Mandos Thread: DEAD ONLY! - WW LXXXVI

[Rikae]

Welcome to the halls of Mandos.

If you are alive, turn back now. Reading further constitutes cheating.

If you are dead, scroll down.


























































So, you're dead. Hey, it's not so bad.

Dead players may read this entire thread (as well as continuing to read the main game thread) and may post here Day or Night. By Day, you may vote for a living player to be given a double vote in that Day's lynch. The living player chosen will not know that xe has this power.

Every Night (beginning when there are at least 3 dead), you can vote for one dead player, and I will reveal whether that player is a wolf or not (cobblers and gifteds will show as simply "innocent").

Participation in the Mandos thread is optional. No modfire is awaiting anyone.

Deadline is still 11 pm EST. Tied votes will now be decided by a coin toss.

Seriously, if you aren't dead, stop reading now. Winning a game unfairly is no win at all.
I know where you live.

The Dead:
*your name here*

[Macalaure]

Cold are the Halls of the Dead, cold and empty, and of inconceivable vastness. In these years of peace, not many an Elf comes to this place, and the ones who have been here before have either left to walk the shores of the Undying Lands... or have grown quiet, and withdrawn. This was the place Rikae and Mac came to just one night ago, but they were now hiding, in shame over their inadequate guard, and would not talk to anyone*.

Now Mänwe came to stay in Mandos' halls as well, and the Vala spoke to him:

"O Mänwe of the People of the Noldor. You, that you have once in foolishness turned your backs to the Powers of the West, her now my words. I know of the struggles that you and your party have been put to, and I vow to aid you in your hardship. Sad it has to be, and disheartening, to be lynched by your own kind, and to be suspected of such monstrosities. You, and those of your brethren that are sure to follow you, will be given might to affect the world of the living - a gift I have not yet awarded to any of your kind. Maybe, if one of you will move my heart, be it by valor or by love, will be given the opportunity to return to the living, but that will yet remain to be seen.

"For now, rest, o Noldo, and let the weariness of life and travail leave your spirit. Soon the time will come for you again have influence on those who took your body from you so wrongfully."

*~*

Dead players

Rikae and Mac - killed (and self-silenced) during Night1 - Mods
Mänwe - lynched on Day1


Once at least three (proper) people are dead, you will be able to vote for one fellow dead player at Night and learn whether s/he is a wolf or not. Even though you don't have anything to do yet except to wait for Day and company, the thread is all yours! :D

*(we were very tempted to let ourselves run free in the dead thread, but decided not to)

[Mänwe]

:D - oh come on Mac, Rikae I say let yourself run free...it'll only disturb those of the living and that's what "ghosts" do best!

Otherwise i'll have to set a record for the most consecutive posts or does Mandos have rules about that sort of thing here?

N.B. Fools

[Rikae]

If we post, though, how will we explain our total lack of knowledge? Only one of us is American, so that won't work.

As for rules, the only one I can think of is: all dead must make at least sixteen posts per Day and Night or be killed.
:D

[Mänwe]

Haha! I like that one.

As for you posting..doesn't have to be WW related to this current game does it? I mean..you both could still have a lot to say as dead useless guards. :D

[Rikae]

You have company...

The living:

Nogrod
Aganzir
Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
Wilwa
Legate
Lommy
Nessa
Blind Guardian
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel
Fea

The dead:
Macalaure
Rikae
Mänwe
Shasta

Day 2 has begun! Dead people, you can assign the day's double vote.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I kind of saw this coming, to be honest, but I'm infuriated nonetheless.

Hi, Manwe. I'll be going back to the land of the living in a little bit, anything you care to tell me?

Edit: Crossed with Rikae. Well, my vote is obvious, but I'm holding it for a moment - are these votes retractable at all, or not?

I mean, I'll obviously be voting for Agan, but I'm a little confused on when I'll be going back and if her having the double vote is likely to get her killed by the wolves. Of course, if she reveals like she planned to then that should be obvious, in which case it won't matter, but still.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Also I would like, very much, for them to lynch Nog today. Agan thinks he's a baddie as much as I do, but if she doesn't vote for him then I may vote to double the vote of someone that has.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Or, I wonder if Glirdan set me up? That wouldn't surprise me, given that post of his - "oh I've seen Shasta act like this before and that time he was the Seer" - he's another I wouldn't mind seeing get the axe. Jerk.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

But hey, when there's no one to hear you scream (except other ghosts) then you can be as loud as you want to! :p

Where is everyone? I'm lonely and want to discuss... things.

[Rikae]

I originally wanted to make the votes retractable, but forgot to mention it, and now I don't think it would be fair to change it a Day in, so: no retractions.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I originally wanted to make the votes retractable, but forgot to mention it, and now I don't think it would be fair to change it a Day in, so: no retractions.

Well, this is still the first time there'd be any voting in the dead thread, but I can see how not having stated in the rules you might be leery of putting that in after the fact. Okay. :)

[Rikae]

True, but in that case I should probably change it for the living, too.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

True, but in that case I should probably change it for the living, too.

I don't think it would make much difference if the dead votes were retractable and the living votes weren't - the living votes are much more important, after all. But I'm cool with them being nonretractable too. :)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oh, Phantom. Of course you're going to try and head off a Nogwagon before it starts - he was your strongest supporter yesterday. You're doing nothing but making sure your own tail is safe by defending Nog. I hope people can see that.

[Mänwe]

Not for want of drudging up the topic but,

Whatever... I am so remembering why I haven't played for so long.

I've noticed a distinct difference in atmosphere from the last game in some quarters..I hope it doesn't engulf the campsite.

~~

Ah Shasta, welcome, so i'll have company for today only..does that mean I speak with a lover or the great Glorf I wonder, well time will tell. Still you'll be back again shortly if you speak amongst the living...I wonder oh mod-Valar, will Shasta[/B ]when returned to the living have to post and vote?

Of course you're going to try and head off a Nogwagon before it starts...You're doing nothing but making sure your own tail is safe by defending [b]Nog. I hope people can see that.

It does look a little like that. But wouldn't it have been safer to wait for someone else to post first, deriding the Nogwagon as would surely happen, before doing so himself?

Hi, Manwe. I'll be going back to the land of the living in a little bit, anything you care to tell me?{my bold}

Not much apart from i've no gift, no evil and will remain in these halls. Lommy being questioned about a vote so early and for me is fine, if I were Lommy (or anyone else) I would have targeted a Mänwe too; two wolves played a quiet game last time and i've always stressed the need to try a lynching of a quiet player on the off (a shame on this occasion they're wrong again and this might benefit evil as folk may skip voting quiet players for a few days). Plus, at the moment she's playing like she did last game and she was an innocent, so it might be worth watching how people develop any case against her today.

Your issues with Nog well..his behaviour is a little suspect, trying to ellicit discord and temper in the camp wouldn't help (if he were an ordo)..and theres his reply to your reaction where he didn't attempt to diffuse the situation. He calls out that reaction, during a post where he voted for you..and this came after you voted for him so his own reaction makes him more suspect, especially as he goes on to vote for you.

and phantom i'm inclined to think ordo or phobbler.

Can't add anything about others just yet.

[Rikae]

When someone returns from the dead it is mentioned in the narration, and they are again subject to the same modfire rules as the rest of the living.

[Rikae]

Rule clarification:

the dead thread is to the living as PM's are to normal game threads: returning dead can paraphrase, but not directly quote, dead-thread posts.

[Mänwe]

Ah, so I will be seeing you again Shasta (if you do infact return)...you posting again will be like sitting on a silver platter with an apple in your mouth :D

edit: x'ed- thanks for the clarification!

[Mänwe]

Everyone seems still (understandably) very much focused on Nog and phantom and there hasn't been as much fallout for Lommy as I thought there would. Will be back later with some more comments.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well, then, at least you weren't the Seer, then. Oh, and I'm Luthien, of course.

And since Beren has revealed himself...

++Aganzir

Rikae, assuming Agan lives through the night, will I be in the dead thread long enough to see whether the person lynched toDay is a wolf or innocent, assuming Manwe and I both vote him/her?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Also, I'm almost past the point of caring, but Nog tends to bash me after I'm dead in many games I'm in with him. It's just too bad for him that I'm going to be coming back to defend myself - he doesn't do so hot when people are actually alive to defend themselves, now does he?

Of course, I still hope he gets lynched today. Then I won't have to bother.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oh, and re: Nerwen/Ang/Phantom - I'm just a naturally talkative ghost. :p

I do think Lommy has an interesting point, though - although the scenario in which I was killed because I was flirting with Nerwen would require the wolves to be Elra/Mith/Ang, virtually, as basically everyone else knows I'm Nerwen's lord and she is my lady. :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

To clarify - Nog thinks I 'messed it up' and got myself killed by daring to call him out on his insults. :rolleyes:

But I'll stop. Focusing on that is not productive.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oh, and - after this, four more posts to go for my 16-posts-per-day-and-night quota. :D

[Shastanis Althreduin]

And another thing. Lommy's bit of "oh the fact that Shasta was a Lover makes me suspect Nog less" seems to me a bit forced. I'm not following her logic at all there, and yes, I know she 'explained' it later, but I'm still not. It doesn't make sense to me, because like Phantom said, there was no reason for me to be hinting (and I wasn't) so why would the wolves even be looking for such things?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I almost feel bad for the next person to die, forced to read all my ramblings... but dangit, I'm dead early on and I'm going to ramble! :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Nogrod is either bad or an idiot, and since I don't (necessarily) think he's an idiot, he's got to be bad. That's really all there is to it. Do you see what he's doing, alive people? Do you see?!

Plus he called me stupid. He deserves to die for that alone. But, sadly, it's kind of what I look for nowadays, like a rule of werewolf - if I'm dead and Nog is alive, he's going to bash me. That's basically how games go.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'll make a list of what I think soonish. Manwe, anything you can contribute that I can take back with me could help. :) Might as well be worth something.

[Rikae]

Clarification:
Anyone returning from the dead at the end of a given Night can read the dead thread narration posted at the Night's end, which will include the information on the chosen person's role, but nothing after this post (until xe dies again).

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Clarification:
Anyone returning from the dead at the end of a given Night can read the dead thread narration posted at the Night's end, which will include the information on the chosen person's role, but nothing after this post (until xe dies again).

Hooray! Thanks Rikae. :)

Hey, do you want to play chess or something? I'm sure we can find a chess set somewhere in Mandos.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Nog is deflecting by yelling at people for supposedly viewing the dead thread. I mean, I wouldn't put it past people just to click on it and leave, to get rid of the fact that it's bolded whenever there's a new post in it. And besides I'm sure I'm generating plenty of views myself.

In other news, Phantom looks to me like... hmm. I honestly think he looks more like a wolf than a cobbler, with regards to Nogrod and how he's slowly acqueiscing to a Nog lynch, but hopes to save him through sheer force of personality and reputation.

[Mänwe]

I'm not sure I follow why you've voted for and extra vote for Aganzir...she'll die regardless of what happens vote wise. Or is that just it...at this early stage of the game the other innocents will vote for Aganzir because they know its a safe vote as opposed to attempting a wolf lynch?

But in effect that just gives the wolves another "night off" as it were, they'll have no fear of being targeted. Would it not be more prudent to continue to follow your suspicions on other players and vote for them instead. e.g. Nog, ensuring he is lynched as you seem to want it to happen.

[Mänwe]

As for something to take back to the land of the living- i'll direct you back to my earlier more substantial post. Lommy, Nog, Phantom, Greenie are ones of particular interest to me.

An additional note- Legate has repeatedly emphasised that I am an easy lych, an often used scapegoat (page 6 through 7- between him and Anguirel). Apart from agreeing with him (:D), (and maybe i'm wrong because it seems so bluntly put) it seems as if he's trying to say something more about me..I don't know..like he knows im innocent because he's dreamed about me perhaps?

N.B. it's really trying to engulf the camp

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Manwe, do you understand the purpose of our voting? We're voting for one of the living. The living person we vote for will have an extra vote. So, therefore, we want to vote for someone we think is innocent. That's why I voted for Agan - so that her vote for Nog will count twice.

[Mänwe]

Oh good lord, I completely misread that rule then. I believed we were voting for..well you know..anyway I was wrong. :o

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oh good lord, I completely misread that rule then. I believed we were voting for..well you know..anyway I was wrong. :o

So if you feel like Nog is one to watch for, you might as well just vote for Agan, who's cleared and voting Nog. :)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

And I do hope no one uses the reasoning, like Legate's, of "I think Nog is a cobbler, it's better to have him around here" - that doesn't make any sense at all. Put him in Mandos, where he can do less harm (even if I don't particularly want to have to talk to him myself).

[Mänwe]

So if you feel like Nog is one to watch for, you might as well just vote for Agan, who's cleared and voting Nog. :)

Haha, quite. :)

[Rikae]

You know -
I'm going to exercise my divine right as a mod to be capricious and give the dead

1 retractable vote each per Day (or Night)

because retractable votes are cool.

(Man, I'm really enjoying watching the living speculate about this thread - interesting psychological experiment, just as I'd hoped. The attitude of "well, there's an afterlife, so it doesn't matter if I die or who I kill" is funny, too, in a somewhat disturbing way...:eek:)

[Mänwe]

(Man, I'm really enjoying watching the living speculate about this thread - interesting psychological experiment, just as I'd hoped. The attitude of "well, there's an afterlife, so it doesn't matter if I die or who I kill" is funny, too, in a somewhat disturbing way...:eek:)

Haha, very true.

~~

Bed time.

++Aganzir

[Shastanis Althreduin]

You know -
I'm going to exercise my divine right as a mod to be capricious and give the dead

1 retractable vote each per Day (or Night)

because retractable votes are cool.

(Man, I'm really enjoying watching the living speculate about this thread - interesting psychological experiment, just as I'd hoped. The attitude of "well, there's an afterlife, so it doesn't matter if I die or who I kill" is funny, too, in a somewhat disturbing way...:eek:)

I think it's pretty amusing, too, but I just hope people aren't really considering other people to actually be cheaters. I don't believe for a second anyone would break the rules - no one (yes, even Nog) would do such a thing.

[Mänwe]

Well that rule entry was fortuitous...and i'm glad I refreshed the page before leaving..but, I don't think i'll retract. Which might just make me wrong on two accounts.

edit: x'ed - fortuitous in light of alive thread

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oooh, Rikae, can I be in the narration as giving Agan her vote? Please? :D

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well that rule entry was fortuitous...and i'm glad I refreshed the page before leaving..but, I don't think i'll retract. Which might just make me wrong on two accounts.

Why would you be wrong? Her identity (and mine) are going to be proven tomorrow, if you're worried about voting for an innocent, and if you're worried about Nog having another vote, you said yourself you were worried about him.

[Mänwe]

Check the alive thread..for a Nog seer reveal.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

So I see. And what I see is...

Bull. Complete and utter crap, no way is Nog the Seer. No, no, and no. Phantom is right in that of course he'd 'reveal' at his point.

I also think worse of Lottie and Legate for buying it. He's clearly, clearly up to no good.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oh lord, and please don't let the Ranger buy it, if for some reason they don't lynch Nog. Can't they see all he's trying to do is get Agan killed so I can't come back? Not that I'd be able to do much, but still.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Phantom's making a lot of sense, but I wouldn't put completely out of my head the notion that he and Nog are on the same side. Nog, with his Seer reveal, is probably a cobbler at this point - and I won't trust him even if he shows up 'innocent' to us.

Glirdan is bad as well, given how he keeps sheeping onto the Phantom and backtracking "no, you're right, I'm wrong" etc.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

HAHAHA. Agan just pulled probably the best Lover-ploy I've ever seen! I love that girl. And by not acknowledging it, Nog fell right into her trap. That feels very nice.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Still, don't write off Phantom. I don't trust him and think he could definitely be piling on to Nobbler.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Also, I suspect that if Agan was lying about the lover thing, there would have been a much more exaggerated spate of Dead Thread posts in which Shasta spazzed out one way or another.



Would you like me to spazz, Fea darling? I could, just for you. ;)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Also, *snicker*. Ang, darling, I adore you.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Hi, Nog. I'd say "sorry to see you here", but I'm not particularly sorry. :)

[Macalaure]

And so the Halls of Mandos welcome the spirit of another Elven rider slain on the plains of Ard-galen. May healing and closure await the tormented and may the dead reflect and discourse with one another upon their past and future... and may this discourse be civil!

The living:

Aganzir
Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
wilwarin538
Legate of Amon Lanc
Thinlómien
Nessa Telrunya
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel
Feanor of the Peredhil


The dead:

Macalaure
Rikae
Mänwe
Shastanis Althreduin
Nogrod
Blind Guardian

Night 3 has begun! You may now vote for one of you to reveal whether he's a wolf or not.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Civil? When am I ever anything but civil?

Nogrod, on the other hand... oh, wait, no, I'm being civil, aren't I? Darn.

++Nogrod

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Also, hmm. According to the narration, BG had a role. If she was a cobbler/wolf, and the role was reassigned to an innocent, we're going to have to throw out all the interactions from the past two days. :( I hate starting over.

[Nogrod]

Hi, Nog. I'd say "sorry to see you here", but I'm not particularly sorry. :)Well you should as the village just lost their seer...

Okay, I'm a bit too agitated to make any further comments right now (and too tired to read this thread right now). But whatever it is, my only option seems to be dreaming of Mänwe toNight - as I trust you being the lover of Agan (whom I already know being Beren).

I'll be back later toNight though, but at the moment I'm not feeling too helpful. Vice versa. :( (= reaally disappointed)


So any sarcasm I found in your tone in wishing me welcome you can double from my part.

But Iwould like to say this.

If Rikae (and Mac?) ended up with you two being lovers, me being the seer and phantom being the cobbler, I do think the other roles are kind of tailored as well... Too fitting to be random?

Meta-reasoning, I know, but pretty believable taking in the evidence.


Anyway, to sleep now. See you later.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

It's going to be really funny after this game, because I'm going to quote you now (or paraphrase, anyway) -

"We shouldn't use people's emotional outbursts as signs of innocence - wolves have used them before!" :p

And I don't believe you're the seer for one second. Agan trapped you quite cleverly, I think. Given that you don't seem to care overmuch if we dream you down here, I'd say you're most likely a cobbler at this point, but we'll find out soon enough.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

To clarify - as an innocent, when Agan said "No, I'm Luthien", the correct response was something along the lines of "No, you're Beren/Rikae told me you were Beren/etc". Instead, you didn't even acknowledge her statement. It's pretty clear that you didn't have an answer prepared for that and couldn't think of one, so hoped no one would notice.

[Nogrod]

I thought of going to sleep but thought I'd send this idea to you.If Rikae (and Mac?) ended up with you two being lovers, me being the seer and phantom being the cobbler, I do think the other roles are kind of tailored as well... Too fitting to be random?

