Christopher Tolkien to finish lost Middle Earth novel

[Sardy]

Unfinished Tolkien work to be published

Mon Sep 18, 12:17 PM ET

NEW YORK - An unfinished tale by J.R.R. Tolkien has been edited by his son into a completed work and will be released next spring, the U.S. and British publishers announced Monday.

Christopher Tolkien has spent the past 30 years working on "The Children of Hurin," an epic tale his father began in 1918 and later abandoned. Excerpts of "The Children of Hurin," which includes the elves and dwarves of Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings" and other works, have been published before.

"It has seemed to me for a long time that there was a good case for presenting my father's long version of the legend of the `Children of Hurin' as an independent work, between its own covers," Christopher Tolkien said in a statement.

The new book will be published by Houghton Mifflin in the United States and HarperCollins in England.

J.R.R. Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings Trilogy" has sold more than 50 million copies and was also adapted into a blockbuster, Academy Award-winning trio of films. A stage version is scheduled to open next year.

From: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060918/ap_on_en_ot/books_new_tolkien_1

[Formendacil]

I... hardly know what to think here.

First of all, there is a certain incredulity. I mean, this almost feels as if it goes against the grain of everything Christopher Tolkien has done or said in the entire HoME. But, on the other hand, it seems to harken back to the earlier days of publishing the Silmarillion, when he took a bit more artistic license, and filled out some scrappy texts.

But still... after all these years?

As near as I can tell, assuming the story is true, we're basically just looking at a published version of the Narn I Chín Húrin- with the middle chunk that was missing in Unfinished Tales filled in.

Personally, I'm inclined to think this a good thing, if it's true, but hardly a necessary one. And I'm really, really confused as to... Why?

[A_Brandybuck]

I also do not really, what I should think about it.

I could imagine, that this work is a stand-alone work of Narn I Hín Húrin, which
1. should be readable without the context of the Silmarillion
2. should contain a with the information published in HoME updated version of the Silmarillion

Anyway, it seems to be too short for a new big novel like "Lord of the Rings". He said, that he will publish the long version, but I fear, that he will add some more details to make it more exciting, but on the other Hand, like Formendacil said, it would be against his intention publishing HoME.

Anyway, it seems to me a good way to present the World of the First Age to all Tolkien Fans, who read LoTR, but haven't read the complex Silmarillion.

[Mithalwen]

This is interesting. I expect it will be a assembled rather than embellished version, however, with HoME I felt Christopher limited himself to presenting the documents his father left, it is possible that he will use his privileged knowledge from conversations etc to make decisions about conflicting versions.

I do wonder if CRT has written either his own stuff or ME tales of his own?

[Eonwe]

I'm not necessarily up on my 'writeing of Middle Earth mythology' lore. Does this mean we're getting a whole new tale, or just a revition/recompilation of an older tale?

My heart leapt when I checked my mail today, but Form's comments would lead me to believe otherwise...

[Aiwendil]

I'm not necessarily up on my 'writeing of Middle Earth mythology' lore. Does this mean we're getting a whole new tale, or just a revition/recompilation of an older tale?

Most likely it'll be exactly the same text as is found in Unfinished Tales, except with a few passages added in from the '77 Silmarillion. So, nothing new if you've read UT/HoMe.

Still, I think anything that makes this wonderful story more widely accessible is worth something.

[Alchisiel]

At first I suspected that CRT had taken the story in the Silm and story in UT and combined them together but not having read HoME due to no monies in my pocketses and having read the comments here I'm not so sure now. Is there much more to the story than what is in the Silm and UT?

[davem]

Most likely it'll be exactly the same text as is found in Unfinished Tales, except with a few passages added in from the '77 Silmarillion. So, nothing new if you've read UT/HoMe.

Still, I think anything that makes this wonderful story more widely accessible is worth something.

Of course, but many readers of Tolkien will not have read UT (The Narn) & HoM-e 11. CT has scattered the fragments across 3 books. This was not Tolkien's intention, & the narrative is coherent enough to work as a single story. Neither can we assume that there is no unpublished material left - CT did not include all the M-e writings in HoM-e & it is still appearing in Vinyar Tengwar. If a major text such as Osanwe Kenta could be excluded from HoM-e I wouldn't be surprised if other bits & pieces are around. Even if this isn't the case, the Narn should be made available to the general reader (as opposed to the Tolkien scholar).

I see a very beautiful edition forthcoming, the culmination (as the press release (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=489612&postcount=41) has it, of CT's work on his father's work. It is a fitting culmination too. We will have Tolkien's final great novel.

I'm sure that many of the critics who have dismissed Tolkien's work as 'trivial' will be shocked by the themes he deals with & amazed by the way he handles them.

[Lalwendë]

What I want to know is if we'll get a Potter style experience of bookshops opening at midnight and queues of salivating Tolkienistas being interviewed for News at Ten. ;)

[davem]

What I want to know is if we'll get a Potter style experience of bookshops opening at midnight and queues of salivating Tolkienistas being interviewed for News at Ten. ;)

With Harper Collins record on hitting publication dates it'll probably be a week late anyway.

[Lalwendë]

With Harper Collins record on hitting publication dates it'll probably be a week late anyway.

I'd better take the Portapotti along with the tent then so I'll not be getting into discomfort in the queue. :eek:

[Maédhros]

I think that it will be fantastic, but I was hoping that it would have been the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin, insted of the Narn.
I guess that CT chose the Narn because of the available material, but I hope that it could also include the Wanderings of Húrin. I don't think it will be, but I have estel.

[ninja91]

Hey Lal, dont forget that iron knuckle, since the release of the movies and the relatively new fervor stemming from the release of the movies, I wouldnt be surprised if it is as big as a Harry Potter release (excluding the future release of the 7th book, I cant wait!).
Also, I wonder if there is more than one work that Chris T. has been working on over the past 30 YEARS... ;)

[davem]

Bit more info. Publication date in the UK is April 16th & the book is 320 pages long. Amazon UK is taking pre-orders

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Children-Hurin-Christopher-Tolkien/dp/0007246226/ref=sr_11_1/202-2587479-1489436?ie=UTF8

[Aiwendil]

Three hundred and twenty pages? Now that is interesting . . .

The "Narn i Chin Hurin" in Unfinished Tales runs to about 110 pages in my edition. If we add in material from the GA and QS to fill the missing section between the arrival at Amon Rudh and the fall of Nargothrond, we might, perhaps, have 140 pages, or 150 at most.

I suppose the account of Nirnaeth Arnoediad associated with the "Narn" would probably be included as well, which adds perhaps 15 pages or so. Some introduction may also be included, summarising the story of the Silmarillion up to that point - allow another 20 pages or so for this (though that seems on the long side to me).

All this yields, at most, about 200 pages, assuming fairly ordinary typesetting. Naturally, some illustrations, indices, etc. will take up additional space, but it's hard to imagine them amounting to 120 pages.

Perhaps "The Wanderings of Hurin" is to be included. That could scarcely be done, however, unless either: 1. the work is to have a very strange ending, proceeding beyond the obvious climax of the story only to fizzle out suddenly or 2. Christopher Tolkien has done some substantial creative writing to smooth out the end of "Wanderings".

I suppose another possibility is that Christopher has taken done some creative writing to fill in the middle parts of the "Narn".

[davem]

I suppose another possibility is that Christopher has taken done some creative writing to fill in the middle parts of the "Narn".

This was my immediate thought, but all the statements I've seen so far state that it is all JRRT's work, in his own words.

Perhaps we should take the 320 pages with a pinch of salt. That said, in the Alan Lee illustrated Hobbit there are both colour plates & pencil illustrations on many of the pages, so its possible that we won't get any more material than you mention, but quite a bit of Alan Lee in there...

[Lalwendë]

And a lengthy index, a few blank pages between that and the story, a few more blank pages at the start, followed by the ISBN page, then a lengthy introduction. Maybe a bit of 'commentary'. Some double page illustrations too? Elaborate 'chapter beginning pages'.

Cynical Lalwende. ;)

Anyway, I don't care if it is short, it is new. More stuff! Lovely.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Today, The Times said that this was a quite sensational new x-rated Tolkien-story, full of incest and suicide and stuff. A far cry from the Hobbit!

They also said Hurin was an Elf-warrior. I am not sure why.

[Elros]

This was my immediate thought, but all the statements I've seen so far state that it is all JRRT's work, in his own words.

Perhaps we should take the 320 pages with a pinch of salt. That said, in the Alan Lee illustrated Hobbit there are both colour plates & pencil illustrations on many of the pages, so its possible that we won't get any more material than you mention, but quite a bit of Alan Lee in there...

I am a recent addition to the Barrow Downs, but this thread caught my attention. I have read and thoroughly enjoyed The Silmarillion and have read the Unfinished Tales, and one thing I hold against Christopher Tolkien is that I doubt he is doing what his father would have wished.

I do feel that the books that have been released due to Christopher's "assistance" have added to the Middle Earth that many readers find themselves in, but one does wonder if the Creator himself would have approved of these works being put together and published. What if these were meant to remain private?

I look forward to the release, but like some of the posthumous Ernest Hemingway novels, one must wonder what the author would think.

[davem]

I do feel that the books that have been released due to Christopher's "assistance" have added to the Middle Earth that many readers find themselves in, but one does wonder if the Creator himself would have approved of these works being put together and published. What if these were meant to remain private?

I look forward to the release, but like some of the posthumous Ernest Hemingway novels, one must wonder what the author would think.

Ct is fully authorised to do whatever he wants with the unpublished material. From Tolkien's will:

’Upon Trust to allow my son Christopher full access to the same* in order that he may act as my Literary Executor with full power to publish edit alter rewrite or complete any work of mine which may be unpublished at my death or to destroy the whole or any part or parts of any such unpublished works as he in his absolute discretion may think fit and subject thereto’

*unpublished works

[Lalwendë]

Today, The Times said that this was a quite sensational new x-rated Tolkien-story, full of incest and suicide and stuff. A far cry from the Hobbit!

They also said Hurin was an Elf-warrior. I am not sure why.

Cheers for the tip. :) The Times lets you see articles (unlike the Indy, boo) so I've found the link here. (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2372438,00.html)

Text here too, in case it disappears:

X-rated Tolkien: it's not for the kiddies
Maurice Chittenden

A DARKNESS is once again descending on JRR Tolkien’s fabled land of Middle-earth. An unfinished work completed by the writer’s son is such a departure from the world of hobbits that it may merit an X-certificate.

The manuscript for The Children of Hurin, to be published next spring, contains incest, suicide and a multitude of violent deaths. Any film version is likely to have restricted audiences because of the subject matter.

Christopher Tolkien has spent the past 30 years working on the epic tale that his father began in 1918 while on leave from the army. JRR, who was recovering from trench fever contracted during the battle of the Somme, later abandoned the work.

Its publication 90 years on follows the success of The Lord of the Rings, which has sold more than 50m copies and was adapted into a trilogy of Oscar-winning films.

The “new” work does not include characters such as Arwen, played by Liv Tyler in the movies directed by Peter Jackson, and Legolas, played by Orlando Bloom.

It is much darker and is based on the Kalevala, an epic poem from Finland. Tolkien, who died at the age of 81 in 1973, took the tale and weaved his own magical story around it.

The Children of Hurin will tell the story of the family of an elf warrior taken prisoner by Morgoth, the first Dark Lord, held responsible for torturing elves and producing the first orcs, a race of evil goblins.

Hurin, the elf warrior, is given powers by Morgoth to foresee what will happen to his children. “Death you may yet crave from me as a boon,” Morgoth tells him.

One son, Turin, is manoeuvred into having sex with his sister Nienor and becomes a carrier of doom, triggering the death of everyone close to him.

One Tolkien expert, William Ferguson, said this weekend: “Turin makes folks like Othello and Hamlet and Oedipus look like lucky devils.”

A dragon, slain by Turin, causes Nienor to realise that they have committed incest. By then she is carrying his unborn child and commits suicide by throwing herself into a ravine.

Turin finally kills himself with his talking sword. “I will drink thy blood gladly,” says its black blade.

Tolkien touched briefly on the story in The Silmarillion, a compendium of Middle-earth history: “And when all was done, the elves sang a lament for the Children of Hurin.”

His son revisited the story in a chapter of his father’s Unfinished Tales in 1980, but this will be the first time it has been told in detail in one volume.

Christopher Tolkien said this weekend he believed there was a strong case for completing his father’s long version of the legend, “if this could be done without distortion or invention”.

Tolkien experts welcomed its forthcoming publication. Dorothy Heydt, a writer of fantasy and science fiction, said: “Turin had more grief in his life than anybody ought to. The story is based on a Finnish folk tale and is full of incest and suicide and stuff.”
Adam Tolkien, son of Christopher, said: “The book will be the equivalent of a director’s cut of a DVD, except in this case the director is deceased.

“It is a very educated work. My father has been working on these stories for 30 years. What has already been published is a very condensed version of the story.

“The Silmarillion gives a history of Middle-earth mythology. To give you an idea of the scale, the whole story of The Lord of the Rings takes up [only] 15 pages in The Silmarillion.”

Christopher Tolkien is now 81 and The Children of Hurin, which will be published by HarperCollins in Britain, may be the last “new” book to be issued under the JRR Tolkien name.

Writers’ literary estates lose their entitlement to copyright income 70 years after their death.

Next week sees the publication of a sequel to Peter Pan, commissioned by the estate of JM Barrie to raise money for Great Ormond Street hospital before the copyright expires in 2007.

Nicolette Jones, author and children’s books reviewer for The Sunday Times, said: “There is a lot of mileage in reworking books. The Ian Fleming estate asked Charlie Higson to write books about the young Bond, William Horwood wrote sequels to The Wind in the Willows and there have been Winnie the Pooh spin-offs.

“Given the controversy over whether JK Rowling will bump off Harry Potter, where will that leave a sequel? Somebody, some day is going to try to pick up the story again.”

X-certificate? Thankfully books don't (yet) get 'certificates'!

Interesting point about the copyright expiration.

[Anguirel]

Priceless!

A dragon, slain by Turin, causes Nienor to realise that they have committed incest. By then she is carrying his unborn child and commits suicide by throwing herself into a ravine.

NIENOR: (Examining dragon entrails) Oooo, I'm a Virgo. That means I've committed incest. Dagnabbit.

Turin finally kills himself with his talking sword. “I will drink thy blood gladly,” says its black blade.

Talking Swords-A Must for Angstsy Heroes!*

*Black blades and vampirism come with 50p extra charge

Also, William Ferguson, whoever you are, you're one of the most insightful literary critics it's ever been my pleasure to read...

[HerenIstarion]

This sounds like a good signature:

Turin makes folks like Othello and Hamlet and Oedipus look like lucky devils

:D:D:D

[Lalwendë]

Anguirel, you make it sound like an episode of Brookside when you put it like that. :p

I secretly want there to be a film, because the action figures would be, to say the least, interesting...

Anyway, hopefully it will put paid to the media myth that Tolkien's work is just about jolly likkle Hobbitses and cutey blonde Elves and well, that it's basically childish. Even if people don't read the book they'll find out about it and the media will play up on the dark nature of the tale so it will give Tolkien a slightly different perspective in the eyes of the non-fans.

[Sardy]

While I'm looking very much forward to this book, I personally have always wanted to see Chris Tolkien take more creative liberties and actually expand (not just edit) his father's work. Has Chris published any fiction of his own?

I still have fingers crossed for an epic trilogy based upon "The New Shadow." A good writer (with CT's intimite knowledge of JRRT's work) could surely work around JRRT's oft-quoted misgivings about the abandoned seminal work (or develop an entirely new sequel concept). Whether achieved by CT alone or with the aid of another, more experienced creative writer, I think that the project has much merit and appeal. It could happen... CT is just 81 years young!

[Aiwendil]

Lalwende wrote:
Anyway, I don't care if it is short, it is new.

But the one thing we can be sure of is that it is not new. And you call yourself cynical.

I secretly want there to be a film

I've always thought the Turin saga would make a very excellent film - though I imagine it being something of a cult classic rather than a blockbuster. I could see it as an Ingmar Bergman movie.

"Hurin, the elf warrior" is great. Wouldn't you think The Times would have at least one person on their staff who's actually read The Silmarillion?

[Elros]

Ct is fully authorised to do whatever he wants with the unpublished material. From Tolkien's will:

Thank you for that immediate clarification of the matter!

That pretty much solves and and all objections I have on the matter.

[littlemanpoet]

That statement in the will shows a lot of confidence in his son. Maybe Christopher will surprise us all with a wee bit of writing flair inherited from his daddy. 'twould be nice, no?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Regarding the "dark nature" of the tale, this is already being played up by the press: Tolkien's Son Finds Dark Side of Fable. (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20470416-5001986,00.html)

[The Sixth Wizard]

Writing flair? He better get cracking, he IS 81.

"Hurin, the elf warrior" is great. Wouldn't you think The Times would have at least one person on their staff who's actually read The Silmarillion?

I guess we must forgive the media for making a few mistakes and jokes. After all to them Tolkien fans are a particularly unfathomable bunch (I tried reading Ainulindale to my family, it - needless to say - didn't go down well). I wonder how many people around the world have read the Silmarillion anyway...

Imagine a Silmarillion movie. Sure, it would be boring, long, have no tickets sold, skip half the book, expensive, jump between scenes and characters. But think of the battle scenes!!

[the guy who be short]

£18.99? Eek. I think I'll wait for a paperback edition, or perhaps get it from the library.

But incredibly welcome news, if there is any unpublished stuff to receive. Though I wonder whether it will render parts of the Silmarillion obsolete. Perhaps future editions will be a lot slimmer.

