Did Maedhros kill Laughter?

[Urwen]

But wise were still concerned that Maedhros revealed his growing strength too early "Always some new evil might be born in Angband."

_________________________________

....for Evil breath came to Dor-Lomin...and when Turin rose, he asked for Lalaith...and when Morwen came, he said "I'm not sick anymore and I want to see Urwen;but why can't I call her Lalaith anymore?"
"Because Lalaith's dead and no more laughter is here." answered Morwen.


Really,did Maedhros kill Laughter?

[Pitchwife]

No, Morgoth did.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Indeed. I don't think that questions like that have much sense - it's like asking "Did Elrond kill Gandalf?" or something like that.

[the phantom]

So the base question is, if everyone had just given up and stopped opposing Morgoth, would he have let them live?

Given what Tolkien says about his nature in Morgoth's Ring- no. Morgoth wished to destroy all life. Ask the question about Sauron on the other hand- perhaps.

[Pitchwife]

Or, in more words: the only way Maedhros could construably be blamed for Lalaith's death would be if by better timing his attacks he could have defeated Morgoth in time to prevent the ill wind and the plague being sent. But as Mandos made clear when the Noldor left Valinor, they never had a hope of overcoming Morgoth without the help of the Valar, no matter how great their prowess and courage and how cunning their strategies might be. So if anybody else than Morgoth is to blame, it would be the Valar for setting him free in the first place, and for taking so long to come to the help of the Eldar and Edain after his return to Middle-earth.

EDIT: x-ed with the phantom.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

So the base question is, if everyone had just given up and stopped opposing Morgoth, would he have let them live?

Given what Tolkien says about his nature in Morgoth's Ring- no. Morgoth wished to destroy all life. Ask the question about Sauron on the other hand- perhaps.

Oh yes, Sauron would have been happy to have everyone as his slaves. Especially The Wise.

[Urwen]

No, Morgoth did.

Yes,but he would have no reason to send plague if Maedhros never formed his Union. Therefore, Maedhros is to be blamed for death of Lalaith.:D

[Inziladun]

Yes,but he would have no reason to send plague if Maedhros never formed his Union. Therefore, Maedhros is to be blamed for death of Lalaith.:D

By that logic, it could be said that Aragorn, who by his use of the Stone of Orthanc revealed himself to Sauron, caused the deaths of untold hundreds or thousands of Gondorians and Rohirrim at the Battle of the Pelannor.
After all, if Aragorn hadn't done so, Sauron would not have set his plans in motion so soon, and the attack probably wouldn't have proceeded as as it did.

And what of Bilbo, who roused Smaug from his slumber? Smaug went on to destroy Esgaroth. Was Bilbo responsible for that?

[Urwen]

Sauron was destroyed. Smaug was killed. Was plague made harmless?:p

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Sauron was destroyed. Smaug was killed. Was plague made harmless?:p

What does this have to do with anything? It doesn't make sense to arbitrarily assign responsibility to some agent down the chain of causation on the basis of some positive, yet entirely unrelated, consequences of a later date.

Still, that Lalaith was always accidentally stepping on bugs on the step of her house so from their point of view - thanks Maedhros! :p

[Urwen]

Still, that Lalaith was always accidentally stepping on bugs on the step of her house so from their point of view - thanks Maedhros! :p

wrath wrath warath... How dare you insult Lalaith ?!

Accidentally stepping on bugs. Unlike Maedhros, she never stepped on heads, nor caused blood of Tuor and her other kinsmen to flow down the landscape of Dor-Lomin!

see for yourself:

Elwing: Dude,had cousin of my husband's father ever practised kinslaying?
Maedhros: Not that I remember,no...;)

[Nerwen]

Accidentally stepping on bugs. Unlike Maedhros, she never stepped on heads, nor caused blood of Tuor and her other kinsmen to flow down the landscape of Dor-Lomin!

Well, exactly. Maedhros ends up having quite enough terrible deeds to his name without you throwing in extremely indirect and dubious stuff like that.

And you see, Urwen, about the bugs Lalaith stepped on– I happen to know one of them was a butterfly. Had that butterfly only lived, many insect-generations later one of its remote descendants would have flittered in front of Nienor's eyes and distracted her from being hypnotised by Glaurung.

There you have it: the incest and suicide of her brother and sister are clearly all Lalaith's fault.

I rest my case.:smokin:

[Urwen]

You're babbling nonsense. Besides, had Lalaith lived, she would put herself between Glaurung and Niniel. So, I think the things for which you blame my namesake are actually Maedhros' fault:p

[Pitchwife]

There's always someone else for you to blame... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCt_uk9hHqA)

[Nerwen]

You're babbling nonsense.

I think not, my young friend. You will find the fragment Narn i Gwilwileth Luin in Part 4 of The History of Middle Earth, Volume 10, as part of Note 12(b) to the long metaphysical dialogue Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.

Besides, had Lalaith lived, she would put herself between Glaurung and Niniel.

...become spellbound, lost her memory, stood by helplessly while Nienor got the same treatment, then... oh... let me see... they could both have fallen for their brother, and killed each other out of jealously! How's that?:cool:

[Pitchwife]

...become spellbound, lost her memory, stood by helplessly while Nienor got the same treatment, then... oh... let me see... they could both have fallen for their brother, and killed each other out of jealously! How's that?:cool:
Of course not. Don't you see? If Lalaith had survived, she'd have tied Glaurung into a knot before going on to single-handedly defeat Morgoth and retrieve the remaining two Silmaril while fending off the futile attacks of the seven sons of Feanor with the other hand, and then... well, I don't know how she could have topped that, but she was just that freaking awesome that Tolkien simply had to kill her off before she could ruin the whole Silmarillion.:p

[Inziladun]

...become spellbound, lost her memory, stood by helplessly while Nienor got the same treatment, then... oh... let me see... they could both have fallen for their brother, and killed each other out of jealously! How's that?:cool:

I heard that's what PJ's doing for the film version....

[Nerwen]

Of course not. Don't you see? If Lalaith had survived, she'd have tied Glaurung into a knot before going on to single-handedly defeat Morgoth and retrieve the remaining two Silmaril while fending off the futile attacks of the seven sons of Feanor with the other hand, and then... well, I don't know how she could have topped that, but she was just that freaking awesome that Tolkien simply had to kill her off before she could ruin the whole Silmarillion.:p

Ahem. I think the least you can do is refer to the book by its true title: The Lalaithion.

[Eorl of Rohan]

Lalaith ... become spellbound, lost her memory, stood by helplessly while Nienor got the same treatment, then... oh... let me see... they could both have fallen for their brother, and killed each other out of jealously! How's that?

+rolls over in tears crying from laughing too much+

+sobers up+ Except the reason Turin fell for Niniel in the first place MIGHT possibly have been because he loved Lalaith very much in their childhood
and was probably unconsciously seeking someone like her in appearance and temperament as a psychological compensation for her loss. Now THAT would make for a happy ending. ;)

[Mnemosyne]

Really,did Maedhros kill Laughter?

Yes.

He scowled too much, and he had this uncanny ability to give you The Look whenever you were making jokes behind his back about how his robes really clashed with his hair, and if that doesn't kill Laughter I don't know what does...





...Wrong thread?

(Would contribute, but I can't think of anything to say that hasn't already been said.)

[the phantom]

It's the fault of Lalaith's great great grandparents for moving to a location within plague range of the most evil spot in all of Arda. It's the fault of the elves living up there for inviting the mortals to move there. It's the fault of the Valar for letting Morgoth loose. It's the fault of Eru for creating Morgoth. It's the fault of Morgoth himself for releasing the plague.

After all of that, it's difficult to give any sizable portion of blame to Maedhros. But I'll try, darn it! Or at least I would if it weren't for the fact that he is incredibly cool.

Plus- Turin didn't die, did he? Did Morwen? No. They were strong. Lalaith, on the other hand- she was a victim of her own weak nature, and was deservedly removed before she could drag down her mighty family.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Maybe someone could move this to Mirth? Then I'll explain how Lalaith is actually a Warg.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I was thinking the same thing, Eomer - this thread has definitely taken a turn into the mirthful! Consider it done.

[Urwen]

Lalaith ... become spellbound, lost her memory, stood by helplessly while Nienor got the same treatment, then... oh... let me see... they could both have fallen for their brother, and killed each other out of jealously! How's that?


Not exactly. She could look in Niniel's eyes instead of Glaurung's. There's no need for her to look in Glaurungs eyes, only to prevent their eye contact. And for that,she is allowed to turn her back on Glaurung.

[Nerwen]

[/I]Not exactly. She could look in Niniel's eyes instead of Glaurung's. There's no need for her to look in Glaurungs eyes, only to prevent their eye contact. And for that,she is allowed to turn her back on Glaurung.

Turn her back on Glaurung?:eek:

Are you sure that's entirely wise? Really?

[Pitchwife]

Not exactly. She could look in Niniel's eyes instead of Glaurung's. There's no need for her to look in Glaurungs eyes, only to prevent their eye contact. And for that,she is allowed to turn her back on Glaurung.
Turn her back on Glaurung?:eek:

Are you sure that's entirely wise? Really?
No, but I suppose she could have kept an eye on Glaurung in a mirror (which would render his gaze harmless) while drawing the Sword of Gryffindor from Niniel's garter...

[Urwen]

Hah. You know nothing.....

Lalaith and Nienor on Amon Ethir. Glaurung comes.

Lalaith:Sister, what is this?

Nienor:It's dragon of a foul one. Run!

Lalaith: No ned to run,sister. Watch...

Lalaith gets out a flask of water from river Gulduin and extends it to Glaurung.

Lalaith:It's harmless.

Glaurung drinks and falls into slumber. Lalaith and her sister sneak away quietly...

Beat this cunning!:D

[Nerwen]

Hah. You know nothing.....

Lalaith and Nienor on Amon Ethir. Glaurung comes.

Lalaith:Sister, what is this?

Nienor:It's dragon of a foul one. Run!

Lalaith: No ned to run,sister. Watch...

Lalaith gets out a flask of water from river Gulduin and extends it to Glaurung.

Oh. If you refer to the stream in Mirkwood, may I remind you that it lies around fifteen hundred miles to the east of Lalaith's current location, with a couple of rather impressive mountain ranges in between, and that it quite possibly isn't even enchanted yet?

Lalaith:It's harmless.

Glaurung drinks and falls into slumber. Lalaith and her sister sneak away quietly...

Beat this cunning!:D

Welll... I can't say I'd find it easy to deal with a real live dragon myself. But I'll tell you what, my very first step would be to reject out of hand any plan that relied on the dragon's being a complete nitwit. Seems just a trifle over-optimistic.;)

In other word: how did she get the water, and why did he drink it?

Over to you.:smokin:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oh. If you refer to the stream in Mirkwood, may I remind you that it lies around fifteen hundred miles to the east of Lalaith's current location, with a couple of rather impressive mountain ranges in between, and that it quite possibly isn't even enchanted yet?



Welll... I can't say I'd find it easy to deal with a real live dragon myself. But I'll you what, my very first step would be to reject out of hand any plan that relied on the dragon's being a complete nitwit. Seems just a trifle over-optimistic.;)

In other word: how did she get the water, and why did he drink it?

Over to you.:smokin:

Right, so I'm mainly here to be a Nerwen cheerleader. :D Goooo Nerwen!

[Urwen]

I think not, my young friend. You will find the fragment Narn i Gwilwileth Luin in Part 4 of The History of Middle Earth, Volume 10, as part of Note 12(b) to the long metaphysical dialogue Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.

Prove it. Give me that text here and I'll believe you.

*crosses arms,waits*

[mormegil]

I'm sending this thread to Novice and Newcomers as it doesn't really belong in Mirth.

[Nogrod]

I'm sending this thread to Novice and Newcomers as it doesn't really belong in Mirth.Where next? Haudh-en-Ndengin, the lost topics? :D

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I dunno, Morm, I found it pretty mirthful.

[Blind Guardian]

What is a mirth?

Gladness and gaiety, especially when expressed by laughter.

Doesn't make sense. Sorry :p

[the phantom]

Anyone up for a challenge? Let's try to turn this into such a discussion that they will have to move it back into the books forum.

Tolkien discusses Lalaith's revised role in the tale, HoME XVI, sec A, vii Narn i Chîn Húrin early drafts and revisions-
Lalaith was problematic in the early versions of "Narn i Chîn Húrin", as the younger sibling already provided the necessary final tragedy. It was an essential element that both Húrin and Túrin be isolated from the family, thus interaction with Lalaith was certainly not an option. The only place left for her was in the company of Morwen and Niniel, but Morwen also needed to be separate in the end. For a time I paired Lalaith with Niniel, placing them both under the dragon's spell, but upon reaching Brethil I could not shake the feeling of redundancy, as only one sister was necessary to provide the horrific finale.

