The Middle Earth Popularity Cup

[Aganzir]

This is not to say that I would assume him to be a woman or anything as silly
A true feminist now aren't you? ;)

As for Legolas's androgynity, I think I had read Lotr twice before I realised he was actually a man (the problem of a language with no separate pronouns for sexes ;)).

++Sam

Because I sympathize with the working class rather than the ruling one. :cool:

Also, because I have a friend who is very much like Sam and right now I feel our relationship to be pretty much like that of Frodo & Sam's.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Rune! How could you! You have a chance to vote for one of the proletariat and you vote for one of the landed gentry? :eek:

I had a chance to vote for a conservative idea of the ideal servant and I chose not to take it.

When you read Tolkiens work you have to look past class devide, otherwise I would be going on and on about how almost all his heroes are aristocrats.

[Nogrod]

Because I sympathize with the working class rather than the ruling one.Exactly my stance, but also because I just symphatize with my first experiences with the LotR.

In a way I do dislike Sam being the kind of trusted servant - filling a role predetermined for him - as I read him nowadays, but still he outshines Legolas by a mile.

With Sam you have a rustic, down to earth -character who struggles to become what he will be, but with Legolas you have only a guy trying to fill the boots of someone you need to be there.

And the way PJ handled his character didn't do any good to his character. The skateboarding Legolas is a disgrace - as well as the original one competing with the number of kills with Gimli.

So Legolas clearly is a side-character, mainly made to fill a role in the company (even if there could have been chances to make him a real character) but Sam is flesh and blood in the end even if his role on the fellowship could be interpreted as a forced character as well.

And you can see how Tolkien loved Sam.

++Samvais

[mormegil]

++Samwise Gamgee the noble, brave and true.

Quite frankly he is the true hero of LOTR. Not Frodo, the glory hog, or Gandalf the uncloaked, or even Gorn the stinky. It's Samwise. He's the best.

[Lalwendë]

I had a chance to vote for a conservative idea of the ideal servant and I chose not to take it.

When you read Tolkiens work you have to look past class devide, otherwise I would be going on and on about how almost all his heroes are aristocrats.

I'm seriously thinking of starting a thread analysing the text from a Marxist point of view and then we can argue about Sam's class status to our hearts content. ;)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I'm seriously thinking of starting a thread analysing the text from a Marxist point of view and then we can argue about Sam's class status to our hearts content. ;)

It has been so long since I have actually engaged in that sort of activity. . .I am probably a bit rusty.

*graps Gert Petersen's Introduction to Fundamental Marxist Consepts*

[Andsigil]

The skateboarding Legolas is a disgrace - as well as the original one competing with the number of kills with Gimli.

It was only orcs. It's not like he and Gimli were killing Ents or Hobbits.

[skip spence]

Hey now, Orcs are also people you know. In any case, it's tasteless to have a killing-competition of sentient creatures, be they beast or man.

In the Cup, Sam has defeated Legolas with the emphatic score of 9 votes to 3.

Match 15 of Round 1:

Next up is Gimli, the winner of the mentoned killing-competition, versus another accomplished killer, the strapping heart-throb Túrin Turambar. Was he really cursed or did he just make very poor decisions?

Gimli vs. Túrin

[Morthoron]

Gimli vs. Túrin?

Hmmm...I don't rightly care for either character. So I just think I'll sit this one out for now.

[Andsigil]

Hey now, Orcs are also people you know. In any case, it's tasteless to have a killing-competition of sentient creatures, be they beast or man.[/B]

Sorry. Orcs showed no redeeming qualities in 10,000 years of Middle Earth history, so I see them as vermin, sentient or not. There's probably a good reason that a being as noble, wise, and long-lived as Legolas hunted them for sport.

As for the next competition, I'll take ++Gimli: loyal, good-hearted, and steadfast, without all of the anguish and curses of Turin.

[Lalwendë]

Turin makes for a good story but he's not as nice as the Dwarf, so....

++Gimli

[mormegil]

Skip, how can you do this in an opening round? I love Gimli but look at my namesake? Bah! Lal, what say we unite and overthrow this madman that pits some of the best against each other so early on in the competition?

++Turin

[Nogrod]

I'm not one of those LotR purists who went raving mad with every alteration PJ and his team made to the book - some of them were okay, some were understandable and many were just bad. But one thing that really got my blood boiling was the way they reduced Gimli, son of Glóin, into a piece of mere comic relief - which even wasn't so funny. That I was really mad about.

But that said I think there is no competition here.

++ Túrin

It's an age old Finnish folk-story about Kullervo son of Kalervo which took my imagination already when I was very small and heard the story (the Finnish version that is) the first time. It's just one of the most tragic mythical stories there is, comparable in many ways to the story of Oedipus.

There's so much in there!

And one doesn't have to love the mythical hero as a person to see their literary, symbolic or philosophical greatness and deepness. :)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

By Andsigil
Orcs showed no redeeming qualities in 10,000 years of Middle Earth history,

Except for my two favorite orcs, Rosenkrantz and Gildenstern
(that is, Gorbag and Shagrat ) :) Granted, those two did have issues.

The most interesting bit with Turin was the question of free will.
It seems to me somewhat ambiguous in the story versions (Probably leaning
toward a form of Morgoth dominance of the issue vis-a-vis Hurin
and his kids).

Of course Gimli did win the competition with Leggy. Picture Stephen Colbert
leading The Nation in chants of "We did it!" with balloons falling down.

So + + Gimli son of Gloin . Oh, and Gimli's father, while
initially dismissive of Bilbo at The Unexpected Party, was quite
polite to Bilbo's nephew.

[Groin Redbeard]

Gimli isn't as tragic a character as Turin is, and he doesn't get you mad like Turin sometimes does. I love the way that Tolkien made Gimli so poetic in his books, we see this when he describes the Glittering Caves to Legolas and when he asks for three of Galadriel's hairs. It certainly refutes the arguments that dwarves are just a bunch of selfish brutes that hide in their mines all day. You have got to admire a dwarf that can rise above his own pride and admire the beauty of Galadriel and to become a friend with the son of Thrandiul.

++Gimli

[Tuor in Gondolin]

You have got to admire a dwarf that can rise above his own pride and admire the beauty of Galadriel and to become a friend with the son of Thrandiul.


Good point, especially when you consider how Thorin and Company, including
his father, were treated by Thranduil + the elf's interest in the hoard of
Smaug.

[Groin Redbeard]

Good point, especially when you consider how Thorin and Company, including
his father, were treated by Thranduil + the elf's interest in the hoard of
Smaug.

Oooh, I was clenching my Hobbit book so tight that I left my hand imprint on it. I was so mad at how Thranduil haughtily handled Thorin and his company, and then having the nerve to show up afterwards with an army at Erebor after Smaug was killed and say, "hey, where are my jewels?" But that's another topic for another time.:) The point is: Gimli is no ordinary dwarf.:D

[skip spence]

Bet the history would look different from the Orcs' perspective, Andsigil. But as much as I love discussing Orcs potential to become outstanding citizens this is hardly the place for that. :)

I'm going with ++Turin, no doubt about that. Although not very likeable, he certainly is interesting and much better looking too. Don't have time to go into detail about it but I hope to do so in later rounds. Because frankly, to quote Homer J. Simpson, Gimli is booooring

[the phantom]

Turin... poor guy. Dad captured, Mom sends him away, bad luck with Saeros, accidentally kills best friend, and marries his sister.

Yeesh. He deserves some compensation for having to go through that. I wish Tolkien would've told us what Turin would have been without Morgoth's curse and Glaurung's webs.

++ Turin

Because he scared orcs out of their wits, and he killed the father of dragons, his story is perhaps my favorite of all Tolkien's tales, and I feel bad about the way things turned out for him.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Gimli

Because Turin has always reminded me, very strongly, of Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone, only more depressing, and I'm trying to get into a holiday mood, what with the snow falling outside and all. :)

Also, because I liked the Song of Durin Gimli sang in Moria. It was the second of Tolkien's poems I set to music, and I've always liked it -- and the fact that in such a dark and dangerous place, Gimli, of all people, decided to sing. I was also touched by Gimli's (book, that is) understated but nonetheless open grief at the loss of Balin, as well as his willingness to set aside a long-engrained grudge against Elves for a rather chivalrous love of Galadriel. And I liked that he, like some of the hobbits, was not too proud to show fear in dreadful circumstances (like the Paths of the Dead). Though I wouldn't call him one of my favorite characters, I would consider him more "accessible" than some others.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Sorry. Orcs showed no redeeming qualities in 10,000 years of Middle Earth history, so I see them as vermin, sentient or not. There's probably a good reason that a being as noble, wise, and long-lived as Legolas hunted them for sport.
Hey, and what about the noble, charismatic and surely also long-lived (had it not been for the unfortunate Éomer incident, but: respect!) Uglúk? For one, I don't have any problem with the Legolas-Gimli competition (only with the disgraceful joke they made out of it in the movie!!!), Orcs are often seen just as "dark horde" and I accept them as they are portrayed. But the other point of view is also possible, and some of the Orc individuals are indeed remarkable! In fact, all of them.

Anyway, as to the voting at hand, I am going to vote for

++Túrin

for he is indeed a very complex character and while I did not start to like him rightaway, lately, when reading his tale (before it was possible to read in CoH, which is even better, yay!), I started to like his character. Wow, imagine a guy like that in Saruman's ranks... (okay, I see I am starting to follow a strange pattern of thoughts...)
Nothing against Gimli (he is a Dwarf, but an Elf-friend, so no hard feelings ;) :p ), but he just is not as interesting, to say it simply without tons of unnecessary words :)

[Gollum the Great]

I love Gimli, but how anyone vote him over Turin? The tallest of all men, the first to slay a dragon, the Dragon-Helm, the son of Hurin, greatest of the warriors of men? Unquestionably,

++Turin Turambar

[Strongbow]

A Túrin Turambar turún' ambartanen, verily.

++Gimli

[Thinlómien]

++Gimli

I love Túrin's tale, I think it's my favourite of the great tales. But I don't like him as a character particularily much. Yes, I pity him and even understand (almost) all of his stupid deeds but he's still a jerk if you ask me. (A fascinating jerk, though. ;))

Gimli, on the other hand, is lovely. And herr Spence, no, he's not boring at all. I love him because he's really quite a many-sided character full of contradictions: he's a tough warrior but really rather sensitive (awww :)), a hopeless pessimist but still courageous and in a way, full of faith and hope.

