WW LXXXVII - The Valley Forge

[Mithalwen]

Well first - really sorry for not voting - I lost track of time and was trying to find my notebook and got so confused and I was a bit freaked by the near unanimity. But I am a bit annoyed since I was right (first time I think since first game I havespotted two on the trot.),,, Anyway,,,,, found my notes.... need to look at yesterday in the light of both them and new information.

[satansaloser2005]

Huh. Well, that's interesting.

[Inziladun]

I find it curious that both G55 and Rikae voted for Pitch yesterDay, even though G55 later retracted and went kamikaze. I'll try to look at that a bit more closely later.

[McCaber]

Well, I'm here for my half of the day.

There was a lot to read, but unfortunately it seems to me that Rikae was the KD, so that invalidates a lot of what I had to say about her. Now I need to go back and reread what she said and see if I can learn anything from this.

One thing I can ask that I didn't get a chance to yesterDay: Nerwen, what did you mean about me being "shifty"? I looked over my posts and it seems remarkably consistent to me. I thought that G55 was a Forger before that day even started, but I was beaten to the punch with that accusation. Didn't make it any less true or in line with my thought processes.

[Mithalwen]

We have no proof though that they were your thought processes. You weren't exactly in a rush to share your insight... focussing on an rejected plan and the dead was a relative priority in the time you had available?

[Boromir88]

There was a lot to read, but unfortunately it seems to me that Rikae was the KD, so that invalidates a lot of what I had to say about her. Now I need to go back and reread what she said and see if I can learn anything from this.


Well it's possible the Forge members got it wrong, but which would mean there is only 1 left. Or not, and there's 2. I think it's pretty clear that Pitch has been up to something. And the only ones who would know enough to not be totally confused by the situations would be members of the Forge.

I won't have much time today or this weekend. I'm taking a trip for work tomorrow morning and won't be back until Sunday. I'll likely vote sometime before I leave later.

[Mithalwen]

In fact you don't mention her until you vote for her as far as I can see. You dont' question or challenge her even though you were posting during the same time. You think she is a forger before the day starts but wait nearly eight hours to mention it...no no idea why Nerwen might have thought that shifty.... :rolleyes:

[Boromir88]

One more thing, in my head, I've ruled out Finduilas, Mith, and sally as possible forgers. Congrats to you, if any of you are.

That leaves...

Eruhen
McCaber
Nerwen
Phantom
Pitch
Inzil

Possible 2 Forgers, or 1 KD, and 1 Forger. (Although wasn't it Rikae who said "if there's a loophole, let's exploit it?" Eh, kind of sounds like she was the KD there).

I'm about to move Inzil out of the above list, but I'm not as sure on him as the other three yet.

[Pitchwife]

Well it's possible the Forge members got it wrong, but which would mean there is only 1 left.
Or is it possible that one of them killed the other with her consent to make it look like she was the KD?

[McCaber]

Or is it possible that one of them killed the other with her consent to make it look like she was the KD?

With this many innocents left, I'd say it's unlikely and extremely risky. But then again opinion is divided on the subject of how unified the Forge should be acting. Possible, but unlikely.

If Rikae was indeed the KD, this comment seems quite enlightening:I think tp may be quite right with his wolf-on-wolf argument.

But I still have no idea what was up between her and Pitch at the end of the day. Maybe you just had to be there.

[Nerwen]

Well, I'm here for my half of the day.

There was a lot to read, but unfortunately it seems to me that Rikae was the KD, so that invalidates a lot of what I had to say about her. Now I need to go back and reread what she said and see if I can learn anything from this.

One thing I can ask that I didn't get a chance to yesterDay: Nerwen, what did you mean about me being "shifty"? I looked over my posts and it seems remarkably consistent to me. I thought that G55 was a Forger before that day even started, but I was beaten to the punch with that accusation. Didn't make it any less true or in line with my thought processes.
Well, it's like this: as Mithalwen has already mentioned, whatever you thought, you said nothing whatever about G55... until after various people had mentioned her as suspicious. And then, your explanation seemed oddly "off", as if you had simply picked up *that* people were talking about her, not *why*. This may have just been a case of someone pressed for time– I did say it was a tentative vote– but it does comes across as, well, shifty. See?

Okay. I suppose the thing to do now is re-read yesterDay in the light of Rikae's death.

EDIT:X'd with a Boro, a Pitch and a McCaber.

[the phantom]

Just sitting back enjoying the talk. But just to be sure that everyone is giving this thing proper thought, here is a little guide-

When considering Rikae as the KD, why do you think her death is the obvious sign?

