Tol-in-Gaurhoth LII: Star Crossed II: Together for Eternity [Archive] - Page 2

Groin Redbeard

10-29-2008, 09:49 AM

Well, I came here to find a man, and I still aim to do so - I can work it in around WW hunting, after all. I'm going to be 30 soon, and I'm unmarried! Horrors!
(Don't modkill me, Di, I'm not roleplaying :p)

Macalaure is evil. I think this for three reasons:

1) He pops in early on day 1 bursting with overconfidence that he knows exactly how this game will go down - ie, just like the last. It's not that he's discussing game dynamics - it's the fact that what he's saying could only possibly be useful to confuse ordos and throw other baddies off his trail. I'm fairly sure this game will have some new twist thrown in, myself.
Over confidence? It looked like he was just being plain old silly if you ask me. Also, I think it strange that you accused him on your first post, Rikae, and stuck with it throughout the game (especially when people started jumping on your bandwagon). Though I'm a little confused why you voted for Aganzir in the end.

2) Di wouldn't make both Mac and I ordos. Ergo, he has a role, and, judging by point #1, that role is an evil one.
I realize this point doesn't do anyone any good until I'm dead, but that shouldn't take long when Mac is evil. This was pretty flimsy accusation to go on.

3) After the last game, I swore to do my utmost to get him lynched on day one. This joke lightens the accusation on your part so that it looks like you're making a joke, for the most part, about accusing Mac. Later on in the game you express your seriousness on the matter (perhaps seeing that people are beginning to jump on the bandwagon).

Over all this looks like very wolvish behaviour, and this is just Rikae's first post.

A Little Green

10-29-2008, 09:52 AM

it just struck me as odd not that the votes came that close to deadline, but that they introduced new candidates so close to deadline. Mostly it's the fact that it could have easily turned into a last-minute bandwagon and I hate those (for the most part). I'm sorry, I should have made that a bit more clear.Honey, I still don't get the logic - I can't see how exactly introducing new voting candidates close to the deadline results in an increased possibility of a last-minute bandwagon. I think it gets pretty awful if people vote only for ones someone else has voted as well. That is what causes bandwagons, not bringing new candidates in.

About the Night's kills - it seems obvious that Lal was killed because her death gives practically no traces and because she wasn't being suspected at all. Did anyone even suspect her at any point? As for Legate, I consider it possible that the lovers thought he was a rival lover. I don't believe he was assumed to be a gifted; or at least to my eyes he did not give any gifted vibes whatsoever.

I don't know what to think about the fact that only two people died. As has been said, it's probably either only two lover teams (which would be kind of unfair) or more than two couples who accidentally picked the same victim. There is yet another possibility, which is that we have a ranger and s/he managed to protect last Night but we just weren't informed about it... which would be a bit too cruel of Di. I don't think that's the case, but I felt the need to point out the possibility.

I'll be back with more stuff.

EDIT: x-ed with Groin

A Little Green

10-29-2008, 10:03 AM

Okay, I seem to have some trouble with time as I came home today around three hours leter than I had planned and my evening's timetables are now thoroughly messed up.. I don't know how much I'll be able to play still toDay, but I'll at least get here to vote and so. Sorry.

I hope to be back.

Rikae

10-29-2008, 10:20 AM

Just thought I'd pop in to say I'm working on a midterm that's due tomorrow, so I won't be able to contribute much, but I am following the discussion.
Groin, go read what I already said about that post, I see no need to say anything else. *shrug*
I do find myself wondering if the fact that no one has paid any attention to my increasing number of lovers theory means I've stumbled on the truth and those who know it are afraid to tip me off, assuming I know it too - but I suppose more likely you all just think I'm loony.

EDIT: Ok, I do have something (minor) to contribute - Greenie's post looks a bit too much like a baddie hiding in the open (i.e., telling the truth about their strategy). Can't quite put my finger on it, but that's the impression I got.

Brinniel

10-29-2008, 10:39 AM

An awful lot of the attention he was getting seemed to run along the lines of "Legate is smart and wise and all-good and all-knowing and we should bow down and worship him in grovelling admiration." as far as I could see.
Yet he managed to gather enough suspicion to receive two votes...

Aganzir

10-29-2008, 10:51 AM

Guilty

Groin. It's possible he will leave this list after posting more, but for now he's guilty. He treated Legate and me much more differently than was necessary which looked like he didn't really care what he said - what was important was to flatter someone so as to get an ally, suspect someone else.

Gollum. This guy really bothers me. On day 1 Lommy said I was jumpy (because she had misinterpreted my comment). Then Gollum comes, says he finds it hard to trust Lommy and Legate after last game, flatters Legate a bit and says I look jumpy. I asked him for reasons, but I had to ask twice before I got any response. Instead of replying to me right away, he took one sentence of mine out of context (when I complained about how Groin had treated me) and just noted my posts hadn't helped him. Of course my posts wouldn't be very helpful if people just kept ignoring them and the things I ask in them!
Reasons he found me jumpy:
You post often, make long posts, were swift to accuse and are quick to defend yourself. You're also out for lots blood and seem very excited about the game (not that blame you). That is my idea of jumpy.
Everything I had done. I still have no idea where that excited came from, and I'm still waiting for a response.
In his next post, he says:
I don't quite understand why Rikae given those two votes. Perhaps I was not paying attention.
I don't know about others, but me that "perhaps I was not paying attention" reminds of a (newbie) wolf who wants to defend someone a bit but while writing the post realises that he has a chance to start suspecting this someone who isn't on his team, so the message kind of changes on the way. For already in his next post he's suddenly slightly wary of Rikae because of her reasons not to trust Mac. And me because I'm too excited. And Lommy because she always bears watching. He thought about voting for me, but didn't have any reasons, and then changed his mind and put Lommy in the lead because "he couldn't bring himself to trust her." Funny that he had agreed on me with Lommy, and his actual reason for voting her was that he couldn't trust her because she had been a wolf in the last game. So yeah, so much for Gollum.

sally. I'll be watching her. Although Rikae or someone said rhetorical questions are a part of her style, I still find them suspicious and I can't help it. I think she overdid her suspicions on Gwath & Rikae's votes a bit. Something in the style makes it look like she intentionally tried to make them look more serious things than they really were. Because of that she planned to vote either of them, more likely Rikae, but thought Lommy was acting strangely, too. Later decided not to create a tie and voted for Lommy.
It's always hard to read sally this early in the game, but right now she doesn't sit right with me.

Fea. I just don't like it how keen she was on discussing the roles. To me it seems a waste of time, and personally I can't understand why anybody with good intents would want to do it since in lack of any certain information it's only guessing and therefore rather useless. I don't see what sense there is in having to repeat that we don't know anything. I fail to see how post #40 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=571057&postcount=40) works as a metaphor for this game. I find it worrying that she would (even hypothetically) suggest forcing discussion about a specific, and in my opinion unnecessary, topic.
She admitted that we would not get facts from role discussion, but we might have ended up with a better idea of possibilities. But what does it matter if we have possibilities or not? Although Fea said it might have been possible to get someone to slip something, to me it looks more like trying to keep the discussion in the safe area.

Mac. Mostly for the same reasons as yesterday. His first post today (like sally's) has the air of trying to make things look bigger than they really are, though. I don't think Eomer was that bad.

Rikae. Mostly for the same reasons as yesterday. She has felt much more innocent today, though. I will try to view Mac and Rikae a bit more objectively from now on and not to get stuck in the thought that they're baddies since I realised that I suspect them almost always, regardless of my role, or theirs.

Innocent
Kitanna. Nothing alarming.
Brinn. Looks like normal innocent Brinn, at least thus far.
Shasta. Despite voting for me, I think he looks innocent and sincere.

Neither
Nogrod
Gwath
McCaber
Greenie
Eönwë
Eomer

edit: xed with two Greenies, Rikae & Brinn

Rikae

10-29-2008, 11:14 AM

Yet he managed to gather enough suspicion to receive two votes...
That's right... silly me. :rolleyes: I suppose that's good enough reason to assume he may have been suspected as a rival baddie (for some reason, he didn't seem especially suspected to me).

Nogrod

10-29-2008, 11:14 AM

Blaah, what a day... but I'm back home now and have some time to play.

I'm not quite sure I believe myself uttering these words: luckily there is only 1½ pages of posting toDay... but after I have read them I'm probably going to complain about there being too little input... :rolleyes:

Just my first impression on the kills even if I know you guys have already worked this out in some way.

Lalaith was a good kill as she was both very-innocent looking and very sharp: so both trusted and dangerous.

Legate was a good kill because he is a vocal player whom baddies would rather not have around in the later stages of the game and who could be dangerous to thewm. With him I'd even think a look back on his relations on Day1 might be worthwhile.

The two kills kind of strengthens my belief in there being at least two competing teams here because the mentality of the team picking Legate looks pretty different from the mentality of the team picking Lalaith.

Okay. I'm into reading now but will be back after a while.

Aganzir

10-29-2008, 11:29 AM

That's right... silly me. :rolleyes: I suppose that's good enough reason to assume he may have been suspected as a rival baddie (for some reason, he didn't seem especially suspected to me).
Actually, I don't think he was suspected that much. Eönwë said his vote was random whereas Lalaith thought he was weird and wanted to know what he was up to. He was generally considered quite innocent.

As for Eönwë, I'd really like to hear more from him, not just random comments and vote counts. Of us alive, he has the second most posts and I haven't been able to form an opinion of him at all.

Macalaure

10-29-2008, 11:40 AM

I don't understand what Groin's point was with analysing Rikae's first post. It was his only post today so far, and he didn't find anything more worthwhile to contribute?
Over all this looks like very wolvish behaviour, and this is just Rikae's first post.
This either means we're going to see analysis of Rikae's other posts, too, or it's an extremely wolvish comment since it maliciously exaggerates his actual points.

Maybe Groin just hasn't yet entirely caught up with what's happening.

I don't like the way Nogrod labeled the kills "good". They were only good for the wolves, not the innocents, and the fact that "good" is the first thing Nogrod was able to think in regards to the kills appears like a Freudian wolf-slip. I mean, sure, that is done not unfrequently by others, but the way Nogrod emphasised it is strange. Then again, wouldn't a wolf be extra-careful not to formulate it this way?
The two kills kind of strengthens my belief in there being at least two competing teams here because the mentality of the team picking Legate looks pretty different from the mentality of the team picking Lalaith.
I'm terribly sorry, but this does sound like a wolf whose mind is a bit too much taken by the implications of an apparently different strategy of the opposing team on the thread.

McCaber

10-29-2008, 11:42 AM

So I still really don't have a lot to say. I'm getting sort of an innocent reading from Aganzir. She's posted a lot and hasn't contradicted herself much from what I saw. She's been argumentive but everyone is in werewolves. Verdict: almost not guilty.

And that's the first half of the day.

EDIT: crossed with Mac

Nogrod

10-29-2008, 12:25 PM

Oh Mac, you're making me feel like back at home after a few games in some strange land of paranoia where you weren't after me all the time... :rolleyes:

On a bit more serious note, this thing where you relate to my thoughts of there being a different mindset with those who killed Lalaith vs. those who killed Legate:I'm terribly sorry, but this does sound like a wolf whose mind is a bit too much taken by the implications of an apparently different strategy of the opposing team on the thread.I will only say this. Winning a game would never be so important to me that I would as a werewolf/-penquin/-rhinoceros... kill during the Night someone I like to play with - if there are other choices (the very last Nights of a game might be different). You know it Mac as all those who have played with me.

So what to make of your try-out? Just back to normal "Mac will suspect Nogrod whatever the posting" or trying to see whether you could turn this into a convenient lynch-option?

But I think you raise an important point to the fore.

I have been thinking about Sally - and what Mac said links to my thoughts on Sally.

I already felt yesterDay a bit uneasy with Sally's kind of - how should one describe it - conscious, or situation-oriented posting. What I mean is that yes there was that normallish Sally-banter and the jokes and all but somehow it felt she was more conscious of the situation we had in hand than she normally is. Or at least she doesn't normally show it.

Then came this: I would think, though, that lovers (if there are more than one team) would want to get rid of their competition first (because then they'd be safe during the NightsNow defining the wolves viewpoint as "being safe" looks something that just doesn't fit my general impression of what an innocent Sally would think about - or speculate about. For it sure is true that if we have different teams against each other the lovers are scared to death every Night for their rivals (I've been a baddie in that kind of game long ago and it was heart-stopping!). The problem is, did Sally just think of that and decided to use the word "safe" (which really nails down the thing those baddies are longing for) or does she actually feel that way now?

This is a question of the way one plays (so it's not like one way is better or more intelligent than the other - going deep into speculation about how the baddies would act may derange one's thinking a lot as well). You know I do it, Lommy does it, all those who remember Roa probably remember also her insistence in that being the most effective approach... But Sally hasn't belonged to that club of players as yet and I'm afraid I have to say her few posts do look a bit bothering to me, it feels like something behind the appearance is shining through her posting.

But I'm not sure if she's my best candidate toDay. I just decided to start with her as my suspicions on her are intertwined with Mac's points.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

10-29-2008, 12:26 PM

I'm slightly concerned about the actions of the village so far. So many people are seeing malice in all corners.

We don't even know what we're looking for yet. Some comments, like Nogrod's recent speculation about different evil team strategies, and Macalaure's riposte, are immediately sensible to me, because they relate to the deduction of who our killers could be. How so? Because they take the facts, and they work around them. Our facts are the deaths of Legate and Lalaith.

Other comments, such as "So and so suspected me because of this, it's really creepy!" are based on absolutely nothing. Every instance of Werewolf dialogue can be interpreted in such a way that that it looks evil. It's all well and good normally, but we don't even know what resides in this village yet.

It's interesting how many people have easily accepted that Legate's enemies thought him a lover, while Lalaith's obviously thought her a nice quiet catch. I think only Aganzir really broke from this regarding Lalaith.

Kitanna's post, perfectly illustrating the above point, with its complete conformity, is almost tauntingly suspicious.

Aganzir

10-29-2008, 12:27 PM

So she has only six posts thus far. She usually isn't one of the most vocal anyway, but although that's pretty little, I'm not worried yet. She has at least given some actual opinions.

I don't understand why Greenie thinks she should be worried of Legate if he plays as if he had nothing to worry about. She kind of contradicts herself there - if Legate was a baddie and had a lover, he would have to be worried about both his own and his lover's life. She agreed with me and Legate about Groin, though.

Greenie thought Rikae votes on day 1 were weird, and that she wouldn't call Fea's rule discussion suspicious since, in her opinion, that early it was as good a topic as any.

She didn't know what to think of Lommy, who looked normal (which means nothing). Later she pointed out, though, that Lommy's suspicion list was full of things like "A is suspicious because of X, but then again there's Y which makes her look innocentish." She thought Lommy was doing it in an exaggerating manner. This (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=571099&postcount=81) is the list she's talking about, and to me it doesn't look very much like exaggeration.

She said she didn't want to vote for Rikae because of how many had said they might vote her, and voted for Groin instead based almost entirely on gut-feeling. She thought he had been one of the least innocentish on day 1, and she didn't like his tone in some things.

On day 2 Greenie didn't understand sally's logic, either, when she said introducing new candidates close to deadline may increase the possibility of a last-minute bandwagon. I agree with her, but she could have said the same even if she was a baddie.
To her, it seems obvious that Lal was a kill with no traces, and Legate might have been suspected to be a lover.

Greenie seems somehow really smooth, but then again that's the way she is. It bothers me that I can't read her at all - she could go either way. Mostly she looks quite innocent, but there are some points which are a bit weird, like that Legate contradiction in her first post, and suggestion that Lommy is softening her opinions to an exaggerative degree (which I don't think she was doing). I also think Rikae's point of a baddie hiding in the open when Greenie speculated on Lal and Leg's deaths is worth at least noticing.

edit: xed with Nog & Eomer

Nogrod

10-29-2008, 12:37 PM

I just couldn't bear go on re-correcting my earlier post another time so I'll just make the meaning of this sentence clear here.
defining the wolves viewpoint as "being safe"This should of course read: defining the wolves viewpoint as wishing to be safe. Sorry. :(

Aganzir

10-29-2008, 12:39 PM

I will only say this. Winning a game would never be so important to me that I would as a werewolf/-penquin/-rhinoceros... kill during the Night someone I like to play with - if there are other choices (the very last Nights of a game might be different). You know it Mac as all those who have played with me.
Ah but what if there was no other choice? Like if your lover was terribly afraid of Lalaith or Legate and thought s/he wouldn't survive another day if they were left alive? There are other people you like to play with, anyway, and do you rather kill one of them than die early and be unable to play with the rest?
I don't suspect you at least for now, but your defense doesn't convince me.

I've been a baddie in that kind of game long ago and it was heart-stopping!
Yeah I agree. And thanks to you, it was literally heart-stopping to me. :rolleyes::p

edit: xed with Nog

Macalaure

10-29-2008, 12:49 PM

I am rather puzzled by your reply to me, Nogrod. Firstly, I made one point against you on the second day, and you compare it to me being after you all the time in the past. That's a little bit out of proportion, don't you think? Secondly, your defense is based entirely on meta-reasons (there is no actual "in-game" defense at all) which I usually dislike. The meta is out there all the time, but it's much more enjoyable to keep it at a minimum. Was my point so well-made that you needed to bash it with the big hammer? Thirdly, instead of giving a non-meta defense of any kind, you threaten to retaliate by a rhetorical question. :rolleyes:

I made my comment because I thought it was worth commenting on and because I thought it appropriate to poke somebody who hasn't been poked much in this game so far. You didn't respond to being poked in a very innocent-looking way...

Nogrod

10-29-2008, 12:58 PM

your defense doesn't convince me.It was probably not even meant to convince in the traditional sense of the term - and it was probably not a traditional "defence" either. I just said that if someone thinks / believes I would kill Lalaith or Legate on Night1 then s/he just doesn't know me.

The point of course was that Mac knows me... :p

Is it not possible to defend anyone in this game without being branded a lover?I'm afraid not. If we have several independent teams - which is still a possibility; I mean there being more than two teams - any defence will be a bit suspicious. And that's the madness of a full lovers game as the lovers need to defend each other unlike a wolfteam which can sacrifice a member if needed. It's sad to be sure.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to help someone you strongly feel is innocent from avoiding the gallows but you should then be ready to pay the price in form of suspicion.

Or were you trying to legitimise your future defence of your lover Agan? :D

EDIT: X'd with MAc... uh-oh... here we go again... :rolleyes:

Aganzir

10-29-2008, 01:15 PM

It was probably not even meant to convince in the traditional sense of the term - and it was probably not a traditional "defence" either. I just said that if someone thinks / believes I would kill Lalaith or Legate on Night1 then s/he just doesn't know me.
Then apparently I don't know you.
Of course everybody knows you rather didn't kill people you like to play with, but if you're on a lover team, there's also someone else but you and you should consider his/her opinions as well.
Just like I didn't like it when Mac said "if I was a wolf, I wouldn't behave this way," I don't like that.

Or were you trying to legitimise your future defence of your lover Agan? :D
As far as I remember, you were the only one who agreed to marry me. So watch out! ;)

Nogrod

10-29-2008, 01:38 PM

Oh, I just had to put this first to you Agan as it really gave me the creeps when I was going to bed last night but didn't bother to go on posting about it anymore: Yes. There are some people who claim we can't pair up if we didn't do it in the very beginning, but who's going to listen to them?Why the need to underline that you were not paired up with anyone in the beginning?

Nogrod

10-29-2008, 01:42 PM

I am rather puzzled by your reply to me, Nogrod. Firstly, I made one point against you on the second day, and you compare it to me being after you all the time in the past. That's a little bit out of proportion, don't you think?Yes, I agree. Wholeheartedly agree. But didn't you notice the smilies? (maybe irony, self-irony or sarcasm isn't for the WW-games then...)

Secondly, your defense is based entirely on meta-reasons (there is no actual "in-game" defense at all) which I usually dislike. The meta is out there all the time, but it's much more enjoyable to keep it at a minimum.Here I must admit I'm beginning to regret my point already. My only "defence" is that your points were just soo far-fetched I kind of tried to do away with them once and for all so that we could concentrate on the in-game wolf-hunting. And it already seems that the mountain is coming out from the initial molehill because of my poor judgement (unless you're a wolf Mac and this is not in vain...).

But you raise once again a good question. The meta-level is there all the time and it has its effects, big effects indeed. Still I kind of agree with you that it should not be prominent. Maybe I've played too many games and need to take a pause? I just had no inspiration to go on the long path of counter-arguing in the traditional sense.

I made my comment because I thought it was worth commenting on and because I thought it appropriate to poke somebody who hasn't been poked much in this game so far.Thank you indeed! (no smilies as I'm quite honest with this praise) I mean Day1 was just terrible! Nobody suspected me! It was weird and dangerous. I was so sure I'd find myself among the corpses after a total butchery taking place last Night.

But then, let the in-game arguments fly!
Was my point so well-made that you needed to bash it with the big hammer?No. It was soo bad there were no reasonable instruments available to do away with it. :p

Thirdly, instead of giving a non-meta defense of any kind, you threaten to retaliate by a rhetorical question.How would you defend yourself against an accusation which is based on pure speculation concerning your own motives? You could say of course: "no, that was not the way I was thinking...". :)

You didn't respond to being poked in a very innocent-looking way...Funny you should say that for now you are contradicting yourself - and possibly your aim is to get some others to believe your gusto and disregard the erratic nature of your points and the motivation behind them to just get me lynched because you're a baddie!

