WW LXXXIX: The Terror of Tol Fuin

[Inziladun]

It was the year 952 of the Second Age of the mortal lands of Arda. In Númenor, the Land of the Star of the Edain, Men lived in bliss scarcely less than that of the Eldar of Eressëa.There was peace and prosperity.
With peace though, may come boredom, and that has ever been so for the race of Men. Those of Númenor who desired adventure, having no enemy upon which to wage war, exercised their minds and energies as mariners, sailing north, south, and east.
Many coasts they had visited since the time of Tar-Elendil, the fourth king. During his reign, the shores of Middle-earth had first been reached by a ship from Númenor. His grandson, Tar-Aladrion, had before he took the Sceptre begun the Guild of Venturers, to which those who would sail the ships belonged. It is in his reign that this tale begins.

************************************************** **************************************************

Inziladun of the Guild of Venturers had spent over half his life sailing the Sea. He had gained the esteem of his fellows, becoming a captain. Interested in old tales and lore, he knew the story of Túrin Turambar well, and of the legend which said the graves of Túrin and his mother, Morwen Eledhwen had remained above the waters at the breaking of Angband which had ended the First Age. The voyage to Middle-earth he had made several times, but it came into his mind to wonder why he never before had thought to try to find the island where the graves must be. He had heard from the Eldar in Lindon that there were indeed three islands to the northwest of their harbour of Mithlond, though none of them had made the journey.

"The resting place of Túrin the Hapless should be unmolested by us," they had said. "South we go, but mostly West, when those of the Elves here on the Hither Shore give in to the sea-longing and desire to return to Aman."

At length, Inziladun resolved to attempt the feat, recruiting other mariners of the Guild. It did not take long to find many willing to go with him. Now he had only to gain the blessing of King Aldarion.


************************************************** **************************************************

Three weeks later, the spring sun shone on a lonely ship at Sea.
King Aldarion had made no bother about the proposal, saying to Inziladun that he only wished he could accompany them. Now, fifteen people altogether had embarked, their destinaton, Tol Morwen.

The weather had thus far been fair. Now, though, ominous clouds had begun to appear on the north-western horizon. as the sun began to set. The dark clouds appeared to be blood-stained, and the crew nervously joked about that hopefully not being an ill omen.

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DO NOT POST HERE YET

[Inziladun]

As the light faded, the clouds grew darker. Bright shards of purple lightning rent the sky, and thunder boomed overhead. The wind began to pick up, and whitecaps surrounded the ship. The seas grew heavier by the minute, and the mariners were hard put to it, as heavy rains lashed them unrelentingly.
Around midnight, a roaring noise was heard in the darkness, and all feared a waterspout had come to finish them. Some prayed to Uinen that she might have pity on them, and restrain her husband Ossë's wrath.
Suddenly the lookouts cried out in alarm. A dark line of jagged land had appeared before them. The winds had dismasted the ship, and the crew was helpless to steer. With a tremendous tearing noise, the ship shuddered violently, and the mariners watched in horror as water began to pour into the holes sharp rocks had torn into her keel. Nothing they could do would save her. Leaping overboard, they swam desperately toward the shore, hoping luck would see them safely through the piled rocks protruding from the surf.

************************************************** **************************************************

Dawn's light grew on a desolate beach. The crew lay hither and yon, sprawled wearily out of reach of the tides which pounded and roared. The storm seemed to be ending, though. Slowly, they took stock of one another. All but one were found to be all right, if sore and very bruised. Inziladun, though, had broken his leg. He had been the last to leave the ship, and had leaped into the waters very late, landing on a large rock. Bone protruded from the limb, and he was unable to stand.

As the light increased, the crew could see high cliffs, topped with trees. They had no way of knowing just where they were. In the night, the wind had shifted many times. The ship was nowhere to be seen, though debris could be seen in the water. Their stores had been lost, and the first order of business was to see what there was on the island of food and drink.

Leaving Inziladun as comfortable as possible, they scattered to explore the place, some in twos or threes, and some alone.

DO NOT POST YET

[Inziladun]

Some of the crew found things the did not expect.

Three of them had wandered several miles from the shore onto a rocky hilltop. Losing xyr footing, one slipped with a cry down the side of the hill. The other two rushed to the edge and looked down in dismay. They were relieved to see their comrade lying by a crack in the wall near a large boulder, only 10 feet or so below. Their eyes were held by the opening in the rock, for a greenish light appeared to be emanating from it, looking in the dim sunlight almost like a living thing. The two above carefully jumped down, even as the fallen one got to xyr feet. Looking at one another, they passed in soundless agreement past the opening into what appeared to be a large cave. How big it was they could not guess, for the light outside did not reach to its walls, and the green light did not seem to illuminate much. As they looked, dark mists began to swirl around them, forming themselves into man-shaped figures. The three companions were alarmed, but before they could act, the misty figures rushed toward them, and the last sounds they heard were of evil, screeching laughter.

A short time later, three figures emerged from the cave. They looked the same as those who had entered, but the minds inside them had changed. The cave had been a lair of evil spirits of Taur-nu-Fuin, and when the Valar had assailed their lord's fortress of Angband, it had been their refuge. They knew the minds of their prey, and had all their memories. They knew others were here, and after so long with no sport, their thoughts were filled with the desire for carnage. They smiled grimly, as they began to make their way back to the others.

************************************************** *************************************************

Another of the group, having gone in a different direction, found something as well. Xe had walked long, but had found a small stream that would serve for water. While drinking xyr fill, xyr eyes glanced upon a small, green stone by the water's edge. Somehow, the stone gave xem confort, and xe pocketed it. It looked like an elf-stone, and maybe it had been dropped long years before by one of the Eldar in the place, by chance or not. Xe felt somehow that it could aid xem, but something told xem to keep it secret.

************************************************** *************************************************

There was good news, when all had returned to the beach. Not only had water been found, but there were nuts and wild berries growing. Also, some had the knowledge of how to make snares for animals, and all could construct nets to catch fish. They could perhaps survive here long, and perhaps even build some sort of vessel eventually. Some of their tools had been washed ashore, and they took those gladly. As the Sun once again began to sink, they thought at least that things were not as severe as they might be.

************************************************** *************************************************

IT IS NOW NIGHT 1.

Baddies may PM. Seer send a pick.

The living:

Inziladun (Mod)
Bom Tombadillo
Nogrod
Shasta
Kitanna
G55
Sally
Eomer
Nerwen
Loslote
Greenie
Lommy
Nilp
Mithalwen
Legate

[Inziladun]

Night had fallen on the island. After eating what they could find, the stranded crew talked among themselves, of the plans for the coming days and weeks, of how they might use materials there to build some craft that would take at least some of them to the coast of Middle-earth, where they could hope to obtain help from the Eldar. Inziladun was in great pain. The bone had put back into place by one of the crew more skilled in medicine, and the wound washed, but no athelas could be found nearby, and they despaired to find it there. As night grew later, they found themselves places in which to bed down, some on the beach, others farther inland.

************************************************** **************************************************

As one of the crew lay down, xe thought again of the green stone xe had found. Making sure that no one else was near, he took it from xyr pocket and gazed at it. The stone still gave a sense of comfort, and some vague feeling of insight. Xe put the stone away again, and closed xyr eyes.

That night, the most vivid dreams came to xem. A vision of one of xyr mates here on the island came before xem, and it was not only their physical form, but the secrets of xyr heart as well. It was a dream, and yet more, and xe felt certain the stone had called to xem alone.

************************************************** **************************************************

Late in the dark night Inziladun awoke. The pain he felt made it impossible to sleep, and he had dozed only fitfully. Now, though, he felt it was something more than the wounded leg that had awakened him. He lay there motionless, confused, straining his senses. There was sudden movement behind him, and in alarm, he tried to move quickly to his feet, causing a monstrous bolt of pain from his leg. He collapsed back to the ground, sweating and gritting his teeth. But now three figures stood before him, and relief swept him. It was only some of the crew. Laughing bitterly at his own foolishness, he started to ask them if anything was wrong. It was then that a swift blade was drawn, and plunged down in a deadly arc. The dagger pierced his heart, and with his last sight he saw their faces, their eyes now burning red, and he thought he understood, and knew now where his voyage had finished.

************************************************** **************************************************

At the dawn, several of the marooned Númenóreans began to awake. One of the first things on their minds was to check on their fallen captain. When they found him, their cries echoed wildly, and soon all fourteen of them were at his side.
The captain lay dead. Blood covered the body and the ground beside. At the captain's right hand, etched into the sand, were the words "three crew" and "evil". He had apparently been trying to write more when he had succumbed to his injury.
And the Sun rose, lighting the ghastly scene for all to see.

IT IS NOW DAY 1

Cease all Nightly activities. Everyone may now post.

The Living:

Bom Tombadillo
Nogrod
Shasta
Kitanna
G55
Sally
Eomer
Nerwen
Loslote
Greenie
Lommy
Nilp
Mithalwen
Legate


The Dead:

Inziladun (Mod)

[Bom Tombadillo]

*grumbles* Stupid Daylight Savings Time. I've been checking this for an hour already.

[silence]

. . .

[silence]

Um. Please don't kill me, kthxbai?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

All right, now, I have this problem.

Most of you know what I'm about to do. Heck, even probably those people I'm playing with for the first time know what I'm about to do.

You're about to miss DAY 1 again?

Oh, shush, Adam. I thought you were dead.

I won't be 'til you are. So die already.

Right. Anyway, my problem.

How do I make something so banal and predictable seem fresh and exciting once more?

Oh, I know.

Eomer of the Rohirrim, I challenge you to a duel to the death.

At least I get to keep the initiative on my side, right.

Oh, just get it over with.

Not yet, fool. Not yet.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

You forgot to mention that even the spambots know what you're about to do.

Right, thanks Alice.

So how about you just do it? Or do you want me to?

We need drama, okay? A lot of drama.

[satansaloser2005]

++Nilp for representative

[satansaloser2005]

All right then, to business. Here are some facts to keep in mind.

I am an ordo.

I fully intend to win this game.

I have to be done with this game by, if not before, July 6. If we're not done by then, I'll have to withdraw.

I've never withdrawn from a game before. I have no desire to do so now.

If I don't withdraw, I'll have to be killed at some point (or modfired, which also has never happened).

Statistically, if I'm killed as an ordo, the village cannot win. (The only exception to this is a tie.)


Therefore, we need to kill all the werewolves before the sixth. If we don't, we don't win.



Let's get dangerous. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=375ENQbru8s)

[Galadriel55]

I've been counting the minutes to the DL, and decided to play a game of checkers with my sister to waste time. That game - and another and another - was so intense that I completely forgot that I'm just waiting for the DL. :rolleyes::D I'm 50 minutes late. :p

And while I'm here... YAY for my first ever WW post!!!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Interesting points, Sallykins.

Ooh, ooh, I know.

How about we off you now, eh, Wolfie? :p

55th Galadriel, you know what I'm about to do, right? Right?

Oh, brother.

So, what, are we gonna play this game by consensus?

I dunno, Alice; I never got to pick a role.

[Galadriel55]

55th Galadriel, you know what I'm about to do, right? Right?

Turn on the italics thingy. :p ;)

[satansaloser2005]

How about we off you now, eh, Wolfie? :p

After you, my sweet. :Merisu:

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Turn on the italics thingy. :p ;)Hey, hey, this is the first time I've done this in-game, right?

Second for me--I was in Sally's game.

Fourth. That (ugh) 5th WW, the 2nd Duelling Wizards, then the rest with Alice.

I see. You guys show up a lot.

After you, my sweet. :Merisu:No, no, dear, see, whenever we play, you're always evil--yes, even that game where you were the Moddess Goddess.

Therefore, since dice have memories, stored in a supercomputer hidden in some secret location, you, my love, are evil once more.

[satansaloser2005]

Dun didn't use dice. He said so himself.

I'm sorry, my dark prince, but I've clearly caught you in your own web of lies. Care to surrender?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Yes, yes, my dearest, I would desire to find oblivion in your (choking) embrace. :Merisu:

Oh, dear, I'm gonna hurl.

[Kitanna]

I declare shenanigans on Sally and Nilp.

But seriously where is everyone? I guess it's only a few hours in...

Bom: Guilty of talking first
Nilp: Guilty of suffering from a mental break down
Sally: Guilty of aforementioned shenanigans
G55: Guilty of being new to WW
Kit: Guilty of loving puppies
Everyone else: Guilty of silence

[Galadriel55]

Isn't Bom also guilty of being new to WW?

[satansaloser2005]

Isn't Bom also guilty of being new to WW?

Indeed not. He was in my last game. :)

*revels in shenanigans*

[Loslote]

Warning: I had a little bit of caffine today. This is not normal. I do not actually like coffee. I am thus unused to caffine rushes. Ergo, normal Lottie insanity just got worse. Welcome to Day 1. :smokin:

Oh, and this particular theme keeps making me get this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaWU1CmrJNc) in my head. I call being Larry. :D

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I kind of don't even want to post until people have gotten this out of their system, but I am in fact aware the game has started. I'm excited - we've gone too long without a game of WW on the 'Downs.

[Galadriel55]

Indeed not. He was in my last game. :)

Oooops! My bad! *digs through memmory: why didn't I remember that?* Ah, here's the answer! I've been up too late for the past week. *scratches head* That means I should shut up and go to bed.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oooops! My bad! *digs through memmory: why didn't I remember that?* Ah, here's the answer! I've been up too late for the past week. *scratches head* That means I should shut up and go to bed.

I think your sig answers this pretty well. :)

[Mithalwen]

I was really impressed by that til I noticed Galadriel55 no longer had a Russian sig...so much for powers of observation. Glad to see Nilp is behaving entirely normally. For him.. them. Caught mummie a wolf have you? thoughtful boy...:cool:

Anyway need a bit more sleep - love getting woken by light at stupid-o' clock ..later.....

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I declare shenanigans on Sally and Nilp.

But seriously where is everyone? I guess it's only a few hours in...

Bom: Guilty of talking first
Nilp: Guilty of suffering from a mental break down
Sally: Guilty of aforementioned shenanigans
G55: Guilty of being new to WW
Kit: Guilty of loving puppies
Everyone else: Guilty of silenceI take umbrage at your remark!

I don't 'suffer' from a mental break down--I happen to enjoy it.

I was really impressed by that til I noticed Galadriel55 no longer had a Russian sig...so much for powers of observation. Glad to see Nilp is behaving entirely normally. For him.. them. Caught mummie a wolf have you? thoughtful boy...:cool:

Anyway need a bit more sleep - love getting woken by light at stupid-o' clock ..later.....Not behaving entirely normally, mother, I haven't done 'it' yet.

Oh, and coffee is evil. Therefore, Loslote, I take that as a confession.

So here are our known wolves thus far:
Sally
Loslote

Anyone else willing to let slip a little furry confession?

PS. Alice was also in that 2nd Duelling Wizard game, so she has a grand total of three appearances in WW games.

[Bom Tombadillo]

*ahem* It's well known that the first three people to post are the wolves. This means that while I agree with you, Nilp, about Sally being evil, so are you and . . . er . . . me. Um, maybe I should've thought that through more.

By the way, does anybody know whether votes are retractable? If it's in the rules, then I missed it.

If they are, then I'll be voting for DeathWish!Sally until such time as further evidence is presented.

"But she doesn't have a death wish," you say?

If I don't withdraw, I'll have to be killed at some point . . .

You will note that she has not withdrawn, ergo, according to her own (totally not-taken-out-of-context!) words, she will have to be killed.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Of course I'm evil. I thought everyone knew that. :cool:

Whether I am a friend of this impromptu village or not, well, that shall have to remain unknown.

(After all, y'all won't trust me if I told you I'm back to being an Ordo again, would you?)

[Loslote]

(After all, y'all won't trust me if I told you I'm back to being an Ordo again, would you?)

Regardless of role, I'm rather certain you're never ordinary. ;)

[Nerwen]

So... nothing much to report, is there?

We have Nilp and cohorts (by the way, I don't believe I've had the pleasure of Alice's acquaintance) threatening to... let me guess... self-vote?:rolleyes:

We have Sally claiming to be an ordo– which almost counts as a reveal, in a small game like this.

We have Bom Tombadillo stating his intention of voting Sally:


By the way, does anybody know whether votes are retractable? If it's in the rules, then I missed it.

If they are, then I'll be voting for DeathWish!Sally until such time as further evidence is presented.

"But she doesn't have a death wish," you say?

You will note that she has not withdrawn, ergo, according to her own (totally not-taken-out-of-context!) words, she will have to be killed.
If votes were retractable, the rules would have said so (unless Zil wants to come to life to correct me).

Now, here's a question for you, Bom. Obviously, your reason for voting Sally is a joke. What about your intention of voting her as a placeholder candidate? Was that a joke too?

[Mithalwen]

Yeah..I haven't played much since the werewolf procedures were codified but I think fixed votes are the default setting unless I am the mod in which case it is retractable votes and major league hissy fits when they are abused :rolleyes:. So I concur with Nerwen.

Otherwise ..yeah I am glad I spent the past few hours sleeping...
Nilp - evil? *gulp* no you are just err..different.

Well time to get the kettle on and then consider if there is anything more to the posting so far than froth and bubble. Why is Shasta anxious about not posting in it? Was he traumatised by some silliness related incident in WW whatever that has gone down in legend? It just seemed a slightly peculiar thing to say. Excited but reluctant to post .... hmm... maybe just a subtle version of the Day one thing.

[Loslote]

Why is Shasta anxious about not posting in it? Was he traumatised by some silliness related incident in WW whatever that has gone down in legend? It just seemed a slightly peculiar thing to say. Excited but reluctant to post .... hmm... maybe just a subtle version of the Day one thing.

Erm...well, Ordo!Me might have sort of accidentally gotten Seer!Him killed on Day 1 once...but it wasn't all my fault...there was this bandwagon...mostly on his banter posts...yeah that fits your description pretty much. :o

[Mithalwen]

Ah ok then ... right I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now then...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

A word of advice, mum:

1) Listen to your first instincts; and
2) Never listen to known baddies.

The Trio of Evil is complete!
Sally
Loslote
Shasta

Would anyone wish to cast the first vote?

[Loslote]

Would anyone wish to cast the first vote?

Love to, but I'd also love to catch wolves, and I fear there might be a conflict of interest. ;)

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Actually, I would love to, too, but alas! I have a reputation to uphold.

And even were I not so shackled, I would not vote for Sally on DAY 1. And since you made me blush (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657421&postcount=28), I'm disinclined to offer you to the noose, too.

Shasta, be thankful I'm insane!

[Mithalwen]

Well I now ahve a small vat of coffee... but still quiet. I will be out for lunch but hope it will be a bit livelier after. Or is it going to be one of those "Goes frantic in the last hour games". :rolleyes:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

What Lottie said, Mith. As I recall, I was lynched that game for clarifying a rule for someone.

In any case, the only actual game-related thing thus far that I see is Bom and his stated intention to vote Sally "if nothing better comes along", and Nerwen pointing it out, to which I also would like an answer, Bom.

Also, if Nilp is evil, then Mith is too! It's genetic! :p

[Mithalwen]

I knew madness was someting that you inherited from your children but evil? Anyway I refuse to believe my boy is evil were he hanged on the highest hill... :D

Interesting - I usually think not knowing the rules is suspicious - which mean Bom is looking interesting ... rule query, first post and this offer to more or less "mercy lynch" Sally. I have been in games where even one of those was a fast track to the gallows on Day One....Shasta..i am really beginning to understand your nerves! But would also be interested to hear Bom answer Nerwen's question.

I suppose the North Americans are still asleep but I can only assume that the Europeans had a much more exciting and tiring Saturday night than me!

[Galadriel55]

I was really impressed by that til I noticed Galadriel55 no longer had a Russian sig...so much for powers of observation.

At, what it it your time? 2am? If I lose all my powers of observation at about 11pm....

And some other Russian siggy will be up after the game is over. :)

(After all, y'all won't trust me if I told you I'm back to being an Ordo again, would you?)

'Course not! Who puts faith in Ordo-reveals?

Would anyone wish to cast the first vote?

Do you want me to vote you for jumping onto conclusions? There hardly have been any posts! (and come on, Lottie gave you a compliment, and you call her a wolf?! That's not nice!)

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

@ Nerwen: Alice says 'Hi! :) ' (She is, by the way, the sanest of my alter-egos.)

@ Shasta: Can evil be transferred non-genetically, though? She has, as I have once said, motherhood thrust upon her. And since she has not yet left me to the wolves (I think), she is not evil.

@ Galadriel55: I'm a wolf, lynch me pl0x. :p

And although Lottie gets cookies and reps for almost sweeping me off my feet, it must be said that our goal here is to rid our company of evil. And since she has drunk coffee, and coffee is evil, she is most definitely one.

(Mum Mith drank coffee, too, but since the motherhood postulate mentioned above holds, she cannot be evil.)

Since there's a good chance I'll be around before end of DAY, I shall hold my vote (gee, I wonder who I'll vote for? :Merisu: ) 'til then.

/me awaits Nogrod's posts

[Kitanna]

I have to be done with this game by, if not before, July 6. If we're not done by then, I'll have to withdraw.



So we know for sure if we're still a struggling village looking to kill some wolves by the 6th Sally is out. Why bother telling us this? If she's an ordo she can't protect, dream of, or kill anyone. She can only vote. Of course we're out one vote which isn't good, but at this point in the game why bother saying anything?
1) She's a gifted and she wants to ensure her survival so we can get as much use out of her as possible before her inevitable death.
2) She's a wolf and she wants to ensure survival under the guise of innocence by her self-possessed "this village can't win with a dead ordo Sally"
3) She's a foolish villager who has now left herself open for attacks at night.

Sally pretty much signed her own death warrant with that post anyway you look at it, but she wants us all believe we can't win the game as a village without her.

Statistically, if I'm killed as an ordo, the village cannot win. (The only exception to this is a tie.)

And so I declared shenanigans on this idea earlier. If Sally really is innocent, gifted or ordo, there's a good chance the wolves will take advantage and get her in the Night. I doubt she'd be foolish enough to say anything if she was a gifted. I might think the same thing of her being a wolf if she had stopped after saying she had to withdraw on the 6th. The second half of her post looks awfully suspicious to me. Still, there's doubt, it's a bold move to make, especially so early on Day 1 and in such a small game.

Moving on...

If they are, then I'll be voting for DeathWish!Sally until such time as further evidence is presented.
What? Who does that? Mith and Nerwen both commented on this. And I'm inclined to agree this is pretty shifty work. If you're unsure of Sally and are only doing it as a mercy-killing why not wait until Day progresses? Very little had actually been said yet and he's already heading down this road. And more alarming he is only using her to hold a vote until he digs up someone else to vote for.

I can understand suspicions of Sally, but simply killing her because she's going to die seems pretty wolfish. It's almost like "she's admitted she's an ordo, best to get one villager out of the way by Day and another by Night."

So my suspicions lie with Sally and Bom.
If Sally is a wolf she's making a daring move early on. If she's innocent she will probably become a midnight snack. She doesn't want to withdraw and that's understandable. The game has just begun though, perhaps her plea of innocence was premature seeing as at this point it's anyone's game. She has painted a target on herself whether innocent or guilty.

If Bom is guilty he's trying to steer votes to Sally under the guise of a mercy kill to keep conversation of away from him and his cohorts. He's hardly started a bandwagon or anything, but a wolf could keep all eyes on Sally today so the real threat is forgotten. Notice he doesn't say he thinks she's a wolf or an innocent. If he's innocent he was very bold and foolish to suggest voting for Sally just because she had to be gone by the 6th.

[satansaloser2005]

Ah, but you see, dear Kit, if the wolves try to kill me in the Night, they won't be targeting one of the gifteds. So not only have I now made the announcement of when we'll need to win the game by very clear, I've created possible confusion among the wolf pack.

A wolf pack which I now believe you might be a part of, precious.


Ain't life grand?



And now, a list!

Possibly evil (by basis of reacting suspiciously to my post):
Kit
Bom (depending on whether or not he was entirely joking, and even then)
Nerwen (for defending-ish me far too quickly for Nerwen)

Possibly evil (by basis of record):
Nilp
Mith
Nerwen
Kit
Lottie

Possibly evil (by basis of being insane):
Everyone

[Galadriel55]

So we know for sure if we're still a struggling village looking to kill some wolves by the 6th Sally is out. Why bother telling us this? If she's an ordo she can't protect, dream of, or kill anyone. She can only vote. Of course we're out one vote which isn't good, but at this point in the game why bother saying anything?
1) She's a gifted and she wants to ensure her survival so we can get as much use out of her as possible before her inevitable death.
2) She's a wolf and she wants to ensure survival under the guise of innocence by her self-possessed "this village can't win with a dead ordo Sally"
3) She's a foolish villager who has now left herself open for attacks at night.

You failed to notice (or purposely ignored) the fact that one ordo can make a difference in the outcome simply by being alive.

I don't think that Sally would have endangered herself that much in her first post if she has a special role. However, I see what you mean about Bom. He's really pushing a sallywagon, or trying to.