Remember, the Forge has no idea who the KD is, so for them to off a suspected KD Rikae would've needed to give them ample reason to think she was the KD.

Did she?

If she did, what precisely did she do and who are the suspects?

If you don't think her behavior matches, why else would she be killed? (Surely there is another explanation.)

[McCaber]

In fact you don't mention her until you vote for her as far as I can see. You dont' question or challenge her even though you were posting during the same time. You think she is a forger before the day starts but wait nearly eight hours to mention it...no no idea why Nerwen might have thought that shifty.... :rolleyes:

All right, I guess I can see it now.

In my defence, I was extremely tired last night and I had forgotten if I had brought up what I saw in the votes from the day before or not. Landscaping is tough work sometimes.

[Inziladun]

Wow, I actually like phantom's plan for once. He's losing his edge.

Nah, really, if there are loopholes we should exploit them - that's part of the game. I kind of doubt the KD feels/will feel likewise, but it's interesting to see the reactions: Eruhen's claim that it's no different from an ordinary day one is absurd and has a whiff of desperation about it, and I don't know what McCobbler is doing (but I know for a fact he's not the KD!)

I'm going to go refresh my memory of the rules and roles...

First post. Thinks tp's plan for the KD is a good one. An innocent might say that, but a true baddie may also for appearances. The bit about knowing Cabbie wasn't the KD comes up later.

Okay, no cobbler (but he'll always be McCobbler to me).

This seems to be a flaw in the plan, though:
"This player will appear to be one of the members of the Valley Forge."

Does this mean the KD isn't revealed on his death?

Wilwa, a few posts later (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660459&postcount=69), brought up the fact that at the time, the KD would, in fact, have been revealed as such upon xyr death.

No vote from her Day 1.

[Nerwen]

I'm looking through Rikae's posts now, but I just wanted to mention something that's occurred to me: she might *not* have been killed for something she said during the Day at all.

EDIT: X'd with Zil.

[Finduilas]

I have not seen any reason, other than being a forge kill, to think Rikae the KD, therefore, I'm going with it being a case of the KD being extremely clever, and convincing the other forge member to suspect and kill Rikae.

[Boromir88]

I have not seen any reason, other than being a forge kill, to think Rikae the KD, therefore, I'm going with it being a case of the KD being extremely clever, and convincing the other forge member to suspect and kill Rikae.

In the case, I'd be grateful for the KD to take the reigns today (that is still within the restrictions of no-reveals), to wrap this game up now.

If there's is the KD and 1 forge member, than the KD has nothing left to fear at night.

If the KD's dead, leaving 2 forge members, and 1 wants to pretend to be the KD, they won't get very far pretending to be the KD.

[Inziladun]

Um, because I'm one of the three people he named? :rolleyes:

This was in response to Pitch referencing her earlier remark about "knowing" McCaber wasn't the KD. Why would that prove it? Because McCaber could be seen as following the tp plan?

Well, duh. I didn't say "I can prove he isn't"... I can by dying, of course, and it will give me more time for WoW, too. ;)
Actually I can't even say "I know he isn't" since I suppose it is possible the KD could deliberately try to lead the village astray, but I don't consider that too terribly likely (although on second thought it could help win the trust of his fellow wolves and keep him alive longer, too).

This was also in response to Pitch, who'd said this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660568&postcount=131).

Obviously, she could not have known McCaber to be the KD, even if he was in the pack with her. Now she backs off, but at the same time talks of a KD strategy to deceive the wolves.

Anyway - I'm terribly sorry I didn't vote or participate much yesterDay - I hadn't checked when the DL was and was distracted by RL - but I'll try to do better from here on. I do think we can learn something from Bom's posts. Can we be sure he wasn't the KD? I don't think our moddess ever answered the question about the KD's role being revealed, right? That wouldput Phantom and Cabbie in a bad light (fake KD bluff attempt?) and whoever went after Bom, while a truly evil Bom would do the opposite.

We know now, of course, that Bom was not the KD.

I didn't think Bom got the inside joke, though, Cab - he seemed to read something else into it (or want others to, anyway).

McCaber was talking of Bom, saying he had "leaned on" me for not "catching an inside joke". I don't remember what that was even about.

Not so... she said:



So Bom was not the KD, but none of the narrations will be from the KD's perspective from now on, and we (and the forge members) won't know if he dies.
Not caught up, still reading...

A response to Finduilas, who had said careful reading of the narration could still give the observant info on whether the KD had died.

