Middle-earth Bad Popularity Cup

[Tuor in Gondolin]

How about a contest along the lines of the esteemed
Middle Earth popularity Cup ?
===========================================
Voting rules:
Voting could be allowed to continue for approx. 24 hours. If there's a tie then the earlier vote getting to the tie would be the tiebreaker.
===========================================

I'd suggest considerations for voting be along the lines of a beauty
pageant. WHAT! Well, I mean to consider various aspects of the characters.
For example, when I used to watch some of it, the Miss America pageant
had talent (but then so does Miss Alaska- Sarah Palin plays a flute :D ),
swimsuit competition, and at one time questions. So you might
consider a)fighting prowess b)"personality" c)survival intelligence (think
Odysseus) while voting. Thus, it's not INCONCEIVABLE (assuming that word means what you think) to choose, say, Bert over the Watcher in the Water.
============================================
I'll wait a while to see if there are suggestions to add/replace
the candidates below. Btw, Ungoliant and balrogs weren't included
since it seemed they might be too puisant (but I'm open to
additions/changes).
============================================
(5) Ancalagon the Black vs. Carcharoth (7)
(4)King of the Dead vs. Eol (4)
(6) Scatha the Worm vs. Shelob (3)
(3) the white cats (of Queen Beruthiel) vs. Tom (7)

(7) Smaug vs. Drauglin (2)
(3) Old Man Willow vs. Master of Laketown (3)
(4) Maeglin vs. The Witch King (8)
(3)Watcher in the Water vs. Sauron (5)

(2) The Black Cat (of Queen Beruthiel) vs. Ar-Pharazon (6)
(6) Glaurung vs. Thuringwethil (2)
(2) Golfimbul vs. Bill Ferny (7)
(1) The Great Goblin vs. William (6)

(2) Gorbag vs. Shagrat (3)
(5) Grima Wormtongue vs. Queen Beruthiel (3)
(2) Bolg vs. Morgoth (7)
(4) Azog vs. Grishnakh (2)

Well, here's the revised list.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, that sounds nice. But won't it be best if we just voted for whom we like more? :)

[skip spence]

An evil spawn of the popularity thread. Nice.

After a quick glance in an online dictionary, it is my opinion that a few puisant characters wouldn't be out of place at all. Therefore I'm in favour of the inclusion of Morgoth, Sauron, The Witch King, Ungoliant etc. as long as we don't have to picture them in a swimming suit that is. Maybe there should be room for an Elvish bad boy as well, like Maeglin or his daddy Eöl the Dark Elf? And the Mouth of Sauron perhaps?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Well, that sounds nice. But won't it be best if we just voted for whom we like more?

That works for me.


After a quick glance in an online dictionary, it is my opinion that a few puisant characters wouldn't be out of place at all. Therefore I'm in favour of the inclusion of Morgoth, Sauron, The Witch King, Ungoliant etc. as long as we don't have to picture them in a swimming suit that is. Maybe there should be room for an Elvish bad boy as well, like Maeglin or his daddy Eöl the Dark Elf? And the Mouth of Sauron perhaps?

Okay. I'm working for a bit but will adjust candidates (except that I have to
keep Rosenkrantz and Gildenstern (Gorbag and Shagrat) in.

P.S. I forgot about that wild and crazy father-son duo.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

(5) Ancalagon the Black vs. Carcharoth (7)
(4) King of the Dead vs. Eol (4)
(6) Scatha the Worm vs. Shelob (3)
(3) the white cats (of Queen Beruthiel) vs. Tom (7)

(7) Smaug vs. Drauglin (2)
(3) Old Man Willow vs. Master of Laketown (3)
(4) Maeglin vs. The Witch King (8)
(3) Watcher in the Water vs. Sauron (5)

(2) The Black Cat (of Queen Beruthiel) vs. Ar-Pharazon (6)
(6) Glaurung vs. Thuringwethil (2)
(2) Golfimbul vs. Bill Ferny (7)
(1) The Great Goblin vs. William (6)

(2) Gorbag vs. Shagrat (3)
(5) Grima Wormtongue vs. Queen Beruthiel (3)
(2) Bolg vs. Morgoth (7)
(4) Azog vs. Grishnakh (2)

Well, here's the revised list.
First up, in this rather dark popularity contest:

Ancalagon the Black vs. Carcharoth

Voting is open into Friday morning, since this is
being posted P.M. Eastern Standard Time.

Oh, and of course, voting should be done with 2 +s and bold captions.
ex. + + The Great Goblin

[Morthoron]

++ Ancalagon the Black

A dragon unfairly relegated to a paragraph. Love the name.

[Nerwen]

++Carcharoth.

How else do you expect a Werewolf player to vote?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I tend to agree with Morthonon about
the worm's cool name, but then again
Carcharoth , in more ways then one,
had an interesting appetite, first elf and
man protein and then a simaril...which of course
led to a great Beren putdown of Thengol.
This will take some thought.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

When it comes to asking me, while I agree with Morth about Calak's name, I think Carcharoth's name is also pretty cool. It exactly expresses what it means (okay, well, Tolkien was the linguist here, so it's not exactly the poor beast's doing), but again, he is nice.

++Carcharoth, the cute little dog... wrrau

I have to say, this is good for the opening match - because as far as I look, further on, there will be some of my favourites for whom I will fight to my death!!!

Yay, people, actually, I maybe like this game more than WW :D

:rolleyes: Okay...

But hey, why not? :cool: Is there something bad about it? Thread like a thread.

[Aganzir]

++Carcharoth

Werewolves are cool, dragons are not.

[Andsigil]

++Carcharoth.

Ancalagon died from a Silmaril (we think). Carcharoth died from a Silmaril and the teeth and claws of Huan.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Yes. Sorry about the dragon, but there are some
more candidates, including one with a rather
biting sense of humor. :cool:

+ + Carcharoth

[A Little Green]

Werewolves are cool, dragons are not.The exact opposite for me. Werewolves are cool only in dark Transilvanian forests. Dragons are cool wherever they are.

++ Ancalagon the Black

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The exact opposite for me. Werewolves are cool only in dark Transilvanian forests. Dragons are cool wherever they are.

That's true - Dragons are cool. However, old Carkey is still better for me than old Ankey, most of all probably because I know basically nothing about old Ankey except that he existed. Okay, when I try to imagine him, he might have been really cool - especially if he was really black and spitting some nicely-coloured flames (red, then green, or even blue)... But in general, as with Dragons, the Dragon I liked the most was Smaug. Then Scatha. Then Glaurung, who had a fascinating personality (literally), however he was a stupid and lame worm (both the adjectives emphasising the word "worm". It's not that he would be stupid or anything, and it was Brandir who was lame around there). Dragons need wings! (in contrary to some other flame-using creatures I might recall) Calkie, like I said, was given too little space (although sometimes it rouses one's imagination when you just hear very little about somebody, but this was not the case). Too bad for him.

Perhaps he will find himself more popularity elsewhere. Long live for your washing machine - your Calgon!

[skip spence]

Ancalagon is completely useless. Morgoth must've been fuming at his incompetence. Despite being a monstrous fire-spitting dragon big enough to annihilate Thangorodrim when crashing down on them he's still not able to incinerate a flying ship presumably made of wood.

So, ++ Carcaroth

I like the idea that Morgoth's fortress is guarded by a bad-*** guard dog. It seems fitting somehow.

And Legate, I would think Scatha was flightless as well, being a "worm" much like Glaurung.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ancalagon is completely useless. Morgoth must've been fuming at his incompetence. Despite being a monstrous fire-spitting dragon big enough to annihilate Thangorodrim when crashing down on them he's still not able to incinerate a flying ship presumably made of wood.
I would not be so judging - at least when it comes to the ship. Wasn't the ship supposed to be made of mithril? That would defend poor Lakky a little.

And Legate, I would think Scatha was flightless as well, being a "worm" much like Glaurung.

Oh yes, he was. But he was cool, and he was more snakelike, I think. Or lizard-like, in the sense of this agile lizard. Glaurung was big and slooow.

[Mithalwen]

++Carcharoth

Werewolves are cool, dragons are not.

Surely that depends on whether the dragon were a cold-drake or a fire-drake - and on the werewolf. Some werewolves are inherently cooler than others :cool:

[the phantom]

I somehow believe that if Ancalagon wins this, Christopher Tolkien will suddenly find a page of notes detailing how he was the biggest baddest dragon ever, and how he drove back the forces of the Valar but was somehow slain by a lucky cheap-shot from Earendil.

It's worth a shot, right?

++Ancalagon

[Thinlómien]

I don't actually like either of them very much. I know too little of Ancalagon to like or dislike him and Carcharoth is kind of cool but he also always kind of annoyed me because he struck me as a rather stupid animal.

[Macalaure]

Ancalagan and Carcharoth meet in the first round? Inconceivable! I call the seeding system into question! :p

This is a tough one indeed. Both dragons and werewolves are pretty darn cool, and Ancalagon and Carcharoth represent the top notch of each species. I think I'll go with

++Carcharoth.

He at least has some character.

[Aganzir]

Surely that depends on whether the dragon were a cold-drake or a fire-drake - and on the werewolf. Some werewolves are inherently cooler than others :cool:
Nope, for me it doesn't. I don't like dragons in general.

Ancalagan and Carcharoth meet in the first round? Inconceivable! I call the seeding system into question! :p
Don't complain - skippy was much more evil. :p

[Andsigil]

I would not be so judging - at least when it comes to the ship. Wasn't the ship supposed to be made of mithril? That would defend poor Lakky a little.

It was made OF.... (drum roll).... birch from Nimbrethil (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/n/nimbrethil.html).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

It was made OF.... (drum roll).... birch from Nimbrethil (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/n/nimbrethil.html).

Hmm, I would not be so sure. At least according to the source I have in mind:

Eärendil was a mariner
that tarried in Arvernien;
he built a boat of timber felled
in Nimbrethil to journey in

as you say, HOWEVER:

A ship then new they built for him
of mithril and of elven-glass
with shining prow; no shaven oar
nor sail she bore on silver mast:
the Silmaril as lantern light
and banner bright with living flame
to gleam thereon by Elbereth
herself was set, who thither came
and wings immortal made for him,
and laid on him undying doom,
to sail the shoreless skies and come
behind the Sun and light of Moon.

[Eönwë]

I never really liked Carcharoth (and the first time I read his name I was reminded of a Great White Shark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_white_shark), which I think is overrated too).

++Ancalagon

[Nogrod]

Oh, this is soo wrong!

But anyway, let's gather under the banner of Ancalagon the Black! Everyone! It's the last stand!

++ Ancalagon

Werewolf is a game, dragons are for real! ;)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

By Macalaure
Ancalagan and Carcharoth meet in the first round? Inconceivable! I call the seeding system into question!

Hee , Hee! Actually, pretty much deliberate. I tend to
not like seedings like in the NCAA's basketball tournament,
where you get too many mismatches early. Besides, this
way Golfimbul or Bill Ferny get to advance. :D

Well, looking ahead I have to go now to check out
101 Things to do with Dead Cats.

Oh wait! What if the cats win!

So far
Carcharoth 7
Ancalagon 5

[Andsigil]

Hmm, I would not be so sure. At least according to the source I have in mind:



as you say, HOWEVER:

Aha. Thanks. I had forgotten about that.

[Eönwë]

But anyway, let's gather under the banner of Ancalagon the Black! Everyone! It's the last stand!

Hear ye! Hear ye all!

[Nogrod]

As it surprisingly looks like the voting round is not over, then let me specify my call why you all should vote for Ancalagon by just rephrasing my earlier one.

