Dueling Wizards Werewolf II discussion thread

[Nogrod]

It's coming!

The game starts at June 1st with a Night-phase!

I open this thread now for all those interested to join in the discussion of the DW II.

The game will not start before the 25th of May - and it will most likely take a few days from that to start in the end even if we have all the players we need.

(I will be away from home between May the 17th to 25th - I may have internet access but that will be random and limited in time during that period)

I'll post the preliminary rules post in a few days but all those already familiar with the game and the discussions - and all those not familiar as well - can join the discussion of the finer details as well as general principles.

The earlier game suggestion thread posted by lmp the game inventer after the first game was played is to be found from here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12887). The current game's discussion starts on page 2 from post #79. Although I now hope all that discussion could be transferred here into the one and same place.

I'll post a preliminary player-list this far asap. Those who have not made any comments after the earlier burst of discussion on this matter please comfirm your participation and join the discussion - or in the sad case tell me if you're not able to join.



I'm taking in "applications" to take the role of a wizard via PM.

DO NOT SAY IT ALOUD HERE OR ELSEWHERE THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO BE A WIZARD!!!

No application as such is needed but a declaration of your willingess. And if you have a preference over which one you would like to be it will be taken into consideration.


I might do with two sub-mods (an evil and a good one) but those roles might not be necessary - depending on when the game starts. But if someone would wish to have that kind of task please let me know as well. That you can do in this thread as well.

[Gwathagor]

Hey, I absolutely want to play.


EDIT: 700th Post

[Nogrod]

The possible players so far - those who have told me they are in or shown an interest lately or in the earlier discussion (sorry if I missed someone - just let me know you're in!).

Please let me know your current situation if the game starts in the end of May / early June - and invite your friends as well. A good game of Dueling Wizards would take something like a village of twenty something.

I'll be putting a + before every player who has comfirmed her/his participation and I will start adding questionmarks if needs be - and will gladly add names to the list. :)


+ A Little Green, a fortune-teller - folklorist - herb-grower - unofficial therapist, advisor and midwife, most presumably a witch, the gammer (the eccentric mother of Lommy & Mac)
+ Shastanis Althreduin, astrologer/fortune teller, gaffer (Greenie's husband, father of Lommy & Mac)

+ Thinlómien, a bird tamer, adult (married to Nilp, Macalaure's sister)
+ Nilpaurion Felagund, a house-bound sandwich-maker, adult (married to Lommy)
+ Kath, 20 (their daughter, Brinn's life partner)
+ Satansaloser 2005, Lommy's assistant, 17 (their daughter)
+ Eönwë (their son)

+ Macalaure, apple farmer, adult (married to Rikae, Lommy's brother)
+ Rikae, a lumberjack, adult (married to Macalaure, Roa's sister)
+ the phantom, sheep herder with Legate, 21 (their adopted son, Di's brother)
+ Diamond 18, dissolute, 11 (phantom's pre-teen littlesister)

+ Cailín, guinea pig breeder, adult (Nilp's sister)
(Eomer of the Rohirrim, Cailín's husband, Lhuna's father)
+ Lhunardawen, healer's apprentice, 20 (Cailín's daughter, good twin of Durelin)
+ Durelin, poisoner 20 (Lhuna's evil twin, daughter of Cailín)


+ Volo, the guy who knows everything about staying alive, the gaffer (Father of Nogrod, morm, Nerwen and Lalaith)

(Nogrod, the judge, Roa's husband, father of Legate, Brinn and Kit)
+ Roa_Aoife, school teacher, adult (mother of Legate, Brinn and Kit, wife of Nogrod, sister of Rikae)
+ Brinniel, Greenie's apprentice, 21 (Legate's sister and Kitanna's twin sister, Kath's life partner)
+ Kitanna, a tavern wench 21 (Legate's sister and Brinn's twin sister)
+ Legate of Amon Lanc, sheep herder with tp, 19 (brother of Brinn & Kit, Sally's boyfriend, Agan's ex-bf)

+ Nerwen, the healer, adult (sister of Lalaith, Volo's daughter)

+ Lalaith, chocolate maker, adult (sister of Nerwen, mother of Aganzir, Volo's daughter)
+ Aganzir, the little match girl, 15 (Lalaith's daughter, dates McCaber)
+ The Ka, a dog whipper (a fatherless and ageless little child of Lalaith)

+ Mormegil, adult (son of Volo, husband of Celuien, father of Gwath and McCaber)
+ Celuien, adult (wife of morm, mother of Gwath and McCaber)
+ Gwathagor, a highwayman, 20 (McCaber's big brother)
+ McCaber, a henchman, 18 (Gwath's little brother, dates Aganzir)


Azaelia of Willowbottom?


Everyone is welcome! The more the better as one of the points of this game is to crerate a village-like feeling where not everyone knows what is going on... :D

EDIT: The divisions do not represent any caste-system but merely the ones with + are those confirmed, the others are those who have shown their interest just in a short while.

[Thinlómien]

What an impressive list. :D I'm so excited. :D

[Gwathagor]

It has the makings of a truly epic game.

[Nogrod]

Like in Dueling Wizards I you all are encouraged to make families yourselves!

Last time that thing worked just fantastically as it eased Day1 and in a way Day2 but still was left to its own in the end. And how much fun it offered to the players...

So just propose marriages or negotiate for sister-/brotherhood or deal / suggest to be a father / mother, a children or an aunt or an uncle of someone... or whatever you come by!

The less we have "unconnected" persons the better. Just brave yourselves to it! :)

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

++Nilpaurion Felagund

You have my suicidal tendencies.

Thinlómien, will you marry me? :p

[Nerwen]

++Nerwen

...Er, meaning I'm in, not out.

[satansaloser2005]

Sorry, felt the need to post. Noggie, stop making the game sound so good! I mean, the description, the PM you sent me earlier, and now the player list? I'm bloody salivating to play! I swear to you, if there's any way I can get some internet over the summer I'm playing. And if that happens, you all will be the first to know. *hangs head in internet-less shame*

[Brinniel]

++Brinniel

Hurray! Now that I'm home and with nothing interesting going on in my life, I'm ready for another WW game to entertain me. :)

[Lhunardawen]

++Nilpaurion Felagund

You have my suicidal tendencies.

Thinlómien, will you marry me? :p
The guy's suicidal indeed. Nogrod, I swear I will not stop you if you want to chase him with a rifle or whatever it is dads do in situations like this.

[A Little Green]

Count me in. I can't miss this one. :p

[Thinlómien]

Nogrod, I swear I will not stop you if you want to chase him with a rifle or whatever it is dads do in situations like this.But I will. :p Yes, I'll marry you Nilp. Now we just need a kid or two. (And no, you're not asked anything. ;)) So anyone planning to play a child in this game, we'll be happy to adopt you. And also, if there's someone who is planning to play a gammer or a gaffer, feel free to adopt me (and in that case, take the rifle-chasing responsibility from Nogrod...). Also, I don't mind having siblings, or cousins, or any other kind of relatives.

sally - I hope you'll find a way to participate in this game, even if it requires some dramatic means like robbing a bank or something... ;)

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I'd love to play! I have a prior commitment on the 27th, and I'll have to see how things work out with my summer job, so keep me on the list, with a question mark. I need to see how things turn out once I get home from school.

This game is going to be SO much fun, and I'm really looking forward to it!

[satansaloser2005]

But I will. :p Yes, I'll marry you Nilp. Now we just need a kid or two. (And no, you're not asked anything. ;)) So anyone planning to play a child in this game, we'll be happy to adopt you. And also, if there's someone who is planning to play a gammer or a gaffer, feel free to adopt me (and in that case, take the rifle-chasing responsibility from Nogrod...). Also, I don't mind having siblings, or cousins, or any other kind of relatives.

sally - I hope you'll find a way to participate in this game, even if it requires some dramatic means like robbing a bank or something... ;)




Don't give me any ideas love....


Actually....Noggie, even the slightest idea when the DL would be for this?

[Kitanna]

I am in or at least that is my hope. School is over and though I am starting a new job I can dedicate a decent amount of time to a WW game. However depending on when days begin and end I may be absent at deadlines.

[McCaber]

++McCaber

I've heard the stories about the last one, and I'm excited about the sequel. Not least because of the star-studded cast.

[Cailín]

*dramatically emerges from the shadows*

... I so want in. Oh, can I? Please? Please?

[Lalaith]

Goodness, this is a good guest-list. All we need is Ang and spawn to emerge from the shadows, and I'd be happy. Unfortunately, there's no way I can be near the internet from May 24 until June 1st. So if the game starts before then, you'll have to count me out.

[Volo]

You have my suicidal tendencies:

I'm going to be Aganzir's pet as I guess it's ok with her. What exactly being her pet is still debatable.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Remember Loki? :D

[Aganzir]

I'm going to be Aganzir's pet as I guess it's ok with her. What exactly being her pet is still debatable.
You can be a dog or a cat if you wish - I'll decide which one I want after deciding what kind of a character I will have.

[Volo]

You can be a dog or a cat if you wish - I'll decide which one I want after deciding what kind of a character I will have.
I decided that she won't decide. I'll be a dog that thinks he's a cat, that fears he's a mouse, and wishes he was a bat. If that doesn't suit Aganzir's role I'm sure there's someone else who wants me as his/her pet. :p If not, I'm a stray dog with several deceases, including a plague, or two.

[Macalaure]

Rikae and I confirm our participation. We can join in any case, but it would be more comfortable if it started after June 2nd.

Of course we're going to be a couple in this game. Does anybody desire to be adopted? :D

[Kath]

++KATH

I'm aware I'm still in the other game at the moment, but I'm in for this! Did disastrously last time so I'd like another go at it!

If anyone would like to be in a family with me just give me a yell. I'm open to offers. :p

[Nogrod]

This is looking good indeed!

I'm trying to draft the first version of the rules tomorrow. They will be subject to change as the discussion about them will then show which things are to be changed in the end.

Also it seems that a couple of players would be more readily able to play after June takes over. To me it would be convenient as I come back home on May 25th and I will have a really busy week after that so starting the game with a Night-phase on May 30th or 31st would be very good for me.

If there are more people who'd need to start the game earlier than that we can do it as well. So waiting for your comments...


The deadline could be anything if the game starts on the May 30th or 31st. I'm starting my summer vacation then and all the times are just fine.

A kind of natural deadline to me - and to the European players would be something like 7-11PM GMT. How about you Americans? Any suggestions? The times I would like to take off from the list of possible deadlines would be 11PM GMT to 8AM GMT. I'd like to sleep some of that period...

So anything between 8AM GMT - 11 PM GMT will work.


I'll be structuring the participators-list according to their relations little by little. Please keep on coming forwads with the suggestions of any affairs or relations with each other. The more entangled into the families we get this thing to be the better.

PS. If you wish to give a description of your character or her/his trade please let me know so that I can add it to the list & take it into consideration when writing narratives...

[the phantom]

Well, of course I'd like the cutoff to be around 5 or 6 AM GMT (12 or 1 AM my time), but seeing as that probably won't work for many (including Sir Nog) I will cast a vote for the latest time offered up- 11 PM GMT.

1) Mac and Rikae, may I be your son?

2) Anyone want to be my brother or sister?

3) Hmmm... marriage is a big step. I think I'd prefer to be engaged first, and see how that goes. Would anyone like to be a fiance rather than a wife?

[Lhunardawen]

*dramatically emerges from the shadows*

... I so want in. Oh, can I? Please? Please?
Argh. Okay, that does it. Screw academics.

++LHUNARDAWEN

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Okay, Lommy dear, so we be the Wolfingtons. The only thing we need now is a rival family . . . And children, of course. Kath W., will you be my child again (albeit with a different Finn for a mother. :D )

Oh, and Ms. Cailìn, will you be my sister? :)

[satansaloser2005]

Tentatively depending on the DL (as I am a pesky American and I work most days) and other factors, I'm in, so please put me down with an outrageously large question mark. I just can't STAND the thought of not being in on this. So, if I do join the game....

Lommie, are you my mummy? And if not, will you be?

[Cailín]

Oh, and Ms. Cailìn, will you be my sister? :)

Gladly.

Does anyone else want to be related to me? Cleverly marry into Nilp's already extended family, for example? Some illegimate child?

---

Before I forget... My participation will unfortunately lead to the fact that my dearest love, that champion of wolvish charm, Eomer of the Rohirrim will be unable to join this game (and all innocent little children will say Thanks and sleep peacefully). Do not doubt, however, that he will be watching out for you all.

[Lalaith]

If I play, can I be the family black sheep? Baaa.

[Thinlómien]

Lommie, are you my mummy? And if not, will you be?Of course, dear - unless you're fiercely against having Kath as you sister (in case she agrees to Nilp's suggestion).

Mac and Rikae, would one of you like you be my sibling? (That would make tp my nephew, though... :eek: )

Nilp - okay, we're the Wolfingtons. Do we have a special family profession? Or do we both just have our own occupations? Or am I just a housewife? Or are you just a house-husband? :p

If I play, can I be the family black sheep? Baaa.Which family? :Merisu:


PS. I'll be looking forward to the actual rule discussion... I'm sure I'll have some complaints... *innocent smiley*

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

The matriarch knows best. :p

We do have pet wolves at home, but that's the extent of our eccentricities.

[Kath]

Haha Lommy I can't believe I'll be your daughter! But go on then. :D Good to have me ol' dad back and having sally for a sister ought to be fun!

[Nogrod]

I've updated the families so far. Please check that I have made no mistakes.

All the others feel free to join the families or, what would be even better, to create your own. Now it seems we have two families. Third and fourth would be nice.

As someone said. This family-forming period is just soo much fun! :D

I'm trying to make a post later today on the subject of basic rules...

[Aganzir]

Lalaith, if you play, could you please be my mummy? I would love to be the daughter of the family black sheep. :Merisu:

Volo, a crazy pet doesn't suit my role, what ever it will be.

I haven't quite decided what I'd like to play yet, but I could help to form the third family, if someone wants to be my spouse. Children possible but not necessary.

[Lalaith]

Aganzir, of course I will parent you. Poor little lamb, born under a cloud. I was wild as a girl, I ran away, possibly with some travelling players, possibly under my own steam...but returned one day with a child in tow, and no explanations or ancedents are forthcoming.

As for which family...who is prepared to accept this blot on their escutcheon?

[Nerwen]

How would you like me to be your sister, then?

[Lalaith]

That's mighty broad-minded of you, Nerwen.

[satansaloser2005]

Haha Lommy I can't believe I'll be your daughter! But go on then. :D Good to have me ol' dad back and having sally for a sister ought to be fun!



Oooo, I get a sister to fight....erm, I mean play with! :p

[Macalaure]

Mac and Rikae, may I be your son?

Consider yourself adopted, my lad.

Mac and Rikae, would one of you like you be my sibling?