In later drafts I omitted Lalaith completely, as it seemed the most obvious answer, but later I was struck by the idea that an early death would be more in harmony with the sort of tale I wished to tell. My first solution was for the dragon to cause her death at Nargothrond, adding another layer to his rivalry with the house of Húrin. However, such an event would not impact Túrin at all, as there was no logical way for him to receive such news while maintaining his ignorance of the identity of Niniel. It was most important to me that Túrin, as the primary character of the tragedy, experience this death if it was to be included. In the end I settled upon a childhood plague, simultaneously writing in the special relationship between Lalaith and Túrin, which had not been necessary before. The end result was to my liking, for it also served to make Lalaith more tolerable, as in the earlier tales she was somewhat annoying as an adult, with her incessant laughter and cheeriness through such awful events.

[Lalaith]

I've been trying to keep a lofty Manwe-like impassivity over this discussion...I even bit my tongue into silence over this Lalaith is actually a Warg
but now even Tolkien himself is joining in....
she was somewhat annoying as an adult, with her incessant laughter and cheeriness through such awful events.
Well....REALLY.

[Loslote]

...*giggle*

Anyway. *cough*

Yes. He did kill her. It's a little-known, VERY little-documented fact, but he had a grudge on Turin and so sneaked all the way over to his house to kill his baby sister. A cos he's just awesome that way. :rolleyes:

Really, though, Lalaith's death had nothing to do with the Feanorians. For one, why in the world would Maedhros have wanted to kill a little girl? For two, Maedhros (while awesome) did not have the ability to predict the future or to read Morgoth's mind. How was he to know a) that Morgoth would send a plauge or b) that it would kill this one little mortal girl in particular? He wouldn't have known a) and he probably wouldn't have cared about b) except in the context that she was one of many. I think, in order to say that he "killed" her, he had to have actually cared/known about her death. :rolleyes:

[Urwen]

Oh,yes. "Bye bye Lalaith I never liked you!":rolleyes:

Don't you care about her just a little?! For I do!!!!!

[Nerwen]

Oh,yes. "Bye bye Lalaith I never liked you!":rolleyes:

Don't you care about her just a little?! For I do!!!!!

Sure, it's a very sad part of Turin's story (as are most of the other parts). But I believe seven people now have already given serious answers to your original question. To quote just one:

It doesn't make sense to arbitrarily assign responsibility to some agent down the chain of causation on the basis of some positive, yet entirely unrelated, consequences of a later date.

Since your only counter-arguments have been that a.) Maedhros killed other people, b.) Lalaith might have been awesome had she lived to grow up and c.) she was cute, I don't think you can blame the rest of us for turning it into a joke.

[Nerwen]

I think not, my young friend. You will find the fragment Narn i Gwilwileth Luin in Part 4 of The History of Middle Earth, Volume 10, as part of Note 12(b) to the long metaphysical dialogue Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.
Prove it. Give me that text here and I'll believe you.

*crosses arms,waits*

Here:

Finrod sighed, "Aye, adaneth, but many are the chances of this world, and hope or ruin may turn on the flap of a butterfly's wings."

"These are dark sayings," said Andreth. "Ye Eldar speak ever in riddles."

"Nay," said Finrod, "for foresight is given to me of many things, though seldom of joy. I beheld as a vision that a choice will come to a girl-child, the first-born daughter of a great warrior of the folk of Hador Lórindol and Adanel the Wise, whether to destroy a fair blue butterfly that resteth on the grass before her. For if she but let it live, in time to come one of its kin shall flit before the eyes of her sister and deliver her from the malice of the Dragon who would ensnare her; yet if she put forth her foot to crush it, her sister will be lost and grief beyond telling come upon her house.

'And I fear that the Marrer, working even through the whim of this child...'
HoMe X Part IV: Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. This is a fragment, included in the appendix only, as it becomes indecipherable after this point, and it's not clear how Tolkien intended it to fit into the main text of the Athrabeth, or even if he did.

[Urwen]

Haahhaaa. If it's first-born,as Finrod says,then it can't be Lalaith,because if you have any knowledge you'll know that Turin was first-born, Lalaith second-born and Nienor third born of hin Hurin!:p

[Eorl of Rohan]

Haahhaaa. If it's first-born,as Finrod says,then it can't be Lalaith,because if you have any knowledge you'll know that Turin was first-born, Lalaith second-born and Nienor third born of hin Hurin!:p

Urwen. Ever since you answered "Feanor is empty-headed!!!!!!" to my sardonical reply on Olwe's shortcomings,
I believed that you were being purposefully childish for a joke. Now I am not so sure. Please laugh and tell us that you were having fun at our expense. ;)

I beheld as a vision that a choice will come to a girl-child, the first-born daughter of a great warrior of the folk of Hador Lórindol and Adanel the Wise

FIRSTBORN DAUGHTER. Excuse us if we were not aware that Turin was a GIRL. And YOU accuse NERWEN of ignorance? :eek: +chokes+
.

[Nerwen]

Haahhaaa. If it's first-born,as Finrod says,then it can't be Lalaith,because if you have any knowledge you'll know that Turin was first-born, Lalaith second-born and Nienor third born of hin Hurin!:p

I'd assume the text is referring to Lalaith as the first–born daughter rather than the eldest child– although its possible that at the time he wrote this Tolkien did intend her to be the eldest, as he was in the habit of reworking his "Legendarium" and shifting around the details in just this way.*

Anyway, the editor (Christopher Tolkien) seems to think it's about Lalaith:
This brief passage, scribbled on the back of an old gas bill and subsequently used to line the drawer in which my father kept his socks, contains not only an examination of the role of causality in Middle-earth but what appears to be a startling re-assessment of the part played by Húrin's daughter Urwen or Lalaith in the eventual fate of her siblings.

*Though perhaps not to the extent of making Túrin a girl...

[Nerwen]

Oh, and Eorl and Urwen– please don't get into a punch-up now.

It would make me very sad if the mods closed this thread.:(

[Urwen]

I was simply stating their birth order!:confused:

[Eorl of Rohan]

I was simply stating their birth order!:confused:

I'm sorry, Urwen :p I guess your cruel assessment of my precious lovey-dovey Feanor has made me somewhat bitter :p

[Loslote]

*Though perhaps not to the extent of making Túrin a girl...

Whyever not? You must admit, it would make for interesting reading. ;)

And, Urwen, in case they were a bit vague in their correction, it was the first-born daughter, not the first-born child. This makes a big difference; for instance, in some cultures the first-born son inherits even if the first-born child was a daughter. In this case, it was Morwen and Hurin's first-born daughter that crushed the butterfly, not the first-born son. Did that help? You seemed a bit confused still. :)

EDIT: PS, this thread is becomming rather rude. "If you have any knowledge" in particular. Quite rude, and maybe not the best move if you want us to take you seriously. Just sayin'.

[Urwen]

I'm sorry, Urwen :p I guess your cruel assessment of my precious lovey-dovey Feanor has made me somewhat bitter :p

And your treatment of Lalaith has made me angry!:mad:

[Nerwen]

Urwen, I don't think Eorl of Rohan has said anything unkind about Lalaith. And if you mean the posters on this thread in general– well, I've already explained why:

Since your only counter-arguments have been that a.) Maedhros killed other people, b.) Lalaith might have been awesome had she lived to grow up and c.) she was cute, I don't think you can blame the rest of us for turning it into a joke.

Speaking of which, got anything better yet?

Also, our hypothetical showdown between Lalaith and Glaurung is still in progress. (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=628842&postcount=28) When we last visited them, Lalaith had somehow obtained a flask of water from the Enchanted Stream in Mirkwood and had somehow convinced Glaurung to drink from it. It's that "somehow" aspect of the situation that we're now trying to clear up.

Well?:Merisu:

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Ok, let me explain how Lalaith can actually be considered a Warg.

There’s a record of this man called Kador. He was a border guard stationed somewhat east of Hithlum. Anyway, he had an appointment with a comrade of his named Vreth at a tavern in Dor-Lomin; they met there every few months or so to catch up with news and share some drinks. It was an all right place where not too much trouble could get started. So Kador walks in through the door, it’s busy enough this evening, and he spots Vreth standing at the bar with this guy. He’s a bit shorter than the two guards and he’s got unusually short hair.

So: Kador walks up and says “Hello there”. Vreth says “Kador! My good man! You made it. Get yourself a drink and I’ll be back in a minute or so. Those guys over there are just leaving and I owe them something, you see? Be right back. By the way, this is a mate of mine. Malder – he lives in this town.”

“All right” says Kador, and sees Vreth scurry away. “Nice to meet you” he says to Malder. “Likewise” says the stranger. So Kador orders some beer and waits for the bartender to get back, because he’s pretty thirsty. Anyway, Malder just says: “I hate geese.” Kador, thinking he misheard, asks the guy to repeat what he said, and he hears the same thing back, only this time in a more shrill, you might say worrying, tone. “I hate geese!”

Kador says aye, he doesn’t think much of them either, and glances over at where Vreth ran off to. He’s not too happy with the situation; Malder is just standing there, glowering at nothing in particular; his eyes seeming to bobble around like they're on springs.

Nothing happens for about 30 seconds, when Malder says: “I’ve always liked rolling-pins, though”. The beer arrives and Kador takes a long swig. He’s pretty angry with Vreth about now; why on Middle-earth did that ingrate allow this situation to happen? Travelling all this way to meet him and-

“The Lord of Dor-lomin is coming to town next week, some parade thing he’s organized. There’s all sorts of attractions” mused Malder. “Foreign wares, contests, animals for show!” Malder looked as cheerful as he had so far, his lips wobbling worryingly as he spoke. “They’ve got cages, you see, with special animals. I’m going to go and look at them”. He was shaking now, and Kador was getting pretty anxious, not even pretending to keep interest in Malder’s tale and openly seeking out the head of Vreth among the crowd.

“They have a goose!” Malder shouted. “A big, white goose, biggest in the land, you know?” Kador put the pieces together and trembled in fear. He would kill Vreth for this, he said only half-jokingly. “My little brother was killed by a goose! A huge goose with huge wings! He was only 6 years old! He couldn’t defend himself! A goose! I’m going to bring my rolling-pin, and smash that goose into paste! Then we'll see! We'll all see!” Kador was shouting for Vreth as he ran away from the bar, not even finishing his beer.



Right, it appears I’ve accidentally told you the story of how a couple of Hithlum border-guards named Kador and Malder met. But I’m sure I read in Tolkien’s letters that Lalaith is an acronym or something? Something to do with Wargs, anyway.

[Urwen]

Another scenario

Brandir: Um,Niniel...

Niniel: What?

Brandir:Will you marry me?

(Enter Lalaith, Turin, Dorlas and a bunch of others)

Brandir:Anyway,where was I?

(Lalaith shows the fair blue buttefly.It's alive.)

Lalaith:I haven't squashed it after all...


That's all, folks!

[Nerwen]

Another scenario

Brandir: Um,Niniel...

Niniel: What?

Brandir:Will you marry me?

(Enter Lalaith, Turin, Dorlas and a bunch of others)

Brandir:Anyway,where was I?

(Lalaith shows the fair blue buttefly.It's alive.)

Lalaith:I haven't squashed it after all...


That's all, folks!


So now you're saying Lalaith is to blame for her brother and sister's terrible fate anyway, whether she kills the butterfly or not?

That's quite an about-face, Urwen! I thought you liked her?:confused:

[Urwen]

I did it to point out that she didn't kill the butterfly.

[Nerwen]

I did it to point out that she didn't kill the butterfly.

But look what she's done now, Urwen! She just interrupted Brandir in the middle of proposing to Niniel! Just think, Niniel could have married him instead of Túrin, and the whole horrible tragedy could have been averted– but noooo, that Lalaith just had to barge in on them at the crucial moment and ruin everything.

Again.

And we all thought Túrin was a jinx.:eek:

[Urwen]

And one other:

Turin tries to climb up to Glaurung. Lalaith comes, accompanied by Kiki,Totoro,Kim,Jason,Cristy,Chihiro,Haku,Taran,Ei lonwy,Kathe,Cora and other heroic children


Lalaith:We came to help you!

Mwahahaha!

[the phantom]

Well now I have no idea what sub-forum this thread belongs in. I don't actually think we have a forum for this sort of thing. Create a new one?

[Urwen]

Haha. That was only a joke.

But seriously, Lalaith's death was Maedhros' fault. Need proof? Here goes....

Maedhros:I'll defeat you, Morgoth!