Werefolves are game, humans (and elves, and...) are game to the dragons...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

As Nogrod correctly notes, it's been over one day
voting, since I started a bit early, and since there would need to
be three more votes for the worm to prevail, so
voting seems over now, therefore the final for the first bout is

Carcharoth 7
Ancalagon 5

Ancalagon was heard to fume:
"Youz ain't seen the last of us drakes.
Wait until me mates from Erebor
and Thangorodrim gets here.
We hates werewolves, we hates 'em forever!"

Next round (one day to vote, I'll try to be more on time):
King of the Dead vs. Eol

On their plus sides Eol listened to his mum, and the
King of the Dead, he, ah.............

[Morthoron]

No equivocations here...

++Eol

One of the most complex and intriguing characters of the Silmarillion, and far more interesting than those prissy Noldor.

[Thinlómien]

Eöl was a jerk, but at least he managed to produce a few cool swords and a cool son. ;)

King of the Dead, well, he's kind of cool but there's too little of him for him to really make an impression. And after his horrible performance in the movies, I'm not sure I could be persuaded to vote him. :p

Looks like another round of no-voting for me...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Eöl was not actually a character I would like. He was... weird. He was one of these disgusting dotards from the Sil (by the others, I am thinking about Húrin, for example ;) - when he returned back from Angband). He was something like Denethor (the Steward).

The King of the Dead is disgraced in my eyes - by his portrayal in the movies. But hey! I am certain he did not look like that, he was neither green (not even a little... bah, this joke is getting a bit too common to be funny), nor a transparent skeleton with eyes like Cpt. Barbossa (in fact, they all look like the undead Pirates from Caribbean).

But as I wanted to be objective, I have read all the places where I thought there might be something about him in particular, and when it comes to his looks, I think I might quite like him. He had a spear, obviously.
And thereupon the King of the Dead stood out before the host and broke his spear and cast it down. Then he bowed low and turned away; and swiftly the whole grey host drew off and vanished like a mist that is driven back by a sudden wind; and it seemed to me that I awoke from a dream.

But otherwise:
I see shapes of Men and of horses, and pale banners like shreds of cloud, and spears like winter-thickets on a misty night.
I will tell you enough for your peace; for I felt not the horror, and I feared not the shadows of Men, powerless and frail as I deemed them.

Hmm. I think I could vote the King of the Dead. Also because his past was quite cool (these Men of the White Mountains), and also, I think it may be a little compensation for what PJ did to that poor guy in the movies... :mad:

[Andsigil]

++Eol- one of the greatest smiths of all time.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Eol is an interesting character, but he made
a series of wrong decisions, including a semi-forced marriage.
Whereas the King of the Dead made one decision
(arguably a rational one) to not join in an attack against
a maia with a potent army and subsequently he and his
people suffered centuries of mental torment. He seems
more sympathetic, so I think I'll go along with the
thinking of the Legate of Amon Lanc and help
rehabilitate PJ's green slime:

+ + King of the Dead

Oh, and he did freak out that drunken cheeky Rohan noble. :eek:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh, and he did freak out that drunken cheeky Rohan noble. :eek:

That's quite true. Yea, so:

++ King of the Dead

Besides, the way he was before he was cursed, he reminds me of Nazgul before they became Wraiths - I mean, like, when they were still living Men. I always liked this idea of what they may have been during their lives.

[skip spence]

That whole Army of the Dead thing I like to ignore, pretending it didn't exist. It's silly and my least favourite part of the whole trilogy.

Eöl the Dark Elf is great though with his webs of enchantment, bad boy persona and frequent visits to Nogrod and Belegost. No wonder The White Lady fell for him after a life among the priggish Noldor. I wish there were more info on him.

++Eöl

Don't complain - skippy was much more evil.

Hey now, I'm just a victim of inevitable consequences or ill-fated coincidences. Besides, did I ever beat up puppy-dogs or rob old ladies? That's right, I didn't!

[Nogrod]

Eöl was a jerk, but at least he managed to produce a few cool swords and a cool son. ;)My words as well...

Now, how about we throw both these contestants away and bring Ancalagon back? That would be fair.

[Nogrod]

I'm also attaching myself to Skip here:
That whole Army of the Dead thing I like to ignore, pretending it didn't exist. It's silly and my least favourite part of the whole trilogy.
In the movie-version the army of the dead was just an annoying Deus ex machina, but it was something like that in the books as well. Using a Finnish expression, it was "glued over" the story eg. not an inherent part of it.

I thought the army of the dead cool and great at twelve but from that on I've learned better...

So for me it will be

++ Eöl

Even if I would actually vote for Ancalagon over Eöl at any moment, without hesitation... :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm also attaching myself to Skip here:
In the movie-version the army of the dead was just an annoying Deus ex machina, but it was something like that in the books as well. Using a Finnish expression, it was "glued over" the story eg. not an inherent part of it.

Nonsense! Why is it so bad? Come on, it was foreseen there and all sorts of these things, what would you like to have, four and half Dúnedain arriving from the North just to make the army of Rohirrim four and half men stronger, for no particular reason, much like the so-called Elves in the movie at Helm's Deep? Bah! The Oathbreakers were cool, and this Grey Company, although it never interested me, to be honest, as there's really hardly anything about their doings in the books, fits there. Imagine Gimli and Legolas charging onto the Mordor armies on Pelennor along with the Rohirrim. Impossible! The whole passage through the Paths of the Dead, and dealing with the Corsairs was quite good - and it would have been probably even better if we could learn more of it there, true. I think the problem of it being deus-ex-machinish is just in that there was too little space given to this episode (of course, the book is not inflatable, or at least should not be, unlike many other, especially fantasy books we can see today), so it had to be sort of cut short: Dead came, Corsairs are finished. One or two pages of maneuvering around Pelargir would have been good as well. But actually, when I read that part now, I am quite content even with this way of using it.

That's not to say anything of Ancalagon. I would have probably chosen him over Eöl as well. But there surely will be enough dragons... (and just as Nogrod said, they are for real. Quite. :) )

[A Little Green]

frequent visits to Nogrod(Okay, sorry, that bolding was mine - just couldn't resist. :p)

Now to business - the fact is, Eöl is a horrible pig, and though he did produce a cool son it's the son who is cool and not him. He's one of the most disgusting people Tolkien ever invented. Now The King of the Dead, as Tolkien describes him, is fascinating and beautiful. I like him. (No, I don't like that little green Barbossa-impersonator, he's baaad.)

So:

++ King of the Dead

[Nogrod]

Nonsense! Why is it so bad? Come on, it was foreseen there and all sorts of these things, what would you like to have, four and half Dúnedain arriving from the North just to make the army of Rohirrim four and half men stronger
...
Imagine Gimli and Legolas charging onto the Mordor armies on Pelennor along with the Rohirrim. Impossible!
That's just to the point! They were losing and they were losing badly. So the Deus ex machina comes to save them all!

And on the contrary I always found this grey company the most intriguing thing... something I would have loved to read more about - just like lord Imrahil and all these South-Gondorians. One could have made a heroic standing with those as well but it would still have meant defeat I'm afraid... and you can't end the story without the good guys winning now can you? :rolleyes:

So let's come up with a whole army unforeseen to anyone who will make the difference in the battle at tyhe last minute? Now what was the definition of the Deus ex machina again? :D

I'm yet not convinced...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Several hours left to vote. So far

Eol 4
KotD 3

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Now to business - the fact is, Eöl is a horrible pig
Oh, I couldn't have phrased that better, sis :smokin: :cool:

That's just to the point! They were losing and they were losing badly. So the Deus ex machina comes to save them all!

And on the contrary I always found this grey company the most intriguing thing... something I would have loved to read more about - just like lord Imrahil and all these South-Gondorians. One could have made a heroic standing with those as well but it would still have meant defeat I'm afraid... and you can't end the story without the good guys winning now can you?

So let's come up with a whole army unforeseen to anyone who will make the difference in the battle at tyhe last minute? Now what was the definition of the Deus ex machina again?

Now actually you bring up something interesting, which would, however, almost be for a separate thread. You made me think what if the Dead did not come out and Aragorn would have stormed Pelargir just with several Lamedonians... the main problem would be still that the Corsairs would, as soon as possible, have left to the North anyway... but I thought it would have been far more cool if they started to wreak havoc around the Southern Gondor, and after the battle at Pelennor (which would have been likely a bit more disasterous, although still possible of being victorious), there will be no march to the Black Gate, but everybody would have needed to pack their stuff and go to liberate Pelargir and all the southern provinces... intriguing, I say.

And speaking of South Gondorians, this captain of theirs had a cool name - Angbor. Now that's a guy I would have liked to hear more about...

But here we are going off-topic :)

But come on, people - a few hours still left, doesn't anyone vote for the King of the Dead? He is nice! He has a spear! And is scaring young Rohanian princes to death! Come on!

[Groin Redbeard]

Now to business - the fact is, Eöl is a horrible pig, and though he did produce a cool son it's the son who is cool and not him. I couldn't agree more!:smokin:

The King of the Dead produced the best, and most memorable, part of The Return of the King! He was even feared by a Dwarf:eek:, now that's saying something. Anyone who can make a Gimli quake in his boots has got my vote.:cool:

++The King of the Dead

[Tuor in Gondolin]

With less then an hour to go the contst
is on a knife's edge. 4-4 now, but
Eol will win this tie.
Tick. Tick. Tick.

And about the counetrfactual fiction/history
above, for JRRT's concept I think Aragorn
has to come in from the south. Without the
written narrative it might be something like
Aragorn's (book) company fighting their
way through (with Strider actually dispatching
the KotD) and then rallying the South
Gondorians, who would of course have to
have enough of a navy to take over the
Corsairs fleet. In some ways a more satisfactory
plot then the somewhat deux ex machina
(and it might have dissuaded PJ from
the invasion of the green slime at Minsas Tirith).

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Eol 4
KotD 4
Eol wins a tiebreaker! (Won't his dad be proud?)

Next:
Scatha the Worm vs. Shelob in what could be
another long night for dragon power.

[Morthoron]

Perhaps, like Ancalagon the Black, it is because of the dearth of information on Scatha that makes the dragon intriguing, or dragons are just interesting in and of themselves. In any case, this is yet another Tolkien character that got only a passing mention, but for whom I'd love to hear a more fleshed-out tale. Shelob? Meh, just an arachnid bully eating orcses and little hobbits if she can get them. She's nothing like her great-grandma Ungoliant, who made even Morgoth tremble.

++Scatha the Worm

Eol wins a tiebreaker! (Won't his dad be proud?)

Eol had a dad? Hmmm...I believe, like Thingol, he was among the Firstborn.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

And about the counetrfactual fiction/history
above, for JRRT's concept I think Aragorn
has to come in from the south. Without the
written narrative it might be something like
Aragorn's (book) company fighting their
way through (with Strider actually dispatching
the KotD) and then rallying the South
Gondorians, who would of course have to
have enough of a navy to take over the
Corsairs fleet. In some ways a more satisfactory
plot then the somewhat deux ex machina
(and it might have dissuaded PJ from
the invasion of the green slime at Minsas Tirith).
Counterfactual history, now you got it, sir ;)

Okay, just briefly - not to be off-topic too much - this won't work anyway, otherwise, it will be far better for the South Gondorians to just send more troops to Minas Tirith in the first place (seeing that they have enough men themselves to cope with the Corsairs), in which case, the battle will be obviously victorious for Minas Tirith in the first place. But we needed this typical "our heroes look like they will be obviously doomed" and then this sudden turn of the tide. And this was only possible if the Corsairs were stronger. And this again needed some reinforcements to come. And the Dead were still quite a smooth way to do that, I can't think of anything better now (like I said, Elves from Lórien won't do...).