Hey! I always wanted a little sister. :)

[Nogrod]

Let's start with the basics of the game. It's good to remind everyone of them as just a few of us were in the first DW game and not all have read the lengthy discussions about the rules that preceded and followed the first DW-game.

The village must be huge. And it looks good now. :)

There are two wizards, a good wizard (GW) and an evil wizard (EW). They lead their respective teams. The wizards can't be lynched. They can only be killed by the other wizard in a duel which will end in both of them dying and the game turning into a normal ww-game from that on. We will probably enforce a ruling that no wizard-duel can take place before Day3 or something.

The wizards scry minions during the Night, their minions being wolves and gifteds. One thing that needs to be decided is whether there is a limit to the number of minions each wizard may have. In the first game there was no limit to the number of wolves the EW could scry but there was a limit of three gifteds for the GW - also the EW scried three wolves on Night1 and the GW only one gifted. This is slightly balanced by the fact that when the EW scries a gifted that person only changes to an ordo but when the GW scries a wolf that person turns ordo as well. So scrying each other's minions makes EW's minions to switch sides whereas GW's minions stay on the good side.

But many people thought there was a slight inbalance in there and that should be considered. One idea is to give the GW also three minions on Night1. Another possibility is to limit the number of minions in a general way, like if 1/4 of the villagers are already wolves the EW can not summon any more or if 1/5 of the village are gifteds the GW can't turn new people into gifteds... or something along those lines.

The minions can suggest and argue their points (whom to kill, whom to dream or protect etc.) to their wizard during the Night but the wizard has the power to overrule her minions ideas. Also the wizard should feel free to consider herself what to tell her minions. She can stay hidden from them, she can decide whether to let her minions know the identities of each other or not, she can lie to them, she can mislead them or tell them the truth.

The ordos just try to do their best to catch the wolves like in any game - and have fun doing it!

The innocents win when the EW is dead and there are no werewolves left. The evil side wins when the number of innocents is same or less than the number of wolves.

More later...

PS. the families are updated once again.

[Diamond18]

2) Anyone want to be my brother or sister?


I'll be your sister.

I might have to live out in the shed in secret though if your adoptive parents only wanted one child. You know, a son to do the chores.

[Thinlómien]

Diamond joined too! Yay! :D

Hey! I always wanted a little sister. Great. :D

You know, everybody, this is looking awesome. This game just can't be bad.

Concerning the rules, then. I'm just checking, but isn't it so that when the wizards die, the game setting is fixed and the wolves will be told one another's identities and it becomes a regular werewolf game?

What happens if one wizard scries the another? Is it so that in that case she learns his identity?

And if they scry the same person, s/he dies. Right?

Also, I think there was two wolf kills per Night in the beginning of the last game. Will it be so again? If yes, how long will it last?

When the GW (or EW, for that matter) has reached their minion quota, how will their scryings affect things? In no way, except that they can find the other wizard? If we give the EW no limit in how many wolves he can have, I suggest that when the GW has reached the gifted limit, her scryings may count as ranger protections.

What happens if the wolves attack a wizard during the Night? No kill? Will the wolves or the EW know that they targeted the GW (as they probably won't target the EW if he's the one to have the last word on the kill)? What if the hunter decides to take down a wizard? Nothing? But then everybody will know that the hunter targeted a wizard... If the hunter targets the EW could the GW be told about this, thus compensating for the lack of hunter-kill? Or will wolves and/or hunters get a second chance if the one they want to kill is unkillable?

Everybody new to the DW, feel free to ask me to elaborate, I'm not sure I explained it newcomer-friendly. Also, pester Noggie with questions: if I didn't know anything about DW, his explanation might leave me uninformed about quite a lot of facts... ;)

[Nogrod]

Great to see you Diamond! I've added you to the list and let's hear what Rikae and Mac will think about you joining the family or whether you should stay as an "outsider" what comes to the families... :)

And good to see someone making the tough questions! *cheers Lommy*

isn't it so that when the wizards die, the game setting is fixed and the wolves will be told one another's identities and it becomes a regular werewolf game?Exactly.

What happens if one wizard scries the another? Is it so that in that case she learns his identity?Yes. And basically either wizard can decide when to challenge the other one into a duel after she has learned the identity of the other one. That duel will take place only during a Day and will end up in both of the wizards dying.

And if they scry the same person, s/he dies. Right?After all those lengthy discussions I'd be inclined to say yes. That's the simplest solution. Too much magic on one person in one Night... There will be a special arrangement on Night1 though when both wizards will produce a list of six to the mod(s) from which the minions will be dealt to them randomly (looking that neither wizard gets to know the identity of the other one) and from which the GW can then deal the gifts according to her will.

Also, I think there was two wolf kills per Night in the beginning of the last game. Will it be so again? If yes, how long will it last?Now you made a tough one. I had thought of this before but I don't know yet. There is a sense why a larger wolf-party should have more kills but where to set the limit? I'd say three wolves will not have more than one kill but maybe four could - or am I just being too careful? In the end the village will have 20+ players so we need to get people killed as well - as nasty as that is for anyone getting killed too early.

Your two last questions are too hard - and they have been discussed extensively with multiple argued positions this far - so let me gather my thoughts and answer them in preliminary way in a moment... :rolleyes:

And throw in your two cents everyone!

[Thinlómien]

There is a sense why a larger wolf-party should have more kills but where to set the limit? I'd say three wolves will not have more than one kill but maybe four could - or am I just being too careful? In the end the village will have 20+ players so we need to get people killed as well - as nasty as that is for anyone getting killed too early.I think it's not about the amount of wolves, but rather about the amount of villagers in total. The game will last for ages (it's going to be a long game in any case, I know) if we have 25 or more players and only one kill per Night. Maybe something like the wolves have two kills until the village reaches a certain size? What is "certain size", that can be debated. 18 villagers? 16? 15? More? Less? Personally, I think 15 or 16 would be good as that would be the size of normal big-ish village.

[Thinlómien]

In the previous game, there was a limit that the GW could only name one seer, one ranger and one hunter. Will there be such a limit again? I know you haven't decided how many gifteds there can be in total, but will there be some sort of ratios, like one third of them should be of each kind or will you let the GW decide what kind of giteds she wants? Or will you let her decide freely, but set some limits, like "there must be one gifted of each kind all the time, the rest can be whatever" or "there can only be two seers at most at a time"?

[Nogrod]

I think it's not about the amount of wolves, but rather about the amount of villagers in total.The game will last for ages (it's going to be a long game in any case, I know) if we have 25 or more players and only one kill per Night,Game-mechanicswise that's exactly the point. But thinking about the setting as a story it would be more credible to tie that number of kills to the number of wolves and not to the number of villagers.

I think we have two possibilities.

Either we say that when there are three wolves or more there will be two kills / Night (and maybe when there are five wolves then three kills?).

Or either we say that if there are more than three wolves they gain two kills / Night (and with six three?).

It's an important decision as it will decide how many kills the wolves can make in the beginning of the game.

I need to go back and check the settings in the original game to consult them.

But now there will be Finland - USA in the ice hockey world championships and I will watch the game first... ;)

EDIT: tried to make myself more clear with underlining & bolding

[Lalaith]

I think a good way of redressing the balance might be to allow the GW to 'regift' each role once. (I mean if the original holder is killed)
What do you reckon?
Oh and if The Ka is still playing I'd love her to join my family in honour of our mutual love of a certain band...

[Kath]

Um, Nog, aren't your two possibilities the same? Or are you saying that either a) two kills if there are three wolves, or b) two kills if there are more than three wolves?

[A Little Green]

We do have pet wolves at home, but that's the extent of our eccentricities. Unless you'd like an eccentric old mother-in-law... I was thinking I'd like to play a scary old lady who grows herbs and practices fortune-telling and some kind of healing, the sort that everyone visits every now and then though no one admits doing it... :p I thought I could be Mac and Lommy's mother if you want one. (That would make me also a grandmother for Sally, Kath, the phantom and Diamond and a lovely mother-in-law for nilp and Rikae..)

If anyone wants to be my apprentice (that would be way cool), spouse, sibling or yet another child, that would be nice as well. :D

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Once again: Oh-my-who-is-supposed-to-read-this? (Well it's a thread started by Nogrod, after all ;) )

I don't know yet about playing, it will be running right during my exam terms as it seems. Although... ;) *ahem* Well there's another thing which could decide it better: I am going to be away on the last week in June... will the game continue on that, Nog? What do you think?

[A Little Green]

The wizards can't be lynched. So if a wizard is voted out, it means that s/he is revealed because s/he isn't lynched regardless of the amount of votes s/he receives?

[Thinlómien]

I think a good way of redressing the balance might be to allow the GW to 'regift' each role once. (I mean if the original holder is killed)
What do you reckon?I think that in the last game the GW's picks were only limited so that he could have only one seer, one ranger and one hunter at a time. I think it's a better way of limiting the gifteds than banning renamings in case the original gifted dies or becomes ungifted.

I don't know yet about playing, it will be running right during my exam terms as it seems. Although... *ahem* Well there's another thing which could decide it better: I am going to be away on the last week in June... will the game continue on that, Nog? What do you think?I'm not Nogrod, but I can say this: last time the game lasted for two weeks, but there were rather many people alive when it ended. But I don't think it should last more than three weeks (?) and one must be lucky to survive to the end...

And speaking of the last game, here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12835)'s the link if someone is interested to have a look.

I thought I could be Mac and Lommy's mother if you want one.And Kath said it is weird I'm her mum... :rolleyes: :D But yes, Greenie dear, that'd be great if you ask me.

And lastly, I didn't understand Nogrod's wolf-kill possibilities either. I think my suggestion would make more sense. ;) I'm sure you'll be able to make it fit the story in some way...

[Nogrod]

So if a wizard is voted out, it means that s/he is revealed because s/he isn't lynched regardless of the amount of votes s/he receives?Yes indeed.

I am going to be away on the last week in June... will the game continue on that, Nog?The last game took exactly two weeks. So if we start at the last days of May / first days of June you should have no problem Legate.

Um, Nog, aren't your two possibilities the same? Or are you saying that either a) two kills if there are three wolves, or b) two kills if there are more than three wolves?That's the difference I'm after and what I meant... Sorry if I didn't make myself clear enough on that. So should the wolves have two kills from the beginning (the rule being "if there are three wolves then two kills") or whether there would need to be more than three to give the wolves the second kill?

think a good way of redressing the balance might be to allow the GW to 'regift' each role once. (I mean if the original holder is killed)Yes. "Regifting" will be on in this game for the GW. But the question remains whether there shoould be limits to scrying in the first place...

[Brinniel]

Dearest Kath,
Will you be my life partner? :D

And would anyone like a twin sister? I've always wanted a twin...

About deadlines: I vote for the latest possible (11pm).

Anyways, I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions...but my brain needs a little while to absorb the rules first... :rolleyes:

EDIT: Oh and Greenie, I'll be your apprentice. :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The last game took exactly two weeks. So if we start at the last days of May / first days of June you should have no problem Legate.

If by "no problem" you mean at least two big exams during that time, then yes :) However a game like this is something that doesn't happen everyday, that much is clear. *sigh* I don't know. I must think of pros and cons, and if it's possible at all...

[Cailín]

Diamond! I am so pleased you're joining. :)

I have been looking at the old thread again - a good read. I can recommend it to all. It made me quite nostalgic, especially when I realised Nogrod was still a WW newbie back then (but a strong player, no doubt). Ah, times change. :D

I am still interested in adopting a child. I'm afraid your father would be away overseas to conquer distant lands, but there'd still be cookies.

[Nogrod]

Should I count you in Legate? :)

About the number of kills of the wolves. What is it you don't see - or what is it I say in such a muddled way that no one understands?

The question is whether three wolves can make two kills or do we need a fourth for them to make two kills. That has a big implication as if no wolf is killed on Day1 the wolves can start with two kills in the beginning of the game (Night2) and if no wolf is gotten the next Day they will have at least two Nights more of two kills per Night - if three wolves are enough for two kills per Night.

If we say three wolves are not enough for there being two nightly kills the wolves / EW actually need to play well to earn the second kill. On the other occasion they will get two kills for granted form the beginning unless they lose one of them on Day1.

[Nogrod]

It made me quite nostalgic, especially when I realised Nogrod was still a WW newbie back then (but a strong player, no doubt). Ah, times change. :DThey do indeed! I'm not sure if I'd need to be ashamed of that game myself or not... Probably I should. :D

I try to hang on with these relationships... Hopefully I can produce you a map / tree of them after all is settled. Or would Hookbill wish to produce one this time as well? :)

[satansaloser2005]

Whoa buddy. I'm confused. I need to look back at everything with more than just a scanning eye.

Oh, and Noggie, I'm still in with a question mark dearie. Need to finalize my summer work schedule before I can give you an absolute "YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!".

[Nogrod]

About the dealine...

The "latest possible" have been voiced a few times - being 11PM GMT. That is 2AM my time but as I am on vacation by then (from May 31st) I can make it that. We're kind of late nigth stalkers here anyway... :)

[Kath]

Dearest Kath,
Will you be my life partner?
Hah! Go on then Brinn. :D This family is growing well!

[Lalaith]

I think that in the last game the GW's picks were only limited so that he could have only one seer, one ranger and one hunter at a time. I think it's a better way of limiting the gifteds than banning renamings in case the original gifted dies or becomes ungifted

Yes, I think you're right. I can't remember now, but I'll go back and check.
All I really remember from last time was being in the car on the way down to France, trying to log on to the site from my phone, trying to save myself on that last day. Unsuccessfully.
"Bowl of petunias". Diamond will know what I mean.

[Macalaure]

I might have to live out in the shed in secret though if your adoptive parents only wanted one child. You know, a son to do the chores.

Only wanted one child? You should know us better. :p

All adoptive children are gladly accepted. Where there's room for one, there's room for... umm... more than one. Don't worry about sleeping in the shed - now that we have a son to do the chores, we can have a daughter to treat as Little Miss Princess. ;)

There will be a special arrangement on Night1 though when both wizards will produce a list of six to the mod(s) from which the minions will be dealt to them randomly (looking that neither wizard gets to know the identity of the other one) and from which the GW can then deal the gifts according to her will.

I don't mean to be nitpicky, but if both wizards get three minions on Night1, then, with a list size of 6, there could be a choice dilemma in the unlikely case that both wizards give five identical names plus the respective enemy wizard. Make it 7.

In the previous game, there was a limit that the GW could only name one seer, one ranger and one hunter. Will there be such a limit again? I know you haven't decided how many gifteds there can be in total, but will there be some sort of ratios, like one third of them should be of each kind or will you let the GW decide what kind of giteds she wants? Or will you let her decide freely, but set some limits, like "there must be one gifted of each kind all the time, the rest can be whatever" or "there can only be two seers at most at a time"?

I prefer to have no more than the regular trio would - plus regifting, of course.

