Denethor's plunge

[MatthewM]

Does anybody else find it to be a little bit of a stretch that Denethor would actually be able to run out of his pyre ablaze and just hop right off the edge of the Seventh level? I just realized the distance that it showed he ran while fully ablaze. Haha...I never liked how they made him do that.

[The Might]

I dunno what is worse - that he made it so far, or that he doesn't burn himself in the Hallows
Of course it's a spectacular image to see him falling down from the Seventh Level while Minas Tirith is under siege.

[Knight of Gondor]

Yeah, that was probably one of the dumbest changes that PJ made. You make a good point about distance, too. From the Silent Street all the way to the end of the high point was probably a distance of about 1/4 mile. All while on fire. I suppose one might use the hardiness of a pure Numenorian as an excuse, but that would be stretching it.

[ninja91]

If Boromir can kill 10 orcs with 3 arrows stuck in his chest, then why cant Denethor run a half mile completely engulfed in flames?

[Sir Kohran]

Also, remember that it was only his robes that were on fire to begin with.

And PJ admits it's a rather implausible ending for him but that the final image is a powerful one (I would agree with that).

[MatthewM]

If Boromir can kill 10 orcs with 3 arrows stuck in his chest, then why cant Denethor run a half mile completely engulfed in flames?

'Cause Boromir is the man. Enough said! Denethor's a great guy too...but hey, it just doesn't seem possible that a man can run so far fully ablaze.


Also, remember that it was only his robes that were on fire to begin with.

And PJ admits it's a rather implausible ending for him but that the final image is a powerful one (I would agree with that).

I gotta disagree. If you're wearing a robe, and it gets set ablaze, you're going to burn with it. It's not like the flames say "oh let's just chill on this guy's robe" ;)

Everyone see's the scene differently, but for me it was just wasn't necessary. To be honest, since PJ kind of made Denethor some what of a "bad guy", when I first saw the scene in theatres I thought he put it there for comic relief. Now THAT's bad!

[Celegost]

He ran from the fifth level.....all the way up to the seventh level....on fire

what the............?

[Celegost]

He's wearing a full chainmail hauberk so maybe that offered some protection

[radagastly]

Denethor's accuracy seems even less plausible to me than the distance. I suspect if you were engulfed in flame, even if you kept your wits about (an unlikely prospect, even for a "pure Numenorean,") you would simply find it hard to see through the flames and smoke. And that's assuming that your eyes were not yet damaged from the heat, cooked through or whatever. And yet Denethor manages to make his way across the courtyard, avoiding the tinder-dry White Tree, not to mention the quenching pool of water over which it hangs, and acheive a perfect launch off the exact prow, like an out-take from "Titanic:"



"I'm flying, Jack! I'm f . . aaaaaagh!"
Cue the Canadian singer.

Still, I have to admit that the long shot of him falling into the battle as the Rohirrim gathered on the hilltop was very dramatic.

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

funny how none of the gaurds even tried to stop and put him out.

[ninja91]

Are we going to have to do an experiment? If you guys pay me $100, you can light me on fire and see how far I can go.






























I'm joking. :p

[Folwren]

Hm. I never considered the distance he'd have to run. I never liked the part in the movie. When he does it in the book, he's so cool about it... Not cool, wrong word, I mean, he's so brave about it.

I would probably say that it was impossible. Have you ever burnt your finger on a stove or something? I don't know about you, but I hop around the kitchen, waving my hand in pain, and after ten seconds, have the wits to run to the sink and stick it under the faucet. Okay, okay, okay, so maybe that's a little bit exagerated, but it's tough to move sensibly. I can't imagine what my body would be doing while my mind was consumed in pain while I was fully engulfed in flames.

But, really, I know nothing about it. That's only my opinion, and it may not be very intelligent.

[alatar]

The first few layers of skin burnt from the Steward rather quickly, leaving him in so much agony that the pain center in his brain shut down and went home for the day. Purportedly there is evidence that when an animal (and possibly human) is in pain and about to die that the body can shut off the pain (why bother sending the message) or send in enough endorphines to smooth things over.

Also, we may want to test the effect of a large intact of tomatoes has on one's flame retardance and running speed (Don't be stupid, by the by). And, one may think that the flames reduced the Steward's mass, making it a little easier to run, and the flames surely gave some lift as well (hot air rising and all).

But in the end methinks that, at that last moment, Denethor finally came to his senses, left despair behind and ran out to due his duty, diving for a Battle Troll.

[Celegost]

If youve got a chainmail hauberk and a life-sized replica of Minas Tirith,
yeah!
:D

[Knight of Gondor]

Your post is a delightful mix of reason and insanity. :) I would agree that our mind may not process the pain if we're experiencing it to extremes, but that doesn't undo the actual damage done. Flames severe enough to burn away layers of skin would be severe enough to be incapacitating.

I assume you're kidding about Denethor trying to take on a troll?

[MatthewM]

I assume you're kidding about Denethor trying to take on a troll?

I would say he was...haha

By the way, on a serious note, on this day in Middle-earth (March 15th) Denethor burnt himself on the pyre. Alas for Denethor!

[alatar]

I would agree that our mind may not process the pain if we're experiencing it to extremes, but that doesn't undo the actual damage done. Flames severe enough to burn away layers of skin would be severe enough to be incapacitating.
It's noted that third degree burns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn_(injury)) are not painful; however, there would be associated 1st and 2nd degree, so... :eek:

The biggest problem I can see is holding one's breath for the amount of time it takes to run from Rath Dínen to the wall outside the Citadel. Those flames are going to drink oxygen from any nearby source, and that would include lungs. We can assume that Denethor, having traveled the path many times, could run the distance without sight (for whatever reason), but without air? Even if he were an Olympic speedster, that would take about a minute, and a long minute that would be.

I assume you're kidding about Denethor trying to take on a troll?
Really? Why else the effort?

"In later days, when at the end of a long day, in the tavens a man might order a 'Flaming Steward,' and drink a salute to Denethor the Brave, he who gave all at the end in the defense of his city, as commemorated by the eternal flaming stature (see attached) standing inside the Gate of Minas Tirith, where the Last Steward fell, felling a foul foe in his fall."

[Celegost]

He He He....funny picture :D

[Essex]

of course PJ's rath dinen could have been directly under where we see denethor run - and a little tunnel that brings him up just outside the sheer drop off the edge. :p

and what always amuses me is that we moan about things not being physically possible i.e. denethor's run / gandalf catching up with the balrog etc, but we don't mind the fact that wearing a ring can make you invisible!!!! ;)

[Celegost]

I agree....who cares about the science? And yes, there could have been a tunnel/stairs/extra fast escalator....

[alatar]

Gandalf was in the vicinity with Narya, and do we know just how far a member of the Mearas can kick one of noble blood? Every little bit helps...

[Knight of Gondor]

of course PJ's rath dinen could have been directly under where we see denethor run - and a little tunnel that brings him up just outside the sheer drop off the edge. :p

and what always amuses me is that we moan about things not being physically possible i.e. denethor's run / gandalf catching up with the balrog etc, but we don't mind the fact that wearing a ring can make you invisible!!!! ;)

I have photographic proof that that would be, as the immortal Vizzini said, inconceivable, in fact that the entire run of Denethor would be completely and totally inconceivable!

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/3771/rotk0412mj6.jpg
Overhead shot of the pinnacle of Gondor.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1679/rotk0462gm1.jpg
Photo demonstration of the length of the across the courtyard.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2194/rotk1403jd3.jpg
Distance of the bridge Denethor would have needed to run.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/3885/rotk1401dt1.jpg
Better shot showing the incredible length of the bridge to Rath Dínen, as well as showing Denethor would have had to run up some flights of steps!

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4418/rotk1614wq7.jpg
Final shot showing the path Denethor traversed to get to the tip and launch himself into a flaming oblivion.

From these pictures, IT IS CLEAR THAT DENETHOR COULD NOT HAVE MADE THIS LONG-DISTANCE SPRINT WHILE AFLAME. This dash would have taken him at least three minutes to make, counting his trip back through the hallways leading back to the Silent Street, the long bridge, the flights of stairs and the courtyard.

Conclusion? The guy made it back to the courtyard and doused himself in the water by the tree. However, Shadowfax (having not yet fully exacted his equine vengance) chased him down with a torch and reignited him, leaving the sprightly Steward no choice but to vault himself over the edge.

Plan B Conclusion: Nazgul (not Witchking) picked Denethor up and carried him a piece before putting him down because its claws were getting scorched.

[davem]

Don't know if it helps, but using Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth, which is noted for its accuracy, the distance from the Hallows to the Minas Tirith 'Precipice Viewpoint' is approx 3 miles & involves a climb (as has been noted) from the fifth to the seventh levels. This being impossible one must suspect that it is not actually Denethor who is seen falling but one of his guards.

It seems that the most logical conclusion is that Denethor was grabbed by one of his guards just outside the Hallows, who attempted to extinguish the flames. Said guard, tragically, caught fire himself & in his panic left the dying Steward & fled looking for help. He in turn ran into another guard who attempted to put him out & suffered the same fate as his colleague. This event was repeated a number of times & left all Denethor's personal guard dead along the three miles distance. A kind of horrific 'relay', where the flames were passed along from guard to guard.

This tragic event was commemorated in later years by the famous 'Minas Tirith Relay Run' involving a flaming baton being passed by runners starting at Rath Dinen & culminating in the igniting of a Dummy at the edge of the 'Precipice Viewpoint' being set alight & catapulted off the edge, to fall into the great Courtyard before the gates at the First Level.

'The Fall of the 100th Guard Festival' as it came to be known was originally celebrated every ten years at midnight on the anniversary of Denethor's death & became so famous throughout Middle-earth that travellers of all races would come from across the length & breadth of Middle-earth to witness the spectacle, crowding the streets & spending lots of money.

Unfortunately, the popularity (& the resulting cash benefit for the city) lead first of all to the festival being increased to once in five years, then annually & finally to every Saturday night. Drunkenness & general rowdyness increased to the point that locals began to complain about the 'yobs invading our lovely city & making a nuissance of themselves' & many visitors who couldn't wait for the official event would sneak up to the Viewpoint & throw their own home made dummies off the top. This resulted in two main problems which eventually lead to the event being cancelled - first, flaming dummies would pile up in the courtyard, making access into the city a difficult thing, & secondly, the Burns Unit of the Houses of Healing found they couldn't cope with the numbers of locals & visitors who fund themselves on the receiving end of a flaming dummy hitting them from 5,000 feet. It became a bit of a sick joke among some of the locals, who began making & selling tunics emblazoned with the legend 'I went to Minas Tirith for the 'The Fall of the 100th Guard Festival' & all I got was these lousy third degree burns'. An attempt to make Dwarf sized tunics emblazoned with 'I was a burned Dwarf' failed miserably & lead to the violent murders of a number of tunic vendors at the hands of angry dwarves.

In the end it was decided that for the public good the event would cease & the 'official' version of events was declared to be that Denethor had burned to death in Rath Dinen, no guards had perished in flames & that none of the above had actually happened. Tourism in Gondor suffered but the locals bore it stoically (apart from the tunic printers, who raised a riot on hearing the official declaration of the end of the festival & attacked the local Civil Servants, dragging them from their offices (coincidentally on the Fifth level) all along the route to the edge of the Viewpoint, setting many of them on fire & hurling them off the edge, in a desperate attempt to start up another 'tradition'. The rioters claimed that this was a spontaneous outburst of anger, but the discovery of a batch of tunics emprinted with the legend '1st Weekly 'Fall of the Flaming Civil Servants' (who weren't set on fire & pushed over the edge by the Tunic Printers Guild of Minas Tirith & anyone who says they did it are liars because we were all somewhere else doing other stuff & it was most probably the pressure of the job which lead to a mass sucide on their part) Commemoration Festival' was seen as proof positive that the whole thing had been planned.

Initially there was a demand by the survivng colleagues of the dead Civil Servants that the Tunic Printers should suffer the same fate as their own colleagues & be dragged up to the Viewpoint & ignited & catapulted from the edge (they were working on their own tunic designs but took so long to come up with a legend they could all agree on, submitting various versions, in triplicate, to their immediate & senior managers, bringing in third party consultants to 'think outside the box', advertising managers to choose the most effective colours & fonts for the lettering, that in the end nothing came of it, & the whole thing faded into blessed obscurity & everyone went back to what they had done before the whole thing had gotten so far out of hand.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Ah, cynicality is the spice of life, is it not, Davem?

'Cause Boromir is the man.

Okay, but Denethor is his father, thus Denethor having two children would inevitably split the man-ness (albiet in Boromir's favour) between the two. So Denethor's wife (who's name escapes me at this moment in time) had a significant contribution to the manliness. This raises some questions about her! :)

Perhaps instead of being born the-man, Boromir achieved the-man, or indeed had the-man thrust upon him?

I'm rambling here people..

[Knight of Gondor]

This being impossible one must suspect that it is not actually Denethor who is seen falling but one of his guards.

So what you're saying is, Elvis could still be alive??? :eek:

So Denethor's wife (who's name escapes me at this moment in time) had a significant contribution to the manliness. This raises some questions about her! :)

Finduilas.

[alatar]

Have we considered that fire may have not even been real?

When Gandalf begged Saruman for information outside Orthanc, Saruman sent down a fireball (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11562) to the new White Wizard. Gandalf astride Shadowfax was unharmed by the blast, and so:
Gandalf is able to create a cloak of sorts that protects those so covered from fire, yet permits the fire to burn as it would on the outside, or
Gandalf saw the fire for what it was, just another mind trick. Saruman's voice did not fool Gandalf, and though the others saw the flames, Gandalf did not and so was unharmed. There is precedent in at least two Star Trek episodes (original and NextGen), as well as in the 'Beneath the Planet of the Apes' movie, and so I feel that I'm on solid ground here.

So were the flames that burned Denethor real? Did Gandalf cloak him, to protect the Steward in his madness, but the Steward ran off before Gandalf could continue to thump him senseless? Or, did Gandalf, a quick study, learn the spell from Saruman and decide that the Steward needed a lesson, thinking that the burned hand teaches best? Again, Gandalf may have started it off with good intentions, yet did not think that Denethor would take so long a dive.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Honestly? Before RotK:EE, I thought the Movie!Hallows were situated right behind the Steward's chair in the Hall, or thereabouts.
Then EE came along, and the guards carried Faramir for about a mile back to the Hallows, and I thought... Wait a minute... The Leap of the Flaming Steward is totally impossible! Any of the above situations (Nazgul, Shadowfax, guard aid) seem more plausible than Denethor doing a three-minute mile while aflame.

And honestly? again? I thought the Leap of the Flaming Steward was cheezy. After the beautiful father-son moment in the Hallows, Denny had to go and ruin it all by getting us yet another long pan-out of Minas Tirith.
As if we hadn't gotten enough with Gandalf/Pippin's ride in.

[Essex]

notice the 'steps' just behind the flaming denethor in Knight of Gondor's last picture?