Kit is #2 on my suspision list, for saying that Bom is pushing a sallywagon and pushing it herself yet further.

Sally pretty much signed her own death warrant with that post anyway you look at it, but she wants us all believe we can't win the game as a village without her.

But no wolf will kill her after your post! That would be so obvious! The only explanation I could come up with is that you are a wolf who speaks while plotting who will be the first victim. And you're debating about Bom to make yourself look unconnected to him.

Very likely of being baddies:
-Bom
-Kit

Edit: xed with Sally

[satansaloser2005]

There are only eight hours left in the Day, people! Let's get cracking!

[Mithalwen]

At, what it it your time? 2am? If I lose all my powers of observation at about 11pm....



I think it was half four - I had fallen asleep waiting for the update on the sick penguin (in NZ not Lommie). We are on summer time which threw me.,.. But it means dead line is 1 am so I may have to vote a bit early lest I once again lapse into a hoglike swoon at the crucial moment. Maybe the sheer excitement will keep me awake but at the moment .......

[Galadriel55]

I'm so confused with the time zones. I'm supposed to be in -5 but with all the daylight savings and whatever it's -4... BD should have a clock independant of all the time differences!

There are only eight hours left in the Day, people! Let's get cracking!

Don't put off posting until the last hour! :p

Sheesh, I thought this thread will be more active...

[satansaloser2005]

DL is in about seven hours, my good lad....y. :)

[Galadriel55]

DL is in about seven hours, my good lad....y. :)

I figured out when it is my time, but it's beyond me to convert it to other people's time.

[satansaloser2005]

I figured out when it is my time, but it's beyond me to convert it to other people's time.

Ah, gotcha. I'm a lot the same way. I set a secondary clock on my laptop to the Downs time so it's easier to convert it, if that helps. *shrugs* Time zones are silly.

[Mithalwen]

Galadriel, you might want to change your time zone for the downs then via options on the control panel - if you scroll down from the invisible option there is a box ot choose time zones. Either pick GMT and set the DST (daylight saving time) option to off. THen the posts on the Downs will show WW time (and your computer clock will keep you straight for your actual time). The only way I coped with Time zone changes in the States was to have a dual time watch with one set to UK time to keep something constant.

Could it be that all of extended Clan Nogrod have mixed up the midnights? I don't use 24hr clock much so I had to check myself ..... A lot can happen quicky though...they will probably all rush on at once and I'll go to make a cup of tea and find 5 pages to read on my return. So good weekend everyone?:rolleyes:

[A Little Green]

Since the Sally-Bom-business is pretty much the only thing of substance discussed, I think I'll add my two cents on that before (hopefully) moving on to other matters.

All right then, to business. Here are some facts to keep in mind.

I am an ordo.

I fully intend to win this game.

I have to be done with this game by, if not before, July 6. If we're not done by then, I'll have to withdraw.

I've never withdrawn from a game before. I have no desire to do so now.

If I don't withdraw, I'll have to be killed at some point (or modfired, which also has never happened).

Statistically, if I'm killed as an ordo, the village cannot win. (The only exception to this is a tie.)


Therefore, we need to kill all the werewolves before the sixth. If we don't, we don't win.I'm not sure if I get all she's saying but her tone strikes me as more innocent than not.

*ahem* It's well known that the first three people to post are the wolves. This means that while I agree with you, Nilp, about Sally being evil, so are you and . . . er . . . me. Um, maybe I should've thought that through more.

By the way, does anybody know whether votes are retractable? If it's in the rules, then I missed it.

If they are, then I'll be voting for DeathWish!Sally until such time as further evidence is presented.

"But she doesn't have a death wish," you say?
If I don't withdraw, I'll have to be killed at some point . . .
You will note that she has not withdrawn, ergo, according to her own (totally not-taken-out-of-context!) words, she will have to be killed.This strikes me as more fishy than Sally's "ordo reveal". Might sound odd, but the only thing that makes me doubt his guilt is how many people suspect him.

We have Sally claiming to be an ordo– which almost counts as a reveal, in a small game like this.

We have Bom Tombadillo stating his intention of voting Sally

If votes were retractable, the rules would have said so (unless Zil wants to come to life to correct me).

Now, here's a question for you, Bom. Obviously, your reason for voting Sally is a joke. What about your intention of voting her as a placeholder candidate? Was that a joke too?Unless I missed something, Nerwen is the first to comment the issue. She takes a very neutral tone, summarising what the two had done and asking a clarification from Bom. Careful.

In any case, the only actual game-related thing thus far that I see is Bom and his stated intention to vote Sally "if nothing better comes along", and Nerwen pointing it out, to which I also would like an answer, Bom.Shasta pretty much echoes Nerwen, not taking sides, either.

Interesting - I usually think not knowing the rules is suspicious - which mean Bom is looking interesting ... rule query, first post and this offer to more or less "mercy lynch" Sally. I have been in games where even one of those was a fast track to the gallows on Day One....Shasta..i am really beginning to understand your nerves! But would also be interested to hear Bom answer Nerwen's question.Mith is the second to press Bom to answer Nerwen. While I am of the opinion that neither knowing or not knowing the rules can be taken as a sign of wolvery, I can't really quarrel with Mith's conclusion (=Bom is looking interesting).

Then we have Kit's novel on Sally and Bom. I'm not going to quote it in full, but rather extracts I found interesting.

So we know for sure if we're still a struggling village looking to kill some wolves by the 6th Sally is out. Why bother telling us this? If she's an ordo she can't protect, dream of, or kill anyone. She can only vote. Of course we're out one vote which isn't good, but at this point in the game why bother saying anything?
1) She's a gifted and she wants to ensure her survival so we can get as much use out of her as possible before her inevitable death.
2) She's a wolf and she wants to ensure survival under the guise of innocence by her self-possessed "this village can't win with a dead ordo Sally"
3) She's a foolish villager who has now left herself open for attacks at night.

Sally pretty much signed her own death warrant with that post anyway you look at it, but she wants us all believe we can't win the game as a village without her.I'm inclined to agree with the first half of that last sentence. I'm not as sure of her three options regarding Sally's role. 1) Why speculate aloud about someone possibly being Gifted? 2) Possible, I guess. Not what I'd expect a Sallywolf to say, but the logic is sound. 3) Like Sally herself said, later on: an ordo dead by Night means no Gifted killed that same Night. An ordo is open for attacks at Night in any case.
If Sally really is innocent, gifted or ordo, there's a good chance the wolves will take advantage and get her in the Night. I doubt she'd be foolish enough to say anything if she was a gifted. I might think the same thing of her being a wolf if she had stopped after saying she had to withdraw on the 6th. The second half of her post looks awfully suspicious to me. Still, there's doubt, it's a bold move to make, especially so early on Day 1 and in such a small game. This paragraph makes more or less sense. I don't agree about the second half of Sally's post looking suspicious, but I can see how it could look that way.

If they are, then I'll be voting for DeathWish!Sally until such time as further evidence is presented.
What? Who does that? Mith and Nerwen both commented on this. And I'm inclined to agree this is pretty shifty work. If you're unsure of Sally and are only doing it as a mercy-killing why not wait until Day progresses? Very little had actually been said yet and he's already heading down this road. And more alarming he is only using her to hold a vote until he digs up someone else to vote for.

I can understand suspicions of Sally, but simply killing her because she's going to die seems pretty wolfish. It's almost like "she's admitted she's an ordo, best to get one villager out of the way by Day and another by Night." I more or less agree with Kit in this.
If Bom is guilty he's trying to steer votes to Sally under the guise of a mercy kill to keep conversation of away from him and his cohorts. He's hardly started a bandwagon or anything, but a wolf could keep all eyes on Sally today so the real threat is forgotten. Notice he doesn't say he thinks she's a wolf or an innocent. If he's innocent he was very bold and foolish to suggest voting for Sally just because she had to be gone by the 6th.
So basically, you suspect that either Sally or Bom is evil, but not both?

Ah, but you see, dear Kit, if the wolves try to kill me in the Night, they won't be targeting one of the gifteds. So not only have I now made the announcement of when we'll need to win the game by very clear, I've created possible confusion among the wolf pack.

A wolf pack which I now believe you might be a part of, precious.

And now, a list!

Possibly evil (by basis of reacting suspiciously to my post):
Kit
Bom (depending on whether or not he was entirely joking, and even then)
Nerwen (for defending-ish me far too quickly for Nerwen)I'm not sure here. I'm inclined to find Sally innocent, but I'd be leaning that way on Kit too. As for Nerwen, I wouldn't call her post even defending-ish of Sally. To me, it looked careful and decidedly neutral.

You failed to notice (or purposely ignored) the fact that one ordo can make a difference in the outcome simply by being alive.

I don't think that Sally would have endangered herself that much in her first post if she has a special role. However, I see what you mean about Bom. He's really pushing a sallywagon, or trying to.I agree with all but the last sentence here. Pushing a Sallywagon? A single post declaring an intent to vote somebody if nothing better appears doesn't equal bandwagon in my book.
Kit is #2 on my suspision list, for saying that Bom is pushing a sallywagon and pushing it herself yet further.I don't think Kit's reason for suspecting Bom was that he considered voting Sally, but the reasons he had for it (mainly the "mercy kill" idea).

Sally pretty much signed her own death warrant with that post anyway you look at it, but she wants us all believe we can't win the game as a village without her.
But no wolf will kill her after your post! That would be so obvious! The only explanation I could come up with is that you are a wolf who speaks while plotting who will be the first victim. And you're debating about Bom to make yourself look unconnected to him.So in summary we have Nerwen and Shasta commenting on the issue while remaining neutral, Mith voicing slight suspicion on Bom, Kit suspecting both Sally and Bom are wolves but not together, and Galadriel more or less accusing both Bom and Kit, while Sally herself suspects both Kit and Bom. My brain hurts.


EDIT: x-ed with the lovely ladies Galadriel, Sally and Mith

[Nogrod]

Well not a very good weekend actually. But anyway. I'm now in and have read through the chatting.

Just a quick one for the deadline. Just check post #4 in this thread which has it in with capital letters that day one starts now. It has been sent four minutes before the exact deadline. Then just store into your minnd which the hour is, and you don't need dual-time clocks or anything of the sort.

I do know it is 3AM here - and that I will most probably vote a bit early as I need to wake up at decent hours tomorrow to go to hospital and have my operation-cut taken care of (I need to do that daily...).

Delving back into the thread now.

[Galadriel55]

Thank you for the clock suggestion!

Could it be that all of extended Clan Nogrod have mixed up the midnights?

And Eomer and Legate?

There's just over 6 hours left. Incredible! There are hardly any WW-related posts. (That made me think: ww games are probably the only threds that are allowed to get chatty.)

Edit: xed with Nog and Greenie

[A Little Green]

There's just over 6 hours left. Incredible! There are hardly any WW-related posts. (That made me think: ww games are probably the only threds that are allowed to get chatty.)I see what you mean! I suppose the first few posts of any game kind of have to be nonsense if there's nothing about the rules or something such that needs to be discussed. However, the amount of chatter is sometimes a bit too much. (Especially from the perspective of someone who's going to have to vote in an hour or so in order to get a decent night's sleep before work tomorrow..)

[Nogrod]

It also depends on a game. Sometimes Day1's are just more or less chat and a rushed last-minute vote (normally lynching an innocent as the wolves around the DL know where to steer it if they need to), but there have been also spectacular D1's where there has been multiple rows, built-up cases and at best beatufilly made wolf-lynchings in the ned of the Day.

This sadly seems to be one of the former kind... (and yes, it is partly my fault as well)

But don't worry G55, These hours from here (or starting at an hour from this) to around the DL are usually the busiest; that's called afternoon in Americas and late-evening / early night in Europe. So this will get a lot busier before the Day ends.

[Mithalwen]

Thank you for the clock suggestion!



And Eomer and Legate?

[/B]

Only Eomer is out of that circle. There was a warning from Lommie that Legate might be a late starter on admin thread ..anyway academic now since some of them have arrived. So maybe the serious stuff will start to happen.

[Galadriel55]

I agree with all but the last sentence here. Pushing a Sallywagon? A single post declaring an intent to vote somebody if nothing better appears doesn't equal bandwagon in my book.

Well, maybe I misinterpreted Bom's post, but he seemed to give the message "let's vote for Sally unless there's an obvious wolf, because she might drop out". Doesn't it sound more fishy when put that way?

...Galadriel more or less accusing both Bom and Kit...

Well, maybe not really accusing, but strongly suspecting and keeping an eye out. There still isn't much info to really base an accusation on, but enough to have a suspicion. If in my reply to Kit I made it sound like a direct accusation, I didn't intend to, and blame it on my little brother who was reading what I typed over my shoulder and kept shouting questions in my ear like "why are you talking about wolves?" and all kinds of other nonesense.

I still have the impression that Sally is innocent. Kit and Bom don't make a lot of sense to me. Bom - for reasons above, and Kit - for saying "Bom is up to something but I agree with him" in a less exaggerated form.

Now that I think about it more, it's unlikely that they both are baddies. Kit wouldn't set so many arguments against him (with which personally I agree) if he was her packmate. It's too much of a risk.

Edit: xed since my last post

[Kitanna]

I agree with all but the last sentence here. Pushing a Sallywagon? A single post declaring an intent to vote somebody if nothing better appears doesn't equal bandwagon in my book.


It isn't a bandwagon, but he certainly pushed Sally to the front with his declaration (joke or not) to vote for Sally based on her second post. Like I said earlier this could be a way to get the village to look away from others and focus in on one person. It could also be a joke that no one got.

And Greenie you mentioned I suspect both Sally and Bom, but that I believe it's one or the other. I can't see any advantage for two wolves to be making a declaration that they'd be killed, modfired, withdrawn by the 6th AND to have a fellow wolf bring up the idea of killing them based on that.

I think Bom looks worse. No one has really spoken today and so little has any substance. If I could vote for everyone isn't being helpful or at least trying to add I'd vote for most everyone who has spoken. This quiet village is making it hard to formulate any real opinions. And for now I stand by mine.

People have said I look wolfish for what I've said about Sally. I'm grasping at straws to get the ball rolling, so whatever. I still don't know if I believe she's innocent. My biggest problem is she did this in-game rather than on the admin thread and she seems utterly self-possessed. If this game had a cobbler I'd say it was Sally. She claims her actions can confuse the wolves, but I see it can be confusing for the village too.

I doubt I'll vote for Sally today. I don't trust her, but Bom looks worse for his actions.

I will be leaving my house in two or three hours and I don't have any assurances I will be near a computer to vote closer to the DL. I'd love to see more, but if there's a flood of conversation I'll be just as lost as I am now when it's time for me to go for the day.

[satansaloser2005]

And now that I've sparked discussion, I think I'll vanish for a bit. I should be back in an hour or two, and then I'll be around until the end of the Day.

Do continue to be interesting while I'm gone, won't you?


X'd with Kit

[Galadriel55]

And now that I've sparked discussion, I think I'll vanish for a bit. I should be back in an hour or two, and then I'll be around until the end of the Day.

Do continue to be interesting while I'm gone, won't you?

You sure like being the center of attention! ;)

[Galadriel55]

Kit, I see what you mean about Sally being cobblerish - the "center of attention". But she does not sound like a wolf.

[A Little Green]

Well, maybe I misinterpreted Bom's post, but he seemed to give the message "let's vote for Sally unless there's an obvious wolf, because she might drop out". Doesn't it sound more fishy when put that way?Of course it does. I don't know if we can talk of misinterpretation, in your case or in mine, but rather of differing interpretations. The way I read Bom's post, he was not necessarily suggesting others follow his course of action - indeed, he seemed to expect others to object to it - but rather just stating what he was going to do. Which of course doesn't mean what he was going to do wasn't fishy per se. Fishy and bandwagoning don't necessarily equal each other. Oh dear. I'm flip-flopping enough to make my sister proud. :rolleyes:

Well, maybe not really accusing, but strongly suspecting and keeping an eye out. There still isn't much info to really base an accusation on, but enough to have a suspicion. If in my reply to Kit I made it sound like a direct accusation, I didn't intend to, and blame it on my little brother who was reading what I typed over my shoulder and kept shouting questions in my ear like "why are you talking about wolves?" and all kinds of other nonesense.Yes, accusing was probably too forceful a word. Your suspicion, however, seemed rather stronger than, say, Mith's, which is why I applied a different term. (Also, I think little brothers are cute, but maybe that's because I've never had one. :p)


EDIT: x-ed with 2xGaladriel

[Mithalwen]

I think Bom looks worse. No one has really spoken today and so little has any substance. If I could vote for everyone isn't being helpful or at least trying to add I'd vote for most everyone who has spoken. This quiet village is making it hard to formulate any real opinions. And for now I stand by mine.

I doubt I'll vote for Sally today. I don't trust her, but Bom looks worse for his actions.
.

Not speaking at all is hardly helpful either. I would prefer a bit of chat to silence or even a lot of regurgitation. At least you get what someone says for themself rather than trying to look helpful but not actually saying anything.

I don't know what Sally is playing at though. It is ten days til she says she has to go and in a game this size it is unlikely to be an issue. And apart from the ethics of participating in a game knowing you may not be able to see it through, I can't see any benefit of drawing attention to it so far in advance. I may be being thick but I can't see it being a helpful tactic for any role we have in the game. A hunter needs to get themselves killed to fulfil their purpose but we don't have one and it would be impossible for a Hunter to be in a position to make a good call that early in the game.

[satansaloser2005]

You sure like being the center of attention! ;)

Well yes, but I also hate wasted Day Ones, especially when I'm on a short leash time-wise. People are talking, and formulating ideas about what I meant, and generally leaving evidence for us to use later. I'd say that's far from cobblerish, dear. It's called being proactive.


To clarify, my point about Kit looking fishy is completely legit. Her posts smell funny to me.

I'm not willing to vote Bom toDay, but I'll be keeping an eye on him simply because I can.

Mith also looks strange, but it might just be the fact that she's trying to tear myself and my dark prince apart. Harrumph.

I'd have to consider everyone else further before voting them.

(I just realized it was a bit rude of me to not clarify my suspicions before I left, especially since the Finns and Co. likely will have to vote soon.)


Walking out the door now. Tick tock, little ones....

[A Little Green]

I'm off to bed pretty much now, meaning that I get to cast the first vote of the Day! I'm not sure about this, but it being the best shot I have,

++ Bom

I think I've explained enough in my previous posts, but in short - planning to vote Sally because of her "death wish" strikes me as an idea that benefits the baddies more than us.

[Mithalwen]

I look strange? How rude. But nevertheless I don't post pictures of myself online to prevent widespread trauma...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Hullo all. :)

Looks like we have a careful village, with no-one really interested in throwing a cat among the pigeons. Even Nilp's fishing expedition is lacking in effect. :p

But I would not despair, and instead advise that one can't get something from nothing, so to speak: talk for the sake of it is just that, and unhelpful (to me, at least).

The discussion on the first day is rarely any use as it happens; its chief merit is as a record on which to look back. So to see all the usual hand-wringing about our effectiveness at this stage in the investigation is amusing and possibly telling.

[Mithalwen]

If there are no pigeons is there any point in throwing a cat? Time for a little drinkie

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

G55 has defended Sally about three times! Sally was also quick to suspect Kitanna once Kit had made a case against her. And that whole Ordo-claim - Sally always looks like a cobbler to me at the best of times. :p

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

If there are no pigeons is there any point in throwing a cat? Time for a little drinkie

Overruled, Mith. There were pigeons and, what's more, the promise of pigeons yet to appear.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, I am here. Sorry for the late start, but I've had a lot to cope with (including sleeping for 13 hours tonight after two exhausting weeks and one night at the airport). But here I am and will try to make something out of the rest of toDay...

So, after the initial "lot of nonsense" stuff, the point where I think people are starting to become serious, and the things they say seeming to become worth something, comes about at the close to the first page. So let me comment on the few noteworthy things, and hopefully later post something about what I think about people this far:

So we know for sure if we're still a struggling village looking to kill some wolves by the 6th Sally is out. Why bother telling us this? If she's an ordo she can't protect, dream of, or kill anyone. She can only vote. Of course we're out one vote which isn't good, but at this point in the game why bother saying anything?
I don't see a problem with Sally saying that, since I have been at some point also unsure about my participation in the future, and if I was, I would see no problem in saying that, regardless of my role. So I don't see it a problem.

What TomBom said about that, like Kitanna pointed out, is a bit suspicious, but then again, who knows - he is a newbie and who knows what he thinks. Kitanna might also be a Wolf herself and trying to point out a target for the village to lynch (be it Sally or Tom).

Of the people, if I should name some who are standing out, Gal looks quite, well, reasonable. All her posts this far I like. Of course, she might be just a very well-polished Wolf. But given that there is no back-reference since this is her first game, I am not going to think that suspicious for now, but take it as it is - seeming well.

I will post my thoughts about others further on...

EDIT: x-posted with the Knight in Warg armour (for newbies: Eomer) since his apperance, and further...

[satansaloser2005]

I look strange? How rude. But nevertheless I don't post pictures of myself online to prevent widespread trauma...

Figuratively speaking, of course, dear one.

And I repeat the part where Mith is guilty by reason of insanity. Are you trying to make some sort of point here? (If I wasn't on my phone, I'd post a picture of me looking all sweet and innocent. As it is, I'm too lazy.) ;)

My plans seem to have changed; I'll be around for another half hour. I think I'll poke about.


X'd since the appearance of Eomer

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The jump on Bom is bewildering.

[satansaloser2005]

The jump on Bom is bewildering.

I know, right? I could understand a bit of suspicion (as so many jokes are simply smoke screens for evil) but to vote him based on so little? I'm unimpressed.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

General list:

Bom Tombadillo - might be trying to make an easy lynch out of sally, but then again, he is a newbie, who knows how his thought processes go. Therefore, he will get a newbie pass from me toDay.
Nogrod - I don't have clear idea about him yet, hope to see more posts from him.
Shasta - has not contributed much anything to base judgement upon.
Kitanna - raising suspicions with, in my opinion, grounds which are not really worth of suspicion, but then again, maybe she just has bad standards for suspecting people and not meaning evil intentionally.
G55 - reasonable this far, and in any case, also a newbie pass for her toDay.
Sally - I don't see her suspicious. I don't have much more info on her, though, but I certainly wouldn't suspect her based on what several others seem to.
Eomer - despite appearing, didn't say anything worth much. I think that's a problem of rather many people this far.
Nerwen - questionmark. Thoughtful as usual, but of course there might be some sinister thoughts behind that mask, so who knows.
Loslote - nothing to base any thoughts on, again one of those I would like to see more from.
Greenie - had posted a nice summary, but too long. For some reason, I get uneasy feeling from her, but hard to say.
Lommy - not appeared yet
Nilp - this far only schizophrenic stuff, so that's not worth much
Mithalwen - she had a few times been commenting on suspicions raised by confirming them (like "yes, I agree sally is odd" and "TomBom is strange - he does not know rules"-see below), which might be a typical Wolfy attitude (i.e. you are picking on suspicions which are lying around to simply blend with the crowd) and she had backed away from questioning Shasta, which might be being a bit of "Ms. Agreeable" - but of course, maybe it was also just related to the amount of sleep/coffee/time/whatever she had and nothing was intended by it. Half of her posts are "administratory" anyway and without much content (referring to what is the time, who is posting and such), so it's hard to tell.

All in all, I don't have any very strong suspect this far. I at most know people I know I don't want to vote (at least now), which is also good by itself. But I will read and think.

Random question:

Interesting - I usually think not knowing the rules is suspicious - which mean Bom is looking interesting ... rule query, first post and this offer to more or less "mercy lynch" Sally.
Why do you think not knowing the rules is suspicious? I would think the opposite - WWs especially really have to read the rules, so that they can operate properly. (Although, in my opinion, everybody should read the rules carefully to be able to operate properly in his or her own role - even ordos, so that they can judge well what's going on and what are the options... but for WWs and Gifteds it is necessary, because e.g. you cannot play a Ranger without knowing how this role works, and a Wolf should know that as well, so that they know how they should plan their Night-kills in regards to there being other roles which can hinder them and so on...)

[Thinlómien]

Hiya, sorry for the late appearance but I first overslept, then attended a planned meeting and lastly got ambushed by unexpected complications, however I'm now here and have read the thread. I have very little to say atm, I'm very confused and it's way too long since I last played for my brain to be properly on the ww mode. Maybe I will make a list to clarify my thoughts...

[Nogrod]

Sorry about my disappearance but I have been talking to the phone / skype the last two hours (we have some unhappy things going on here within my family - that's the reason I said it was not such a good weekend, but enough of that as it is not WW-relatd, just for you to know why I have been a bit erratic toDay).

Before this calling-round began I was about to post that neither Sally or Bom look that suspicious to me but that especially those who are trying to "confirm them" as lynch candidates (not especially those who notice something first, but those supporting without a lot to add themselves) are the ones I'd rather vote for. I'll have to check that, as to who did what back there.