A random suggestion about what to do when the Good Wizard would be able to create additional gifteds: what about not turning that additional person into a permanent gifted, but just give the Wizard the possibility to communicate with that individual for that one night? This won't make the gifteds too strong, but will still provide them with an advantage.

I thought I could be Mac and Lommy's mother if you want one.

Great! :)

[satansaloser2005]

Hmmmm....so I have a mum, a dad, a lovely sister, now all I need is a romantic interest.

:Merisu:Legate, if you decide to join, would you like to be my boyfriend? I'm not sure I'm ready to be married/engaged yet, so I'll do that if it's all right with you. Besides, that way if I sadly have to pull out I won't be jilting any other young gentleman who has signed up for certain. Is this an acceptable....proposal? :Merisu:

[Kitanna]

And would anyone like a twin sister? I've always wanted a twin...


Brinn, if you'll take me I've always wanted a twin too.

[Diamond18]

Only wanted one child? You should know us better. :p

All adoptive children are gladly accepted. Where there's room for one, there's room for... umm... more than one. Don't worry about sleeping in the shed - now that we have a son to do the chores, we can have a daughter to treat as Little Miss Princess. ;)

Ah, the family dynamic is already forming. :D

[McCaber]

I guess I can join this family system. Anyone want the McCobbler on their hands?

I am still interested in adopting a child. I'm afraid your father would be away overseas to conquer distant lands, but there'd still be cookies.
This actually sounds like a tempting offer, if only because of the promise of cookies.

[Gwathagor]

I guess I can join this family system. Anyone want the McCobbler on their hands?

Dude, McCaber...let's be bros. :cool:

[McCaber]

Dude, McCaber...let's be bros. :cool:
Sounds awesome to me. Should we get parents?

[Gwathagor]

Parents are square. Parents are for losers. They don't understand the young people.
:p

[Thinlómien]

A random suggestion about what to do when the Good Wizard would be able to create additional gifteds: what about not turning that additional person into a permanent gifted, but just give the Wizard the possibility to communicate with that individual for that one night? This won't make the gifteds too strong, but will still provide them with an advantage.I'm afraid I don't understand... Do you mean that the GW could communicate with ordos during the Night? I can't see the advantage in that...

About the number of kills of the wolves. What is it you don't see - or what is it I say in such a muddled way that no one understands?

The question is whether three wolves can make two kills or do we need a fourth for them to make two kills. That has a big implication as if no wolf is killed on Day1 the wolves can start with two kills in the beginning of the game (Night2) and if no wolf is gotten the next Day they will have at least two Nights more of two kills per Night - if three wolves are enough for two kills per Night.

If we say three wolves are not enough for there being two nightly kills the wolves / EW actually need to play well to earn the second kill. On the other occasion they will get two kills for granted form the beginning unless they lose one of them on Day1.I think you're making this unnecessarily complicated. Why not give the wolves two kills from the beginning and then change it to one kill when the village is small enough? And the number of wolves would affect nothing at all. I think it would be simpler and far less confusing. Are there faults in this system? (Except the one you mentioned, that it doesn't sound good narration-wise, but I'm inclined to think you'll be able to solve that. I mean, it doesn't make sense narration-wise that in the regular games the wolves only kill one person per Night in the first place, if you ask me...)

What about retractable votes and double-lynches? I'm against the latter, but could be persuaded to support the first, even though I'm inclined to be against it. :p

And Nogrod, you forgot to add that Brinn is Greenie's apprentice. :)

[Lhunardawen]

After watching the Phantom of the Opera film last night, I have this strong urge to propose to our very own phantom...

But it is equally tempting to take Cailin as my adoptive mother (though it would be rather odd to have the absentee Eomer as my dad! :eek: ). Could both of these work somehow?

[Aganzir]

Now only Nerwen will have to change her avvie to a Disney one to keep the family together... ;)

Oh and if The Ka is still playing I'd love her to join my family in honour of our mutual love of a certain band...
And I'd love her to be my sister (or some other relative), if she just wants to. :D

Cabbie and Gwath, would either of you like dating me?

Legate, do you want to be my ex?

[Nogrod]

Why not Lhuna?

Let's make you the daughter of Cailín and Eomer - and by their leave I could kill Eomer with myself on the first Night! :D

And if tp is willing you could be a couple at the same time. I see no problem there.

Now let me see who I could be in all this? Maybe I could be Greenie's husband the weird old gaffer? ;)

Although now it seems that Greenie's offspring and their families make more than half of the village this far. So I'd suggest the others (Nerwen/Lalaith/Aganzir/Volo - Kitanna/Brinn - Gwath/McCaber) to somehow connect to each other. I could be the father of some of you and if the next players to come in would cling into that family (being my bro or wife fex.) we could build another big family tying the rest together.

About the ages then...

Now there clearly is one gammer: Greenie

The adults (those who are parents or their siblings) are: Cailín, Nilp, Lommy, Mac, Rikae + Nerwen & Lalaith

The young people seem to be: Sally, Kath, the phantom, Diamond, Aganzir, Brinn, Kitanna (Brinn and Kit because Brinn and Kath are "life partners" and Kath is Nilp's and Lommy's daughter) and if Cailín will take Lhuna as her daughter she will be a young one as well.

How about you Gwath & McCaber? We seem to have quite a number of enchanting young ladies out there walking free... So why don't you at least show a romantic interest? :)

[Aganzir]

Hey I want to be young too! :p

Actually it's rather all the same, and if there aren't enough little kiddies I can be one as well. I just thought it would be amusing to be the loose teenage daughter of the family black sheep. :smokin:

What about you Nog being Lalaith and Nerwen's father?

edit: was my name in the list all along and I just missed it? Oh well, never mind.

[Lhunardawen]

Cabbie and Gwath, would either of you like dating me?

Legate, do you want to be my ex?
She gets around, she does... :p

Why not Lhuna?
I thought there might be something unethical there, but I was wrong apparently. Let's hope the phantom agrees. *crosses fingers*

Let's make you the daughter of Cailín and Eomer - and by their leave I could kill Eomer with myself on the first Night! :D
No, don't kill my daddy! Just send him somewhere far away, but please please pretty please keep him alive! Or my mum will be sooo devastated. :(

[Nogrod]

edit: was my name in the list all along and I just missed it? Oh well, never mind.No it wasn't but I saw my mistake just after posting it and added you there.

And with young I mean here teenagers or something - well old enough to have boy/girlfriends. Though anyone so wishing can be younger as well - like Lommy was in the last one ("little girl who steals other children's candy"). :p

Also I'd like to see some professions as those add to your character's and give inspiration to the narrations. I'm not going to be picky about them but I'll just remind you that this village and the story go far back in time into the first human villages there ever were in the ME. So the technology will be rude even if I think they should know agriculture - and all that comes with it; baking, brewing, handcrafts, smiths, tailors - as they live in a village surrounded by a palisade wall. But it would be nice to have fishermen or hunters as well...

All this doesn't mean you have to be dead serious though... :)

[Nogrod]

No, don't kill my daddy! Just send him somewhere far away, but please please pretty please keep him alive! Or my mum will be sooo devastated. :(Let's send him to get help then... :cool:

[A Little Green]

Oh and Greenie, I'll be your apprentice. Great! (I can't wait to get to ordering you about, dear. :p)

Now there clearly is one gammer: Greenie So am I really the only old one in the village? :eek: Actually, on second thought, it does give me a sort of authority... Hee hee... :smokin:

[Aganzir]

She gets around, she does... :p
Well I used to be married to Legate in Nog's last WW, and since he liked it so much I didn't have the heart not to remind him of it.

I will be a 15-year-old lass who doesn't help her family members with housework but hangs around the village all day long doing nothing (except picking flowers and looking pretty).
edit: assuming, of course, that it's ok for Lalaith to have a 15-year-old daughter. I could be a few years younger as well. :D

Volo, do you want to be a crippled cat with a broken tail?

[Nogrod]

Okay. I made a first version of the families taking it for granted that the phantom takes Lhuna as his girlfriend and that Volo would be the son of Nerwen - thus enabling him being teased by Agan... and if Nerwen and Lalaith accept me as their father... :)

Everything there is can be changed. I just wanted to see how it would look like and to offer you as well a better understanding of the relations. And for example Gwath and McCaber do not need to be youngsters if they prefer fex. to marry Nerwen and Lalaith (them willing as well...) or something.

So here it is:
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc90/NogrodU/DWIIfamilies-1.jpg

[Lhunardawen]

You won't believe how much tempted I am to make a pedigree analysis out of this...only there's no genetic trait to analyse. :rolleyes:

[Cailín]

Let's send him to get help then... :cool:

Hm.

The only reason Eomer of the Rohirrim would leave his beloved wife and poor defenceless daughter is being brutally slaughtered. Besides, he is rather amused by the prospect of having a death scene, despite not playing in the game.

Of course I shall be devastated, but I suspect I will not be the only widow by the end of this game. ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Legate, if you decide to join, would you like to be my boyfriend? I'm not sure I'm ready to be married/engaged yet, so I'll do that if it's all right with you. Besides, that way if I sadly have to pull out I won't be jilting any other young gentleman who has signed up for certain. Is this an acceptable....proposal?
It is, why not? :) I accept.

Legate, do you want to be my ex?
If you really insisted - could be, I have no problem with that.

You won't believe how much tempted I am to make a pedigree analysis out of this...only there's no genetic trait to analyse.
There is. As you can see from the family tree, Greenie's family is all green :)

P.S. Oh, and, I forgot, I join ;) Thinking of occupation, I wouldn't mind being a herdsman (or herdsman's son, or even an "immigrant" so that we don't have to seek a father for me, since he would be simply somewhere else) or something like that...

[Lhunardawen]

Hm.

The only reason Eomer of the Rohirrim would leave his beloved wife and poor defenceless daughter is being brutally slaughtered. Besides, he is rather amused by the prospect of having a death scene, despite not playing in the game.

Of course I shall be devastated, but I suspect I will not be the only widow by the end of this game. ;)
Ah well, a semi-orphan I will be. Of course my father will only be heroic and nothing else. Belated happy mothers' day, anyway. :D

There is. As you can see from the family tree, Greenie's family is all green :)
Hmm...and maybe the different degrees of green-ness also tell something...

[Nogrod]

Good to see you making up your mind Legate! I've added you to the list with +.

A few "adults" would be great to play the fathers and mothers of Kit/Brinn & Gwath/McCaber and some gaffers/gammers would be nice as well.

We have now 20 players. That's a number we can play with but a few more would be nice indeed!

[Thinlómien]

We have now 20 players. That's a number we can play with but a few more would be nice indeed!Last time we had 30... I think 25 at least would be nice and probably not THAT difficult to get if you advertise a bit more...

[Brinniel]

Brinn, if you'll take me I've always wanted a twin too.
Hurray, I have a twin! :D

Now all we need is a big brother we can pester. Legate, would you like to be our err...victim? :p

If Gwath and McCaber want to be older, one of them could be our father. Just an idea...

About ages...I would think Kitanna, Kath, and me (and Legate?) to be slightly older than teenagers...more like college age. Mainly because I couldn't imagine gaining a life partner while still in high school. Ah, but still...young love... :Merisu:

[McCaber]

Cabbie and Gwath, would either of you like dating me?
Of course I would. Hang on a sec while I fend my brother off with this stick.

(muffled sounds of whacking)

He has no objection. Let's go out.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Now all we need is a big brother we can pester. Legate, would you like to be our err...victim? :p
Hm, if you can't find anyone better... why not.

About ages...I would think Kitanna, Kath, and me (and Legate?) to be slightly older than teenagers...more like college age. Mainly because I couldn't imagine gaining a life partner while still in high school. Ah, but still...young love... :Merisu:
Hey, but seconded. I thought similarly (although depending on the historic period, or when it comes to M-E I don't know, but in some case a fifteen year old girl who is not married would be close to unimaginable).

[Nogrod]

(although depending on the historic period, or when it comes to M-E I don't know, but in some case a fifteen year old girl who is not married would be close to unimaginable).Let's not be that authentic... :D

Also I agree with you Kit-Kat-Brinn-Leg being 20+.

My overall idea has just been that you "youngsters" are young because you are someone's daughters or sons. So feel free to pick an age everyone.

And the professions!

I'll upgrade the list with Legate as the big brother and McCaber dating Aganzir...

[Nogrod]

Ha-ha!

Legate and Brinn (siblings) are dating Sally and Kath (siblings)... :D

[Aganzir]

Ha-ha!

Legate and Brinn (siblings) are dating Sally and Kath (siblings)... :D
Yes, we actually laughed at that with Lommy already a while ago. :D

Hey, what about Volo being the father of Legate, Brinn & Kitanna or McC & Gwathie? I think the village might need more adults than teenagers right now.

[Nogrod]

Hey, what about Volo being the father of Legate, Brinn & Kitanna or McC & Gwathie? I think the village might need more adults than teenagers right now.If Volo agrees... that would be great! And if they all agree he could even be my son and brother of Nerwen & Lalaith?

I've sent a few PM's to ask for some people to join. Let's see how the host of additional players to come in will fit the scene... :)

What I wanted to say is that we're in no hurry in the end. There's something like two weeks + to the start anyway. And we still have to iron out a few cases considering the rules...

[Aganzir]

And if they all agree he could even be my son and brother of Nerwen & Lalaith?
Then I would surely be treading my mother's footsteps when it comes to upsetting my relatives... :p I mean, dating my own cousin...

[Nogrod]

I mean, dating my own cousin...Darn... you're right...

Well either we are that complicated people or then we just forget my additional idea...

[Rikae]

Greenie - Ah, a wicked mother-in-law... ;)

Nogrod - Just how entangled would you like these family trees to be? I've been thinking that I would like some siblings and/or parents of my own. Do you think you could handle another daughter? Or how about if I were Gwath & McCobbler's bossy big sister?:D

At any rate, I wanted to be .... a lumberjack! Who says middle-aged women can't be lumberjacks? *icy glare*

[Nogrod]

Nogrod - Just how entangled would you like these family trees to be? I've been thinking that I would like some siblings and/or parents of my own. Do you think you could handle another daughter? Or how about if I were Gwath & McCobbler's bossy big sister?:DTwo rivalling families constituting a village might be a good thing but then again a village that is totally cross-married could be fine as well... Let's see... both variations will give us a lot of possibilities ie. wicked mother-in-laws, jealous brothers, pestering little sisters... :)


Btw. be encouraged to appoint for the wizard's role as well! Last time every wizard-candidate / actual wizard were first-timers so don't let the role scare you off. It will be chance of a lifetime to play a different game! There are candidates already but I'd like to see more... But just remember: do not say a word about it here! Only PM it to me.

[Lalaith]

This thread is clearly just a taster of the mayhem that DW II promises to be. I feel like I can't keep track.

Firstly - Nogrod very well knows that he is actually my oldest brother, but if he wants to masquerade as my father in this game that is fine.

Secondly, as for profession, woman mysteriously turning up in a village with a child in tow, there is only one option...I must, a la Joanne Harris, be a chocolate shop owner.