You see, that was the tradesmen's entrance and exit to the Hallows in Movie Middle-earth. All that walking around just leads them back to a point underneath where we see Denethor run in flames. - a quick run up some stpes and then out over the side.

And anyway, Denthor survived the fall. It obviously gave him a Russian accent, put about 4 stones on him and transported him to the Russian Embassy to have one of his fingers cut off by a CTU agent. (If you can believe he run that long from Rath Dinen then you can believe that!)

[Knight of Gondor]

Have we considered that fire may have not even been real?

I do not think this is plausible. The fire brought by the (senseless) guards was real enough. Pippin feared for Faramir's life because of the flames. And Denethor's groaning in pain couldn't be just put on.

[Bêthberry]

Have we considered that fire may have not even been real?

When Gandalf begged Saruman for information outside Orthanc, Saruman sent down a fireball (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11562) to the new White Wizard. Gandalf astride Shadowfax was unharmed by the blast, and so:
Gandalf is able to create a cloak of sorts that protects those so covered from fire, yet permits the fire to burn as it would on the outside, or
Gandalf saw the fire for what it was, just another mind trick. Saruman's voice did not fool Gandalf, and though the others saw the flames, Gandalf did not and so was unharmed. There is precedent in at least two Star Trek episodes (original and NextGen), as well as in the 'Beneath the Planet of the Apes' movie, and so I feel that I'm on solid ground here.

So were the flames that burned Denethor real? Did Gandalf cloak him, to protect the Steward in his madness, but the Steward ran off before Gandalf could continue to thump him senseless? Or, did Gandalf, a quick study, learn the spell from Saruman and decide that the Steward needed a lesson, thinking that the burned hand teaches best? Again, Gandalf may have started it off with good intentions, yet did not think that Denethor would take so long a dive.

Oh, gosh, I've just thought of something that might relate to fire things. I think we have a precedent of some sort here.

Moses is reported as seeing the Lord speaking to him out of a burning bush. I seem to recall that the bush was not consumed. So, I'm not sure if the bush or the fire was actually doing the speaking, but something along the lines of imperishable was part of the story.

So, in the hands of lesser writers than those of Holy Writ, we could have the Steward speaking to us out of flames and not being consumed. Thus we would be able to conjecture a very long run on the part of Denethor (whoops, almost wrote Denimthor there) unhampered by the flames.

This would suggest that PJ and the other filmic writers have a unique understanding of Flame Imperishable in Tolkien's works. Or else they are suggesting something about Denethor's sense of himself as having proportions almost approaching that of a deity.

[davem]

It is of course possible that the flames were an optical illusion. We know Denethor wore armour under his robes, so it is possible that the flames of the Pyre simply burned off the robes & that the 'flames' were actually a reflection of the fires burning the lower levels of the city. Freak atmospheric conditions could have easily produced this effect (as any fule kno this is the well known 'Molesworth effect' - named after the famous Prof. Molesworth, Old Boy of St Custard's skool, & formulated after a series of experiments involving a flamethrower & his long suffering assistant, one Fotherington-Thomas.)

[alatar]

I do not think this is plausible. The fire brought by the (senseless) guards was real enough.
Sure, the fire was real, but was the fire that engulfed the running Steward real? In the scene where Shadowfax attacks Denethor, the film makers realized that the real horse would be afraid of the real flames. Virtual flames were tried, but didn't look real enough, and so a mirror was used - watch the Appendix material on the DVDs for more.

Anyway, so real flames appeared to be cooking Faramir, yet actually were elsewhere. Could Denethor's flames also be illusionary in the same manner? Gandalf did use a white light to chase off the Nazzies once on the Pelennor Fields, and so we can assume that he had knowledge of optics.


Pippin feared for Faramir's life because of the flames. And Denethor's groaning in pain couldn't be just put on.
Pippin was mostly concerned that his wardrobe's future prospects were protected. And, speaking of Pippin, I too groaned in pain when the hobbit and his partner bounced on Frodo's bed later in the movie, yet I wasn't on fire (though may have wished that it were so). ;)


Or else they are suggesting something about Denethor's sense of himself as having proportions almost approaching that of a deity.
But Denethor was consumed, both physically and mentally. And even the memory of the Leaping Steward of Fire will burn out eventually.


So, I'm not sure if the bush or the fire was actually doing the speaking,
No one reported any last words from the Steward, flaming or not, after he hit the ground, or at least more than "whoop!"


We know Denethor wore armour under his robes, so it is possible that the flames of the Pyre simply burned off the robes & that the 'flames' were actually a reflection of the fires burning the lower levels of the city.
Think that it would depend on what he wore under the armour. We bought a stainless steel tea kettle, more for looks than utility (who drinks tea?), and I've burned my fingers more than once when grabbing the steel handle, as the metal conducts heat rather well. If Denethor wore dish towels or a garment made of oven mitts under his steel rings, then he may have survived the initial fire well enough to run with the illusionary one as far as he did.


Freak atmospheric conditions...
In the world of Middle Earth, one only wonders what would be considered freak atmospheric conditions... ;)

[davem]

Think that it would depend on what he wore under the armour. We bought a stainless steel tea kettle, more for looks than utility (who drinks tea?), and I've burned my fingers more than once when grabbing the steel handle, as the metal conducts heat rather well. If Denethor wore dish towels or a garment made of oven mitts under his steel rings, then he may have survived the initial fire well enough to run with the illusionary one as far as he did.

It is a little know fact of Middle-earth history that Denethor was a bit of a fashion icon & began the short lived trend of wearing asbestos underwear. This accounts for his lack of fear at being around smokers like Gandalf, whose pipe tended to spew out large sparks when he got angry, igniting unwary bystanders. Gandalf usually explained this as the result of the Secret Fire but nobody believed him. In actual fact the story of Denethor lighting his & Faramir's pyre in a final desperate act of self immolation was Gandalf's own invention (supported by Pippin): the truth was that Denethor had taken the feverish Faramir to the Hallows because it was the coolest place in the city & Gandalf pursued him there to steal his underwear for protection among the fires raging on the First Level (Gandalf's exact words being, as reported by a drunken Pippin many years later, 'I need his pants more than he does!!'). In the angry confrontation that ensued sparks from Gandalf's pipe ignited the sheets on Faramir's bier which Denethor in a last, desperate act of fatherly devotion attempted to extinguish. This lead to Denethor's cloak & tunis bursting into flame. The Steward was of course immune to harm due to his protective undergarments & on seeing that Pippin had put out the fire, made a run for it with Gandalf in hot pursuit crying out to the guards to stop the fleeing Steward in the now infamous words 'Stop that man & remove his pants & vest!! I have a battle to fight!!'

Denethor managed to avoid the stunned guards & run out to the court of the Fountain where he hoped to extinguish the flames & steal a horse & make for his summer residence in the vales of Lebennin, but Gandalf was too close behind & Denethor chose Death rather than dishonour & hurled himself from the pinacle with the cry 'You'll have to pry them from my cold, dead botty!'

Thus perished Denethor son of Ecthelion......

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

you have forgotten one thing tho, Denethor was a track star.

[Elfchick7]

hahahaha

These post are so funny! The scene of Denethor's plunge was undoubtedly an absurd one.

I remember seeing it for the first time and thinking, "What the heck!?!!"

[calandil]

hey guys,
give pj a break!!
the image of of denethor falling of the 7th level is one of the most iconic images of the movie!
it would not have looked good if he just fell dead in the room,eh?
there is also the case of cinematic license!

[ninja91]

hey guys,
give pj a break!!
the image of of denethor falling of the 7th level is one of the most iconic images of the movie!
it would not have looked good if he just fell dead in the room,eh?
there is also the case of cinematic license!


I agree. You cant film anything without making some enemies. And that is just how it is in the film world. Its a win-lose situation. Either make the movie follow the film exactly, and lose some interested newbies (at the same time even boring some), or add and cut some of the books to fit the film, and bring a flood of people to Tolkien's world (like the movies did to me.) I understand where everyone dissatisfied with the movies is coming from. But nothing is always perfect.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

hey guys,
give pj a break!!
the image of of denethor falling of the 7th level is one of the most iconic images of the movie!
it would not have looked good if he just fell dead in the room,eh?
there is also the case of cinematic license!

Oh, come on! The palantir clasped between his hands, withering in flame? The collapse of the House of Stewards dome in a rush of flame? What wonderful, horrific visual drama!

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

'Cause Boromir is the man. Enough said! Denethor's a great guy too...but hey, it just doesn't seem possible that a man can run so far fully ablaze.




Everyone see's the scene differently, but for me it was just wasn't necessary. To be honest, since PJ kind of made Denethor some what of a "bad guy", when I first saw the scene in theatres I thought he put it there for comic relief. Now THAT's bad!

I gotta agree cause Denethor wasn't bad he was just slightly cracked, and wouldn't you be too if you just found out that your favourate son had just died, AND your country is being over taken by the dark lord?

[Elmo]

...and you had epic mind contests with the dark lord

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Quite right!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Oh please! The fiery leap made it 'more interesting for newcomers'? What kind of person would prefer to see something so ridiculous, in a film featuring a world one is trying to immerse oneself in? Why do we have to assume that all newcomers to The Lord of the Rings are fickle and desire lame action scenes over a decent story? A simple, horrifying shot of Denethor being consumed by flame, with the others watching aghast, would have been obviously better.

And the point about Boromir offers nothing: history is filled with thousands, nay, millions! of warriors who fight on, and kill, after suffering wounds. That scene wasn't unrealistic; the Denethor scene is, hopelessly so.

[alatar]

Why do we have to assume that all newcomers to The Lord of the Rings are fickle and desire lame action scenes over a decent story?
Those of you who read the books after seeing the movies: What did you think when you read that Denethor didn't take the plunge? Were you disappointed, or did you find the 'real' story more interesting?

I can't see a reason for having Denethor 'burning to fly,' and could think of better ways, filmatically, for him to die. Was it simply to get rid of another place for a memorial ("This black ring on the floor are the remains of Denethor II...please watch your step.")?

PJ does seem to have a thing for persons falling...cough...Gollum, Aragorn, Saruman...cough

Just which Valar IS the Lord of Gravity?

[Finduilas]

PJ does seem to have a thing for persons falling...cough...Gollum, Aragorn, Saruman...cough

Just which Valar IS the Lord of Gravity?

You forgot Frodo in Mount Doom, and Sam at the Black Gate, though these two weren't quite as dramatic.:rolleyes:

On a whole, I was very dissapointed with Denethor. In the book, the first time I read it, I almost cried at Denethor's death. He is noble. It always bothered me that he was to much of a coward to face death in the movie. However bad he was, no one could call him a coward.

Just which Valar IS the Lord of Gravity?

LOL!

We will just have to invent one.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Those of you who read the books after seeing the movies: What did you think when you read that Denethor didn't take the plunge? Were you disappointed, or did you find the 'real' story more interesting?

I can't see a reason for having Denethor 'burning to fly,' and could think of better ways, filmatically, for him to die. Was it simply to get rid of another place for a memorial ("This black ring on the floor are the remains of Denethor II...please watch your step.")?

PJ does seem to have a thing for persons falling...cough...Gollum, Aragorn, Saruman...cough

Just which Valar IS the Lord of Gravity?

Well after I read this post I was really ****ed at PJ for putting the falling sequence in there. But I think that the way Denethor dies in the book is more heroic in a way because he was not afraid to die and in the movie he just kind of started burning and was so incredibly scared that he ran and fell of the seventh level of Minis Tirith.

[alatar]

Rethinking the movies a bit, I now have yet another theory regarding Denethor's flaming plunge:


Denethor was of Númenórean blood.
The Nazgûl presumedly were as well.
On Weathertop, Aragorn drives away the Nazgûl with fire. Now, one may say that the Nazgûl, having planted the sliver in Frodo's heart, did what they came to do and so left by their own volition and not because of the fire, but if you remember the scene, after the Witch-King's attack and retreat, there's that one Nazgûl that's a real go-getter and hangs around to do a bit more damage. Aragorn sees him and throws a flaming brand into the creature, who subsequently catches fire and leaves. Let's call this one "Torchie."
Later we see all Nine chase after Glor...Arwen and her Frodo Baggage doll. If all Nine are present, where did Torchie get new black cloth in which to wrap his invisible form? Did Torchie have to borrow a spare robe from Khamûl? I've checked both Tolkien's and Peter Jackson's maps, and I cannot find a reputable sempstress or tailor shop between Bree and Rivendell. Maybe Torchie's cloak only appeared to burn. Hmm...
Maybe Númenóreans impart fire resistance to their clothing?
Isildur wasn't affected by the heat of the glede Ring nor the fact that he stood inside an active volcano, so there is precedent.
Gandalf sure had a long time to talk with Aragorn, and it can be assumed that the two shared much information.
Gandalf shoos Aragorn away "Swords are no more use here!" when facing the Balrog in Moria. Did Gandalf know that Aragorn may have been able to fight Roggie, a creature of flame? Anyway...
Gandalf gets owned by the Witch-King. Shortly thereafter, Gandalf attacks the crazed Denethor, who was obviously crazy as he was of Númenórean blood and was going to try to immolate himself and his son anyway. Might have been those tomatoes.
Gandalf does seem to use what's available. ;)

So we have Gandalf unable to fight the Witch-King, who is flying around Minas Tirith making a mess of the defense. He has Denethor, crazed and covered in oil. Gandalf knows much and uses what's available. Flame drove the Nazgûl from Weathertop; it may work here as well. Denethor knows, somewhere inside his head, that flame really won't hurt him.

A few well-placed knocks to the head - Gandalf rebooting and 'aiming' the Steward - and suddenly we have Denethor running for the edge. "Denethor, son of Ecthelion II, Steward of Gondor, do your duty and go out to meet the Black Captain in aerial combat. The flames about you will not harm you. Go and meet whatever fate awaits you..."

This explains why Denethor's guards and entourage do not protest; their Lord is going to fight the Black Captain from whom all have fled - even Gandalf.

It wasn't realized until later that Denethor couldn't see worth a wit, and so dove out at rooster changing its perch.

[MatthewM]

A comical post alatar, and I have to say I am glad this topic was brought back on subject as I kept dismissing checking the new posts because of the side-topics that plagued it for a bit.

I wonder if PJ realizes that Denethor's fiery plunge was one of the worst changes he made to the story?

The real story, in the books, is brilliant and naturally much, much, much better. You really feel sadness for Denethor in the books, yet in the movie this feeling is almost completely absent. It truly is a pity!

[Knight of Gondor]

On Weathertop, Aragorn drives away the Nazgûl with fire. Now, one may say that the Nazgûl, having planted the sliver in Frodo's heart, did what they came to do and so left by their own volition and not because of the fire, but if you remember the scene, after the Witch-King's attack and retreat, there's that one Nazgûl that's a real go-getter and hangs around to do a bit more damage. Aragorn sees him and throws a flaming brand into the creature, who subsequently catches fire and leaves. Let's call this one "Torchie."