On another quick note. As I just skimmed through what had happened the last I find it odd Greenie makes some sense saying that what Bom said looked more like "this is what I'm going to do unless there is a better option" and not "there is our wolf, let's lynch her together now". But then she went on and voted for him.

I have to check that original by Bom as well as a few others untill I say more or make any more observations (getting the facts straight first).

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Legate of Amon Lanc;657503]General list:

Why do you think not knowing the rules is suspicious? I would think the opposite - WWs especially really have to read the rules, so that they can operate properly. QUOTE]

Well for exactly that reason of course!!! So if you make a show of not knowing the rules I think it may be a wolf trying to created the impression of innocence "I don't know hte rules so I can't be anyone important". It proved ot be the case a few times back in the day so it was to me worth commenting on..it isn't a sophisticated strategy I admit.. but at that stage of the day there wasn't an awful lot to go on.

As for Shasta - the opening post was so odd I felt there had to be some history so I asked and was satisfied, for the time being. So far so werewolf.......

[Kitanna]

I was prepared to leave the Sally suspicions alone. Intentionally I was confused and suspicious that in her second post she said she'd have to withdraw on the 6th. It seemed too early and inappropriate for that. I outlined some of the ideas on had on the subject. I focused on Bom because he seemed eager to be rid of Sally, not because she was suspicious but because of what she had said. This of course made Sally look more innocent and cast Bom in a negative light.

The more Sally speaks though, the more I wonder. She's just rambled for a lot of posts.
Ah, but you see, dear Kit, if the wolves try to kill me in the Night, they won't be targeting one of the gifteds. So not only have I now made the announcement of when we'll need to win the game by very clear, I've created possible confusion among the wolf pack.
No it doesn't. I'd say this creates more confusion in the village. If you are innocent then they either A) attack you to lessen the innocent votes or B) Leave you be. Saying you have to withdraw doesn't create too much confusion for them. The village likewise has the option to A) Lynch you or B) Let you live. Unlike the wolves we can't be sure if you're what you say.

I see it as more you're trying to confuse us. You've revealed yourself as an ordo, people rarely believe that. The only way we can be sure is if you die or the seer dreams of you and clears you. A seer reveal now would be reckless to say the least...and back to my point. You want us to take your word by saying how important you are to the winning effort, but what have you done to help?

There are only eight hours left in the Day, people! Let's get cracking!
Yes..let's...
DL is in about seven hours, my good lad....y.
Well yes, but I also hate wasted Day Ones, especially when I'm on a short leash time-wise. People are talking, and formulating ideas about what I meant, and generally leaving evidence for us to use later. I'd say that's far from cobblerish, dear. It's called being proactive.
Sounds cobberlish to me. But cobberlish doesn't matter seeing as we have none in the game.
To clarify, my point about Kit looking fishy is completely legit. Her posts smell funny to me.
How is that legit? Most posts I've seen are fishy and that includes yours. That doesn't clarify anything.

Before this calling-round began I was about to post that neither Sally or Bom look that suspicious to me but that especially those who are trying to "confirm them" as lynch candidates (not especially those who notice something first, but those supporting without a lot to add themselves) are the ones I'd rather vote for. I'll have to check that, as to who did what back there.
I am fully ready to risk my life because the more I look at Sally the more I think she's up to no good. She's calling for talk, for ideas, but isn't providing any, rather she's hiding behind random accusations and silly posts. Her second post is all too convenient for me to accept as innocent. Intentionally it meant very little to me, but then when I reread the thread I started to wonder. Nothing Sally has said makes me think she's any less suspicious. I realize being so foolish and bold will probably get me killed. It's a risk I'm willing to take. If Sally is innocent I'll eat my own hat.

[Nogrod]

Okay. That Bom's post (#26) is an interesting case indeed.

First there is this joke about the first three posters being naturally the werewolves (including himself, with Nilp and Sally) - when did this folklore went astray? I think the original claim was that a werewolves will post within the first ones as they're happy to play and get involved (which made sense, at least back then), then it knid of turned into a ww being amidst the first three and / or that the first poster is a ww... Well this version of Bom's is new to me, getting ever farther from something that originally had an idea. :confused:

Be the history of the saying what it may, the point here is he starts with this joking mode (including himself as a wolf).

Then he makes the clause: if there are retrackies, he will vote for "deatwish!Sally, until such time as further evidence is presented."

Now this to me looks more like innocent talk (added with the beginning-joke) than crafty wolvery.

But then he goes on to slightly "improve" his case against Sally with his interesting take on logic which I find hard to interpret as to whether it is in a total joke mode or is he actually trying to persuade people with it?


All in all, I'm still reluctant to vote for Bom just for that, and because this is his first/second game(?).

If there is no reaally suspicious person to vote I'd rather go to those who try to be really neat and unprovoking, careful, easy, non-commitant, unnoticed, low, behind a mask, only bantering... whatever.

[Nogrod]

The way Kit posts is the reason I don't want her to get lynched. Actually I'm a bit jealous right now as she does what I tend to be doing normally. But I'm a bit out of energy right now and am not able to raise to her level of really going into it. I hope I will do better the next Days if alive.

But also I think there is an interesting discrepancy between the level of thought by the analyser and the analysed. I think Sally went on her own carefree manner making an early post she didn't think was nothing serious but just something to toy with while repeating her info about her situation in a jokeful manner. Then Kit makes this "serious-player move" (which I tend to do oftentimes myself - and which people should start doing on D2 the latest, everyone) analysing that post's indications into all their variable conclusions just over-analysing it into pieces Sally probably never had thought of herself (even if she was a baddie). :rolleyes:

In a sloppy Day like this I think Kit is the last one to be lynched. We need more players like her, not less.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well for exactly that reason of course!!! So if you make a show of not knowing the rules I think it may be a wolf trying to created the impression of innocence "I don't know hte rules so I can't be anyone important". It proved ot be the case a few times back in the day so it was to me worth commenting on..it isn't a sophisticated strategy I admit.. but at that stage of the day there wasn't an awful lot to go on.
Oh yes, I see. Well, I wouldn't say however that it was a "show" - it was related to some votes and it seemed like a rather random addendum. In my opinion, making a show of not knowing the rules would look different - more like "hey, so tell me please, how was it with the Ranger, actually?" Or whatever... But anyway, I see now where you were coming from.

The more Sally speaks though, the more I wonder. She's just rambled for a lot of posts.
Well, I think that really goes for very many people around here, and so I don't see it applying to Sally in particular in any case. Although other things you say about sally might be more valid, possibly, but generally I am not really that much suspecting her.

Update on Nog - he seems more like his innocent self this far, I think (this sort of threatening-y, "I have some clear ideas of what is right and what is wrong and now I shall explain to you"-type of posting).

[Nogrod]

(this sort of threatening-y, "I have some clear ideas of what is right and what is wrong and now I shall explain to you"-type of posting).Hey! :rolleyes:

Maybe I'm on a "detached senior statesman mood" today? :)

But to be honest, no, I don't have any clear ideas on what's right or wrong, but I do see some patterns emerging that take place time and time again. Like that people will stuck into talking about the first one or two people the talk starts revolving around and in the end there's little other possibilities but to vote them as nothing else has been discussed.

I mean if there is something really suspicious that starts the discussion, then that is just fair, but most often that is not the case and an innocent gets lynched because of these game-dynamics.

Which is not to say I think or know that Sally and/or Bom are innocents. They just feel more like it than not at the moment.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

*ahem* It's well known that the first three people to post are the wolves. This means that while I agree with you, Nilp, about Sally being evil, so are you and . . . er . . . me. Um, maybe I should've thought that through more.

By the way, does anybody know whether votes are retractable? If it's in the rules, then I missed it.

If they are, then I'll be voting for DeathWish!Sally until such time as further evidence is presented.

"But she doesn't have a death wish," you say?



You will note that she has not withdrawn, ergo, according to her own (totally not-taken-out-of-context!) words, she will have to be killed.

There's the post in question. I can't believe how much attention it's garnered; and I would also say that if it was made by a regular player everyone would skip over it. The last line is, to my mind at least, pretty funny.

[satansaloser2005]

If Sally is innocent I'll eat my own hat.

As long as you don't eat mine. I'm quite fond of it.


The thing that bothers me about Kit is that she flip flops on me, first calling my post rather innocent and then (in her most recent post) saying that I'm likely guilty because of how I'm handling myself. You can't have it both ways, dear, and while I agree that Bom's reaction to my post could point to guilt, it could just as easily be a joke.

Perhaps it's just that I'm having a long day, but I think Kit's grasping at straws. Well, I suppose I shouldn't say grasping at straws, but she's putting a LOT of stock in what I've already said was a social experiment. (Granted, the statements I made in that post were true, but I made them in such a way that people would have little choice but to respond to them, thus allowing me to gauge their reactions and, as a result, their guilt.) Then again, it's Day One, and all the suspicion of Bom is based on equally unsound reasons, so whatever.


I have a duck talking to me. I should probably deal with that. ;)


x'd since....since Nog's post about Bom, which I'll get to in a bit

[satansaloser2005]

Nog, just because someone posts regularly/in a way you fancy doesn't mean they're innocent. I understand your desire to keep good posters around, but I can think of many games where that logic (or the reverse, for that matter) cost the innocents a victory. Innocence or guilt is what matters, not how pretty your posts are.

[Loslote]

I'm here! And I have First Impressions. :D

Sally is probably my dear sweet cupcake, and I would not like to lynch her toDay at all.

Bom is a dear sweet newish player who, from what little he's posted, sounds like last game when he was innocent. I'd like to leave him be, too.

Galadriel's posts hit me over the head a little like a baby fish, but it's her first game ever, so she gets a newbie pass out of the category of "say what now".

Kit's post I saw and instantly "whaaaaaaat"ed because I forgot she was playing in this game. But I don't know how to read her yet, I just wanted to mention that.

The rest of you I've got no real impressions on yet. More noise-making, please! ;)

Edit: Xed with two Sallys

[Thinlómien]

Bom Tombadillo - creating a lot of controversy. I don't know what to make of his fishy jump on Sally, but on the whole it feels more like a new player attracting suspicion in the oh-so-typical newbie manner...

Nogrod - seems to be making sense this far, but seems a little uptight and cautious - but I'm ready to attribute that to RL stuff for the time being.

Shasta - says little, ergo I can say little about him.

Kitanna - for once, I don't quite get where all the Kitanna-suspicion is coming from. I don't necessarily agree with everything she says, but she seems sensible enough. I wouldn't like to lynch her toDay - it would be a poor thanks for beasically keep the discussion going on toDay.

G55 - wouldn't believe it's her first game, she's so sharp. Can't say if she's good or evil though.

Sally - well, I can't see why she has been made such a fuss of toDay. I'm more inclined to think she's innocent than not (I seem to recall she only makes such a show of her innocence when she's innocent) but of course this is not foolproof reasoning.

Eomer - no idea yet. Seems annoyingly self-confident but that's just typical I guess. :p

Nerwen - can't recall anything she said, which is a little worrisome.

Loslote - see above, except that I recall her flirting with Nilp. ;)

Greenie - seems more innocent than not, but that might be just because her comment about flip-flopping made me happy. :D

Nilp - I'm wondering whether I want to start the debate about the meaning of Nilp's lack of self-vote... I would be happy if he had just finally changed his playing style a little.

Mithalwen - can't say much yet either.

Legate - sensible enough, however this doesn't mean much.


Wow, that was quite a piece of no opinions. I clearly need to shrapen my brain.


edit: xed with everything
edit2: in fact didn't crosspost with anything that was on the previous page, sorry!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

You failed to notice (or purposely ignored) the fact that one ordo can make a difference in the outcome simply by being alive.

I don't think that Sally would have endangered herself that much in her first post if she has a special role. However, I see what you mean about Bom. He's really pushing a sallywagon, or trying to.

Kit is #2 on my suspision list, for saying that Bom is pushing a sallywagon and pushing it herself yet further.



But no wolf will kill her after your post! That would be so obvious! The only explanation I could come up with is that you are a wolf who speaks while plotting who will be the first victim. And you're debating about Bom to make yourself look unconnected to him.

Very likely of being baddies:
-Bom
-Kit

Edit: xed with Sally

G55, this is the most suspicious thing yet posted. (Welcome to WW, by the way :D )

Defending Sally, exaggerating Bom's words, and painting Kitanna as hypocritical (which was not my interpretation of Kit's post). I don't quite see why you did all three of these things.

[Mithalwen]

Show may be too strong a word but I was trying to make the distinction that querying the rules is not necessarily a genuine enquiry - especially when there are admin threads - and indeed pms for that sort of the thing. There is a difference between asking (faux-) naif questions about things that can be learned easily by reading the start of the thread and for example, in our current situation of wondering what significance the Ranger twist might have. It certainly could make a difference, btw, particularly in a relatively small village - and there is a good chance of it coming in to play since someone the Ranger prioritises to protect is quite likely to be a wolf priority.

So some things belong on Admin threads others on game threads. That was the point of them originally. Not a hard and fast rule - and I am not having a pop at Nogrod on that score - I have cited RL at times I know :( . Saying I am having a bad day is again different to announcing the game should be played to one players schedule. :rolleyes: But maybe I am just a grouchy and irritable old woman.

[satansaloser2005]

Defending Sally, exaggerating Bom's words, and painting Kitanna as hypocritical (which was not my interpretation of Kit's post). I don't quite see why you did all three of these things.

I'm hoping she's just being a newbie and has picked me to latch onto for the game. I know I'll have to keep an extra close eye on her, as I tend to forget about people who seem to agree with me, and that can be quite the fatal mistake.

[satansaloser2005]

Also, I see where Mith's coming from when she says that asking about the rules can be an attempt to look naive and innocent. I'm not saying that's what's been done here, but I do understand her point (as well as the counterpoint that people with roles must understand the rules to perform well).

[Mithalwen]

Way back when I first modded Kitanna was right about just about everything and ignored and lynched. The village lost and it was a heavy loss. A serious player verily.

[Thinlómien]

Nogrod goes up for thinking more or less exactly the same as me.

Lottie goes down for being so squishy. She seems to have very little to say (well I know this might sound hypocritical but she's been involved for much longer toDay than me!)

[Kitanna]

Kit's post I saw and instantly "whaaaaaaat"ed because I forgot she was playing in this game. But I don't know how to read her yet, I just wanted to mention that.

Thanks dear :P

++Sally
My hat I say!

I have to go now. Best of luck to the village for the rest of today.

[Nogrod]

Nog, just because someone posts regularly/in a way you fancy doesn't mean they're innocent. I understand your desire to keep good posters around, but I can think of many games where that logic (or the reverse, for that matter) cost the innocents a victory. Innocence or guilt is what matters, not how pretty your posts are.That's not actually what I'm saying.

The wolves need to lie, right? The goodies can speak true, right?

Now find out a wolf and a baddie amongst the following personas:

1) a baddie who says nothing
2) a goodie who says nothing
3) a baddie who talks a lot and argues a lot - and needs to lie most of the time
4) a goodie that talks a lot and argues a lot - and can be true all the time (even if s/he can err)

It's clear getting the baddie of character 1) is just a random chance (and a poor one at that as people too seldom agree to lynch a submarine player - thus creating the place for the wolves to win in unsportsmanlike style.)

Also a goodie of type b) just make this game harder for us other gooidies (so they should be regarded as traitors I'd say if I'd be harsher, but as the agreeable person I am, I just call them sissies).

But a baddie of type 3) can be caught with logic, argumentation, you name it! And even if there are great risks in finding out a goodie of type 4) from a baddie of type 3) - that pocess is something we call playing werewolf. Anyone could cast random votes with their dices at home alone if that was fun...

So therefore whehter Kitanna is good or bad is a lesser thing toDay as there is no clear evidence she is bad - as she makes cases she can be scrutinised by them later - unlike those who just "hey, need to hunt some werewolf, plese you others post, bye".

Heh, I'm feeling nostalgic. I haven't made this rant in years (really Mith, you must believe me - I think I was this way all the time when we used to play a many games a long time ago - maybe it's you who are bringing this reaction from me after a long time? :)). And I'm actually not too keen to continue pressing it. But just as answer to you Sally; the issue is more complicated...

Funny, I thought you would have played that many games you would have seen all that Sally?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Oh, we have to highlight our votes, don't we? Haven't done this in a while so let's just see if I can remember....

Yes. Good. Um... as you were. :p

[satansaloser2005]

Way back when I first modded Kitanna was right about just about everything and ignored and lynched. The village lost and it was a heavy loss. A serious player verily.

Yes, but if she's evil, then by your logic she's serious evil. I'm just sayin'.



x'd since the post I quoted, as I got distracted by a tiny feathered creature

[Loslote]

Lottie goes down for being so squishy. She seems to have very little to say (well I know this might sound hypocritical but she's been involved for much longer toDay than me!)

The only hunch I've got so far is an ickle little one about Galadriel, and I don't want to lynch a player on their first Day 1 ever. That just seems kind of harsh. I've been re-reading, looking for anything else that jumps out at me. It's been quiet, though. *grump*

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

++Galadriel55

So you'll remember me forever as the first person ever to vote for you in Werewolf. Har! :D

Seriously: too much defending of Sally, too much attacking Bom and a weird interpretation of Kitanna. I think there's something lupine with this one!

[satansaloser2005]

Ah. My apologies, sir Nog. As long as you're not using that argument to keep Kit (or anyone else) around just because she tickles your ears (and using it indefinitely), I don't have a problem with it. Indeed, I agree with you, but we must remember that baddies can be golden-tongued and that we need to keep an eye on them as much as on the submarines.

Speaking of submarines....Shasta, darling? Where are you?


I'm going to go have a look at Eomer, I do believe. After all, I don't want to get so caught up in what Kit's been saying that I neglect her (possible) packmates. :)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The only hunch I've got so far is an ickle little one about Galadriel, and I don't want to lynch a player on their first Day 1 ever. That just seems kind of harsh. I've been re-reading, looking for anything else that jumps out at me. It's been quiet, though. *grump*

Compassion gets you nowhere in Werewolf.

[Mithalwen]

It does have a certain familiar ring but the main thing I associate with you is ranting about people voting at the last minute when you always vote at the last minute yourself :rolleyes: And the last time we played was Rikae's game which maybe shouldn't be dwellt on. But it is common sense. Frothy posting can be irritating but it may be the froth conceals something substantial - as with a Macchiato

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm here! And I have First Impressions. :D

Sally is probably my dear sweet cupcake, and I would not like to lynch her toDay at all.

Bom is a dear sweet newish player who, from what little he's posted, sounds like last game when he was innocent. I'd like to leave him be, too.

Galadriel's posts hit me over the head a little like a baby fish, but it's her first game ever, so she gets a newbie pass out of the category of "say what now".

Kit's post I saw and instantly "whaaaaaaat"ed because I forgot she was playing in this game. But I don't know how to read her yet, I just wanted to mention that.

The rest of you I've got no real impressions on yet. More noise-making, please! ;)

Edit: Xed with two Sallys
I would second what Lommy said: What kind of impressions is that? Noting one person who was discussed this far the most (also with very thoughtful words; thanks, if you keep using such a deep and thoughtful reasoning, I might soon get lost in all the complicated definitions you make), two newbies to say that they are newbies, and one person who had been the "voice of suspicion" a bit on this thread, while concluding that there isn't much to say in the end.

Lottie might be just as well my first possibility for a vote - I mean, really, this is coming and saying nothing. More commitment would be nice in any case, anyway.

Lommy seems like nothing wrong this far, maybe except for these two:

Kitanna - for once, I don't quite get where all the Kitanna-suspicion is coming from. I don't necessarily agree with everything she says, but she seems sensible enough. I wouldn't like to lynch her toDay - it would be a poor thanks for beasically keep the discussion going on toDay.

(...)

Sally - well, I can't see why she has been made such a fuss of toDay. I'm more inclined to think she's innocent than not (I seem to recall she only makes such a show of her innocence when she's innocent) but of course this is not foolproof reasoning.

Just so that the first one sounds a bit like bloodthirsty "let's keep her around, she will continue making a fuss and people will be getting lynched" and the second could also be a "I don't suspect her... but if you lynch her, I don't mind" - however that's the worst possible interpretation, and in general I don't think she sounds like having evil intentions in truth.

Also, I see where Mith's coming from when she says that asking about the rules can be an attempt to look naive and innocent. I'm not saying that's what's been done here, but I do understand her point (as well as the counterpoint that people with roles must understand the rules to perform well).

Is that a postscriptum of something you didn't manage to write in your previous post and remembered later that you should say it, or what is the reason of you posting this? (Separately?) Just askin'.

EDIT: x-ed after Kit's vote.

[Mithalwen]

Yes, but if she's evil, then by your logic she's serious evil. I'm just sayin'.



x'd since the post I quoted, as I got distracted by a tiny feathered creature

I didn't say otherwise. But she has provided some proper analysis not just lists saying I can't decide about x... and she seems to have had an effect on you. If you were a horse there would be a stewards enquiry after that change of form. Just sayin.... Two hours left so time to read through in the light of the relative flood of posts....and votes.

[Loslote]

Compassion gets you nowhere in Werewolf.

And I have nothing better to go on, even after another read-through...yeah, yeah, but I'll still feel sorry for her if she's lynched her first Day ever. :(

You failed to notice (or purposely ignored) the fact that one ordo can make a difference in the outcome simply by being alive.

I rather don't like how she tries to make a simple omission look evil, and with an argumentative tone...it's not like she's wolf-hunting, more like wolf-inventing.

Well, maybe I misinterpreted Bom's post, but he seemed to give the message "let's vote for Sally unless there's an obvious wolf, because she might drop out". Doesn't it sound more fishy when put that way?

And here she seems to be trying to on one hand convince us that her earlier posts were reasonable, and on the other continue to further the point she'd made in it. I don't know, I might be wrong on this one, but that's what it looks like to me.

Kit, I see what you mean about Sally being cobblerish - the "center of attention". But she does not sound like a wolf.

This isn't so much a point against her as a question - I thought we didn't have a cobbler. Did I miss something? I could well have - I totally forgot Kit was playing at all, I might have forgotten there was a cobbler, too...

Edit: Xed with Mith

[satansaloser2005]

Is that a postscriptum of something you didn't manage to write in your previous post and remembered later that you should say it, or what is the reason of you posting this? (Separately?) Just askin'.

I remembered that I'd meant to say it before, and had spaced it off. That's all.




Galadriel is actually scarily supportive of me. No, I don't think I'll be voting her toDay, as I still suspect Kit, but it's a bit....no, a lot....suspicious that Galadriel is backing me so strongly. Obviously we're not packmates, but if she's a wolf, it would a good (?) idea for her to try to establish a connection with me. I don't know. I appreciate it, but I'm also wary of her buddying up to me so quickly.


I also wish Bom would come back. I want to know his take on this a bit more before I decide (although as I've said he's certainly not my top pick right now).


EDIT: x'd with Lottie. And no, there's no cobbler, sweetie.

[Nogrod]

Now this is an interesting developement.

I have been more or less uneasy with the way most people say how G55 makes so much sense. I've had a feeling she makes a lot of sense but that I also thought she was making comments that were against a well-informed goodie she seemed to be. I thought of letting it go (not going back to check the details and try to see if there was a case there) as it's her first game - and I'm not actually wishing to lynch her on D1 whatever the case - unless it can be shown believably that she is actually a wolf. I mean there is something in the traditions we should honour.

But these latest do give oneself some food for thought.

Lottie comes out in the open totally against the general outspoken mood saying she actually suspects G55.

Eomer votes G55 because of "too much defending of Sally" (+ "too much attacking Bom and a weird interpretation of Kitanna").

What Sally does next - the last line of her post, which looks like a quick reaction to what she saw in the htread before her post...
I'm going to go have a look at Eomer, I do believe. After all, I don't want to get so caught up in what Kit's been saying that I neglect her (possible) packmates. :)

We made this a useful D1 after all. Hurray!

[satansaloser2005]

Eomer votes G55 because of "too much defending of Sally" (+ "too much attacking Bom and a weird interpretation of Kitanna").

What Sally does next - the last line of her post, which looks like a quick reaction to what she saw in the htread before her post...

And you've clearly not yet seen the post in which I agree with him about how creepy it is. Do pay attention to what I'm actually saying before you cry wolf, okay, dear?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I didn't say otherwise. But she has provided some proper analysis not just lists saying I can't decide about x... and she seems to have had an effect on you. If you were a horse there would be a stewards enquiry after that change of form. Just sayin....
This actually is valid. That makes me also think rather good about Mith, for some reason, it sounds, well, innocentish to phrase it this way as well.

Okay, I don't get Lottie's case for G55. First, I am sure there would be far more better subjects. Second, it seems like diverting suspicion to other corners of the playground.
This isn't so much a point against her as a question - I thought we didn't have a cobbler. Did I miss something? I could well have - I totally forgot Kit was playing at all, I might have forgotten there was a cobbler, too...
I didn't get this part - the first part. Secondly, now that sounds like what Mith called making a show of not knowing the rules. This is the case in which I concur - this is a good example of what I would call making a show of it, not what TomBom did. Hm, I think I know whom I am going to vote, really - Lottie seems really weird here.