Meta-reasoning, I know, but pretty believable taking in the evidence.If that is true, then the wolves will be like Boro, Fea and Wilwa. Or change one or another from there. But the list does actualy fit with my list of suspcions (okay I suspect Greenie and Mith as well for a reason and many others with not so big reasons but gut felings)

Good Night anyway - if there is a night in Mandos?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I thought of going to sleep but thought I'd send this idea to you.If that is true, then the wolves will be like Boro, Fea and Wilwa. Or change one or another from there. But the list does actualy fit with my list of suspcions (okay I suspect Greenie and Mith as well for a reason and many others with not so big reasons but gut felings)

Good Night anyway - if there is a night in Mandos?

I think it's always twilight here. :) (See, I can be civil!)

[Rikae]

BG's role went to someone of the same alignment whose original role I deemed less important.

[Nogrod]

I don't believe you're the seer for one second. Agan trapped you quite cleverly, I think. Given that you don't seem to care overmuch if we dream you down here, I'd say you're most likely a cobbler at this point, but we'll find out soon enough.

See this post of mine from late D2. And think about the possibilities.

If I was a wolf or a cobbler I might have done some of the following ones as well, but if you think of it, I wouldn't have hang myself to these if I was not the seer...

So here's some what I put there for good and bad (I really feel bad now making the first ones)

A short list of my feelings before the voting (short on explanations as I don't have time to write any longer analysis).

Innocent:
Aganzir - Good posting, innocent vibes, feels like she's trying to find the answers that are for the benefit of the village.

Innocentish:
the phantom - Generally makes good points a wolf might not wish to make, it's just that a few of them do not let me pick him into category above.
Anguirel - Seems getting the idea of our good and makes posts a wolf-Ang probably wouldn't.
Mith - For her comment on Legate (and for that familiar annoyance against anything I say... if she were a wolf she would be nicer to me ).

Could go either way:
Legate - Seems too happy to jump on some things I do disagree, but on the other hand hasn't said or done anything really suspicious.
Lommy - Basically seems to have the hang of it but has the air of avoiding things or, well, what some others have said, over-stating things. Smething says I should not trust her but on the other hand I find nothing clear-cut wrong.
Nerwen - Like someone said before: both clearly up to the situation but still mainly just bantering (was online only relatively early on the Day so that might be understandable).

Slightly worried:
Boro - the way he jumps on someone (yes, me) trying to turn the discussion on a more fruitful ground by saying it's "spinning things for my purposes" (so you should read they are bad) and after being questioned about that by some others, changing his point into me being a pessimist (which wasn't the point of my message) and thus suspicious? Odd, from him.


Of others I have not much to say. But will probably vote for one of them others.Clearly separating Agan from others here but of course not saying she's a lover as that would have ben damming - and I felt bad afterwards making her this clearly innocent from others as I realisedc how terrible it would bre if the wolves realised I was the seer and thus I would have compromised the lovers. It's a minor comfort to me they picked the lover the other way around... but I do keep banging my head on he keabaorad for making that so evident in a game like this.

When it started looking bad and I needed to get to sleep, I felt I was forced to make this post (beginning of which is here: As time here passes away, I need to sleep and can't fight back against this bad idea spreading. So just read what I've said and make wise choises.

Agan - even if I think her innocent - on the contrary makes hasty choices. It is a debatable point whether we should lynch the "quiet" or "under-radar types" here or not. I do think they are easier to find out about in Mandos than here as it will be obvious some of the more active ones will end up there anyway. But as I said, the merits are relative.I still insisted Agan was innocent even if she ran for me, but the more important thing on this occasion is the bolded part.

Re-organise the words from the "AS TIME HERE" - it is easily turned into "I AM THE SEER".

An odd way to start a paragraph: "As time here passes away, I need to sleep" but normal enough that no one pays attention if not looking for it.


And to anyone willing to suspect my points, how could I have guessed Agan was innocent with that certitude and so unwilling to come more particular with it (telling I had the lover would have been a disaster!!!)? I did even say that I would not suspect her even if she was coming at me with full frontal attack toDay - before she decided to reveal her role.


I liked many of tp's points on D1 but something bugged me there, thus I dreamt of him last Night and found out he is a cobbler.

If the ranger helps me, I can take two more dreams in. I checked this. I can dream of anyone I wish when I'm alive when I fall asleep.

So I dream toNight being protected (hopefully), and if you will not lynch me on the next Day I can dream of a living person even if I get killed then the next Night. So moving to Mandos I'll have the dream of N4 and may be then continue the fight from there.
But surely if you're not willing to change your mind, or even honestly review it, then okay. Let's forget this thread then. :smokin:

I mean I'm really tired to argue with stubborn people who don't read things ...:confused:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

BG's role went to someone of the same alignment whose original role I deemed less important.

Oh, good! Okay. :)

Now, by the wording of that I think BG could have been a wolf, and her role could have gone to someone who was originally a cobbler, but it could just as easily be that she was the Seer/Ranger and her role went to an ordo. It all depends on what the alignment of 'cobbler' is considered to be, I suppose. Something to think about, anyway.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Do you think I haven't been following the game thread the entire time, Nog? I saw your post, and Phantom has said much the same (although I already know you're going to claim that he's a cobbler and to disregard everything he's said) - there's nothing to suggest that you didn't make those hints specifically because you knew you'd want to false-reveal as the Seer at some point, and everything to suggest that if you were the Seer you'd never have done such a thing since there was no need.

[Nogrod]

BG's role went to someone of the same alignment whose original role I deemed less important.the lovers are taken, the seer is killed, so what?

Hopefully not a new wolf?

If he was the ranger, I will declare him a non-desirable in any of my games to come and I will strongly suggest to others they should decline his requests as well... I think he has been a "non-player" in a few games in a row by now. Well in principle, any role he had...

[Nogrod]

Do you think I haven't been following the game thread the entire time, Nog? I saw your post, and Phantom has said much the same (although I already know you're going to claim that he's a cobbler and to disregard everything he's said) - there's nothing to suggest that you didn't make those hints specifically because you knew you'd want to false-reveal as the Seer at some point, and everything to suggest that if you were the Seer you'd never have done such a thing since there was no need.Oh my... your stubborness might be a big problem here. Well, your panicking first and you not being able to admit you were wrong will be.

But I'm hopeful as I can dream of everyone coming in here, so maybe you can be persuaded one by one?

Wel I hope so, as we have a common mission here and it seems we have a relatively good start as we can really find ageement. Well we should t least...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oh my... your stubborness might be a big problem here. Well, your panicking first and you not being able to admit you were wrong will be.

But I'm hopeful as I can dream of everyone coming in here, so maybe you can be persuaded one by one?

Wel I hope so, as we have a common mission here and it seems we have a relatively good start as we can really find ageement. Well we should t least...

Excuse me? Excuse me? Panicking? Really?

...

No, I'm not even going to bother. Rising to the bait is exactly what you want me to do and I'm not buying it.

I'll just sit here quietly and wait for Manwe to vote you.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well, I say things like that, and then come up with a point that has to be pointed out. :rolleyes:

We, as a group (the dead) should only be voting to reveal the role of those who meet their death via the lynch. As the dead can only be revealed as "innocent" or "wolf", we already know that anyone killed by the wolves is not a "wolf"; therefore they're automatically "innocent", whether ordo, Gifted, or cobbler. Voting for someone sent here via wolf-kill is pointless as we already know the outcome.

That was probably obvious, but I felt the need to point it out nonetheless.

[Rikae]

Yeah, Nog, I think I remember BG pulling this stunt before as well. A ban from signing up for games might be in order.

[Nogrod]

I'll just sit here quietly and wait for Manwe to vote you.I suggest he should do that. And you as well.

Rikae: Can I vote myself for my role to be revealed?

[Rikae]

Nog: of course.

[Nogrod]

Shasta, I'm really sorry about my language 12 hours ago, but I was soo freaking frustrated back then on why you didn't get what I was trying to say and which seemed so obvious to me...

But now I think I understand better and see I had ignored at least one major issue back there. And that actually changes things - making also your reluctance to believe me quite more understandable.

For I had somehow managed to ignore Agan's bluff where she said she was Lúthien... I should have noted it and refuted it.

The fun part of this is that I actually remember seeing that "revelation" but I just skimmed it as her saying she was a lover, not realising she said it the wrong way.

But then again, and to my believabilty, I did say she is Beren from the get-go quite openly and never claimed she was Lúthien. Because she isn't. She is Beren.


So, I do apologise again from you, and hope you will see why I reacted that way: having not reacted to that bluff by Agan, which you understandably interpreted as me bluffing, I was totally puzzled and frustrated why you didn't see my point...

[Nogrod]

Okay. I finally got to read this thread as well. And I can see where the wind blows. :confused:

*headdesk*

Anyway, we have to pull our act together now.

You Shasta may say and think what you say and think about that call for unity. But I do hope you listen and think closely now for a moment.


I was playing bad on D2, I admit and do apologise again for it (too tired, too involved, too many glasses of wine...). That being as it is, we should really concentrate. The village has basically lost the lovers who could bring some real info to the game - and they have lost their seer a few Days too early.

That means, I really think my place is here, I just would have wished to enter here a bit later. Now we have to hope the ranger manages to keep her/himself alive for a while before visiting us - who should have then a solid act going on here.

I mean this game is going to be played in here in the end and we have a chance of pulling this together now before the wolves and cobblers enter this domain.


Mänwe is an ordinary innocent. I dreamt that toNight.

It's a no brainer to say you Shasta are Lúthien.

I am the seer who knows that Agan is Beren and the phantom is cobbler.


I'm very happy to join the vote toNight for one of us:

++ Nogrod

I guess that does it as there are two votes for me now.


And I can tell you what Rikae will tell us as a result. She will say I'm an innocent.

Now that will rule out the possibility for you I'm a wolf. Ditto.


You still have a few options to speculate upon for sure.

Let's see...

I am the ranger?
I would have cursed differently if I was.

I am an ordinary innocent?
Maybe, but this isn't exactly a game where ordos should pull that kind of fake-seer -stunts... or to get that agitated if they were just going to get into this interesting new thread. Not to talk of keeping up the deceit on this thread.


So you have basically two options: I'm either a cobbler or the seer as I say I am, and am.

I do wish you to contemplate the following for a moment before making your judgement.

I know I can't show you any proof of me being the seer other than what I have said already. And yes, I know a cobbler willing to pull a stunt could have done something along the lines I did - although it would have required quite a bold act and a lot of luck to hit it right with Agan on D1 (remember that to a cobbler her role would have been a shot in the dark). There was no way a cobbler could have guessed that - and the possibility of that being revealed would have meant instant doom for him. So a bit risky, even in this kind of a game.

And really, because I knew her to be Beren there was no way I would have said that aloud. I already complained to Rikae, that that N1 dream was the worst ever. I needed to put Agan up on as the only innocent on D1 in case there were competing seer-revelations later in the game, so I had to have something to show if it came to that on D6 or something.

And anyway, would a cobbler have gotten that involved and / or personally annoyed? Like the ordinary innocent, I think a cobbler would have actually loved to get in here - especially if there was a hope some people would have thought him the seer! That would have been perfect for a cobbler! So, no reason to sound bitter or be angry.

Which brings me to the last fact I think you should consider.

I really got agitated in the end of D2 seeing the general vote coming towards me as I just didn't understand where it came from (thinking of it now I can see my failing to pick up Agan's bluff could be one, but I do still think there were other forces behind that lynch of mine). As a seer that was the worst possible thing to happen. So I saw the village losing their seer way too early (combined with the fact that the wolves had picked you lovers already) and was frustrated.

I hope you Shasta can see in this light why I was so ****ed off when I met your sarcastic attitude of me being a baddie for certain in here then? After reading both threads now I can see where your distrust arose and I think we both were stupid not willing to listen to each other.

And I was a moron. But let's not discuss that anymore. I'm pretty ashamed of myself enough already.

I just hope you can see now what was the reason behind my flaming annoyance and agitation back there.

We should not let these hot feelings - already calmed on my side I must add - to destroy the game for the village.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Agan's bluff occured in #354. Phantom references it exclusively in #356 (as in, the entire post is about it). Your post #357 is one I'm willing to believe you made soon after, and I'm even willing to buy that you didn't go back and read Agan's and Phantom's posts. What I'm not buying is that you also ignored Fea's #358, Ang's #362, Wilwa's #363, and even if you never went back and read those after having posted your #364, you never acknowledged Phantom's point in #365 about a coded Agan-hint, and you continued to ignore continued references to the trap in Agan's #366, Mith's #367, Wilwa's veiled reference in #368 ("it's pretty clear he's not the Seer"), Ang's #371... even though you posted after that at #374, in response to Phantom's post (the reason I say you never acknowledged the point is that you didn't respond to the difference between 'hint' and 'code' - which Phantom himself mentions in #376.) Agan makes known that she's bluffing in #378, and you didn't even acknowledge that. Loslote makes yet another reference to it in #388 and Agan specifically re-mentions it in #394.

I find it extremely hard to believe you failed to see all of this.

And added to that, you claim to have dreamt of Agan. I'm sure you can see that you said nothing about her being a Lover before her reveal (which is good), but you can also see that does nothing to prove that you're the seer. The fact that you placed Agan high on your list doesn't mean much - it could easily be argued that you, as a cobbler, were putting up people you found innocent as suggestions for wolf-kills - "Maybe if enough people find person X innocent, the wolves will go after them!" It certainly doesn't add to your credibility as much as you seem to think it does. I really am sorry - I was also probably over-harsh, dying early with a role tends to make me mad... but then again, you do tend to bash me after I'm dead. "Oh, Shasta played stupidly, it's his own fault he's dead," et cetera, things you'd probably never say if I was alive to refute them. You really did hurt my feelings, quite a lot - and this isn't the first game you've done so, either.

TL;DR - I'm sorry, but I still can't believe you're the Seer.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

--Nogrod
++Manwe

At this point, given that Nogrod has voted himself, I'm pretty confident that he will, indeed, show up as innocent - which would mean cobbler or Seer (I'm obviously leaning heavily toward the former). Manwe, your role is completely unknown, and Fea has a point - would you mind just confirming for us that you're not a wolf? :)

[Nogrod]

Rikae: A question concerning the rules.

When Shasta goes back toMorrow is he "only" alive or is he also in here aka. does he have a right to check this dead-thread as well during D3?

It is once again past midnight here and for everyone's sanity I'm not going to hang in here making analyses the whole Night, but if Shasta can check in here on D3 I could actually try to help us looking at the thread tomorrow.



If the answer is negative - as I'm afraid it is - then here's a little for you Shasta.

I say Boro is not a goodie.

I'm afraid some of the old-timer non-suspects Fea, Mith, Ang, Wilwa are wolves. I'd need to check that for any more specified thoughts though. And that will not be tonight as I'm going to sleep now.

phantom is a cobbler as I said. That's knowledge. And I think you already saw that yourself from here.

Lommy, Greenie, Legate... hmm.. It's quite usual I'm this undecided with them. But let's say I'd be surprised if they were all goodies.



Let's see whom we get here toMorrow?


EDIT x'd with Shasta X 2

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Rikae: A question concerning the rules.

When Shasta goes back toMorrow is he "only" alive or is he also in here aka. does he have a right to check this dead-thread as well during D3?

It is once again past midnight here and for everyone's sanity I'm not going to hang in here making analyses the whole Night, but if Shasta can check in here on D3 I could actually try to help us looking at the thread tomorrow.



If the answer is negative - as I'm afraid it is - then here's a little for you Shasta.

I say Boro is not a goodie.

I'm afraid some of the old-timer non-suspects Fea, Mith, Ang, Wilwa are wolves. I'd need to check that for any more specified thoughts though. And that will not be tonight as I'm going to sleep now.

phantom is a cobbler as I said. That's knowledge. And I think you already saw that yourself from here.

Lommy, Greenie, Legate... hmm.. It's quite usual I'm this undecided with them. But let's say I'd be surprised if they were all goodies.



Let's see whom we get here toMorrow?


EDIT x'd with Shasta X 2

I'm allowed to check the results of the Night's vote, but nothing after that, until I'm dead again.

[Mänwe]

I am of course, an innocent. Will be back to comment later.

++Mänwe

[Nogrod]

--Nogrod
++Manwe

At this point, given that Nogrod has voted himself, I'm pretty confident that he will, indeed, show up as innocent - which would mean cobbler or Seer (I'm obviously leaning heavily toward the former). Manwe, your role is completely unknown, and Fea has a point - would you mind just confirming for us that you're not a wolf? :)Mänwe is an ordinary innocent. I told you. And he is.

Well Shasta, it's one step forwards you see I'm not a wolf.

Let's make the next step then?

Okay, got your info about your status with this thread. Too late for me to dive into the thread now to make any more specifics.

I hope I could answer your points from the post before this. But I can't. I totally missed that. I do remember seen some of the points you mentioned and recall thinking that the people are talking about something I don't understand what they are doing and it must be something not that important... :(

Had it not been 5am I might have seen that.

Anyway, I spent most of the time that last hour writing stupid jeremiads and hate it now. So I really just eyed them as I was more interested in the way the voting was going. Which I think you might understand.


I'm very sorry and apologise once again if I have hurt you. That was and is not my intenton. You know, it's not personal but game-related. But like you say: "dying early with a role tends to make me mad..." - and I think we both had reason to be mad about it, not only personally, but also because of the village.

I was more or less paranoid there in the end of D2 and you scorning me wasn't exactly helping... :rolleyes:

I can prove it to you I'm the seer only when the game is over - and I do hope you understand my reactions to that lynch then (like you say you go mad when killed early with an important role).

Just think one more time: would I have acted like that if I was just a cobbler?

That would mean I would have been only maliciously bashing you with no reason, just for the fun of it? Surely you can't believe that?

I had a reason to be mad as I was the seer lynched and you were not believing it. Think about it fex. changing our roles for a moment. How would you have reacted if the roles were the other way around?

[Nogrod]

Just think one more time: would I have acted like that if I was just a cobbler?

That would mean I would have been only maliciously bashing you with no reason, just for the fun of it? Surely you can't believe that? Just thinking of it once more... wouldn't a cobbler me have acted differently?

What would a cobbler win by fighting a more or less known innocent?

I can answer that: nothing.

So ask yourself one more time: was I on top of my act and maliciously weaving a well thought out plot that included being agitated and annoyed with you, or whether the more believable explanation is that I was both frustrated as being the lynched seer too early in the game more or less making my role redundant and tired & off enough to be that cranky?

Which one?

Okay. All the best to you in the thread toMorrow. I'll keep my thumbs up for the village, even if the beginning has been horrible.

[Mänwe]

Quick comment- how was Fea able to create that tally of our posts within this thread?

[Rikae]

Nog, what do you mean by:


I was more or less paranoid there in the end of D2 and you scorning me wasn't exactly helping... :rolleyes:


don't tell me, after all that song and dance, you were reading the dead thread yourself? :rolleyes:

And Mänwe, if you click on the post count number to the right on the Mirth page, you'll get that list.

[Rikae]

My dear departed gentlemen and/or ladies, we now may count Feanor of the Peredhil as a member of our exclusive little club. Now she can see exactly who spazzed and in what ways... :p

Mänwe is not a wolf, whatever else he may be.