(hah: answer that before you demand I should answer your questions on my possible motivation behind my posting).

The contradiction there? Well, first you say I'm playing unfair as I go for meta-defence which means you don't like the way I corrected you on meta-level on why your initial accusations - that I'd kill Lalaith or Legate - were totally mistaken (and in this you're correct: I'm already a bit ashamed of my conduct there) but then you say my answer was not very innocent looking... :p

A Little Green

10-29-2008, 01:43 PM

Fine, I'm back again. Firstly, about Mac and Nog's little debate.
I don't like the way Nogrod labeled the kills "good". They were only good for the wolves, not the innocents, and the fact that "good" is the first thing Nogrod was able to think in regards to the kills appears like a Freudian wolf-slip. I mean, sure, that is done not unfrequently by others, but the way Nogrod emphasised it is strange. Then again, wouldn't a wolf be extra-careful not to formulate it this way?First, there is this. I see nothing particularly suspicious in labeling kills "good", and calling it a Freudian wolf slip really strikes me as exaggeration.

But the weirdness gets more when we get to Nog's posts... I will only say this. Winning a game would never be so important to me that I would as a werewolf/-penquin/-rhinoceros... kill during the Night someone I like to play with - if there are other choices (the very last Nights of a game might be different). You know it Mac as all those who have played with me.Honestly, I don't like this sort of "I never play like that" -defence. After all, it would be a perfect wolf strategy to do something you constantly claim you never do. Also, just for the sake of being sporty, I'd like to see defences that are based (at least partly) on the current game, not the ones before it. Of course past games affect the current one, but they shouldn't dominate it.

Now defining the wolves viewpoint as "being safe" looks something that just doesn't fit my general impression of what an innocent Sally would think about - or speculate about. For it sure is true that if we have different teams against each other the lovers are scared to death every Night for their rivals (I've been a baddie in that kind of game long ago and it was heart-stopping!). The problem is, did Sally just think of that and decided to use the word "safe" (which really nails down the thing those baddies are longing for) or does she actually feel that way now?I think this looks pretty far-fetched, really - actually this argument is quite similar to Mac's point about Nog: both claim the accused's certain choice of words indicates to being a lover because it looks like thinking from the wrong viewpoint. I'm convinced by neither of these - I'm inclined to believe that an innocent villager is perfectly capable of changing his/her viewpoint to think like a baddie.

Then to other topics. I don't understand why Greenie thinks she should be worried of Legate if he plays as if he had nothing to worry about. She kind of contradicts herself there - if Legate was a baddie and had a lover, he would have to be worried about both his own and his lover's life.I think you misunderstood me, honey. What I meant was that I am used to seeing him more serious, and this change to his usual style of playing is what really made me raise eyebrows. I know it's silly to base worries on what a player is usually like, but his behaviour struck me as a bit odd. Seemingly he just had an exceptionally good day or something. :rolleyes:
She said she didn't want to vote for Rikae because of how many had said they might vote herThis might be trivial, but I feel the need to correct this a bit - my reason for not voting Rikae was not the amount of votes or possible votes she had at that point, but rather that I didn't find her especially suspicious and didn't like the fact that there was only one voting candidate at that point. Here is what I exactly said:I will definitely not vote Rikae - I don't find her particularly suspicious and besides I don't like it when there is but one person who is being voted. It's nothing to encourage discussion other than "Oh my, a bandwaggon!" and is the perfect spot for baddies to slip away unnoticed.

EDIT: x-ed since Mac's 270

Aganzir

10-29-2008, 01:46 PM

Oh, I just had to put this first to you Agan as it really gave me the creeps when I was going to bed last night but didn't bother to go on posting about it anymore: Why the need to underline that you were not paired up with anyone in the beginning?
Because Lommy jokingly complained to me (on MSN) about that I always want to marry her relatives and asked if I didn't know that we couldn't get paired unless it had happened in the beginning, so it just came there. I don't think it was illegal talk since it only had to do with a joke of mine, not the game itself.

edit: xed with Greenie

Aganzir

10-29-2008, 01:51 PM

This might be trivial, but I feel the need to correct this a bit - my reason for not voting Rikae was not the amount of votes or possible votes she had at that point, but rather that I didn't find her especially suspicious and didn't like the fact that there was only one voting candidate at that point.
Sorry - I confused it with another post of yours where you mentioned something about four people talking about voting for her.

A Little Green

10-29-2008, 01:55 PM

Well, first you say I'm playing unfair as I go for meta-defence which means you don't like the way I corrected you on meta-level on why your initial accusations - that I'd kill Lalaith or Legate - were totally mistaken (and in this you're correct: I'm already a bit ashamed of my conduct there) but then you say my answer was not very innocent looking...Eh? Sorry, I think my brain isn't quite working properly or something, but I really have no idea what this sentence means. :D Too many subordinate clauses, I suppose, but I really got lost. Could you explain it?

A Little Green

10-29-2008, 02:20 PM

Sorry - I confused it with another post of yours where you mentioned something about four people talking about voting for her.No probem. :)

I should vote quite soon because I really need to get some sleep tonight. I'll make a list (!!!) to clarify my thoughts a bit.

RED ZONE - suspicious
No one here. I wonder what does it tell...

ORANGE ZONE - somewhat suspicious
Groin - Has posted only one post toDay, is that right? And that was an analysis on Rikae's first post. The tone of that post was somewhat odd, especially the "And that was only her first post!" or something of that sort (really too lazy to look up the exact quote) seemed quite like overreacting to me, especially if taken into account that Rikae had already explained that post. I suppose he'll return later toDay.
Gollum - I don't like the way he appears, makes quite vague-grounded suspicions that mainly follow the main stream of the discussion, and bases suspicions on stuff such as what a person's role was in the previous game. On the other hand it seems a trifle too careless for a baddie - especially a baddie who has another baddie to think of as well...
Nog - His points in the "debate" with Mac made me uneasy about him. I don't like the way he considers Mac's point about him sooo bad (or something like that, again too lazy to look it up) and then brings up a very similar point about Sally.
Mac - He, too, brought up a real "grasping at straws"-point, against Nog. The whole debate between the two looked odd to me, I'd like to look it over but I'm afraid I have no time. Mac has looked furrier toDay than he did yesterDay, but I don't know...

(little) GREEN ZONE - innocentish
Agan - Is generally reasonable, not as sneaky and smooth as she tends to be when a baddie, and has good points. No evidence against her at this point.
Brinn - Seems very sincere, there is nothing as far as I can see that speaks against her.
Eönwë - Feels sincere.

NO IDEA -ZONE - let the name speak for it.
Kitanna
Sally
Shasta
Gwath
Rikae
McCaber
Fea
Eomer

I'm slightly worried about the size of my no idea -zone. :rolleyes: Based on this, my top suspects would be Groin, Gollum, Nog, and Mac. The problem is that I don't feel very comfortable with voting any of them...

I'll go eat something and come back to vote before I go to sleep.

Macalaure

10-29-2008, 02:22 PM

But didn't you notice the smilies?

Huh? There is only one "rolleye"-smiley in that particular post #265. :confused:

How would you defend yourself against an accusation which is based on pure speculation concerning your own motives? You could say of course: "no, that was not the way I was thinking...". :)

That would have been a lot more effective. You could also have explained why my interpretation was wrong, but anyway, I didn't actually expect any elaborate defense (my point really wasn't that amazing), just an honest-looking one. Now that this point has been blown out of its proportion, your in-game defense seems weak...

Funny you should say that for now you are contradicting yourself - and possibly your aim is to get some others to believe your gusto and disregard the erratic nature of your points and the motivation behind them to just get me lynched because you're a baddie!

(hah: answer that before you demand I should answer your questions on my possible motivation behind my posting).

The contradiction there? Well, first you say I'm playing unfair as I go for meta-defence which means you don't like the way I corrected you on meta-level on why your initial accusations - that I'd kill Lalaith or Legate - were totally mistaken (and in this you're correct: I'm already a bit ashamed of my conduct there) but then you say my answer was not very innocent looking... :p

Huh? I don't see the slightest contradiction. Bringing in meta-reasons and criticising the meta-reasons given are not the same. I'm giving no meta-reasons to counter yours, mind you! And in any case, the fact that you resorted to meta was only one out of three reasons why I think your post looks evil. What are you talking about?

Eönwë

10-29-2008, 02:22 PM

A wacky idea suggested to me by the Venus scenario in the narration also was that the number of lover pairs might be increasing, somehow, and we could expect greater carnage in the nights to come.

Now that would be scary.:eek:

If the seer dreams of you, you might still have a plenty of time to kill her since she probably doesn't come out after finding just one baddie. However, if another team chooses to kill you, you're dead that very night. If I was a baddie, I'd much rather get rid of the other baddies before throwing wild guesses about who the seer could be.

As well as this, the seer also has a larger chance of finding the other baddies, and getting them lynched, so this also helps the lovers (as well as the rest of the village, obviously). It just makes it easier fir them.

Still reading this page...

Gollum the Great

10-29-2008, 02:31 PM

Augghh!

My internet connection was severed and now I don't have time to complete my read, or even post. I may get back before DL, but I'm not sure that I will vote.

Vote well!

A Little Green

10-29-2008, 02:40 PM

I'll vote now and be off to bed. My vote will be

++ Gollum

for reasons stated in my previous post. I ended up thinking that he's the most suspicious of my four orange zone people.
Good night m'dears.

EDIT: x-ed with Gollum - sorry to hear that. :( Unfortunately I won't change my vote because he can't defend himself, since neither could the others before I leave, which is approximately now. (Did anyone understand anything about that?)

Gwathagor

10-29-2008, 02:53 PM

Over confidence? It looked like he was just being plain old silly if you ask me.

There is a great deal of confidence implicit in silliness, Groin. I happen to agree with you that Mac seems innocent overall, but you're definitely pushing it a bit here.

Groin, go read what I already said about that post, I see no need to say anything else. *shrug*
I do find myself wondering if the fact that no one has paid any attention to my increasing number of lovers theory means I've stumbled on the truth and those who know it are afraid to tip me off, assuming I know it too - but I suppose more likely you all just think I'm loony.

Rikae seems to be playing up two identities here: that of the martyr, and that of the innocent. The first assumes the reality of the second (which is assuming a great deal), without explicitly stating either. Implied identities are significantly more dangerous than those that have been expressed, as they tend to escape analysis and can become axiomatic before they were ever theoretical.

Also, declining to answer another player's objections under the excuse that the issue has already been laid to rest looks to me like a sneaky way of suppressing suspicion.

I don't like the way Nogrod labeled the kills "good". They were only good for the wolves, not the innocents, and the fact that "good" is the first thing Nogrod was able to think in regards to the kills appears like a Freudian wolf-slip. I mean, sure, that is done not unfrequently by others, but the way Nogrod emphasised it is strange. Then again, wouldn't a wolf be extra-careful not to formulate it this way?

I don't have any problem with Nogrod's use of the word "good" in this context. It is natural to understand the lovers' actions in terms of what is "good" for them.

Aganzir

10-29-2008, 02:57 PM

I should be voting soonishly too.

The problem is that I'm still quite undecided. I want Gollum and Groin to have a chance to answer to me first but I don't know how likely it is that they turn up while I'm still online.

My other main options are Mac and Fea.

Gwathagor

10-29-2008, 02:59 PM

Secondly, your defense is based entirely on meta-reasons (there is no actual "in-game" defense at all) which I usually dislike. The meta is out there all the time, but it's much more enjoyable to keep it at a minimum.

Well, I like meta-game discussion.

Nogrod

10-29-2008, 03:07 PM

Also, just for the sake of being sporty, I'd like to see defences that are based (at least partly) on the current game, not the ones before it.
.......
What I meant was that I am used to seeing him [Legate] more serious, and this change to his usual style of playing is what really made me raise eyebrows. :p

It's not that easy folks...

Gwathagor

10-29-2008, 03:13 PM

:p

It's not that easy folks...

I agree, and will take the assertion even one step farther: trying to analyze a player apart from the context of their past games is as futile as trying to appreciate an artist apart from his body of work.

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 03:19 PM

Some off-the-top-of-my-head points:

1. My theory of lover-trios goes back to... um. There was a game (I think it was Brinniel's) with three Lovers; the Ranger Lover, the Ordo Lover, and the.... Wolf Lover? In any case, it was a baddie. I don't think trios are that far-fetched of an idea, and it would make more sense (six baddies makes more sense than four baddies, and their team wouldn't be immediately decimated with the death of one member.) Fea's reaction to this - or should I say, overreaction? - seemed kind of unnecessary; a case of "the Lover doth protest too much"?

2. There seems to be a relationship between Greenie and Mac today. They're both consistently bringing up the same points against Nogrod, which isn't eyebrow-raising, but Greenie puts just enough suspicion against Mac in her posts to make it seem as if she's distancing herself from him.

3. One of Sally's reasons for voting yesterday struck me as bizarre. She said she "didn't want to create a tie". Why? According to the rules, the first person to receive the number of votes, in the case of a tie, is the person who will be executed. Lommy still would have been executed at that point, no matter who you had voted, so why the insistence on not creating a tie?

Eomer of the Rohirrim

10-29-2008, 03:25 PM

I'm a bit pessimistic about analysing the deaths last night in any meaningful way right now.

If there are teams of lovers picking different kills, then there is competition to kill the opposing team first. They will try to hunt down their enemies, but how can they tell who's a lover? It would make sense for lovers to stay far away from each other during the day. Thus "Legate was winking at so-and-so!" is not going to persuade any villain that their enemies are carelessly revealing themselves. The interaction on Day One is just a blur of misinformation. Maybe the villains did choose their kills on a meta-basis. Lovers, Legate, Lalaith, Loving, Legate, Lovey, Lalaith.... maybe it was hypnotic. ;)

Anyway, our villains were wrong. Makes me wonder, on a meta-level...

Who could survive in a game like this, where villagers seek the famous romantics, focusing their efforts thither?

Not Legate, obviously! I could have told you that last week. He was never going to be a lover. Look what happened in the last game. :p

Too meta?

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 03:28 PM

If we're going into meta...

It's clear, then, that Rikae and Mac are a pair, as well as Sally and Legate, and Fea and Phantom!

...Oh wait.... Legate's dead and Phantom's not playing. Funny, that. :Merisu:

Feanor of the Peredhil

10-29-2008, 03:36 PM

My other main options are Mac and Fea.

Bad options, I assure you. Or at least bad option, singular.

Fea's reaction to this - or should I say, overreaction? - seemed kind of unnecessary; a case of "the Lover doth protest too much"?

Stop that. Really, no matter who you are you don't want me lynched. Cross my heart and promise. The wolves want me alive, the village wants me alive, and when it comes time for my death, you'd better believe that it's best for everybody if it's on my own terms. I'm blowing off my night class and going shopping. Don't kill me while I'm gone.

Aganzir

10-29-2008, 03:38 PM

It's not that easy folks...
Nope, but there's a certain difference between saying that someone is weird because his way of playing is so different from usual and actually voting for someone because of trust problems caused by her being a wolf in the last game. ;)

1. My theory of lover-trios goes back to... um. There was a game (I think it was Brinniel's) with three Lovers; the Ranger Lover, the Ordo Lover, and the.... Wolf Lover?
Lommy's, which I helped to mod. But there the point was that no one knew that there were three of them, except the ordo lover. I don't think something like that would work here - with a gifted, ordo, and wolf.

3. One of Sally's reasons for voting yesterday struck me as bizarre. She said she "didn't want to create a tie". Why? According to the rules, the first person to receive the number of votes, in the case of a tie, is the person who will be executed. Lommy still would have been executed at that point, no matter who you had voted, so why the insistence on not creating a tie?
This is actually a good point. It could be interpreted as a wolf trying to look helpful and normal and innocent and all. Then on the other hand it's also possible that sally's just so used to the idea of ties being bad that she kind of automatically thought "No ties" when voting.

edit: xed with Shasta & Fea

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 03:41 PM

"Best for everybody"? Lovers included? So, what you're saying is, you're neutral?

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 03:44 PM

Lommy's, which I helped to mod. But there the point was that no one knew that there were three of them, except the ordo lover. I don't think something like that would work here - with a gifted, ordo, and wolf.

Right, not necessarily a cross-alignment trio, but I remember that in that lover-trio, one of them died and the other two remained alive, but another died and they died together. Am I making sense? The mechanic could be the same.

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 03:49 PM

This is actually a good point. It could be interpreted as a wolf trying to look helpful and normal and innocent and all. Then on the other hand it's also possible that sally's just so used to the idea of ties being bad that she kind of automatically thought "No ties" when voting.

I could be wrong, but haven't the last... three or four games had the same "first person to tie is executed" rule?

Eomer of the Rohirrim

10-29-2008, 03:49 PM

So, as I pointed out earlier, one of the things that caught my eye today was Kitanna's post. Let's have a look at reactions today, to the killings of Legate and Lalaith.

1) Rikae: Both classic wolf kills. No trails.

2) Brinniel: Lalaith, no trail. Legate, maybe he was a gifted.

3) Shasta: Legate, they thought he was a lover.

4) Eonwe: Lalaith, no trail there.

5) Aganzir: Legate? Probably thought he was a lover.

6) Sally: Legate? Hmm, I think they thought he was.... a lover!

7) Aganzir: lalaith could have been gifted, mind.

Then we have Kitanna, who pops up to say that o yes indeed, lalaith was an obvious kill given her "quietness" and that Legate was, like others thought, believed to have been a gifted.

I don't know what there is about this post but it just seems so throwaway, like Kit is merely going through the motions. Also, it's my time to betray her now. She's had it her way for too long. :p

String her up!

Aganzir

10-29-2008, 03:49 PM

Right, not necessarily a cross-alignment trio, but I remember that in that lover-trio, one of them died and the other two remained alive, but another died and they died together. Am I making sense? The mechanic could be the same.
Possible but I don't know how likely it is. As for our game, the ordo lover was the most important - had she died, the others would have died too. She stayed alive as long as at least one of her lovers was alive.

Fea, your post made me feel more like voting for you than I did before.

edit: xed with Shasta & Eomer

Macalaure

10-29-2008, 03:51 PM

I don't have any problem with Nogrod's use of the word "good" in this context. It is natural to understand the lovers' actions in terms of what is "good" for them.

Don't just look at the original point - I never claimed it to be a good one - look at Nogrod's reactions to it (and his reaction to my reaction...): those are what makes me suspicious.

I agree, and will take the assertion even one step farther: trying to analyze a player apart from the context of their past games is as futile as trying to appreciate an artist apart from his body of work.

Just to clarify: I don't think that arguments like "A plays differently than usual" are meta-reasoning - they're still concerned only with our in-game-personalities. In the case here, it reached out to out-game-personality ("Winning is not that important to me..."), and I don't think it's good to go there.

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 03:58 PM

Brinniel

10-29-2008, 04:01 PM

I've come to the realisation that I don't really have any strong suspicions of anyone as of now. Time to take a closer look at everyone...I will be back..

Eomer of the Rohirrim

10-29-2008, 04:01 PM

Actually, yes. There's no way I'm staying up any later.

Kitanna always gets the last laugh. At least some of you should know that by now. Maybe it's because of that dodgy post earlier today; maybe it's just because she's a survivor; maybe it's because she has a history of slaying an entire village with her lover (who would that have been... :p ). All these are exceptionally valid reasons with little to no need of supportive evidence.

Hmm, now I'm the annoying guy who votes first and is exempt from talk of bandwagoning. :D

Eomer of the Rohirrim

10-29-2008, 04:03 PM

So... Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I'm confused. Are you and Kitanna lovers? And if so, why would you betray her? Doesn't seem very sportsmanlike.

It's ok, Shasta. It's meta. :smokin:

Nogrod

10-29-2008, 04:04 PM

Okay. It's like walking a trapeze.

I probably went a bit overboard back there and I do apologise, it was due to a weak judgement arising from...

Well, looking back to the first points made by Macalaure I might now see the reason: I was indeed a bit annoyed for the fact that he suspected me of being a very stupid wolf who has no idea how to play this game - or how he possibly tried to portray himself as a "sharp-shooter" trying to appeal to those who would not know a thing or two about people playing in this game by pushing things over any reasonable limits...

I said the kills during the Night were good. That means our baddies have sense and are no fools (at least one in each pair has sense). So he says "Ai! That term "good" was the first [!!!] that came to Wolf-Nog's mind! It appears like a Freudian slip!"

I say that it seems the killers of Lalaith have a different approach to the game than those killing Legate, which I think is an important point as there seemed to be some confusion about the setting of the game. But Mac says: "Gotchya! Thinking too much about the opposing wolf-side's tactics!"

Why I am weary about this with Mac? Had it been Xyzzy (sorry mate!), or anyone not actually reading the threads or actually played in these games before who was making those points, I would have just ignored them and only protested if there was an apparent bandwagon. But seeing Mac doing it I kind of... forgot my better judgement.

These arguments are here and they do exist whether we voice them out or not. There's no escaping them.

At the moment I'm only pondering whether Mac looks more suspicious to me than Greenie who neatly tried to exploit this whole row and then evasively voted for Gollum (who sure is an easy target at this moment)...