[littlemanpoet]

I wonder whether it will render parts of the Silmarillion obsolete.Hardly. 'Expanded upon', but not obsolete.

[lindil]

Aiwendil thanks for doing the math on the new books contents.

I think CRT may well flesh out some of the more compressed material.
Whether Wanderings makes it as anything other than an appendix is the question.

I would not be suprised.

I really wonder whether this bodes more such treatments?

Also he may take the moment to put in the missing accounts he mentions in XI. I think the trolls in the Nirnaeth scene is one. Underhillo?

As for Silmarillion 'obscolesence'...what could have rendered it less than THE account, than UT and HoME 1-5 and X-XII already did?

[zifnab]

By now...this is old news. I have not read every post on this so far, so, I apologize. He is what I did read (and a bit of some stuff from daveM{Look Dave! I didn't even need to hit the 'reputation' thingy for you!}). Taken from an article on SFcrowsnest (http://www.sfcrowsnest.com/) linked to CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/books/09/18/books.newtolkien.ap/index.html).

And I only have one thing to say....1918 !!!!
<br/>

[ianintheuk]

For my own amusement and to satisfy a need I have made my own "children of Hurin" which I type set in 11 point times new roman and printed on paper the same size as the published books,

This included all of the "NARN" plus its appendices and the missing bits from the Silmarillion which i wove into one narrative, additionally I added
1. Hurin/Huor's finding of Gondolin
2. the introduction from HoME plus other notes
3. The battle of unnumbered tears
4. the wanderings of Hurin plus the story of his visit to Nargothrond - Doriath and his death


All of this text came to 176 pages ONLY so if the 320pages is right even taking into account a number of pictures indices etc we are still looking at 80-100 new pages of actual text (BEST GUESS)

So perhaps this is a good thing !

[Child of the 7th Age]

There is a fascinating interview with Tolkien's grandson Adam, where he answers questions about the new material. Here. (http://www.fantasymundo.com/articulo.php?articulo=439)

Adam Tolkien indicates that, while much of the material will be drawn from texts that readers have already seen, CT has added some new parts to the story. When asked if there was any chance of the publication of other revised stories such as the Fall of Gondolin, Adam said that would be harder because there is less material extant. However, he did not totally rule out even that possibility!

It also sounds as if Hurin will be written in a different style than the Silm.

Christopher Tolkien believes there may be many readers who have found the Silmarillion too difficult and distanced in style to be attracted to the story, and who have not wished to make their way through the painstaking editorial content that makes for the main interest of the History of Middle Earth.

Hmm... I wonder if Hurin will read more like LotR. But that would be hard to do....

I still feel that someday in the far distant future the Legendarium will be treated much like the Arthurian corpus with various retellings and interpretations. The excellent ones will rise to the top; those that are poorly told will be forgotten. This sounds like the first tentative step in that direction, albeit within the protecion of the estate. Retellings like this have all kinds of problems in terms of canon. But if the Legendarium is truly modern mythology, isn't that better than having Tolkien's writings ossify? And hasn't the precedent alright been set with the Silm and all the editing and additions that had to be done?

There is also a reference to the possibility of a Hobbit film. Adam is cautious but not innately hostile:

Alejandro Serrano: They say many things about a film (or two) based on The Hobbit. ¿this things are good for the books (many people could read them for the first time if they do a film, as happened with The Lord of the Rings) or they are damaging them?


Adam Tolkien: I would have to say that it will depend on the film!

[Aiwendil]

I wonder whether the "pieces that have never appeared before" are genuine JRRT texts that have not yet been made public or creative writing by Christopher. If it's the former, then I must say I'd prefer a scholarly publication of them.

I also hope that Christopher doesn't attempt to change the style of the Narn to make it more appealing to those that didn't like the Silmarillion.

Anyway, I remain somewhat doubtful about the whole enterprise. I suppose it's hard for me to get excited about the publication of a story which, as far as I'm concerned, has already been published in a satisfactory form. Not that I have anything against a "fan-fictionalized" expansion upon Tolkien's writings (I've dabbled in this approach myself), but I can't see this new publication as something official or authoritative.

[Mithalwen]

But the fact is that the text of "The Children of Hurin" is entirely in the author's (So J.R.R. Tolkien) words - apart from very minor reworkings of a grammatical and stylistic nature.

I think that is explicit enough surely. I think CT would have to had a complete personality change to start playing fast and loose with the stories at this stage...

[Lalwendë]

But the fact is that the text of "The Children of Hurin" is entirely in the author's (So J.R.R. Tolkien) words - apart from very minor reworkings of a grammatical and stylistic nature.

I think that is explicit enough surely. I think CT would have to had a complete personality change to start playing fast and loose with the stories at this stage...

Indeed. Christopher Tolkien is hardly Peter Jackson, he is the man expressly given permission by Tolkien to do with his remaining work as he saw fit, and to date CT has given us a lifetime of work in producing material that others could simply have sold on to a cash rich University somewhere or other, to do who knows what horrors with.

If we are to toss aside the Children of Hurin as not being in JRRT's own words, then we should also be tossing aside The Sil as CT was his editor for that work, finding out 'grammatical and stylistic' errors. How 'purist' are we to be? You can't get any better than Christopher Tolkien in terms of a Tolkien expert.

[Aiwendil]

I think that is explicit enough surely. I think CT would have to had a complete personality change to start playing fast and loose with the stories at this stage...

Perhaps we have different ideas of what constitutes "fast and loose". CT took some great liberties in the '77 Silmarillion. I am wondering whether he will be taking similar liberties with this new publication.

What I wonder is, if the "new parts" that have been added to the new "Children of Hurin" are genuine texts by JRRT, why didn't CT publish them in UT or HoMe?

I'm not trying to condemn CT - on the contrary, I hold him in very high esteem and am very thankful for all the work he's done with his father's papers. I'd just like to know what these "new parts" are and where they came from.

[Mithalwen]

Perhaps we have different ideas of what constitutes "fast and loose". CT took some great liberties in the '77 Silmarillion. I am wondering whether he will be taking similar liberties with this new publication.

What I wonder is, if the "new parts" that have been added to the new "Children of Hurin" are genuine texts by JRRT, why didn't CT publish them in UT or HoMe?

I'm not trying to condemn CT - on the contrary, I hold him in very high esteem and am very thankful for all the work he's done with his father's papers. I'd just like to know what these "new parts" are and where they came from.


Add this quote "So in conclusion : Many parts of the text are essentially the same as those that appear in other works (and particularly "Unfinished Tales"), other parts will be new except for those readers who have read in detail the History of Middle Earth.
The text as a whole can be said to be "new" as it is a recomposition of published texts and other "pieces" that weren't published previously. A completed puzzle, in a sense."


So the answer is that they will be new to many but probably not to you. ;) The crucial element of my comment was at this stage. CT has expressed his regret about some of his decisions regarding the Silmarillion and has spent a couple of decades "putting it right" one might say, by editing HoME as a scholarly work. I doubt he will now "regress" rather than use the insight and increased knowledge even he must have gained, to publish the version he probably wishes went in the Silmarillion proper. The comment that it was unlikely that other stories would be given the same treatment is another indicator.

The decisions CT made over thirty years ago, to ensure that the work dearest to his father's heart was published in some form are unlikely to be repeated now - I don't suspect that it was then anticipated that there would be such a wide public for so many fragments....

Personally I would regard this version of The children of Hurin as more canonical than the Silmarillion for these reasons.

Since Adam translated the Books of Lost Tales into French, I think we can hope that there will be a Tolkien with a scholarly rather than mercenary attitude to the works involved with the literary Estate for some time - and one who is perhaps more "media friendly" to use a horrible expression.

[Bêthberry]

How 'purist' are we to be? You can't get any better than Christopher Tolkien in terms of a Tolkien expert.

I don't think it's a question of being purist. Aiwendil has already demonstrated on the Chapter by Chapter discussion of The Silm some of the very significant editorial changes which CT made to The Silm papers. I don't condemn CT for this, but merely note that such changes are significant.

I suppose we can argue until the elves are untied from Arda's fate about who would be the best expert to handle the Tolkien papers. However, the very nature of the closeness between father and son makes me at least hesitate to accept unconditionally texts from CT's hands or even from the Tolkien Estate.

Often families wish to preserve an untarnished image of their famous member for history's sight. They withhold information which they regard as too deeply personal, about both themselves and about the famous author. They withold letters which they view as possibly too negative. They withhold things which in all superficial fairness they think are not significant, being blinded by their closeness to possibilities of significance. All families have skeletons, as do all writers, particularly dead ones. ;) The Letters we have now of Tolkien's are incomplete. What letters have been withheld or even suppressed? Isn't there a diary that has been preserved?

Why, for instance, are we not to have Tolkien's translation of Beowulf?

It's a delicate balance, being a literary executor and editor, of insight, respect, intuition, knowingness, objective sense. Being a son or friend does not always mean having the clearest vision.

I suppose, rather than dithering back and forth, we ought simply to wait to see what the book brings.

[Lalwendë]

Who knows why this new material wasn't put into HoME or UT? Only Christopher, actually. ;)

I find one of the reasons behind the publication of the new book to be particularly good. It seems there is the intent that this will form a 'bridge' between LotR and The Sil in terms of narrative and style; how many readers are thoroughly intimidated by The Sil after reading the great narrative of LotR? Well, this new book promises to provide something to bridge that gap. And in addition, it seems that Tolkien himself wanted it to be presented as a full story, so Christopher is fulfilling a desire of his father's.

Bb - we have to be careful though. Remember that Tolkien's children are still very much alive, as are grandchildren who knew and loved him (and who are lovely people who deserve the right to maintain family dignity). Their interests come before anyone's. I believe this is why The Family Album was withdrawn from sale. The Hughes estate also withheld a lot of Plath material and I know they are still hanging onto a lot of it; the couple's children are living, and the whole sorry tale of that relationship is still raw not only in their minds but in the minds of some particularly vicious critics so its a case of protection rather than restriction. The Tolkien estate would run the risk of having every bone picked over were all the material to be made available. We'll just have to accept that our generation won't be the one to see all this stuff, but maybe our great grandchildren will be.

[Mithalwen]

However, the very nature of the closeness between father and son makes me at least hesitate to accept unconditionally texts from CT's hands or even from the Tolkien Estate.

.



Carpenter states in his introduction that the choice on inclusion was his not CT's. Since he was given access to the love letters I think he clearly had pretty good access.....

Michael Palin is broadcasting his diaries at the moment and notes ruefully that many things that became significant were not recorded. Why should it be different for Tolkien. These things may not exist . A lot of the letters that were published hardly show Tolkien as "untarnished". Often he is grumpy, peevish, at times mysogynistic and intolerant. To think that there is a lot of interesting stuff withheld is to me is the stuff of conspiracy theories. I have vast quantities of letters written to me by my parents (albeit not famous in any sphere) and I treasure them but is there anything interesting in them? No... not even to me. I do co-own a letter from a world famous person (Florence Nightingale) and there isn't anything much interesting in that either... though I will probably pass it to her archive someday. Do I want to read every letter Tolkien wrote ... no... and just imagine how CT would be accused of cashing in if he published his parents loveletters for the delectation of the prurient... :rolleyes:

Even I accepted the hypothesis that there was some supressed stash, I would still allow the family the right to with hold it. I don't think we have the right to know everything. I actually felt intrusive going to the grave though I found the experience moving. Diaries are not blogs ... does fame mean you and your family have to lose all privacy?

Tolkien may not have liked Sayers' Gaudy Night but I am sure he would not have argued with it's tale of the evil of surpressing document. Christopher Tolkien is a scholar as well as a son - maybe not in his father's league but a professional scholar nevertheless. Making "significant" changes to the Silmarillion do not de facto destroy his integrity.

Given that he has spent so long making so much available and still gets regarded as untrustworthy, I wouldn't blame him for not releasing more. In fact if it were me..... :p

[Lalwendë]

A lot of the letters that were published hardly show Tolkien as "untarnished". Often he is grumpy, peevish, at times mysogynistic and intolerant. To think that there is a lot of interesting stuff withheld is to me is the stuff of conspiracy theories.



In the letters we see a lot of 'sides' to Tolkien, we see him being controversial, making grandiose statements, saying some quite personal things. He sometimes comes across as jingoistic and those ltters reveal a lot of things that could make us as readers quite uncomfortable. That tells me that we have quite enough of Tolkien's personal thoughts, and I trust that the editing has been done as openly as possible.

How much do we need to see? Are we being greedy? Yes, I think we often are!

[Bêthberry]

My goodness, Lal, I certainly hope the Tolkien family doesn't have something as difficult to deal with as Plath's and Hugh's children!

It's hardly a conspiracy theory to suggest a slight reservation over a selected edition of an author's letters. It's really just standard practice to be a little cautious about the criteria for the selection and to wonder what else might be out there. Oh what some of us would do for a letter on balrog wings! ;)

The Letters as they stand don't, in my humble opinion, answer a question Squatter raised some years ago in chat: What kept him at it? Why did Tolkien devote so much of his life to the Legendarium, when he had so many other things going on in his life? davem recently repeated this question. While we can speculate--and speculation is our delight--the answer remains an interpretation. There could well be documents "out there"--deliberately playing on the alleged conspiracy theme ;) -- which could shed some light on this question--or rather, which could send us off on other roads not yet explored.

I rather like Child's discussion of the issue of free expression, as it pertains to CT (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=493092&postcount=10).

Why can we not read Tolkien's translation of Beowulf? Asking such a question is not an intrusion into a family's personal life nor is it a personal attack. It's intellectual curiosity.

[Child of the 7th Age]

The historian and librarian in me wants to be able to access those additional letters and/or the diary. I don't feel it's "greedy" since since so often a scrap overlooked by one generation turns out to have enormous interpretive value. Garth's recent publication of Tolkien's experiences in WWI relied heavily on just such early personal correspondence that wasn't available before. His study suggests how important such overlooked items can be. However, when it comes to personal materials, it's often a question of "when" rather than "if". It may not be feasible to release some of the later papers now since so many of the people mentioned in them are still alive. I think we will eventually see them, though perhaps not in my life.

But I totally agree with Bêthberry on Beowulf. I can't understand witholding an academic text when there are qualified scholars politely asking to work with it. The one justification for not making the text public might be that it's very rough and does not warrant publication. However, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Tolkien wrote a partial verse translation of Beowulf, a complete prose translation, plus reams of notes and a line-by-line analysis. These documents are in the Bodleian with very limited scholarly access. The original plan was to have Professor Drout edit the translations and hundreds of pages of Tolkien's notes into a two-volume edition. This is the same professor who published Beowulf and the Critics (an extended version of the 1936 lecture) with the estate's blessing. He is a specialist in early medieval texts and has written a great deal in that area. Plus he is on the board of the new Tolkien Studies .

Both Drout and the other Anglo-Saxon scholars who have seen the Beowulf manuscripts are full of glowing praise. John Carey, the former Merton professor of English literature at Oxford, said: “Beowulf is enormously hard to translate into alliterative verse, but it sounds remarkable. Tolkien is much closer to the Anglo-Saxon form than Heaney.” Kevin Crossley-Holland, a poet, broadcaster and Anglo-Saxon expert who has published his own translation, said: “It captures the sound of big waves crashing on a shingle beach and the lines die away like water running up a beach. Tolkien’s work breathes the same world as the Anglo-Saxon poems and the Norse myths. It is umbilically linked.” In Drout's estimation, Tolkien's translation is "better" than all others currently available and much truer to the spirit of the original.

OK, so I am a "Beowulf junkie". But when I read comments like this, I find myself drooling! There was a previous post by Squatter about this same text. He indicated that, at a recent conference his professor attended, many Anglo-Saxon scholars were concerned that the estate withdrew the permission because they wanted to secure a more lucrative deal. I have never heard that anywhere else. Comments from Professor Drout suggest that the estate was upset at the way the press jumped on the story and printed incorrect information. I just hope that someday, someway, these manuscripts are released for solid, responsible Anglo-Saxon specialists to work with them. Everything suggests that these texts would be a real and deserved capstone for Tolkien the medievalist.

[Lalwendë]

The Letters as they stand don't, in my humble opinion, answer a question Squatter raised some years ago in chat: What kept him at it? Why did Tolkien devote so much of his life to the Legendarium, when he had so many other things going on in his life? davem recently repeated this question. While we can speculate--and speculation is our delight--the answer remains an interpretation. There could well be documents "out there"--deliberately playing on the alleged conspiracy theme -- which could shed some light on this question--or rather, which could send us off on other roads not yet explored.

Or, it could just be that there is no simple answer to why he spent his life on this work! It might be trite but we could put it down to being his hobby!

I'd personally like to see more letters on topics I have an interest in, too. But I seriously believe that all known letters of general interest, which would not cause family upset, have been published. No 'image' of Tolkien is being preserved - on the contrary, the letters only muddy the waters about what he believed, what he wanted the work to 'do', if anything, and what sort of man he was.

Child - if the documents are in the Bodleian then its not the 'fault' of the Tolkien family if access is restricted. But bear in mind that access does need to be restricted or I'd be hot footing it down there to thumb through them, and I have no scholarly interest in Beowulf, though I could pretend to have. So could a lot of people.

As to why the new version of Beowulf is not available, maybe it is in a rough state and considering Tolkien's reputation as an academic, the estate wishes it to be tidied, made more clear or some other scholarly jiggery-pokery to be done with it before unleashing it on the hard, cruel eyes of other high flying academics who might gossip about it?