Shasta, you are alive from this point on and may no longer read post or post in this thread. Farewell, until we meet again...

The living:

Aganzir
Shasta
Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
Wilwa
Legate
Lommy
Nessa
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel

The dead:

Macalaure
Rikae
Mänwe
Nogrod
Blind Guardian
Fea

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Hello, dolls.

---

Written immediately following Deadline:

Mmkay, so at the time of Noggles's death, the Dead Thread post count is,

Shasta: 32
Manwe: 12
Rikae: 9
Mac: 1

At this point, the 'facts' that the village has are these:

Manwe was killed by the village and we do not know his role.

Shasta was killed by the wolves, and we can assume that he is therefore not a wolf.

Aganzir revealed as the Lover of Shasta. Since we will know very soon if she lied, this revelation was taken as FACT, because it would not help a wolf to make that bluff, it would not help a cobbler to make that bluff, and an ordo would not make that bluff.

Nog revealed as Seer and claimed to dream of Agan-Beren and Phantom-Cobbler.

Agan used her gender-bending feminine wiles to make Nog look exceptionally bad.

Therefore:

IF Agan is Not-Evil, which seems to be a foregone conclusion, THEN the village's decrying of Nog is accurate and we have killed either a cobbler or a wolf.

If Nog is a wolf, then it can be assumed that he was working under the auspices of the Pack, which currently contains either two or three members, one being Nog. If two, the third was Manwe and is already dead. If three, the others are unknown and are alive.

If Manwe was a wolf and Nog was a wolf, the two may now communicate via PM.

If Nog is a cobbler, he was working more or less alone (as in: he was unable to coordinate plans privately with others).

If Nog was working with a Pack, there would need to be a motive, such as to cast doubt on another player, or to cast good light on another player.

Because Dead Wolves may not communicate with Live Wolves, it is of no immediate benefit for a wolf to simply die.

There is a caveat to this: regardless of number of living wolves (either one left or two left), if it was judged to be of sufficient benefit to the remaining pack member/s for a Nog-wolf to die, then we can look at it thusly: the only person whose reputation is polished to a streak free shine from Nog's performance is the phantom.

However, I provide my opinion:

Nog is a cobbler, working to destabilize the village. He is not a wolf, and his behavior says nothing at all about the phantom's alignment.

--

As of 11:00pm EST toDay, this is the Dead Thread count.

Shasta: 44
Manwe: 14
Rikae: 13
Nog: 11
Mac: 2

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Now here's the funny part:

I was going to post that since Shasta's post count rose by almost exactly the same number of posts that Nog gave, we could assume that they were bickering. :cool:

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

And so we have Not-Wolf Manwe, Ordo-Fea, and Probably-Cobbler Nog, and shortly we'll be rejoined by Luthien-Shasta and Beren-Agan, plus whomever is lynched.

Make good choices, village!

(Look, ModGods, I'm making good on that high post count per day rule! :p)

[Nogrod]

don't tell me, after all that song and dance, you were reading the dead thread yourself? :rolleyes:Heh... With Shasta scorning me I referred of course to our unnecessary and stupid bickering here then after my lynch. Actually I only read this thread through yesterDay (like I said on my post #75) as it was so late back then when I died.


Welcome to Mandos Fea.

Reading your first posts seem to indicate I really have some work to do to make things right...


And a quick look at the game thread makes me wish to hit my head to the desk. If people are going to think the phantom is a trustworthy ordo because of my failings I'm really going to lock myself into dark closet for the rest of my life...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Poor dear. I'll nuzzle you, but I probably won't trust you.

Just know that I love you tons even if I think you're full of fruit with a crumbly sweet topping.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Boro certainly seems to spend a lot of time watching the Tudors, for example. I mean, I like a ripped bodice myself, but...this doesn't necessarily mean guilt, I suppose, just that the great complexity of this game brings on a certain sense of detachment. Fea, too, was generally not as vocal as you might've expected.

1) It is a tendency of Bordo to thoroughly not care. I think it speaks to his innocence that he'd rather watch Ms. Boleyn bust out of her corset than try to invent facts he doesn't have. If you're evil, inventing is fun. Manipulation is lovely. If you're an ordo and don't know anything, the best you can do is show up once in a while and say something, and then go back to Henry and his tawdry affairs.

2) Oh come now, Ang, dear, I warned everyone in advance I was going to be fairly distant. I was busy, and now I appear to be sick. :rolleyes: I thought I was doing a lovely job given the circumstances. Clearly the wolves agreed.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Okay, so here's the deal. I feel pretty icky today (I was hoping my feeling blah the past few days wouldn't legitimately turn into a sick version of me, but how much I'm coughing says no such luck) so I'm going to lay out how I think we should function so that I can run off and rest.

Nog, if you're actually the seer, your dream options are basically: me. We know Manwe isn't a wolf. We know Shasta and Agan's roles. You obviously know your own role. And you can't dream of the living. So that pretty much covers your theoretical seerly activities.

According to the Live Thread, they want to know Nog's role for certain (or as certain as it can get). I can understand that rationale. It makes the most sense right now to vote to learn Nog's alignment since we already know basically everyone else's (I'm an ordo). When Glorfy comes to visit, xe'll then have that piece of information to go back with.

As far as who should get the double vote, I lean toward giving it to one of our Lovers, just because we know their allegiance, so even if they go astray, we know it isn't because they're trying to mess with us. Shasta died too soon for us to really see him in action, but Agan has shown herself to be very rational, careful, and thoughtful. I submit that we should give her the double vote again. If that's allowed. I can't remember if that's allowed, and all I want to do is go find tea and pout that I don't feel good.

So somebody let me know if doubling Agan's vote again is okay?

[Macalaure]

So somebody let me know if doubling Agan's vote again is okay?It's perfectly fine.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Mmkay. Then I think that's what we should do.

[Nogrod]

Nog, if you're actually the seer, your dream options are basically: me. We know Manwe isn't a wolf. We know Shasta and Agan's roles. You obviously know your own role. And you can't dream of the living. So that pretty much covers your theoretical seerly activities.
I need to remind you, we also know that Mänwe is an ordinary innocent. I dreamt that last Night and told about it. That is an exact role and it's fool-proof. I understand it that you're probably not willing to trust me yet. But I'll do my best to make you look at my role again. Hopefully when enough people see that what I say of their role is true you start to reconsider.

I promise 100% accuracy on my dreams. I will not err with them like a cobbler eventually would.

And yes, you're next. :)

Oops... unless the lynched one is more interesting... Oh, I have to get the hang of this. I think I can only dream during the Nights back there so the better focus to my dreams would be the lynched as we already know you're not a wolf.

Let's see if there will arise an occasion where that would call for turning that priority the otherway around.

According to the Live Thread, they want to know Nog's role for certain (or as certain as it can get). I can understand that rationale. It makes the most sense right now to vote to learn Nog's alignment since we already know basically everyone else's (I'm an ordo). When Glorfy comes to visit, xe'll then have that piece of information to go back with.I suggested we voted for me yesterDay in here to find out my alignment - and actually voted myself. But Shasta turned his mind and retracted his vote from me into Mänwe and it was him we got (=not a wolf - while I already had the exact info of him being an ordo as well). He could have taken that info with him to the living thread but he decided not to. What a waste.

You should ask him when he comes back what on earth he was thinking... I mean if there was a chance he could be a cobbler as well while being a lover, then I'd bet my money on that. :rolleyes:

As far as who should get the double vote, I lean toward giving it to one of our Lovers, just because we know their allegiance, so even if they go astray, we know it isn't because they're trying to mess with us. Shasta died too soon for us to really see him in action, but Agan has shown herself to be very rational, careful, and thoughtful. I submit that we should give her the double vote again.I do agree with your premises... and with the conclusions as well.

I'm all for Agan getting the extra-vote.

++ Agan

for the extra-vote.


Sorry about being thus inactive toDay but there is a revolution unraveling in front of one's eyes where 80 million people turn the wheel of history... No offence to the most remarkable game we have on our hands, but that revolution is a tad more intreresting thing as it is changing this world as we know it in a big way (if all the Arab dictatorial regimes tumble down it is bigger than the collapsing of Communism 20 years ago), but I'll be back a bit later with hopefully some general ideas about the situation.


EDIT: Corrected a major fumble in logic: I think I only get to dream during the Nights and thus the lynchees are the obvios choices...

[Nogrod]

I just skimmed through the game thread.

I had some suspicions about Mith already earlier and now would probably vote for her if I was there (I'd most probably dream of her were I still alive).

I am a bit torn with Boro. I see your point Fea about his inactivity, but then again he has been quite inactive in the last few games... on first Days. He clearly has learned the lesson I understand only on a theoretical level: be quiet on first Days and you live, stand out and get killed. But there is something in him I don't feel is sincere; like he'd be purposefully picking targets.

There's not too many I tend to trust right now, but maybe Nerwen.



On another issue.

I'm quite at loss with how everyone seems to think it is self-evident that because I didn't answer Agan's "I'm Lúthien" it means I didn't know she is Beren and thus am a cobbler.

I did say earlier that she is Beren and never changed that. I just didn't pay attention to that trick by Agan, I somehow just missed it.

And had I been a cobbler, why on earth to say she is Beren risking it going wrong?

Actually, as a cobbler I should have probably quessed she was Lúthien - but I went to say comfortably that she is Beren (of course as I knew it).


And as Greenie speculated in the thread, I'm not that good an actor to pull out that frustration from a hat - which as a cobbler I wouldn't have felt in the first place.


Okay, I'm off to bed now. See you tomorrow - with new people in... sadly two too much.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

++AGANZIR

for extra votes.

Because I keep finding myself zoning out about my dead responsibilities (I have a cold settling into my lungs and I get exhausted and cranky and occasionally illogical when I'm sick). So I want to get this vote in before Day ends. Not like it matters a ton if I vote now or if I vote at DL, but at least this way I can eat my chicken noodle soup and drink my tea and have a Buffy marathon without feeling negligent.

Do good, Agan!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

somebody were to post:

I am neither here, nor reading.

?

[Mänwe]

++Aganzir

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Do what Mith said! Notice that I post! Assume it means I care! Odds and evens is a way better plan than "second to last, times two, minus x to the third power"! Odds and evens!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Hey, you! Live people! Somebody remember Nog.

You wanted to find out Nog's role. If you want us to do that toNight, but you also want us to find out who you lynch toDay, then you have to give us really solid instructions, or Noggles will slip through the cracks.

Somebody remember Nog! SOMEBODY. Pwease?

i like instructions. :(

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Another thing about our Dead-plan... The dead vote to do checks at Night, so, I assume that they'll begin with whichever person we lynch today? If so, that means they won't check Nog, right?

Is that okay, since we are guessing Cobbler?

YOU READ MY MIND!

I KNEW I ALWAYS LOVED YOU!

[Macalaure]

A rather uneventful Day came to an end in the timeless world of the dead. Anticipating this, the living decided to spice things up a little and add a whole bunch to the mix. I'm sure you will have plenty of things to talk about now. ;)

The living:

Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
wilwarin538
Legate
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel


The dead:

Rikae (mod)
Macalaure (co-mod)
Mänwe (not a wolf)
Nogrod
Blind Guardian
Feanor of the Peredhil
Aganzir (Beren)
Shastanis Althreduin (Lúthien)
Thinlómien
Nessa Telrunya


It is now Night 4. You may choose which one of you shall be revealed as wolf or not. If your role allows you to do something else at Night, too... do so.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Okay. I'm reasonably certain the village was intentionally TRYING to make for confusion in the group communication. Oh, we don't know if we want them to figure out Nog or New Person. Oh, let's do New Person. Wait, I don't know. Oh, no, let's, I say let's do New Person! Okay, but if we do New Person, maybe we should stand on our heads and jump up and down using our eyebrows for balance? Oh, we've got this fairly figured out? Let's kill many people, and then complain when we can't figure out what coded message the Deads sent us!

Okay. Done complaining.

As somebody (probably Agan m'dear) said, in the case of a tie, we need to determine the role of the first person to receive the requisite vote count. That's Lommy. Ergo,

++LOMMY

[Nogrod]

Ask Shasta why you don't have solid info about my leaning... :rolleyes:

But I think I know why he decided to go for Mänwe back then: he had voted for me and I had voted myself as well. It was quite clear I was okay with the check and of course he was not going ot believe me about Mänwe, at that point. Anyway, I'm ready to be checked anyday. But last Night would have been a lot better for it as we now got two new people here and we start falling behind easily.

So if we check Lommy with our votes to learn whether she's a wolf or not, I'll dream the exact role of Nessa then. I'll wait for few others to comment on you willing to pick exactly Lommy before PM'ing Rikae my dream just to avoid any fumbles, like us using both our methods on the same person - or if you for some reason decide to vote me to be checked, I'd probably wish to check Lommy then rather than Nessa (that's a gut reaction right now).

Okay. Back later.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Right, anytime Nogrod posts I'm just basically going to assume it's no more than "blah blah blah Shasta's stupid" and ignore it altogether - it's the only way my temper is going to survive this game. :)

In other news, hi, Fea. And Lommy. And Nessa. And Agan! Quite a lot of us have joined Mandos this time around, it seems. I should have pointed out before I went that double-lynches are going to make things that much harder for those of us in the dead thread... but I suppose it gives us more options, as well. We should definitely dream both Lommy and Nessa at some point, and since I think Nessa less likely due to her nonparticipation -

++Lommy

Do of course realize that as dead players we have one retraction per day.

[Thinlómien]

Ummm... hi I guess. What else am I supposed to say? Starting to read this thread now and I have to say it doesn't seem quite as mysterious from the insider's pow. ;)

And this is most incosiderate, I was just loaded with an armada of votes on the living thread, now you're seeking to repeat that experience. How rude. :Merisu: This has to be the only ww-game ever where you get such double-bashings. :D

[Aganzir]

I'm reasonably certain the village was intentionally TRYING to make for confusion in the group communication.
Me too. I should have stayed awake, I'm so annoyed right now. And I'm having serious doubts about the phantom. All his plans thus far seem to have been faulty - I don't care if he's plotting on his own, he seems to be misleading the village very slyly.

I say we do what Mith suggested:
Since Agan won't be back and Shasta isn't around shall we tell them to use odd number placement on the day's living list for wolf and even for non-wolf for their double vote? Seems clearest and least vulnerable solution?
So depending on what Lommy turns out to be (non-wolf, I'm afraid), we have a few names to choose the double vote from.

++Lommy
even though I'd personally rather learn Nessa's alignment. :rolleyes:

We should definitely dream both Lommy and Nessa at some point
I should have had a plan for what to do in case of a double lynch... I told the village we'd always check the previous day's lynch, but now this is extremely difficult. I don't trust the phantom one bit and am by default not going to go along with his plans. We'll have to think about it. But if we have agreed on something with the village, we can't change our course and confuse them. Will have to see what we can do about Nessa.

I haven't read the rest of the Dead Thread yet, will do so later.

Argh.

edit: xed with Lommy. Don't you have anything to say about your role? :Merisu:

[Thinlómien]

What should I say about my role? "Hi, I'm an ordo" and expect you to take it at face value? But fine, if you want me to tell you, yes, I was an ordo. I wouldn't tell you if I was a wolf or a cobbler, and if I had been a gifted I would've been incredibly annoyed after the silly (or magnificiently arranged) double lynch and wouldn't probably be able to post in a civil manner. ;) Now I just hope Nessa was a wolf because otherwise that lynch was really stupid.

I have read the dead thread and ugh I can't believe I'm really saying this... but I think Nogrod might have been the seer after all, which totally sucks. There's some stuff he says that I find unlikely he'd say if he was a cobbler (like "if I was a cobbler, would I intentionally be this mean?" or something along those lines), so despite his blunderings I'm starting to doubt... Being dead is apparently no good to me.

As for the vote of toNight, I'm going to still check the last things said by people about delivering messages. We definitely don't want to make a mistake with that. And like Agan, I'd rather check Nessa than myself anyway just because it's more waste. (Double waste, actually, first lynching me and then finding out I'm not a wolf.) I think about the only one to whom it's news that I'm not a wolf is phantom, and he is (most likely) a cobbler anyway. But obviously we do what we have to do, better waste the vote than mislead the village.

[Thinlómien]

PS. Okay won't check it right now because I just realised I have to leave within an hour and my life is still a mess (wearing pajamas at 3pm and so on ;)).

PPS. If phantom still claims he's a noble knight opposing double lynches, I'm going to murder him.

[Nogrod]

Right, anytime Nogrod posts I'm just basically going to assume it's no more than "blah blah blah Shasta's stupid" and ignore it altogether - it's the only way my temper is going to survive this game. :)Now please Shasta. I did say I understood why you changed your mind, but it doesn't alter the fact that it was your decision not to check me. So if someone asks why didn't we check me, then it's you who has to provide the answer because it was your decision.

And I'm having serious doubts about the phantom. All his plans thus far seem to have been faulty - I don't care if he's plotting on his own, he seems to be misleading the village very slyly.Which was exactly the reason why I dreamt of him on N2 (and which I explained there on D2) and found out he's a cobbler.

Will have to see what we can do about Nessa.If Lommy is voted, I'll check her. Whether you don't trust me as yet doesn't actually matter here. You say who you want to check by the voting (wolf or non-wolf?) and I'll pick the other one to dream (the exact role). You gain nothing with trying to trick me into dreaming the same person we vote for, but we would lose a lot (I'm still a firm believer you will change your mind in time when the other reasonable possibilities start to vanish and my points make more and more sense - and my dreams will show to be true every time).

I have read the dead thread and ugh I can't believe I'm really saying this... but I think Nogrod might have been the seer after all, which totally sucks. There's some stuff he says that I find unlikely he'd say if he was a cobbler (like "if I was a cobbler, would I intentionally be this mean?" or something along those lines), so despite his blunderings I'm starting to doubt...
I do recommend you others to try that same train of thought. Iwouldn't have been that angry and frustrated were I not the seer who got lynched way too early to help the village well - and have been feeling myself such a moron afterwards as it was partly my own mistakes that led into this.

And remember I said Agan is Beren (not guessed, as I would have "naturally" guessed Lúthien then).

You seem to be getting the picture of tp being the cobbler... well because he is - and I told it to you in no uncertain terms on D2.

Just consider.

[Mänwe]

Hello, Lommy, Fea.

Rikae, thanks again.

Are we forgetting BG's role re-delegation? Better to consider those who were actually active in the live thread?

I'm more concerned about clearing up the BG and Nog mess.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'm more concerned about clearing up the BG and Nog mess.

I am too, but since we have no way to tell the live 'uns that we've changed the plan, we can't go ahead and change the plan.

It seems a foregone conclusion that any voting would tell us that Nog isn't a wolf. Either he's the seer and obviously he's innocent, or he's a cobbler and will show up as not-a-wolf anyway. So we can't really do a thing about that.

My initial thought on BG was hunter or Glorf. I'm not sure that voting to learn BG's former role would do anything, since it's been reassigned? I guess telling us that would be up to the mods.

