The Middle Earth Popularity Cup

[skip spence]

Have you ever wondered who's the most popular Middle Earth character here on the downs? What better way to find out than by a silly popularity-game?

I've arranged a tournament grid of 32 main characters of JRRT's books which here follows (sorry if I forgot someone significant; Edit: I did, so Celeborn is out Sam in):



Frodo (5) vs. The Gaffer (1)
Beleg Strongbow (5) vs. Farmer Maggot (4)
Peregrin Took (2) vs. Mim the Petty Dwarf (5)
Sauron (5) vs. Tuor (5)

Bilbo (5) vs. Maedhros (6)
Glaurung (6) vs. Thorin Oakenshield (5)
Boromir (9) vs. Beren (3)
Saruman (9) vs. Gollum (4)

Gandalf (10) vs. Tom Bombadil (8)
Elrond (7) vs. Eowyn (7)
Meriadoc Brandybuck (6) vs. Luthien (7)
Fëanor (5) vs. Galadriel (9)

Aragorn (6) vs. Thingol (2)
Legolas (3) vs. Samwise (9)
Gimli (8) vs. Turin (8)
Faramir (6) vs. Beorn (8)

The winner of each tie will be decided by voting. The first character of each match-up to receive five votes from five different users advances to the next round, where he or she will face off against the winner of the tie below.

You don't have to motivate your choices but it would be nice :)

Voting rules revised:
The voting will now be allowed to continue for approx. 24 hours until a deadline set at 12.00 AM board time. This means the voting will not be stopped if a character reaches 5 before the deadline. If none of the characters has reached 5 when the deadline expires the voting will continue until one does. If the score is tied at 5 or higher when the deadline passes (this is new!) anyone may vote again and the first to do so decides the contest in sudden death fashion

[skip spence]

Match 1 of round 1.

Frodo Baggins vs. Gaffer Gamgee

These wonderful characters are short only in stature. Ringbearer and main protagonist Frodo comes into this tie as the favourite, but the Gaffer's armed with a bag of memorable quotes and could cause an upset. Who will prevail? Vote for your favourite now!

First to five wins.

[skip spence]

Almost 40 views and no votes?

C'mon, it's easy and only takes seconds of your life!

Just like this:

++Frodo.

Never cared for how the Gaffer always tells his son how useless he is. Frodo, although a bit boring perhaps, did after all save everyone by destroying the ring.

See, now it's 1-0 to Frodo. First to 5 votes advances to the next round.

[Nerwen]

Well, just to be contrary–

++The Gaffer.

Someone who manages to get quoted so much when he was hardly in the story deserves a vote.

Besides, technically speaking Frodo didn't destroy the Ring.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, for me this is a hard choice. But I will go for

++Frodo

First, his posts seem fishy. Second, his reaction to my suspicion proved... eh, sorry, wrong thread.

I like Gaffer for lots of things, but I also like Frodo and maybe it is just a question of current mood: I feel right now like being closer to Frodo than to Gaffer. Frodo is... classic, we all know much about his character, so maybe this is it. And I like his character.

[Aganzir]

++Frodo

I like to compare him to Siddharta Gautama; having lived a happy youth, he went through a lot of suffering to achieve wisdom.
In the beginning he was a simple, ordinary hobbit - just like the Gaffer - but on returning home he had learnt forgiveness, mercy, and peace. When I was little, I found him a bit boring, not a proper hero, when he refused to bear weapons in the end, but now that's one of the most important things why I like him.

Frodo-3
Gaffer-1

edit: xed with Legate

[Nerwen]

Oh, I really like Frodo better too, but I didn't want the contest to be too one-way.

Well, for me this is a hard choice. But I will go for

++Frodo

First, his posts seem fishy. Second, his reaction to my suspicion proved... eh, sorry, wrong thread.

Legate, if I could rep you for this I would. Thanks for the laugh, anyway.

[Gollum the Great]

++Frodo

I like the Gaffer, but Frodo was, how shall I put it? Self-sacrificing.

[Groin Redbeard]

I like the Gaffer, but Frodo was, how shall I put it? Self-sacrificing.
You hit the nail right on the head, Gollum. Substance wins over empty rhetoric everytime, at least in my book. The Gaffer, as good as he is, has never shown the same type of courage that Frodo has already showed us; besides, I have suspicions that the Gaffer is actually a Flip-Flopper.:eek:

++"Mad" Baggins jr.

It looks like the Ring Bearer has won by a landslide!:D

[skip spence]

Yes, The Gaffer was quite out of his league, despite his 'taters expertise.

Moving on we have a thrilling encounter between two trusty friends, none too keen on trespassers. In the blue corner we have Farmer Maggot, a very popular figure despite beating Frodo on occation, and not in a popularity contest. In the red corner there's the imposing Beleg Strongbow, the mighty captain of Doriath. He's most famous for his big bow, but is he trying to compensate for something?

Beleg Strongbow vs. Farmer Maggot

Vote for your favourite!

[Aganzir]

++ Beleg

Every time I read about him and Túrin, I feel like drawing or painting them, just to see if I'm capable of picturing such a close bond, such a friendship. Maggot is okay (besides his wife cooks mushrooms, mmmm!), and in another situation he might have got my vote, but right now I prefer tragedy and strong emotions to nice, plain life.
Besides isn't it just adorable how Beleg returned to Túrin time and time again although in the end it resulted in his death?

[skip spence]

++ Beleg
Every time I read about him and Túrin, I feel like drawing or painting them, just to see if I'm capable of picturing such a close bond, such a friendship.

If I were a painter I wouldn't mind having a go at the scene when Turin realises what he's done, kneeling over his slain best friend in the rain and thunder with blood-stained hands and face.

Farmer Maggot is too cool for school though.

++Maggot

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Just a short note to the previous voting, if I may:

You hit the nail right on the head, Gollum. Substance wins over empty rhetoric everytime, at least in my book. The Gaffer, as good as he is, has never shown the same type of courage that Frodo has already showed us; besides, I have suspicions that the Gaffer is actually a Flip-Flopper.:eek:

Gaffer is actually a "common man" and he is a very good person. "Empty rhetoric" is no way for him, he is actually even "wiser" than Frodo, in the more "down-to-ground" way. Have you seen, for example, the Magnificent Seven? "The villagers won..." The heroes win, but that does not make any single one of those others, non-heroes, any less significant.

Similarly with Farmer Maggot, although he is the one who is far more "clever", in the sense, far more "aware" of the world around him than Gaffer. But Gaffer is a "man in his place", truly. Frodo's vocation was to destroy the Ring, Gaffer's vocation was to care of taters. Both important. Frodo was maybe more of a "moral figure", but then, Gaffer was never in the position - how could we know how he would have acted, had he been the Ringbearer? (When it comes to the moral choices - not to skills, his skills were with taters, not with the knowledge of Elven lore or sneaking past Orc guards - I would say he may have resisted the Ring for as long and carried it as far as Frodo.)

That's just to clear something about the first "duel" - and to make it clear what was not the reason for me to pick Frodo. Now, on to the second one:

++Beleg

Simply because mostly of what was already said here, and especially because I found all the complex of people around Túrin most intriguing lately (those who know my WW game "Werewolves among the Wolf-Men" know well). And, okay, I like the Elves more than Hobbits ;) :p

[Lalwendë]

++Maggot

1. Because he's a Hobbit and they win over Elves every time.

2. Because his missus knows how to cook up bacon and shrooms.

3. Because he's a farmer and so I can relate to him better.

4. Because he has a good name. :cool:

[Gollum the Great]

++The Strongbow

Friend of Friends, as Tolkien puts it. I get the shivers reading that line. This elf is one of my favourites.

[Morthoron]

Just a short note to the previous voting, if I may:

Gaffer is actually a "common man" and he is a very good person. "Empty rhetoric" is no way for him, he is actually even "wiser" than Frodo, in the more "down-to-ground" way. Have you seen, for example, the Magnificent Seven? "The villagers won..." The heroes win, but that does not make any single one of those others, non-heroes, any less significant.

Not wishing to steer this vote any further afield, but as an actual character, Gaffer is by far more interesting and deep than Frodo. Certainly, Frodo is a more important character than poor old Gamgee, but then Gaffer is much more indicative of actual Hobbits than Frodo (Bilbo and Frodo had that odd and uncharacteristic Tookish strain that was antithetical to stolid Hobbitishness).

In addition, we see the true genius of Tolkien's writing and his love of dialect and language more so in the Gaffer than in Frodo. To me, the Gaffer is more 'real', if one can say that about fictional folk, and he is a wonderful personification of old, befuddled but wise folk we all know or have met at one time or another. One can love Gaffer like one would your own cranky grandfather; Frodo, however, is a bit too whiny and melancholy (in a stilted literary sense) for my taste, and it is Gafffer's son, Samwise, bred of the same tough stock and prone to uttering the same bits of folksy wisdom, that saves the quest.

So if, indeed, your poll is asking who is the more popular, rather than most important character, my vote would certainly be Gaffer over Frodo.

The same would go for the Beleg vs Maggot question. Obviously, Beleg is an important figure and his friendship and loyalty are unquestionably great; however, he is a literary cipher without personality or depth, whereas we get a true sense of who Farmer Maggot really is. Ergo, I would choose Maggot.

[skip spence]

So if, indeed, your poll is asking who is the more popular, rather than most important character, my vote would certainly be Gaffer over Frodo.

The same would go for the Beleg vs Maggot question. Obviously, Beleg is an important figure and his friendship and loyalty are unquestionably great; however, he is a literary cipher without personality or depth, whereas we get a true sense of who Farmer Maggot really is. Ergo, I would choose Maggot.

Your motivation behind a vote matters not to the result of the poll, so if you base your choice on how pretty the actor who played him/her in the movies is or on some high-brow theory of how well the character's heroic but vain struggles symbolises the pagan eschatological view that the destruction of man and all of his creations is inevitable, the end result is the same: one vote. I'd be interested to hear your reasoning though, be it humorous, serious or just whimsical.

I take it that your choice would be Maggot, Morth, in which case the score is tied at 3-3. It's anyone's game.

[mormegil]

++Beleg

[Eönwë]

++Farmer Maggot

Mmmm... Mushrooms.;)

[the phantom]

++Beleg

What more could you ask for than someone who is kind, forgiving, wise, a great warrior, and an even better friend?

[Lalwendë]

Does Skip have to post to move the fight on then, or what?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Beleg is cooler. . .not that I dislike Maggot even though evil rumors have him picked as an Evertonian.

I think Beleg could have died in a better way though. . . I know that the whole killed by a friend is very dramatic, but in my head it would be much better if him and Maglor died side by side fighting the sons of Feanor.
I don't know why, but keep picturing such a sceen.

Anyways if I want mushrooms picked I can do it my self, if I need orcs killed then I will call on Beleg! Ergo he is of much more use to me.

++Beleg

EDIT: I forgot to check about deadlines and such

(I see that Beleg already won. . .bah I will let the post stay)

[the phantom]

Oops. I didn't realize there was a deadline. Did Beleg win?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Oops. I didn't realize there was a deadline. Did Beleg win?
5 votes and you win, so Beleg won with your vote.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Not meaning to be petty, but it
must be ++Mim , praps Gollum
was right about nassty elvsees attacking
nice small peoples. And Pippin seemed to
get along nicely with the mean nassty hobbit. :(

[mormegil]

I see no problem in continuing without Skip...what would be fun *looks at some of our Downer artists* is to get some nice brackets. Tummy, here is an idea why don't we do our own version of March Madness here on the downs?

Anyway between Mim and Pippin

++Mim

Less a vote for Mim, while he is an interesting character, but more a vote against Pippin. Is there a worse hobbit in the whole world? I doubt it, he's mundane and predictable. He nearly destroys the whole point of the fellowship multiple times. The only real accomplishment he can claim is slaying a troll but first off who hasn't slain a troll? Also, his was more on accident than an actual feat of prowress and cunning.

[Gollum the Great]

I can't pick between the two up for vote right now. But I will say that:


Also, his was more on accident than an actual feat of prowress and cunning.

I think that just charging the Olog was courageous.

[the phantom]

Tummy, here is an idea why don't we do our own version of March Madness here on the downs?
I will give that some thought. I'll write at the top of a blank page in my notebook "Middle Earth March Madness" so I remember.

[skip spence]

I see no problem in continuing without Skip...what would be fun *looks at some of our Downer artists* is to get some nice brackets.

Neither do I and yes, brackets would be nice.

The choice between Mim and Pippin is tough. No, actually it isn't. Pippin is a little brat, isn't he - dangit he's almost 30 years old but still acts as if he's on a field trip with school, goofing around and learning nothing. Mim is the last of his kind, fortunately perhaps given his treacherous ways, but you can't help feeling sorry for the old bugger, can you? And in a way the outlaws had it coming, didn't they? Bad deeds lead to more bad deeds and all...

'nuff said, ++Mim

That makes it 3-0 to the Petty Dwarf. Is an upset on the tables?

[Nerwen]

++Pippin.

At least he's honest.

[Thinlómien]

Oh I knew I shouldn't miss a thread like this... I missed the good old survivor games and this reminds me of them. Well, just for the record, I would have voted Frodo (one of the most touching characters in the books, I love his pacifism and also, he has some absolutely brilliant lines - and actually, the more I read LotR, the more I like Frodo and the less I view him as a simple character) and Beleg (that guy is just cool and besides, hey, actually, now I know - like Frodo, he's an unbelievably gentle person without being "soft" or "weak", and that's something I love) too.

Ahem, anyway, now we're talking about Mîm and Pippin... wow, this is difficult. I mean, I dislike Mîm, he's pitiful and unpleasant but you can kind of understand him really, and I just love many those characters of Tolkien's that are more than just balck-and-white. On the other hand, the more I read LotR, the more I like Pippin (although I've always preferred Merry). Pippin, just like Frodo, is a very touching character - it's is beautiful to see how he grows as a person, and also, his friendship with Bergil and Beregond, as well as his sort of loyalty to Denethor are very beautiful things. And you can't deny he can be funny, although he can be annoying too (why the heck throw the stone to the well?!? ;)). Ah, I just can't vote yet. I'll have to think about this more.

And skip - this thread is so horrible. It makes me recall so very strongly how much I love Tolkien's work that I almost started crying in the school library and nowe I really feel like skipping my next lesson and going home to read LotR...

[Aganzir]

++ Mîm

I can't possibly not vote him, having once argued for two or three hours about whether he is good or not.
I would never call him pathetic - he wasn't. What would you do if you were attacked by a bunch of outlaws who dishonoured you, demanded you to give them your home, and killed your son? I can't help wondering how calmly Mîm took it and even grew to respect and like Túrin. I know for sure that I would have done much worse.
And when Beleg came, he was just terribly jealous, which is quite understandable.

Plus I like dwarves more than hobbits, but that's a side issue. ;)

[Groin Redbeard]

Also, his was more on accident than an actual feat of prowress and cunning.

Well, at least he showed the courage to actually fight him. You will notice that this particular feat alone shows the vast change that Pippin has made since going on his adventures with Frodo. I think we can give him some credit here, after all he was still in his "tweens".