Anyway, why are we getting in knots about conspiracies? Just ask the estate! :)

[Child of the 7th Age]

Child - if the documents are in the Bodleian then its not the 'fault' of the Tolkien family if access is restricted. But bear in mind that access does need to be restricted or I'd be hot footing it down there to thumb through them, and I have no scholarly interest in Beowulf, though I could pretend to have. So could a lot of people.

Lal,

I totally agree. I don't think this situation is anyone's "fault". And the term "conspiracy" with all its negative connotations just doesn't apply. These are all people who are trying to do the decent thing. Yet there can be legitimate differences of opinion when it comes to the release or retention of historical and literary documents. Tolkien's papers are no exceptions. The estate is well within its legal rights to make decisions on access (donors generally stipulate to an archives what the limits of access will be), and there is no question that CT is attempting to do what he feels is right.

But it is also true that there are people out there who have a genuine desire to study these materials and who have both the background and the heart to make a contribution, yet have not been able to gain access to the texts. The linguistic papers, for example, have been a bone of contention for many years.

Any historical collection has to have rules about access and restriction. And yes, not everyone can come trampling through the door when the author is as popular as Tolkien. Yet there is still a fine line here. My personal feelng is that you don't want to shut out the very people who can benefit from studying the texts and passing along what they've learned to others. I am extremely happy that the estate opened the doors to scholars/writers like Carpenter, Garth, and Hammond. We would be poorer without their insights. But I do think there have been instances when a slightly more liberal policy would not have been out of line.

Part of the problem is also one of communication. When it was publicly announced that the Beowulf manuscripts would be released, edited, and published, many people who make their living as medievalists were very excited. But then the permission was revoked with no public explanation. Those same scholars, many of whom were also diehard Tolkien fans, were left scratching their heads in puzzlement. Perhaps that communication will improve now that Adam is involved with the translation of some of the papers and also giving interviews.

In this situation, I truly don't believe that the entire burden of "right" or "wrong" rests wholly on one side or the other. CT has done some wonderful, astounding things that should earn him our respect and thanks. But both he and the people serving under him are only human and some of their decisions have been more controversial. Most of the petitioners seeking access to documents(setting aside the few crackpot or strictly commercial interests that could easily be winnowed out) as well as the actual guardians of the estate are motivated by the same basic impulse: on some level they love and respond to the Legendarium and want to make sure that Tolkien's heritage is honored and respected in an appropriate way. For precisely that reason, I would love to see Beowulf in print someday.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

There was a previous post by Squatter about this same text.

Indeed there was.
My post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=403179&postcount=4) is a little more circumspect than you make it sound, so I've linked to it.

That was a chance meeting, reported to me by chance by my then supervisor (chairless for now). I suppose that when two Anglo-Saxonists meet at a conference and both of them happen to be Tolkien fans, and one of them happens to be engaged in a project that involves Anglo-Saxon literature and Tolkien it's inevitable that the subject should crop up. Since it was well known on the course that I'm a fairly obsessive collector of all Tolkien information, it's not terribly surprising that I heard about the meeting not long afterwards. I tried to make it clear in my post that there was only a suggestion that the Estate's motives were financial, mainly because I wasn't privy to the original conversation.

What you've said about Tolkien's verse translation is exactly what I would expect from him, having compared Gawain and Pearl with his Modern English versions. His aim seems always to have been nothing less than a complete translation. It was not enough to tell a modern English reader what a text literally meant: he wanted to render the author's every nuance and device, whilst simultaneously preserving the metrical structure, rhyme, stress and alliteration of the original. Tolkien was probably the best qualified person of his generation to translate Beowulf: he had a genuine poetic sensibility as well as the detailed technical understanding of both the original language and modern English required to create an accurate rendering. He was also well versed in all aspects of Beowulfiana as they were known at his time: themes, history, provenance, parallels and cultural context. Not only that, but he was himself at the cutting edge of research into the poem.

I own a copy of Crossley-Holland's translation, which was always a useful aid to study. If he and a former occupier of the Merton chair, not to mention Drout himself, are impressed then this work is an important contribution to scholarship, and would almost certainly be adopted as one of the standard texts for teaching Beowulf. It's iniquitous that it's languishing in a box somewhere waiting to deteriorate into illegibility. There seems something excessive about the extent to which access to Tolkien's papers is controlled. Plenty of people have seen Tolkien's papers, and I haven't heard one thing said that suggests they contain anything that could damage his reputation, even if mishandled. Even a little more openness from the Estate about their selection criteria wouldn't go amiss. At least they could relieve the old Templar who has to challenge all comers to single combat... wait, that's something else.

I think that the Tolkien Estate is shooting itself in the foot by refusing to present its stance on certain issues except through lawyers. All it would take sometimes is a hundred words or so from Christopher Tolkien posted on a website somewhere and a lot of this mistrust would evaporate. Obviously the terms of contractual agreements can't just be trumpeted abroad, but perhaps a brief explanation when a long-awaited party is suddenly cancelled would help to reduce the amount of impertinent speculation and ridiculous conspiracy-theorising. Perhaps this is why they've started their own website. I think that issues like the Beowulf translations may end up being addressed there, and if that's what the Estate plans to do then their public relations advice has suddenly improved dramatically. I agree that a young and outgoing face giving interviews will probably do no harm to relations between Tolkien's heirs and the rest of the world, and that will reduce the need for heavy-handed legal measures. All in all, I hope that the Estate is realising that they and Tolkien's fans have no reason to be at odds with one another, provided that each party respects the other. Then again, I'll wait to see what they do with their website before I start patting anyone on the back.

[Child of the 7th Age]

My post is a little more circumspect than you make it sound, so I've linked to it.

Squatter,

Sorry, sorry about my crude condensation. Open pen, insert large foot. I should have linked to the original post.

What you are suggesting in terms of their new website makes sense. I can understand that CT and the estate would prefer to have comfortable turf on which to make such announcements rather than just throwing press releases out into the void where the minions of Morgoth can devour them. If the site will be used for communication and explanation, that would be wonderful. But, as you say, we'll have to withold judgment.

The context in which this issue arose for me was similar to what you've described about your professor; it involved discussions at a conference. One of the largest gatherings of medievalists in the US is held at Kalamazoo, Michigan ( an unlikely place, I know). My undergrad college , a small school no one's ever heard of, is also in that city. Several years ago, I visited the college and attended the conference, which I hadn't done in years. A number of people were speculating about the Beowulf texts, since the permission to publish had apparently been pulled. They weren't hostile to CT or the estate (in fact several of these same people had participated in a Tolkien session). They just wanted to understand what had happened and expressed concern about the availability of the texts.

As someone who doesn't read Anglo-Saxon but still appreciates this historical period, I would love to read Tolkien's translations because these would probably bring us closer to the original than the ones that are currently available. Tolkien's unique combination of historical knowledge and sensitivity to words could give us a new perspective.

What if Silm and HoME had never been released? Our appreciation of Tolkien as the creator of Arda would necessarily be more limited. But without CT's approval and hard work,none of that would have happened. It's possible that these historical texts and notes on Beowulf would shed a similar new light on Tolkien's contributions as a medievalist. Let's hope it happens soon.

[Lalwendë]

There's probably a very good, non-sinister reason for holding back on the Beowulf translation. I know how keen everyone is to see it, especially Child who has posted about this a few times over the years! But if you really are that keen to see it, do get in touch with the estate/publishers and ask. obviously your enquiry would have to be worded correctly to get a response as they may be touchy about the subject, but it's worth asking, if not to set minds at rest.

There is always the possibility that the translation is simply held up due to legal or economic matters, both of which would be something the estate may be unwilling or even unable to divulge.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Lal,

You must have been reading my mind long distance regarding contacting the estate. I had been thinking about raising these questions for some time. When I first saw the estate's new website, I filled out the form with a polite inquiry about the status of the Beowulf material in terms of current access and the possibility of future publication. I also wrote the Bodleian, Harper Collins UK, Harper Collins US, and Houghton Mifflin.

I am more interested in the question of editing and publication than anything else. I don't have the background in Anglo-Saxon to make sense of unedited papers. Plus, one of my offspring has just started college so there is little chance of squeezing out spare pennies for a trip to the UK. (I lived in England for a few years when I was younger and doing research/studying but then I was footloose and fancy free.) If I receive any pertinent answers or even just a "thank you for sharing", I'll mention it on this thread. I would be surprised to learn anything substantial, not because of any cover-up or something silly like that, but because the system doesn't work that way. Still, you can't be sure until you ask.

[davem]

Y'all might be interested in this, much info on CoH & other Tolkien related stuff...

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/David-Brawn-Interview.htm

&

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/Tolkien-Calendar-2008.htm

[davem]

slightly different version of the cover we've already seen here (http://www.guardianbookshop.co.uk/BerteShopWeb/viewProduct.do?ISBN=9780007246229)

Could this be true the one?

[Lalwendë]

I've just been having a look on Amazon and they've now changed the release date of Children to Monday 16th April. Personally it was irritating me that it had said 17th as that's a Tuesday, and I wanted to be sure so I can be at the shops nice 'n' early. ;)

[Lalwendë]

Hurrah!

The cover art for Children of Hurin has been revealed! Here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Children-Hurin-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/0007246226/sr=8-2/qid=1170972268/ref=pd_ka_2/202-8565820-0452647?ie=UTF8&s=books)

[Hyarion]

I saw that too, looks great! For those who can't even wait for the link to load here it is, plus a stamp which will be gold foiled on the Deluxe edition:

http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/8/85/The_Children_of_Hurin_cover.jpg

http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/9/9c/The_Children_of_Hurin_stamp.jpg

[Aiwendil]

Nice cover. I'm starting to get a little bit excited about this in spite of myself.

Not quite the way I'd pictured the Dragon-helm, but not bad looking either. And the ornamental design strikes me as being rather like something JRRT himself might have drawn.

[Mithalwen]

Very Celtic/Scandinavian.....

Incidentally I hope the statement that "Sadly Christopher Tolkien is unable to come to the UK for any events. " translates that he is unwilling to do something so stressful at his age rather than that his health is failing particularly. :(

[davem]

Very Celtic/Scandinavian.....

Incidentally I hope the statement that "Sadly Christopher Tolkien is unable to come to the UK for any events. " translates that he is unwilling to do something so stressful at his age rather than that his health is failing particularly. :(

Me too. I seem to recall that he did attend a celebration for the completion of HoM-e. My feeling is that we wouldn't be told if he was ill, so one can only hope he is ok. I do have a friend in the TS who is quite close to the family & is in correspondence with Priscilla & he hasn't mentioned anything about Christopher being unwell, but he is, admittedly, reticent in talking about them. I may email him & check - now you've put the idea in my head....

[Mithalwen]

Well of course there are lots of good longevity genes in the family but he has now he is less than a year older than my increasingly frail father so I guess I am inclined to wonder and of course he has now passed his parents in age.

However given that he is (understandably) protective of his privacy and doesn't use his own name when travelling to the UK in any circumstances - it was perhaps unlikely to happen anyway. I went to a Terry Pratchett booksigning once and it would be unreasonable to expose even the halest octogenarian to anything like it.

Personally I am grateful he has spent so much of his time on his father's work and the new book was an unexpected bonus. While the baton has been passed to an extent to Hammond/Scull and Adam Tolkien, I am sure we would all hope that Christopher, with his unique perspective on Middle Earth stays with us for a good while yet...and that he spends his time writting down everything he can remember rather than signing books....

[Lalwendë]

I knew I'd seen something similar to Alan Lee's Dragon helm design before and here it is, The Benty Grange Boar Helmet. (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/britannia/anglo-saxon/suttonhoo/bentygrange.html)

Alan Lee's known for basing his artwork on real life examples, this could be another inspiration. His painting of Tom Bombadil's house is based on Dartmoor cottages and his sketches of the Barrow Downs on real barrows in Orkney.

[davem]

First pic I've found of the deluxe ed here (http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/Children-of-Hurin-Deluxe-Edition.htm)

[Mithalwen]

How thoughtful to bind it in my favourite shade of blue.. I have to have that one now.... :D

[davem]

How thoughtful to bind it in my favourite shade of blue.. I have to have that one now.... :D

They are very nice editions - I have the LotR & Hobbit deluxe. Luckily i won't have to shell out for the CoH deluxe, as Lal has decided to get it :p

I just have to put it on a high shelf to stop her drawing in it......

[Mithalwen]

They are very nice editions - I have the LotR & Hobbit deluxe. Luckily i won't have to shell out for the CoH deluxe, as Lal has decided to get it :p

I just have to put it on a high shelf to stop her drawing in it......

The LOTR was the same shade as my school uniform to which I have an enduring aversion - I was very tempted by the three volume with companion in slipcase but £70 I didn't indulge... since i needed an everyday copy anyway... :( bout time I heard from Ernie and could have a splurge..

[Sardy]

Looks great, and I'll definitely be picking up the deluxe edition. Curious though, will the deluxe edition be missing the beautiful artwork on the cover jacket of the non-delux edition? Or is the jacket just not yet pictured in the photo (or perhaps that artwork will be included inside?)

[davem]

Couple of interesting bits from the Tolkien Library site. First, some of the dates of Alan Lee's booksigning sessions for CoH:

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/Alan-Lee-Signing-Events-Children-of-Hurin.php

& images of the Tolkien calendar & diary for 2008:

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/Children-of-Hurin-FAQ.htm
(scroll to bottom of page)

[Mithalwen]

I wonder if the US edition has American spelling etc ..becasue it is an awful lot cheaper given current exchange rates for the deluxe edition ..might be worth having it shipped ...

[Lalwendë]

I wonder if the US edition has American spelling etc ..becasue it is an awful lot cheaper given current exchange rates for the deluxe edition ..might be worth having it shipped ...

No, I doubt it has US spellings as any American Tolkien books that I've got are still in 'proper' English.

*ducks*

;)

[davem]

Well, bit more on CoH from the Tolkien Library site:

: What will be the table of contents for the children of Hurin?

Contents data are machine generated based on pre-publication provided by the publisher and info was recovered from the Library of Congress. Contents may have variations from the printed book or be incomplete. This table of content comes from The Children of Hurin first proofs (10/1/07 16:15) of the Houghton Mifflin Edition.

CONTENTS
Preface 7
Introduction 13
Note on Pronunciation 28
NARN I CHIN HURIN 31
The Tale of the Children of Húrin
I The Childhood of Húrin 33
II The Battle of Unnumbered Tears 52
III The words of Húrin and Morgoth 61
IV The Departure of Túrin 66
V Túrin in Doriath 80
VI Túrin among the Outlaws 98
VII Of Mîm the Dwarf 121
VIII The Land of Bow and Helm 141
IX The Death of Beleg 151
X Túrin in Nargothrond 159
XI The Fall of Nargothrond 171
XII The Return of Túrin to Dor-lómin 182
XIII The Coming of Túrin into Brethil 192
XIV The Journey of Morwen and Niënor to Nargothrond 198
XV Niënor in Brethil 213
XVI The Coming of Glaurung 221
XVII The Death of Glaurung 234
XVIII The Death of Túrin 248
TABLES 261
Genealogies:
I The House of Hador & the people of Haleth 262
II The House of Bëor 263
III The princes of the Noldor 264
APPENDIX 265
(1) The Evolution of the Great Tales 267
(2) The Composition of the Text 281
LIST OF NAMES 291
Note on the map 319


Page
here (http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/Children-of-Hurin-FAQ.htm)

[davem]

And the first painting from CoH - Beleg departs Menegroth
here (http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/images/children-of-hurin-images/Beleg_Departs_Menegroth.jpg)

Oh, & a Countdown Timer to the publication date!!! (http://www.tolkien.co.uk/)

[Mithalwen]

Thanks Dave,


I am really getting quite excited about this ..... after all it is my first chance to get a first edition Tolkien ..and maybe my last.....

[Lalaith]

So it ends with the death of Turin, rather than the death of Hurin?

Oh.

[davem]

So it ends with the death of Turin, rather than the death of Hurin?

Oh.

Looks like. Possibly CT felt that The Wanderings of Hurin might have felt like a bit of an anti-climax. I suspect CT will give a synopsis of it in the Intro or Appendices though.

And btw, Tolkien Society members can buy both versions (standard & deluxe) editions of CoH signed by Alan Lee - good excuse to join up & support the only registered Tolkien charity, set up to promote Tolkien's work. And you get a bi-monthy magazine (Amon Hen) & an annual Journal (Mallorn).

[Maglor]

Very excited about this.

I'm wondering (though certainly not complaining) from whence came this wealth of material that comprises a narrative of, by my count, approximately 227 pages when the Narn clocks in at fewer than 100. And all done apparently "without distortion or invention"? Interesting.

Though I'm slighly disappointed to find that the tale may not come "full circle" with the death of Hurin, despite the stylistic needs for cropping it out. I wonder what Christopher will say about it in his notes included in the publication.

[lindil]

maglor: I'm wondering (though certainly not complaining) from whence came this wealth of material that comprises a narrative of, by my count, approximately 227 pages when the Narn clocks in at fewer than 100.I recall from UT notes that CJRT said something to the effect of: " most of the Silmarillion versions of the tale of turin, where compressed from the UT length versions. So every time he sends you back to the Silm in the UT footnotes, that should all be inculded now in non-compressed form.

He may have found new material- post HoME XII.

just finished looking at the info on Amazon.uk. CJRT's process sounds like it was a close cousin to our own methods in TFTE forums.

Hopefully there are more 'final edition' Silm chapters on the way.

[the guy who be short]

Hmm. I make CT's version 230 pages.

The UT version is 112 pages + 11 pages from the Silm (Between Of Mim and The Return of Turin to Dor-Lomin in UT) plus about 12 pages from the Notes in UT. Which is 135 pages - in paperback.