But still, since the last known contract with the village stated that we'd view the first person lynched each day, we can't go and change that now. It really must be Lommy if we want this arrangement to work at all. Otherwise we'd all end up having to abstain from extra-vote-voting to avoid giving wrong messages for the village to obsess over, and I don't like that at all.

[Rikae]

Voting BG would reveal her current wolf/non-wolf status.

[Aganzir]

I did say she is Beren from the get-go quite openly and never claimed she was Lúthien.
Because I said I was Beren, and what reason would an innocent have to lie? I so regret not being able to predict Nog's show... if I had said I was Lúthien, we wouldn't have to go through this now.
Remember I revealed before Nog. Before that, he had no clue I was Beren. If he had had, he would have let me know - instead he told me off for not seeing his "hints", but there were no hints whatsoever.

although it would have required quite a bold act and a lot of luck to hit it right with Agan on D1 (remember that to a cobbler her role would have been a shot in the dark).
It would require luck to say I was innocent? No. That was more likely than not, anyway (and if I had been a wolf, it would have served your cobbler purposes just as well because it would have led people to suspect me). You took pains to leave a coded seer hint but not a hint about my true role (or the phantom's) which was the only thing that would have given your reveal credibility.

Nog is not stupid. It's not difficult to drop a gifted hint or two here and there - BUT HE DID NOTHING THAT WOULD HAVE PROVED HE KNEW MORE THAN THE REST OF US. Because he didn't.

He is not the seer. Repeat: he is not the seer. After being lynched as a cobbler there were two things he could do: give up and be totally useless, or try to keep his show up. He chose the latter. He's acting well but I don't care how good his arguments are, he's lying blatantly.

I promise 100% accuracy on my dreams. I will not err with them like a cobbler eventually would.
Hahaha.
Shasta and I were the only problem you might have had but that won't cause you any trouble, thanks to the wolves. The hunter's and the ranger's roles will be more or less obvious anyway. When a wolf or a cobbler dies and you call them innocent, they will know you for what you are and back you up. Sorry Nogs but I see through this.

Hey I came up with something...

TO THE HUNTER AND HER VICTIM: when you die, whichever posts here first should say she was the hunter. The other will support her claim. Nog will dream of the other and tell her role. Let's see who got it right. ;) (That can't prove he's the seer because he has a 50/50 chance of hitting it right, but it might at least prove he's lying).

This is all I'm going to say about Nogrod. I think we all should just ignore him because while making long posts with lots of arguments for his innocence, he keeps distracting us. Good job, cobbler.
(As an aside, in the nearly impossible case Nog really is the seer, I expect to never hear any comments about Shasta getting himself killed as a gifted.)

I am too, but since we have no way to tell the live 'uns that we've changed the plan, we can't go ahead and change the plan.
Exactly. I know it was me who made the agreement with the village on behalf of us all, but being a known innocent I think I had the right to do it. I said we should check the first person to reach the highest number because it's unlikelier the baddies would intentionally push one of their own to be double lynched although I know it can happen by accident.

I just hope the village tells us what we should do with Nessa & tomorrow's lynch...

[Thinlómien]

But still, since the last known contract with the village stated that we'd view the first person lynched each day, we can't go and change that now. It really must be Lommy if we want this arrangement to work at all. Otherwise we'd all end up having to abstain from extra-vote-voting to avoid giving wrong messages for the village to obsess over, and I don't like that at all.In fact, you got me thinking along totally revolutionary lines... what if we did it? What if we just abstained from extra-voting? Before you butcher me with jungle knives and pole axes, stop and think about it. What do we gain by giving anyone an extra vote? We have no idea who's innocent and even if we did, we could hardly trust their judgement blindly. And with the current plan, we're not even trying to give an extra vote to an innocent, but to anyone, who might be a wolf or a cobbler just as well as an innocent. So I say it might even make sense check whoever we judge is the most fruitful one to check, refrain from all extra-vote voting (which can even be harmful) and wait for Glorfy to come here and return to the village with a host of really useful information instead of the roles of the ones we've been "forced to" check.

Anyhow, still haven't checked the living thread as I promised. Off to do it now.


edit: xed with Agan

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I know it was me who made the agreement with the village on behalf of us all, but being a known innocent I think I had the right to do it. I said we should check the first person to reach the highest number because it's unlikelier the baddies would intentionally push one of their own to be double lynched although I know it can happen by accident.

I just hope the village tells us what we should do with Nessa & tomorrow's lynch...

As you can see from before you got here, I was clearly agreeing with you and yelling silently at the folk who couldn't hear me, seeing if I could speak mind to mind to get them to see that it's a solid plan.

And yeah, I agree. I hope somebody in the village is sensible enough to notice that there are some problems here in terms of who to talk about.

[Thinlómien]

TO THE HUNTER AND HER VICTIM: when you die, whichever posts here first should say she was the hunter. The other will support her claim. Nog will dream of the other and tell her role. Let's see who got it right. ;) (That can't prove he's the seer because he has a 50/50 chance of hitting it right, but it might at least prove he's lying).Good, except that given that narration indicated your and Shasta's roles quite clearly, it would be only logical if it indicated those of the hunter and whoever was hunted. Also, the plan does not work if the hunter is lynched. So I wouldn't be too hopeful about being able to bust Nogrod. We just have to wait for another seer and let's hope one won't appear in a while.

And agreed about the village hopefully being smart and reaching conclusions instead of just coming up ideas and leaving them hanging in the air.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

In fact, you got me thinking along totally revolutionary lines... what if we did it? What if we just abstained from extra-voting? Before you butcher me with jungle knives and pole axes, stop and think about it. What do we gain by giving anyone an extra vote? We have no idea who's innocent and even if we did, we could hardly trust their judgement blindly. And with the current plan, we're not even trying to give an extra vote to an innocent, but to anyone, who might be a wolf or a cobbler just as well as an innocent. So I say it might even make sense check whoever we judge is the most fruitful one to check, refrain from all extra-vote voting (which can even be harmful) and wait for Glorfy to come here and return to the village with a host of really useful information instead of the roles of the ones we've been "forced to" check.

Anyhow, still haven't checked the living thread as I promised. Off to do it now.


edit: xed with Agan

I vehemently disagree with this. Giving extra votes is the only way we have to affect the living thread and I see no reason to ignore that.

[Aganzir]

At the moment I trust Lommy about as little as I trust the phantom.

What if we just abstained from extra-voting? --- What do we gain by giving anyone an extra vote? --- check whoever we judge is the most fruitful one to check, refrain from all extra-vote voting (which can even be harmful) and wait for Glorfy to come here
No. I thought about that too but it'd be much more harmful than accidentally giving the extra vote for a baddie. The village would be blind till Glorfy gets here, and because we can't affect the outcome of the game from here, there will be no "fruitful checks" for us. I for one am not going to let the village down.

That suggestion makes me feel three times worse about Lommy than I ever felt when she was still alive.

As you can see from before you got here, I was clearly agreeing with you and yelling silently at the folk who couldn't hear me
*snuggles Fea*

[Thinlómien]

I vehemently disagree with this. Giving extra votes is the only way we have to affect the living thread and I see no reason to ignore that.Why? Given the strategy we are about to adopt, we can do as much harm as good with that (except for delivering information, of course). Plus, the extra votes can have consequences the living seem to be unaware of. They don't know who has the extra vote, so they can't take it into account when they count the votes. We might cause them to have more double lynches, which I think is something we definitely don't want especially after yesterDay. Think outside the box.

(Gosh, now I know how the phantom must feel like all the time. And now I'm appreciating Rikae and Mac's genius even more, everything in this game seems to be a double-edged sword.)


edit: xed with Agan

[Thinlómien]

Ah I feel so much like picking a fight with Agan because she's playing with such double standards but then again I think I know better than to use my energy attacking someone I know is innocent.

Anyhow, please reread what you just posted, and think whether you make sense:
No. I thought about that too but it'd be much more harmful than accidentally giving the extra vote for a baddie. The village would be blind till Glorfy gets here, and because we can't affect the outcome of the game from here, there will be no "fruitful checks" for us. I for one am not going to let the village down.

That suggestion makes me feel three times worse about Lommy than I ever felt when she was still alive.
You had the same idea yet the fact that I came up with it makes me seem suspicious?

[Aganzir]

We might cause them to have more double lynches
Or we might prevent double lynches.

You had the same idea yet the fact that I came up with it makes me seem suspicious?
I toyed with the idea but decided against it because it would do more harm than good. You suggested it. That's the difference between us.

[Aganzir]

Rikae & Mac: I'm going to laugh so hard if you made every member of Clan Nogrod a cobbler! :D

[Thinlómien]

Or we might prevent double lynches.That's true, but given that everybody in the village except for the three cobblers (ergo a vast majority) works in order to prevent them, it's more likely we f it up for them than that we save the day. Call me a pessimist, but I think you could even prove that mathematically.

I toyed with the idea but decided against it because it would do more harm than good. You suggested it. That's the difference between us.Yes, because I'm still not convinced it'd do more harm than good. And I wanted to throw it for you to think about instead of considering all the points inside my heads. Generally you see better with more eyes and especially as this thread mostly has people I trust (you, Shasta, Fea) talking actively, I couldn't see any harm in thinking aloud. So no need to trash me for it.


edit: xed with Agan

[Aganzir]

it's more likely we f it up for them than that we save the day.
If you are only throwing an idea out there without actually suggesting it, you usually don't portray it in a nearly flawless light when there are both pros and cons to it.

Generally you see better with more eyes and especially as this thread mostly has people I trust (you, Shasta, Fea) talking actively, I couldn't see any harm in thinking aloud. So no need to trash me for it.
I pointed out a flaw in your logic but it wasn't a personal attack.

[Thinlómien]

If you are only throwing an idea out there without actually suggesting it, you usually don't portray it in a nearly flawless light when there are both pros and cons to it.I didn't portray it in a nearly flawless light and besides, the flaws should be obvious and they've been mentioned on this thread several times.

I pointed out a flaw in your logic but it wasn't a personal attack.No you didn't. It's a completely different thing to say "hey mate, there's a flaw in your logic" than "faulty logic! I smells evil!" and they provoke completely different reactions in the people whose logic you criticise. You can try experimenting with that.

And even though I know there'll be more jungle knives and pole axes for this, I really still don't see what's so utterly bad about my plan. Yes, it has vices. But so does the current plan. But it's not like I can take my plan through alone or that you need my cooperation for anything, so no need to get aggressive about it.


On a totally different issue, we're going to have rather tricky time toMorrow (assuming we stick with the original plan) because we still don't know which mode of communication the village is expecting of us, but we still have plenty time to think about that.

And then I should still vote toDay. I'd still see Nessa's role revealed as being far more useful than mine being revealed, but if you insist on sticking to the original plan, I guess there's not much I can do. Of course I've never gone Nilp before, which might be an interesting experience.

Being dead is more frustrating than I ever expected it to be and we're all stuck here until the end of the game... envy those blasted mortals. ;)

[Nogrod]

Being dead is more frustrating than I ever expected it to be and we're all stuck here until the end of the game... envy those blasted mortals. ;)Just think of the endgame when almost everyone is here. :)



If I may add my two cents... (ignore them if you wish).

Giving an extravote on the next Day (fex.) is a tricky thing * especially because of the simultaneous timing of the ending of the votes - and because we have here quite many people who are not able to hang there at the DL.

Just thinking how we could try to affect the outcome of the vote there in the best possible way would be:
a) preventing a double-lynch
b) preventing a lynch of someone who we consider innocent
c) helping to lynch someone we think is a baddie

Now if we all from the house of Finwë vote like six hours before the DL we have no way of saying what is the situation at the DL and how our extravote will affect the situation there.

Thus I suggest that me, Lommy and Agan refrain from voting anyone for the extravote and let Shasta & Fea & Mänwe do it when they know better than us being able to hang there at the DL.

That doesn't mean that we Finns should not let the Americans to know our ideas of who is good and who is bad (and you can ignore my suggestions if you think that wise) - and that you there at the DL should pay heed also to our views.

This plan isn't risk-free either. If there is a last minute madness there in the game thread it is possible even clearly intended vote from here might turn against our wishes with some last second vote down there.


But adopting that kind of scheme of course depends on how important we think following Agan's plan would be. If they are thinking that that's what we're going to do, then it may be we have to stick with it. But if enough many people think -and say it out loud - that it is a bad idea (which I think it is), then we might consider trying to really affect the outcome of the lynching for good and not only send possibly redundant info with the risk of going against the three principles I just expressed up there.

And of course there could be a way to try and find a middle-ground solution. Was it that looking from the list of players even is good and uneven is bad (or the other way around), well anyway. That would leave us half of the people to be picked as those who get the extravotes - so especially in a race where there are fex. two leading candidates those doing the voting there at the DL might be able to find one from the list we can use who has voted the person we wish to get lynched.

* When the number of people here doubles we can probably not longer co-ordinate our votes but this will turn more openly into a playing-ground where opportunism and tactics rule. But at least now we have a chance to try and co-ordinate things.

[Aganzir]

It's a completely different thing to say "hey mate, there's a flaw in your logic" than "faulty logic! I smells evil!" and they provoke completely different reactions in the people whose logic you criticise.
As I see it, suspicion doesn't equal a personal attack.

As a known innocent, I am not going to refrain from voting, nor do I think we can change our plans at this stage. Sorry to be a dictator on this issue, but anybody with the village's best interests in mind should not suggest sowing confusion among the living.

Oh and my PM box is full and i can't download anything (another cause of the internet) so NO ONE PM ME! Thank you
I think this should tell us enough about her role... :rolleyes:

[Blind Guardian]

As I see it, suspicion doesn't equal a personal attack.

As a known innocent, I am not going to refrain from voting, nor do I think we can change our plans at this stage. Sorry to be a dictator on this issue, but anybody with the village's best interests in mind should not suggest sowing confusion among the living.


I think this should tell us enough about her role... :rolleyes:

No, it's from past WW games. There's only three from this game and two only ask if I'm around! ;) Besides it's not my role anymore. :(

[Nogrod]

Okay. I'll do one more of these (this seems to be "the thread of repetiton") as I see Agan making a totally dismissive case. And I hope at least you Agan read this. You others might do well to do it as well though.

Because I said I was Beren, and what reason would an innocent have to lie? I so regret not being able to predict Nog's show... if I had said I was Lúthien, we wouldn't have to go through this now.
Remember I revealed before Nog. Before that, he had no clue I was Beren. If he had had, he would have let me know - instead he told me off for not seeing his "hints", but there were no hints whatsoever.I've had hard times to go back to the thread to read it closely for D2 from pure embarrassment. And I actually mean it. But I did go there to check yesterday about the order of the revelations as I wasn't myself sure how it went. And I found you saying you two were lovers and then me stating you were Beren.

I went there back again now (oh, the pain...) and yes I agree, you did have that line after the love poem (which I actually remember you did) where you congrated the wolves for killing Lúthien. I should have noticed that yesterday. And the odd part is that I have no way of explaining why I didn't, even if I was looking for which one of us first said and what (maybe it was because getting to that post I recognized the poem and just thought: "okay, here's the post she reveals she was Shasta's lover"?).

Then again, I only realised a moment ago - looking back to this thread that Mac actually ended the "narration" for this Night to begin, with: It is now Night 4. You may choose which one of you shall be revealed as wolf or not. If your role allows you to do something else at Night, too... do so.Did you notice that? Well, I didn't, except an hour ago. I know this is no proof to any direction about me being the seer or that people may lose important lines from the bottom of a message when they read fast. But I hope you think of the possibility of those two things is not totally improbable.


It would require luck to say I was innocent? No. That was more likely than not, anyway (and if I had been a wolf, it would have served your cobbler purposes just as well because it would have led people to suspect me). You took pains to leave a coded seer hint but not a hint about my true role (or the phantom's) which was the only thing that would have given your reveal credibility.I think I already said that getting a lover as the first dream was the worst possible one to have. I did think of leaving something in a code of some sorts about you being Beren and not just an innocent but it felt pretty hard - and dangerous. Actually, knowing that if you got killed then someone else would die as well, I was strongly considering leaving no hints at all on D1.

But thinking of the totally freaked out way this game would work I decided still to leave something (hence my putting you Agan as the only one in the inocent tally) to show on D6 or something. Later on D1 I felt the need to add that coded "I'm the seer" message followed with the sentence stating that I'm positive about your innocence. And I was afraid even that was too much to say.

Nog is not stupid. It's not difficult to drop a gifted hint or two here and there - BUT HE DID NOTHING THAT WOULD HAVE PROVED HE KNEW MORE THAN THE REST OF US. Because he didn't.It is not difficult, in away, if you can be proven right afterwards or if you have any other dream than lovers who both are goodies. One just doesn't want to make that.

If you go back to your post where you revealed you were Shasta's lover, you can see I change my play on you immediately. Before that when you suspected me I said something along the lines "are you trying to make me suspect you, no deal done" - trying to let you understand I'm not going to go for you for a reason. But after that I started sying I was wondering whether I had read you wrong etc. detaching myself from any real knowledge on your role to save my seership.

But what happened: led by your example I started gathering a tremendous amount of suspicion (and at that time I hadn't been playing that stupidly or abrasively) and as the clock ticked on in to the wee hours I started realising you guys were going to lynch me and that the village was losing their seer - and with the aid of tiredness, panic and a few glasses of wine too much the disaster was wowen.

It's clear I was not in any conscious state of mind on the last hour. If you wish to check, see the first posts I made here. Okay, please don't (I haven't have the nerve to reread them ever since), but if you have to... Well, if it takes that to believe me and get our act straight here, then go and read them.

He is not the seer. Repeat: he is not the seer.Well, I am. Sadly so. Repeat: Well, I am. Sadly so.

After being lynched as a cobbler there were two things he could do: give up and be totally useless, or try to keep his show up. He chose the latter. He's acting well but I don't care how good his arguments are, he's lying blatantly.
After being lynched as the seer I had two options: to give up or try to fight for it. I have kind of taken the middle route here s to begin with. If I think there's even a minute chance someone would listen to me, I'd do my best in here but if I will be totally ignored with a majority decision, then who cares?

We're still hanging around that delicate balance. But as long as people say "don't listen to him" I find it hard to really delve into the living-thread and start working for hours to find the culprits. From what I know of myself though, I'll probably stand up and start really fighting for the village in the end, whatever you say of it.

But getting into that heavily involved mood isn't exactly helped with comments which say that: "I don't care how good his arguments are, he's lying blatantly!" :rolleyes:

When a wolf or a cobbler dies and you call them innocent, they will know you for what you are and back you up. Sorry Nogs but I see through this.Nope. I'll call a cobbler a cobbler and a wolf a wolf - and they will heavily disagree. The ordinary innocents will know what I'm doing though.

There's no way to say which roles are coming here, so there's no way in telling how effective that will be.

TO THE HUNTER AND HER VICTIM: when you die, whichever posts here first should say she was the hunter. The other will support her claim. Nog will dream of the other and tell her role. Let's see who got it right. ;) (That can't prove he's the seer because he has a 50/50 chance of hitting it right, but it might at least prove he's lying).I'd be ready to take a challenge of that kind any time and can promise you 100% right answer. But with the illogical hunter (kills whoever is her/his target) it's hard to see the evidence of that.