Let's see here, Pippin has always been an adorable character to me (my little brother is just like him) and although he can be foolish, he can, at times, be very resourceful. After all I credit the escape of Merry and Pippin from the Uruk-Hai chiefly to Pippin: it was he who dropped his elven brooch for the Three Hunters to find and it was he who first cut his bonds off with the edge of a sword.

Mim, has always been an exception for me. I mainly defend Dwarves with a passion but with Mim I have difficulties doing. He may have had good reasons for hating Beleg, and even Turin, but Mim I would say is an evil Dwarf (Tolkien in the beginning drafted the Dwarf race as evil so this shouldn't be a surprise). I cannot vote for someone who had dealings with the enemy and caused such pain to those in his household. Hurin was right to slay him at Nargathrond...

This was a difficult choice, but I'm going with ++Fool of a Took for his ability to learn from mistakes and to see his character transform from that of a fool to wise young Hobbit.

[mormegil]

Well, at least he showed the courage to actually fight him. You will notice that this particular feat alone shows the vast change that Pippin has made since going on his adventures with Frodo. I think we can give him some credit here, after all he was still in his "tweens".

But the whole time he was belly-aching and only wanted to be there to prove how courageous he supposedly was when in face he was a coward. He did not rush off to meet them, don't think of the movie, he waited and the only thing he did was hold up his sword and poach the kill that Aragorn was getting.


Let's see here, Pippin has always been an adorable character to me (my little brother is just like him) and although he can be foolish, he can, at times, be very resourceful. After all I credit the escape of Merry and Pippin from the Uruk-Hai chiefly to Pippin: it was he who dropped his elven brooch for the Three Hunters to find and it was he who first cut his bonds off with the edge of a sword.


What an idiot Pippin was! To drop such a gift is wholly irresponsibly and shows the lack of sense. If he only understood what great trackers both Aragorn and Legolas were he would have known that there was no need to drop such a gift. Also, think of the litter factor, it is well documented that Pippin is the first litterer in all of Middle-earth. Up until then nobody even thought of littering...you should have seen the rubbish heaps that formed in Hobbiton after word of this dead was relayed to them by Pippin...he caused an epidemic himself.

You, sir, are a dwarf hater and only voted Pippin because Mim is a dwarf.

Incidentally I believe the voting for Pippin and Mim is over and Pippin is off to the gallows but I cannot resist a good rip at the old Pippin.

[Morthoron]

++ Mim

To me. in many respects he is reminiscent of Shylock in the Merchant of Venice, a tragic figure caught up in revenge and grief. He's more of a layered character than Pippin, and the side-history (or lack thereof) of the petty-dwarves is intriguing as well. Petty-dwarves...rather redundant.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Pippin

He makes me laugh (something I can use after the last few months), and I think he of all the LotR characters demonstrates the most accessible "humanity." He makes mistakes, he can be foolish and short-sighted, yet he can also summon courage even when his knees are quaking, and dignity. He is not servile, yet he can be humble. He needs to grow up a bit, but then, don't we all in one way or another? :)

[mormegil]

Next round...

Okay let me ask you this, is Sauron really a character. I mean what has he done lately?

The kind of character I like knows where to put his trust and power and in a ring...I mean it makes no sense. I can only imagine the thought process "Hmmmm I am evil and want total world domination, what to do? What to do? *snaps fingers* I know I'll make a ring. I'll pour all my power and malice on it..."

A ring!?!? Why not a mask or a sword or maybe even a sneaker. How easy are rings to lose.

++Tuor

Any relative of Turin is a friend of mine.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

++Sauron.

He's just misunderstood.

[Gollum the Great]

++Sauron

He's cooler. He can also subvert whole nations to his will.

[skip spence]

Oh, it's all over. Good win for Mim that, I didn't see that one coming.

++Pippin
He makes me laugh (something I can use after the last few months), and I think he of all the LotR characters demonstrates the most accessible "humanity." He makes mistakes, he can be foolish and short-sighted, yet he can also summon courage even when his knees are quaking, and dignity. He is not servile, yet he can be humble. He needs to grow up a bit, but then, don't we all in one way or another?

Not much love for Pippin on this board it seems and I'm glad someone is on his side. Alas, your were just a little too late as Morthoron drove the last nail into his coffin. First to five votes wins.

I've also an announcement to make. Morgoth has been sent into the void and can no longer participate in the tournament. He will be replaced by Maedhros, eldest son of Fëanor.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Tuor

Since Sauron made the short-sighted mistake of linking his power and nearly all his existence into a small thing that could be taken from him and destroyed, while Tuor may have been the only mortal to be granted the Elven kind of immortality. Plenty of people have made ill-fated "doomsday weapons" (though perhaps Sauron has the distinction of being the first), while Tuor did what no one else has, before or since. As far as we know. :)

[mormegil]

Skip, you may want to consider upping the vote total or making a time limit as this thread gains in popularity. I'm not sure you knew what you started. Some of us, me and others, have a lot of fun here and this will continue to grow. My recommendation is have at least 10 votes or 1 full 24 hour period.

[the phantom]

Tuor and Sauron are both heavy hitters. I'm sad to see them matched up in the first round. Oh well- a decision must be made.

Tuor was a good person, and certainly achieved stature through his wisdom and might. But let's be honest here... Sauron destroyed the most powerful civilization man ever built (Numenor).

And if that wasn't enough, then he brought about the death of Gil Galad, the death of Elendil, coordinated the fall of the kingdom of Arnor, and very nearly took over the world!

The only reason why Sauron didn't take over all of Middle Earth was divine intervention. Remember folks, Frodo failed to destroy the Ring. Sauron won. But then Eru stuck his hand in and whoops- Gollum trips into the lava. And Gandalf, the greatest mover against Sauron, was dead and gone, but Eru sent him back with a power boost.

In other words, God himself had to step in and give the good guys a helping hand to beat Sauron. That's pretty darn dominating.

And lastly, without Sauron there would be no Tol-In-Gaurhoth, i.e. NO WEREWOLF GAMES on the Downs!! I think that was his greatest act.

++Sauron

[skip spence]

Glad you're enjoying the thread, I thought it would fall flat on its face there for a while. How about this, I set a deadline, let's say 12.00 AM board-time, and give each voting-session 24 hours to conclude. If none of the characters has received 5 votes by then, the voting will be allowed to continue until one of them does. If a characters or both receive 5 votes or more before that deadline, voting will be allowed to continue until the deadline passes. How's that?

If you're okay with this arrangement the deadline of the Sauron-Tuor voting will be tomorrow at 12.00 AM board-time (I dunno which time-zone that is).

[Thinlómien]

++Sauron

He's a werewolf!

I mean... it's serious this time. :D

But anyway, Tuor must be one of the most boring heroes in Tolkien's work. Really, what is there in him? However mighty warrior he was, he strikes me as a loser with very little personality or anything interesting. Okay, he had a special task and was the special favourite of Ulmo, my favourite Vala, but I'm afraid that's not enough to make him interesting in any way. He just lacks distinctive personality, that's the problem.

Sauron, on the other hand.... he's twisted. He's rather boring maybe in LotR as he's reduced to being merely "the enemy", but in the Silmarillion and the UT he's gory and very fascinating... All that cunning, all those beautiful lies, the immense charisma, the extreme cruelty (Gorlim and Eilinel - that's really the most horror stuff Tolkien ever wrote) and of course, he was the lord of werewolves :Merisu: and also, a mighty singer. You've got to admit he was pretty darn cool before he became very boringly just "the Dark Lord". (Also, I love the name "the Necromancer", more so actually in the Finnish translation. It's been translated with the word that corresponds to "witch" and using it of men is totally appropriate, but rather rare. It always intrigued me. Also, Dol Gûldur is just really creepy however little we know about it...)

edit: xed with tp and skip - skippie, that arrangement sounds good :)

[Aganzir]

Skippie, when you scroll down the page to see the Downs clock, you also see which timezone you're in (GMT +1 I believe, since we are GMT +2).

++ Tuor

He's one of my favourite characters; his story has always had a certain appeal to me. I like him for his life as an outlaw and his wanderings, and the sea aspect is also great - I just love Nevrast. Besides, Idril & Tuor's story is definitely my favourite of the great love stories in Middle-earth.
Sauron is, after all, quite an... empty character, who lacked a will of his own and was lured by Morgoth. I don't know, it's just a bit hard to take a baddie seriously when he's but a puppet to his master of old.

edit: xed with Loomy

[Morthoron]

Tuor? Bah! He led a charmed life, got the elf girl and lived happily ever after with little or no energy expended.

I will have to go with ++Sauron, but only up to the point where he escaped the wreck of Numenor. After that, he is a faceless evil and rather boring.

[skip spence]

I will also vote.

While Lommy (yes, that Gorlim and Eilinel episode was delightfully diabolical) and the Phantom (I agree, on a level playing-field Sauron would have won but Eru messed things up for him real good) have come up with great arguments in favour of Sauron, I still have to side with Tuor. He's not boring to me at all and I feel I get into his head pretty well reading the long prose-tale. I, like Aganzir, enjoy his wanderings as an outlaw in the wild, his appreciation of the beauty of Middle Earth, particularly the sea, and his strong desire for freedom. It's a real shame JRRT never got around to finish the Tuor-tale.

Unlike other good characters such as Aragorn and Faramir, Tuor doesn't do "the right thing" as a natural necessity either; his basic character is quite like his cousin Turin I think, but unlike him he learns from mistakes and accepts good advice, making him grow.

++Tuor

That arrangement sounds good

So be it then.

[mormegil]

Sauron is now 5 and Tuor 4

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Very astute observation by Morthothon

++ Mim

To me. in many respects he is reminiscent of Shylock in the Merchant of Venice, a tragic figure caught up in revenge and grief. He's more of a layered character than Pippin,

As for this match, guess who?
+ + Tuor

Hey, the guy had a tough childhood and adolescence, but kept
his cool way better then his hothead cousin.

Oh, and Skip Spence, how could that great conversationalist and all around
bon vivant Smaug be left out of the contest?

[skip spence]

Just a heads-up that the voting deadline (yes, there is a deadline now, check the op for more info) will pass in a little more than 2 hours at 12.00 AM board-time. Currently the standing is Sauron 5 Tuor 5. With no further votes Sauron will progress however as he was the first to reach 5. There's still a chance for you to change that though!

Oh, and Skip Spence, how could that great conversationalist and all around
bon vivant Smaug be left out of the contest?

There are so many interesting characters in Tolkien's works and some are going to be left out unless you add a round. The next step for an expansion would be 64 participants however and I think that's too many. As it is Glaurung is in but Smaug isn't. I have been known to give in to popular demand though and I do take bribes. ;)

[skip spence]

That's it, Tuor is eliminated. It was close but Sauron will tell him that it matters not whether it's by inches or a mile, winning is winning.

Moving on to Match 5 of round 1 we have Bilbo "Mad" Baggins, The Hobbit himself, versus Fëanor's eldest son Maedhros, torn between his noble intentions and the Oath he took.

Bilbo Baggins vs. Maedhros

Voting will be allowed until 12.00 Am tomorrow board time.

[Thinlómien]

There is no question here!

++Maedhros

He might be my favourite Tolkien character ever. Like I said already, I tend to like Tolkien's less black-and-white characters. I don't particularily like baddies since they tend to be too evil, heroes are often too pure and perfect for me, morally ambiguous "grey" characters often strike me as spineless or annoying, but heroes with faults are the best. You can admire them and be intrigued by them, but you can also relate with them and also, they don't annoy you with their paper-thin or edgeless character. And for me, indeed, Maedhros is one of those "faulty heroes".

He has many great qualities. He has the attractive Noldorin temperament and pride and "inner fire", but he's not a foolish jerk like many of his kinsmen (*coughhisfathercough*). He can admit his mistakes and give way to others - he's surely the best negotiator of the seven brothers (Maglor would stand a chance with all his empathy, but I don't think he has the political cunning of his elder brother). Maedhros is a natural leader and also great warrior - besides, he lost his hand and leanred to fight again, isn't that just awesome? I love the big contradiction is character and his inner fight - the desire for the Silmaril, the pride, the stubbornness, the temperament and the deep sense of duty that drive him to the last desperate attempt, although he is wise, noble and gentle enough to know he's doing wrong.

Lastly, Maedhros features in two of the coolest scenes in whole Sil. I always, always, get a chill run down my spine of the scene of burning the ships in Losgar and Maedhros's disapproval of it (this tells also of his great character, I think). Also, Maedhros's and Fingon's deep friendship and Fingon's valiant and desperate mission to save his friend always touched me too.

Oh, this thread is really horrible. It makes me regress to a fan girl level. :D (Speaking of which, I may tell you a secret here... I never wrote any "heroine falls in love with Tolkien's hero X" fan fics, but if I had, I have no doubt "hero X" would have been Maedhros... :eek: ;))

And lastly, I want to say that I really have nothing against Bilbo - on the contrary. He's an adorable fellow and I like him very much. Maedhros just happens to be my special favourite...

[mormegil]

Ya old Bobo Baggins is about as worthless a character as they come. Really what has he done for me lately? No I can't stand his smug little smile. He thinks he's so big and cool for being so old but he really didn't do it on his own now did he. Okay and what kind of dufus can posses the ultimate ring of power for so long and not even realize it? The only other person was Gollum and he's just a nit-wit.

++Maedhros
Plus Maedhros is just plain awesome, the only direct relation to Feanor I like, but I hate his dad, okay maglor isn't bad either.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Given this thread has a "popularity" theme this
match is a tough call. Even Maedhros is in a sense
a forerunner of Thief Baggins in trying to "steal" two silmarils
since the sons of Feanor had forfeited a legitimate call on
them.(Yes, everyone tries to steal from poor Smaug, Gollum,
and Sauron). :(

But Maedros' flaws are more deep rooted then Frodo's Uncle
and Bilbo (other then his shocking animus towards
noble dragons) has more of an ability to not just want to be
generous and show magnanimity but to actually do so, so

+ + Bilbo, a.k.a. Thief Baggins

[Gollum the Great]

You seem to have unusual views of certain characters, morm. If you don't mind me saying so.
But I can't pick between these two. I like Bilbo, but considering that Maedhros "is just plain awesome" and another guy I like, I can't choose. I like everyone in Middle-Earth.

[Morthoron]

++Bilbo by default. I'm not a big fan of the Hobbitish race, but Bilbo is, after all, Bilbo (and confusticate, flummoxed and bebother are three of my favorite words).

Sorry Lommie, but the sons of Feanor are all gutless cowards in my book. And I'm particularly disappointed in Maedhros and Maglor, who at least showed common sense and tact at times (unlike their more haughty and contemptible brothers, like Celegorm and Caranthir). Unless one is making the claim that one is utterly unable to overcome fate, and incapable of breaking a vow, then Maedhros could have denied his father and the vow at the very end, not committed blatant murder, and in a small way atoned for the sins of his family (which would have stood him in better stead when being judged by Mandos).