Later we see all Nine chase after Glor...Arwen and her Frodo Baggage doll. If all Nine are present, where did Torchie get new black cloth in which to wrap his invisible form? Did Torchie have to borrow a spare robe from Khamûl? I've checked both Tolkien's and Peter Jackson's maps, and I cannot find a reputable sempstress or tailor shop between Bree and Rivendell. Maybe Torchie's cloak only appeared to burn. Hmm...

Hate to burst your bubble, but...in the pull-away shot, there's only eight Nazgul chasing Arwen. See for yourself. (http://www.framecaplib.com/lotrlib/html/episodes/images/fotr/fotr0611.htm) (Granted, all nine are later at the Ford, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.)

[alatar]

Hate to burst your bubble, but...in the pull-away shot, there's only eight Nazgul chasing Arwen. See for yourself. (http://www.framecaplib.com/lotrlib/html/episodes/images/fotr/fotr0611.htm) (Granted, all nine are later at the Ford, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.)
Bursting my bubble? My good sir, you simply just make my case even more watertight. Now we know that there's a clothing store on the west side of the Ford in which Torchie was shopping. ;)

And do you know from which - theatrical or EE version - the screen shot was captured.?

[Knight of Gondor]

The shot was present in both, although the screencaps site has all the extended shots, leading me to believe they're all from the EE.

[alatar]

EXT. PINE FOREST -- DAY

The white horse charges through a Pine Forest. Suddenly 2
Galloping Ringwraiths emerge from the trees behind! 2 more
Ringwraiths slide in from different directions to join the
chase. Arwen grits her teeth...urges the white horse to
greater speed.

CUT TO:

EXT. THE EAST ROAD -- DAY

The white horse speeds out of the pine trees...the 4
ringwraiths close behind PAN ONTO: 2 more ringwraiths
galloping down the hillside! AERIAL SHOT: 3 MORE RINGWRAITHS
enter frame from different directions...a total of 9
RINGWRAITHS now pursuing Frodo and Arwen! CLOSE ON: Panting
head of the WHITE ELVEN HORSE.

ARWEN
Noro lim, Asfaloth!

The script says that there are to be Nine. Will have to relisten to PJ's commentary to see if he notes the issue. Note that "Noro lim, Asfaloth" in elvish means roughly, "We were limited to a total of nine horses in this shot, Asfaloth."


CLOSE ON: With a ROAR, DENETHOR SNATCHES a FLAMING TORCH ...
and HURLS it at the PYRE!

WHOOSH! The PYRE IGNITES!

ANGLE ON: GANDALF GALLOPS toward the PYRE, knocking DENETHOR
to his FEET ... PIPPIN LEAPS from SHADOWFAX onto the BURNING
PYRE!

With a desperate strength, PIPPIN pushes FARAMIR off the
BURNING PYRE ... they tumble down the BUNDLES of WOOD, onto
the FLOOR! PIPPIN douses FLAMES on FARAMIR'S clothing.

DENETHOR SCREAMS with RAGE!

DENETHOR
No! Do not take my son from me!

DENETHOR leaps ACROSS THE PYRE, RIPPING and TUGGING at
PIPPIN! FIRE quickly spreads up DENETHOR'S OIL-SOAKED BACK as
he hauls PIPPIN off FARAMIR!

ANGLE ON: SHADOWFAX rears up and STRIKES at DENETHOR who
falls back onto the PYRE .

CLOSE ON: DENETHOR . . . he looks into his SON'S eyes . . . for a
BRIEF MOMENT SANITY returns.

DENETHOR (cont'd)
(whisper)
Faramir . . .

ANGLE ON: FLAMES begin to ENGULF DENETHOR . . .

CLOSE ON: GANDALF pulls PIPPIN to safety . . . they look in
HORROR as . . .

SUDDENLY! DENETHOR lurches off the PYRE! Now a SCREAMING,
unguided BALL OF FLAME, he runs across the CHAMBER,
disappearing out of the door!
(CONTINUED)

Final Revision - October, 2003 107.
CONTINUED: ( 2 )


CANDALF
(grimly)
So passes Denethor, Son of Ecthelion.

CUT TO:

EXT. MINAS TIRITH - DAY

DENETHOR runs across the WHITE COURT atop MINAS TIRITH ...
and PLUMMETS straight over the 700 FOOT SHEER DROP into the
FLAMING CITY below!

With that many capitalized words and exclamation marks, you can clearly see why the scene was a winner!

[Sauron the White]

Knight of Gondor did an excellent job using stills from the movie to show how this feat was not possible given the realities of the physical anatomy.

I wonder if any readers of the book will take into consideration the physical anatomy in calculating the distance that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas ran in the first part of the TWO TOWERS. Having been a long distance runner most of my life - and that represents 30 years and 60,000 miles of running - I know the fuel that powers muscles and what the body is capable of. When JRRT wrote those scenes it seems as if he merely urged the three to will their bodies to run that long distance despite the anatomical inability of an untrained and inexperienced runner to do so. I might buy the idea that Legolas could do it - Elves being different and all. And I would buy the idea that Aragorn would be in good physical shape from years in the wild but that does NOT translate into running. And as for Gimli - that is hopeless.

But there it is in the book - all three run vast distances despite the physical realities.

So lets use the same logical scales and deductive reasoning processes when we criticize things shall we? What is good for the goose - in this case the targeted whipping boy of Peter Jacksons films - is good for the gander - the beloved and cherished Holy Word of JRRT.

Forgive me for being a wise guy but this is the kind of thing that rankles me to no end.

[alatar]

Knight of Gondor did an excellent job using stills from the movie to show how this feat was not possible given the realities of the physical anatomy.
Not sure to what you are referring.

I wonder if any readers of the book will take into consideration the physical anatomy in calculating the distance that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas ran in the first part of the TWO TOWERS.
How far did they run? At what average mph did they run? What is the longest/fastest some human ran today? Also, what is the limiting factor in running? Does it have something to do with lactic acid or another waste product? Could lembas and/or a difference in the percentage of atmospheric oxygen help the equation (Isn't the size of insects related to the amount of oxygen available?)?

Surely someone can do the math to save the Master's honor.


And as for Gimli - that is hopeless.
Is that why PJ had him rolling most of the time? ;)

[Sauron the White]

Surely someone can do the math to save the Master's honor.

Surely someone can perform leaps of imaginative logic and creative thinking to show just how far the Faithful will go to justify anything written by the Master.

But I do welcome the discussion. Lets just keep it grounded to what is physically possible. Will and motivation have not a darn thing to do with muscles and the ability to run lengthy distances.

[alatar]

Surely someone can perform leaps of imaginative logic and creative thinking to show just how far the Faithful will go to justify anything written by the Master.
I do the same when I'm making my point...;)

But I do welcome the discussion. Lets just keep it grounded to what is physically possible. Will and motivation have not a darn thing to do with muscles and the ability to run lengthy distances.
I found here (http://www.runningusa.org/cgi/wldrec.pl) that one Andy Jones ran 100 miles in 12 hours 5 minutes and 43 seconds. The list does not state whether he was a human, dwarf or elf.

I may have this wrong, but was it four days from the 'burial of Boromir' to the meeting of Eomer and about 45 leagues or 135 miles (I searched the Encyclopedia of Arda and the Barrow Downs for sources)? Now, I can run about 2 miles per day, and by then either I've come upon better options or the pursuit has given up, but, Sauron the White, you are the runner and so would know if it were possible for a non-average runner to run 34 miles a day for four days.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Hell, you can *walk* 34 miles a day if you're in athletic shape. 3mph (not very fast) x 12 hrs = 36 mi/day. This was just a matter of endurance, not speed; and no more remarkable than some historical military forced marches.

[alatar]

Heck, you can *walk* 34 miles a day if you're in athletic shape. 3mph (not very fast) x 12 hrs = 36 mi/day. This was just a matter of endurance, not speed; and no more remarkable than some historical military forced marches.
But the criticism will be that this was not level even ground and that Aragorn et al had to track their quarry and make interesting conversation while maintaining average speed. ;)

[Sauron the White]

And what did Mr. Andy Jones do to train for this amazing feat which seems to stand by itself in all of humankind? Was he merely motivated? Was he pursuing something the gave him god-like abilities? Did he take some pills, magic foodstuffs, or drugs giving him the power of a comic book superhero to do things beyond the abilities of mere mortals? Was he a member of some powerful race of beings whose physical abilities defying his seemingly human shell of a body?

Again, I crack wise.

Mr. Jones, like every single long distance runner in the history of the world, trained. He trained for long periods of time. Daily for months, most likely years. He trained putting in countless miles - check that - he counted them all right - and did the math.

Think of it this way. An athlete who trains for a marathon - 26 miles - has a mathematical formula which calculates his ability to store and use a substance called glycogen into the muscles. Think of a car and think of gasoline and you have an idea. Rule of thumb is this: if you want to run 26 miles at one time, you need to acclimate your body to comfortably run 10.5 miles each day for no less than 12 weeks. For almost everyone it would take at least another 3 months to work up to that 12 week level. That is six months of training to do a 26 mile marathon.

Some people can do it with a little less, some with a little more - but that is the average and formula the long distance running literature generally subscribes to.

And then that marathon runner, having run their 26 miles, goes home and sacks out for a few days recovering and nursing their body.

Now you tell me about running 135 miles over three days without any training.

[alatar]

Now you tell me about running 135 miles over three days without any training.
And yet it moves...

To my comfort, in a world of Balrogs, Endless Stairs, Wizards and Rings of Power, we established that it is *possible* for someone to run 135 miles in four days. Could I do it? No. But is it a 1000 miles in four days? No.

Aragorn was called by Gandalf something like 'the greatest huntsmen and traveler of this age.' He was very long-lived and so like but not like us. The deed, running that far with elf and dwarf in tow (of whose physiology we know little to nothing), was thought to be extreme by others. So, when reading the text, I saw this as a feat superhuman but not ridiculously so, and so did not skip a beat when reading it. Unlike when Peter Jackson has Faramir send calvary against Osgiliath with entrenched orcs with bows. :rolleyes:

As for new quibbling, you might want to check out the distances covered from the Paths of the Dead to Minas Tirith. :eek: That dwarfs this event.

[Sauron the White]

Alatar -- none of that changes the physical demands of supplying the muscles with glycogen. The greatest car in the world, product of the best enginering, design and manufacturing, cannot travel without gasoline. A car designed to travel with a top speed of 100 mph cannot go 200 mph no matter who is pushing down on the pedals.

Running has little to do with motivation or urgency. It has a great deal to me with the mechanics of the human body and the physical laws which govern it.

To a world used to comic books, superheroes, Chinese fighters who can balance on 200 foot pine tree limbs, and other fantasies, perhaps the run of the Three Hunters is believable.

My point is a simple one.

Many Tolkien book purists take great delight in bashing the Jackson films for every little thing they can think of that defies rigid logic. This Denethor plunge is but one example. On the previous page, Knight of Gondor uses several film stills to show just how far this distance is and concludes he could not make that run in less than three minutes. He concludes it would be impossible. And everybody piles on posting humorous witicisms about what a horses *** Peter Jackson is for showing it like this.

But when it comes to their precious book - the True Believers march in lockstep and will trot out any number of hoops and jump through them when challenged.
At that time, creative thinking, imaginative reasoning and plain old fashioned "its a fantasy for heavens sake" take over.

I see this as hypocrisy.

I could tell you about cases of people catching on fire and running several blocks to get help. I personaly know of a six year old girl whose dress caught on fire and she ran four blocks to her house causing burns on a majority of her body and nearly died. It happened. Its real. It occured here in the real world. And she was not a Numenorean or Elve or anyone with special powers.

I could tell you about the monks in Asia who burned themselves alive and amazingly kept their composure, not crying out or even twitching for sevral minutes while they were consumed. That took a will power and physical control that seems to defy logic and reason. It happened. Its real. It occured here in the real world. And they were not Numenoreans or Elves or anyone with special powers.

The point is this, in the film, yes we see several other scenes of the aproach to the tombs of the kings and can calculate how far it is, the number of stairs, degree of inclines, etc. Knight of Gondor showed this completely in his series of still on page one of this very thread. But in the film we see Denethor catching on fire, running out of the crypt and then a few seconds on the rampway before he takes the plunge.

I think this is called "willing suspension of disbelief". It is evident in films beyond LOTR. And it is evident in the LOTR book also.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Lets just remember that.

[alatar]

Alatar -- none of that changes the physical demands of supplying the muscles with glycogen. The greatest car in the world, product of the best enginering, design and manufacturing, cannot travel without gasoline. A car designed to travel with a top speed of 100 mph cannot go 200 mph no matter who is pushing down on the pedals.
Agreed. But the Professor, through his writing, convinces me that Balrogs are as common as clover, and so persons running 135 miles without Gatorade or a corporate sponsor is not unusual.

Running has little to do with motivation or urgency. It has a great deal to me with the mechanics of the human body and the physical laws which govern it.
As I know...once had to trace the biological path when a person rings a doorbell from the molecular to cognitive, and also worked with myosin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myosin), and so you can see by my name dropping that I can pretend to know running as you do. ;)

To a world used to comic books, superheroes, Chinese fighters who can balance on 200 foot pine tree limbs, and other fantasies, perhaps the run of the Three Hunters is believable.
And movies and the nightly news ("Bigfoot captured on film voting for Clinton!")

Many Tolkien book purists take great delight in bashing the Jackson films for every little thing they can think of that defies rigid logic. This Denethor plunge is but one example. On the previous page, Knight of Gondor uses several film stills to show just how far this distance is and concludes he could not make that run in less than three minutes. He concludes it would be impossible. And everybody piles on posting humorous witicisms about what a horses *** Peter Jackson is for showing it like this.
I'm not a purist, but I take delight in making fun of the overtly silly as a way of questioning why the plunge, for example, was better than the pyre.

But when it comes to their precious book - the True Believers march in lockstep and will trot out any number of hoops and jump through them when challenged.
At that time, creative thinking, imaginative reasoning and plain old fashioned "its a fantasy for heavens sake" take over.

I see this as hypocrisy.
And it is. Everyone has sacred cows penned up somewhere. Ever go cow-tipping?

I could tell you about cases of people catching on fire and running several blocks to get help. I personaly know of a six year old girl whose dress caught on fire and she ran four blocks to her house causing burns on a majority of her body and nearly died. It happened. Its real. It occured here in the real world. And she was not a Numenorean or Elve or anyone with special powers.

I could tell you about the monks in Asia who burned themselves alive and amazingly kept their composure, not crying out or even twitching for sevral minutes while they were consumed. That took a will power and physical control that seems to defy logic and reason. It happened. Its real. It occured here in the real world. And they were not Numenoreans or Elves or anyone with special powers.
Note that I'm a skeptic, and so would need hard evidence even if I saw the things that you witnessed. Sorry, that's just me.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Lets just remember that.
I wouldn't have it otherwise. Challenge what I write, and I will do the same and we will be the better for it (and if I get annoying, let me know that too ;)).