Perhaps, like Ancalagon the Black, it is because of the dearth of information on Scatha that makes the dragon intriguing, or dragons are just interesting in and of themselves. In any case, this is yet another Tolkien character that got only a passing mention, but for whom I'd love to hear a more fleshed-out tale.
Yes, unlike Ancalagon the Black, perhaps because the lack of information, Scatha is intriguing. I like him. He was nice. I liked him very "early" - short after I read LotR for the first time. He was a cold-drake, but that does not prevent him from being cool, quite the opposite :) And he was killed by a man from Éotheod, now isn't that great?

++Scatha

Eol had a dad? Hmmm...I believe, like Thingol, he was among the Firstborn.
I think Tuor had his son in mind.

[Thinlómien]

++Shelob

Scatha has a cool name and he reminds me of old legends like Beowulf, but I've got to be feminist and vote Shelob. ;):p

[skip spence]

I love dragons but there's just not enough info on Scatha for me to vote for him. I mean, the only adjective you could use describing him is "dead".

++Shelob

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Shelob

P. S. Also, a change, like the dragons there are
a surfeit of trolls, so if there are no
objections I've replaced Bert with the
mayor of Laketown (Tolkien's literary
cautionary tale of democracy? :) )

P.P.S. Saruman wasn't included.
Should he be given a second chance even though
he disappointed in Skip's tournament?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

P. S. Also, a change, like the dragons there are
a surfeit of trolls, so if there are no
objections I've replaced Bert with the
mayor of Laketown (Tolkien's literary
cautionary tale of democracy? :) )
Yes! Now that sounds good. Although, isn't it unfair for Bert to be outed when Tom and Bill are around? At least I like him more than Tom. I say, you shouldn't make too many changes in the lists anyway... let it be as it is... but of course, for this one minor change...

P.P.S. Saruman wasn't included.
Should he be given a second chance even though
he disappointed in Skip's tournament?

Well, you know, I wouldn't do so. I think it will be quite unfair to the others. He will be too much different from most of those who are here, and he's been in one tournament already, and also... he is not bad, he is good :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Scatha has a cool name and he reminds me of old legends like Beowulf, but I've got to be feminist and vote Shelob.

Hey, but what if Scatha was a she? Now wouldn't that be even cooler than some silly spider? ;)

Speaking of silly spiders: why were not Lazy Lob and Crazy Cob inculded? They were cuute!

[Thinlómien]

Hey, but what if Scatha was a she? Now wouldn't that be even cooler than some silly spider? ;)His name sounds masculine, except that it resembles Scathatch (aiee not spelt that way, I know :D).

But I always kind of liked Shelob anyway.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

His name sounds masculine, except that it resembles Scathatch (aiee not spelt that way, I know :D).
What? Sasquatch?

[Thinlómien]

What? Sasquatch?Nope, Scáthatch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scathatch). ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nope, Scáthatch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scathatch). ;)

I have to confess, a Hobbit? Neverr heard aabout ahobbit befoore... (too bad. Too bad.)

Nevertheless, I always liked what happened to Scatha's teeth - also pretty cool story.

And speaking of Scáthatch, I started to wonder about the etymology of Scatha's name - is it possible that it had something to do with "Shadow", after all, too? Or did Tolkien say anything more? Was it supposed to reflect the language of the Éotheod, who were, after all, the ones who encountered him? Okay, I see I would be starting another thread again...

[Eönwë]

I vote

++Scatha
I would vote for Ungoliant, but not Shelob. And dragons are amazing!

[Andsigil]

++Scatha, because he would eat Shelob for a snack.

[the phantom]

They're both big and bad.

We know more about Shelob, so I'll vote for her.

But no, Scatha could probably burn her up. I'll vote for him.

But wait, that whole Shelob bit in LotR is so memorable. I'll vote for her.

But gah- dragons are cool, and spiders are creepy and gross. I'll vote for him.

*flips coin*

++Scatha

[Nogrod]

Going with the flow for a change... and agreeing with Eonwë and Andsigil... and the phantom as well with the indecisiveness.

So I've made up my mind.

++ Scatha

It was an outrageous thing to call Ancalagon off so let's see the dragons prevail even once!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

In stunning news to the arachnid world
Scatha the Worm ousted heavy
favorite Shelob 6-3, raising the
real possibility of three dragons in the
Sweet Sixteen, although both Smaug
and the Father of Dragons (makes you
wonder who the mother was :eek: ) will
face some stiff competition.

Next match:
the White Cats (of Queen Beruthiel) vs. Tom
(can a hoard of cats take out a troll obviously
born within the sound of Bow Bells ?

[A Little Green]

The cats of Queen Beruthiel must be among the most intriguing barely-mentioned stories included in the LotR. I would have loved to know more about them. Besides, cats are wonderful creatures. I adore them. So:

++ the White Cats

And I have to comment on the off-topic discussion going on here: the Army of the Dead was essential for getting rid of the Corsairs, but what were the Corsairs for? Tolkien could have left them out if he had wanted to, with no serious damage to his plot.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

And I have to comment on the off-topic discussion going on here: the Army of the Dead was essential for getting rid of the Corsairs, but what were the Corsairs for? Tolkien could have left them out if he had wanted to, with no serious damage to his plot.
Well, they were there in order to make Sauron's armies being stronger than Gondor, and disallowing Minas Tirith getting all reinforcements it could - so that somebody may come and save it all with sudden change of winds, just like Aragorn did with the Dead :D So, you see, it's a sort of infinite circle.

Anyway - to the task at hand - while Tom is, of all the three trolls, the most stupid (in my opinion, and now thinking not about the intellect, but about the general behavior) and the one I really don't like much, still, he is a Troll, and I like him more than the cats. I am not a huge fan of the tale of the cats, I never found it particularly interesting. Not at all, in fact. I am also voting him a bit as a deputy of his fellow Bert, who, unfortunately, did not make it among the candidates. So,

++Tom the Troll

(I hope everybody understands that Tuor meant this one, and not the other fella with the same name and yellow boots ;) Hey, isn't it interesting how some names reoccur, a pity we don't have two Berts as well...)

[Morthoron]

++Tom the Troll

Although I think William and Bert should have been included as a trio, sort of the Three Stooges of Middle-earth. Soitanly, nyuk-nyuk-nyuk!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Although I think William and Bert should have been included as a trio, sort of the Three Stooges of Middle-earth. Soitanly, nyuk-nyuk-nyuk!

Soitenly!
Tom (definitely not Tom Bombadil):
"Bert, William, the cheese!"
"Bert, William, the cheese!"

[Andsigil]

Cats??? Please...

++Tom the Troll, all the way. I can't wait to see the trio of trolls in "The Hobbit" film. :smokin:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I can't wait to see the trio of trolls in "The Hobbit" film. :smokin:
Now you actually made me worry a lot. If they are going to look like that tortoise from FotR, or more likely, like Shrek, or in either case, they will be some sort of horrible CG thing... eww. Another good reason not to expect the Hobbit movie.

If they at least found a tall and fat actor and put some mask on him... but not CG, it looks so horrible and overdone...

[Eönwë]

++Tom
A cat?
A cat?
A cat?
Shh... it's only a model.

[skip spence]

If they at least found a tall and fat actor and put some mask on him... but not CG, it looks so horrible and overdone...

Agreed. An actor with a nice paint job would be much better than anything they will accomplish with CG. That said, don't be overly pessimistic. It might just become a decent enough movie, who can tell?

++Tom

[Eönwë]

I've just realised... no Ungwë Lianti... I mean... Ungoliant?

[Nogrod]

Going with the flow for a change... and agreeing with Eonwë and Andsigil... and the phantom as well with the indecisiveness.

So I've made up my mind.

++ Scatha

It was an outrageous thing to call Ancalagon off so let's see the dragons prevail even once!Oh my! That was my 5000th post! And I missed any celebrations! :(

But to the topic.

I like cats as well as Greenie but c'mon there's no question on this one

++ Tom

But I would like to wonder about the sanity (or evilness) of the mod setting such marvellous characters up against each other on the previous rounds and now presenting us with this choice. To be earnest, both candidates on this round would have lost to anyone on the previous ones... :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Agreed. An actor with a nice paint job would be much better than anything they will accomplish with CG. That said, don't be overly pessimistic. It might just become a decent enough movie, who can tell?
You are right, one can always hope for the good result coming out of that. Though still, in any case, it will be just a movie. Ah well.

But I would like to wonder about the sanity (or evilness) of the mod setting such marvellous characters up against each other on the previous rounds and now presenting us with this choice. To be earnest, both candidates on this round would have lost to anyone on the previous ones... :p

I thought exactly the other way around. Now there are coming candidates I really start to like, I didn't really care that much about those before.

[Groin Redbeard]

I hate cats!:mad: Besides, the trolls offer good comic relief.

++Tom

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + White Cats

Because if they lose it might be necessary to
think of 101 things to do with them.

[Aganzir]

++Catsies

Because I feel more like voting for a cat than a troll now.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

White Cats of Queen Beruthiel -3
Tom - 7

One of the cats was heard to hiss as she left:
"Death is but a door. Time is but a window. I'll be back."

Btw, about the seeding pitting strong candidates against each
other in the first round, I sympathize- and probably objectively
agree- but the reasoning was twofold a) to give longshots a
punchers chance of advancing several rounds, and b) to mitigate
favorites getting virtual byes and make the start of the contest
in the first round overall more competitive. I think the actual effect
is probably minimal, making rounds 1,3,4 the more competitive as
contrasted to 2,3, 4 in more usual seeding.

OOPS! Next up is one of those tough first round matches:
Smaug vs. Drauglin

About Smaug:
"To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There is no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful."

"It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him. [...] His rage passes description - the sort of rage that is only seen when rich folk that have more than they can enjoy suddenly lose something that they have long had but have never before used or wanted. His fire belched forth, the hall smoked, he shook the mountain-roots. [...] He issued from the Gate, the waters rose in fierce whistling steam, and up he soared blazing into the air and settled on the mountain-top in a spout of green and scarlet flame."


About Drauglin:
A dread beast, old in evil lord and sire of the werewolves of Angband.

A mightier shadow slowly filled
the narrow bridge, a slavering hate,
an awful werewolf fierce and great:
pale Draugluin, the old grey lord
of wolves and beasts of blood abhorred,
that fed on flesh of Man and Elf
beneath the chair of Thû himself.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Draugluin stands no chance.

++Smaug

This one was a no-brainer. Smaug! Smaug! Hail Smaug, the Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities!

[Aganzir]

Well for a dragon Smaug is an okay chap... But my general opinion on dragons is no secret.

++Draugluin

I'm not even that fond of wolves, but werewolves are certainly better than some dragons.

[Morthoron]

++Smaug

Excellent and witty repartee with Bilbo. The old Draugr? Not much more than snarling. I'll take acerbic dialogue over growls any day.

[Eönwë]

++Smaug

Witty, Intelligent, powerful. Just a little on the arrogant side.

[Andsigil]

Well, it seems Fate has given me an omen. Just as I read the latest round, this quote appeared at the top of the webpage:

"My armor is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords,
my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt,
my wings a hurricane, and my breath death."
Smaug

So, ++Smaug the Golden it is.

[Thinlómien]

++Smaug the Smug

I love his wit and his vanity. So much more personal and interesting than any other dragon by Tolkien (or probably by any other author either).

PS. I seem to belong to a minority since I find dragons nor awesome nor boring, but just plain "nice" or "ok"... ;)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Hate to pile on against old Drauglin
but Smaug's acerbic wit gives him the
edge.
+ + Smaug

[Nerwen]

++Smaug

Best dragon ever!:smokin:

[Macalaure]

I can see where this is going. :rolleyes: ;)

++Draugluin

Just to spite you people. :p

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Smaug-7
Drauglin-2

Old Man Willow vs. Master of Laketown

In their own ways both were survivors. The Master
not only efficiently ran his town, and was correct in
doubts about the wisdom of riling the status quo
by provoking Smaug, but then made out rather well
with the worm's treasure until the tragic end of this
statesman. Had he survived mayhap his descendants
would have been valued bureaucrats in Eriador and
Rhovannion.