EDIT: X'd with a host of posts... actually from Gwath on.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

10-29-2008, 04:04 PM

Forgot to vote. :rolleyes: :D

++KITANNA

Aganzir

10-29-2008, 04:06 PM

++ Fea

Sorry love, but I don't trust you. To my understanding you could make a post such as that regardless of your role, so it doesn't move me either way. Somehow it still provokes me, though.

edit: xed with Nog & Eomer

Brinniel

10-29-2008, 04:29 PM

Groin: Has only made one post so far toDay, accusing Rikae of wolfish behaviour. His accusation seemed reasonable...but really, I want to hear more from him. He's only made five posts thus far and hasn't voted.

Aganzir: Has posted over twice as much as everyone else alive. Slow down, girl. ;) So far nothing about her has alarmed me. She doesn't feel manipulative as she usually does when guilty. And all the arguments and suspicions she has put out, particularly toDay, are well made. But then again, she's said so much that I hope I haven't missed something. I don't find her at all suspicious as of now, but I still don't want to disregard the possibility of her being a lover. Because we all know how good Aganzir is at playing evil.

Kitanna: Is also not around enough. She made a reasonable case against Rikae, but toDay we've barely heard from her. Like Groin, I really need to hear more before forming an opinion.

Gollum: Has typical newbie behaviour. Doesn't say very much and doesn't provide a well-rounded explanation for his suspicions. My guess is that this is more innocentish newbie behaviour...as a lover, I think his partner would advice him on how to contribute more and blend in so not to stand out. However, he remains yet another I want to hear more from.

To be continued...

Eönwë

10-29-2008, 04:42 PM

Since I really am at a loss, i think I'll vote

++Nogrod

I don't really feel comfortable voting him, but I also feel like he i strying a bit too hard, if you get what I mean.

Forget meta, why not go for pure surrealism.
"Why does the cat change its socks at 5pm" Or if you're Legate-ish "Three cranes" or maybe even "6.565323048912 cranes".

I'll have to go back and answer everything I wanted to toMorrow.

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 04:51 PM

Gwathagor

10-29-2008, 04:57 PM

If you don't feel comfortable voting him... why do it? I don't get why people say that.

I quite agree, Shastanis. If you're going to vote against your own better judgment, at the very least invent some kind of plausible justification, if only for the benefit of your fellow players.
:rolleyes:

Nogrod

10-29-2008, 05:02 PM

Oh my, five hours to the wake-up call... :eek:

So maybe I should just try to annoy and upset you by suspecting all of you?

Suspicious

Kitanna defended Mac twice on Day1 when he was in trouble and hasn't made me feel any better toDay with her carefulness. Mac has clearly made his task toDay to get an innocent lynched... or at least make me suspected a lot.

To me it looks like a good deal trying out one of them.

I'm still a bit weary about Sally's way of posting.

Greenie took the most out of the little skirmish between me and Mac nicely portraying herself as an outsider (and making rreally bad interpretations of what people had said!) and then conveniently voted for Gollum as an easy choice.

Not going to vote...

Eomer looks reasonable even if I could see him playing it this safely as a baddie. I kind of suspect him indeed but have nothing to point my finger on.

Unlike Aganzir I'm not so worried about Fea this time. Although it depends on how she continues the game. Even if a case could be made that she tried to get through Day1 by being reasonable and has now fallen to her unfathomable ways to cover her lupine identity.

Rikae I'm somewhat easy about - but it may be because I have not concentrated on her too much so far. Still I wouldn't wish to lynch her as she is a formidable enemy of the baddies if she's a goodie.

Brinn looks good even if I know she can pull that face when a wolf. But like Rikae (and many others), she might be an asset in the endgame and I wouldn't like to see her go with no good reason.

Aganzir answered my few little teasers well enough and I will not be voting her even if I have a bad feeling about her everytime I play with her due to her mastery of being a sneaky wolf.

Alarmingly no idea eg. a host of baddies here!!!

Shasta - making points more than I'd expect. A good or a bad thing?
Gollum - trailing others too much to be a baddie? His lover would have consulted him?
Eönwë - lot of talk in numbers, little to say.
Gwath - his grounds for a vote yesterDay were terrible (voted Fea because he disagreed with her about Mac!) - I wonder why Agan was so keen on defending him??? But has been reasonable toDay, mainly because of agreeing with me... :rolleyes: and that I always find dubious.
Groin - is he playing?
McCaber - a real submarine

Okay. I'm not voting as yet. I try to wake up early enough to vote nearer the deadline if there would be any discussions or votes that would help me with my choice...

Good night!

PS. It's nice to see you Americans being forced to decide these votes for a change! :)

EDIT: X'd from Eönwë's vote...

Kitanna

10-29-2008, 05:21 PM

Clearly my being busy from my first post today and now has made some suspect as a flying under the radar type (or that is how I see it). But I'm here now and will most likely be around until close to deadline.

I plan on taking a look at Eonwe and Eomer and Rikae as well to follow up my suspicions from yesterday.

Kitanna

10-29-2008, 05:49 PM

I will start with Eonwe because on Day 1 he said something right before I left for the night that caught my attention:

edit: x-ed with Kitanna- another person stealing my Rikae vote. Grrr!
Up until that point I hadn't noted Eonwe saying much against anyone, much less Rikae.

His first two posts were nothing more than commenting on how quiet things were at that point.His next post is just commentary on the rules in response to something sally had said. He then accuses Lommy of being jumpy after she accused Mac of being jumpy. Not much else to be gathered there.

First she disassociates herself from him by suspecting him, then she defends him. But would Di really make them a couple just to tease us?
First mention of Rikae. Doesn't really cast suspicion on her, seems like he's stating things matter of factly.

Poses the question if Agan is a bold wolf. Calls her phantom-ish in her playing style. In the same posts comments on something Mac said in regards to Rikae.

Rikae ~ accuses and defends me, which is what innocent Rikaes tend to do, but evil Rikaes might as well
And now your defending her too, but not obviously so. Hmmm... The plot thickens
Still isn't really voicing his own suspicions of either.

Next post is the one that initially caught my eye. So up until that point in Eonwe's posting he hadn't really voiced any suspicions on anyone and it was only after Eomer and I cross voted that he came right out and said he had plans to vote for Rikae.

This post was about to be a vote-post, but for some reason I just had a sudden feeling that I shouldn't vote Rikae.
I'll wait and see what she has to say for herself (if it's in the next 45 minutes).
Yet he provides no reason as to why he would have voted Rikae in the first place. Unless I just haven't picked up on his subtleties the two posts he mentioned Rikae in before this didn't seem like he really suspected her.

His next few posts contain very little substance. They name no one and are generally responses to simple questions. His post #142 tallies the few votes up until that point. No mention of how he's feeling about Rikae.

I should probably sleep, but I haven't got any good ideas yet.

What makes it harder is I'm afraid to accuse a gifted.
No explanation he was so sure he'd vote for Rikae and then nothing, now he finds himself totally unsure. His next post is more lamenting of the same kind.

And he has a whole slew of votes with no content, just blather really. And then, out of seemingly no where, a vote for Legate. No explanation, no nothing. He states it randomly which is not really a big deal to me, but the fact he was so sure about Rikae worries me. For four posts he mentions Rikae, two stating things she said but not really doing anything with them, one where he comments on not being the first to vote for her, and one where he wants to give her more time. Then a random vote for Legate.

His first post from today highlights the deaths, speculating why Lalaith and Legate were killed, nothing sinister there. Next he provides a vote tally making sure to highlight those with confirmed roles, vote numbers, etc. Helpful, but no insight into what Eonwe is thinking.

And it looks like he voted for Nogrod today. I'm guessing he was under time constraints, but that's another random vote on his part.

What worries me about Eonwe is how much he talks, but how little he is saying. That's not even what bothers me the most, innocents are perfectly capable of lots of posts that don't help too much, but Eonwe rarely names anyone in his posts. I feel like he's trying to distance himself from everyone by randomly voting and casting absolutely no suspicions on anyone. I'm also interested in why he was ready to vote for Rikae, but backed off immediately? Was he looking for a safe vote, but when he acquired two he didn't want to find himself in a bandwagon?

Kitanna

10-29-2008, 06:11 PM

Moving on to Eomer...
Appears suddenly and votes Rikae after stating: Well, I'm all for a bit more substance.
Alright. I'll taker this as a time issue.

Most of his first post today was about possible teams of werelovers given two dead in the night, nothing evil there. And then at the end of his post:
As for my vote yesterday, Rikae got it spot on. Pot and stirring. That's all.
Indicating his vote was nothing more than stirring things up. In which case it would be useless to ask why Rikae because it could have been anyone. His other posts really didn't stand to accuse anyone though he commented on my first post of the day being little more than a conformity post. Which leads me to believe I shouldn't speak when under time constraints.

His next post attacks my post once more, showing me I'm better off not speaking.
Kitanna always gets the last laugh. At least some of you should know that by now. Maybe it's because of that dodgy post earlier today; maybe it's just because she's a survivor; maybe it's because she has a history of slaying an entire village with her lover (who would that have been... ). All these are exceptionally valid reasons with little to no need of supportive evidence.
Does my one post really have that big of an effect. And surprise, surprise Eomer voted for me. I'm actually confused as to why Eomer has attacked me in such a way. It's not even that he brings me to the village's attentions, I'm just confused he mentioned no one else. That doesn't seem like Eomer to me. But what do I know?

So... Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I'm confused. Are you and Kitanna lovers? And if so, why would you betray her? Doesn't seem very sportsmanlike.
You can't be bitter about our victory as lovers in the wizards game can you Eomer?

Rikae

10-29-2008, 06:12 PM

Kitanna - it occurs to me that perhaps Eonwe thought I might be gifted. Thought I'd mention that since, if he does, he probably doesn't want to mention it himself.

Eomer's behavior is very strange, in that it looks like the old wolf-trap technique of casting a random vote and then turning on the person who follows it, except that the person in question, cross-voted.

Brinn is worrying me - I'm going to go back and look at something.

Oh yes, and Mac and Nogrod should knock off the "Itchy and Scratchy" routine already. :rolleyes:

Macalaure

10-29-2008, 06:21 PM

Well, looking back to the first points made by Macalaure I might now see the reason:

Did it take you three hours to understand why you were annoyed, or to finally come up with a convincing backstory to your faked annoyance? ;)

Groin ~ is barely there, and what he said today I didn't like
Aganzir ~ innocent, I think
Kitanna ~ haven't paid very much attention to her, I admit, but what I've seen so far didn't alarm me
Gollum ~ completely escaped my attention (it's good I do these lists once a day - I'd forget about half the people...)
Nogrod ~ has been exceedingly strange today. I'm pondering whether it's enough to vote for him
Brinniel ~ not worried about
Sally ~ I have a bad feeling about her - I'll rethink it tomorrow, I think
Shasta ~ not worried either
Gwath ~ not really sure, but not alarmed right now either
Rikae ~ seems more innocent than guilty
McCaber ~ ???
Fea ~ not sure, but not really suspicious right now either
Lily ~ kept herself somewhere around the edges of my argument with Nogrod, suspects him but didn't vote him... worried
Eönwë ~ I think I need to have a closer look at tomorrow. Something's strange about him
Eomer ~ I still get a baddish vibe from him, but it's not enough to vote him today

I think I'll give Nogrod the benefit of doubt for today. Sally, Eonwe, and Eomer I'm suspicious of, but I need to really make my mind up first. The same holds for Lily. This only leaves Groin out of my suspects, but I'm not sure whether he's actually evil or whether he just doesn't have a grasp at this village yet and is hindered by little time.

Hmmm...

++Groin Redbeard

Rikae

10-29-2008, 06:34 PM

Ok, the thing I thought I remembered about Brinn turned out to be wrong.
I did, however, notice that Groin already commented on my first post early yesterDay. He shows up toDay in order to attack that post again (when it looks like he'll have some support, perhaps?) even though his points have already been made by someone else and addressed. He really looks like someone who is looking for some accusation to make that won't make any waves. The only thing in his favor, to my mind, is that this kind of playing may be too lazy to be evil.

Kitanna

10-29-2008, 06:39 PM

To my last suspect, Rikae. I'd like to follow up how I felt yesterday. As I said I felt uncomfortable with her Mac accusation. I could tell it was a joke, but the way she shamelessly put out herself as an innocent. So I'd like to look long and hard at Rikae to see if my uneasiness about her lessens or grows.

First post is the one that made my uncomfortable to begin with. No need to restate myself. Next post is a response to some things Mac had said.
Defends Mac with: Hmm...
just wanted to add, "jumpiness" is a very easy accusation to use against Mac, since he tends to respond that way regardless of his role. Not saying he's not suspicious, but since we almost certainly have baddies going after each other in this game...
Not highly suspicious given he original accusations were mostly made in jest.

Next she comments on Sally's questions. Says they are employed despite guilt or innocence, sort of in the same way Mac's jumpiness is used I guess. Doesn't really accuse sally.
Second - Sally's rhetorical questions aren't very helpful (I mean, seriously, who's going to suspect Legate for having a "nice little list"?), but seem to be something she uses fairly often, baddie or innocent.

Bolds something she found interesting with one of Agan's posts. Doesn't accuse here either.

Methinks Aganzir, Macalaure, and Lommy are all baddies of some sort.
Doesn't elaborate, but given the rest of her post she didn't to leave at that time.

Returns and comments that Eomer's vote was to stir the pot, but mine was nasty because it followed his immediately. Also comments about Agan's threat to vote for her as well. She doesn't mention Eonwe, though. He said he was going to vote for her for sure before Agan even mentioned possibly voting for Rikae. She also still finds Mac suspicious, but admits to not wanting to for him that day.

She votes for Agan. Don't see anything too suspicious with that vote.

First post of today doesn't strike me as much. Responds to Groin and alerts us to her presence.

Her most recent post brings up the idea perhaps Eomer thought her gifted. But also finds Eomer's behavior strange. Eomer's behavior is very strange, in that it looks like the old wolf-trap technique of casting a random vote and then turning on the person who follows it, except that the person in question, cross-voted.
Has mild suspicions towards Brinn, I expect something will follow later.

Rikae's first post still has me wondering.
Di wouldn't make both Mac and I ordos. Ergo, he has a role, and, judging by point #1, that role is an evil one.
I realize this point doesn't do anyone any good until I'm dead, but that shouldn't take long when Mac is evil.
However, nothing else she has said really worries me about her and one little jest post (no matter how sinister I feel it may be) is not enough for me to condemn someone as a baddy. For right now I feel better about Rikae, she seems sound and responsible.

Edit: I see Rikae went a looked back on Brinn and found whatever she was worried about was wrong. Also refers to Groin as too lazy to be a bad guy.

Rikae

10-29-2008, 06:47 PM

Quick correction:

Her most recent post brings up the idea perhaps Eomer thought her gifted. But also finds Eomer's behavior strange.
Perhaps Eonwe thought I was gifted; Eomer is strange.

Kitanna

10-29-2008, 06:48 PM

Quick correction:

Perhaps Eonwe thought I was gifted; Eomer is strange.
Oh sorry, the Eo names threw me off.

McCaber

10-29-2008, 07:06 PM

So I should probably take some valuable programming time to think.

Is it too late to take Eonwe to task for lack of content? (Aware of the hypocrisy, thank you very much.) Lots of posts, no actual opinions expressed. I'm keeping watch on you. Shape up.

Eomer - confusing. Not least due to post shortage.

I'll be coming back in and out, but not very frequently. After today, werewolves should have my full attention.

Feanor of the Peredhil

10-29-2008, 07:52 PM

++Rikae

Because I'm uncomfortable with her here's my suspicion, just kidding, but no really, I'm suspicious approach to Mac, as well as the way she just sort of agrees with suspicious things Eomer and I do. I mean, it's nice to have somebody thinking on the same level I am, but when everybody else thinks I'm insane and one person is just like *nodding* I could see that, it kind of makes me wonder if they really do or if they just want to get on my good side.

Brinniel

10-29-2008, 08:06 PM

Continuing where I left off...

Nogrod: Was actually rather quiet at the beginning, but now back to his typical self. While I agree with his supicions towards Sally, I disagree with his arguments against Mac. But really, he looks quite sensible. No alarm bells ringing yet.

Sally: As I mentioned, I do agree with Nogrod that Sally's been acting a bit differently. At the beginning of the game, she starts off fairly silly and later on does add a few silly bits here and there...but I'm used to a much more crazy Sally; that's her playing style. So could the serious turn in her behaviour possibly mean she's a lover?

Shasta: Has made a lot of posts without saying all that much. His vote yesterDay for Aganzir is the vote I'm least comfortable with. It was the second vote for her and I don't see much reason behind it. It feels like an attempt for a last-minute bandwagon to me. His one-liner questions/commentary in response to others' posts seem a bit forced.

Gwath: Is flying under the radar. His reasons behind voting Fea yesterDay seem rather flawed, but other than that, nothing really stands out to me.

Rikae: Focused a lot on Mac yesterDay, though not so much toDay. Nothing about her stands out as suspicious. In fact, I'd say her vote for Aganzir makes her less suspicious because with two votes, she was at risk of getting lynched...if she were a lover, it wouldn't make sense to spread out the voting even more and continue her chances of getting lynched. I just think a lover would be more concerned with keeping her and her partner in safety.

Mac: Has acquired a lot of attention. I wonder if that's because he's managed to be quite the sneaky wolf in the past. But looking at his posts, his arguments seem sensible to me and I don't see him very suspicious at all.

McCaber: Ehm...we've seen very little of him, so I can't say much. Would a lover be so uninvolved? I want to say it's unlikely, but it's possible...especially if lack of participation is unavoidable due to RL.

This is taking me a long time...so I think I'll post what I have now and finish looking at the last four in a little bit.

Rikae

10-29-2008, 08:23 PM

Guess I should respond to Fea:
I'm uncomfortable with her here's my suspicion, just kidding, but no really, I'm suspicious approach to Mac...
Yes, I've noticed, over the past two days, quite a few people dislike my approach to Mac. I disagree - I like it just fine, and I'm quite comfortable with it. I will most likely use it in the future, so you all are just going to have to get comfortable with it. :p
...as well as the way she just sort of agrees with suspicious things Eomer and I do.
Well, since you call it suspicious, I take it you're admitting to being a baddie? And in cahoots with Eomer, too? Very well, then. ;)

I would certainly do those sorts of things myself innocently, at any rate. I guess it comes down to how likely I think someone is to behave as I would.

On another note:
Yes, McCaber, you haven't posted much, and yes, it's strange, under those circumstances, to show up and attack other (less) quiet players. Yes, I think it's a strategy to exempt yourself from suspicion on those grounds. I'm watching you.

EDIT: To clarify, the "sorts of things" I would do innocently are: pot-stirring like Eomer's, and hoping rules discussion might provoke a wolf slip.

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 08:46 PM

I'd like to point out to Brinniel that people have been saying that "Sally's been slightly different than how she usually plays..." for the last four games or so. :p

Oh, I'm sorry, did that seem forced? :rolleyes:

Edit: Brinniel, not Fea. Their avatars are similar.

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 08:49 PM

Also, I'd like to correct Kitanna real quick.

So... Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I'm confused. Are you and Kitanna lovers? And if so, why would you betray her? Doesn't seem very sportsmanlike.

You can't be bitter about our victory as lovers in the wizards game can you Eomer?

:)

Rikae

10-29-2008, 09:35 PM

Vote count, since we don't have one yet:

Greenie: ++Gollum (Gollum 1)
Eomer: ++Kitanna (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1)
Aganzir: ++Fea (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1)
Eönwë: ++Nogrod (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1)
Mac: ++Groin (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1)
Fea: ++Rikae (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1)

As for me, I'm beginning to think that this village has far too many submarines who, when they do post, post things that don't make much sense, and I'm rather inclined to vote for such a person. Between suspicious and quiet, and suspicious and loud, the latter are more fun to have around and will give us more to judge them by as the game progresses.
I'd put Gollum, Gwath, Groin, Eönwë and McCaber, in that category - far too many - and there's too little to go on. Gollum has been called an "easy target" by Nogrod, but the sort of behavior he's shown looks to me more like an "easy target" in the sense of a newbie baddie than of a newbie ordo. Groin I already addressed - it looks like he's trying to go with the flow and avoid saying anything too unique/bold. Eönwë isn't saying much of substance, but doesn't look necessarily guilty to me at this point (although rather "iffy") - Gwath has said some things that just don't make a lot of sense, and I expect better from him - McCaber may be *too* quiet to be evil.

Kitanna

10-29-2008, 09:37 PM

Also, I'd like to correct Kitanna real quick.

I am just having a bad day mixing people up today.

But I'm going to cast my vote now. I've narrowed it down to Eonwe and Eomer.

I'm not a fan of the way Eomer is acting. I'd find it weird if anyone was doing it, but I'm particularly hurt because it's me (kidding). In seriousness though his behavior has me worried. He had one post yesterday which could have been no more than a time problem, however today he had one attack about my first post of the day. It made a bit of sense at first, but after that it was nothing more than personal attacks based on nothing.

Then there's Eonwe, he has talked an awful lot, but hasn't said much that's actually helpful. He was all ready to vote for Rikae and then without her saying anything he decided to give her more time. Rikae suggests Eonwe thought she might be a gifted. But I'm not sure about that. It could be possible he thought that, but I'm wondering what he saw in Rikae's posts from before his post #113.