[the phantom]

Sounds lovely, Lhuna. :smokin: Though I'm disappointed Eomer won't be around to play the part of future father-in-law. And Cailin, dear, don't you worry- your daughter will be in good hands.

[Lalaith]

I feel I should be doing something black-sheepy. If anyone is interested, do say.

[mormegil]

++Morm

Although with my new job my activity might be a bit more limited than normal.

[Kath]

morm! Oh I'm so pleased you're joining. :D

[Nogrod]

Good to see you Morm!

Check the post #84 and think where you should put yourself in relation to the families forming here. There are a few vacancies for fathers / husbands open especially... :)

And if you wished to be my brother & father to a few youngsters the better. We'd get another big family by that. Maybe we could find you a wife from those who have not yet called in?

[Nogrod]

Just preliminary thoughts to hard questions... and I'd like to hear your response to these!

When the GW (or EW, for that matter) has reached their minion quota, how will their scryings affect things? In no way, except that they can find the other wizard? If we give the EW no limit in how many wolves he can have, I suggest that when the GW has reached the gifted limit, her scryings may count as ranger protections.This "scry protection" could be one of the things the wizard might do (for only that particular Night though!). The second one would be something like scouting thing eg. kind of seer / anti-scrying for both of the wizards. The wizard would have to decide what to do.

Now it should be also remembered that it will not be probable these situations occur in the actual game very often.

Possibility 1)
I might be drawn into introducing a limit to the scries. Let's say 1/3 of the village for the EW and 1/4 to the GW (and not more than two seers, really).

If the EW gets everything right and luck favours her she will get the sixth wolf on Day4. Then the total of villagers will be about -6 from the starting line-up. So from 30 it will be 24/6, from 25 it will be 19/6 (1/3 being 18/6). But it's not probable the EW will get everything her way...

Does that sound reasonable to you?

Possibility 2)
The other way to handle this would be limiting the GW to three gifteds (one each) which could be re-scried when one of them dies or is lost - and then the EW would also have a limit- and a tighter one than in the first version - like 1/4?


The difference is how many special-roles we wish to have: more or less? The first version produces more special roles and the second less.


Possibility 3)
Or should we give the EW unlimited scries? In the last game the villagers killed a wolf almost every Day but still lost... I think that is a major handicap - although the evil-team played well indeed and Roa was just magnificient.


Anyway when the game starts it will be a different matter depending on how people play and how the wizards / specials succeed.


What happens if the wolves attack a wizard during the Night? No kill? Will the wolves or the EW know that they targeted the GW (as they probably won't target the EW if he's the one to have the last word on the kill)? There will be no kill but the identity of the good wizard will be revealed to the EW. It's up to her whether she wishes to pass that knowledge to her minions or not. The wolves are not able to target the EW as she can override their suggestions.

What if the hunter decides to take down a wizard? Nothing? But then everybody will know that the hunter targeted a wizard... If the hunter targets the EW could the GW be told about this, thus compensating for the lack of hunter-kill? Well, a hunter can't kill a wizard. A wizard can be killed only by another wizard. The fact that everyone knows the hunter targeted a wizard maybe no problem as it doesn't give security to anyone's guesses whom it might have been. But I like the idea that the GW would learn the EW's identity in that occasion. Which yet again is not the most probable thing happening is this large village...

Or will wolves and/or hunters get a second chance if the one they want to kill is unkillable?Nope. Unless their master knows it and wishes to guide them already in advance...

It's yet one of the nice things in this game. The wizards may decide how much they wish to play as a team with their minions and get all the help they can from them - and how much risk they're willing to take that way if one of their lot turns into the service of the other team? In the first game no one turned from good to evil or from evil to good but who knows what happens this time? If we take my suggestion 1) (more special roles) it heightens the possibility of a minion being lost to the other side and would add to the tension of the game.

And the specials should argue their cases to the wizard as well as they can. If a certain minion looks like being up to date the wizard might be more willing to let that one minion share the knowledge and thence make that individual's game more exciting... But yes, that's for the wizard to decide...

Okay. Time to bed. Let's continue this tomorrow...

[Nogrod]

Nogrod very well knows that he is actually my oldest brother, but if he wants to masquerade as my father in this game that is fine.Oh. Sure. I may need to change my preliminary "relations-map" for you're right. Let's see how this developes. I'd like to be true to my identity and be your big brother but let's see... :)

[the phantom]

Yay! Morm is playing!

You should be Rikae's brother so you can be my uncle. You'd be a very cool uncle.

[Lhunardawen]

The possibility of there having more gifteds than usual sounds exciting, but will that still be okay once the game reverts to its original form after the wizards duel? Maybe the large number of players can dampen the effect a bit but the wizards duel can happen only after a certain Day, right? Won't the village be a bit too small for all those gifteds by then?

EDIT (instead of double-posting): Believe me, Gwath and McCaber, you'll want to be part of a bigger family once this game starts. Would you be my big brothers? Don't worry, my parents aren't the strict and stifling type. :) (Well, you won't be - right, Cailin?)

[Gwathagor]

Of course I would. Hang on a sec while I fend my brother off with this stick.

(muffled sounds of whacking)

He has no objection. Let's go out.


You....dog! You dastardly, under-handed...dog! You've stolen Aganzir, and you don't even care about her. You just want her money. However, because you are my younger brother, I shall not let this divide us. I shall stand by the two of you and protect you. But I'll never marry. I shall be a loner until the end of my days. (This is becoming rather romantic).

[Lhunardawen]

Remember Loki?
Oh, that was the most stinging "I told you so" ever said by anyone in a Werewolf game. :D

After having skimmed through the first DWW (goodness, it took me hours! I almost want to commit suicide again! :p), I have a few things to say, just to get things off my shoulders:

1. Just to clarify, either wizard cannot refuse a duel once the other challenges. Right? But they do have the choice not to challenge right away even if the identity of the other is already revealed to them.

2. Yes, I think it would be better if the player scried by both wizards is killed. I don't know how we'll all react if this happens again. *points up*

3. I agree that the GW should also be given three players to scry on Night 1. (And trust Mac to know his maths - the Night 1 scry list should indeed include more than 5 people.)

4. I go with the standard 3 wolves = 1 Night kill, and then maybe just add one kill for each added wolf? Would that sway the balance too much? If so then maybe there can be 2 Night kills for 4 to 6 wolves. I seriously hope we don't get more than 6 wolves at a time! :eek:

5. 7 AM (my time) deadline should be good, that will give me the night to catch up. (Who needs to study, do homework, and sleep?)

6. Sorry, I must be really dim, but when are wizards and minions allowed to communicate again?

7. I still say no to retractable votes. Double lynches...hmm...is it not enough that there's a possibility that more than one person could be killed at Night? And we're not always wise with our lynch victims (understatement of the year). I'll go with no.

8. Perhaps Eomer would consent to be sub-mod? Oh, no, that would be weirder than he and Cailin playing together. Forget I mentioned it.

9. I'd like to be an apprentice healer. Will someone take and train me?

10. If the EW gets everything right and luck favours her she will get the sixth wolf on Day4. Then the total of villagers will be about -6 from the starting line-up. So from 30 it will be 24/6, from 25 it will be 19/6 (1/3 being 18/6). But it's not probable the EW will get everything her way...
But by then there will already have been several lynches and Night kills...won't the Bad Team be in too much of an advantage?

The GW could be limited to the three Gifteds, and other scries can be Ranger protections (except if the EW also scries that person, of course) or de-wolfings. Once a Gifted is ungifted or killed, then the GW can regift...but until how many times? If the second Seer, for example, is also killed or ungifted, what then? Can the GW gift someone until he's dead?

11. I remember that the last game there were a couple of Seer dreams lost and the Hunter failed to make a choice because (I'm not sure if this goes for all those cases) they wanted to discuss their options with the GW but ran out of time. Is extending one phase an option? Or will they be allowed to converse Day and Night?

12. I think there was a Hunter complication last game, and I'm not sure if that has already been addressed.

I think I'll go and do something about this headache. I'm sorry if I also gave you one - I'm not feeling most coherent.

[McCaber]

You....dog! You dastardly, under-handed...dog! You've stolen Aganzir, and you don't even care about her. You just want her money. However, because you are my younger brother, I shall not let this divide us. I shall stand by the two of you and protect you. But I'll never marry. I shall be a loner until the end of my days. (This is becoming rather romantic).
You're just jealous 'cause she's hot. And I have to care about Aganzir to get her before you can. But thank you, Gwath. It's always good hearing that your big bro's got your back.

[Nerwen]

9. I'd like to be an apprentice healer. Will someone take and train me?

Sure. Consider yourself apprenticed. (Hope this makes up for lynching you on Day One in the last game.)

There you go, Nogrod– I'm the Healer.

[Lhunardawen]

Do you really think you could make up to me just like that? Just like that?

Whee! That's wonderful. :D

[Cailín]

I shall be a guinea pig breeder. It will be my sole occupation to populate this little village with cute, furry animals. If that is too silly, let me know.

As for a submod, Eomer cannot do it, but you'll really need one Nogrod, or a temporarily higher PM limit. :o I'll respond to all the rule thingies and discussion tonight.

[Aganzir]

You....dog! You dastardly, under-handed...dog! You've stolen Aganzir, and you don't even care about her. You just want her money. However, because you are my younger brother, I shall not let this divide us. I shall stand by the two of you and protect you. But I'll never marry. I shall be a loner until the end of my days. (This is becoming rather romantic).
What money? My mummy's chocolate, you mean?
And don't worry, Gwath - if your brother happens to die before you, I'm yours. :p

maybe there can be 2 Night kills for 4 to 6 wolves.
I think this would be good. However, if there ever were to be more than six wolves, I think they could have just two kills as well. It would take time for the EW to scry seven wolves, and if they got three kills a night I think that would make it unbalanced.

No to retractable votes and multiple lynches.

You're just jealous 'cause she's hot. And I have to care about Aganzir to get her before you can. But thank you, Gwath. It's always good hearing that your big bro's got your back.
Oh! you're making me blush, darling.

[A Little Green]

I'm the Healer. Ahhh, so here is the weird guy with all that modern medicine stuff. Bah. I still think mashed squirrel teeth and exorcism a much better cure for whatever disease.

:rolleyes:

[mormegil]

I would be happy to be a patriach of a family. Father-in-law to Eomer sounds tempting. I will keep my axe ready for anything out of line he may do ;):p

[Nogrod]

Welcome to the game Roa & Celuien!

I agree with Lhuna that you guys (McCaber and Gwath) will be sorry if you're not in a family when this begins... But I'd like to see the other large family to develop as well. With Morm, Roa and Celuien in we could make that other family quite an impressive one too.

So if you're looking for a patriarch's post morm you should consider to be either my brother and the grandpa of Kitanna / Legate / Brinn or their father? I will die on Night1 so that might leave you as the family's oldest male?

Surely this is just a proposition as I'm no Dr. Love by profession... :)

And I wouldn't be concerned as yet as I think that we will be having a few more players to join the game and that would also mean more possibilities to get oneself involved in the family-trees.

I'll upgrade the professions and then try to post for the rule-stuff.

[Nogrod]

To address Lhuna's points (hail for the reading effort! :))

1. Just to clarify, either wizard cannot refuse a duel once the other challenges. Right? But they do have the choice not to challenge right away even if the identity of the other is already revealed to them.Right on both cases. Also the duel can only take place during the Day. So no Night-duels for wizards.

2. Yes, I think it would be better if the player scried by both wizards is killed.Agreed.
3. I agree that the GW should also be given three players to scry on Night 1. (And trust Mac to know his maths - the Night 1 scry list should indeed include more than 5 people.)Yes indeed.

4. I go with the standard 3 wolves = 1 Night kill, and then maybe just add one kill for each added wolf? Would that sway the balance too much? If so then maybe there can be 2 Night kills for 4 to 6 wolves. I seriously hope we don't get more than 6 wolves at a time!I'd say two kills with 4-6 wolves. What to do if the EW manages to scry her wolf-total to 7? Scrying four additional wolves without losing one would take four days in which time they would have in the best case killed 11 innocents. With 25 people playing that would mean the game was over (7 wolves, 2 wizards, 5 innocents) and even with 30 players it would look grim indeed (7 wolves, 2 wizards, 10 innocents). Maybe we should stick to two kills at Night the highest? Although it should be remembered that the EW will not be that efficient in practise and the scenario is a bit far-fetched.

5. 7 AM (my time) deadline should be good, that will give me the night to catch up. (Who needs to study, do homework, and sleep?)What's your timezone? GMT+? The American players would like to make it as late as it could be pushed and to me my limit would be 2AM my time eg. 11PM GMT.

6. Sorry, I must be really dim, but when are wizards and minions allowed to communicate again?All talk within the teams is done during the Night. The minions can send their messages to their wizard via the mod. It's up to the wizard whether she wishes to create a straight link between herself and one or more of her minions or whether she contacts them via the mod as well - or whether she allows some of her minions to know each other and thus enable them to PM together as well.

The question of possible sub-mods needs to be raised again though. I have a vacation and could be reading the thread quite actively so I might also be able to handle the traffic myself - at least for a few days. Roa offered to be a sub-mod and that offer is appreciated. But as she told me in her PM that she could also play I'd love to see her play more than to sub-mod the game... :)

Maybe I could try to persuade someone who drops out of the game early on to join forces with me submodding the game and do the modding alone the first Days / Nights before a submod emerges from the dropped players? That would sound the most sensible to me.

7. I still say no to retractable votes. Double lynches...hmm...is it not enough that there's a possibility that more than one person could be killed at Night? And we're not always wise with our lynch victims (understatement of the year). I'll go with no.Retractable votes are fun but I think there are enough twists and turns in this game without them. So I'd say no as well. With double-lynches I'd like to hear more from you people. For it could be also argued that in a big village it would be good to have double-lynches.

10. The GW could be limited to the three Gifteds, and other scries can be Ranger protections (except if the EW also scries that person, of course) or de-wolfings. Once a Gifted is ungifted or killed, then the GW can regift...but until how many times? If the second Seer, for example, is also killed or ungifted, what then? Can the GW gift someone until he's dead?This is a point to be decided. In relation to DW I we have already eased the GW's situation by allowing her to scry all three gifteds in the beginning. Also if we give the Evil-side less kills than in the last game I'd say we should not give the GW more than three gifteds at a time. The game needed some balancing but let's not "overbalance" it? I'll try to make some dry-runs to see how it goes with different rules...

11. I remember that the last game there were a couple of Seer dreams lost and the Hunter failed to make a choice because (I'm not sure if this goes for all those cases) they wanted to discuss their options with the GW but ran out of time. Is extending one phase an option? Or will they be allowed to converse Day and Night?I'd say no to both. Making Days or Nights longer would easily lead to confusion and Daytime messaging might be a too powerful weapon to the GW (as it would seem the GW has more sense in sharing the knowledge of the roles with her minions).