As for Old Man Willow the question is how mobile
(and evil) were he and his followers. Could they have
skittered all the way to Fangorn, in say, 500 years? :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Had he survived mayhap his descendants
would have been valued bureaucrats in Eriador and
Rhovannion.

Well, who knows whether his descendants actually were not there and living a peaceful or less peaceful life, whatever may have happened to the Master himself. ;)

However, with all due respect to Old Man, I vote the old man.

++Master of Laketown

He was an interesting character. And only recently, I realised he was really the only known open supporter of democracy in Middle-Earth! Now come on, that was a great move from royalistic writer like the Prof. - I can well imagine him making a draft of the Master's character, thinking "He is a negative character... what character traits will I give to him? He will be greedy, cowardish, and... hmm... a democrate!"

"King Bard! King Bard!" they shouted; but the Master ground his chattering teeth.
"Girion was lord of Dale, not king of Esgaroth," he said. "In the Laketown we have always elected masters from among the old and wise..."

The impersonation of all evil... fantastic!

[Morthoron]

++Old Man Willow

The Master of Laketown was a conniving and venal bureaucrat (most likely a proto-Republican). There is nothing likeable or endearing in a thieving politician (and really, haven't we had enough of those in our governments currently?).

Old Man Willow, on the other hand, is wonderfully cranky and curmudgeonly, and would quote George Bernard Shaw if he could speak.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The Master of Laketown was a conniving and venal bureaucrat (most likely a proto-Republican). There is nothing likeable or endearing in a thieving politician (and really, haven't we had enough of those in our governments currently?).

Well, but Morth, that's just what is so great about him! He was the primeval politician, the first one, uncorrupted yet by the centuries of politicians existing before him... he was the first, "virgin politician", and it was all up to him, how he chooses to manifest his corrupted ways! I mean to say, there was no set thing for him what should a corrupt politician look like, and he managed to do it all by himself! Isn't it great?

[Thinlómien]

++Old Man Willow

I couldn't vote the Master of Laketown for personal reasons, suffice to say that his youngest son was a jerk. :p;)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

A difficult choice, and surprisingly, both in
some ways are the most "sympathetic" of
the rogues in this gallery. Old Man Willow
and his chums have been harassed, attacked,
and destroyed for centuries with their patrimony
drastically reduced- more then any by relatives
of the very people going through his forest remnant.

And The Master (related to Dr. Who's
old nemesis? :D ) while he was the teensiest bit corrupt,
did a good job seeing to the economic and political
health of Laketown (including solid Laketown/elf relations).

So since I'm in a state that is going increasingly blue
I think I'll go for the candidate who (with all his flaws)
is more attuned to vox populi .

+ + The Master Of Laketown

[Groin Redbeard]

++The Master of Laketown

Old Man Willow just doesn't have enough substance. The Master of Laketown actually talks!

P.S. Why was The Master of Laketown (we have got to abbreviate that name) put in the evil category? Although he was conniving and corrupt, I never considered him to be evil. Speaking of evil, why isn't Thranduil on the list?

[Morthoron]

P.S. Why was The Master of Laketown (we have got to abbreviate that name) put in the evil category??

Well, aside from being a coward, he was a manipulative thief, who stole gold meant for aiding the widows and fatherless shildren of Laketown. But as with all such villains in Middle-earth, Tolkien has him starve to death alone in the wilderness. I am sure he would have a place on the board of Haliburton if he lived today.

Speaking of evil, why isn't Thranduil on the list?

One might as well ask why Thorin isn't listed among villains; after all, it was due to his stupid greed that Laketown was destroyed and many people died needlessly. In addition, he nearly caused a war between Dwarves and Elves and Men. Thranduil? he imprisoned the dwarves for trespassing and stirring up the deadly spiders (as was his kingly right), but he didn't abuse them, and he also benvolently aided Bard and the people of Laketown when they most needed it. I don't get your point.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Other debatable villains:
Feanor (probably not)
Caranthir and Curunir (probably)
Thingol (probably not...but)
Saeros (very probably)

[Andsigil]

Well, aside from being a coward, he was a manipulative thief, who stole gold meant for aiding the widows and fatherless shildren of Laketown. But as with all such villains in Middle-earth, Tolkien has him starve to death alone in the wilderness. I am sure he would have a place on the board of Haliburton if he lived today.

Strange... I'd always pictured him more as an ACORN director.

++Master of Laketown for being a slimy, skullduggering poltroon.

[Andsigil]

Other debatable villains:
Feanor (probably not)
Caranthir and Curunir (probably)
Thingol (probably not...but)
Saeros (very probably)

I would consider Feanor a villain. Nothing can excuse, or atone for, the Kinslaying.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Other debatable villains:
Feanor (probably not)
Caranthir and Curunir (probably)
Thingol (probably not...but)
Saeros (very probably)

Saeros is definitely a negative character, but not sure if I would call him a villain, poor one, he is the most disgusting character ever.
Caranthir and... Curufin, you probably mean? But it's Celegorm and Curufin; Caranthir is the third one. At least the two of them are definitely villains, Caranthir is quite nice (he helps the Men after they are decimated by the Orcs... even though late).

But hey, I would not really make such a trouble out of that. I would not stretch it: we have some list and I suggest we stick to it, even now it's quite enough of them.

And certainly, at least this far, we have been sticking to villains (more or less, let's say the Master of Laketown being on the border, but being still there). With those listed above, we'd be somewhat crossing the border... because then what about Denethor etc...

[Aganzir]

Hey Fëanor and his sons are far from evil! ♥

++ Old Man Willow

I've disliked the Master of Laketown even before the RPG that featured his jerk son, whereas the Old Forest is one of my favourite places in Middle-earth. Old Man Willow is a lovely character, and I even managed to include him in the werewolf game I modded. :cool:

The atmosphere when he traps the hobbits is ever so wonderful.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Legate
Sa
Caranthir and... Curufin, you probably mean? But it's Celegorm and Curufin; Caranthir is the third one. At least the two of them are definitely villains, Caranthir is quite nice (he helps the Men after they are decimated by the Orcs... even though late).

Yep. You're quite correct.

Voting at present, 3-3 (but MoL wins so far on tiebreaker).

[Groin Redbeard]

One might as well ask why Thorin isn't listed among villains; after all, it was due to his stupid greed that Laketown was destroyed and many people died needlessly. In addition, he nearly caused a war between Dwarves and Elves and Men.Typical talk from an elf fan.:rolleyes: I have a much different picture on Thranduil, but that is a different topic for another time.

Thranduil? he imprisoned the dwarves for trespassing and stirring up the deadly spiders (as was his kingly right)...Kingly right? Mule fritters!:mad: You forget that Thorin was also a King!

[Morthoron]

Typical talk from an elf fan.:rolleyes: I have a much different picture on Thranduil, but that is a different topic for another time.

Kingly right? Mule fritters!:mad: You forget that Thorin was also a King!

King? Of what? Actually, Thorin would have been barbequed Naugrim-bites(tm) if it hadn't been for Bard of Dale, Dain of the Iron Hills and Thranduil of Mirkwood (yes, Thranduil, my confused dwarvish dupe). Thorin was literally given his throne back by the blood of Men, Elves, and Dwarves (like Dain's folk, who were not homeless vagrants like Thorin).

As far as your take on Thranduil, your obvious dorf-bias casts a pall over your short-sighted sensibilities. I suggest you reread the book and get back to me when you can come up with a reasonable argument.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Master Of Laketown-3
Old Man Willow-3

MoL wins on tiebreaker.

Next: Maeglin vs. The Witch King

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

++The WK

With no question. Okay, I did not want to say it when we were voting about Eöl not to lose support of those who liked his son, but not him, but let's face it: he is as stupid as his father! Actually, he reminds me of teenage Anakin Skywalker...

Whereas WK is so charming, so clever (sometimes), he is a Nazgul (that's the main point. He is cool!), and what more, he is a fallen Númenorean lord!

And he is not afraid of entering the River (Bruinen).

And he fought Glorfindel (and Gandalf (and Éowyn, of course) ).

Oh, and he is the lord of Minas Morgul! Now come on, one of the coolest cities in Middle-Earth? (Forget the weird, even though not that bad by itself, portrayal of it in the movies... I just don't imagine the city like that.)

And, he called the Barrow-Wights to dwell in the Barrow-Downs in the first place! Now come on, isn't that a reason by itself to vote him? :smokin:

[Morthoron]

Funny thing, I would vote for Eol, but I wouldn't vote for Maeglin. At least Eol showed some testicular fortitude in going to Gondolin to get his family back; Maeglin, however, was whiney and weak, and was cowed by Morgoth when Elves such as Fingolfin and Maedhros were not.

++The WiKi

[Andsigil]

Dante reserved the Second Round of the Ninth Circle of Hell (Antenor) especially for traitors to political entities, such as party, city, or country. Maeglin deserves to be boiled in pitch in some particularly awful spot in Mandos's Halls for betraying Gondolin to Morgoth.

++Witch King because I despise him less.

[Aganzir]

++Maeglin

I suppose I've always had a liking for proud losers.

[Thinlómien]

++Maeglin

He's cool.
He's a charming, proud bad boy.

He's not a simple villain or hero.

I pity him.

(And besides, his name is nice and it sounds a bit like the name of someone really cool... ;))

As for the W-K, his doings in Angmar are cool, the Nazgûl are cool and it would be interesting to know how they were before they became evil (I've always wanted to do an RPG on that topic), but somehow, I don't know, he's just pretty lame. I just don't find him very interesting. (The Nazgûl lose 90% of their scariness after FotR anyway.)

In short, if you put me to choose between an interesting, tragic half-villain and a villain who's simply a villain (or maybe was less so in some distant past of which we're told nothing), my choice is clear.


edit: xed and agreed with Agan ;)

[Groin Redbeard]

++Witch King because I despise him less.My sentiments exactly! Sic Semper Tyrannis!

Besides, The Witch King makes up some of the most interesting parts of Middle-earth history ever. The rise of Angmar and the fall of the Northern Kingdom is amazing to read!:D

++Witch King

EDIT:
(I've always wanted to do an RPG on that topic)I heard that! :D

[Macalaure]

Maeglin is not a simple villain, but merely a poor little boy whose cruel cousin would not marry him because of some feigned "incest" reason. :rolleyes:
She would belong in here!

The Witch King, however, is the Witch King. The Witch King! He's the ruddy Witch King people!

The! Witch! King!

++WitchKing


(-- nasty little hobbitses witch nasty little magic swords)

[Durelin]

++The Witch King/Lord of Angmar/Captain of Despair/etc.

Why? Besides the obvious...

1. Because he has so many awesome names/titles for a reason.
2. He had to be killed by a woman (yeah yeah, had something to do with some silly hobbit and his silly Westernesse blade or whatever, too (right?), but meh).
3. He is the only being I truly have reason to be jealous of, as my love is obsessed with the guy.

[skip spence]

I love to pile it on the ungrateful son, Maeglin. Dante's got it right, there's nothing worse than a filthy traitor.

++The Witch King

[Thinlómien]

I love to pile it on the ungrateful son, Maeglin. Dante's got it right, there's nothing worse than a filthy traitor.And who says WK didn't betray anyone when he became a ringwraith? :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

And who says WK didn't betray anyone when he became a ringwraith? :p

He better would! Otherwise, he does not deserve as much of my vote.