This is all I'm going to say about Nogrod. I think we all should just ignore him because while making long posts with lots of arguments for his innocence, he keeps distracting us.You disregard my views on your own peril, I must say. Don't tell me afterwards I didn't say that.

But I'll promise to come up with this issue only when I think I need to do that...

[Thinlómien]

Gah. If no one else is going to give any credit to an alternative plan than the probable cobbler and believed by nodoby anyway Mr Nogrod, I might as well leave it be at least for today. It's getting late.

++Thinlómien

First ever time nilping myself! Yay!

But like I said, I doubt anyone except the phantom will really be surprised to find out I'm innocent.


edit: xed with Nog

[Thinlómien]

Oh and just saying don't complain to me if Nessa turns out to be a wolf (which I think rather likely) or if we cause a double lynch.

[Nogrod]

As a known innocent, I am not going to refrain from voting, nor do I think we can change our plans at this stage. Sorry to be a dictator on this issue, but anybody with the village's best interests in mind should not suggest sowing confusion among the living.You should hold those two issues separate though.

The fact that we Finns will probably not be online at the DL toMorrow and how to react to that is a different thing from whether we should stick to the plan talked in the game-thread yeasterDay.

If you just vote for someone you trust now (well 24 hours fom now), you have no idea whether that vote decides a doublelynch or the death of your other "most innocent" player!


How about we decided that no one else votes for the extravote but Shasta whom we know is a goodie and (hopefully) can be around at the DL - trying to fit his vote with both the "system of evens and unevens" and doing his best to do what we - well you as you don't trust me - want him to.

I can tell you Mänwe is an ordinary innocent as well but as you can't be secure about it, then let's say Shasta only votes.

If you Agan will be ther at the DL, then go on and vote as I think no one will have anything against it. But if you wish to vote like six hours earlier - well that's bad thinking while we have a chance to co-operate.

There's one additional positive thing in that kind of a deal as well: if Fea goes to vote for someone else creating confusion and possibly with the coin-toss a result we didn't want to, we know she's cobbler (I mean looking at the fitting role-pickings; when tp is a cobbler it wouldn't be far fetched to think Fea is one as well :rolleyes:) - which should guarantee us an extravote given only by a known innocent as Fea wouldn't try that if she knew we would distrust her after that.

But that would mean that everyone here would need to tell Shasta what they feel about people to help Shasta make a good choice.

Also, let's not be too hasty with any dictatorial rulings that would have to be settled roght now as we have almost 29 hours time to giving that extra-vote.

Maybe the people in the game thread decide it's not a good idea and we should acknowlede that then.

So we should check the game thread toMorrow and decide on the proceedings then?

[Nogrod]

Oh and just saying don't complain to me if Nessa turns out to be a wolf (which I think rather likely)I'm checking her toNight.

You may not trust me yet. But I hope you'll do, hopefully sooner than later.

So I'm trusting now our decision for toNight is Lommy?

Okay, adding my vote to it.

++ Lommy


So I'm dreaming of Nessa toNight.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

There's one additional positive thing in that kind of a deal as well: if Fea goes to vote for someone else creating confusion and possibly with the coin-toss a result we didn't want to, we know she's cobbler (I mean looking at the fitting role-pickings; when tp is a cobbler it wouldn't be far fetched to think Fea is one as well :rolleyes:) - which should guarantee us an extravote given only by a known innocent as Fea wouldn't try that if she knew we would distrust her after that.

Ah, because I've shown so many signs of being a cobbler, up to and including consistent behavior, insistence that nobody false reveal, insistence that we don't mess with the village's understanding of our communication system, rational votes, expressions of concern over the rationality of certain plans... Clearly my role in this game is to sow confusion, to revel in chaos, to otherwise be mean, naughty, and nasty.

As someone who has supported Not Being Evil from the very beginning of this game, I daresay you have nothing to fear of me swooping in to change my vote at the last minute.

Also, Seer, if you're that concerned I'm secretly a cobbler, and just doing a really awesome job of convincing everybody that I'm squeaky clean, why not just dream of me? Why not just prove to yourself, if nobody else, that I'm sneaky?

Ah, because you have the excuse of dreaming of Nessa. My bad.

But no, I shall not bait you. Dream away of Nessa, as that was the general plan. Switching to me now would be foolish when instead you can just try to sow distrust where there is none...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I think I've mentioned that I have a nasty cold? I was going to try to ignore it, but due to how insistent it got, I stopped being able to ignore it due to being curled up in a ball on the bathroom floor with a wad of tissues, trying to stop sneezing long enough to breathe.

So I took Nyquil. Which is about to combine with my other medications and knock me out. Not in a dangerous way, just in a way that means I will absolutely not be awake until tomorrow.

So here's hoping nobody needs me until I wake up again.

Have fun, kids. Celebrate being able to breathe through your noses. You tend to forget how nice that is...

[Nogrod]

Ah, because I've shown so many signs of being a cobbler, up to and including consistent behavior, insistence that nobody false reveal, insistence that we don't mess with the village's understanding of our communication system, rational votes, expressions of concern over the rationality of certain plans... Clearly my role in this game is to sow confusion, to revel in chaos, to otherwise be mean, naughty, and nasty.

As someone who has supported Not Being Evil from the very beginning of this game, I daresay you have nothing to fear of me swooping in to change my vote at the last minute.Well, it was mainly the idea that as the few roles I know now seem to be so like too fitting - and as I know tp is a cobbler... :rolleyes:

But it was not that much serious. Maybe the way you went being best friends with Agan is looking a bit opportunistic (the easy trust in a game is looking weird; but as such it would have not been much), but anyway. With saying exactly that, I was kind of hoping to discourage you from doing that last second change. I mean whatever your role, nice to be certain now that you won't do it. Had I not raised that discussion up - and if you were a cobbler - you could have played tricks there. Now you probably don't.

Playing it safe.

As I said, I don't know if we won anything here, but it's possible we did. And were you the cobbler we might have lost something.


Also, Seer, if you're that concerned I'm secretly a cobbler, and just doing a really awesome job of convincing everybody that I'm squeaky clean, why not just dream of me? Why not just prove to yourself, if nobody else, that I'm sneaky?

Ah, because you have the excuse of dreaming of Nessa. My bad.I was actually wavering between Nessa, you and Lommy. I mean I get the exact roles and not only this not-a-wolf / wolf stuff. And I was curious.

But in the end I decided that I had not that much on thinking either of you as a cobbler and the chance of getting a wolf was heavier on the scales - so I picked Nessa.

And actually got the answer just a moment ago.



Nessa is an ordinary innocent.



PS. And all that reaction from Fea when I only said what she quoted there in #136? That wasn't anything too serious, just plain stating what we would know if... And said by a person everyone "knows" is not the seer but a cobbler?

If you were so sure that I'm the cobbler - and trusted that everyone esle trusted that as well, why bother? :smokin:

[Macalaure]

Did you notice that? Well, I didn't, except an hour ago. I know this is no proof to any direction about me being the seer or that people may lose important lines from the bottom of a message when they read fast. But I hope you think of the possibility of those two things is not totally improbable.Just for clarification, without the intent to say anything about Nogrod's role: That statement was generic. There are no clues in the narrations except the obvious ones.

[Macalaure]

The wolves consulted with Glorfindel and found the current occupancy of the Halls of Mandos entirely satisfactory.

Also, be informed that Lommy is... not a wolf.


The living:

Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
wilwarin538
Legate
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel


The dead:

Rikae (mod)
Macalaure (co-mod)
Mänwe (not a wolf)
Nogrod
Blind Guardian
Feanor of the Peredhil
Aganzir (Beren)
Shastanis Althreduin (Lúthien)
Thinlómien (not a wolf)
Nessa Telrunya


It is now Day 4. Whom will the dead endow with twice the power to choose their next fellow?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

HAH. Take that, wolves, and way to go Glorfindel! :D

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Also this is me being contrary, but I don't like the living going in the assumption that we're going to do everything they tell us to like good little drones. :rolleyes:

[Aganzir]

Also this is me being contrary, but I don't like the living going in the assumption that we're going to do everything they tell us to like good little drones. :rolleyes:
I said we can't promise to do everything if we don't have a way to comment on it. Thus far I have no problem with complying to their wishes, though.

I like Mith a lot, Boro a lot more than when I voted for him (meaning I wouldn't try to lynch him now even if I still don't entirely trust him), and I vehemently dislike phantom. EVIL. MISLEADING. FALSE.

Class starts, more from me later.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Not a wolf is odds...

Glirdan
elronds_daughter
Loslote
Legate
the phantom
Mithalwen

They are odds. I'm not willing to give an extra vote to Glirdan or phantom.

Of this bunch, I'd prefer to give it to Mith.

But I basically feel mentally backwards from how I have felt, so I don't trust any of my own judgment right now. Just woke up from 14 hours of sleep. Still feel completely awful and mentally hazy.

So unless I suddenly feel ten times better later on today, I'm going to abstain from voting. Either that or go with whoever Agan says to go with.

Because yeah, Noggles, I trust her more than anybody else in this game, because she thinks the way I think when I'm not ill, and I know for a fact she's not evil in this game.

So... so yeah. If she gives me orders today? I'll most likely follow them instead of thinking for myself.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Strike what I said. Evens. Not-wolf means evens.

I'm going back to sleep.

[Rikae]

Naturally, the Day has been extended here, as on the living thread.

[Aganzir]

A Little Green
Nerwen
wilwarin538
satansaloser2005
Boromir88
Anguirel

I believe these are our options for the double vote. I think everyone is free to choose whom they wish as long as one of them gets it. Personally I am not going to vote for Greenie (suspicious of her), Nerwen (just to be on the safe side) or Angu (because I have no idea what he's up to even though I liked his comments on Lottie, Glirdy & ed).

I personally think a double toDay could be a very bad idea seeing as we're loosing Agan on top of whoever we lynch. --- I'm leaning more towards Nessa
I think this sounds very innocent. A baddie could have just gone along with phantom's plan, saying 'Yeah that's probably worth trying!' Even more so because his primary choice would have been Nessa whose role we don't know (instead of non-wolf Lommy).

Let's say he reveals both himself and his target.
And dies and brings back as little information as possible.

I completely forgot the fact that Agan hadn't voted either of the top two candidates, plus Shasta didn't vote, and those two were pretty well guaranteed to have the power
Bollocks. I don't believe that for a second.

As far as Nessa... We ought to debate tomorrow (or late today after the vote is decided) if we'd rather have our latest lynch checked or her, but that's not an issue for now.
It isn't? If you debate it tomorrow, then whom do we check tonight?

It occurs to me that the phantom has previously employed a cobbler impersonation tactic as a gifted, though (wilwa's Fairytale game, remember Fea?). That time he was kind of more obvious, though - now he's just suggesting flawed plans while saying he isn't actually suggesting them (instead he's making people waste their time pointing out the flaws in them).

If I know Agan, she's going to be a drill sergeant
Hahaha! :D

No. It's best if we tell the dead exactly what we want now. Leaving to decide this later in the day will only clutter up the lynch, and also make it easier for any baddies to mess up and put an end to Agan's plan.
It was this (and Boro's previous post) that made me feel better about him. Of course things might not be as simple as they seem, but a baddie gains little by saying this.

There are lots of ways of doing it someone with numbers in name, one word name.... but for today odds and evens is just fine. Of course we don't have to vary the system at all but if pointing out we could stymies a wolftrick
I like this.

I am inclined now to suspect Elron more than Glirdan and Loslote more than Sauron.
:D

Speaking of ed - her two previous games she's been very undecided, not really having opinions on people. This got her suspected last time, at least by me. She seems to have changed her style a great deal... I wonder if it's just because she has more experience now, or if she has fellows helping her out. Remember also the self-conscious first post after the first wolf-kill.

Okay the Downs went down just when I was going to post this. Comments on what's been going on here, then.

No, it's from past WW games. There's only three from this game and two only ask if I'm around! Besides it's not my role anymore.
I suppose there's no chance you would've been, say... the seer?
(Naturally assuming the mods think it's okay she says it.)

I still don't believe Nog. He looks better here than he did in the living thread (which doesn't mean much, though), but it's the living thread that really matters. However I'm not going to keep arguing with him unless I see a reason to because that serves no purpose.

If you just vote for someone you trust now (well 24 hours fom now), you have no idea whether that vote decides a doublelynch or the death of your other "most innocent" player!
We wouldn't know that even if there was no plan. If we're afraid of influencing the lynch, no one should vote at all.

How about we decided that no one else votes for the extravote but Shasta whom we know is a goodie and (hopefully) can be around at the DL - trying to fit his vote with both the "system of evens and unevens" and doing his best to do what we - well you as you don't trust me - want him to.
Problems. There's no way we can be sure someone is not a cobbler, and if we agree only one person votes, the cobblers can easily mess it up. Plus what happens if Shasta isn't around at the deadline like happened on my last day with the living?

Have fun, kids. Celebrate being able to breathe through your noses. You tend to forget how nice that is...
Aww get well soon. *nuzzles*

Now, let me think about the double voting thing.
The wolves know Lommy was not one, therefore they know either Green, Nerwen, wilwa, sally, Boro or Angu is getting the extra vote. They are probably looking at whom most people (especially I) suspected or found innocent, and it's possible they're weighing their vote with that in mind. Therefore it might be good to give it to someone unexpected... But while I don't think us Finns (well, Nog excluded ;)) should refrain from voting just because we're most likely not around at the deadline, it might usually be a good idea to spread the votes and leave it up to our American friends to decide who gets it. On the other hand, I'm uncomfortable with this because we have no idea how many cobblers we have here.

[Aganzir]

I am not a bally suitcase. I am not meant to have a handle.
Hahaha love this! :D

Hmm. Actually the fact that Boro suggested the living vote on whom we check doesn't tell us anything about him. If Nessa is a wolf, there's a chance we check somebody else - or if we don't, it makes him look better. If she's innocent, there's a chance we don't check a lynched wolf (yet). But then, he wasn't actively trying to stir up discussion, he just said they should do it... Grr I hate his tricksiness!

Who do you think was attacked last night? I'm tempted to say Mith because no one really suspects her and she came up with some very good ideas...

[Rikae]

Hm, all these sending-messages-to-the-living plots seem to have killed my dead thread. Perhaps I should throw a wrench in the works, and stop revealing who gets the double votes at all?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

That's... mean... :(

[Blind Guardian]

I still don't see how the Dead are going to be able to tell the Living their answers. The Living can't look in the Dead thread and the Dead can't post in the Game thread. PMing is only aloud through certain roles...

Anyone want to tell me what I am missing?

[Rikae]

That's... mean... :(
But you have nothing to talk about anymore! Kind of defeats the purpose of having a thread at all.

[Thinlómien]

But you have nothing to talk about anymore! Kind of defeats the purpose of having a thread at all.We do talk! We just talk about how to convey our messages. ;)

But do as you will, Rikae - you're the moddess, it's your decision and no one's going to hold a grudge whatever you decide. :)


PS. I'm here. I have yet to read the live thread.

[Thinlómien]

Ha, we seem to be popular. :D

[Thinlómien]

PS. Dear moddess, almost a half of our dead population are Finnish. So it might be quiet from 2am to 9pm our time when we are sleeping/at school/working/seeing friends. We Finns are rather nocturnal, so we get active around this time. Agan is seeing her granny (I think?), Nog has choir practice on Wednesday evenings and I just returned from the cinema (saw King's Speech and I can definitely recommend that btw). Plus, out of the dead, BG didn't post at all when alive and Nessa hasn't posted anything after her death at all. So I'm not sure it'd be much noisier right now if we had more variable topics to talk about... This is all not to convince you to change the game rules if you think it would improve the dynamics, but merely make you less frustrated about our sorry silence.

PPS. Ha! I should start writing speeches. ;)

[Rikae]

Well, ok, I'll let you dead folk off the hook for now. ;)

Actually, I'm just worried that flaws in the game mechanics were spoiling people's fun, although, of course, they might be simultaneously helping (some of) you win. I hope you're right and things get livelier... oh well...

(Incidentally, the "people" and "you" above refer to all players living and dead. Sorry, people, no clues here!)

[Blind Guardian]

Phantom, Please shut up!

*joking* ;)

[Rikae]

To answer Aganzir, it's ok for BG to say anything she likes about her past or present role, true or false.

EDIT: Of course the usual rules about quoting pm's also apply.

[Thinlómien]

Gah, too tired to think about this anymore. I'm going to sleep. Sorry for the crappy participation toDay.

++Greenie

Seems like her solid, independent-minded self and can't really disagree with her suspicion of Sally. Don't trust Sallywolf or Bobbler a bit, and Nerwen and Angu not much more. Wilwa would've been my other option, but I think I can read Greenie better so I trsut my trust of her better, so to speak.

[Aganzir]

Hm, all these sending-messages-to-the-living plots seem to have killed my dead thread.
Aww but that's evil for two reasons: it was my plan, and at least I have also been talking about something else! :p

I still don't see how the Dead are going to be able to tell the Living their answers.
We vote to give an extra vote to one of the villagers. Because Lommy wasn't a wolf, our options today are Greenie, Nerwen, wilwa, sally, Boro, and Angu. Pick the one you find the most innocent-looking, or even better, the one I or Shasta tells you to!

The type of players they are, they will both be cracking their whips in the dead thread to help us.
That guy is seriously trying to butter me up with comments like this... I wonder if I should be worried!

Anyway, I have to go now, so–

++Elra

for looking an awful lot like a wolf-cub.
(Italics replaced with underlining)
Nerwen's vote makes me very uneasy. It looks like she's offing a fellow. I know it serves little purpose, but I'm going to have a look at her.

There are a couple of groups I'm interested in.

Angu vs. Lottie, sally & ed
Boro vs. phantom
sally vs. Angu, Boro, Lottie

I wouldn't put it past Angu to blatantly bus his fellows (Lommy has told me so many times about getting Fenrised by him) but obviously he can't be fellows with all the three. The same with sally...
At least one of Boro and phantom is evil.

VOTES (we should definitely keep track on them and adjust the extra vote based on who seems to be getting lynched, if possible)
Angu - Lottie
Green - sally
Nerwen - ed

NIGHT CHECK VOTES
Boro - Nessa
sally - today's lynch
phantom - Nessa?

People who are around later - I'd like either Lottie, ed or phantom to die.

[Aganzir]

DAY 1
Jokes with Lottie, saying she clearly confessed.
Quotes phantom who discussed Lommy & cobblers and says cobbler talk tends to be popular among wolves, but cobblers are more likely to give themselves away in a village like this.
Criticises Nessa for voting someone who would be a "useful ghost" and doesn't like the reasoning at all.
Says Lottie had a good point about Mänwe but seemed to be assuming both Shasta and Nog were innocent which is worrying.
Criticises Boro for not explaining his vote (for Legate).
Breaks the tie between Mänwe and Nog by voting for Mänwe (because he looked worse, as she explains on day 2).