[Thinlómien]

Unless one is making the claim that one is utterly unable to overcome fate, and incapable of breaking a vow, then Maedhros could have denied his father and the vow at the very end, not committed blatant murder, and in a small way atoned for the sins of his family (which would have stood him in better stead when being judged by Mandos).Ah, I guess that's why I like him so much. Because he "failed", in the end. So no perfect heroism there...

[mormegil]

++Bilbo by default. I'm not a big fan of the Hobbitish race, but Bilbo is, after all, Bilbo (and confusticate, flummoxed and bebother are three of my favorite words).

Sorry Lommie, but the sons of Feanor are all gutless cowards in my book. And I'm particularly disappointed in Maedhros and Maglor, who at least showed common sense and tact at times (unlike their more haughty and contemptible brothers, like Celegorm and Caranthir). Unless one is making the claim that one is utterly unable to overcome fate, and incapable of breaking a vow, then Maedhros could have denied his father and the vow at the very end, not committed blatant murder, and in a small way atoned for the sins of his family (which would have stood him in better stead when being judged by Mandos).

And yet you vote Sauron???

[the phantom]

Maedhros was a good chap ensnared by a terrible doom.

He showed his character when he did not want to burn the ships, and again when he attempted to make peace with various other Lords. In addition, after King Fingolfin kicked the bucket, though the "High Kingship" passed to Fingon, Maedhros was the true top dog after that.

It was he that organized the resistance to Morgoth, and it was the Union of Maedhros, not Fingon, who forced Morgoth to empty Angband.

In the end he was a victim of a rash decision he had made as a youth- making his oath, and naming Eru in it.

In his mind, he simply had to attempt to gain the Silmarils if they were not yielded to him, for he had sworn upon God that he would do so. Without that one mistake, the oath, the other bad things would not have happened.

So, can we truly wipe out all of his good deeds because of one youthful mistake? Especially since it was the Valar who had bungled the whole Melkor-running-free situation which led to everything else?

++Maedhros

[Morthoron]

And yet you vote Sauron???

Yes. Your point is what? We are talking popularity, and why you like or dislike the characters. Sauron is a better villain than Maedhros is a hero. *shrugs*

To me, Maedhros maintaining his cursed vow through several separate slaughters of his kindred is not excusable, even if he supposedly was unable to break his vow and blindly went on killing, unable to stop himself (if he indeed could not stop because of the vow, then he was a mere puppet and therefore worthless). He did not ever say enough is enough, never prevented forcibly the acts of his brothers, and killed himself rather than surrender the Silmaril. Like Judas, his committing suicide rather than repenting is a mortal sin (even though I gave up being Catholic decades ago).

Several great and heroic characters were able to refuse the One Ring (particularly Galadriel to whom it was offered freely, or Faramir), or give it up on their own accord (Bilbo and Sam), and the One Ring had a far more evilly coercive and 'addictive' effect than the Silmarils (which are. of course, supposedly 'holy gems').

[mormegil]

Yes. Your point is what?


I didn't know I had one :D

[Nogrod]

In his mind, he simply had to attempt to gain the Silmarils if they were not yielded to him, for he had sworn upon God that he would do so. Without that one mistake, the oath, the other bad things would not have happened.Which just brings a nice added piece of this Tolkienish fatalistic universe and its romantic heroes... :rolleyes:

I should be the literal guy and thence vote for Bilbo but even if I really like him as a character - and my personal liking for how a life should be lead and what is important are much closer to Bilbo than Maedhros - I must confess there is certain romantic grandeur (with the bravery, shortcomings, anguish and all that) in Maedhros that just catch the imagination. And the hopeless and terrible quest for the Silmarils in the end just rise him above many. (only the end-solution I found a bit dull; burning jewel and oath undone & suicide... blah how typical... :))

But sure for me it will be...

++ Maedhros

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

My personal choice would be

++Bilbo

Say what, isn't it enough for you that I vote for a Hobbit rather than for an Elf... but really, well, for me, Maedhros, of all Fëanor's sons, was one of the least interesting. I have nothing against his character, quite the contrary, but from the point of being literally interesting for me, he loses to Mr. B. a long way. Bilbo Baggins - as long as he is on the scene, in particular during the whole Hobbit and later at the beginning of LotR, still (when he's becoming a bit old and sleepy it isn't as interesting anymore ;) ), is just a great character. In general, I tend to dislike main heroes just because they are main heroes (which is usually connected with being either perfect or in a way silly, like Harry Potter), but Bilbo (and Frodo, although he is closer to the edge with this) is something different. And the main thing is the "atmosphere" around him, although it may be the atmosphere of whole The Hobbit, but it is this sort-of-fairy-tale, but different, not THAT fairy-tale, it is more mundane more down-to-earth, but also Dragons and Dwarves and autumn sun and Men and Goblins rather than the High Power Of Noldor Long Sword Of Heavenly Flame +15 Hail Ye To The Legendary Legends Of Legendariest Legendary Kings Of Old. You can say it also this way: I would have liked far more (and btw also find it far likely) to meet Bilbo Baggins in a field outside the city near my house than to meet Maedhros there.
Maedhros makes me think of the music of Blind Guardian, which, despite it being a good music, is something that lacks... depth (?) for me (in that case, Bilbo Baggins is Pink Floyd ;) ). It is the strong words of Sorrow, Pride, Loss and Bravery, which are strong when being shouted, but if you go away from the shouting, they are pronounced with no substance. Maedhros has, unfortunately for him, a big chance to become a character in an animated TV series, colorful, in the "modern" way portrayed also as a hero with his own flaws, but even these flaws will be overaccented and he will be nothing more than these four or five character traits which make everything that he is. Now I am exaggerating it, of course, but intentionally: he can be summed into a few words for me, and I have to work hard to see a real character behind him.

[Nerwen]

It's interesting to see different people's takes on the characters... I abstained from voting this round because I like both contestants equally– in completely different ways.

Now, looking at the previous round, I see that four out of the five who voted for Sauron are Tol-in-Gaurhoth-ites.

skip, this is a clear conflict of interest!

[Lalwendë]

++ Bilbo.

Duh.

Of course I'm going to vote Bilbo, being his Number One Fan. What's not to like? He's a Hobbit and therefore cooler than any Elf; he's almost the embodiment of Tolkien himself; he's witty; he's so English it hurts; and he's the one who found that ring.

[Thinlómien]

Now I am exaggerating it, of course, but intentionally: he can be summed into a few words for me, and I have to work hard to see a real character behind him.Your sight is just limited... :p;)

Like Judas, his committing suicide rather than repenting is a mortal sin (even though I gave up being Catholic decades ago).Oh but you must understand that's not an argument that will convince everybody - for example I think that Judas is very fascinating as a character... ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Your sight is just limited... :p;)

Gah. I could say the same about your view of Tuor :p

[Groin Redbeard]

I have got to run to class here in a moment so I'll make it short and sweet.

Bilbo- a nobody who is found by destiny to go on a great journey (the greatest journey in my mind) and unintentionally finds the greatest evil in the world and keeps it from being found by the enemy. He is the forerunner of the great Ring bearer. Over all a delightful character.:D

Maedhros- an alright character, he was still foolish to follow his fathers example. Overall, not much a character, and is grossely overated because he lost his poor little hand.

++Bilbo

[Aganzir]

++ Maedhros

Shouldn't all you lefties vote for him? ;)

My reasons for liking him are pretty much mentioned already (nothing beats the pride of the sons of Fëanor), although he's nothing like one of my favourite characters. Mostly it's just that Bilbo annoys me, in a way. Well yes he's an alright old chap but I don't like his.. greed. Laziness. Ignorance. Selfishness. All those traits were visible in the Bilbo of The Hobbit, and I possess all of them to some extent, myself, so maybe I shouldn't complain about them.
I don't even really know why, I just prefer Maedhros.

[Aganzir]

Oh and I also want to add that while Frodo grew up during his journey, Bilbo didn't. At all. Which annoys me.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh and I also want to add that while Frodo grew up during his journey, Bilbo didn't. At all. Which annoys me.

Speaking of that, that is perhaps something I like on him, to a certain extent... (Although of course, he did grow up at least in some way... or rather... he didn't grow up, he merely found out some traits of his he already had, only did not come into a situation where they would show, that is it. So indeed, he didn't seem to grow up.)

[mormegil]

and he's the one who found that ring.

Not truly, it was Deagol...;)

[skip spence]

The interesting thing about the Oath is what would have happened if someone broke it. Fëanor and his sons were said to have named the One and calling everlasting darkness upon them if they didn't keep it. Is that just saying that they really really promised, honest to God! or was there something more to it? The former, I think. I've a feeling Eru wouldn't strike them down in anger if they broke the Oath, nor would Manwe call everlasting darkness over them, although they named him as witness. No, they would applaud it.

It's probably more the case of them not wanting to break a promise and not do what they said they would. Not break their word, no matter what. Even though Meadhros knew that breaking the Oath would be the good thing to do, probably the only possible path towards healing and salvation, he still chose to stay true to his word and follow the darker path, however grim and evil end it led to.

Bilbo? I like him alright. It's just hard to compete with the poetic grandeur of Maedhros.

++Maedhros

[Nogrod]

Bilbo- a nobody who is found by destiny to go on a great journey (the greatest journey in my mind) and unintentionally finds the greatest evil in the world and keeps it from being found by the enemy.Isn't this just a banal fantasy of the nerds? "One day I will also rule the world with my might even if nobody pays attention to me in this RL of mine"? :rolleyes: :D

[Groin Redbeard]

My reasons for liking him are pretty much mentioned already (nothing beats the pride of the sons of Fëanor)...Wouldn't this be a bad thing? There is an old (and I do mean oold) saying in my country: "Pride has hurt, starved, and killed than all the other injustices in the world combined." This remark certainly fits Feanor and his sons, their petty pride causing the death of many a good man, elf, and dwarf alike.

[skip spence]

The deadline has passed and Maedhros won it by six votes to five. We say bye bye Bilbo, close but no cigar!


The next encounter promises to be as exiting as the previous one. The leader of the Dwarven expedition to the Lonely Mountain versus the father of dragons:

Glaurung vs. Thorin Oakenshield

[mormegil]

Glaurung's breath stinks really bad...just trust me.

++Thorin

[Lalwendë]

++Glaurung

He's a Dragon. No contest.

Dragons are The Coolest Thing Ever.

Shame he was up against Thorin who is also very, very cool and bad-tempered and bearded and things that I usually like....but Dragons win.

Not truly, it was Deagol...;)

But do you really think if Gollum had kept it that it would ever have been 'dealt with'? That's what was important to me ;)


Isn't this just a banal fantasy of the nerds? "One day I will also rule the world with my might even if nobody pays attention to me in this RL of mine"?

:eek:

[Groin Redbeard]

This dwarf is described as being very haughty, stern, and officious. He has a talent for singing and can play the harp. He wears a gold chain and has a very long beard. He refers to his homes in the Blue Mountains as "poor lodgings in exile." Even though he is quite old (even for a Dwarf) by the time of The Hobbit, he is very capable and a cunning warrior, if not a particularly inspiring or clever leader. I love the way he leads his men with Gandalf, and then without the wizards help, to reclaim their lost kingdom of Erebor (a moon-shot you might say). Although Thorin's character is disappointing at times, I still think that he was overall right in his assumptions. Not really a great leader, but he was a great Dwarf nonetheless.

++Thorin

[Gollum the Great]

Well I like Thorin a lot. He rocks. I like Glaurung a lot. He rocks I like dwarves a lot. They rock. I like dragons a lot. They rock.

*conflict of preferences in my head*

++Glaurung

[Morthoron]

I'm not much a fan of Dwarves, and Thorin and the Dwarves were pretty much dead wood on the journey from the Shire to Erebor.

But talking malevolent dragons with hypnotic sight and limitless sarcasm? And the cowardly way Turin stabbed him in the belly? Pffft! Some hero! No contest here....

++Glaurung

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Two generally not llikeble characters, but Thorin
does show a generaly courteous character (generally!)
and was brave and died well, whereas Glaurung has
zero positive qualities, unlike Smaug :cool:
so ++ Thorin Oakenshield

[Tuor in Gondolin]

A thought, if later someone (less lazy then me)
runs an "interesting and not totally unlikeable
bad guy" contest it could be interesting.
For example, in TH the three stone trolls, the old
fat spider, and The Master. And earlier ME Mim redux, Eol
and Son, Feanor?, Ar-Pharazon, Curufin, etc.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

This is not quite an easy question for me. I do not like these two in particularly that much, neither of them, to be sure rightaway. Though, after some thinking: Thorin has lots of positive (and negative, but interesting) character traits, while Glaurung has of course nice persuading personality and everything... but well, let's face it: he is a worm. He is not a dragon. I would have voted Smaug immediately. I would have voted Glaurung too, I think, had he had wings. But he is a worm! Come on, people. Crawling on the ground? How inappropriate for the Father of Dragons! Such a disgrace! A big, fat dust-eating worm? Down with him!

++Thorin

[Aganzir]

Wouldn't this be a bad thing? There is an old (and I do mean oold) saying in my country: "Pride has hurt, starved, and killed than all the other injustices in the world combined." This remark certainly fits Feanor and his sons, their petty pride causing the death of many a good man, elf, and dwarf alike.
No, to me pride has always been the golden mean between conceit and humility. Fëanor and his sons took it maybe a bit too far, but it's that unwillingness to repent which makes them so irresistible (especially Curufin, but I like Maglor, too).
And this is not to say I should like all sorts of pride - I agree there are kinds that are quite dangerous by themselves.

++ Thorin

I find dragons annoying and boring. Reading too much fantasy should maybe be blamed for that, although I admit Tolkien's dragons have a bit more edge than average to them. However, when it's between a dwarf and a dragon, the dwarf will get my vote.

Besides I like Thorin. He's one of those characters who are easy to sympathize with although they are not flawless. Every time I've read The Hobbit I've sided with him when he threw Bilbo out. It was Thorin who had been offended so Bilbo should have no reason to complain, rather be just happy it didn't end up worse.

edit: xed with Tuor (hey Curufin's not a bad guy! :p) and Legz (you are such a racist! :p)

[Nogrod]

++Glaurung
He's a Dragon. No contest.
Dragons are The Coolest Thing Ever.
Shame he was up against Thorin who is also very, very cool and bad-tempered and bearded and things that I usually like....but Dragons win.My words exactly.

It was a funny thing I heard from the radio last week (okay, I downloaded it from the Fora tv). There was a catholic professor who discussed his faith and he made a remark going something like this (I'm not going to try and find the exact quote as the program lasts something like 1½ hours): the catholic-based literature is interesting as it has all the hues and colours of the world with the contradictions and "unbelievables" and everything's a mess. But with the protestant literature only the baddies are interesting as the goodies are just plain bores.

Even if I am a non-believer, I have been raised in a protestant society and not even Tolkien's catholicism and his spirit as a writer can move my head from voting

++ Glaurung

Goodies are most of the time uninteresting. Thorin less so as there are many traits in him that make him stand out from the traditional goodie-gallery (hurray catholicism? :)). Sadly just not enough to be an opponent to Glaurung...