Somebody said here WK is not as great as Nazgul - true, Khamul is for example far better and far more fascinating! He is the coolest, actually, one among the coolest folks in M-E. (Hey, now I just thought, where is Gothmog? I don't mean the balrog... although that could be as well... but the other one, Lieutenant of Morgul... anyway...)

But Maeglin is boring!!!

[Thinlómien]

But Maeglin is boring!!!Oh, tsk tsk, you're still holding a grudge because your wife had an affair with him. :p;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh, tsk tsk, you're still holding a grudge because your wife had an affair with him. :p;)

Yes. And I don't understand how that was possible, because Maeglin is boring. ;)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

While Maeglin was especially icky, betraying the
"jewel in the crown" elf city to rule over the remnants
of Gondolin with a forced marriage a la Ar-Pharazon/Miriel,
first cousin's marriage is not only fairly common with
royalty (and in Appalachia? :D ) but I don't think it is
technically incest.
And he is a free agent throughout while tWKoA
is more then not a tool (albeit apparently a willing one,
and in Angmar pretty much a local free agent), so

+ + Maeglin

[Nogrod]

As for the W-K, his doings in Angmar are cool, the Nazgûl are cool and it would be interesting to know how they were before they became evil (I've always wanted to do an RPG on that topic), but somehow, I don't know, he's just pretty lame. I just don't find him very interesting. (The Nazgûl lose 90% of their scariness after FotR anyway.)Here I must agree with Lommy wholeheartedly.

And then just think about the fact that the Nazgûl were the scariest and most interesting in the FotR but they were also just incompetent losers who couldn't even win a party of a ranger and four hobbits in the middle of nowhere! :)

So not are they only a bit lame as characters but they are ones Tolkien flip-flopped to no limit. So what does it tell one? They were not actual dramatic characters or persons but just filled a role in the storyline, puppets of the plot and nothing more. :rolleyes:

Although I agree with many that it would have been interesting to learn more about their past deeds especially as human kings. But that wish only betrays the problem: they are not full-grown characters.

So therefore:

++ Maeglin

(Who sure is a character!)

And also because of trying to make this a contest and not just a walk-through for the WK.

[Groin Redbeard]

And then just think about the fact that the Nazgûl were the scariest and most interesting in the FotR but they were also just incompetent losers who couldn't even win a party of a ranger and four hobbits in the middle of nowhere! :)
Well if you want to look at it like that than Maeglin is an egotistical brat who wants what he can't have and breaks so it that nobody can have it. Hmph:)

The Nazgul as a whole might lose their scariness after tFotR, but certainly not the Witch King. His evil personality is great before and after tFotR. Besides, I think that we can all agree that the Nazgul, for that short period, were terrifying and spectacularly portrayed. The question is: how much did it impress you. For me it was a lot, therefore The Witch King gets my vote.:)

[skip spence]

And who says WK didn't betray anyone when he became a ringwraith? :p

He probably did. But the WiKi, using Morth's abbreviation which makes him sound like a high-tech gadget, is one of the bad guys through and through and though he was incompetent, at least he was loyal to his team. That said, I wish I could change my vote. This is the bad popularity thread after all and Maeglin is indeed a much better villain.

[CaptainofDespair]

++The Witch-King

Because if I didn't support him, I'd be betraying myself...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

A respectable effort by Maeglin, but:
Maeglin-4 WKoA -8

Next up: Watcher in the Water vs. Sauron

WinW is one of those interesting, autonomous
forces, some for good and others for evil, in LOTR (like ents, Shelob,
and Caradhras) that give both depth and a sense
of realism (think of World War II motivations and
interactions of U.S. and U.K.- common goal against
nazis but diametrically opposed views of British
colonialism).
As Aragorn observed of Caradhras:
There are many evil and unfriendly
things in the world that have little love for those that go
on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but
have purposes of their own. Some have been in this
world longer then he.

And Sauron is quite interestingly different in the Three
Ages: First- a loyal lieutenant to Morgoth
Second-arguably the dominant player
Third-an unseen but looming (except for PJ's eyeball) presence.

[Nerwen]

*looks over previous round*
*chuckles*

It's quite clear: the male Downers are jealous of Maeglin!:D

[Morthoron]

It's quite clear: the male Downers are jealous of Maeglin!:D

Ummm...why jealous? Maeglin didn't end up with the hot babe.

Oh, and I vote for ++Sauron.

[Nerwen]

Now, this is a really easy one. No contest.

The big squid-thing has to be one of the most awesome villains in the history of villainy. Such a fascinating character. So vitally important to the story– look how it changed the entire history of Middle-Earth by giving Frodo a scare and eating up Óin or Glóin or Sleepy or Happy or Grumpy or whoever it was. Not to mention the fact that it would probably make great calamari.:cool:

Why Tolkien had to go and name the book after some sissy jeweller when he could have called it The Watcher in the Water or The Thing With Lots of Tentacles or simply Squid! I'll never understand. I'm sure H.P. Lovecraft would be with me on this one.

Nevertheless, for some reason I feel compelled to vote

++Sauron.

[Andsigil]

Immortal, uber-powerful Maiar and contemporary source of all evil in Middle Earth vs. squishy thing that Red Wings fans throw onto the ice?

Let me think... umm.....

....


Oh, yeah. ++Sauron

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Heck, just to give it a contest.

++The Watcher in the Water

After all, come on. He is cool. He eats Óin. And he would eat a few more Boromirs too, had they not been cowards and fled inside Moria. The Watcher is certainly a cute octopus.

[Thinlómien]

++Sauron

To quote myself in the previous popularity cup:

++Sauron

He's a werewolf!

I mean... it's serious this time. :D

--

Sauron --.... he's twisted. He's rather boring maybe in LotR as he's reduced to being merely "the enemy", but in the Silmarillion and the UT he's gory and very fascinating... All that cunning, all those beautiful lies, the immense charisma, the extreme cruelty (Gorlim and Eilinel - that's really the most horror stuff Tolkien ever wrote) and of course, he was the lord of werewolves :Merisu: and also, a mighty singer. You've got to admit he was pretty darn cool before he became very boringly just "the Dark Lord". (Also, I love the name "the Necromancer", more so actually in the Finnish translation. It's been translated with the word that corresponds to "witch" and using it of men is totally appropriate, but rather rare. It always intrigued me. Also, Dol Gûldur is just really creepy however little we know about it...)

The Watcher in the Water taking Óin is indeed rather fascinating and scary, but other than that, I never liked the monster very much.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Why not the WintW ? Just imagine the
plot twist if he had gobbled up Frodo and
put on the Ring. :) (And boy, can that
Ring expand)!

+ + Watcher in the Water

Of course, if Sauron should somehow eke
out a win it would set up an interesting match
between the WK and his boss.

[Groin Redbeard]

After all, come on. He is cool. He eats Óin. And he would eat a few more Boromirs too, had they not been cowards and fled inside Moria. The Watcher is certainly a cute octopus. Actually the book says that Óin was "taken" by the Watcher. Who knows, maybe it was lonely and only wanted someone to talk to.;)

I agree with Lommy. There's no contest.

++Sauron

[Thinlómien]

Actually the book says that Óin was "taken" by the Watcher. Who knows, maybe it was lonely and only wanted someone to talk to.;)Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *wonders if she should retract after all* :D;)

[CaptainofDespair]

The Watcher in the Water?

It is mysterious, many-armed, and it doesn't need to trick a bunch of Elves, Dwarves, and Men into putting on some rings so it can try to dominate them. Then again, it does seem rather confined to...water.

And Sauron is, after all, Sauron.

Hmm...

++The Watcher in the Water

[the phantom]

*rolls eyes*

Big ugly monster, or....

Brilliant cruel evil dominant force for three ages of Middle Earth.

Tough.

++Sauron

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Watcher in the Water-3 Sauron-5

Sauron keeps his eye on the prize, WinW goes
on to use the gold he liberated from elves and
dwarves to work on financing a canal to the
Encircling Sea.

Next:

The Black Cat (of Queen Beruthiel) vs. Ar-Pharazon

Should non-cat lovers prevail the question would arise of
how to dispose of the cat:
Queen Beruthiel uses it to swab a deck?
A fur hat for a balding dwarf?

[Morthoron]

My daughter has a black cat (or actually, the cat allows her to feed it and deigns to be petted when and if it feels like it). But he is a cat. *shrugs*

++Ar-Pharazon.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I had a black cat who was actually quite unusual for his kind: he knew who was boss, and he knew it wasn't him. :D

Ar-Pharazon, on the other hand, reminds me of many people I've known who think the world exists for their greater glory, and all else (greater powers included) are somehow subservient to their will.

Given that, I choose

++The Black Cat of Queen Beruthiel

He (or she?) was one of a kind. :)

[Andsigil]

Yet another cat? And this time, against the man who led an armada against Valinor?

Bleah.

++Ar Pharazon

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am not sure about this one at all. Because, there are some things which are quite interesting about Ar-P, however, I am not sure if he "deserves" to win this one. I mean: he is neither any fascinating evil character (rather a misguided fool), nor a great character with some amazing character trait (can't think of any), he was perhaps only a cool conqueror, yes, that is true. I am quite amazed by his victory over Sauron - imagine the massive army he must have had, had to be quite impressive assault - and this monument they raised in Umbar to mark his victory there. It has something quite realistic in itself - it is said that despite all the horrible deeds Ar-P has done, this victory was always held by the Dúnedain in memory as something to be really proud of in their history, and to be proud of Ar-P, that means, consequently. (I am kind of comparing inside my mind - our history/ies are full of characters of kings and leaders like this; the first I now thought of, if I imagine let's say Stalin, it was probably something very similar, he was praised for what he did in turning back the Nazis and eventually beating them on the eastern front. One cannot deny him this, whatever his other deeds were like - of course, another thing are also the uncountable dead even in the war because of the way it was fought...)

Well, seems like I made it clear for myself after all through some reflection on the course of writing this :)

++Ar-Pharazon the Golden

[Durelin]

I love cats. Ar-Pharazon was an egotistical fool of a Sauron-puppet who ruined it for everyone.

++The Black Cat of Queen Beruthiel

[Groin Redbeard]

Since this is a villain thread, and not a character appreciation thread, I would have to go with:

++Ar Pharazon

I hate what he turned Numenor into because of his pride, but he is the better villain.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

it is said that despite all the horrible deeds Ar-P has done, this victory was always held by the Dúnedain in memory as something to be really proud of in their history, and to be proud of Ar-P, that means, consequently. (I am kind of comparing inside my mind - our history/ies are full of characters of kings and leaders like this; the first I now thought of, if I imagine let's say Stalin, it was probably something very similar, he was praised for what he did in turning back the Nazis and eventually beating them on the eastern front. One cannot deny him this, whatever his other deeds were like - of course, another thing are also the uncountable dead even in the war because of the way it was fought...)

Another example, to me, of questionable admiration is the American for
Andrew Jackson, a rather unlikable, bullyish, duel-happy person,
whose chief military success (The Battle of New Orleans) was irrelevant to
the "tie" result of the War of 1812, and his anti-Native American action,
driving them from the South to the west was compounded by his ignoring
a Supreme Court decision against it.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Ar-Pharazon

[Aganzir]

++ Ar-Pharazôn

He was an irritating fool but I rather vote for him than a random cat.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Ar-Pharazon -6
Black Cat -2

Next: Glaurung vs. Thuringwethil

While Glaurung the Deceiver is well-known, here's some
info on his worthy opponent (from Tolkien Gateway):
Thuringwethil (perished First Age c. 465) was a Vampire servant of Sauron during the First Age. She was Sauron's messenger, but was caught in the battle between her master and Lúthien and Huan at Tol-in-Gaurhoth ("Isle of Werewolves"). She was slain either by the Hound of Valinor or in the collapse of Minas Tirith. Lúthien later used her cloak to sneak into Angband during the Quest for the Silmaril.