[Sauron the White]

A very good reply Alatar - and in fine spirit and I appreciate that.

My point is simply that ALL OF US - you, me, the whole bunch of us, willingly suspend our disbelief for something we are willing to invest ourselves in. Its easy. And without it, much of literature and film would fall flat on its collective face.

Sidebar anecdote where I can talk about my kids---- my daughter - who is 30 - gave me the film TALLADEGA NIGHTS to watch the other day. She knows I hate contemporary silly comedies but said this one "was really funny". So I watched it and felt it was one of the worst films I had ever seen. She was highly offended when I told her. I reminded her of a scene where the characters explain that they have stripped all the sponsor decals off the racecar because not a single sponsor is still supporting them. Its the ME car since only they are behind it. Fine. But less than a minute later the car is revealed positively covered with dozens, perhaps scores of sponsor decals. When I mentioned this I was told I was making too much of it and I should just go with it.

And she was right. To enjoy that film, I had to willingly suspend my disbelief a little. Okay - I had to willingly suspend my disbelief a great deal. But I never liked it from the very start, was unwilling to invest myself into it, and thus every flaw stood out like a sore thumb.

I am not going to go on some Will Ferrell fan site and start bashing the movie. That would be pointless.

Does any of this make sense? Is my point coming across at all? This is a great site. But the smugness and air of superiority some of the True Believers have regarding the movies is a bit much given their own altar of worship. Your point about sacred cows it would appear is much the same.

[Quempel]

We should just call Mythbusters and let Adam and Jamie sort it all out.

It's a fantasy book and a fantasy film. No ring can actually make people disappear. Neither are there gaint eagles flying around with short hairy footed people in their claws. Hey maybe in a fantasy world people can run 145 miles in a day, and a man on fire can run up three flights of stairs through the woods and over the hill only to jump off a cliff. Its a fantasy. Not real. Both the book and the movie.

And for the record freezing someone in carbonite isn't real either. Nor are 50 foot apes.

[Knight of Gondor]

Aragorn was the greatest of living men, of a kind seldom seen in Middle-Earth, even in the third age. It is improbable that a regular man could run the distance he ran. Far more improbable that an eighty-something man could! But he was of the race of Numenor. Legolas was Elf-kind, that does not die. Gimli was of the hardy mountain-folk, a dwarf. None of these can modern science tell us anything about.

This is not a NORMAL world they live in. The sun is a vessel of light that sails overhead. A star is actually a Silmaril kindled on the breast of Elwing, who bore it to Earendil the mariner.

In reality, the dead cannot linger because of a curse pronounced by living man. No spell can hold a door closed in today's world, and as yet, no cloak is available to shield the body from the sight of enemies.

We don't go to Tolkien's world to read the ordinary. We go to read the extraordinary. Of course, this is not a blank check to superimpose an alternate reality whenever necessary. If the Three Hunters were more hardy in achieving their journey, it is not a dues ex machina to say this is fantasy. (Even Eomer was astounded at their deed, showing that there are still standards of performance which the Three Hunters surpassed.) It is simply an alternate world where extraordinary people do extraordinary things.

And if you simply must persist in dietary nitpicking, may I point out the unknown factor of the content of glycogen in lembas? :) Recall, without lembas, Frodo and Sam would have laid down to die long before achieving their mission.

[Sauron the White]

Knight of Gondor.... thank you for your post which proves in bold capital letters just my point. Many people here revel in some perverse delight in attacking the Jakcosn films while defending to the death every single word of the books. They use deductive reasoning, logic, calculations, common sense, mathematics, and any other device they can employ to make the films look bad. Fine. But when it comes to the books, they put on the cloak of the True Believer and act as if they are defending the Word of the Lord from infidels.

When you attack the films that is fair game. When other attack the books that is nitpicking. Do you not see the hypocrisy?

I thought we were done on this topic yesterday when alatar and I appeared to reach a very acceptable accomodation and understanding. But if you want to go again, I will oblige you.

In your post you did exactly what I predicted some would do to justify the feat of running 135 miles in 3 days without any training. Here is what I posted yesterday asking how a Mr. Andy Jones could run over 100 miles in one day.

And what did Mr. Andy Jones do to train for this amazing feat which seems to stand by itself in all of humankind? Was he merely motivated? Was he pursuing something the gave him god-like abilities? Did he take some pills, magic foodstuffs, or drugs giving him the power of a comic book superhero to do things beyond the abilities of mere mortals? Was he a member of some powerful race of beings whose physical abilities defying his seemingly human shell of a body?

Your explaination uses several of these to explain how it worked in LOTR. Ray Charles could have seen this coming.

In point of fact, I said in the beginning that I could buy the idea of Legolas performing this feat given the extraordinary physiology of Elves. Aragorn may have been given long life but I know of nothing which allowed his muscles to work independently of the rest of the human race. Being a great hunter, tracker and explorer is one thing - being able to run superhuman distances is quite another.

And now we come to Gimli. Dwarves may be strong, they may be hardy, they may be tough, and they may be great to have on your side in a fight. But their anatomy and physiology WORK AGAINST THE ABILITY TO RUN. Long distance runners alomst exclusively have very small body frames compared to most of the population. They have longer legs and weaker upper bodies with little upper body muscle mass. They tend to be thin or even skinny. But their leg muscles would shame the average football player. Their physiology and anatomy helps them run. The body of a dwarf- short stunted legs, heavy upper body with lots of muscle mass, is the direct opposite of a runners body. It is foolish and totally contradictory to fact to think tht someone with this body type and no long distance training could run 135 miles in three days... even with your magic drug of lembas.

But that was not my point from the start. My point is that the True Believers, the Defenders of the Word, will employ all means of creative thinking to justify anything JRRT wrote and do so with a completely straight face. At the same time, many enjoy ripping the films to shreds ignoring the faults of their own love. That is hypocrisy and I wish it would stop or at least be tempered with the realization of what is really happening here.

[alatar]

In your post you did exactly what I predicted some would do to justify the feat of running 135 miles in 3 days without any training. Here is what I posted yesterday asking how a Mr. Andy Jones could run over 100 miles in one day.
Four days, and that's assuming that the planet that is Middle Earth turned one every 24 hours. Without a sizeable satellite like our moon, who knows what its rotation would be...

alatar prepares to bring out quantum mechanics to defend to the death (of reason) the works of Tolkien.

In point of fact, I said in the beginning that I could buy the idea of Legolas performing this feat given the extraordinary physiology of Elves. Aragorn may have been given long life but I know of nothing which allowed his muscles to work independently of the rest of the human race. Being a great hunter, tracker and explorer is one thing - being able to run superhuman distances is quite another.
My take on Tolkien's world is that we're running down from concentrated power to the more mundane and pedestrian. Elves leave, the world no longer looks like Lorien, Men live shorter lives (from 900 years to 1/10 that, and when I get the time I will graph the life expectancy curve while noting the outlier that is Elessar), and so everything is not exactly like it is today. And note that superhuman distances, as you say, is subjective. Look at what human kind has done. The Great Wall, the Pyramids, Monday Night Football - these seemingly superhuman creations were created by the hands of average Joe's and Jane's, but they look unbelievable to me, and I have electricity.

Did the warrior messenger that ran the first marathon, Pheidippides, train extensively and wear custom made sneakers? Sure, he may have died after delivering his message, but that was due his seeing the Marathon to Athens bus schedule that would have taken him the same distance in a third of the time for 2 dinars.

And now we come to Gimli. Dwarves may be strong, they may be hardy, they may be tough, and they may be great to have on your side in a fight. But their anatomy and physiology WORK AGAINST THE ABILITY TO RUN. Long distance runners alomst exclusively have very small body frames compared to most of the population. They have longer legs and weaker upper bodies with little upper body muscle mass. They tend to be thin or even skinny. But their leg muscles would shame the average football player. Their physiology and anatomy helps them run. The body of a dwarf- short stunted legs, heavy upper body with lots of muscle mass, is the direct opposite of a runners body. It is foolish and totally contradictory to fact to think tht someone with this body type and no long distance training could run 135 miles in three days... even with your magic drug of lembas.
Four days. And Gimli may not be the sprinter that Jackson purported, but the creature did not tire. He most likely had to continually 'catch up' while the other two Hunters stood around and chatted about Legolas's hair, but still he could stay with them. And it's well known that Dwarves carried secret containers of helium which could be used to inflate their leather jerkins. Legolas obviously towed the floating Gimli behind him like a balloon - if that's not obvious from the text, I just don't know what else to say...

But that was not my point from the start. My point is that the True Believers, the Defenders of the Word, will employ all means of creative thinking to justify anything JRRT wrote and do so with a completely straight face. At the same time, many enjoy ripping the films to shreds ignoring the faults of their own love. That is hypocrisy and I wish it would stop or at least be tempered with the realization of what is really happening here.
You tend to see this trait in humans. Love is blind, and all that. My guess is that if you were to look into some of the other parts of the forum, you might see the same skepticism that you read so much here in regards to the Peter Jackson films.

;)

[Bêthberry]

Fine. But when it comes to the books, they put on the cloak of the True Believer and act as if they are defending the Word of the Lord from infidels.


And Eru help the person who dares comment the least bit questioningly about Tolkien's style. They'd need at least Harry Potter's Invisibility Cloak for self-defense.

*runs swiftly away--for how many miles or days I won't say--from al's quantum mechanics and the dread horseman*

[Sauron the White]

They met up with Eomer and company on the fourth day. The vast bulk of that 135 was done in three days time.

Nothing that has been said changes the basic human anatomy or physiology. Glycogen supplies muscles and the muscles must be trained over long periods of time to store glycogen. Nothing that has been said gets around that basic fact of reality.

Thank you for pointing out what happens when an untrained runner runs 20 miles - they can drop dead. While doing my six miles this morning I thought of that Marathon soldier and you beat me to it. Now double that and do it for three straight days. Impossible.

But Alatar, again I thank you. You join with others to prove my point. I am not arguing about the Three Hunters in principle. My point has been said again and again that what I am railing against in hypocrisy. Over and over again, this site has been used by the True Believers to bash the Jackson films. They use every manner of argument including, logic, reasoning, their deductive powers, mathematics, philosophy, common sense, physics, science and good old fashioned creative thinking. And god bless all of you for being so smart.

But those same people, when it comes to works of JRRT, have a blind spot that is immense. Yesterday you described it as your own sacred cow.

Regardless if you love the books or if you love the films - and I happen to love both - it takes a deliberate effort to believe in what we love --- its called the willing suspension of disbelief. We all do it. But when its quickly and blindly extended to the books with their holes and faults, but not the films with their holes and faults that is hypocrisy. And that is an ugly mantle to wrap yourself in.

And it's well known that Dwarves carried secret containers of helium which could be used to inflate their leather jerkins. Legolas obviously towed the floating Gimli behind him like a ballon - if that's not obvious from the text, I just don't know what else to say...

That was truly funny. It made me laugh. :D

[Finduilas]

Could I suggest that the hypocrisy is caused by the fact that since Tolkien created ME, he is able to make the impossible possible, but since PJ is only the director of a movie based of LotR, he is considered by the "True Believers" to have no right in doing such things? Its Tolkiens world. Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas can, in his world run that far in that amount of time. Denethor on fire..... well, he didn't.

I don't want to join in on this arguement, but I did want to make an excuse for the hypocrisy(and sure, I'm often a hypocrite...:rolleyes:).

[Sauron the White]

Fin ... interesting take on it all. I simply find nothing in all of the ME writings to indicate that the normal human physics and physiology have been drastically altered to permit such a thing. Or are we back to "its only make believe to go with it"? In the end that excuses everything.

[Quempel]

Could I suggest that the hypocrisy is caused by the fact that since Tolkien created ME, he is able to make the impossible possible, but since PJ is only the director of a movie based of LotR, he is considered by the "True Believers" to have no right in doing such things? Its Tolkiens world. Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas can, in his world run that far in that amount of time. Denethor on fire..... well, he didn't.

I don't want to join in on this arguement, but I did want to make an excuse for the hypocrisy(and sure, I'm often a hypocrite...:rolleyes:).

I agree.

And once again, it's a fantasy book and movie. So in impossible world of reality sure a human can't run that many miles in a day. But in a fantasy book...they can. Superman flys because of the high he gets off our yellow sun, but in reality humans don't fly. It is called a fantasy book/movie for a reason. Funny that it's ok to believe PJ's Denathor can run three miles while burning up steep slopes and it's believable part of the movie fantasy, but heaven forbid Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli run 145 kilo's (was Tolkien talking English Meters or American Miles?)

Hello pot met kettle.

And for the record Middle Earth was Tolkien's world, not Peter Jackson's. Pete just interpreted it and made movies, he did not invent it. And that is the difference between the two. Again I point out my statement about Gibson, it is the same with Jackson. Just because a producer/director made tons of awards and money off of a story, does not make it their story. Same can be said for any director (such as Lucas) who make movies out of stories that have long been written by others.

I must say however, this debate, or whatever it is, has drawn me out of lurking. Which can be considered either a good or bad thing, depending on the point of view.

[Knight of Gondor]

I honestly feel that all of this is pointless. It's like demanding to know where Gandalf peed while he was imprisoned on Orthanc, or how Luthien could cloak herself in the guise of another animal. These intrusive "that's not real!" objections tend to indicate (to me) that if all of these challenges come to your mind, you're not a fantasy buff.

When you attack the films that is fair game. When other attack the books that is nitpicking. Do you not see the hypocrisy?

Actually...no. Peter Jackson's job was to convert the books from print to movie. He wasn't hired to rewrite LotR. All in all, I give the man high marks, I believe he did a good job.

Aragorn may have been given long life but I know of nothing which allowed his muscles to work independently of the rest of the human race. Being a great hunter, tracker and explorer is one thing - being able to run superhuman distances is quite another.

I don't quite feel the compulsion to defend the act. I am certain there are numerous other examples of implausibility within the novels. But I note that absence of knowledge ("I know of nothing") is not knowledge of absence (he could not have).

But that was not my point from the start. My point is that the True Believers, the Defenders of the Word, will employ all means of creative thinking to justify anything JRRT wrote and do so with a completely straight face. At the same time, many enjoy ripping the films to shreds ignoring the faults of their own love. That is hypocrisy and I wish it would stop or at least be tempered with the realization of what is really happening here.

Naturally, fantasy aficionados would like to reconcile the differences between the real world and Middle-Earth to make belief and acceptance easier for their rational minds. I feel that fantasy in this case does not need defending.

Fantasy exists as a medium of escapism for many, if not most. I'll wager that most of your readers endeavoring to defend the otherwise implausible moments in Lord of the Rings are doing so because they want to believe it is attainable in the real world. They would rather make our world in the image of Middle-Earth than the opposite.

If real life is the apple, fantasy is the orange. The defining trait of escapism is in immersing one's self in an alternate world; its very merit of the orange lies in being different from the apple. To try to reconcile the orange into the apple is defeating the very purpose of the orange.