How are you deciding on these match-ups Skip? I would have loved to see both of these in the next round! Fex. Sauron of the LotR is beaten by Thorin with no effort. Okay, Sauron of the Silmarillion is more of a challenge as there he has something like a personality... how did the prof. lose the grasp of such a magnificient character in the LotR?

Maybe I'll open a thread for this last question as it really started bothering me right now as I thought of it...

[the phantom]

Glaurung took over Nargothrond. Thorin's done nothing so astounding.

And because of the important part he played in the tale that may be my favorite of all (The Children of Hurin), I must vote-

++Glaurung

[skip spence]

How are you deciding on these match-ups Skip?

First I chose 84 characters from JRRT's books, more or less arbitrarily. Then I E-mailed a poll and a questionnaire to 764 randomly selected Tolkien-fans, asking for their input on questions regarding the complexity, importance and charm of the characters in the list. Using the information gathered I came up with a list of 32 characters, 8 of which were seeded in order to avoid having the top names come up against each other in the early rounds. More or less like that. More less than more maybe.

Back to the subject. I never cared much for Thorin to be honest. When I first read the Hobbit he really infuriated me with his pompous, greedy and stubborn ways. Now I've warmed up to him in partly, but hey, Glaurung is such a badass. I think his bane, the sneaky and spineless Turin, said it best:

His power is rather in the evil spirit that dwells within him than in the might of his body, great though that be

Smaug liked to have crispy dwarves for supper. I bet his mighty ancestor is no different and Thorin is a just a pre-dinner snack for the great wurm:

++Glaurung (the score is 6-5 to the dragon at present)

(Admittedly he did get a mouthful at the Nirnaeth though)

Come on, people. Crawling on the ground? How inappropriate for the Father of Dragons! Such a disgrace! A big, fat dust-eating worm? Down with him! Hey now, what did he need to fly for? Flying is for sissies really. Like starlings, butterflies and sparrows.

[Nerwen]

First I chose 84 characters from JRRT's books, more or less arbitrarily. Then I E-mailed a poll and a questionnaire to 764 randomly selected Tolkien-fans, asking for their input on questions regarding the complexity, importance and charm of the characters in the list. Using the information gathered I came up with a list of 32 characters, 8 of which were seeded in order to avoid having the top names come up against each other in the early rounds.

You're kidding, right? Right?

[skip spence]

You're kidding, right? Right?

Like I said, I did it more or less like that. Much more less than more, admittedly. ;)

[skip spence]

Glaurung has defeated Thorin by six votes to five.


Match 7 of Round 1:
Beren is said to be the greatest Man ever to walk Middle Earth and he's got the hottest missus in history too. But is that enough against Boromir, who despite falling for the temptation of the ring is a celebrated member of the fellowship?

Boromir vs. Beren

[mormegil]

++Beren

If I ever have a son I wish to name him Beren. Plus I'm mad at Boromir88 :p

[Gollum the Great]

++Boromir

My fave. from LOTR. No Question.

[Morthoron]

++ Beren

He had a much better haircut. And a dog. Oh, and a pirate's hook. Very cool.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

++Boromir

[Groin Redbeard]

This is an easy choice, but a painful one. I really like Boromir and his noble pride for Gondor, and I am convinced that he would have gone on to do great things if he would have survived protecting the hobbits.

Well, what the heck, I started out thinking of voting for Beren, but I'm really not that attracted to him as I am Boromir. Although they are both noble men, I would have to vote for...

++Boromir

[Aganzir]

++ BOROMIR

Love love love!
Beren is boring. Great lovestories are boring. Heroes are boring.

Boromir is one of the characters who are not ultimately perfect. He didn't believe Gandalf and others right away when they claimed the Ring could not be used for anything good but questioned their judgement, which was actually quite a sensible thing to do - why should you believe something a random wizard says when you don't see any sense in it? A bit like Greenie and phantom in WW.

Boromir is sweet. He's proud. He's funny. He's human. He's grumpy. He's honest - he has the guts to admit he has been wrong, which is a quality too few possess.

The bad thing with having a certain most favouritest character ever is, I've talked about his superiority so much that I forget to mention about half the reasons why I like him as to me they are so self-evident nowadays.

[Lalwendë]

Both quite complex men, it's difficult to say who is more interesting, but with the insights to Boromir's mind and his turmoil that Tolkien gives us, he wins it by a whisker I'd say. I love his chunnerings all the way down the Anduin as he fights to allow himself to be led by Aragorn. His death scene is ace (and who hasn't tried to draw a picture of it, eh? ;)). And he wasn't led astray by some strumpet in the woods, either....just by an um...magic ring..... ;)

++Boromir

[Aganzir]

His death scene is ace (and who hasn't tried to draw a picture of it, eh? ;))
Me. :p

At least I think I haven't.

It's a scene I'm cherishing only inside my mind till the day comes that I am a terrific artist. :smokin:

Let's see if I shall ever draw it.

[Lalwendë]

Me. :p

At least I think I haven't.


Really? I thought everyone had had a go at that scene? I bet you've done a doodle of the White Tree though, eh? :p

One day I'll find my sketch of Boromir stuck full of arrows and being cradled by Aragorn and scan it and post it. I was only about 13 when I drew it though so it has what an Art critic might charitably term 'naive charm' :D

[Aganzir]

Really? I thought everyone had had a go at that scene? I bet you've done a doodle of the White Tree though, eh? :p
Nope, and that's for certain. Drawing trees is not for me. :D

I used to draw a lot Tolkien things when I had just read Lotr (ie when I was 11-13). After that the Tolkien-related stuff I drew was mostly just about our RPG.

I'm planning to start drawing/painting Middle-earth pictures again, though. It's been way too long.

[Lalwendë]

Actually, wasn't there a thread on this topic, about things people have drawn from Tolkien's work? I seem to remember SpM posted up some of his childhood drawings? I might have to find that one, it was great....

[Nogrod]

A hard choice indeed.

But to go against all odds I'm voting

++ Boromir

for purely personal reasons which are not that Sean Bean is "soo charismatic in the movie" or that Beren is the less known of them.

To me Boromir has a special place in my mind that goes to my history of reading in general. I mean, first when I read the LotR like 10 years old or something I just thought: "Yeah, a great hero but so bad". But slowly I started thinking that there was something in that verdict that was not right. That even if the narrator of the story was painting him as a person who was weak (had not the guts to deny the temptations of the evil promises for glory) and was lured by the ring into madness because of his pride, I was starting to look at it from a different angle.

So the narrator was not right! Looking at his history and motivations showed he was the most sensible person around when the fellowship broke. All those omens and fatalisms - and the thought of risking everything with a the weakest card was the madness, not Boromir.

He was right then... only that the author had decided to make the world where he lived different in a way that because of Tolkien's ideals the impossible became possible... But that really opened my eyes with literature. The authors pull the strings in more ways we readers would like to concentrate on.

And therefore my vote for Boromir, the one who's destiny got me thinking about the status of the author when I was a teenager.

[Nerwen]

++Beren

Because I happen to like him better... though I'm quite pleased to see that interesting character Boromir has so many votes. The poor man gets an awfully bad press in some quarters.

[skip spence]

I'm with Nogrod here, Boromir was right from his perspective to question the Wizards and Elves when they told him to keep faith in a fool's hope rather then to trust their own strenght.

Beren was selfish and irresponsible for dragging Felagund and some of his best men to their gruesome death in Sauron's dungeons, and for taking Luthien with him to Angband, from where she wasn't likely to ever return. If you gonna do something stupid like going after a Silmaril to show your future father-in-law you're a big man, then do it yourself, without risking innocent peoples' lives. Besides, I'm more of a cat person.

++Boromir

[mormegil]

Insanity I tell you! Somebody as wretched and as obring as Boromir is going to beat somebody as noble and brave as Beren. Boromir is a coward, that's right, he picks on hobbits when nobody is around and whines about how poor Gondor cannot stand up to the might of Mordor...ohhhhh poor us he says we cannot do what's right we need to ring...help us we are weak...boo-hoo.

Beren never once complained he was awesome.

[Thinlómien]

++Boromir

Beren's too "perfect" and personality-lacking, and like skip has nicely elaborated, even stupid. (Besides he copies Maedhros's style by getting his hand cut off... Grr... :mad:;))

Boromir, on the other hand, is one of my favourites. I love his faults. It's so refreshing to have one not-so-perfect hero in the Fellowship. Agan has already nominated most of his good qualities, so I won't babble about that, but I will just add that his death is one of the most beautiful in Tolkien's work.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

It's been already told here, most of the things which were said about Boromir I can second. The "cool" things about Beren were his change into a wolf (but that was a disguise and a device of Lúthien, in a way) and the Ring of Barahir. I don't want to sound nasty now, don't take me wrong, but the best word for me to describe his role in the story, he was a loser. Okay, maybe when reading HoME, the thing about slaying the Orcs who took the ring... and also, he talking to Gorlim... but hey, that's rather about Gorlim, Beren's father, and others than about Beren himself... hm... All in all,

++Boromir

To add to what's been told here: He is interesting; and in a certain way, he almost (and now take it with big reservations, okay?) reaches the level of Saruman. Okay, really, with big reservations: but by considering all the various character traits in him, he is kind of "on the road to the same sector", so to say.

[skip spence]

Insanity I tell you! Somebody as wretched and as obring as Boromir is going to beat somebody as noble and brave as Beren. Boromir is a coward, that's right, he picks on hobbits when nobody is around and whines about how poor Gondor cannot stand up to the might of Mordor...ohhhhh poor us he says we cannot do what's right we need to ring...help us we are weak...boo-hoo.

Beren never once complained he was awesome.

That's the problem with the popular vote, ain't it? There are too many morons with ignorant and daft opinions differing from yours, yet their vote carries the same weight as yours, although you clearly are right. ;)

Boromir wins by 9 votes to 3.

Match 8 of round 1:

Many fans will be saddened to see two heavyweights go at it so early in the competition, but as it is only one of these memorable characters will advance to the latter stages of the cup. This promises to be a tightly fought thriller:

Saruman vs. Gollum

[Morthoron]

++Gollum

Hands down, if for only two of the funniest sequences in the book: 'I wasn't sneaking!' and 'What's taters, precious?'.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

++Saruman

Who is to question? He's just wonderful. He is Curumo, the Head of the Order, he is Saruman the White, the Wise, he is Curunír, the Loremaster of the Rings, the Master of the Voice, he is Saruman of Many Colours, the Betrayer, the Bringer of the New Order, he is The White Hand, the one who leads the Uruk-Hai, the Lord of Isengard; and last but not least, he is Sharkey, the exile, who lost everything but his pitiful servant, he is the Destroyer of the Shire, and the guy with a fabulous death scene! All hail to Saruman!!!

[Lalwendë]

++Skip

I hate Skip, pitting Saruman Vs Gollum. How could he be so cruel?! :mad:

;)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

It's tempting to follow Lalwende's vote (but for Skip's
picking Glaurung instead of the noble Smaug ), however,
we must choose + + Gollum, who only wants to
help and get back his own from hobbits, who not only
steal the Precious but spoil nice rabbits! Granted, there
was that Deagol affair...but that was sooo long ago
and it was poor Smeagol's birthday.....

[Gollum the Great]

Legate has stated every reason I can think of for my vote.

++The White Hand

Though I do like Gollum a lot. For obvious reasons.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Now that's a word, Gollum! Indeed! Now really - who can vote for Gollum anymore, when even Gollum does not vote Gollum?

[mormegil]

A write-in candidate if I may as I care not for either of these candidates

++Beren

although you clearly are right

Exactly, I'm glad somebody finally recognizes that my opinion is always right. Skip, I've got a new plan, my vote carries the weight of 10 other votes, that should help bring some sanity back into these precedings.

[Thinlómien]

++Saruman

No mistake, I like them both, (and in a way, I like neither of them)...

But if you asked me which one is more charming, or with which one I'd rather have a cup of tea & talk some deep pihilosophical stuff, the answer is obvious. ;) Also, I have to admit that Saruman's charisma and voice are pretty cool... (I seldom use that word but on this thread I say it in about every post... :eek:)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Also, I have to admit that Saruman's charisma and voice are pretty cool... (I seldom use that word but on this thread I say it in about every post... :eek:)

A fan-girl of the deepest rank ;) :p

[skip spence]

As for me, I like the idea of both characters equally yet the choice is easy. Whereas Saruman is made out to be a master of wizardry and rethorics his actual appearances show little of it and that don't impress me much, as Shania Twain so eloquently put it.

Gollum on the other hand is all that he's made out to be, and then some.

++Gollum

[Nogrod]

An interesting choice indeed.

Well they both share some common traits, first and foremost the fact that they were both lured by something larger than themselves and were corrupted by that - and finally destroyed by it.

Asking why Gollum was lured by the craft of Sauron is a no-brainer - even if Gollum's story is touchy and tragic.

But with Saruman things get a bit more intersting. First he was lured by curiosity and knowledge (which I personally value much higher than just some dull shiny objects :D) but then somehow Sauron managed to twist him. Now how come that be as they were both of the maiar? What really happened there between the two an what were they thinking? Of these Tolkien doesn't but give a few little hints...

Though Saruman's downfall I have always found a bit anti-climatic. Not that every major character should exit the scene with a loud bang and some stupenduos fireworks, but somehow that whole "Sharkey" -episode with his personal revenge to the hobbits is just bad looking it from the point of view of Saruman's character. (From the hobbit POV it's different; they needed the final trial for the story to end)


Heh, the classical choice between the intellectual excitement vs. the emotional "being moved"...

I may need to abstain from voting this day. Let's see.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

But with Saruman things get a bit more intersting. First he was lured by curiosity and knowledge (which I personally value much higher than just some dull shiny objects :D) but then somehow Sauron managed to twist him. Now how come that be as they were both of the maiar? What really happened there between the two an what were they thinking? Of these Tolkien doesn't but give a few little hints...
Sauron? What? No, no, good mister! Now you are being unjust to poor Saruman! It was all only his own fault, his own achievement to fall! He met Sauron only much, much later!

Though Saruman's downfall I have always found a bit anti-climatic. Not that every major character should exit the scene with a loud bang and some stupenduos fireworks, but somehow that whole "Sharkey" -episode with his personal revenge to the hobbits is just bad looking it from the point of view of Saruman's character. (From the hobbit POV it's different; they needed the final trial for the story to end)

I actually find his end really great, this Sharkey-thing. Being completely destroyed, losing everything this way? Fascinating, I say. "A little mischief in a mean way", that summed it pretty well, and it's just great!

Oh my, this got me really to think again about Saruman. I have never possibly seen a more complex and more fascinating character than him. I like Gollum (the original one, whenever I happen to discard the movie imagination of him), but against Saruman, simply nobody stands a real chance.

[Gollum the Great]

Oh my, this got me really to think again about Saruman. I have never possibly seen a more complex and more fascinating character than him.