Because of Thuringwethil's ability to change forms, she may have been a Maia.

[edit] Etymology
The name Thuringwethil is difficult to translate. The direct translation is "Secret Sister" (from thurin = "secret, hidden" and gwethil = "sister, associate"), but Tolkien took her name to mean "Woman of Secret Shadow".

[Morthoron]

++Glaurung

Thuringwethil is not even intriguing in her obscurity. I mean, really, when your claim to fame is that someone else skinned you and wore you like a Halloween costume, there isn't much happening for you.

[Andsigil]

Glaurung was the nuclear weapon of his age, whereas Thuringwethil killed or destroyed.... umm.......?

++Glaurung

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Thuringwethil is not even intriguing in her obscurity.

Morth phrased it here in a short and most precise way. For some reason, it's almost as if she wasn't needed to be there.

All right, when one starts to think about it... she was Sauron's messenger, flying from Tol-in-Gaurhoth... it might have been interesting, or rather, it would have been very interesting if we could, let's say, glimpse a bit of dialogue between her and Sauron (all right, that's more than you usually get even about the Nazgul or such). Now I am sure it would be cool. But this way... really, she just fits into the row of unknown characters, or unknown female (!) characters - which is a pity, as she certainly had some potential (I am sure Tolkien would not make her any close to the "primitive stereotypical zero-personality villain" like most movie-makers or story-writers nowadays would make her: I mean, you hear "she-vampire" and you can basically guess along which lines she would be. I hope nobody will ever make the Silm a movie, otherwise I am sure they will give more place to her than in the book. Unfortunately).

In any case, it's the "don't-look-to-the-eyes-of-a-stranger" guy with some primeval stage of the Voice of Saruman (hmm... great. Now it made me think about the difference between audio- and visual manipulation portrayed on these two... could almost make a good thread) who is getting my vote this time.

++Glaurung

[Eönwë]

++Glaurung

Always been one of my favourite evil characters in the Silm (Well, always may be a bit strong, I only read the Silm something like 4 years ago).

Charismatic and evil in a hardened way, but very intruiging. He also strikes me as somewhat intelligent, even though he is a little too sure of himself.

[skip spence]

Smaug is great and all but Glaurung's still his daddy.

I'm tempted to quote a few segments from CoH and the sack of Nargothrond:


Then Túrin sprang about, and strode against him, and fire was in his eyes, and the edges of Gurthang shone as with flame. But Glaurung withheld his blast, and opened wide his serpent-eyes and gazed upon Túrin. Without fear Túrin looked in those eyes as he raised up his sword; and straightway he fell under the dreadful spell of the dragon, and was as one turned to stone. Thus long they stood unmoving, silent in front of the great Doors of Felagund. Then Glaurung spoke again taunting Túrin. 'Evil have been all your ways, son of Húrin,' said he. 'Thankless fosterling, outlaw, slayer of your friend, thief of love, usurper of Nargothrond, captain foolhardy, and deserter of your own kin. As thralls your mother and sister live in Dor-lómin, in misery and want. You are arrayed as a prince, but they go in rags. For you they yearn, but you care not for that. Glad may your father be to learn that he has such a son: as learn he shall.'

A bit later:

Glaurung laughed once more, for he had accomplished the errand of his master. Then he turned to his own pleasure, and sent forth his blast, and burned all about him. But all the Orcs that were busy in the sack he routed forth, and drove them away, and denied them the plunder even to the last thing of worth. The bridge he then broke down and cast into the foam of Narog; and being thus secure he gathered all the hoard and riches of Felagund and heaped them, and lay upon them in the innermost hall, and rested for a while.

Glaurung up against a fur coat? Bah!

++Glaurung

[Tuor in Gondolin]

For contrarians:
+ + Thuringwethil

P.S. Glaurung just doesn't have Smaug's
sardonic sense of humor. And he can't fly!

[Groin Redbeard]

Wow, I thought that it would be a closer contest than this. I thought that Thuringwethil's "coolness" would certainly be a match for Glaurung's intriguingly twisted way of speaking.

++Glaurung

[the phantom]

Glaurung is the father of dragons, and he did some pretty darn evil things.

But I just find Thuringwethil interesting. I wish we knew more about her. A flying vampire lady. Very cool. I picture her like this (http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/lotr/arnor/catalog/images/Gulavhar_lg.jpg) when in flight or battle.

And like most vampires she can take on a more human form (for disguise, and seducing the enemy). For that I picture this (http://media.canada.com/5bd68867-954f-4ea6-b165-b4b7a6c4840a/061027fakingmonsters.jpg) and this (http://uk.hollywood.com/website/soapbox/profiles/KateB/underworld1-1.jpg) (minus the gun of course).

Deadly and beautiful. I simply must answer-

++Thuringwethil

[Groin Redbeard]

And like most vampires she can take on a more human form (for disguise, and seducing the enemy). For that I picture this (http://media.canada.com/5bd68867-954f-4ea6-b165-b4b7a6c4840a/061027fakingmonsters.jpg) and this (http://uk.hollywood.com/website/soapbox/profiles/KateB/underworld1-1.jpg) (minus the gun of course).

Deadly and beautiful. I simply must answer-
Ick! To elvish! I think that a messenger of Morgoth would look a little more demonic than that. By the way, do we know if Thuringwethil is a girl? The name certainly sounds girly.:rolleyes:

[the phantom]

Ick!
You see Kate Beckinsale and say "ick"???

That's just... wow... you need some help, buddy.
I think that a messenger of Morgoth would look a little more demonic than that.
Sauron was constantly taking on beautiful forms to fool the good guys. And I recall that Frodo said, "I think a servant of the Enemy would look fairer and feel fouler."

Evil must be attractive sometimes. Otherwise not as many people would go along with it.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Glaurung-6 Thuringwethil-2

Next: A match everyone's been waiting for!

Golfimbul vs. Bill Ferny

Golfimbul's clearly malevolent, invading the Shire and (granted
inadvertently) being a participant in the invention of
the evil game of golf (don't get me started :mad: ).
Of course, if there's a hovel in The Halls of Waiting for orcs
(after all, they may be of elvish origin!) the other orcs
probably razz him constantly for losing a battle to hobbits. :o

And Bill Ferny is obviously a sly survivor, who probably took
riches earned by being a spy (for both Orthanc and Baraddur?)
and helping Sharkey loot the Shire to set himself up in comfort
in the Far East or South.

[Morthoron]

++Bill Ferny

I'm not much of a fan of golf. I also enjoy Ferny's use of the mild expletive 'garn'.

[Andsigil]

"Golf, the best way to spoil a good walk"
-Winston Churchill

++Bill Ferney for reminding me of a US Congressman.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

And Bill Ferny is obviously a sly survivor, who probably took
riches earned by being a spy (for both Orthanc and Baraddur?)

As I read his character, he was probably a spy for anybody who just happened to come by. He was in no real connection to Barad-Dur (how could he even be), but he happened to be just at the right place at the right time to meet the Nazgul; as Strider says, he "would sell anything to anybody".

I like Ferny a lot because of this double-dealing, as a traitor, I like him, in fact, far more than Gríma. Besides, I like his squint-eyed friend a lot as well.

I like Golfimbul too, but here I just have to make way for Bill. (Even though he is apparently not being that nice to animals.)

++Bill Ferny

[Thinlómien]

You guys are boring. You should have let Thuringwethil (who does not look like Kate Beckinsale though! :eek: ) through and let the boring, over-appreciated nasty worm be kicked out of this competition... :p

Anyway,

++Bill Ferny

because he's nice (except in the late ww game :rolleyes: ). Golfimbul, on the other hand, does not strike me as interesting or cool in any way and if he is even partly to be blamed for the invention of Golf, he deserves to be hated.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Bill Ferny

I nicely devious character, especially to
apparently survive given his numerous
encounters with various good and bad guys.

[Aganzir]

++Ferny

Always better than a random orc with a silly name.

[Durelin]

Noooo! I missed the Thuringwethil match! Not that I would have made a difference. :( *shakes fist angrily*

[Nogrod]

Haha, a game of two slimy opportunists...

Now as you all seem to vote for Bil Ferny because he's someone it's esier to relate to then I should in principle vote otherwise.

++ Golfimbul

C'mon, he actually did something whereas Bill Ferny just gave information but stayed in the background all the time trying to be safe and not be seen as taking sides. Golfimbul was open with his stance and stood for what he did. :rolleyes:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Golfimbul was open with his stance and stood for what he did. :rolleyes:

Yes, he was open with his stance and followed it; he basically took head...

[Groin Redbeard]

Always better than a random orc with a silly name.Exactly, Golfimbul has two sentences in the entire Tolkien universe. It wasn't even Golfimbul who created golf, it was the old Took. Hats off to him for that!:D

++Bill Ferny

Your typical buy me off type of person. A really disgusting character, but a much better villain than Golfimbul.

[Nogrod]

Now where's the sportsmanship in here?

It's now 7-1.

You call this a competition?

[the phantom]

To me, Ferny seems like a cowardly and despicable wimp.

At least Golfimbul tried to raid the Shire. Ferny had to wait for someone else to do it and then nosed in to take advantage of the situation.

++Golfimbul

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Golfimbul-2 Bill Ferny-7

Golfimbul rolls away with three of his chums
to take on the Took Tornadoes in a lively
game of lawn bowling.

Next: Two neighbors in TH, neither with an
especially positive relationship to Thorin & Co. in
general or burrahobbits in particular:
The Great Goblin vs. William

[Morthoron]

Bolg was living off the accomplishments of his far greater father, Azog. William had a better accent.

++William

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + William

Not only was he a great humanitarian
toward burrahobbits:
Poor little blighter! Let him go!

But he showed tactical survival sense beyond his mates:
Shut yer mouth! Yer can't expect folk to stop
here for ever just to be et by you and Bert. You've et a
village and half between yer, since we come down from
the mountains. How much more d'yer want? And times
been up our way, when yer'd have said 'thank yer Bill' fora nice bit
'o fat valley mutton like what this is.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Bolg was living off the accomplishments of his far greater father, Azog.

Wait, wait. Just so that there is no confusion: Bolg is son of Azog and he comes from Gundabad, and was the leader of the Orcs in the Battle of the Five Armies. The Great Goblin is the master of the Goblins of the High Pass, and he has no name, and he was killed by Gandalf, in the result of which the Dwarves were freed.

The Great Goblin was quite interesting. I mean, not really bad. But William is my favourite of the Trolls. And he was the most... hmm... nice :) I mean, he does not want to eat poor Bilbo and wants to let him go. And poor him, he was accused by his fellows for leading them down from the mountains, even though he surely had the best intentions in mind! He certainly deserves some credit.

++William

EDIT: x-ed with Tuor. Yes, exactly! I am glad to see I am not the only one who noticed that :)

[Andsigil]

++William

He even has a surname of Huggins. Interesting, I'll bet, the study of hill troll genealogy.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

He even has a surname of Huggins. Interesting, I'll bet, the study of hill troll genealogy.

Yes, that's another interesting thing. I always forget about it - mainly because in my translation, it's for some reason left out. I wonder what made them not to translate it...

[Nogrod]

I always forget about it - mainly because in my translation, it's for some reason left out. I wonder what made them not to translate it...I wonder more why Tolkien decided to give William that surname in the first place! Why a surname? And of all the possibilities he comes up with Huggins! Now really... :rolleyes:

It would be reasonable to stand against the tide again and vote for the Great Goblin, but he's just not... well, votable.

I think he was always the mere nobody standing for a role there had to be. A goblin king living under the mountains could have been a formidable character but GG is not.

++ William

[Aganzir]

The Great Goblin was mean to Thorin.