I remembered that I'd meant to say it before, and had spaced it off. That's all.
Okay, fine, thanks, just curious.

Galadriel is actually scarily supportive of me. No, I don't think I'll be voting her toDay, as I still suspect Kit, but it's a bit....no, a lot....suspicious that Galadriel is backing me so strongly. Obviously we're not packmates, but if she's a wolf, it would a good (?) idea for her to try to establish a connection with me. I don't know. I appreciate it, but I'm also wary of her buddying up to me so quickly.

Funny - this is about the first thing I find suspicious about Sally in the way she said something. More like the latter part. I have been many times in the situation of when somebody was backing me up when I was a Wolf, so I know the feeling well (and also many times did the same thing as a Wolf, that I have backed up someone), but saying "I don't like how somebody is backing me up" is also a thing to do when you are a Wolf. I've done that a few times. But anyway, that is a random occurance - like I said, I don't have any other suspicions for sally.

EDIT: x-ed with Nog and Sally

[satansaloser2005]

Eomer in a warg shell....

Says we have a "careful village" and that talk for the sake of talk is useless.
Mentions Galadriel's tendency to defend me.
Tells me I always look like a cobbler. :cool:
Talks about pigeons. :eek:
Describes the sudden jump on Stealth Yellowboots as "bewildering."
Sees the humor in Bom's "suspicious" post, and doesn't see why people are making such a big deal of it.
Calls Galadriel out on her defense of me and her suspicion of Bom and Kit.
Votes for Galadriel for the reasons listed above.
"Compassion gets you nowhere in Werewolf."


He seems fine to me, balanced and logical as well as picking up on the humor where people intend for it to be found. While I don't agree with him on Kit, I'm thinking that he's not a wolf, or if so, not a wolf with her. I can't possibly disagree with him on Galadriel because, well, what he says is so true. My hesitation is brought about by her newness and the likelihood that her "guilt" is just newbie mistakes, which is why I am hesitant to follow his vote.


I'll have to think on this for a bit, but I need to go soon, so I'll see what else I have to say before I leave.


EDIT: x'd since my last, bolding

[Nogrod]

I x'posted with this...Galadriel is actually scarily supportive of me. No, I don't think I'll be voting her toDay, as I still suspect Kit, but it's a bit....no, a lot....suspicious that Galadriel is backing me so strongly. Obviously we're not packmates, but if she's a wolf, it would a good (?) idea for her to try to establish a connection with me. I don't know. I appreciate it, but I'm also wary of her buddying up to me so quickly.Say what you say Sally, but that actually fits what I was saying in my earlier post. If there was a connection between you two and you felt you both were gathering suspicion partly because of it, then you should try to do away with the connection.


Heh... And you've clearly not yet seen the post in which I agree with him about how creepy it is. Do pay attention to what I'm actually saying before you cry wolf, okay, dear?I had not seen that post of yours (quoted here in my post earlier) at that time, but as you see, I was actually responding to that even before you asked me. And I was making a quite different interpretation of it than the one you offer.

Oh my Sally, have you got lost from the path of the pure-hearted ones? I was not "crying wolf", but I have a feeling you just did it yourself... I was talking about there being parties, not that one of them is guilty. :cool:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

*ahem* It's well known that the first three people to post are the wolves. This means that while I agree with you, Nilp, about Sally being evil, so are you and . . . er . . . me. Um, maybe I should've thought that through more.

By the way, does anybody know whether votes are retractable? If it's in the rules, then I missed it.

If they are, then I'll be voting for DeathWish!Sally until such time as further evidence is presented.

"But she doesn't have a death wish," you say?

Quote:
If I don't withdraw, I'll have to be killed at some point . . .
You will note that she has not withdrawn, ergo, according to her own (totally not-taken-out-of-context!) words, she will have to be killed.
I think, especially due to that last sentence, that this post was mostly a joke by Bom. What bothers me about it is that it also looked like he was using this joke-post to prep for an easy vote on Sally today.

So we know for sure if we're still a struggling village looking to kill some wolves by the 6th Sally is out. Why bother telling us this? If she's an ordo she can't protect, dream of, or kill anyone. She can only vote. Of course we're out one vote which isn't good, but at this point in the game why bother saying anything?
1) She's a gifted and she wants to ensure her survival so we can get as much use out of her as possible before her inevitable death.
2) She's a wolf and she wants to ensure survival under the guise of innocence by her self-possessed "this village can't win with a dead ordo Sally"
3) She's a foolish villager who has now left herself open for attacks at night.
1) Why would you bring attention to this, if true?
2) Survival only to have to drop out/be modkilled later? Try again.
3) Sally is many things, but foolish isn't one of them. Hmm.

Sally pretty much signed her own death warrant with that post anyway you look at it, but she wants us all believe we can't win the game as a village without her.

Quote:
Statistically, if I'm killed as an ordo, the village cannot win. (The only exception to this is a tie.)
And so I declared shenanigans on this idea earlier. If Sally really is innocent, gifted or ordo, there's a good chance the wolves will take advantage and get her in the Night.
What Sally is basically saying is that every time she's been an ordo and died, the village has won. And the second part of this quote seems rather redundant, unless you're saying the wolves won't try to get her lynched... in which case, why would you say that when you're the one saying she's suspicious?

I'm a little confused - Kitanna's suspicious are Sally and Bom, and she seems to be suspicious of Bom for being ready to vote Sally, which to me seems a bit counter-intuitive. And this -
I can understand suspicions of Sally, but simply killing her because she's going to die seems pretty wolfish. It's almost like "she's admitted she's an ordo, best to get one villager out of the way by Day and another by Night."
- may be pulling a Lottie, but struck me as rather over-the-top.

I'm unsure what to think of Sally at this point. This -
Ah, but you see, dear Kit, if the wolves try to kill me in the Night, they won't be targeting one of the gifteds. So not only have I now made the announcement of when we'll need to win the game by very clear, I've created possible confusion among the wolf pack.

A wolf pack which I now believe you might be a part of, precious.


Ain't life grand?



And now, a list!

Possibly evil (by basis of reacting suspiciously to my post):
Kit
Bom (depending on whether or not he was entirely joking, and even then)
Nerwen (for defending-ish me far too quickly for Nerwen)

Possibly evil (by basis of record):
Nilp
Mith
Nerwen
Kit
Lottie

Possibly evil (by basis of being insane):
Everyone
- has elements of both ordo-Sally and wolf-Sally in it; she's flippant and sarcastic in her defense, but she's also quick to revenge-accuse Kitanna.

I don't think that Sally would have endangered herself that much in her first post if she has a special role. However, I see what you mean about Bom. He's really pushing a sallywagon, or trying to.
One post does not a pushing attempt make, I don't think. I would like to see Bom comment on his post, though.
Kit is #2 on my suspision list, for saying that Bom is pushing a sallywagon and pushing it herself yet further.
I do agree with this, though. Kit brings up the Sally-vote in a showcase-like manner, then suspects Bom for starting it in the first place.
But no wolf will kill her after your post! That would be so obvious! The only explanation I could come up with is that you are a wolf who speaks while plotting who will be the first victim. And you're debating about Bom to make yourself look unconnected to him.
This could be a bit too much assumption on your part, though, Gala. It's really hard to predict what wolves will do in any given situation - it truly depends on the wolf. I'm not convinced that Kit and Bom are both wolves together, either.

Greenie, you've called Nerwen "careful" and "neutral" twice now. Do you suspect her, or not?

Kit wouldn't set so many arguments against him (with which personally I agree) if he was her packmate. It's too much of a risk.
She absolutely would, especially on Day 1 when it's unlikely he'll be voted for being "new-ish". Wolf-on-wolfing is an extremely common tactic among wolves.

I doubt I'll vote for Sally today. I don't trust her, but Bom looks worse for his actions.
Bom has only made one action to speak of. This seems like it's jumping the gun a bit.

I don't know what Sally is playing at though. It is ten days til she says she has to go and in a game this size it is unlikely to be an issue. And apart from the ethics of participating in a game knowing you may not be able to see it through, I can't see any benefit of drawing attention to it so far in advance. I may be being thick but I can't see it being a helpful tactic for any role we have in the game. A hunter needs to get themselves killed to fulfil their purpose but we don't have one and it would be impossible for a Hunter to be in a position to make a good call that early in the game.
I basically agree with everything said here.

Overruled, Mith. There were pigeons and, what's more, the promise of pigeons yet to appear.
I think you're a pigeon! :o I do, however, agree with you about the jump on Bom.

Why do you think not knowing the rules is suspicious? I would think the opposite - WWs especially really have to read the rules, so that they can operate properly. (Although, in my opinion, everybody should read the rules carefully to be able to operate properly in his or her own role - even ordos, so that they can judge well what's going on and what are the options... but for WWs and Gifteds it is necessary, because e.g. you cannot play a Ranger without knowing how this role works, and a Wolf should know that as well, so that they know how they should plan their Night-kills in regards to there being other roles which can hinder them and so on...)
Can we just... not go down this road? 'Kay, thanks. :Merisu: (See - Lottie.)

On another quick note. As I just skimmed through what had happened the last I find it odd Greenie makes some sense saying that what Bom said looked more like "this is what I'm going to do unless there is a better option" and not "there is our wolf, let's lynch her together now". But then she went on and voted for him.
This, also, I agree with.

Re Lommy at #79 - I don't think I've ever seen Lommy so decisive! Especially on Day 1! Something to consider...

The thing that bothers me about Kit is that she flip flops on me, first calling my post rather innocent and then (in her most recent post) saying that I'm likely guilty because of how I'm handling myself. You can't have it both ways, dear, and while I agree that Bom's reaction to my post could point to guilt, it could just as easily be a joke.
Er... no she doesn't, dearheart. Kitanna specifically says in her first post about you that she finds your post suspicious.

Wow, that was quite a piece of no opinions. I clearly need to shrapen my brain.
Hee hee.

Defending Sally, exaggerating Bom's words, and painting Kitanna as hypocritical (which was not my interpretation of Kit's post). I don't quite see why you did all three of these things.
Really, oh pigeon? Suspecting Sally and then suspecting Bom for suspecting Sally seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Speaking of submarines....Shasta, darling? Where are you?
I'm doing a composite post. Shush.

[satansaloser2005]

Legate: I'm actually the opposite. As a wolf, being backed up would make me feel more comfortable, take some of the pressure off. As an innocent, however, I feel as if people support me only to make me the object of their manipulation.

Maybe I'm just paranoid. :p


x'd with Nog

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Eomer votes G55 because of "too much defending of Sally" (+ "too much attacking Bom and a weird interpretation of Kitanna").

What Sally does next - the last line of her post, which looks like a quick reaction to what she saw in the htread before her post...

Interesting observation, really. A good one, but I am really not putting that much into the G55 situation. G55 really seems rather sensible to me this far.

Although of course, being thrown into your first game as a Wolf might force you to sharpen your skills to the most (I could talk - I had such an experience in my first game), so that might be what stands behind her surprisingly good reasoning this far... but then maybe it is also just stalking WW threads for too long (as I believe she had been doing)...

EDIT: x-ed since my last. Ah, people seem to be on dope, good. Posts falling from the very sky...

[satansaloser2005]

Heh... I had not seen that post of yours (quoted here in my post earlier) at that time, but as you see, I was actually responding to that even before you asked me.

Heh, heh, heh. I figured you hadn't seen it yet, and couldn't resist the opportunity to give you a (very) hard time. *blows a kiss*

Shasta! Darling! You're back! :D


x'd with Legate

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Funny - this is about the first thing I find suspicious about Sally in the way she said something.

I actually tend to agree with you. I do find it odd that Sally never mentions suspecting Gala until after first Lottie, then Eomer mention it, then uses their reasoning to say "oh, by the way, I suspect her too!" Hmm.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Legate: I'm actually the opposite. As a wolf, being backed up would make me feel more comfortable, take some of the pressure off. As an innocent, however, I feel as if people support me only to make me the object of their manipulation.

Maybe I'm just paranoid. :p


x'd with Nog

You would, of course, say this as a wolf, darling. ;)

[satansaloser2005]

What Sally is basically saying is that every time she's been an ordo and died, the village has won.

Flipping this. I have an Excel chart to prove it. >.<


Er... no she doesn't, dearheart. Kitanna specifically says in her first post about you that she finds your post suspicious.

But she's suspecting Bom for suspecting me, then suspecting me herself. I really should have been clearer about that, shouldn't I? Oh well. I just mean that suspecting the person who suspects the person you're suspecting doesn't make any sense. Just like that last sentence. :p



x'd with Shasta

[satansaloser2005]

You would, of course, say this as a wolf, darling. ;)

Oh, I totally would. It doesn't make it any less true though.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Flipping this. I have an Excel chart to prove it. >.<




But she's suspecting Bom for suspecting me, then suspecting me herself. I really should have been clearer about that, shouldn't I? Oh well. I just mean that suspecting the person who suspects the person you're suspecting doesn't make any sense. Just like that last sentence. :p



x'd with Shasta

Oops! I actually meant to say "the village has lost", not "won". My bad.

Yes, if you read my post I mention that myself. :)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I do hope the lack of any Legate or Nog posts in the last few minutes means they're reading my novel and preparing comments. :p :Merisu:

I'll be back in fifteen minutes or so. Deadline is in an hour and a half, correct?

[satansaloser2005]

Oops! I actually meant to say "the village has lost", not "won". My bad.

Yes, if you read my post I mention that myself. :)

Bahahahaha! I didn't even notice that!


And I know, but didn't you mention it in regards to Eomer? It applies to Kit as well, which is why I did a re-hash.



x'd with Shasta

[satansaloser2005]

I'll be back in fifteen minutes or so. Deadline is in an hour and a half, correct?



Ditto this, and yes, dear, you're correct.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, this is rather horrible. Sally had actually managed to make me suspect her in the last several posts she had made, good job from you, sally.

First this post about Eomer - also given the general context, it seems a bit too random, also with the whole summary, as if what a Wolf could do if being suddenly under fire "ugh... I think I'd better avoid talking about myself and talk about something else... let's analyse someone".
He seems fine to me, balanced and logical as well as picking up on the humor where people intend for it to be found. While I don't agree with him on Kit, I'm thinking that he's not a wolf, or if so, not a wolf with her. I can't possibly disagree with him on Galadriel because, well, what he says is so true. My hesitation is brought about by her newness and the likelihood that her "guilt" is just newbie mistakes, which is why I am hesitant to follow his vote.
There is rather a lot of flip-flopping and not really saying much in the end. "The person seems fine to me" or "I don't know, maybe it is nothing" is rather Wolf-y stuff, as in, "I am not the one who lynched you" (or alternatively, "I won't lynch my packmates, but I won't speak too loud for their defence either, lest I be judged myself").

Legate: I'm actually the opposite. As a wolf, being backed up would make me feel more comfortable, take some of the pressure off. As an innocent, however, I feel as if people support me only to make me the object of their manipulation.

Maybe I'm just paranoid. :p
Of course, that is only what you claim - we have no way to verify it. But I understand.

Heh, heh, heh. I figured you hadn't seen it yet, and couldn't resist the opportunity to give you a (very) hard time. *blows a kiss*
Okay, this is probably the worst. So what, you figured he hadn't seen it and still posted what you did? Makes no sense to me. Didn't sound like it. Sounded like a genuine defence. And now you are relativising the defence - because you were suspected even despite it? I don't really get it.

All in all, if this stuff was meant to save you from suspicion, it managed to do actually the very opposite, thank you very much.

EDIT: x-ed since after the sally post I quote.

[satansaloser2005]

There is rather a lot of flip-flopping and not really saying much in the end. "The person seems fine to me" or "I don't know, maybe it is nothing" is rather Wolf-y stuff, as in, "I am not the one who lynched you" (or alternatively, "I won't lynch my packmates, but I won't speak too loud for their defence either, lest I be judged myself").



Quite the opposite. I may not agree with everything he says, but I don't think he's guilty, and I said almost exactly that.

You're twisting my words so hard I think a few vertebrae have popped. :eek:


EDIT: Leaving in a few ticks. This'll probably be the last post from me for a little while.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I do hope the lack of any Legate or Nog posts in the last few minutes means they're reading my novel and preparing comments. :p :Merisu:

I'll be back in fifteen minutes or so. Deadline is in an hour and a half, correct?

I'm already done with you, at least for the time being, thanks :) But what I've been writing you can see above.

In any case, speaking of Shasta, I think he looks rather good for the time being. Whereas sally (to add to what I said in my last post also what has happened meanwhile) sounds really bad also in all her other posts - random short entries with what could be a wannabe-happy mask of a Wolf who is actually in the middle of a crossfire right now. Sort of a hysterical reaction, if you wish. Really, I don't like this behavior. It came so out of nowhere.

[Thinlómien]

Uggh I still have no opinions and it's getting late. Somehow none of the arguments really convince me.

So who I won't vote toDay:
Kitanna - too useful this far.
Nogrod - us agreeing made me think him innocent, and now that we don't agree so much anymore (his case on Sally etc) I still think he looks fairly good.
Sally - well I still think she is one of the players who tends to avoid declaring her innocence when evil.
Shasta - gives me innocent vibes.
Legate - hats off for clearing his head and using his time much better than me, and his way of argumenting seems pretty innocent this far.

I'm the most suspicious about Eomer and Lottie atm, but it's mostly just gut-feeling. Maybe reread or more thinking would be in order.


edit: xed with Sally and Legate

[Galadriel55]

G55 has defended Sally about three times!

I believe that was only one time, the other two just explaining my reason for it farther...

G55 - wouldn't believe it's her first game, she's so sharp.

Thank you!

G55, this is the most suspicious thing yet posted. (Welcome to WW, by the way)

Defending Sally, exaggerating Bom's words, and painting Kitanna as hypocritical (which was not my interpretation of Kit's post). I don't quite see why you did all three of these things.

Answered Greenie's similar question bout it in #57.

The only hunch I've got so far is an ickle little one about Galadriel

And which one would that be? That I am suspecting Kit, Bom, or that I think that Sally is an innocent?

++Galadriel55

So you'll remember me forever as the first person ever to vote for you in Werewolf. Har! :D

I won't forget about it next game. :cool: ;)

Seriously: too much defending of Sally, too much attacking Bom and a weird interpretation of Kitanna.

So one defense is too much? And I'm not the only person to suspect Bom. Kit makes more sense to me now - after a couple more posts - but at that time she didn't.

I rather don't like how she tries to make a simple omission look evil, and with an argumentative tone...it's not like she's wolf-hunting, more like wolf-inventing.

Paranoia? Point taken.

Galadriel is actually scarily supportive of me.

Yes, seeing as I don't want you - an innocent in my books so far - be lynched. I don't know if I've been that "scarily supportive". I think I've only made one point that you don't look like a wolf, and everyone jumped on it, making me repeat it.

Edit: xed with a host...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Quite the opposite. I may not agree with everything he says, but I don't think he's guilty, and I said almost exactly that.

You're twisting my words so hard I think a few vertebrae have popped. :eek:

Nope, I don't see anything like that. I was speaking generally, and the stuff about "not lynched you" was referring more to what you said about voting G55 at that point than about Eomer. With Eomer, it was more like this "this person seems fine"-thing.

Now, going to decide whom I want to vote...

EDIT: again x-ed since my last.

[Loslote]

I believe that was only one time, the other two just explaining my reason for it farther...

I believe he counted it as three times that you defended Sally. Three seperate posts and all that. And it isn't just the defending, it's the way that you had been so convinced of her innocence. The only way you could have known that would be if you knew she wasn't a packmate of yours - the other way you could have known that, it'd have been too dangerous to flaunt your certainty quite so loudly. You've backed off now some -

an innocent in my books so far

- but still.

And which one would that be? That I am suspecting Kit, Bom, or that I think that Sally is an innocent?

Not quite - the hunch that you've grown fur where you oughtn't have. ;)

[Nogrod]

Okay, this is probably the worst. So what, you figured he hadn't seen it and still posted what you did? Makes no sense to me. Didn't sound like it. Sounded like a genuine defence. And now you are relativising the defence - because you were suspected even despite it? I don't really get it.
As I thought... and why I started asking if she really had turned to the dark side.

I might have expressed myself not in the clearest terms in the end of my last post, so let me rephrase it here.

Sally says I shouldn't cry wolf before I see her counterargument.

First of all that counterargument is worthless as it can go both ways (and is not backed by any evidence) and it is actually something one would presume a wolf might do in that tight a situation - being suspected on D1 and all that jazz (it can't be "backed with evidence" this other way either, to be sure).

But the second point I find more damning. I said this turned out a good Day1 as we got sides (fractions, alliances... whatever). That would be good later as there would be something to mull over when the first wolf gets lynched or if enough innocents fitting a pattern are Nightkilled/lynched. But her take on that was that I was crying her a wolf... I do feel like reading a confession here.


Okay. I have to do a few other things as well and it's getting late (2AM shortly). I'll be back to vote and will most probably vote for Sally unless something new emerges.

PS. I see G55 has posted. After a quick skim I think I may need to think the potential relationship between her and Sally again - and what it means to my high suspicion on Sally at the moment. And I thought I would be done away with all the stuff early enough to vote like now and go to sleep... Well back, in half an hour or something.

[Mithalwen]

I have votes for Sally (Kit) Bom (Greenie) and Galadriel (Eomer) ? Sally had seemed most suspicious so far I am not sure if the marked change is a sign of wronged innocence getting a grip or a desperate wolf. But I am obliged to look at Lottie (on my read the rules rule :rolleyes:) And now time really is pressing.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Thinking about Sally while I was gone - based on reading her feel and not content, Sally reads more innocent than baddie to me. As a wolf I've seen her get steadily and steadily more... not "hysterical", but more "flail-y" in a sense that she'll be more and more sarcastic and dismissive of points against her as time goes on. I've seen a little of that from her today, but she strikes me as calmer than a wolf-Sally under pressure would be.

Based on content... I think I need to see more actual thought from Sally-dear, rather than fishing expeditions, before I decide. I don't think I'll be voting for her today.

I could vote for Kitanna, as she's really the one I tend to feel the worst about, but she seems to have no support as a lynch toDay and would thus be a throwaway. I don't want to vote Bom as the action that's got people so riled up about him has been his only action all Day - and on participation grounds wouldn't mind lynching him, but I think I'd rather see if he shapes up tomorrow.

I do need to vote soon (within the next fifteen minutes), however, and so I think I'm going to go look at Lottie.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Generally dividing people to groups by the level of suspicion - i.e. how much suspicious they seem to me:

Red zone:
Sally
Loslote

Orange zone:
Bom Tom
Kitanna

Yellow zone:
G55
Eomer
Lommy

Green zone:
Nogrod
Shasta
Mith

Grey zone - not enough data:
Nerwen
Greenie
Nilp

I shall be picking my votes probably from the red zone. However, I am sending a sharp rebuke to the people in the grey zone. I really would like to see them posting something substantial, otherwise, I might just as well have them in my target field just for the sake of being avoidant.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

But the second point I find more damning. I said this turned out a good Day1 as we got sides (fractions, alliances... whatever). That would be good later as there would be something to mull over when the first wolf gets lynched or if enough innocents fitting a pattern are Nightkilled/lynched. But her take on that was that I was crying her a wolf... I do feel like reading a confession here.
Well, to be fair, I think what you said looked as if you were implying she is a Wolf - it seemed like that also to me when I read it. But you are probably right in what you say about reacting to it: a Wolf would probably react to reading what she thought is an accusation differently than an innocent would (even if it actually wasn't an accusation, the point is the reaction and the thought process of the person).

[Galadriel55]

Bom Tombadillo - spread suspicion and then disappeared. I wish he would post a bit more, and at least react somehow.
Nogrod - I need to reread his posts, as I'm having a hard time understanding some of his arguments. So far so good for the vibes.
Shasta - makes some good points (even though I don't agree with everything he says)
Kitanna - suspects Bom for suspecting Saly, but suspects Sally herself. First is inclined to vote for Bom, but changes her mind and votes Sally. Interesting (I'm not sure if it's in a good or a bad way...)
Sally - looks innocentish, but you've probably heard enough of that from me.
Eomer - no impression. Popped in to make a couple comments and to vote me.
Nerwen - as has been said before, guarded and careful. Too quiet. No impression.
Loslote - didn't say too many things either. No impression. A bit weird that she has nothing to say.
Greenie - doesn't think of Bom as very suspicious, yet vote for him. Also interesting.
Lommy - also not too many posts. Didn't comment a lot.
Nilp - where are you?
Legate - suspects Sally because I called her an innocent. Otherwise, looks good.
Mith avoided all the me-bom-kit-sally tangle. Didn't take sides. Didn't commit herself to anything. Made some fair points, but stayed aside.

So that's some opinionophobia from me. :p

Bom, Eomer, and Nerwen posted too little for me to get a descent impression. Nilp didn't post anything of [worthwhile] content. That is too many players fo less than an hour before DL!!! :eek:

Edit: xed since my last

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Lottie-lysis
Her first four posts were banter, so I didn't bother with them.