++ Eonwe

Eomer needs to be watched and I am worried about his behavior today and I want to see what he does tomorrow. I'm worried about Eonwe just as much, but I feel tomorrow will be more of the same from Eonwe (talking lots, being careful not to associate with anyone, maybe even randomly voting).

Rikae

10-29-2008, 09:39 PM

Hm, it occurs to me that if those gentlemen I listed are too offended at being called "less fun", four of them could vote for me now and lynch me. :rolleyes:

Ah well.

Brinniel

10-29-2008, 09:41 PM

I'd like to point out to Brinniel that people have been saying that "Sally's been slightly different than how she usually plays..." for the last four games or so.
Umm...Sally was in the last game. Or the one before that. Or the one before that. In fact, the last game she was in was mine...and she was a cobbler.

McCaber

10-29-2008, 10:10 PM

Hm, it occurs to me that if those gentlemen I listed are too offended at being called "less fun", four of them could vote for me now and lynch me. :rolleyes:

Well gentlemen, shall we?

On a more serious note, I have no idea what my fellow quiet ones are thinking. I'm considering voting for one of them randomly to see how they react.

Or I could vote Eonwe, who looks something other than innocent. I'm rather torn.

Gollum the Great

10-29-2008, 10:16 PM

Well gentlemen, shall we?

Now that's an idea...

Well, I'm back.

And in addition to that I have no idea who to vote for (unless of course, Rikae ;)), but I'll try to be back later with a list of suspicions and things.

Brinniel

10-29-2008, 10:32 PM

To finish my analysis...

Fea: Focuses a lot on the rules and possibilities of the game, and doesn't gvie much input on other players until her vote post. That makes me uncomfortable. I also want to say that her comment yesterDay about the high chances of someone with a role accidentally spilling more info than others know is an excellent point...but it's also something I can imagine an evil Fea doing. I swear she's done something similar as a wolf in another game, I just can't remember exactly...

Greenie: YesterDay she seemed good and consistent. Then following along her posts toDay she started to feel more suspicious. Then I reread her posts and they don't seem very suspicious anymore. However, I don't like her vote for Gollum. Bah, I keep going back and forth...I just can't decide about her.

Eönwë: Has the second most amount of posts, but has very little substance within those posts (and I know I can safely say that when I can read majority of his posts from the post list without actually clicking on the link, they're so short). But then from my experience with playing with Eonwe, this is typical behaviour from him...which makes me think he's more likely innocent. Of course, I've never actually seen him as a baddie, so I don't know if he'd act differently or not.

Eomer: Seems to be consisent and sensible enough. He makes some good points about Kitanna...she can be quite sneaky (I remember once looking through her past games and I don't think she's ever lost as a werewolf).

Brinniel

10-29-2008, 10:44 PM

A list...

Suspicious:
Sally
Shasta

Slightly Suspicious:
Fea

No Idea:
Groin
Aganzir
Kitanna
Nogrod
Gwath
McCaber
Greenie

Not Suspicious/Leaning Innocent:
Rikae
Eonwe
Eomer
Gollum
Mac

Rikae

10-29-2008, 10:49 PM

Well, I'm off to bed... better cast my vote.

++Gollum

Gwathagor

10-29-2008, 10:50 PM

I apologize for my lack of involvement toDay. I have been occupied with last minute grad school application stuff, but I will be more active over the next several days.

I'll come back in time to vote.

McCaber

10-29-2008, 10:56 PM

It's Votin' Time!

++Eonwe

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 10:58 PM

Umm...Sally was in the last game. Or the one before that. Or the one before that. In fact, the last game she was in was mine...and she was a cobbler.

You may be right, it's just... whenever I see Sally mentioned, it's because she's "playing slightly differently than she usually does." It wasn't a point or anything, it just struck me as amusing.

I'm not certain about who I'm going to vote today. Agan looks better to me today than she did yesterday, going by just the feel of her posts and not the content. Rikae and Brinniel still look innocent to me (now Brinn is going to be even more suspicious of me :p). I don't really know what to think about Fea other than that it may be that she has a role we haven't ever seen before, and that that role is neutral in alignment.

I'm leaning towards Eomer at the moment. I don't know what to think about his attack on Kitanna... but now that I've typed this, it seems to me that it could be a display of ordo-ish boredom. Hmm.

I've seen a couple good points on Eonwe's participation (or lack thereof) today, and might be willing to vote him. I could vote McCaber without a qualm just to get a total unknown out of the way, and having never played with Groin or Gollum (as last game... doesn't really count), I don't really have a read on them other than "newbieish". Sally doesn't really ring my alarm bells today. Greenie, on the other hand, does, and as this post is turning out to be a stream-of-consciousness post, I think I may well vote for her. Mac is still a bit strange-looking to me, but between he and Nogrod, I think Mac is the more innocent-looking. Kitanna hasn't done much to ring my alarm, either. So...

Red Zone:
Eomer
Eonwe
McCaber
Greenie

Orange Zone:
Aganzir
Nogrod
Fea

Yellow Zone:
Mac
Groin
Gollum

Green Zone:
Kitanna
Sally

Blue Zone:
Rikae
Brinniel

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 10:59 PM

And the fact that I completely forgot Gwath was playing automatically puts him in the Orange Zone. McCaber's vote just now lifts him up into the Black Zone: it smacks of baddie bandwagon.

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 11:05 PM

Vote Count:

Greenie: ++Gollum (Gollum 1)
Eomer: ++Kitanna (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1)
Aganzir: ++Fea (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1)
Eönwë: ++Nogrod (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1)
Mac: ++Groin (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1)
Fea: ++Rikae (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1)
Kitanna: ++Eonwe (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1, Eonwe 1)
Rikae: ++Gollum (Gollum 2, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1, Eonwe 1)
McCaber: ++Eonwe (Gollum 2, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1, Eonwe 2)

Left to vote:
Shasta
Sally
Gollum
Nogrod
Groin
Gwath
Brinniel

Gollum currently to be executed.

Brinniel

10-29-2008, 11:06 PM

A quick vote count update:

Greenie: ++Gollum (Gollum 1)
Eomer: ++Kitanna (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1)
Aganzir: ++Fea (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1)
Eönwë: ++Nogrod (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1)
Mac: ++Groin (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1)
Fea: ++Rikae (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1)
Kitanna: ++Eonwe (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1, Eonwe 1)
Rikae: ++Gollum (Gollum 2, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1, Eonwe 1)
McCaber: ++Eonwe (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1, Eonwe 2)

Has not voted: Sally, Shasta, Groin, Gollum, Nogrod, Brinn, Gwath

Geez, spread out the votes a little much? I would've liked to vote either Shasta or Sally, but I can't see much point in that considering neither have been voted for yet and both are among those who haven't voted so far.

Anyways, I'm not gonna vote Eonwe or Gollum because I don't find them at all suspicious as of now.

EDIT: X-ed with Shasta's vote count

Brinniel

10-29-2008, 11:10 PM

Hmm...I've never heard of a blue zone before. :p

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 11:12 PM

I could vote: Eomer, Eonwe, Gwath, Nogrod, Aganzir, Fea, Greenie, or McCaber.

Aganzir, Greenie Gwath, Eomer, and McCaber have no votes.
Fea and Nogrod have one vote.
Eonwe has two votes.

I would really like to vote for McCaber though. Hmm.

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 11:13 PM

Hmm...I've never heard of a blue zone before. :p

It's my favorite color! :D And I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who totally forgot Gwath.

Brinniel

10-29-2008, 11:19 PM

And I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who totally forgot Gwath.
Oh whoops...like I said, he's flying under the radar.

Gwathagor

10-29-2008, 11:23 PM

I'm sorry! It's inadvertent.

Diamond18

10-29-2008, 11:28 PM

Deadline in nine minutes.

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 11:31 PM

So 12:37 am. Vote quick, people.

Gwathagor

10-29-2008, 11:32 PM

Ok, well.

It is difficult for me to cast an informed vote given my lack of participation, but I have been most consistently rubbed the wrong way by Rikae. I can point to specific instances that cause me suspicion, but there is certainly a large element of intuition involved in the vote.

++Rikae

I'll go back and compile a list of said instances, but for the present I just want to get my vote on the table prior to DL.

Gollum the Great

10-29-2008, 11:33 PM

Groin- nought to say.

Eonwe- many empty-ish posts, not a great deal to worry about, though.

Eomer- can't quite figure him out.

McCaber- even more absent then me. No decision.

Greenie- like others, I fail to follow her train of thought.

Gwath- hasn't said much to give an inkling of his true self.

Rikae- hmm. Not so sure about this heart. I'm still in the dark as to whether or not she was joking around yesterday (as regards Mac, at least).

Brinn.-now here I think we have innocence. Just from the aura of her posts, that is.

Oops! Going too have to cut this short. To save myself:

++Eonwe

Brinniel

10-29-2008, 11:33 PM

I'm surprised Noggie hasn't popped in and voted yet. It's not typical for him to not vote...maybe he overslept. Someone should wake him up. ;)

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 11:34 PM

Funny, I would have expected him to vote a long time ago. :(

satansaloser2005

10-29-2008, 11:36 PM

An update:

Just wanted to apologize for not being around very much toDay. It's been very busy, and I got quite ill this evening so I'm not up to par.

Which brings me to my next point. I don't feel comfortable voting toDay; I hope that's all right. I've been (sort of) reading the thread but haven't been comprehending a whole lot. Basically, I don't think it would be fair for me to shoot out a vote just for the sake of voting; it makes more sense to abstain for the Day and give myself a bit of a chance to catch up so I'll be better prepared (assuming I'm alive) toMorrow.

Sorry for being such a pain, and thanks in advance for understanding.

EDIT: x'd like wow, because I forgot to actually post this for several minutes. Heh I've been watching the game and totally forgot to submit this. Heh, the point of the post was so no one was waiting for my vote, and look when I'm posting this. *crashes*

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 11:36 PM

++Eonwe

Brinniel

10-29-2008, 11:37 PM

Oh for goodness sake. None of these contenders are anyone I care to vote for...so I don't think I will.

So I think I will vote:

++Fea

She was next up on my suspicion list after Sally and Shasta, and unlike them she already has a vote and therefore I have a better shot at making a difference and not just a throwaway vote.

EDIT: X-ed with Shasta

Diamond18

10-29-2008, 11:38 PM

Deadline time. Eönwë will die shortly.

McCaber

10-29-2008, 11:38 PM

++Eonwe

Who's the bandwaggon now?

EDIT: crossed with the DL

Shastanis Althreduin

10-29-2008, 11:38 PM

I thought about voting Gollum, but ultimately decided on Eonwe because... well, I'm probably X'ing with Di already, so I'll post why tomorrow.

Edit: X'd with Di and a very snarky, unreasonable comment from our resident inactive submarine. Land ho.

Diamond18

10-29-2008, 11:43 PM

The second Day on Not-So-Tempting Island ended in much the same way as the first. Eönwë, a chatty lad who spoke much whilst saying little, in the estimation of the group, was chosen for death. Shoved into a corner and grimly surrounded, he had nothing to say at the end in his defense. But when the knife was jabbed through his heart, no one wept or threw themselves at his feet. He died alone, unloved. How sad.

It is again Night.

The Living Lonely Hearts Club:

Groin
Aganzir
Kitanna
Gollum
Nogrod
Brinniel
Sally
Shasta
Gwath
Rikae
Mac
McCaber
Fea
Greenie
Eomer

Hearts Which Have Stopped Beating:

Diamond (Lonely Heart)
Lommy (Lonely Heart)
Legate (Lonely Heart)
Lalaith (Lonely Heart)
Eönwë (Lonely Heart)

Diamond18

10-30-2008, 11:44 PM

Late at night, a pair went skulking hand in hand towards Nogtod’s room. One held a dagger in hand, the other nodded grimly with determination in eye. But when they arrived at Nogrod’s door, something brought them up short. A figure slumped there, against the frame, clutching something to its chest. A floorboard squeaked under one miscreants' foot, and the figure leapt up, brandishing a mighty fire poker. They saw nothing but shadowy form, and heard a voice cry out, “Go! Go from this room! You will not kill tonight!”

They hid their faces and ran from the scene of their would-be crime.

Meanwhile, in another part of the richly yet tastefully decorated mansion, Kitanna lay sweetly slumbering in her bed. The pillow beside her was cold and ununsed. Two figures rose up on either side of her bed. One nodded to the other, and a dagger was plunged into the maiden’s lonely heart. Soon, she breathed no more, though she bled a great deal.

The morning found one dead body.

The Living Lonely Hearts Club:

Groin
Aganzir
Gollum
Nogrod
Brinniel
Sally
Shasta
Gwath
Rikae
Mac
McCaber
Fea
Greenie
Eomer

Hearts Which Have Stopped Beating:

Diamond (Lonely Heart)
Lommy (Lonely Heart)
Legate (Lonely Heart)
Lalaith (Lonely Heart)
Eönwë (Lonely Heart)
Kitanna (Lonely Heart)

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 03:07 AM

Uh... erm... what the...?

Well, firstly and foremostly: thank you ms/mr ranger! That was well done indeed! I hope I can help you in someway to pay back this - and let's hope I'm not going to help lynching you... It would be pretty pathetic. :rolleyes:

But to the questionmarks in the beginning there.

It sure is unusual that the name of the saved person is declared. Not that it should have any significance in this kind of a game. Or does it? I mean why to do it if it has no signifigance? It's just hard to see the point of revealing it was me one of the lover-pairs tried to get rid of. If I'm not totally mistaken the only thing that changes here is that the other team now knows the other one was after me - and you villagers know it. But what's the value of that information?

Okay. There's this: now both wolf-teams know I'm not a member of the other team. But I'm still not so sure about the value of that piece of information.

Anyway. It looks like I'm dead meat the next Night. Happily I have some time later today so I can try to make the best out of the little time I still have (and Mac can use his energies into the actual wolf-hunt as well... :p).

Secondly. The narration seems to make it quite plain that there are two teams of two going about their killing-business during Nights. And there is a ranger. Now what makes me wonder is that even if it looks like we are at the moment losing this game and losing it bad (just look at the list of the dead) the initial situation of there being just two pairs of baddies in a village of twenty puts the baddies into an almost hopeless position in the beginning.

A total number of four baddies in a village of twenty is kind of the average number but as (or should we now start pondering, if?) they are linked to each other it would be really bad for the baddies.

There is something wrong here.

But be it this or that way, we sure need to start pulling our act together now. Five dead innocents and no lovers caught. That's a bad performance. I'll be back trying to do my part later in to the Day.

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 03:41 AM

Okay. There's this: now both wolf-teams know I'm not a member of the other team. But I'm still not so sure about the value of that piece of information.Oops... faulty logic there. :o

The pair who tried to kill me can't be sure about my status but the other team knows I'm not one of the other team. Unless there is a third pair lurking somewhere.

A funny thought emerged. How about we have four pairs of lovers as in the first installment of this game but to avoid the terrible carnage there will be only two kills per Night. They might then kill in turns, two each Night, or then Di may randomise the kills like all four pairs send their kill to her and she then picks two of them or something...

That would mean we have 8 baddies and only 6 innocents around! :eek:

Looking at the bright side of it, we might start hitting the right targets with over 50% chances... :rolleyes:

Macalaure

10-31-2008, 04:32 AM

I'm still suspicious of Nogrod, but since he should be dead by tonight anyway, there is no point in going after him today. I hope nobody gets the idea to treat him like a known innocent.

Two pairs of lovers in a village of 20 is indeed nearly unfair - especially since the two couples can't win together (at least it was that way last time). Our moddess has hidden a twist somewhere, I'm sure. Maybe she decided to reveal little bits of information one by one.

A funny thought emerged. How about we have four pairs of lovers as in the first installment of this game but to avoid the terrible carnage there will be only two kills per Night.
I had that idea, too, and I think I mentioned it some time yesterday. Less carnage is good for us (though, actually, it's good for them, too, because they're safer themselves), but we can't make connections between the kills and the killers, giving us less information.

That would mean we have 8 baddies and only 6 innocents around!

The good thing is that only one couple alone can win. Even very few innocents have a decent chance to win against 8.

The idea that there are more people with evil intent than with good is scary, though.

I have a feeling we can actually learn something from tonight death this time. I'll go analysing.

Feanor of the Peredhil

10-31-2008, 05:04 AM

Jumping in to say good morning. I won't have time to do this properly until midafternoon, but I wanted to register my mixed up thoughts about Nogrod.

So here's what we know for sure from last night's narration: he's not the Ranger.

Okay... werewolf isn't being my forte this morning. I need to get ready for work and stop trying to think critically while it's still dark out. I'll see everyone this afternoon.

Macalaure

10-31-2008, 06:31 AM

Day One

Kitanna:

#80 - Comments on too much vengeance (me and Agan as example victims). Criticises Rikae and Aganzir for attacks on me.

#99 - Votes Rikae mostly for said attack.

#197 - Defends her defense of me to Nogrod by saying she just felt that way.

Awfully little, and the little she said was almost entirely about me. I thought at this point, that Kitanna might the seer and dreamt of me during Night One. That would have explained her focussing on attacks on her one known innocent.

Reactions:

#115 - Aganzir defends Kitanna from Gollum, saying that she had valid reasons to vote Rikae.

#116 - Nogrod looks for possible couples and finds Kitanna defending me. He's the first to bring this up. Lommy and especially Legate discuss it for a while over the next posts. Legate votes for her.

#187 - Gollum says she's fairly innocent.

#189 - Rikae dislikes the way Kitanna voted for her.

#196 - Brinniel brings to attention that Kitanna's vote was a cross-post.

#204 - Shasta thinks her vote is weird.

#207 - Nogrod votes Kitanna.

#212 - Shasta criticises Kitanna's defense validly.

#217 - Brinniel analyses Kitanna and finds her fine-looking, in #221 she restates her innocence.

Shasta and Nogrod look a little bad. Brinniel good.

Day Two:

Kitanna:

#247 - Thinks Lalaith was killed because she was quiet, Legate because he was believed to be a lover.

#312, #313 - Plans to look at Eonwe, Eomer, and Rikae. Makes a case against Eonwe.

#314, #318 - Analyses Eomer and is confused by him. Analyses Rikae and moves away from suspecting her.

#328 - Votes Eonwe because she wants to see what Eomer does tomorrow first.

Following my Kitanna-seer-theory, it's possible (from the lover-point of view) that she dreamt of Rikae, found her innocent, and made a case to justify no longer suspecting her. It's probable from her posts that her next dream would have been Eomer. Other lover might not have been in a special rush to kill her at this point.

Reactions:

#245+#253 - Aganzir doesn't know what to do with her, then calls her defense of me unsuspicious.

#266 - Eomer calls Kitanna's last post suspicious because it assumes the intention behind the deaths of Lalaith and Legate without much thought.

#300 - Shasta is confused by Eomer over this.

#297, #302, #303, #305 - Eomer continues on his earlier point to an unmerited degree. Admits that his suspicion is partly due to vengeance. Votes her.

#307 - Brinn doesn't know what to do with Kitanna.

#311 - Nogrod iterates his point about Kitanna's defense of me, adds her carefulness to it.

#333 - Brinniel acknowledges that Eomer points against Kitanna are good.

#338 - Shasta thinks Kitanna is innocent.

Brinniel's quietly moving away from finding Kitanna innocent is a bit shady. Nogrod keeps on harping on a connection between me and her. Eomer's attack is stupid (no offense) and highly suspicious. The way Brinniel acknowledged the quality of Eomer's point is suspicious, too. Shasta looks better.

----

I might be overstraining the idea, but my guess is that one lover team thought that Kitanna is either the lover of an evil Mac (as Nogrod and Legate thought), or the seer who wished to protect her known innocent on Day One. The combination of these two crucial things would make her a logical target, but why only this night and not the last? Not knowing the actual rules on the kills makes this hard to answer. It could of course be that Lover-Eomer suddenly realised his peril and felt forced to act. Usually, after his behaviour on Day Two, Lover-Eomer would never have killed Kitanna, but the fear of the seer sometimes makes a person act irrational. So far, I found Brinniel and her over-analytical approach very innocent-looking. The way she backed off of Kitanna and approved Eomer's point yesterday is suspicious, however. Maybe she hides behind her strict analyticism. Nogrod is of course the main culprit of bringing the possible connection between me and Kitanna to everybody's attention. I'm torn on what to think of it, but I will ignore it for now.

It is of course entirely possible that Kitanna's murderers have never said one word about her, but in that case I would have to suspect half of the village, and that's not effective. It is also entirely possible that the reasons for killing Kitanna were different, since she only suspected (among the living) Eomer (which would in fact make him look better now). For now, however, I'd rather effectively suspect a few on an assumption that might be faulty than keep on running around confused.

(edit: my, this is a quiet morning...)

Gwathagor

10-31-2008, 07:35 AM

Interesting points regarding Eomer.

At the end of yesterDay, I said that I'd explain my vote for Rikae, but I took too long doing it and so missed the deadline. Sorry. Here it is now.

At any rate - the person I find most suspicious right now is Aganzir. I've suspected Lommy too, but I don't like to lynch her on Day One...

Looks like a baddie trying to gain some credibility when Lommy would turn out to be innocent - oh dang, never mind, that's a terrible reason. Drat.