12. I think there was a Hunter complication last game, and I'm not sure if that has already been addressed.I think it has. For that was a hasty decision by lmp made under pressure. With the advance of a hindsight it is easy to say it was a wrong decision. And now we know it.

[Nogrod]

I made Roa the mother of Legate, Brinn and Kitanna as she said she could fit in anywhere needed. I hope you children have nothing against your mom. That's an offer or suggestion though. Feel free to bring forward other ideas.

Now where do we find a husband for Roa? morm? You'r chance for becoming the patriarch - with quite a strong matriarch by your side though... :rolleyes:

[A Little Green]

Ummm... Do I miss something important if I don't read those horrendously long debates and speculations that I don't really understand anyway? I mean, is it sufficient if I just know the final set of rules when it comes out?

Oh, and great to see new people joining the game. This is starting to look really really good. :)

[Nogrod]

Ummm... Do I miss something important if I don't read those horrendously long debates and speculations that I don't really understand anyway? I mean, is it sufficient if I just know the final set of rules when it comes out?I will be posting two different sets of rules to the actual game-thread in the end.

There will be the basic rules and then the hard-core rules. Anyone should be able to play with the basic-rules but the wizards - and possibly active & involved minions. That doesn't mean others shouldn't look at them to understand what happened in odd situations but that's everyone's own choice then.

[A Little Green]

That wasn't quite what I meant. I just asked whether it's okay if I don't read the rules discussion going on in this thread, because I don't have experience of the last DW game and don't quite know what you are talking about, and certainly don't have anything constructive to say. The actual rules, when you have decided on them, I will read and make sure to understand. ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That wasn't quite what I meant. I just asked whether it's okay if I don't read the rules discussion going on in this thread, because I don't have experience of the last DW game and don't quite know what you are talking about, and certainly don't have anything constructive to say. The actual rules, when you have decided on them, I will read and make sure to understand. ;)

I haven't read anything for a long time except this one post, and I would like to second it :D I mean, maybe if you kept up some simple summary even of what the things look like now, it may be helpful...

[Nogrod]

I mean, maybe if you kept up some simple summary even of what the things look like now, it may be helpful...It's hard to produce a summary of things that are unsettled... :)

But fear not. The rules will emerge from this discussion.

[satansaloser2005]

I haven't read anything for a long time except this one post, and I would like to second it :D I mean, maybe if you kept up some simple summary even of what the things look like now, it may be helpful...

Can I third? I have no idea what's going on, none. But I'm sure it'll make sense once it's all in one convenient little post before the game starts, so I'm not too worried about it.

[Lhunardawen]

To address Lhuna's points (hail for the reading effort!)
*curtsies*

I'd say two kills with 4-6 wolves. What to do if the EW manages to scry her wolf-total to 7? Scrying four additional wolves without losing one would take four days in which time they would have in the best case killed 11 innocents. With 25 people playing that would mean the game was over (7 wolves, 2 wizards, 5 innocents) and even with 30 players it would look grim indeed (7 wolves, 2 wizards, 10 innocents). Maybe we should stick to two kills at Night the highest? Although it should be remembered that the EW will not be that efficient in practise and the scenario is a bit far-fetched.
I agree with you and Agan. 2 Night kills, tops, should do.

What's your timezone? GMT+? The American players would like to make it as late as it could be pushed and to me my limit would be 2AM my time eg. 11PM GMT.
GMT +8 for me and Nilp. I'm not sure how a 7 AM deadline will sit with him, but I'm perfectly fine with it.

The question of possible sub-mods needs to be raised again though. I have a vacation and could be reading the thread quite actively so I might also be able to handle the traffic myself - at least for a few days. Roa offered to be a sub-mod and that offer is appreciated. But as she told me in her PM that she could also play I'd love to see her play more than to sub-mod the game...
I think that will be the case with practically anyone - we'd much rather see them play than mod. :D

Roa! Oooh. That's wonderful. Welcome back. And did I read right that Celuien's sure to be here? :)

Maybe I could try to persuade someone who drops out of the game early on to join forces with me submodding the game and do the modding alone the first Days / Nights before a submod emerges from the dropped players? That would sound the most sensible to me.
I think that's a good idea.

Retractable votes are fun but I think there are enough twists and turns in this game without them. So I'd say no as well. With double-lynches I'd like to hear more from you people. For it could be also argued that in a big village it would be good to have double-lynches.
Okay, maybe it could be put up to a vote. I'm still siding with no.

This is a point to be decided. In relation to DW I we have already eased the GW's situation by allowing her to scry all three gifteds in the beginning. Also if we give the Evil-side less kills than in the last game I'd say we should not give the GW more than three gifteds at a time. The game needed some balancing but let's not "overbalance" it? I'll try to make some dry-runs to see how it goes with different rules...
Oh, yes, of course. The ordos are still on the good side. Maybe each gift can be re-given only once, and then no more?

I'd say no to both. Making Days or Nights longer would easily lead to confusion and Daytime messaging might be a too powerful weapon to the GW (as it would seem the GW has more sense in sharing the knowledge of the roles with her minions).
Point taken. (Can you tell I (morally) want the Good Team to win so much? :D)

[Gwathagor]

What money? My mummy's chocolate, you mean?
And don't worry, Gwath - if your brother happens to die before you, I'm yours. :p

Oooh. Hamlet, anybody?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

You forgot DST, daga. They have them, we don't. So we're GDT+7 now.

I shall be a house-bound sandwich-maker. (Aprons look better on me than on Lommy, who, I believe, is better suited to aquatic poultry-raising. :p ;) ) Also, I say 'nay' to multiple lynchings, 'nay' to retractable votes. Retractable votes are a needless complication, and multiple lynchings make the game too mathematical, especially in a game where the Seer could be reactivated.

Up next, a cost-benefit analysis of Nogrod's Three Possibilities, after finishing my synthesis paper for translation class. :D

[Cailín]

I must agree with Nilp and others: no multiple lynching and no retractable votes. The game is complicated enough without them, and many people will die without giving the village that additional power.

Four wolves or more should allow for two kills a night, while more than six wolves should allow for three (surely we'll not let it get that far?).

I think that by allowing the GW to bless three gifteds from the beginning, you already fix a lot of the balance issues we had last time. The game may even be swayed too much in favour of the good side, so I think a limit on the amount of regiftings is a good idea. Will the Hunter be an ordinary Hunter, by the way?

Have we yet decided on communication (sorry, it was a lot to read)? I remember from last time that the GW had difficulties because there was not enough time to discuss crucial choices with his team members.

[Thinlómien]

I shall be a house-bound sandwich-maker. (Aprons look better on me than on Lommy, who, I believe, is better suited to aquatic poultry-raising.)Great, Nilp, what a well earning man I've married.... :rolleyes: I think I'll be just a bird-tamer in general. So, breeding and training birds, whether they're aquatic or not, although preferring a certain aquatic bird species... ;) Sally (with her duck interest) can be my assistant, Kath may be her father's follower in the sandwich "business"... :p

Sorry, I can't say anything smart about the rules right now, will do that later...

[A Little Green]

Nilp, dear son-in-law, do you make smørrebrød as well? :smokin:

Bird-taming sounds honourable enough. I wait to see what my son has chosen for profession... :rolleyes:

[Lhunardawen]

You forgot DST, daga. They have them, we don't. So we're GDT+7 now.
Whoops. I never did get the hang of DST. Thanks, daga.

(To Mordor: ++Daylight Savings Time)

Retractable votes are a needless complication, and multiple lynchings make the game too mathematical, especially in a game where the Seer could be reactivated.
There's the reason I was looking for.

Four wolves or more should allow for two kills a night, while more than six wolves should allow for three (surely we'll not let it get that far?).
I was thinking about this too - maybe it would be added motivation to the innocents to track down the wolves before they became too many?

Have we yet decided on communication (sorry, it was a lot to read)? I remember from last time that the GW had difficulties because there was not enough time to discuss crucial choices with his team members.
Nogmod said communications are limited to Nights. Oh well...

[Nogrod]

Should we open a hard-core rule-thread so that no one gets frustrated with the need of ironing out the rules? :D

Celuien sent me a PM saying she will be playing. So that's true and confirmed. Great to see her for a long time!

Bad news is that Boro will only have one day/week time to play in the coming weeks and is forced to stay away from the game. :(

I'd say in this kind of game the hunter should be of the classical variety eg. posting a name of one person s/he is hunting and that one will die whether innocent or wolf. As the good team has the advance of sharing GW's and seer's pssible knowledge there must be this risk-factor included.

Have we yet decided on communication (sorry, it was a lot to read)? I remember from last time that the GW had difficulties because there was not enough time to discuss crucial choices with his team members.I stil think 24hour cycle should be enough. If the deadline is 11PM GMT it will be pretty good for all the Europeans and Americans enabling them to check the PM's at various points during the Night - including just before and just after the deadline.

The late deadline might be a bit inconvenient for some Europeans (us Finns and possibly Legate) but that makes it possible for Lhuna and Nilp to be there at the deadline - and eases the situation of the Americans who have day-time occupations. So I think it's a good compromise.

I wouldn't set any internal deadlines to the communication during the Night from outside as they just tend to complicate matters and are hard to define as so much would depend on who the people involved are. The wizards themselves surely are free to impose deadlines to their minions if they see it fit. If the EW calls her wolves and says fex. "if you wish to make points on who to kill, please do it before 6PM GMT as I will not take later contributions into consideration"; or if the GW tells her gifteds that "all the suggestions as to your targets toNight should be with me at 8PM GMT the latest or I will decide it for you" then it's fine for me.

So it's also a question of the wizards telling their minions when they are able to receive information the last time before they send their decisions to me/submod. And in the end active minions can approach their master enough-many times a Night - and an active wizard may give the feedback as well many times a Night. So I wouldn't be too concerned about this question.

[Celuien]

And did I read right that Celuien's sure to be here? :)

'Tis absolutely correct! I couldn't stay away from the Dueling Wizards return... and it has been far too long since I've been in a game. :cool:

I'm looking for a family, if there's anyone who doesn't mind being related to a long-lost wandering child like me. :D

[Nogrod]

I'm looking for a family, if there's anyone who doesn't mind being related to a long-lost wandering child like me. :DI would suggest that you would consider being the mother of Legate / Brinn / Kitanna -trio of 20+ children.

If Morm would be your husband we could start to build another big family there (I could be related to either of you then thus bringing Lalaith and Nerwen and their offspring into the same family as well).

Or how about taking the "young guys" Gwath & McCaber under your protective mummy's care? (sorry guys but that's just the impression that comes to my mind first from this particular game setting... - I mean "dudes" quarrelling over girlfriends and the stuff) :D

I still think we will (have to) get a few players in * so there might be other possibilities as well.

But just suggestions...

Any children in need of a mom? :)

* The official number of players is now 23. There are three people who have quite lately said they would like to join but have not posted to this particular thread (Valier, Azaelia, The Ka). I also hope to hear still from a few people I've sent an invitation to. But feel free to invite people in! 26-28 would be good (the last game had 30). But there's still about two weeks before we start so I'm quite confident we will have a good number of players.

[Diamond18]

Also I'd like to see some professions as those add to your character's and give inspiration to the narrations.

I will be dissolute and unemployed. Like in real life.

I have an imaginary friend named Bert.

And I like to eat candles.

:smokin:

[Volo]

There is. As you can see from the family tree, Greenie's family is all green :)Haha! Pity I can't rep you at the moment! This made my otherwise boring evening somewhat merrier, for a reason I can't explain.

Should we open a hard-core rule-thread so that no one gets frustrated with the need of ironing out the rules? :D
Actually. Now a bad idea. I feel like playing WW already and it's only the discussion thread. It would make things easier. (and we'd break the limit for WW threads for one game :cool: )

I think 4-> Wolves=2 kills.

How about the beginning? A situation like Loki's, both Wizards choose the same player before the game even starts. Wouldn't it be unfair if the player died?

Noggie, could I be your father?

edit: and when I was younger my profession was being the guy who knows everything about staying alive.

[Brinniel]

I would suggest that you would consider being the mother of Legate / Brinn / Kitanna -trio of 20+ children.
But Noggie, isn't Roa our mommy? But I do agree Celuien should be the mother of Gwathy and McCaber. Somebody has to put those two in their place. :p

[the phantom]

Okay, so I've got parents, a sister, a fiance, a grandmother, an aunt, an uncle, and cousins. Now I need a job.

Legate- that's a big herd you have for just one person to take care of. Perhaps we are best buddies and are in the sheep business together. We've been raking in a good little bit the last few years, but these Werewolves are threatening our business.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Legate- that's a big herd you have for just one person to take care of. Perhaps we are best buddies and are in the sheep business together. We've been raking in a good little bit the last few years, but these Werewolves are threatening our business.

Good idea. I think two could take care of the job a lot better than just one. Let's join forces and make business...

[Nogrod]

But Noggie, isn't Roa our mommy? But I do agree Celuien should be the mother of Gwathy and McCaber. Somebody has to put those two in their place. :pThat was just a suggestion as well... Maybe Roa could be the mother of you three and Celuien could be the mother of the two guys? And they could be sisters together?

And if Volo would like to be my father (as he says) then I could sit in my right place as the big-brother of Lalaith and possibly the husband of Roa or Celuien? (don't worry my friends, I will be dead after Night1 :)).

That would still leave open the possibility of morm being the actual patriarch if Volo is a weak gamling and morm is my brother (and the other child of Volo's and husband of either Roa or Celuien - with this scenario I'd say I would have to be tha husband of Roa... just thinking of our shared history in WW... :D).

I'm going to see how it would work - tomorrow. And if you people have any preferences let me know about them.

Feel free to disagree or to suggest better options!

[Nogrod]

How about the beginning? A situation like Loki's, both Wizards choose the same player before the game even starts. Wouldn't it be unfair if the player died?Read the thread... :rolleyes:

I think there is a consensus now that both wizards will scry at least five people and then the mod is going to partly sort them out (so that those called for by both of the wizards will be let alone and a wizard can't scry another wizard ) and in the end the mod will randomize the eligible ones to both wizards from those left. So they will never know why they were assigned just those people in the beginning: was it because the other wizard had gone for them as well or was it just pure luck. They can sure make their own inferences from that "lottery" but that's already playing the game!

On other Nights than Night1 the one scried by both wizards will die for it. But not on the first one before the game actually starts.

[Celuien]

I like all of the options... particularly the one involving morm, given our old werewolf history. :D

[Nogrod]

I like all of the options... particularly the one involving morm, given our old werewolf history. :DThe marriage between myself and Roa would honour a long tradition as well. ;) So unless morm (or Roa) protests I'll be making it thus.

So Myself and Roa will be the parents of Legate, Kitanna and Brinn. Morm is my brother, married to Celuien. Together they are the parents of McCaber and Gwath. I try to find time to update the family-map later today.