#87 - Does not want to lynch Sally "at all", Bom, mentions a tiny suspicion of Gala ("her posts hit me over the head a little like a baby fish"), didn't realize Kit was playing.

#99 - Mentions her hunch on Gala again, and complains it's been quiet. Eomer votes for Gala at the same time (4:41), but there's no mention of cross-posting.

#106 - Explains her suspicion of Gala. I think it's rather funny she says this -
I don't know, I might be wrong on this one, but that's what it looks like to me.
- when combined with what Legate says here -
"The person seems fine to me" or "I don't know, maybe it is nothing" is rather Wolf-y stuff, as in, "I am not the one who lynched you" (or alternatively, "I won't lynch my packmates, but I won't speak too loud for their defence either, lest I be judged myself")..

#131 - Although Lottie has said several times that she "gives Gala a newbie-pass" and "will feel bad if she's lynched her first Day 1 ever", here she continues to build her suspicion of Gala.


Conclusion - Lottie has set herself up today so that really the only person she can vote is Gala (she hasn't evidenced suspicion on anyone else); which, when combined with all that about "oh I'll feel so bad if she's lynched" and giving her a newbie-pass, really makes me raise both eyebrows. Lottie looks extremely contradictory.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

++Lottie

See above for reasons.

Shasta, out.

[Thinlómien]

Mmh. Tempted to follow Shasta's lead. He definitely didn't make Lottie sound too good.

Will be back in 15min and concentrate more or less until the deadline. Promise!

[Galadriel55]

Votes:
Sally (Kit)
G55 (Eomer)
Bom (Greenie)
Lottie (Shasta)

[Loslote]

[#131 - Although Lottie has said several times that she "gives Gala a newbie-pass" and "will feel bad if she's lynched her first Day 1 ever", here she continues to build her suspicion of Gala.

I do feel bad about it. But newbie passes are fickle things, and if I don't see anyone else who jumps out as suspicious, I've got to follow up on the one person I do suspect.

Edit: Xed with Galadriel's vote count

[satansaloser2005]

Vote count:

Kit-->Sally
Eomer-->Galadriel
Greenie-->Bom
Shasta-->Lottie

Left to vote:
Bom
Nog
Galadriel
Sally
Nerwen
Lottie
Lommie
Nilp (though I doubt we'll be surprised :p)
Mith
Legate


X'd with the Lad lass and Lottie....oops

[Shastanis Althreduin]

From phone - Lottie, its also that you've set yourself up to appear oh-so-very sorry if Gala is lynched innocent.... which is just the kind of possible falseness you've accused others for countless times.

[Thinlómien]

Lottie - it's not a problem to want to give a newbie a newbie pass but decide not to give it because the newbie is the most suspicious person around - but if you ask me, it does look weird if you keep saying you want to give her a newbie pass but still keep bringing up points against her. It's kind of weird. You should decide if you want to give her the newbie pass or not, or at least wonder aloud if you want to give it anymore or not, but what you're doing now is just confusing.

[Nogrod]

Two things (I try to be short).

That note by Lottie that she didn't know Kitanna is playing looks quite odd to me. I remeber seeing that comment being made or commented upon a few times earlier - and have no time to check them I'm afraid (never say never) - but why would any goodie say anything like that in the first place, not to mention it is a question of someone who has been the most substantive poster at those earlier stages of the game? I could see a thoughtless buddy of a baddie say something like that to disengage herself from the other person though... but even that would require a reason she should feel she needs to do that. Is there one? If there is, then Kit & Lottie might be mates in crime.

The other one: Kit has been suspected of suspecting both Sally & Bom (between whom there seems to be some suspecting), but that is perfectly natural: it's not that uncommon in WW to suspect two players who are at each others' throats. X and Y can be suspicious while you know they both most probably aren't. So those who simple-mindedly turn this into a reason to suspect Kit I find a bit suspicious themselves - especially if it looks like that with that suggestion they'r trying to save someone they have a relation with.

Like I said before, it looks like we have some "coalitions" or "parties" here already and me likes that. Lot of things to read later on.

But sure, we have more pressing matters now. I just thought these were things important enpough to state if I'm not here toMorrow.

[Mithalwen]

OK it has been a long hot day and my head hurts, I feel I must stay with my strongest pick. I found the initial announcement odd and the complete volteface on playing style too bizarre.

++Satansaloser

[Loslote]

Lottie - it's not a problem to want to give a newbie a newbie pass but decide not to give it because the newbie is the most suspicious person around - but if you ask me, it does look weird if you keep saying you want to give her a newbie pass but still keep bringing up points against her. It's kind of weird. You should decide if you want to give her the newbie pass or not, or at least wonder aloud if you want to give it anymore or not, but what you're doing now is just confusing.

Okay. Clarification - I am not giving her a newbie pass, but I still feel bad about it, and I don't want to come off as mean, especially when it's only Galadriel's first game.

EDIT: Xed with Nog and Mith - and now it gets crazy, right? :p

[Loslote]

not to mention it is a question of someone who has been the most substantive poster at those earlier stages of the game?

Oh, that was about the first post I saw by her - I did a double-take when I realized she was playing. Thought I'd mention it in passing. Of course I noticed her after that. ;)

[Thinlómien]

Argh, Lottie, couldn't you have replied a bit more suspiciously? I was hoping I could stop thinking and just vote you, and now I'm running out of time. Sorry people this has been and will be a crappy Day from me. If I'm alive toMorrow I will try to make it better...

[Nogrod]

Lottie: Why did you say this, especially the bolded part?
Kit's post I saw and instantly "whaaaaaaat"ed because I forgot she was playing in this game. But I don't know how to read her yet, I just wanted to mention that.
I find no good reason and even whims are hard to find why to make such one... That is so random unless it meant something.

[Loslote]

Lottie: Why did you say this, especially the bolded part?

I find no good reason and even whims are hard to find why to make such one... That is so random unless it meant something.

Because I usually read over the sign-up lists and the Admin threads, and it was weird realizing that I totally overlooked her signing up. I guess other people don't find that weird, though.

[Nogrod]

Is the latest vote-count right?

I think Greenie voted first and she is there third... do the numbers of votes count?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Argh, Lottie, couldn't you have replied a bit more suspiciously? I was hoping I could stop thinking and just vote you, and now I'm running out of time.

Something like that. I am here trying to decide whether to vote Sally or Lottie... and Lottie is both more and less suspicious than sally, if you understand me: it is far more likely that she is a Wolf, but at the same time, it is also far more likely that she is innocent (like, I would not be surprised if she was). Sally, on the other hand, is less likely to be a Wolf, but also less likely innocent...

Anyway, I am now maybe more inclined to vote Lottie, but still, I would love it if there came a random inspiration on me in the following minute...

[Inziladun]

DL in 10 minutes.

[Mithalwen]

Not knowing who is playing is just an alternative to the rule query. This information is out there folks. It really doesn't set a good impression to ask such questions. One is usually not forces to play these games a little attention would be nice. I don't always do a lot of notes but my filofax is full of player lists and voting records. Yes this day may give us a lot to go on after all.... but too late today for me to act on it.

[Galadriel55]

If I voted in the first half of the Day, it would have been either Bom or Kit. But Bom hasn't said anything after his suspicious post, and Kit made more sense in her last 2 posts...

I could vote for Greenie, Eomer, Lommy, and possibly Nilp, but there has been limited participation from all of them.

Lommy's posts are somewhat fishy - she has no opinions well into the Day, and decides to vote for Lottie as soon as Shasta casts suspicion on her, but then decides against it. She will probably be my candidate.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, voting now, to minimalise the mess and make votes more relevant in their reading.

++Lottie

[Thinlómien]

++LOTTIE

Sorry m'dear but you're more suspicious than Sally...


edit: xed with G55 and Legate

[Loslote]

Not knowing who is playing is just an alternative to the rule query. This information is out there folks. It really doesn't set a good impression to ask such questions. One is usually not forces to play these games a little attention would be nice.

But I do pay attention! That's why it's so weird to me when I slip up like that, and why I commented. I didn't ask "Is Kit playing, then?", I just mentioned that I hadn't noticed her earlier.

Edit: Xed with Galadriel and the two votes - I'm going to get whiplash with all these Day 1 lynches! :eek:

[Galadriel55]

++Lommy

[Nogrod]

Because I usually read over the sign-up lists and the Admin threads, and it was weird realizing that I totally overlooked her signing up. I guess other people don't find that weird, though.I know one comes up with surprises on that front, but why say that out loud in the first place?

But more importantly: why did you want to mention that in that special way, "just wanted to mention that"? Why did you want that - and to let us know you did want us to know that? To try to create a feeling there can't be anything between you two last Night?

I see no other option unless you give me one.

[Mithalwen]

I think it will... some people really love that whoooshing noise deadlines make as they hurtle towards them.....

[satansaloser2005]

Is the latest vote-count right?

I think Greenie voted first and she is there third... do the numbers of votes count?

Hers was first, my apologies. I'm on my phone and didn't remember the order. :/

Greenie-->Bom
Kit-->Sally
Eomer-->Galadriel
Shasta-->Lottie
Mith-->Sally (2)
Legate-->Lottie
Lommie-->lottie (2)

[Thinlómien]

Lol now here's some Lommy-flip-flopping for you Galadriel.... ;) Generally I'm just bad at deciding/ tend to consider too many sides of issues.

Not sure what to make of me and Legate's cross-vote... Makes the situation quite anti-Lottie atm...


edit: xed with all

[Inziladun]

G55, you need plusses and bolding as well as highlighting.

[Galadriel55]

Votes:
Bom (Greenie)
Sally x2 (Kit, Mith)
G55 (Eomer)
Lottie x3 (Shasta, Legate, Lommy)
Lommy (me)

[Nogrod]

I see this has been decided while I was writing my last post. Let's check it.

++ Loslote

[Galadriel55]

G55, you need plusses and bolding as well as highlighting.

*smacks herself* Edited.

[Mithalwen]

Lommie? HAve I missed something or is that left field?... and is this a bandwaggon I see before me?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

>.<
Loslote
Galadriel55
Lommy
Kitanna
Bom

<3
Mith
Greenie
Eomer
Legate

???
Everyone else

Oh, dear, no time.

++Nilpaurion Felagund

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Not sure what to make of me and Legate's cross-vote... Makes the situation quite anti-Lottie atm...

What "to make of"? It's been cast, are you now questioning your vote, or what do you think?

[Inziladun]

++Nilpaurion Felagund

Highlights, sir!

EDIT- Never mind. Atta boy! :)

[Loslote]

Man, I've missed this. :p

[Nogrod]

Oh Nilp you're rusty. You are not even managing to kill yourself. Not only do you get not enough votes, but you make it in an improper manner...

[Galadriel55]

Lol now here's some Lommy-flip-flopping for you Galadriel.... ;) Generally I'm just bad at deciding/ tend to consider too many sides of issues.

Decisions, decisions... ;)

[Thinlómien]

Mith - I xed.
Legate - I was wondering how it will make the outcome of the day.

[satansaloser2005]

++Galadriel

[Inziladun]

DL. Silence.

[satansaloser2005]

Oh flipping come on. It took over a minute to post that?! >.<



Edit: x'd, sorry

[Inziladun]

Oh flipping come on. It took over a minute to post that?! >.<



Edit: x'd, sorry

You're excused, I suppose. ;)

Stand by for swift results.

And 4000 posts! *pats self on back* :D

[Inziladun]

Although the unlucky Venturers did not know exactly what had befallen, the meaning of Inziladun's scrawled final words seemed clear enough: some of their number had turned, or had been turned somehow to evil and murder. Long they debated about what their next course of action should be. They knew that they could count on no help from any quarter. The nearest friends of the Edain were the Elves of Lindon, but they did not know of the plight of the Númenóreans, and there was no means of communicating with them, even if the mariners had known exactly where they themselves were in relation to the coasts of Middle-earth. There was only one thing to do: the identities of the killers among them must be discovered, and the threat removed from the rest by killing them in turn. Then the arguments turned toward who among them was acting the most suspicious, or out of character. At the end of the day, it was decided that Loslote was the most likely to be evil. They determined to kill her by hanging, since trees were certainly in abundance, and rope from the wreck of the ship had washed ashore.
The preparations were made swiftly. The noose was placed around Loslote's neck, and she was made to stand upon some piled rocks. They were kicked out from under her, and the crowding sailors watched to see if some change would come upon the one they'd chosen.
As the body grew still, they were shocked to see a grey, misty figure emerge from it and float into the air. It seemed to point at them all, marking them with helpless malice. Then it seemed to simply melt away before their eyes in the light of the setting Sun, and the air was clean again.
Darkness covered the island once again.

The Living:

Bom Tombadillo
Nogrod
Shasta
Kitanna
G55
Sally
Eomer
Nerwen
Greenie
Lommy
Nilp
Mithalwen
Legate


The Dead:

Inziladun: (Mod)
Loslote: Evil Spirit

IT IS NOW NIGHT 2

Evildoers may PM. Those with picks send them in.

[Inziladun]

Shasta awoke in the night with a feeling of uneasiness.
His bedding place was atop a cliff out of sight of the Sea, though he could still hear it. Woods stood nearby, with ancient pine and fir trees. He looked around, and at first saw nothing. Then, as his eyes grew more accustomed to the dark, he thought he spied a figure standing about 20 yards away. When his gaze alighted on it, it rushed toward him, holding a massive rock over its head to cast down. Shasta had no weapons, but knew the would-be killer could not keep up with him, burdened as it was. He sprang to his feet, racing for the cover of the wood. There he might find a weapon of his own, as well as gain some cover. At the moment he entered, a second shape, having hidden silently as its mate ran the quarry its way, stabbed swiftly with its dagger. As Shasta fell to the ground, he heard its hissing laughter.


The Living:

Bom Tombadillo
Nogrod
Kitanna
G55
Sally
Eomer
Nerwen
Greenie
Lommy
Nilp
Mithalwen
Legate


The Dead:

Inziladun: (Mod) (killed by the baddies Night 1)
Loslote: Evil Spirit (lynched Day 1)
Shasta: Ordo (murdered by the evil ones Night 2)

IT IS DAY 2. You know what to do.

As a reminder, Nerwen and Bom make sure to vote toDay, or the consequences could be dire. ;)

[satansaloser2005]

No time to say much about yesterDay or last Night, but I wanted to post what I was meant to post when I voted (well, more or less). I'm sorry about the lateness of my vote yesterday. My phone decided to spazz out on me (the weather didn't help) and by the time I could get back to the Downs I only had time to vote, not explain. Grumble, grumble.


Anyway, Galadriel's clinging onto me makes me a bit suspicious of her, as I've previously stated, and then her vote for Lommie....what? It strikes me as quite a random and possibly evil thing to do, especially since it was a throwaway vote for someone who had barely been around (though I'll have to take a closer look before I make any more specific statements about it). I hadn't taken a good enough look at most other candidates, especially the sudden (but delightful, in retrospect!) Lottiewagon, so I just went with my gut. (Also, voting for Kit, while also going with my gut, would have been a throwaway, and thus useless.)


There we go. I made with the splainy. I feel all shiny now.

I'll post more later, but I have a pretty redheaded girl* coming for dinner. :Merisu:


*My cousin, numpkins.

[Kitanna]

Way back when I first modded Kitanna was right about just about everything and ignored and lynched. The village lost and it was a heavy loss. A serious player verily.
I remember that oh so well. 'twas my first game and no one gave me this so-called "newbie pass". Rather I was mercilessly killed on Day 2...if I ever see Morm on the street I'll shake my fist at him and scream "it was all your fault". Because of this I never give newbies a free ride because I'm a cranky and bitter young woman. :P

But I digress. I feel like I missed a lot yesterday after I voted. Sooo I'm going to have to reread the thread and go from there. For now I maintain my Sally is guilty stance. I noticed some buzz around Galadriel. I'll be looking at her and those who brought her up. Let's see where this takes me.

[Galadriel55]

What luck, Shasta! :(

However, on the bright side, one wolf down!!! :D I'm so not sorry now that my posts "hit her over the head like baby fish"! :p

Anyway, Galadriel's clinging onto me makes me a bit suspicious of her, as I've previously stated, and then her vote for Lommie....what? It strikes me as quite a random and possibly evil thing to do, especially since it was a throwaway vote for someone who had barely been around (though I'll have to take a closer look before I make any more specific statements about it).

When I voted I crossed with 2 other Lottie-votes and didn't edit to say so since time was precious and could not be wasted on such petty matters (Just like Sally's phone, my computer wanted to make my life difficult, and took about a minute to load the post-your-reply-page! >.<). When I voted it did not seem like a throwaway vote at all.

Why Lommy?

Lommy's posts are somewhat fishy - she has no opinions well into the Day, and decides to vote for Lottie as soon as Shasta casts suspicion on her, but then decides against it.

That was a very brief explanation. More stuff to add:

An hour before DL she still didn't have any solid opinions on anyone, which is quite strange, because there has been enough going on yesterDay. She said that "none of the arguments really convince" her in #128. She was very quick to jump on Shasta's reasoning - right he was to suspect Lottie as we know toDay, but how would I have known yesterDay? - in #140. Moreover, she was around for some time - less than I have, but still - and didn't post anything except for some shaky impressions. Unnaturally quiet as well, considering the heaps of information.

All that combined made me vote for her yesterDay.

I'm still thinking about this. She voted for Lottie (who we now know is a wolf), but apologises for it. Of course, that could be an innocent thinking she's going on a Lottiewagon, but it could be something much more sinister. I'm more inclined towards the former, but you never know!

ETA: I'll be back in some time after my brain digests everything.

[Kitanna]

I started with Galadriel simply because I know she garnered some attention, including some from Lottie.

1) First WW post ever
2) Comment to Nilp
3) Question to me about my joke post
4) Response to Sally
5) Directed at Nilp
Do you want me to vote you for jumping onto conclusions? There hardly have been any posts! (and come on, Lottie gave you a compliment, and you call her a wolf?! That's not nice!)
This doesn't have to mean anything outside of a joke, but it tickled me.
6) I don't think that Sally would have endangered herself that much in her first post if she has a special role. However, I see what you mean about Bom. He's really pushing a sallywagon, or trying to.
...
Kit is #2 on my suspision list, for saying that Bom is pushing a sallywagon and pushing it herself yet further.
...
The only explanation I could come up with is that you are a wolf who speaks while plotting who will be the first victim. And you're debating about Bom to make yourself look unconnected to him.
I find her coming to interesting conclusions. Certainly Bom could easily have been steering conversation to Sally, but that's not a bandwagon, nor did I accuse him of bandwagoning. She also says I was trying to start one on Sally while criticizing Bom. But what is more interesting is that she thinks we are cohorts debating openly during the Day. I can be stupid and foolish, but even I think that's a silly idea for wolves. It seems a strange conclusion to state, especially on Day 1. But that doesn't seem so strange of Galadriel, but her defense of Sally is odd. However, at this point in her posts she doesn't look too suspicious.
7) Nothing really, just asking people not to put off to the last hour. Responsible, but not entirely helpful.
8) Nothing helpful
9) Asks about Legate and Eomer, nothing helpful
10) This is interesting. Greenie made comments on Galadriel's suspicions and then turned out to "I'm not accusing them. I just want to keep on eye on them."
If in my reply to Kit I made it sound like a direct accusation, I didn't intend to
Looks to me like you believed Bom and I were wolves plotting against Sally. This preoccupation with Sally. I find it strange she changes her opinion after being confronted about them.
11) Nothing helpful
12) Says Sally seems like a cobbler, but not a wolf. Obviously there is no cobbler and I regret ever making the statement because it is a moot point.
13) Responds to Eomer and his vote for her. At one point before this point Sally says her defense of her is "scary", I wouldn't go that far. I can't see any reasoning from her why she's you're innocent and it's certainly a strange stance. At the point she defended you against Bom's mercy killing and my suspicions you hadn't said much. Scary? Not really. Odd? Yes.
Kit makes more sense to me now - after a couple more posts - but at that time she didn't.
I might be wrong (I'm only reading Galadriel's and Galadriel mentioned posts) but at this point some had stated they didn't want me dead on Day1. That means not many votes, if any, coming my way. She suspected me pretty heavily it looked like in her sixth post. Then after Greenie commented she started to change her tune. Now she's almost completely flipped on her stance toward me, while maintaining her suspicions of Bom.
Yes, seeing as I don't want you - an innocent in my books so far - be lynched.
This is actually more scary than anything she had said about Sally beforehand. I don't think there was a time when Sally was really in danger, especially right here. Most, if not wholly supportive of her, at least didn't see Sally as wolfish (myself excluded (my hat, dear Sally! :p)) so why worry she's going to get lynched?
14) Bom Tombadillo - spread suspicion and then disappeared. I wish he would post a bit more, and at least react somehow.
Nogrod - I need to reread his posts, as I'm having a hard time understanding some of his arguments. So far so good for the vibes.
Shasta - makes some good points (even though I don't agree with everything he says)
Kitanna - suspects Bom for suspecting Saly, but suspects Sally herself. First is inclined to vote for Bom, but changes her mind and votes Sally. Interesting (I'm not sure if it's in a good or a bad way...)
Sally - looks innocentish, but you've probably heard enough of that from me.
Eomer - no impression. Popped in to make a couple comments and to vote me.
Nerwen - as has been said before, guarded and careful. Too quiet. No impression.
Loslote - didn't say too many things either. No impression. A bit weird that she has nothing to say.
Greenie - doesn't think of Bom as very suspicious, yet vote for him. Also interesting.
Lommy - also not too many posts. Didn't comment a lot.
Nilp - where are you?
Legate - suspects Sally because I called her an innocent. Otherwise, looks good.
Mith avoided all the me-bom-kit-sally tangle. Didn't take sides. Didn't commit herself to anything. Made some fair points, but stayed aside.
I haven't decided what to make of this. It looks like her suspicions of Bom were dropped because he appears to be one of the only ones she doesn't offer up as innocentish or guilty.
15) Vote count
16) I could vote for Greenie, Eomer, Lommy, and possibly Nilp, but there has been limited participation from all of them...
Lommy's posts are somewhat fishy - she has no opinions well into the Day, and decides to vote for Lottie as soon as Shasta casts suspicion on her, but then decides against it. She will probably be my candidate.
I need to reread Lommy's posts before completely committing to an idea, but before she said she didn't find Eomer or Nilp. She makes somewhat of a case against Lommy in this post and had a little bit of one for Greenie previously. But what about the other two?
17) Votes Lommy
18) Vote count
19) Had forgotten to bold post, edited vote post
20) Nothing helpful
Day 2:
21) An hour before DL she still didn't have any solid opinions on anyone, which is quite strange, because there has been enough going on yesterDay. She said that "none of the arguments really convince" her in #128. She was very quick to jump on Shasta's reasoning - right he was to suspect Lottie as we know toDay, but how would I have known yesterDay? - in #140. Moreover, she was around for some time - less than I have, but still - and didn't post anything except for some shaky impressions. Unnaturally quiet as well, considering the heaps of information.
Reasons for voting Lommy
that could be an innocent thinking she's going on a Lottiewagon, but it could be something much more sinister. I'm more inclined towards the former, but you never know!
And now she's flip-flopped on Lommy.

What I find stranger than her belief in Sally's innocence is her flip-flopping. She makes one case and then once it is commented on by another she goes back on her suspicions. That strikes me has more sinister than thinking Sally is innocent, she wasn't the only one. She just seemed to be the only one who really made a headline of it.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

(Time are in UT. Known innocents italicised, known baddies underlined, person/s in the lead bolded.)

1857 Greenie (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657492&postcount=65) - Bom (Bom - 1)
2129 Kit (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657535&postcount=95) - Sally (Bom - 1, Sally - 1)
2141 Eomer (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657540&postcount=100) - G55 (Bom - 1, Sally - 1, G55 - 1)
2314 Shasta (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657590&postcount=139) - Lottie (Bom - 1, Sally - 1, G55 - 1, Lottie - 1)
2339 Mith (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657599&postcount=147) - Sally (Bom - 1, Sally - 2, G55 - 1, Lottie - 1)
2352 Leg (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657612&postcount=158) - Lottie (Bom - 1, Sally - 2, G55 - 1, Lottie - 2)
2353 Lommy (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657613&postcount=159) - Lottie (Bom - 1, Sally - 2, G55 - 1, Lottie - 3)
2354 G55 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657615&postcount=161) - Lommy (Bom - 1, Sally - 2, G55 - 1, Lottie - 3, Lommy - 1)
2356 Nog (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657622&postcount=168) - Lottie (Bom - 1, Sally - 2, G55 - 1, Lottie - 4, Lommy - 1)
2358 Nilp (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657625&postcount=171) - Nilp (Bom - 1, Sally - 2, G55 - 1, Lottie - 4, Lommy - 1, Nilp - 1)
0001 Sally (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657632&postcount=178) - G55 (Bom - 1, Sally - 2, G55 - 1, Lottie - 3, Lommy - 1, Nilp - 1) [did not count]

The following people look good due to their votes (in order of perceived innocence):
Shasta (The first stone. Um, yes, obviously, he's innocent. Might have been suspected as the Seer, resulting in his death.)