I also think you miss the point regarding fault-finding in the film. Having accepted the novels, the quarrels and nitpicking result from the disparities between them and the film adaptation. Finding logical faults in one thing alone (the books) is much different than finding fault between two things (translation from book to film), especially if one thing is supposed to be a translation between mediums of two things.

Hence, when Denethor races for miles while on fire to jump off the pinnacle of Minas Tirith (look out beloooow), fans protest not so much that this is impractical and illogical, but that it is different from the book's events, which are far more believable.

They met up with Eomer and company on the fourth day. The vast bulk of that 135 was done in three days time.

Nothing that has been said changes the basic human anatomy or physiology. Glycogen supplies muscles and the muscles must be trained over long periods of time to store glycogen. Nothing that has been said gets around that basic fact of reality.

Okay, let's get mathematical about this. The average mortal human running speed is about 15 miles an hour. Faster runners can achieve faster speeds, but let's stay with 15 mph. Discounting for the moment the need for sustenance and rests, running at the average 15 miles per hour, one could achieve 135 miles' distance in nine hours of solid running.

Obviously, mortal humans cannot keep up a constant speed of running. Let's say, for more than 15 minutes, or one quarter of an hour at a time. Multiplying nine hours by four, we can surmise that 36 intervals of 15 minutes at a time running at 15 miles an hour would achieve the same distance as 9 hours of solid running.

Now let us allot 72 hours (three days) and not count the extended "day four" period of time during which the Three Hunters meet Eomer. Multiplying 72 by 4, we find that there are a total of 288 quarter-hour periods in the span of three 24-hour days. Therefore, the Three Hunters need only have spent nine percent of their journeying time running at a constant speed of 15 miles an hour for fifteen minutes at a time.

To be merciful, we could cut the periods of running down to 10 minutes' time. The distance could then be achieved with 54 intervals running 15 miles an hour, or only about one-fifth of the alloted time of 72 hours.

To be further merciful (accounting for the time(s) of rest and sleep), let's only allot 60 hours. That's 240 periods of 15 minutes each running at 15 miles an hour for ten minutes at a time. Thus requiring only 23% of the time to be used to run.

On the negative side, there were breaks to find tracks and breaks for rest and sustenance.

But if we are searching for a naturalistic explanation for an otherwise improbable deed, we must also account for the hardiness of the races of men, elves and dwarves, and for the otherworldly virtue of the Elvish waybread.

Let me know if you have objections to my math...I'm not above simple errors, but I used a calculator and double-checked my figures, and as a university business student, I have a pretty good background in college math.

[alatar]

Fin ... interesting take on it all. I simply find nothing in all of the ME writings to indicate that the normal human physics and physiology have been drastically altered to permit such a thing. Or are we back to "its only make believe to go with it"? In the end that excuses everything.
"Drastically" is a subjective word. Try living 900 years. Guessing that your blood chemistry is slightly different as you need to clean out all of those 'free radicals' that can build up, which can shoot holes in your DNA, which can lead to copying errors, ...

Would the same human - twins - live longer in Mordor or Bree (assuming no one had them from dinner)? Could the Third Age have a world more like Lorien than Mordor? What does that do for the blood? Why do some present day athletes train at higher altitudes with sparse oxygen (besides having time shares that they can't unload) other than to increase their stamina? What if Third Age Middle Earth was a few more percentages of oxygen and less nitrogen? Why have some athletes been caught taking performance-altering drugs? Could these 'drugs' be part of the bread that Aragorn eats?

Note that some are hypocrites and some just like a good argu...discussion. ;)

I completely understand your point. But to me, with all of the other unbelievable things in Middle Earth, I find the running of the Three easily explained in the Books. As others have said, I carp about PJ as (1) it's genetic with me, (2) I could have done better - I just lack the talent, resources and experience and (3) it sure beats looking at data.

Thanks for playing along.


** It's funny, but last night my son, no where close to being a teenager, asked me to talk about the Lord of the Rings while he crossed over into sleeping. He saw that I was reading HoME - that's how it started. Anyway, he's watched all of the Peter Jackson movies (My son...Duh!) and we referred to them as he remembers the movies and RotK video game (that used movie clips) better than the story he's never read. Anyway, he said of Gimli, "He fell down a lot. He's stupid!"

Thanks PJ. My job's a little harder now that I have to undo some of your work.

[Sauron the White]

I will fight the urge to proudly beat my chest and proclaim that all these intellectual gymnastics only again prove my ultimate point.............. BUT ...........
okay ... lets discuss.


Knight of Gondor ....... excellent post and very good use of matematics and science. I only wish that you and others here knew as much about the physiology of running as you do about Tolkien. A well trained distance runner trains for four to six months to run a single 26 mile marathon. After that grueling effort, they usually take from several days to a week off. You need that for your muscles to rest and recoup. I have run many marathons and was well trained for all of them. For most of them I could not go to work the next day and I taught at a desk. Sometimes you can barely lift your leg more than a few inches off the ground that evening after you complete the 26 miles.

It is simply a physical impossibility that an untrained individual can run the equal of 1.6 marathons three days in a row. Just cannot be done given the physical anatomy and the mechanics and demands of running.

Is there some reason why this is not sinking in?

This is not about formulas, this is not about mathematics, this is not about super powered baked goods or anything else. Like Robert DeNiro says in THE DEERHUNTER ... "this is this".

You can be a strapping hulk of a man who can work a 12 hour shift in a factory or lumber mill but you cannot run very far without a long period of training. You can be a killing machine soldier but you cannot run very far without a long period of training. You can be the most motivated person in the world chasing the demons of Hell itself to save your loved ones, but you cannot run very rar without a long period of training.

Its simple physical anatomy and physiology.

Why is this not sinking in?

I will agree... and let me put this in caps so I am clear...

I KNOW THIS IS A FANTASY.
I KNOW THIS IS A WORLD CREATED BY JRRT.
I KNOW HE IS FREE TO MAKE IT UP AS HE GOES ALONG.
I KNOW THAT JACKSON DID NOT CREATE THIS WORLD.

Yes, so lets get all that out of the way.

By one point from the beginning is that the same rigid standard which is applied (with grinning delight by some here) to pointing out the foibles and errors of the Jackson films is totally absent when discussing anything that approaches a hole, defect or shortcoming in the books. Alatar seems to be fair-minded enough to see that and admit. What is wrong with this whole thing? IS it me?

I refuse to accept the idea that its a fantasy written by JRRT and thus anything he put in there is 100% perfection regardless of the failings of its own internal structure. Even a fantasy world has an internal structure that it must adhere to. That is fundamental.

Maybe I am the fool for trying to get people to see that their Emperor occassionally runs the streets lacking proper clothing. Not always - not most of the time - but some of the time..... occassionally.

And I still love the Emperor regardless.

[Quempel]

Even a fantasy world has an internal structure that it must adhere to. That is fundamental

This is where I see the difference, to me a fantasy world does not have to have an internal structure to adhere to. It is not a fundamental part of the fantasy world, unlike reality. This is why I can wrap my head around the Three Hunters being able to run for miles on end, its not real. It is also why I can believe (even if it is a bad choice on PJ's part) that Denathor can run on fire and jump off a cliff. It is also why I can wrap my head around the idea that hobbit's, jedi's and whatever else can be in the middle of a spewing volcano and not have their lungs burnt to crisp by the sulfiric acids in the air, much less the heat.

I do find it interesting that some people can accept certain portions of the fantasy world, without being able to accept other parts.

Why is it so hard to imagine that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are fantasy characters in a book/movie and could possibly run that far, yet it is easy to accept some of the other non-reality issues? The fact is there are no Elves on this planet. There are no Hobbits, Lembas, Orcs, Giant Eagles, or Tree Herding Ents. Why apply the standards of reality to the fantasy? Fantasy is something we all love to think about and some even wish could happen. But the reality is there is no Aragorn coming to save the day, no great war of good and evil, and no way a real person could run that far.

You assume that our standards and rules apply to those living beings in middle earth, and it is my opinion those rules and principles do not need to apply to middle earth.

What I have a problem with is not the whole Denethor running while on fire, sure it didn't make sense, but why the change at all. The book Denethor death was much better, it almost was a redeaming death for Denethor, the movie made him look like a weak fool, not a greedy jerk (for lack of better terms here) that I had always pictured him to be who finally realized what a jerk he had been, especially to Faramir.

[Sauron the White]

There are times I feel like someone who has been preaching to the villagers at some backwater in Appalachia about the evil of incest. They keep shaking their heads marvelling at the crap that stranger keeps babbling. They are happy with their ways and accept them completely. But they smile at him and keep on keeping on.

[Knight of Gondor]

I will fight the urge to proudly beat my chest and proclaim that all these intellectual gymnastics only again prove my ultimate point

Your point being that Tolkien fans adhere to an inconsistent need to defend Tolkien while attacking Peter Jackson? I have already illustrated the differences, and already stated that I feel no inner compulsion to prove or disprove the capability of the Three Hunters to do so. I entertained the challenge strictly for the intellectual challenge it provided.

Allow me to illustrate.

It is simply a physical impossibility that an untrained individual can run the equal of 1.6 marathons three days in a row.

No it isn't. It has been done before.

There are times I feel like someone who has been preaching to the villagers at some backwater in Appalachia about the evil of incest. They keep shaking their heads marvelling at the crap that stranger keeps babbling. They are happy with their ways and accept them completely. But they smile at him and keep on keeping on.

Please avoid being offensive. Pointing out inconsistent fans is one thing. Insulting those fans is quite another.

[Sauron the White]

What is now obvious to me is this. Many here believe all or some of the following:

1- if JRRT wrote it - its right and shut your mouth otherwise.
2- it does NOT matter if it makes sense to you, it makes sense to us because we believe
3- this is a fantasy and in a fantasy there does not have to be anything real
4- magic stuff like super races of people, magic foodstuffs and will power can make anything possible despite the rules of science and physiology
5-Peter Jackson sucks .... and what else needs to be said
6- Jackson did not make a page for page word for word translation of the book to film so anything that deviates from that is heresy... and what did I do with that bundle of kindling
7-if any of items 2 through 6 do not work for a particular argument, please always refer back to item #1

You have a wonderful all encompassing Catch 22 here. If Tolkien created his world, anything he has his creations do in his world is perfect and thus cannot be worng. Thus, there are no errors in the work, there are no holes (other than the previously mention major loophole), there are no lapses in logic or reason, and there can be no defying of scinece, physiology or anything else we might normally call reality. We got it covered and can never be wrong.

Since Peter Jakcson did not create that same world, any deviation on behalf of Jackson from the Written Word is automatically wrong and in error.

Now who is insulting who with that type of reasoning? And you hide behind the presumption that you are engaging in free and open intellectual debate. Gimme a break.

I give Alatar a lot of credit. He admits his sacred cows. He makes good arguments but still admits there is some hypocrisy involved. I guess to some others even that admission is heresy.

I went to a catholic school for 12 years taught by priests and nuns. Eavery semester we took religion class - not really religion but Catholic Religion. In the end, every discussion came down to two things:
1- This is Church doctrine is right and proper and correct because the Pope says it is so.
2- The Pope speaks with the word and approval from God and can never be wrong.

This discussion and the arguments posed forth take me back to those 12 years of education.

[alatar]

Being a picker of bones and a quibbler extraordinaire:

What is now obvious to me is this. Many here believe all or some of the following:
Many assumes more than 50%. That to me is way to high considering the persons posting in the Movies.

1- if JRRT wrote it - its right and shut your mouth otherwise.
You might want to check your keyboard cable. Surely some will disagree with you when you take on Tolkien, but you can post all the same. Think of it as posting, "Go Browns!" on a Pittsburgh Steelers (American football) fan site. At least here people will use good grammar.

2- it does NOT matter if it makes sense to you, it makes sense to us because we believe
I came from this from the other side. I was very anti-PJ all due to the Gandalf vs Witch-King scene. I was amazed that everyone did not agree with me that the scene was the worst thing PJ could ever do. Now, with some help from posters on the other side, I have learned to love the bomb.

3- this is a fantasy and in a fantasy there does not have to be anything real
Not true. The reason Tolkien's world works ("Praise him beyond all praise!") is that, for much of it, it is internally consistent. Dragons talk but do not farm. Ale never gives anyone a hangover. Tolkien sets up and follows his own rules...er...for the most part. Check out the Books section for talking foxes, talking trolls, steam locomotives and other oddities (dare I say mistakes?!?) noted by members here.

4- magic stuff like super races of people, magic foodstuffs and will power can make anything possible despite the rules of science and physiology
By accepting Tolkien's world, you accept his rules. Lembas help the body and will but will not sate your thirst. Elven cloaks will not stop arrows. And again, concerned the 'running' topic, you assume that his world works like ours when the magic etc would indicate otherwise.

5-Peter Jackson sucks .... and what else needs to be said
Count the pages posted by me in the Sequence by Sequence, and yet I'm still going (it's a gift).

6- Jackson did not make a page for page word for word translation of the book to film so anything that deviates from that is heresy... and what did I do with that bundle of kindling
It's out back by the garage. I swallowed many changes, like many (there's that word again) others here did as well. But, even you have to admit, some of the changes were just silly.


Since Peter Jakcson did not create that same world, any deviation on behalf of Jackson from the Written Word is automatically wrong and in error.
What I hope is apparent is when you know the lyrics to a song - Beatles, The Who, Avril Lavigne - and when some one covers the song, the difference is magnified due to the difference in singer and the change in words. You note a change in the expected pattern and so examine it more closely.

Then you just pile on for lack of other entertainment.

Now who is insulting who with that type of reasoning? And you hide behind the presumption that you are engaging in free and open intellectual debate. Gimme a break.
Think that the Faithful, the Heretic and the Stormcrow (that would be me) all post here.

I give Alatar a lot of credit.
I accept PayPal.

He admits his sacred cows. He makes good arguments but still admits there is some hypocrisy involved. I guess to some others even that admission is heresy.
As I've said many many times before: "Take a breath - remember, we’re typing on an internet site regarding a man’s work. Our eternal destiny and that of the world is not going to be decided here." Unless you cannot accept that the Three Hunters ran 135 miles in 3.5 days...

I went to a catholic school for 12 years taught by priests and nuns. Eavery semester we took religion class - not really religion but Catholic Religion. In the end, every discussion came down to two things:
1- This is Church doctrine is right and proper and correct because the Pope says it is so.
2- The Pope speaks with the word and approval from God and can never be wrong.

This discussion and the arguments posed forth take me back to those 12 years of education.
Maybe your argument is with someone else then. I can truly understand that.

Anyway, I've posted here in fun, I'm done and care not how far Denethor did run.

[Knight of Gondor]

What is now obvious to me is this. Many here believe all or some of the following:

1- if JRRT wrote it - its right and shut your mouth otherwise.

I'm looking around and trying to figure out who you are talking to. Or about.