DAY 2
Criticises Glirdan who called the Mänwe lynch an easy bandwagon when his role wasn't known yet.
Speculates on whether the wolves thought Shasta was Lúthien.
Agrees with Lommy Boro looks like a cobbler dropping a hint (to a wolfish Lommy). Doesn't vote.

DAY 3
Can't think of a way to use the double vote as a code, especially as there's at least one cobbler here.
Disagrees with Legate on the post-reveal Nog voters (Fea, wilwa, phantom, Lottie, Ang, Mith) looking bad - a seer impersonator is more dangerous in the living than the dead thread.
Says Nog probably wasn't the seer, and Nessa's apologetic vote for him looks worst. Wilwa and Lottie don't look bad just for defending Nog.
Votes for Nessa.

DAY 4
Surprised Nessa got so many votes, but it's hard to make a case for wolvishness right now.
Questions Lottie's & ed's cobbler hunting.
Thinks Mith looks the most innocent, and is getting worried about Boro.
Says (in response to Angu) that Lottie is right about Glirdan making an obvious wolf but her argument isn't better than "he isn't crying wolf", and while sally is often like this, she's posted so little she can't be called her usual self either. This is a pretty wishy-washy statement.
Doubts Lottie would openly defend Glirdan and sally if they were her packmates.
Asks why Lottie is so sure about Angu being a cobbler without giving any real reasons.
Comments on Green's sally analysis, saying she doesn't trust sally but is getting a funny vibe from Green as well (even though most of her points are valid).
Asks who we're supposed to check tonight and votes for ed with
Anyway, I have to go now, so–

++Elra

for looking an awful lot like a wolf-cub.

I can't say I'm overly fond of Nerwen at the moment, she seems sneakily opportunistic. She said hardly anything about ed before voting for her... And the way she speaks of sally and carefully defends her while washing her hands looks bad.

If I had to guess now, I'd say the wolves are Nerwen, ed and sally/Green while the cobblers are three out of Nog, phantom, Lottie and Lommy.

Will vote soon.

[Aganzir]

INNOCENT (Mostly gut thing, all of them.)
Mith
Glirdan
Legate
wilwa

GUILTY
phantom (If he isn't evil, nobody is.)
ed (Her guilt should pretty much exonerate Legate and Green since they were the first to bring up points against her, albeit minor.)
Nerwen (Not liking what I see even though much of it depends on others' guilt.)
Lottie (Looks opportunistic and evil... although I'm not as sure as some others seem to be.)
sally (The way Nerwen talked about her is fishy and she's maybe slightly off... But I'm not sure. I thought her innocent pretty much up until now.)

ENIGMATIC
Boro (Leaning innocent but not sure.)
Angu (Leaning innocent but even less sure - so much depends on others.)
Green (Looks innocent but I can't shake off the feeling of there being something wrong with her.)

[Nogrod]

I made it in here!

It took me 20 minutes to get my table-computer to work and it is slow as **** (upgrading all virus-programs as it has not been used in two weeks or so) - and it's now 2.30AM and I have an early mornig call.

So just in brief then - and I haven't read the game thread, so I have no idea what's pouring in there - except the few comments here.


First of all, as I said a long time ago, I do recommend we let only those people to vote whom we really know are not cobblers (or wolves - although I know there are no wolves here yet). There will not be too many possibilities for that in Days to come so let's keep our act controlled for God's sake at least now when we can.

So Shasta, and if Agan is able to hang around at the DL, then you should vote - knowing the voting-situation down there.

An innocent vote given four hours before the DL can be lead to disaster (well an informed one at the DL could do that as well, but still I'd feel better if we even tried).

I see Lommy voted though - so how to control the damage done? We'd need to give those known goodies around at the DL the most flexible choises - which we now can't give them because of that vote.

Blah. I told you. :(


Okay thinking about that for a moment... Maybe we could like give one vote to all those in the list of "signaling the right thing to the living" -group so that Shasta (and Agan?) could then pick from them, kind of nullifying Lommy's vote that now prevents the known goodies to decide freely?


Another issue though.

I do understand you wish to check the lynched one (as you din't trust me yet) and am beginning to settle for this cobbler-revealing bussiness that's left to me then. So I can dream of either Fea or Lommy the coming Night (unless there is a doulble lynch again when I have more choice). So any ideas to help me decide? I could see a cobbler in both of them and I could see them both as ordinary innocents. It's a tough choice.

A moment...

[Aganzir]

++Nerwen

Not because I trust her but because I want to kill ed. She's definitely different this time, and not in an innocent way.

VOTES (LIVING)
Angu - Lottie
Green - sally
Nerwen - ed

VOTES (DEAD)
Lommy - Greenie --> sally
Agan - Nerwen --> ed

Please keep count of these, that leaves less room for the cobbler(s) to mess things up by telling the village Lommy was a wolf or causing a double lynch.

EXTRA VOTE OPTIONS (If you vote for anyone else, I will consider you a cobbler or worse and you can be sure the village will know of it as soon as Glorfindel lands here.)
A Little Green
Nerwen
wilwarin538
satansaloser2005
Boromir88
Anguirel

(NIGHT CHECK VOTES
Boro - Nessa
sally - today's lynch
phantom - Nessa?)

Oh and be quiet already Nog, you have no power here. ;) Yes it's better if there's someone around at the deadline but you're being bleak and pessimistic on purpose and it annoys me a great deal.

Bedtime! (Better late than never.)

[Aganzir]

Dead- ignore this ridiculous business with us voting on who to check tonight. What you decide to do should be dependent upon the identity of Lommy. If you find her guilty, check our future lynches. If you find her innocent, check Nessa.
This is a reasonable point by itself but I wonder if phantom knew Lommy would turn out innocent and is now trying to make us waste a night on checking non-wolf Nessa...

edit: Forgot to mention my participation will be limited tomorrow because I'll be away for the whole day and have friends coming over in the evening. Sorry.

[Nogrod]

Loading a page with my PC takes like 5 minutes each so I'm not going to even try to check the situation anywhere. :confused: :(

Like playing this game blind...


Anyway. Rikae said in this thread I have on my screen the last 40 posts that the DL has been postponed. But where? I quess it is 24 hours aka the DL will be in like 3 hours?

So it calls for action then. Had none voted for the extravote and had I had a working connection here I would have campaigned loudly on no one else giving a vote as to maximise the choice of the known-goodies at the DL. But now I think we others need to help them/him out to have as many choices as possible.

Also I didn't like the idea we'd have to necessarily stick to the list of evens or unevens, but now Lommy's vote has more or less forced me to pick one from the same list as otherwise my vote would be soo random as I will have no clue what's the situation going to be there in the living-thread around the DL.

So let's everyone else pick a person not yet voted from the list and let Shasta (and Agan?) decide to whom the vote finally goes? Thus we know the vote was given by a goodie.

The candidates then:

A Little Green - vote by Lommy
Nerwen
wilwarin538
satansaloser2005
Boromir88
Anguirel

I know I'm not making my believability any better with this, but of those I'd trust Nerwen the most. It's a combination of whom I'd trust of those to be innocent and whom I'd trust of those to make a reasoned and balanced decision with the vote.

Like you Agan said, it's probably a question of other's guilt as well and we have been disagreing about them all the game. And I don't know what Nerwen has said after the 'Downs went down (you refer to something she said about Sally?).

But anyway. I'll vote for an extra-vote for her as we need the maximum choice. You others should supply the votes for the rest, one each.

++ Nerwen



The candidates then, take two:

A Little Green - vote by Lommy
Nerwen - vote by Nogrod
wilwarin538
satansaloser2005
Boromir88
Anguirel


Heh, I need to add that from my POV Mänwe and Nessa could vote as well as they are ordinary innocents, but as they seem to not be following this game too keenly then it probably is good they don't do the final decision uninformed...

So good night from me!


EDIT: OOPS, X'd with Agan x2 - going to retract in a moment...

[Aganzir]

And spread the votes so it's easier for the possible cobblers/wolves to jump on them? :rolleyes:

[Aganzir]

Also, Nogrod's plan is complete rubbish and if anybody tries to follow it I'm going to show up behind your bedroom window with a pitchfork.

[Nogrod]

Oh and be quiet already Nog, you have no power here.
It seems I don't. But you will be sorry later for not listening to what I say.

Okay, so as to give Shasta more room...

-- Nerwen
++ Anguirel

I'm less confident with Ang, but looking at the choices he's my best bet now.


The candidates then, take three:

A Little Green - vote by Lommy
Nerwen - vote by Agan
wilwarin538
satansaloser2005
Boromir88
Anguirel - vote by Nogrod

And spread the votes so it's easier for the possible cobblers/wolves to jump on them?No and yes. If there is a cobbler here (or cobblers), we'd know it then if she acted on it. If we would have left it to Shasta (and you) we would have known it was innocently placed extravote. Now Lommy spoiled that and we need to give Shasta more room to manouvre. But jumping on the possibility the cobbler only reveals herself. (And I can check it of course but... blah-blah)

If we all followed your advice and gave our vote to Nerwen en masse whom you just a minute ago suspected almost the most, just because she wishes to kill ed you seem to think strongly is a wolf, then Shasta could not prevent the lynching of person X who looks the most innocent to him / or give an extra-vote to someone to prevent a double-lynch, if ed is not there in the lead and when whether Nerwen has two votes or not is redundant.

So I'd not call my plan rubbish but I'd call your enthusiasm a bit short-sighted. And actually not only concerning this vote toDay... :rolleyes:

Now to sleep.

[Rikae]

Deadline was extended 24 hours, so yes, same time as always.

[Aganzir]

Okay I have to be up in five and a half hours so I can't just stay here and wait for Nog to post...

I do think people shouldn't just bandwagon for one player now that the outcome of the lynch is still far from clear, but the way Nog put it is just wrong: he seems to be trying to manipulate people and asking for baddies to wreak havoc. The longer you can hold your vote the better, but in the end I think the double lynch of two suspicious players (which Nog seems to be so afraid of) is better than the lynch of one innocent.

And when doing the tally, I think it's better to do it in a way that also shows who the extra vote is going to.

VOTES (LIVING)
Angu - Lottie
Green - sally
Nerwen - ed

VOTES (DEAD)
Lommy - Greenie --> sally
Agan - Nerwen --> ed
Nog - Angu --> Lottie

[Aganzir]

It seems I don't. But you will be sorry later for not listening to what I say.
Haha you sound like the two fundies that came to talk to me the other night. :p They were creepy.

If there is a cobbler here (or cobblers), we'd know it then if she acted on it.
And it might be too late then.

So I'd not call my plan rubbish but I'd call your enthusiasm a bit short-sighted. And actually not only concerning this vote toDay...
Both ways have their defects but this is the one I prefer.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Will follow Agan's lead, for the reasons she stated.

++NERWEN

VOTES (LIVING)
Angu - Lottie
Green - sally
Nerwen - ed

VOTES (DEAD)
Lommy - Greenie --> sally
Agan - Nerwen --> ed
Nog - Angu --> Lottie
Fea - Nerwen --> ed

Also planning to stick around until DL to make sure all goes according to plan.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

THE VOTES:

Ang ++ Lottie
Green ++ Sally
Nerwen ++ Daughter
Sally ++ Lottie (2)
Lottie ++ Wilwa

LEFT TO VOTE:
Glirdan
Daughter
Wilwa
Legate
Phantom
Boro
Mith

I don't want to allow for a double lynch, so I'm going to change my vote since I haven't trusted Lottie in quite some time.

--NERWEN

++ANGU

Which puts us at:

VOTES (LIVING)
Angu - Lottie
Green - sally
Nerwen - ed
Sally ++ Lottie (2)
Lottie ++ Wilwa

VOTES (DEAD)
Lommy - Greenie --> sally
Agan - Nerwen --> ed
Nog - Angu --> Lottie
Fea - Angu --> Lottie

Not my first choice, but I won't let a double lynch happen if I can avoid it...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Aaaaand double lynch successfully avoided. You're welcome.

Bed time. :)

[Macalaure]

Another soul enters the Halls of the Dead, lamenting its ill fate and unjust trial, and yearning to be cured of its hurts.

Is Loslote indeed as innocent and wrongly lynched as she earnestly claims, or have the evil spirits corrupted her mind too deeply for Mandos' powers to penetrate? Maybe the dead can tell.


The living:

Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
wilwarin538
Legate
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel


The dead:

Rikae (mod)
Macalaure (co-mod)
Mänwe (not a wolf)
Nogrod
Blind Guardian
Feanor of the Peredhil
Aganzir (Beren)
Shastanis Althreduin (Lúthien)
Thinlómien (not a wolf)
Nessa Telrunya
Loslote

It is Night 5 now, do what you have to.

[Loslote]

Hey...I'm dead...wheeeee ;)

Really though. I'm just an ordo. If you want to check me so as to comply with the Living Instructions, okay, but I'd prefer to look at Nessa.

[Nogrod]

I do think people shouldn't just bandwagon for one player now that the outcome of the lynch is still far from clear, but the way Nog put it is just wrongSo you finally realised that I was right all along, but you are just not going to admit it? :rolleyes:

but in the end I think the double lynch of two suspicious players (which Nog seems to be so afraid of) is better than the lynch of one innocent.With the dwindling number of people alive and considering the exceptional nature of this game with innocents having basically no idea about anyone's role, the chances for the wolves to co-operate, fex. creating a double lynch of two innocents, are dramatically better than in a normal game.

And I do dislike double-lynches in general as well. In some exceptional situations a village can use it for good, but on average they are just one more tool for the baddies.


Okay, on other matters now.

First: welcome Lottie!

Here's my welcoming gift to you:

++ Lottie

I hope you like it. :)


Secondly: I'd like to remind everyone that I can dream of either Fea or Lommy this Night, so any views into which one to choose would be appreciated.

Just tell me which one's exact role would be more important to find out?


I'm having a busy day as well but I hope to be able to read yesterDay's posting from the living-thread later today. More on my feelings about the living then.

[Loslote]

First: welcome Lottie!

Here's my welcoming gift to you:

++ Lottie

I hope you like it. :)

Mm, I love it. ;)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

++LOTTIE!

Welcome!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Ugh ugh ugh. I'm sorry for not being around - someone got me sick and I don't know who and now I feel awful. :(

++Nessa

I'm getting the same feeling about Lottie that I got from Nog - that they're sure they'll come up innocent, so don't care if they're voted. The fact that Nog immediately voted Lottie speaks to me as well. I think we should look at Nessa, who hasn't said word one since she's been here (as far as I know).

[Aganzir]

Hey...I'm dead...wheeeee ;)

Really though. I'm just an ordo. If you want to check me so as to comply with the Living Instructions, okay, but I'd prefer to look at Nessa.
Actually, the living instructed us to check Nessa. As far as I can see only Boro (check Nessa), sally (check the lynch) and phantom (check Nessa if Lommy was innocent) said anything definite about it... of course it's possible I missed something in which case I'm going to retract (I haven't the time to read the day through properly so I only skimmed it).

++NESSA

I'm more interested in her than Lottie's wolfishness anyway...

I'll probably manage to post something later, but most of my night will be spent roleplaying.

[Nogrod]

Don't waste your vote on Nessa, she is an ordinary innocent.

Well sure you can do it. But I will then tell you "I told you so". :rolleyes:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Don't waste your vote on Nessa, she is an ordinary innocent.

Well sure you can do it. But I will then tell you "I told you so". :rolleyes:

Regardless of the ongoing debate of your seership, the living expect us to check Nessa, and that is how they will interpret our message toMorrow.

[Nogrod]

I have just updated myself by reading what I have missed (1½ Days...).

I'll make some points about them the next thing, but just one thing about our choice of a vote. Looking at the discussion and the votes given there with the living I do think Lottie's role (wolf or not) could actually open some room for real speculation about different alignments.

I have also the added reason for it, that I know Nessa to be an ordo, but from that follows and important thing: the voting on D3 was terrible! There were two innocents on offer and basically no-one else. So the wolves really could have just leaned back and enjoyed themselves. Although that confidence sometimes shines through a wolf's posting and that should be looked for (I'll try to check it tomorrow).

[Nogrod]

Regardless of the ongoing debate of your seership, the living expect us to check Nessa, and that is how they will interpret our message toMorrow.Okay. I'll dream of Lottie then. Don't change that.

I'm actually sending the dream right now. With good luck I could get the answer before I go to sleep.

[Nogrod]

Regardless of the ongoing debate of your seershipI must say I haven't seen any debate lately... :rolleyes:

But this gives me one more reason to beg you to reconsider once again.

I can't prove you I'm the seer, but grant me this: next time you speculate about possible alliances, possible tricks by wolves, possible wolf-organised lynchings, possible mate-savings etc. Spend a few minutes looking at them from the POV of what I say is true. That's all I can ask you for now.

Here's especially where Lottie's role comes to the fore: whichever one she is will shed some light into the voting of yesterDay down there. Also by supposing for a moment that I tell you the truth about Nessa being innocent, you could look at that lynching on D3 with fresh eyes; like looking at who leers the widest when two innocents face the gallows (and I do not mean so much Lottie here - or tp, the other initiator of the double-lynch, is the cobbler you remember; but those who were looking too confident there rather in the background).

Try it.


Oh, and...

-- Lottie
++ Nessa

(It feels pretty stupid to vote to find out a role of the person you know better this vote will ever give you guys, but anyway.)

[Nogrod]

Okay. I started to write on a few things but this first turned out to be such an alarming one I'll just post this first (and then check the clock).

I really disliked the way Boro and the phantom drove that "the dead will do this on our bidding" -thing (aided somewhat by Elron & a little by Glirdy). The wolves have had the upper hand so far in the thread and especially if Lottie is not a wolf they're having a very strong position now.

Thus they know that Mandos is populated by innocents only (if there is a cobbler or two here they don't know and we don't know).

Now where is the knowledge of the roles by innocents, where is the possible trust and reasonable co-operation? Here in Mandos populated by the good-guys. Where is the chaos and total upperhand of baddies especially coming to knowledge? There in the living thread.

So the baddies would love to tie our hands here to that more or less insignificant enterprise of sending them messages there. Remember, the wolves know both Lommy and Nessa are innocents. So with strictly following that rule of sending them messages, all the innocent villagers have gained when D6 dawns is that on D3 there were two innocents facing the gallows and everyone agreed to lynch them, baddies and innocents alike.

What a waste! And not especially helpful to the innocents.

We, on the contrary know that already (you'll know about Nessa when the Day begins). We have the knowledge and should start thinking how to best use our extra-votes.

Sounding panicky? Nope. But you should also be on top of the numbers right now.

Not counting for further ranger-saves and disregarding the hunter-kill (as it could go both ways) we have the following situation:

D5 starts with 7-3

If they manage to lynch one innocent more on D5...

D6 starts with 5-3... and they need only one more succesful lynch & Nightkill to win straight (and all we have managed to give the innocents that far is the result of D3's lynching where every innocent is basically as liable as the wolves & cobblers).