++William

Hmm, William was mean to the dwarves, too. But less so. And he didn't eat their ponies.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I wonder more why Tolkien decided to give William that surname in the first place! Why a surname? And of all the possibilities he comes up with Huggins! Now really... :rolleyes:
Well, and why not? You could ask the same way, why a name, in the first place? This, if nothing else, implies the reoccurance of first names among Trolls. One was Bill the Goat-Eater, another was Bill Two-Tooth, another one was Bill Huggins. It does not necessarily imply a family name, although... hmm... a Huggins clan... "Clan of the Red Claw!" "Clan of the Stone!" "Clan of Huggins!" Now, really...

Well, at least you can be glad he wasn't called Bill Noggins :p

Oh, and actually... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Huggins

I think the time of his life implies that Tolkien might have been well informed about him...

I think he was always the mere nobody standing for a role there had to be. A goblin king living under the mountains could have been a formidable character but GG is not.
Well, it's not that bad... he has one or two interesting quotes, like "Murderers and friends of Elves!" and "Throw them into the pits full of snakes!", which beats Legolas from the movies, but

[Durelin]

++The Great Goblin

I've always liked the goblins, especially as portrayed in The Hobbit (if they're really portrayed anywhere else). They're more interesting than other orcs to me, as they are more independent. And I like how they're kinda buddy-buddy with the wargs, without the wargs being subject to them. They also, from what I remember, seem to be possible to reason with. They seem to have protocols.

I like Bert, Tom, and Bill plenty, but...meh, there's three of them.

I think he was always the mere nobody standing for a role there had to be. A goblin king living under the mountains could have been a formidable character but GG is not.

Well, they're goblins...in The Hobbit, a children's story...they have to be a little silly and thus their leader largely incompetent...to avoid gruesome torture and death scenes and such... As if Bert, Tom, and Bill are especially formidable. :rolleyes: :D

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

And I like how they're kinda buddy-buddy with the wargs, without the wargs being subject to them. They also, from what I remember, seem to be possible to reason with. They seem to have protocols.

Ah yes, true. Actually, it looked like that under some circumstances, Thoring could have talked himself out of the situation... true. A pity, really. Hmm, I should have re-read that before voting. Perhaps I would have reconsidered. Well, but still. William is a nice guy.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

William-6 The Great Goblin-1

Next: Gorbag vs. Shagrat
A tragic brother against brother (sort of) struggle, perhaps
somewhere between Damon and Pythias and Cain and Abel,
okay, probably the latter.
To hear what they might well select as their theme song
try a Google search for Two heads are better than
one Power Tool . (I can't post directly an http link,
due no doubt to my very limited computer savvy. I could get
links on my old PC but not with my new laptop).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Now, I think this match could at last be interesting, and I am really interested in seeing the preferrences people have.

For me, it is Gorbag, because... I just like him. To me, he seems a bit nicer, a bit more clever, in some way, he is more "independant" (though Shagrat is also, but in his own, rather nasty way). I mean, Gorbag looks like more of a relaxed-type guy to me. And he has far cooler coat of arms, dwells in a far cooler place (and probably has a regular talk to the Nazgul).

And, he was the only known Orc with an apparent interest in philosophy of metaphysics. :smokin: Hmm, perhaps he would have became a good philosopher, had he had the time and not be too burdened by his duties as a commander (or again, if he was "free", then if he had enough other Orcs to take care of supplying the food and all necessary things... hmm, now where I have heard this...). Or he had metaphysics as his hobby. (Stimulated, no doubt, by his living is such a proximity to the Ringwraith - as it is even implied by the text itself.)

++Gorbag

I really disliked Shagrat in the beginning, to be honest, although in the end, nowadays I don't mind him anymore, in fact, I could perhaps sort of like him as well. But Gorbag is still far in the lead.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

And these two, in their interactions and
allusions, and their own succoming to the
power of the Ring- not unlike Boromir and
Frodo, et. al.- come closest to making Orcs
"human."

An example of their "humanness":
'You should try being up here with Shelob for
company,' said Shagrat.
'I'd like to try somewhere where there's none of 'em.
But the war's on now, and when that's over things may
be easier.'
It's going well, they say.'
'They would,' grunted Gorbag. We'll see. But anyway,
if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What
d'you say?- if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and
set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads,
somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and
no big bosses.'
'Ah!" said Shagrat. 'Like old times.'

[Thinlómien]

++Shagrat

He always struck me as.. well... more sneaky and less of the Schwarzenegger-type. :D Although, Gorbag might even be smarter after all, but Shagrat has the "home ground" so he does look like the smart expert. I don't know, it's maybe the same as that I always liked Grishnákh more than Uglúk, although Uglúk is the one more "worthy" of liking of those two.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

He always struck me as.. well... more sneaky and less of the Schwarzenegger-type. :D Although, Gorbag might even be smarter after all, but Shagrat has the "home ground" so he does look like the smart expert. I don't know, it's maybe the same as that I always liked Grishnákh more than Uglúk, although Uglúk is the one more "worthy" of liking of those two.

Great! I always had it the other way around. And (as I just now re-read it), Shagrat looks more like an expert in the things concerning Shelob etc., but when it comes to reasoning, Gorbag is more clever - like, in this sense that he suspects this "great Elven warrior" and puts two and two together, knowing that if Frodo was alone, he would have been eaten already.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Gorbag

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Due to a lack of voting, time for this round
will be extended for at least 12 hours.

[the phantom]

He managed to get away with Frodo's gear, so I'll give Shagrat the edge.

++Shagrat

[Andsigil]

Shagrat killed Gorbag. So, is it really a contest, then? I mean, seriously...

++Shagrat for being the last orc standing.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Anemic voting results:
Gorbag-2 Shagrat-3

Next: Grima Wormtongue vs. Queen Beruthiel

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

You know what troubles me? The fact that for the second time when you have a woman in this contest, she stands again against somebody whom I really can not not vote. (I hope I was clear ;) )

++Wormtongue

As a side note: I just love one picture of him, by John Montelone, where he is bald (or, mostly, at least). I did not imagine him like that when reading the book, but I like this portrayal of him. (In fact, I was sort of surprised by the white-faced long-haired Severus Snape from the TT movie...)

[Thinlómien]

++Wormtongue

Wormtongue is quite nice. (Err... "nice"? :D)

And I never liked Queen Berúthiel, even though I like her husband even less.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Wormtongue is quite nice. (Err... "nice"? :D)

Well, but I think that's actually very well phrased :)

[Andsigil]

++Wormtongue

[Durelin]

++Queen Beruthiel

Because she is a badass cat-lady, and thus an idol of mine.

She is just so unique of a nasty person. I mean, really. Cats as spies? Being put out to sea with a bunch of cats (that must have been interesting)? Where else are you going to find that?

Wormtongue is much more typical -- the little toady who turns on his master in the end. He does the dirty work...Queen Beruthiel has her cats do the dirty work. Much cooler.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Legate of Amon Lanc
You know what troubles me? The fact that for the second time when you have a woman in this contest, she stands again against somebody whom I really can not not vote.

Also, Thuringwethil , and presumably the cats, were females.
Not good results so far for the ladies.

+ + Queen Beruthiel
Especially if she and her spies were rescued off South
Gondor and caused even more problems there.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Also, Thuringwethil , and presumably the cats, were females.
Well, I thought about the cats as well, but they are such a mass that who knows - although, okay, perhaps the single cat is clear at least. And as for the other female, I meant Thuringwethil. Who is the other...

...ah, yes. Shelob, of course. Okay, I probably got a bit confused, not thinking about her, for I was trying to remember humanoid females at first.

[wilwarin538]

++Wormtongue

Because I've always loved him, despite his intense creepiness, and have no idea who Queen Beruthiel is, thought I'm sure I probably should, haha.

[Morthoron]

Didn't I read that Queen Beruthiel was carried about with her feline familiars on a sort of stretcher by servants? Wouldn't that make her mode of transportation a cat litter?

Ummm..sorry, I was reaching on that one.

Anyway, ++Wormtongue

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Queen Beruthiel

Because I'm getting sick of the mice that have decided to invade our basement. And Wormtongue would be just another rat.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Grima Wormtongue-5 Queen Beruthiel-3

Next, the penultimate first round match:
Bolg (who possibly has an even greater aversion
to bears than Stephen Colbert) vs. Morgoth

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Morgoth is interesting, but Bolg has a cool father and cool bodyguard and in the Middle-Earth: The Balrog cards he has a picture where he looks like a weird green Orc with a yellow horned helmet, but I like the picture. And he fought Beorn and was killed, whereas Morgoth fought Fingolfin and was not. Now say, who is cooler...

++Bolg

Orcs are nice.

[Andsigil]

A single orc, who wouldn't even be here had it not been for the Father of All Evil in ME vs. The Father of All Evil in ME?

I have to go with ++Mr Bauglir.

[skip spence]

++Morgoth the Marrer

Who was Bolg again?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Bolg

He met his death like a man (well, an orc)
unlike weasely Morgoth hiding at the bottom
of his keep and letting his minions get whacked
(even the noble dragons)!

[wilwarin538]

++ Morgoth

Gotta love the crazy psycho bad guys....

and I don't know who Bolg is, :D

[Groin Redbeard]

Bolg sounds like an Orc who would sit on a pile of Crispy Cream Doughnuts and eat 'till he busts. The book doesn't mention anything scary about him at all; the only thing it says is that his bodyguards were big and strong.

++Morgoth

[Nerwen]

A tough one:

Bolg is certainly a tragic victim of the ursine menace and the son of that Orc with the really cool name... but there wouldn't have been much of a story without

++Morgoth.

[the phantom]

Well, hmm... Based on accomplishments you'd have to go with Morgoth.

Bolg could not contend with Beorn. Morgoth successfully competed against all the Valar for a long time.

Bolg was unable to win the Lonely Mountain from a small army of men, elves, and dwarves. Morgoth was able to hold sway over most of ME for a time, and then came back and took over lots of it again, snatching it from some of the greatest men, elves, and dwarves ever.

So really, if Bolg is going to win, it has to be based on something other than talent and power and cunning and deeds and stature etc.

Personality perhaps?

Nah... I just can't bring myself to vote Bolg over Morgoth. Bolg just isn't that impressive. Azog and Grishnakh are both way better, so if I'm going to pick an orc over the master of evil, there are better choices.

++Morgoth

[Morthoron]

++Melkor Morgoth Bauglir

Only the coolest Tolkien characters get nicks.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Morgoth-7 Bolg-2

Next: Two wild and crazy orcs vying for
the right to challenge Melkor Belegurth.
Hint to the winner of this match: Just say
"Ringil! Ringil! Ringil! to
psych M out.

Azog vs. Grishnakh


? Will a father/son orc combo fare as
well as an elf father/son duo? (0ne for two)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nah, while I like Azog, and I like him far more than Bolg; and while I really disliked Grishnákh in the beginning (but just because he opposed Uglúk and he was such a not-having-his-own-mind servant), I developed some liking for him later. He is cunning in some way, although even that makes him sort of disgusting. But heck, he is not really that bad as a character. I would not be keen on becoming friends with him if I met him, but if it goes for voting...

++Grishnákh

[wilwarin538]

Definitely

++Grishnákh

Awesomest name, and totally wonderful at being evil!

[Andsigil]

Oh, come on, ladies and gents. Azog was a warrior king who slew at least two presumably tough dwarves in the form of Nain and Thrór. He also showed a particularly inventive and nasty personality in the subsequent mutilation of the latter said corpse.