Lommy (The avalanche, part 2. Her suspicion of Lottie was somewhat less substantiated than those below. We have this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657534&postcount=94), then this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657591&postcount=140) after Shasta's Lottie-lysis (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657589&postcount=138). (Lysis, heh.) However, the timing of her vote puts her higher on the list; it would be funny if the she and Leg and Lottie were the wolfpack, and this 'oops crossvote' incident unintentionally killed one of them. But that would have been highly unlikely. Therefore she's the villager I trust the most, for now.)


Leg (The avalanche, part 1. This (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657544&postcount=104) is a fine piece of deduction, I must say--the baddies (who know more than any other villager) would fear saying too much, so they would post something that actually says nothing.)


Nog (The coup de grâce. He could have voted for Sally, putting her in a shared lead with Lottie; he even said that he had intended that here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657582&postcount=132). But he homed in on Lottie due to her slip regarding Kitanna (q.v. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657598&postcount=146)). There could be an element of someone knowing a little too much; which at this time, would point more to a baddie than the Seer, but not at this time.)


Now, I've put my doubts regarding their innocence cos there's a caveat to this list; I have myself in three instances offered fellow baddies to the lynch mob to obtain that cloak of feigned innocence--as our dearly departed InzilaMod might remember. Also, there's that matter of Mac sending two of his packmates to the gallows, foiling a post-double-lynching mathematical victory I (as the seer) have struggled to prepare.

However, they shall be quite low on my suspect list, unless the Seer should contradict me, or should they say something quite damning.

My suspects next. After finishing episode four of Madoka Magica. (Priorities!)

[Galadriel55]

I recall a few people suspecting Lottie earlier in the thread, some even said they intend to vote her, but none really making one solid argumentive "summarizing" case against her until Shasta did. Now where did that stroke of inspiration come on him? He was debating a bit about everyone, but more about me, sally, Kit, and Bom. In 134 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657584&postcount=#134) he considers voting [B]Sally/B], but wants more thought from her before a final decision. Then considers vote for Kit, but discards it because she'd be a throw-away.

Decides he'll analyze Lottie and does so in #138. Votes. More people follow.

The way I understood Shasta's post#134 is that Lottie wasn't his top priority, and that he'd rather vote for Kit, or possibly Sally. Interesting. But lucky that he voted Lottie. :)

Edit: xed with Kit and Nilp. Stupid computer freezing again.

[Nerwen]

No! My pearl!:(

Now, why Shasta, anyway?

On the face of it, this may seem a silly question: he did the most to get Wolflote lynched, and by that had made himself more-or-less unlynchable– along with possibly looking a bit Seer-ish.

However, looking at yesterDay's chaos of accusations, counter-accusations and passionate defences, it's interesting that apparently nobody looked more like the Seer to the wolves. Shasta's case on Lottie was built on in-game evidence– whereas, a good many players seemed ready to defend/suspect others at the drop of a hat.

EDIT:X'd since G55 at #186.

[Kitanna]

Shasta, Lommy Legate, and Nog all voted Lottie. I want to look at vote times to begin with and I won't be taking too hard a look at Shasta, I think he might have been seen as the seer and that's why he died. He was the first to vote Lottie. As for the rest looking at vote times Lommy and Legate voted within a minute of each other, if this wasn't the case I'd say Lommy could be guilty. Nog voted later and I think it was clear Lottie was going to die at this point. I'm not sure what to think of the surviving three voters. Time to scrutinize

Lommy:
1) Nothing really helpful, states confusion, out of WW mode, will return with clearer thoughts
2) Thinks Bom looks suspicious. Nog makes sense, but seems uptight, this doesn't mean guilt, could be RL issues. Doesn't understand my logic, but wouldn't vote for me. More inclined toward Sally's innocence. Greenie seems innocent. Most of the others she states to having no opinion.
3) Lottie goes down for being so squishy. She seems to have very little to say (well I know this might sound hypocritical but she's been involved for much longer toDay than me!)
Innocent viewpoint of Lottie. Something Galadriel pointed out as her reason for voting against her.
4) No arguments convince her.
So who I won't vote toDay:
Kitanna - too useful this far.
Nogrod - us agreeing made me think him innocent, and now that we don't agree so much anymore (his case on Sally etc) I still think he looks fairly good.
Sally - well I still think she is one of the players who tends to avoid declaring her innocence when evil.
Shasta - gives me innocent vibes.
Legate - hats off for clearing his head and using his time much better than me, and his way of argumenting seems pretty innocent this far.
What happened to Lottie? She thought her innocent...
5) Mmh. Tempted to follow Shasta's lead. He definitely didn't make Lottie sound too good.
Did a wolfy Lommy think Shasta could be the seer?
6) Talks to Lottie about her reasons for giving/ not giving Galadriel a newbie pass. Says Lottie is being confusing.
7) Seems like she's having a change of heart about Lottie.
8) Votes Lottie
9) Doesn't know what to make of her crosspost with Legate.
10) Legate - I was wondering how it will make the outcome of the day.
Did you think maybe voting for comrade Lottie wouldn't actually doom her? This is the most interesting and fiendish thing Lommy has said thus far.
Lommy certainly looks bad right about now. She says Lottie is innocent. She piggybacks on Shasta. She changes her mind again. She votes Lottie. And her statement to Legate in her tenth post just looks wrong.

Legate:
1) Doesn't necessarily accuse anyone. He does cast suspicion on Bom and me. But he doesn't get too in depth into accusing us either. Likewise he doesn't defend Sally, though he understands where she's coming from. He thinks Galadriel is reasonable and isn't too suspicious.
2) Lists his thoughts on everyone. He doesn't really pin down anyone, though it looks like Mith could be his front runner based on her "I agree with so-so and about blah-de-blah" attitude. He also comments on Mith's suspicions of people who are unclear on the rules.
3) Seems to come to an understanding of what Mith was saying about the rules. He doesn't exactly agree with her viewpoint, but he doesn't completely disagree that it is out of the range of possibilities. He thinks some of what I say about Sally could be applied elsewhere (rambling posts specifically), but says other arguments might be "more valid", he doesn't say what ones those are. Sees Nog as innocent so far.
4) Says Lottie could well be his vote. He also questions what Lommy said of myself and Sally. I think (I'm confused by his wording) that he doesn't think Lommy has evil intentions. Asks a question of Sally.
5) Sees Mith as more innocent. Questions Lottie's motives against Galadriel. He questions Sally and her innocent because of how she doesn't like Galadriel backing her. This is his only suspicion of Sally.
6) Didn't see too much usefulness here.
7) Starts to suspect Sally for her last few points. Analyzes the posts in question.
8) Shasta looks good, Sally doesn't.
9) Response to Sally.
10) Red zone:
Sally
Loslote

Orange zone:
Bom Tom
Kitanna

Yellow zone:
G55
Eomer
Lommy

Green zone:
Nogrod
Shasta
Mith

Grey zone - not enough data:
Nerwen
Greenie
Nilp
Is staying pretty consistent in his suspicions.
11) Response to Nog.
12) Trying to decide between Sally or Lottie.
13) Votes Lottie
14) Asks Lommy is she is questioning her vote
So Legate doesn't look too bad to me. He speaks sense and stays consistent rather than jumping here and there, backing down from suspicions.

Suspects thus far:
Galadriel: A lot was said of her "backing" Sally, but that doesn't me. Rather she backs away from something when someone else contradicts or questions it. First she accuses Bom and I of tag teaming and trying to get a Sallywagon going. Then Greenie says something and all of a sudden she's "not accusing, just watching" us. She flip-flops and tries to be sly in her observations.

Lommy: She was all about believing Lottie was innocent, essentially with no reasoning. Then Shasta casts a shadow and suddenly there's Lommy ready to get Lottie out of the picture. This could well be a wolf move. My packmate is in trouble, I should vote for them now when it's still anyone's Day. If she dies I look innocent. What's more unsettling is her comment about how her cross post with Legate "will affect the outcome". That's is possibly the most sinister thing I've read so far.

Sally: Oh that's right. Most of my reasons have been outlined, but I find it unsettling that Sally has latched onto Galadriel's defense of her. It's possible (I haven't done a count) but she may well have brought up Galadriel's defense more than Galadriel actually said she thought she was innocent. That seems a bit like she's trying too hard to get us to look at Galadriel. Of course if Galadriel is a wolf I have to surrender my beliefs that Sally is a fanged menace. This goes the other way too. If Sally is evil than I'm hard pressed to believe Galadriel is.

My house is essentially a giant oven right now. It's becoming hard to focus which is why my analysis of Legate kept getting shorter. I'm probably going to be absent for a few hours. When I return I want to finish up looking at Nog (the final Lottie vote), look at Mith (something has seemed strange with her posts, but I don't know what), and of course look at Lottie herself.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Hm, hum, my head has this light-flashy thing moment going on.

[Galadriel55]

What happened to my post? Drat this stupid pile of metal that I'm typing at! I've written an essay and it swallowed it whole!!! :(:eek::mad:

(I replied to Kit's analysis about me and added some of my own points)

Do I have to start typing again?... Ok, I'll try to retype it, but I'm going to sound very angry (you know the reason).

[Galadriel55]

I've spent an hour typing something imilar, except that it was much better and now I forgot half the points I wanted to make. All thanks to my ************** computer.


I find her coming to interesting conclusions. Certainly Bom could easily have been steering conversation to Sally, but that's not a bandwagon, nor did I accuse him of bandwagoning.

Can't really be a legitimate bandwgon on one of the first posts, can there? But it can become one if others join onto it. One post can't be called a bandwagon, but it can be starting one.

As you said yourself,

..simply killing her because she's going to die seems pretty wolfish.

And a wolf kills by Day by means of getting others to vote for their victim, right?

She also says I was trying to start one on Sally while criticizing Bom.

Firstly, continue would be a better word here than start. Secondly, as has been said and mulled over many times before, suspecting Bom for going against Sally while going against her yourself is odd.

But what is more interesting is that she thinks we are cohorts debating openly during the Day.

Wolf-on-wolf, as I was reminded when in a latter post I said that if you are wolves probably not together.

But that doesn't seem so strange of Galadriel, but her defense of Sally is odd.

I have nothing against that sentence except that I can't understand it (my brain is screaming "bedtime!"). Can you please rephrase it?

I might be wrong (I'm only reading Galadriel's and Galadriel mentioned posts) but at this point some had stated they didn't want me dead on Day1. That means not many votes, if any, coming my way. She suspected me pretty heavily it looked like in her sixth post. Then after Greenie commented she started to change her tune. Now she's almost completely flipped on her stance toward me, while maintaining her suspicions of Bom.

While maintaining less serious suspicions on both of you. There weren't that many people to be suspicious about at that time (why would I put a person who hasn't posted yet on my suspicion list?), and out of those people you two were the most suspicious. Now you aren't. But that doesn't mean I flipped on either of you.

I have a question for you, Kit. Why did you find these posts suspicious only after many other people commented on them in the same way?

It looks like her suspicions of Bom were dropped because he appears to be one of the only ones she doesn't offer up as innocentish or guilty.

Not completely dropped, but rather lowered, since there are now more players who posted, and more people to suspect, etcetc you've heard it all above.

before she said she didn't find Eomer or Nilp. She makes somewhat of a case against Lommy in this post and had a little bit of one for Greenie previously. But what about the other two?

I haven't got a read on Eomer. I considered voting him (very briefly, not too seriously, and only out of spite) because he voted me...

And now she's flip-flopped on Lommy.

It's a new Day, I have more information. Why can't I use it?

What I find stranger than her belief in Sally's innocence is her flip-flopping. She makes one case and then once it is commented on by another she goes back on her suspicions.

Look at yourself! First you had Bom at the top, but then you voted Sally, after some people chewed everything over and thought your behaviour hypocritical.


I'm sorry if that sounded irritable. Blame it on the good for nothing computer I'm typing on.

I'm so tired now all my notes and thoughts will have to wait until tomorrow (RL). *yawns*

[satansaloser2005]

I'm sorry to do this, but my lovely guest has just left and I'm exhausted, so I'm turning in(to what, you may ask? :p) for the night. I'll be back with thoughts in the morning.

[Nerwen]

Galadriel: A lot was said of her "backing" Sally, but that doesn't me. Rather she backs away from something when someone else contradicts or questions it. First she accuses Bom and I of tag teaming and trying to get a Sallywagon going. Then Greenie says something and all of a sudden she's "not accusing, just watching" us. She flip-flops and tries to be sly in her observations.

Lommy: She was all about believing Lottie was innocent, essentially with no reasoning. Then Shasta casts a shadow and suddenly there's Lommy ready to get Lottie out of the picture. This could well be a wolf move. My packmate is in trouble, I should vote for them now when it's still anyone's Day. If she dies I look innocent. What's more unsettling is her comment about how her cross post with Legate "will affect the outcome". That's is possibly the most sinister thing I've read so far.

Sally: Oh that's right. Most of my reasons have been outlined, but I find it unsettling that Sally has latched onto Galadriel's defense of her. It's possible (I haven't done a count) but she may well have brought up Galadriel's defense more than Galadriel actually said she thought she was innocent. That seems a bit like she's trying too hard to get us to look at Galadriel. Of course if Galadriel is a wolf I have to surrender my beliefs that Sally is a fanged menace. This goes the other way too. If Sally is evil than I'm hard pressed to believe Galadriel is.

Actually, some of Sally's reaction to G55 could be a wolf trying to distance herself from a cub who's been too quick to defend her. It would fit that pattern quite well in fact. However, as you say, she did press it further than would be needed– so if they're in it together, it would mean Sallywolf was trying to bus her newbie comrade for little reason.

More importantly, though, we also have a known wolf to look at, and G55 happens to be the only person that wolf went after.

So, the key question, then is: how likely is it that Wolflote would make a wolf-on-wolf attack on Wolf55 at that point and in that way?

To quote Shasta at #138:

Lottie has set herself up today so that really the only person she can vote is Gala (she hasn't evidenced suspicion on anyone else); which, when combined with all that about "oh I'll feel so bad if she's lynched" and giving her a newbie-pass, really makes me raise both eyebrows. Lottie looks extremely contradictory.

Again, it would be more than just a token wolf-on-wolf suspicion– and again, oddly gratuitous.

It's perhaps more likely Wolflote would go strongly after a newbie comrade than Sallywolf, simply because Lottie tends to be very pessimistic about her own chances of survival– she might have reasoned that ione or other of them would probably die early anyway, and thus that a real wolf-on-wolf attack was the best bet. All the same, it's most unusual for a wolf to give herself no other option but voting a comrade.

Not much to say about Lommy, except to concur that her Legate-180 on Wolflote is peculiar (even coming from the Queen of Flip-floppers).

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I'm mildly surprised no-one thought I was a Seer due to my jocular accusation of Lottie. ;)

I'm still getting all these strange vibes from Kitanna. Surprising, I know, me listening to vibes instead of the voting pattern and intentions. Well, there's her intention of building interesting cases--the Sally-and-Bom-lyses yesterDAY (q.v. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657447&postcount=41)) was mildly suspicious already, and sinking her hooks on a voted-for-a-known-baddie Lommy (q.v. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657689&postcount=191)) is strongly so. (Unless the metagame has strongly shifted towards fatal wolf-on-wolf voting? In which case the analysis would not be unfounded. Meh, but I wouldn't know the metagame right now.)

My suspicions of her are reinforced by the fact that Shasta, the baddies's most probable Seer-suspect, has said this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657559&postcount=113) of her and then said that he suspected her (q.v. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657584&postcount=134)) before he died. (Which reminds me; I need to do a Shasta-lysis.)

Greenie (<3) has, in her few posts, gone deep into an analysis of the posts so far and found a few gems worth consideration (q.v. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657472&postcount=51)). So, hug.

Mith and Eomer were doing pushes and probes to get some discussion going, to make DAY 1 less random than usual. More hugs.

My thoughts on ThinLegate and Nog have already been covered above. Group hug.

About the rest I still feel somewhat equivocal: G55 feels like a confused Ordo (but baddies like that cloak, so meh) and Sally-chan is always insane. Nerwen seems to have a jammer against my sensors (I can never seem to read her) and Bom is missing.

Did I miss anyone?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

21 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657409&postcount=21):
I kind of don't even want to post until people have gotten this out of their system, but I am in fact aware the game has started. I'm excited - we've gone too long without a game of WW on the 'Downs.

23 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657412&postcount=23): Banter w/ G55

37 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657436&postcount=37): Answers Mith's query (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657425&postcount=30) regarding his reluctance to post: he was once killed on DAY 1 (as a Seer, ooh).

Comments on the 'only game-related thing thus far,' which is Bom's infamous statement re Sally's earlier infamous stament and Nerwen's comment about it. Has nothing to say about it, except asking Bom for an explanation.

113 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657559&postcount=113): Elaborates his thoughts on Bom's post: a joke that could be used as a casus voting.

Comments on Kit's analysis of Sally's infamous statement. His summary:
I'm a little confused - Kitanna's suspicious are Sally and Bom, and she seems to be suspicious of Bom for being ready to vote Sally, which to me seems a bit counter-intuitive.

Does a preliminary analysis of Sally, but remains unsure of her.

Comments on G55's statements re Kit and Bom, and he does not agree that both are baddies.

Asks Greenie regarding her thoughts on Nerwen:
Greenie, you've called Nerwen "careful" and "neutral" twice now. Do you suspect her, or not?

Agrees with Mith's assessment of Sally's infamous statement: it's not helpful for whichever side Sally's in.

Agrees with Eomer's assessment of the jump on Bom's infamous statement: 'bewildering'.

Agrees with Nog's assessment of Greenie:
[ . . . ]I find it odd Greenie makes some sense saying that what Bom said looked more like "this is what I'm going to do unless there is a better option" and not "there is our wolf, let's lynch her together now". But then she went on and voted for him. (Nogrod)

Has never 'seen Lommy so decisive! Especially on Day 1! Something to consider...' (He referred to a post 79 of hers, which actually was Kit's :confused: )

Disagrees with Eomer; he finds Kit's accusation of Sally and Bom 'hypocritical'.

117 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657564&postcount=117): Agrees with Leg's assessment of one of Sally's statement (where she said she suspects G55.) He found it 'odd'.

118 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657565&postcount=118): Banter.

121 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657569&postcount=121): A little correction of his statement re Sally as dead ordo and village defeat.

122 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657571&postcount=122): Banter. (I want beta-readers, too, also. :( )

134 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657584&postcount=134): Thinks that Sally is more innocent than baddie based on feel instead of content (but would want more content from her).

Says that he could vote for Kitanna, couldn't vote for Bom, but decides to look at Lottie.

138 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657589&postcount=138): The Lottie-lysis. She was, according to her, contradictory in the way she dealt with G55; she said she didn't want to vote for her, but piled suspicion upon her nonetheless.

139 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657590&postcount=139): Votes for Lottie on the basis of his previous analysis.

144 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657596&postcount=144): Repeats his analysis of Lottie.


CONCLUSION
(i.e., what the baddies might have seen):

He was at first more inclined to vote for Kitanna before his Lottie-lysis. Both cases have been built on analysis of their post, so there was not a trace of Sight detectable in it.

He was unsure of Sally, suspected her a bit, then decided she was more innocent based on feel, which does indicate a trace of Sight. Also, the way he flip-flopped (so to speak) about her may be construed as an attempt to hide his sureness of her role.

Either the baddies thought him someone who dreamt of one of their kin, or dreamt of an innocent Sally (which the baddies might have been trying to get lynched).

However, I'm slightly more inclined to think that they thought that he was just too sharp (which he seem to have a reputation of.)

(His interactions with the other are somewhat too insignificant to address at this time.)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Nilp posted:

"A word of advice, mum:

1) Listen to your first instincts; and
2) Never listen to known baddies.

The Trio of Evil is complete!
•Sally
•Loslote
•Shasta

Would anyone wish to cast the first vote?"

To which Loslote replied:

Love to, but I'd also love to catch wolves, and I fear there might be a conflict of interest. ;)

???

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm here! And I have First Impressions. :D

Sally is probably my dear sweet cupcake, and I would not like to lynch her toDay at all.

Bom is a dear sweet newish player who, from what little he's posted, sounds like last game when he was innocent. I'd like to leave him be, too.

Galadriel's posts hit me over the head a little like a baby fish, but it's her first game ever, so she gets a newbie pass out of the category of "say what now".

Kit's post I saw and instantly "whaaaaaaat"ed because I forgot she was playing in this game. But I don't know how to read her yet, I just wanted to mention that.

The rest of you I've got no real impressions on yet. More noise-making, please! ;)

Edit: Xed with two Sallys

Sally and G55 seem completely intent on making people suspicious of them; again today, pretty much soon as Inzil opens the new day, both of them are posting and defending their votes. Here we have Loslote defending both of them yesterday.

I promise not to just pick on you two but you both worry me quite a bit! :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am around only for a brief entry, will be away then and around only for the somewhat later part of the Day...

Opening with a random remark:
I remember that oh so well. 'twas my first game and no one gave me this so-called "newbie pass". Rather I was mercilessly killed on Day 2...
But newbie passes usually go only for Day 1. Relatedly, this also means that I am no longer bound by it when it comes to voting newbies ;)

Now, to the other stuff - as for why Shasta died, I would not dare to say anything definite, but I would incline to what Nilp said:
However, I'm slightly more inclined to think that they thought that he was just too sharp (which he seem to have a reputation of.)
He was also simply the first one in the row of Lottie-voters, and this time all of them look rather innocent, so killing one of them was probably a good option.

As for the Lottie-voters themselves, I am not very suspicious of them (especially as I am one of them too, "Of course I know him! He's me!"). Nog, as the "last nail", does not make very much of a sense for a W-on-W vote (okay, it can be, but the voting yesterDay was interesting in that quite many people did not vote, or voted rather randomly in the last few minutes). And I don't really think Lommy is a Wolf either, despite what e.g. Kitanna says. The comment "now wondering how the outcome..." she cleared for me already yesterDay and I can understand it the way she had put it, simply having second thoughts now that suddenly one finds herself a part of a huge (or, "huge") bandwagon - that of course can make one wonder "did I fall into some Wolvish trap of a bandwagon for innocent?" (especially as there doesn't seem to be any worthy contesting bandwagon!). I mean, a Wolf, seeing her friend lynched, would not suddenly come out shouting "oh my, I wonder how this is going to end!", but rather stay quiet. What good will it bring to her? Therefore, I really see all Lottie-voters rather okay for the time being.

I have grown a bit unsure about Galadriel toDay, because of her rather strongly defensive posting. I mean, it is mostly just defense. Sure, there are some accusations or suspicions from Kitanna and such, but her first post toDay starts with defense of her actions yesterDay - was it necessary? Or does she just feel over-threatened? "When I voted it did not seem like a throwaway vote at all." And then explanation. Was it necessary?

And the vague suspicion of Lommy also seems to me quite odd. Also, clinging to it toDay might be an attempt to appear consistent. This:

I'm still thinking about this. She voted for Lottie (who we now know is a wolf), but apologises for it. Of course, that could be an innocent thinking she's going on a Lottiewagon, but it could be something much more sinister. I'm more inclined towards the former, but you never know!
as you can notice, ends with the typical "of course, it is... but maybe it is... but you never know!" Vague without saying much. I think I will be watching G55 toDay rather closely.

Also her analysis of the Shasta-case:
I recall a few people suspecting Lottie earlier in the thread, some even said they intend to vote her, but none really making one solid argumentive "summarizing" case against her until Shasta did. Now where did that stroke of inspiration come on him? He was debating a bit about everyone, but more about me, sally, Kit, and Bom. In 134 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657584&postcount=#134) he considers voting [B]Sally/B], but wants more thought from her before a final decision. Then considers vote for Kit, but discards it because she'd be a throw-away.

Decides he'll analyze Lottie and does so in #138. Votes. More people follow.

The way I understood Shasta's post#134 is that Lottie wasn't his top priority, and that he'd rather vote for Kit, or possibly Sally. Interesting. But lucky that he voted Lottie. :)
sounds like something she could have come up together with her packmate at Night, and the "but lucky that he voted Lottie" sounds just false - random - weird ending of it all. "Interesting" and all that, why to say that? I would have almost expected it ending "...Lottie wasn't his top priority, but he voted her, which is interesting. Therefore, we have decided he was the Seer and killed him." and now she just replaced it by the "lucky that he voted Lottie" for the public reading.

More importantly, though, we also have a known wolf to look at, and G55 happens to be the only person that wolf went after.

So, the key question, then is: how likely is it that Wolflote would make a wolf-on-wolf attack on Wolf55 at that point and in that way?
Valid question. Unfortunately, right now I don't have time to write more about that, and I shall be back at the computer only later during the Day. But I can try to think about that.

So, I'll be back later. For the time being, to summarise - I think Nog and Lommy are innocent, and I am watchful of G55, and also from the impressions of their posting, Nilp looks rather good and Nerwen maybe too. Hope to see other not-so-much-clear-posters posting around toDay too.