What I like him the best, though, is that he's not afraid to show his emotions. He cries when he grieves, he rages when he's angry, smiles and laughs and sings when he's happy and admits it when he's afraid. I think that's bravery of the bravest sort.

Also, his friendship with Elves has been mentioned but there's one thing that remains unsaid that I like about him: his sense of humour. He always makes me smile with his jokes which are rather pessimistic or grumbling, whch is kind of cute. (Yes, I think I just said that Gimli is cute. :eek: Hahahahaa.)

[Andsigil]

Bet the history would look different from the Orcs' perspective, Andsigil. But as much as I love discussing Orcs potential to become outstanding citizens this is hardly the place for that. :)

Granted about the venue. But, do we really care about their viewpoint? I don't think Tolkien had strange concepts like moral relativism in mind when he created this universe. Oh, well. I, too, would be happy to discuss this in another thread.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

++ Sigurd Faf. . . .sorry wrong name!

++Turin

No matte who would make the Silmarilion movie, they would never make Turin comical relief.

[Groin Redbeard]

No matte who would make the Silmarilion movie, they would never make Turin comical relief.
Are we to judge Gimli on Peter Jackson's portrayal of him in the movies?:eek: Shame on you, Rune! You disgrace the name of Gimli by comparing him to John R. Davis.

[Andsigil]

No matte who would make the Silmarilion movie, they would never make Turin comical relief.

While Gimli may be rabelaisian, Turin is downright melodramatic.

I'll take rabelaisian any day.

[skip spence]

Granted about the venue. But, do we really care about their viewpoint? I don't think Tolkien had strange concepts like moral relativism in mind when he created this universe. Oh, well. I, too, would be happy to discuss this in another thread.

I've a feeling this topic is a can of worms (never quite understood that expression though, what's so bad about a can of worms? You open it and there are worms inside, so what? I can think of much worse can-contents) but here's a fairly recent thread where we discussed these issues:
Are Orcs That Bad? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15040)

What I like him the best, though, is that he's not afraid to show his emotions. He cries when he grieves, he rages when he's angry, smiles and laughs and sings when he's happy and admits it when he's afraid. I think that's bravery of the bravest sort.
Okay, I'll give you that, he's not afraid to show his emotions. It's just that I don't really buy it. What's his motivation, his inner desires and struggles? Who is Gimli? To me he is just a sideshow, just like Legolas; a character not crafted out well enough to care for. And Cute? :eek: :p

Edit: I suppose PJ felt the fellowship could use some comic relief, and I actually agree: you can't have nine stern and solemn walkers in a Hollywood blockbuster. From there, the step to use Gimli (and Pip and Merry of curse) seems rather natural, as he already is used for this purpose on occasion by Tolkien, if to a much lesser degree. Furthermore, in The Hobbit, the Dwarwes are used almost exclusively as comic relief, or for plain comedy I should say. Okay, maybe that's an exageration but you get my point. Sure, the Gimli-jokes weren't always handled in the best way, but some gave me a chuckle too. All and all, I didn't mind movie Gimli at all.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Are we to judge Gimli on Peter Jackson's portrayal of him in the movies?:eek: Shame on you, Rune! You disgrace the name of Gimli by comparing him to John R. Davis.

That was not what I did. . . I just said that it would be impossible to do it to Turin. I voted Turin because he goes through the same troubles as many beloved folk-lore hero. Nogrod mentioned one, in Norse/Germanic tales you have Sigurd/Siegfried.

It is a cool charachter

[Nerwen]

++ Túrin.

[Aganzir]

++Gimli

Neither of them is my special favourite but I like them both. However, Gimli is a dwarf. And he needs some love after being treated like that by PJ.

As a matter of fact, I might well have voted Túrin, but reading through your posts and especially skip's statement that he had found some Gimli parts in the movies funny swayed my vote towards Gimli.

[skip spence]

++Gimli
As a matter of fact, I might well have voted Túrin, but reading through your posts and especially skip's statement that he had found some Gimli parts in the movies funny swayed my vote towards Gimli.
Man, I knew I'd get into trouble for that. But come on, are you seriously suggesting that Aragorn tossing Gimli wasn't funny?;)

Fortunately, Turin did just enough to toss aside Gimli, despite stiff resistance from the little funny-man. It finished 8-8 but Nerwen's vote proved decisive in the end.

[skip spence]

Match 16 of round 1:

So for out final match of round one Beorn, the bulky, shape-shifting vegetarian will test his skills against Boromir's kid brother Faramir.

Faramir vs. Beorn

[Andsigil]

Match 16 of round 1:

So for out final match of round one Beorn, the bulky, shape-shifting vegetarian will test his skills against Boromir's kid brother Faramir.

Faramir vs. Beorn

My signature line notwithstanding, ++Beorn, because being a werebear-berserker who slaughters orcs by the hundreds is just... cool.

http://fantasymenagerie.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/werebear2.jpg

[Morthoron]

++Beorn

Unlike Faramir, who is a sensitive metrosexual, Beorn likes to hang out with talking sheep and horses, and turns into a bear when he's angry. The dude is a literal party animal!

[Gollum the Great]

Wow. The saint-like character from LOTR and the ultimate orc-slayer duke it out. Heck, I like people who are honorable and selfless and all that sort of thing, but when it comes to being trapped in a small room with a squad of Uruk-hai closing around me...

++Beorn

[skip spence]

++Beorn

Don't really care for either character but it's hard not to vote for the big guy after that awesome picture.

[Groin Redbeard]

Beorn may be cool but he is not wise, learned, interesting and pleasant to read about. Faramir is all that Beorn isn't and more. Besides, if I remember correctly, Faramir was the character who Tolkien based himself on in the book.

++Faramir

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Faramir

Of course Book Faramir, not PJ's silliness.

[Strongbow]

++Beorn

I know this in my heart. Faramir rocks, but one of two shapeshifting Men in Tolkien's works? Nolo contendere.

[mormegil]

Honestly I met Beorn once and I couldn't stand all the sniffing he did, it creeped me out a bit if you know what I mean...if you don't think of dogs and when they meet:eek::rolleyes:

++Faramir

The book Faramir is one of my favorite from the trilogy, not the favorite mind you, but up in the top 10. Anyway, despite having a wretched father and a glory hog of a brother, he turned out great.

[Groin Redbeard]

++Beorn
Unlike Faramir, who is a sensitive metrosexual...

Could we please stop calling people gay in this thread, Morthoron! Your crack at Michael Angelo was bad enough, but calling Faramir so is pushing the limits. All that I've heard implied about Beorn is that he's cool, don't call characters things that they are not if you can't find anything good to back up your character choice.

Faramir rode into the jaws of certain death with his company to appease his father's will. Now that is devotion and courage. Faramir read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing, and a lover of lore and of music, and therefore by many in those days his courage was judged less than his brother's. But it was not so, except that he did not seek glory in danger without a purpose.

[Morthoron]

Could we please stop calling people gay in this thread, Morthoron! Your crack at Michael Angelo was bad enough, but calling Faramir so is pushing the limits. All that I've heard implied about Beorn is that he's cool, don't call characters things that they are not if you can't find anything good to back up your character choice. .

Michelangelo was the world's greatest sculptor. He also happened to be gay, as was Leonardo Da Vinci. It is not a big deal, and you've taken what I said about him out of context (actually, it was a slap at certain Christians who would place in hell anyone they disagree with). I am sorry you are unaware of history. Perhaps reading might help.

As far as the term 'sensitive metrosexual', it does not indicate someone who is gay; on the contrary, it is an exclusively heterosexual term. Study your neologisms before you make accusations and go overboard spouting your indignation. It is becoming tedious.

[Durelin]

Faramir is an adorable emo boy whom I love muchly, but Beorn is just awesome. Bears are awesome.

++Beorn

People are forgetting that this is Middle-earth Mirth. :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

Book Faramir was awesome. His encounter with Frodo is one of my favorite bits in LotR. Great conversations...

++ Faramir

[mormegil]

I'm noticing some going a big overboard on their feelings on this thread. Please remember that this thread is on the mirth sub-forum and is by no means canon. It is light hearted and fun. Absurd reasons can be given to not vote or to vote for any candidate. Please lighten up or I will lighten you up a bit :)

[Nerwen]

++Faramir.

Because... um... I don't like bears. (Not that I know any personally.)

[Thinlómien]

Once again two characters I like against each other... Hmph...

++Beorn

Because, to use my new favourite word, he's cooler. ;)

I like Faramir very much, but he's such a perfect hero that it annoys me a bit. I mean, for example, if I think of it reasonably, I should prefer him to Boromir by far, but I just don't. Because Boromir is less of a saint, and thus more interesting.

Beorn is an interesting guy. I love his unpredictability and his sense of humour. I also like it that even though he's gruff and you could almost call him a brute, he has a warm heart and has hidden wisdom... Hmmm, actually, kind of the stereotypic Man of North... ;) And of course he has a fascinating relationship with nature and that shapeshifting is just incredible...

[Aganzir]

Man, I knew I'd get into trouble for that. But come on, are you seriously suggesting that Aragorn tossing Gimli wasn't funny?
If it had been the other way around... Then yes. ;)

don't call characters things that they are not if you can't find anything good to back up your character choice.
I must point out that some people just have a good gaydar. :cool:

++Beorn

I like bears. I like Beorn's relationship with nature, and his house, and his sense of humour, and also his openness (and the lack of it - just the way he decides if he trusts someone or not) and loyalty.

[Lalwendë]

This is momentarily quite hard as I love both characters, however I am going to come down on the side of Faramir as he's so much like Robin Hood (who is perhaps my favourite mythical hero of all time) that it's uncanny.

++Faramir

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Faramir.

Because... um... I don't like bears. (Not that I know any personally.)
__________________

Nerwen must be a relative of Stephen Colbert ;)


"The number one threat to America [and Middle-earth?], BEARS!"

[Durelin]

Because, to use my new favourite word, he's cooler.

My thoughts exactly. :D If this were a contest between who you would rather be in a relationship with, I think I'd choose Faramir over any character, but Beorn kicks more butt...and there's always something about the dangerous type...