So if things go as they plan - which sadly seems more likely than not - they can overpower the village quite fast, in two Days. And reducing us to a message-senders the baddies make sure we don't try to get involved any other way in there during these critical two Days ahead. Thus letting them reign supreme there.


I thought it was bad some people called for stiff rules and sticking to the plan whatever the situation - but having thought it through now, it looks really evil.

[Aganzir]

So you finally realised that I was right all along, but you are just not going to admit it? :rolleyes:
Not exactly. I have nothing against the people I trust (mainly Shasta and Fea) seeing to it that everything goes alright but a plan like that, especially coming from you, doesn't make me feel good. Too many things could go wrong there.

I'm sorry I'm not posting more but I'm really quite tired (I actually slept for 45 minutes during class). See you tomorrow, I should have more time then.

[Loslote]

++Nessa

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

--Lottie
++Nessa

I does as I's told...

[Macalaure]

Toilsome is the fate of the Elves who once forsook the bliss of the West and traveled forth in rebellion. Now the once fiery hearts have cooled and have grown weary of the gift of life. Lost in the vastness of Ard-galen and awaiting cruel death, two of them chose to let go of their bodies out of their own free will. In the morning, Wilwa and Legate were found fast asleep, never to wake again.

Somebody else among them was also not going to wake again, but more obviously so: Mith's body parts were strewn over the green fields, her face distorted into a grotesque expression of screaming pain. The living quickly turned away, admiring the still peacefulness of the other deaths instead.

So Mith, Wilwa and Legate joined their comrades among the dead, who greeted them with the news that Nessa was not a wolf.


The living:

Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Anguirel


The dead:

Rikae (mod)
Macalaure (co-mod)
Mänwe (not a wolf)
Nogrod
Blind Guardian
Feanor of the Peredhil
Aganzir (Beren)
Shastanis Althreduin (Lúthien)
Thinlómien (not a wolf)
Nessa Telrunya (not a wolf)
Loslote
Mithalwen
wilwarin538
Legate of Amon Lanc

And another Day starts!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Good lord, if we haven't gotten a wolf by now... I would assume that anyone playing has too much to do as a wolf to consider being modkilled, so I doubt Wilwa and Legate are anything too special... still, it's a little annoying that a game that such thought has gone into on the part of the mods is so rampant with modfire.

Eight players alive remaining, probably three wolves and at least one cobbler? We're doomed.

[Rikae]

there is no reason for you to have an expanded girth or cellulite-filled hindquarters.

Aw, man. Cellulite-filled hindquarters are my favorite! Delicious.

To make the deal even juicier

Why do you keep talking about food? Is it because you're named after food? You see us as food? Either way, baddie!

woof down a whole pizza or some McDonald's french fries

So, you thought saying "wolf down" would be too obvious? That clinches it.

++RHCC

[Shastanis Althreduin]

She's got pretty much all the points. Rikae, you're the Seer who dreamt of RHCC, aren't you!

++RHCC

[Mithalwen]

I think I am going to take this personally - cellulite filled hindquarters? Expanded waistline? As well as being grotesque in death. Don't you know grief can make you comfort eat and Death is the ultimate sedentary lifestyle? Grr. WOuld go to bed and sulk if I weren't so curious. sniffs

[Loslote]

Does anyone else find it alarming that the spambot posted "I know where you live"?

[Nogrod]

Uh-oh.

In a hurry but just a piece of information.

Lottie is an ordinary innocent.

Which means the wolves have been quite single-handedly steering the lynches the way they see fit.


And if Legate and Wilwa just gave up the game... then I see little hope for the village right now as they would have to really bring their act together toDay.

Unless one of the two is a wolf - which I doubt at the moment.


WHat is this RHCC everyone talks about? A spam or something? Well nevermind.

[Mithalwen]

Suppose I may as well keen to myself....

[Rikae]

Because Legate and Wilwa are not simply dead, but no longer playing, I've decided to reveal what their roles were (check the living narration).

[Mithalwen]

We have known roles - Legate was a cobbler (got something right) and Wilwa a common or garden innocent. Bad news for the village is that they lost 3 non wolves in a night.

[Nogrod]

Sorry, but I'm now going to end this "I know you can't trust me on this issue, but maybe you could be so nice as to consider..." etc. stuff and will go straight into how this game is now. You can then think yourselves whether you consider it worthwhile or not. Up to you.


Residents of Mandos:

Mänwe - ordinary innocent (N3 dream)
Nogrod - the seer
Blind Guardian - innocent whose role has been taken away
Feanor of the Peredhil - ordo or cobbler
Aganzir - Beren (also N1 dream)
Shastanis Althreduin - Lúthien
Thinlómien - ordo or cobbler
Nessa Telrunya - ordinary innocent (N4 dream)
Loslote - ordinary innocent (N5 dream)
Mithalwen - unknown innocent

In the living thread are still:

Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
satansaloser2005
the phantom - a cobbler (N2 dream)
Boromir88
Anguirel

So 8 players.

3 wolves (until either Wilwa or Legate were wolves) and at least one cobbler (tp). Unless Mith is the ranger, there are four innocents including the ranger and the hunter.

Be that as it may, the most probable scenario seems to be there are 3 wolves + 1-2 cobblers (wilwa or Legate could have been cobblers but probably not wolves) vs. 3-4 goodies.

Looking at how easily the wolves have handled the lynches thus far there is no reason to believe they'd fare any worse toDay with the remarkably smaller village where they are even able to take some risks toDay to meet their ends.

In any case, they need only two non-wolves killed and they win, while the chances that the villagers manage to actively lynch one of them are slim indeed, in not just nonexistent.

So in practise the thing that could grant us some added time is the hunter getting killed and taking one wolf down with her/him.

Here: enter the cobblers who know their math.

My prediction: the phantom will try to get lynched toDay to give the wolves a non-hunter to the gallows to make it safe for the wolves (and he'd love to get in here to spend even the last Night among us here - basically to brag; I presume :rolleyes:). And why not, if there is another cobbler, s/he might try the same... (whom, if identified correctly by the ranger would lead to the odd situation where the ranger's best bet would be to protect a cobbler...)

A ranger-save could prolong the game with at least one Day as well.

Although the wolves might drive for a double-lynch as well toDay. :eek:


All in all, I'm not too optimistic about the general situation, but I am slightly optimistic that we can come up with decently believable chart of the roles down there among the living with the aid of which we could try to help the villagers with the lynch - if they can pull their act together that much as to get one wolf contending for the lynching for real. Without that there's no way we can help them now.


EDIT: X'd with Rikae & Mith - So Legate was a cobbler! Good news for a change.

[Nogrod]

YesterDay's voting:

Ang -> Lottie
Green -> Sally
Nerwen -> Elron
Sally -> Lottie 2
Lottie -> Wilwa
Glirdan -> Ang
NONWOLFMith -> Lottie 3
COBBLERtp -> Elron 2
Elron -> Boro
++ Ang -> Lottie 4

I'm somehow uneasy with Fea there.It may be I'm paranoid as she basically did well to prevent the double-lynch. But something still bugs me.

The reason for it I can see though: with Fea's decision it is clear Elron, whom many of us suspected more or less, was saved. Also Fea's claim to do that to prevent a double-lynch 9 minutes before the DL when there were still 7 votes possibly coming looks a bit odd and casts a doubt on to her motives behind the move.

This is what she said 9 minutes before the DL when changing her vote from Nerwen (voted Elron) to Anguirel (voted Lottie): I don't want to allow for a double lynch, so I'm going to change my vote since I haven't trusted Lottie in quite some time.The interesting thing here is that the dead votes thus far had been:

Fea - Nerwen --> ed
Lommy - Greenie --> sally
Agan - Nerwen --> ed
Nog - Angu --> Lottie

And Shasta hadn't voted. The probability that if he turned around to vote was high he'd gone with Agan in voting Nerwen as well (thus giving our extravote against Elron). With changing her vote Fea made it sure our extravote would not go against Elron.

That scenario would then aptly explain her clear joy after the results came and her change of mind had actually prevented a double lynch (quite improbable at the time she changed her mind?): Aaaaand double lynch successfully avoided. You're welcome.


If we'd have time, I'd sure wish to check her for possible cobblery. But it may be we can't afford it at this point of the game. And if she is the other remaining cobbler, then we have a problem here trying to efectively help the village if she can throw in a last minute vote while most of the active dead are from Europe and thus harldy able to stay up to the DL to try and counter that...

I'm sorry Fea if you're not a cobbler, but I hope you see why I have come to these suspicions.


On another note. I am a bit disappointed with how the lynching of Lottie in fact went. While reading it yesterday in a hurry it felt like there were things going on and that we might be able to read something from it - but it does look more confusing now...

Well, we still have time to read and think.

[Nogrod]

What do you think of Ang's performance there?
I lean towards advising Glorfindel to come out, really. We have so little other information.Now as is, the identity of the ranger would be the second last piece the wolves are missing from their puzzle - and it woud grant them a secure & non-hunter Night kill giving them the victory if they just lynch someone right toDay.

But then again, if Mith is not the ranger (which I was kind of hoping for for a few reasons we might discuss later) as she hasn't claimed to be it, then a ranger-Ang could have been the one protecting her, and thus his suggestion might be a trap for the wolves or cobblers to come forwards promoting it?

I distrust the phantom with extreme prejudice. I don't like his immediate if typical attempt to claim the Day's direction and steer it towards Elron, a vulnerable, easy-to-lynch candidate whom he knows many people (me for instance) vaguely suspect. As in WW I itself, our "two luminaries", phantom and Boro, the great statistical plotters, are at war. It is very unlikely that both are guilty. At the moment I would also say that neither are wolves, and that phantom is, after all, a Cobbler.

Which means we cannot dismiss that aboriginal question. Was Nogrod telling the truth?Once again going both ways... Is this Ang the wolf signalling to tp that they are now confident about him (note the added comment on me being right initially when telling him to be the cobbler), and telling him to stay away from Elron? Maybe even telling him to stay away from Boro as well? He even goes to underline his pointing to tp in the end of the same post: damnation, I seem genuinely only to suspect the phantom now. Consumed in obsession. And I don't even think he's a wolf, just a Cobbler.Or is he just making the innocent's (ranger's?) fair POV that it might be I was right and that tp is the cobbler, and that he fairly thinks Elron is a "vaguely suspected easy lynch". (Then again it would be the wolfy-way of trying to save your mate.)

Also, after hearing about Legate having been a cobbler he ponders whether that puts an end to my believability.But still feel the need to post once more to state this: there's probably still a cobbler around, even if I'm pretty sure his name is phantomAnd that in a post where he also speculates whether we still have two or three wolves around, claiming not to understand the maths and thus being not too aware of the direness of the situation... (which a wlf would know exactly, that this is more or less the decisive Day - and getting the name of the ranger would be crucial...)

I can see Ang both ways but right now I'm more tempted to lean towards him being a crafty wolf. It's not a wide margin though and partly rests on my quite unfounded assumption that Elron could be a wolf, and that he's better in maths than that. :)

What do you think?

[Nogrod]

if Glorfy's alive, looking at the desperate situation and need for some type of tangible roles...now is as good of a time as any for Glorfy to step out.:eek: :mad:

What I said...


*Yells to the game-thread: "Don't listen to them Glorfindel!!!"*

Yes, we'd need her/him here, but only if we have a game to go on in the first place. And now it will only pay for the wolves to know her/his identity.

The ranger can protect her/himself to be sure, but as the wolves know s/he was protecting Mith the Night before the chances are good s/he protected her/himself last Night. So s/he woud be killable the coming Night...


Please hunter, make yourself the target and hit it right!

[Nogrod]

The most manipulative and mis-leading player this entire duration has been the phantom. Lynch him, even if he may only turn up cobbler.See the plan now?

Lynch the phantom (not the hunter), out the ranger and kill her/him at Night (not the hunter) as s/he will probably not be able to self-protect... = Wolf Victory!

[Nogrod]

Heh, I'm trying not to get too carried away with my theory - and I admit it might be wrong at least on some of the concerned - but if Ang, Boro and Elron are the wolves (and Fea the second cobbler), I'm claiming some bragging rights for this. :)

Anyway, when I come back I try to see this from some other angle not to get stuck with what now looks like a good theory, well decent... at least plausible. Anyway the first wholesome theory that is backed by some real "evidence". :cool:

If someone has time s/he could check whether what I said would make sense looking at the votings and the possible leering behaviour around them / saving Elron.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Okay. I'm going to rock some suspension of disbelief (even though I'm not a cobbler).

Nog: what do YOU think we (the Dead) should be doing right now, and what do YOU think they (the Living) should do toDay?

[Nogrod]

Nog: what do YOU think we (the Dead) should be doing right now, and what do YOU think they (the Living) should do toDay?Well there is a simple answer to both of your questions. The problem is to be succesful with them.

We the dead should try and come up with the most accurate view of the situation there among the living as possible aka. who are the wolves and how they try to play it out as they need only two innocents dead?

The living should pull their act together and get at least one wolf on top of the lynching list (first or second most votes but not more than one vote's difference if second) - then we could try to help near the DL by giving the extravote to lynch the suspected baddie.

That should be the top priority - and the only thing that would immediately affect the game giving us more time. Otherwise we need to just pray for a hunter-kill. Sadly neither is totally under our own control: if the goodies don't give us a probable wolf for us to vote with a consequence (one added vote being enough), then no can do; if the wolves don't kill the hunter / s/he is not lynched, then no can do.


Heh, I just saw Nerwen's post... one more candidate for cobblery... :confused:


EDIT: just saw Nerwen posting a second post which looks quite reasonable... *sigh*

[Mithalwen]

I doubt the ranger would have protected themself last night assuming I was the previously protected one. HAving failed once the wolves would have wanted a certain kill especially since their target was widely spoken of as innocent. I have only once been lynched as an innocent and my voting decisions tend to be better at endgame when I have a cleared picture. Glorfy would have been certain enough I were doomed and would't have wasted a self protect.

[Nogrod]

Glorfy would have been certain enough I were doomed and would't have wasted a self protect.Good point, that's true indeed. I didn't think about that, but it does not actually change the fact that the wolves wish to have the ranger's identity.

First of all, they might try to suggest sending the ranger to Mandos to gather knowledge via a lynch - with the false pretense that they have already bagged one wolf and that they have time for it (which they don't - even if they had bagged one wolf already, which they haven't either - compare to the speculation about it being reasonable to think they have done it already *Nerwen*), thus leaving the village unprotected for two Nights...

Or depending on the general mood, if it goes against lynching the ranger (why they haven't openly suggested it yet), the identity of the ranger known would help them determine whom s/he might protect if not her/himself... critical things if the ranger is still alive and they need a "clean shot" the next Night to win immediately.


But all this raises some doubts in me for my initial theory anyway.

So what do you think, how probable it is the innocent villagers really think they have gotten one wolf already? If they were confident about that, it would be more understandable they speculated about the ranger themselves s well (so not everyone calling for the ranger to come out would be bad per se, but only unthoughtful... although even that leaves me puzzled as to why don't they see how on the edge they are, were it that way.

Let me speculate. Looking at it that way, an innocent confident on one wolf already bagged would have it 2-6. Looking at how many have died (add the popular meme I am a cobbler & the case Legate), they'd probably think there is one cobbler left there.

So 2-1-5?

Losing two innocents before toMorrow (lynch & Nightkill) would mean toMorrow numbers would be like 2-1-3 (end of game most probably) or 2-4 (chances to play). But the ranger would be back only the Day after that... so they'd think they'd have to hang on without any knowledge for a full Day after that with either of the odds above.

As I said, quite puzzling. If an innocent thought of the odds for survival they'd need to go for a wolf and fast, even if they thought they were one wolf down. And there Boro says let's lynch the phantom even if he is just a cobbler! The "ranger method" is basically too slow now as s/he would be back there only two Days from now giving the wolves ample chances to kill people with no ranger around protecting them. And with Mith gone there is no other news the ranger might give them.

And the wolves know there are three of them so none of the above really puzzles them, but they may try to play on that.

But trying to separate possible innocent speculation from the malicious ones, what do you think - especially Mith and other "latest arrivals" - is there a feeling there that they have rid themselves of one wolf already? (I'm especially thinking about Ang here and whether I should reconsider what he said back there - needs to check it myself as well.)

[Aganzir]

Welcome Mith!

We will find out about Nessa today. If she's guilty then Green, Nerwen, Phantom, or Ang will receive an extra vote.
Liar. Odd for wolf and even for non-wolf. So Green, Nerwen, phantom or Ang will receive the extra vote because Lommy wasn't a wolf - but I'm not fond of it at all... Let's see. There are eight people alive, and unless Nog or Lottie was a wolf it means all the wolves are still there. Thus if they lynch an innocent today and kill one tonight, it's 3-3 tomorrow. Which means we should probably strive to get a suspected wolf lynched instead of delivering messages... Even though it will muddy up things for the innocents. Hmm. Will have to think about it.

I am paranoid about everyone (except Shasta, Mith and Fea). Yes, even the phantom - although I'm sure he isn't an ordo. Either he's a cobbler, or he's the hunter or the ranger who wanted to stay alive as long as necessary and is now trying to get himself killed... I wouldn't put it past him to scheme like that even if it confused the rest of the village. But this time he looks much worse than when I last saw him do it.

I'm going to do some delving into the early days now.

[Aganzir]

If an innocent thought of the odds for survival they'd need to go for a wolf and fast, even if they thought they were one wolf down. And there Boro says let's lynch the phantom even if he is just a cobbler!
Exactly. I really dislike that. They've kept phantom alive long even though he's been looking mighty suspicious and only now that they really need to get a wolf are they starting to think about lynching him...

[Mithalwen]

If my hunch is correct then Glorfindel has the nous to go their own way.

[Nogrod]

Right now it looks like Boro and Nerwen are playing for lynching the phantom. And lynching a cobbler would be very good for the wolves toDay - unless the ranger comes to the fore and the general mood could be made to lynch her/him fr unrealistic hopes for info.



On yet another thing (I promised to stop with this begging, but this is actually worth mentioning to you "doubting Thomases").

If I'm not the seer, what do you think the actual seer is doing right now? :rolleyes:

S/he's been overtly quiet even if all reason says s/he would have some news to ease the innocent's tough situation. No responsible seer would go quiet toDay.

So a false reveal coming up? Possibly. But the wolves have it good now and probably even forget to think about that - which would actually mean they at least see I was the seer and have it comfortable with it. What kind of puzzles me is that the innocents seem to have forgotten the seer as well: people say I was not the seer but no one is talking about the "real" seer coming forwards. Where is s/he lurking when the village needs her/him?

Remember: Ang and Boro started speculating about the ranger coming forwards, not the seer. Shouldn't they have called the seer to give them some information? No, they said they need the ranger to come forwards for information!!!

Also, when the seer enters here he calls himself that - and you know no one else has said it but me. Why? Because I am the seer. That's also why no one comes forwards in the living thread.