Morgoth(from Angband): I don't think so,loser! Mwahahaha!

Maedhros:I will!

Morgoth(snarl):Your wish!

___________________

Lalaith:I'm dying...(dies)

There you go!

[Nerwen]

Haha. That was only a joke.

But seriously, Lalaith's death was Maedhros' fault. Need proof? Here goes....

Maedhros:I'll defeat you, Morgoth!

Morgoth(from Angband): I don't think so,loser! Mwahahaha!

Maedhros:I will!

Morgoth(snarl):Your wish!

___________________

Lalaith:I'm dying...(dies)

There you go!

Eh? How does that prove anything?:confused:

[Nerwen]

Well now I have no idea what sub-forum this thread belongs in. I don't actually think we have a forum for this sort of thing. Create a new one?

I think we'd better. What could we call it, do you think?

Haha. That was only a joke.

So... you're not joking otherwise? Dear me.

[Mnemosyne]

Regarding Eomer's Lalaith-as-a-Warg theory, I'm sure the Wargs would never have allowed one of their own to suffer--in fact, I doubt that Wargs, with their superior constitution, would have even been affected by the plague.

All we have on this story is Turin's testimony, and he was delirious at the time of Lalaith's so-called "death". We actually have no eye-witness testimony that she died.

Lalaith didn't die. She just went home*.




*In fact, Lalaith (not her real name, obviously. Even Urwen was a cover for her true Wargish name) was sent to the House of Hurin to be fostered and learn somewhat of mortal ways before being called to her Higher Mission of Being Awesome and Stuff. It is said that if Turin had known of her true nature and thus believed that Lalaith Lives! (tm), her awesomeness would have been able to protect him from afar and thus prevent the curse from ever falling upon him. But Morwen believed in giving her son a healthy dose of reality, colloquially known as "Life's an Adjective's Mother**," so that that way he would be prepared to deal with fits of emo passion, talking swords, and other matters of that ilk, and so she lied to her son. That splinter that she got when Turin was riding off to be fostered was Lalaith's last reminder to tell him, and prevent the curse, but Morwen was too thick to see it and so Lalaith revoked her awesome protection even from Morwen in a fit of spite. Hurin was also aware of Lalaith's fate, but she had resolved never to protect him from any sort of curse after that one time he gave her a flea bath.

**There is a story behind this idiomatic expression, peculiar to Hithlum, but it's so esoteric that not even Carl Hostetter wanted to have anything to do with it.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Regarding Eomer's Lalaith-as-a-Warg theory, I'm sure the Wargs would never have allowed one of their own to suffer--in fact, I doubt that Wargs, with their superior constitution, would have even been affected by the plague.

Your first statement is, regrettably, unreasonable; however, your second point is worthy of consideration. Wargs are famously resistant to disease (some would argue due to their divine essence).

I'll say right now that I don't buy the Lalaith-is-warg theory. I came across it in, oh... what was it called again? Unfurnished Tales? That sounds right. It gave off a distinct scent of historical-conspiracy-theory with its talk of anagrams, acronyms, ancient maps and beared keepers of certain gates. It basically came down to the author Tolkien inserting some sort of linguistic trick into his works.

I know, right? Crazy.

But Mnemo, your point about Turin's delirium and unreliability is fascinating. This Lalaith character could, feasibly, turn up anywhere. Any other mysteries in Tolkien's works, where she could fit in?

Why am I reminded of Legolas' hare right now? :p

[Loslote]

Well now I have no idea what sub-forum this thread belongs in. I don't actually think we have a forum for this sort of thing. Create a new one?

I think we'd better. What could we call it, do you think?

I agree...maybe a forum for fangirls (and others of their kind) to squee madly in?

[Mnemosyne]

I agree...maybe a forum for fangirls (and others of their kind) to squee madly in?

...Isn't that N&N?

[Loslote]

...Isn't that N&N?

Hmm, maybe, but there is still some sense involved in some of the threads. Maybe we could eliminate the sensical aspect? Everyone for boycotting all sense in N&N, say "purple"!;)

[Nerwen]

Hmm, maybe, but there is still some sense involved in some of the threads. Maybe we could eliminate the sensical aspect? Everyone for boycotting all sense in N&N, say "purple"!;)

No– look at all the ramifications of the "Lalaith Question", each of which surely deserves its own thread. Don't you think Lalaith needs a forum all to herself?

Did Maedhros kill her? Did she kill the butterfly? Would she have grown up to be an awesome dragon-pwning Mega-Sue? Did she die at all? Was she a Warg? And what about the geese?

[Loslote]

No– look at all the ramifications of the "Lalaith Question", each of which surely deserves its own thread. Don't you think Lalaith needs a forum all to herself?

Did Maedhros kill her? Did she kill the butterfly? Would she have grown up to be an awesome dragon-pwning Mega-Sue? Did she die at all? Was she a Warg? And what about the geese?

What about the geese? They, quite simply, acted like the infamous snake and persuaded Lalaith to stomple that butterfly. Very obvious once you think about it. ;)

Actually, there's another question. Why has Wilwa not sworn undying hatred towards Lalaith? She stompled a butterfly! :eek:

[Urwen]

I've got another scenario.

(Dagor Dagorath.A bunch of plotters talk quietly)

Haleth:So, we'll betray them like Uldor betrayed us?

Lalaith: Yes, that's my idea.

Caranthir: And a good idea it is.

Beleg & Turin:Sure!

(Scene fades...)

Mwahaha!:p:D

[Nerwen]

I've got another scenario.

(Dagor Dagorath.A bunch of plotters talk quietly)

Haleth:So, we'll betray them like Uldor betrayed us?

Lalaith: Yes, that's my idea.

Caranthir: And a good idea it is.

Beleg & Turin:Sure!

(Scene fades...)

Mwahaha!:p:D

Mwahaha... what?

Urwen, mind clarifying what's supposed to be going on, and who is being betrayed? (The Valar?) I just want to get everything straight before I deliver the inevitable smackdown.:smokin:

[Nerwen]

What about the geese? They, quite simply, acted like the infamous snake and persuaded Lalaith to stomple that butterfly. Very obvious once you think about it. ;)

Of course! It must have happened something like this:

Lalaith: Ooo. Butterfwy pwetty!

[From either side, the narrow, beaked head and long serpentine of a goose thrusts into her field of vision.]

Goose 1 (hissing): Sssstomp it, Lalaith...
Goose 2 (hissing): Yesss! You know you want to....

And the rest, sadly, is history.

Actually, there's another question. Why has Wilwa not sworn undying hatred towards Lalaith? She stompled a butterfly! :eek:

Maybe she doesn't know? Someone needs to tell her, quick!

But Mnemo, your point about Turin's delirium and unreliability is fascinating. This Lalaith character could, feasibly, turn up anywhere. Any other mysteries in Tolkien's works, where she could fit in?

I can think of one. It's a long story, though:

Túrin's parents did indeed lie to him about his sister's death– not because she was a Warg, but because they didn't want him to know they had sold her to pay the doctor's bill.

They didn't have much choice. The mysterious traveller who happened to pass through Dor-lómin just when the plague was at its height offered to heal both their deathly ill children– but at a price: their daughter. [Dramatic chords!] Faced with the loss of both their offspring, Morwen and Húrin reluctantly agreed, despite their misgivings about the stranger's motives, and their doubts of his claim that all he wanted was a dear little girl to keep him company.

Little did they know justified their fears really were. This stranger was none other than... Sauron the Necromancer. [More dramatic chords!] By his dark sorcery the hapless Lalaith was transformed from an innocent child into a small but terrifying undead being– a kind of proto-Nazgûl, in fact. She served her black master faithfully for millenia, eventually becoming the Lieutenant of Morgul in the Third Age

Oh yes, didn't I mention that Sauron re-named his new servant after his old pal and colleague, the Lord of Balrogs? Well, I mean, "Lalaith" clearly wouldn't do, would it?

There you go: identity of Gothmog II solved once and for all!:smokin:

NB: Note that Tolkien never once specifies Gothmog's gender! Trying to tell us something?

[Urwen]

Yesss, betray the Valar...

Don't forget that Morgoth was a Vala once.


Betray Morgoth's forces, of course! What else?

Let me clarify:

Those plotters planned to swear fealty to Morgoth, fight against elves and men for a while and then..join forces with ones they fought, with elvish trumpets and manish horns playing a sweet dramatic tune...


P.S. And as for the geese, they didn't work against Lalaith, but for her. Don't you see? They didn't want buttefly to take the credit! They wanted Lalaith herself to save her siblings, not some darn butterfly! And that's why they told her to squash it!

And forever and ever I'll work to defend Lalaith's honour!

[Nerwen]

Yesss, betray the Valar...

Don't forget that Morgoth was a Vala once.


Betray Morgoth's forces, of course! What else?

Let me clarify:

Those plotters planned to swear fealty to Morgoth, fight against elves and men for a while and then..join forces with ones they fought, with elvish trumpets and manish horns playing a sweet dramatic tune...

I see. And Morgoth would trust them... why, exactly?

[Nerwen]

P.S. And as for the geese, they didn't work against Lalaith, but for her. Don't you see? They didn't want buttefly to take the credit! They wanted Lalaith herself to save her siblings, not some darn butterfly! And that's why they told her to squash it!

So, what went wrong? You know, seeing as Túrin and Nienor did, in fact, both come to a bad end? Remember?

[Urwen]

What went wrong is that Maedhros killed Lalaith before she and her pets geese could bring their plans to reality!

[Nerwen]

What went wrong is that Maedhros killed Lalaith before she and her pets geese could bring their plans to reality!

*sigh* Urwen, the reasons why Maedhros did not, in fact, kill Lalaith have been given multiple times now– I've already pointed this out. You, meanwhile, have failed to come up with a a single valid argument– not a one.

But very well then– what plans did Lalaith and the geese have?

[Urwen]

All right. I'll list their plans:

1.Save Turin.

2.Save Niniel.

3.Put lizzard into Morgoth's cushion.

4.Kill Glaurung.

5.Have Niniel marry Brandir and Lalaith marry Beleg.

6. Sail to the West with Beleg,Turin,Niniel and Brandir.

Those were their plans.

[Nerwen]

All right. I'll list their plans:

1.Save Turin.

2.Save Niniel.

3.Put lizzard into Morgoth's cushion.

4.Kill Glaurung.

5.Have Niniel marry Brandir and Lalaith marry Beleg.

6. Sail to the West with Beleg,Turin,Niniel and Brandir.

Those were their plans.

1. How?

2. How?

3. Why?:confused:

4. How?

5. ...So they saved Beleg too? Um... how?

6. Ooo, guess what I'm going to ask– that's right: How?

You see the problem? Those are not plans. They are merely goals. It is very nice to have goals, but not terribly useful, really, unless you have some feasible strategy for achieving them (see: plans).

[Urwen]

Goose1:No,mistress, it's too dangerous!
Lalaith:You're my pets.You should know I wish to save our race!
Goose1:But...
Goose2:That dragon is too dangerous!
Lalaith:Not for me!
Glaurung:You'd better listen to your pets,for I...

(Lalaith kills Glaurung in a second,climbs on Goose1's back and flies off to far away)

Have at it!:D

[Nerwen]

Goose1:No,mistress, it's too dangerous!
Lalaith:You're my pets.You should know I wish to save our race!
Goose1:But...
Goose2:That dragon is too dangerous!
Lalaith:Not for me!
Glaurung:You'd better listen to your pets,for I...

(Lalaith kills Glaurung in a second,climbs on Goose1's back and flies off to far away)

Have at it!:D

Sure. Once again: how did she kill him? What you just said does not answer that question at all.

[Nerwen]

And don't just say, "She did it with her awesome power of awesome awesomeness". I want a method, Urwen. Numerous warriors failed to best Glaurung in combat. Túrin in the end only managed it by stealth.

So how did Lalaith do it?

[Urwen]

Ask Hunthor how. He experienced the same thing.:D

[Nerwen]

Ask Hunthor how. He experienced the same thing.:D

You mean she's going to drop a rock on Glaurung's head? How could she lift a rock big enough to kill him? Dragon, remember.

[Urwen]

With help of her pets, of course!;)

[Nerwen]

With help of her pets, of course!;)

The geese? How?

[Urwen]

Like this:

Goose1:Glaurung,there's gold under that cliff!
Glaurung:Show me!

(Glaurung and Goose come under the cliff.Lalaith and other Goose are standing on that same cliff.They push large rock together...and Goodbye trouble.);)

[Nerwen]

Like this:

Goose1:Glaurung,there's gold under that cliff!
Glaurung:Show me!