This is exactly what I would say as a wolf if I felt the intelligence of the wolves had been insulted (and yes, I'm going to keep calling them wolves - they are wolves in spirit).

I don't have much to go on at this point, but I would like to say that I don't think the case against G55 based on her vote yesterDay is a good one at all - if anything, it was a vote and an argument unlikely to come from an actual wolf. As for her defense of me, I don't think Pitch was making a case at that time and I kind of don't think she thought so either...

Does anyone else find a certain person's musings on literature to be - interesting? I think tp may be quite right with his wolf-on-wolf argument.

The first part was responding to Sally's take on the aforementioned comment by Finduilas. Sally had said that if the good side could figure the narration out, so could the Forgers.

Rikae defends G55, and strangely casts doubt over something I considered a damning bit of evidence against the latter, the overreaction against Pitch's nonexistent "case" on her.

As for the "literature" remark, that was the subject of an interesting back and forth between Rikae, Boro, and tp.

Yes, tp, I think it's misleading and I consider it unlikely that it's only partially so.

Pitch, when I say I don't think she thought so, that is exactly what I mean... not that she didn't say so. I don't trust you for obvious reasons, therefore I'm rather inclined to trust her.

Doesn't trust Pitch, but does trust G55?

G55, you do realize being lynched by day is no longer much help, right? Or is it?

After G55's self vote, the same post in which G55 said Pitch and tp were evil.

And yes, Boro, I do think it's suspicious when I see someone reacting as I would as a wolf, especially if it's someone that shares relevant personality traits. Is that so strange?

That was to Boro, who'd said he didn't like her saying Sally was talking as she would if she was a wolf.

Is that the best you can do?

++Pitch

And a vote for Pitch, who had just indicated he had no idea what tp was talking about here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660676&postcount=224) I guess, though Pitch didn't quote.

Don't you think it's strange that someone hasn't been modfired?

Well, what to say about that?

I suppose the fact that this person does not deserve modfiring would be pretty good evidence that this person is not what he hints at being...

I really don't know quite what to make of the last few posts, except that the situation for the Forgers is too precarious for them to have used a kill on her without a very good reason.

[Inziladun]

I'm looking through Rikae's posts now, but I just wanted to mention something that's occurred to me: she might *not* have been killed for something she said during the Day at all.

If it was for something she said during Nightly chats, that's of absolutely no value to us. I think we have to focus on what we can see.

[Boromir88]

++Pitch

I intend to be back before I have to go tomorrow, so I may yet retract, but hopefully he starts talking before I have to go. I'm not buying this "be careful HUSH UP OR YOU'RE MODFIRED" business from phantom. Who do you suspect Pitch, why, and why do you think Rikae was asking if others thought you're hints strange?

Rikae was definitely going out of her way to look like the KD yesterday. Maybe it was a Forge plan all along, and it was a last desperate attempt to drag the real KD out. I don't know, but I do know you've been in the middle of everything since Day 1. With Bom's lynching, your plea to not want to see phantom lynched, Gal's lynching....time to spill it. You know way too much.

I don't see what good could come for one of the Forgers to die in an attempt to look like the KD, not after having Bom and Gal lynched. Unless if somehow Gal was the KD, and Rikae covered for the rest of her pack to make it look like she was? Again, I don't see the benefit there.

[Nerwen]

Rikae, Day One.
#66.
Wow, I actually like phantom's plan for once. He's losing his edge.

Nah, really, if there are loopholes we should exploit them - that's part of the game. I kind of doubt the KD feels/will feel likewise, but it's interesting to see the reactions: Eruhen's claim that it's no different from an ordinary day one is absurd and has a whiff of desperation about it, and I don't know what McCobbler is doing (but I know for a fact he's not the KD!)

I'm going to go refresh my memory of the rules and roles...


#67.
Okay, no cobbler (but he'll always be McCobbler to me).

This seems to be a flaw in the plan, though:
"This player will appear to be one of the members of the Valley Forge."
Note: these two posts could mean anything, either way. Though her later explanation makes sense, the bolded phrase is a possible hint.



Rikae, Day Two.

#129.
Originally Posted by Pitchwife
Speaking of McCaber - Rikae, please enlighten me:

How can you know that "for a fact", unless you're a member of the Forge and he is not?
Um, because I'm one of the three people he named?


#135.
Originally Posted by Pitchwife
"And I know of course I'm innocent (although I obviously can't prove it), so if he suspects me, he can't know my role"?
Well, duh. I didn't say "I can prove he isn't"... I can by dying, of course, and it will give me more time for WoW, too.
Actually I can't even say "I know he isn't" since I suppose it is possible the KD could deliberately try to lead the village astray, but I don't consider that too terribly likely (although on second thought it could help win the trust of his fellow wolves and keep him alive longer, too).