Just thought I'd pop in to say I'm working on a midterm that's due tomorrow, so I won't be able to contribute much, but I am following the discussion.
Groin, go read what I already said about that post, I see no need to say anything else. *shrug*
I do find myself wondering if the fact that no one has paid any attention to my increasing number of lovers theory means I've stumbled on the truth and those who know it are afraid to tip me off, assuming I know it too - but I suppose more likely you all just think I'm loony.

I don't like this post, because it forces us to assume she is innocent. I elaborated yesterDay.

Guess I should respond to Fea:

Yes, I've noticed, over the past two days, quite a few people dislike my approach to Mac. I disagree - I like it just fine, and I'm quite comfortable with it. I will most likely use it in the future, so you all are just going to have to get comfortable with it. :p

Man! I disagree! If somebody's arguments don't sit right with me, I'm gonna vote them! I don't have to just live with it.

So, um, I'm ashamed to say that upon further examination, none of these are very good reasons for me to have voted Rikae.
:rolleyes:
In conclusion, then: while I may intuitively find her suspicious, I can't yet do so on a rational basis.

Aganzir

10-31-2008, 07:36 AM

My guess is that this is more innocentish newbie behaviour...as a lover, I think his partner would advice him on how to contribute more and blend in so not to stand out.
I wouldn't say so. His behaviour, especially that question-avoiding attitude, reminds me of Gwath's first performance as a wolf. Also throwing around random suspicion which, when asked to elaborate, has no grounds, is a thing I have seen wolves do before.

I wonder why Agan was so keen on defending him???
I would call it neither being keen nor defending - I think I only said I want to hear more from Gwath before forming an opinion. I accused sally of her opportunistic-looking suspicions, and although Gwath's vote was a bit weird, I don't find it a sole reason to accuse someone of.
I don't think much can be even gathered from the votes, since if the baddies don't have a team (as they don't seem to have), they can vote with honest reasons as well.

My case against Gollum was probably longer and richer in content than all his posts that far. I gave him a chance to reply to me, and although he said he'd make a list of suspicions and things, he apparently didn't find my points against him worth commenting. I'm pretty positive I'm going to vote him today.

#245+#253 - Aganzir doesn't know what to do with her, then calls her defense of me unsuspicious.
Correction - #245 was the post where I summed up Lalaith's thoughts. It was she who didn't know what to think of Kit, not me.

I just came home from school and want something to eat. I'm planning to go and watch Der Baader Meinhof Komplex today, though, so I might be back only after that.

edit: xed with Gwath

Macalaure

10-31-2008, 08:13 AM

Correction - #245 was the post where I summed up Lalaith's thoughts. It was she who didn't know what to think of Kit, not me.

Oops, sorry about that. :)

Alright, I have to vote really, really early today, because I don't know whether I'll be able to check in again before the deadline.

Groin - is he actually still playing?
Aganzir - innocent
Gollum - would have gotten a share of my scrutiny today... if I had the time.
Nogrod - who knows, who knows...
Brinniel - that one point above is not enough to justify a vote for her, but I'm looking at her.
Sally - has escaped my attention today, but will hopefully not do so again tomorrow.
Shasta - no alarms
Gwath - merits a closer look, too, I think. There some kind of a bad vibe.
Rikae - innocent
McCaber - who can tell?
Fea - probably innocent
Lily - unsure, but tending innocent
Eomer - most suspicious-looking of the lot

++Eomer of the Rohirrim

McCaber

10-31-2008, 09:33 AM

It's quiet... too quiet. I'm not sure I have anything to say about the night. At least only one kill went down.

My question is who would have a reason to kill Nogrod? (I only ask about Nog because other people have done the Kitanna bit) I don't have an answer yet, but I think it's a worthwhile question.

Groin Redbeard

10-31-2008, 10:23 AM

Groin - is he actually still playing?
I know, I suck at this game. I've been focusing on getting my GPA up lately and have lost interest and time for this. I expect that this will be my last game so I'm just going to vote right.

++Rikae (she and Mac are lovers!)

Rikae

10-31-2008, 10:37 AM

We seem to have a smart ranger. I wonder if the ranger noticed what I noticed today. I certainly hope so.
On another note:
I did a double take at Nogrod's first post - I found it very hard to believe Nogrod would make such an error. I thought it had to be a bluff (although with the second post too, it borders on unsporting to feign ignorance in that way). If he's still alive toMorrow, he's going to look very suspicious (but since he probably won't be, meh).
Gwath, you can vote for me, but you can't stop me from playing the way I like. :p I'll throw jokes in wherever I feel like it, in this game, and the next, and the next... actually, I probably won't be able to play in the one after the next, but anyway. Actually, your second point about me is quite good, except that I'm not actually that clever. Or maybe I don't think you are all that stupid. Or something.
Macalaure is looking better to me, primarily because of his reactions to accusations and the fact that he seems more calm. However, I'm not going to completely trust him - lately his wolf skills have been improving in every game, and in the last, he was able to avoid his usual wolfish nervousness.
Gollum is on my reindeer in a major way and I may just vote for him myself. McCaber is also a nasssty little hobbit (these days, however, the idea of casting a vote for Mc-anything gives me the heebie jeebies (:p at Gwath)). Eomer and Brinniel both have somewhat of a sneaky feel about them - I'll look over their posts again if I have the time.

EDIT: X'd with Groin -now, that's lazier than lazy. If we really have so few baddies, we can afford to just lynch him and be rid of him, right? He may even be hiding beneath the lazy act.

Feanor of the Peredhil

10-31-2008, 11:08 AM

I assumed I'd take my exam, defend my term paper proposal, put together my midterm portfolio (and hand it in) and get back and be utterly mystified as to what's going on due to the flurry of activity I've missed.

Except I haven't missed much.

I found it very hard to believe Nogrod would make such an error. I thought it had to be a bluff (although with the second post too, it borders on unsporting to feign ignorance in that way).

I found that hard to believe as well, but I find it harder to believe that he'd sit around for over a half hour waiting to fake-correct his 'faulty' logic while at any point during that time somebody could come along and make him look guilty as sin.

Gwathagor

10-31-2008, 11:23 AM

Ok, ok! I had an idea during class. We might be able to figure out whether or not Nogrod is of the enemy.

Obviously, he is not a member of one of the two (am I assuming too much?) lover pairs - the one that tried to kill him. He may be part of the other group, though, the one that killed Kitanna. And, an analysis of his stance towards Kitanna while she was alive might help us figure out whether or not this could be the case.

I will make an effort to do this later this evening, if no one else does so first, but right now I have to go do some schoolwork that's due in a couple hours.

Also, at the risk of becoming a one-trick pony, I will defend Nogrod on YET another issue: I did not find his earlier self-correction particularly suspicious. I think it seems characteristic, well-intentioned, and honest.

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 12:05 PM

Ok, ok! I had an idea during class. We might be able to figure out whether or not Nogrod is of the enemy.
......
And, an analysis of his stance towards Kitanna while she was alive might help us figure out whether or not this could be the case.

I will make an effort to do this later this evening, if no one else does so firstOkay. Just don't use your energies on that, anyone of you. Try to be sensible, people.

I know it's easier to look at something that has been discussed a lot than try to figure out totally new openings, but sorry guys that's what we need to do now, to find new openings. We haven't lynched a single baddie and our numbers are falling rapidly.

Look: one of the lover-teams tried to kill me last Night and were denied it. Do you think they would pick a different victim for the next Night now as they know I can't be protected any more? Do you think they say: "Well, we missed a kill last Night as he was protected but toNight he will not be protected... hmmm, what to do? Heck, let's leave him be and let's risk another failure"? So I'm a goner already just on borrowed time to the end of this Day. I understand you have no reason to believe I'm innocent (though you should... :)) but that doesn't matter toDay. I know this may sound awkward but think about it and be reasonable: all the effort you spend on analysing or discussing me toDay is hurting our effort of getting a lover-pair for us which we need to start doing pronto.

I try to do what I can toDay. If you're not willing to trust me toDay you can look at my posts toMorrow with the knowledge of my innocence.

So let's concentrate on things that can actually help us.

And btw. it's like in great novels or movies that facing death one is able to speak his mind openly.

I admit I have been a bit careful with some people this far as I both like to play with them and I do know from experience that suspecting most of the people at the same time will easily lead one to a premature death. But now as the grave is already laid I can speak what I actually think with no self-preservation in mind and with no hope of getting a chance to analyse them better at some future date and to have fun with it then.

Shastanis Althreduin

10-31-2008, 12:20 PM

I agree that we should leave Nogrod alone for today.

BUT, I'm also finding Gwath's rabid defense of him to be... wacky.

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 12:35 PM

I'll start with the easiest one.I know, I suck at this game. I've been focusing on getting my GPA up lately and have lost interest and time for this.Now if he is a baddie it would be a stinking victory and I can't bring myself to believe Groin would be such a low level character.

So I'd say Groin is innocent and speaks honestly and his staggering amount of 6 posts kind of underlines the point he's making. So let's not lynch him.

Well, then I'm torn between the idea of going through all of the game or trying it some easier way... OMG, it would take ages to go through all of this...

Rikae

10-31-2008, 12:38 PM

Gwath, Nogrod's right - there isn't much point in looking at him - except in the strange event he's still alive toMorrow (after all, who knows what's going on here...). I just thought I'd mention something that jumped out at me.

Shasta... yeah, Gwath is wacky. I found his attack on me wacky to begin with, and his semi-retraction of it toDay more so. I don't see it as particularly wolfish, though... straightforwardly speaking, do you?

Oh, and since I seem to be in the position to be the first to mention it: happy Halloween, everybody. Even those of you in countries that lack it - I'm going to force this aspect of American culture down your throats! Mwahahahahahaha!

A Little Green

10-31-2008, 12:48 PM

So sorry, dearies, RL is keeping me more busy than I thought. I'll try to get time to read and post and vote, but am not at all sure I'll be able to. If no, then good Night to everyone - if yes, then we'll see later on toDay...

McCaber

10-31-2008, 12:56 PM

Rikae - Happy Halloween indeed. One more excuse for uni students to party against the law and maybe almost riot. I love my town.

Nogrod - if you can do that for everyone, you have my complete respect. Even for whoever you choose, that's a task.

One thing I find a small bit weird is Gwath. I can understand coming on strong to defend someone, but I think that's almost overkill.

Greenie - have a good night then, at least.

Feanor of the Peredhil

10-31-2008, 01:06 PM

Even those of you in countries that lack it - I'm going to force this aspect of American culture down your throats! Mwahahahahahaha!

Agreed. I'll need to vote early tonight since I'm being forced to attend a party for most of the night...

I just have no idea who to vote for.

Groin - assumed innocent
Aganzir - dunno. probably innocent
Gollum - absolutely no idea. reindeer. worrisome for that reason.
Nogrod - probably innocent
Brinniel - no clue
Sally - forgot she was playing
Shasta - no clue
Gwath - presumed innocent
Rikae - not sure, leaning toward not-so-innocent
Mac - rational, but i fear him on principle. could go either way.
McCaber - no clue
Fea - I know my exact role. I'm pretty cool, I assure you.
Greenie - no idea
Eomer - where are you, my dear? I'm going to kill you for being quiet pretty soon.

See, this isn't good. I think the entire village is either innocent or invisible.

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 01:09 PM

Nogrod - if you can do that for everyone, you have my complete respect. Even for whoever you choose, that's a task.I'm afraid I'm going to fall short on these expectations... :rolleyes:

I mean Groin was the easiest one as I said.

I'm getting similar kind of vibes from Greenie as well. The problem though is that we don't know how many baddies we're after here: four, six, eight? If eight, we should remember there would be more baddies than goodies around and so one should suspect everything that moves and especially everything that doesn't... :p

And with regards to Greenie I do have to look back before saying anything more definite about her for she has been one of those flying completely under my radar this far.

Luckily the baddies are after each other as well... unless there is some twisted scenario laid by Di working behind our - I'd say justified - beliefs...

EDIT: X'd with Fea... and yes, happy Halloween to all!

Gollum the Great

10-31-2008, 01:38 PM

Fea - I know my exact role. I'm pretty cool, I assure you.

Are you hinting at something or what? I'll take it your joking, though.

Like Fea, I really can't make up my mind. Either the players are not showing themselves, or I can't accuse them of anything for want of evidence. I keep one or two under observation, but that's as far as my suspicions go.

Oh yeah. Agan, what was your case against me? I didn't have time yesterday or whenever it was to search for it, and I don't now. If you could possibly lay it out simply, aside from your other 5,000 posts, it would be a great aid for me to go into it.

A Little Green

10-31-2008, 02:02 PM

Okay - I'm going to sleep in an instant and though I've read the Day through I have no time to really think about it... Again, I'm really really sorry for this. I promise to show my face more toMorrow if I'm still alive. Good night and Night and happy Halloween.

Brinniel

10-31-2008, 02:21 PM

Sorry...I've been reading through this thread throughout the Day, but I haven't had time to post until now. Though I notice posting's been rather slow...I blame it on Halloween. Lucky for you guys, I have no social life and will remain around for the rest of the Day for the most part. Yes I'm pathetic, but I suppose playing WW is a perfect way to spend Halloween. :smokin:

Will be back to post something of actual substance in a little while.

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 02:29 PM

I'll speak open my suspicions right now (no, I have not been reading through the whole thread or made a careful analysis on it). Let's see if they change or if I get any ideas to go and look for things from back there. It would help if some others posted as well...

I'll check the votes after this though to remind me of the key events and give me some perspective to these initial thoughts - even if the votes will not be so telling at this time as there is no one team and no baddies have been lynched yet... :(

Aganzir (53 posts)
She sure has been around and only for that we probably should leave her be for sooner or later no one will talk here. That said, I'm a bit inclined to think she is jumpy indeed like someone suggested earlier. I mean she really is careful to answer every single point made against her. A bit too interested that is? And there has been no heavy suspicions over her and she still is alive...

Shasta (31)
Interesting he has that many posts as I have no clear view of what he actually thinks about the situation.

Brinniel (27)
She feels calm and involved in a reasonable way. Maybe that's the reason I should suspect her?

Mac (24)
His rally against me yesterDay was just strange and the way he sticked to it was downright ridiculous. I'm aware of the possibility that there might be personal feelings involved as I know I'm innocent and he jumped on me on nothing. His insistence to speak it out aloud that he still suspects me toDay haven't lessened my suspicions as he is an experienced enough a player to see what the Nightly actions meant. Also the whole interaction between him and Rikae worries me.

Fea (22)
As I said on Day1 already, her helpfulness and business-likeness on Day1 looked worrying. After that she has gone back to her normal stuff - more or less. At the same time something bugs me and something tells me I should trust her.

Rikae (21)
I've been a bit worried about her all the game but she was one I decided not to discuss about for not gaining too many "bad feeling" votes on myself. I'm not so worried about her style like some seem to be, but more on her initial "pseudo-attacks" on Mac which have turned into some confidence. Were they a pair of lovers gamewise that would be perfect tactics this far - unless someone pointed it out for the other team to exploit.

Gwath (15)
I must agree with those who mentioned toDay that his speech for my innocence looks weird. I need no defence toDay as I will die the next Night. So a trial for the feel-good factor? I still can't get rid of my suspicion of his firstDay vote that was grounded with "she disagrees me about him". The only thing that makes me uneasy with my suspicion of him is that I have both suspected and voted for the innocent Gwath just too many times.

Sally (13)
One of my top suspicions still and I have made points about her already a few times. Her point of view just shouts a wolf. (Someone defended her yesterDay for that, saying people have said that a few games already... who was it? Have to check back for that if no one remembers it.)

Gollum (10)
His input is so awkward and slight that we might do well to just check him. In a lovers' game it might even pay off?

Greenie (10)
Hides under my reindeer as no one can. I have no idea about her. I really need to look at her.

Eomer (8)
As I said before, his Day1 appearance felt a bit too calculated and he hasn't given me too many reasons to think otherwise. Was it not for the fact that he only has eight posts I'd say let's lynch him immediately. But the passivity of him kind of makes me hesitate about it.

McCaber (7)
Talking about the quiet ones... he's one we should also check out. There's no saying about him. And just because of that he's dangerous. But this is not the first time he acts this way.

Groin (6)
As I said before, his explanation of his actions stated toDay looked sincere and I would not lynch him.

What?

No vote Greenie? :confused:
Well adds to my "if she's a baddie she does not deserve to win with that performance" eg. I tend to think her more innocent than not. Although looking at the numbers one would think innocents had more need to fight back...

I mean the question is this: who gives up in a way like that? Personal character and the general involvement in these games is a major factor but I won't go into them too much as I don't want to engage in that meta-game discussion we had yesterDay anymore. But in a situation like this, would it be an ordo who would decide just not to vote or one of a pair of lovers? That indeed is a question.

Gwathagor

10-31-2008, 02:47 PM

Look: one of the lover-teams tried to kill me last Night and were denied it. Do you think they would pick a different victim for the next Night now as they know I can't be protected any more?

Ok that's true.

Gwathagor

10-31-2008, 02:56 PM

One thing I find a small bit weird is Gwath. I can understand coming on strong to defend someone, but I think that's almost overkill.

It wasn't my fault! I wasn't even looking to defend him, but these thoughts kept presenting themselves in the most persuasive manner and I felt like I had to point them out.

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 03:05 PM

I'll be posting the voting-lists here so everyone can see them. Thanks to Brinn I only had to update the Day2 voting...

I have italicized the known innocents in the voting and underlined them from the final tally to make the tables more informative.

DAY1
Eomer: ++Rikae (Rikae 1)
Kitanna: ++Rikae (Rikae 2)
Greenie: ++Groin (Rikae 2, Groin 1)
Mac: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1)
Eönwë: ++Legate (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1, Legate 1)
Lommy: ++Eomer (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1, Legate 1, Eomer 1)
Lalaith: ++Legate (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1, Legate 2, Eomer 1)
Aganzir: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 2, Legate 2, Eomer 1)
Legate: ++Kitanna (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 2, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1)
Fea: ++Mac (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 2, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1)
Gollum: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1)
Gwath: ++Fea (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1, Fea 1)
Rikae: ++Aganzir (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)
Nogrod: ++Kitanna (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)
Shasta: ++Aganzir (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 2)
Brinn: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 4, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)
Sally: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 5, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)

Didn't vote: Groin, McCaber

DAY2
Greenie: ++Gollum (Gollum 1)
Eomer: ++Kitanna (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1)
Aganzir: ++Fea (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1)
Eönwë: ++Nogrod (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1)
Mac: ++Groin (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1)
Fea: ++Rikae (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1)
Kitanna: ++Eonwe (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1, Eonwe 1)
Rikae: ++Gollum (Gollum 2, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1, Eönwë 1)
McCaber: ++Eönwë (Gollum 2, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1, Eönwë 2)
Gwath ++Rikae (Gollum 2, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 2, Eönwë 2)
Gollum ++Eönwë (Gollum 2, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 2, Eönwë 3)
Shasta ++Eönwë (Gollum 2, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 2, Eönwë 4)
Brinn ++Fea (Gollum 2, Kitanna 1, Fea 2, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 2, Eönwë 4)

Didn’t vote: Sally, Groin, Nogrod, Lalaith

And to add something I had not noticed before...
I don't feel comfortable voting toDay; I hope that's all right. I've been (sort of) reading the thread but haven't been comprehending a whole lot. Basically, I don't think it would be fair for me to shoot out a vote just for the sake of voting; it makes more sense to abstain for the Day and give myself a bit of a chance to catch up so I'll be better prepared (assuming I'm alive) toMorrow.That kind of removes her as well aside from my top suspicions... :o (And if she's a baddie she does not merit the win. That's all I can say.)

Darn, I have already three "feeling innocents" from those not posting too much! We're doomed... :rolleyes:

EDIT: corrected Gollum's votes.

Brinniel

10-31-2008, 03:19 PM

(Someone defended her yesterDay for that, saying people have said that a few games already... who was it? Have to check back for that if no one remembers it.)
I believe it was Shasta who said it.

Speaking of Shasta, I'm still worried about him. Towards the end of the Day I was a bit hesistant about my suspicions of him, but then his vote looks suspicious. I need to keep an eye on him toDay.

Sally, I'm not sure about. We didn't get a lot from her and she chose not to vote yesterDay. I would like to hear more from her, but unfortunately it seems RL is keeping her away, as she stated in the admin thread. For that reason, I doubt I'll be voting for her...I just hope she shows up a lot more toMorrow.

While the protection of Nogrod cannot confirm whether he's innocent or not, I'm more inclined to believe the former. His initial reaction may have included errors, but he sounded honest enough. I think the squabble between him and Mac is more likely a back-and-forth between two innocents than anything.

I agree with Nogrod that Groin's probably an ordo. To just give up would otherwise indeed be rather unsportsmanlike.

But in a situation like this, would it be an ordo who would decide just not to vote or one of a pair of lovers? That indeed is a question.
That's a good question. I don't think we can really eliminate either possibilities. Though if a player missed a vote multiple times, I would start to doubt the idea of them being a lover.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

10-31-2008, 03:21 PM

In defence of quiet players, there's a whole lot of stuff posted in this game, and not much of it has been interesting. Especially all those early accusations -- "Oh, this is SOOOO suspicious!" -- that made no sense whatsoever.

Forget it. I'm not going to post lots just because you guys have some sort of prejudice. Historically I've been in between loudmouth and medium. Generally if there's a busy village, like this one, I'll shut up and let everyone else slaver away.