Grishnákh displayed the strength of his sword arm by killing... er... kidnapping two hobbits and, umm, getting killed by a spear in the back whilst skulking off. :rolleyes:

++Azog

http://www.elfenomeno.com/imag/fans/eomer_azanulbizar.jpg

[Groin Redbeard]

Thank you Andsigil. Azog is the most despicable orc in history!:mad: He deserves everyone's hatred as being the most despicable orc ever. Death and Azog deserved each other, thank God that Dain II Ironfoot brought them together.:D

Azog was a warrior king who slew at least two presumably tough dwarves in the form of Nain and Thrór.We don't know if Azog killed Nain with his own hands; Nain went into Moria alone and was rolled out in two pieces, one of Azog's soldiers could have done it. Thrór was also battle worn when he faced Azog; still, it was an accomplishment, Grishnakh never gave us anything in reference to his achievements.


++Azog

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Azog certainly had a more successful
resume then Grishnakh. Exactly where
would he have gone had he escaped from the
Eotheod anyway, given that he was wrong
about the hobbits having the Ring? On foot
and across Anduin to a not happy Sauron or
flown back by a nazgul?

+ + Azog

[the phantom]

Both of these orcs are worthy competitors. Grishnakh is slippery evil, and played a rather important role in LotR.

But I've got to go with Azog here. He was responsible for starting the War of the Dwarves and the Orcs, and he was horribly evil.
Nar stayed near by for many days in hiding. One day he heard a loud shout and the blare of a horn, and a body was flung out on the steps. Fearing that it was Thror, he began to creep near, but there came a voice from within the gate:
'Come on, beardling! We can see you. But there is no need to be afraid today. We need you as a messenger.'
Then Nar came up, and found that it was indeed the body of Thror, but the head was severed and lay face downward. As he knelt there, he heard orc-laughter in the shadows, and the voice said:
'If beggars will not wait at the door, but sneak in to try thieving, that is what we do to them. If any of your people poke their foul beards in here again, they will fare the same. Go and tell them so! But if his family wish to know who is now king here, the name is written on his face. I wrote it! I killed him! I am the master!'
Then Nar turned the head and saw branded on the brow in Dwarf-runes so that he could read it the name AZOG. That name was branded in his heart and in the hearts of all the Dwarves afterwards. Nar stooped to take the head, but the voice of Azog said:
'Drop it! Be off! Here's your fee, beggar-beard.' A small bag struck him. It held a few coins of little worth.
Weeping, Nar fled down the Silverlode; but he looked back once and saw that Orcs had come from the gate and were hacking up the body and flinging the pieces to the black crows.
What a ridiculously evil chap. Not only did he kill Thror, but he branded his name across Thror's face in Dwarf-runes in order to torture and taunt his family.

++Azog

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh, come on, ladies and gents. Azog was a warrior king who slew at least two presumably tough dwarves in the form of Nain and Thrór. He also showed a particularly inventive and nasty personality in the subsequent mutilation of the latter said corpse.
I am not so sure as to whether Náin was tough. He seemed like a scared old man to me. But anyway... hey, nice picture, Andsigil!

Grishnákh displayed the strength of his sword arm by killing... er... kidnapping two hobbits and, umm, getting killed by a spear in the back whilst skulking off. :rolleyes:
Well, he was not a warrior, he was a commander, but not a battle commander, I'd say; and a sort of sneaky-guy.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Azog-4 Grisnakh-2

Second Round:
(5) Carcharoth vs. Eol (3)
(7) Scatha the Worm vs. Tom (0)

(3) Smaug vs. Master of Laketown (2)
(5) The Witch King vs. Sauron (7)

(4) Ar-Pharazon vs. Glaurung (5)
(3) Bill Ferny vs. William (4)

(3) Shagrat vs. Grima Wormtongue (4)
(4) Morgoth vs. Azog (4)

Of the contestants:
4 men
3 dragons
2 trolls
2 orcs
1 vala
1 maia
1 elf
1 wolf
1 nazgul

Next:

Carcharoth vs. Eol

[Andsigil]

I've actually never thought of Eöl as evil, but dark. I'm not sure how much sense that makes, but it's the best I can do. This semi-abstract picture of Eöl and Aredhel by Tom Loback captures the feel for me:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/E%C3%B6l_and_Aredhel.jpg/453px-E%C3%B6l_and_Aredhel.jpg

In any event, as a fellow bladesmith, I have to go with ++Eöl.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I've actually never thought of Eöl as evil, but dark. I'm not sure how much sense that makes, but it's the best I can do.
It makes sense, at least for me.

Hmm. I think, to be really objective - or, rather: to be really subjective; I should read the tale of Eöl again. On first thought, I look Carcey more. But let's see... I may decide about my vote later.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Voting time extended for 12 hours +.

[Morthoron]

**Eol

Perhaps the most intriguing character in all the Silmarillion.

[the phantom]

I'm fine with either one of them. The fact that Eol was responsible for creating the best sword ever, the "Iron of Death" or "Iron of the Flaming Star", which led to Turin being named Mormegil (the "Black Sword"), tips the scales in favor of the Elf-smith. But the other is a WW so you can't go wrong with him either.

++Eol

[Nerwen]

++Carcharoth

Eöl is cool, in a creepy way... but someone has to vote for the WW.:smokin:

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Carcharoth

I like to think Frau Blucher (horses neigh)
would have voted for him.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The fact that Eol was responsible for creating the best sword ever, the "Iron of Death" or "Iron of the Flaming Star", which led to Turin being named Mormegil (the "Black Sword"), tips the scales in favor of the Elf-smith.
Well, yes, this is true. If for anything, I would vote him because of this. However, as Nerwen said,
someone has to vote for the WW.:smokin:

So

++Carcharoth

And also simply because I believe Eöl is not that good to get into another round; and Carcey has, in my opinion, less chance of winning the next one.

I'm leaving this open, if somebody else votes, though.

[Morthoron]

And also simply because I believe Eöl is not that good to get into another round; and Carcey has, in my opinion, less chance of winning the next one.

Hmmm...far be it from me to question your logic, however murky it may be. ;)

But I do think Eol is a formidable candidate to move further on in the combat. He was as complex a character study as any other elf save for Feanor, perhaps. One of the greatest smiths -- AND a spellcaster as well? We get too few instances in the Tolkien's corpus of elvish magic not in tandem with imbued items (like palantiri, silmarils, swords and such). We know of Luthien and Finrod's songs of power, but what shadowy powers lurked in the darkness of Nan Elmoth? Spells of bewilderment, webs of deceit entangling hapless prey. It is certainly something I'd like to hear more about.

Add to that Eol's surly character, his dark visage and black thoughts, it certainly can be argued that the current popular image of a 'Dark Elf' resides almost solely in Tolkien's description of the cunning and cranky maker of galvorn, Anguirel and Anglachel.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

But I do think Eol is a formidable candidate to move further on in the combat. He was as complex a character study as any other elf save for Feanor, perhaps. One of the greatest smiths -- AND a spellcaster as well? We get too few instances in the Tolkien's corpus of elvish magic not in tandem with imbued items (like palantiri, silmarils, swords and such). We know of Luthien and Finrod's songs of power, but what shadowy powers lurked in the darkness of Nan Elmoth? Spells of bewilderment, webs of deceit entangling hapless prey. It is certainly something I'd like to hear more about.
Yes, yes, you are right... hmm... well, but like I said, you see, I would have to read about him once again to make it more "subjective". It is true also, that he was one of the Firsborn - right? He certainly was interesting in some aspects... hmm... well. We shall see how the voting goes. Nevertheless, for me, I still don't like him as much as most of the Orcs :)

[Groin Redbeard]

But I do think Eol is a formidable candidate to move further on in the combat. He was as complex a character study as any other elf save for Feanor, perhaps. One of the greatest smiths -- AND a spellcaster as well? We get too few instances in the Tolkien's corpus of elvish magic not in tandem with imbued items (like palantiri, silmarils, swords and such). We know of Luthien and Finrod's songs of power, but what shadowy powers lurked in the darkness of Nan Elmoth? Spells of bewilderment, webs of deceit entangling hapless prey. It is certainly something I'd like to hear more about.Sometimes substantive can be taken as complex. I don't need to know why Eol did what he did so long as he did them. Carcharoth is a good evil character to vote for; besides, you know where he stands.;)

++Carcharoth

[Macalaure]

Carcharoth entered Doriath when he wanted to.

Eöl had to pay a sword to leave it. ;)

++Carcharoth

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

++Carcharoth
Not voting Eöl even though he was a good friend with Dwarves, Mr. Redbeard? ;)

Eöl had to pay a sword to leave it. ;)
Ah, yes! But now that actually is a part of the story I like. Hmm... Now it really makes me think I should have voted differently.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

In a strong finish Carcharoth
(metaphorically) throws Eol
off a cliff:
Carcharoth- 5 Eol-3

Next:
Scatha the Worm vs. Tom

[Morthoron]

Sometimes substantive can be taken as complex.

substantive: having or expressing substance, belonging to the real nature or essential part of a thing; essential.

complex: a whole made up of complicated or interrelated parts.

I suppose you knew what you were saying; however, I don't see the comparative context of 'substantive' as opposed to 'complex', particularly since complexity may be construed as a substantive component of Eol's nature.

[Groin Redbeard]

Not voting Eöl even though he was a good friend with Dwarves, Mr. Redbeard? ;)This is a bad guy thread. Being friends with Dwarves doesn't make you a bad guy!:D

I suppose you knew what you were saying; however, I don't see the comparative context of 'substantive' as opposed to 'complex', particularly since complexity may be construed as a substantive component of Eol's nature.What I meant that Eol's character is difficult and obscure (difficult and obscure being synonyms of complex). Still, I guess I should have chosen one of those two words instead. That way people won't jump over me by pointing out that I do/don't know what I mean:p.

[the phantom]

Out of the trolls I like William better, so I can't see advancing the lesser of two trolls as he is up against a dragon. Dragons are way cooler. Scatha must've been pretty tough to take stuff from a bunch of dwarves and the ancestors of the Rohirrim.

++Scatha

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Agreed with tp. It's not such a pity if Tom goes - in fact, I liked him the least of the three trolls - and simply, Scatha is cool. Cool name, cool dragon, cool teeth, cool Fram...

++Scatha

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Slow responses so time extended to vote
for 12 + hours.

[Thinlómien]

++Scatha

Has a cooler name. :smokin: ... :rolleyes: ... :D

[Morthoron]

++Scatha

[Groin Redbeard]

++Scatha

I agree with Lommy; Scatha is a cool name!:D

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I've read about William in The Hobbit,
I've seen the relative intelligence of William
and Tom in The Hobbit, and I can tell you
Tom is no William.

+ + Scatha

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Scatha the Worm-7 Tom-0

Tom walks off in dusgust into the
rising sun munching on a leg of mutton.

Next: With an admonition to consider
a poet's observation that
Good fences make good neighbors

Smaug vs. Master of Laketown

[Morthoron]

++Smaug

The dragon roasts the bureaucrat in protest over an increase in property tax on his estate in Erebor.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Of course I like Smaug a lot. But, in order to show that I like the other guy as well, and also in order to stand for my PT, I vote

++The Master of Laketown

[Andsigil]

++Smaug the Golden

http://www.dragon-realms.com/gallery/albums/Serpenthor/Smaug.sized.jpg

[Eönwë]

As much as I hate not to be "A Voice That Gainsayeth" in this case (yes, Legate), I think that i have to go for:

++Smaug

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Master of Laketown

as he "masterfully" uses a credit and mortgage
crisis in Rhovannion to call in Smaug's
overdue mortgage payment (caused by a crash
in the price of gold and precious gems on the
Gondorian futures market).

[Durelin]

++Smaug

The Master of Laketown was just a greedy s.o.b. Smaug was a greedy (naturally) dragon.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Smaug-3 Master of Laketown-2

Next:

The Witch King vs. Sauron

[Andsigil]

There wouldn't be any Witch King if it weren't for Sauron.

++Sauron