EDIT: x-ed with all Eomers. He's exactly one of those I would like to get a clearer picture of...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The G55/ Loslote relationship is interesting.

I shouldn't let my suspicions of G55 conceal the likelihood that the evil Loslote voted for an innocent villager on Day One. So you've definitely got that going for you. ;)

But because I'm suspicious of her, it looks to me like Loslote kind of backed herself into a corner when it came to her vote choice. She first defended G55 (I quoted the post above), but then mentioned her as a suspect - I believe after I (and Sally!) had raised questions about G55. I know as a wolf it can be hard to come up with reasonable assessments of villagers and it looks like Loslote simply failed to do it - she maybe ran out of time. Either way, she ended up with only G55 as a possible vote.

But she did put herself at pains to sway other people from voting G55, repeating over and over that she felt bad about voting G55 on her first day of Werewolf.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

EDIT: x-ed with all Eomers. He's exactly one of those I would like to get a clearer picture of...

You ought to know by now, Legate, that no-one can ever get a clear picture of me!

I'll need to go and check that Lommy case again, as it looked interesting. You seem quite certain of her innocence but then I suppose you would know more than us. :p

[Nogrod]

Just a quick one here, more later when I have time to look at this properly.

It is interesting that Kit decided to concentrate her effort toDay (well, thus far) into close-reading those who got LottieWolf lynched. Now wolf-on-wolf votes do happen every now and then and I'm not suggesting some people should be made immune or putting them beyond suspicion just because they voted / lynched a wolf. But Kit's priorities look interesting: like she wishes to turn the discussion away form somewhere else?

Another interesting thing. Lottie tends to get lynched on D1 more often than the average player. Therefore I was not suspicious of her at first when the suspicions started to gather around her as I thoguht it's just her normal "looking suspicious" -behaviour - and I have been lynching her on D1's quite a few times already. But then I saw that slip regarding Kitanna - and that really started to make me suspect her for real.

Now if I'm right about it, that I suspected Lottie from the correct reason, then it would point to Kitanna being a second baddie.

So, for the two reasons given here, I see my eyes focusing toward Kit toDay. I'll try to take a closer look on her posting as I come back.


But anyway, we had a great Day yesterDay even if it looked a bit mild and lazy for the first 20 hours... but the last four hours rocked! :cool:

[Mithalwen]

Hello, I am now around but I may not be very active til later - have been a little unwell overnight and not feeling quite the ticket yet. However v impressed by the amount there is to read .though I haven't quite grasped the detail yet. There are certainly some interesting interractions.

Just as a by the way before I get down to digesting the analyses (and Mithalwen's second law of werewolf is to check such things for wolf may lurk therein - some are faux helpful rather than faux-naif).

I would point out that this fascinating little Ranger twist (dont' remember anything quite like it in games I have played),means that while in ranger games the wolves will always have weigh the risk of not getting a kill against trying to get the players most dangerous to them out of the way - and if there are readable seer hints it will alert both Ranger and wolves potentially. This game there is the risk that one of them will die as well as not getting the desired kill. Dependent on how likely the surviving wolves feel any potential Seer is to have dreamt of them early they may think that risking another dream and getting a more certain kill is a better path than going for the most obvious first and possibly starting day 2 down to a lone wolf (even with seer/ranger out of the way). OK that was a verbose way of saying that the choice of Shasta may not be of major significance.

[Thinlómien]

I think we got quite lucky with Lottie - at least I didn't suspect her very seriously and voting her was partly laziness of thought from my part. Either way, I'm glad we are one wolf down already. Now we can safely fail a few Days. ;)

Shasta the seer suspect? The obvious conclusion is that the wolves thought him to have dreamt of Lottie. However, like others have pointed out, it's curious why the wolves picked exactly this kill - was it fear of the ranger like Mith suggests or were all the other suspicions/trusts standing out just way off?

Also, someone implied Lottie, Sally and G55 trio? Huh, that would be totally insane. :D

Now off to reply to some points from toDay...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

[ . . . ]I would point out that this fascinating little Ranger twist (dont' remember anything quite like it in games I have played),means that while in ranger games the wolves will always have weigh the risk of not getting a kill against trying to get the players most dangerous to them out of the way - and if there are readable seer hints it will alert both Ranger and wolves potentially. This game there is the risk that one of them will die as well as not getting the desired kill. Dependent on how likely the surviving wolves feel any potential Seer is to have dreamt of them early they may think that risking another dream and getting a more certain kill is a better path than going for the most obvious first and possibly starting day 2 down to a lone wolf (even with seer/ranger out of the way). OK that was a verbose way of saying that the choice of Shasta may not be of major significance.When I grow up, I wanna be as smart as my Mummie.

(Trans: That's something I haven't thought of. Heh.)

[Nerwen]

It is interesting that Kit decided to concentrate her effort toDay (well, thus far) into close-reading those who got LottieWolf lynched. Now wolf-on-wolf votes do happen every now and then and I'm not suggesting some people should be made immune or putting them beyond suspicion just because they voted / lynched a wolf. But Kit's priorities look interesting: like she wishes to turn the discussion away form somewhere else?

Another interesting thing. Lottie tends to get lynched on D1 more often than the average player. Therefore I was not suspicious of her at first when the suspicions started to gather around her as I thoguht it's just her normal "looking suspicious" -behaviour - and I have been lynching her on D1's quite a few times already. But then I saw that slip regarding Kitanna - and that really started to make me suspect her for real.

Now if I'm right about it, that I suspected Lottie from the correct reason, then it would point to Kitanna being a second baddie.

Are you talking about Lottie's claim that she "didn't know Kit was playing"? I don't know– it was, of course, suspicious, with hindsight– but it might have been meant as a more general "look at me, I'm a clueless innocent" ploy, rather than having anything to do with Kit herself. On the other hand (or paw) Lottie did make quite a point of it: at #106 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=657548&postcount=106) she says, Did I miss something? I could well have - I totally forgot Kit was playing at all, I might have forgotten there was a cobbler, too...

Originally Posted by Mithalwen
[ . . . ]I would point out that this fascinating little Ranger twist (dont' remember anything quite like it in games I have played),means that while in ranger games the wolves will always have weigh the risk of not getting a kill against trying to get the players most dangerous to them out of the way - and if there are readable seer hints it will alert both Ranger and wolves potentially. This game there is the risk that one of them will die as well as not getting the desired kill. Dependent on how likely the surviving wolves feel any potential Seer is to have dreamt of them early they may think that risking another dream and getting a more certain kill is a better path than going for the most obvious first and possibly starting day 2 down to a lone wolf (even with seer/ranger out of the way). OK that was a verbose way of saying that the choice of Shasta may not be of major significance.
When I grow up, I wanna be as smart as my Mummie.

(Trans: That's something I haven't thought of. Heh.)

Seconded. That would explain a few things– it's been suggested the wolves thought Shasta was the Seer because of his case on Lottie and/or comments about Sally, but I find that unlikely (unless they panicked). It's just so hard not to think of getting the Seer as the lupine priority.

[Thinlómien]

´An hour before DL she still didn't have any solid opinions on anyone, which is quite strange, because there has been enough going on yesterDay. She said that "none of the arguments really convince" her in #128. She was very quick to jump on Shasta's reasoning - right he was to suspect Lottie as we know toDay, but how would I have known yesterDay? - in #140. Moreover, she was around for some time - less than I have, but still - and didn't post anything except for some shaky impressions. Unnaturally quiet as well, considering the heaps of information.To tell you the truth, I came around way too late yesterDay, my brain was totally not on ww mode (I last played in January or February?) and I was distracting myself with other stuff and failing to concentrate on the game as much as it would have deserved. This all explains my (admittedly) poor performance yesterDay, but like I've said, it will be improved toDay. I was somewhat suspicious of Lottie (if I recall correctly I was suspecting her and Eomer the most) but had no real proof for it so I was really happy to jump on Shasta's reasonable-seeming case of her - I desperately needed to suspect someone a bit more seriously with the deadline and the necessity to vote looming rather close. It was not very "professional" but it's the truth about what happened.

I'm still thinking about this. She voted for Lottie (who we now know is a wolf), but apologises for it. Of course, that could be an innocent thinking she's going on a Lottiewagon, but it could be something much more sinister. I'm more inclined towards the former, but you never know!I felt like apologising a little because I considered my own reasoning shoddy (based on a not-so-strong gut-feeling and someone else's arguments) as well as that I was lacking the conviction to really want anybody dead at that point and especially because Lottie with her controversial manner is so often the obvious choice for lazy thinkers on Day1.

Kit - I don't understand how you can read my posts and reach the conclusion that I thought Lottie was innocent at any point. I had to check as it perplexed me that you said that: I most definitely first said I'm unsure (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=657526#post657526), then thought she looks worse (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=657534#post657534)for being squishy, then named her and Eomer my feeble top suspects (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=657578#post657578)and after Shasta made his case kind of seriously started to suspect her. (And yes, I had a moment of doubt when she posted a reaction that seemed innocent to me but then I decided she was still my best bet and voted her.)

Has never 'seen Lommy so decisive! Especially on Day 1! Something to consider...' (He referred to a post 79 of hers, which actually was Kit's )I believe he referred to my rather waffly post a few post before Kit's and was being sarcastic.

It is interesting that Kit decided to concentrate her effort toDay (well, thus far) into close-reading those who got LottieWolf lynched. Now wolf-on-wolf votes do happen every now and then and I'm not suggesting some people should be made immune or putting them beyond suspicion just because they voted / lynched a wolf. But Kit's priorities look interesting: like she wishes to turn the discussion away form somewhere else?Interesting observation, but I cannot fathom what she'd be so desperate to steer the discussion away from, unless she and G55 or Sally are the remaining wolves (then she definitely would like to present new targets, but if I recall correctly, her interactions with the two don't really look like that). I have to agree though that when a wolf was lynched, it is rather funny to start eyeing those who lynched her suspiciously - it doesn't seem very much like innocent logic. I mean, an innocent would want to pose the question "did anybody try to defend/save Lottie?" first (I imagine), while a wolf is more likely to go down the "let's analyse the bandwagon" path because she doesn't have to figure out who's evil and who's not.

Are you talking about Lottie's claim that she "didn't know Kit was playing"? I don't know– it was, of course, suspicious, with hindsight– but it might have been meant as a more general "look at me, I'm a clueless innocent" ploy, rather than having anything to do with Kit herself. On the other hand (or paw) Lottie did make quite a point of it: at #106 she says, Did I miss something? I could well have - I totally forgot Kit was playing at all, I might have forgotten there was a cobbler, too...I have to say that as a wolf I have a few times been tempted to make a list and intentionally omit a fellow from there and claim it was an accident (as I accidentally omit people every now and then) to seem less like fellows, but I always decided not to do it because it felt dishonest. So Lottie's Kitanna comment seems interesting to me, because I know from personal experience it's something that could occur to a wolf but on the other hand I'm not sure if Lottiewolf would like to lie intentionally any more than mewolf...

I would point out that this fascinating little Ranger twist (dont' remember anything quite like it in games I have played),means that while in ranger games the wolves will always have weigh the risk of not getting a kill against trying to get the players most dangerous to them out of the way - and if there are readable seer hints it will alert both Ranger and wolves potentially. This game there is the risk that one of them will die as well as not getting the desired kill. Dependent on how likely the surviving wolves feel any potential Seer is to have dreamt of them early they may think that risking another dream and getting a more certain kill is a better path than going for the most obvious first and possibly starting day 2 down to a lone wolf (even with seer/ranger out of the way). OK that was a verbose way of saying that the choice of Shasta may not be of major significance.Now this passage seemed rather fishy to me. Don't get me wrong, it's good to try to get into the wolves' heads and try to reconstruct their thinking and she's making sense, but this is rather complicated especially as Mith implied she's not at the height of her brainpower at the moment. Ok, even if we allow that even a Mith with not the best of her brainpower can come up with advanced wolf thinking theories there's still the most eyebrow-raising part: the last sentence. It really looks like Wolf Mith wrote her genuine thoughts there and then to downplay her complicated thinking by saying it was just a verbiose way of saying that the choice of Shasta might not be so significant.

[Mithalwen]

No it was just the coffee was kicking in and having read through to make sure it made some kind of sense I realised that is what it boiled down to.I was trying ot make it clear having been queried on my mention that it is suspicious not to know the rules theory which seemed quite obvious to me.:rolleyes:

I was thinking about the significance of the Ranger issue yesterday as I mentioned in one of the posts. I was up to the rather simple task of relating actual events to previously considered hypostheses on the game structure in my fragile state. What I wasn't up to but am going to try is to try and sort out the far more complex webs of interactions and analyses thereof .

[Nerwen]

Interesting observation, but I cannot fathom what she'd be so desperate to steer the discussion away from, unless she and G55 or Sally are the remaining wolves (then she definitely would like to present new targets, but if I recall correctly, her interactions with the two don't really look like that). I have to agree though that when a wolf was lynched, it is rather funny to start eyeing those who lynched her suspiciously - it doesn't seem very much like innocent logic. I mean, an innocent would want to pose the question "did anybody try to defend/save Lottie?" first (I imagine), while a wolf is more likely to go down the "let's analyse the bandwagon" path because she doesn't have to figure out who's evil and who's not.
I'm never terribly fond of the "good-votes-are-really-bad-votes" meme myself. I seem to recall times it's got so out of hand that the baddies could quite openly go after the very people who'd helped take one of them down.

Still, you must admit it has often been the case that a wolf jumps on the bandwaggon. With last Night's, I suppose it would most likely be you (thought Seer-Shasta had dreamed Lottie) or Nog (just throwing his hands up). That said, the dynamics of yesterDay aren't the kind where you can say there definitely had to be wolf-on-wolf voting... so it's a bit of a dead end at the moment.

[Galadriel55]

again today, pretty much soon as Inzil opens the new day, both of them are posting and defending their votes.

Because neither of us did it properly yesterDay. If all the Lottie-lynchers could just say "what Shasta said" and vote, my vote had to be explained, especially because I didn't comment too much on Lommy before.

Here we have Loslote defending both of them yesterday.

Lottie defended me? She didn't vote me (for whatever reason. I mean, Eomer did, and later Sally), but she seemed to suspect me quite strongly! I was the only person she had anything to say about.

I promise not to just pick on you two but you both worry me quite a bit! :p

I seem to worry everyone qite a bit... :P and so does Sally...

I have grown a bit unsure about Galadriel toDay, because of her rather strongly defensive posting. I mean, it is mostly just defense. Sure, there are some accusations or suspicions from Kitanna and such, but her first post toDay starts with defense of her actions yesterDay - was it necessary? Or does she just feel over-threatened?

Yesterday in RL I was so tired I could barely finish that reply to Kit, and I said that all of my own thoughts and notes will wait till today.

I'm doing it again, aren't I? :rolleyes:



OK, so something of content. Finally.

Suspicions of Kit go up. She suspected quite a few of my posts in her ananysis basically repeating the general attitude only after everybody else said pretty much the same thing. Before (when she debated Sally and Bom further) there wasn't anything fishy enough about them. Not enough to comment, at any rate.

An approximate timeline (only the relevant posts)

Kit makes the posts suspecting both Bom and Sally, but more the former.
I comment.
Greenie analyses my post.
I reply to Greenie.
Kit makes a note about Greenie's post, says Bom stil looks worse than Sally.
Greenie replies to my reply to her.
Eomer: "G55 has defended Sally about three times!"
Eomer: "The jump on Bom is bewildering."
Kit flipflops on Sally and says that she is not more suspicious than Bom.
Eomer calls my original comments to Kit "the most suspicious thing yet posted"
Kit votes Sally.


Now if my posts were so suspicious, why didn't Kit ever make a note of them before? Plus, Greenie&Eomer both questioned them. However, now that Pretty-much-Everybody decided that I'm fishy, she suddenly finds them odd.


Suspicions of Lommy floating midway (explained in previous posts).


Legate still sounds good, even though I've gone from "quite reasonable" to "somewhat suspicious" in his books. :p


Eomer is still a mystery.


Mith I don't quite get toDay. Her post in #205 confuses me. What's weird is that she posted a lot, but she never got in the thick of the arguments. Maybe not evil, but weird.


Nerwen's arguments look innocent enough, although she continues to be aloof. I don't detect traces of fur on her, but she's so far away there that it's hard to see. :P


Nilp didn't post anything of content.


More to come a bit later.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Nilp didn't post anything of content.
I see that we shall be getting along grandly. :D

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm a little confused - Kitanna's suspicious are Sally and Bom, and she seems to be suspicious of Bom for being ready to vote Sally, which to me seems a bit counter-intuitive.

I do agree with this, though. Kit brings up the Sally-vote in a showcase-like manner, then suspects Bom for starting it in the first place.

Really, oh pigeon? Suspecting Sally and then suspecting Bom for suspecting Sally seems a bit hypocritical to me.

This is all from one of Shasta's posts, and a couple of other people have suggested the same: that Kitanna looks weird and possibly hypocritical for suspecting Bom for his infamous Sally-comment, and then suspecting Sally herself.

But Kitanna had a case against Sally; she suspected Sally for different reasons than Bom had (if he actually suspected her at all - which I doubt). I don't see how that's hypocritical. I'm not defending Kitanna per se, but this is not a successful argument against her.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

How about her case against known evil-slaying Lommy? When there could be, I don't know, far better suspects?

(Will most likely be back before DL. Toodles!)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

How about her case against known evil-slaying Lommy? When there could be, I don't know, far better suspects?

(Will most likely be back before DL. Toodles!)

That's an entirely different kettle of fish, dear Nilpaurion, and one which I shall investigate posthaste!

[Kitanna]

Has anyone seen Bom? I found him worth a second look and now he's disappeared completely.

Suspicions of Kit go up. She suspected quite a few of my posts in her ananysis basically repeating the general attitude only after everybody else said pretty much the same thing.
My first post of today said I'd be looking at you for just that reason. I wanted to know why people found you so suspicious. Seeing as you got two votes yesterday it seemed fairly reasonable to me I should see why.

It is interesting that Kit decided to concentrate her effort toDay (well, thus far) into close-reading those who got LottieWolf lynched.
I missed a lot after my vote post. The biggest thing that happened was the death of known baddie, Lottie. So, I proped deeper. And this is not where I'm solely concentrating effort, it's where I started.

Like I said in my last post I wanted to take a look at Mith. I'm not sure what to think of her. And that feeling goes for a lot of others.

Mith:
1) Nothing much, some banter for Nilp
2) Asks why Shasta doesn't want to post (he had stated he was thinking of waiting until jokes ended and serious playing began)
3) Nothing useful
4) Here she says she finds it suspicious to not know the rules. She stated later this is a way to give the impression of a confused innocent.
5) Nothing useful
6) Not much
7) Nothing useful
8) I don't know what Sally is playing at though. It is ten days til she says she has to go and in a game this size it is unlikely to be an issue. And apart from the ethics of participating in a game knowing you may not be able to see it through, I can't see any benefit of drawing attention to it so far in advance. I may be being thick but I can't see it being a helpful tactic for any role we have in the game. A hunter needs to get themselves killed to fulfil their purpose but we don't have one and it would be impossible for a Hunter to be in a position to make a good call that early in the game.
This is what she had to say on Sally.
9) Nothing useful
10) Nothing useful
11) Clarifies to Legate what she meant about not knowing the rules and wolfishness
12) Further clarification
13) Nothing useful
14) I think she's talking to Sally here about voting last minute. Not much else of note
15) Responds to Sally, saying I have clearly had an effect on her
16) Says Sally seemed the most suspicious so far and added a vote count. Also will look at Lottie
17) Says she's going with her strongest pick which happens to be Sally
18) More of the "not knowing the rules can be evil" debate
19) Douglas Adams
20) Asks Lommy if this be a bandwagon for Lottie
Day 2:
21) Makes a note of the ranger role and the twist it has added. (if you don't know what I mean check out the admin thread for clarification)
22) Continued rules jargon
So what to think about Mith. I stated before there was something about her posts I found strange, but not necessarily fiendish. I'm still of this mind, which might be what she's going for. She seems utterly fixated on the rules and those who "make a show" of not knowing them. Returning to this topic once or twice doesn't worry me, but she kept going back, even into today. She really only mentioned Sally and Lottie as possible choices in two posts. For Sally the only reason I could see was for her vote was based on Sally's ordo reveal in her second post. But even then she didn't seem to voice strong convictions about it. And she just says she wants to look harder at Lottie, but doesn't say anything about what she learned or if she did. Mith has been fairly vocal, but hasn't said much of interest. It's hard to pin her down, which is unsettling. I have no idea what to think of Mith even now. She's worrying, but it's hard to get any theories to stick to her. Oh Mith, you hurt my brain.

I feel one wolf may be a submarine at this point. Someone no one has really looked at or who hasn't gotten any suspicions thrown at them. There are four I can think of off the bat (Nerwen, Greenie, Eomer, and Nilp), but if I had to time to scrutinize everyone's posts from yesterday I'm sure I could find more.

Unfortunately due to errands and RL duties I can't keep doing that. I had more I wanted to look at (Lottie and Nog and the submarines) but I simply can't. For now I'll have to content myself with the here and now. I'll be back in a few hours.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Lommy:
3)
Innocent viewpoint of Lottie.

------


What happened to Lottie? She thought her innocent...


Looks like Lommy hasn't responded to this, but:

Kitanna, I think you misunderstood Lommy's original post about Loslote (the thing where she mentions 'innocence stock'). She never at any stage had an innocent view of Loslote.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Will probably be around later but there's a chance I'll have no internet access whatsoever, so I'll vote now.

++Galadriel55

Was suspicious of her yesterday, and she looks more suspicious with every post. Not certain she's guilty or anything but she is my top suspect.

Interested in seeing Kitanna's comeback on Lommy, which I'm pretty sure will have to be toned down as it seems to rest on a misinterpretation.

Sally still suspicious. Wondering about Nerwen, Mithalwen and Nilp.

Hopefully (probably) back later.

[Thinlómien]

No it was just the coffee was kicking in and having read through to make sure it made some kind of sense I realised that is what it boiled down to.I was trying ot make it clear having been queried on my mention that it is suspicious not to know the rules theory which seemed quite obvious to me.

I was thinking about the significance of the Ranger issue yesterday as I mentioned in one of the posts. I was up to the rather simple task of relating actual events to previously considered hypostheses on the game structure in my fragile state. What I wasn't up to but am going to try is to try and sort out the far more complex webs of interactions and analyses thereof .Fair enough.

Still, you must admit it has often been the case that a wolf jumps on the bandwaggon.Yes, I admit it. But the only one who "jumped on a bandwagon" yesterDay was Nogrod, Legate and I both thought we were posting the second vote and I don't call that bandwagoning. In my opinion that's not much against Nog yet.

Looks like Lommy hasn't responded to this, but:
Kitanna, I think you misunderstood Lommy's original post about Loslote (the thing where she mentions 'innocence stock'). She never at any stage had an innocent view of Loslote.I did reply it in my long post up there - and indeed I did not say Lottie is innocent at any point...

[Galadriel55]

You ought to know by now, Legate, that no-one can ever get a clear picture of me!

Too true, since you're jumping around so much. :p

I don't know what to think of you either (of course I'm tempted to say you're evil, since you voted me twice already, and that's an evil thing to do! ;)).



#67 - nothing much. Introduction. Says we have a "careful village"

#69 - voices his suspicion/disagreement (?) on me and Sally

#70 - nothing of importance

#73 - "The jump on Bom is bewildering."

#84 - thinks Bom's post is funny

#89 - calls my post "the most suspicious thing yet posted"

#97 - makes sure he can highlight

#100 - votes me

DAY2

#199 - questions Nip and Lottie's "conversation"

#200 - "Sally and G55 seem completely intent on making people suspicious of them": we defended our votes

#202 - examines Lotties possible connection with me.

#203 - Says that Lommy's case is interesting. Wants to examine it.

#214 - thinks that Kit is NOT hypocritical

#216 -
[QUOTE=Eomer of the Rohirrim;657725]That's an entirely different kettle of fish, dear Nilpaurion, and one which I shall investigate posthaste!

#218 - corrects Kit about Lommy

#219 - votes for me again.


How can one possibly get a clear picture of him when he jumps around so much?

Edit: xed with Lommy

[Galadriel55]

Yes, I admit it. But the only one who "jumped on a bandwagon" yesterDay was Nogrod, Legate and I both thought we were posting the second vote and I don't call that bandwagoning. In my opinion that's not much against Nog yet.

I remember Legate saying that he intends to vote Lottie. You were less suspicious about her, but you said at some point that you have a bad gut-feeling about her and Eomer.

I can't see Legate's case as a wolf-on-wolf. Yours could be turned either way. I'm still thinking about you.

You bring up Nog. I think I'll analyse him too, if time permits (as I have to run somewhere now but will be back in about an hour.)

[Thinlómien]

I remember Legate saying that he intends to vote Lottie. You were less suspicious about her, but you said at some point that you have a bad gut-feeling about her and Eomer.I think he was unsure between Sally and Lottie?