And also, like a few others obviously, I've been very busy recently. I'd just like to remind some people that a player is not obliged to post more than once a day in normal werewolf games. I think this game is the same.

Anyway, I've seen Mac's arguments against me and I don't see how it's worth my bother. Anything can look suspicious in this game. If he wants to believe that I pre-emptively slew the supposed seer Kitanna then let him. It's sort of far-fetched, though not a crazy theory.

Nogrod, I am calculating. Thanks for noticing. I like surviving past the first couple of days. :cool:

I'll post again soon with thoughts on last night's actions.

Gollum the Great

10-31-2008, 03:21 PM

Just pointing this out, Nogrod: In your Day 2 list you show me getting voted twice and then write me down as being voted once. I take it you just forgot.

Aganzir

10-31-2008, 03:25 PM

Mac, what are your reasons to think I'm innocent?

Oh yeah. Agan, what was your case against me? I didn't have time yesterday or whenever it was to search for it, and I don't now. If you could possibly lay it out simply, aside from your other 5,000 posts, it would be a great aid for me to go into it.
I think you should bother to find the posts I have accused you in yourself. I don't remember where they are so it's almost as big a job for me as it is for you. Besides how are you going to know who to suspect if you don't read their posts? Based on initial feelings on day 1?

I mean she really is careful to answer every single point made against her.
Because from my point of view points made against me are generally bad.

You're going to get a bit fewer posts from me today since I'm pretty tired and therefore slower than I'd usually be.

edit: xed with Brinn, Eomer & Gollum

Gollum the Great

10-31-2008, 03:30 PM

I think you should bother to find the posts I have accused you in yourself. I don't remember where they are so it's almost as big a job for me as it is for you. Besides how are you going to know who to suspect if you don't read their posts? Based on initial feelings on day 1?

I haven't got the time to search through 10 long pages for 1 case against me.

Gwathagor

10-31-2008, 03:31 PM

Actually, your second point about me is quite good, except that I'm not actually that clever. Or maybe I don't think you are all that stupid. Or something.

The reason it is a flawed point is that if you were evil, you still couldn't be certain that Lommy was not also evil, i.e. she could be a member of an opposing lover pair.

Gwathagor

10-31-2008, 03:34 PM

I haven't got the time to search through 10 long pages for 1 case against me.

If you don't answer people's objections, what reason will they have not to vote you? It would seem logical to defend yourself.

Feanor of the Peredhil

10-31-2008, 03:35 PM

I haven't got the time to search through 10 long pages for 1 case against me.

Anybody else put off by this weird exchange?

Gwathagor

10-31-2008, 03:37 PM

Just A Little.

Gollum the Great

10-31-2008, 03:37 PM

If you don't answer people's objections, what reason will they have not to vote you? It would seem logical to defend yourself.

Most certainly it would. But one objection is not enough for me to spend an hour or something reading, thinking, and writing. As a matter of fact, I should probably get off WW now and work.

Gwathagor

10-31-2008, 03:38 PM

But you've posted so little that that ONE objection makes up about a third of the extant scholarly opinion regarding you.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

10-31-2008, 03:40 PM

Just looking through yesterday's Nogrod-related posts. Trying to understand why he was attacked. I mean, Nogrod? Loud, always in your face, guaranteed to start trouble and get lynched Nogrod? Doesn't make sense. Has to be a reason.

I can't see anywhere where he gives an indication of giftedness. Maybe he was killed because he was onto Mac and A Little Green.

His post #311. He also suspects Kitanna but she's obviously innocent. An important point here is that neither Mac or Greenie garnered a vote on Day 2. Maybe those two lovers thought Nogrod had sufficient power to bring them down on the next day, so they could quietly do away with him while the coast was relatively clear.

And this has nothing to do with Mac's vote for me, before anyone claims it. :p I'm not looking so much at behaviour; rather building theories from the few facts we have. Lo and behold, Mac's name was right there in Nogrod's post.

Gollum the Great

10-31-2008, 03:41 PM

But you've posted so little that that ONE objection makes up about a third of the extant scholarly opinion regarding you.

Look, I'll do it, but not now.

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 03:44 PM

Just pointing this out, Nogrod: In your Day 2 list you show me getting voted twice and then write me down as being voted once. I take it you just forgot.Thanks for pointing that out. It is now corrected. I just copy-pasted Brinn's table and upgraded it with the last votes not realising there was a mistake there... those things happen...

Also I'm feeling better with Eomer after his last post.

[EDIT: meaning the second last... not that his last one was bad either even if I think speaking of one still living as a dead one feels pretty weird!!!]

Looking at Brinn's post - if it was Shasta indeed - I'd not be surprised to find out Shasta and Sally were lovers. Although Sally's actions toDay make her look more innocentish than not. But if she is the lover and Shasta is the werecreature that might explain it? Shasta has been rreeaally active this time with little to say... a mark of having something interesting to do and trying to involve oneself but not too happy to actually risk anything?

While the protection of Nogrod cannot confirm whether he's innocent or not, I'm more inclined to believe the former.Now why to say that? It has no significance whatsoever.

I can see it as a sign of goodwill or trust (and that's appreciated Brinn, if it be that, and that's an honest comment) but gamewise it has no meaning - unless it is that you are trying to create a general feeling about you "seeing already the innocentness" of the one innocent tomorrow gone - after you kill me the next Night that is? Okay, you're not the only one who has said that but check toMorrow all those who have done it.

EDIT: X'd with a host of posts -great, people are starting to play!

Aganzir

10-31-2008, 03:48 PM

I haven't got the time to search through 10 long pages for 1 case against me.
So you mean you haven't read those 10 pages at all, or have just skimmed over them, yet you suspect & vote people?

Here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=571364&postcount=241) and here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=571404&postcount=259).

edit: xed with Nog

Rikae

10-31-2008, 03:49 PM

Most certainly it would. But one objection is not enough for me to spend an hour or something reading, thinking, and writing. As a matter of fact, I should probably get off WW now and work.

Let me help you.

++Gollum

We have too many slackers in this game, and I don't agree with Nogrod that just because it wouldn't make an honorable win, they aren't evil - especially in that one's case.

EDIT: Somehow X'd with Gollum, Nog & Agan.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

10-31-2008, 03:54 PM

Oh dear. I see a dangerous bandwagon forming. Not that there are no points against Gollum but don't let today's voting be wasted. Pick your own vote; don't let others do it for you.

I think I'm one day away from making a list of all the villagers and typing my thoughts on each one. Right now... nah. I'd just be saying a lot of the same things, and that's boring. Let's just say that should anything happen to me in the night, my theory now of trying lynching Mac or Greenie is the most appealing to me. Otherwise, no real clue. Large villages are hard to get into, but I think on Day 4 things will get really interesting.

So I'll vote in a couple of minutes.

Feanor of the Peredhil

10-31-2008, 03:58 PM

Just looking through yesterday's Nogrod-related posts. Trying to understand why he was attacked. I mean, Nogrod? Loud, always in your face, guaranteed to start trouble and get lynched Nogrod? Doesn't make sense. Has to be a reason.

Not only was he attacked, but he was protected. It would be funny if he was also dreamed of, provided we have a seer-type role floating around. Not that I'm a proponent of the seer coming forward at this point to answer that question. Not unless you've got some useful information to give.

I'm thinking- he caught a few eyes at least. Maybe the lovers picked him because he was an easy kill: hard to trace somebody everybody's looking at. Much easier to ask questions about why a pair of lovers would want to kill Kitanna. Not that they're questions with answers, but can you see my point? If I was picking a 'wolf' kill, I'd pick somebody who'd cause harmless talk the next day. If I was Ranger, I'd pick the player it seemed most likely to me the 'wolves' would want. If I was Seer, I'd pick somebody I didn't think was going to die in the night. What good's a Seer dream of somebody who isn't alive?

Have Lovers games ever had Hunter characters? Could be amusing. Can you imagine a sort of Cupid figure chasing after bad guys in the night with a bow and arrow? It could be a sort of Romeo and Juliet thing: the Hunter dies and takes someone out with him. You know, Hunter's almost a lover role in itself. It would fit, in terms of theme.

Thoughts? The more I think on it, the more outrageous it seems, but hey... you never know.

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 04:03 PM

Let me help you.

++Gollum

We have too many slackers in this game, and I don't agree with Nogrod that just because it wouldn't make an honorable win, they aren't evil - especially in that one's case.I do agree with you about slackers and I'd like to see werewolf with only non-slackers on board as it would be much more interesting and fun that way when one doesn't have to just quess like in a lottery but one could actually try to figure things out about everyone with substantial posting. You know we agree on this matter.

But as it is my last Day here I must say it aloud: your vote is soo easy. Playing on a principle and getting out of the trouble early enough?

If my future were less clear I might have accepted that and even voted with you just to see a more "graspable" game on Days to come whatever the result... but now I'm inclined to point this out. Your voting record really bothers me Rikae. First you went with Agan but as you realised she hit you back you changed to Gollum and now you've done that two times straight.

Looks more like a baddie-Rikae than an ordo version of you... :confused:

EDit: X'd with Eomer and Fea

Eomer of the Rohirrim

10-31-2008, 04:07 PM

I wouldn't agree with that, Fea. maybe it's just a mentality thing. Kitanna seems a very sensible kill to me. She's so conservative in these games, so level-headed. A good survivor, which makes her a good potential lover.

Nogrod? That's Lynch Mob Town that way, dearie. Argumentative; the spotlight loves him; he's practically a cobbler for these lovers. Unless it was a great, great bluff... but I doubt it.

Rikae

10-31-2008, 04:10 PM

First you went with Agan but as you realised she hit you back you changed to Gollum and now you've done that two times straight.

Well, I'm insulted that you think I left Agan alone out of fear. I have my reasons for no longer thinking she's guilty.

Frankly, Gollum is irritating me.

Rikae

10-31-2008, 04:16 PM

Another thing:
how likely do you think it is that the seer hasn't already dreamt of me? I'm probably one of the top 3 or 4 seer dream picks by any way I figure it... which means, by going after me, a baddie has a chance of lynching a potential known innocent as well as a chance of causing the seer to defend me and reveal him/herself.
(Not to mention that if the seer dreamt of me and found me evil, there would be no reason not to reveal it and rid the village of half its baddies at once, assuming two pairs of lovers.)

EDIT: By "reveal him/herself" I mean tip the baddies off by being too obvious - not actually revealing.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

10-31-2008, 04:17 PM

I'm tired. Gan i' bed, ken?

I won't vote for Macalaure, purely because people would see it as a spite vote. Instead I will vote for the other person incriminated by my somewhat arbitrary Nogrod-theory.

++A LITTLE GREEN

I can't go with feelings because I'm sure Greenie is capable of displaying an air of nonchalance over any hidden evil. I can handle only so much suspicion based on feelings this early in the game. Nogrod was attacked, you have to ask why. Think about Kitanna too. Build theories around facts, don't just see the malice wherever you will.

Fully aware of the hypocrisy there relating to my vote on Day 2 ( :p ) but there's more to go on today.

Aganzir

10-31-2008, 04:18 PM

Oh dear. I see a dangerous bandwagon forming. Not that there are no points against Gollum but don't let today's voting be wasted. Pick your own vote; don't let others do it for you.
Eomer has a good point here but somehow it makes me feel a bit uneasy. I understand if you don't like bandwagons, but in my opinion we should also be able to see the benefits in them.
If this was a traditional ww game with a pack of wolves, I'd say Eomer was trying to discourage voting Gollum. But if he was Gollum's lover, there would be no sense in defending him in such a subtle way.

I have my reasons for no longer thinking she's guilty.
What exactly are those reasons?

edit: xed with Rikae & Eomer

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 04:22 PM

Well, I'm insulted that you think I left Agan alone out of fear.I wasn't saying that in fact. But you saw it wiser to not stir too much suspicion, which is wise. If you're a wolf or a lover that is.

Fea - and all others - let's remember there are at least two teams with different people in them. And possibly even four (as that would make sense in regards to the original setting).

Now on the first Night the lovers operated they picked Legate and Lalaith.

On the second one they picked Kitanna and me.

It would talk on behalf of two sides if the one pair picked Lal and Kit and the other targeted Legate and me. So they have targeted two good players who tend to be a bit low key and two who tend to be the loudmouths. That's what the baddies have tried so far. Whether it's consistency or not we can't tell.

Also: if there are more pairs it would get more complicated but the basic lines of choice do suggest there are two teams indeed - and maybe the thing is that their interrelation is something we don't know? Like that they know each other but can't kill each other or something. Well, who knows...

Gah... I seem to have X'd with a host of posts. Coming back soon....

Gwathagor

10-31-2008, 04:35 PM

Frankly, Gollum is irritating me.

Is that the only reason you voted him?

Gwathagor

10-31-2008, 04:38 PM

I understand if you don't like bandwagons, but in my opinion we should also be able to see the benefits in them.

What? How could there be benefits in a bandwagon?

Rikae

10-31-2008, 04:39 PM

Is that the only reason you voted him?
Nope, because he's been following other people's suspicions too much and being completely unhelpful, his only interest seems to be self preservation, and because he doesn't like rock music*.

*Yes, that last one was a joke. So there.

EDIT: X'd with Gwath. One reason that comes to mind is that a lot of people may find the same person supicious because that person is suspicious... :P

Feanor of the Peredhil

10-31-2008, 04:40 PM

What? How could there be benefits in a bandwagon?

If you know who's a bad guy and enough people vote for that player, the bad guys can't band together to save him or her. Sole benefit.

Gwathagor

10-31-2008, 04:41 PM

True. But that hardly merits Aganzir's use of the plural!

Aganzir

10-31-2008, 04:42 PM

I'm too tired to stay up any longer so I'll vote now.

++ GOLLUM

I would still be interested to hear his comments on my suspicions, but I'm not going to put off voting him yet another day just because he won't respond to me.

What? How could there be benefits in a bandwagon?
Firstly, you often need a bandwagon in order to lynch someone. ;)
Secondly, even if there's been a bandwagon, it's relatively easy to see who just jumped in without actual suspicions for the person in question, maybe so as to save someone else from the gallows.

edit: xed with Rikae, Fea & Gwath.

Rikae

10-31-2008, 04:48 PM

What exactly are those reasons?
It'll all come out in the wash.

I wasn't saying that in fact. But you saw it wiser to not stir too much suspicion, which is wise. If you're a wolf or a lover that is.
You were still suggesting I would. I've been around long enough to know Agan is a formidible player and one who will retaliate. Good or evil, why would I go after her in the first place if I didn't think there was a case (except, of course, to judge her by her reaction)?
And possibly even four (as that would make sense in regards to the original setting).
I'm not buying this theory (in part because the narration hasn't suggested it at all, and in part because I just don't see 8 suspicious people in this village.)
Fact is, since I think there are relatively few baddies among us, I'm kind of working under a mindset of weeding out those I don't want to see win with a submarine or clueless game and letting the seer do his/her work for the time being... especially since the vocal players who initially caught my eye are either dead or looking more innocent now.

EDIT: X'd with Fea, Gwath and Agan

Feanor of the Peredhil

10-31-2008, 04:53 PM

I'm kind of working under a mindset of weeding out those I don't want to see win with a submarine or clueless game and letting the seer do his/her work for the time being... especially since the vocal players who initially caught my eye are either dead or looking more innocent now.

Weirdly, I support this. I'd hate to lose to somebody who didn't have to do anything to earn the victory. Maybe it's just a pride thing.

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 04:53 PM

Another thing:
how likely do you think it is that the seer hasn't already dreamt of me? I'm probably one of the top 3 or 4 seer dream picks by any way I figure it... It's very probable indeed. In the last game Rune was the seer and only picked the quiet ones assuming the loud ones would talk themselves into trouble sooner or later.

So do not count on that - not to say of trying to persuade us of it - as different seers have different tactics!

But to be honest your point looks wolfy indeed...

which means, by going after me, a baddie has a chance of lynching a potential known innocent as well as a chance of causing the seer to defend me and reveal him/herself.
(Not to mention that if the seer dreamt of me and found me evil, there would be no reason not to reveal it and rid the village of half its baddies at once, assuming two pairs of lovers.)I must have missed something as this doesn't make any sense to me... What are you trying to say here? Sorry, but I just can't grasp this. To what are you referring to?

I understand that if you were a baddie seen to the seer (so not the lover but the actual baddie) the seer might come out and claim that fact openly - if you were just a lover wasn't it that you would be seen as an innocent only? But you are not a known innocent and no one has stood to defend you - and no one has tried to kill you either by Day or Night!

So where does all this speculation come from?

I'm getting really afraid of you Rikae - or at least very much baffled.

EDIT: X'd from #416

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 05:01 PM

I'd hate to lose to somebody who didn't have to do anything to earn the victory. Maybe it's just a pride thing.Supported 100%! The game needs to be played. Just sneaking around is not playing but destroying the game for those who'd actually wish to play as they introduce the totally random element into the game.

Sadly this is my last Day so I hope you understand I will also bother you who actually play. This is my last chance at this game game so I will have to try all I have time and energy to - and it includes suspecting you my dear fellow loudmouths... :)

Rikae

10-31-2008, 05:02 PM

Once agan, Nog, you're barking up the wrong tree - and I hate to see you wasting what's probably your last day here looking at me.

Different seers have different tactics - sure - but the majority tend to choose loud players who are considered dangerous or hard to read, especially when they attract a lot of attention, as I have done (on a slightly OT note, why am I everyone's "random" vote choice in this game?)
I understand that if you were a baddie seen to the seer (so not the lover but the actual baddie) the seer might come out and claim that fact openly - if you were just a lover wasn't it that you would be seen as an innocent only? But you are not a known innocent and no one has stood to defend you - and no one has tried to kill you either by Day or Night!
Di made a point of saying that there were no werewolves, that this was a "lovers game". I assume that means all our baddies are "lovers", and, to be any use at all, the seer can see them.
The baddies could also conclude I've probably been dreamt of, for the same reasons I can conclude it. Plenty of people have been after me by Day, every Day - where have you been? I hope the seer doesn't come forward to defend me, which was part of my point.

EDIT: X'd with Nog

Feanor of the Peredhil

10-31-2008, 05:03 PM

Sadly this is my last Day so I hope you understand I will also bother you who actually play. This is my last chance at this game game so I will have to try all I have time and energy to - and it includes suspecting you my dear fellow loudmouths... :)

The irony would be, of course, if the Lovers didn't actually pick you tonight as an effort to set you up.

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 05:06 PM

As you're around Rikae, what do you think of Mac?

I might vote him...

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 05:07 PM

The irony would be, of course, if the Lovers didn't actually pick you tonight as an effort to set you up.Haha! I'd love that kind of irony!!! :D

Set me up guys! Set me up! That's your best choice, believe me!

Rikae

10-31-2008, 05:11 PM

As you're around Rikae, what do you think of Mac?

I might vote him...

Like I said earlier, I've put him at a lower level of suspicion because he seemed calm and didn't overreact to accusations.
In addition, I'll also mention (sorry to bring in meta-things) that he's hosting a party tonight and hasn't really slept in two days, so when he turns up he probably will just vote (if that) and go to bed. I wouldn't want to go after him when he couldn't defend himself, personally.

Shastanis Althreduin

10-31-2008, 05:14 PM

I'm going to a Halloween party, and this will be my absolute last chance to get on the computer today.

++McCaber

Happy Halloween/Samhain, everyone. :)

Feanor of the Peredhil

10-31-2008, 05:19 PM

Speaking of parties, I decided to ditch the one tonight in favor of a few drinks and a scary movie with one of my girls. Creepy dead children, here I come.

Anyway, that essentially means I'll be around on and off until probably midnight or so.

Gollum the Great

10-31-2008, 05:23 PM

Ok. Aganzir, you suspect me because (from those two links)

1) I am wary of three people.

2) Because you seem to think I give weak reasons for being wary.

3) Because I considered you excited.

4) Because I voted Lommy because I didn't trust her. I got the idea (now I may be wrong) from last game that it is better to vote than not. I had almost no grounds to vote anyone else, and I could have voted you.

5) Because I seem to be going with the flow of the other players.

Are those your reasons for suspecting me? If you consider me to be going with the other players, I ask you how anyone can do that since the range of opinions and suspicions is so wide and varied. I see nothing wrong in considering you excited, being wary of 3 players, or of giving lame reasons for being wary (I mean, I didn't want to vote for those people).

If there is anything I left out, please notify me. :cool:

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 05:23 PM

In addition, I'll also mention (sorry to bring in meta-things) that he's hosting a party tonight and hasn't really slept in two days, so when he turns up he probably will just vote (if that) and go to bed. I wouldn't want to go after him when he couldn't defend himself, personally.Well, he voted already... :rolleyes:

Also I do dislike in principle that zero-argument of "let's not vote for someone who hasn't a chance to defend her/himself" as that might be a very convenient bluff to anyone - not to speak of the larger issue of people being able to only vote Americans or Europeans depending on the deadline!

I mean everyone should be guaranteed a right to vote the one they see as the most suspicious person whether that person is going to be online to defend her-/himself after the given vote or not.

Why should people with unconvenient deadline be immune to voting?

(I do appreciate the reasons you give for him not posting more toDay Rikae, but the question remains whether his inability to post more or later makes him more innocent.)

