT and The Silm) "without prejudice". :cool:

[Lalaith]

That review really is excellent, isn't it? A lot of stuff relevant to your Turin thread, Davem.



See you later, I hope, Bethberry....

[Lalwendë]

I don't know if we had this one yet? It has some things about Ragnarok in it that I'm thinking about... I found it on a news feed through work so it's a right big quote:

Copyright 2007 Times Newspapers Limited All Rights Reserved Sunday Times (London) April 8, 2007, Sunday

SECTION: FEATURES; Culture; Pg. 6 LENGTH: 878 words HEADLINE: The stuff of legend BYLINE: Robbie Hudson

Tolkien's tales are tangled in ancient Nordic myths, says Robbie Hudson

The drama of The Lord of the Rings is hobbit-sized compared with the grandeur of the older tales Tolkien worked on all his life, and which his son, Christopher, has devoted more than 30 years to cataloguing and collating. On the one hand, Tolkien was always the bright-eyed child who thought the branch-cutting army of Shakespeare's Dunsinane was a con trick, and "wanted to devise a setting by which the trees might really march to war". On the other hand, he was the Oxford professor of Anglo-Saxon frustrated that England didn't have a proper mythical past and determined to make up the difference himself. The Children of Hurin is but one story from this epic "legendarium", as Tolkien called it.

Other folklorists

The Finns still hold a holiday to celebrate Elias Lonnrot's Kalevala epic, collected in the 1830s, while Jacob Grimm tried to recover German roots through a dictionary, a grammar, a mythology and, of course, fairy tales. William Morris wrote an English version of the Volsunga saga, a 13th-century Icelandic prose version of a story thought to be based on happenings in central Europe in the fifth century. Featuring Sigurd the hero and Fafnir the dragon, it was condensed by Andrew Lang in his Red Fairy Tale Book, which inspired Tolkien as a child. In Wagner's Ring Cycle, Sigurd and Fafnir became Siegfried and Fafner. Although Tolkien disclaimed similarities with Wagner ("Both rings are round, and there the resemblance ceases"), there are strong links between Sigurd's story and The Children of Hurin.

The Inklings

The Inklings were a group of scholarly friends, CS Lewis among them, who gave Tolkien his first excited audience. Lewis, who gave The Hobbit rave reviews, was, according to his biographer, AN Wilson, the "first Tolkien addict".

The Silmarillion

Published in 1977, this extraordinary book ("mad in the best sense," wrote The New York Times) is the simplest version of Tolkien's overall vision and contains the first published account of Hurin and his children. Written in a solemn, insistent, King James cadence, it moves from famously dull creation myth to the relentless and tragic story of how Morgoth, Tolkien's Lucifer figure, brings evil into the world; how elves and men battle him vainly; and how, eventually, the gods join them, conquer Morgoth and shut him outside the Door of Night for ever. Sauron, the Dark Lord of The Lord of the Rings, was Morgoth's lieutenant. The human warrior Hurin will not yield to Morgoth, so his children are cursed. Hurin's son, Turin, is a constant thorn in Morgoth's side, but the curse follows Turin as he kills friends, unknowingly marries his sister and finally commits suicide.

Christopher Tolkien and the legendarium

Tolkien worked on these stories all his life, leaving behind a corpus of notes and different versions. His son, Christopher, also an Oxford don, has dealt with these like a traditional scholar, evaluating competing versions of different legends. The Silmarillion was followed, questioned and clarified by Unfinished Tales (1980) and the 12-volume History of Middle-earth (1983-96). These are full of scraps, notes and hints of what Tolkien actually intended to say about Hurin's family. Indeed, Christopher's son, Adam, recently called The Children of Hurin "the completed puzzle, in a sense".

What's missing from The Silmarillion?

Don't read this if you're afraid of spoilers: some accounts say Tolkien intended to end with a final battle inspired by the Norse Ragnarok. Morgoth will escape back into the world in the last strand of time, where he will be slain by a returning Turin. It would be a more upbeat ending, certainly.

Who is Turin based on?

Tolkien said that Turin's story was "an attempt to reorganise the tale of Kullervo the hapless into a form of my own". Kullervo appears in the Finnish Kalevala. Both characters were born after their fathers were lost in battle (though Hurin, Turin's father, was imprisoned rather than killed). Both commit accidental incest; and, in both cases, the sister throws herself into a river. Both Kullervo and Turin die by falling on their sentient black swords, both of which speak, and agree to drink their masters' blood. There are other sources, too: the battles of Turin and Glaurung the dragon echo Beowulf, but they are closer to the Norse saga of Sigurd and Fafnir. Sigurd digs a trench and stabs Fafnir from beneath; Turin hides in a gorge and does the same. Both are abandoned by their fearful companions, Regin and Dorlas respectively.

Is it a tragedy?

Turin has a terrible time, but to be a classically tragic figure, one has to be responsible for one's own misfortune. While Feanor, The Silmarillion's central figure, brings tragedy on the elves by swearing a terrible and unbreakable oath, Turin can be seen as the unfortunate victim of Morgoth's curse. On the other hand, like Feanor, he consistently exhibits the central tragic flaw of hubris. Tolkien's view may be guessed by his analysis of the word ofermod in the Old English poem The Battle of Maldon. Byrhtnoth of Essex exhibited ofermod, or "excessive spirit", which courted and led to disaster in the fight against the Vikings. In Danish, as Tolkien the linguist well knew, overmod means "hubris".

[Mithalwen]

I know it it pointless... but I am going to write and complain about the Craig Brown review inteh Mail on Sunday. I can cope well with people not liking Tolkien but I object to someone claiming to be "Critic of the Year" sneering at a book he clearly hasn't read more than a couple of pages of and can't be arsed to provide correct information about...

Teh Sunday Telegraph one was lovely though :D

[davem]

annuver one

http://www.business-standard.com/opinionanalysis/storypage.php?leftnm=4&subLeft=2&chklogin=N&autono=282227&tab=r

[Lalaith]

the Craig Brown review inteh Mail on Sunday
Link?

Oh and Mith, I do sympathise with the urge to write a letter to the MoS, or the Daily Mail.
I want to write letters every time I go near the wretched rag. Often in my own blood. Or better still, Richard Littlejohn's. So I tend to just avoid it altogether.

[davem]

From the Guardian:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/digestedread/story/0,,2064264,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=10

[Mithalwen]

Link?

Oh and Mith, I do sympathise with the urge to write a letter to the MoS, or the Daily Mail.
I want to write letters every time I go near the wretched rag. Often in my own blood. Or better still, Richard Littlejohn's. So I tend to just avoid it altogether.


Err I *blushes* I have the hard copy only ... my dad buys it..... personally I usually want to strangle Suzanne Moore....

[littlemanpoet]

I feel like a thief. I stopped by the bookstore after work today and grasped the last one on the shelf. Local bookstore price: $28. Marked 20% off. What a steal! The pictures are gorgeous, of course. Including the ones that head each chapter. I'm a little disappointed in the chapter titles; then again, I can't imagine a "Flotsam and Jetsam" in this dark tome. I wish I wasn't so busy the next few days! :(

[Sir Kohran]

I feel like a thief. I stopped by the bookstore after work today and grasped the last one on the shelf. Local bookstore price: $28. Marked 20% off. What a steal! The pictures are gorgeous, of course. Including the ones that head each chapter. I'm a little disappointed in the chapter titles; then again, I can't imagine a "Flotsam and Jetsam" in this dark tome. I wish I wasn't so busy the next few days! :(

One thing that really struck me about the chapter titles was that there were several titles reading: 'The Death Of (insert name here)'. Whilst it does give away the story, I think it gives the overall story a sense of desperation - the regular deaths of various characters, each one marked in a title, emphasizing the ultimately depressing ending.

[Lalwendë]

Link?

Oh and Mith, I do sympathise with the urge to write a letter to the MoS, or the Daily Mail.
I want to write letters every time I go near the wretched rag. Often in my own blood. Or better still, Richard Littlejohn's. So I tend to just avoid it altogether.

It's not worth bothering penning anything to the Daily Heil (as I have found out it is also known as - due to a history of supporting Mosley and Hitler right up to 1939! :eek: ). Three of us intrepid Brits all wrote something in response to some reactionary polemic by Littlejohn about St George's Day and they didn't bother posting up our comments - the thought police had us sadly :(

I should still like to read that appalling review though.

[davem]

More
http://www.thesunchronicle.com/articles/2007/04/25/news/news4.txt

[narfforc]

I got my books at Moreton-in-Marsh on Sunday 22nd, I bought a normal hardback for reading and the Deluxe edition (which comes with the picture of Turin unspoilt by text), I spoke to Alan Lee about whether he'd been influenced by any other helmet when drawing the Dragon-helm of Dor-lomin, Lal had asked me to pose this question, he replied that he had not, however he may have subconsciously done so without knowing, he signed my books, one to myself and one to my alter ego U.R.R Jokin, and I went to off to get my Silmarillions signed by Ted Nasmith which took ages because my friends were in the middle of buying the original painting for The Kinslaying at Alqualonde, and prints of The Riders of Rohan and An Unexpected Morning Visit (Bag End).

[davem]

Just glanced at the Sun-Chronicle review
http://www.thesunchronicle.com/articles/2007/04/25/news/news4.txt

The novel's pessimism is a product of its time, according to Drout, who said Tolkien wrote of Túrin's flaws to rebut the Nazi myth of the "Übermensch," or superman. (comment by Michael Drout)

Does this make any sense at all? The story originated in the BoLT (circa 1917), & the Narn was composed in the 1950's.

Is Drout kidding, or just being provocative?

[davem]

Tolkien podcast
http://www.sqpn.com/

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I don't know if Tolkien in the 50s really had the Nazis especially in mind, any more than he did when writing Lord of the Rings (when they were still around)- and of course the basic lineaments of the story go back to the old Kaiser.

I do think however that Tolkien was more-or-less consciously creating an anti-Siegfried, a counter to the Wagnerian portrait which JRRT I'm sure found repulsive. Wagner's hero was indeed an Ubermensch, at least in the Nietzchean if not quite the Nazi sense, an embodiment of Might Makes Right and Triumph of the Will. For Tolkien, both notions were not only wrong but extremely dangerous- as Turin's story shows.

[davem]

I don't know if Tolkien in the 50s really had the Nazis especially in mind, any more than he did when writing Lord of the Rings (when they were still around)- and of course the basic lineaments of the story go back to the old Kaiser.

I do think however that Tolkien was more-or-less consciously creating an anti-Siegfried, a counter to the Wagnerian portrait which JRRT I'm sure found repulsive. Wagner's hero was indeed an Ubermensch, at least in the Nietzchean if not quite the Nazi sense, an embodiment of Might Makes Right and Triumph of the Will. For Tolkien, both notions were not only wrong but extremely dangerous- as Turin's story shows.

Up to a point - I can almost accept - at a stretch - that the story of Numenor owes something to what was happening in Germany in the 30's/40's, but was the ubermensch in his mind to such an extent during the writing of CoH? After all, by the time of writing CoH the world had already seen the failure of the Nazi 'ideal'?

I did start a thread some time back on Tolkien & the Nazis - asking whether his desire to create a 'mythology for England' (& his subsequent statement that in that his 'crest had long since fallen') had been shattered by the use to which the Nazis had put Northern myth. It seems at least possible. National myth suddenly seemed to carry a very dangerous potential. Yet, as I say, by the time he turned to write CoH its clear that if all he was doing was attempting to show the flaw in the Nazi ideal he was pretty much preaching to the converted.

[Aiwendil]

Does this make any sense at all? The story originated in the BoLT (circa 1917), & the Narn was composed in the 1950's.

It makes very little sense as stated. However, one certainly could see the 'Narn' as a rebuttal of the 'ubermensch' in a different context. Tolkien draws, of course, on the whole body of Germanic myth concerned with Siegfried/Sigurd and the Volsungs - the same body of myth that Wagner drew on (Tolkien would probably say 'perverted') in his Ring cycle. If there's any connection between Nietzsche and the Turin saga surely it lies in the analogy between Turin and Siegfried.

[davem]

It makes very little sense as stated. However, one certainly could see the 'Narn' as a rebuttal of the 'ubermensch' in a different context. Tolkien draws, of course, on the whole body of Germanic myth concerned with Siegfried/Sigurd and the Volsungs - the same body of myth that Wagner drew on (Tolkien would probably say 'perverted') in his Ring cycle. If there's any connection between Nietzsche and the Turin saga surely it lies in the analogy between Turin and Siegfried.

You see, that makes sense, but Drout's comment doesn't. Of course, I don't see CoH simply as Tolkien sticking two fingers up at Wagner. Turin isn't simply an anti-ubermensch figure - for all his reckless pride he is a sympathetic figure, a human being. Tolkien isn't satirising, or mocking the Nazi ideal in the figure of Turin. He is showing a man whose reach exceeded his grasp. Turin constantly fails, but he fails heroically. I can't escape the feeling that Tolkien did consider Turin a hero, that he admired him for what he attempted, rather than offering him as an example of overweening pride.

[Aiwendil]

Davem wrote:
Of course, I don't see CoH simply as Tolkien sticking two fingers up at Wagner. Turin isn't simply an anti-ubermensch figure - for all his reckless pride he is a sympathetic figure, a human being.

Oh, certainly. As with most of Tolkien’s work, there many layers or shades of meaning in the ‘Narn’. Actually, I think that the Siegfried/Wagner thing is one of the less important thematic threads. But I do think it’s there. It’s as if Tolkien was fashioning a great heroic masterpiece without a thought about ubermenschen, then, by chance, he happens to think of Wagner and says, “Incidentally, this is the true spirit of those old Germanic myths, not that nonsense about supermen.”

[davem]

Aiwendil

Good review here

http://thetyee.ca/Books/2007/04/26/MiddleEarth/

In a sense, Tolkien is satirizing medieval heroic romances just as Cervantes did in Don Quixote. But Tolkien finds little to laugh at in his own hero, and much to pity. It is tempting to read The Children of Húrin as one of the first novels of World War I, transposed into a different era but presaging the destruction of a great civilization.....