I think that should be the next Mirth contest. :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, this is a similarly hard choice as what has been here before. I think in this, it would depend solely on my mood whom to vote for. Faramir is a fantastic character, I like him a lot. Beorn is just great character, I like him a lot. On Faramir, I like the most probably his behavior. On Beorn, I like the most probably his shapeshifting. The second thing I like on Beorn is that he is funny. The second thing I like about Faramir is that he is not such a (forgive me the strong word) mindless guardian and just the "tough soldier" as most of the Stout Men Of Gondor are. The third thing I like about Faramir is how he cares of Éowyn when it's really bad with her. Her part or her opinon aside, he does not force anything upon her, which I like. The third thing I like on Beorn is what he represents: the "wild man" from Wilderness... including all the things that he can speak with animals and how he treats them, which is nice too. And hey, he is a friend of Radagast's! But that is not as much of an evidence for me. Hmph.

Well, you know what - since I think Beorn has more votes now, I will vote for

++Faramir

[skip spence]

Well, that's it, Beorn has defeated Faramir by 8 votes to 6 (or 7 if I count Legate's vote which technically was late) and by that the first round is concluded.

If it's okay with you I'll hold the start of the second round matches until tomorrow. I'll probably post comments on the first round and some odds before that.

[skip spence]

After a suspenseful fortnight of ups, downs, thrills and frill, the first round of the Middle Earth Popularity Cup is concluded and 32 have become 16. We have seen plenty of heavily favoured heroes bask in glory after a job well done but also a few upsets leading to return trip much earlier than expected for some participants. Of the original nine walkers only five now remain and even Gollum, one of the pre-tournament favourites to win, has been eliminated, along with Merry, Pippin, Legolas and Gimli. So far, this Cup has not been for the vertically challenged: ten Hobbits and Dwarves entered the competition but now only three remain: Frodo, Sam and the unlikely figure of Mim. The yellow boots and questionable poetry of Tom Bombadil will no longer grace the audience, nor will the fiery temper of Fëanor or the wisdom of Faramir. But here, without further ado, are the second round match-ups:

Second Round:

Frodo Baggins (7) vs. Beleg Strongbow (8)
Mim the Petty Dwarf (5) vs. Sauron (10)
Maedhros (10) vs. Glaurung (4)
Boromir(8) vs. Saruman (7)

Gandalf (14) vs. Elrond (1)
Lúthien (4) vs. Galadriel (10)
Aragorn (7) vs. Samwise Gamgee (9)
Túrin Turambar (10) vs. Beorn (7)

Odds for every match-up have also come in from The Betberry Bookmakers as well as odds on the winner of the whole tournament. At present Gandalf is the favourite at 11/2, closely followed by dynamic duo Frodo and Sam at 13/2. The odds on Gandalf’s old chum and fellow wizard Saruman have dropped dramatically after his emphatic first round win against Gollum and is down to 7/1. Aragorn and Boromir round out the top-favoured group and are both at 11/1.

The rest: Turin 20/1; Maedhros 25/1; Galadriel 80/1; Glaurung, Sauron, Elrond 100/1; Beorn 200/1; Lúthien, Beleg 250/1; Mim 1000/1

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Beleg Cuthalion is far more pro-active then the nice
hobbit, granted the Baggins had better luck in choice
of human companions, but since the elf is one of
the more attractive of FA elves and the chief theme
here is popularity:

+ + The strongbow

And look at those odds!

[skip spence]

Frodo Baggins vs. Beleg Strongbow

Frodo had a fairly comfortable passage to the second round, showing The Gaffer who the Master is on Bag's End. Beleg had to work harder, just managing to overcome the stout Farmer Maggot by five votes to four. Frodo is heavily favoured ahead of this contest. Will he march on or can Beleg cause an upset?

As usual the deadline is 12.00 Am tomorrow board-time.

[A Little Green]

++ Beleg

No question. Frodo is nice and all, but for some reason he's never moved me to one way or another. He's somehow a trifle too basic a main character. I don't know what's this thing of mine about main characters, but they never interest me as much as the minor ones do.
Beleg, on the other hand, is one of my all-time favourites and his death I think is one of the most tragic scenes in Tolkien's work. Granted, he's maybe a bit too perfect, but I just love him, his wisdom, his courage, his faithfulness, and the way he dies is so wrong it hurts.

[Aganzir]

++Frodo

When I compare him to Beleg, it's Beleg who doesn't move me that much. I think that is because it can be seen so clearly in the story how Frodo grows up and learns to consider also other people's needs. It's easy to say that other hobbits might have done at least as well as he did, but I wouldn't bet on it. Frodo was both strong-willed enough and capable of adapting quickly to difficult situations.

He started out with Sam as his servant, but can you talk about a servant and a master anymore in the end? Try to remain a good servant as Sam might, Frodo clearly considered him his equal on the later part of the journey.

Think how Frodo treated Lobelia in the beginning. He spoke nastily of her and was mean to the Sackville-Bagginses - and he also left the dishes for Lobelia when setting out to Crickhollow! But in the end he felt pity for her (and Lotho). No wonder Lobelia left him what little property she had. That's something I call adorable.

I'm quoting also my earlier post where I voted Frodo in order to convince those who might still be wavering to vote for him. :cool:
I like to compare him to Siddharta Gautama; having lived a happy youth, he went through a lot of suffering to achieve wisdom.
In the beginning he was a simple, ordinary hobbit - just like the Gaffer - but on returning home he had learnt forgiveness, mercy, and peace. When I was little, I found him a bit boring, not a proper hero, when he refused to bear weapons in the end, but now that's one of the most important things why I like him.

Also, a suggestion, skippy. Isn't it a bit unfair that in case of a tie the winner is always the one who got his/her votes first? What about giving some overtime in those cases so that although a new match has already begun, it's still allowed to vote for a contestant of the previous match until one of them gets a vote?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

He's somehow a trifle too basic a main character. I don't know what's this thing of mine about main characters, but they never interest me as much as the minor ones do.
That's exactly what I think as well and also exactly what I said in the last voting :) But still, to me, Frodo is a more interesting character, and he is not that horribly uninteresting as many of the main characters happen to be. But also:

Think how Frodo treated Lobelia in the beginning. He spoke nastily of her and was mean to the Sackville-Bagginses - and he also left the dishes for Lobelia when setting out to Crickhollow! But in the end he felt pity for her (and Lotho). No wonder Lobelia left him what little property she had. That's something I call adorable.

This is wonderful, I say. Yes - the stance of Frodo towards the Sackville-Bagginses when he returns is just something very moving and shows some other, deeper dimension of Frodo and shows indeed, maybe more than anything else (at least more than anything else I can think of right now), the change he went through on his journey.

Yes, no long pondering.

++Frodo

[skip spence]

++Frodo
Also, a suggestion, skippy. Isn't it a bit unfair that in case of a tie the winner is always the one who got his/her votes first? What about giving some overtime in those cases so that although a new match has already begun, it's still allowed to vote for a contestant of the previous match until one of them gets a vote?

I actually had that in mind myself but promptly forgot about it. But yeah, let's do it: in case of a tie when the deadline passes anyone may vote again and the first to do so decides the contest in sudden death fashion. I'll add that in the op too.

[Groin Redbeard]

No question about it. We get to see Frodo grow on his journey and evolve into a more delightful character, and we share in his struggles that he deals with. One significant change I saw in Frodo at the end of the book was his almost pacifist nature. Frodo was ready to kill Gollum in Moria yet even at the cracks of Doom he does not feel any ill feelings towards Gollum. Same thing when he lets Saruman/Sharku go after he has defiled the Shire. Frodo has transformed into the very impitamy of mercy and is absolutely the strongest, most showing, and best side of Frodo's character.

++Frodo

[mormegil]

Bah! Frodo didn't actually do anything now did he? All he did was whine the whole way to Mordor, ride on Sam's back and basically take all the food and drink from the truly noble Samwise. How hard is it to make yourself look good when you and your uncle essentially write the narrative?

Beleg, on the other hand, is noble and brave. Plus anybody who gets a surname like Strongbow has got to be pretty cool.

++Beleg

Frodo's foot hair is too long as well.

[Thinlómien]

++Frodo

I'll come back to reason later if I have time and this round is still going on. :)

[Andsigil]

While I enjoyed reading Groin's thoughts on how Frodo became the epitome of mercy, I have mixed feelings on that sort of blanket pacifism. It's easy to show Frodo in a noble light for acting this way because, after all, he was the central character and Tolkien crafted the story the way he wanted. However, in real life, the luxury of embracing pacifism generally only works when it's done from behind the safety of a bulwark, which says something poignantly ironic about the nature of pacifism, itself.

I've also found through the years, both in real life and in studying history (at university and subsequently) that the old adage of "Mercy to the wolf is cruelty to the sheep" has a lot of truth in it. I suppose it depends on what you consider to be a wolf. My threshold for wolflike behavior is pretty low.

In any event, I choose ++Beleg

[Groin Redbeard]

While I enjoyed reading Groin's thoughts on how Frodo became the epitome of mercy, I have mixed feelings on that sort of blanket pacifism. It's easy to show Frodo in a noble light for acting this way because, after all, he was the central character and Tolkien crafted the story the way he wanted. However, in real life, the luxury of embracing pacifism generally only works when it's done from behind the safety of a bulwark, which says something poignantly ironic about the nature of pacifism, itself.No, no, no, I should have specified clearer.:) Frodo wasn't a pacifist, I just said how he nearly was one with how merciful and gracious he was. He certainly didn't appose the Hobbits to fight for their home, as a pacifist would have done. Frodo wasn't afraid to fight for what was good and just but it wasn't the first thing that entered his mind. What I was referring to, when I mentioned Frodo almost being pacifist, is his handling of Saruman at the end. Saruman even jumped at Frodo with a knife and stabbed him but Frodo still let him go, he might have been overly merciful but I think that he showed wisdom at the same time.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

While I enjoyed reading Groin's thoughts on how Frodo became the epitome of mercy, I have mixed feelings on that sort of blanket pacifism. It's easy to show Frodo in a noble light for acting this way because, after all, he was the central character and Tolkien crafted the story the way he wanted. However, in real life, the luxury of embracing pacifism generally only works when it's done from behind the safety of a bulwark, which says something poignantly ironic about the nature of pacifism, itself.

I've also found through the years, both in real life and in studying history (at university and subsequently) that the old adage of "Mercy to the wolf is cruelty to the sheep" has a lot of truth in it. I suppose it depends on what you consider to be a wolf. My threshold for wolflike behavior is pretty low.

Standing watching when let's say somebody attacks your friend, such kind of pacifism will be surely immoral. But have you for example read anything about Mahatma Gandhi? He was just a man like everybody else, but his concepts of non-aggression I find actually pretty nice, and he proved them himself with quite good outcome several times...