(Glaurung and Goose come under the cliff.Lalaith and other Goose are standing on that same cliff.They push large rock together...and Goodbye trouble.);)

Nope, this is another plan that relies on Glaurung being a nitwit. He wasn't.

Not only that, it requires Lalaith and the geese to be much stronger than they possibly could be. We're talking biiiiig rock here.

[Urwen]

I...won't...give...up

But do you know that geese were Glaurung's friends before they discovered that Lalaith was better one to follow? He's gotta trust them!:D

[Nerwen]

I...won't...give...up

But do you know that geese were Glaurung's friends before they discovered that Lalaith was better one to follow? He's gotta trust them!:D

I don't think the bad guys trust even their "friends" all that much– "the treacherous are ever distrustful" you know. And Glaurung hanging out with geese? Don't buy it.

[Urwen]

Ok,you made me seriously angry, so her's my effort:

(Lalaith is sitting on ground, stroking two geese affectionately.)

Lalaith(concerned):What shall we do now? Water and rock trick failed....

Goose1(sighs):I do not know.

Goose2:I've got an idea!

Lalaith:What is it?

(Goose2 leanes towards Lalaith and whispers something in her ear.)

Lalaith:You know what? It just might work!




Goose2 approaches Glaurung.

Goose2:You know what!You're a sucker!

Glaurung:No,I'm not!

Goose2:I say you are!

(Lalaith sneaks up to them and rips Glaurung's backbone out)

[Nerwen]

Ok,you made me seriously angry, so her's my effort:

(Lalaith is sitting on ground, stroking two geese affectionately.)

Lalaith(concerned):What shall we do now? Water and rock trick failed....

Goose1(sighs):I do not know.

Goose2:I've got an idea!

Lalaith:What is it?

(Goose2 leanes towards Lalaith and whispers something in her ear.)

Lalaith:You know what? It just might work!




Goose2 approaches Glaurung.

Goose2:You know what!You're a sucker!

Glaurung:No,I'm not!

Goose2:I say you are!

(Lalaith sneaks up to them and rips Glaurung's backbone out)

*sigh*

Yet another plan that relies on Glaurung being ridiculously stupid and Lalaith having superhuman strength.:rolleyes:

Sorry, Urwen. Rejected.

[Urwen]

Look you!I've got a super maniac plan now and if you reject it,I'll trap you in a sack!

Here it is:

(In a tavern,Lalaith and geese are sitting around the table,munching)

Lalaith:Have you got any other idea?

Goose1:Lemme think...Aha!

(An hour later,in Nargothrond,Lalaith and geese have Mim the dwarf tied up.)

Lalaith:Glaurung likes this treasure.Curse it!

Goose1:Or I'll rip your throat out!

Mim:I curse this treasure....

(Lalaith kills Mim and walks calmly out of Nargothrond, followed by geese.They rerurn to tavern and have a nice nap...)

I can't think of anything else...for now!

[Loslote]

And forever and ever I'll work to defend Lalaith's honour!

I don't think you actually know what honor is. Look it up.

5.Have Niniel marry Brandir and Lalaith marry Beleg.

You know, chances are Beleg was already married. According to the essay in Morgoth's Ring, The Laws and Customs of the Eldar, Elves usually married young (around the age of 150 years, as I recall). Beleg most likely was already married (albight without children, as elves tried not to have children during times of war). Moreover, Lalaith would not have been worried about marriage at her young age (unless she was rather creepy :eek:).

(Lalaith kills Glaurung in a second,climbs on Goose1's back and flies off to far away)

Clearly these are no ordinary geese, but giant ones...

The geese? How?

They are giant, remember?

Not only that, it requires Lalaith and the geese to be much stronger than they possibly could be. We're talking biiiiig rock here.

Uber-giant geese, Nerwen! Keep up! ;)

Look you!I've got a super maniac plan now and if you reject it,I'll trap you in a sack!

Here it is:

(In a tavern,Lalaith and geese are sitting around the table,munching)

Lalaith:Have you got any other idea?

Goose1:Lemme think...Aha!

(An hour later,in Nargothrond,Lalaith and geese have Mim the dwarf tied up.)

Lalaith:Glaurung likes this treasure.Curse it!

Goose1:Or I'll rip your throat out!

Mim:I curse this treasure....

(Lalaith kills Mim and walks calmly out of Nargothrond, followed by geese.They rerurn to tavern and have a nice nap...)

I can't think of anything else...for now!

...I can't even follow this one. What's the point again?

Another point: Lalaith does not seem to mind blood at all, but I do. Could you tone down the "rip out the backbone" and such like? Please?:o

[Mnemosyne]

I don't think you actually know what honor is. Look it up.

Actually, given how women's honor was defined throughout most of history, I don't think Lalaith's honor has ever been in question. She was, after all, very young when she died.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen
5.Have Niniel marry Brandir and Lalaith marry Beleg.
You know, chances are Beleg was already married. According to the essay in Morgoth's Ring, The Laws and Customs of the Eldar, Elves usually married young (around the age of 150 years, as I recall). Beleg most likely was already married (albight without children, as elves tried not to have children during times of war). Moreover, Lalaith would not have been worried about marriage at her young age (unless she was rather creepy ).

Well, I've lost track of how old Urwen's er... interesting version of Lalaith is meant to be, but I'm hoping she's an AU Lalaith who lived to grow up. You may say that makes it hard to argue it's the same character, but when the alternative is a bizarre SuperBaby!Sue on a bloodthirsty killing spree...

Maybe you could clear this up, Urwen?


Look you!I've got a super maniac plan now and if you reject it,I'll trap you in a sack!

Mind if I ask.. you guessed it... how?

Here it is:

(In a tavern,Lalaith and geese are sitting around the table,munching)

Lalaith:Have you got any other idea?

Goose1:Lemme think...Aha!

(An hour later,in Nargothrond,Lalaith and geese have Mim the dwarf tied up.)

Lalaith:Glaurung likes this treasure.Curse it!

Goose1:Or I'll rip your throat out!

Mim:I curse this treasure....

(Lalaith kills Mim and walks calmly out of Nargothrond, followed by geese.They rerurn to tavern and have a nice nap...)

I can't think of anything else...for now!

Why and how? Don't get it.

[Nerwen]

Actually, if I squint really hard I can sort of discern a hazy glimmer of meaning– that Lalaith and her geese somehow transport the treasures of Nargothrond somewhere in order to induce Glaurung to do something, and that she had to somehow kill Mîm to do so.

But that absolutely and definitely won't work. By that point in the story, everyone was dead except Mîm, Húrin and Morwen. All over bar the shouting.

[Urwen]

I thought you liked her?:confused:

Of course I like her! I named myself after her!;)

[Loslote]

I thought you liked her?:confused:

Of course I like her! I named myself after her!;)

Where'd this come from? :confused:

[Urwen]

Her original name is Urwen.;)

[Loslote]

Her original name is Urwen.;)

No, I got that bit. But who asked if you liked her? I couldn't find that bit.

[Urwen]

Nerwen asked.:D

[Nerwen]

No, I got that bit. But who asked if you liked her? I couldn't find that bit.

She's talking about these (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=628942&postcount=52) posts. (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=628946&postcount=54)

And Urwen– to quote from someone else's post, just hit the "quote" button. It's on the lower righthand side.

[Urwen]

I see. And Morgoth would trust them... why, exactly?

For same reason the SoF trusted Ulfang...

[Nerwen]

For same reason the SoF trusted Ulfang...

You mean because they had no idea they were, or ever had been, allied with the enemy?

Nope. Not the same situation at all.

REJECTED.

Please try again.

[Nerwen]

So let's just review these "Lalaith Saves The World And Lives Happily Ever After" scenarios of yours shall we, Urwen?

1. Lalaith saves Niniel from Glaurung by distracting her. REJECTED.

2. Lalaith drugs Glaurung. REJECTED.

3. Lalaith proves she didn't kill the butterfly. REJECTED.

4. Lalaith double-crosses Morgoth at Dagor Dagorath. REJECTED. Twice.

5. Lalaith gets Beleg to marry her. REJECTED.

7. Lalaith kills Glaurung "in a second". Somehow. REJECTED.

8. Lalaith kills Glaurung by dropping a rock on his head. REJECTED.

9. Lalaith rips Glaurung's backbone out with her bare hands. REJECTED.

10. Lalaith plunders Nargothrond and uses the proceeds to change the past. Or something. Somehow. REJECTED.

SCORE: 0 OUT OF 10.

Pending:

Lalaith puts lizard into Morgoth's cushion. For some reason.

Lalaith persudes Niniel to marry Brandir instead of Turin.

Lalaith sails into the West with Beleg, Turin, Niniel, Brandir and the geese.

I'm really looking forward to seeing you tackle that last one.;)

[Nerwen]

Tell you what, though, I'm in a generous mood. You can have another shot at 5., Urwen, provided you clear up how old Lalaith is meant to be at the time. (As in, not three, I hope.)

I mean, we don't know if Beleg was married already, and he was certainly a sucker for punishment...

Over to you.

[Nerwen]

Note that this particular project has two parts: first, of course, Lalaith has to prevent Turin from killing Beleg. I mean, she can't very well marry him if he's dead.

Think you're up to that?

[Blind Guardian]

This has turned hilarious! Even though I have no clue what it's about...

[Urwen]

All right.Here's another one:

(Lalaith is 23 now. And she is taking another try at destroying ovegrown thing.Geese support her,as always.)

Goose1:You know,twenty years passed.We should be smarter now.

Goose2:Agreed.

Lalaith:And when this is all over we shall go to Valinor.

(Lalaith and geese descend from pass above Nen Lalaith)

To be continued...


This is only the first part.More are to come.What doth thou think?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

More are to come.What doth thou think?

Oh please don't ask...

[Eönwë]

What doth thou think?

Shouldn't it be "dost"? :p

[Loslote]

This has turned hilarious! Even though I have no clue what it's about...

I don't think anyone does. :p

All right.Here's another one:

(Lalaith is 23 now. And she is taking another try at destroying ovegrown thing.Geese support her,as always.)

Goose1:You know,twenty years passed.We should be smarter now.

Goose2:Agreed.

Lalaith:And when this is all over we shall go to Valinor.

(Lalaith and geese descend from pass above Nen Lalaith)

To be continued...


This is only the first part.More are to come.What doth thou think?

I think this doesn't say anything. So now they've come up with their goals...and have gotten smarter...is that anything like leveling up? Just wondering. ;)

[Nerwen]

All right.Here's another one:

(Lalaith is 23 now. And she is taking another try at destroying ovegrown thing.Geese support her,as always.)

Goose1:You know,twenty years passed.We should be smarter now.

Uh. So she was only three previously. Wandering around Middle-earth on her own, hanging out in taverns, killing people, ripping out dragon-backbones– all at the age of three.:eek:

And you were planning to have Beleg marry a toddler?

Interesting.

Goose2:Agreed.

Lalaith:And when this is all over we shall go to Valinor.

(Lalaith and geese descend from pass above Nen Lalaith)

To be continued...


This is only the first part.More are to come.What doth thou think?

Well, how can we think anything yet, Urwen? Your Lalaith and her geese are big on goals– we knew that already. It's the achieving-them side of things where the problems arise.

[Urwen]

And as for the reason for putting lizard in Morgoth's cushion-well,he killed her(or at least,planned to).He deserves sort of payback,don't you think?;)

[Loslote]

And as for the reason for putting lizard in Morgoth's cushion-well,he killed her(or at least,planned to).He deserves sort of payback,don't you think?;)

Wow. From ripping out a backbone with her bare hands to putting a lizard under a cushion...is it just me, or is Lalaith a bit unstable? ;)

And congrats on your 100th post. :)

[Nerwen]

And as for the reason for putting lizard in Morgoth's cushion-well,he killed her(or at least,planned to).

And... oh... maybe one or two other people as well.:rolleyes:

He deserves sort of payback,don't you think?;)

In what possible sense does that constitute a "payback", Urwen? It's just a lizard.:confused:

[Estelyn Telcontar]

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/images/chatskwerl.jpg

*a chat skwerl peeks around the corner*

"This I will say to you: your thread stands upon the edge of a knife. Stray but a little and it will close..."


(This thread really does belong in Mirth, but since the moderator there shifted the responsibility back to me, I'm keeping an eye - both, as often as I can spare them - on the posts. Please remember to avoid too much chattiness, as it creates the impression of going off-topic. Thanks!)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

And as for the reason for putting lizard in Morgoth's cushion-well,he killed her(or at least,planned to).

It's a bit contradictory to ascribe blame to Morgoth now rather than Maedhros.