Anyway, a list:

Bom Tombadillo - mm no idea, especially as he has disappeared. More evidence please! I don't think his jump on Sally was necessarily evil, more like careless/weird thinking.

Nogrod - I like him this far. He makes sense in a way that makes me confortable, but also says weird stuff enough that I don't worry about him being a smooth super manipulative wolf guru. Also, his vote nailed Lottie's coffin, which also might be a point in his favour.

Kitanna- I'm trying not to suspect her, because I always suspect her and because I don't want to be knee-jerky AND because everyone else suspects her and I'd rather not add my voice to that choir with this little evidence, but she is a little suspicious. The thing that worries me the most is how her analyses/posts seem like they aim at pointing out suspicious behaviour, not at catching wolves. It's a subtle difference but it might be there.

G55 - I'm quite impressed by her very un-newbieish playing style! Other than that, I don't really have much opinion, except that she doesn't strike me as overtly defensive like Legate said.

Sally - nothing new: she tends not to proclaim her innocence when she's evil, but otherwise I cannot judge her.

Eomer - very interesting. He has apparently taken a gallant knight tactic, rushing to defend other players wherever he sees a misunderstanding or a faulty accusation (to exaggerate a bit). I'm not sure what to make of it (if it's wolvish buddying up or genuine innocent helpfulness), but at least my gut-feeling of him is better toDay than yesterDay.

Nerwen - arg, slipping under my radar. No idea. Should pay more attention to her or she wll do the typical wolf-Nerwen win.

Greenie - hasn't been around enough to judge properly. Wasn't too suspicious yesterDay anyhow.

Nilp - I'm trying to avoid thinking him innocent just 'cos he thinks I'm innocent, but I seriously cannot see anything off with this guy for now. Of course, he's known to pull impressive innocent face stunts before, so maybe I shouldn't be sure.

Mithalwen - other than having great wolvish insights, not much to say about her. Doesn't strike me as too bad or too good, and I agree with whoever (Kit?) said her concentration on the rules makes her difficult to read.

Legate - on the other hand, he seems very genuine, on the other, his smooth manner reminds me of the evil genius Legate. I think he is actually rather under my radar. Leaning innocent anyhow.

...and where are the wolves in this list of unsures and innocents? Dunno. If I had to bet, I'd say Kit and Mith, or maybe Kit and Nerwen. No idea though (happily there's still plenty of time 'til DL but I'll be away for the next few hours).

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Thinlómien;657734]Yes, I admit it. But the only one who "jumped on a bandwagon" yesterDay was Nogrod, Legate and I both thought we were posting the second vote and I don't call that bandwagoning. In my opinion that's not much against Nog yet.

QUOTE]

One thing I have looked at is Nilp's voting list - I think actually though it looked like a band waggon on this occasion appearances were deceptive. IT was all incredibly last minute. Effectively only 9 valid votes (excluding Nilp's playing silly beggars and Sally's plain late) and close - last hour started with only 3 votes cast and the decisive ones came in a four minute spell. So it looks like quite a bit of brinkmanship was going on. But why? The late voters (save Sally) weren't in danger of being lynched and needing to save themselves. Gah I feel there is osmething in this but I can't get at it and I am confusing myself (not helped by realising I muddled voter and votees in my notes. I also wonder if it is significant that Loslote didnt' vote. She might have saved herself if she had gone for another candidate. If she thought herself doomed I suppose she didn't want to leave any clues.

[Bom Tombadillo]

Wow. I have been SERIOUSLY lacking in timeliness this game (I pretty much forgot I was playing YesterDay) and don't really have time to do anything at the moment either - I will set an alarm to make sure I don't miss two days in a row though.

Back in a few hours,

Bom Tombadillo

[Galadriel55]

I think he was unsure between Sally and Lottie?

I don't remember what he planned to do with sally, but I am quite certain that he wanted to vote Lottie much before Shasta's analysis.

Also, his vote nailed Lottie's coffin, which also might be a point in his favour.

I'm not so sure. Lottie had the most votes before he voted. It was your and Legate's votes that did the trick.

And then this line that he says when voting:

I see this has been decided while I was writing my last post. Let's check it.

Kitanna- I'm trying not to suspect her, because I always suspect her and because I don't want to be knee-jerky AND because everyone else suspects her and I'd rather not add my voice to that choir with this little evidence, but she is a little suspicious.

So is she suspicious or isn't she? Despite that she's a "little suspicious", you try not to suspect her.

???

G55 - I'm quite impressed by her very un-newbieish playing style!

Thank you, although I don't know if that's a good thing for me or a bad one. :p


... ... ... BOM!!!! You're back!!!! :D Please post something worthwhile when you return. We need it.

[A Little Green]

Gah. I thought I'd be here ages before now but RL interfered. I need to go to sleep soon I'm afraid but I'll do my best.

On another quick note. As I just skimmed through what had happened the last I find it odd Greenie makes some sense saying that what Bom said looked more like "this is what I'm going to do unless there is a better option" and not "there is our wolf, let's lynch her together now". But then she went on and voted for him. To me, considering (or appearing to consider) lynching someone because they'll die anyway is a wolfish thing to do. A lynch wasted, basically.
Heh, I'm feeling nostalgic. I haven't made this rant in yearsNo? I thought you make it every game.. :D
Greenie, you've called Nerwen "careful" and "neutral" twice now. Do you suspect her, or not?Neither, I'm afraid.
I'm still thinking about this. She voted for Lottie (who we now know is a wolf), but apologises for it. Of course, that could be an innocent thinking she's going on a Lottiewagon, but it could be something much more sinister. I'm more inclined towards the former, but you never know!I'm not sure I follow this logic. Would a wolf preparing to vote for a fellow underline how sorry she was to do it?

I'll be making a list soon. My mind is pretty much a mess right now so the result might not be very intellectual.

[A Little Green]

Bom - Was my best bet yesterDay. His idea of a "mercy lynch" for Sally still makes me wary of him, but I'll leave him be for now. At least I want to hear more from him before I decide anything, and I'll most likely be gone by the time he reappears.

Eomer - Confuses me, as usual. I think Lommy made an interesting observation of how he has taken up the role of a gallant knight, but like Lommy, I have no clear idea of what it might mean. He's certainly crafty enough to use something like that as a deliberate strategy to win himself some allies.

Galadriel - I'm very torn about her. Half the time, she seems very sincere, and much of what might be called suspicious about her posts could be attributed to this being her first werewolf game ever (defensiveness, backtracking on her suspicions once someone questions them). On the other hand, (in addition to that the defensiveness and the occasional backtracking that could just as well be signs of being a new wolf) there is something very fishy in the way she phrases some things. The passage about Lommy quoted in my previous post is a case in point.

Kit - Argh, I'm torn about her too.

Legate - His normal wishy-washy self, and as such, could be anything.

Lommy - I have a hard time seeing her as a wolf. She seems sincere.

Mith - Back to the no idea -zone...

Nerwen - ...and remaining solidly there. What always bothers me about Nerwen is that I can read a dozen of her posts, absorbing the content but never much of its writer. I'd like a look at her if I have time.

Nilp - Having a hard time reading him. As always.

Nog - Leaning innocent. Or maybe I'm lulled into a false sense of security just because he sort-of suspected me on Day 1 (and he always does when he's innocent). The down side, of course, is that I always tend to suspect him when he's innocent. So maybe that I don't just means he's a wolf this time. :rolleyes:

Sally - Her "I'm an ordo and I'm going to die" -post looked sincere to me. Some of the stuff she's said since made me want to reconsider, especially her way of instantly turning to suspect those who suspected her.

[A Little Green]

Also, if there's anyone around I wouldn't mind a chat. It's kind of dull to appear, comment on previous posts, vote, and go to bed. (Partly my own fault of course, only coming here this late.)

[Kitanna]

Kitanna, I think you misunderstood Lommy's original post about Loslote (the thing where she mentions 'innocence stock'). She never at any stage had an innocent view of Loslote.
I went back to read it. I saw the word innocence bolded above the post and that clicked in my mind as Nog and Lottie were innocent to her. No, she doesn't actually say she thinks Lottie is innocent, but she also doesn't really say she thinks she guilty either in that post.

PS: I'm glad to see Bom is back.

[Mithalwen]

Not sure I buy the forgot I was playing line since he actually posted. :confused:

[satansaloser2005]

Just popping in to say that, yet again, I'll be very quiet. I've far too many calls to make at work this afternoon, so I doubt I'll be on the webs much. I just wanted to let you all know so you didn't wonder where I'd wandered off to this time. :p

Shasta: WHY?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!???!?!?!?!?!?!?! !?!!?!?!!?!!?!? :(

I'm wondering if Shasta was killed because he was on the right track (Kit and the like) or because the wolves had nothing better to do (as in a no-trace kill or a pot shot at the ranger). I'll try to do my own lookover of his posts, but I'm not sure I'll have time toDay.

Speaking of the ranger....now that the wolves are down a pup, do you think they'll try to kill the ranger, or would they leave him/her alone? Killing the ranger could kill one of them as well, so I'm thinking we may see more random kills than attempts at slaying gifteds (or at least the ranger). Perhaps I'll offer more thoughts on this later, but....well, again with the time thing.

Speaking of time, I'm out of it. I know I'll be back to vote at some point, but it may be a rather in and out deal. We'll have to see. Until my return! :)


P.S. Sorry if this post is a bit frantic, but I'm typing my mad bloody fastest and I'm really tired. Blah. >.<

[Galadriel55]

Also, if there's anyone around I wouldn't mind a chat. It's kind of dull to appear, comment on previous posts, vote, and go to bed. (Partly my own fault of course, only coming here this late.)

Chat chat chat chat... :D ;)

I have been working on a Nogalysis, and I'm halfway through.

Not sure I buy the forgot I was playing line since he actually posted.

Well, he forgot about a RPG a long time ago... *glares at Bom*

Actually that line makes me think of him as more ordo than not. If he was a wolf or gifted, would he really forget his responsibilities?

Suspicions of Bom go down somewhat, though still not dropped.

Edit: xed with Sally

[Galadriel55]

Killing the ranger could kill one of them as well, so I'm thinking we may see more random kills than attempts at slaying gifteds (or at least the ranger).

The Ranger cannot self-protect. The twist comes into effect only if both the Ranger and the Wolves have the same target. And in that case, there are three possibilities. :smokin:

[A Little Green]

Had a quick look at Nerwen.

NERWEN, DAY 1

Only one post, no vote. But then, I'd have been surprised if there had been one. :D Basically she summarises what Nilp, Sally, and Bom have done, and asks Bom to clarify how much of his famous post was a joke. I think I've called this post of Nerwen's careful and neutral twice already. She takes no stance on any of the issues she comments on, and, this being her only post of the Day, we have pretty much nothing on what was going through her mind that Day.


NERWEN, DAY 2

In her first post toDay, she (surprisingly) laments Shasta's death and wonders why he was killed. However, looking at yesterDay's chaos of accusations, counter-accusations and passionate defences, it's interesting that apparently nobody looked more like the Seer to the wolves. Shasta's case on Lottie was built on in-game evidence– whereas, a good many players seemed ready to defend/suspect others at the drop of a hat.I think this is a valid point. The trouble is, I could also see a Nerwolf trying to distract the village into futilely debating the reasons behind the kill. This would point, possibly, to a packmate gathering too much attention. Nah. I don't know.

Actually, some of Sally's reaction to G55 could be a wolf trying to distance herself from a cub who's been too quick to defend her. It would fit that pattern quite well in fact. However, as you say, she did press it further than would be needed– so if they're in it together, it would mean Sallywolf was trying to bus her newbie comrade for little reason.

More importantly, though, we also have a known wolf to look at, and G55 happens to be the only person that wolf went after.

So, the key question, then is: how likely is it that Wolflote would make a wolf-on-wolf attack on Wolf55 at that point and in that way?I really like Nerwen in this post. She's sharp and her reasoning is sound, and the points she makes are ones I'm not sure a wolf would be fond of making.

Her third toDay continues the speculation of a possible Lottie-Sally-Galadriel-trio.
It's perhaps more likely Wolflote would go strongly after a newbie comrade than Sallywolf, simply because Lottie tends to be very pessimistic about her own chances of survival– she might have reasoned that ione or other of them would probably die early anyway, and thus that a real wolf-on-wolf attack was the best bet. All the same, it's most unusual for a wolf to give herself no other option but voting a comrade.

Not much to say about Lommy, except to concur that her Legate-180 on Wolflote is peculiar (even coming from the Queen of Flip-floppers).
Her fourth starts with pondering the implications of Lottie forgetting or "forgetting" that Kit was playing. Again, sensible and sharp.
Are you talking about Lottie's claim that she "didn't know Kit was playing"? I don't know– it was, of course, suspicious, with hindsight– but it might have been meant as a more general "look at me, I'm a clueless innocent" ploy, rather than having anything to do with Kit herself. On the other hand (or paw) Lottie did make quite a point of it: at #106 she says, Did I miss something? I could well have - I totally forgot Kit was playing at all, I might have forgotten there was a cobbler, too...
She then moves on to comment on Mith's idea that the modified Ranger might affect the choices of Night kills:
Seconded. That would explain a few things– it's been suggested the wolves thought Shasta was the Seer because of his case on Lottie and/or comments about Sally, but I find that unlikely (unless they panicked). It's just so hard not to think of getting the Seer as the lupine priority.The problem I have with this argument is that Shasta, though not particularly Seerish, still seemed to me an obvious choice for Night kill, given his role in the lynching of Lottie. Therefore if the wolves were afraid of the Ranger, I doubt they'd have gone after Shasta.

Conclusions? I think there's too little material to form any definite conclusion from, but for now, I'll remain wary of her. What bothers me is that even as all her posts could go either way, at the same time half of them scream "innocent" and the other half "suspicious". :rolleyes:


EDIT: x-ed since my last - yay people!

[A Little Green]

Galadriel, Kit, Mith, Sally (and anyone else happening to be around), a quick query: who are you thinking of voting toDay?

[Galadriel55]

Galadriel, Kit, Mith, Sally (and anyone else happening to be around), a quick query: who are you thinking of voting toDay?

A bit early to ask that. I'm suspecting meny people on different levels now...

Green (very likely to be innocent)
Sally
Legate

Yellow (more likely to be innocent than not)
Mith
Nerwen
Greenie

Orange (various levels of suspiciousness)
Nog
Lommy
Kit

Red (possible wolves)
Hmm. people from "orange", "unknown", or one from each, perhaps?

Unknown
Bom (awaiting posts!!!)
Eomer (jumps too much)
Nilp (his posts don't really register in my brain. Have to do something about it.)

[A Little Green]

Bed-time.

++ Eomer

[Galadriel55]

Nogalysis

First two posts are of no importance

#77 - Doesn't think that Sally and Bom are suspicious. Thinks that "those who notice something first" are ok, but those who jump on it without adding anything of their own are not. Says that Greenie is a bit contradictory to her logic with her vote (Bom).

#80 - Sees Bom's post as innocent because of the joke-tone. Intentions:

If there is no reaally suspicious person to vote I'd rather go to those who try to be really neat and unprovoking, careful, easy, non-commitant, unnoticed, low, behind a mask, only bantering... whatever.

#81 - Doesn't want Kit lynched because of the way she posts. Summarises the Sally/Kit situation.

#83 - Sees some patterns. Makes sure we consider this:

Which is not to say I think or know that Sally and/or Bom are innocents. They just feel more like it than not at the moment.

He already said that in #77: "neither Sally or Bom look that suspicious to me". He doesn't say they are, only that they look. Wants to underline it?

#96 - "Rants" and feels nostalgic about it. Says it's more important that Kit posts something of content to reffer back to than if she is innocent or not.

#108 - "uneasy" with those who thought I make sense because I made comments that were "against a well-informed goodie". Makes a neat observation about sally's reaction to Eomer's vote. (Possibly suspects sally?)

#112 - argues with sally. (Suspects her?)

#132 - confirmes his suspicions on Sally. Explains. Says that it's a rather good D1 since there are sides/alliances/whatever. Will vote for Sally unless something else comes up. Wants to think of how my "connection" to Sally might influence his opinion on her.

#146 - Raises questions about the reason for Lottie's mention of Kit (how she didn't know Kit was playing). Lottie and Kit could possibly be "mates in crime". The second part:

Kit has been suspected of suspecting both Sally & Bom (between whom there seems to be some suspecting), but that is perfectly natural: it's not that uncommon in WW to suspect two players who are at each others' throats. X and Y can be suspicious while you know they both most probably aren't. So those who simple-mindedly turn this into a reason to suspect Kit I find a bit suspicious themselves - especially if it looks like that with that suggestion they'r trying to save someone they have a relation with.

(Underlining mine) The first part is allright. But the last sentence, especially the underlined? The only "connection" he spoke of is my defence of Sally. If you suspect me for "having a relation" with Sally , why not say so? You made it a more general statement instead; were you really saying "Anyone who suspects Kit is on my bad list"?

In the first half of the post, you say there's a possibility that Lottie and Kit may be partners. But in the second, your opinion of Kit is quite positive.

???

#151 - Jumps on Lottie for mentioning her reaction to Kit's posts at a whim.

#153 - asks about the vote count

#162 - attacks Lottie again. Says that she probably wants to estrange herself from Kit

#168 - Votes Lottie.

I see this has been decided while I was writing my last post. Let's check it.

What has been decided? Lottie's fate? For some reason this line strikes me as suspicious, though I can't quite pin it down.

#175 - calls Nilp rusty for his self-vote.

DAY2

#204 - Says that Kit concentrates on those who lynched Lottie (I am not quite sure this is true since I was her first case). Thinks that Kit could be trying to turn the talk away from someone else (I don't get how that would work either. Who? Sally? She suspects her!). Says that what really made him suspect Lottie was her "slip regarding Kitanna".

Now if I'm right about it, that I suspected Lottie from the correct reason, then it would point to Kitanna being a second baddie.

, wants to focus on Kit toDay.

Change of heart after Lottie's wolfish self was revealed?

[Nogrod]

@Greenie: no idea...

Hah, only got the thread skimmed through as my laptop's mobile-network refused to connect for some reason and I had to awake my old tabletop PC (which took like 1½ hours, no kidding involved :().

And this blasted machine is updating millions of things one after another still (hasn't been used in a month or something) so this might be slow going for some time still.

But I'm working on it.


EDIT: see - my post was an answer to Greenie's question, and it took me ten minutes to make this (PC jamming)- then I decided to make this edit amd in jammed again for the next ten minutes... I love this old PC!

[Galadriel55]

Now after all that writing, I can finally take a breath and decide what to think of Nog.

To add to the things above, he only "noticed" Lottie's "slip" after Shasta's analysis. And he was the last one to vote Lottie.

Despite that, he does not give me a bad gut-feeling, and at most of the time is quite reasonable.

:rolleyes:

Edit: xed with Nog. You're not the only one with a computer like that! (mine ate an extremely long post yesterday...)

[Mithalwen]

Oh right I can't remember playing with him before.... I dont'know who I will vote for yet. But time marches on and I suppose I can't drip around all day, I certainly agree with you about Nerwen, I have never ever been able to "read" her in were wolf. I don't like the non-votes (from anyone) but I realise she is a bit isolated by time zone. But when she is around she is very perceptive. However I she is like that as a wolf too. But my not trusting my judgement on something isn't enough. So not Nerwen.

I am not sure I am unsuspicious of Sally. not saying will vote her again but there is something peculiar with this Galadriel Loslote Sally triangle.

[Mithalwen]

Crossed since Greenie.... Eomer ? Reasons? In her list she suspects him mainly due to something Lommie said. *wrinkles nose* Maybe she is anti knights errant. Or a throw away?

[satansaloser2005]

Galadriel, Kit, Mith, Sally (and anyone else happening to be around), a quick query: who are you thinking of voting toDay?

Kit or Galadriel.

Mith is strange, but maybe it's just my inability to read Mith. :rolleyes:

*disapparates*

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Eomer of the Rohirrim;657707]The G55/ Loslote relationship is interesting.

I shouldn't let my suspicions of G55 conceal the likelihood that the evil Loslote voted for an innocent villager on Day One. So you've definitely got that going for you. ;)

QUOTE]

Loslote didn't actually vote though did she? I can't see it and Nilp hasn't listed it. Not that I am not listed out atm. I may vote for the most annoying listmaker at the moment if you haven't gone definitively Greenie

[Nogrod]

A few thing on the Lottie / Kit issue - and to answer some questions by G55.

To add to the things above, he only "noticed" Lottie's "slip" after Shasta's analysis.That's correct. As I have said earlier, I thought most of the suspicions on Lottie early on Day1 were more likely the normal "Lottie looks suspicious" -thing. Everyone who has played with her knows it how often she is lynched - or at least heavily suspected - on D1's, and thus only newbies and wolves wish to try to lynch her. But it was Shasta's post - or someone elses' (I don't remember whose) which stole my attention. And it was the quote where Lottie talked about not realising that Kit played.

But unlike some people have interpreted it here (even if I thought I made it quite clear yesterDay), it was not just or only that she said that she was unaware Kit was playing, but the added sentence. Let me quote it once more (bolding mine)
Kit's post I saw and instantly "whaaaaaaat"ed because I forgot she was playing in this game. But I don't know how to read her yet, I just wanted to mention that.So why did she feel the need to add that bolded part in the end?

Okay, I'm quoting myself from the last minutes of yesterDay now: why did you want to mention that in that special way, "just wanted to mention that"? Why did you want that - and to let us know you did want us to know that? To try to create a feeling there can't be anything between you two last Night?

I see no other option unless you give me one.

So even if I can see a point in what Nerwen says of Lottie possibly only playing the ignoramus-card as such, I still have a nagging feeling that it was not only that (especially looking at Kit's early posting toDay - after that she has changed her focus which would be a wise move from a wolf - but could be explained other ways as well... that's werewolf :rolleyes:). But the next thing I do is to check whether there were any suspicions made about Lottie and Kit being in cahoots or connected in some way that would have triggered the reaction from Lottie. If there is, I'm probably going to vote for Kit, if there isn't, I need to reconsider and try to find a more suspicious candidate.

About Kit's first posts still aka. why I thought them suspicious.

I think Lommy summed it up nicely in a post after mine: I have to agree though that when a wolf was lynched, it is rather funny to start eyeing those who lynched her suspiciously - it doesn't seem very much like innocent logic. I mean, an innocent would want to pose the question "did anybody try to defend/save Lottie?" first (I imagine), while a wolf is more likely to go down the "let's analyse the bandwagon" path because she doesn't have to figure out who's evil and who's not.And I'm actually a bit confused if none had tried to look at that more obvious path... That will be my next task, if none beats me to it.

And G55, you say Kit was not doing what I said she was, as you were Kit's "first case" (and I think someone else commented on that as well, that she made other points as well). That's not the point. She did make a few short points on several people in her few first posts (before logging out for some time), but it was clear she had used all her energies going through the posts of two Lottie-lynchers (Lommy & Legate) which hardly seems the innocent's way of best using one's limited energies... And add to that that her analysis on Lommy looked like she was really hard trying to find something suspicious from there.

Okay. Enough of that now.

I'll take a short break and then delve into Kit / Lottie relationship (did anyone suggest something Lottie could have gotten jumpy?). And if in the meantime no one looks whether anyone tried to talk or vote Lottie off the noose, then I'll check that next.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

[QUOTE=Eomer of the Rohirrim;657707]The G55/ Loslote relationship is interesting.

I shouldn't let my suspicions of G55 conceal the likelihood that the evil Loslote voted for an innocent villager on Day One. So you've definitely got that going for you. ;)

QUOTE]

Loslote didn't actually vote though did she? I can't see it and Nilp hasn't listed it. Not that I am not listed out atm. I may vote for the most annoying listmaker at the moment if you haven't gone definitively Greenie

You're...... right? I must have imagined something that didn't happen. :confused:

So G55 doesn't have the consolation of being voted for by the evil wolf.

[Mithalwen]

Well she was talking about it alot - but no action. I thought I was going mad looking for it :rolleyes: OK may be too late to worry about going mad...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Hello, Bikini Bottom. :D I bring you greetings from Apple World!

Reading through the thread (thankfully a short one) just reinforces my trust for Nog-kun and Lommy-chan. And my forehead crinkles at those who continue to analyse them.

A widdle weply before a more thorough perusal:
[ . . . ]....now that the wolves are down a pup, do you think they'll try to kill the ranger, or would they leave him/her alone? Killing the ranger could kill one of them as well, so I'm thinking we may see more random kills than attempts at slaying gifteds (or at least the ranger).How can the baddies hunt the ranger? Hint drops, this early? Cos I'm sure you can't catch them just by their normal posting. (Eru knows I've tried, even in my baddie times.)

Maybe someone will just up and say, 'I'm the Ranger'? Or use strange icons in their posts?

[Galadriel55]

I'll have to vote a bit early toDay (about 1.5 hour from now), and considering that during the last hour you get the most writing, I'll have to vote without that information (which may come in useful). Unless something happens while I'm still here to change my opinion, I'll be voting one of those in my Orange category.

Edit: xed with Nilp. *goes to read his post very carefully :p*