I don't have HoME and I don't remember how much extra material is in there, but it does look like we'll be getting 100 extra pages from somewhere or other.

[Mithalwen]

Well a lot depends on type setting ..... my editions take it up to about 175 in paperback and small type - I think there is more in HoME and CT is likely to be thorough with his notes and appendices ..but a change of font could account for a lot...

[davem]

And add in 8 colour plates & 25 b&w illustrations.......that's another 30 odd pages.....

[Maglor]

Hmm. I make CT's version 230 pages.

The UT version is 112 pages + 11 pages from the Silm (Between Of Mim and The Return of Turin to Dor-Lomin in UT) plus about 12 pages from the Notes in UT. Which is 135 pages - in paperback.

I don't have HoME and I don't remember how much extra material is in there, but it does look like we'll be getting 100 extra pages from somewhere or other.


My 227 was a rough approximation based on the Table of Contents previously posted (The Tables start on 261 so I took one off from that and subtracted 33, the page on which "The Childhood Of Hurin" begins). But no matter how you slice it, it's 220+ pages worth of the actual narrative, apart from the pages taken for illustrations (which I'd forgotten about--thanks davem).

My version of the Narn has the fluid story as under 100 pages, and about 20 more if you include the notes and appendix. Of course, font makes a difference as well.

In any case, I'm interested to see the stuff that is "new" or expanded, because there has to be some to reach the apparent length we've been given.

[Mithalwen]

"So in conclusion : Many parts of the text are essentially the same as those that appear in other works (and particularly "Unfinished Tales"), other parts will be new except for those readers who have read in detail the History of Middle Earth.
The text as a whole can be said to be "new" as it is a recomposition of published texts and other "pieces" that weren't published previously. A completed puzzle, in a sense."

Maglor:

This is a quote from an interview with Christopher's son Adam linked by Cof7A in post 36 of this thread . So nothing much new to those who have read HoME but newly presented as an entity.. but the article is well worth reading...

[davem]

According to the Tolkien.co.uk website countdown timer http://www.tolkien.co.uk/ the book will be published in (at time of writing) 26 days 1 hour & 15 minutes - ie at 11pm.

Can we expect a Harry Potter like late night opening at the bookstores, with queuing fans dressed up in their M-e costumes?

[Mithalwen]

Proabably best not to go as spellbound Nienor fleeing from the Orc attack ;) ..bit chilly...

[davem]

hmmm...I've noticed that in order to see the timer you need javascript enabled. You can see the timer as a banner on the Tolkien Library website though - always good for updates on Tolkien stuff http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/

[Lalwendë]

The World Wide Launch of the Children of Hurin is being held on 17th April at Waterstone's, Piccadilly, London. 10am - 6pm.

World Wide Launch
The Children of Hurin
WATERSTONE'S PICCADILLY
Tuesday, 17 April 2007, 10:00AM - 6:00PM
The 30-year wait is over for J.R.R. Tolkien's 'The Children of Hurin'. Join us for a day long extravaganza of readings, competitions & activities, including illustrator Alan Lee signing the novel. Please contact the store for further details.

Further details: 02078512400

Ooooooh! :cool:

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"to publish the version he probably wishes went in the Silmarillion proper."

No, he doesn't. He has always wished to publish it as a standalone book; but the Sil. proper was always viewed (by JRRT and CT both) as a compendium, a rather compressed history, and this is precisely what JRRT produced when he wrote a deliberately abridged version of the later Narn into the Grey Annals.

[davem]

Well, ok, not quite. But three copies of the Deluxe ed. signed by Christopher Tolkien & Alan Lee:

More here:

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_...n_Release_Party

& the entry form here

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/form.html
__________________

[davem]

BTW I note from a post by one of the organisers of the contest over on the LotR Fanatics Plaza that the 'code' is 'Hurin' & the 'answer' is 'signed'.

[Hyarion]

Dang, davem beat me to it :)

Not sure about you but the first link doesn't work for me:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_Children_of_H%C3%BArin_Release_Party

[davem]

Dang, davem beat me to it :)

Not sure about you but the first link doesn't work for me:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_Children_of_H%C3%BArin_Release_Party

No- it doesn't work for me now, either. Thanks for the updated link.

[Sardy]

From: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070325/ennew_afp/entertainmentbritain

New Tolkien book to be published next month: report

LONDON (AFP) - An unfinished book by "Lord of the Rings" author J.R.R. Tolkien, which was completed by his son, will go on sale on next month, a newspaper said.

ADVERTISEMENT

"The Children of Hurin", which Tolkien began in 1918, will be in bookshops on April 17, the Independent on Sunday added. The author's son, Christopher, spent 30 years completing the story from the many drafts produced by his father.

Publisher HarperCollins is keeping exact details of the story under close wraps but its description as "an epic story of adventure, tragedy, fellowship and heroism" will be familiar to the legions of Tolkien fans.

Artist Alan Lee has provided 25 pencil sketches and eight paintings for the book.

Lee won an Oscar for art direction on Peter Jackson's "The Return of the King", the third blockbuster film based on the "Lord of Rings" trilogy that brought the stories to a worldwide audience.

"The Children of Hurin" is the first "new" Tolkien book since a collection of his works -- "The Silmarillion" -- was published posthumously in 1977, four years after the writer's death. It was also edited by Christopher Tolkien.

The chairman of the Tolkien Society, Chris Crawshaw, was quoted by the Independent on Sunday as saying: "It ('The Children of Hurin') would probably make a very good movie, if anyone can secure the film rights."

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"The Children of Hurin", which Tolkien began in 1918, will be in bookshops on April 17, the Independent on Sunday added. The author's son, Christopher, spent 30 years completing the story from the many drafts produced by his father.

Publisher HarperCollins is keeping exact details of the story under close wraps...

Don't you love the press?

(Just in case there are any newbies reading this, JRRT worked on the Narn i*Chin Hurin between about 1955 and 1959, although the earliest version of Turin's story was written as part of The Book of Lost Tales during or just after WWI. Christopher Tolkien has only been working on this particular book for about 2 years, although he has been editing his father's papers generally for over 30. And of course "details of the story" have been well-known since 1980, if not 1977).

[davem]

http://tolkiennews.net/article.php?story=20070327164529601

Barnes & Noble in New York were originally limiting sales of CoH signed by Christopher Tolkien & Alan Lee to five copies per person. They've now reduced it to two copies per person.

So how many copies have been signed - one assumes that it was a good few dozen, if not a few score, if B&N could make so many signed copies available to each customer - if they only had 10 or 20 copies surely they would have set a limit of one per person.

The other thing that I personally find deeply annoying is that this seems to be the only place (apart from the Tolkien Library competition linked to above) where copies signed by CT & AL will be available. So it would seem that B&N have bought up all the signed copies for their customers.

Now, this seems deeply wrong - & I'm not being chauvinistic here - most of us fans (even in the US) do not live in, or have access to B&N in New York on that day. It strikes me that 'market forces' have played a very nasty part in this & it leaves a bit of a nasty taste in the mouth......

Of course, it may be that other places have copies signed by both CT & AL, but I've not heard of it.

I didn't want anything mar the appearance of this major work, but this is not fair - imo.

I'm grateful for the chance to get a copy (however slim that chance may be) via the efforts of the Tolkien Library/Tolkien Gateway, but the idea that the rest of us have to take our chances in a competition while New Yorkers can stroll into B&N & pick a couple off the shelf seems too wrong for words...

[Hyarion]

davem, thanks for the link ;)

I believe Megan of Houghton Mifflin stated the number of copies was in the hundreds, but not thousands. I would assume these were split between HM and HC, which would have me guess at a max of 500 total, 250 for HM (if they were split evenly), but I don't know if HM would give them all to B&N.

I think the limit of 5 per person was simply a B&N standard and was not considered for the specific event or based on how many were available, and then when all those phone calls started pouring in they began to realize what the demand would be like :)

I definitely think there is going to be more than 10 or 20, but I can't imagine more than 200/250. Which means if you're past number 100 in line, you won't have much luck.

The fact that there haven't been any other announced events makes me think the number is so small, that they didn't bother giving some away in LA or some place as well, so it could very well be they have more like 100 to give away.

However, our copies are from HarperCollins, not Houghton Mifflin, so this leads me to believe that HC still has their share, why they haven't announced anything is beyond me, as I haven't heard of any other events either.

I'm in the same boat as you regarding feeling a bit upset about this whole situation. I've had people from NY tell me they will be going to B&N, and they saw the films but haven't read the books yet...so obviously these copies are probably not going to be distributed to the biggest fans. And selling for loads on eBay is simply going to disperse them to the rich.

I think the other 2 copies we give away will be based on a trivia contest, or at least one will be, that way at least those who know a lot about the stories will have a higher chance of winning.

Best of luck in getting one ;)

[davem]

Hyarion I can see, as you say, some very rich collectors ending up with most of the signed copies - which seems completely unfair. These copies should go to serious collectors (& while I would love a copy myself I just feel that people like my friend geordie over at the Plaza ought to have a copy signed by CT, given the amount of time & effort he's put into his collection - though if one of your copies is available to the winner of a Tolkien trivia competition he has a pretty good chance!).

I wish this part of the launch (small though it be) had been better organised by the publishers. This is a unique event in publishing, & the appearance of this book is so significant to so many, that to simply 'dump' so many of the signed copies in one store seems WRONG.


Mind you, what you say about Harper Collins having some gets me thinking - they are about to launch their re-vamped Tolkien.co.uk site .... might we expect a 'Site launch competition, with a few hundred signed copies on offer?????

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I'm reassured to hear that, Hyarion. I agree with davem that there are some people who are so dedicated to Tolkien that they seem to deserve to have the latest collectables. A trivia competition seems a better way of finding out who they are than blind luck. However, market forces being what they are, I can see that only the the rich or the very dedicated will be able to get hold of one of these once the initial round of sales and competitions is over.

Naturally I've not been working on my Tolkien collection long enough to count among the meritorious, but I'll be taking every chance to get hold of a signed copy anyway for obvious reasons. I doubt that CRT will be available to sign any copies I might buy in the near future.

It's tempting to think of a HarperCollins competition to give away some goodies. Judging by some of the items that crop up on collectors' sites they keep back some rare Tolkien publications, like signed first impressions of LR, but such retention would still leave them with a good few dozen copies to give away or offer for sale at a higher rate. Only time will tell what they mean to do.

[Sauron the White]

There seem to be several stores which are making available singed copies by Alan Lee the illustrator. That does not seem to be the problem. However, the sought after signature seems to be that of Christopher Tolkien. The solution to this lack of availability rests completely in his hands. There will be as many signed bookplates available as CT deems there will be. Mr. Tolkien is in his 80's and probably is not eager to sign thousands of bookplates in time for the release date in Mid April.

As a solution perhaps he could be convinced to sing more bookplates over time, say a few hundred a month and make them available as needed selling just one or two to collectors. This would keep availability at a high level while keeping the scalpers at bay and keeping the price affordable. In addition to his fine work as editor and keeper of the flame, this would be a great service to his public.

[davem]

As a solution perhaps he could be convinced to sing more bookplates over time, say a few hundred a month and make them available as needed selling just one or two to collectors. This would keep availability at a high level while keeping the scalpers at bay and keeping the price affordable. In addition to his fine work as editor and keeper of the flame, this would be a great service to his public.

Possibly - though that would decrease the rarity value of signed copies. My own solution would have been for the books/bookplates to have been made available via the Publishers websites - either for direct sale or as prizes. As I said, the most annoying aspect of this is that if you happen to be in New York you can line up & pick a couple of signed editions off the shelf & if you live elsewhere you have virtually no chance - when did Big Apple residents become the 'chosen few' with special priority over the rest of us 'lesser' mortals?

However such a thing has happened before. At the 1992 Tolkien Centenary Conference in Oxford attendees were each given a cassette recording by Christopher Tolkien of 'The Homecoming of Beortnoth' which have never been made available elsewhere - but they at least went to serious fans (well to serious fans who could afford to attend a week long Tolkien Conference........). At the 2005 Conference we got a plastic pen with 'Tolkien 2005' on it.

[Sauron the White]

davem - what is the goal here? You mention rarity of signed copies. Of course the law and supply and demand will raise its head - ugly or otherwise and the smaller the number of signed copies the greater their cost. But is that of any concern to a true Tolkien collector who wants a signed copy on their shelf? For me I really could not care less about how much something is worth unless I am purchasing it and have to shell out the cash. I imagine my heirs will care a great deal when they have to dispose of all this stuff - but until then it all stays here and I enjoy it. It matters not to me if there are 250 signed copies of COH or 2,500. It matters not to me if they are worth the issue price of under thirty dollars or if someone on ebay manages to get a thousand dollars for one. I merely want one signed copy to go with the rest of my collection. I imagine many others are in the same boat.

[davem]

It matters not to me if they are worth the issue price of under thirty dollars or if someone on ebay manages to get a thousand dollars for one. I merely want one signed copy to go with the rest of my collection. I imagine many others are in the same boat.

Of course - yet there will never be 2,500 signed copies. There will inevitably be a limit & because of that the ones there are should be made more widely available. Certainly it would be nice if every copy was signed. Yet rarity is special. To own something rare appeals to our natural egotism if nothing else - but I think there is more to it than that. I have books that were owned by Michael Tolkien, given him by his father. No-one else has them because they're unique & therefore 'special'. Its the chance discovery, the 'odd' coincidences that lead to such things, that make them special. The chase, the possibility of not obtaining them for oneself, & the holding of them when you eventually do get them, is part of what makes it special.

When I heard about the books I have I wanted them, & the whole process of contacting the seller, waiting with anticipation for a reply, sending off the cheque, even worrying whether they would get lost in the post( :eek: ) was all part of the excitement. Even the disappointment that I'd have felt if I hadn't got them added to the whole thing.

Having so many copies available to so few people which are innaccessible to the rest of us is unfair. I want all fans to have a fair & equal chance of getting the signed copies that there are. That way I'd mind less if I didn't get one myself - because I'd know I'd had as much chance as anyone else, & that the ones who did get them didn't get them just because of where they happened to live, or enough money to buy them on ebay.

[Sauron the White]

davem - WOW!!! You have books that came from the Tolkien family. That is extremely impressive and I appreciate your telling of the tale of how you obtained them. It helps me understand your position.

There is one thing in your post which seems to be crucial. You say

I want all fans to have a fair & equal chance of getting the signed copies that there are.
The fly in the ointment is always how you define these things. What to you is fair and equal chance? Can there ever really be such things?

[davem]

The fly in the ointment is always how you define these things. What to you is fair and equal chance? Can there ever really be such things?

No, but it could be fairer than it seems it will be.

As to the books - I've told the story elsewhere on the Downs. And the dealer who bought Michael Tolkien's library still has books of his for sale (or had last time I was in touch), so they aren't hard to get hold of - hence, owning such books is not a rare thing, but its special to own such things when there's only one (or a few) of each. I'm sure the dealer would like to sell them on to anyone who's interested - its his business after all, so anyone who's interested can own something with a family connection fairly easily & relatively cheaply (the six volume set of Gibbon was £100).

In fact, here you go
http://www.abebooks.com/home/NEILEWART/

And a couple of Tolkien books owned by Michael Tolkien here
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?bx=off&sts=t&ds=30&vci=382655&bi=0&y=0&kn=tolkien&x=0&sortby=2

[Mithalwen]

Adam Tolkien is going to be at the Waterstones all day launch thang :D

[davem]

Adam Tolkien is going to be at the Waterstones all day launch thang :D

So are you going still going as Nienor?

[davem]

http://tolkiennews.net/article.php?story=2007032812464431

FREE signed bookplates for the first fifty people through doors at Waterstones in London.

I like to feel this is all down to my protest here on the Downs over the matter.

However, New York & London aren't the only places where Tolkien fans live, so its only a slight improvement on a bad situation....

so far

[Balrog]

At the 1992 Tolkien Centenary Conference in Oxford attendees were each given a cassette recording by Christopher Tolkien of 'The Homecoming of Beortnoth' which have never been made available elsewhere - but they at least went to serious fans (well to serious fans who could afford to attend a week long Tolkien Conference........).

Wrong. http://www.tolkienshop.com/contents/en-uk/d42.html says:

Christopher Tolkien reads Beorhtnoth's Death and Ofermod € 17,95
The cd is introduced by Christopher Tolkien. A nice recording Tokien made in his study of the Medieval poem. He makes his own sound effects (and you can hear a car going through the street...)

True, it's not an original cassette, but the recording itself is the important part, isn't it? It's very interesting to hear Tolkien chant part of the Dies Irea.

[davem]

Wrong. http://www.tolkienshop.com/contents/en-uk/d42.html says:



True, it's not an original cassette, but the recording itself is the important part, isn't it? It's very interesting to hear Tolkien chant part of the Dies Irea.

Well, that's put me in my place. However, I'm not sure about the exact legality of the particular CD in question. Tolkien did record Beortnoth for the BBC in the fifties, so I'm not sure its the same recording I spoke about - though it may be. Thanks for the info anyway.

[Lalwendë]

I wouldn't lay bets on the fact that those first in line will include a large number of those hoping to 'sell on' as quickly as possible. *cough* eBay *cough*

There's currently an issue in the UK with people snapping up sought after gig and festival tickets and selling them on - about 400,000 people registered for Glastonbury tickets and the site only holds about 100,000 people. An enormous number of these tickets then get put up on eBay or other sites (not just to blame eBay to be fair!) and those who are real fans have to pay the inflated prices or simply not have what they want.