Tolkien's silence in this novel is even louder. Húrin's children, for all their high birth and prowess, destroy themselves in a brutal war. The best they can offer us, like the House of Atreus and like the ignorant armies of World War I, is a warning against self-deceiving pride.

[Child of the 7th Age]

This isn't surprising but there were copies of Children of Hurin being sold on e-bay today, which Christopher Tolkien and Alan Lee had purportedly signed. One look at the signatures will tell you that they were definitely fake.. (http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Children-of-Hurin-Book-C-Tolkien-A-Lee-SIGNED_W0QQitemZ140110734458QQihZ004QQcategoryZ292 23QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) There were an even larger number of bogus bookplates "signed" by Lee and Christopher Tolkien offered for purchase (totally separate from any book).

For a rather humorous but sad discussion of these type of forgeries, which seem to be more commonplace every day, see this thread on a collecting website: here. (http://tolkienguide.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=226&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&type=&mode=0&start=0) A number of the posters on this forum are book dealers.

The family and estate has to hate this kind of thing.

[davem]

http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2007/04/26/lore_of_the_rings_is_the_lure_of_hrin/

http://media.wildcat.arizona.edu/media/storage/paper997/news/2007/04/26/Wildlife/Tolkien.Reincarnated.In.New.Release.From.Beyond.Th e.Grave-2882861.shtml

[davem]

This isn't surprising but there were copies of Children of Hurin being sold on e-bay today, which Christopher Tolkien and Alan Lee had purportedly signed. One look at the signatures will tell you that they were definitely fake.. (http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Children-of-Hurin-Book-C-Tolkien-A-Lee-SIGNED_W0QQitemZ140110734458QQihZ004QQcategoryZ292 23QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) There were an even larger number of bogus bookplates "signed" by Lee and Christopher Tolkien offered for purchase (totally separate from any book).

I think many of us saw this coming. Have to say that I wouldn't trust any of the signed items on ebay at the moment. And much of the fault should be laid at the doors of the publishers & booksellers - of course if you effectively 'dump' 450 signed bookplates in one store, & offer them on a first come first served basis, you're playing into the hands of the con men. People know there are a whole lot of the things out there, but they have no idea of who got them & whether the ones advertised are genuine or not.

I can't for the life of me see why the bookplates weren't numbered for instance, so that it would have been possible to check for duplicates.I wonder how many of these fakes will pass muster & end up being treated as genuine?

[davem]

Old one
http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2006/10/07/is_it_tolkien_or_isnt_it/

What about

As for the movie potential of ``The Children of Húrin," Hollywood is sniffing around, said Brawn. Disney, Warner Brothers, and New Line Cinema have contacted the Tolkien estate, but the estate put them off until after publication.

Hadn't seen this about specific companies, or that the Estate had put them off until after publication' before.....

[davem]

http://blog.cleveland.com/pdextra/2007/04/early_tolkien_tales_of_middlee.html

& http://www.kansas.com/473/story/54975.html

[davem]

http://www.sanluisobispo.com/402/story/27191.html

http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/local/local_story_117001335.html

[davem]

John Garth's review finally available
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2007/04/26/botol22.xml

[davem]

Think this is new

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,21624261-5003424,00.html

[Lindolirian]

I have to say that I am very excited to see this book out. Thanks for all the great review links, Dave M and everyone. Aiwendil, your little review was very helpful: just the thing I was looking for before jumping in to it.
A friend and I were looking through the introduction and were intrigued by one particular passage and perhaps our excitement and optimism has gotten the best of us, but what do you think?

It thus seems unquestionable, from my father's own words, that if he could acheive final and finished narratives on the scale he desired, he saw three "Great Tales" of the Elder Days (Beren and Luthien, the Children of Hurin, and the Fall of Gondolin) as works sufficiently complete in themselves as not to demand knowledge of the great body of legend known as The Silimarillion (10).
Is there a possibility that CoH is the first of three new publications from the Tolkien family? I imagine that with a group like these members if there were any rumblings out there about such a thing, someone here would have heard about it.

Of course, the preface continues with this note immediately after the above quote:

On the other hand, as my father observed in the same place, the tale of the Children of Hurin is integral to the history of Elves and Men in the Elder Days, and there are necessarily a good many references to events and circumstances in that larger story (10).
Does this mean that CoH is the only one he considers "big" enough to do a complete book on? Why wouldn't Beren and Luthien or the Fall of Gondolin qualify?

What are your thoughts, and what have you heard on it in out there in the world?

[davem]

Does this mean that CoH is the only one he considers "big" enough to do a complete book on? Why wouldn't Beren and Luthien or the Fall of Gondolin qualify?

What are your thoughts, and what have you heard on it in out there in the world?

No - it just means that Children of Hurin is the only one of the three Great Tales that Tolkien brought near enough to completion in a novel length version (or, let's be honest, a novella length version, given the size of the text & margins chosen for this edition) to be publishable.

There won't be any more - unless someone is authorised to write fuller versions based on the shorter accounts & notes Tolkien left - in which case they won't be genuine 'Tolkien' books, but fanfic.

CoH is all we're going to get from Tolkien's hand, sadly.

(I'm reminded of that line in 'Illuninatus!' by Shea & Wilson, about 'the original being published in heaven'....)

[davem]

Found the Mail on Sunday review that annoyed Mith so much

http://www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/viewer.aspx

(Just in case the link doesn't work, here's the text:

Tortured by Tolkien
CraigBrown
CRITIC OF THE YEAR
Afew years ago, the book dealer Rick Gekoski wrote a funny book of reminiscences called Tolkien’s Gown. In the title essay, he discussed the amazing prices commanded by J. R. R. Tolkien in the world of rare books. Apparently, a signed copy of The Lord Of The Rings can now fetch £50,000, and a signed copy of The Hobbit £75,000. Tolkien was a Professor of English Language at Oxford University, and one of Gekoski’s earliest sale-items, back in 1982, was Tolkien’s old gown, which he billed as ‘original black cloth, slightly frayed and with a little soiling’. He sold it to an American academic for a comparatively modest $1,000 but now thinks he could have got a lot more: ‘An added attraction, not evident in those innocent times, was that from one of its many DNA-rich stains one might eventually hope to clone a small army of Tolkiens, and fill a senior common room full of professors brandishing epics.’ Oddly enough, since Tolkien’s death aged 81 in 1973, he has had more new books published than he ever did when he was alive. The Father Christmas Letters came out in 1976, The Silmarillion in 1977, Unfinished Tales in 1980, The Letters in 1981, Finn And Hengest in 1982 and so on and so forth, up to Roverandom in 1998. It is almost as though Murdoch, The Dark Lord From Down Under And All-Commanding Master Of The Busy Elves Of HarperCollins, had succeeded in cloning hundreds of those little Tolkiens from that stained gown and had forced them into a hole in the ground to beaver away on new publications. Another year, another new work by J. R. R. Tolkien. The Children Of Hurin – or, to give it its full name, Narn I Chin Hurin: The Tale Of The Children Of Hurin, for with Tolkien everything has to be translated from the original gobbledegook – runs to 313 pages. These are fleshed out with a preface, an introduction, a note on pronunciation (‘U in names like Hurin, Turin, should be pronounced oo; thus “Toorin” not “Tyoorin”’), three separate genealogies, two appendices, a long, long list of names of characters and places (‘Hador Goldenhead: Elf-friend, lord of Dor-Lomin, vassal of King Fingolfin, father of Galdor father of Hurin and Huor; slain at Eithel Sirion in the Dagor Bragollach. House of Hador, one of the Houses of the Edain’), a little map, plus a the little map. The book itself has been pieced together by Tolkien’s third son and literary executor, Christopher, who is 83 years old. In his prefaces and appendices, Christopher explains how the book came to be, although, even after repeated readings, I’m still not sure I’ve managed to take it all in. From what I could gather, J. R. R. Tolkien started the book in the First World War but put it down unfinished, took it up again in the Twenties, this time in AngloSaxon verse, and then, after six years and 4,000 lines, put it down once more. Thirtyfour years after his father’s death, Christopher has knocked the various story-lines into some sort of shape, and so off we go . . .

Not nearly as funny as his review of 'Children of Quidsin' in this weeks Private Eye

[Lalaith]

Nick Lezard at the Guardian is a bit ambivalent, but he certainly knows his Tolkien:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2066919,00.html

[davem]

A Cathoic perspective

http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=106711

[davem]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Children-Hurin-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/0007263457?tag2=gp04-21

[davem]

Some more


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070428.BKTOLK28/TPStory/Entertainment


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2007/04/28/botol28.xml

[davem]

Pics of the launch in London

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/alanlee/

Is that a guy wearing a replica of the Dragon Helm, or has someone's axolotl got loose?

[Maglor]

Just finished! Care to hear some of my initial post-read impressions? If not, then too bad. ;-)

First of all, I think it's important for me to explain the context in which I read this novel (or novella, as many have labeled it). My favorite work of Tolkien's is probably The Silmarillion, though I hadn't read it in several years. After hearing news of the new book, I felt it appropriate to reread the Sil in preparation, and to simply re-adjust to Tolkien's style before CoH was released. I also bought Unfinished Tales, which I still haven't read, but am now very eager to delve into. So here's my position pre-CoH: I adore The Silmarillion, and loved Turin's tale, but was forgetful of all but the major plot points.

Long story short: I planned to read the Sil in its entirety, but due to a busy schedule I didn't through it all in time. As it turns out, I reached to midway through the Nirnaeth before I picked up CoH on its release day. Yet here was a magnificent stroke of fortune in that, inadvertently, I had set myself up for the optimum reading experience because not only were all of the names and events of the First Age fresh in my mind, but I had transitioned at the perfect point from one book to the next, as the Nirnaeth is given chapter treatment in the new book. Compounded with my hazy memory of Turin and failure to read the UT Narn, my reading experience was fresh, exciting, and rewarding.

Now for my quick-hit thoughts about the material itself:

--One of the best surprises was how the story itself is both epic as well as intimate. I love the Sil unabashedly for its sheer scope and brilliance, but rarely did its tales become overtly personal. It was told from a distance as a detached mythological tome. Now I don't fault the Sil for this, because that was exactly its purpose. But when reading CoH I was stuck by how the events, which unfolded more at the "ground level" so to speak, became more immediate. Lalaith's death due to the Evil Breath better captures Morgoth's evil than any far-reaching description of his dark magic because Turin's pain is so tangible. That said, the story still manages to create the illusion of "distance" of the Sil, as if it were a genuine lost tale of Middle-Earth. The balance between past and present is struck to perfection here.

--I've heard a few remarks about this novel being "light on characterization", but aside from a few of the arbitrary minor characters that Tolkien throws in (as he often did), I didn't really see it. (A note on those "underdeveloped" or seemingly random appearances: the inclusion of these one-and-done characters often lends a sense of true history to Tolkien's fantastical realm.). Turin has to, I think, go down as one of Tolkien's most well-developed and complex characters in all his legendarium. I needn't even mention that he is tragically flawed, but his constant struggle with his intentions over his outcomes is fascinating to see unfold. Actually, many characters in the story possess ambivalence. I was particularly impacted by the ultimate cowardice of Dorlas, the great orc-slayer, in the final chapters. A turn-around I'd never expected, but it echoes emotional realism. Overall, there exist shades of grey here to a degree that the classic LOTR doesn't match.

--A few things on the actual plot: I quite liked the idea that Turin, seemingly destined to be a great leader among men, fell to a live of wandering among various groups of clans and outlaws. That the wielder of the dreaded Black Sword remained in mystery for so long was very intriguing. Oh, here's something of note: After coming off the first 3/4 of the Sil, Thingol was portrayed as much gentler and mellower than the grumpy elitist in the Silmarillion. I quited liked the change actually; was he this way in the Narn as well?

--Alan Lee's artwork is absolutely gorgeous.

--I can clearly see how this book might be difficult for Joe Somebody fresh off LOTR wanting the next Tolkien fix. In fact, my appreciation for the work was increased exponentially by my familiarity with the Sil. I know that the intro covers many of the major events, but I imagine it would be information overload for many unsuspecting readers.

--I have a few crticisms. For one, it is too short. Can't really lay the blame on anyone for that because it obviously wasn't completed during Tolkien's lifetime, but some of the most pivotal events suffer from its brevity, notably some of the battle sequences (esp. Nargothrond, which says that the elves go into battle and are defeated in about a paragraph). The death of Beleg was also too short, but I still felt its impact due to Turin's demeanor afterward.

--Also, some of the passages seemed a bit...off to me. I was just slightly put off by the overused technique of combining five, six clauses into a single sentence. ____, and _____, and ____; and ____ ....etc. And some of the dialogue seemed strangely structured with awkward pauses and questionable syntax. Maybe this is just me though...I'd be very interested to hear if anyone else had the same feeling. In the end, though, these complaints are but minor quibbles in an overall outstanding work. I suspect some of my reactions to the dialogue was due to the overall "newness" of the thing, not knowing what to expect. And there were also some classic exchanges to make up for the awkward. I'd like to re-read the book sometime just to see how it feels the second time around, but...

--...after fully indulging one of Tolkien's "Great Tales", I am panged with hunger for feature-length versions of the others. Of course, that led to great sadness when I realized that these wonderful stories never came to fruition. What I'm really dying for is some Tuor, a real hero to offset the antiheroic qualities of the memorable Turin. Luckily I've got a fresh Unfinished Tales to devour, though I hate to imagine the disappointment when the tale cuts off abruptly at Gondolin. Oh well, I'm going for it anyway :-) . That, combined with the Sil version of Earendil's voyage should be enough to uplift and counter the utter despair of The Children of Hurin.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to add this. Gurthang speaking to Turin before death, and what it says, is one of the creepiest, most chilling things I've read:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Hail Gurthang! No lord or loyalty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee. From no blood wilt thou shrink. Wilt thou take Turin Turambar, wilt thou slay me swiftly?'

And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: 'Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly.'