[Nogrod]

I'm afraid Frodo will just walk away with victory from this so I have to try and help the other side. I've nothing against Frodo, quite on the contrary, but we need some believable opposition in the form of votes to make this more interesting. :)

++ Beleg

Now I just have to come up with a reason...

Well, Beleg is just cool, a Hero (with a capital H) and I really admired him when I read the Silm the first time.

Then again the parts with Frodo and Sam wandering together in the LotR were the most boring pages in the book when I was younger - I was indeed always hoping the prof would have done away with them and the story would have gotten back to where the war was brewed and fought, where the pawns moved on the board, where the politics were gambled and wider views showed. ;)

So let's say this is Nogrod, aged 14, voting here... :D

[Morthoron]

++Frodo.

He is a more complete character than Beleg, who seems rather flat and one-dimensional.

[Gollum the Great]

++Beleg Cuthalion

Because he's awesome. And he's a friend (something we need more of...).

[Strongbow]

++Beleg

Come now. With my username, you think I could go any other way?

[Andsigil]

Standing watching when let's say somebody attacks your friend, such kind of pacifism will be surely immoral. But have you for example read anything about Mahatma Gandhi? He was just a man like everybody else, but his concepts of non-aggression I find actually pretty nice, and he proved them himself with quite good outcome several times...

Oh, yes, I have read plenty about him. But note that I did say "generally". Historically, Gandhi was rather the exception.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Frodo

To me, there is little bravery shown in Tolkien's works as great as Frodo's acceptance of the burden of the Ring, especially after listening to all that was said about it at the Council of Elrond.

[mormegil]

To me, there is little bravery shown in Tolkien's works as great as Frodo's acceptance of the burden of the Ring, especially after listening to all that was said about it at the Council of Elrond.

He was a bigger glory hog than Boromir but since he was so diminuative in stature nobody suspected it. He's really a tyrant.

[Ilya]

++Frodo

Yes, Beleg is great. Yes, Frodo is nothing without Sam. But he's a far better developed character, and his failure at the test is what makes his sacrifice all the more meaningful.

[the phantom]

We see so much less of Beleg when compared to Frodo- pages and pages less. And yet in that little bit of time we have with him Beleg proves that he is an amazing person. If we had the exposure to him we have to Frodo, I think Beleg would win this contest quite easily.

Expert teacher, tracker, and warrior, and the truest of friends. I salute...

++Beleg

[skip spence]

Frodo was the big favourite ahead of this match but the voting was much closer than expected. In the end the final vote by the Phantom was decisive and since his choice was Beleg the Ringbearer is eliminated. Smell you later, Frodo!

He's been called the "Shylock" of Middle Earth and an "evil Dwarf". Next up is the match between the unsung hero and outsider Mim the Petty Dwarf, who comes face to face with none other than Sauron the Dark Lord, the greatest enemy of the free people in the second and third Age of Arda.

Mim the Petty Dwarf vs. Sauron

[Andsigil]

Mim the Petty Dwarf vs. Sauron

++Sauron

Why vote for the lesser of two evils?

[mormegil]

++MIM

I am quite fond of his name

[Aganzir]

++Mîm

He's a very misunderstood and interesting character whose purpose in the story was much more intriguing than Sauron's. Besides he's a dwarf.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Somehow with Mim and Sauron the Gilligan's Island
episode of Jack and the Beanstalk with "Gilligan"
running between the giant's legs comes to mind.

So, since petty dwarves "get no respect"

+ + Mim

Also:
Why vote for the lesser of two evils?
I thought you should always vote for the lesser of two weevils?

[A Little Green]

++ Sauron

Talking about the Sil Sauron now, of course - LotR Sauron is plain boring. Sauron is pretty cool in the Sil, whereas Mîm is one of those characters I have never especially liked. Of evil and slightly nasty, I choose the evil. :p

[the phantom]

Let us compare these two- Mim and Sauron.
----
Mim- He has a chapter in a book named after him (Of Mim the Dwarf).

Sauron- One of the best selling books of all time is named after him (The Lord of the Rings).
----
Mim- Brought about the destruction of a group of men living on a hill.

Sauron- Brought about the destruction of Numenor and Arnor.
----
Mim- Responsible for the deaths of the men upon Amon Rhud.

Sauron- Responsible for the deaths of thousands, perhaps millions.
----
Mim- Directly responsible for slaying... erm... probably a rabbit at least.

Sauron- Directly slew the High King of the Elves and the King of Gondor.
----
Mim- Caused Turin to be captured.

Sauron- Caused Valinor to be removed from the world.
----
Mim- Attempted to take over the empty halls of Nargothrond. Did not succeed. Stopped by an old man.

Sauron- Attempted to take over the world. Nearly succeeded. Stopped by Eru.
----
Mim- Left behind no legacy.

Sauron- Without Sauron, no Tol-In-Gaurhoth. He will live on through our Werewolf games forever.
----
Yeah... Take a wild guess at which way my vote is gonna go.

++Sauron

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

While I fancy Sauron (also, especially the Sil one... or more concretely, the "Gorlim" one; or then the "Pharazon" one), still, I became really fond of Mîm. And now thinking of it, aww, his tale is just so painfully sad - losing both of his sons in such a horrible way! (Not to mention him being the last of his kind.) No, actually, my favourite is clear! Pity wins.

++Mîm

I really wish he would win.

Oh, and, besides - he had a cool prophecy. Oh...

[Thinlómien]

++Mîm

I really wish he would win.I don't. So

++Sauron

Mwahaha.

Erm... okay. :D:p

But yes, I like him better, (although I don't really like either him or Mîm). It's all that scary Silm stuff that has already been mentioned.

And as for pity, I'm actually going further than Gandalf himself. I think I even pity Sauron, on some level. I pity the great talent and the soul of an artist that were - in a way - lost when Morgoth corrupted him.

Now I know! It's more or less the same as my pity for Darth Vader... :cool:

[Nogrod]

So Beleg overtook Frodo Baggins himself!

Yay! This is getting interesting indeed! :cool:

So the next major character to be dropped is Sauron, right? Let's see a carnival here and let the fresh winds blow!

Oh, just a minute, the pairs in this round look like Skip has made sure some of the top idols will survive anyway... There goes the grand scheme. :(


But in that case I'm going to vote for

++ Sauron

As said already here - and discussed in a separate thread lately - the Silm-Sauron is just magnificiently interesting character (unlike the LotR-Sauron who is just the abstract evil with no qualities eg. a different literal and philosophical idea).

And although I have almost always felt a deep sympathy with Mím (probably not the first time I read the Silmarillion as I was too young to appreciate him back then as a kid) there has always been something in his character I have disliked. I mean the sorrow of a father who lost his sons and the knowledge of being the last of one's kind are great and moving themes. But there still is something in the "petty" pride he has that has always been something like a turn-off for me. I don't know if it's cultural inheritance or something but there it is and I can't help it. I know I should think more highly of him but I just can't - at least if I have to make a choice between him and Sauron of the Silmarillion...

[mormegil]

Mim- Left behind no legacy.



Doesn't the fact that I voted for him leave a legacy?

We see so much less of Beleg when compared to Frodo- pages and pages less. And yet in that little bit of time we have with him Beleg proves that he is an amazing person. If we had the exposure to him we have to Frodo, I think Beleg would win this contest quite easily.

and yet...

Mim- He has a chapter in a book named after him (Of Mim the Dwarf).

Sauron- One of the best selling books of all time is named after him (The Lord of the Rings).

Odd contradiction here tummy. So you can vote for Beleg, which was a good choice, on the grounds that he made an impact in such a short segment and yet you use the same reasoning against Mim.

[the phantom]

Odd contradiction here tummy. So you can vote for Beleg, which was a good choice, on the grounds that he made an impact in such a short segment and yet you use the same reasoning against Mim.
I think not. My point on Beleg is that in his short appearance he manages to be quite awesome. Mim was not, so the two are completely different. I believed that if Beleg had received equal text time that he would've blown Frodo away. In other words, we got to know Frodo better, and that gave him an advantage. Beleg was every bit as kind, forgiving, etc all the other virtues Frodo had, only the Elf got less coverage.

Mim and Sauron on the other hand- my point about them had not to do with textual coverage, but that Sauron was so ridiculously important that a book was named after him. THE book in terms of Middle-Earth. Tolkien could have spent every day of his life writing Mim's life story, and he still would've been but a speck next to Sauron. No amount of increased coverage could catch him up.

[Gollum the Great]

++Gorthaur

Mim is a little brat who thinks he's the one who matters. I despise that sort.

[Groin Redbeard]

++Sauron

However much I like dwarves, I have to vote for the most interesting character out of the two. For me the equation is likability over interest, Sauron is far more interesting than Mim.:)

[Strongbow]

++Sauron

Ash Sauron durbatulûk.

[Morthoron]

Hmmm...a despicable dwarf or a despicable Maia? A cunning ring or a cunning runt?

I'll go with Mr. Mordor...++Gorthaur

[Lalwendë]

++Mim the Petty Dwarf

Because he amuses me and because petty means 'toilet' in Lancastrian so I always grin when I hear his name but Sauron's a bit depressing in comparison.

[Nerwen]

Sauron- Attempted to take over the world. Nearly succeeded. Stopped by Eru.

...but more directly stopped by a psychotic midget tripping over. Oh, and lack of OH&S. I mean, if there'd only been a safety railing at the Crack of Doom... never mind.

Even so, as a loyal denizen of Tol-in-Gaurhoth, I'll naturally vote–

++Sauron.

I mean... come on... Mîm? How'd he even get this far?

[skip spence]

Despite falling behind early on, Sauron the Great has crushed Mim by 10 votes to 5 and will face Beleg in the quarter-finals. Mim, again the last of his kind, is once more on the losing end.

Next up is another First Age showdown: Glaurung, father of dragons and master of stinging sarcasm, is to play Maedhos, everyone's favourite lefty and in the end, a victim of bitter irony.

Match 3 of round 2:

Glaurung vs. Maedhros

[Andsigil]

++Maedhros

Maedhros is one of the most tragic figures in The Silmarillion, with his misguided sense of obligation dominating his natural compassion and goodness. He has all of the doom of Turin without all of the melodrama.

He and Eol are two characters I wish Tolkien had written more about.