So yes, I'm annoyed too. Mostly because I can see what will happen... :rolleyes:

[davem]

The Bookseller reports on Harper Collins plans for promoting CoH here (http://www.thebookseller.com/control/?p=6&a=36306)

HarperCollins will be advertising the book in Earls Court around the London Book Fair, and working in partnership with the Telegraph over the weekend of 21st and 22nd April. The Telegraph partnership will include full-page advertorials, ad placements throughout the whole newspaper, and a competition to "return to Middle-earth" by winning a trip to New Zealand. This will be supported by a month-long campaign on the Telegraph website, that includes a specially created Tolkien microsite, run-of-site advertising, advertorials, downloads and interviews.

Publicity will see a slew of reviews, features and interviews, including a major feature in the Sunday Times Culture magazine the weekend before launch, and interviews on news programmes giving the story behind the new book.

HarperCollins is also planning blanket targeting of the online Tolkien fan base through promotions with key fansites, search portals and social network sites, and a bespoke online PR campaign. There will be a dedicated website at www.tolkien.co.uk.

An all-day event at Waterstone's Piccadilly will launch the book, attended by the author's grandson, Adam Tolkien, and featuring a talk by Alan Lee. A leading "Lord of the Rings" actor will read extracts from the new book, and characters from "The Lord of the Rings" stage show will also be present. Lee will be giving talks and signing books at selected bookshops around publication as well.

[davem]

Sunday Times article here http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article1613657.ece

[narfforc]

Alan Lee will be at the Moreton-in-Marsh Exhibition along with Ted Nasmith on the 20th and 21st of this month, I will get my book signed there, along with the last version of The Silmarillion which Ted has given his marvellous interpretation to.

[Neithan Tol Turambar]

I think that certainly profit is the motive. Would J.R.R. Tolkien approve? Not to changes of any kind, since we know he carefully pondered every word, to see if it harmonized with the vision he had 'to report'.
Tolkien wanted foremost to entertain. Knowing that his manuscript would now do so, and that very many of us long to enter his world and view new vistas, he would concede with reservations.
I think it should only be done so long as there is a clear differentiation between the text written by J.R.R. Tolkien and that of Mr. Christopher. I do not at all support a text that gives no indication of where the Father ends and the Son begins. Otherwise I am tempted to believe that the whole thing is a fraud, not written by either Tolkien, and we will see that it contains shallow and swift scenes and heavy dialogue, and no doubt will form the basis of a new screneplay. After writing this and just now deliberating on the subject, I would say no.
If we still have questions and long to penetrate deeper into Tolkiens world, then let us become still, and silent, and meditate on this, and see if to us, like to Tolkien, that it might be revealed. Perhaps the desire for more is because we have not fully comprehended the grandeur beauty of what we have.

[Bêthberry]

Sunday Times article here http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article1613657.ece

Very fine article there, davem, with some valuable observations about Tolkien's work. I can imagine some fans having hairy fits over the comment that Tolkien was not a writer, but there are some very intriguing avenues of thought to persue there.

Thanks for linking.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Neithan:

You have Christopher Tolkien all wrong. He's most emphatically NOT in it for the money. If he were he could easily have pulled an Audrey Seuss long since and milked the cash cow shamelessly. Instead, he has opposed (or tried to) virtually all forms of commercial exploitation (although he has no control over what Saul Zaentz licenses). And there's no consideration of a screenplay, since the film rights to CoH will only be sold over CRT's dead body.

The Estate website says that CoH will be "entirely in the author's own words;" my source indicates that this includes a small amount of narrative material which has come to light since Unfinished Tales was published a quarter-century ago.

[Neithan Tol Turambar]

I admit that my knowledge of these outside the box subjects is limited. I know that Tolkien pondered every word, and I do not read ANY of CT's middle Earth history because much of that material was rejected by Tolkien himself as it did not entirely harmonize with his inner vision. Therefore, in order not to pollute my grasp of the pure and true meaning of Tolkiens revelation I read only what I feel in confidence that Tolkien himself would have been satisfied with, having reached that final developmental stage whereat the text harmonized with the chill that ran up and down his spine when he first spoke the word, "Earendil". For I am concerned, and if I daresay, gifted, above all, with meaning. Most people here ask, 'what did Tolkien say?' I ask, 'what did Tolkien mean?' But thank you, perhaps you have saved the gentlemen from the Inquisition I plan for after I succeed in taking over the world.

[Maglor]

Maglor:

This is a quote from an interview with Christopher's son Adam linked by Cof7A in post 36 of this thread . So nothing much new to those who have read HoME but newly presented as an entity.. but the article is well worth reading...

Wow...sorry it took so long to respond to this. And then the thread closed, but it's back now, so...

I did read the interview mentioned (it was a good one too) and I did see the quote that you posted, that it is essentially a completed puzzle more than a fresh retelling.

But this quote (from the same article)...

"Many parts of the text will be - if not identical - recognizable to the knowledgeable reader, but there are also pieces that have never appeared before." (emphasis mine)

...gave me the impression that there will be *some* new material, even if it is minimal. I agree with what everyone has said already, that it's basically the same story in the most complete sense, but I still think we may be treated to a little new material, those nothing so large as to alter the plot significantly. Just minor touches, I'm guessing.

But we'll find out soon, won't we? ;)

[Lalwendë]

Children of Hurin is now Number 3 in the Amazon.co.uk bestseller list! Just behind Harry Potter!

:cool:

[Lalwendë]

Live near Cambridge? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=516925&postcount=4)

Blackwells Events (http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/jsp/bobuk_editorial/whats_on.jsp#Sheffield)

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Sorry to hark back to conversation past, but I've noticed that comments on that Sunday Times article have been posted by Michael Drout and Verlyn Flieger. It's a shame that Tom Shippey didn't join them, but you can't have the opinion of every professor in the world on one article.

I think that their comments bear careful reading. The Sunday Times reviewer, as is becoming all too common with that organ, has done just enough research to appear knowledgeable, but not enough to provide an accurate idea of his subject. Less forgivably, he spends half the article commenting on the literary failings of LR without reference to the book he's supposedly reviewing. This is as good an example as you'll get of an apology to the in-crowd for liking something that's out: Appleyard doesn't want to lose his grown-up, serious-reviewer credentials by approving something written by Tolkien, who rather tautologically wrote fairy-tales about Elves. Incidentally, I'm not sure that Hugo Dyson would have published his opinion in quite those terms, and I'm reasonably sure that he wouldn't have been entirely happy to see his words in a Times review. The deleted expletive descends to the coarse prudery so beloved of our dear scarlet press, and so symptomatic of the provincial, petit-bourgeois mentality that self-styled intellectuals take such great pains to renounce.

The Wagnerian reference is another giveaway: Wagner's is a name that automatically implies that those who invoke him are intellectuals who understand music. As is often the case, though, Appleyard's invocation of Wagner reveals a lack of understanding of both the composer and Tolkien, not to mention the real relationship between their works. I expect that Wagner here is used as shorthand for an operatic style of presentation (which is also the epic style of presentation, which predates opera) unless the reviewer is so badly informed as to think that Wagner actually invented those stories himself. All in all, it confirms my general impression that newspaper literary reviews tell one more about the reviewer than the work reviewed, which renders them useless save as a beginner's guide to being a pretentious bore.

Anyway, since better people than I have pointed out the deficiencies of that article there remains little more for me to say than that Michael Drout promises to post on his site his own critique of Tolkien's style, which, since M.D. actually knows what he's talking about, should be worth a look. This pointless babble from News International I can do without: what isn't obvious or derivative in it is wrong.

I do not read ANY of CT's middle Earth history because much of that material was rejected by Tolkien himself as it did not entirely harmonize with his inner vision.

There's no easy way to say this, but that rules out reading The Silmarillion as well. CRT put that together from the very material that yielded The History of Middle-earth, even writing some passages himself. There is no pure vision of the Silmarillion material endorsed by JRRT, and even what he rejected can only be inferred from his later revisions. Some parts of the HME were at one time or another under consideration by publishers; some of it had already been published; some of it is taken from lectures that Tolkien delivered annually to students. The old Fall of Gondolin was probably more publicised before 1977 than anything about Hurin, since it was read to the Oxford essay club (strictly speaking, a forum for academic papers) by its author. It's more complicated than Tolkien rejecting something and CRT publishing it later; rather JRRT left behind a lot of drafts, many of them incomplete, and little or no indication of what he wanted to retain or reject. Yes, the LR material in volumes 6-9 was definitely never intended to see the light of day, but even that is a stage in the evolution of a grand idea that never fully emerged. Part of the reason for that was that there simply wasn't a single inner vision, rather there were many, each of which informed particular stories or phases of development. The picture will never be complete, but that's no reason not to appreciate each fragment on its own terms, since each has value of itself. Moreover, since JRRT specifically appointed CRT to publish, withhold or destroy his unpublished works at his own discretion, we might regard JRRT's approval as given to all of the posthumous publications. I don't say that this is definitely the case, but it's one way of looking at things; in fact, all that I can say about this with any certainty is that HME contains most of Tolkien's best writing, both verse and prose; make of that what you will. With any luck The Children of Hurin will give a glimpse of that to readers who would never get through the History.

As for asking what Tolkien said, I consider it the first and most important step to finding a meaning: unless you know exactly what was said you can't hope to interpret what was meant. Meaning is an elusive enough beast even without the additional cover of misquotation and paraphrase.

On the 17th I'll be doing something; possibly I'll be trying to buy a copy of the new book, but more likely I won't. It isn't going anywhere.

[Lalaith]

Appleyard is quite well-respected as a journalist, though - apart from taking the Murdoch dollar. I was surprised (as I've already mentioned on the Flieger thread - so I also apologise for referring to conversations/links past) how much of this article he'd actually lifted from the original AN Wilson piece in the Telegraph, back in 2001. Wilson did a biography of Lewis and does seem to be a Tolkien fan, albeit a critical one. Here, the expletives are not deleted. Interesting that the Telegraph was less prudish six years ago than the Sunday Times is today. The Wilson piece is much better, but then Wilson, although I often disagree with him, is very smart.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2001/11/24/bfanw24.xml&page=1

[Neithan Tol Turambar]

Wow Man! Like, I had to read that twice!
The Silmarillion feels right. Refering to Strider as Trotter feels wrong.
The continuity of the Silmarillion. There's an inter-connectedness and a common diction that is recogonized, a word usage, diction, that is matured, grown more serious and plausible, where at other times in the more detailed, incomplete renditions, which I still find illuminating at points and troubling at others, in the Unfinished and the Lost Tales, there is a change in tone and diction that makes me feel seperated in a way. I cannot verify all my opinions, and I challenge men such as your self to debates, and want to provoke attacks on myself, not because I believe I will always win, but because sometimes, I know I will lose. And that I find that very thought provoking and it compels me to think in new paradigms.
I know about CT and the Silmarillion buddy. You see, I have a bit of a mean-streak. And whatever respect I had for one died with the other.
And: I enjoyed your subtle cheapshots at the end. Very respectful criticism, just perfectly within the bounds of the acceptable. What can I say? I tell myself that it would only be vanity at the most that would compell me to reference books, check indexes, and make perfect qoutes and accurate refrences to base each expostulated supposition, which becomes, in effect, presupposition, thanks either to my virtuous humility, or my scholarly laziness. You decide. Either way, it is the missing scale in me belly. Aim at it my good man, aim at it!
I'm the toughest, smartest, best looking [sweet ol' boy] I ever met, and don't care what anyone says, I know I ain't ever lost a fight in my life!!!!

[Bêthberry]

I was surprised (as I've already mentioned on the Flieger thread - so I also apologise for referring to conversations/links past) how much of this article he'd actually lifted from the original AN Wilson piece in the Telegraph, back in 2001. Wilson did a biography of Lewis and does seem to be a Tolkien fan, albeit a critical one. Here, the expletives are not deleted. Interesting that the Telegraph was less prudish six years ago than the Sunday Times is today. The Wilson piece is much better, but then Wilson, although I often disagree with him, is very smart.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/mai...nw24.xml&page=1

Quite. I would suspect that, should that little bit of "journalistic appropriation" be pointed out in arenas that care about such things, Mr. Sunday Times flack might find himself in a bit of a tight spot. But then, I'm not thoroughly familiar with the ethics of Murdoch papers, being more familiar with those of the Lord of Black Harbour--no, um, it's Cross Harbour.


This pointless babble from News International I can do without: what isn't obvious or derivative in it is wrong.


But very sadly he's achieved what yellow journalism is all about: he's got highly respected scholars replying to him, attention all over the internet, and fans in an uproar. In the twisted values of rags, he's got his minutes of fame. His article has drawn more readers to the online paper. He's made the advertisers happy. Frankly, he sounds very much like some members of online forums who think that scruffles are what it's all about. And the more we reply to this fellow, the more his puppet masters will crow. Although I commend Squatter for not naming him. Cleverly done!

Laliath, your link here isn't working for me, to the Wilson piece, although I read it when you linked elsewhere.

[lindil]

"I do not read ANY of CT's middle Earth history because much of that material was rejected by Tolkien himself as it did not entirely harmonize with his inner vision."

Newsflash: CJRT edited the Silm. sometimes heavily, sometimes lightly. Some sections [thingols death are pure CJRT fan-fiction]. You want tolkien's 'purest' silmarillion? Better go buy HoME X & XI, as they are:


JRRT's last revised drafts of the Silm material
written after the LotR, his craft only got better w/ age
have much more material than the more 'remote' compressed Pre-LotR summaries CJRT favored in his SilM.
Ultimately every Silmarillion reader who wishes to dive deeper than CJRT's Silmlite has to go to the virtually unedited [in terms of the texts being altered or polished or redacted] volumes of the History.

[Lalwendë]

The same Christopher chosen by JRRT himself to be his literary executor and the same Christopher who his father decided was the one person most qualified to handle his unfinished work?

I have to wonder who would have been better qualified to write The Silmarillion?

I'm quite happy that the father's choice, being one he was happy with, was the right choice and am also quite happy to enjoy Christopher's lifelong work. None of us can say with certainty what Tolkien did and did not want including from his jumble of drafts and notions in The Silmarillion, but we can say that Christopher would know what to include better than any of us could.

[Lalaith]

Thanks for pointing out the dud link, Beth. I've fixed it.

[davem]

Just seen over on the Tolkien.co.uk forum that Foyles bookshop in London have broken the embargo & have copies of CoH on sale now.

[davem]

Amazon.com interview with Alan Lee - with pics http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618894640/ref=amb_link_4666562_17/102-0153139-7658511?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1ST9N00Z5HX9YH9FB2E4&pf_rd_t=1401&pf_rd_p=284051501&pf_rd_i=1000072721

[davem]

Middle column, about half way down the page.

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/

And a bit from the Independent: http://comment.independent.co.uk/leading_articles/article2390841.ece

'pre-teen market' :rolleyes:

[davem]

Anyway, since better people than I have pointed out the deficiencies of that article there remains little more for me to say than that Michael Drout promises to post on his site his own critique of Tolkien's style, which, since M.D. actually knows what he's talking about, should be worth a look. This pointless babble from News International I can do without: what isn't obvious or derivative in it is wrong.

Well, Drout's critique of Tolkien's style is up. http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2007/04/how-to-critique-tolkiens-prose-style-at.html
Not sure I agree with him actually. I don't think the descriptions of landscape/nature are at all excessive, & am I the only one who actually likes the fox?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Better go buy HoME X & XI, as they are:
JRRT's last revised drafts of the Silm material;
written after the LotR, his craft only got better w/ age;
have much more material than the more 'remote' compressed Pre-LotR summaries CJRT favored in his SilM.

Erm- the vast bulk of the 1977 text is from the post-Lord of ther Rings period: the Grey Annals, the Annals of Aman, and the early- and late-50's phases of revision to the Quenta Silmarillion. CRT only reverted to earlier material when there simply wasn't anything later to work from.

CRT's "Silmlite" (as you sneeringly call it) also has structure and pacing, something the Professor had lost in his piecemeal rewritings. (This is also a major flaw in this forum's Billy Idol* Silmarillion project).

* More, more, more!

[Aiwendil]

CRT's "Silmlite" (as you sneeringly call it) also has structure and pacing, something the Professor had lost in his piecemeal rewritings.

Structure and pacing are subjective things.

[davem]

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/fiction/article1649664.ece

Very positive - but what else would one expect by one of the authors of The Ring of Words?

[Lalwendë]

We had this one before?

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/news/article2390834.ece

[Child of the 7th Age]

A friend of mine is the collection development specialist at a large library system. She already has the book in her hands. Apparently the publisher is already shipping out the book to some large library systems. This is the regular edition put out by Houghton Mifflin.

I've also read on another website that there is a strange variant that has already surfaced in a few samples of the regular edition....one section of the book is bound upside down. Some book people love those kind of strange quirks and try to search them down. Not me. I'll take one bound in the regular way so I can read it.

[Maglor]

I'll take one bound in the regular way so I can read it.

Hehe...I agree. That's sort of the point, as far as I'm concerned ;) .


Oh, and someone seriously needs to slap me upside the head. I've been looking at Alan Lee's cover art for months (it's on my desktop, for goodness sakes) and I just now noticed that Turin's sword is black. :o

[Neithan Tol Turambar]

Well, Drout's critique of Tolkien's style is up. http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2007/04/how-to-critique-tolkiens-prose-style-at.html
Not sure I agree with him actually. I don't think the descriptions of landscape/nature are at all excessive, & am I the only one who actually likes the fox?

I want to clown on this drout fellow who criticizes Tolkiens writing. He's not a member is he? If he's not does anyone mind if I find out who he is and then write a scathing denuciation?