2- it does NOT matter if it makes sense to you, it makes sense to us because we believe
3- this is a fantasy and in a fantasy there does not have to be anything real

You seem intent on ignoring the previous points posted by Alatar and myself which indicate not a free-styling "anything goes" world, but a world where events extend just beyond our borders of mortality. C.S. Lewis once likened the miracles of Christ to a game of chess, where this move or that move may be taken back at certain points, but at no time do you suppose you can move any piece anywhere at any time. This destroys the value of the game, and creates unruly anarchy. So it would seem to be with fantasy. And again, if these little things continue to nag and irritate you (still further, that they don't bother others) then I submit for a second time that perhaps fantasy just isn't your cup of tea.

5-Peter Jackson sucks .... and what else needs to be said

You are either not referring to me, or did not read what I wrote. Either way, you owe it to us to make clear to whom you refer.

You have a wonderful all encompassing Catch 22 here. If Tolkien created his world, anything he has his creations do in his world is perfect and thus cannot be worng. Thus, there are no errors in the work, there are no holes (other than the previously mention major loophole), there are no lapses in logic or reason, and there can be no defying of scinece, physiology or anything else we might normally call reality. We got it covered and can never be wrong.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth at least, and to my knowledge, Alatar's. I do not believe anyone here suggests Tolkien is perfect, or is averse to highlighting flaws in the book. Tolkien himself was constantly rewriting the series.

I went to a catholic school for 12 years taught by priests and nuns. Eavery semester we took religion class - not really religion but Catholic Religion. In the end, every discussion came down to two things:
1- This is Church doctrine is right and proper and correct because the Pope says it is so.
2- The Pope speaks with the word and approval from God and can never be wrong.

This discussion and the arguments posed forth take me back to those 12 years of education.

The truth seems to come forth, and I believe that in revealing latent hostility towards religion, we have taken a step beyond the scope of this forum. For the record, as a born-again Christian, I reject the notion that any mortal (Pope or not, "Saint" or not, "Mother of God" or not) can attain perfection in word or deed on earth, save one, Jesus Christ. Anyone who claims to be without sin is a liar.

Nonetheless, this thread, this forum and this website were not created to debate or discuss specifically religious themes apart from Tolkien's world. If you would be so kind as to e-mail me, I would look forward to continuing the discussion there.

[Sauron the White]

First, I am sorry if I went to far in expressing my frustration at not being able to make my point.

Second, I was not expressing any hostility or anti-religious views - only attempting to show a comparison between the catch all the Catholic Church has to explain why they are right in matters of docctrine and why Tolkien purists are right. It is maddening at times.

Allow me to answer a specific point raised by Knight of Gondor. Sometimes I start typing a response when I should be rereading and soaking it up first. I guess the rule should be engage mind before fingers. I went back and read and reread your computations for running and times. Allow me to engage with you on that topic.

Okay, let's get mathematical about this. The average mortal human running speed is about 15 miles an hour. Faster runners can achieve faster speeds, but let's stay with 15 mph.

15 mph equals a four minute mile. No highly trained athlete runs a four minute mile for anything beyond a mile. Winning marathon times (26+miles) are always at about 5 minutes per mile or 12 mph. That is a difference in your calculations reducing them by 25%.

But again, we are not talking about your "average normal human". Not by a long stretch. We are talking about a highly trained superior athlete who has just run the equal of the Olympic Marathon making them the best in the world.

You want to use your "average normal human" - they cannot run one mile in ten minutes without training.

Discounting for the moment the need for sustenance and rests, running at the average 15 miles per hour, one could achieve 135 miles' distance in nine hours of solid running.

The world record for running 50 miles -just a bit more than the 45 miles per day we are using here - is four hours and 50 minutes. Please keep in mind two things when you think about that record. Running ultra marathons is a speciality, and extreme of an extreme that not even 1% of marathon runners attempt. Now we are taking the world record holder and we have the extreme of an extreme of an extreme. We are talking about the best long distance runner of all time. I will take a liberty here- and round that off to five hours. Even if a person were able to run that time for three straight days - the best distance runner in the history of the world would need 15 hours of time to run - not the 9 you calculate.


Obviously, mortal humans cannot keep up a constant speed of running. Let's say, for more than 15 minutes, or one quarter of an hour at a time. Multiplying nine hours by four, we can surmise that 36 intervals of 15 minutes at a time running at 15 miles an hour would achieve the same distance as 9 hours of solid running.

Many people here probably know tons more about the writings of JRRT than I could ever hope to do. I admit that. One thing I do know about is distance running. It is easier to run for a longer length of time in one sustained period than it is to run for a shorter distance - stop - rest- cool down - get up and run some more. The idea of running a long distance using this method is not really practical given the mechanics of muscles, how they work, how they cool down, and how fatigue begins to set in soon after. Your interval method is not the way long distances are run.


Now let us allot 72 hours (three days) and not count the extended "day four" period of time during which the Three Hunters meet Eomer. Multiplying 72 by 4, we find that there are a total of 288 quarter-hour periods in the span of three 24-hour days. Therefore, the Three Hunters need only have spent nine percent of their journeying time running at a constant speed of 15 miles an hour for fifteen minutes at a time.

The average person has difficulty running even an 8 minute pace. And that is giving them the benefit of the doubt that they could run a mile. An untrained person rarely can.

The Three Hunters did their ultra -marathon over a three day period in late February in a northern hemisphere climate. If you check sunrise and sunset tables you will find 12 hours of daylight available. Much is made in the books of travelling in daylight time. So they have 36 hours to run 145 miles or they must cover 4 miles every hours of every daylight hour available to them. They must cover 45 miles per day.

Running two-a-days is brutal and most runners reject it in favor of one longer run. Again, your interval method simply does not work for distance running. Nobody uses it. It contradicts basic anatomy and physiology.

The best you could hope to do would be two sessions of 22 miles each. Go and look up marathon times for the 26 mile race. When I used to run marathons my best time was 3:15 - thats a 7:30 mile for 26 straight miles. That put me in the top 15% of finishers out of nearly 4,000 trained runners. The average finishing time was over 9 minutes per mile. The Three Hunters were not trained marathon runners who could expect an average time of 9 minutes per mile. Even at that pace it would be only 5.5 miles covered in an hour. To get your 22 miles each of the Three Hunters would have to run for four straight hours. Then they could rest and have to do it all over again before the sunsets. Eight of the 12 hours available to them would be spent running at a 9 minute mile pace.

Here are some questions to consider about that run.

What is one their feet? The records and runners we are talking about are wearing highly developed running shoes of very light but durable material designed for one thing - running. The book describes two of our Three as wearing a type of heavy boot. Go and get a construction type workboot and try running in it for even a half mile. Again, this is not a matter of wil power, or motivation or desire. Its basic mechanics.

What is the terrain they are covering? Runners we are talking about run on solid and flat ground without holes or rocks or streams or anything that impedes their progress. Even through a winding city course, they run on a course that has been selected as runner friendly. Is that the terrain the Three Hunters were covering over their three days. I think not. It was much tougher in all respects. Whhat do you think that would do to both their times and increasing the wear and tear on their bodies?


There is not the space here - nor would anyone care to read it - if I attempted to explain the biomechanics of muscles and how they store and process glycogen to power them. It takes the average person nearly six months of training to properly prepare their muscles to store and use enough glycogen to run one race of 26 miles. And then most people can barely lift their feet the remainder of the day. Runners then take off several days or even weeks to recover. You cannot run a marathon a day - let alone over 1.6 marathons a day for three straight days.


To be merciful, we could cut the periods of running down to 10 minutes' time. The distance could then be achieved with 54 intervals running 15 miles an hour, or only about one-fifth of the alloted time of 72 hours.

To be further merciful (accounting for the time(s) of rest and sleep), let's only allot 60 hours. That's 240 periods of 15 minutes each running at 15 miles an hour for ten minutes at a time. Thus requiring only 23% of the time to be used to run.


As you can see the remainder of your calculations are way off. You do not have 60 hours but only 36 hours of daylight.... and perhaps a few hours of daylight on the morning of the fourth day. Maybe 40 hours. Your time available has been reduced by a full one-third. Your 15 minute interval period does not work. Your average speed given is wildly impractical. And you make no consideration at all for terrain and footwear. And as to the subject of muscles and glycogen, you did not even attempt to address that.


On the negative side, there were breaks to find tracks and breaks for rest and sustenance

How much time would that take away from you remaing four hours per day?

Funny thing is when I first read LOTR in 1971, I had never run long distances and the whole Three Hunters thing went by without a question from me. It worked and made sense. I started running in 1976 and marathons a year later. When I reread LOTR that chapter stood out like a sore thumb and it now borders on absurdity.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It is simply a physical impossibility that an untrained individual can run the equal of 1.6 marathons three days in a row.

It's the 'marathon' model that's leading you astray. Running 26+ miles in three hours or so is indeed a killing endeavor (athough triathletes seem to have energy left over).

But this is not what the Three Hunters did. They travelled from dawn to dusk (actually before dawn the first day). At the end of February in a northern latitude that would mean 9-10 hours/day of travel time. This means an average speed of 3.5-3.9 mph: that's a walking pace.

Perspective: most experienced backpackers will do 3.5 mi/hr in mountains, and 4 on the flat. Why on earth is it 'impossible' for the 3H to have done this over the rolling plains of Rohan? As to 'untrained": Aragorn is supposedly the greatest traveller in the world, and is moreover of the Line of Elendil. Legolas is an Elf, not given to human weariness, and (we are told) capable of sleeping on the move. This isn't exactly a human physiology! And Dwarves, within Middle-earth, are legendary for being stone-hard and enduring.

And you claim that these 3 explicitly superhuman individuals couldn't do what Stonewall Jackson's 'foot cavalry' did many times?

[Sauron the White]

wch - Tolkien describes them as running. They did not walk. JRRT also used the term "striding" which I take to mean a type of race walking where you are power walking at a pace much faster than a walk pace. They mixed is some race-walking with the running, but he mainly describes running.

I said in the beginning that I condede Legolas being able to perform this feat given that Elves are so very different and there is written evidence of that.

And for purposes of civility allow me to say that given the description of Aragorn, I could stretch myself to allow the possibility that he could possible do it IF there was far more walking involved than running.... and IF the terrain was almost completely flat without obstruction ..... and IF he had proper footwear to allow him to rack up those miles without long periods of recuperation .... and IF he was not tracking and looking for signs along the way. But okay, for purposes of debate, lets say Aragorn, being really special and unique could do it also.

Now we come to the most problematic of the bunch. Gimli. How tall is Gimli? My guess would be about 4 feet, maybe 4 feet 2 inches. Is that right or wrong? And he is a dwarf with a massive chest and very strong upper body and shorter, stunted legs. He weighed in the area of 200 pounds give or take and I would guess that most of his bulk and power was abovethe hips an his legs were the weakest part of his body. That type of body is the direct opposite of what body type is conducive to running or even power walking. If I am wrong, please scour the list of marathon finishers and name the one person with that type of body who ran a marathon recently.

And what was Gimli wearing on his feet? And what was he dressed in? And what weapons did he carry? Do you think for a minute that any of this was conducive to a long distance ultra- marathon of three days while they stopped and tracked repeatedly along the way? And all this on top of the fact that Gimli was untrained in such an undertaking?

But to believe JRRT, it was simple will power and desire that allowed him to overcome all of these practical, physical and scientific realities. Okay, thats called willing suspension of disbelief. You believe because you want to believe. You believe because you really like the story and the characters and want to go with it and not be a pain in the butt.

Fine. We all do it. Thats the way lots of books and films work.

But William, my point from the very start was a simple one. Many people here on this site love the books and will give them the largest dose of willing suspension of disbelief possible. We can accept that fact that an untrained dwarf can run 145 miles in three days over varied terrain while a modern marathon runner could not do it. Fine. But when it comes to the movies, watch out brother because the charts and graphs and maps and logic and reason and deduction and common sense all comes out in massive quantities to prove that Peter Jackson is either
a- a jerk
b- a moron
c- a heretic
d- a bad filmmaker
e- all of the above

What made me post about this was the excellent use of film stills on page one of this thread by Knight of Gondor. Using the exact stills from the film, he shows that the distance between where Denethor catches fire to the distance where he plunges to the ground was impossible to cover by a man engulfed in flames. I congratulate him on his effort. It is honest, straight forward and can be checked and rechecked for accuracy.

And then poster after poster piles on pretty much taking the position that Peter Jackson is indeed either a,b,c,d, or e from my above list. And what does this do? It reinforces preconveived beliefs that
a- the book is something on the level of Holy Writ and should never be altered, changed or deviated from, and
b- those LOTR movies sure did suck and lets laugh at them some more.

There is one other problem with this thread as I see it. I have just viewed the Denethor plunge scene on my DVD player. It is the same one as seen by the hundreds of millions of people who paid over a billion dollars to see it in the theaters. From the time Denethor starts his flaming run to the time he flies off the end of the rampway, exactly ten seconds of film time elapses. Ten seconds. What everyone in the theater saw was a man on fire for ten seconds. How many films over the years have given us a man on fire for far more of a length of time than that?

Theviewers of the film DID NOT SEE the series of stills that Knight of Gondor put up on the first page here with a description of the length of each area and an estimate of the time it would take to travel each. If we had seen Denethor completely run that entire length in flames and it take two to three minutes the result would have been absurd.

But that is not what was in the film and that was not what the viewers saw and that was not what was in the mind of those viewers. For them, it worked just like the rest of the film did.

Willing suspension of disbelief. That is at the heart of this. I use it when I read the books and I use it again when I view the films. I love both and cherish both.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I acknowledge your point about Gimli- although it is I suppose possible to imagine that mountain-bred, broad-chested Dwarves, like Sherpas and some Andean peoples, have much greater lung capacity and blood volume relative to body size than we do. I suppose when I read the books I envisioned the 'running' as being akin to the long-distance run/walk lope which Creeks and other Indians could maintain for hours and leagues, not the edge-of-endurance effort we see in competitive races.

And, again, I've done 20- 25 miles/day repeatedly in mountains with a sixty-pound pack and heavy boots. If one's objective is to keep moving for 10 or 12 hours, one sets one's pace to that level, not to 26-miles-as-fast-as-possible.

In any event, the Great Chase was *supposed* to be astonishing- wasn't Eomer duly amazed? "Wingfoot I name you." (It however bugs me that whatever Aragorn & Co did, the Orcs went farther faster, but nobody remarks on it).

Another 'goof' of Tolkien's of the same sort is his reliance on Army manuals to get marching distances right..but forgetting that Hobbits of course have a stride only about half that of fullsize humans. Frodo, Sam and Gollum must have been fair truckin' over parts of their journey!

On the 'hypocrisy' issue- I've never been very exercised over the likelihood of Plunging Steward, except for humor (and we all joke about the books, too). I just dislike the fact that Jackson eschewed the psychologically dramatic scene Tolkien wrote for another 'hey lookit me!' sfx shot.