While Saruman is in and of himself interesting, what I really find enthralling (as an addition to perfection, if you know what I mean) is the whole of Isengard and Orthanc as a stronghold, base of operations, and center of doings for Saruman. The aura of production and breeding, the design and craftswork of the Numenoreans' unbreakable tower now being used by this ultimate character completely carries me away.

Originally posted by Legate
but against Saruman, simply nobody stands a real chance.

All the way no one could dream of standing within about 50 miles of Saruman.

The word "cool" understates him.

[Groin Redbeard]

Who is to question? He's just wonderful. He is Curumo, the Head of the Order, he is Saruman the White, the Wise, he is Curunír, the Loremaster of the Rings, the Master of the Voice, he is Saruman of Many Colours, the Betrayer, the Bringer of the New Order, he is The White Hand, the one who leads the Uruk-Hai, the Lord of Isengard; and last but not least, he is Sharkey, the exile, who lost everything but his pitiful servant, he is the Destroyer of the Shire, and the guy with a fabulous death scene! All hail to Saruman!!!

Ya, what he said!:D

++Saruman

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I would have to say

++Saruman

if for no other reason than that he apparently was, at one time, a good guy. Gollum got sucked in by the Ring so fast, I can't help but think he was already something of a stinker at heart. :)

[Lalwendë]

Alright, time for me to stop being facetious. ;)

I must make a decision and even though Gollum is a far better literary creation, I have to hold up my 'white hands' right now and admit that I find Saruman utterly cool and always have done. So if I had to live without one or indeed spend time with one of them, it would be Saruman and I'd be a fool to deny it. He's just so clever and interesting with his 'Third way' of doing things, thinking he could do things his way apart from either the Valar or Sauron.

++Saruman

[Boromir88]

++Saruman

Hands down the most effective liar in the history of literature. :D

[Ilya]

++ Gollum

He's the only ringbearer who actually accomplishes exactly what he sets out to do.

[Nerwen]

Well... let's see... Gollum is much the more sympathetic villain, but

++Saruman

is cooler.

(Besides, I came out as him on the character quiz.;))

[skip spence]

Exactly, I'm glad somebody finally recognizes that my opinion is always right. Skip, I've got a new plan, my vote carries the weight of 10 other votes, that should help bring some sanity back into these precedings.

Funny you should mention that because I've just decided to implement this rule, only with the slight alteration that it is my vote that carries the extra weight. Must save the precious, yesss.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

These
what I really find enthralling (as an addition to perfection, if you know what I mean) is the whole of Isengard and Orthanc as a stronghold, base of operations, and center of doings for Saruman.
three
if for no other reason than that he apparently was, at one time, a good guy.
things
He's just so clever and interesting with his 'Third way' of doing things, thinking he could do things his way apart from either the Valar or Sauron.
reflect clearly the variety of possibilities for which one can like Saruman: that's exactly the variety inside him which I was talking about! Many-colours, indeed...

Hands down the most effective liar in the history of literature. :D
:cool:

And skip, you may be the starter of this thread, but if you try to undermine our voting efforts, we are going to drop a Palantír on your head.

[Boromir88]

Aye Legate, and his "crows and gibbets" speech is purely a thing of beauty. ;)

[Aganzir]

++ Saruman

The silver-tongued white-handed red-hot wizard of many colours indeed.

[skip spence]

And skip, you may be the starter of this thread, but if you try to undermine our voting efforts, we are going to drop a Palantír on your head.

Okay, okay, those things are really heavy!

Saruman wins 9-4

Match 9 of round 1

Next up is another exiting encounter. Both are bearded, old and in possession of supernatural abilities but whereas one lives for his work, the other lives for pleasure.

Gandalf vs Tom Bombadil

[Gollum the Great]

Definitely

++Gandalf

Wielder of the Flame of Anor. Wise old counselor. Reminds my of my grandfather, full of intelligence, speaks in riddles, stern at times yet lovable.

[Groin Redbeard]

Bombadil is too silly for me. He is, at least to me, the ultimate ADD patient.:smokin: Therefore I would have to pick Gandalf.

++Gandalf

I don't vote for Gandalf because I dislike Tom Bombadil (lots of people in this thread are simply voting the other way because they don't like the match up), but because I really enjoy Gandalf better than that crazy "jolly Tom". Tolkien's way of sanctifying a prophet in his myth, Gandalf shows the true selflessness of a leader, and he is the only one out of the five Blue Wizards who stay true to the original purpose of Eru. We see the best of him as a care free old wander while in the Shire (as a rule only, as Aragorn states) and we see the cunning wise wizard that he is while he executes his plan to unite the free peoples of Middle-earth to fight against the forces of evil. Yet for all that we know about him there is still a sense of mystery around him, not even Galadriel knew his full purpose.

Anyway, I think Gandalf sayed it best in the comparision between him and Bombadil when he said: "He is a moss gathere, and I am a stone doomed to rolling."

[Thinlómien]

++Gandalf

Such a lovely mix of gentle wisdom, pity, true caring for citizens of Middle-Earth and a flaring temper with more than a little "toughness". Besides, he has an incredibly funny sense of humour at times. :D

Jolly old Tom is rather sympathetic too, but he just can't compete with one of my all-time favourites. :)

[Morthoron]

++Gandalf

Bombadil's gear is just too flamboyant, and his poetry is horrid.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

he is the only one out of the five Blue Wizards who stay true to the original purpose of Eru.
I think you mean one out of the five Wizards. Only two of them were Blue, and Gandalf was certainly Grey.

Speaking of him,

++Gandalf

Another great personality, and there's lot about him to admire, and besides, there's so many tales which could be told about him, so many things about which we know just hints! (To name just the most "obvious" ones: How exactly did it go when he as in Dol Guldur? What did he do in Moria when he was there for the first time? What did he do in Angmar or Nurn?!?!) Old TB is not a bad guy, but... he just is not as interesting.

[Lalwendë]

Okay, okay, those things are really heavy!

Saruman wins 9-4

Match 9 of round 1

Next up is another exiting encounter. Both are bearded, old and in possession of supernatural abilities but whereas one lives for his work, the other lives for pleasure.

Gandalf vs Tom Bombadil

Seriously, Skip, I have you pinned now. I've got your number. I know who you are.

You, sir, are the evil pixie who lives in the bottom of the machine thing that they draw numbers out of for FA Cup Fixtures and who nixes it and makes for evil match-ups.

;)

Anyway, as much as I lurve (yeah, lurve, bleurgh) Tom Bombadillo, it has to be Gandalf as he's runner up Best Wizard Ever.

++Gandalf

[Boromir88]

Oh come on where's the TB love?

++Tom Bombadil

I don't think any other character has as many thread dedicated to him than ole Bombadil.

Besides...Gandalf is the perpetrator of the horribe "Gandalf uncloaked!" gags, and he eats hobbits. :eek:

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Smaug , oh wait, he wasn't invited
to this contest :(

Well, then + + Tom Bombadil , since
he wasn't invited to PJ's movies.

Besides...Gandalf is the perpetrator of the horribe "Gandalf uncloaked!" gags, and he eats hobbits.

And he assaults noble Stewards of Gondor (Hey, it must be true, it's on tape)!

[Nogrod]

Olórin learned to cry with Nienna but no one knows where Tom learned to laugh.

Gandalf is just one wizard-maia - even though the greatest of them by any means - but what is Tom? No one knows where did he come from or how long has be been around?

Gandalf is weak enough to be afraid of the master-ring but Tom just toys with it.

Do I need say more? :rolleyes:

++ Tom Bombadill

Even if silly, he's the coolest guy in the whole ME. He carries something of Aristotle's megalopsykhia with him, the highest virtue - to be enough for himself not to count his worth on the opinions of others, and secure enough to be able to hold his ground (or those he cared / were good) if challenged.

One should not step on the toes of a wizard... but even less should one make Tom angry. :eek: (Tom just sang the Barrow-Wight away... Gandalf would have needed threats, magic + fire and brimstone to that effect!)


To be honest I do love Gandalf as all of you others but we need some competition here - and Aganzir painted my boots yellow anyway! :D

[mormegil]

Besides...Gandalf is the perpetrator of the horribe "Gandalf uncloaked!" gags

All the more reason to vote for him. I must agree with Lal in that this is a difficult match up indeed.

++Tommy

His taste in women is much better than Gandalf's

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Gandalf

Because he pretty much literally saved my life. (long story, on my website)

[Nogrod]

Gandalf leads only 7-4!

[Ilya]

Oh, this is a tough call, but I gotta go

++Gandalf

Gotta love a made who can always handle white, and has the sense not to sing too much.

[Eönwë]

++Tom Bombadil

How can you not vote for him‽ :p


edit: Yes, I'm aloud to use strange punctuation marks.

[Lalwendë]

++Tom Bombadil

How can you not vote for him!:p

Listen, I nearly abstained, this is getting ridiculous! I'm a Libran, this is literally torture to me. :eek:

[Nerwen]

++Gandalf

because he's one of my favourite characters ever.

EDIT: fixed bolding.

[skip spence]

++Bombadil

He's got enough confidence in his manhood to wear outlandish outfits and colour-combinations and to strut around like a fairy despite the conservative environment he is in. Plus, I've heard Gandalf beats Hobbits. Or Eats. Probably both.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I've heard Gandalf beats Hobbits. Or Eats. Probably both.

Actually, that's a misreported rumor. It's said in Mordor that Gandalf was
a "headhunter" for Smaug, sending him nice scrumptious hobbits under
the pretext of being treasure hunters until one of them, to Gandalf's astonishment, actually helped killed the worm!

note: Saruman objected to Gandalf's actions (on ethical grounds) and was known
to send messengers to try rescue hobbits from danger and bring them
safely to Orthanc.

[A Little Green]

Anyway, I think Gandalf sayed it best in the comparision between him and Bombadil when he said: "He is a moss gathere, and I am a stone doomed to rolling."Yes, that's fitting - and when I read that passage, I'm immediately much more fascinated by the moss-gatherer. We have seen many of those rolling stones, but moss-gatherers not nearly as much.

++ Bombadil

I love the sense of mystery about him, the way no one knows what he is or where and when he came from. Yeah, Gandalf is cool and all that and I like him a lot, but he doesn't have the same intrigue as Tom. He's a trifle too hero for my taste. No can do, folks - Ol' Gandalf just doesn't interest me as much as Tom does.

[skip spence]

Is a remarkable comeback under way? Gandalf raced to a 6-0 lead but Bombadillo has clawed himself back into it and now trails only by 9-7. Tom was the first to walk the hills and fields but will he also be the last man standing? Sing up a storm Tommy!

Seriously, Skip, I have you pinned now. I've got your number. I know who you are.

You, sir, are the evil pixie who lives in the bottom of the machine thing that they draw numbers out of for FA Cup Fixtures and who nixes it and makes for evil match-ups.


Now that's just plain ridiculous! I'll have you know I'm just a regular run-of-the-mill pixie who isn't evil in any way and wouldn't dream of mixing with the draw of any competition, in association football or otherwise. Besides, pixies don't fit into lottery machines, everybody knows that! What the FA Cup and the Popularity Cup have in common though is that there's no seeding.

[Aganzir]

To be honest I do love Gandalf as all of you others but we need some competition here - and Aganzir painted my boots yellow anyway! :D
:smokin:

++ Tom Bom, jolly Tom

One of my favourite characters. His carefree attitude is something I try to remember myself - why worry about minor things? All in all he's a better role model to me than Gandalf.
I guess the most important things why I like him are his independence and freedom. I would love to live like him in a small house in the middle of a creepy forest, not being afraid of it because it has no power on him. And yes I agree with morm - his taste in women is way ahead of Gandalf, although having read the Adventures of Tom Bombadil, one might want to question his means. ;)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

You cannot vote for an enigma, that woul just be silly!

++Gandalf

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

You cannot vote for an enigma, that woul just be silly!

Well, I wouldn't say voting for an enigma is actually silly. That's actually what many people like. But still, I prefer Gandalf simply for what he is like. And speaking of it, even Gandalf himself is, from part, an enigma...

As much as everyone is, for that matter.

[skip spence]

That's it, despite a late scare Gandalf has defeated Tom Bombadill 10-8. Perhaps Tom will find comfort in Goldberry's warm bosom.

Match 10 of Round 1:

Finally it's time for the first woman to enter the competition. Eowyn, the shield maiden, is up against lore-master Elrond.

Elrond vs. Eowyn

[Morthoron]

Finally it's time for the first woman to enter the competition. Elrond vs. Eowyn

Ummm...which one is the woman?

Sorry, was having a movie moment. Actually, I'll go with ++Elrond, who is more feminine than the manly Eowyn.

[Thinlómien]

What a difficult question! I don't know... Elrond is a great person, no doubt, but he's also a bit boring. I like Éowyn's personality and her story is most touching, but her end kind of irks me. Why does it have to be so that a woman only finds peace when she gets married and learns to accept the place society has given her? But if I put away my feminist grudgings, I actually like her, and even her story... Hmm... Must think about this.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

This will take some thought. Book Elrond vs. Eowyn
(book or movie) is close, but not movie Agent Elrond :eek: .

[Aganzir]

++ Elrond

I despise a woman who would die because the random man she had a crush on didn't love her in return. And her ending is lame. Female characters like that annoy me. A male character like that would annoy me as well, but not as much because he wouldn't fit so well inside the man stereotype.

On the other hand, Elrond was the son of Eärendil (yet one fave character) and was raised by the sons of Fëanor. :cool: And all that First Age stuff. And Second Age.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Since the theme here is "popularity" I'll go with
+ + Eowyn .

Once she got over her no doubt
testosterone pill popping valkeyrie phase she'd be
a lot more fun at parties then Elrond, who no doubt
continued to suffer from early childhood
kidnapped trauma syndrome.

[the phantom]

This is one of the easiest match-ups I've seen.

Elrond is the descendent of the Kings of the Noldor, the Kings of the Sindar, the House of Hador, and the House of Beor. He spent time with the sons of Feanor (I love them), fought beside Gil-galad, and founded the refuge of Rivendell.

And after retiring from warfare, he became the greatest healer in Middle Earth.

It is because of Elrond that there is a King in Gondor, for he preserved the line of Isildur over many years, and even took in Aragorn and raised him as a son.

He is one of the wisest and most learned in lore of any in Middle Earth. The council which decided the fate of the Ring wasn't in Lothlorien, or Minas Tirith- it was at Elrond's house.

And finally, the trump card-

Elrond controls a flippin RIVER! :eek: Who the heck in Middle Earth can do that? Must be that Ainu blood.

Elrond is amazing. And compared to most all of the other big-time Elves, he is much less proud.

++Elrond

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Elrond controls a flippin RIVER! :eek: Who the heck in Middle Earth can do that? Must be that Ainu blood.

No, it's the flippin Ring. But really, this match ain't easy. Both of the contestants have their pros and cons. I may actually abstain from voting this time. Neither of them is the "top", but they are both pretty good folks. I may as well toss a coin :D

[Lalwendë]

Hmmm, I'm not that fussed on either character in the same way as I have huge obsessions with characters like Bilbo, Saruman, Tom and Gandalf...though both are rather interesting in their own right.