[Groin Redbeard]

++Maedhros

Despite the fact the his doom was of his own making, he is a very tragic character(as stated by Andsigil). He is by far the best of the sons of Feanor, and has a lot more meat to his backround. Glaurung is skin and bones when it comes to which character is the most interesting.

[skip spence]

So Beleg overtook Frodo Baggins himself!
Don't look so surprised, Nogrod. Looking back, this was the deciding moment of that match (remember Frodo won by one measly vote):

I'm afraid Frodo will just walk away with victory from this so I have to try and help the other side. I've nothing against Frodo, quite on the contrary, but we need some believable opposition in the form of votes to make this more interesting. :)

++ Beleg

Now I just have to come up with a reason...


Poor Frodo... He will be looking at you when he goes home, and there will be tears in his blue puppy eyes.

[Ilya]

Mmm. No question. ++Maedhros.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Maedros

But he should have listened to his brother (Maglor).

[Gollum the Great]

Where are the dragon-lovers?

++Glaurung

Father of Dragons.

[Morthoron]

++Glaurung

Maedhros was more handicapped by his inability to overcome his vow than the loss of his hand. Glaurung was the first great dragon, and was wonderfully evil and cunning, particularly at Nargothrond.

[Thinlómien]

++ Maedhros

He's my favourite.

[mormegil]

++ Maedhros

Glaurung couldn't even fly....seriously, how cool can a flightless dragon be...or balrog for that matter.

[the phantom]

Ooh, a tough choice here. Both of them are pretty awesome. It's a tie in my mind.

++ Maedhros

Because I like him more.

[Nogrod]

Ooh, a tough choice here. Both of them are pretty awesome. It's a tie in my mind.Exactly my words. I could replace any of the LotR heroes with either one... well almost any. :rolleyes:

And I'm afraid I need to draw the same conclusion as tp made.

++ Maedhros

All the left-handers unite! :)

But someone should really take the side of the sarcastic dragon as well.


Poor Frodo... He will be looking at you when he goes home, and there will be tears in his blue puppy eyes.Haha. Referring to Elijah Wood now are we? True, he made a lot of damage to Frodo's character in the movies, at least in what goes for taking him as a believable tragic hero who grows and changes in the process where his life takes a totally different path...

[Gollum the Great]

++ Maedhros

All the left-handers unite! :)


Oh man! I like them both but if I'd remembered that I would have gone with Maedhros. You can't beat a left-hander.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

How can Maedros beat Glaurung?

Just because one cannot figure out if he is basicly a good guy that does eveil deeds or an evil guy that does good deeds, then people go on and on about the depth and diversity of the charachter.

Glaurung is amazing, he does not need wings he can put you under his spell and if he does not decide to kill you, he can trash talk you untill you do it your self.

++Glaurung the Golden

[Lalwendë]

An Elf who couldn't roll his own cigs versus a Dragon? Come on....

++Glaurung

[Aganzir]

Where are the dragon-lovers?
Eaten by Glaurung. That's the sort of gratitude a dragon expresses.

++Maedhros

I'm not especially fond of dragons but I love Fëanor and his sons.

[Nerwen]

A difficult one. Glaurung's so much cooler than the declawed pet dragons you always seem to get nowadays...

but I've always liked

++Maedhros.

EDIT: fixed typo.

[skip spence]

The deadline has expired and Maedhros steamrolls Glarung by 10 votes to 4.

Match 4 of round 2:

Now for an eagerly anticipated match. Two of the hot favourites to win the Cup will go at it and the winner has a good chance of reaching the final now after Frodo's untimely departure. Saruman made an impressing start to the tournament, knocking Gollum out in the first round. Can he do the same to the mighty Boromir?

Boromir vs. Saruman

[Morthoron]

++Saruman

The dialogues of Saruman are intriguing, more so than those of Boromir (who had to basically die to be a redeemable character). Crows and gibbets!

[Ilya]

++Boromir

He may not be as much fun as Saruman, but his redemption and death cast a shadow over the rest of the books in a way that Saruman's menace never did for me.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Boromir

After all, this is a Popularity poll and Sarman
has almost zero likeability.

[Strongbow]

++Boromir

One does not simply beat Boromir. This being said, Boromir seems more like a real person than many of the other characters because you see multiple dimensions of him.

[Andsigil]

++Boromir

Saruman falls from grace out of weakness. Boromir achieves redemption for his weakness at Amon Hen.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Saruman

Because, if we are to look at this as a popularity contest, Boromir bored me. Saruman, though a nasty sort who reminds me of some of my rather awful relatives, was, to me, more complex and more interesting.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The dialogues of Saruman are intriguing, more so than those of Boromir (who had to basically die to be a redeemable character).
Now, now. That is pretty nasty towards Boromir. Saruman was great, but Boromir certainly can't be degraded like that. If he were against somebody of less "stature" than Saruman, it would be very probable I would have voted him. He is a very nice and interesting character with a very sad and touching destiny.

But now, I am going to once again shed some light on why I like Saruman so much by putting myself into a dialogue with the posts above :)

He may not be as much fun as Saruman, but his redemption and death cast a shadow over the rest of the books in a way that Saruman's menace never did for me.
Saruman does not cast a shadow, Saruman emits the shards of broken light which penetrate all the books, from Silm/UT to the LotR. And even in The Hobbit, you can "hear" him there, "sense" him there, as one of the "council of the white wizards"... most fascinating.

After all, this is a Popularity poll and Sarman
has almost zero likeability.
If I were to say whom I like the most in Tolkien's world, Saruman would be probably the first one to come on my mind.

One does not simply beat Boromir. This being said, Boromir seems more like a real person than many of the other characters because you see multiple dimensions of him.
And Saruman does not have multiple dimensions in him? On the contrary! That's what connects him with Boromir, actually, I think. He is the White Wizard, the Maia Curumo in the realms beyond the mortal world, he is the great Head of the Order, the fair man with raven hair and beautiful voice who came to Middle-Earth, he is the landlord who took Isengard into his custody, he is the Enemy of Sauron, and he is the traitor, the master of Uruk-hai and the beggar on the road. He struggles to defeat the Enemy, loses to his pride, struggles with his fear and you can feel how the good inside him is trying to surface still, when Gandalf offers him mercy, and when he imprisons Gandalf and the Black Riders come, and even a bit when he talks to Frodo. Come on, he is just brilliant.

I cannot vote otherwise than for my favourite :)

++Saruman

[skip spence]

Boromir is a bit annoying, always going on and on about how great and courageous he and his people are. He's also the only non-hobbit of the fellowship I can relate to, and I don't blame him from trying to take the ring, he simply wanted to protect his people and became desperate, doing what he though the least bad of two evils. His only fault (apart from pride) is a lack of faith, Estel I think Tolkien calls it, and that's not really fault at all in my book.

Sauruman is okay but I'd have like to see him doing something Wizard-like once in a while. In the movies he could control the weather from hundreds of miles away which of course was ridiculous, but in the book he can't do anything but hold speeches that turn into bitter tantrums (funny ones though).

++Boromir

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

++Saruman

Because of his many colours in a time of black and white.

[Lalwendë]

Oh what a choice!!!! I so do not want to knock out the one who I don't choose....

But the choice was made from the start, because I am such a simpering fan...and others compared to him are just brigands who roll in the reek. If you took the figure of Merlin and split it down the middle then one side would be the kindly, cantankerous Gandalf, the other side would be the mysterious and aloof Saruman. He's easily as archetypal a wizard as Gandalf, and more intriguing because he locks himself away in Orthanc doing who knows what kinds of interesting experiments...The 'mad professor' of Middle-earth :cool:

++Saruman

[Aganzir]

++skippy

Grrr I hope you're ashamed of yourself for forcing me to choose between Boromir and Saruman!

Not that it was that difficult, I would just have hoped both of them had survived.

There are many things I don't like about Boromir - patriots like that are always a bit scary, putting the needs of their country above their own. However, Gondor was apparently his true love for the good of which he did all his deeds, and who am I to judge that?

I love his pride and his dry sense of humour. Also, he seemed to treat Gandalf and others as his equals - he never indicated he thought he was above them, but neither did he accept without a word everything that Gandalf or Aragorn said. He had a mind and will of his own.

Some day, I'll draw that death scene.

Okay

--skippy

++BOROMIR

[the phantom]

Boromir is great. He's the member of the Fellowship that I can really identify with. I mean, the plan to send the Ring to Mordor was madness, and they avoided capture only through amazing circumstance and in the end the mission failed. Frodo didn't destroy the Ring. Hardly a surprise since at the beginning of the book he was not even capable of throwing the Ring into his cooking fire at Gandalf's request.

Boromir's reaction to the whole thing seems downright sensible, and were I in his position I imagine I would've tried to snatch the Ring just as he did.

Besides being brave, hardy, a great captain, and all that stuff, he was simply one of the most realistic characters in the book.

++Boromir

[mormegil]

I don't much care for either, but I really dislike Boromir so...

++Saruman

[Groin Redbeard]

Ooh, this is a hard choice, I really like both of these characters.:( However, I shall vote for the character that I most identify with. For king and country!

++Boromir

All my reasons for voting for him are already stated.:)

[Nogrod]

I'm kind of agreeing with many here that we should eliminate Skip indeed for presenting us with such a choice. ;)

But aren't these two, Saruman and Boromir so much alike?

Both were great heroes of their days and both were confident they could win the war themselves in a way they saw it fit. Also they both had to perform a treachery on their friends to succeed - and they both died because of that (remember that most of the heroes do survive the war in the LotR unlike in more modern stories).

I do like Boromir as a person more but I find Saruman much more fascinating. And also because there will be an ample Boromir -fan club around I will try to even this out a bit.

++ Saruman

[skip spence]

It was close but in the end Boromir won by 8 votes to 7. Saruman will have to scurry away and cause trouble elsewhere.


Now for two character accounted wise. One is, according to Lal anyway, a non-violent hippy-meister who invites his weird friends to his homely house. The other has the biggest eyebrows in the free world and one of the worse tempers too. According to some sources he eats Hobbits.

Gandalf vs. Elrond

[Thinlómien]

++Gandalf

No question. Such a gentle and wise person with amazing sense of humour and a temper that gives him an edge.