[Urwen]

And... oh... maybe one or two other people as well.:rolleyes:

Which people?:confused:

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen
And as for the reason for putting lizard in Morgoth's cushion-well,he killed her(or at least,planned to).He deserves sort of payback,don't you think?
It's a bit contradictory to ascribe blame to Morgoth now rather than Maedhros.

Not just that. The only reason for doing this at all can only be to annoy Morgoth. I mean, some people, after going to the trouble of infiltrating Angband, might take the opportunity to do something little more productive, but no, Lalaith's merely going to play a lame, childish prank. (Why a lizard, of all things?):rolleyes:

Very well. She means to annoy him. Now as, we know, Morgoth doesn't respond well to being even slightly annoyed.

Remember what he did when Feanor slammed the door in his face? Or when Lalaith's own father told him a few home truths? Or when Maedhros–

...Maedhros...

–Wait a moment... that sounds familiar...

Tell me, Urwen, if Morgoth retaliates for the lizard incident by murdering yet more innocent people, will that mean Lalaith is the real killer?

[Nerwen]

Which people?:confused:

Huh? I point out that Morgoth the Dark Lord might have killed, or caused to be killed, one or two characters other than Lalaith, and you're confused? Really?

Now I'm confused.:confused:

Come on, Urwen, 'fess up. You've been trolling us all the whole time, haven't you? :D

[Nerwen]

*a chat skwerl peeks around the corner*

"This I will say to you: your thread stands upon the edge of a knife. Stray but a little and it will close..."


(This thread really does belong in Mirth, but since the moderator there shifted the responsibility back to me, I'm keeping an eye - both, as often as I can spare them - on the posts. Please remember to avoid too much chattiness, as it creates the impression of going off-topic. Thanks!)

Sorry, Esty– it's just that I don't think any of us are quite sure what's on-topic any more.

[Urwen]

I know he will kill one or two other,but give me names of his victims!

Lalaith:We want names!

Goose1:Names!

Goose2:Names!

Niniel:Names!

Names...

[Nerwen]

I know he will kill one or two other,but give me names of his victims!

Lalaith:We want names!

Goose1:Names!

Goose2:Names!

Niniel:Names!

Names...

You... you did read the Silmarillion, didn't you, Urwen?:confused:

[Urwen]

I know, but couldn't he have killed Maeglin and Uldor instead of Nienor and Gorlim?:(

[Nerwen]

I know, but couldn't he have killed Maeglin and Uldor instead of Nienor and Gorlim?:(

??? What do you mean?

[Urwen]

I mean couldn't he have killed Maeglin,which would remove any stain on soul of my namesake's cousin.Or Uldor for that matter-two damn traitors!

But nooo.He had to kill Lalaith,Nienor and Gorlim.It's true that Gorlim is a traitor too,and that Nienor committed sin,but lo and behold! Gorlim and Nienor both did it for LOVE! And Morgoth just had to kill those three innocent souls instead of two REAL traitors,which are Maeglin and Uldor! I mean,only psycho could do such a thing!:p

[Nerwen]

I mean couldn't he have killed Maeglin,which would remove any stain on soul of my namesake's cousin.Or Uldor for that matter-two damn traitors!

But nooo.He had to kill Lalaith,Nienor and Gorlim.It's true that Gorlim is a traitor too,and that Nienor committed sin,but lo and behold! Gorlim and Nienor both did it for LOVE! And Morgoth just had to kill those three innocent souls instead of two REAL traitors,which are Maeglin and Uldor! I mean,only psycho could do such a thing!:p

So you're saying you don't think Morgoth was all that nice?

[Pitchwife]

And Morgoth just had to kill those three innocent souls instead of two REAL traitors,which are Maeglin and Uldor! I mean,only psycho could do such a thing!:p
Other way round: only a psycho would kill people who worked for him rather than his enemies, don't you think?

[the phantom]

Let's stop the wild theories and rebuttals for a moment and examine this thing logically. If you do, I believe you will come to the same conclusion that I did about this.

Maedhros literally killed Lalaith. Not indirectly, but with his own flesh.

Follow me through some points here-
1) Morgoth's plague was a specific response to the growing power of Maedhros.
2) Morgoth was seriously evil. If some sort of evil plan occurs to me, it's a given it occurred to him.
3) The plague was not conjured from nothing. Melkor could not create life or matter. He could only take existing things and corrupt them.
4) The plague had to have some sort of source- i.e. a biological "patient zero". Some animal or bit of flesh had to be Morgoth's test tube, which he then placed somewhere in the north and the sickness spread from it.

Given those facts, does any diabolical idea spring to mind?

No?

Well, perhaps you're not as sick and twisted as I am by nature, so I'll make this easy for you. Given that it was the power of Maedhros that Melkor was striking against, wouldn't it be absolutely perfect to use Maedhros as the engine of destruction?

"But Phantom- Morgoth couldn't get to Maedhros, and Tolkien never said he was sick!"

Ah, but you're forgetting that not every bit of Maedhros was accounted for. What about the hand he left behind hanging upon the cliffs of Morgoth's fortress!!

Given the facts, you can't tell me that Morgoth didn't have this idea. The hand was infected and Morgoth had his servants plant it near some populated area around Hithlum and boom- horrible death brought about by Maedhros's own flesh! He brought doom upon Lalaith, literally with his own hand.

[Urwen]

Bravo! Nice conclusion!

[Nerwen]

Bravo! Nice conclusion!

You would think so, wouldn't you?:rolleyes:

...So we're still not finished with the lizard. Like I said, why is it okay for Lalaith to annoy Morgoth?

Urwen? Got an answer for that one?

Originally Posted by Urwen
And Morgoth just had to kill those three innocent souls instead of two REAL traitors,which are Maeglin and Uldor! I mean,only psycho could do such a thing!
Other way round: only a psycho would kill people who worked for him rather than his enemies, don't you think?

Indeed. First you're angry Maedhros failed to put the welfare of a single child (whom he probably didn't know existed) ahead of all else. Now you're shocked that the main villain prefers to kill off the good guys rather than people on his own side.

Forgive me for saying this, Urwen, but you do appear to have a rather curious approach to reading fiction. It seems like you expect all the characters in the book– no matter their roles– to have exactly the same sympathies that you do. :confused:

[Pitchwife]

Ingenious and elegant solution, phantom! The only (very minor) problem I can see with it is the explicit statement in the Narn that the plague was spread by "an ill wind from the North", which seems to indicate that the germ was transported from Morgoth's domain either by the air itself or by some intermediate airborne carrier.

Could it be that Lalaith's famous pet geese* played a fatal role here? It was in autumn that the plague came, the time when birds migrate south. Would it be too far fetched to suppose that the geese caught the disease in the far North and brought it to Dor-lomin on their way south? And remember that late autumn/early winter is also the time when geese are butchered and eaten (against the fervent protests of Lalaith, I'm sure; and what tragic irony that she fell victim herself to the plague that could have been avoided if her protests had been heeded...:(**)! Presumably, Húrin's people didn't understand the connection between consumption of goose meat and infection and thus mistakenly attributed the epidemy to the wind itself rather than the birds who sailed on it.

If we attempt to reconcile this idea with your theory about Maedhros' hand, we face the problem that geese are vegetarians and wouldn't have touched dead flesh - but ducks would (as I can testify from first-hand observation of the four who keep our garden slug-free); or if they didn't nibble on the hand itself they could have eaten worms which had previously fed on the hand. Maybe Lalaith's geese were actually ducks and were mistranslated by Aelfwine (or possibly Bilbo, depending on which version of the translator conceit you choose to follow) rendering Dírhavel's Sindarin original in his native tongue? After all, both belong to the family Anatidae, and I've met people who couldn't tell one from the other...

* (mentioned only in an obscure textual variant to the Narn which I can't find at the moment, but I suppose Nerwen might be able to help me out...)
**(Alternatively, maybe her protests were heeded after all, but she was the first to catch the disease by cuddling those dratted birds all the time...)

[Loslote]

Given the facts, you can't tell me that Morgoth didn't have this idea. The hand was infected and Morgoth had his servants plant it near some populated area around Hithlum and boom- horrible death brought about by Maedhros's own flesh! He brought doom upon Lalaith, literally with his own hand.

So are you saying that Lalaith came into contact with this nasty rotting hand (:eek:) and what? How did the disease spread? I seriously hope she didn't touch it or eat it...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So are you saying that Lalaith came into contact with this nasty rotting hand (:eek:) and what? How did the disease spread? I seriously hope she didn't touch it or eat it...

A-ha! Now you have nailed it. She found it and ate it... eurgh... but, you know, the youngsters and their habits sometimes, improper education and all that... But then, such a disgusting deed just had to be punished. I mean, eating a high Elven Lord's hand? A certain werewolf got killed for less than that.

[Urwen]

Once again: DON"T INSULT LALAITH!

Really,how many times must I repeat this?!:(

[Nerwen]

Maybe Lalaith's geese were actually ducks and were mistranslated by Aelfwine (or possibly Bilbo, depending on which version of the translator conceit you choose to follow) rendering Dírhavel's Sindarin original in his native tongue? After all, both belong to the family Anatidae, and I've met people who couldn't tell one from the other...

An interesting point, Pitch. A number of species with "goose" in their common names are actually considered ducks by taxonomists.

* (mentioned only in an obscure textual variant to the Narn which I can't find at the moment, but I suppose Nerwen might be able to help me out...)

The variant to which you're referring is to be found in HoMe, Vol XVI. However, though the geese do appear, note that it represents a radically different version of the text, especially regarding the effects of the disease, so that it's very hard to fit it into the story as we now know it. Nonetheless, it does represent a fascinating curiosity for Tolkien scholars– who would have thought that at one point JRRT intended to have Beleriand overrun by plague-infected cannibal zombies?

Once again: DON"T INSULT LALAITH!

Really,how many times must I repeat this?!:(

But it's so much fun!:D

[Urwen]

Fun or not,here I come!

Besides,you like her too,don't ya? Otherwise,you wouldn't have asked question about her in 'Who am I?' thread! Admit it!

Btw,answer to my riddle in 'Who am I(II)' is Aredhel....

[Loslote]

A-ha! Now you have nailed it. She found it and ate it... eurgh... but, you know, the youngsters and their habits sometimes, improper education and all that... But then, such a disgusting deed just had to be punished. I mean, eating a high Elven Lord's hand? A certain werewolf got killed for less than that.

You know, this makes a certain amount of sense...

...eeewwww.

The variant to which you're referring is to be found in HoMe, Vol XVI. However, though the geese do appear, note that it represents a radically different version of the text, especially regarding the effects of the disease, so that it's very hard to fit it into the story as we now know it. Nonetheless, it does represent a fascinating curiosity for Tolkien scholars– who would have thought that at one point JRRT intended to have Beleriand overrun by plague-infected cannibal zombies?

Clearly Tolkien was inspired by The Phantom's recent dream...

[Nerwen]

Fun or not,here I come!

Besides,you like her too,don't ya? Otherwise,you wouldn't have asked question about her in 'Who am I?' thread! Admit it!

Well, actually I did that just for you.;)

But sure, I like her– only I'm really not sure if your "Lalaith" is, in fact, Lalaith. Don't recall Tolkien saying anything about Turin's little sister being able to kill dragons with her bare hands...

Btw,answer to my riddle in 'Who am I(II)' is Aredhel....

Hey, Urwen, you've barely given anyone a chance to guess the answer! In fact Pitch is still waiting to be told if his guess (Nienor) was correct or not.

[satansaloser2005]

WHAT THE HECK IS THIS RUBBISH?!?!

This is the tone I'm gleaning from this thread:


Urwen: *offers what I really HOPE is a joking opening post*

Nerwen, Eomer, Phantom (heh), Lottie (hehehehe), etc.: *give serious responses*

Me: *thinks this will be a great opportunity to learn more about the books*

Urwen: *dashes my hopes*

All of the above: *are confused*

Urwen: *is kidding, right?*



Look! I even followed Urwen's 'analytical' posting style! That has to get her back on some sort of sane track, right? Right?!


Will someone explain to me exactly what is going on here? Anyone (except Urwen at this point, because I don't think she knows either)? Please?

[Loslote]

WHAT THE HECK IS THIS RUBBISH?!?!



This is the tone I'm gleaning from this thread:


Urwen: *offers what I really HOPE is a joking opening post*

Nerwen, Eomer, Phantom (heh), Lottie (hehehehe), etc.: *give serious responses*

Me: *thinks this will be a great opportunity to learn more about the books*

Urwen: *dashes my hopes*

All of the above: *are confused*

Urwen: *is kidding, right?*



Look! I even followed Urwen's 'analytical' posting style! That has to get her back on some sort of sane track, right? Right?!