[Farael]

Oh, and someone seriously needs to slap me upside the head. I've been looking at Alan Lee's cover art for months (it's on my desktop, for goodness sakes) and I just now noticed that Turin's sword is black. :o

Goodness I had not even realized he was holding his sword, I sort of saw it as an extension of his cloak (am I going blind?)

Then what is he resting his hands on, you slow poke?

Silence you!!

Anyway, it is true... what scene in the story of Turin do you think it represents? It looks to me like Turin is leading his men into battle... but what battle, and which men? we could say he was a "prolific" leader... meaning that he lead so many people... charismatic guy.

[davem]

I want to clown on this drout fellow who criticizes Tolkiens writing. He's not a member is he? If he's not does anyone mind if I find out who he is and then write a scathing denuciation?

He's one of the best informed & most insightful Tolkien scholars around. He co-edits the journal Tolkien Studies & teaches university courses in Tolkien's work.

[davem]

Open Book Sunday 15th @ 4.00pm (available on the 'Listen again' option after broadcast:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/arts/openbook/openbook.shtml

& Loose Ends today @ 6.15 - interview with Alan Lee: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/comedy/looseends.shtml

[Lalaith]

I think they're doing something on Front Row next week as well. (Friday evening radio 4 arts review)

[Bêthberry]

Well, Drout's critique of Tolkien's style is up. http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2007/04/how-to-critique-tolkiens-prose-style-at.html
Not sure I agree with him actually. I don't think the descriptions of landscape/nature are at all excessive, & am I the only one who actually likes the fox?

What's interesting about this entry by Drout is that his critique does not seem to support his general comment. He wonders if Tolkien could have achieved the same effect with fewer words--and then qualifies that wonder with the wonderfully inane comment from the Emperor in Amadeus. And then he quibbles over a few small points, but largely lauds the cited passages.

There would be two ways to consider the claim about excessive landscape description: the wordiness of particular passages (which he counters here) and the dwelling upon landscape so that it features constantly and continuously in the narrative. I suppose he tries to address this latter point when he compares Tolkien positively to Donaldson, but largely he does not addresss this claim.

So, his point that Tolkien's style is meant to create a mythic feel in modern language isn't, to my mind, drawn out well in this entry.

I really have to say, however, that I laud his efforts to bring Old English to a wider audience, especially with those podcasts. I haven't listened to any yet, but I recognise that setting up such a feature speaks highly to his efforts. Imagine setting up podcasts on the Downs, of passages from Tolkien's created languages.

[Lalwendë]

Drout's missed something - there is a strong tradition in British writing (and Art and Music) to bestow the very earth itself with a personality - Tolkien is following in the footsteps of others, and others would follow him. This is why we are given such lengthy descriptions of place, to establish Middle-earth itself as the primary character in this work, and it is the protagonist more than any single character is. Tolkien's works on Middle-earth are ensemble pieces in terms of 'human' characters, but the one constant that everyone fights so hard to dominate, control or save is the land itself. On many occasions it also heaves itself and reasserts its dominance (the sinking of Numenor, the storm on Caradhras, the fog on the Barrow Downs etc).

If you want to find other living landscapes look to Wordsworth, the Brontes, Thomas Hardy, Ted Hughes, Vaughan Williams, Turner, Constable, Goldsworthy...and if you want to read more about this look to Peter Ackroyd's Albion.

Remove the living landscape from Tolkien's work and you will be left with something very different, and with a very different, even meaningless, drive and purpose for all those who live there.

So Drout's missed a trick there. ;) And not even every critic criticises the extensive writing about the land - Ackroyd acknowledges it for one!

And I can't let Drout's criticism of the 'archaic' language pass - a lot of it is anything but odd to me, as I'm used to people who often use 'archaic' English; growing up in Lancashire and living in Yorkshire you hear a lot of 'theeing' and 'thouing' every day, plus some very odd words. I knew right away what Attercops were. Thrawn is not far away from Thrawp. As someone points out in his blog, not everyone speaks the same 'brand' of English. ;)

[Bêthberry]

I don't think he's really missed it, Lal. He's just been, I think, rather rhetorically clever at handling the complaint about landscape description.

After all, once he identifies the complaint about too much description as merely as matter of too many words--a strawman argument--he quite niftilly undercuts that with the Emperor's silly request. Then Drout compares two passages which for the most part he praises highly and even lauds them as suitable for a Hemingway style. He hoists the modern critics on their own ... um, criterion. ;)

I think the one or two small points about wording which he objects to are really intended similarly in the strawman vein, to show that they can easily be dismissed, so that in the end he is able to claim that it is not easy to dismiss or critique Tolkien's style.

I suppose it must be his habit of lecturing--starting out with a, shall we say, hot air balloon, pumping it up for analysis, only to demonstrate how it can be deflated. A bit of a pedagogical trick I would say. But as I said, it leaves the larger question of the role and place of landscape description unexamined.

I'd agree that Tolkien certainly needs to be read alongside Hardy. I was ever so tickled to discover that 'kine', the Old English plural for cow, was still used in Yorkshire in Bronte's day.

Oh, and, I had always had the sense that 'thrawn', because it can also mean "contrary, peevish, perverse, sullen, unpleasant" as well as "twisted" and "crooked", was doing a little bit of foreshadowing for the ents.

But this, as I say, is likely Drout's habit of getting his students to refute his points, thereby actually defending the opposite of what he initially purports. I suppose I shall have to read more of his blog to say definitely though.

[davem]

On the Reviews section 'From the Publisher'

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Children-Hurin-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/product-description/0007246226

Found via Tolkien Gateway. VVV interesting...

And I've just got an email from Amazon that my copy of CoH has been despatched :eek:

EDIT:

What are we to make of Adam's comments here:

Alan was commissioned in 1990 to create the
first-ever illustrated edition of The Lord of the Rings to mark Tolkien's
Centenary, and his 50 watercolour paintings were to prove more influential
than anyone could possibly have imagined, as Alan then spent five years in
New Zealand working as conceptual designer with John Howe for the Peter
Jackson trilogy.

& (It might be compared to a sort of literary
Director's Cut, the long version of the story assembled from all the best
footage available, though my father probably wouldn't welcome the
filmmaking comparison!)

Obviously the family are at war again over the movies
:eek: :p

[Lalwendë]

Mine's been despatched too! :eek:

Bb - don't you think there are enough strawman type arguments though? I get a bit fed up with defending Tolkien myself! And no doubt people like Drout do too! I'm finding myself reading these reviews of CofH expecting to read the usual unpleasantness and the usual accusations and make the usual defences. The existence of critics like Ackroyd who can mention and use Tolkien as an example without feeling any need to make a snide aside suggests that there are some critics outside the Shippey/Flieger specialist academics who can accept Tolkien as a part of culture and give him some respect!

Liking that Adam Tolkien quote about his father and the films - very tongue in cheek about all the folk who amp up the rumours about family rifts over the films ;) Maybe they'll be quiet now?

[Sauron the White]

I would like to be able to take the two film references from Adam Tolkien as a very positive sign. It appears that Adam may well be in the same place Christopher was three decades ago. The fact that he cites Lees work with Jackson by name is positive. The fact that he makes a joke about his fathers feelings for film also shows some very welcome openness.

[davem]

Just seen on the Tolkien.co.uk forum that the words of CT quoted on Adam Tolkien's statement is from the Preface of CoH - & the guy who posted it is the translator of the Croation edition.

EDIT

I found CT's words interesting:

`It is undeniable that there are a very great many readers of The Lord of
the Rings for whom the legends of the Elder Days (as previously published
in varying forms in The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and The History of
Middle-earth) are altogether unknown, unless by their repute as strange and
inaccessible in mode and manner. For this reason it has seemed to me for a
long time that there was a good case for presenting my father's long
version of the legend of the Children of Húrin as an independent work,
between its own covers, with a minimum of editorial presence, and above all
in continuous narrative without gaps or interruptions, if this could be
done without distortion or invention, despite the unfinished state in which
he left some parts of it.

& Adam's unambiguous statement:

The words are one hundred percent J.R.R. Tolkien's,

Its clear that CT is aware that the postumous works he has so far given to the public have a reputation for being 'strange & innaccessible'. Can we take this to imply that CT feels he has not achieved what he set out to do - make his father's great work (The Sil) accessible to the general reader - & especially to many of those who Love LotR & TH? Is this, perhaps, the real reason that he has prepared CoH for the public - he wanted the general reader to have a glimpse of his father's work outside of LotR & TH that is 'accessible'?

Or am I reading too much into CT's statement?

[Lalaith]

Oh, not fair! Mine is still awaiting dispatch... :(

[Mithalwen]

Mine's been despatched too! :eek:

Liking that Adam Tolkien quote about his father and the films - very tongue in cheek about all the folk who amp up the rumours about family rifts over the films ;) Maybe they'll be quiet now?


Gah sinceI have ot work on Tuesday and can't go up to Lunnon.... your saying htat the book has been dispatched has incited me to visit Amazon ..and spend the money saved on the deluxe edition on pre-ordering Mr Baggins and "investing" in the hardback 20th anniversary editionof UT - which I love.. and could I wait for Mr Baggins? No of course not ..so I have 3 lots of delivery charges..... :rolleyes:

[davem]

Gah sinceI have ot work on Tuesday and can't go up to Lunnon.... your saying htat the book has been dispatched has incited me to visit Amazon ..and spend the money saved on the deluxe edition on pre-ordering Mr Baggins and "investing" in the hardback 20th anniversary editionof UT - which I love.. and could I wait for Mr Baggins? No of course not ..so I have 3 lots of delivery charges..... :rolleyes:

The '20th Anniversary edition' is very nice - good quality & matching the recent LotR 50th & Sil hardbacks (as well as the new 70th anniversary Hobbit with fold out maps & such. Only irritating thing is that they insist on calling it the 20th anniversary edition when its actually the 26th anniversary. (I bought UT on the day it was published in 1980 & this one came out last year).

[Mithalwen]

The '20th Anniversary edition' is very nice - good quality & matching the recent LotR 50th & Sil hardbacks (as well as the new 70th anniversary Hobbit with fold out maps & such. Only irritating thing is that they insist on calling it the 20th anniversary edition when its actually the 26th anniversary. (I bought UT on the day it was published in 1980 & this one came out last year).


Well I am my second pb edition so I can justify a hardback at £12..... Ideally I woul dlove everything in HB but..... Home it seems would be about £400 I think

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Its clear that CT is aware that the postumous works he has so far given to the public have a reputation for being 'strange & innaccessible'. Can we take this to imply that CT feels he has not achieved what he set out to do - make his father's great work (The Sil) accessible to the general reader - & especially to many of those who Love LotR & TH? Is this, perhaps, the real reason that he has prepared CoH for the public - he wanted the general reader to have a glimpse of his father's work outside of LotR & TH that is 'accessible'?

Or am I reading too much into CT's statement?

No, that's exactly the case. Christopher views this book as a bridge for the ordinary reader from the Lord of the Rings to The Silmarillion, and felt that the general public could use at least part of his father's prized First Age legendarium in a form less 'rebarbative' (his word) than The Silmarillion. He was also partly motivated by the perception that, in the wake of the films, 'Tolkien' and 'Lord of the Rings' had become nearly synonymous, although his desire to publish a complete Narn dates back many years. (This is straight from the horse's mouth, BTW).

[Bêthberry]

Bb - don't you think there are enough strawman type arguments though?

I would have thought that such a dedicated and public scholar of Tolkien could have presented a more powerful defense against the charge of wordiness, excessive description, dependence upon landscape. Bringing in Hemingway rather defeats his earlier claim about presenting a mythological style. However, one can still have high hopes for the entry on heroic speeches.

What I am curious to know is whether CoH will have the style of The Silm, of LotR, or of its own unique style.

Also, I am not satisfied with the pitifully small number of avatars. I would hope that more will become available, especially of Nienor.

[davem]

No, that's exactly the case. Christopher views this book as a bridge for the ordinary reader from the Lord of the Rings to The Silmarillion, and felt that the general public could use at least part of his father's prized First Age legendarium in a form less 'rebarbative' (his word) than The Silmarillion. He was also partly motivated by the perception that, in the wake of the films, 'Tolkien' and 'Lord of the Rings' had become nearly synonymous, although his desire to publish a complete Narn dates back many years. (This is straight from the horse's mouth, BTW).

But does CT feel he has 'failed' in what he set out to do - make his father's Sil accessible? We had The 77 Sil, presented without notes & background analysis/info, & that is seen as 'difficult', & we've had UT & HoM-e with notes & analysis by CT & they are viewed as even more difficult. CoH seems to be CT's final attempt at making his father's work available to the general reader. So, does he in some way feel that he has 'let his father down' in that the stuff he has given us so far has in many eyes the reputation of being either difficult or boring (or simply 'unreadable' )?

It also occurs to me whether some of us fans haven't contributed to that impression, with our in depth discussions & references to 'HoM-e vol 6 chapter 17.....' stuff which very few Tolkien fans actually know or have access to.

I'd hate to think that CT did feel he had in some way 'failed' his father. I think I've read everything CT has published of his father's work, & I'm immensely grateful for CT for the work he's done.

[davem]

Here we go - Sunday Times 'review'. http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/fiction/article1639071.ece

[Bêthberry]

Techy he is. Maybe his advance copy wasn't one of the signed ones?

[Lalwendë]

Maybe it displays a certain level of contempt on behalf of the Sunday Times as this guy is not even one of the 'literati', he's a schoolteacher (in music, not even English!) who works as an 'adviser' for an LEA and writes in the reactionary journal also known as the Times Educational Supplement (that teachers only buy to read the job ads...). They could have at least deigned to give it to someone with some knowledge to review...

Typical Sunday paper fodder for the ever-smug Tarquins and Jocastas of Islington who will enjoy scoffing at this while filling their faces with focaccia and organic whatnot this morning... :rolleyes:

[narfforc]

Hey Lal do you think it would have got into the Sunday Sport for Mikey and Britney the Manchester Chavs to understand or care about it, whilst eating left over pizza and kebab from last night, and opening the first beer of the day (well it wern't in my copy that I nicked ). Joking aside, wasn't this to be expected, isn't it always the same, some nobody trying to sound clever and arty by way of making it in to the 'literati' and acception into the 'Dead from the neck up Club'

[Lalwendë]

I'd laugh my head off if it was in the Sunday Sport! Mind, it would only get in there if it had nudey ladies in it or maybe some new evidence that Elvis had been found alive and well on the Moon. ;)

I just exercised my usual Sunday morning grumps and wrote some sarcasm to send in. If they print it:

Ooh, those awful critics.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So nice to see a 'critique' drawn yet again from the somewhat overused text "Being Smugly Sarcastic About Tolkien For Dummies", written by Edmund Wilson one dreary morning when he had a bit of a headche.

All the features you expect are here. A little snipe at the poetry, an underhand linking of Tolkien fans with spotty ne'r-do-wells, use of the word "Wagner", etc. etc. etc. I suspect I might have been able to read this review with my eyes shut.

Really, if it was necessary to produce the usual negative review which must accompany anything with the dreaded name of "Tolkien" attached it (be careful to be seen scoffing lest you lose your literati points, fair readers!), then it might be nice for once to read an original critique rather than a Review By Numbers.

[davem]

From the Independent:

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/reviews/article2450332.ece

[Elmo]

Originally post by Davem
Here we go - Sunday Times 'review'. http://entertainment.timesonline.co...icle1639071.ece
Thing I hate about the Sunday Times reviews is that the previous week in the Culture they did all the promo saying how brilliant it would be and then the next week they slated it. Its the same with films and tv when the two idiots, Cosmo Landesman and AA Gill respectively, destroy something that the same paper had claimed was the Second Coming the previous week. :mad:

[Lalaith]

Who is this Murrough O'Brien?
I feel a crush coming on.

Seriously though, some really good insights. I like this, for example:

Even the apparent irony that Turin effectively forgets his mother in the wanderings which began as a quest to find her is not a reproach to Tolkien's art but to the delusion that such quests can be carried by the power of passion alone.

[davem]

Wall St Journal:

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB117641828752268380-lMyQjAxMDE3NzE2MjQxMTI4Wj.html

[littlemanpoet]

I have a growing respect for Murrough O'Brien, which isn't saying much since I never heard of him before. :p But I like this a lot: Does this book deserve a place with the great myths, the high sagas, or should it be considered an interesting relic - much as Beowulf itself was before Tolkien proclaimed it literature? Or is it simply a pretentious folly? I fear that it will be considered as the spin-off it was never intended to be. I hope that its universality and power will grant it a place in English mythology. Hang on though - that didn't exist before Tolkien. Hee hee! :D

[davem]

I have a growing respect for Murrough O'Brien, which isn't saying much since I never heard of him before.

Same here. This review is full of fantastic possibilities for threads:

But how does fate work? Is it independent of free will or is free will its agent? Steeped as he was in the saga tradition, Tolkien understood as few others have the power of tragic irony in narrative. Theoretically, pride should resist fate; in practise it fulfils it. From this paradox Tolkien derives a remarkably original tale of tragic fall. The children of Hurin do not, like the parents of Oedipus, rush to avoid their destiny: they defy it.

Pride leads Turin to ignore the help of Thingol, the elf king, not to mention his long-suffering messengers; pride leads Morwen, wife of Hurin, to a similar refusal. Pride has loyalty as its chamberlain, and even love and pity turn to disaster.

'Pride should resist fate; in practice it fulfils it.' &' The children of Hurin do not, like the parents of Oedipus, rush to avoid their destiny: they defy it'. Wonderful insight.