[Andsigil]

++Elrond

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Gandalf

There is no contest in this for me, regardless of who he's up against. When you're a much abused kid and you have to turn to books for a proper role-model, the one who provides it will forever have a more than merely special place in your heart. That consideration aside, Gandalf is at turns rather predictable and astonishingly unpredictable. And when the war was over, though he was largely responsible for moving the free peoples toward victory, he didn't go around hogging credit. He did the job he was sent to do, and when it was done, he surrendered his stewardship without any apparent regret or complaint. "Well done, thou good and faithful servant." Would that our so-called "public servants" did their jobs half so well, with half as much humility.

That said, Elrond's a good steward, too, but he did not have to bear the weight of the future of all Middle-earth as Gandalf did. He also did what was needed (and perhaps asked) of him, and did it well. There likely would have been no king to whom Gandalf could surrender his stewardship, but for Elrond; even so, without Gandalf, there would have been no Middle-earth free of Sauron's threat for that king to rule.

Rather an unfair match-up, I think, but it does not change my vote. :)

[Morthoron]

++Gandalf

What a delightfully irritable old coot!

[Ilya]

++Gandalf

For his sense of humor, if nothing else.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

++Gandalf

No question for me. He is just a great fellow.

And I have to comment on the way Saruman was outed - that surprised me, actually. Before the match started, I thought that he is going to be an obvious winner from the beginning till the very end. But not that I mind - it has actually eliminated the possibility I was worried about all the time: that eventually, I will have to choose between Saruman and Galadriel, and I really don't know what would I do.

[skip spence]

And I have to comment on the way Saruman was outed
Saruman is outed!? Saruman of many colours of the Rainbow, eh? :D


++Gandalf

Elrond is out of his league here.

[Aganzir]

Saruman is outed!? Saruman of many colours of the Rainbow, eh? :D
Ha ha (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=550410&postcount=12832) ha (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=550753&postcount=12840)! :D

++Gandalf

I just like him more than Elrond.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

The whloe rumor of Gandalf's eating hobbits is based on
a misconception, based on a comment by a distant
(and probably tipsy) relative of Thranduil's butler, reported in the Red Book.

Jst Look! Bilbo the hobbit on a pony, my dear!
Isn't it delicious

+ + Gandalf the maia

[Lalwendë]

It's got to be...

++Grandalf

Not only one of the most famous pipe smokers ever, but sarcastic too. Bonus! And he's actually much more of a crusty old hippy than Elrond, he doesn't even have a house, he just crashes on other people's sofas for generations of Men and wanders round with unkempt beard and hair and a mucky old cloak. No wonder they turned him into Gandalf the White, he probably needed a bath.

:smokin:

[mormegil]

++Gandalf

I like him but the fact that Elrond allows elfs who sing 'Tra-la-la-lally' makes me dislike him.

[Groin Redbeard]

++Gandalf

Elrond may have been active in his early life but he has turned to a man of just words in the FotR, no matter how wise he is. Gandalf is a man of actions and words, and is much older than Elrond.

[Andsigil]

Poor Elrond is getting thumped.

No points for his glorious past?

[Nerwen]

Nope.

++Gandalf.

[Strongbow]

++Gandalf

Because, he is a Maia. All Elrond has is famous parents and a famous brother.

[Eönwë]

++Gandalf

Just who else would you want hitting your door with their staff? :p

[skip spence]

Wow, Gandalf really mopped the floor with the hapless Elrond. 14-1 is an embarrassing result to take back to Rivendell, even at the hands of the ever so popular Grey Pilgrim.

Match 6 of Round 1:
That there will be a female presence in the quarter-finals is guaranteed, because in the next matchup Galadriel will face Lúthien. These two must have known each other well back the Hidden Kingdom. Do you think they got along?

Lúthien vs. Galadriel

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Actually I think Galadriel was more into
girl talk with Melian.

Difficult choice, but I think one of the tallest
of the Noldor, and one who didn't take any
nonsense from Feanor, has a better chance
against the Grey Pilgrim. So
+ + Galadriel

[Strongbow]

++Galadriel

Tinuviel might have been magical, but did she have Haldir and her own country? I think not!

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Luthien

Because she managed to do one thing Galadriel did not: make at least one of the Valar change his mind. Maybe it was pride that got in the way for Galadriel, but Luthien still managed to pull it off.

[Aganzir]

++Galadriel

It's that pride that I like, and her life in general and all. She's a character whom I admire, but not a favourite character or anything (which is strange since she very well could be).

[the phantom]

Hmmm...

I think I'll have to go with Luthien on this one. Galadriel is a worthy champion, but I just don't like her much. The whole business with the Ring- for someone who is supposed to be wise and has been around since the first age, she seems too easily tempted into believing that she could actually use the Ring to overthrow Sauron. I don't recall Elrond, for instance, being tempted so strongly, despite Tolkien stating that he would've had a better shot at actually pulling it off.

In addition, she allows her Elven Ring to be spotted by Frodo (flaunting it, it seems to me). Gandalf and Elrond both hid theirs much better.

And how can you argue with the one person who has actually changed the mind of Mandos, and sung Melkor to sleep? I don't imagine she'll win this contest, but I shall support-

++Luthien

[mormegil]

++Galadriel

She just seems more 'real' than Luthien although this battle fo the heavy hitting females is difficult.

[Andsigil]

++Galadriel. I've always had a thing for older women.

[Morthoron]

Hmmm...tough one.

I like both characters, but Luthien was hotter :Merisu:, and took on both Sauron and Morgoth face-to-face :eek:. The girl's got guts and glamor, glorious!:D

++Luthien

[Thinlómien]

What kind of question is this? A whimsical girl who achieved most of her great deeds with her looks, or a strong-willed woman who achieved her success with her wisdom?

++Galadriel

And furthermore, I must say that for me, her story is more touching and more sad than Lúthien's.

Aieeeeeeeeeeeee I kind of hope Galadriel doesn't get through, though. Because, otherwise I have to start choosing between her, Maedhros and Gandalf, my three favourites, which is going to kill me... And there's Boromir too? :eek: I'm just glad we don't have Finrod, Haleth, Théoden or Gildor here and that Merry didn't make it through the first round...

[Lalwendë]

++Galadriel.

In the case of which was more gorgeous, Galadriel certainly had more admirers. But this shouldn't be about that - and Galadriel made much more use of not only her looks but her talents. Nor was she embroiled in a quest ostensibly just to get her dad to accept her punk boyfriend, she was nation-building. And the way she handles her many admirers is impressive. She's Goddess-like. :cool:

[Nerwen]

Well, obviously I'm going to vote

++Galadriel.

[A Little Green]

++ Galadriel

No question. Just looking at her motives and Lúthien's for doing their great deeds, so to say. Besides, Lúthien's story is lovely but her personality is too much the basic beautiful, mysterious and gentle-hearted woman that tends to annoy me.

[skip spence]

Lúthien is in conception more like an Elf in a traditional sense: a youthful, magical creature dancing in a forest glade, beautiful and illusive; you call out and *poff* she's gone. The story of Beren and Lúthien is also more like a traditional fairy-tale I suppose which doesn't fit seamlessly into the more serious Silmarillion. I really enjoyed the story in Lost Tales (those cats were well cool) and Lúthien is at her best here. This is a vote for Tinúviel:

++Lúthien

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

What kind of a question is that?

++Galadriel

EDIT: Eeek. I am scared. I did not read anything from this thread (only seeing the boldened "++Galadriel" and "++Lúthien" words there) before I posted...

[skip spence]

It promised to be a real cat fight but Lúthien didn't have the claws to resist Galadriel who wins 10-4.


Match 7 of Round 2:
These two need no introduction. Without further ado it's:

Aragorn vs. Samwise Gamgee

[Gollum the Great]

Aragorn?.... or Sam? Aragorn?.... or Samwise?.... Descendant of Kings?.... or a hobbit? Weeell, I always liked them both, both have a sort of quiet, retiring disposition, not thrilled by becoming big or popular. But...

++Sam

...because Aragorn already knew how to be a hero and Sam had pick it up as he went along.

[Aganzir]

++Sam

No specific reasons, except that I just like him more.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I see the second-round matches are all either perfectly clear without any doubt, as I just love one of the characters (Saruman, Galadriel) or they are totally unclear because I don't like either of the characters that much (that Maedhros thing, or this one). But, thinking of what I said back then during the first round, I will vote

++Aragorn

although I am inclined to believe that if I were in a different mood (after reading the second half of the Two Towers, for example), I would have voted for Sam.

They are both nice, nevertheless - just not that brilliant.

P.S.
...because Aragorn already knew how to be a hero and Sam had pick it up as he went along.
Actually, Aragorn didn't know, and that's exactly why I voted him in both rounds. I just realised this a while ago and I started to like a lot his uncertainity by Rauros and overall during the course of the journey, after Gandalf's death especially, too.

[Thinlómien]

++Aragorn

He has a better sense of humour, for starters. ;)

[Ilya]

Oh, this is a hard one. I like them both.

++Sam

I just can't not vote for him.

[Strongbow]

++Aragorn

Because he has more names, and this is something I can admire.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Aragorn

Because all his "Lo!" and "Behold!"s make me laugh. And other reasons. :)

[Nogrod]

...because Aragorn already knew how to be a hero and Sam had pick it up as he went along.I'd disagree slightly on this matter. For isn't it one of the central themes with Aragorn that he has to learn to accept his inheritance and to claim the kingship with not only his deeds but with his identity, that he has to learn himself to become what he is? And it doesn't go that easily - just like it's not easy for Sam to take the decisions and hold the fate in his hands in Mordor? So aren't these two as well so alike on some things?

I'd like to abstain from voting with this one as neither of them are my absolute favourites but I tend to like them both in different ways.

If I'd be on for a night of drinking beer and merriment I'd choose Sam as my company but if I'd wish to discuss the grand issues of this world with a jug of wine I'd choose Aragorn... :)

Darn hard one.

++ Aragorn

It could have gone the other way as well...

[mormegil]

Aragorn doesn't shower, he really doesn't do much. The crown is handed to him through no real effort of his own. Simply put, by having such a company selected for him he was made 'great'.

Sam on the other hand is the best. He is noble, brave and courageous.

++Sam

Seriously, we cannot let Same lose.

[Lalwendë]

I really and honestly cannot choose here on any substantive grounds. When I was younger I'd have chosen Aragorn without a moment's thought, but as I've got older I've come to see just how important, and what a thoroughly wonderful, character Samwise is.