[davem]

http://www.projo.com/books/content/BOOKS_TOLKIEN_04-29-07_7U5BSNQ.a6eb63.html

http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2007/4/29/lifebookshelf/17549165&sec=lifebookshelf

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2067733,00.html

[davem]

--I can clearly see how this book might be difficult for Joe Somebody fresh off LOTR wanting the next Tolkien fix. In fact, my appreciation for the work was increased exponentially by my familiarity with the Sil. I know that the intro covers many of the major events, but I imagine it would be information overload for many unsuspecting readers.

This is a criticism I've come across in a few reviews, but I'm not sure I see it. Btw, this is not a criticism of you - I think your review is very insightful.

Point being, there are many historical novels which throw names, places & events at the reader with little or no explanation. First time I read War & Peace I knew nothing about 19th century Russia, very little about Napoleon & was more than a little confused by the geography of the story. I suppose that's the case with most readers.

Most of the critics who have attacked CoH for being full of places & characters with strange names, given without full explanation or background history, would not make the same attack on Tolstoy, Homer or Cervantes - or even Dickens or Austen - for fear of being labeled ignorant. However, it seems that its fine to attack Tolkien's work in this way. I doubt they'd even level such an attack on Philip Pullman. Its another rock to throw at Tolkien - 'Don't bother with this one - you won't understand it. Of course, if you don't understand Tolstoy or Homer, its because you're dumb, but with Tolkien its because he's a bad writer.....'

[Lalaith]

I always heave a sigh when I see the headline "hobbit-forming". Particularly over reviews of CoH which doesn't *have* any hobbits.

The hard copy of the Observer review, which I have here on my breakfast table, has a big picture of the Professor sitting on a large clump of tree roots, with the caption, "JRR Tolkien in 1999." :rolleyes:

[Maglor]

This is a criticism I've come across in a few reviews, but I'm not sure I see it. Btw, this is not a criticism of you - I think your review is very insightful.

Heh...thanks. :)

Point being, there are many historical novels which throw names, places & events at the reader with little or no explanation. First time I read War & Peace I knew nothing about 19th century Russia, very little about Napoleon & was more than a little confused by the geography of the story. I suppose that's the case with most readers.

You bring up a good point, really. I won't try to defend the literary "elites" because I too believe that Tolkien is often held to a double standard. I would hope that critics of classic literature would take that into account, but we've seen time and time again that they won't.

The reason the Sil helped me tremendously is that I was already familiar with the characters and even the geography, so that I "got" all of the in-references and had to turn of the map & index in only rare occasions. I believe this set me up for a richer experience because I could roll right through the narrative with greater context and fewer interruptions.

I have no doubt that a newcomer could get through it all unscathed, but I imagine they'd surely have to consult the map and index frequently as many have had to do when first reading the Sil. Personally, I love all of the references to unexplained characters/events, but I still think it might be a struggle for a LOTR fan looking for more, especially when you consider that the introduction covers the names and events of about half the Sil in far fewer pages. Unwitting readers continue their baptism by fire when they hit the geneological first chapter. After that, though, the story picks up significantly and these things become much less of a problem.

[Bêthberry]

I had happened upon that Globe review before seeing davem's link. It seems to take Tolkien's own view of his tales, that they are not translatable into celuloid dreams. Clearly, this is someone who relishes the unique aspects of Tolkien's craft--how very apt to acknowledge this power with the phrase Tolkien old-speak. He knows something about Old English kennings methinks and makes me all the more interested in reading the book.

I suppose another reason why I like the review is that it doesn't try to mince words and excuse Tolkien from the failure of other critics to appreciate his work. For instance, I think Tolkien's "throwing out of names, places and events with little or no explanation" is quite different from most authors' styles--nothing at all like the Tolstoy, Cervantes and Homer that davem mentions--and is a challenge to readers, a deliberate challenge. First of all, said names and places derive from Tolkien's invented languages and don't look or necessarily sound like languages readers are readily familiar with. They are a deliberate way the secondary world is differentiated from the Primary World. If readers don't have the delight in word play, they won't have patience to suss this out. Second, Tolkien's names suggest the nature of historical change of language, something which the novel was not prepared to do in its early forms. (I can't say how this would relate to Homer as I don't know much at all about the intimate use of language he--or the poets--used.) How many other writers took for their subject the effects of linguistic change?

So I don't think it's a double standard as such. I think it's a failure to recognise Tolkien's very rare and unique habits as a writer. Books, they say, create their own readers. How very true in Tolkien's case.

Of course, you must realise I write this not yet having read CoH.

[davem]

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_page=1219&u_sid=2374428

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Sunday_Specials/Book_Mark/Hurin_Therapy/articleshow/1973998.cms

[davem]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/the_ticket.shtml

[Aiwendil]

Great review, Maglor - I think both your praise and criticism are more insightful than that of most of 'literary critics' (though I admit this is not saying much).

I have a few crticisms. For one, it is too short. Can't really lay the blame on anyone for that because it obviously wasn't completed during Tolkien's lifetime, but some of the most pivotal events suffer from its brevity, notably some of the battle sequences (esp. Nargothrond, which says that the elves go into battle and are defeated in about a paragraph). The death of Beleg was also too short, but I still felt its impact due to Turin's demeanor afterward.

I think you are probably quite right that the brevity of these sections is a flaw (though I still haven't purchased the book yet, I have had a quick look through it). The sections you point out are precisely the sections that Tolkien had not yet written in full form; only scattered notes and short passages of dialogue exist in the 'Narn' manuscripts for all the events between Turin's coming to Amon Rudh and his return to Dor-lomin after the fall of Nargothrond.

You may be interested to know, though, that a full account of some of these events does exist - though it was written close to thirty years before the 'Narn' and therefore differs from the later story in a few regards. I speak of the old alliterative 'Lay of the Children of Hurin' which can be found in HoMe III, The Lays of Beleriand. You may want to check this out - in particular, the details of Beleg's death and its impact on Turin are dealt with very vividly there - I think it's one of Tolkien's most moving pieces of writing.

[davem]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=134&objectid=10436820

Good one

[Maglor]

Great review, Maglor - I think both your praise and criticism are more insightful than that of most of 'literary critics' (though I admit this is not saying much).

Well, thank you. :)


You may be interested to know, though, that a full account of some of these events does exist - though it was written close to thirty years before the 'Narn' and therefore differs from the later story in a few regards. I speak of the old alliterative 'Lay of the Children of Hurin' which can be found in HoMe III, The Lays of Beleriand. You may want to check this out - in particular, the details of Beleg's death and its impact on Turin are dealt with very vividly there - I think it's one of Tolkien's most moving pieces of writing.

Thanks for the tip! I'm not sure whether you got to check out the appendix or not, but Christopher Tolkien includes a few passages of Tolkien's poetry concerning Nargothrond, and proceeds to explain how the passage (and the story) evolved into the comparatively succint final outcome.

But yes, I am most definitely interested in perusing some of HoME now...that is, after I finish the Silmarillion and the Turin-less portions of Unfinished Tales.

[Maglor]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=134&objectid=10436820

Good one

"If someone wanted to torture me with false hope, they'd start a rumour that a lost archive had just been found, deep in the bowels of some obscure university, containing a fully expanded, Lord of the Rings -style version of just one of my favourite chapters: "The Tale of Beren and Luthien", perhaps, or "The Fall of Gondolin" or "The Tale of Turin Turambar"."


^That about sums me up to a 'T' right now. CoH has whetted my appetite in a way that, sadly, cannot be satiated... :(

[Lalaith]

Most vivid moments for me in CoH -
Nienor/Niniel climbing up the mountain and suddenly coming face to face with Glaurung. Horrible.

Followed closely by the return of Turin to Dorlomin, his meeting with Labadal and Aerin, his violent murderous tantrum in the hall of Brodda.

And Hensher (grumpy Telegraph guy) is right, the reunion of Hurin and Morwen at the grave of their children *is* the most moving thing Tolkien ever wrote. Coming at the end of a complete novel as it does here, it is even more so.

[davem]

^That about sums me up to a 'T' right now. CoH has whetted my appetite in a way that, sadly, cannot be satiated... :(

To be frank, since finishing CoH I've felt increasingly annoyed that Tolkien allowed himself to get distracted by the kind of 'speculative' stuff we see in The Athrabeth, Laws & Customs among the Eldar, the 'Myths Transformed', etc. Yes, there's interesting stuff in there, but the thought that by devoting so much time & energy to such a dead end we never got completed versions of the Three Great Tales is a frustrating one - to say the least. I'd willingly lose those works if it meant seeing CoH, The Tale of Gondolin & Beren & Luthien in a completed form.

In fact, I'd go further & say that it was this very tendency to run off at tangents that dissipated his creative talent & meant that he never managed to complete The Sil at all. I honestly feel that if he had managed to complete the First Age Trilogy they would have surpassed LotR & have been the work he was remembered for.

[Anguirel]

I know Philip Hensher. He's a typical lit crit Tolkien disparager; he loves Pullman, who he thinks he discovered, hates, hates CS Lewis. He's a good novelist, I must admit. Anyway that review represents a big concession to the power of CoH. Another conflicted response - I expected him to pan it...

[davem]

Anyway that review represents a big concession to the power of CoH. Another conflicted response - I expected him to pan it...

That's what I felt too. Its as though he was impressed by the book & was struggling to admit it - even to himself. I suspect that CoH will change the way Tolkien is viewed by even some of his harshest critics - which is, I suspect, one of CT's main motivations in making it available to a general readership. This is a new kind of Tolkien novel for most people, who only know TH & LotR & consider the rest of the books published so far as either boring or unreadable. I'm absolutely certain that due to CoH Tolkien's work will be completely reassessed by the literary establishment. This is probably the single most important & significant thing CT has done.

[Maglor]

To be frank, since finishing CoH I've felt increasingly annoyed that Tolkien allowed himself to get distracted by the kind of 'speculative' stuff we see in The Athrabeth, Laws & Customs among the Eldar, the 'Myths Transformed', etc. Yes, there's interesting stuff in there, but the thought that by devoting so much time & energy to such a dead end we never got completed versions of the Three Great Tales is a frustrating one - to say the least. I'd willingly lose those works if it meant seeing CoH, The Tale of Gondolin & Beren & Luthien in a completed form.

In fact, I'd go further & say that it was this very tendency to run off at tangents that dissipated his creative talent & meant that he never managed to complete The Sil at all. I honestly feel that if he had managed to complete the First Age Trilogy they would have surpassed LotR & have been the work he was remembered for.

I have nothing to add to this but to say that I fully agree. To think of what might've been...

[davem]

I have nothing to add to this but to say that I fully agree. To think of what might've been...

You know, its maybe that I'm still under the spell of CoH - & that I haven't re-read LotR for a couple of years - but right now I have to say that CoH is by far the more powerful & significant work imo, of course.

[Maglor]

You know, its maybe that I'm still under the spell of CoH - & that I haven't re-read LotR for a couple of years - but right now I have to say that CoH is by far the more powerful & significant work imo, of course.

Heh, "the spell"...I know how you feel. I too haven't read LOTR for a few years (except the first few chapters of Fellowship several months ago), but the grandeur of the First Age tales move me in a way that LOTR did not, and not least of all being Turin's tale. Now I'm reading "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin" in UT and have loved seeing the lives of the two cousins and the undercurrents that intertwine (albeit indirectly) their fates, which fall to such polar ends.

It's funny...prior to reading I heard many people expressing their wishes that the other Great Tales receive the "CoH" treatment but I just shrugged it off because I knew they weren't nearly as far along. But now I almost finding myself thinking, "Please, Chris...anything you can scrape together!"

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Just popping in to ask if anyone has heard anything about how well CoH is selling.
I finally managed to get hold of a copy today and the clerk said that they were the last in the district to have a couple copies left. Please note that the area I live in is not known for sparkling literary discussions or book clubs, and it is a place where the library is frequented mainly for videos or internet access, but still I find myself feeling as though I was handed a huge line. Wish I had had time to delve a little deeper and find out exactly what the comment meant.

Of course it would be nice for it to be selling that well, but it seems rather unbelievable.

EDIT: Hmm...seems that Amazon has it as their #2 top seller in the US, #3 in the UK, and #4 in Canada.

[Bêthberry]

According to the Globe and Mail's National Bestsellers List of Saturday, April 28, 2007, the top selling fiction hardcover in Canada was . . . drumroll please . . . The Children of Hurin. For the first week on the list, too.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

How did the masses suddenly get such good taste? ;)

[Bêthberry]

How did the masses suddenly get such good taste? ;)

Oh, I suspect it can be attributed to a kinship of gloomy, sombre, dark, defeatist Northern spirit. It isn't for nothing that Vimy Ridge became part of the mythology. ;)

[littlemanpoet]

To be frank, since finishing CoH I've felt increasingly annoyed that Tolkien allowed himself to get distracted by the kind of 'speculative' stuff we see in The Athrabeth, Laws & Customs among the Eldar, the 'Myths Transformed', etc. Yes, there's interesting stuff in there, but the thought that by devoting so much time & energy to such a dead end we never got completed versions of the Three Great Tales is a frustrating one - to say the least. I'd willingly lose those works if it meant seeing CoH, The Tale of Gondolin & Beren & Luthien in a completed form. By way of "I told you so", ;) I mildly ask that you recall a certain thread I started once upon a time declaring that this very thing you are complaining about (rightly in my opinion) was the greatest tragedy of Tolkien's creative life; I grant you that may be an exaggeration, but it's nice that you see my point.

[Maédhros]

It's funny...prior to reading I heard many people expressing their wishes that the other Great Tales receive the "CoH" treatment but I just shrugged it off because I knew they weren't nearly as far along. But now I almost finding myself thinking, "Please, Chris...anything you can scrape together!"
It is funny, but in this Board, there is a Project that indeed have done that with the Tales of the Children of Húrin, Beren and Lúthien and the Fall of Gondolin. IMO (biased of course) the work that Findegil did in the creation of the text of the CoH, has way more detail that the work that has been published by the Estate, (even thought I don't have the book and haven't read it) since it includes parts of the Lay of Leithian.
And the Fall of Gondolin, wow, that is very nice indeed.

[littlemanpoet]

I think that Christopher has tied his own creative hands far too much. There are glaring examples of this in Turin.

[davem]

I think that Christopher has tied his own creative hands far too much. There are glaring examples of this in Turin.