So now we have another big family and everyone in the game this far is integrated to a family. Narration / playingwise it's also good that as Eomer will be killed with me on Night1 then both families suffer a loss.

[Volo]

Read the thread... Sorry... :( I agree with the idea.

[Nogrod]

Sorry... :( I agree with the idea.Don't be sorry... I just realised I had forgotten the smiley from there - it would belong there... I think I will add it. :D


Important notice:

I've made the first version of the "basic rules" ie. what a normal villager should know about the game and the rules. It can be found from the game thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=14849). There will be a few things we should reach agreement on before the game starts so let me know what you think about them (those things are italicized there).

I'll try to come up with the "advanced rules" ie. what the minions and the wizards should know later...

[satansaloser2005]

Okay, here's my situation. I work until the deadline, with no internet at work. I can post during lunches and during nights (Day starts) and probably before I head to work. This means that any and all of my votes will be cast at LEAST six hours prior to deadline. Alternatively, I can text at work, and if my duckling has internet access, she may be able to proxy vote for me (only vote, no arguments, no other posting, just post my final decision) if she agrees to do so (and I'll only do that if it's absolutely necessary, e.g. my internet access is cut off for a day or two, I'm in danger of modfire to due aforementioned reason, my fingers have been cut off, etc., so for the most part all votes will come from me and any post made FOR me and not BY me will be marked as such for clarity and fairness.)



If everyone else is okay with that, you can take the question marks off my name, and let's get to werewolfing! :)

[Aganzir]

Oooh. Hamlet, anybody?
I prefer the Disney version. ;)

So Myself and Roa will be the parents of Legate, Kitanna and Brinn. Morm is my brother, married to Celuien. Together they are the parents of McCaber and Gwath. I try to find time to update the family-map later today.
So I've been dating two of my cousins? Great. :D
(Really, I don't mind. It's just funnier that way.)

**

In case of a tie the one gaining the highest vote first will die (this might be subject to change as I kind of liked the test in a game sometime ago where the last one gaining the highest vote was killed).
I think it might be interesting to try the version with the last gaining the highest vote count being lynched. In the game(s?) it was used earlier there were retractable votes, which made it a bit different.

There will be no modfire so the villagers need to get rid of people they don’t trust themselves. (This is also subject to change if a majority has a strong view on this the other way. Then the ruling would be that two Days in a row with no votes would bring on the modfire).
I would say no to modfire. There will be many enough deaths anyway.

[Thinlómien]

I think it might be interesting to try the version with the last gaining the highest vote count being lynched. In the game(s?) it was used earlier there were retractable votes, which made it a bit different.I think we should go for the usual "mod flips a coin" method, this game is complicated enough anyway...

[Aganzir]

I think we should go for the usual "mod flips a coin" method, this game is complicated enough anyway...
I can't really see it adding up to the complexity of the game. I mean, be the game complicated or not, do people think about every rule all the time, even when they vote?

[Thinlómien]

I can't really see it adding up to the complexity of the game. I mean, be the game complicated or not, do people think about every rule all the time, even when they vote?I'm afraid I don't get your logic. I don't know of others, but it really would be an effort to me to remember that the last one to reach the highest vote count dies, if the game is being exciting and I have to wonder about a dozen different scenarios or outcomes of the lynch when I try to vote... I'd really prefer it to be a little simpler. There's enough to keep in mind and keep an eye on with all those wizards around...

[Nogrod]

No problem Sally! Many will need to vote earlier than you according to circumstances... The questionmark will be removed. Yay! :D

Okay.

One vote for the last to gain the highest number of votes lynched.
One vote for random decision by mod in case of a tie.
No votes for the first to gain the highest number of votes lynched.

What say you others?

[satansaloser2005]

No problem Sally! Many will need to vote earlier than you according to circumstances... The questionmark will be removed. Yay! :D

Okay.

One vote for the last to gain the highest number of votes lynched.
One vote for random decision by mod in case of a tie.
No votes for the first to gain the highest number of votes lynched.

What say you others?



Woot!

Um, I almost prefer the random lynch just because it'd be easy for wolves to tie up votes and have one hold til last, etc. So I'm going for either random pick or whoever gets there first.

[Cailín]

There should definitely be modfire for those inactive players who fail to vote two days in a row.

Speaking about failure to post or vote, I unexpectedly got offered a part-time job this morning (yay! money). Together with my already busy graduating student schedule, this unfortunately leads to me being unable to dedicate as much time to this game as it deserves. Yet do not despair! My lovely husband / boyfriend Eomer has agreed to help me and post under my name whenever necessary. We have done a similar thing before in Shasta's Weres of Eire game and it worked quite smoothly.

Hope everyone accepts this arrangement.

[Nogrod]

Hope everyone accepts this arrangement.It sounds good. And in a way we get you both into the game this way! :)

[Roa_Aoife]

That would still leave open the possibility of morm being the actual patriarch if Volo is a weak gamling and morm is my brother (and the other child of Volo's and husband of either Roa or Celuien - with this scenario I'd say I would have to be tha husband of Roa... just thinking of our shared history in WW... :D).


Is that a proposal, Nogrod? :Merisu:

I accept! And I promise to make a suitable ruckus over your death.

Retractable votes in a village of 25 or more will make for a big confusing mess. Best avoid that.

Double lynches are also probably a bad idea, considering how fast the numbers would drop.

The last game, the wolves had two kills for being four or more, (something that took me a few Days to achieve, so fewer people were cut out of the game early.)

The GW never actually reached a situation where he had all three gifted last game. *looks very pleased with herself* Of course, different Wizards could turn out very differently this game. I don't know about being an extra Ranger with scrying, though. After all, he's already an extra Seer, which is an advantage as it is, even with out the ability to turn wolves into ordos, which is a BIG advantage for the good side. As the EW, losing my wolves to scrying was my biggest fear, especially Morm, who knew my identity (by accident). Having all three to start with is a big balancer from the last game, and he should definitely be allowed to re-gift as many times as he needs to replace lost gifted.

I never had a limit on the number of wolves I could have, but with the way I burned through them, the most I ever managed was six. I'm not sure about limiting the number, because on the one hand, if the EW and the wolves are crafty enough to get high numbers and keep them (not as easy as it sounds), then Kudos to them. Besides, if the EW managed to reach the limit, what would she do for scrying? I can see how the GW could be ranger-esque (even if I don't really agree with it), but honestly, what would the EW get to do?

That's just the perspective of the former EW, though. Where's Gurthang? I remember his biggest complaint was having to communicate during the Day instead of the Night.

EDIT: Also, I vote that the first to reach the highest number of votes gets lynched. Random just makes it harder on both teams.

[Lhunardawen]

I vote for the first to get the highest number of votes to be lynched. *grumbles about coin-flipping* :p

Roa makes a good point about the GW being an extra Seer, and I agree that turning the extra scries into Ranger protections will be a bit too advantageous for the Good Team. It's enough that the GW finds out that the villager is not a wolf or the EW.

[the phantom]

Personally, I'd like the last person to reach the vote total to be lynched. That leaves open more voting possibilities in my mind. If you need to surpass the vote leader rather than simply tie them in order to get your candidate lynched you are obviously less likely to be successful, and therefore less likely to try it.

I've always thought one of the most telling things about voting behavior is when people swoop in to "save" someone from the chopping block. And making the last person to reach the count be the one who gets the axe would encourage that sort of saving behavior.

Or you could also have a situation like this-
Person 1- 5 votes
Person 2- 4 votes
Person 3- 4 votes

There are still a couple people left to vote who would like to see Person 2 or 3 lynched, but if the rules say the first person gets lynched then their votes are essentially worthless. But if the last person gets lynched their votes are still very powerful and then they will have to compete with each other to be the last to cast their vote, and how hard they try at it might be an indicator of how badly they want to lynch their candidate (or save the other candidate).

In my opinion the longer you can keep the decision up in the air and the more room you leave for multiple candidates to be under the gun, the better.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So Myself and Roa will be the parents of Legate, Kitanna and Brinn.
So I am the son of Nogrod and Roa? Fantastic! I couldn't have imagined a better WWing family here :) (and that's not speaking about my sisters...)

(And it's not diminished by the fact that Nog dies immediately. The better actually, what if I was later forced to kill him? It can still happen with Roa though.)

Personally, I'd like the last person to reach the vote total to be lynched. That leaves open more voting possibilities in my mind. If you need to surpass the vote leader rather than simply tie them in order to get your candidate lynched you are obviously less likely to be successful, and therefore less likely to try it.

Ha! At last a question I can give my opinion on. Seriously now, also given the fact that lot of us... or me actually ;) may be sometimes N/A for the DL (what was that? A sentence composed of abbreviations? It could have been worse though), I would fancy the idea of coin-flip. But that's just one personal vote... for it being personally convinient...

[Aganzir]

Roa makes a good point about the GW being an extra Seer, and I agree that turning the extra scries into Ranger protections will be a bit too advantageous for the Good Team. It's enough that the GW finds out that the villager is not a wolf or the EW.
Seconded.

And hey, a proper occupation just occurred to me. I want to be the little match girl! :smokin:

[Thinlómien]

As smart as all we others are, I'm so glad to see Roa around and pointing out the flaws in the rule speculations. :D ;) Her words about GW and EW make sense.

There should definitely be modfire for those inactive players who fail to vote two days in a row. I'm inclined to agree. We have enough to hunt in the wolves and the EW, we don't want to go around chasing the mutes as well... (Sorry for rather horrible phrasing... :D) But if there's a consensus against severe modfire, what if it's just for those who don't post at all ie vote things etc don't count? Althoguh, that does look like a bad compromise...

[Aganzir]

what if it's just for those who don't post at all ie vote things etc don't count?
I think that might be a good solution.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

what if it's just for those who don't post at all ie vote things etc don't count?I think that might be a good solution.
I would also second that (hey, I'm starting to like this more and more. Finally questions I understand and can reply to them :) ).

***

I maybe have one more question, and I would like to apologize if it is answered here, but you know, I was not reading through all this rules discussion, so...

If the GW scries an ordo she becomes either a gifted (if there is room in the “roster” of max. 3 gifteds at a time) or is defended from the EW’s possible scry that Night (= can not be scried by the EW that Night).

Okay, I think I get this (the second part), it's simply a more "lawyerish" way of saying that the GW and EW, if they scry on the same person, their abilities simply cancel each other and nothing happens, right? Or if it means anything more, please clarify.

But, to this relates, when does the night scrying come in effect? Logically it would look like that it's calculated at the end of the Night, when everyone has posted their picks? Then, it will mean the Wizards can communicate with the new Gifteds/Wolves only the Night after, not the very same Night? (Or can they communicate with them during the Day as well?)

Okay, or I am gibbering nonsense, in that case feel free to ignore me :D

[Aganzir]

Okay, I think I get this (the second part), it's simply a more "lawyerish" way of saying that the GW and EW, if they scry on the same person, their abilities simply cancel each other and nothing happens, right? Or if it means anything more, please clarify.
If the GW and the EW try to scry the same person, he dies.

There's been talk whether the GW should have a gifted limit, and thus she could protect people against the EW's scrying on the nights she couldn't scry herself any more gifteds.
Personally I think it would be too much of an advantage for her, though.

Hope this was of some help and I didn't mess the things up myself.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

If the GW and the EW try to scry the same person, he dies.

There's been talk whether the GW should have a gifted limit, and thus she could protect people against the EW's scrying on the nights she couldn't scry herself any more gifteds.
Personally I think it would be too much of an advantage for her, though.

Hope this was of some help and I didn't mess the things up myself.

Eh... sure? Well at least on the game thread it looked quite differently, it looked like that the GW can simply protect the person. And surely even then, what if let's say there were a person who's already a Gifted, and the EW scried on her, but the GW did too (of course why would he do that, but it's technically possible; and f.ex. he could if he presumed that EW wants to scry that person, and wanted to keep this person to himself as a Gifted) - in that case, the person surely wouldn't die too? That will be pretty unfair. In any case I think the idea of dying is quite odd. Was it like that in the former game?

And if there are any disputes according to this, my vote would be definitely for letting the GW at least protect the people against EW. Because otherwise, EW can scry millions of Wolves but the GW has only a few Gifteds on her side. I know she technically has the ordos on her side as well, but... you see, in normal village you have also Wolves vs. both Gifteds and Ordos. So here you'd have Wolf kill vs. Ranger protection (is there a Ranger, right? If the GW "creates" him), and so you should have EW scrying vs. GW scrying. Balance, simply.

However I don't want to get deep into this... and I am puzzled as well as it looked like it's decided already anyway...

[the phantom]

If both wizards scry the same same person then their identities are revealed to each other, yes?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

If both wizards scry the same same person then their identities are revealed to each other, yes?

This is getting better and better :rolleyes: Nogroood! Heeelp... :D

[Aganzir]

Eh... sure?
No. Forget all that I said.

I really have no idea where that came from - I seem to have mixed everything up indeed, but I don't know how, as it was still quite clear to me what we were talking about (the GW's ability to protect people) a while before I started typing that post.

But it's not quite decided yet, unless I've missed something again.

If both wizards scry the same same person then their identities are revealed to each other, yes?
I think that person only dies and the wizards don't learn each other's identities.

Maybe I should just shut up and wait for Nog before I manage to be any more confusing.

[mormegil]

As far as where I should belong...put me where you need me.

[THE Ka]

*tip toes in*

Aganzir and Lommy have written and asked about joining, and after thinking about the whole affair, I'd love to join!
Sorry to return an answer so late, I've been rather busy finishing up my school year lately, and still have a few more things to complete. I will be free to play though, mind you!
Now, off to read all of the rules and see what I got myself into.:rolleyes:

Also, Lalaith, I am quite honored the offer to be adopted. I promise to be my usual neatfreak and cut back on the craziness as long as you don't send me back. :D
(I have all my teeth and vaccines. Promise.)

For occupations, I guess I'll be a dog whipper assistant and help to keep all of the rowdy and bad-tempered pups out of homes and food storages. Though, I don't know how I feel about whipping them, might give them a bop on the head and hug though. :-P

If there is any needed occupations though, definately put me where one is needed, I'm not really partial to where I'm grudging an existance.

~ thanking you Ka

[Valier]

Sorry Nogrod, You will have to count me out of this one. Now is not the time for me to get into a WW game (no matter how grand;)) good luck

[Thinlómien]

May I clear up the mess for you?

In the previous game, when both wizards scried the same person, they learnt each other's identity.

In this game, when both wizards scry the same person, s/he dies.

:)

[Macalaure]

I have studied the rules and have the following questions:

If the Good Wizard has all the gifteds, but loses one gifted due to the Evil Wizard's scry or a wolfkill, assuming his scry isn't a wolf, will the scried person immediately replace the lost gifted (or will the GW only get a chance to regift the following night? I think the former is more fair.), or will he just be protected from the scry that didn't hit him? (I hope it's clear what I mean...)