Rikae

10-31-2008, 05:29 PM

Well, he voted already... :rolleyes:
Oh, duh. *facepalm*
(I do appreciate the reasons you give for him not posting more toDay Rikae, but the question remains whether his inability to post more or later makes him more innocent.)
I didn't say that made him more innocent, I just said it was a reason for me not to go after him toDay.

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 05:45 PM

You also voted already Rikae...

So you were that confident with your vote - or are just a baddie feeling comfortable enough to wash your hands from the final decision, but interested enough to comment on things after your vote eg. meaning you could have voted later as well?

So why did youi vote already?

As an innocent I would leave my vote to the last possible instant if I knew I could be online after that moment. Well, if I actually knew who the baddie is I could vote earlier, but show me a case where an innocent villager is that sure that s/he could believe nothing coming would change her/his opinion - or do you dare to claim you know Gollum is a baddie!...

You never know when someone will fumble and totally screw her/his case so a reasonable person would wait and see until s/he has to retire as any post might break the scene.

Your actions speak strongly against your innocence.

Sorry...

Rikae

10-31-2008, 05:51 PM

Nog, please, if you find me that guilty, vote me and be done with it and go look at someone else before you run out of time. That's really all I have to say to you anymore.

Rikae

10-31-2008, 05:57 PM

You also voted already Rikae...

So you were that confident with your vote - or are just a baddie feeling comfortable enough to wash your hands from the final decision, but interested enough to comment on things after your vote eg. meaning you could have voted later as well?

Actually, I'm an ordo feeling comfortable enough to wash my hands of the final decision, but interested enough to comment on things after my vote.

As an innocent I would leave my vote to the last possible instant if I knew I could be online after that moment. Well, if I actually knew who the baddie is I could vote earlier, but show me a case where an innocent villager is that sure that s/he could believe nothing coming would change her/his opinion - or do you dare to claim you know Gollum is a baddie!...

Well, good for you. I don't do the same thing every day, every game, myself.
If we have, as I think we do, only 4 baddies who aren't even a team, I can afford a hasty vote.

But like I said above, if you find me so incredibly suspicious, please, go ahead. I'll even come out and say "I'm a baddie" if it will end your unhealthy fixation.
You said you were going to look at everyone, and I'd like to see you do that. If I am indeed a baddie, I'm certainly doing a good job of distracting you.

Rikae

10-31-2008, 05:58 PM

Also, Nogrod, have you ever suspected anyone but Mac or I since we started playing werewolf? Think about it.

Brinniel

10-31-2008, 06:01 PM

I can see it as a sign of goodwill or trust (and that's appreciated Brinn, if it be that, and that's an honest comment) but gamewise it has no meaning - unless it is that you are trying to create a general feeling about you "seeing already the innocentness" of the one innocent tomorrow gone - after you kill me the next Night that is? Okay, you're not the only one who has said that but check toMorrow all those who have done it.
So what, you're saying it's a waste of time for me to state my opinion of you just because you're a goner? I agree it's not worth analysing you...that'd be a waste of time. But I think it'd be silly to completely ignore you and not share any opinion whatsoever. :rolleyes:

These attacks towards Gollum bother me. Some of what Gollum says is flawed, but they seem more like newbie mistakes. It just feels to me that he's an easy lynch target- a scapegoat. I'm uncomfortable voting for any easy lynch targets because most often they turn out innocent.

I find Rikae's vote for Gollum and particularly how she's become fiery and put herself in a defensive mode eyebrow raising. Last time I recall her acting in this way, she was evil.

Rikae

10-31-2008, 06:02 PM

Actually, at this point, I'm so sick and disgusted with this game, and eager to have all the stupid accusations against me proven wrong, if I still had my vote I'd cast it against myself.
Nogrod, I think you're innocent, and I wish I could get you to snap out of this... obsessiveness. I mean, above you accused me of claiming Mac was more innocent because he was absent - you aren't even reading what you're responding to anymore.

Ok, that really is it. I swear, I'm not answering again.

EDIT: X'd with Brinn who spoiled my quadruple post.

Rikae

10-31-2008, 06:05 PM

I find Rikae's vote for Gollum and particularly how she's become fiery and put herself in a defensive mode eyebrow raising. Last time I recall her acting in this way, she was evil.

I suggest you vote me, than. You, Nog and Cabbie's "random" vote will tie me with Gollum, and, frankly, this game doesn't need me if it's as unbalanced as I think, and I'm more interested in proving you, Nogrod, etc. wrong at this poitn than in surviving where I'm no use anyway.

Rikae

10-31-2008, 06:15 PM

Incidentally, talking about easy targets:

1. Caling Gollum an "easy target" has been done already, it's becoming a meme, and it's a very convenient thing to say if he is likely to be lynched and Brinn knows that, at the very least, he isn't on her team.

2. Going after someone who's mad and fed up already, and who has been suspected by nearly everyone... now that's an easy target.

Rikae

10-31-2008, 06:20 PM

Brinniel, what do you think of Eomer? And what do you think of Aganzir?

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 06:20 PM

And possibly even four [pairs of lovers] (as that would make sense in regards to the original setting).
I'm not buying this theory (in part because the narration hasn't suggested it at all, and in part because I just don't see 8 suspicious people in this village.)That would be exactly the reaction of a baddie in here. Let's just lull us to the false security there are only two pairs of lovers - both killed when one is killed - in a village of twenty! Do you really believe we will believe that?

We must have had a graver starting point and the posssibility of different teams getting their kills through each Night is a possibility... or whatever it is. But Di would not have started a game of twenty people with only two tied-together pairs of lovers against a village of 16 with at least a ranger to protect them...

And you do not see eight suspicious people in the village? I see you all suspicious for various reasons! As an innocent I do not know the status of you others and I can't help thinking all of you suspicious. And even if I think Groin innocentish I'm not sure or easy with that thought either...

These attacks towards Gollum bother me. Some of what Gollum says is flawed, but they seem more like newbie mistakes. It just feels to me that he's an easy lynch target- a scapegoat. I'm uncomfortable voting for any easy lynch targets because most often they turn out innocent.

I find Rikae's vote for Gollum and particularly how she's become fiery and put herself in a defensive mode eyebrow raising. Last time I recall her acting in this way, she was evil.Exactly my thoughts!

I know I'm being afterwise in this, but that was exactly my thoughs on you guys lynching Eönwë as well. Too easy.

If one of you McCaber, Gollum or Shasta is innocent you should be ashamed of your actions. Not that you voted wrong - all of us do it - but because you went for the easy target trying to lay low...

I suggest you vote me, than. You, Nog and Cabbie's "random" vote will tie me with Gollum, and, frankly, this game doesn't need me if it's as unbalanced as I think, and I'm more interested in proving you, Nogrod, etc. wrong at this poitn than in surviving where I'm no use anyway.Hadn't you used that kind of tactics of appealing to our integrity looking like a hurt individual already before in this game of WW earlier I would take you for real and stand back thinking "this lady is honest". Sadly you have already used that card while being a baddie - and you fooled most of the people then - so I will not take any of that kind of appeal from you (sorry about the meta-talk).

Rikae

10-31-2008, 06:38 PM

One thing you can't help but see living in the US, is that there are brands of religious fanaticism where a person becomes incapable of hearing or seeing anything but their own dogma.

I learned long ago not to waste my time talking to fanatics.

Feanor of the Peredhil

10-31-2008, 06:40 PM

Good heavens, you two, has this become a feud?

Brinniel

10-31-2008, 06:47 PM

Suspicious:

Sally: My opinions of her haven't changed much since yesterDay, though her chosen no-vote makes her slightly less suspicious. But only slightly. Since she hasn't been around toDay I can't really say much else. I won't vote her simply because I want to hear more from her.

Shasta: Has also made much less of an appearance toDay. I don't know...a lot of his comments and actions have made me think him suspicious, though I admit there's a little tiny part of me that's hesitant.

Rikae: I don't know what to with this behaviour she's suddenly switched to. It's almost like someone set off this ticking bomb. Her defensiveness definitely bothers me. And now she has this "fine, lynch me" attitude...which seems like reverse psychology to me.

Not Sure:

Aganzir: Still nothing about her alarms me. Her vote for Gollum seems reasonable enough due to the posts leading up to the vote. Still, part of me is slightly worried about her...just because I know she can turn into quite the nasty character.

Gwath: Still falling under my radar. He makes a lot of very short and simple comments, though nothing feels sinister about them. However, I would like to hear him say more.

McCaber: Has fallen under my radar. He has said so little, but still seems to be trying to actively participate. I wonder if I should be worried about him.

Fea: Still not sure about her. I like the posts she's made toDay though, which has made me relax my suspicions of her.

Eomer: Seems very relaxed...I don't know if that should make me more suspicious or less suspicious of him. Right now I'm going back and forth.

Innocentish:

Groin: His lack of effort towards this game makes me think he's more likely innocent.

Gollum: Looks like innocentish newbie behaviour to me. Like I said, an easy target.

Nogrod: His posts really do feel honest and open, even if I do disagree with some of the things he's been saying.

Mac: Hasn't said much toDay, but nothing that he has said has made me change my thoughts on him. While I don't like his attacks on Nogrod, I think it's more likely an ordo on ordo scuffle. Also, I doubt a lover Mac would bother to even point out his suspicions of Noggie when he's most likely to die in the Night anyway.

Greenie: Her choice to not vote makes me think she may be more likely innocent. I just think that an evil Greenie would at least vote, even if she didn't post much else.

EDIT: X-ed since Page 12 began

Feanor of the Peredhil

10-31-2008, 06:47 PM

Mac: ++Eomer (Eomer 1)
Groin: ++Rikae (Eomer 1, Rikae 1)
Rikae: ++Gollum (Eomer 1, Rikae 1, Gollum 1)
Eomer: ++Greenie (Eomer 1, Rikae 1, Gollum 1, Greenie 1)
Agan: ++Gollum (Eomer 1, Rikae 1, Gollum 2, Greenie 1)
Shasta: ++McCaber (Eomer 1, Rikae 1, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1)

I'm worried about votes being spread so much.

Macalaure

10-31-2008, 06:51 PM

Alright, made it back in time. Just one post with a couple of comments until I'm off to bed.

Mac (24)
His rally against me yesterDay was just strange and the way he sticked to it was downright ridiculous. I'm aware of the possibility that there might be personal feelings involved as I know I'm innocent and he jumped on me on nothing. His insistence to speak it out aloud that he still suspects me toDay haven't lessened my suspicions as he is an experienced enough a player to see what the Nightly actions meant. Also the whole interaction between him and Rikae worries me.

Oh dear... I don't even know where to start with this, it's that ridiculous.

1. Stop harping on "personal feelings" and such. I know I suspect you frequently, and I am trying not to, but that has nothing to do with anything being personal. I just always find something suspicious about you, I honestly can't help it. ;)

2. I did not jump on you on nothing. I made one meager point against you, like I made several against others as well, and you responded with an illogical overreaction. That was what I jumped on then, and I don't see anything wrong about it.

3. Why shouldn't I mention that I still suspect you? I didn't waste my time making more points against you. If you were proven innocent I would have excluded you from my analysis of Kitanna, but you aren't. You were in it, if just for completeness' sake.

4. The nightly actions mean that you're (no matter if innocent or not) likely dead tonight, so it makes no sense to waste time on points against you. I did not do that more than it was necessary.

Nogrod, either you are evil (though that needn't bother the village anymore now), or you are losing your objectivity regarding me. If you're innocent, I can understand why you're annoyed at me, but please, take a step back and see reality again.

Mac, what are your reasons to think I'm innocent?

While I try to make logical cases on why I think somebody's guilty, I give out the label "innocent" almost exclusively on feeling. Your behaviour just strikes me as very innocent, that's all.

Dear me! Rikae, Nogrod, relax! This is just a game. :rolleyes: :(

satansaloser2005

10-31-2008, 06:55 PM

Posting during an extremely short break, just to say....

What the heck? Nog and Rikae are....just....insane. Well, I suppose Rikae more than Noggie (from my extremely quick breezethrough, so I may have missed something) but still. Wow.

Crap. A group's coming through. Gotta go.

Rikae

10-31-2008, 06:59 PM

Not reverse psychology, Brinn - I can see I'm doing nothing but distracting the village and providing a scapegoat for what are likely some people with bad intentions. If I'm lynched and proven innocent, I may just be more helpful than I am alive.

Incidentally:

Caramel Apples and Cider:
Shasta
Aganzir
Rikae
Gwath
Mac
Nogrod

Rotten Eggs and Toilet Paper:
Sally
McCaber
Brinniel
Fea
Eomer
Groin
Gollum
Greenie

Rikae

10-31-2008, 07:06 PM

Hm, I guess I'll try to explain this, even though it's probably useless, at least for the sake of future games:

sure, I've gotten fed up and frustrated as a baddie (I've also done so as an innocent). It was not a "tactic", even when I was evil. It was genuine frustration, because someone was saying something I found utterly dense (if I recall correctly, it wasn't even an attack on me at the time).
I mind being lynched less than I mind feeling like I'm surrounded by incomprehension and absurdity. Yeah, I know that doesn't help the village, and I should stop it.

Macalaure

10-31-2008, 07:07 PM

1. Stop harping on "personal feelings" and such. I know I suspect you frequently, and I am trying not to, but that has nothing to do with anything being personal. I just always find something suspicious about you, I honestly can't help it. ;)

Ack, I just noticed that I read the "personal feelings" part in Nogrod's post completely wrong. Just ignore that part of my post (and make the entire reply less sharp, please), it makes no sense and I would delete it if I could.

Rikae

10-31-2008, 07:25 PM

Mac - since you're here, and reasonable, and probably innocent to my mind:

Go look over the day's posts. There is something someone said earlier which explains why I've been saying some of the admittedly odd things I have. When you find it (as I'm sure you can) tell me what, in your opinion, should be done about it.

Feanor of the Peredhil

10-31-2008, 07:26 PM

Rikae, you make me giggle. You and Mac are starting to seriously resemble me and the phantom.

McCaber

10-31-2008, 07:31 PM

Rikae, your tirades make you seem frustrated but innocent. I've seen the emotional evil Rikae, and that's not what's coming across. I'm not sure what you meant by my "random" vote, but it won't be spent on you. I'm not sure who gets my vote yet, but as far as I can tell you and Nogrod are the next thing to innocent.

Now I just need to find out who looks deserving to die.

Rikae

10-31-2008, 07:38 PM

Mac, do you remember the song I used to flirt with you the first time in a PM title?

EDIT: Sorry, McCaber, I meant Groin's vote.

McCaber

10-31-2008, 07:39 PM

I also just wanted to say thank you for increasing the level of conversation since the first half of the day. There's not much more depressing than waking up and discovering all of five new posts in the eight hours you slept.

Gollum is another one who I'm not considering voting for. Lack of posts in his case looks more newbish/lack of time than suspicious.

EDIT: crossed with Rikae's nonsensical post.

Macalaure

10-31-2008, 07:45 PM

Go look over the day's posts. There is something someone said earlier which explains why I've been saying some of the admittedly odd things I have. When you find it (as I'm sure you can) tell me what, in your opinion, should be done about it.

I just did look over today's posts again, but I don't know what you're referring to. I assume there's a reason why you can't be any plainer. :(

Rikae

10-31-2008, 07:47 PM

I just did look over today's posts again, but I don't know what you're referring to. I assume there's a reason why you can't be any plainer. :(

Oh well, if you can't find it, maybe I was wrong about it in the first place. I hope so, because I've probably drawn too much attention to it now.

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 07:55 PM

Don't you now make a mountain out of a molehill... and everyone calm down.
(And Mac, I'm not reading anything personally so don't you worry...)

Not all of you have played with us enough. I mean this is, if not normal, still something that is nicely within the bounds.

Rikae once almost fooled a whole village by going "personal". That's no news. And as I said, she used that card then looking like a gravely hurt person. Now she has no option with the same card in my eyes - and should not have that chance with anyone familiar with that game either - or anyone. Sorry Rikae, but some options can be used only once: trying them another time will just call for lack of confidence. I mean she really looked credibly personally hurt in that game and tried to exploit it that way... and to all of you who will think "but this is different" I will just say she was even more convincing that time... this is nothing compared to it. (well she didn't say she was about to commit a suicide but it was not far from that... :rolleyes:)

Although I must say I raise my hat (had I one!) to your last try where you put me in the good side. I know you are able of that but at the same time it actually makes me more wanting to vote for you just to get rid of one baddie.

Nogrod, either you are evil (though that needn't bother the village anymore now), or you are losing your objectivity regarding me. If you're innocent, I can understand why you're annoyed at me, but please, take a step back and see reality again.Had you not said that, I might have done exactly as you proposed... I mean I was really rethinking your role in this game but that kind of warned me again about you again. Reasonableness and calmness are signs of wolvery as well as panic and frustration. It depends on the person...

The way you portray the situation makes me wawer even if you're right with the fact that my "objectivity" with you is going farther down the drain... I mean just look at your initial points or your later elaborations of them and think again! But let's not discuss it here. We have better things to do. We should have a good friendly discussion though, but that should take place after this game.

(And please remember Mac, that I'm not annoyed at you. I may have been annoyed at the way you played yesterDay but that's a different thing... and if you're a baddie that was just pure excellence!)

EDIT: Oops, a lot of posts in between the last one I saw...

Rikae

10-31-2008, 08:02 PM

Sorry Rikae, but some options can be used only once: trying them another time will just call for lack of confidence.

You seriously think that, if it was a "card" I "played", I would actually do it again? I'm telling you, it's my personality. It's no reason to consider me innocent, I'll grant you, but it's also no reason to consider me guilty.

Brinniel

10-31-2008, 08:07 PM

Rikae certainly does confuse me. She seems frustrated to the point where she's no longer making sense...but that could point to innocence or guilt. Right now I'm more suspicious than not because as Nogrod said, she's pulled this off before as a baddie and I don't want to fall for a bluff. Then again, a small part of me doubts my suspicion.

So far out of all the candidates, Rikae is most likely the one I'll be voting for unless something drastically changes. Because while I do have a bit of doubt, I worry that I'll later regret if I don't vote her. And anyway, simply knowing her role will give me a sigh of relief rather than just be left wondering..

Macalaure

10-31-2008, 08:08 PM

We should have a good friendly discussion though, but that should take place after this game.
That is a wise suggestion. :)

Rikae, I think I have two theories about what you might mean. Unfortunately, they're complete opposites and neither could possibly be discussed here openly, not to mention how should be acted in either case. I guess we'll just have to see what's going to happen now.

Oh, and even though I have rarely guessed Rikae's role correctly in the past, I'm pretty sure that we're dealing with an innocent Rikae this time. And, yes, that is her personality, and the fact that it comes through genuinely and not distorted makes me feel quite confident with my judgement.

Rikae

10-31-2008, 08:15 PM

Mac, of your two theories, do you consider one of them true? And, if that one were true, would it be best to attempt to preseve all possible advantages, or sacrifice one smaller advantage for the sake of the greatest one, do you think?

Also - see, it is my personality (and doesn't that make you all feel very sorry for Mac? :D)

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 08:18 PM

Oh, and even though I have rarely guessed Rikae's role correctly in the past, I'm pretty sure that we're dealing with an innocent Rikae this time. And, yes, that is her personality, and the fact that it comes through genuinely and not distorted makes me feel quite confident with my judgement.Should I trust you with this one? You're making a compelling argument - sadly it's a meta-argument you were sooo morally opposed to yesterDay... and tried to lynch me because of that...

You guys are wolves... I'm not sure if you're lovers together, probably not...

But this starts to be enough evidence. Not to count your safe and early votes.

I'll make one last look at people - don't forget I'd be more than happy to vote for those not actually playing to ease your task toMorrow. But I have to think about it for a while.

EDIT: X'd with Rikae... and surely feeling sorry for Mac... ;)

Macalaure

10-31-2008, 08:24 PM

sadly it's a meta-argument you were sooo morally opposed to yesterDay... Yeeeah, this kind of got out of hands here. I'm sorry about it. :(

Rikae: always go for the greatest advantage. In a game, at any rate.

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 08:29 PM

Yeeeah, this kind of got out of hands here. I'm sorry about it. :(Welcome to the club of the apologizers! :D

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 09:06 PM

Rikae: always go for the greatest advantage. In a game, at any rate.That did it...

Rikae = a baddie
Macalaure = a baddie

But they are not on the same side. I quess Rikae's team is the one that was responsibole for the deaths of Lal and Kit and Mac's team killed Legate and tried to kill me. Unless there are two more teams which kind of makes this speculation anew... and which I believe in.

But that doesn't change the basic point: they both have made their mark and have been remarkably vocal even if the timezones have been unfriendly (to Mac at least) toDay. The early voting compared with their increased activity after that is just one thing.

Here's what I think of the next ones:

Innocent
Groin
Sally

possibly innocent
Greenie

These because of what they have stated about their situation.

If one of them is a part of a lover team I just hope they will have a bad conscience and they will not enjoy their possible victory as much as they'd do if they'd played it clean...

Winning the foul way is not winning. This game is about speaking and trying to decipher what others say - not of saying "I have RL obligations and won't be around".

My concern over yesterDay's voting is that Eönwë-bandwagon. It really looked like picking the easiest possible lynchee. Now Kitanna who gave him the first vote is a known innocent but the last minute ones were:

McCaber
Gollum
Shasta

I'd bet a lot for there being at least one baddie in there trying to take the easy road.