There are - & I'm sure that it would have benefitted from the inclusion of elements from the Lay. However, in some ways that would have worked against his purpose - which was making his father's work available, rather than just making the story available in the best possible form.

Of course, you are right about it being one of the great tragedies of Tolkien's creative life that he got distracted into writing those 'lesser' (but still fascinating) works. Christopher has given us a glimpse of what might have been. CoH works, but its pretty clearly not what Tolkien would have given us had he managed to complete it to his satisfaction. I wonder if his reputation among the 'literati' would have been different had the First Age Trilogy been published.

Its incredibly sad that the other tales will languish mostly unread in a fuller form - well, tbh, in any form, given that most casual fans don't even attempt the Sil, let alone UT & HoM-e.

I wonder why Tolkien chose the path he took - can't help wondering how much influence his correspondents had in the post LotR period, with their constant questioning of the works theological credentials, or their pointing up of 'similarities' with Christianity. I can't help feeling that Tolkien the amateur theologian/philosopher took that path too eagerly, & that we lost probably his greatest work for that very reason.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I wonder why Tolkien chose the path he took - can't help wondering how much influence his correspondents had in the post LotR period, with their constant questioning of the works theological credentials, or their pointing up of 'similarities' with Christianity. I can't help feeling that Tolkien the amateur theologian/philosopher took that path too eagerly, & that we lost probably his greatest work for that very reason.

Yes, that is possible. Tolkien was deluged with questions in his final years and many of these (though far from all) touched upon "religious and philosophical" issues. While something like that could constitute a "distraction", I still think there is a great deal more going on than that.

The question that I keep asking is whether Tolkien still had the same ability to create when he was older that he did when he was middle aged. When he was younger Tolkien had enormous pressures on his head.....the need to produce as an academic, the money required to pay off piles of hospital bills, the time to be a good father. Despite all this, those were the most productive years of his life.

Once the money from Rings started coming in and his children grew up, some of those pressures were reduced. That was even more so in retirement when he found himself with time on his hands. Theoretically, with that huge chunk of extra time, he could have found the hours to put at least a few of his major stories into shape as well as producing something like the Athrabeth. The more basic question is this: did he still possess the star that gave him entry to faerie, or did he feel that it had slipped away? There are some authors who have that ability right up to the moment they die. Many stop writing completely, and still others continue to write but what they write lacks that inner magic that makes stories come alive . I would honestly put Tolkien in the latter category. I find Tolkien's later writings interesting for their ideas, but I do not warm to them the way I do to the magical stories of his younger years.

I don't think this was just a lack of time, answering peoples' letters about why the characters did, responding to fans' personal questions, or even getting "fixated" on religion, though all those could have played some part. (Indeed, I think an argument can be made that it was PJ's movies that gave rise to such a fascination with Tolkien's religious roots.) Many of those same letters raised questions about the First and Second Age so that they actually could have been an impetus for Tolkien to turn again to his source material and begin to write anew. Sadly he did not.

I there are two reasons for this. First, Tolkien seemed unable to pick out one story and focus on that alone. He was always jumping from one aspect of the Legendarium to another. He was so in love with Middle-earth as a whole that he couldn't focus on one part of it to the exclusion of all others. If only he had done that... If only we had a complete Tale of Gondolin, or Beren and Luthien. I think we would all trade in the later writings for that. I do feel that the process of aging separated Tolkien from faerie. Aging does change people. I have watched this happen in myself and in parents and friends. It can be painful to see. Yet this is the doom of Man, and I do not think the older Tolkien was capable of producing the same magic that the younger one did.

[davem]

I there are two reasons for this. First, Tolkien seemed unable to pick out one story and focus on that alone. He was always jumping from one aspect of the Legendarium to another. He was so in love with Middle-earth as a whole that he couldn't focus on one part of it to the exclusion of all others. If only he had done that... If only we had a complete Tale of Gondolin, or Beren and Luthien. I think we would all trade in the later writings for that. I do feel that the process of aging separated Tolkien from faerie.

Well, CT did state in an interview that in his opinion the reason his father failed to complete The Sil ws simply because he was 'too tired'. Whether he had also 'lost his fay star' is another question - in the post LotR period he began to re-write Tuor & the Fall of Gondolin, the Narn & a great deal of other M-e related stuff - not to mention Smith. Of course, he never completed Tuor, never began Beren & Luthien, & what he did finish was a lot of shorter pieces. Its entirely possible that he felt that he could never surpass LotR - consider the time & effort he put in to that. I suppose that after that he may have simply felt daunted by the thought of beginning another epic retelling.

What he did was turn to 'explaining' aspects of his secondary world. And while that added 'depth' to the creation, & produced some fascinating stuff (as well, let's admit, some of his most beautiful prose) it was not 'necessary' - Osanwe Kenta, for instance, is a very clever piece, & is clearly the result of some serious thought on M-e metaphysics, but is it actually 'necessary'. Same with the essay on the Palantiri - very clever, quite interesting in itself, but in the end what's he's actually doing in these pieces & other like them is replacing 'magic' with 'science'. All part of the process which reaches its zenith (or should that be nadir?) in the dead end of 'Myths Transformed'.

So, in the end, I think Child has a point. Of course, he knew the stories, & so could have set them down, but perhaps the vision, the inner fire, had gone. He could only re-write & touch up what he already had. Perhaps the choice was not either The Three Great Tales or The Athrabeth, Osanwe Kenta, Laws & Customs etc, but rather The Three Great Tales or LotR - by which I mean perhaps if he hadn't channelled his energies into LotR during the forties he'd have used them to complete the Sil & write the First Age trilogy.

[HerenIstarion]

If only he had done that... If only we had a complete Tale of Gondolin, or Beren and Luthien. I think we would all trade in the later writings for that

If only - many times I wished we would have had it in full, with all things explained to the last word of it.

And yet the very incompleteness (in a sense - it is not finished with as in Leaf by Niggle) is what makes the whole world more attractive [to me] - it is elusive glimpses that hint at something beyond I [probably] will never know of that brings me back. I would dearly love to see the tree, but having only a leaf, I have the leaf in higher esteem than I would have it would the whole tree be there for me to see.

My apologies if I repeat things already said or my answer is lopsided - for the fear of spoilers (since I won't have the book till late summer) I'm not reading the thread. Just could not stand temptation of peeping into it, and Child's sentence as provided in davem's quoting just caught my eye :)

[littlemanpoet]

I would have to disagree, Child. I to this day consider Smith of Wootton Major and his Beorthnoth poem, both late, very accomplished effective considering what he was trying to do with them. I think his biggest problem was depression. Plain and simple. And mostly unresolved. Feats unaccomplished were his doom, and they are in themselves cause for depression. People in the throes of depression often say they are "too tired". Consider his tendency to play endless rounds of Patience, wasting his time on something frankly vain except that it gave him minor accomplishment for "getting at least something done", and even winning often enough. It seems like it was a drug/tranquilizer that he needed to fend off the despondency of so much unfinished.

Maybe there's a chance that the Tolkien estate will, some far generation from now, open up the Legendarium to be recreated by some capable hand or hands. Who knows?

[Aiwendil]

never began Beren & Luthien

Actually, one of the first things he turned to after LotR was a revision of the Lay of Leithien. Of course, he only got as far as Beren's arrival in Doriath.

I have to say I disagree with the notion that Tolkien's creative powers were in decline after LotR. The 'Lay of Leithien recommenced', the 'Narn', 'Wanderings', 'Smith', the Annals, the later Quenta Silmarillion - in all these things I think his writing surpasses the pre-LotR texts. I do agree that, on the whole, I'd rather have a full Atanatarion than all the Athrabeths in the world; but I think the issue is one of focus rather than ability.

It also ought to be noted that fairly full pre-LotR versions of both 'Beren and Luthien' and 'The Fall of Gondolin' do exist. In both cases, numerous details differ from the later accounts, but again in both cases the overall structure of the story remained more or less the same. I do regret the fact that the post-LotR versions of these weren't finished, but I think the versions that do exist are great works of art themselves.

On a related note, there has been a lot of talk of a planned 'trilogy' of tales. It should be noted that the number of 'Great Tales' depends on how you count them. The figure of three comes, as far as I know, from a note from the 1950s given in HoMe X, in which the three tales are to be: 1. Beren and Luthien, 2. The Children of Hurin, and 3. The Fall of Gondolin and the Rise of the Star. In this scheme, the third tale clearly encompasses both 'The Fall of Gondolin' and 'The Voyage of Earendil'. It seems very unlikely to me that Tolkien would have considered the 'Atanatarion' to include all these stories but not 'The Ruin of Doriath' (which is inextricably linked to the others); for this reason, I'm inclined to think that when he wrote this note he intended 'The Children of Hurin' to include both the Turin Saga and the story of Thingol's downfall (which is, after all, ultimately a consequence of Turin's fostering). That Tolkien still intended to retell ‘The Ruin of Doriath’ on a large scale seems fairly certain, given ‘The Wanderings of Hurin’ and the proposed title ‘Sigil Elu-naeth’.

[littlemanpoet]

Whether he had also 'lost his fay star' is another questionI would surely like to find the child that has eaten that bit of cake, if you take my meaning.

And by way of response to Aiwendil's post, above, it does seem like CT's edited Children of Hurin book, that I have now finished reading, ends abuptly and should not. I was expecting Húrin to appear at Menegroth and it just didn't happen. Quite unsatisfactory.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But there was no way to have Hurin appear at Menegroth without 'editorial invention:' Tolkien pere never wrote it.

Moreover, the Narn i Hin Hurin clearly and explicitly ends with Turin's death. The Wanderings of Hurin isn't part of it, never was part of it, was never intended to be part of it. It was an abortive beginning to "The Necklace of the Dwarves."

Davem is quite right that sometimes T appears to regard Turin and Nauglamir as a single bipartite tale- but the Narn of Dirhavel stops when Turin commits seppuku.

[Aiwendil]

Davem is quite right that sometimes T appears to regard Turin and Nauglamir as a single bipartite tale- but the Narn of Dirhavel stops when Turin commits seppuku.

I quite agree. In fact, I think the new Children of Hurin ought not to have included the final meeting of Hurin and Morwen - that properly belongs to another tale.

[davem]

I quite agree. In fact, I think the new Children of Hurin ought not to have included the final meeting of Hurin and Morwen - that properly belongs to another tale.

The problem of presenting it as a stand alone tale. Hurin (& Morwen) had to be seen at the end, to round the tale off effectively. Personally, I feel the coda adds to the tale, & wouldn't be without it.

LMP I don't agree that the tale ends abruptly - it ends with Turin & Nienor's death. Certainly, there is a tendency to expect long drawn out endings to Tolkien's stories - at least a full chapter summing up the after events - but in this case I felt the ending was perfect, & that, as the tale is about the Children of Hurin & not Hurin himself, if we'd gone wandering off with Hurin the full impact of the tragedy would have been lost.

[davem]

http://www.myspace.com/childrenofhurin


Become the official Tolkien website narrator and win a Deluxe Edition of The Children of Hurin exclusively signed by Christopher Tolkien and illustrator Alan Lee

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For all you hopeful narrators out there, there will be a voting system to pick the winner and it will be split into two stages.

After submission, your efforts will be posted on the Children Of Hurin MySpace profile, where your fellow MySpacer’s can vote for their fave. The second stage sees the literary bigwigs at HarperCollins cast their vote and the winner will be chosen.

[Mithalwen]

Just popping in to ask if anyone has heard anything about how well CoH is selling.

Of course it would be nice for it to be selling that well, but it seems rather unbelievable.

EDIT: Hmm...seems that Amazon has it as their #2 top seller in the US, #3 in the UK, and #4 in Canada.


It tops the best seller lists in the Mail and the Telegraph with over 19K copies sold last week.

I am due to get my copy of Mr Baggins ere long (delayed from today's EDD alas) btw ..anyone else ordered this?

[littlemanpoet]

LMP I don't agree that the tale ends abruptly - it ends with Turin & Nienor's death.I can see ending the tale with Turin's death; it's the Hurin/Morwen ending that seems wrong. What really seems especially wrong is how Morgoth's freeing of Hurin is simply told in an overly discursive style rather than shown.

All of which is to say that CT is just too hung up on not touching his father's works at all. If a story is going to be told, it ought to be told as best it can, even if editing and revision is necessary. The lack thereof is why JRR is probably rolling in his grave that his son would publish such an under-written story as is.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed it immensely, but its weaknesses loom large and distracting. JRRT would never have let it be so, and didn't as long as he lived; too much the artist with integrity.

[Maédhros]

But there was no way to have Hurin appear at Menegroth without 'editorial invention:' Tolkien pere never wrote it.

That is not right. From the Book of Lost Tales II:Turambar and the Foalókë
Now Húrin caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of Thingol, and they murmured at that, but he said: "Are ye become as the drakes of Morgoth, that would lie and wallow in gold and seek no other joy? A sweeter life shall ye have in the court of that king of greed, an ye bear such treasury to him, than all the gold of Valinor can get you in the empty woods."
Now his heart was bitter against Thingol, and he desired to have a vengeance on him, as may be seen. So great was that hoard that great though Húrin's company might be scarce could they bear it to the caves of Thingol the king, and some 'tis said was left behind and some was lost upon the way, and evil has followed its finders for ever.
Yet in the end that laden host came to the bridge before the doors, and being asked by the guards Húrin said: "Say to the king that Húrin the Steadfast is come bearing gifts," and this was done. Then Húrin let bear all that magnificence before the king, but it was hidden in sacks or shut in boxes of rough wood; and Thingol greeted Húrin with joy and with amaze and bid him thrice welcome, and he and all his court arose in honour of that lord of Men; but Húrin's heart was blind by reason of his tormented years and of the lies of Morgoth, and he said: “Nay, O King, I do not desire to hear such words -- but say only, where is Morwen my wife, and knowest thou what death did Nienor my daughter die?” And Thingol said that he knew not.
Then did Húrin fiercely tell that tale, and the king and all his folk about him hid their faces for great ruth, but Húrin said: "Nay, had you such a heart as have the least of Men, never would they have been lost; but lo, I bring you now a payment in full for the troubles of your puny band that went against Glaurung the drake, and deserting gave up my dear ones to his power. Gaze, O Thingol, sweetly on my gifts, for methinks the lustre of gold is all your heart contains."
Then did men cast down that treasury at the king's feet, uncovering it so that all that court were dazzled and amazed – but Húrin´s men understood now what was forward and were little pleased. "Behold the hoard of Glaurung," said Húrin, "bought by the death of Nienóri with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm. Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches."
Then were Húrin's words more than Thingol could endure, and he said: "What meanest thou, child of Men, and wherefore upbraidest thou me? Long did I foster thy son and forgave him the evil of his deeds, and afterward thy wife I succoured, giving way against my counsel to her wild desires. Morgoth it is that hates thee and not I. Yet what is it to me -- and wherefore dost thou of the uncouth race of Men endure to upbraid a king of the Eldalië? Lo! in Cuiviénen my life began years uncounted before the first of Men awoke. Get thee gone, O Húrin, for Morgoth hath bewitched thee, and take thy riches with thee" -- but he forebore to slay or to bind Húrin in spells, remembering his ancient valiance in the Eldar's cause.
Then Húrin departed, but would not touch the gold, and stricken in years he reached Hithlum and died among Men, but his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men.