I'm rather confused about the Good Wizard's ability to protect people from evil scries in case he has all gifteds. Weren't people scried by both in the same night supposed to die? Either I didn't understand something, or there's a contradiction in the rules.

On communication: As I understand it, the wizards and gifteds communicate with each other by sending what they want to say to the Mod (or respective Submod). Can the gifteds/wolves communicate to each other this way, too, or does all communcation among them have to go over their wizards (I mean something like the Hunter saying "Nogrod, please tell the Ranger....", or "Please tell all fellow wolves....", without the Wizards having the power to intervene).

After the Wizard Duel, the wolves learn each other's identity. Do the gifteds do that, too? I ask because usually the seer's identity is unknown to the other gifteds.

Furthermore,

++Modfire (actually, ++strong modfire, i.e., the two voteless days need not be consecutive);

++Lynch last who gets highest vote in case of a tie (with retractable votes that became a mess the last time, but we don't have them here).


Oh, and concerning occupations, I'd like to be an apple farmer. :)

[Macalaure]

Oh, another one:

If the wolves try to kill the Good Wizard at night, will only the evil team learn his identity, or will it be made public in the narration?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

If the Good Wizard has all the gifteds, but loses one gifted due to the Evil Wizard's scry or a wolfkill, assuming his scry isn't a wolf, will the scried person immediately replace the lost gifted (or will the GW only get a chance to regift the following night? I think the former is more fair.), or will he just be protected from the scry that didn't hit him? (I hope it's clear what I mean...)
Yes, the former also looks more fair to me. I thought about it too. Because otherwise, whenever a Gifted was killed, the GW would be with one less minion over one whole day, while the EW doesn't have a "minion-limit" like this, so he can always compensate his loss immediately.

I'm rather confused about the Good Wizard's ability to protect people from evil scries in case he has all gifteds. Weren't people scried by both in the same night supposed to die? Either I didn't understand something, or there's a contradiction in the rules.
That was exactly what we were all talking about, so I think we'd better wait for some official statement from Nogrod ;)

[Thinlómien]

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a contradiction in the rules... ;)

[the phantom]

In the previous game, when both wizards scried the same person, they learnt each other's identity.

In this game, when both wizards scry the same person, s/he dies.
Ah, well there goes that strategy. In the last game I wanted both Wizards to scry me the same night so that the EW would be revealed to the GW, but doing a move like that in this game would simply kill me.

And I agree with my father on this point-
++Modfire (actually, ++strong modfire, i.e., the two voteless days need not be consecutive)
And then there was this-
After the Wizard Duel, the wolves learn each other's identity. Do the gifteds do that, too? I ask because usually the seer's identity is unknown to the other gifteds.
Even if the gifteds are not "told" each other's identities by the Mod, I do not believe there is any rule to stop the GW from sending them all a message telling them "The Seer is..." and so on. Of course if one of them gets ungifted and then the next night turned into a WW the GW will regret his decision, but that's just a risk you have to be willing to take. Plus there are ways to guard against that sort of thing.

[A Little Green]

I see I haven't posted my profession yet. I am a fortune-teller - folklorist - herb-grower - unofficial therapist, advisor and midwife, so most presumably a witch. :p

[Gwathagor]

I see I haven't posted my profession yet. I am a fortune-teller - folklorist - herb-grower - unofficial therapist, advisor and midwife, so most presumably a witch. :p

No satanic rituals? What kind of witch are you? :rolleyes:

Well, if occupations are recommended, then I'll be a highwayman.

[A Little Green]

No satanic rituals? What kind of witch are you? None that you know of, you insolent little pup.

:p

[Gwathagor]

None that you know of, you insolent little pup.

:p

You are calling me little?? That's just plain funny, :cool: not to mention ironic.

[THE Ka]

Even if the gifteds are not "told" each other's identities by the Mod, I do not believe there is any rule to stop the GW from sending them all a message telling them "The Seer is..." and so on. Of course if one of them gets ungifted and then the next night turned into a WW the GW will regret his decision, but that's just a risk you have to be willing to take. Plus there are ways to guard against that sort of thing.


Though I don't find the idea of the GW having such an ability, I do find the risk they'll encounter if they pick their gifted too late a rather fair balance. At first I was a bit perturbed that it would cause the game to fraction into too many subgroups, the same as with the EW ability.

None that you know of, you insolent little pup.

Hee hee. ;):)

So I'm safe to guess that means people care only then?
What about all of the needy and feral furry children?

~ Think of the dogs! Ka

[Nogrod]

I just skimmed through the latest. I'm in Romania and will only be able to read and post haphazardly for a week. :(

I think there has been one misunderstanding - even if I now think the correct understanding also has a flaw.

The idea of the GW being able to "protect" someone from scrying if she had her roster full and didn't wish to try and scry for the finding of the EW was that she would be able to protect one of her own minions from the EW's scry. Then technically she isn't so much scrying her (the gifted has been scried already) but kind of counterscrying eg. not allowing the EW to scry that gifted that Night.

But thinking this forwards raises a problem as well to the GW, for this surely works for the EW as well as the one who could not be scried but didn't die surely is now a gifted known to be one to the EW.

Maybe that's not something the GW would like to do in the first place as she has a lot of work trying to find the EW by her scries. Clearly with a roster full the GW can go on "identity-scrying" in any case.

Then if both wizards scry the same person that one person dies having received too much magic the same Night.

Also I'd say there will be no open proclamation that the EW has learned the identity of the GW - or vice versa. That's Night-bussiness known only those who may know it.

About communication also one point. If the wizard gives away the identities of one or other gifteds/wolves to one or more others, it's her decision. After two or more know of each other they can communicate between themselves straight. But so long as the identities are not revealed by the wizard on purpose there is no such possibility. To me this would sound fair and straightforward. What do you think?

I try to come back to you sooner rather than later but I can't guarantee anything as the schedual here is quite tight.

Nice to see you The Ka to comfirm and sad to see you Valier not to do that...

[Thinlómien]

About communication also one point. If the wizard gives away the identities of one or other gifteds/wolves to one or more others, it's her decision. After two or more know of each other they can communicate between themselves straight. But so long as the identities are not revealed by the wizard on purpose there is no such possibility. To me this would sound fair and straightforward. What do you think?
Good, but I'd rather have it so that the wizard can reveal her minions' identities to each other, but that does not automatically give them the right to PM with each other, the wizard has to grant that right also.

[the phantom]

I think it is indeed a good idea to allow gifteds who have been revealed to each other to communicate, and I also agree with Lommy that this should not be automatic but an ability granted by the Wizard. Hmm... I can think of some interesting things that could develop as a result of this.

[Roa_Aoife]

The reason that the EW and the GW scrying the same person results in a death rather than a reveal is because in the last game, the above scenario happened on Night One. LMP thought that the first day was WAAAAAY too early for everything to be over, and so scratched the whole plan, leaving one very confused and, well, boastful innocent who got lynched on the first day. In the discussion afterwards, it was agreed that this method of reveal was too problematic. So instead, the innocent scried by both wizards dies. Wizards can still determine each other's identity by scrying the other wizard, attacking them via wolf or hunter, getting them lynched, or having the seer dream of them. That's plenty right there.

I don't believe the GW should be able to protect his own gifted from the EW's scrying, and here's why: If a gifted loses his giftedness, he does NOT change sides. He's still a good guy, and the chances of him becoming a wolf on the following night are slim to none, since both wizard's scrying the same person will kill him, or the EW will simply take him out. However, if a wolf is scried, he immediately changes sides to the good team, and any and all information he knows goes to the good team as well. The EW is actually at greater risk from the wolves being scried than the GW is from losing gifted. To take away even more risk of that would be giving too much of an advantage to the good team.

Also, the wizards should have complete control of the communication for their respective teams. Information control is the greatest asset each wizard has for enacting strategies.

Now, I just want to check on the order of events for each night, so here's what I think:

1. Wizards scry and get that information
2. Ranger protects, Hunter hunts, and Seer dreams
3. Wolves attack

Obviously it won't happen that way, well, ever. But for the purposes of determining what happens when, I think it's important to lay this out. It's important that the wizard's know what's going to happen every night at the start, at least as far as their own team is concerned. That way each wizard can best utilize their own team to it's fullest extent. I believe the GW's biggest issue was the passing of information that crippled the good team the most.

[mormegil]

Any approximate on starting dates?

[Gwathagor]

Hey, um, this is going to make me really look stupid, but...what exactly do the ranger and hunter do?
:(:(:(

[Roa_Aoife]

Don't worry about it, Gwath. :)

The ranger picks one person a night to protect. If the wolves attack that person, there is no kill.

The hunter also picks one person a night to hunt. If the wolves kill the hunter, that person dies also.

It should also be noted that the hunter has a long and proud history of killing the seer. :p

[Gwathagor]

Ah, thanks. I must have missed that day of class in Werewolf 101.

[McCaber]

Well, if occupations are recommended, then I'll be a highwayman.
So my brother's a crook, eh? Awesome. My life just got a lot more exciting.

[Nerwen]

Now, there's one thing I want to clear up. Exactly what relation am I to Volo? Is this decided? Is he my son, or the cat? Or both (meaning one of us is crazy), or neither?

[Gwathagor]

So my brother's a crook, eh? Awesome. My life just got a lot more exciting.


"Crook" is indelicate. :cool:

[McCaber]

"Crook" is indelicate. :cool:
I'm supposed to be indelicate, I'm your little brother. But I guess I'll be a henchman then.

[Volo]

Now, there's one thing I want to clear up. Exactly what relation am I to Volo? Is this decided? Is he my son, or the cat? Or both (meaning one of us is crazy), or neither?

Actually, I'm your grandfather. :rolleyes:

[Roa_Aoife]

This is the family chart....

[Roa_Aoife]

This town is shaping up to be a matriarchy. I want to be a part that massive conglomeration, too. Rikae, will you be my sister? *big puppy eyes* Please?

We can make up a story about how we were always so close despite you being the tom boy and me being the nerd, and we decided to travel the world together, and ultimately settled in this little town, where we married two men who apparently don't have jobs..... :D

[Aganzir]

Actually, I'm your grandfather. :rolleyes:
You're Nog, Nerwen and Lalaith's father, aren't you?

[Volo]

You're Nog, Nerwen and Lalaith's father, aren't you?

The way I understand, Nog is Nerwen and Lalaith's father (your greatgrandfather. Or that's from his chart on page 3 which I really liked. If that is not the case, I'm quite confused.

[Aganzir]

The way I understand, Nog is Nerwen and Lalaith's father (your greatgrandfather. Or that's from his chart on page 3 which I really liked. If that is not the case, I'm quite confused.
I think it was changed to Nog being their brother.

[Volo]

I think it was changed to Nog being their brother.

Oukei, so in that case I'm his grandfather.

[Nogrod]

Any approximate on starting dates?The approximate I have talked of earlier was May 30th to 31st - beginning with a Night phase. So that makes it something like ten days from now.

I'll be home late Sunday-evening and will start drawing things together in the beginning of next week. We have now something like 24 players. We'd do well with a couple more even if the game can be played fine with this number of players. But if you have someone in mind please call them to join. I will do some calling next week if the number of players has stayed the same as I get home from my trip.

I'll look at the family trees as well then.


I do agree with many here that the wizard's minions should need a license from their wizard to PM together. Also I see Roa's argument on the GW not being able to "scry-protect" her gifteds quite persuasive.

Keep on bringing up any issues that come to mind and commenting on those already discussed. I'll be working out the more detailed rules next week so until then all points will be considered. :)

[Gwathagor]

I eagerly await the formalized rules, when all shall be made clear and order created out of the chaos.
:)

[THE Ka]

Oukei, so in that case I'm his grandfather.

I thought you were a ca- I mean, a dog? Or has your sudden canine transformation reversed?:p

Anyways, I'm still rather confused. If Volo is Nogrod's grandfather, then Roa's children would be our aunts and uncle from before or now our cousins (or by hobbit standards, possibly)?
Though, I think Nogrod will be able to clear up his relation in another family tree. Hopefully.

Nice to see you The Ka to comfirm

Awh, well, I couldn't leave Aganzir sisterless.

It should also be noted that the hunter has a long and proud history of killing the seer.


I'm actually rather curious how that is going to work out in this game, say, if the EW finds the seer before our hunter does, etc.

I'm going to have to agree with Roa on the abilities of the GW. It doesn't leave much unpredictibility to the game if either way a gifted or a wolf has a greater chance of automatically changing sides. We'd still lose wolves and gifteds, but the ordos would win with a greater advantage by majority in numbers alone. I know, they're "supposed" to win, but still... Think of the wolves too...

~Ka

[Roa_Aoife]

Okay, so if Rikae and I are sisters, and Nogrod is the bother of Lalaith and Nerwen, and Volo is their father, then the only family NOT connected to everyone else is Morm and Celuien and their children, Gwathagor and McCaber.

You might want to find a way to connect, there. Outsiders get lynched first.;) Just looking at my corrected chart, it would be easiest if Morm or Celuien was related to Cailin.

Also, who here is still considered a child or teenager? If I'm going to be a school teacher, then I want to know who my students are.

[Gwathagor]

You might want to find a way to connect, there. Outsiders get lynched first.;) Just looking at my corrected chart, it would be easiest if Morm or Celuien was related to Cailin.

:( Yeah, sounds like we'd better figure something out.

[Diamond18]

Also, who here is still considered a child or teenager? If I'm going to be a school teacher, then I want to know who my students are.

I'm phantom's little sister. As in not yet old enough to have a boyfriend/husband/job. I think I'm a pre-teen.

Yeah, that sounds good.

So I guess you're my teacher and aunt.

This is one complicated family tree.

[Aganzir]

Also, who here is still considered a child or teenager? If I'm going to be a school teacher, then I want to know who my students are.
I'm 15, or maybe a year or two younger. I attend your classes when I don't have any better things to do.

[THE Ka]

:( Yeah, sounds like we'd better figure something out.

Just figure it the hobbit way, you're distant cousins from Bree, twice removed on our great-grandfather's mother's aunt's side. It's such a bloody confusing relation that you were just assimulated into the immediate family as a strength in numbers motto to get back at those Proudfeet... :p

I'm going to let Lalaith take liberties with my age, since I don't want to make an age insult of a lady. ;) (If you really want, I'm completely fine with anything that has coherent speaking and up, meaning, from about five years. Don't worry about working age, I delibertly picked a job that a child could easily do).

~ Ka

[Roa_Aoife]

Okay, here's my latest chart update for all the family connections, with status as child, adult, and elder labeled for those that I know for certain. (I assumed that Kath and Brinn were adults since they were already life partners.)

[Nogrod]

then the only family NOT connected to everyone else is Morm and Celuien and their children, Gwathagor and McCaber.But if we do as I suggested earlier and into which morm indirectly agreed ("I'll be where I'm needed") then he should be my brother and also Volo's adult child. In that way we have two "grand families" approximately the same size in the vilage which I think is good.