McCaber seems to be the submarine.
Gollum seems to be the follower.
Shasta seems to be the flood-poster with not much to say.

It's very had to discern, not to say pick between them. But we have a baddie in there!

Shasta and Sally might be a team?

Otherwise Sally looks innocentish by her posting on Day1 and 2 not withstanding. Today she makes a believable explanatin of her absence. Either one would chose might tell us things.

I suspect Gwath. His Day1 voting was just terrible (the reason is given earlier) and Day2 it was questionable. But toDay he has been most smooth, defending my points to a downright excess...

Aganzir could be a baddie or then not. As I said before, she has been a bit jumpy indeed but I would leave her to you to decide. Well she has more than twenty posts more than anyone else in here... would that read a baddie? Yes she could be one!

Brinniel looks as reasonable as a she seems. And that's reason enough to suspect her? Kind of roght that is.

Fea is still an enigma to me.

Eomer we probably should lynch. Just to be on the safe side... He's a bit too careful...

Gollum the Great

10-31-2008, 09:21 PM

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 09:24 PM

++ Rikae

If she is not a baddie - or if she is - we should then lynch Mac... :)

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 09:27 PM

But taking these words from one who appears innocent, I vote:Don't do that! On those grounds... Well you did...

Maybe he should be voted out just because of the way he plays?

Gollum the Great

10-31-2008, 09:30 PM

Don't do that! On those grounds... Well you did...

Maybe he should be voted out just because of the way he plays?

What's wrong with doing that, Nogrod? I couldn't make up my mind otherwise.

Now to bed.

Feanor of the Peredhil

10-31-2008, 09:31 PM

++Rikae

I have to, love. I'm sure you understand. Before today I found you suspicious, but I might have concentrated elsewhere. Today, though? With the code-talk with Mac and the twitchy reactions to everything? I can't not.

Nogrod

10-31-2008, 09:38 PM

Mac -> Eomer
Groin -> Rikae
Rikae -> Gollum
Eomer ->Greenie
Aganzir -> Gollum2
Shasta -> McCaber
Gollum -> Rikae2
Nogrod -> Rikae3
Fea -> Rikae (Rikae4, Gollum2, Eomer1, Greenie1, McCaber1)

What's wrong with doing that, Nogrod?You should use your own reason... not borrow it from others...

McCaber

10-31-2008, 10:06 PM

Well that was certainly interesting. I think the only thing that needs to be said is

++Macalaure

Ordinarily it would be Rikae all the way, but I promised not to do so this round. Ah well.

satansaloser2005

10-31-2008, 10:46 PM

++Rikae

I'll (hopefully) explain in a bit. Currently cleaning up, if you're interested, so I should be back before DL but mehbe not. See you when I get back.

Brinniel

10-31-2008, 11:13 PM

Sorry....I got caught up in watching cheesy slasher films, heh.

I haven't voted yet...so I should, even though it's pretty obvious what the outcome will be.

++Rikae

I apologise Rikae if you are actually telling the truth, but as of now I just don't believe you are.

Gwathagor

10-31-2008, 11:32 PM

That did it...

Rikae = a baddie
Macalaure = a baddie

But they are not on the same side. I quess Rikae's team is the one that was responsibole for the deaths of Lal and Kit and Mac's team killed Legate and tried to kill me. Unless there are two more teams which kind of makes this speculation anew... and which I believe in.

But that doesn't change the basic point: they both have made their mark and have been remarkably vocal even if the timezones have been unfriendly (to Mac at least) toDay. The early voting compared with their increased activity after that is just one thing.

I don't follow your reasoning. They spoke of making sacrifices, but in this game, it's all or nothing for the baddies. If one dies, both die.

Oh, and even though I have rarely guessed Rikae's role correctly in the past, I'm pretty sure that we're dealing with an innocent Rikae this time. And, yes, that is her personality, and the fact that it comes through genuinely and not distorted makes me feel quite confident with my judgement.

I am going to take Mac at his word this time. Hopefully I'm not being stupid.

++Shastanis

I realize it won't make any difference at this point. I also hope this doesn't seem like too much of a throwaway vote. I really honestly mean to look more closely at Shasta tomorrow.

Diamond18

10-31-2008, 11:52 PM

I have arrived. Rikae's death in a bit.

Diamond18

11-01-2008, 12:02 AM

Rikae was, to date, the most popular choice for a lynching. The Lonely Hearts, growing weary of all this heart stabbing, decided to push her off a balcony for a change of pace. They watched as she plummeted down, breaking her body upon the heart shaped cobblestones. Once again, there was a decided lack of concern over her demise. She had no lover.

Somewhere, far off, Venus was laughing.

The Living Lonely Hearts Club:

Groin
Aganzir
Gollum
Nogrod
Brinniel
Sally
Shasta
Gwath
Mac
McCaber
Fea
Greenie
Eomer

Hearts Which Have Stopped Beating:

Diamond (Lonely Heart)
Lommy (Lonely Heart)
Legate (Lonely Heart)
Lalaith (Lonely Heart)
Eönwë (Lonely Heart)
Kitanna (Lonely Heart)
Rikae (Lonely Heart)

Diamond18

11-01-2008, 11:30 PM

In the dark of the cold, cold night two figures crept through the cold, nighty darkness with murder in their not-so-lonely-hearts. They arrived at Aganzir’s door, only to be driven away by one who was intent on her protection.

Meanwhile, elsewhere, Macalaure was not so lucky. When the bells tolled, they tolled for him. He was found the next morning, suffocated with a pillow, and while the Lonely Hearts were not happy to see another one bite the dust, none were especially devastated by his death. If you know what I mean.

Day 4 dawns. Discuss amongst yourselves.

The Living Lonely Hearts Club:

Groin
Aganzir
Gollum
Nogrod
Brinniel
Sally
Shasta
Gwath
McCaber
Fea
Greenie
Eomer

Hearts Which Have Stopped Beating:

Diamond (Lonely Heart)
Lommy (Lonely Heart)
Legate (Lonely Heart)
Lalaith (Lonely Heart)
Eönwë (Lonely Heart)
Kitanna (Lonely Heart)
Rikae (Lonely Heart)
Macalaure (Lonely Heart)

satansaloser2005

11-01-2008, 11:41 PM

When the bells tolled, they tolled for him. He was found the next morning, suffocated with a pillow, and while the Lonely Hearts were not happy to see another one bite the dust, none were especially devastated by his death. If you know what I mean.

Just wanted to say that SO much about this narration cracked me up. Job well done yet again, love. Now get some sleep.

Alternatively, I'm loving, loving, LOVING our Ranger right about now. Two successful saves in a row. Wow. Kudos.

I need to do some reading to catch up on things. I'll probably come up with a handy dandy vote tally sometime soon, but I'm editing a paper for a friend and promised I'd get it to her ASAP, so I'll be back the first chance I get.

Hope everyone's Halloween/just plain Friday night festivities were enjoyable. :)

~~Sally~~

P.S. I'll also give my promised explanation as to why I voted for the ever-loveable Rikae when I return, in case anyone was wondering what happened to it.

ETA: By the way, random internet malfunction about half an hour ago, so if I don't return for a long while, that'd be why. Just so you know I didn't go submarine on you (again....ahem)

Brinniel

11-01-2008, 11:54 PM

Ugh, now I feel bad about Rikae. :( But at the time her intentions didn't at all look good.

Meanwhile, our Ranger continues to do an excellent job at protecting (that, or the lovers are being ever so predictable). We're doing an awful job at catching the baddies, but at least the Ranger is buying us some time (at least if those protected aren't actually lovers).

So why kill Mac? Is it because of what he said about Rikae? Or were the lovers trying to set up Nogrod?

Gwathagor

11-01-2008, 11:56 PM

Nice going, Ranger. Quality work.

Well, Nogrod is still alive. That is interesting, given how much was made of his impending death yesterDay. Evidently the lover-teams figured that if they didn't kill him in the Night, we'd find him suspicious enough to do the job ourselves. The possibility that Nogrod is a wolf (I use the word in the technical sense of "guilty party") seems lessened by the minimal degree to which he used his unique position yesterDay as a basis for persuasion or authority. He seemed, to me, to be genuinely resigned to his fate. Maybe what happened is that each lover-pair assumed the opposing pair would kill Nogrod, with the result that neither did?

ToDay I'd like to examine some of our less-noticed players - people like Shasta, McCaber, and Greenie. I'm way to tired to do it right now, but that's my goal anyway. We'll see.

EDIT: Crossed with Brinniel

Gwathagor

11-01-2008, 11:59 PM

So why kill Mac? Is it because of what he said about Rikae? Or were the lovers trying to set up Nogrod?

As we approached DL yesterDay, it seemed like Rikae knew something important and that she was giving Mac hints about it. I would guess that the lovers killed Mac out of fear that he might have figured out what it was she was talking about (though I still have no idea).

satansaloser2005

11-02-2008, 12:03 AM

Brinniel

11-02-2008, 12:09 AM

A vote count:

Mac: ++Eomer (Eomer 1)
Groin: ++Rikae (Eomer 1, Rikae 1)
Rikae: ++Gollum (Eomer 1, Rikae 1, Gollum 1)
Eomer: ++Greenie (Eomer 1, Rikae 1, Gollum 1, Greenie 1)
Aganzir: ++Gollum (Eomer 1, Rikae 1, Gollum 2, Greenie 1)
Shasta: ++McCaber (Eomer 1, Rikae 1, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1)
Gollum: ++Rikae (Eomer 1, Rikae 2, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1)
Nogrod: ++Rikae (Eomer 1, Rikae 3, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1)
Fea: ++Rikae (Eomer 1, Rikae 4, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1)
McCaber: ++Mac (Eomer 1, Rikae 4, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1, Mac 1)
Sally: ++Rikae (Eomer 1, Rikae 5, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1, Mac 1)
Brinn: ++Rikae (Eomer 1, Rikae 6, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1, Mac 1)
Gwath: ++Shasta (Eomer 1, Rikae 6, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1, Mac 1, Shasta 1)

Did not vote: Greenie

Gollum the Great

11-02-2008, 12:28 AM

Now we are what, -7 +12???:( We're doing pretty bad. And it appears we have 2 lover pairs. Today we'd better vote right.

Gollum the Great

11-02-2008, 12:58 AM

Today we'd better vote right.

Perhaps I should say I should vote right.

Brinniel

11-02-2008, 12:59 AM

The bad news: It looks like at least 1/3 of us have evil intentions.

The good news: Our pairs of lovers don't know each other plus they aren't on the same teams. The fact that they aren't all working together, but at least two teams working against each other can help us. Also, while we keep losing innocents, at least the odds of catching a lover becomes greater. Lastly, we lynch one lover, we kill their partner. That's one team down.

Right now I think we need to start taking a better look at these quieter players. Because so far we've been lynch loud players and they've all turned out innocent. That's not saying that a lover isn't a loud player, but I'm quite sure a lover is hiding somewhere among the quiet ones.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

11-02-2008, 04:09 AM

As we approached DL yesterDay, it seemed like Rikae knew something important and that she was giving Mac hints about it. I would guess that the lovers killed Mac out of fear that he might have figured out what it was she was talking about (though I still have no idea).

Good point. Considering Nogrod's willingness to get Mac lynched, Mac looked to be in trouble today. But what was this secret? It baffled me at the time and I still can't guess.

Here it is:

"Go look over the day's posts. There is something someone said earlier which explains why I've been saying some of the admittedly odd things I have. When you find it (as I'm sure you can) tell me what, in your opinion, should be done about it." -- Rikae

Is she speaking about a villain using, to her mind, unfair tactics? Why then would she not just come out and say it? I was thinking that she was simply trying to convince Mac of her innocence, but why then would something need to "be done about it"?

:confused:

Aganzir protected, eh? Whatever does this mean. I'll be thinking about this today.

As for the Rikae lynch, I'd normally say the bandwagon looked suspicious, because one after another voters jumped on her, but I have to admit she really did look suspicious.

Aganzir

11-02-2008, 04:09 AM

Thanks Ranger (or whatever you're called here). Love you, will you marry me?

I'm terribly displeased with Rikae's death.

I still want to lynch Gollum. More on that later.

I slept over so now I'm in a terrible hurry and have no time to post. I'll be back in the evening.

edit: xed with Eomer

Nogrod

11-02-2008, 05:46 AM

Guite a feat, ranger!!!

Sadly you seem to be the only one here up to her/his tasks... :confused:

Also I almost decided not to open the computer and check the situation as I was so sure about my death - I thought I could check it in the evening as well. Luckily I decided otherwise in the end.

And this really poses some questions.

Okay, it is possible the lovers who were after me the Night before just decided to have fun with me as they were so confident about their status or just to be sporty; or then I'm so misguided with my suspicions - which kind of looks to be true - that they thought I might help them with my stupid ideas... Or is there something like a limitation system to their kills?

That would sound unbelievable as the whole idea of just two pairs of lovers looks unbelievable. Like I said yesterDay I just can't bring myself to believe we only have two pairs here: 2:18 would be just too tough and unfair for them. I mean last time we had a similar-sized village and there were four pairs all having their own kills...

Which brings me to the possibility I entertained yesterDay of there being four pairs but only two of them getting to make a kill at Night. Di may randomise it who gets to make a kill or they take turns or something...

That would explain why I am still living as those who tried to go for me the Night before were not allowed a kill last Night?

About lovers going for Aganzir and Mac I'd say they look like someone has been after a presumed rival baddie. And that's naturally what the lovers need to do now. With the numbers of innocents plunging down the other teams are becoming their most immediate threat.

I'll be back later, hopefully with some more concrete thoughts.

Feanor of the Peredhil

11-02-2008, 06:39 AM

Nice work, Ranger. Seriously. I'm impressed, and growing to be more and more amused.

Less amusing is the fact that I would have probably concentrated on Mac today, and the 'wolves' took him away. Why are the 'wolves' killing off our lynch-fodder?

That's what's confusing me about this game- the Lovers are picking villagers who the village is likely to kill anyway. If they want to massacre us simply by numbers, why aren't they picking quiet unobtrusive villagers and letting us lynch our own loudmouths?

Unless this has to do with the growing threat of silent villagers. We have been saying that maybe it's best to lynch the quiet ones, so the Lovers are trying to take away easy targets from us to makes us more gullible?

I really have no idea.

PS- daylight saving's time makes me happy. My body says it's 9am. My clock says it's 8am. Woot.

Gwathagor

11-02-2008, 08:08 AM

Good point. Considering Nogrod's willingness to get Mac lynched, Mac looked to be in trouble today. But what was this secret? It baffled me at the time and I still can't guess.

Here it is:

"Go look over the day's posts. There is something someone said earlier which explains why I've been saying some of the admittedly odd things I have. When you find it (as I'm sure you can) tell me what, in your opinion, should be done about it." -- Rikae

Is she speaking about a villain using, to her mind, unfair tactics? Why then would she not just come out and say it? I was thinking that she was simply trying to convince Mac of her innocence, but why then would something need to "be done about it"?

She made the first mention of it very early on in Day 3.

We seem to have a smart ranger. I wonder if the ranger noticed what I noticed today. I certainly hope so.

This was only the tenth post of Day 3, so whatever she noticed has to occur in the nine prior posts. This narrows it down, but I still don't have any ideas. Who knows, maybe she was bluffing?

Eomer of the Rohirrim

11-02-2008, 08:27 AM

Ah, yes Gwath, I see it now. And look at Rikae's posts beginning #409. That thing about Aganzir being innocent. It's all very confusing, since Rikae seemed to be ordinary.

Is it possible Rikae was the Seer's lover? :confused: :p

We all suppose there's hidden stuff in this game. Why not something like this? Rikae's behaviour was too odd to be just ordinary. That might mean that there's a Guardian lover too. But no, because the supposed lover didn't die with Rikae.

Blah. Sorry. I'll leave it in the post, though. Maybe someone else can see a possibility from that silly idea. ;)

A Little Green

11-02-2008, 08:42 AM

Phew, I'm back. Like I already said yesterDay, I'm really sorry for my total lack of participation. Winning the foul way is not winning. This game is about speaking and trying to decipher what others say - not of saying "I have RL obligations and won't be around".Well... though I agree that it sucks if people (ie. me) need to abstain from voting or participate very little during one Day, I think you are being a bit too hard - you don't really believe people have sudden RL obligations just for fun, do you? Sometimes one just can't help it, and though it sucks, it's just the way it is. It's a different case entirely if you are like that for the entire game, but if it's just one Day it shouldn't be such a big issue.
Here's what I think of the next ones:

Innocent
Groin
Sally

possibly innocent
Greenie

These because of what they have stated about their situation.
Related to the previous issue, I don't quite agree with your logic that practically says that people with RL obligations are automatically innocent since if they were wolves they'd be foul and unfair wolves. Like I said earlier, sudden RL obligations are not a question of game tactics, and therefore in-game conclusions can hardly be drawn on that basis. Do I make sense at all?
I mean the question is this: who gives up in a way like that? Personal character and the general involvement in these games is a major factor but I won't go into them too much as I don't want to engage in that meta-game discussion we had yesterDay anymore. But in a situation like this, would it be an ordo who would decide just not to vote or one of a pair of lovers? That indeed is a question. As for why I didn't vote - like I said yesterDay, I had no time to really think about the game and I would have felt entirely silly to vote even though I had no time to think about who might be a baddie. It would have felt almost like a random vote to me, and I rather don't vote at all than vote randomly without thinking.

I'll be back soon with more stuff on other issues.

EDIT: x-ed with Eomer

Nogrod

11-02-2008, 08:49 AM

That's what's confusing me about this game- the Lovers are picking villagers who the village is likely to kill anyway. If they want to massacre us simply by numbers, why aren't they picking quiet unobtrusive villagers and letting us lynch our own loudmouths?They are first and foremost after the other lovers - like we are after lovers in principle - so it looks like we all sadly think the same way and suspect more those who post a lot rather than trying blindly those quiet ones... :(

Feanor of the Peredhil

11-02-2008, 09:17 AM

They are first and foremost after the other lovers - like we are after lovers in principle - so it looks like we all sadly think the same way and suspect more those who post a lot rather than trying blindly those quiet ones... :(

Yeah, but if I was a Lover, I'd want to keep the other Lover pair around for a while to deflect suspicion from me. I can totally see your logic, it's just that it's not how I'd do it, you know? I'd want the other Lovers around to nuke the village and then I'd kill them later. There are pros and cons to either way (keeping the other Lovers alive makes for the risk of you dying at night, but lowers the risk of you being caught during the day).

And as with the others, I'm definitely curious what Rikae was on about yesterday. I take Mac's response of "always go for the greatest advantage. In a game, at any rate." this way: it seems like Rikae strongly thought she found something important. I mean, she said so, and that she didn't know what to do about it. Which makes me think it was information that could either help or hurt the village. If she thought she found a Lover, she would have said something obvious, I'm quite sure. I mean, she was Ordo, so she'd have no reason not to, unless Diamond isn't revealing the full nature of our roles when we die.

So I figure she must have thought she ran across a good guy role and didn't know whether or not she should point it out.

Which makes Mac's response make a lot of sense- if I was responding to that scenario, I'd say the same thing: "Wait for the opportune moment." So the question is, what did Rikae think she found, should we probe too deeply, and why did the wolves think Mac was too dangerous to keep around? And, about Mac- should we probe too deeply if this has to do with seeing things that could be dangerous for the village?

A Little Green

11-02-2008, 09:24 AM

A list, since I've found out that lists are really a good way for me to get a picture of the village as a whole.

RED ZONE - suspicious
Gollum - Disagreeing with quite a lot of players, I think his behaviour indicates to a newbie wolf rather than a newbie innocent. Following other players' suspicions and/or suspecting others on very feeble grounds (especially his vote yesterDay was pretty horrible, really), being unhelpful and concentrating almost entirely on self-preservation strikes me more as a baddie.

YELLOW ZONE - somewhat suspicious, bears watching
Eomer - Smooth, calculating, posting little but seeming very active. I can't put my finger on it, but there's something that doesn't feel right with him. He's definitely someone who bears watching.

GREEN ZONE - innocentish
Aganzir - Has seemed very genuine throughout the game and makes reasonable points. No reason whatsoever to suspect her.
Nogrod - All in all seems quite innocent, though I disagree with him on quite many things. I was somewhat wary of him on Day 2, but his posting yesterDay seemed very much like an innocent Nogrod to me.
Brinniel - I guess she has been in my green zone throughout the game... But since she still hasn't given me any reason to suspect her, I suppose no can do. :D

NO IDEA -ZONE - sleeping under Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer...
Groin - Has really posted too little for me to make any conclusions about his role.
Sally - For some reason I have no read of her at all. Could be anything. I'll look at her if I have the time.
Shasta - See what I wrote about Sally - it's the same with Shasta.
Gwath - This guy, now, he could be about anything. No idea.
McCaber - The same problem as with Groin, though not as bad; there is too little to draw conclusions from.
Fea - I certainly want to look at her more closely if I have the time. Unlike the others on this zone, Fea seems both innocent and evil whereas the others seem neither. All in all, she baffles me.

To sum up, I'm worried about the size of my no idea -zone. Six people there, five in the others. :rolleyes: Is the problem with me or with the village? Probably the former.

Is there anyone around except for me?

EDIT: x-ed with Fea: seemingly there is. Hello! :)