Changes for the better understanding of the text. The original names have been changed to the latter ones. They are in bold, in the text.

Úrin > Húrin, Tinwelint > Thingol, Melko > Morgoth, Mavwin > Morwen, Nienóri > Nienor, Glorund > Glaurung, Hisilómë > Hithlum, Palisor > Cuiviénen.

However, if one wants to be literal.
From the Book of Lost Tales II: §2. Places and peoples in the Tale of Tinúviel
The picture of Menegroth beside Esgalduin, accessible only by the bridge (The Silmarillion pp. 92 -- 3) goes back to the beginning, though neither cave nor river are named in the tale. But (as will be seen more emphatically in later tales in this book) Tinwelint, the wood-fairy in his cavern, had a long elevation before him, to become ultimately Thingol of the Thousand-Caves ('the fairest dwelling of any king that has ever been east of the Sea'). In the beginning, Tinwelint's dwelling was not a subterranean city full of marvels, silver fountains falling into basins of marble and pillars carved like trees, but a rugged cave; and if in the typescript version the cave comes to be 'vaulted immeasureable', it is still illuminated only by the dim and flickering light of torches (pp. 43, 46).
One could say that at the time of the meeting of Húrin and Thingol in Menegroth, the name Menegroth was not in existence.

[Aiwendil]

Littlemanpoet wrote:
I can see ending the tale with Turin's death; it's the Hurin/Morwen ending that seems wrong. What really seems especially wrong is how Morgoth's freeing of Hurin is simply told in an overly discursive style rather than shown.

All of which is to say that CT is just too hung up on not touching his father's works at all. If a story is going to be told, it ought to be told as best it can, even if editing and revision is necessary. The lack thereof is why JRR is probably rolling in his grave that his son would publish such a underwritten story as is.

I agree with the first part of what you say but not the second. JRRT did write a full account of Morgoth freeing Hurin and Hurin coming to Brethil ('Wanderings' in HoMe XI). But that was to be the beginning of the next tale, not the end of this one. Personally, I think CT made the right choice in not including 'Wanderings', but I think he made the wrong choice in including the short epilogue.

Maedhros: You quite correctly point out that a full account of Hurin's meeting with Thingol does exist. But I think that William Cloud Hickli's point stands - to reconcile the 'Lost Tales' text with 'Wanderings' requires a bit more editorial intervention that CT seems willing to perform.

[Lalaith]

I beg to disagree. (about not ending the book at the death of Turin)

As I think I've already said, I found the epilogue extremely effective and imo, including Hurin and Morwen after the death of the children was vital.
The book is not called Turin Turambar. It is called the Children of Hurin. They were cursed because Morgoth hated Hurin. Hurin on the high seat, forced to watch the utter effectiveness of the curse on his family - that is a fundamental basis of the story.
Any normally inquisitive reader would want to know, what happened to Hurin, did he die on that chair, or what? So the epilogue is vital. And I would have liked more, at least in the appendix if not in the novel itself. The passage just posted by Maedhros, for example.

[Maédhros]

Maedhros: You quite correctly point out that a full account of Hurin's meeting with Thingol does exist. But I think that William Cloud Hickli's point stands - to reconcile the 'Lost Tales' text with 'Wanderings' requires a bit more editorial intervention that CT seems willing to perform.
And what a shame that is. I would have really wanted to read a whole Fall of Gondolin, with the parts in Later Tuor (Unfinished Tales) and the one in the tale in the Book of Lost Tales II.
Good thing that there is a place where such story is recreated from such material. I think that most people would love to read it, even with "editorial intervention" than to not have it at all.

As I think I've already said, I found the epilogue extremely effective and imo, including Hurin and Morwen after the death of the children was vital.
The book is not called Turin Turambar. It is called the Children of Hurin. They were cursed because Morgoth hated Hurin. Hurin on the high seat, forced to watch the utter effectiveness of the curse on his family - that is a fundamental basis of the story.
Any normally inquisitive reader would want to know, what happened to Hurin, did he die on that chair, or what? So the epilogue is vital. And I would have liked more, at least in the appendix if not in the novel itself. The passage just posted by Maedhros, for example.
That is true of course. Do you really really want to read about it? There is a way that you can of course.

[littlemanpoet]

I beg to disagree. (about not ending the book at the death of Turin)

As I think I've already said, I found the epilogue extremely effective and imo, including Hurin and Morwen after the death of the children was vital.
The book is not called Turin Turambar. It is called the Children of Hurin. They were cursed because Morgoth hated Hurin. Hurin on the high seat, forced to watch the utter effectiveness of the curse on his family - that is a fundamental basis of the story.
Any normally inquisitive reader would want to know, what happened to Hurin, did he die on that chair, or what? So the epilogue is vital. And I would have liked more, at least in the appendix if not in the novel itself. The passage just posted by Maedhros, for example.But if this section needed to be there, then what happened immediately after should have been as well. The story is either unfinished with the epilogue added and no addition to the story of Hurin, or too long with the inclusion of the epilogue, for as you say it's the story of the children of Hurin, who by this time are all dead.

[davem]

Just popping in to ask if anyone has heard anything about how well CoH is selling.


Its doing very well, apparently

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/artandlife/1404AP_Books_Tolkien.html

"The Children of Hurin," which came out April 17, has topped numerous best-seller lists and Houghton Mifflin has increased its printing from 250,000 to 550,000. In Britain, copies in print have been raised from 250,000 to 360,000.

Michael Gove in the Times thinks

Children of hype

Belting along the M4 the other day, I saw a massive poster stretched across a tower block advertising the new “Tolkien” novel The Children of Hurin. It’s clear the publishers believe that they’ve unearthed a goldmine. But the key question as to whether or not his book is a success is not how big the ad spend is, but how many people will be happy to be seen with that iconic book cover under their arms, or on their laps, on our buses and in our parks. And my guess is that there won’t be many people this summer who’ll be happy to be seen toting around a volume which will mark them out as The Children of Hype.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/michael_gove/article1732466.ece

[Maglor]

You guys have been talking about the "epilogue"...

Right now, I'm not quite sure how I feel about it. I do feel that it was vital to bring the story "full circle" by informing the audience of Hurin's release and including the Morwen's poignant death sequence. But the final pages as presented I felt left a little to be desired. I didn't mind the last sequence itself; it worked well, I think. What's problematic is how we "jump" to Brethil immediately after his release with the following set-up:

"After the deaths of Turin and Nienor Morgoth released Hurin from his bondage in furtherance of his evil purpose. In the course of his wanderings, he reached the Forest of Brethil..."

Then Hurin reaches the stone. I understand that including the Wanderings poses too many problems, but I would've liked something--just a line or two even--in between to explain Hurin's mental state after release and emphasize that he had "seen" the events unfold already from atop Angband (which is merely alluded to when Hurin didn't look at the stone because he "knew what was written there").

[Maédhros]

This is totally unrealated to the subject at hand but, instead of having this:
From the Published Silmarillion: Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
And at the last by the power that Ulmo set upon them they came to the hidden door of Gondolin, and passing down the tunnel they reached the inner gate, and were taken by the guard as prisoners. Then they were led up the mighty ravine of Orfalch Echor, barred by seven gates, and brought before Ecthelion of the Fountain, the warden of the great gate at the end of the climbing road; and there Tuor cast aside his cloak, and from the arms that he bore from Vinyamar it was seen that he was in truth one sent by Ulmo. Then Tuor looked down upon the fair vale of Tumladen, set as a green jewel amid the encircling hills; and he saw far off upon the rocky height of Amon Gwareth Gondolin the great, city of seven names, whose fame and glory is mightiest in song of all dwellings of the Elves in the Hither Lands. At the bidding of Ecthelion trumpets were blown on the towers of the great gate, and they echoed in the hills; and far off but clear there came a sound of answering trumpets blown upon the white walls of the city, flushed with the rose of dawn upon the plain.
I would rather have something like this available to the reader:
Behold, the armed guardians of the gate pressed back the thronging folk that gathered about the wanderers, and one among them spake saying: ‘This is a city of watch and ward, Gondolin on Amon Gwared, where all may be free who are of true heart, but none may be free to enter unknown. Tell me then your names.’ But Voronwë named himself come hither by the will of Ulmo as guide to this son of Men; and Tuor said: ‘I am Tuor son of Huor son of Galdor of the House of Hador of the sons of the Men of the North who live far hence, and I fare hither by the will of Ulmo of the Outer Oceans.’
Then all who listened grew silent, and his deep and rolling voice held them in amaze, for their own voices were fair as the plash of fountains. Then a saying arose among them: ‘Lead him before the king.’
Then did the throng return within the gates and the wanderers with them, and Tuor saw they were of steel and of great height and strength. Now the streets of Gondolin were paved with stone and wide, kerbed with marble, and fair houses and courts amid gardens of bright flowers mounds of mallorns, birches, and evergreen trees were set about the ways, and many towers of great slenderness and beauty builded of white marble and carved most marvellously rose to the heaven. Squares there were lit with fountains and the home of birds that sang amid the branches of their aged trees, but of all these the greatest was that place where stood the King’s house, and the tower thereof on a pillared arcade was the loftiest in the city, and above it flew the banner of Fingolfin and the fountains that played before the doors shot twenty fathoms and seven in the air and fell in a singing rain of crystal: therein did the sun glitter splendidly by day, and the moon most magically shimmered by night. The birds that dwelt there were of the whiteness of snow and their voices sweeter than a lullaby of music.
On either side of the doors of the palace were the gilded images of two trees, one of gold and the other of silver, and they were in the likeness of the glorious Trees of Valinor that lit those places before Morgoth and Ungoliant withered them: and those trees the Gondolindrim named Glingal and Belthil.
Then Turgon King of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, and at his side a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. ‘Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! thy coming was foretold by Ulmo, saying that beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men whenso thou faredst hither.’ And upon the King's right hand there stood Maeglin his sister-son, but upon his left hand sat Idril Celebrindal his daughter and at the sight of her Tuor marvelled, for he had known or even seen few women in his life.
If that requires editorial addtions by CT so be it. To me it would be worth reading it.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I can see ending the tale with Turin's death; it's the Hurin/Morwen ending that seems wrong. What really seems especially wrong is how Morgoth's freeing of Hurin is simply told in an overly discursive style rather than shown.


Were it up to me (and of course it wasn't), I would have solved the problem in a manner not dissimilar to the published Silmarillion: quote the Wanderings of Hurin, complete, as far as Morwen's death. This brings in Hurin's failed attempt at Gondolin, and the irony that this attempt largely fulfills Morgoth's goal- the driving impetus of the narrative.

Whether to follow Morwen's death with anything is a different question. One might add the "cast himself into the sea" legend, skipping silently the whole Brethil/Nargothrond/Doriath business.

[Mithalwen]

If that requires editorial addtions by CT so be it. To me it would be worth reading it.


Personally, I disagree - less is sometimes more. And given that so many people are almost hysterically eager to condemn CT (something I find baffling), I am not surprised if he has taken a minimalist approach.

[Maédhros]

Personally, I disagree - less is sometimes more. And given that so many people are almost hysterically eager to condemn CT (something I find baffling), I am not surprised if he has taken a minimalist approach.
I don't think that makes much sense. You are going to get criticized no matter what. Look at this:
Exactly. We're talking about the BOOK Children Of Hurin, not the story Children Of Hurin. When I first read it I had no idea about Earendil or Mandos' prophecy and it made for very grim reading.
How many people are there who have not read the Published Silmarillion, such as he/she. The story of the Fall of Gondolin is in itself a thing of beauty. Good thing that he didn't feel that way when he published the Silmarillion, I wonder if people thought that less is more. Not for me at least.

[Maglor]

Were it up to me (and of course it wasn't), I would have solved the problem in a manner not dissimilar to the published Silmarillion: quote the Wanderings of Hurin, complete, as far as Morwen's death. This brings in Hurin's failed attempt at Gondolin, and the irony that this attempt largely fulfills Morgoth's goal- the driving impetus of the narrative. Whether to follow Morwen's death with anything is a different question. One might add the "cast himself into the sea" legend, skipping silently the whole Brethil/Nargothrond/Doriath business.

I'd have really liked to see this, actually. Include Hurin's attempt to enter Gondolin because not only does it poetically contrast the story's beginning (his stay there Huor), but, as you said, reveals Morgoth's "evil purpose" that is only vaguely mentioned in the epilogue. This is what I felt was missing--we couldn't perceive that Hurin was being manipulated and in a compromised state after his release.

Then have Morwen's death, then have Hurin casting himself into the sea...skip the whole Nargothrond/Doriath bit, it's too much to mess with for the purpose of bringing this particular tale full-circle.

[davem]

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/Children_of_Hurin_facts_figures.php

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Excellent information, thanks davem!