[MatthewM]

I KNOW THIS IS A FANTASY.
I KNOW THIS IS A WORLD CREATED BY JRRT.
I KNOW HE IS FREE TO MAKE IT UP AS HE GOES ALONG.
I KNOW THAT JACKSON DID NOT CREATE THIS WORLD.


So if you then believe this, stop calling us all "hypocrites" for defending the books over the movies. Middle earth is not Jackson's world. He did a great job adapting it from book to screen, no doubt. Yet he did not adhere to some of the most pivotal details concerning characters and events. Therefore, no matter what you say- we will always talk and complain about the wrongly portrayed characters/events/etc. in Jackson's films.

And please stop comparing my faith with the books/JRRT. Thanks.

[Quempel]

I think this is where the problem lies for me. It’s not the plunge of Denethor that is so ridiculous to believe, it’s the fact that Jackson felt changing it from the book is what is unbelievable (to me). Yes I can suspend my disbelief with the plunge, what I have a hard time with is believing Peter Jackson thought his version of Denethors death was better than Tolkiens. It’s not the actual scene that is so hard to believe, it’s that Jackson actually thought he could do it better.

The bottom line is one can take Jackson’s billion dollar Oscar winning movie out of Tolkien’s world, and Tolkien’s world remains. However, one can not take Tolkien’s world out of Jackson’s work. If Tolkien had not written LoTR exactly what would have made Jackson his billions and won the awards, that’s right nothing. This is this and that is that.

Jackson interpreted Tolkiens work, and some of us backwards Appalachian inter-bread doofs actually think that Tolkien did a better job on the story. Call us backwater inbreeds dumb but we actually think the person who invented Middle Earth probably did a pretty good job with it. Some of us are not saying that Jackson did a bad job, but some of his changes were unbelievable, not because of the scene itself, but because the book simply did it better. Case in point Denethor’s death. It has absolutely nothing, nada, zilch to do with him running three miles on fire, it has to do with the fact that Jackson changed the scene completely, that is what is so unbelievable. The scene in the book was great, why change it. The change is what is unbelievable, not the actual scene. It has nothing to do with suspending our disbelief in fantasy, it has to do with our suspending our disbelief into thinking that Jackson actually interpreted the scene from the book they way he did.

To me at points in the movies and with some of the character changes Jackson did, I often wonder what book he read. I like the movies just fine, and it matters not to me how much money or awards they made and recieved, they are good movies. But they are Jackson interperation and some of his interpertations leave me wondering what I watched and why it was so far from the book when it didn't need to be.

[Sauron the White]

William ... thank you for the acknowledgement. Its appreciated. When you mention lung capacity that is one of those things that non-runners think is important because it is one of the first problems non runners encounter - being "out of breath". Funny thing is your lungs are probably the easiest physcial part of training since you are constantly taking in fresh air while you exercise unlike glycogen or muscle capacity which gives you the real trouble. I have heard many runners say their lungs could go for hundreds of miles , its the legs that kill them.

You trekking through the mountains is inspiring. I have a deathly fear of heights - or more accurately - falling from heights and can only admire mountains from the ground level.

Matthew - I acknowledge that Jackson did not invent Middle-earth. I give JRRT all respect and praise for that accomplishment. But in point of fact, legally, it did become Jacksons world to do as he pleased with it when New Line acquired the film rights and hired him to make the films. He did not build the house but he bought it and had the right to do what he wanted with it. So more semantics come into play.

I am not intending to compare anyones faith with the books. My point - and I am sorry if this was not made clear by me - was that after all these exchanges of points of view, debate, discussion and even argument, in the end it comes down to "if Tolkien wrote it and created it then its right in his world". Its an argument like having four aces up your sleeve in a poker game. Sure you can sit and play your hand against that person but in the end they will play the aces and you can never win. I thought of the same approach in discussions during my Catholic School education where the priests and nuns would willingly engage you in deep intellectual exchanges about all things but in the end the same aces up the sleeve were played. "It's this way because the Pope says it is and the Pope is picked by God and can do no wrong." Pretty much ends any discusssion right there as those aces come into play.

That has nothing to do with yours, mine or anyones religions beliefs. The comparison is only made because of the commonality of the unlevel power of it.

Quempel... you say

This is this and that is that.

I agree with you 100%. But I take it further. Like Robert DeNiro said in THE DEERHUNTER ....... "this is this.... this isn't something else.... this is this".

A book is a book and a film is a film. A book is not a film and a film is not a book. Each has its own properties, its own integrity and its own dynamics. Comparing them is like comparing apples to cinder blocks. In the end the experts astound no one by declaring that after exhaustive study apples do indeed taste better than cinder blocks ..... but cinder blocks make for better building material.

[Quempel]

For the record I like The Deer Hunter just fine. :D

And I will leave it at that since I do not agree that since Newline owns the rights to the story it makes it their story. I really don't want to argue sematics this day.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Sauron- the lung cap is to me less significant than the 125% of 'normal' blood volume, which implies accelerated liver function and faster glycogen transfer to the muscles; it might also be the case that lembas is some sort of ultra-carb supplement as well. There may be faster filtering of lactic acid buildup as well.

In any event, the Hunters aren't moving at a marathon pace; that's objective given the time and distance, and no reason to think that they'd be burning calories at such a rate as to hit the energy wall at 20 miles.

[Sauron the White]

William ... not so sure about that. Please go to my post a few ago detailing the error in the numbers provided by Knight of Gondor. I ran some figures of my own and my best estimate was that they had to run 8 out of the 12 hours available to them during daylight each of the three days. Thats a measured pace of about 5.5 miles per hour or about a 10+ mile. That is probably too fast for the idea that they were both running and walking. But for purposes of discussion, lets go with that. For men of that size, carrying weapons and full clothing, wearing boots, and moving over various terrain, I would say they are burning calories at a pretty good rate.

Of course this line of thought can work against you and you probably see that coming. If we concede more walking to lower the heartrate and save on limited glycogen, then we increase the time necessary to complete the 145 miles. There will be a point where the could be walking at a moderate pace but would not have the time necessary to complete the task. But again, JRRT refers to both walking and striding - which is not walking at a moderate pace.

However, I concede I am NOT any kind of professional physiologist so I am going at this from somebody with 30+ years of running over 60,000 miles plus studying the subject as a hobby.

Again, I concede Legolas right from the start. And under the right conditions - which I am not sure were present - Aragorn being the tracker of his time - may have been able to rack up those kind of miles... but I am less sure of that. One day - okay. But I would hate to be his legs on day two and three. Gimli is a no brainer. No how - no way.

I am no expert on Tolkien despite multiple readings of the books over 30 years. Could you please tell me the properties of lembas as they are identified in the books? I have always thought of it as some sort of food alternative for short periods of time which gave a feeling of fullness and provided nutrition. I know of nothing which would indicate that it has any magical properties beyond that.

From the chapter Farewell to Lorien ............one of the elves who gives the lembas to Gimli
"One will keep a traveller on his feet for a day of long labour, ...."

Dwarves were used to hard manual labor. Their upper body muscles were well developed for various mining tasks and construction. But that is not running. Plenty of modern factory workers can work a ten hours shift at hard labor in a factory but could not run a half mile.

If Gimli had not trained in long distance running - or even a type of ME race-walking - his muscles would not have been able to absorb and utilize extra nutrition consumed on the road regardless. That would take months for his muscles to adapt to that exercise need. I remember them being in Lothlorien for a nice lengthy stay but recall nothing about an exercise program to acclimate them to running long distances.

Of course, some other poster already has the possibility covered when they claimed that just because the book does not say it did not happen could mean that it did. Again, the four aces up the sleeve - just a different sleeve.

Here is one thing I agree with on completely.

no reason to think that they'd be burning calories at such a rate as to hit the energy wall at 20 miles.

Exactly. A trained runner only hits that wall because of months of training. With an untrained, unprepared person of Gimli' size and build, the wall would hit him like the proverbial ton of bricks long before he ever hit double digit miles on the first day.

[alatar]

(It however bugs me that whatever Aragorn & Co did, the Orcs went farther faster, but nobody remarks on it).
But they ate only the best manflesh, which was fortified with time-released glycogen, amino acids and vitamins that could keep an orc on its feet running all day. It also contained a mild hallucinogen that made one think that a Balrog was in pursuit.

[Knight of Gondor]

Daniel Boone, the pioneer/frontiersman, was kidnapped by the Shawnee Indians, and he lived among them for a few months. When he heard they were going to attack the fort, he escaped and traveled 160 miles in four days to get back to warn the people of Boonesborough. Hmm...

[alatar]

Daniel Boone, the pioneer/frontiersman, was kidnapped by the Shawnee Indians, and he lived among them for a few months. When he heard they were going to attack the fort, he escaped and traveled 160 miles in four days to get back to warn the people of Boonesborough. Hmm...
But he wasn't a Dwarf, but a big man (http://www.danielboonetv.com/index.php?page=theme_song_lyrics); yes a big man. Actual height/stride not necessarily known.

[Sauron the White]

Knight of Gondor... as cute as the Daniel Boone story is, it could be true as follows. 40 miles per day for 4 days equals 160 miles. 4 miles WALKED for ten hours equals 40 miles per day. So it could be done. At least on paper in theory.

Of course, that has not a darn thing to do with Gimli doing 140 miles in 3 days.

The bigger problem here is that JRRTolkien himself described the activity of Gimli and company as both running and striding. Both activities burn almost three times the energy and gylcogen of normal walking making it impossible to sustain beyond two to three hours for the untrained runner.

[Quempel]

Knight of Gondor... as cute as the Daniel Boone story is, it could be true as follows. 40 miles per day for 4 days equals 160 miles. 4 miles WALKED for ten hours equals 40 miles per day. So it could be done. At least on paper in theory.

Of course, that has not a darn thing to do with Gimli doing 140 miles in 3 days.

The bigger problem here is that JRRTolkien himself described the activity of Gimli and company as both running and striding. Both activities burn almost three times the energy and gylcogen of normal walking making it impossible to sustain beyond two to three hours for the untrained runner.

You assume Gimli is untrained.

[Sauron the White]

I assume this because JRRT presented no evidence that he was a trained runner and had been in training for the several months preceding that feat. If there is ample evidence of his long distance in LOTR, please present it so I can be corrected. If not, my assumption is right and proper.

[Quempel]

There is no proof he did not train either, so I guess my assumption is right and proper.

You seem to be stuck on this whole Gimli being able to run issue. I have to wonder why, projecting emotions of some sort maybe?

Most here have said they can suspend disbelief on both the books and movies and it's not the disbelief of the movies itself but the fact that PJ added parts of the movie that were really not better than what Tolkien wrote.

As it were, it probably doesn't matter, as this arguement is getting rather old.

[alatar]

I assume this because JRRT presented no evidence that he was a trained runner and had been in training for the several months preceding that feat. If there is ample evidence of his long distance in LOTR, please present it so I can be corrected. If not, my assumption is right and proper.
Now I've not been able to dig up any true Dwarves from which to gather real hard evidence, but I have looked around and so am able to speculate:

How far can an untrained person walk? (http://walking.about.com/b/a/257857.htm) Assuming Gimli and the other two were healthy and had done some walking beforehand (i.e. from wherever to Rivendell, from Rivendell to Lorien), the linked article puts that number at 30 miles per 8 hour day.
Assuming 3 days, that's 90 miles
Yes, I know that this is walking and the Three Hunters were striding and running, but they also were stopping and sliding (down hillsides) and dodging tree branches and hopping logs amongst other verbs.
So for me, if a normal average healthy human could walk 30 miles in 8 hours, having done some walking previously, and seemingly could do this every day for three days, for exceptional persons the remaining 45 miles doesn't seem too much of a stretch.

[Sauron the White]

Alatar - the problem with your statement here

So for me, if a normal average healthy human could walk 30 miles in 8 hours, having done some walking previously, and seemingly could do this every day for three days, for exceptional persons the remaining 45 miles doesn't seem too much of a stretch.

is that you are taking the idea of a very vigorous walk which by itself would be taxing, and adding to that more than a half marathon each day. Again, for the untrained runner, just the half marathon alone - 15 miles - would be something that they could not run. The idea that an untrained person could do both is beyond reason.

But keep on trying. ;)

Again, if JRRT had stated that the three had walked ten hours each day, then it could be withing the realm of possibility. Even then, I cannot speak with confidence about the ability of the untrained person to walk 45 miles each day for three straight days. But it is more believable than the running and striding descriptions in LOTR.

But I am convinced that the good Professor knew next to nothing about long distance running and the toll it takes on the body. In his defense, the long distance running book that came complete with mass market books, magazines and research did not come until after his death and the LOTR had been out for some time. People in the 40's might have well believed that willpower and resolve were more important in long distance running than anything else. I imagine all the medical documentation about glycogen and muscle absorption rates and rates of burning it as fuel were not available to the Professor in the decade of the 40's. So its not his fault.

The first time I had read LOTR - in 1971 or 72 - I had not yet begun the hobby of running and that chapter went right by me without so much as a raised eyebrow. It was only later, after immersing myself into long distance running and the literature that I read that chapter again and it just stood out like a sore thumb.

from Quempel

There is no proof he did not train either, so I guess my assumption is right and proper.

You seem to be stuck on this whole Gimli being able to run issue. I have to wonder why, projecting emotions of some sort maybe?

Are you really saying that you cannot prove something that is a positive but I am in error because I cannot prove a negative? That defies all the normal rules of debate and logic.

If any author, JRRT included, introduces something that is far beyond the normal, it is his obligation to support it with some foundation to make it believable. That did not happen with this issue.

Again, the whole point of the Gimli running issue is to show that JRRT had some holes and errors in his tale and many here have no trouble rationalizing or accepting it. But heaven help the movies if they do the same.

As for projection of my own emotional issues.... I am clueless about what you may mean about that.

[Folwren]

You know, you've just about beaten this topic of Gimli being unable to run that far to death. You could try finding another hole of Tolkien's to bring up.

For instance, Frodo and Sam surviving the erruption of Mount Doom after the ring was destroyed...

-- Folwren

P.S. We book purists will never agree with you, you know. :)

[MatthewM]

You know, you've just about beaten this topic of Gimli being unable to run that far to death.

P.S. We book purists will never agree with you, you know. :)

Seriously. Give it up.

[alatar]

is that you are taking the idea of a very vigorous walk which by itself would be taxing, and adding to that more than a half marathon each day. Again, for the untrained runner, just the half marathon alone - 15 miles - would be something that they could not run. The idea that an untrained person could do both is beyond reason.

But keep on trying. ;)
So the article that I sited is wrong? What distance would you consider reasonable for a normal average human (after consulting their physician) to be able to travel in a day, and be able to get up and do the same thing the next day as well? Consider that the person has provisions (water and Snickers bars at the least), has adequate footwear - no new Nikes - and has walked everywhere his/her entire life, and so 6-10 miles is not an extreme distance for this person, as it may be for some of us today.