Elrond is preferable to my tastes in The Hobbit, where he comes across as more friendly and wise and part of faerie. He's a little too Authoritarian in LotR. I maintain he does have a beard though ;)

Eowyn can be annoying in that she is given some important work to do by Theoden but wants to enact her Amazon fantasies. However she's also touchingly determined to do her bit if you look at her another way. And I'm not bothered by her settling down with Faramir, just jealous ;) Hmmm....

[the phantom]

No, it's the flippin Ring.
I don't recall that Vilya had anything to do with river control. The Elven rings were not designed to be used as weapons, but as instruments of preservation. They didn't grant super-powers.

Elrond controlling a river is simply Elrond controlling a river. He had crazy skills.

[mormegil]

++Elrond

The whole agent Smith thing and Eowyn's personal hygiene leaves much to be desired.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I was never overly fond of Eowyn and I always found the counsil of Elrond one of the most interesting parts of the books, I also think that Elrond is a nice charachter. . . probably not a favourit, but he is allright

If we were talking about the films, then I find them both a bit annoying, but Eowyn less so.

++Elrond

[Gollum the Great]

++Elrond

He makes Muruvor, which I've always wanted to try. Probably better than any of the energy drinks I have.

[Nerwen]

++Eowyn.

I was a tomboy...:D

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Eowyn

Because she offed the Witch King while Elrond sat at home. In fact, even when he didn't sit at home, I don't recall that Elrond really accomplished anything quite so remarkable.

[mormegil]

++Eowyn

Because she offed the Witch King while Elrond sat at home. In fact, even when he didn't sit at home, I don't recall that Elrond really accomplished anything quite so remarkable.

Please...she was merely suicidal and hoped to accomplish this in an 'assisted' fashion. It was a cowardly way out and she thought it would have succeeded but she failed.


(To clarify to everybody who might wonder, I have a lot of fun with this so please don't read too much into what I say)

[the phantom]

Because she offed the Witch King
According to the book, she just happened to be the person standing there when Merry's magic anti-Witch King sword rendered the Witch King easily killable. Anyone could have killed him in that moment.

Before Merry saved her skin, Eowyn was hurt on the ground and the Witch King was swinging his mace down for the killing blow.
while Elrond sat at home
He had already done the whole battle thing in the second age. He retired and became a healer. And with the Elves, those who specialized in healing abstained from war, for it was believed that the taking of life hindered their healing skills.

And without his healing skills- no Frodo.

And without his care and protection, no Aragorn.

Without Elrond, game over. Evil wins.

[skip spence]

Oh I find Eowyn quite touching, and she is a clever lass at that. Just reread her dialogue with Aragorn in "The Passing Of The Grey Company" and while Aragorn in a sense is right to tell her to stay behind she always finds good arguments in her favour. She doesn't let him tell her off and it's really heartfelt too. When she rode out to find death (now she wasn't actually seeking death actively, she just didn't fear it) she did it thinking that Aragorn, whom she loved, was lost in the Path Of The Dead. In this situation she'd rather fight at the side of her brother and father than wait for them to return which they probably won't, she knows that.

Elrond I'm sure is a fascinating character once you get to know him, having seen three Ages of the world and having been heavily involved in two military victories against Sauron that would've made the battles in LotR look like minor skirmishes. But we never get to know him, do we? He has no discernible personality.

++Eowyn

Edit: The Phantom makes a very good case for Master Elrond, admittedly. I nearly changed my mind there.

[Thinlómien]

Hey, isn't this funny? They both lose their parents, become great warriors and retire to be healers! :eek: I never thought of them that way. :D Ooh, quite interesting...

I don't know, I just cannot decide. I love Éowyn's sorrow, despair and courage, but Elrond is wise, and like Rune pointed out, his council is great, and he too has deep sorrow in his story. And phantom makes a good case for Elrond and skip a good one for Éowyn.

Hmph. Too difficult.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I don't recall that Vilya had anything to do with river control. The Elven rings were not designed to be used as weapons, but as instruments of preservation. They didn't grant super-powers.
It was preservation of Rivendell. I guess the river as border is actually pretty logical, even though usually it wasn't so violent in its manifestation.
Anyway, interesting. It never occured to me to think of it that way - since I remember, it was always the "Ring of Water" for me.

He had already done the whole battle thing in the second age. He retired and became a healer. And with the Elves, those who specialized in healing abstained from war, for it was believed that the taking of life hindered their healing skills.
That's most interesting, and indeed, Elrond was Gil-Galad's page! Now that would be cool just for itself...

When she rode out to find death (now she wasn't actually seeking death actively, she just didn't fear it) she did it thinking that Aragorn, whom she loved, was lost in the Path Of The Dead. In this situation she'd rather fight at the side of her brother and father than wait for them to return which they probably won't, she knows that.
Yes, that's the classic "despair and death" like Éomer's ride on Pelennor, when it really seems that there is nothing but the unstoppable darkness coming. Hey, that's fascinating in its own way. Hm. Great.

I can't make up my mind. And I find it funny as well :D I may really as well just observe...

[Thinlómien]

I decided that if I try to reason which one of them I like better, I won't get anywhere. So, instead, I decided to go with my gut-feeling of which one of them is my favourite. Therefore, I vote:

++Éowyn

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I decided that if I try to reason which one of them I like better, I won't get anywhere. So, instead, I decided to go with my gut-feeling of which one of them is my favourite.

My problem is that I don't have even the gut feeling ;)

[Lalwendë]

OK, I ought to vote for Eowyn or this contest is going to have no women in it!

However, I am going to vote

++Elrond

Because I was sitting thinking about how cool he is as an Elf who is actually not insular and welcomes all sorts of peoples through his house. He must have been seen as quite strange by your regular Elves, allowing Dwarves in, and even though he could be seen as some Hippy-Meister what with the singing in trees his folk do and his "Hey man, let's all be friends" kind of establishment, he's still less irritating and snooty than most Elves. So he deserves some dibs for that ;)

[A Little Green]

++ Éowyn

I love her. Except that her end always makes me angry, but I consider it not her own fault but Mr. Tolkien's. Apparently a woman has to be shown her proper place in the end which sucks.

Elrond I'm sure is a fascinating character once you get to know him, having seen three Ages of the world and having been heavily involved in two military victories against Sauron that would've made the battles in LotR look like minor skirmishes. But we never get to know him, do we? He has no discernible personality.Exactly - I think that's just why he has never touched me nearly as most others. I know he's a fascinating person and all that, but just knowing it isn't enough - I want to see his personality myself before proceeding to call it fascinating. Elrond just doesn't provoke any feelings in me the way Éowyn does, however fine a man he must be.

[Groin Redbeard]

Now this is a toughy. Elrond is in the book for only three chapters and makes a lasting impression on the reader, mainly after reading the council. His wisdom, kindness, and charity seem to be already apparent without Tolkien saying as much, he's the only elf who I don't find fault with and wholly like.

Eowyn on the other hand contributes much more to the books. She gives us the internal struggle that she is feeling and this gives us much action. Though I do not like her views on women warriors, I think that her character makes up for her little flaws.

++Eowyn

I guess I could never bring myself to vote for an elf.:D

[Lalwendë]

Why does everyone think Eowyn ends up with a bum deal? She gets Faramir and she gets a certain amount of power that she'd not have had stopping in Rohan, plus she's happy. There's not that much to fight for once the War is over anyway. Sounds alright to me ;)

[skip spence]

Wow, that was close. This match was very reminiscent of the previous one. This time it was Elrond who got a lot of early votes and Eowyn who came back with a vengeance. As was the case with Bombadill, it wasn't enough though. She came back to 7-7, but since Elrond was first to 7 he did just enough to win by a whisker.

[skip spence]

Match 11 of Round 1:

Next up is another woman who often seems to stir up strong feelings, positive or otherwise, amongst fans of Tolkien with a feminist outlook. She is paired up with Merry, the pipeweed connoisseur from Buckland.

Meriadoc Brandybuck vs. Luthien

[Aganzir]

Why does everyone think Eowyn ends up with a bum deal? She gets Faramir and she gets a certain amount of power that she'd not have had stopping in Rohan, plus she's happy. There's not that much to fight for once the War is over anyway. Sounds alright to me ;)
Because of the woman cannot be complete until she's married attitude. I don't like it that the whole of her appearence in Lotr seems to be just a quest for love and some tall, dark, handsome man. Her relationship with Faramir was much better than that with Aragorn, but it kind of spoils her story anyway. She would have been much better off as a spinster.

++ Lúthien

I'm not that great a fan of Lúthien either, but I pretty much dislike Merry. Lúthien is another example of a typical Tolkien woman who would give everything for love, and I can't help being annoyed by that.

But then on the other hand she was also independent and daring - unlike Arwen who sat nicely home and waited for Aragorn to claim the throne of Gondor, Lúthien ran away to fulfill her own destiny. Actually the first time I started liking her was on reading the Lay of Leithian:

She wavered, and she stayed her song.
'The road,' she said, 'was wild and long,
but Thingol sent me not, nor knows
what way his rebellious daughter goes.'

And one can't deny that she was quite skilful, what with her magic.

[Thinlómien]

I don't really like Lúthien. She has some pretty cool (see, I'm using that word again :D) magic things she does, but otherwise, she doesn't impress me much. I have nothing against it that she is ready to give everything for love, but I've heard Mithalwen's preachings of her selfishness countless times and I can kind of agree. ;)

++Merry

He, on the other hand, has always been one of my favourites. I've always identified with him (well, mostly because my sister was a total Pippin when she was younger and she still is). I love his cheerful and gentle spirit, and it is nice to have a hobbit who has an apparent love for lore and stories but is still not a geek like those Bagginses. ;) Also, Merry seems to be very caring about his friends and good at arranging stuff, probably thanks to his warm down-to-earth attitude. Furthermore, I've always had a thing for leader-type characters, and a leader is exactly what Merry becomes in the end.

Lastly, Merry's relationship with Théoden and Éowyn too is very touching. The following quote (among others) always makes my eyes turn suspiciously moist:

"Good!" said Merry. "Then I would like supper first, and after that a pipe." At that his face clouded. "No, not a pipe. I don't think I'll smoke again."

"Why not?" said Pippin.

"Well," answered Merry slowly. "He is dead. It has brought it all back to me. He said he was sorry he had never had a chance of talking herb-lore with me. Almost the last thing he ever said. I shan't ever be able to smoke again without thinking of him, and that day, Pippin, when he rode up to Isengard and was so polite."

"Smoke then, and think of him!" said Aragorn. "For he was a gentle heart and a great king and kept his oaths; and he rose out of the shadows to a last fair morning. Though your service to him was brief, it should be a memory glad and honourable to the end of your days."

(Too bad really, now I'm having tears in my eyes. But Aragorn's words there are just incredibly beautiful.)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Luthien

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, I think this is not as hard as the last one.

++Merry

Merry was, of all the Hobbits, probably the one I liked the most. He was clever, hmm, almost like an elf ;) Which gives him a big bonus in my eyes. He, if anybody, would be the Saruman of the Fellowship. (When I was small, I wanted to make Merry join Saruman and serve in Isengard. Say, wouldn't that be cool? :D ) And I never got why the silly Pippin had to be the one to get over all this Uruk-hai experience by himself, though:
Merry and he had drawn their swords, but the Orcs did not wish to fight, and had tried only to lay hold of them, even when Merry had cut off several of their arms and hands. Good old
Merry!
But anyway, even from a less-freaky perspective ;) Merry is a great personality, he is very kind and aside from what Lommy quoted above, the RotK and all the things in which he desperately wanted to help: to follow the King, fight the WK to help (or actually, save???) Éowyn... all that is just so touching.

Lúthien is not necessary bad, I would say against the first-look and from-all-sides coming criticism of her as character that we actually know very little about her, at least most of us (haven't read the whole Lay of Leithian in original version, maybe there's something more). But it is true that the little we know is a bit "schematized", so to say... or, rather, to be just, I think it is us who are fitting her into some scheme, but the way she is portrayed kind of asks for schematization. I also guess she suffers a bit, or at least in my eyes, from the "main-hero syndrom": the main hero, if he does not have something special about him (but not the usually "special", but something "specially special"), is never as interesting as the minor characters. And Lúthien is somebody whose tale is recounted or remembered countless times throughout the history of Middle-Earth, and she simply is not (at least from my point of view) interesting enough to "survive" that.

[Groin Redbeard]

Who can turn down a lovable curly haired Brandybuck (so what if Luthien is the most beautiful women that lived;))?

++Merry

Undoubtedly the smartest out of all the hobbits. He doesn't posses Frodo's wisdom and understanding, but he does have common sense and can think well when in caught in a jam. Yet for all his bravery he still is a small hobbit who knows nothing of the outside world.
"I have never been out of my own land before. And if I had known what the world outside was like. I don't think I should have had the heart to leave it." Makes his loyal nature and steadfast bravery stand out all the more doesn't it?:)

Are we talking about Luthien after the Silmaril was given to her? Because if we are...;)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Hmm. Luthien managed to sing so poignantly that she moved Namo to an act of compassion, and Merry not only stood by Eowyn when she faced the Witch King, he gave him the poke in the knee that made his defeat possible. Tossing coin....

++Merry

:)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

++Luthien

She is one fit bird.

[mormegil]

++ Lúthien

She is rather cute.

[Morthoron]

Hmmm...let's look at my choices here: a wisecracking Hobbit, whose principal feat was to blindsidedly backstab a Nazgul -- or the hottest elf maid of all time, who held her own against Sauron and Morgoth, wore a Silmaril and begot the greatest and most storied family line in all Middle-earth.

++Luthien

[Aganzir]

It seems Lúthien isn't very popular among females. Come on, are you all jealous of her looks? :p

[Lalwendë]

This was quite an easy one at long last!

++Merry

He's a Hobbit so he automatically beats an Elf of course. But he's also a very likeable chap. He's not as silly as Pippin or as 'away with the fairies' as Frodo, but he's very, very nice and seems like the kind of chap you'd like to have as a friend - reliable and sensible but not a bore!

[skip spence]

++Luthien

If she could move Namo Mandos, the Unmovable, how can I resist? I especially like her in the Lost Tales: her Mata Hari-number in Morgoth's court is an all time classic.

And what's wrong with giving everything for love? Is it preferable to prioritize career and money?

[Nerwen]

It seems Lúthien isn't very popular among females. Come on, are you all jealous of her looks? :p

Not I. I think

++Lúthien

is awesome... but it's still a hard decision, because I like Merry a lot. However, this way I'll annoy Mithalwen.:D

[Thinlómien]

It seems Lúthien isn't very popular among females. Come on, are you all jealous of her looks?I would be more worried of the fact that she seems to be very popular among the males: I bet they all just like her looks. :p

More seriously though, you may look at it from another perspective: few women can resist Merry's adorableness. ;) For example, I even dreamt (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=555287&postcount=1253) that I would like to marry him. ;)

[Mithalwen]

I would be more worried of the fact that she seems to be very popular among the males: I bet they all just like her looks. :p



Well it certainly isn't her sparkling dialogue and great personality is it? Surely the fact the woman never speaks is a factor.