[Mithalwen]

I don't think that makes much sense. You are going to get criticized no matter what. Look at this:

How many people are there who have not read the Published Silmarillion, such as he/she. The story of the Fall of Gondolin is in itself a thing of beauty. Good thing that he didn't feel that way when he published the Silmarillion, I wonder if people thought that less is more. Not for me at least.


I was partly referring to prose style. The alternative you provided I found indigestible, even as a devotee of the King James Bible - there are only so many "hithers" one passage can take....

[davem]

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_reviews/article1742663.ece

[Maédhros]

I was partly referring to prose style. The alternative you provided I found indigestible, even as a devotee of the King James Bible - there are only so many "hithers" one passage can take....
I guess that you are not a fan of Tolkien's Lost Tales.
There is a difference in the prose style of the Later Tuor from 1951 and the story in The Fall of Gondolin from 1916-17. (Tuor and the Exiles of Gondolin )
From Unfinished Tales: Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin
The tale of Tuor and the Exiles of Gondolin (as "The Fall of Gondolin" is entitled in the early MSS) remained untouched for many years, though my father at some stage, probably between 1926 and 1930, wrote a brief, compressed version of the story to stand as part of The Silmarillion (a title which, incidentally, first appeared in his letter to The Observer of 20 February 1938); and this was changed subsequently to bring it into harmony with altered conceptions in other parts of the book. Much later he began work on an entirely refashioned account, entitled "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin." It seems very likely that this was written in 1951, when The Lord of the Rings was finished but its publication doubtful. Deeply changed in style and bearings, yet retaining many of the essentials of the story written in his youth, "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin" would have given in fine detail the which legend that constitutes the brief 23rd chapter of the published Silmarillion, but, grievously, he went no further than the coming of Tuor and Voronwë to the last gate and Tuor's sight of Gondolin across the plain of Tumladen. To his reasons for abandoning it there is no clue.

It is thus the remarkable fact that the only full account that my father ever wrote of the story of Tuor's sojourn in Gondolin, his union with Idril Celebrindal, the birth of Eärendil, the treachery of Maeglin, the sack of the city, and the escape of the fugitives – a story that was a central element in his imagination of the First Age – was the narrative composed in his youth. There is no question, however, that that (most remarkable) narrative is not suitable for inclusion in this book. It is written in the extreme archaistic style that my father employed at that time, and it inevitably embodies conceptions out of keeping with the world of The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion in its published form. It belongs with the rest of the earliest phase of the mythology, "the Book of Lost Tales": itself a very substantial work, of the utmost interest to one concerned with the origins of Middle-earth, but requiring to be presented in a lengthy and complex study if at all.

The problem of putting the two texts together as CT points out is that the earlier version has an archaic style, with respect to the Later Tuor account in Unfinished Tales. The point is that: Is the composition of a full "readable" text of the Tale of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin up to the escape of the fugitives, to be published as a separte work, such as the CoH, regardless with more editorial alterations because of the archaic elements in the earlier tale (and to have a single style prose style of Later Tuor), would that not better than not at all? How many people will not ever know of this story, such as the CoH, if CT had not published it this year? To me, the positives far outweight the negatives, even though this is a moot point because CT probably will never do it.

[davem]

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_JDPPPSD&ppv=1

[davem]

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main30.asp?filename=hub120507The_road.asp

[Mithalwen]

I guess that you are not a fan of Tolkien's Lost Tales.
There is a difference in the prose style of the Later Tuor from 1951 and the story in The Fall of Gondolin from 1916-17. (Tuor and the Exiles of Gondolin )
From Unfinished Tales: Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin



I am afraid that I was defeated by the Lost Tales when I bought them when they were first released in paperback - my first four volumes of HOME are from the first paperback release, the rest from the 2002 reissue... it perhaps wasn't the best time since I started my degree with a 60 volume reading list and the realisation that outside linguistics class Tolkien was not approved of. I do hope to have another go but while I have read most of most of the later volumes I haven't quite plucked up the courage to reopen Lost Tales.

I adore UT though - my favourite volume of Tolkien on the whole.

Don't get me wrong, I am so glad that HoME has made so much available, and the prospect of finding out more about Idril (surely Tolkien's most admirable female character ) is a big incentive to have another go with LT, but I have to say I think CT's judgement was sound.

Not a fan hmm.... I cannot answer accurately yes or no . Many of the phrases are lovely in isolation but on top of each other .... well it is the difference between a long G&T and swigging Gordon's from the bottle a la Hogarth - one is a delightful prospect the other horrific - so does that make me a fan of gin or not? :cool:

[Maédhros]

Don't get me wrong, I am so glad that HoME has made so much available, and the prospect of finding out more about Idril (surely Tolkien's most admirable female character ) is a big incentive to have another go with LT, but I have to say I think CT's judgement was sound.

Not a fan hmm.... I cannot answer accurately yes or no . Many of the phrases are lovely in isolation but on top of each other .... well it is the difference between a long G&T and swigging Gordon's from the bottle a la Hogarth - one is a delightful prospect the other horrific - so does that make me a fan of gin or not?
I was not really a fan of the styles of those stories either, but the Cottage of Lost Play really won me over, and since has become my favorite Tolkien story of them all. I guess it has something of a je ne sais quoi quality. The poetry in Bolt I just find it amazing.
You should give it another try. I mean for someone like me, whose English is not his first language, can do it. I'm sure that it would be way easier for you.

[davem]

I was not really a fan of the styles of those stories either, but the Cottage of Lost Play really won me over, and since has become my favorite Tolkien story of them all. I guess it has something of a je ne sais quoi quality. The poetry in Bolt I just find it amazing.
You should give it another try. I mean for someone like me, whose English is not his first language, can do it. I'm sure that it would be way easier for you.

I have a soft spot for BoLT. Strikes me that's another all but complete work which CT could put out without too much editorial intervention - along with colour plates & illuminated lettering - like one of those Edwardian fairy story collections.

[Formendacil]

I have a soft spot for BoLT. Strikes me that's another all but complete work which CT could put out without too much editorial intervention - along with colour plates & illuminated lettering - like one of those Edwardian fairy story collections.

My broken leg having kept me from more adventurous activities, I've been reading a lot lately, and having finished The Children of Húrin, I've been rereading the HoME, in particular the "Lost Tales", so I'm particularly curious to hear how you would put out a "complete work without too much editorial intervention".

I suppose, of course, that "too much" is a subjective term, and means different things, but there are some very major difficulties, as I see it, to putting out such a book.

First, and foremost, is that the thing isn't complete. As Christopher Tolkien says in the commentary parts, the "Lost Tales" are missing a chunk of their middle (Gilfanon's Tale, or the history from the crossing of the Helcaraxë till the Battle of Unnumbered Tears), and the end. The whole Tale of Eärendel is missing.

Similarly, the "Links" or the Eriol parts of the "Lost Tales" are incomplete. In the "Cottage of Lost Play" and in the "Links" we have a buildup towards his receiving limpë, and there is a narrative-- but it is never resolved. Would you then publish a tale that is unresolved?

There are also several matters of internal cohesion to be resolved, such as the consistency of names (the text in the HoME is already one that Christopher Tolkien has made more consistent), or things such as the Elf/Man nature of Beren, and other things of this nature. Personally, I would say these matters are easily dealt with, and would truly require a minimum of editorial intervention, but the much larger issue of an incomplete tale is rather serious.

[Aiwendil]

I have a soft spot for BoLT. Strikes me that's another all but complete work which CT could put out without too much editorial intervention - along with colour plates & illuminated lettering - like one of those Edwardian fairy story collections.

I'm rather fond of the Lost Tales as well, though as Formendacil quite correctly points out, they are quite incomplete. Personally, I think that one of the greatest tragedies arising from Tolkien's tendency to leave things unfinished is the fact that he never wrote the Tale of Earendel (or Tales, as it was supposed to consist of seven or so sections, making it almost as long again as the whole work up to that point). 'Earendil' is of course the only Great Tale that was never told in long form.

I have sometimes been tempted to try and write a 'Tale of Earendil' myself, though I hesitate even to mention it, considering Davem's views (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=13905) on 'other stories' . . .

[davem]

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/features/story.asp?ID=188030

And the Observer would like to apologise for its mistake last week:


"We repeated a picture agency error in a caption on a photograph of JRR Tolkein which accompanied our review of The Children of Hurin (Books, last week). We said the picture dated from 1999, but Tolkein died in 1973. The picture was taken in 1971."

Always nice when a newspaper admits their mistakes.....now about 'Tolkein'....

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2073557,00.html

EDIT

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/05/06/in_the_beginning_/

Interesting one - what shall we make of the 'Blakean' connection?

[davem]

Now this is worth keeping up with. A Michael Moorcock forum discussing CoH - Moorcock says he's going to read it. Should be interesting to see what he makes of it..;.

http://www.multiverse.org/fora/showthread.php?t=5345

also

http://www.booklore.co.uk/PastReviews/TolkienJRR/TheChildrenOfHurin/TheChildrenOfHurinReview.htm

[Lalaith]

....your PM box has been full for days!
Yes, I'd love to see the version of CoH....

[davem]

http://www.livemint.com/2007/05/05005011/Another-hellraiser-from-Middle.html

[William Cloud Hicklin]

http://www.booklore.co.uk/PastReviews/TolkienJRR/TheChildrenOfHurin/TheChildrenOfHurinReview.htm

At last- an honest negative! "I didn't enjoy it because it's too dense and complicated for me, but others may differ." Would that the professional sneerers had half so much integrity!

[Mithalwen]

[url]
Always nice when a newspaper admits their mistakes.....now about 'Tolkein'....




Well Dave, what do you expect - "The Observer" is effectively " The Grauniad on Sunday"

[Maédhros]

....your PM box has been full for days!
Yes, I'd love to see the version of CoH....
Sorry, please check your pm box now.

[davem]

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/Kinderen-van-Hurin-big-success.php

And this one has been linked to from TOR.n, but its maybe useful to have all the links together here

http://czytaj.elendili.pl/2007/05/06/the-children-of-hurin-compared-with-the-silmarillion-unfinished-tales-and-home/

[davem]

John D Rateliff's blog has some nice stuff on CoH
http://sacnoths.blogspot.com/search/label/%22The%20Children%20of%20Hurin%22

[davem]

http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s4i18567

http://www.librarything.com/work.php?book=14776668

[davem]

http://www.christianfictionreview.com/?review=371

[davem]

Harper Collins have a Browse inside feature for CoH - http://www.harpercollins.co.uk/books/default.aspx?id=36893

[Child of the 7th Age]

A link to download a 20-minute audio interview with Alan Lee, in which he discusses the illustrations in C of H and how he created them. Here. (http://www.ozcomics.com/In-Conversation/40.html)

[davem]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/13/books/review/13tbr.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[davem]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=a8FeNcObAEGU&refer=home

http://www.newindpress.com/sunday/sundayitems.asp?id=SEB20070511053020&eTitle=Books+%26+Literature&rLink=0

http://www.bookreporter.com/reviews2/0618894640.asp

[davem]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18628570/site/newsweek/

[davem]

http://www.pennlive.com/entertainment/expresstimes/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/1179029195242930.xml&coll=2

http://www.theopraxis.net/archives/2007/04/the_children_of.html

http://www.sideshowtoy.com/behindtheshow/?page_id=2994

http://www.uksfbooknews.net/2007/05/13/birmingham-tolkien-festival-19-to-20-may-2007/

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/32571\

http://www.cosmicconservative.com/weblog/?p=1958

[Bêthberry]

Well, I received CoH as a gift yesterday, so I guess I'll be getting around to looking at all those links shortly.

It's a handsome looking book indeed and I find CT's own style in the intro very interesting.

[davem]

http://enterthedoorwithin.blogspot.com/2007/05/review-children-of-hurin.html

http://coyotemercury.com/blog1/2007/05/15/the-children-of-hurin/

http://ambernight.org/archives/2007/05/14/400

[davem]

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/reviews/article2554613.ece

http://www.smh.com.au/news/book-reviews/the-children-of-hurin/2007/05/18/1178995388317.html

[Bêthberry]

I got a good laugh out of this line from Boyce's review in The Independent:


It's a prequel in the sense that a book about neolithic traders of the Dorset coast is a prequel to Persuasion.


I wish I were a ten year old who had an entire day and a half in which to do nothing but read.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

II wish I were a ten year old who had an entire day and a half in which to do nothing but read. I'm with you there! So hard to find a chunk of time larger than 15 minutes in which to bury oneself in a good book. And Tolkien is such a wonderful writer, isn't he? Amazing how regardless of the style, he is capable of transporting a person far away. You feel the cold and smell the rain...and imagine the hot humid stench of Glaurung's breath.

[davem]

http://reformedpastor.wordpress.com/2007/05/19/tolkiens-final-triumph/

Also, there's a short review by Tom Shippey in this week's Times Literary Supplement (not on line yet), & another short one in this month's SFX magazine.

[Aiwendil]

I finally bought it. Not sure if these points regarding the cover art have been mentioned yet:

- The Dragon-helm doesn't appear to have a visor (it is supposed to).

- The picture has Turin wearing the Dragon-helm and also holding a black sword, which must of course be Anglachel/Gurthang. But in this version of the story he loses the Dragon-helm after the battle at Amon Rudh, whereas (in all versions) he doesn't acquire Anglachel until his rescue from the Orcs; so he shouldn't have both at the same time.

- Surely the picture on the back cover (and again between the title page and chapter 1) is Beren and Luthien being borne to Doriath by the eagles. What has this to do with the Turin saga?

[davem]

This is one of the best reviews I've come across

http://superversive.livejournal.com/49730.html

[Findegil]

About the picture at the backside of the dustcover: It is not Beren and Lúthien that are born by the eagles. The picture shows Húrin and Huor when they are brought to Gondolin.

Good observation that Túrin has in the story as presented never Helm and sword at on time. (It is a nice detail that the picture would fit our version with Túrin waering the Helm at the Fall of Nargothrond and when he set out kill Glaurung.)

That the helm has no visor was mentioned before. Overall nice pictures, but when it comes to details one can allway find some faults.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Bêthberry]

This is one of the best reviews I've come across

http://superversive.livejournal.com/49730.html

Just for the sake of discussion, care to elaborate on why you think this is one of the best?