So I'm simply going to choose for the one who I perceive to be the underdog and go:

++Sam

[Groin Redbeard]

Aragorn doesn't shower, he really doesn't do much. The crown is handed to him through no real effort of his own. Simply put, by having such a company selected for him he was made 'great'. Are you serious?:eek: I can't believe what an insult you gave to Aragorn. He was one of the highlights of Gandalf's ultimate plan to bring peace back into Arda and to unite it's people. Everything about Aragorn is truly kingly. One of the truly remarkable parts of 'The Return of the King' is when Aragorn actually has to sneak into Minas Tirith to save Merry and Eowyn's lives, all because of his respect for the cities people and his humility. That is a true king!

++Aragorn

[Morthoron]

Aragorn had a lot more going for him than the run-of-mill fellow from Middle-earth: an incredible pedigree, protection and education from the Elves, and support from a woman (an Elvish one) who loved him. No one can doubt his bravery in battle, compassion in dealing with those lesser than him and his ability to lead men. One could say it was in his upbringing.

Sam? He was a gardner and lucky enough to learn his letters. Yet through perseverance and loyalty he managed to guide the most dangerous object in the world to the most dangerous place in the world, half-carrying his master most of the way, fighting a monstrous spider solo, and giving up the Ring out of friendship.

++Sam

[Tuor in Gondolin]

While it's close, aand it's tempting to go with the
Elfstone, Sam won repeeated elections whereas
Aragorn was "elected" only once and that by a hardly secret
ballot, so a vote goes to Rosie's significant other
+ + Samwise .

[mormegil]

Are you serious?:eek: I can't believe what an insult you gave to Aragorn. He was one of the highlights of Gandalf's ultimate plan to bring peace back into Arda and to unite it's people.

Exactly, all he was is a pawn to Gandalf. Aragorn was given everything and almost botched it anyway.

Sneaking in is more like a thief than a king says I.

[Andsigil]

++Aragorn

Because if I had to make a choice, I'd rather be Aragorn than Samwise.

[skip spence]

Sneaking in is more like a thief than a king says I.

Don't say 'sneaking'! It only reminds me of He who isn't here.

I'll make this brief as I'm about to go to work.

++Sam

He is truly a character.

[Nerwen]

Don't belittle Aragorn, people. He's cool, especially in the first book.

All the same I think I'll vote for the brave and loyal

++Samwise the Stouthearted.

It''s just not fair to have all the vertically-challenged characters eliminated from the contest.

[Groin Redbeard]

Exactly, all he was is a pawn to Gandalf. Aragorn was given everything and almost botched it anyway.Then wouldn't Sam also be considered a pawn that Gandalf used? That type of logic is could be used both ways.

By the way, what do you mean Aragorn was given everything? He started with nothing, he fought for his throne and right to rule. I don't see why you have to try and downgrade some Tolkien's characters just because you don't have anything good to say about the character you voted for! Both of them are amazing characters who deserve to win, but perhaps you should remember the old adage: if you don't have anything good to say don't say anything at all!

[Morthoron]

By the way, what do you mean Aragorn was given everything? He started with nothing, he fought for his throne and right to rule.

Hmmm...we seem to have people posting at opposite poles here (I guess that makes the forum bi-polar). Aragorn certainly did not start with 'nothing', he was the chieftain of the Dunedain, leader of his clan, and he was treated like a prince in exile in Imladris. That 'Oh woe is me, I am a friendless drifter' Aragorn is from the movies, not from the books. But from the opposite viewpoint, Aragorn was not handed everything, nor was he merely Gandalf's lackey. He did indeed 'earn' the right to be King.

I don't see why you have to try and downgrade some Tolkien's characters just because you don't have anything good to say about the character you voted for! Both of them are amazing characters who deserve to win, but perhaps you should remember the old adage: if you don't have anything good to say don't say anything at all!

People can say whatever they like. People can despise certain characters, and they can love other characters. We may not agree -- so what?

[skip spence]

Because if I had to make a choice, I'd rather be Aragorn than Samwise.

Not into birds with hairy feet, eh?

This contest was very tight. Sam took the early lead but Aragorn came back with a vengeance and had the upper hand for a while. Sam the brave-hearted hung in there though and managed to get enough late votes to win and send Aragorn packing by the score of 9 to 7.

Match 8 of Round 1:
In this final match of the second round Túrin Turambar, who just managed to defeat Gimli in the first round, faces Beorn, who caused an upset by knocking out Faramir. Which one of these Orc-slayers deserve a berth in the quarter-finals?

Túrin Turambar vs. Beorn

[Morthoron]

Well, I really don't care one way or another for either character, really. But I suppose Beorn isn't as reprehensible as Turin, who is a walking psychological case-study for any number of syndromes and manias.

++Beorn

[Groin Redbeard]

Hmmm...we seem to have people posting at opposite poles here (I guess that makes the forum bi-polar). Aragorn certainly did not start with 'nothing', he was the chieftain of the Dunedain, leader of his clan, and he was treated like a prince in exile in Imladris. The leadership of a clan of exiles in order to defend people who have forgotten you and treat you with distrust is more like a responsibility than an honor. Also, it was only right that he should be treated as royalty since Aragorn is royalty, but once again, he's earned that through his wisdom and prowess as a fighter.

As to this match between Beorn and Turin, I would have to vote for Turin. Beorn is nice and simple, but I really like The Children of Hurin and Turin's adventures. Especially how everything ends in ruin for him and his sister, not to mention his Hurin and Morwen, it is absolutely heartbreaking.

++Turin

[Aganzir]

++Beorn

Bears, honeycakes, house in the forest, tame animal buddies.

[Gollum the Great]

++Turin

[Thinlómien]

++Beorn

No trace of self-pity in that guy - granted, his fate was kinder, too.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Beorn is nice, but... Túrin, especially since CoH, is really far more complex character.

++Túrin

And funny, as I really did not like him or his tale when I read the Sil for the first time...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

As Morgoth was overheard to opine to Sauron:
"You can't do business with that hothead Sonny (ah,
I mean Turin)". Now if only the Blacksword had had
the self control of Michael (oops, that is) of his
cousin.

+ + Beorn

[Andsigil]

Funny, I just finished reading Children of Hurin, which is like the extended version of the Turin story from The Silmarillion.

Turin's a good fighter, but he's too proud, arrogant, and stubborn for his own good. If I didn't care for him and his melodramatic antics and his total disregard for the advice of all of his friends before, I thoroughly dislike him now. In fact, if he weren't slaying orcs (his only redeeming quality), he'd be a veritable villain.

++Beorn, all the way.

[Morthoron]

The leadership of a clan of exiles in order to defend people who have forgotten you and treat you with distrust is more like a responsibility than an honor. Also, it was only right that he should be treated as royalty since Aragorn is royalty, but once again, he's earned that through his wisdom and prowess as a fighter.

And you're certainly entitled to have that opinion, and make such assumptions, even though I don't necessarily agree with all of it. See how easy that is?

From a realistic point of view, believing one has any sense of entitlement for a throne his ancestors lost millenia previously is rather like saying you deserve to be Roman emperor because you are somehow related to Julius Caesar, even if you can prove direct father/son lineage back that far and have his sword (it reminds me of the serf saying to Arthur that watery tarts waving about scimitars is no basis for a system of government). One of the more irritating plot lines Tolkien developed as far as impingeing on one's suspension of disbelief.

[skip spence]

Give the guy a break, he was cursed by a God you know, a Vala who together with his lesser cousins made the earth and almost everything on it. With his luck and the lousy childhood and adolescence, can we really blame him for being a bit messed up? I agree with Legate that he was hard to get in the Silmarillion but great in Children Of Hurin.

++Túrin

[Elmo]

Turin for the win. He's far more interesting more realistic character. Everyone has his bad and good side so I have more affinity with him.

+ + Turin

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Beorn

Because I really, really have issues with Turin. :)

[mormegil]

I don't see why you have to try and downgrade some Tolkien's characters just because you don't have anything good to say about the character you voted for! Both of them are amazing characters who deserve to win, but perhaps you should remember the old adage: if you don't have anything good to say don't say anything at all!

Groin, I vote for who I want but I am not taking this very seriously. I'm trying to have fun and make some people laugh, generally I only make me laugh but it's still a laugh. Remember this is mirth and not necessarily a serious forum. If this was in Novice and Newcomers, for example, I'd be a bit more serious with it. I actually love Aragorn but it's fun to poke fun.

Anyway,

++Turin

Have you ever smelled wet bear?:eek:

[the phantom]

Beorn is a bit too much of a Tom Bombadil for me to like. Oh, he's likable on a personal level, but he doesn't fit nicely into Middle Earth given the info we have on him.

Turin though- his story is perhaps my favorite of all. And I feel he should be compensated for the terrible curse placed on him and the things that resulted. And he really was a good guy deep down. Just see his dealings with Mim, his friendship with Beleg, and his treatment of dear old Sador, and you'll see the type of guy he is when he's not being driven to the brink by unbelievably bad luck (thanks to Morgoth's curse).

++ Turin

[Strongbow]

++Beorn

Mmm...honey and clotted cream.

[Ilya]

++Turin

Gotta love it when Tolkien channels Greek tragedy. Besides, bears (http://www.colbertnation.com/home) are brutal killing machines.

[Nerwen]

++Túrin

I'm glad to see someone takes the bear threat seriously!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I'm glad to see someone takes the bear threat seriously!

So its finally revealed.
Nerwen is Stephen Colbert !

[Nerwen]

Vala-less killing machines!

[Nogrod]

he doesn't fit nicely into Middle Earth given the info we have on him.That's very much true indeed.

Also Túrin is just marvellously tragic hero.

++ Túrin

[skip spence]

Another tight contest but Túrin was strongest in the end, winning by 10-7, thus securing the last spot in the quarter finals. Is this another instance where early success will turn sour in the end for Neithan the Wronged? The quarter-finals will begin tomorrow.

[skip spence]

The second round offered plenty of good and even matches but few surprises. The biggest upset was without a doubt the demise of Frodo Baggins himself, at the hands of the relatively obscure Beleg Strongbow.

A few statistics so far:

Gandalf has received 24 votes so far in total which is 5 more than Galadriel who comes second.

In matches between a character born in the first age and a character born in the third age, the first age player has come out on top 75 % of the times.

Three of the nine members of the fellowship is still in the running. Five character are representing the Silmarillion while four are representing The Lord Of The Rings.