&


There is terrible, but somehow uplifting, irony in the depiction of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears: Fingon calls out joyfully, "The day has come!'' before the battle, and is echoed by Hurin at its disastrous close crying in despair, "Day will come!'' Even the apparent irony that Turin effectively forgets his mother in the wanderings which began as a quest to find her is not a reproach to Tolkien's art but to the delusion that such quests can be carried by the power of passion alone.

These comments on irony in Tolkien's works call into question the old throway line that Tolkien didn't use irony - well, certainly he didn't use it in a sneering way, to mock, but o'Brien is certainly correct in pointing up Tolkien's use here of tragic irony. What else is the Hobbits' return to the Shire to find it devastated by Sharkey's ruffians but tragic irony?

[davem]

Just got my copy. God ol' Amazon :D :D :D

[Lalwendë]

I've got my copy too - very, very nice indeed!

:D

:cool:

[Thinlómien]

Ah, that's so unfair, it's still 21 hours til I get mine... or 20 at least...

Anyway, there was a horrible article about CoH in the Finnish newspaper Ilta-Sanomat, exaggerrating the Kalevala-connection and similarities and constantly calling the main character Húrin... :eek:

[Lalwendë]

Ah, that's so unfair, it's still 21 hours til I get mine... or 20 at least...

Anyway, there was a horrible article about CoH in the Finnish newspaper Ilta-Sanomat, exaggerrating the Kalevala-connection and similarities and constantly calling the main character Húrin... :eek:

Oooh, is there a weblink? I think you can run articles in other languages through the mac and translate them, so might be worth a look!

Trying to read everything I can get me hands on!

[Lalaith]

But you already have your hands on the thing itself!

It's *so* unfair. Mine still seems to be awaiting dispatch. WHY?

[Thinlómien]

Oooh, is there a weblink?I checked their website and I didn't find the article... They have a virtual version of the newspaper but it costs... Anyway, I can check it at home and translate the most horrible passages - if I find them worth it - and post them here...

[davem]

CNN gets in on the act:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/books/04/16/tolkien.reut/

[Mithalwen]

I nearly had a fit at lunchtime when it was threatening not to get me the book til 21st!!!! Mean of it since it dispatched it along with my UT barely an hour later .... now it is inthe hands of the Royal Mail.. but I may have a peak in Waterstones tomorrow lunchtime..

[Lalwendë]

I nearly had a fit at lunchtime when it was threatening not to get me the book til 21st!!!! Mean of it since it dispatched it along with my UT barely an hour later .... now it is inthe hands of the Royal Mail.. but I may have a peak in Waterstones tomorrow lunchtime..

Oooh, nasssty Amazon! I see if anyone's ordering the book now they're in for a long wait as it seems to have Sold Out! :eek: Certainly on Amazon UK anyway where they are quoting a 4-6 week wait. Obviously sold all their copies on pre-order and waiting for a second print run!

Why, Children Of Hurin, it's the new Wii. ;)

[Essex]

Costco's (well the one in Thurrock, Essex) has loads of copies of it for a tenner!

[davem]

Salon.com on CoH
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/04/17/hurin/index.html

What sits in the foreground is that persistent Tolkienian sense that good and evil are locked in an unresolved Manichaean struggle with amorphous boundaries, and that the world is a place of sadness and loss, whose human inhabitants are most often the agents of their own destruction.

[Lalwendë]

I just glanced at this and thought it said:

"good and evil are locked in an unresolved Mancunian struggle with amorphous boundaries"

:cool:

Anyone see Newsnight's excellent, intelligent item about this last night? With Adam Tolkien interviewed?

Linky to the show is in davem's post here. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=518000&postcount=22)

[davem]

I just glanced at this and thought it said:

"good and evil are locked in an unresolved Mancunian struggle with amorphous boundaries"


"a place of sadness and loss, whose human inhabitants are most often the agents of their own destruction"

Sounds like Manchester to me. :p

[davem]

More:
http://www.centredaily.com/188/story/70971.html

&
http://www.courant.com/features/lifestyle/hc-tolkien.artapr17,0,1656077.story?coll=hc-headlines-life

From which we get:

In the 1950s, Smith created the first index for Lord of the Rings, a task that required sorting out the elaborate Middle-earth world.

She once had to deliver a talk to the Tolkien Society about the author's work. Having met him only a few times, Smith felt she needed more information. Tolkien, whom she describes as cheerful and chatty, hastily sent off three-and-a-half handwritten pages about his life and work.

"I think he was a little tipsy when he wrote it, but it was very good," she says. She simply read the letter to the society and the talk was a success.

[davem]

Michael Drout review of CoH
http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2007/04/children-of-hrin-review-below-contains.html

[Lalwendë]

And now it has made the BBC News website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6562757.stm

[davem]

And now it has made the BBC News website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6562757.stm

Might be worth keeping an eye on the BBC podcasts site too:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/5204778.stm#daily - may become available for download soon

Also try 'Listen Again' for 'Front Row' right now - AS Byatt on CoH

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/progs/listenagain.shtml

She doesn't like it (neither does Mark Lawson)

[Lalwendë]

Update to the BBC news site with words from Adam.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6562757.stm

It's interesting as he seems to be following in his father's footsteps regarding the 'official line' on the films and what they have done:

Tolkien's grandson Adam, who worked as assistant editor on the book, was also at the launch.

He said he was "sad" at how some fans have forgotten about who his grandfather actually was.

"Everyone talks about the brand , the franchise and the films. People obviously forget there's a man behind it, that he wrote it for his reasons and the books are wonderful," he added.

"I'm certainly not unhappy about the success they've had, but it's a shame that it should become a brand. It's a work of art."

Strong words.

[davem]

I think AT's statement reflects the same feelings his father has expressed - its never seemed to me that they 'hate' the movies, but rather that they fear 'Tolkien' becoming a 'brand' & the books as 'First draft screenplays'. AT is right - Tolkien's work is Art, not merely a source for Hollywood to mine for their next blockbuster.

I think its clear from both AT & CT's comments that a movie of CoH is not on the cards 'for the forseeable future' as they put it on their site. Again, not because they necessarily hold any animus towards the LotR movies, but simply because they want to re-establish in the public consciousness the fact that JRR Tolkien was an author, not a comercial brand name.

[Lalaith]

She doesn't like it (neither does Mark Lawson)

She at least criticises constructively, as a LotR fan....Lawson does the usual clever-clogs lazy urban sneery thing, which I could, quite frankly, have predicted.
"I just don't care about the difference between a dwarf and an elf."

I like the way she puts him down at that point.

"That's because you don't read Norse mythology."

Anyway, Lal and Dave, lucky possessors of the Precious, I'm still awaiting an answer to my question up there *points*

[Lalaith]

place of sadness and loss, whose human inhabitants are most often the agents of their own destruction" Sounds like Manchester to me.


*snort*

[Child of the 7th Age]

Lalwende,

Thanks for Adam's words on the BBC news site. That is a great link and a great quote, if only people will read it carefully. It is a beautiful answer to a lot of "garbage" that was floating around the internet in terms of the family's supposed reaction to the films.

The more I hear from Adam, the more I am impressed. I am wondering this. It seems as if Adam is featured more and more prominently in recent press releases, interviews, etc. from the Estate. As an assistant editor, he is also getting experience in working with the family's manuscripts. Can we assume that the family is planning on putting Adam in a position similar to that which Christopher presently occupies on the sad die that the older generation passes away? Is it possible that he will be given the blessing even to do limited releases of material or make decisions such as when and if the Beowulf papers will be made public?

One last word....thanks everyone for posting the news as I would never have time to search out these links. And a special thanks to you and davem for giving so much time and effort to this. It's been a joy.

[Bêthberry]

So what shall I do? Go buy the book and read it, or spend what time I have for leisure listening to all these nattering nabobs of negativism? :rolleyes: ;)

One thing that Byatt said was, I think, whistfully telling. In complaining that CoH doesn't give enough development or information about the characters--so that she doesn't care about them--she said that she was absolutely sure that Tolkien's head held that information, that he had fully imagined all the characters. And that she recognizes the wonderful aspect of his thoughts about language change, and that she really quite regretted that this fullness was not brought out in the text, despite the constant changing of sword names etc.

It's as if she recognizes that Tolkien had a genius and regrets that it doesn't come through in this text. So, is she more generous than most of the nay-sayers? I'm not sure. This could simply be that very British way of being backhandedly snarky. Yes, that's it, I think. Now I shall go snooping through her novels trying to decide what nasty sort of character actually speaks with her voice.

Oh, yes, and of course she claims her credentials about northern myths. I recognise the type.

[Sauron the White]

Please allow me to throw a little cold water on this. Given the statements of the last few days, it seems one very big reason for "new book" is the Estate and HC want to reclaim the spotlight that they feel was taken from them with the wild success of the three films. So in order to do that they take a bunch of previously published material and repackage it and call it the first new Tolkien book in thirty years.

Look folks, I am happy to have the story of Turin in one very pretty volume. Its worth the money. But some of the reaction here and on other sites is akin to The Emperors New Clothes. Why is it being ignored that this so-called "new" book is not new at all?

I thought the cynical Sellamillion criticism of the SILMARALLION was absurd. Readers were getting a very substantial book about new tales that they had not previously been privileged to read. But this time - COH - its nothing like that. The recent statements that a prime motivation was to regain the spotlight for the books away from the films just adds to that negative feeling for me.

THIS IS NOT A NEW BOOK. The marketting slogan slogan should be "new sales but no new tales".

[Lalwendë]

Lalaith - I can't answer you that yet as I'm enjoying reading it nice and slowly. ;)

And I believe Adam T will indeed be inheriting his father's role!

Now I've listened to that AS Byatt review with interest as her book Possession is my second favourite; it's a work that has all the required 'literati' features but seems to go a bit beyond that too and satirises the 'establishment'. Plus it's a beautiful story. If you are looking for an evil character she has a fabulously loathsome one in this novel in the form of Mortimer Cropper, the academic who has decamped to an incredibly wealthy US university and is engaged in buying up every last scrap of memorabilia or paperwork relating to the fictional poet Ashe (a thinly disguised fictional Tennyson) and squirreling it away in the archives where only the 'authorised' can ever view it. I think some folk here (not me ;) ) might find the evil displayed by him redolent of their own feelings about the control over the Tolkien archive?

Byatt, like a lot of the literati alas, displays her snobbery in the interview. Slipping in that her mother went to Cambridge and how clever she was as a child by reading her mother's Cambridge texts, even though its irrelevant. Had to laugh at how she saw people re-enacting battles as 'strange' - personally the thought of getting dressed up in 'a nice dress' and going out to 'dinner in a nice restaurant' with one's mother is strange to me. She may have been born in Sheffield but she was born into a life quite, quite far removed from The Full Monty. But anyway...snobbery and inverse snobbery aside...as that's to be expected in a BBC review (unless reviewing something by a young writer when such folk always want to appear as 'street' as is possible with a cut-glass accent *cynic*).

Under all of this there was an interesting counterpoint to Drout's argument that there is too much description in LotR. Byatt's beef with CoH is that there is not enough description, and I'm inclined to agree that what the works after Lord of the Rings are lacking is the long, lingering descriptions that we found there! We are told of long lists of places but have little or no context in which to place them - we are also told of many places and swords with multiple names in LotR but it doesn't seem such a bombardment because of all the lingering descriptions!

Lawson we'll ignore. He's a nice presenter and looks pleasantly unthreatening in his tweed jacket and beard/glasses combo (Viz comic have spoofed him - they do like popping the bubbles of the literati, meh), but he's not a terribly original writer himself I'm afraid. He might pick up on Dyson's supposed gripe "Not another effing elf" but has someone said to him "Not another effing satire about the media"?

:rolleyes:

[davem]

Detroit Free Press.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070417/YAK03/70417029

[davem]

BBC report on the launch:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6564953.stm

[Sauron the White]

The signed books at Barnes & Noble in New York sold out within one hour this morning. The first two people got in line at 4 AM and came from Russia. And....


http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Children-of-Hurin-by-J-R-R-Tolkien-Signed_W0QQitemZ140108662859QQihZ004QQcategoryZ377 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

no surprises here.

[Mithalwen]

Apparently my copy is waitig for me ..but I couldn't resist a peek in Waterstones ....

Interestingly because I ordered the History of the Hobbit as well I am recommended to buy Mony Pythion Series " on DVD.... maybe it isn't a coincidence that so many DOwners like Python ,,but I winder why Series 2? ;)


To get back on point, Adam Tolkien has translated the books of Lost tales so he seems like the logical choice - he is not just going to be a token Tokien-surnamed media friendly figurehead .....

As for the critics, I don't know if I am even going to bother reading them. I have a degree in literature, I know how criticism works and my love of Tolkien is almost separate from my love of other literature. I am just thrilled that I will have my favourite silmarillion story up together...

[Child of the 7th Age]

Actually, there are two signed books on e-bay now, and I expect there will be others. The second dealer is such a doofus that he has advertised it as being signed by J.R.R. Tolkien himself along with Lee! (Quite a trick if JRRT could do that...)

See here for the second listing: Children of Hurin. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=320104772752&rd=1&rd=1)

:mad:

[Sauron the White]

Gee whiz! I thought the one with CT's sig was great. This one is much better. :p

By tonight there will be a book signed by Turin himself.

[davem]

More on the launch
http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Entertainment-News/Article/Default.aspx?idx=799432

[Elmo]

Article in the Scotsman today about CoH. Guess which was the only review of it they quoted :mad:

The 'review' in the Sunday Times :( :mad:

EDIT: Here's the article if anyone cares...
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=586542007

[davem]

And Minnesota Public Radio think CT should be grateful anyone even knows the story

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/loophole/archive/2007/04/tolkien_who.shtml

[Mithalwen]

Well considering that contains a gross factual error....

[Bêthberry]

Actually, there are two signed books on e-bay now, and I expect there will be others. The second dealer is such a doofus that he has advertised it as being signed by J.R.R. Tolkien himself along with Lee! (Quite a trick if JRRT could do that...)


Perhaps, just perhaps, Margaret Atwood's remote book signing machine (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1385928,00.html) has more remote capability than ever imagined! ;)

(Actually, I heard the machine failed its first attempted signings. :()

[davem]

And Time thinks

http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1611448,00.html

[Sauron the White]

Ebay now has one with a Buyitnow feature of $169.99 signed by both men.

[davem]

Star-Tribune
http://www.startribune.com/384/story/1126832.html

[littlemanpoet]

And Time thinks

http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1611448,00.html
[i]Children is written in Tolkien's full-on high heroic style, which is light on the characterization and sometimes hilariously dorky. That means I'll like it lots. :D

...and there's no shortage of elves and dwarves and mighty smiting for the casual fan.Mighty smiting. :D

[Child of the 7th Age]

$169.99 for a copy with both sigs....a veritable bargain!

The only buy-it-now on e-bay with both sigs goes for $249.99.

Where's that signing machine when I need it? Or at least a good counterfeiter. :p

[Maglor]

Just picked it up!

It'd be great to hear everybody's perspectives after they/we finish reading.

Initial pre-read impression:

The artwork is gorgeous, but the book is so much smaller than I expected!

Oh, and many thanks to davem for the continuous influx of articles/reviews.

[Sardy]

The artwork is gorgeous, but the book is so much smaller than I expected!

Smaller as in content... or smaller as in the actual physical size of the book...?

[Maglor]

Smaller as in content... or smaller as in the actual physical size of the book...?

Smaller in size. I actually haven't started reading yet (just the Preface and Introduction). But the book itself is slimmer and slightly shorter than I would have expected.

[davem]

Of course, its all just a rip off of Wagner, you know......

http://www.bitsofnews.com/content/view/5571/42/

[Sir Kohran]

Smaller in size. I actually haven't started reading yet (just the Preface and Introduction). But the book itself is slimmer and slightly shorter than I would have expected.


Funnily enough it's actually taller than my copy of LOTR so I don't mind.

Anyway, this is the first book I've ever bought on its release day - when I bought it at Waterstones, the woman at the counter said 'this'll be quite good, actually...'. I've yet to actually start reading it, and I haven't read the Silmarillion, so could people kindly put spoiler marks if they post the ending or anything? Thanks.

[davem]

More on the launch

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article1668625.ece

Excerpt: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070418/FEATURES05/704180409/1030

[Sauron the White]

Looks like the $169.00 US double sig book on ebay is gone and it was some kind of test because overnight at least five more popped up with a buy-it-now price of $299.00. The market is being tested.

[Lalaith]

Got it this morning. Had a good look at the contents although I haven't started reading.

Although mine is just the ordinary version, it's a handsome volume. Pictures seem more of landscape than people. Not sure if that's a good thing or not.

SPOILER......



The book doesn't end with the death of Hurin, as I had hoped. Nor does it clarify what happens to him and what his state of mind is, when he dies. I do feel very cheated - for me it's the crux of the story. Hurin's children were destroyed to punish Hurin, and I need to know how far Morgoth succeeded in destroying Hurin's mighty spirit.
But I accept that this issue of Hurin's despair is probably just my own little obsession and that most readers won't be so bothered about this.

[Child of the 7th Age]

This review is a little more even handed:

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/04/17/hurin/?source=whitelist

I came away from "The Children of Húrin" with a renewed appreciation for the fact that Tolkien's overarching narrative is much more ambiguous in tone than is generally noticed. As has been much discussed, he was a devout Catholic who tried, with imperfect success, to harmonize the swirling pagan cosmology behind his imaginative universe with a belief in Christian salvation. Salvation feels a long way off in "The Children of Húrin." What sits in the foreground is that persistent Tolkienian sense that good and evil are locked in an unresolved Manichaean struggle with amorphous boundaries, and that the world is a place of sadness and loss, whose human inhabitants are most often the agents of their own destruction.