EDIT: Fascinating that the Reformed Pastor (in the link which davem gives in post #392 above) links to this thread's list of reviews.

[davem]

Just for the sake of discussion, care to elaborate on why you think this is one of the best?

Well, for one thing, most of the reviews I've seen so far have had little original to say. There are probably no more than a dozen really good ones I've come across - ones with something significant to say. I think this reviewer has real insight into what Tolkien was doing, & demolishes a couple of the sillier reviews. What's interesting is that this guy is a Catholic, & one would think that as such he'd play up the 'bigger picture' argument - seeing CoH in the context of the Legendarium, & drawing in the 'eucatastrophic' fall of Morgoth - as certain of my 'opponents' in the Turin the Hopeless thread did:

Who, then, is morally simplistic, or childish, or escapist? Is it the great authors of the last century — Tolkien, Orwell, Vonnegut, Burgess, to name only a few — who dressed up human wickedness in fairy-tale costumes so that we could bear to look upon it and call it by its name? Or the academics and critics, the Modernists and Postmodernists, who refused to look and pretended it did not exist? It takes a peculiar and wilful blindness to accuse Tolkien of moral puerility, or to read him without seeing the deadly seriousness of the issues his fantasies raise. The Children of Húrin is Tolkien at his darkest, Tolkien looking into the abyss; and I find it deeply disturbing that none of his enemies and few of his friends seem capable of grasping the fact.

This is another very good piece on Tolkien by Simon http://superversive.livejournal.com/47255.html#cutid1

[Bêthberry]

Yes, I think you are right; Simon's review does Tolkien the honour of treating him as an artist and discussing the work as a creation. I was initially put off by his opening gambit of that old canard of the academic critics who naysay Tolkien, but pleasantly impressed with his bookend about gushing fans.

For my reading, I find Hurin more interesting and compelling than The Silm. Perhaps because the characterizations are more closely developed with the theme of fate, perhaps because the malice of Morgoth is dramatised more, perhaps because Tolkien has for me captured that entire world view which I find so fascinating in Beowulf, fatalism, dustsceawung. Rarely has a story explored so relentlessly the nature and foibles of human pride.

Interesting too, what Simon says--ha ha--that only in fantasy could we look upon the face of evil.

[davem]

... perhaps because Tolkien has for me captured that entire world view which I find so fascinating in Beowulf, fatalism, dustsceawung. Rarely has a story explored so relentlessly the nature and foibles of human pride.
.

What Simon said about Tolkien looking into the Abyss struck me. He does, & I think its significant that there is virtually no detailed description of the Elvish glories of either Menegroth or Nargothrond. the bleak landscape of Amon Rudh & environs is given more focus, as is Brethil & Turin's childhood home in Dor Lomin. The wild, uninhabited regions are painted in more detail than the islands of civilisation, & its as if they are far more 'real', while the Elven realms are transitory, almost like dreams. The absence of any kind of 'glorious' victory is also of great significance Turin may defeat his foes but there is no sense of a more than transitory victory. Its as if right from the start we are being told not to hope for any good outcome.

On a side note, the more I consider it, the more I feel that Lee's paintings are a mistake. A couple of them show the Elven realms, & I'm not sure they don't make them seem too 'real' & solid. Also, I'm not sure that a work like this should have colour paintings at all. Perhaps they should have stuck to the pencil illustrations that top & tail the chapters. Another option would have been the 'woodcut' effect illustrations used in the Folio Society Hobbit, LotR & Sil

http://www.foliosoc.co.uk/folio/books/Fraser_Tolkien.jpg

http://www.hobbit.ca/Silmarillion2003folio-illustration.jpg

[Mithalwen]

Just a note to say that The Children of Hurin is still top of the Hard back fiction lists outselling Wilbur Smith, Joanne Harris, Ian McEwan..... :D

[Bêthberry]

Another option would have been the 'woodcut' effect illustrations used in the Folio Society Hobbit, LotR & Sil

davem, who did those illustrations and what are the dates of the publications?

For comparison, here's a link to British Museum's website, with pictures and descriptions of the King's Helm, Sutton Hoo (http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/obj3920.html). Apparently it was decorated with a dragon, among other items. Make sure you check out the replica, too, as well as the reconstructed helm.

The original helm was found crushed into hundreds of pieces; several reconstructions have been made. I recall being quite surprised at the small size when I saw it.

[davem]

davem, who did those illustrations and what are the dates of the publications?

More from the Folio Society site
http://www.foliosoc.co.uk/folio/tolkien.php

Couple of points. Ingahild Grathmer, who did the original illustrations which Eric Fraser re-drew for LotR & TH, is actually Queen Margrethe II of Denmark. Fraser also painted the cover for the Radio Times back in 1981, to promote the Radio Adaptation of LotR http://www.briansibley.com/Broadcasts/RingGoesEverOn.htm. For some reason the British Folio Society no longer publish The Sil.

[davem]

Some interesting thoughts on the curse in this blog

http://bethsperaindomino.blogspot.com/2007/05/children-of-hurin-book-review.html

[davem]

http://drvector.blogspot.com/2007/05/dr-vector-reviews-children-of-hurin.html

http://www.hergenraders.com/wordpress/?p=752

[davem]

http://www.anwyn.com/2007/04/18/tolkiens-children-of-hurin/#comments

[davem]

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/entertainment/books/7661401.html

[Sir Kohran]

I was intrigued by the idea of a 'First Age Trilogy' - I assume there would be Beren And Luthien, The Children Of Hurin and The Fall Of Gondolin/The War Of Wrath. Sadly Tolkien never got round to publishing this idea, but with the release of the COH, could we now see the other two 'great tales' in print too?

[davem]

I was intrigued by the idea of a 'First Age Trilogy' - I assume there would be Beren And Luthien, The Children Of Hurin and The Fall Of Gondolin/The War Of Wrath. Sadly Tolkien never got round to publishing this idea, but with the release of the COH, could we now see the other two 'great tales' in print too?

Can't see it happening. Alex Lewis did 'construct' a version of The Tale of Gondolin some years back, but it doesn't seem likely to see a wider audience than those who have bought the limited (50 in number) edition. Lewis got verbal permission from Priscilla Tolkien to publish that edition (don't think Christopher knew she'd given that permission). From reports I've seen its a readable enough version, but it has nothing like CT's Intro & Appendices for CoH. Lewis removed some of the 'archaisms' from some of the early versions he used, but its basically a sticking together of various versions Tolkien wrote. Unlike CoH there is no 'novel' (or 'novella') length version of the Tale that could be published. Same goes for Beren & Luthien.

So, that's not to say that it wouldn't be possible to knock something up. Its just it wouldn't really be 'Tolkien'.

I suppose it could be argued (with some justification perhaps) that CT took a wrong turn when he chose to follow up The Sil with Unfinished Tales & HoMe, rather than CoH & then to re-construct & complete the other Tales. After reading CoH I'm leaning towards that position myself. Much of HoM-e is fascinating, but none of it is as powerfully affecting as CoH in the form we now have it.

Back to the original question, though, who would write (or construct) the versions of the other two tales? I can only think of CT - & I don't think he's up for it.

[Maédhros]

Lewis removed some of the 'archaisms' from some of the early versions he used, but its basically a sticking together of various versions Tolkien wrote. Unlike CoH there is no 'novel' (or 'novella') length version of the Tale that could be published. Same goes for Beren & Luthien.

So, that's not to say that it wouldn't be possible to knock something up. Its just it wouldn't really be 'Tolkien'.

I disagree. If Lewis used writtings from JRRT and didn't invent anything into his tale, why wouldn't it be Tolkien. It doesn't makes sense.

[Formendacil]

I disagree. If Lewis used writtings from JRRT and didn't invent anything into his tale, why wouldn't it be Tolkien. It doesn't makes sense.

Davem's talking about length. The Lewis tale, based on Tolkien, wouldn't be substantially longer than the Book of Lost Tales "Fall of Gondolin", and that isn't nearly comparable to the Children of Húrin's length. Likewise, the longest official compilation of "Beren and Lúthien" wouldn't be nearly long enough.

Ergo, if you want to produce a trilogy... you'd have two very slim volumes going with The Children of Húrin.

[davem]

I like Tom Simon's idea http://superversive.livejournal.com/47255.html#cutid1
At one time, indeed, rumour said that it would be released in four volumes, and that might have been the better approach. A very successful version might have been constructed with one volume dedicated to each of the four great tales, and the earlier history of the Eldar and the Silmarils brought in gradually as backstory. The history of Fëanor would have been a logical annexe to the tale of Beren and Lúthien. The Valaquenta and the early wars of the Valar against Morgoth would have fitted well with the tale of Túrin, since ‘in it are revealed most evil works of Morgoth Bauglir’. The story of the Nauglamír (or Nauglafring) was explicitly intended as the opening section of the Tale of Eärendil; and so on. Then each book would have had a sympathetic protagonist, and a hook upon which to hang a more or less novelistic structure; and they would also have retained some of the enchantment of remote vistas that Tolkien recognized to be so powerful an attraction in The Lord of the Rings:

Though I'm not sure a fourth volume about the Voyage of Earendel & the Fall of Morgoth would have been necessary - those events could have formed an Epilogue to the Gondolin book - not every significant event in M-e history needs to be told in full length (cf the Last Alliance/Fall of Sauron). The Nauglafring/Fall of Doriath could have been included in the Beren & Luthien volume.

But therein lies another problem in starting to put out new works based on Tolkien's writings - the whole franchise thing. Look at the number of Star Wars/Star Trek nevels out there. Authorise another writer or writers to pick up the baton & where do you stop?

Sadly, there isn't, & cannot be, a Beren & Luthien or Tale of Gondolin novel by JRR Tolkien - & who'd really be happy if any other writer took over? Look at the arguments over the director of a Hobbit movie?

Nope - I'd love to have Beren & Luthien & The Fall of Gondolin from the hand of Tolkien. I'd also like a copy of the First Ed. of The Hobbit with a personalised dedication to me from JRRT, & a signed statement from him confirming Balrogs do not have wings - but the former are as impossible to get as the latter. I think we just have to regretfully accept that the First Age Trilogy will never see the light of day - not from Tolkien's hand anyway. And as I asked earlier - who would you trust to write new versions?

[ianintheuk]

Well I think there is a possibility of a FIRST AGE TRILOGY, I have for some time been working on such a text (for my own amusement I must add) and since the announcement of the publication of The Children of Hurin have worked more to compile the “missing” tales.

I have at present completed a version of the FALL OF GONDOLIN which incorporates the whole tale of Gondolin from its founding thru’ to the War of Wrath. This was done to include the story of Maeglin so that the whole narrative could be found (to us CJRT’s words) between the covers of one volume. I have included all texts a from HOME, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales that are relevant and edited it into one (approx) style, but have not introduced any new elements on non JRRT text.


Since the publication of The Children of Hurin I have set this text to mimic the published book (i.e. using the same font size, page size and layout) this has resulted in a book of 322 pages chaptered as follows

Contents

Preface

THE FALL OF GONDOLIN

THE EXILE FROM AMAN AND THE FOUNDING OF GONDOLIN 17

AREDHEL, EOL AND MAEGLIN 24

HURIN AND HUOR 41

NIRNAETH ARNOEDIAD 47

THE YOUTH OF TUOR 62

THE WORDS OF ULMO 78

THE STEADFAST MARINER 91

THE JOURNEY TO THE HIDDEN CITY 103

THE GATES OF GONDOLIN 121

TUOR AND TURGON 134

IDRIL AND TUOR 143

THE CAPTURE OF MAEGLIN 151

THE FALL OF GONDOLIN 162

THE EXILES OF GONDOLIN 207

OF EARENDIL AND THE WAR OF WRATH 220

APPENDIX 245

NOTES 247
THE PROBLEM OF ROS 259
INDEX OF NAMES 278
GEANEALOGIES 317


As you can see I have included a preface and Appendix more or less in line with the published COH.

I am still working on my version of BEREN AND LUTHIEN and trying to decide if it should end with the plea of Luthien or should also include the ruin of Doriath.
My idea is to use the Lat of Lethien and transliterate this into prose.

If anyone is interested I will post this once its finished.

[davem]

http://drvector.blogspot.com/2007/05/children-of-hurin-reviewedby-morons.html

[davem]

http://www.inchoatus.com/Critical%20Essays/The%20Children%20of%20Hurin%20Jeff%20GIles%20of%20 EW%20is%20a%20Gibbering%20Idiot.htm

[davem]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/features/orl-tolkienbook07may28,0,3486220.story?page=1&coll=orl-shopping-headlines

And a message for writers & publishers of fantasy

http://superversive.livejournal.com/49083.html

[davem]

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/The_Children_of_Hurin_Audiobook.php

So Christopher Lee is to read this unabridged version........

[davem]

Very good review in this month's DeathRay magazine.

Also

http://www.hindu.com/lr/2007/06/03/stories/2007060350350300.htm

[davem]

If you haven't seen if via the TOR.n link
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fopinion%2F2007%2F06%2F04%2Fdo040 5.xml#9512571522693538744

[narfforc]

Hurim and Turim, he should have read the book slowly.

[Anguirel]

Such a good article marred by such a sloppy error - entirely typical of AN Wilson. High wages and adulation do that to a writer...

[davem]

http://rmfo-blogs.com/cozart/archives/2007/06/08/the-children-of-hurin-by-jrr-tolkien/

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=120079784&blogID=274074914

[davem]

More on the audio book. http://www.harpercollins.co.uk/books/default.aspx?id=37173.

7 CD's. :eek:

[Mithalwen]

Christopher Lee is such a good choice - wonderful voice and a genuine Tolkien fan.

[davem]

http://network.nature.com/blogs/user/U9556F6A5/2007/05/25/hurin-turin-schmurin

[davem]

http://www.rte.ie/arts/2007/0521/drivetimewithdave_av.html?2250438%2C242%2C209#5495 316476836781993

Interview on RTE radio - couple of Tolkien 'experts' getting stuff wrong, clip from the movie, clip of Tolkien & even some of Leonard Nimoy's Ballad of Bilbo Baggins...

[Lalaith]

The AN Wilson article - loved it, but a sloppy error, indeed.