And it would be a tough mission to pose as a seer there as the fake-one should have a believable history of five dreams with exact roles (if two of the 3-4 ordinary innocents have special roles that's a tough call for the faker as the innocents will imediately realise if it goes wrong).

If there is a false revelation, let me predict it will have a host of dead players with it with the apology of "sorry guys but they just died before I got to reveal them"... :p

[Nogrod]

I'm going to do some delving into the early days now.Agan: Before you continue on making the points I have already made, please read first what I have said toDay. I think the situation is pretty much dire and we need not waste time parrotting each other. Like this: if they lynch an innocent today and kill one tonight, it's 3-3 tomorrow. Which means we should probably strive to get a suspected wolf lynched instead of delivering messages...
Bingo! :rolleyes:

Okay. I need to be off for now though (hmph, just as some others finally join in... :(), but I'll be back later.

[Mithalwen]

If Blind Guardian was the seer we lost some dreams. Replacement may either have had dreams that revealed nothing useful or information not appropriate to reveal. After all we have at least 2 good gifteds left and I would not expect the seer to "out" Glorfindel or the Hunter.

[Aganzir]

Good job Anguirel. :cool: I am not very surprised, and I doubt we're going to see a counter reveal (although I kind of hope for one)...

I wonder if he'll join us tonight.

I'm sorry Fea if you're not a cobbler, but I hope you see why I have come to these suspicions.
And how do you think she could have known Lottie was innocent and ed a wolf? As a cobbler, she couldn't. It sounds almost like Nog *gasp* knows ed is a wolf! :eek: (Remember we never checked him for wolvery ;)).

as the wolves know s/he was protecting Mith the Night before the chances are good s/he protected her/himself last Night.
I don't quite see how the former leads to the latter.

Bingo!
Forgive me if I overlooked your posts even though they shine so nicely with shoe-polish, but I failed to see you say anything about dropping the message sending plan.

[Nogrod]

We probably still have a hunter, too. If s/he and Glorfindel reveal there will be a flurry of reaction and maybe some rival claimants, but I think in shifting the terms of debate this would actually be helpful. After all, a revealed hunter can look after themselves to an extent; wolves late in the game are very cautious about attacking them. I've known hunters be very useful out in the open...The hunter is the only one who can fight back. If the hunter reveals the wolves know to stay away from her/him - and we lose.

Also looking at the way Boro started going after the phantom for real (a build up and then voting him) and tp starting this more agressive defence all seem to fit.


Agan: sorry about that "parroting" -remark, but I was just getting offline after almost five hours of work with the thread feeling I had finally gotten us forwards and you seemed to totally ignore what I had done (especially the things which I thought important eg. the actual suspicions) and only restated few of the general things I had stated already... but the way you stated them looked like you presented them as your own ideas thus letting me understand you hadn't read anything I had posted. Which frustrated me quite a lot. Sorry.

Mith said:If Blind Guardian was the seerDo you have a reason to believe that? Like his/her (?) enthusiasm to help the village afterwards? Or something that would outweigh the things speaking on behalf of me being the seer? That would have to be quite an outstanding case indeed. Couldn't you Mith present it to us if you think so?


Okay, I know I start slowly to sound like myself on D2 *frowns* but the inactivity of most and the ignorance & open willingness to not even consider anything I say does make me feel less interested to put up an effort.


EDIT: X'd with Agan

[Nogrod]

Oops! *Ang's revelation*

Well that... gives food for thought.

[Aganzir]

Haven't read your post yet but I totally cracked up at the title! :----D Like, how much more cobblerish can you get? :p :D :smokin:

[Nogrod]

Good job Anguirel. :cool: I am not very surprised, and I doubt we're going to see a counter reveal (although I kind of hope for one)...

I wonder if he'll join us tonight.This is a complicated game, but to your question there probably is a quite a straightforward answer.


If Ang is the ranger he will join us as the wolves and cobbler(s) will talk it that way. And unless the hunter performs miracles (if given a chance) we have lost when the next Day dawns.

If Ang is a wolf he will not join us. But if the real ranger then counter reveals s/he either comes here or is then known to the wolves.

Not that complicated at all?


EDIT: X'd with Agan again

[Aganzir]

but the way you stated them looked like you presented them as your own ideas thus letting me understand you hadn't read anything I had posted. Which frustrated me quite a lot. Sorry.
Nah no harm done - I was rather just writing down my thoughts and even though I didn't phrase it that clearly, what to do with the messages was the thing I was the most interested in (and still am).

Okay, I know I start slowly to sound like myself on D2 *frowns* but the inactivity of most and the ignorance & open willingness to not even consider anything I say does make me feel less interested to put up an effort.
I'm sorry Nog but there's nothing you can do to make me trust you... I just read over day 2 and if I had had any doubts, I feel worse about you than ever. (But I'm so so sorry for you if you're actually the seer... :p)

[Nogrod]

how much more cobblerish can you get? :p :D :smokin:Tell me how it helps the village that the wolves can avoid the hunter for sure?

Tell me also how it helps the village if the ranger leaves the village unprotected for two Nights in a row?


Crack only after that, if you can.

[Aganzir]

If Ang is the ranger he will join us as the wolves and cobbler(s) will talk it that way. And unless the hunter performs miracles (if given a chance) we have lost when the next Day dawns.

If Ang is a wolf he will not join us. But if the real ranger then counter reveals s/he either comes here or is then known to the wolves.
I don't know. He might protect himself, or the wolves might not want to risk him doing that and will choose another kill.

Generally I don't think a wolf would fake-reveal as the role that can be proven, but it's so late now (and in the worst case they don't need to survive long to win) that they might even think about it. Still, it doesn't seem very likely. Angu was considered pretty innocent. (Yes I believe his claim.)

[Mithalwen]

Well I was right about Ang. was sure he was Glorfindel.

And it is only a theory about BG. But frankly I find almost anything easier to believe than Nogrod really being the seer.

[Aganzir]

Tell me how it helps the village that the wolves can avoid the hunter for sure?

Tell me also how it helps the village if the ranger leaves the village unprotected for two Nights in a row?
You mean, the hunter will go after Angu instead of a suspected wolf, trusting the wolves to attack her? I wouldn't do that.

And yeah, dying is the price you often have to pay for being a known innocent, at least for a while (and thus narrowing down the village's chances of catching a wolf).

Anyhow I wasn't laughing at the content, it was just freaking hilarious that soon after Angu's ranger reveal my cobbler suspect no 1 titles his post "Anguirel is a wolf!" :D :p

[Nogrod]

I just read over day 2 and if I had had any doubts, I feel worse about you than ever. (But I'm so so sorry for you if you're actually the seer... :p)If you are looking at those early Days blindly, what do you think you will find? Even with the knowledge I have offered it might be hard to find anythnig crucial from there - although I do encourage anyone to try.

But there are things happening now - and this is most probably the last Day of the game - so I'm wondering why do you use an hour to read D1&2 when the plots are finally being played out now?

[Aganzir]

And it is only a theory about BG. But frankly I find almost anything easier to believe than Nogrod really being the seer.
Exactly. There are two options: BG was the hunter, or the seer. It's 50-50. ;)

[Aganzir]

But there are things happening now - and this is most probably the last Day of the game - so I'm wondering why do you use an hour to read D1&2 when the plots are finally being played out now?
Because I consider it worth my while, silly. :p I need some coherency, some background.

[Nogrod]

Where did you pull this from? I don't understand a word of itYou mean, the hunter will go after Angu instead of a suspected wolf, trusting the wolves to attack her? I wouldn't do that.
Okay. I try this one more time as we seem not be talking about the same thing.

Wolves win straight if two non-wolves are the next two dead (a doublelynch toDay or a lynch and a succesful Nightkill).

Which are the obstacles: the ranger (can save someone during the Night) and the hunter (can take one of them with if lucky/good).

What have Boro and Ang been doing toDay: trying to out the hunter and the seer.

I find Ang's "hunter should reveal" the most vicious one. What would follow if the hunter revealed? The wolves would know whom to avoid killing.

If the ranger reveals the wolves know if s/he is the correct one. Then they will talk the villagers to lynch the ranger and leave the village unprotected for two Nights. And there will be no Day when the ranger could go back as the game is over.

Clear enough now?

[Nogrod]

I'm sorry Nog but there's nothing you can do to make me trust you...

But frankly I find almost anything easier to believe than Nogrod really being the seer.
Well, if that is your attitude, don't ask toMorrow why we lost.

I'm not going to defend my position the whole Night another time, but I do beg you ask yourselves, what is the reason behind your conviction that no proof will turn it over or can even question it?

You should start by reading what I said toDay as you clearly haven't. (Especially Agan's comments and questions reveal she has not even bothered :()


Btw. if I was a cobbler I would be gloating already...

[Aganzir]

Where did you pull this from? I don't understand a word of it
Okay. I try this one more time as we seem not be talking about the same thing.
Ahh I thought you meant Angu's reveal would have helped the wolves to avoid the hunter which made very little sense. As I see it, your questions didn't have much to do with my post that you quoted.

trying to out the hunter and the seer.
Hum? :p

What would follow if the hunter revealed? The wolves would know whom to avoid killing. --- Then they will talk the villagers to lynch the ranger and leave the village unprotected for two Nights.
Going by the previous assumptions (all the wolves are alive and they lynch a non-wolf), their chance of hitting the hunter is 1/4. Not bad but not that good either - and the village could do with another known innocent. And they will never ever be able to talk the village into lynching Glorfy unless I've seriously underestimated everything.

[Aganzir]

Well, if that is your attitude, don't ask toMorrow why we lost.
I won't, provided that you won't blame me for losing like you were prone to do on day 2...

You should start by reading what I said toDay as you clearly haven't. (Especially Agan's comments and questions reveal she has not even bothered :()
That's silly. In spite of what you think, I do read your posts, only I try not to get distracted by arguing with you.

[Thinlómien]

Here and catching up. Seems like reading the dead thread has given me enough headache, next I should read the living thread...

A few thoughts:
- good that we're one (more?) cobbler down and he won't even be able to mess stuff up here
- I admit my ignorance might be because I haven't read everything that's been said 100% carefully, but I can't see how my one vote was so disastrous yesterDay
- I doubt a cobbler/wolf would reveal as Glorfy at this point so I trust Ang unless he's said something totally silly (shall see soon)
- hi Mith hope you don't mind I say I hope you're a cobbler like I suspected
- we should definitely not vote to steer the lynch in a way that conveys false messages! the living trust us, and if we tell them that I was a wolf and they start looking for connections that don't exist toMorrow that might doom them for the whole game
- believe it or not, my to believe or not to believe debate has actually led me to almost belive Nog's claim. If he's not the seer, where is she?!

Now off to read the rants of the living.

[Mithalwen]

Nope I am not a cobbler. I genuinely thought you were a wolf.

[Nogrod]

Going by the previous assumptions (all the wolves are alive and they lynch a non-wolf), their chance of hitting the hunter is 1/4. Not bad but not that good either - and the village could do with another known innocent. And they will never ever be able to talk the village into lynching Glorfy unless I've seriously underestimated everything.I did some speculation over these issues earlier toDay - noticing how certain people started making the point that there has to be at least one wolf bagged (eg. they wouldn't be in that dire straits), they were talking about the ranger to come forwards for information (sic) etc. etc. If you'd have rread these you wouldn't be asking.

Also I said earlier toDay that the name of the ranger is important to them even if they don't manage to send her/him here (they'd need to sense the air whether to go for it or not - that's why they were testing the air there and preparing for the possibility) as the name could give them clues as to whom the ranger might protect (if not him/herself).

And looking at how easily they have steered the lynches thus far they'll have nothing to worry on that front - especially if tp plays along and sacrifices himself (not a hunter so safe lynch)... So the village will not gain anything with "known innocents" they can not trust anyway but the wolves will do everything with the names of the last gifteds.

And many other things...

But I have told these already. Really. I've said this all already.

Will entertain myself with tv now as talking without being heard is less fun than a mediocre scifi movie..

[Mithalwen]

Oh I am inclined to believe Elrond's daughter too. That vote last night. Contrary to all evidence there can't be so many cobblers and it makes sense she wouldn't be so bothered about staying alive at this point,

[Thinlómien]

Gah this game is really seriously headache-y. Anyway, I shall be here soon again but now I have to let Greenie post and go to sleep (sharing the computer tonight).

Seriously though, I have no idea who are the wolves and which gifted claims to believe but I guess it's not so much my problem given I'm here and they are (mostly) there. :rolleyes:

[Mithalwen]

I do trust Ang - admittedly if he were a wolf he would probably want me dead for historical reasons and wouldn't hesitate but I think his playing is consistent with being a ranger. He mention Draugluin early on which was the ranger role I played in the game he modded. And it is almost certain I was protected before I was killed and that made it more likely Ang was the ranger. I think I would be a higher priority for him than the others.

[Aganzir]

- we should definitely not vote to steer the lynch in a way that conveys false messages! the living trust us, and if we tell them that I was a wolf and they start looking for connections that don't exist toMorrow that might doom them for the whole game
If it wasn't so urgent, I might be up for it - we'll probably get Angu to visit us shortly and he could then correct the village when going back. Plus it might yield interesting reactions. But yeah we probably can't afford it right now. Grr I don't like this.

- believe it or not, my to believe or not to believe debate has actually led me to almost belive Nog's claim. If he's not the seer, where is she?!
You have a point... (And yes Nog, I have read each and every one of your posts where you've asked the same.) But I just can't see Nog as innocent.

If you'd have rread these you wouldn't be asking.
Okay I confess. I never read anything you say, and I peeked into the dead thread when I was still alive. (I also quoted my PMs and intentionally switched off invisible mode.)

[Nogrod]

Mith: I did actually ask this already earlier, but would you give your two cents on this: what was the general mood back there (you're the last one coming from there)? Could they really believe we have gotten one wolf already? And as I said already back then: that might help us think about Ang and therefore help us understand the situation.

[Aganzir]

I think it's interesting that the two people who drove Lommy to the gallows in the end were Legate of Amon Shoe and Green. They brought up the cobbler points against her and suddenly everyone else was suspicious of her too...

Also, what do you think of sally's case against Angu in light of what has happened lately? Is it too strong to be wolfish?

I think our wolves are among these people:
A Little Green
Nerwen
satansaloser2005
Boromir88

And here are our extra vote options, again:
A Little Green
Nerwen
the phantom
Anguirel

The only one I trust is Angu but we'll have to see...

[Thinlómien]

Anguirel would be the safest bet for the extra vote, but not necessarily the wisest. Depends who he votes. (Ha, as if I knew whom I suspect myself!)

I have to vote and go soon because I promised Greenie she can have the computer 00.38. ;)

[Nogrod]

Okay Agan, let's not start again this. And I think you can't afford that scorn anyway.

You try to give the impression you are reading all I have posted and even after that have no reason to believe me. Heh. How can you then say this: Forgive me if I overlooked your posts even though they shine so nicely with shoe-polish, but I failed to see you say anything about dropping the message sending plan.How about these?

So the baddies would love to tie our hands here to that more or less insignificant enterprise of sending them messages there. Remember, the wolves know both Lommy and Nessa are innocents. So with strictly following that rule of sending them messages, all the innocent villagers have gained when D6 dawns is that on D3 there were two innocents facing the gallows and everyone agreed to lynch them, baddies and innocents alike.

What a waste! And not especially helpful to the innocents.

We, on the contrary know that already (you'll know about Nessa when the Day begins). We have the knowledge and should start thinking how to best use our extra-votes.

.....

So if things go as they plan - which sadly seems more likely than not - they can overpower the village quite fast, in two Days. And reducing us to a message-senders the baddies make sure we don't try to get involved any other way in there during these critical two Days ahead. Thus letting them reign supreme there.

We the dead should try and come up with the most accurate view of the situation there among the living as possible aka. who are the wolves and how they try to play it out as they need only two innocents dead?

The living should pull their act together and get at least one wolf on top of the lynching list (first or second most votes but not more than one vote's difference if second) - then we could try to help near the DL by giving the extravote to lynch the suspected baddie.

That should be the top priority - and the only thing that would immediately affect the game giving us more time. Otherwise we need to just pray for a hunter-kill. Sadly neither is totally under our own control: if the goodies don't give us a probable wolf for us to vote with a consequence (one added vote being enough), then no can do; if the wolves don't kill the hunter / s/he is not lynched, then no can do.
Okay. I'll cut it with that.

Just one last remark on the subject: But I'm so so sorry for you if you're actually the seer...Which you clearly don't mean... I'm okay with that though. But you shouldn't be sorry just for me, but for yourself and all the other innocents who are threathened because you don't even try to look at things from a different (=truthful) POV.

I mean if you really read and thought of what I said and then said it's bad thinking and won't help us - pointing to the flaws etc., I'd be happy to stand corected and try harder to find the truth. But the fact that you wouldn't even consider, that you say there is no argument to make you change your mind, makes this all quite futile for me.


How about you fex. thought about my theory of the wolves and gave it a good scrutiny? Or came up with a better theory?

We need to have a general picture anyway if we wish to help the innocents in the end of the Day.

Messages or not... there probably will not be a next Day if we fail toDay.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Here and reading, with a question - did I miss something, Nog, that you're so sure BG was innocent? Is there any reason she couldn't be a wolf (and her wolf role given to a cobbler)?

[Nogrod]

Here and reading, with a question - did I miss something, Nog, that you're so sure BG was innocent? Is there any reason she couldn't be a wolf (and her wolf role given to a cobbler)?I think Rikae said somewhere that she is now ordinary innocent and that her alignment didn't change. Not going to go back to find it though as I try to get back to reading the living thread.

[Mithalwen]

Mith: I did actually ask this already earlier, but would you give your two cents on this: what was the general mood back there (you're the last one coming from there)? Could they really believe we have gotten one wolf already? And as I said already back then: that might help us think about Ang and therefore help us understand the situation.

It isn't a real place. I can only go on what is posted as we can here. I have said what I think about Ang. I have no reason to doubt him.

[Thinlómien]

Okay

++Anguirel

*deep sigh*

That's all I can do for now. See you soon again.

[Aganzir]

You try to give the impression you are reading all I have posted and even after that have no reason to believe me. Heh. How can you then say this: How about these?
I was talking about changing the plan for today. As I saw it, you were dissing the plan in general. I wouldn't compare them like that.
And my not believing you has more to do with what you did when you were still alive. If you're the seer I have a piece of advice for you: cut down drinking and go to sleep earlier when playing werewolf. (I know this sounds like I'm just trying to be a prick but I'm not. You've been freaking weird in this game and I have a hard time putting it all down on RL reasons.)

Just one last remark on the subject: Which you clearly don't mean...
I mean it, I really do. I would hate to be seer!Nog right now and having to put up with stubborn people like me.

you don't even try to look at things from a different (=truthful) POV.
Have you looked at your posts from someone's point of view who doesn't know your role?

Here and reading, with a question - did I miss something, Nog, that you're so sure BG was innocent? Is there any reason she couldn't be a wolf (and her wolf role given to a cobbler)?
Yeah, Rikae just said her new role is of the same alignment as her previous. It's somewhere in the living thread.