Odds from Betberry:
17/6 Gandalf; 5/1 Sam; 7/1 Boromir; 12/1 Túrin; 15/1 Maedhros, Galadriel; 50/1 Sauron; 100/1 Beleg

The quarter finals:

Beleg Strongbow (8) - Sauron (6)
Maedhros (6) - Boromir (8)

Gandalf (7) - Galadriel (6)
Samwise (6) - Túrin (10)

[skip spence]

Quarter Final 1:

In arguably the weakest 1/8 final, Beleg, who sensationally knocked out Frodo in the second round, faces Sauron, who has plenty of support on this board, probably more for his entertaining werewolf isle than for his evil schemes for world domination.

Beleg vs. Sauron:

[mormegil]

++Beleg

I vacationed with him once and he was a great chap!

[Elmo]

++ Sauron

Now there was a maia who knew how to get things done.

[Nerwen]

Actually, Elmo,

++Sauron

was only one Maia.;)

[Morthoron]

++Sauron

[Gollum the Great]

++Beleg

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

++Beleg

Because he smells of curry

[the phantom]

Ooh, tough one here. Both would be great to advance. I'd love to champion the underdog here (Beleg is one of my favorite characters), but I think advancing Sauron would lead to more interesting semis and finals perhaps. Plus you simply can't pass over his accomplishments and the amazing amount of time that he was able to be a force in Middle-Earth.

++ Sauron

[Tuor in Gondolin]

++ Beleg

If you're going to walk down a dark alley,
who better for reliable, potent muscle?

[mormegil]

Plus you simply can't pass over his accomplishments and the amazing amount of time that he was able to be a force in Middle-Earth.


Yes if you count all the time we was a mere malicious presence, but essentially a non-entity and wasn't really in power but other than that yes he was great. C'mon he spent the majority of time trying to get his power back and bowing to the might of Numenor. He was a pawn of Melkor who his real purpose was to get him back and he failed.

[the phantom]

Yes if you count all the time we was a mere malicious presence
I do count that time, because his will and his servants were still a force in Middle Earth through that time. That's more than you can say for pretty much everyone else.

And yes, he did for a time bow to Numenor, but it was all a plot to bring about its downfall. Which he pulled off, thank you very much.

[Strongbow]

++Beleg

Namesake, rather than avatar.

[Groin Redbeard]

++Sauron

Has done more for the sake of evil than any other character in Arda, besides Morgoth.

[Elmo]

++Sauron

Has done more for the sake of evil than any other character in Arda, besides Morgoth.

Exactly, everyone loves a trier.

[mormegil]

I do count that time, because his will and his servants were still a force in Middle Earth through that time. That's more than you can say for pretty much everyone else.

And yes, he did for a time bow to Numenor, but it was all a plot to bring about its downfall. Which he pulled off, thank you very much.

So then Galadriel is your pick eh?

[the phantom]

So then Galadriel is your pick eh?
Huh? Her match isn't until later. This is the Sauron-Beleg match.

Are you trying to draw a parallel between Sauron and Galadriel? She never took down Numenor. And she definitely didn't come within an inch of taking over the world. And her actions didn't cause the shape of the earth to be altered either. She's not comparable when it comes to deeds. Her chance for victory lies in personality, her positive dealings with others (Aragorn, Gimli, etc), and possibly her looks.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Sauron

Beleg just never did anything for me. shrug

[Andsigil]

++Beleg

He was a true friend, indeed.

Besides, I just hate evil on principle, no matter how interesting it might be.

[Ilya]

++Beleg

If this were some sort of power cup, the one in need of clearasil would have it. But, Beleg's far more personable.

[Nogrod]

Go Beleg, Go!

++ Beleg

Let's resist the Betberry odds!

I'd love to champion the underdog here (Beleg is one of my favorite characters), but I think advancing Sauron would lead to more interesting semis and finals perhaps.On the contrary! We only need to eliminate Boromir, Gandalf and Sam after kicking Sauron out and this will really become interesting! :)

[mormegil]

On the contrary! We only need to eliminate Boromir, Gandalf and Sam after kicking Sauron out and this will really become interesting! :)

Not Sam! All the others are fine.

[skip spence]

Beleg has sensationally reached the semi-finals by defeating Sauron 8 votes to 6.

Quarter final 2:
You could say these guys are morally ambiguous but their form has been entirely good so far. Maedhros knocked out Bilbo in the first round while Boromir was too strong for Saruman in the second round. Only one can progress further. Who will it be?

Maedhros - Boromir

[Morthoron]

Hmmm..I voted against both of these dudes if I recall. Well, I guess I have to go on sheer battle prowess for this round, as I don't really care for either. Mad one-handed Maedhros would mop the floor with angsty Boromir.

++Maedhros

[Elmo]

Boromir++ Wasn't complicit in child-murder for one. And had a great lament written about him.

[mormegil]

++Maedhros

Chicks dig guys with one hand...

[Nogrod]

Boromir sure is one of those dearest to me in the LotR, but now I'm afraid he faces a bit too tough a competition.

Maedhros and Boromir are both alike in that they both craved for masterpieces of smithery and were ready to step out from their moral obligations to their friends, relatives, kin or allies to get that.

But there the similarities end for me.

Compare thir history of heroism in battle and governance; Boromir took one small town from the orcs... and didn't even manage to save two hobbits - and that's it. With Maedhros you have Dagor Aglareb, defending Himring (and with that denied the entrance to Beleriand) when all else was lost, forcing the union to regain lost lands and setting the siege of Angband which was lost mainly to the treachery of men etc

Or compare their tragicness. Boromir didn't get what he wanted and frustrated because of his people. Maedhros took part in the tragic events at Alqualondë, saw his father die firsthand after a glorious victory over Morgoth, was imprisoned in Thangorodrim for years, fought in Dagor Bragollach and Nirnaeth Arneodiad which were not lost because of him, took part in the second kinslaying because of the oath...

Compare their motives in their tragedy: Boromir got lured by a Ring and went mad with megalopsykhia concerning only his personal glory and petty humans of one town while Maedhros was bound by an oath to the Valar and he kept it to the bitter end even if he knew it would destroy him. :rolleyes:

So it will be

++ Maedhros

for me.

Go first age, go! :)

[Groin Redbeard]

++Boromir

Elmo is right when he talks about Boromir not being as complicated and Maedhros is and I think that is the main reason that people can relate to Boromir more. Unlike Maedhros, Boromir wasn't out to get revenge for his father or cause misery all for the sake of jewels. Instead Boromir set out with noble intentions of seeing the quest through until his road parted with Aragorn to Minas Tirith, but was in time corrupted by the Ring. Let's face it, Boromir's death was heroic and more tragic than Maedhros'.

[skip spence]

++Maedhros

Chicks dig guys with one hand...

They do? And is that a reason for you to vote for him?

++Maedhros

I've heard women go for him. And he had guts, you gotta give him that. As if trying to wrestle the Silmarils away from Morgoth with an army behind him wasn't hard enough, he also tries to nick 'em from the victorious army of the Valar with only an artsy singer for help. A man of his word, truly.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Boromir

Because this chick does not dig guys with one hand. :D

[mormegil]

They do? And is that a reason for you to vote for him?


So the legend goes. I thought of chopping off my hand many years ago but my wife was able to overcome the fact that I still had two so I figured I'd keep it.

[Gollum the Great]

++Boromir

[Strongbow]

++Maedhros

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I find Groin Redbeard's argument compelling.

And I like Sean Bean's Boromir portrayal in FOTR.

+ + Boromir.

[Ilya]

++Boromir

[Nogrod]

And I like Sean Bean's Boromir portrayal in FOTR.I liked it too, but that has absolutely nothing bearing on this one here, right?

It's about the character in the books, not on who made him look nice in a movie by Hollywood.

Just think about Maedhros played in a blockbuster film by... Daniel Craig, or Alan Rickman... or whoever you wish, Johnny Depp?

That doesn't chance things.

Let's not let Boromir win because he's a movie-favourite because of Sean Bean or PJ. Let's go for the story of Maedhros by J.R.R.!

Hah, that's the reason I wish to do away with the third age characters... :rolleyes:

Elmo is right when he talks about Boromir not being as complicatedYes. And the teletubbies are not too complicated either... :D

[Nerwen]

Yet another tricky choice... but I think

++Maedhros

gets the southpaw vote.;)

So the legend goes. I thought of chopping off my hand many years ago but my wife was able to overcome the fact that I still had two so I figured I'd keep it.

Awww...

[Nogrod]

++Maedhros

gets the southpaw vote.;)That's also a sound argument! :rolleyes:

Declared by another southpaw...

But better than making the vote because of just a movie actor - or not reading the Silm.! :D

[the phantom]

I don't think I'm going to vote in this match. I can't stand the thought that my vote may send one of these two home.

Boromir was the most sane person in all of LotR. Maedhros was probably the most interesting Elf left in ME after his father bit it.

*sigh*

Does there have to be a loser here?

[mormegil]

Does there have to be a loser here?


Tummy I may call you Skinner, as in Principal Seymore Skinner after that. This kind of warm-heartedness does not become you at all.

[skip spence]

Aye. In the end there can be only one, like Christoffer Lambert in Highlander. Uh... Nothing at all like that actually.

Don't chop your hand off though. You may find that chicks dig heroes like Meadhros, who lost his hand in epic fashion chained to a cliff wall by a vengeful God only to bounce back stronger than ever, but not so much average Joe's like Sador "Labadal", who slipped with the axe.

Currently the score is 6-6.

[Andsigil]

Okay, let's tip the scales in favor of:

++Boromir

[Aganzir]

++BOROMIR

No questions.

[skip spence]

By those last two votes the contest is decided and Boromir, Son of Denethor and Captain of the White Tower, advances to the semi-finals where he will face Beleg. Maedhros is thrown into a fiery pit.

Quarter Final 3:
This should be a good match. Two old friends from Valinor who've seen the light of the Trees, wise among the wise, and mighty on Middle Earth. It's:

Gandalf vs. Galadriel

[Morthoron]

++Gandalf

Hey, I've got to stick up for us curmudgeonly old farts.

[Strongbow]

++Galadriel

Up with the Lady of the Golden Wood!

[the phantom]

Another tough one. I love the Noldor rebels, and I'd love to see one of them win just to stick it to the Valar. But Gandalf is, well... Gandalf. I might sit back and later on give a vote to whoever is behind just to even things up.

[Gollum the Great]

Another tough one. I love the Noldor rebels, and I'd love to see one of them win just to stick it to the Valar. But Gandalf is, well... Gandalf.

That's about what I think.