About the starting date. Rikae and Mac wished the game would start on June 1st. And now as I look at my last days at school I'm bending to think likewise myself.

So if no one has anything against it we might make a deal that the game begins on June the 1st at 11PM GMT with a Night phase.

All those who have announced their willingness to be a wizard to me should make some considerations as to who to pick as their first scries. I will make a lottery on wizards about one or two days before the game starts so that the wizards can get ready and if they send me their lists of choises well beforehand I can then PM both them and their minions when the game begins so as to maximise the time on Night1.

[Volo]

Okay, here's my latest chart update for all the family connections, with status as child, adult, and elder labeled for those that I know for certain. (I assumed that Kath and Brinn were adults since they were already life partners.)
Umm... No. I'm Noggie, Nerwen and Lalaith's grandfather, not father.

[Roa_Aoife]

Umm... No. I'm Noggie, Nerwen and Lalaith's grandfather, not father.

No offense, but why?

[Eönwë]

Can I join in this?

[THE Ka]

But if we do as I suggested earlier and into which morm indirectly agreed ("I'll be where I'm needed") then he should be my brother and also Volo's adult child. In that way we have two "grand families" approximately the same size in the vilage which I think is good.

That would really work out to keeping the families all relative. Might make for a rather tight household (assuming that, being a 'traditional' village we live with our parents homes or with our spouses' parents, etc for economic and family reasons), but oh well it'll lead to a rather 'cabbin fever' game of WW.


Umm... No. I'm Noggie, Nerwen and Lalaith's grandfather, not father.

Okay, then who's the missing link? ;)

~ Ka

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, here's my latest chart update for all the family connections, with status as child, adult, and elder labeled for those that I know for certain. (I assumed that Kath and Brinn were adults since they were already life partners.)
Is Brinn actually married? And if so, then she probably would be the "elder sister" of us three, which would remove the polarity two sisters vs. one brother unless I were let's say the youngest (well not that I care, it was their idea, not mine). But if she is not, then don't forget I am dating Sally... so I don't know from what time you label people as "adult", in any case don't forget I have a herd to care of; even a teenager can do that, however still I think then at least one of us, phantom or me, should be either at least 20, or both of us being at least around 18. Personally I think 18 or so would be the optimal age for me.

Okay, then who's the missing link? ;)
Australopithecus.

[Volo]

No offense, but why?I guess I can't give a better answer than "why not?". Originally because Noggie was in the way of me being the father.

Okay, then who's the missing link? ;)
Probably this person (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/member.php?u=6505). How would I know... :rolleyes: Maybe a great big nasty wolf...

[Lhunardawen]

Is Brinn actually married? And if so, then she probably would be the "elder sister" of us three, which would remove the polarity two sisters vs. one brother unless I were let's say the youngest (well not that I care, it was their idea, not mine). But if she is not, then don't forget I am dating Sally... so I don't know from what time you label people as "adult", in any case don't forget I have a herd to care of; even a teenager can do that, however still I think then at least one of us, phantom or me, should be either at least 20, or both of us being at least around 18. Personally I think 18 or so would be the optimal age for me.
the phantom and I are supposedly engaged, so I guess you should be younger than him.

Australopithecus.
Don't forget the italics! :p

[Mithalwen]

I am expecting this to be a RPG of epic length .... given that I think we have had games significantly shorter than this thread ;)

[Lalaith]

I will be ready to play on June 1st, but I'm going away tomorrow and will in all probability be internetless until the following Saturday. Don't worry if I seem to have disappeared.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

For me: The earlier, the better. Like I said before, it is going right through my exams anyway, so it will be fun no doubt; oh, stress, how I love thee. :D And then, as soon as my exams end, I am leaving. So 1st June is perfect.

[Roa_Aoife]

Weren't Gwath and McCaber trying to date Aganzir? In that case, I don't think it would be a good idea for Morm to be Nogrod's brother... unless we're that kind of village.

Kitanna is my baby!!!!! (only the youngest, not an actual baby)

I'm going to assume Legate and sally are (older) teenagers, like Agan and Diamond, and so children for the purposes of my chart.

I expect to see you in class, young man! You can help Phantom after you're done with your homework.

[Aganzir]

Weren't Gwath and McCaber trying to date Aganzir? In that case, I don't think it would be a good idea for Morm to be Nogrod's brother... unless we're that kind of village.
And another cousin of mine is my ex. ;)

It might prove a hard task to fix the family relations so that all kind of incest is avoided, and at least to me it doesn't really matter anyway. After all, I'm the daughter of the black sheep.

[the phantom]

unless we're that kind of village
Hey now, it's a small village, so there aren't that many options outside of the family. When you give the kids the option of "You can date your cousin or no one at all" you figure eventually they'll rationalize the cousin option.

I'm just glad I didn't have to do that. At least I don't think I did. *checks family chart* Nope, I'm safe.

[Brinniel]

Is Brinn actually married? And if so, then she probably would be the "elder sister" of us three, which would remove the polarity two sisters vs. one brother unless I were let's say the youngest (well not that I care, it was their idea, not mine). But if she is not, then don't forget I am dating Sally... so I don't know from what time you label people as "adult", in any case don't forget I have a herd to care of; even a teenager can do that, however still I think then at least one of us, phantom or me, should be either at least 20, or both of us being at least around 18. Personally I think 18 or so would be the optimal age for me.

Nah, we're not actually married...but we do act like a married couple. :p Anyways, I don't imagine myself to be very old...even if married, people do get married at a young age. I mentioned it before but I think Kath and me should probably be around our RL ages...so something like 19-21. Kitanna's my twin so she's whatever age I end up being. Legate, you were originally our older brother...but have you changed your mind and decided to be younger? Either way works for me. Though I must admit, I found the idea that a 15-year-old Aganzir used to date a 20-something Legate rather amusing. :D

It might prove a hard task to fix the family relations so that all kind of incest is avoided, and at least to me it doesn't really matter anyway. After all, I'm the daughter of the black sheep.
Well, we could all just pretend we're from Alabama where apparently incestuous marriages are legal (http://www.dumblaws.com/law/1556). ;)

[Gwathagor]

Weren't Gwath and McCaber trying to date Aganzir? In that case, I don't think it would be a good idea for Morm to be Nogrod's brother... unless we're that kind of village.

Oh yeeeaaah. :smokin:

[Aganzir]

Though I must admit, I found the idea that a 15-year-old Aganzir used to date a 20-something Legate rather amusing.
Me too. :D

Well, we could all just pretend we're from Alabama where apparently incestuous marriages are legal (http://www.dumblaws.com/law/1556).
I think marrying one's cousin is legal even in Finland. ;)

Can I join in this?
I suppose you can. :D Now you should just pick yourself an occupation and get some family members if you wish. Also it might be useful to skim through this thread, though complete rules will probably be posted somewhere before the game starts.

[Roa_Aoife]

Okay, my new, improved, corrected, and waaaaaaaay too complicated family chart. (Volo, I left in the father position because I didn't feel like finagling another row into there.)

[THE Ka]

Hey now, it's a small village, so there aren't that many options outside of the family.

Well, we always could go raiding into another village and kidnap some husbands. Y'know, pillaging, the world's original Club Med.

... I think I'll take my pack of feral canines out and hunt down a mate instead.

Maybe a great big nasty wolf...

I'm cool with that ancestry, and Lucy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_(Australopithecus)).

I still have no clue what my age should be, but I'm stuck with either nine or some older age.

So, to make it easy, I've forgotten my age and no one seems to remember my birthday. Makes things easier to manage I guess. I just, am. There. :p

~ Ka

[Gwathagor]

I realize that you probably don't want to change this on the chart, Roa, but just so everyone knows, I am not a child. I am at least 20. A child-highwayman would be way too bizarre as well a dreadful puzzle for the therapists.

EDIT: Oh...perhaps "child" is meant as a genealogical label rather than a description of age.

[Roa_Aoife]

Sorry, Gwath, by child I mean 18 or younger. You know, school age. I'll change it eventually, but first I'll wait to see if there are any other changes to make.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Anyways, I don't imagine myself to be very old...even if married, people do get married at a young age. I mentioned it before but I think Kath and me should probably be around our RL ages...so something like 19-21. Kitanna's my twin so she's whatever age I end up being. Legate, you were originally our older brother...but have you changed your mind and decided to be younger?

I did not! That was actually Roa who brought that up, for reasons unknown to me. I have no problem with being eventually a younger brother, though. Seemingly, given that Aganzir-thing and also Sally, of whom I have no idea how old she is (or I thought between 15 and 20 but nowadays I am not sure of anything anymore), I shouldn't be 20 probably. I said 18 or such. 15 is maybe too little. But whatever. Just the heck tell me how old the other people who concern me are and I can decide whichever way.

Speaking of that, people, I think we are going to have enough with who's whose relative in which way to make it the topic of the game without any useless werewolves, the more Wizards. I can just see someone posting "And as I said, I suspect my cousin..." and others asking unisono: "Erm, WHICH cousin?"

I already pity the narration-writer as well :D

[satansaloser2005]

Hmmmm. I figured I was a bit older....then again, since I am my Lommy mommy's apprentice, it makes sense. Either way works for me. Whatever's in the best interest of my darling Legate.

[Lhunardawen]

Hey now, it's a small village, so there aren't that many options outside of the family. When you give the kids the option of "You can date your cousin or no one at all" you figure eventually they'll rationalize the cousin option.
And this would make healing such a lucrative occupation in this village - I can only imagine what genetic diseases people could be having here. Nerwen and I are going to be sooo rich. :D

I'm just glad I didn't have to do that. At least I don't think I did. *checks family chart* Nope, I'm safe.
I made sure we're safe, phantom dear. ;)

Speaking of that, people, I think we are going to have enough with who's whose relative in which way to make it the topic of the game without any useless werewolves, the more Wizards. I can just see someone posting "And as I said, I suspect my cousin..." and others asking unisono: "Erm, WHICH cousin?"
Oh, yes, of course, we'll always have to refer to others by their names.

I already pity the narration-writer as well
Uh-huh. Poor Noggie. :D

[Lalaith]

Right, so my lovely daughter Aganzir now has both of her dashing cousins in love with her, the little minx. You go, girl.

As for The Ka, my second daughter....now my original idea was that I returned to the village some years ago, with one child in tow, and opened my chocolate shop. I was a very young mother, ahem, so it would be perfectly fine for Aganzir to now be in her mid/late teens, ie old enough to date.
If Ka wishes to be somewhat younger, perhaps her birth occurred *after* my return to the village. How she came into the world, I am not prepared to say. I am a black sheep, after all, and we black sheep keep our own counsel. Ka, are you ok with being fatherless?

[THE Ka]

Right, so my lovely daughter Aganzir now has both of her dashing cousins in love with her, the little minx. You go, girl.

As for The Ka, my second daughter....now my original idea was that I returned to the village some years ago, with one child in tow, and opened my chocolate shop. I was a very young mother, ahem, so it would be perfectly fine for Aganzir to now be in her mid/late teens, ie old enough to date.
If Ka wishes to be somewhat younger, perhaps her birth occurred *after* my return to the village. How she came into the world, I am not prepared to say. I am a black sheep, after all, and we black sheep keep our own counsel. Ka, are you ok with being fatherless?

Hee hee, oh of course I am fine with that.:D

Quite to tell the truth that storyline is close to how my actual existance is, so I should have good enough practice here. ;)

Though, never have been the younger sibling, hmm I should probably go ask my brother for some tips and tricks.

Aganzir, I promise to be the archetypal annoying-around-boyfriend-younger-sibling. It will be hard, but I'll try my best to be protectively annoying and suddenly concerned. :p

Yay, to be a kid again. My inner child thanks you Lalaith.


Oh, btw, Lalaith, out of all of homeless dogs that periodically rome the village I've adopted a playful and large hound named Bavo. Can I keep him? I promise to care for him and teach him to protect the chocolate... and us!

~ Ka

[Nerwen]

And this would make healing such a lucrative occupation in this village - I can only imagine what genetic diseases people could be having here. Nerwen and I are going to be sooo rich. :D

So... exactly what services are we offering the afflicted villagers? Genetic counselling? Stem cell therapy?

Oh, and I've just realised– there's a traditional role missing in this community: the Village Idiot. It stands to reason we'd have one. Any volunteers?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

*slides in and plops down*

Hey guys, didja miss me? :)

[Aganzir]

Right, so my lovely daughter Aganzir now has both of her dashing cousins in love with her, the little minx. You go, girl.
:cool:

Aganzir, I promise to be the archetypal annoying-around-boyfriend-younger-sibling. It will be hard, but I'll try my best to be protectively annoying and suddenly concerned.
Thank you. :) I'm grateful that you're willing to make such an effort, and in turn I will do my best to show a good example to you.

*slides in and plops down*

Hey guys, didja miss me?
Yes - it's already a while since I last got to threaten you with a vote. ;)

[Lhunardawen]

So... exactly what services are we offering the afflicted villagers? Genetic counselling? Stem cell therapy?
Both, and more! We're well-rounded healers.

*whispers* Besides, they all don't know anything. ;)

Oh, and I've just realised– there's a traditional role missing in this community: the Village Idiot. It stands to reason we'd have one. Any volunteers?
Please tell me not to quit my job...tell me not to quit my job... :D

Welcome back, Shasta! :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

*slides in and plops down*

Hey guys, didja miss me?

Oh look, whom do we have here! :eek: Welcome back, Shasta! :)

As for both you and Nerwen: You picked a good time to post, Shasta. While looking at your two posts, it really looks like a question and immediate response :D

[Nogrod]

Home sweet home!

Okay. I'm going back the thread and see what's happened while I've been away.

I try to produce the "advanced rules" today. They will be open to discussion to be sure but we need some principles laid out first. I'll also try to update all these relations and occupations as well. Just point to me any mistakes I will make... :)

And welcome Eonwë and Shasta. Feel free to join a family!

[Nogrod]

Advanced rules concerning the wolves & the gifteds are posted in the game thread.

Additional rules for the wizards - and all interested in them - will follow later today.

[Thinlómien]

The GW knows who is the seer and can decide whom the ranger protects? I'm having a mental debate on whether this will work or not...

[Nogrod]

The GW knows who is the seer and can decide whom the ranger protects? I'm having a mental debate on whether this will work or not...If I'm correct that was the way it was the last time as well.

Anyway the GW must have a veto over the choices of her gifteds as she will know things the minions might not know.

And even if the GW decided the ranger should protect the seer the ranger can't do it two Nights in a row... Or did I miss the target of your mental debate? :)

PS: A warm welcome to Durelin! Nice to see you in the game!

[Durelin]

Thanks Nogrod!

Would someone like to adopt me into their family? I really could never decide on a relationship...about all I can come up with at the moment is being someone's pet cat if you'll take that. If this has wizards, then I assume there are witches, who might be in need of a clever feline companion? :p