Aganzir & Lommy - you completely misunderstand Eowyn. Her despair is not caused by Aragorn - he just shuts a door out of it and her happiness is not dependent on Faramir. She has changed within her self which allows her to be happy and with him. She makes her own choice - she chooses life over death and with it accepts a man who loves her for herself. She is far from anti-feminist - it is a rather old fashioned feminist view that you can't have self fulfilment and a happy relationship - and frankly the Faramir- Eowyn relationship is about the only one in all middle earth that seems to have the potential to be truly happy and balanced. Why is choosing to be a healer a cop-out? Do you think women doctors in our age have betrayed the sisterhood? Do you think that Eowyn really wanted to be a career soldier ?

[Thinlómien]

Aganzir & Lommy - you completely misunderstand Eowyn. Her despair is not caused by Aragorn - he just shuts a door out of it and her happiness is not dependent on Faramir. She has changed within her self which allows her to be happy and with him. She makes her own choice - she chooses life over death and with it accepts a man who loves her for herself. She is far from anti-feminist - it is a rather old fashioned feminist view that you can't have self fulfilment and a happy relationship - and frankly the Faramir- Eowyn relationship is about the only one in all middle earth that seems to have the potential to be truly happy and balanced. Why is choosing to be a healer a cop-out? Do you think women doctors in our age have betrayed the sisterhood? Do you think that Eowyn really wanted to be a career soldier?I have nothing against a woman finding happiness or purpose in marriage, nor do I definitely have anything against women finding their place in a profession that falls within the limits of the rather limited traditional female role. However, I'm not happy with Éowyn's end, it seems a bit forced. (I admit I would probably like Éowyn's story better if it was in a book written by a more feminist author...) I don't mean to imply that Éowyn even wanted to be a career soldier, but she did have the spirit of a warrior instead of a passive caretaker which she had been all her life. I don't want to pursue this topic too much within the limits of this thread, but I'll say I would have liked to see her end up as some sort of independent ruler (of course, nothing against her co-ruling with her beloved husband ;)) who would take the sword to protect her people if necessary. But the healer-ending is just too lame, and too much of the sort that "a smart girl stops disobeying and takes the place she was appointed (by men) in the first place". :rolleyes:

Mith, why don't you vote Merry now, btw? :Merisu:

[Mithalwen]

But she is not taking a male appointed role. She is taking the role she chooses for herself - and the greatest healers in Middle Earth are men!!! Elrond & his sons, Aragorn..the houses of healing is run by a man.

However maybe, at the risk of sounding very patronising, it takes age and experience to "get" Eowyn. I thought much the same at your age though I loved Eowyn, I felt she had got a lesser fate. Only later and after much more careful reading did I realise she hit the jackpot. It is quite clear to me that she will be Galadriels to Faramir's Celeborn (albeit a rather more interesting Celeborn ;) ). Eowyn will never be passive and I doubt that is what Faramir would want. Far less lame than dying for love like Luthien and her mini-me.

Incidentally when she was given the opportunity to lead her people she didn't take it. She has spirit certainly but I think in times of peace she would not seek battle for its own sake. I see no blood lust in her. Her mission is to defend her king not simply fight else she would have stayed with Elfhelm's Eored.

Anyway ++Merry. He is a splendid hobbit. He is observant, curious but thinks first unlike Master Took. he is a scholar (a philologist what is more) but not a bore. He is a bon viveur without being decadent and though a smoker has the decency to do so outside. He is a great friend and shows true courage. Sam's bravery stems from his devotion, Frodo has his duty, Pippin to an extent is along for the ride but Merry has more understanding of what he is letting himself in for and still goes. Then he is a Brandybuck and has that "Celtic" quirkiness I can relate to. And he hates places that are too noisy ...I am quite one to prefer a quiet walk and a breath of air over a crowded bar at times.

I keep thinking of him as a "Spook" now.... maybe Harry. He has always been one of my favourite characters whereas the canary is fighting it out with Bombadil for most hated.

++Meriadoc Brandybuck

[skip spence]

Summing up the votes it appears Luthien, our favourite fluttering infatuation, has danced herself to a 7-6 win. It's also been made clear she can't rely on any support from Mithalwen in later rounds.

Match 12 of Round 1:

Now for a real Aman derby where feelings are bound get heated. He was fascinated by her beautiful golden locks, but was refused even a single strand of it. One thing led to another and soon enough he led a rebellion against the Gods, leading the Noldor back to Middle Earth. She came too, perhaps just to **** him off.

Fëanor vs. Galadriel

[skip spence]

I would be more worried of the fact that she seems to be very popular among the males: I bet they all just like her looks. :p

More seriously though, you may look at it from another perspective: few women can resist Merry's adorableness. ;) For example, I even dreamt (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=555287&postcount=1253) that I would like to marry him. ;)

Maybe I should start a new thread to find out who's sexiest in Middle Earth: "I'm too sexy for my hauberk" or perhaps "The Middle Earth Wet T-shirt Bonanza!". Maybe not.

[Gollum the Great]

++Feanor

I love craftsmen. This guy fought Balrogs.

[Aganzir]

And what's wrong with giving everything for love? Is it preferable to prioritize career and money?
If it was just occasional and not almost every Tolkien's woman character doing that, it would be alright. It annoys me that there seems to be no other way for a woman to be great than that. Except for Haleth.

Not I. I think

++Lúthien
We're clearly a minority. :cool:

Aganzir & Lommy - you completely misunderstand Eowyn.
What annoys me is that she has this crush on Aragorn whom she didn't know at all and then she makes such a fuss of being refused.
She should have been like the Swedish Queen Kristina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Kristina). Really. Then I'd be happy.
Personally I don't think there's no chance a woman could be happy when married to a man. ;) However, it seems Éowyn didn't have any other option - she must marry because that's what women do. She fought against what was considered normal, and was put to her "proper" place in the end, no matter if she did it voluntarily or not. Just so she'd get a happy ending. Just like women who did something unconventional or immoral in very old novels were in the end accepted again as members of society, and got a nice marriage and such. It's too conservative for my taste.
Or then it's some cultural thing since I see all of us Finns have complained about it.

Maybe I should start a new thread to find out who's sexiest in Middle Earth: "I'm too sexy for my hauberk" or perhaps "The Middle Earth Wet T-shirt Bonanza!". Maybe not.
Yes, go ahead. :-D

The following pair is really difficult (I, too, am starting to hate you, skip). I like both Fëanor and Galadriel and wouldn't like either of them to fall out now.

Garr.

I am not one of those who think Fëanor was stupid because of his pride and its consequences. They are just an interesting trait. And an inner fire like that!
However I find Galadriel a bit boring in Lotr - it's Nerwen (:p) whom I really really adore. Galadriel is wise and sweet and all, but somehow... I don't know.

++Fëanor

But it's really a flip of a coin.

edit: xed with Gollum

[Lalwendë]

++Galadriel.

She might have something of the Margaret Thatcher about her, but she's endlessly fascinating. Whereas Feanor was a grade A spoilt brat who threw away his life/talent along with his dummy.

[Thinlómien]

What a no-brainer.

++Galadriel

I don't like Fëanor. I know I've said I like proud characters, but he's proud to the point of being unpleasant. I can only think of two good things in him: some of his sons are rather nice ;) and what happend to his body after his death is pretty cool. (Okay, totally wrong choice of word this time. :D)

Galadriel, on the other hand, is among my favourite characters ever. I like her better than any other woman in Tolkien's works, except maybe Haleth, but she's such a minor character that they cannot really be compared.

Galadriel is proud (the key word, you see ;)) but not foolish nor full of herself. She's very wise and has some rather uncanny skills. Or what would you say of her mind-reading and her mirror? Also, she's ambitious and full of desire to see new lands, both of which I approve of. She has also a nicely subtle sense of humour.

Furthermore, I very much like the duality in her nature. The Noldorin pride and a certain coldness mixed with a spirit that is, in the end, very gentle. Her story intrigues me and its sadness touches me: she is, in a way, the embodiment or the symbol of the Elves' leaving Middle-Earth and the fading of their achievements.

edit: xed with Agan and Lal... interesting

[Thinlómien]

However, it seems Éowyn didn't have any other option - she must marry because that's what women do. She fought against what was considered normal, and was put to her "proper" place in the end, no matter if she did it voluntarily or not. Just so she'd get a happy ending. Just like women who did something unconventional or immoral in very old novels were in the end accepted again as members of society, and got a nice marriage and such. It's too conservative for my taste.Exactly. Well phrased, m'dear. :D

But she is not taking a male appointed role. She is taking the role she chooses for herselfBut the role she takes clearly mirrors the role she was given earlier when she had to take care of Théoden. So, in a way, it is a male appointed role.

Incidentally when she was given the opportunity to lead her people she didn't take it. She has spirit certainly but I think in times of peace she would not seek battle for its own sake. I see no blood lust in her. Her mission is to defend her king not simply fight else she would have stayed with Elfhelm's Eored.Yes, and I could imagine her later having a similar mission to defend her people, or something. She does have a sort of warrior spirit in her, after all.

Or then it's some cultural thing since I see all of us Finns have complained about it.Yeah, indeed: Finland is the notorious feminist country where women have always been at least quite equal with men and got the right to vote third in the world and first in Europe. ;)

[Aganzir]

But the role she takes clearly mirrors the role she was given earlier when she had to take care of Théoden. So, in a way, it is a male appointed role.
Exactly. Well phrased, m'dear.

Yeah, indeed: Finland is the notorious feminist country where women have always been at least quite equal with men and got the right to vote third in the world and first in Europe. ;)
And we don't have separate pronouns for he and she. We're all just hän. Or alternatively, men are referred to as se, 'it'. ;)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

++Galadriel.

She might have something of the Margaret Thatcher about her, but she's endlessly fascinating. Whereas Feanor was a grade A spoilt brat who threw away his life/talent along with his dummy.

Don't say that!

Galadriel is lovely, wise and powerful. . .The other could easily be the master of Sauron.

++Galadriel

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Galadriel

Feanor makes cool stuff and speaks real purtty, but
as far politics and military strategy go he's dumb as a doorknob.

Btw, I wonder if they have cable tv in the Halls of Mandos. If so
it'd be interesting to see Feanor's reaction when (a dwarf!) gets
three strands of Galadriel's hair. :D

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I'd have to go with

++Galadriel

as well. Talented though he might be, Feanor had an ego that was more than a match for his gifts -- kinda like some of my more obnoxious relatives. ;)

[Nogrod]

She might have something of the Margaret Thatcher about her... which should lead into a direct dismissal, right? Honestly? :rolleyes:

---

Whom I would like to have as my friend? Galadriel.

With whom I would like to sit down and have a deep conversation of things being and not-being? Galadriel.

Whom would I trust in any matter personal, local or global? Galadriel.


Whom will I vote?

++ Fëanor

He's just the perpetator unsurpassed, the maker of great stories, the one without whom we would not have all the tensions and richenss of the history of the M-E! If all the elves were like Galadriel there would be less drama and less truth in the whole story.

Fëanor is exciting even if he's a bully and a one-track-mind idiot in the end.

[Morthoron]

A tough one, surely (I know, you're not Shirley). Anyway, these are two of the most important characters in the books (for different reasons, obviously, Shirley).

I will have to go with ++Feanor, as almost the entire Silmarillion hinges on his creations and his actions. He is despicable, vengeful, obstinate, but so were many other artistic geniuses in the 'real world'. For instance, Michelangelo was such a cranky so-and-so that he famously snubbed the formidable Pope Julius II, nicknamed 'The Terrible Father'. He literally had to be dragged back to finish the Sistine Chapel (Raphael, who like Da Vinci had a falling out with Michelangelo, said he reminded him of a 'solitary hangman').

So Feanor, the brooding master, called down the heavens to witness his folly, for he loved too much the work of his hands; and the course of Middle-earth was forever changed.

[Groin Redbeard]

Oh gosh, now it looks like going to have to vote for an elf.:rolleyes:

++Galadriel

All the good reasons have been already said about her. There is nothing attractive about the fool of a king who leads his own people to misery. He is like a silver tongued dictator who sacrifices everyone for the sake of his own foolish ego.

For instance, Michelangelo was such a cranky so-and-so that he famously snubbed the formidable Pope Julius II, nicknamed 'The Terrible Father'. He literally had to be dragged back to finish the Sistine Chapel (Raphael, who like Da Vinci had a falling out with Michelangelo, said he reminded him of a 'solitary hangman').Michaelangelo didn't despise his creator and lead his entire race into misery.

[mormegil]

++Galadriel

The fact that she gave Gimli 3 hairs is all you need to know.

[Morthoron]

Michaelangelo didn't despise his creator...

Ah, but according to many fundamental Christians spewing their version of the Bible, his creator would despise Michelangelo for his homosexuality and send him to Hell. At least Tolkien granted a measure of forgiveness to Feanor at the end of all things.

and lead his entire race into misery.

And how many leaders profess an earnest love of their version of the creator, yet lead their race and the world into misery in spite of their avowed belief?

In any case, I don't recall Feanor actually despising his creator. Can you point to the text where that is stated?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

When I opened the thread and saw somewhere "++Galadriel" (without yet reading the thread properly), I was clear on what is the choice for me :) Of course, because of the sense of duty, I scrolled up and checked who the other candidate is - but I can hardly imagine a worthy competition here. :)

++Galadriel

And now I may as well go and read the arguments which people had for one or another here on this thread :p

[Mithalwen]

If it was just occasional and not almost every Tolkien's woman character doing that, it would be alright. It annoys me that there seems to be no other way for a woman to be great than that. Except for Haleth.

What annoys me is that she has this crush on Aragorn whom she didn't know at all and then she makes such a fuss of being refused.
She should have been like the Swedish Queen Kristina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Kristina). Really. Then I'd be happy.
Personally I don't think there's no chance a woman could be happy when married to a man. ;) However, it seems Éowyn didn't have any other option - she must marry because that's what women do. She fought against what was considered normal, and was put to her "proper" place in the end, no matter if she did it voluntarily or not. Just so she'd get a happy ending. Just like women who did something unconventional or immoral in very old novels were in the end accepted again as members of society, and got a nice marriage and such. It's too conservative for my taste.
Or then it's some cultural thing since I see all of us Finns have complained about it.



So you would have preferred her to be bitter and twisted like Erendis? Or ended up alone and unhappy? Rather a phyrric feminist victory. Remember Tolkien was originally going to kill her off which perhaps you would have preferred - though no doubt you would claim she was being punished for not staying in her box :rolleyes:. Which is usually the fate of women who rebel in he old novels I have read - Finnish ones maybe different. Women who don't know their place come to a bad end they don't marry the man who complements them perfectly.

There is absolutely no evidence that she had to marry at all. She could have said no and gone back to Rohan. Remember she goes back to Rohan to help Eomer sort the place out - hardly a conventional role. If you want to rail against conventional women have a pop at Arwen who is passive and has to be removed from Lorien when things got nasty and who will clearly be a much more conventional wife than Eowyn. You may not like the male domination in ME - I can't say I do, but it seems mean to take it out on Eowyn.