May not be his fault though, could be the sub-editors. Even if Wilson had made the error, the subs should really have picked it up, anyway. *Tsk* What is the Telegraph coming to.

[davem]

http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/the_children_of_hurin/

[Nogrod]

I know Lommy promised to give in a short quote from the Finninsh version of the CoH to Davem but now as she will be away in the countryside for a couple of weeks and I have the translated version here I might go on and fulfill her promise - adding the original Finnish version from the same scene from Kalevala just for curiosity.

So this is the death of Túrin / Kullervo. I can't give the first words from the English original as my daughters took it away with them as Lommy's little sis will wish to read it on their holiday but this is from the end of the last chapter Túrin's death, from after the last words of Túrin to Mablung where he says that he has been blind and calls for them to leave him and to go back to Doriath - and cursing both their trip and Menegroth itself. The preceding paragraph ends with the words "the night is falling".

From the Finnish version of the CoH.

Ja nyt hän pakeni heidän luotaan kuin tuulispää ja heidät täytti ihmetys ja pelko. Mutta Mablung sanoi: "Jotain kauheaa ja outoa on tapahtunut, josta me emme mitään tiedä. Seuratkaamme häntä ja auttakaamme jos voimme sillä hän on mieltä vailla ja hakee kuolemaa."

Mutta Túrin kiiruhti heidän edellään ja tuli Cabed-en-Arasille ja seisoi siinä; hän kuuli veden ärjynnän ja näki, että kaikki puut olivat kärventyneet ja niiden kuivat lehdet putoilivat murheellisesti ikään kuin olisi tullut talvi kesken kesän päivien.

"Cabed-en-Aras, Cabed Naeramarth!" hän huusi. "Minä en saastuta vesiäsi, jotka huuhtovat Nínielin pois. Sillä kaikki tekoni ovat olleet pahat, ja pahin viimeinen."

Ja hän veti esiin miekkansa ja sanoi: "Terve Gurthang, kalman rauta, vain sinä yksin olet jäljellä! Onko sinulla muuta herraa kuin käsi, joka sinua käyttelee? Et kavahda kenekään verta. Otatko siis Túrin Turambarin? Surmaatko minut sukkelaan?"

Ja terästä kuului kylmä ääni vastaukseksi: "Mieluusti juon vertasi unohtaakseni herrani Belegin veren ja syyttä surmatun Brandirin veren. Sukkelaan surmaan sinut."

Silloin Túrin löi kahvan maahan ja heittäytyi Gurthangin terään ja musta miekka otti hänen henkensä.

Now about the same thing in Finnish Kalevala happens after Kullervo after learning his deed with her sister and her fate has returned to his old homeplace and finds everything deserted and empty and then his mother's voice from the grave tells him to go to the wild and search for the maidens of the forest to take care of him - like going back to Nargothrond where it would be safe. And Kullervo like Túrin declines the offer.

In Finnish Kalevala it is told this way.

Kullervo, Kalervon poika,
Otti koiransa keralle,
Läksi tietä telkkimähän,
Korpehen kohoamahan;
Kävi matkoa vähäisen,
Astui tietä pikkaraisen,
Tuli tuolle saarekselle,
Tuolle paikalle tapahtui,
Kuss' oli piian pilannunna,
Turmellut emonsa tuoman.

Siin itki ihana nurmi,
Aho armahin valitti,
Nuoret heinät hellitteli,
Kuikutti kukat kanervan
Tuota piian pillamusta,
Emon tuoman turmelusta,
Eikä nousnut nuori heinää,
kasvanut kanervankukka,
Ylennyt sijalla sillä,
Tuolla paikalla pahalla,
Kuss' oli piian pilannunna,
Emon tuoman turmellunna.

Kullervo, Kalervon poika,
Tempasi terävän miekan,
Katselevi, kääntelevi,
Kyselevi, tietelevi;
Kysyi mieltä miekaltansa,
Tokko tuon tekisi mieli
Syöä syyllistä lihoa,
Viallista verta juoa.

Miekka mietti miehen mielen,
Arvasi uron pakinan,
Vastasi sanalla tuolla;
"Miks' en söisi mielelläni,
Söisi syyllistä lihoa,
Viallista verta joisi?
Syön lihoa syyttömänki,
Juon verta viattomanki."

Kullervo, Kalervon poika,
Sinisukka äijön lapsi,
Pään on peltohon sysäsi,
perän painoi kankahesen,
Kären käänti rintahansa,
Itse iskihe kärelle,
Siihen surmansa sukesi,
Kuolemansa kohtaeli.

Shortly and not actually translated but just described...

The first paragraph:
Kullervo, son of Kalervo took his dog with him and went to the wilds. After a short trek he came to the place where he had "marred the maid, spoiled the one her mother had brought to a life".

The second:
The grass was wailing and the flowers were groaning for the misdeed. No young grass would grow or heaths blossom there as it was a dark place where the maid had been marred, the one mother had brought a life was spoiled.

The third:
Kullervo takes his sword and looks at it, turns it around and asks it questrions and thinks. Asking then from it whether it would eat the guilty flesh, drink the vile blood?

The fourth:
The sword thought about the mind of the man, getting into what he was thinking. answered with the words: "Why shouldn't I eat gladly, eat the guilty flesh and drink the vile blood? I eat the flesh of innocents and drink the blood of those with no vice as well."

The fifth:
Kullervo, son of Kalervo set the hilt of the sword to the ground and brought the edge of it to his chest. He threw himself to the sword. There he met his death.


So no Glaurung here but things at the level of structure, minor details and motive bearing a lot of resemblances indeed.

[davem]

Thank you so much.

[Morthoron]

Now about the same thing in Finnish Kalevala happens after Kullervo after learning his deed with her sister and her fate has returned to his old homeplace and finds everything deserted and empty and then his mother's voice from the grave tells him to go to the wild and search for the maidens of the forest to take care of him - like going back to Nargothrond where it would be safe. And Kullervo like Túrin declines the offer.

In Finnish Kalevala it is told this way.

Shortly and not actually translated but just described...

The first paragraph:
Kullervo, son of Kalervo took his dog with him and went to the wilds. After a short trek he came to the place where he had "marred the maid, spoiled the one her mother had brought to a life".

The second:
The grass was wailing and the flowers were groaning for the misdeed. No young grass would grow or heaths blossom there as it was a dark place where the maid had been marred, the one mother had brought a life was spoiled.

The third:
Kullervo takes his sword and looks at it, turns it around and asks it questrions and thinks. Asking then from it whether it would eat the guilty flesh, drink the vile blood?

The fourth:
The sword thought about the mind of the man, getting into what he was thinking. answered with the words: "Why shouldn't I eat gladly, eat the guilty flesh and drink the vile blood? I eat the flesh of innocents and drink the blood of those with no vice as well."

The fifth:
Kullervo, son of Kalervo set the hilt of the sword to the ground and brought the edge of it to his chest. He threw himself to the sword. There he met his death.

So no Glaurung here but things at the level of structure, minor details and motive bearing a lot of resemblances indeed.

I must commend you on an excellent post, Nogrod. I would add to your rep points, unfortunately the forum is not allowing me to do so currently.

Humorously, this information ties in exactly with a point I was making in another thread; in fact, I feel like quoting your entire post and placing it in the other thread.

[davem]

And the award for first cash in goes to http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sources-Rings-Children-Hurin-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/9562914674/ref=sr_1_7/202-0041237-3792649?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185307543&sr=8-7

[Morthoron]

And the award for first cash in goes to http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sources-Rings-Children-Hurin-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/9562914674/ref=sr_1_7/202-0041237-3792649?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185307543&sr=8-7

Perhaps if they used a George MacDonald book (or even Andrew Lang) for a Tolkien source it would make more sense. There are direct references to MacDonald's work in the Hobbit, but I can't recall Tolkien ever mentioning Eddison. As far as 'The Worm of Ouroboros', there are too many words and not enough periods. Eddison loved his sentences so much he could never finish them. His naming conventions leave something to be desired as well (not to mention the book takes place on Mercury and features gods from the Greek pantheon). Bah!

[Nogrod]

(not to mention the book takes place on Mercury and features gods from the Greek pantheon). Bah!Has anyone else read Dan Simmons' "Ilium"? The idea of the Greek Pantheon in another planet (Mars in this case) sounds ridiculous enough and I do dislike some of Simmons' underlying political philosophy as well... But it was a good read indeed! I do recommend it. Really absorbing and mind-labouring sci-fi indeed with a twist of classical learning on Homer, Shakespeare and Proust. (it starts unpromisingly but after the first hundred pages you're hooked)

EDIT: This maybe a bit off-topic but I couldn't resist to advertise a good read when the idea of "the Gods of Greek Pantheon in a planet of our solar system" was mentioned.

[davem]

Perhaps if they used a George MacDonald book (or even Andrew Lang) for a Tolkien source it would make more sense. There are direct references to MacDonald's work in the Hobbit, but I can't recall Tolkien ever mentioning Eddison. As far as 'The Worm of Ouroboros', there are too many words and not enough periods. Eddison loved his sentences so much he could never finish them. His naming conventions leave something to be desired as well (not to mention the book takes place on Mercury and features gods from the Greek pantheon). Bah!

Oh, Tolkien was a fan of Eddison - Carpenter mentions he met Eddison at an Inklings meeting (its either in the Biography or 'The Inklings'). Have to admit I liked The Worm Ouroboros for the language & some of the imagery, but found the philosophy a bit iffy. Definitely not a 'source' though.

Checking Hammond & Scull I find: Apparently it was Lewis who invited Eddison to a meeting of the Inklings in February 1943 at Magdalen & he attended a second meeting in June 1944. Tolkien commented "Eddison thought what I admire 'soft' (his word: one of complete condemnation I gathered); I thought, corrupted by an evil & indeed silly 'philosophy', he was coming to admire, more & more, arrogance & cruelty. Incidentally, I thought his nomenclature slipshod & often inept. In spite of all of which, I still think of his as the greatest & most convincing writer of 'invented worlds' that I have read. But he was certainly not an 'inflluence'. (letters p.258)

Wikipedia has this:

Research done by Paul Edmund Thomas shows that Eddison started imagining the stories which would turn into the The Worm Ouroboros at a very early age. An exercise book titled The Book of Drawings dated 1892 and created by Eddison is to be found at the Bodleian Library. In this book are 59 drawings in pencil which are captioned by the author. The pages of this book contain many of the heroes and villains of the later work. For example there is a drawing entitled The murder of Gallandus by Corsus and another entitled Lord Brandoch Daha challenging Lord Corund (both of these events occur in the book).

As might be expected, significant differences exist between the ideas of a 10 year old boy and the work of a 40 year old man. Perhaps the most interesting change is the change in Lord Gro's character. In the drawings Lord Gro is a hero of skill and courage, while in the book he is a conflicted character, never able to pick a side and stick to it. Another curious change is that in the drawings, Goldry Bluszco is the main hero, while in the book, he is a figure off-stage (in an enchanted prison) for most of the novel.

Many people (including Tolkien) have wondered at, and critiqued Eddison's curious and sometimes inappropriate names for his characters, places, and fictional nations (For example: The Red Foliot, La Fireez, Pixyland, Goldry Bluszco, etc.). The answer appears to be that these names originated in the mind of a young boy and Eddison could not, or would not change them thirty years later when he wrote the stories down (see Thomas, Introduction to the Worm Ouroboros, page xix).

Which explains the 'nomenclature' Tolkien had a problem with.

[Morthoron]

Thanks for the citations, davem. I'll go reread those sections, as I said I couldn't recall Tolkien mentioning him (perhaps it's selective memory in this case). But you're right, Eddison should not be considered a 'source'; perhaps an 'antisource' (ie., what not to do when writing a fantasy).

[davem]

Just a quick update. The 2008 Tolkien Calendar & Diary are now published & they contain three new paintings by Alan Lee & a number of new pencil illustrations. February's painting is the darkly atmospheric 'The Gates of Angband' & depicts the assault of Gwindor & the folk of Nargothrond on Angband, September's is 'The Journey of Morwen & Nienor to Nargothrond', & shows the two & their Elven escort riding through an autumn landscape of reeds & fallen willows under a grey sky. Finally October's picture, 'Mablung Approaches the Doors of Nargothrond' is the picture we were originally offered as the putative cover of the book (the one with Glaurung crossing the Narog) but sans Glaurung for some reason. Personally, I find the latter two in particular superior to many of the ones included in the book, & September's painting in particular is one of the most beautiful paintings of M-e I've ever seen.

Another thing worth pointing up is that the colour reproduction, particularly in the Calendar, is far superior to that in the book, not to mention the pictures are larger & the detail far clearer. In fact, I may just pop out & get meself another copy & some picture frames.....

[Sauron the White]

The removal of Glaurung from the paintings gives added credibility to the comments attributed to Ted Nasmith and other illustrators that the Estate does NOT want "monsters" depicted. This calendar sounds like a winner and I am off to puchase it. Cannot wait to see those new illustrations.

[davem]

Looks like its available to download, & there's a nice clip of Christopher Lee reading from Ch. 1, so we can see what we're getting......

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Sorry, davem, I don't see it there

[davem]

Sorry, davem, I don't see it there

Try here:
http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/The_Children_of_Hurin_Audible_and_Itunes.php

or here (click 'sample' just under the pic) http://www.audible.com/adbl/site/products/ProductDetail.jsp?productID=BK_HCUK_000326&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes

[davem]

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/The_Children_of_Hurin_Super_Deluxe.php

[davem]

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/The_Children_of_Hurin_unabridged_audio_CD.php

Sounds good:

"The Children of Hurin unabridged audio CD has just been produced and goes on sale next week."

As we all know it is read by Christopher Lee over 7 CDs, and on an 8th CD Christopher Tolkien himself reads his preface and introduction! So my announcement from long ago was correct after all, even while I had lost hope in my last news item on the Audio CD.

The box contains Christopher Tolkien's fold-out map from the book, plus a booklet of Alan Lee's colour illustrations, plus track listings.

The CD covers also use a couple of Alan Lee paintings from the Hurin Calendar which are not in the book!