[davem]

For those still waiting, Amazon.co.uk have the whole of Chapter 1 here

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html/ref=amb_link_40925765_1/026-3247634-6064465?ie=UTF8&docId=1000064113&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=special-offers-1&pf_rd_r=0HF481B31CYE1W327G6P&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=137447791&pf_rd_i=0007246226

[davem]

Potter slain by Black Sword:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,2060084,00.html

[davem]

http://endicottstudio.typepad.com/endicott_redux/2007/04/back_to_middle_.html

Endicott contributor Howard Gayton posed for the hero in the book's cover painting by Alan Lee. (He stood in my garden holding a broom for a sword and looking noble while Alan took photographs for visual reference.) :eek:

[davem]

http://www.quillandquire.com/blog/index.php/2007/04/18/battle-of-the-best-selling-wizards/

http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/reviews/2007-04-18-children-of-hurin_N.htm

[Bêthberry]

Wonderful links, Child and davem.

I can't help but wonder about the number of them. Have all these sites and sources decided that the book really will be big and are they trying to get on top of the buzz? On the other hand, part of me--and sorry if this sounds terribly cynical--wonders if all these reports are part of a huge marketing campaign by HarperCollins.

For instance, my local newspaper was actually part of a contest with HarperCollins: the first 100 people who replied to an email contest (to win a trip for two to "Middle-earth", aka New Zealand) would receive a free copy of the book. Was this common with other newspapers or just something conceived locally?

Major book reviews come out on the weekend here, so I have my eye out for that. If CoH isn't reviewed, what would that mean?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Is my mind slipping, or is this new version the first time Gwindor's loss of a hand has been mentioned?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Want to read a rant on the critics' views of CoH? Here's one by Marcel Bülles, the president of the German Tolkien Society: The Children of Húrin - Tolkien is back with a vengeance! (http://www.marcel-buelles.de/the-children-of-hurin-tolkien-is-back-with-a-vengeance/)

No language worries, by the way - the entry is in English.

[davem]

Wonderful links, Child and davem.

I can't help but wonder about the number of them. Have all these sites and sources decided that the book really will be big and are they trying to get on top of the buzz? On the other hand, part of me--and sorry if this sounds terribly cynical--wonders if all these reports are part of a huge marketing campaign by HarperCollins.


Yes http://www.thebookseller.com/control/?p=6&a=36306

HarperCollins will be advertising the book in Earls Court around the London Book Fair, and working in partnership with the Telegraph over the weekend of 21st and 22nd April. The Telegraph partnership will include full-page advertorials, ad placements throughout the whole newspaper, and a competition to "return to Middle-earth" by winning a trip to New Zealand. This will be supported by a month-long campaign on the Telegraph website, that includes a specially created Tolkien microsite, run-of-site advertising, advertorials, downloads and interviews.

Publicity will see a slew of reviews, features and interviews, including a major feature in the Sunday Times Culture magazine the weekend before launch, and interviews on news programmes giving the story behind the new book.

HarperCollins is also planning blanket targeting of the online Tolkien fan base through promotions with key fansites, search portals and social network sites, and a bespoke online PR campaign. There will be a dedicated website at www.tolkien.co.uk.

An all-day event at Waterstone's Piccadilly will launch the book, attended by the author's grandson, Adam Tolkien, and featuring a talk by Alan Lee. A leading "Lord of the Rings" actor will read extracts from the new book, and characters from "The Lord of the Rings" stage show will also be present. Lee will be giving talks and signing books at selected bookshops around publication as well.

Inevitable. Tolkien is both Harper Collins & Houghton Mifflin's 'star' apparently. They need to sell CoH big time.

Look at Bloomsbury's profits for last year - down 75% just because there was no Harry Potter book out. What happens to them when the HP saga concludes?

[Bêthberry]

No language worries, by the way - the entry is in English.

Hmm. Are you sure about that? I can think of a few choice Old English derived words which might cause some language worries on this forum. :D

[davem]

And one of the best so far:

http://www.marcel-buelles.de/the-children-of-hurin-tolkien-is-back-with-a-vengeance/

If you can’t handle incarnations of pure evil, the ephemeral nature of our existence, bravery in the face of all odds, the everlasting loss mankind has to suffer in losing loved ones though daringly defending them, if you cannot accept sacrifice as one of mankind’s essential qualities which has made this species survive on this planet - go home and read some of your modernist novels, probe the workings of your inner mind, the fully-fledged narcistic characters roaming the streets of rundown urban centers of depravity and disorder who so valiantly manage to suffer - suffer without hope.

Oh, really. It’s all black and white? Evil vs. good? Tolkien’s a simpleton conjuring up Christian hopes and motifs, imperfectly veiled? If you cannot tell a master at his craft’s best from writing that is so to your liking - then do get another job. Please. Criticism should be written by a person who offers reasoned judgement or analysis. Tolkienbashing has become an art in itself and it has become stale by now. We have read it all. In 1956.

[Mithalwen]

Unless my French is a lot rustier than I thought this French website quotes teh MD of Harper Collins as not ruling out a film deal despite the estate not wanting it... but is waiting for the reaction of readers before he cedes the rights to the Hollywood sharks!
http://www.fantasy.fr/news/actu/3119/les-enfants-de-hurin-adapte-au-cinema.html

Here too.. http://www.cinempire.com/films/news/170407e.html More completely...

«Avant toute chose, nous voulons que le livre puisse suivre son cheminement en tant que livre» a déclaré Brawn.
«Personne ne peut dire 'Non' à un film (mais) les droits sont réservés par l' Estate (Tolkien Estate). Nous voulons d'abord voir la réaction qu'il suscitera et on le laissera suivre son cours» a rajouté le directeur.

L'histoire se déroule avant l'époque du Seigneur des anneaux dans une partie de la Terre du Milieu qui a été inondée avant l'apparition des Hobbits. Le livre retranscrit le destin tragique des enfants de Húrin, Túrin et Niniel, maudits par Morgoth, le premier Seigneur des Ténèbres.


Very roughly - maybe TGWBS or one of our Quebecois can improve...

'"What we want first of all, is that the book is able to make its way as a book" declared Brawn. "Nobody can say "No!" to a film [ I think Christopher will as long as he lives. Mith]but the rights are retained by the (Tolkien) Estate. We want to see what response it generates and will let it take its course" . The story takes place before the time of the The Lord of the Rings in a part of Middle Earth flooded before the appearance of Hobbits. The book recounts the tragic desting of the children of Hurin, Turin and Niniel, cursed by Morgoth. the first Dark Lord.'

[Estelyn Telcontar]

And one of the best so far:
Yes, that's the same link I posted earlier. Remember Marcel? He led the auction we attended one evening in Birmingham...

[Mithalwen]

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article1613657.ece

Do we have this already .... it seems we have a convert or nearly ;)

[davem]

Yes, that's the same link I posted earlier. Remember Marcel? He led the auction we attended one evening in Birmingham...

Sorry, I'm linking to them as fast as I find them. Actually, in some case faster than I read them. I'm surprised I haven't duplicated my own links, never mind other people's
:o

[davem]

Michael Drout on NPR http://www.here-now.org/shows/2007/04/20070417_17.asp

[Maglor]

I haven't seen this one yet. If it's already been posted, just let me know.

The Columbus Dispatch:

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/dispatch/content/life/stories/2007/04/18/1A_TOLKIEN_HURIN.ART_ART_04-18-07_G3_AO6DOK1.html

[davem]

http://www.ugo.com/ugo/html/article/?id=17189&sectionId=7

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=a8FeNcObAEGU&refer=muse

[Thinlómien]

I've got mine now and I must say it looks really promising. The artwork by Alan Lee is fascinating! I read the introduction etc and even it made me excited (I had kind of calmed down, but now I'm excited about this again :D).

[davem]

Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/19/AR2007041902308.html

Years from now, when our present day is as remote from men and women (or cyborgs) as the events of the First Age were to the Council of Elrond, people may still tell tales out of Middle Earth. If so, The Children of Húrin will be one of them.

EDIT just corrected wrong link

[davem]

Metro review:

http://www.metro.co.uk/metrolife/books/article.html?in_article_id=45890&in_page_id=28
So what if the narrative is patchy, with psychologically unenlightened characters popping in and out of the faux-medieval narrative like so many dwarves on pogo sticks? Perked up by bloodthirsty battles and a wizard dragon fight, the full-colour illustrations by Oscar-winning art designer Alan Lee hint that its true legacy will be a terrific movie – albeit one that's hardly PG-appropriate.

[Mithalwen]

I've got mine now and I must say it looks really promising. The artwork by Alan Lee is fascinating! I read the introduction etc and even it made me excited (I had kind of calmed down, but now I'm excited about this again :D).


I am so intoxicated by the smell of a new seriously bound book that I haven't even read that much ...;)

[davem]

For anyone who hasn't found the link from TOR.n

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/

Listen to an interview with Adam Tolkien - last but one in the listing on the right hand side

[Anguirel]

I shall try and nab the book tomorrow. I wonder if anyone could tell me if there've been any major changes in the Nirnaeth?

I'm hoping for a resounding "No"!

This book is definitely bringing out strong reactions in reviewers, and unexpected ones. The ghastly but pro-Tolkien AS Byatt viciously attacked it, but from these reviews it seems that many writers normally indifferent or hostile to Tolkien are moved by it.

[Aiwendil]

Haven’t bought the book (yet), but I read the appendix on the “Composition of the Text” and glanced through the narrative today in Barnes & Noble. Some thoughts/reactions (note, SPOILERS follow for those who have read neither the Silmarillion nor UT):

- As expected, the text is mostly the same as the ‘Narn’ found in UT. Moreover, it appears that CT restricted himself to ‘Narn-tradition’ texts (i.e. texts dating from and associated with Tolkien’s 1950s work on the Turin saga) in compiling the narrative. There is nothing (as far as I could tell) interpolated from independent versions of the story nor from independent essays or notes. This is quite consistent with, and good in light of, CT’s apparent goal of making CoH primarily a coherent piece of literature.

- One detail of the plot has been changed, correcting what CT believes to have been an error in his previous interpretation of the texts: the gift of Anglachel to Beleg takes place when Beleg first sets out to seek Turin, and thus before Beleg’s time with the outlaws, rather than after the battle at Amon Rudh. This is a more significant point than it may at first seem, since it implies that Anglachel was Beleg’s sword during the whole period of Dor-Cuarthol and its two captains.

- CT has been rather conservative in implementing changes to the text that were merely ‘projected’ by his father. For example, he does not extend the history of the Dragon-helm beyond the battle at Amon Rudh, nor (if my brief glance is to be trusted) does he take up the projected events relating to Beleg’s healing of Androg and Mim’s dismay thereat. (Actually, now that I think about it I’m not so sure I had a good look at this section; I may be wrong). He also retains Orodreth’s position in the genealogies as the son of Finarfin and plays it safe, as it were, by omitting Gil-Galad entirely.

- There are, however, a few short passages here and there that do not appear in UT nor in the ’77 Silmarillion, nor HoMe, yet which are apparently from the body of ‘Narn’ texts. One of these, occuring in the first chapter, tells in very general terms that Hurin and Huor from time to time accompanied the men of Brethil in raids against the Orcs. This is notable in that it passes entirely over the Dagor Bragollach, which in other texts provides the motive for their being involved in fighting against the Orcs. But this is probably just an omission (no doubt on JRRT’s part rather than CT’s) for the sake of keeping the narrative’s focus from wandering.

- Another passage not found elsewhere (as far as I can remember) is that found at the meeting of Beleg and Gwindor, telling of Gwindor’s escape from Angband. A very similar passage is to be found in the ’77 but with the omission of certain details, most notably Gwindor’s loss of a hand. I am curious as to why this has not appeared before (CT offers no explanation). In any case, it is a very nice touch, giving a concrete physical manifestation to the change and dimunition of Gwindor following his captivity.

- He mentions that the name ‘Saeros’ was replaced by ‘Orgol’ (nearly a reversion to the old ‘Orgof’). Well I never!

[davem]

And

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/entertainment/reviews.nsf/book/story/DD317E103C3B916E862572C4000CABF2?OpenDocument

&

http://tolkien-studies.com/blog/index.php/michael?blog=2&page=1&paged=1

[Mithalwen]

I have now started to read it properly and I am enjoying it though I haven't examined the relevant bits of HoME enough to comment on the editorial. In fact I have avoided the relevant parts of the Silmarillion and UT since I knew this volume was being issued to let me give it at least one reading without the memroy of the other versions too fresh in the mind.

The temptation to look is strong though - I knew Sador was lame but I thought his foot was maimed not lost and now wish to look and see if it is one of those wrong ideas you get in your head (such as my enduring idea that the soles of hobbits feet were hairy :eek: ) or an actual change. But I do thing it is a healthy thing, for me at least to read it alone first - I have got so used to treating the books as reference materials and it is a real pleasure to let the story take over.

Also the book itself is delightful - makes a change from my usual dog eared paperbacks - and I find the line drawings are particularly charming. I fear that Amazon's reccomendations may turn me into a destitute junkie for hardbacked books

[Lalaith]

Have you got the deluxe or ordinary version, Mith? Can anyone tell me what the difference is? (I've got the ordinary one)

Do you think we should have a thread purely for literary discussion, for those who have read/are reading it?

I'm still in the early stages of reading but I'm already excited by what Christopher has to say in the introduction, about Tolkien's views on the consequences of Hurin defying Morgoth. The child-like conversations between Turin and Sador about the relationship between men and elves are something I don't remember having read before, but I've only read the Narn in the Sil and UT versions, I don't have HoME.


Back to the reviews - the Guardian today had a round-up of what the reviews on CoH said. Reviewers seem to either totally love it or absolutely hate it.
I can actually quite sympathise with reviewers who hate it, because if you don't like or "get" this sort of thing in the first place, then the literary devices Tolkien uses - reams of place names, characters changing their names constantly, and so on - would drive you mad.
I of course *do* like that sort of thing, very much, but I can accept that there are lots of perfectly intelligent literary people who have different tastes. In the same way that my neighbour, who works in the music industry and would therefore, one assumes, know his stuff, is obsessed with Bruce Springsteen. I just don't get it. *shrugs*

[Mithalwen]

I have the deluxe which is slipcased - covered with the same scabious blue cloth as the half bindings of the book. It has the dragon helm and the JRRT monogram embossed in gold. Teh slipcover of the ordinary versionis the frontispiece.

I don't know if the ordo has the same illustrations - various colour landscapes and the pencil drawings in the text . The deluxe is a larger format and has high grade paper as well as a more substantial binding. It is a "serious" book - I mean I received a hard copy of UT in the same post and while it is nice it is not in the same league. I am reading Hurin with tissue paper around the cover to prevent finger marks even .. and it certainly won't be read with a glass of wine/cup of tea/ crumpet itn the other mitt....

[davem]

I have the standard ed., as Lal bought the de-luxe. The only difference (apart from slightly higher quality materials) is that the DL has the cover illustration from the standard as a colour plate inside. There are no 'extras' in the DL. Certainly the DL looks nice alongside the matching DL Hobbit & LotR. I hear Harper Collins are considering a matching Sil DL for the 30th anniversary this year.


More stuff

http://www.therecord.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=record/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1177130125120&call_pageid=1024322088706&col=1024322418133

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070421/FEATURES06/704210410/1010/FEATURES

& \ report on Alan Lee's signing sesh in Oxford

http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.1346352.0.illustrator_signs_new_tolkie n_book.php

[Maédhros]

- As expected, the text is mostly the same as the ‘Narn’ found in UT. Moreover, it appears that CT restricted himself to ‘Narn-tradition’ texts (i.e. texts dating from and associated with Tolkien’s 1950s work on the Turin saga) in compiling the narrative. There is nothing (as far as I could tell) interpolated from independent versions of the story nor from independent essays or notes. This is quite consistent with, and good in light of, CT’s apparent goal of making CoH primarily a coherent piece of literature.
That is a real shame.

- There are, however, a few short passages here and there that do not appear in UT nor in the ’77 Silmarillion, nor HoMe, yet which are apparently from the body of ‘Narn’ texts. One of these, occuring in the first chapter, tells in very general terms that Hurin and Huor from time to time accompanied the men of Brethil in raids against the Orcs. This is notable in that it passes entirely over the Dagor Bragollach, which in other texts provides the motive for their being involved in fighting against the Orcs. But this is probably just an omission (no doubt on JRRT’s part rather than CT’s) for the sake of keeping the narrative’s focus from wandering.

I was wondering Aiwendil, that since it may take me months to have my own copy to read, if you had found new details about the Nirnaeth, that were not included in previous versions of the story.
The omision of the last versiongenealogy of Orodreth's genealogy is a real shame to me. Why don't make it right?

It seems to me that with the little additions that are not found in any previous texts that have been added to the CoH, we would need to put them in our version.

[davem]

More

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/leisure/books/display.var.1346313.0.the_children_of_hurin_by_jrr _tolkien_edited_by_christopher_tolkien_is_publishe d_by_harpercollins_priced_18_99.php

[littlemanpoet]

This is great:
And, of course, there is the canon-supported, widely-accepted modern literary critic’s, only for Middle-earth developped way of writing: Tolkienbashing and it’s the Times on Sunday who wins the prize for writing the first bash.:D I still haven't got the book; reading the linked reviews is a fun start though. I'll be getting it, rest assured.

[davem]

And more still

http://www.business-standard.com/common/storypage.php?autono=281996&leftnm=5&subLeft=0&chkFlg=