Oh I love Galadriel but bad boys are so fascinating.

++Feanor

[Nerwen]

++Galadriel

Well, duh... who did you think I'd vote for?;)

...But actually I do think Fëanor is pretty cool... in an appalling sort of way.

[Mithalwen]

++Galadriel

Well, duh... who did you think I'd vote for?;)

...But actually I do think Fëanor is pretty cool... in an appalling sort of way.

Ah well we balance each other out.

I suppose that I just felt that in the end there wouldn't have been much of a plot without Feanor and his crazy family:D

[Nerwen]

Yeah, indeed: Finland is the notorious feminist country where women have always been at least quite equal with men and got the right to vote third in the world and first in Europe. ;)

But not before Australia, so clearly, I win.:smokin:

[Aganzir]

So you would have preferred her to be bitter and twisted like Erendis? Or ended up alone and unhappy?
To be honest, yes. I'm not a fan of happy endings. I wouldn't have minded it if she had died, either, but I don't think I'd claim she was punished for not staying in her box. Actually her death would have been the best option, in my opinion.

Women who don't know their place come to a bad end they don't marry the man who complements them perfectly.
Okay, that's what happens to some, but I bet there are at least as many books of a woman getting a happy ending despite once stepping astray. Learning to accept one's place is maybe called 'growing up', but I think it should rather be called 'getting tired of standing up against what one considers wrong'. In that sense, I don't think Éowyn learnt to accept her place, but she made the choice which was considered normal for a woman. She could have been such an extraordinary woman (once she got over her depression) but her end was simply boring.
And yes, the novels I was thinking about were mostly Finnish. ;)

There is absolutely no evidence that she had to marry at all.
I didn't mean she had to marry Faramir because she wanted to become a 'proper woman'. What I thought was rather that Tolkien wanted her to marry so she could become that and get a happy ending (in Tolkien's opinion - and I don't deny it is a happy ending, it's just not what I would like) as well, which is the thing that annoys me.

[skip spence]

A fairly comfortable win for Galadriel in the end despite falling behind early on. Fëanor, who will be fuming, is sent on the long and lonely journey back to Formenos.

Match 13 of Round 1:

Also known as Strider and Elessar, Aragorn is one of the favourites to win this tournament. He will be in for stiff competition against the legendary Elu Thingol, tallest of all the children of Illuvatar, High King of Beleriand and leader of the Sindarin Elves of Middle Earth in the first Age of Arda.

Aragorn vs. Thingol Greycloak

[Morthoron]

Thingol didnt have many redeeming qualities, did he? Other than a brief trip to the spa at Club Valinor and bagging Melian the Maia, he was pretty much a thickheaded and pompous git.

++Aragorn, because he was not a thickheaded git. Too bad there isn't much info on him using his Thorongil AKA.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I'd say
+ + Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elessar, Isildur's Heir, the Elfstone,
Strider, Telcontar...

Say what you will, he knew how to kiss up to his main squeeze's
father and especially her grandmom.

[skip spence]

++Greycloak

I find a hunky 80-year old virgin somewhat disturbing. Always did like Thingol too, a good and noble king if there ever was one.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

This is a difficult one for me, I have somewhat ambivalent feelings towards them both. I do have great sympathy for both and at times find them cool, but they can also annoy me a great deal. . . maybe I should just let others decide this one.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, Thingol was certainly a great (in the sense of importance of his person) character, but here I guess plays some role my somewhat closer inclination to LotR characters than to Silm characters (as the former seem somewhat "closer" to me, probably), and also the fact that Aragorn was a very interesting character - as I have revealed only recently. For example, I was never fully aware of his role as the leader of the company after Gandalf's death - the strongest moments actually were when he was uncertain about the future and (almost) certain about his failure - after Boromir's death. I don't like Aragorn the Returned (or Returning) King that much, but this moment makes him a lot more than just an almost-stereotypical victorious hero, or even more than just an almost-stereotypical humble victorious hero (I have in mind the episode when he enters the City unknown to heal, however I like that one, it is still a bit... well, stereotypical for me). But these doubting moments and all the time from Moria (or, actually, from Rivendell already) to Isengard are very good ones and make him feel more realistic to me. And, then, he is also the Strider.

++Aragorn

[Thinlómien]

++Aragorn

I just like him very much, especially his sense of humour. :D

Thingol is a bit annoying, though I grant him that he's no super-hero and thus relatively interesting.

[Aganzir]

I almost feel like voting Aragorn just because of how Thingol treated dwarves, but then again he's somewhat annoying as well, so I don't know. Neither of them is very close to me.

So

++Thingol

For the very simple reason that I have painted him.

Lommy do you have a tendency to bolden also character names? :p

[Thinlómien]

Lommy do you have a tendency to bolden also character names? :pAieee! :D No. I've done a "typo" like that several times on this thread but this is the first time I didn't notice it before posting... :eek:

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Aragorn

For the numerous times he's given my friends and I a laugh, imagining new and more ridiculous ways in which he might pompously declare "Lo!" or "Behold!" Thingol just wasn't as easy to poke fun at. :D

[skip spence]

:D

See, this is why I couldn't vote for him. I cringe every time he draws Andruil while crying "Elendil", especially when there seemingly is no need for it, like on the fields of Rohan when Eomer first runs across them. Now Thingol on the other hand has got dignity and class and if he were to say "Lo!" or "Behold!" he would get away with it.

I also wonder just how tall Thingol was. "The tallest of all the children of Illuvatar" he's described as. What, even today we have freakishly tall people who reach 2 1/2 metres. Was Greycloak even taller than that? And Melian, how tall was she? Now my mental image of him resembles that of an NBA star on the red carpet with his in comparison tiny wife. And Luthien their child - I always imagined her as petite.

[Lalwendë]

Thingol has one of the coolest names in Tolkien's creation of course, and he's much, much more like an Elf of Faerie than most other Elves are. He lives in this wooded/underground realm with his otherworldly wife and their beautiful daughter. He sets people up with impossible tests just like a ruler of Faerie might. He's not one of those jumped-up Noldor either who return and basically take over Beleriand.

Aragorn is a fascinating figure who we really see grow into his Kingship over the course of LotR. He might be a bit of a prig at times but he's not perfect and Gandalf knocks his corners off soon enough. He was also this interesting, mysterious Ranger for many years so he's not just some 'igh and mighty prince, but woodsy and earthy.

So that's a really tough choice...

I shall, though, pick

++Aragorn

Because Thingol wouldn't stand a chance in later rounds so he'd be a wasted vote!

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

See, this is why I couldn't vote for him. I cringe every time he draws Andruil while crying "Elendil", especially when there seemingly is no need for it, like on the fields of Rohan when Eomer first runs across them. Now Thingol on the other hand has got dignity and class and if he were to say "Lo!" or "Behold!" he would get away with it.

There's a long standing joke among my friends that Aragorn is said to have "daughters" (plural) but only one son, and this because when Eldarion was, oh, maybe three or so, every time Aragorn started something with "Lo!" the kid immediately piped up with "And Behold!" Not wanting to appear abusive for smacking his son and heir when this became too annoying to bear, he simply made up his mind to have no more sons, since girls were so much better behaved. :p;)

For me, though, voting for Thingol would feel like nepotism, since I'd feel like I was voting for my husband, who is also tall and silver-haired. :D

[skip spence]

^Wow, you and your friends have active imaginations, Ibrin. :)

Behold! Aragorn has prevailed with 6 votes to 2 and advances to the second round.

Match 14 of Round 1:

Now something for the ladies: Legolas, the fair-haired surfer dude from Mirkwood, has finally entered the competition. The question is whether he will remain in it because his opponent is none other than Samwise Gamgee.

Legolas vs. Sam

[Morthoron]

++Sam.

I voted for his old man, so I'll stick with the Gamgee clan. Sam is a great character and his asides are priceless.

In addition, this is definitely a vote against Legolas, or rather, what Legolas has become primarily due to the movies. This is an anti-Orlando vote, a vote against bleach blonde, contact-wearing, wooden-acting, shield surfing pretty boys everywhere.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Oh man. . . I have to vote Legolas, because I really find Sam annoying.
Also I cannote help feeling sympathy for Legolas, after spending this long on this site with all you Legolas haters.

++Legolas

[Groin Redbeard]

Oh man. . . I have to vote Legolas, because I really find Sam annoying.
Also I cannote help feeling sympathy for Legolas, after spending this long on this site with all you Legolas haters.Blame it on Orlando Bloom.;)

I really like Sam's character, Tolkien does a wonderful job of making him in the image of the ordinary man. In some sense, Sam is the true hero of Lord of the Rings.

++Sam

[skip spence]

Movie Legolas may be annoying but book Legolas is something worse, he's boring. Having lived for millennia he still has no stories to tell and no advice to give. Sam on the other hand is a well crafted character through and through, one of Tolkien's best. His puppy love for Frodo annoys me a bit too but that's okay, I still love him.

++Sam

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Since they both annoy me, I will have to vote

++Legolas

(dark haired, not blond :D) because I like his poetry better. It was fun setting it to music, especially the Song of Nimrodel. :)

And skip, I don't think it's so much that we have active imaginations as that we listened to old Bill Cosby routines too much. This "lo and behold" thing was doubtless inspired by one of his childhood reminisces about his mother's use of "sick and tired" and how he got smacked for finishing the phrase for her at the wrong time. :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I feel like voting for Legolas just to counter all the anti-legolism, because I think (and I see that on myself, at least!) people started to dislike Legolas really after the movies: most people won't mind that much, probably, if there had not been for the movies. (What does it mean? Yes, of course! Another proof that PJ and all the deed of his blasphemy must be erased from the face of this earth!)

Legolas indeed tends to be boring, in a similar way like Gimli: sometimes, you get the impression that they are there just to "fit in the number of nine". However, his dreams, behavior; sometimes his sayings, songs and poetry, as Ibri said, are actually quite interesting. But Sam, of course, is great character and we see lot of his development, I think it's unnecessary to go on lengths about him here.

Hmm. I will re-think it yet before I vote.

[Strongbow]

Let's see Legolas go to Mordor.

++Sam

[Thinlómien]

++Legolas

Boring? No way. He's funny. And Gimli is not boring either. After Frodo, Aragorn and Gandalf, they must be the funniest members of the fellowship. I won't talk about Gimli here, but Legolas, he's so amusing. His criticism of Aragorn's deductions from Merry & Pippin's track always amuses me, especially the part about growing wings and flying. It's exactly like I feel when someone presents a theory I don't understand. :D

Besides, there is some great sadness and ambiguosity in Legolas' character - even androgynism, I always pause when he refers to Éowyn as a maiden because to me it's always a point of thinking: "oh, he's a man". :D (This is not to say that I would assume him to be a woman or anything as silly, but simply, I see him as rather genderless. Which is very interesting, if you ask me.)

Sam, on the other hand... I used to like him and I still think he's rather sympathetic, and I love his song in Cirith Ungol... But I think I'm currently living a phase when I'm looking at the values behind LotR rather critically, and Sam as a character makes me rather sad and a little angry. Such a dog-like servant, really. Brave, good-natured, a little slow-witted and incredibly loyal. Blah.

[Andsigil]

Sam, on the other hand... I used to like him and I still think he's rather sympathetic, and I love his song in Cirith Ungol... But I think I'm currently living a phase when I'm looking at the values behind LotR rather critically, and Sam as a character makes me rather sad and a little angry. Such a dog-like servant, really. Brave, good-natured, a little slow-witted and incredibly loyal. Blah.

Sam is a direct reflection of Tolkien's own philosophy on society. I put the bits I thought relevant to Sam in bold font.

His view of the world, in which each man belonged or ought to belong to a specific 'estate', whether high or low, meant that in one sense he was an old-fashioned conservative. But in another sense it made him highly sympathetic to his fellow-men, for it is those who are unsure of their status in the world, who feel they have to prove themselves and if necessary put down other men to do so, who are the truly ruthless. Tolkien was, in modern jargon, 'right-wing' in that he honoured his monarch and his country and did not believe in the rule of the people; but he opposed democracy simply because he believed that in the end his fellow-men would not benefit from it. He once wrote: 'I am not a "democrat", if only because humility and equality are spiritual principles corrupted by the attempt to mechanize and formalize them, with the result that we get not universal smallness and humility, but universal greatness and pride, till some Orc gets hold of a ring of power- and then we get and are getting slavery.' As to the virtues of an old-fashioned feudal society, this is what he once said about respect for one's superiors: 'Touching your cap to the Squire may be damn bad for the Squire, but it's damn good for you'.

Taken from J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography, by Humphrey Carpenter, pg 133.

[Lalwendë]

Oh man. . . I have to vote Legolas, because I really find Sam annoying.
Also I cannote help feeling sympathy for Legolas, after spending this long on this site with all you Legolas haters.

++Legolas

Rune! How could you! You have a chance to vote for one of the proletariat and you vote for one of the landed gentry? :eek:

;)

I love Sam, he's no mindless servant of Frodo, but a family friend, someone younger who looks up to Frodo. He's an idealist and he goes off on this journey both because he's Frodo's young friend and because he's entirely overawed by the prospect of seeing things straight out of Faerie. Sam is just like every single reader of Lord of the Rings, blindly giving his trust to the older, 'wiser' friend (i.e. Tolkien in our case) and willing to be led off on this mad quest to who-knows-where.

Plus he likes a beer.

++Sam

[Tuor in Gondolin]

While Legolas can skateboard down fortresses
steps Sam does a terrific impression of a great elf warrior,
so + + Samwise

[skip spence]

Sam is a direct reflection of Tolkien's own philosophy on society. I put the bits I thought relevant to Sam in bold font.

His view of the world, in which each man belonged or ought to belong to a specific 'estate', whether high or low, meant that in one sense he was an old-fashioned conservative. But in another sense it made him highly sympathetic to his fellow-men, for it is those who are unsure of their status in the world, who feel they have to prove themselves and if necessary put down other men to do so, who are the truly ruthless. Tolkien was, in modern jargon, 'right-wing' in that he honoured his monarch and his country and did not believe in the rule of the people; but he opposed democracy simply because he believed that in the end his fellow-men would not benefit from it. He once wrote: 'I am not a "democrat", of only because humility" and equality are spiritual principles corrupted by the attempt to mechanize and formalize them, with the result that we get not universal smallness and humility, but universal greatness and pride, till some Orc gets hold of a ring of power- and then we get and are getting slavery.' As to the virtues of an old-fashioned feudal society, this is what he once said about respect for one's superiors: 'Touching your cap to the Squire may be damn bad for the Squire, but it's damn good for you'.

Taken from J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography, by Humphrey Carpenter, pg 133.

That's interesting and I partly sympathise with the prof's opinions - the problem with democracy truly is that people are morons who don't know what's good for themselves (and won't agree with me more importantly). Then again, the alternatives are so much worse; Churchill's famous words on the subject immediately come too mind. To say that every man should be content with his lot is easy to do for an Oxford professor too, eh? But I don't want to steer this too far off-topic here. Care to vote, sir?