Will someone explain to me exactly what is going on here? Anyone (except Urwen at this point, because I don't think she knows either)? Please?

1. Oh hush up. :p

2. At the moment, we're working on answering the questions "is Lalaith a Warg?" and "did the Plague come from Maedhros's hand?" and "did Lalaith eat said rotting, plague-infested hand?" and "what are the 'geese', really?"

[Pitchwife]

Well, sally, explaining a joke tends to ruin it, but for your peace of mind, this thread has developped more like this:

Urwen: *extends her blood feud with Feanor and his whole kin (established here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=16375)) to blaming Maedhros for the untimely demise of one of her favourite heroines*

Nerwen, Eomer, Phantom (heh), Lottie (hehehehe), etc.: *give serious responses*

you: *think this will be a great opportunity to learn more about the books*

Urwen: *dashes your hopes*

All of the above: *decide to make the best of the situation and get some entertainment out of it by making fun of Urwen's infatuation with Lalaith*
(It started with the bugs and the butterfly and went over the cliff when Glaurung and the geese entered into the picture)

Esty: *agrees with all of the above and moves the thread to Mirth*

Urwen: *doesn't realise that the pleasure of poking fun at her increases in direct proportion with the irascibility of her responses and adds more fuel to the fire*

morm: *doesn't get the mirthful aspect and re-moves thread to N&N*

the true Lalaith: *is offended*

Nerwen & phantom: *do their damnedest to turn the whole affair into an intellectual challenge*
(starting with Narn i Gwilwileth Luin and culminating in the Maedhros' Hand Theory)

parallel to the above:
Nerwen: *challenges Urwen to make good her outrageous claims on Lalaith's behalf in a way that actually makes sense, leading to a battle of proposed and rejected scenarios (score up to now - Nerwen: arnoediad, Urwen: 0)*

Urwen: *still doesn't get why everybody keeps 'insulting' her precious Lalaith, when we're all actually quite fond of the poor girl whom she's blown up beyond all proportion*

Everything: *gradually ceases to be as much fun as it was for a while*

And that's where we are now.

Look! I even followed Urwen's 'analytical' posting style! That has to get her back on some sort of sane track, right? Right?!
When daisies flower in Mordor...

[Mnemosyne]

Actually Urwen/Lalaith was called back from wherever she had been (I still hold to my theory that she had never died) to rejuvenate the landscape of Mordor after the fall of Sauron.

It is said that daisies sprung up in her footprints, and that goose poop is a better fertilizer than nothing.

So, you see, the phantom really was right to assign her to Mordor.

[Blind Guardian]

:D There where daisies in Mordor?!

[Nerwen]

:D There where daisies in Mordor?!

After Lalaith was through, the Daisy Fields of Gorgoroth were one of the wonders of Middle-earth, second only to the glittering golden sands of the Sea of Urwen (formerly Núrnen).

[Blind Guardian]

Mordor went from black bloody lava filled land to daisy fields? Sauron must fell cursed!

[Nerwen]

Mordor went from black bloody lava filled land to daisy fields? Sauron must fell cursed!

Well, I fancy he had other reasons for being less than happy with the state of his fortunes at that point.;)

[Urwen]

I can think of another...

Nen Lalaith ran straight by Lalaith's grave.One day,river god decided to take her under his wing.He made her a maia.

And a millenia later she chose a husband-a master of all living things...

There you are-Lalaith is Goldberry!

[Aganzir]

And a millenia later she chose a husband-a master of all living things...

There you are-Lalaith is Goldberry!
It's a bit far-fetched to say Goldberry chose Tom... Quite the contrary, it could be argued Tom took her by force (can't post any quotes though since I don't have The Adventures of Tom Bombadil here). Just saying. ;)

[Nerwen]

I can think of another...

Nen Lalaith ran straight by Lalaith's grave.One day,river god decided to take her under his wing.He made her a maia.

And a millenia later she chose a husband-a master of all living things...

There you are-Lalaith is Goldberry!

What river god? Why is he able to transform dead human children into beings of a completely different order?

Besides, this in no way explains how Lalaith is to achieve any of her goals. Or have you given up on them?

[Urwen]

River god is Ulmo.That answers your other question.

And as for her plans...haven't you realised that she transformed her geese into ponies when she got married?

[Nerwen]

River god is Ulmo.That answers your other question.

This one?

Why is he able to transform dead human children into beings of a completely different order?

No, it doesn't. Since when does Ulmo have that power? (Clue: he doesn't.)

And as for her plans...haven't you realised that she transformed her geese into ponies when she got married?

And this helped her kill Glaurung, save her brother and sister etc... how?

[Eorl of Rohan]

There you are-Lalaith is Goldberry!

I'll probably be struck down by a thunder from the heavens for speaking such blasphemies, but I actually like this idea. Impossible, but pretty.
I don't get what her fixation is with giant mutant space geese from outer space that bends the law of time and physics, though.

[Nerwen]

I don't get what her fixation is with giant mutant space geese from outer space that bends the law of time and physics, though.

You are behind the times. They are now giant mutant space ponies.

[Urwen]

You know,I think you should know that Ulmo and his bros and sises work for the One. Therefore,they all have power to transform...;)

[Nerwen]

You know,I think you should know that Ulmo and his bros and sises work for the One. Therefore,they all have power to transform...;)

...dead human kiddies into Maiar? Uh-uh. Doesn't fit into Tolkien's cosmology at all.

This works no better than your endowing Lalaith with superhuman strength: you can't win by just making up abilities for the characters.

Besides, you still haven't said how any of this would have helped Lalaithberry kill Glaurung.

[Loslote]

What river god? Why is he able to transform dead human children into beings of a completely different order?

Besides, this in no way explains how Lalaith is to achieve any of her goals. Or have you given up on them?

Actually, there is a precedent. Ulmo did turn Elwing into a seagull briefly. Hey, there's a thought! Maybe Lalaith is one of the geese!

It's a bit far-fetched to say Goldberry chose Tom... Quite the contrary, it could be argued Tom took her by force (can't post any quotes though since I don't have The Adventures of Tom Bombadil here). Just saying. ;)

Maybe Lalaith is very manipulative and just made Bombadil think he'd chosen her. Or she's quirky. :eek:

[Nerwen]

Actually, there is a precedent. Ulmo did turn Elwing into a seagull briefly. Hey, there's a thought! Maybe Lalaith is one of the geese!

Yes, there's a number of precedents for shapeshifting– that's not the same thing.

Maybe Lalaith is very manipulative and just made Bombadil think he'd chosen her. Or she's quirky. :eek:

Well, she was all set to marry Beleg at the age of three...

[skip spence]

What in the name of Morgoth is this thread? :confused:

[Estelyn Telcontar]

For skip and all who would echo your question:

The Downs forum is usually quite well sorted - serious topics in the Books forum, funny stuff in Mirth. However, there is a history of threads which started one way and then turned to the other. Those are not as easy to categorize. This thread has taken several turns, and as a result, has been moved more than once. It now resides here for the amusement of those who are posting and reading - enjoy, or ignore if you prefer! :)

[Eorl of Rohan]

What in the name of Morgoth is this thread?

You heard Nerwen. A thread about giant mutant space ponies and one dead shapeshifting human lass. ;)
Is it just me or does the mention of Lalaith's possible quirkiness and the geese remind one of "Leda and the Swan" by Yeats?

[satansaloser2005]

What in the name of Morgoth is this thread? :confused:

Hehehe. I'm not entirely sure either. :eek:

*pats poor Esty and prepares an offering to the Chat Skwerls*

[Pitchwife]

Much to my own surprise, I feel moved to defend Urwen on the question of Lalaithberry's transformation. Back in BoLT, Turin and Nienor(i) were said to have been purified in Fôs 'Almir, the Bath of the Flame, after their death and counted among the Valar afterwards. Most likely this early conception was long abandoned by the time Tolkien wrote the Narn, but it shows that the idea of a similar posthumous fate for their sister is not as utterly un-Tolkienian as it seems at first sight.

[Nerwen]

Much to my own surprise, I feel moved to defend Urwen on the question of Lalaithberry's transformation. Back in BoLT, Turin and Nienor(i) were said to have been purified in Fôs 'Almir, the Bath of the Flame, after their death and counted among the Valar afterwards. Most likely this early conception was long abandoned by the time Tolkien wrote the Narn, but it shows that the idea of a similar posthumous fate for their sister is not as utterly un-Tolkienian as it seems at first sight.

Yes, but that's Book of Lost Tales– very different conception of– well, everything, really. Was Lalaith even in that?

Besides, how could Lalaithberry kill Glaurung, etc. anyway?

Or has she just abandoned all her previous goals, Urwen? Come on, you can't give up now!

[Beorn of Carrock]

Lalaith isn't mentioned in the Book of Lost Tales.

[Nerwen]

Lalaith isn't mentioned in the Book of Lost Tales.

Thanks, Beorn.

I didn't think so.

[Urwen]

All right.I'll give you something to work with.

(FIRST AGE OF SUN,AT TOL-N-GAURHOTH)

Sauron left his tower, when a voice spoke.Sauron felt a grip on his neck.

VOICE: You're Morgoth's servant,aren't you?

SAURON:Yes...

VOICE:Well,he could have you back if he undos the curse on Turin and Nienor...

[Nerwen]

All right.I'll give you something to work with.

(FIRST AGE OF SUN,AT TOL-N-GAURHOTH)

Sauron left his tower, when a voice spoke.Sauron felt a grip on his neck.

VOICE: You're Morgoth's servant,aren't you?

SAURON:Yes...

VOICE:Well,he could have you back if he undos the curse on Turin and Nienor...

You have your chronology mixed up, my dear. There was no tower on Tol-in-Gaurhoth by the time Morgoth cursed Húrin's kiddies. It had been Lúthiened*.

That aside... um... what's the point of all this?:confused:
*is overcome by sudden sense of déjà vu*



*She rules, by the way, and don't let Mithalwen tell you any different.;)

[Urwen]

The point is that Morgoth couldn't afford losing his best henchman,so he'll surely undo his curse.And without the curse,Turin and Nienor will be saved.

Which takes care of Lalaith's first goal...:p;)

[Nerwen]

The point is that Morgoth couldn't afford losing his best henchman,so he'll surely undo his curse.And without the curse,Turin and Nienor will be saved.

Which takes care of Lalaith's first goal...:p;)

I don't get it. Is the "Voice" supposed to be Lalaith? Is she taking Sauron hostage? Her and what army?

[Urwen]

Army of geese,spiders,ponies,Finrod and host of Nargothrond and army of house of the wing from Gondolin,led by her cousin!:p

[satansaloser2005]

Army of geese,spiders,ponies,Finrod and host of Nargothrond and army of house of the wing from Gondolin,led by her cousin!:p

Nerwen asked her and what army, not her and what flock. Much as I admire a good flock, they're just feathers and pointy little beaks.

:smokin:

[Nerwen]

Army of geese,spiders,ponies,Finrod and host of Nargothrond and army of house of the wing from Gondolin,led by her cousin!:p

1. Geese? Spiders? Ponies?

2. Finrod was dead by this point.

3. How did she get into Gondolin? How did she get Turgon to agree?

4. Ever wondered why the good guys never actually tried this?

[satansaloser2005]

1. Geese? Spiders? Ponies?

2. Finrod was dead by this point.

3. How did she get into Gondolin? How did she get Turgon to agree?

4. Ever wondered why the good guys never actually tried this?



And Nerwen with the intelligent canonical approach. Please insert two quarters and try again, Urwen. I think we'd all love to hear a proper defense for Lalaith, and who better to give it than such a devoted fanchild? Dazzle us with some actual logic, if you please!

[Nerwen]

I think we'd all love to hear a proper defense for Lalaith, and who better to give it than such a devoted fanchild? Dazzle us with some actual logic, if you please!

I'm not exactly holding my breath.:rolleyes:

[satansaloser2005]

I'm not exactly holding my breath.:rolleyes:

I'd hope not! By the time Urwen got back on the Downs and thought of a reply you'd likely be dead, just like Lalaith.

Hey, maybe then YOU could have an army of ducks....erm, geese! :D


:cool:

[Urwen]

Lalaith was a happy child, and was compared to an Elven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_%28Middle-earth%29) child by most people. Túrin loved his little sister, but "he played with her seldom, and liked better to guard her unseen and watch her going upon grass or under tree, as she sang such songs as the children of the Edain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edain) made long ago".[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lalaith#cite_note-UT-0)
But in the autumn of the year when Urwen was three, a pestilent wind, called the 'Evil Breath', came to Hithlum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hithlum) from Angband (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angband_%28Middle-earth%29), and both Túrin and Lalaith were taken sick. Túrin recovered from the plague, but his sister died.