So far I've come up short, but I'm still searching for articles describing the average distance more primitive persons walk each day to get water, to gather food, etc. My guess is that these persons would be more apt to consider a lengthy journey than would be myself.

[Sauron the White]

Folwren and Matthew ... I was happy to give up on this a while ago... I thought we were through with it. But others keep posting their positions on it and I merely reply. Am I at fault for that?

We will agree to disagree then.

I wrote that on the 18th in the theread on Split Personality in the exact same discussion. It was my conclusion that everything that could be said already had been said. But then others keep posting their positions to me and I give them the courtesy of a reply.

I would very much like to move on to other things as long as others are willing to do the same. I will give Alatar the courtesy of an answer then hopefully, we can go on to new things like wings on balrogs.

Alatar -- your latest question

What distance would you consider reasonable for a normal average human (after consulting their physician) to be able to travel in a day, and be able to get up and do the same thing the next day as well?

What I know about is long distance running. I can talk about that with some level of confidence. I cannot discuss walking - sorry. But that is fine because WALKING is not what JRRT describes either in his tale so it is a point that does not have to be discussed. Again, walking at a normal pace DOES NOT prepare a person, or their muscles, for running or even striding. My best guess would be for the average person without training, the best they could travel in a single day would be perhaps 20 miles if they mixed running , striding and walking. After that, their glycogen and muscles would be depleted. If the dogs of hell were on their tail, perhaps they could do it again the next day. And if bones were strapped to their backs to entice the dogs, perhaps they could do it a third day.

Perhaps. That is my best guesstimate.

but this is from Answers.com in their article on GLYCOGEN

A well-nourished person will have enough glycogen in their muscle to enable them to exercise for 1-2 hours at approximately two-thirds of their maximum capacity for aerobic exercise.

Maybe I am being too generous in my estimate if this is near correct.

[Quempel]

And once again you assume that Gimli falls under the same standards as modern humans. One he was not human. Two he is not a modern human. Three your standards are real world standards and LoTR is a fantasy.


As for Frodo and Sam in the bowels of a volcano...neither Tolkien, Jackson nor Lucas got it right. Frodo and Sam would have suffocated from the fumes, ash and heat long before they could do what they needed to do. Firefighters die of carbon monoxide poisoning more often than burns.

[Sauron the White]

this has been discussed at great length in two threads - Denethors Plunge and Split Personality. Rather than rehash points which have already been answered, I simply refer you read those threads.

[Mister Underhill]

All this research into real-world capacities is a total red herring, IMO. If you start applying real world science to Middle-earth, you'll very soon find little you can believe in. I don't know why Gimli's run is the thing that trips you up, StW. I guess everyone has their own areas of expertise and pet hobby horses.

To me it seems that the real question here is internal consistency. Is Gimli's run believably consistent with what we know of Dwarves in Middle-earth? That's easy. Yes.

If anything, Gimli's run is far less believable in PJ's films because they're stuck with an actor who is obviously laboring under sixty or eighty pounds of costume and makeup, plus PJ uses the opportunity for comic relief -- having Gimli wheezing, always way behind the others, and making jokes about Dwarves being sprinters and the like.

In general, PJ's films are less internally consistent than Tolkien's books, and that's where a lot of book fans trip up.

[Sauron the White]

Now I have read the ultimate Purist rationalization for the books while at the same time putting down the films.

Gimli running 140 miles in three days in the books is fine. Of course and slap me silly for even thinking it is not. But Gimli running in the films - the hated Peter Jackson films - is far less believable.

There should be a prize for this type of thing.

[Sauron the White]

Mister Underhill ... I owe you more than that flip comment.

Where else in LOTR does it indicate that Dwarves have some extra-ordinary ability to run the equal of 1.6 marathons a day for three days in a row? You want to discuss internal consistency? That meets it head on.

If anything, the run is far more believable in the films. First, you are not looking at an actor laboring under make-up and costuming. You are looking at the dwarf that Tolkien described in the books. The physical depiction of was rather accurate. Second, in the books you have the very real problem of the miles or leagues being racked up each day in print. The entire distance is obvious and right in your face. No such thing in the film. Based on what you seen in the film - and only what you saw in the film - just how far did they run? You could never tell. You just knew that they ran a long way.

In fact I have just rewatched the portion of TTT - The Riders of Rohan. Very cleverly, PJ removes any mention of the distance covered and the entire conversations stays away from the topic. Instead they talk about trying to find Merry and Pippin. Eomer never has to utter his lines about their great feat being sung in halls.

Its far more believable in the film.

[Knight of Gondor]

I wonder...does anyone remember the march of Dain II Ironfoot to aid Thorin in the would-be siege of Erebor? As I recall, each dwarf bore a pack as heavy as himself, if not heavier. Has anyone gauged the required distance, given the heavy packs?

Again, no one is saying this is feasible in the "real world", I'm just bringing a similar journey of heavy-laden dwarves into the mix.

[Mister Underhill]

In Middle-earth, Dwarves are consistently portrayed as being a particularly hardy race, capable of unusual feats of endurance. Most of those references have already been cited. Dwarves do not equal real world humans. Nor do Elves. Nor do the descendants of Númenorean kings. It's not an error. In Middle-earth, it's just the way it is.

I appreciate that you posted a second time in a more reasonable tone. I have to tell you, though, that you'd be more convincing if you didn't seem to have the same knee-jerk loyalty to the movies as you sometimes claim others have for the books. I don't know why you take it so personally. If someone has a different opinion about the movies than you do, so what? You don't have to "convert" them to your way of thinking any more than you have to be converted to theirs. I haven't seen too many of these straw man Purists (with a capital P!) you've constructed around anyway.

I don't hate PJ or his movies. You can check my track record. I was really rooting for the movies to be great, while expecting and approving that there would be significant changes from the book. Does that make me a Purist? No, I guess what does is that the movies turned out to be, for me, enjoyable in many ways, but not great.

Denethor's plunge is a prime example -- it's not internally consistent for him to be able to run, engulfed in flame, the distance established in the movie.

Somewhere around here -- there seem to be about three different threads currently engaged in determining the running capacity of a partially-laden Dwarf -- I think it was littlemanpoet who said something to the effect that if he hadn't read the books, he wouldn't have had problems with the movies. That's not my experience. For me, the parts that are most frustrating are where the movies -- as movies, on their own terms -- fail logically or in terms of internal consistency.

[Sauron the White]

Since we are discussing those hardy Dwarves - a site called der-hobbitfilm.de has the following report up today

9/26/2007
Yesterday I got an interesting email, I'll just publish it here uncommented:
I have a friend who lives in New Zealand near Lake Te Anau and he said that a few people from New Line came to inspect the area and asked to go on their land. My friend asked why and they said they want to see if it would be a good place for the Lonely Mountain. They seemed really pleased with the location.

The site has been reporting - somewhat sparingly - on developments for a HOBBIT movie. This is their latest news.

[alatar]

I will give Alatar the courtesy of an answer then hopefully, we can go on to new things like wings on balrogs.
Thanks for playing along as I try to make my point (yes, I have one).

What I know about is long distance running. I can talk about that with some level of confidence. I cannot discuss walking - sorry. But that is fine because WALKING is not what JRRT describes either in his tale so it is a point that does not have to be discussed. Again, walking at a normal pace DOES NOT prepare a person, or their muscles, for running or even striding. My best guess would be for the average person without training, the best they could travel in a single day would be perhaps 20 miles if they mixed running , striding and walking. After that, their glycogen and muscles would be depleted. If the dogs of hell were on their tail, perhaps they could do it again the next day. And if bones were strapped to their backs to entice the dogs, perhaps they could do it a third day.
You are a long distance runner. I'd guess that the percentage (http://www.runningusa.org/statistics/trends-07.html#trends1) LotR Movie viewers/Book readers that are long distance runners is small (for USA yr 2006, I estimate significantly less than 7.9% of all persons). Most/some people, like me, have a cursory experience with running, especially long distances. Tolkien and PJ subconsciously or consciously know this. So if you, who I assume would provide a low estimate for the number of miles a person could travel in a part of a day, can get us to 60-70 miles (for three or three+ days), then it's not hard to see how others, with less experience, can (wrongfully; yes, I know) let slide the event that three heroes could travel twice that distance. As you yourself have stated, when you first read the running scene before you became more knowledgeable about foot travel, you skipped right by it. But now...

And I know that we're both riding this horse into the ground for other reasons. You want more honest criticism of the Books, and others want (and enjoy) to continue to criticize PJ's efforts. The points made are that Tolkien is superior, at least in the medium that he uses, in providing a more internally consistent 'secondary world,' whereas PJ does not as well in doing the same.

Maybe it would be helpful (and keep me from the ever-looming boredom) for you to note other examples of where Tolkien fails in creating a SW for you in the Books section of the forum. Start a thread there and I'll happily post.

Guess we could also start yet another PJ inconsistency thread, but my SbS posts cover much of that ground, and so maybe someone else would want to get that horse out of the stable.

[Sauron the White]

alatar... I wonder if it is not the nature of the beast that those who tend to really know the ins and outs of something are the least satisfied when someone outside of that area attempts to utilize it in a book or film?

Some of the people who know the books the best find the most fault with the film.
My experience with running and the whole Gimli thing. Perhaps this is normal and to be expected to a degree.

Before I retired after 33 years of teaching, I was seriously into local union politics. We went on strike a couple of times and there were two newspapers in town - one pro union and the other anti-union. It did not matter that we were feeding both papers most of their information because almost always the stories they ran were either a) filled with errors of fact, b) stories which completely missed the serious points, or c) made up of half-truths and partial errors. And this was from writers and a paper I respected and looked to as my normal daily news source. It taught me a lesson about such things.

Probably if you asked a professional football player about football movies they would have a laundry list of complaints. I imagine lawyers could talk your ear off about errors made everyday on shows like Law & Order and courtroom dramas. I rarely saw a movie about education get the life of a teacher right. Even in the ones that were critically praised.

So maybe this should running debate just die from exhaustion and glycogen depletion of its own.

[alatar]

alatar... I wonder if it is not the nature of the beast that those who tend to really know the ins and outs of something are the least satisfied when someone outside of that area attempts to utilize it in a book or film?
And maybe that's why some of those here, when you say that the 'Purists' here at the Downs cannot believe Tolkien ever made an error, find some of your posts 'peevish,' if I use that word correctly. ;)

Anyway, while reading HoME last night (again) I saw that in one of the original versions of RotK, Denethor was to survive the Battle of the Pellenor.

Was Denethor so crazed that he was absolutely sure that his last leap would destroy him utterly, as why else immolate himself if not to avoid capture and humiliation for himself and his subsequent corpse? What if he'd been caught by a Nazgul and dunked in the Anduin, then to be brought before the Eye in Barad Dur, even if semi-charred? Quite a risk.

And another thought: In many, if not all space movies, there's always sound in space, which is physically impossible due to lack of a medium in which the sound can carry. Some persons note this (usually science nuts with little else to do), and yet is has become pretty much part of the 'language' of space movies. To have no sound when something explodes may leave the audience dumbfounded.

Like dancing around in lava fields in movies, many people just accept this physical unreality as it makes sense to us ground/earth-dwelling persons that live in air. Like in the Star Wars movies. Yet, with the exception of a few science nuts, you won't hear much about this in the reviews of these movies (which have no associated canon - at least the first flick didn't). Still, people find flaws within the movies due to the inconsistencies presented by George Lucas.

And if he can get it wrong (internally inconsistent), so can PJ. It's not the sounds in space, it's Jar-Jar Binks.

[Nazgûl-king]

I am kinda currious how he got that far that fast, but it is a pretty cool looking scene.

[Diane C]

I know I'm raking up an old thread here, but this particular scene has always bothered me. In fact the whole funeral pyre thing was just too clumsy & ill conceived in my eyes, right the from the moment Gandalf enters on Shadowfax.

He rides up and manages to knock Denathor flying off his pyre, but then rather than worrying about Faramir, who is also on the bonfire and unconscious Gandalf continues to faff about with Denathor, leaving it to Merry do somehow jump on the stack and push Faramir's dead weight from the burning pile. And then Shadowfax rears up and knocks Denathor back onto the fire, who then legs it all the way down the Silent Street and off!

I just found the entire scene contrived and not at all believable, sorry

[Blokdog]

I think we should just look at an ordinary armour: first, a shirt is worn. above this, a vest, and only then comes the mail. over that the robe and other things... so, if the flames from the pyre burned his robe, It may have taken at least a few minutes to heaten the inside of the armour, although the question what exactly burned after the robe was consumed remains. as you see, with tea it's the same: if the steel is hot, you take it using some other material.

[thewichtking]

He ran from the fifth level.....all the way up to the seventh level....on fire

what the............?


HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA !HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!

then another 1/4 of a mile to the end of the thing to jump off:rolleyes:. good point.

[narfforc]

Poor old Denethor, he's just found out that he is in a film called The Return of the King. With this Stranger of the North on the throne, there's no need for a Steward, so the film script calls for him to be fired.

[MaultheStoor]

I personally think he was wearing asbestos underwear and had began to grow wonky in the head from mesothelioma (but that's just me). ;)

[LadyBrooke]

The thing is there are other things resulting from the fire that would have killed Denethor even it the armour and stuff didn’t burn all the way to his skin in the time to run all that way. Today was Career Day at my school, and one of the guys was the a County Prosecutor. I want to be a lawyer, so I found his lecture fascinating (so much that I was actually glad I couldn’t eat lunch at school so I could go listen to him speak again).

The relevant thing to this discussion that he mentioned is that often when he investigates arson murders (and I’m assuming this would apply to guys who got lit on fire) is that often it isn’t the burns or fire itself that kills a person, but the secondary results of fire. The ones that I think would have been the problem would be smoke inhalation and heated air.

If you’re running you need more air, so Denethor would have been consuming a lot of smoke and heated air. While I’m sure we all know what the effects of smoke inhalation are, the thing that would be worse for Denethor would be the heated air. Fire quickly heats up the surrounding air - it only takes seconds - and when you inhale hot air it burns the insides of your throat and lungs along with the air passages. You slowly suffocate to death when you’re just breathing shallowing. What would the outcome be if you’re running while inhaling smoke into scorched lungs while suffering burns - the guy wouldn’t have made it a quarter mile.

And yes, this is probably the posting equivalent of beating a dead horse.;)

[Galadriel]

If Boromir can kill 10 orcs with 3 arrows stuck in his chest, then why cant Denethor run a half mile completely engulfed in flames?

Possibly because the flames burned his eyes and roasted his legs? :p

[Sarumian]

And anyway, Denthor survived the fall. It obviously gave him a Russian accent, put about 4 stones on him and transported him to the Russian Embassy to have one of his fingers cut off by a CTU agent. (If you can believe he run that long from Rath Dinen then you can believe that!)

Moreover, he became a prominent Russian rock-musician... :smokin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SBkx-sn9i8&feature=related

The song is "Mama, I cant drink any more". :)