And why the plague came?

Because Maedhros was too rash.

Judge:You're guilty,Maedhros!You're guilty for murder of three year old girl.

Maedhros(lowers head):I am...

See? He himself admits it!

[satansaloser2005]

....Or she did too much singing underneath those darn trees, was out too much in the cold, caught hypothermia (although of course it was adorable hypothermia!) and died because she didn't have the common sense to wear a sweater. Kids!

(Yes, people, I am being facetious.)

And it wasn't Maedhros' fault he was rash. He probably caught it from another kid who didn't have the sense to go in from the cold and gave him some illness. I honestly feel bad for people like that, because he's being blamed for killing one child when clearly other people had to have died and he's missing out on all that limelight (which I'm sure he would thoroughly enjoy). People these days....


*waits for Nerwen's even more amusing response*

[Nerwen]

Lalaith was a happy child, and was compared to an Elven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_%28Middle-earth%29) child by most people. Túrin loved his little sister, but "he played with her seldom, and liked better to guard her unseen and watch her going upon grass or under tree, as she sang such songs as the children of the Edain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edain) made long ago".[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lalaith#cite_note-UT-0)
But in the autumn of the year when Urwen was three, a pestilent wind, called the 'Evil Breath', came to Hithlum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hithlum) from Angband (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angband_%28Middle-earth%29), and both Túrin and Lalaith were taken sick. Túrin recovered from the plague, but his sister died.

And why the plague came?

Because Maedhros was too rash.

Judge:You're guilty,Maedhros!You're guilty for murder of three year old girl.

Maedhros(lowers head):I am...

See? He himself admits it!

Now you're just putting words into the characters' mouths. You can't win that way.

Let me try it:

Lalaith: I am really Morgoth in disguise!

See?

And as for the rest of it– all you're doing is repeating your original argument. We've all explained to you why it doesn't hold water. Over and over and over again.

You've never managed to come up with a counter-argument– you just re-state the original a slightly different way, and hope no-one will notice.

One word: FAIL.

[Nerwen]

....Or she did too much singing underneath those darn trees, was out too much in the cold, caught hypothermia (although of course it was adorable hypothermia!) and died because she didn't have the common sense to wear a sweater. Kids!

(Yes, people, I am being facetious.)

And it wasn't Maedhros' fault he was rash. He probably caught it from another kid who didn't have the sense to go in from the cold and gave him some illness. I honestly feel bad for people like that, because he's being blamed for killing one child when clearly other people had to have died and he's missing out on all that limelight (which I'm sure he would thoroughly enjoy). People these days....

Ah, but Maedhros didn't even infect her. The bad guy got irritated at him and tried his hand at biological warfare, which indeed killed a bunch of people, including this one kid that Urwen's obsessed with. Really. That's what happened.

*waits for Nerwen's even more amusing response*

Afraid it wasn't that amusing this time. Sorry. You see, this ground is all too well-trodden. Whenever Urwen gets foiled with her current Goddess!Lalaith scenario, she attempts to go back and start all over again. It's tiring.

[satansaloser2005]

Ah, but Maedhros didn't even infect her. The bad guy got irritated at him and tried his hand at biological warfare, which indeed killed a bunch of people, including this one kid that Urwen's obsessed with. Really. That's what happened.



Afraid it wasn't that amusing this time. Sorry. You see, this ground is all too well-trodden. Whenever Urwen gets foiled with her current Goddess!Lalaith scenario, she attempts to go back and start all over again. It's tiring.


*snickers* I actually rather assumed that, but figured I'd throw a bone out there anyway. Although I bet that rash made him some enemies. ;)

And fear not, it is! Erm, was, whatever. And if it's tiring, why bother responding? Wait for the phantom to get back on and eat her or something. He's good at that. ;) (Although I must say I do enjoy your replies. Blessings to you, oh speaker of sense, reason, and sarcasm, may fail everywhere flee from you.)

Silly is as Sally does, but this is just ridiculous. Although again, entertaining.

[Urwen]

'And I fear that the Marrer, working even through the whim of this child...'

WHAT? Morgoth working through Lalaith?!

He (http://tuuliky.deviantart.com/art/Finrod-in-Nargothrond-140657540), she (http://filat.deviantart.com/art/Andreth-adaneth-83372837) and me are angry at you for even thinking that!

[Pitchwife]

Ah, but sally and Nerwen, you're forgetting that Lalaith was resurrected and Maiarized by Ulmo, so bringing Finrod back from Mandos wouldn't have been an unsurmountable problem.
I think I can see how it happened...

Eru: Ulmo, My son, what do you think you're doing? You can't just withhold My Gift from one of My Younger Children and make her one of your Maiar. You know that's against the axan. What's worse, it's also uncanonical.
Ulmo: *sighs* You tell her that. I tried to...
Eru: Dear Lalaith, My Beloved Child, of course you want to see your friends, geese and family again; and so you shall, when My Second Music will be sung and Arda will be healed. But now it is time for you to move on beyond the circles of the world to a much better fate I have prepared for you. Arda Marred is no place for a young girl like you. You have suffered enough there in your short life, you deserve better. Trust Me and see!
Lalaith: But I want to! I'm awesome and cute, and I want to! Now! *stomps foot* Besides, if you don't let me, I'll put lizards in your pillow!
Eru: *throws up hands in frustration* OK then...
Morgoth (who has been eavesdropping): *snickers* Serves you right, old man!

[Urwen]

Yeah-short life.That's where the trouble lies...

She could have lived normal lifespan and went to the Void peacefully.Oh,yes, she could,were it not for some killer who all of you think awesome...

[Formendacil]

Yeah-short life.That's where the trouble lies...

She could have lived normal lifespan and went to the Void peacefully.Oh,yes, she could,were it not for some killer who all of you think awesome...

One need not think Maedhros awesome to think him innocent in this matter.

For that matter, one need not think Eöl, Sauron, Mîm, Andróg, Ar-Pharazôn, or Bill Ferny are awesome in order to pronounce them innocent on this score. Personally speaking, I'm rather fond of Maedhros, and see him as one of the more admirable members of the Finwëan royal house, and one of the most tragic, but that's beside the point. Unlike my silly list of characters given just above, Maedhros, it is true, is connected with the plague that caused Lalaith's death, but this is in no way incriminating. Unfortunate, but not incriminating.

Of course, it's also worth point out that I don't think Lalaith is awesome (unless we mean the Bianca-avatared Downs version). She's a child--undeniably cute and probably endearing... but does she strike a sense of "awe"?

No.

[Loslote]

Lalaith: I am really Morgoth in disguise!

But this theory makes so much sense! :eek:

'And I fear that the Marrer, working even through the whim of this child...'

WHAT? Morgoth working through Lalaith?!

He (http://tuuliky.deviantart.com/art/Finrod-in-Nargothrond-140657540), she (http://filat.deviantart.com/art/Andreth-adaneth-83372837) and me are angry at you for even thinking that!

What do Finrod and Andreth have to do with anything? Andreth never even met her, as far as I know. And neither did Finrod. And Nerwen didn't say Morgoth was working through Lalaith. She said Morgoth was Lalaith. :p (Admitedly this was a joke, but I am inclinded to have a bit more fun with it. :Merisu: )

[Nerwen]

Ah, but sally and Nerwen, you're forgetting that Lalaith was resurrected and Maiarized by Ulmo, so bringing Finrod back from Mandos wouldn't have been an unsurmountable problem.
I think I can see how it happened...

Eru: Ulmo, My son, what do you think you're doing? You can't just withhold My Gift from one of My Younger Children and make her one of your Maiar. You know that's against the axan. What's worse, it's also uncanonical.
Ulmo: *sighs* You tell her that. I tried to...
Eru: Dear Lalaith, My Beloved Child, of course you want to see your friends, geese and family again; and so you shall, when My Second Music will be sung and Arda will be healed. But now it is time for you to move on beyond the circles of the world to a much better fate I have prepared for you. Arda Marred is no place for a young girl like you. You have suffered enough there in your short life, you deserve better. Trust Me and see!
Lalaith: But I want to! I'm awesome and cute, and I want to! Now! *stomps foot* Besides, if you don't let me, I'll put lizards in your pillow!
Eru: *throws up hands in frustration* OK then...
Morgoth (who has been eavesdropping): *snickers* Serves you right, old man!
:D

On a slightly more serious note: really, you just can't allow random divine intervention and power-ups in these "what-if?" topics. It simply breaks the whole concept.

It's like saying, "Fiver the rabbit vs Godzilla? That's easy. Fiver wins!
Because El-ahrairah would turn him into a super-bunny! Yeah! Go rabbits!"

Of course, I suspect that's exactly how Urwen would tackle that scenario.:rolleyes:


Yeah-short life.That's where the trouble lies...

She could have lived normal lifespan and went to the Void peacefully.Oh,yes, she could,were it not for some killer who all of you think awesome...

Urwen, what makes you think Lalaith would have lived a long, peaceful life if she hadn't died of the plague? Really don't like her chances, myself.

[Urwen]

It's like saying, "Fiver the rabbit vs Godzilla? That's easy. Fiver wins!
Because El-ahrairah would turn him into a super-bunny! Yeah! Go rabbits!"

You know of Fiver? Not fair! He's supposed to be MY secret!:D

[Mithalwen]

*She rules, by the way, and don't let Mithalwen tell you any different.;)

She so doesn't.. she does naff all until until that humungous gloop turns up. Then she gets Finrod killed. Death was too good for her.

The only interesting women in Tolkien are blondes .... Galadriel, Idril, Nienor, Erendis, Eowyn. The brunettes are deified but dreary.

[Nerwen]

...And Mithalwen takes the bait!:p:D:smokin:

P.S. Erendis was "dark haired", anyway. Says so right here in Unfinished Tales.

[Nerwen]

You know of Fiver? Not fair! He's supposed to be MY secret!:D

I think you'll find quite a lot of people have read Watership Down, Urwen. Not that much of a secret, really.

[Mithalwen]

...And Mithalwen takes the bait!:p:D:smokin:

P.S. Erendis was "dark haired", anyway. Says so right here in Unfinished Tales.

Indeed, how strange... I must have her confused with someone else.. or that because her beauty was "unlike" and Numenoreans are usually dark haired and grey eyed I must have mentally transposed... how do you get three smileys in one post anyway...?

Some of us have even seen the film... always a mistake to take small children thinking it is a nice bunny story... if you want a kick-donkey bunny you need Bigwig. Or in a Tolkien context Isildur's hare (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=353378&postcount=271)(beats Legolas' paws down).

[Pitchwife]

Then she gets Finrod killed.
I'd think if anybody beyond Sauron and his pet wolves can be held responsible for that at all, it would have to be Beren, or actually rather Celegorm & Curufin. Luthien has an alibi - she was working on her escape from the tree-house at the time.
Caught the virus from Urwen already? :p

[Eorl of Rohan]

Why am I delighted to see a Watership Down reference in a Tolkien Forum? I must have never grown up...
Tolkien makes my heart leap with excitement, while Watership Down makes it all fluffy with content.

[Loslote]

It's like saying, "Fiver the rabbit vs Godzilla? That's easy. Fiver wins!
Because El-ahrairah would turn him into a super-bunny! Yeah! Go rabbits!"

I'd bet on Fiver. He's wicked smart. :smokin:

You know of Fiver? Not fair! He's supposed to be MY secret!

If he's your secret, then I'm not trusting you with any of mine. ;)

She so doesn't.. she does naff all until until that humungous gloop turns up. Then she gets Finrod killed. Death was too good for her.

The only interesting women in Tolkien are blondes .... Galadriel, Idril, Nienor, Erendis, Eowyn. The brunettes are deified but dreary.

Agreed. You all should read my Luthiet and Bereo story. :p

[Urwen]

But seriously,Lalaith could have lived to grow up. I mean,even Fiver's bro died of old age,not because General killed him! I mean,really...:D

[Mithalwen]

I'd think if anybody beyond Sauron and his pet wolves can be held responsible for that at all, it would have to be Beren, or actually rather Celegorm & Curufin. Luthien has an alibi - she was working on her escape from the tree-house at the time.
Caught the virus from Urwen already? :p

No I have been banging on about this for probably longer than she has been alive..Finrod would have been nowhere near the mutts if it hadn't been for the canary's crush or Mr Gormless... :D I never understand why Luthien is meant to be so powerful when she hasn't mastered the knack of getting round Daddy that most females have nailed by six months...

[Oddwen]

So...if we're changing indiscriminate parts of the Silmarillion to keep Lalaith alive, I want to introduce a character to Maedhros who can possibly persuade him to give up violence forever.

I've put a lot of thought into this. After a battle this elf-princess of no particular kingdom would come across him while he is wounded, and nurse him back to health, impressing him with her gentle and peacelike ways. She would be tall and womanly, with long blonde hair and piercing green eyes. She is very accomplished in singing, dancing, fainting, cooking, magick, healing, and killing only when absolutely needed.

The only flaw in her is that she looks exactly like me (http://one-733t-p0z3r.xanga.com/audio/117123891675/). Not that there's anything wrong with me, I thought I would give her some realism
so this serious character is not confused with a common Mary-Sue.

:Merisu:

[Nerwen]

The only flaw in her is that she looks exactly like me (http://one-733t-p0z3r.xanga.com/audio/117123891675/). Not that there's anything wrong with me, I thought I would give her some realism
so this serious character is not confused with a common Mary-Sue.

:Merisu:

Oh good. I'm glad we've got that point cleared up.;)

[Urwen]

I'm baaaackkk!!!

And I thought up a good scenario.

(At harbour)

Cirdan:Who goes?

Goose:I!

Cirdan:Come back here!!! (chases goose)

(Meanwhille,Lalaith and gang sneak up onto ship and hide in chameleonic way.Geese join them and also hide in chameleonic way...)

[Nerwen]

(Meanwhille,Lalaith and gang sneak up onto ship and hide in chameleonic way.Geese join them and also hide in chameleonic way...)

Chameleonic?:confused:

What is she now, Predator!Lalaith?

[Loslote]

Chameleonic?:confused:

What is she now, Predator!Lalaith?

No, Lost World-Chamo-Dinosaur!Lalaith! :D

[Pitchwife]

Looks like this thread won't die for anything short of having its head cut off and placed between its buttocks...:eek::D

For clarification, are we still in the alternative timeline where Lalaith became Goldberry, or have I missed something?

[Urwen]

Hey,maybe Maedhros sold Lalaith into slavery! *doubles over laughing*:p

[Nerwen]

For clarification, are we still in the alternative timeline where Lalaith became Goldberry, or have I missed something?
No idea. I think we disallowed that one a while back, and anyway it doesn't really make much difference– Goldberry wasn't a chameleon, either.

Hey,maybe Maedhros sold Lalaith into slavery! *doubles over laughing*

Er... yes... maybe he did...

What does that have to do with anything, Urwen?

[Urwen]

Nothing.Just another joke.

Btw,check out those:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/archive/index.php?t-15695.html

http://digimonforum13.proboards.com/index.cgi

http://www.ghibli36.proboards.com/index.cgi

[Nerwen]

Nothing.Just another joke.

Btw,check out those:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/archive/index.php?t-15695.html

http://digimonforum13.proboards.com/index.cgi

http://www.ghibli36.proboards.com/index.cgi

Why?:confused:

[Urwen]

Because you might be interested in them,o,mighty one...:rolleyes:

[Nerwen]

Ah. Are those last two your forums, Urwen?

[Urwen]

The last one is. The middle one belongs to my friend.

[Nerwen]

The last one is. The middle one belongs to my friend.

And you're seeking members, are you?

[Urwen]

Exactly.

[satansaloser2005]

I'd join, but I'm not a big enough goat....erm, geek to join another forum. I'm sure one will come along for you though. :)

[Loslote]

I second Nerwen - why? Per'aps Urwen is really just a well-disguised spambot...:eek:

And "selling into slavery" isn't the same thing as "killing", so it doesn't even support your argument.

[satansaloser2005]

I second Nerwen - why? Per'aps Urwen is really just a well-disguised spambot...:eek:

And "selling into slavery" isn't the same thing as "killing", so it doesn't even support your argument.

But but but but I said it and was clever about it. Come on now, a little respect. ;)

Yeah, I don't get it either. But I'm sure Urwen has an explanation.

[satansaloser2005]

Hey,maybe Maedhros sold Lalaith into slavery! *doubles over laughing*:p

And maybe he then went and ate a gallon of rice pudding! *laughs with you*

Oh wait. That's not relevant either. Nor sensical. At least we're on the same page then! ;)

[Galadriel]

This is one of those incredibly pointless threads, where everyone knows (or thinks they know) the answer, because this topic has no definite beginning or end, and that is perhaps the very reason why people want to to ON debating about it, even though they know it will never reach an answer.

Er...did that make any sense? O.O

[Eönwë]

This is one of those incredibly pointless threads, where everyone knows (or thinks they know) the answer, because this topic has no definite beginning or end, and that is perhaps the very reason why people want to to ON debating about it, even though they know it will never reach an answer.

People are debating the answer to this thread!?

Really? I think I must be missing something... :rolleyes:

[Blind Guardian]

Did Maedhros kill Laughter? No she was hit by a Volts-Waggon Beatle!

[the phantom]

People are debating the answer to this thread!?

Really? I think I must be missing something...
No, everyone else is missing something, as you are quite right- the answer no longer requires any debate. I settled things once and for all here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=629178#post629178), where I proved that Maedhros did indeed kill Lalaith. Everything after that is completely pointless.
No she was hit by a Volts-Waggon Beatle!
Okay, now you're just being ridiculous! In HoME XIV Tolkien states quite clearly that Morgoth did not unleash his VW Beatles until the War of Wrath against the Valar.

And can I just add that I never imagined in my wildest dreams that a toddler could receive this amount of fangirl love.

[Blind Guardian]

Orcs driving VW Beatles! Uh-oh....

I like your analagy except for the eating hand part. Maybe she dug it up, then went gross and dropped it, and, of course, never washed her hands. It would be so much simpler then saying she ate it!

[Nerwen]

This is one of those incredibly pointless threads, where everyone knows (or thinks they know) the answer, because this topic has no definite beginning or end, and that is perhaps the very reason why people want to to ON debating about it, even though they know it will never reach an answer.

Er...did that make any sense? O.O

I think the point of this thread now, in so far as it has one, is that we're waiting for Urwen to come up with a remotely plausible Lalaith-saves-the-world scenario.

[Eönwë]

I think the point of this thread now, in so far as it has one, is that we're waiting for Urwen to come up with a remotely plausible Lalaith-saves-the-world scenario.

Without any spine-ripping or mutant goose action, basically.

[Rikae]

What is this thread of slander against my dear Russandol, and how did I miss it? He wouldn't hurt a fly, I assure you. A mosquito, maybe... a spider, if I wasn't there to catch it for him, but really. As irritating as the young girls in our household get, he wouldn't harm a hair on their heads, and they have to be far more annoying than Urwen ever was.

Now, as for killing "laughter", he has certainly been known to make an awkward remark now and then that had the effect of, if not actually killing, knocking laughter unconscious for a good while. But that's not the same thing.

[Galadriel]

Without any spine-ripping or mutant goose action, basically.

Yes. That is what 'remotely plausible' means. :p

[satansaloser2005]

Can't you read the sign?

"Please don't feed the trolls."

:p



Is anyone else just waiting to see what Urwen comes up with next? Personally, I'm hoping for metamorphing Oompa Loompas this time. :D

[Loslote]

Is anyone else just waiting to see what Urwen comes up with next? Personally, I'm hoping for metamorphing Oompa Loompas this time. :D

...with flying spork sidekicks! You forgot the flying spork sidekicks! :rolleyes:

[satansaloser2005]

...with flying spork sidekicks! You forgot the flying spork sidekicks! :rolleyes:

*gasps* I did! Oh my soap, I'm sorry! Please forgive me for my oversight!



Can we just turn this thread into "most ridiculous fix-its ever" and get it over with? ;)

[Nerwen]

What is this thread of slander against my dear Russandol, and how did I miss it? He wouldn't hurt a fly, I assure you. A mosquito, maybe... a spider, if I wasn't there to catch it for him, but really. As irritating as the young girls in our household get, he wouldn't harm a hair on their heads, and they have to be far more annoying than Urwen ever was.

Now, as for killing "laughter", he has certainly been known to make an awkward remark now and then that had the effect of, if not actually killing, knocking laughter unconscious for a good while. But that's not the same thing.
*cough* wrong SoF, Rikae *cough*
:p

[Rikae]

Not on Livejournal. :p

[Nerwen]

Not on Livejournal. :p
Oh I see. I didn't realize he was leading a double life.

[Galadriel55]

Urwen, I understand that you will defend Lalaith by any means, and so would I - but don't blame Maedhros for her death! It's not like he took a sword and chopped her in half. If you ask me, it was Morgoth's fault, since it was his evil spell that made so many people sick. If you still blame Maedhros, you've also got to blame the people who told Morgoth about the plans of the elves. AND you have to blame Thingol, Odroreth (I know I got the name wrong - I mean Finrod's brother) and other Elven kings for sending so little troops. If that's still not enough blaming, blame the Valar (ie Mandos) for cursing every deed of Noldor, blame Feanor for making the Silmarili, blame Yavanna for creating the Trees whose light is the reason for the Silmarils to be so beautiful, blame Eru for creating his Children who would then kill each other... Well, you can't really blame anyone above Eru, so I'll have to stop at that. Do you see my point? Morgoth is the most direct and relevant cause for Lalaith's death, and it's not Maedhros's fault that the epidemic came at this specific time and killed this specific girl.

PS: the butterfly incident could happen to anyone - it was also an accident. If you want to prevent a thing like that, you have to spend your whole life in bed.

[Galadriel]

Why in Middle-earth is this thread still alive?

[Galadriel55]

Why not? We're all trying to get Urwen to agree that Maedhros didn't mean to kill Lalaith. That statement is totally absurd - see my last post for my reasonings.

[Nerwen]

Why in Middle-earth is this thread still alive?

This is the thread that never ends,
Yes, it goes on and on, my friends.
Some people started posting here, not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue posting here forever, just because... (repeat ad infinitum)
:eek::eek::eek:

[Galadriel]

This is the thread that never ends,
Yes, it goes on and on, my friends.
Some people started posting here, not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue posting here forever, just because... (repeat ad infinitum)
:eek::eek::eek:

Ilúvatar in Eä...

We're all gonna die O.O

[Galadriel]

Why not? We're all trying to get Urwen to agree that Maedhros didn't mean to kill Lalaith. That statement is totally absurd - see my last post for my reasonings.

Listen. Even if we give the most logical argument in the history of logical arguments, Urwen shall not listen. That much is clear.

[Galadriel55]

well, then this thread will end when everyone will get bored of trying to reason with Urwen

[satansaloser2005]

well, then this thread will end when everyone will get bored of trying to reason with Urwen

But....I thought we already had....:eek::rolleyes::confused:

[Galadriel]

But....I thought we already had....:eek::rolleyes::confused:

Yes, we had.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

What you forget is that Galadriel55 is sturdy like the dwarves and does not tire.

Even in the face of trolls. Oh man, this is just like Middle-earth!

[Galadriel55]

hear, Urewn? Eomer of the Rohirrim is calling you a troll!

[satansaloser2005]

hear, Urewn? Eomer of the Rohirrim is calling you a troll!

Don't encourage her.


ETA: Urwen, that is, of course. Encourage Eomer all you like.

[Galadriel55]

This thread should really be in Mirth, the way it's going.

[Herald_of_Mandos]

This thread should really be in Mirth, the way it's going.
It was in Mirth, at one point. You see, this is such a unique thread that the mods can't quote decide where it does belong, and so it's been wandering the forums much as my own dear homeland wanders the globe. Indeed, I could almost say I feel a sense of kinship for this thread. We Serriffeans know too well what it is to be the object of universal mockery! *sheds bitter tear*

...Oh, wait, I'm not due here for another 5 months. See you all in April!

[Galadriel55]

I've actually bothered to read thru the entire thread, so I know that it was moved alot. That's why I posted the last comment - it should be moved to Mirth again, since we're not really discussing Maedhros or Lalaith anymore...

[Thinlómien]

I've actually bothered to read thru the entire thread, so I know that it was moved alot. That's why I posted the last comment - it should be moved to Mirth again, since we're not really discussing Maedhros or Lalaith anymore...Or maybe we should either return to the original topic or be quiet before the chat squirrel (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=641431&postcount=15) comes. :Merisu:

[satansaloser2005]

I die a little inside every time I see an update on this thread. My RL name means "purity". Does this mean Urwen killed purity? Discuss!

[Galadriel55]

Well, I don't think Urwen killed you. More like the downers like me who try to convince her .
Do you mind explaining a bit more about why you are dying?

And please forgive me for killing you a bit more by posting this.

[Urwen]

I will not give up my claim. He is hothead, after all.

[Blind Guardian]

Yes, Maedhros killed laughter.
No, it was an accident.

There.

Quick! Lock the thread!