Anyway - I'm terribly sorry I didn't vote or participate much yesterDay - I hadn't checked when the DL was and was distracted by RL - but I'll try to do better from here on. I do think we can learn something from Bom's posts. Can we be sure he wasn't the KD? I don't think our moddess ever answered the question about the KD's role being revealed, right? That wouldput Phantom and Cabbie in a bad light (fake KD bluff attempt?) and whoever went after Bom, while a truly evil Bom would do the opposite.
I'd love to know for sure, well, how much we know. Moddess?

Note: that's... interesting. At first sight it implicates phantom and McCaber pretty heavily– but could the stuff I've highlighted be a code for "Hey village, what follows is not true"? Or "take what I say with a grain of salt?" And could the Forge have picked up on this? Also– is eager to suggest the KD might already be dead.


#138. (replying to McCaber at #137.)
I didn't think Bom got the inside joke, though, Cab - he seemed to read something else into it (or want others to, anyway).


#188. (replying to Finduilas at #176); quotes admin rules.)
So Bom was not the KD, but none of the narrations will be from the KD's perspective from now on, and we (and the forge members) won't know if he dies.


#211.
Quote:
Originally Posted by satansaloser2005
I have a problem with your logic here. If "careful readers" will notice, it's likely the Forge would be able to figure it out as well. After all, we weren't aligned based upon our intelligence. It just seems like a strange statement to me.
This is exactly what I would say as a wolf if I felt the intelligence of the wolves had been insulted (and yes, I'm going to keep calling them wolves - they are wolves in spirit).

I don't have much to go on at this point, but I would like to say that I don't think the case against G55 based on her vote yesterDay is a good one at all - if anything, it was a vote and an argument unlikely to come from an actual wolf. As for her defense of me, I don't think Pitch was making a case at that time and I kind of don't think she thought so either...

Does anyone else find a certain person's musings on literature to be - interesting? I think tp may be quite right with his wolf-on-wolf argument.

Note: This is an odd one. If Rikae was indeed the KD, then it would follow that G55 must have been a real wolf– therefore defending her here is certainly odd (but see #135.). Meanwhile it of course seems to implicate Sally (but again, see #135.) I can't find who Rikae is referring to in that last sentence, but I think it's Pitch.


#228 (Replying to Pitch at #215 and phantom at (probably) #224)
Yes, tp, I think it's misleading and I consider it unlikely that it's only partially so.

Pitch, when I say I don't think she thought so, that is exactly what I mean... not that she didn't say so. I don't trust you for obvious reasons, therefore I'm rather inclined to trust her.
Note: "Her" being G55 of the Forge. Could she here be trying to play off one Forge member against the other?


#230. (Response to G55's self-vote)G55, you do realize being lynched by day is no longer much help, right? Or is it?


#231.(reply to Boro at #233 (possibly).
And yes, Boro, I do think it's suspicious when I see someone reacting as I would as a wolf, especially if it's someone that shares relevant personality traits. Is that so strange?


#233.
Originally Posted by Pitchwife
*stares blankly at phantom, blinks, is puzzled*
What the blazes are you talking about?
Apparently I wasn't clear enough, so you got me completely wrong; but OK, let's leave it at that for now. If need be, I can clarify toMorrow.
Is that the best you can do?

++Pitch


#238.
Don't you think it's strange that someone hasn't been modfired?


#242.
I suppose the fact that this person does not deserve modfiring would be pretty good evidence that this person is not what he hints at being...
This, I presume, refers to the exchange between Pitch and phantom, during which Pitch certainly seems to be implying he's the KD.


Conclusion: Was probably killed due to a combination of hints dropped at various points, her general preoccupation with the role, and her case(s) on Pitch and/or Sally. (And as I said, possibly some behind-the-scenes stuff we don't know about.)

EDIT:X'd since Boro #267.
EDIT2: Couple of attributions left out. Note: Rikae doesn't always make it clear what post she's replying to, so I'm not sure all of these are right, anyway.

[McCaber]

It's probably the safest to play like she was the KD, because if the rest of the Forge thought she was best dead we can assume she'd at least lead us on the right track.

But if the real KD is still out there, the game is yours. Run it as you'd see fit.

[Inziladun]

I don't see what good could come for one of the Forgers to die in an attempt to look like the KD, not after having Bom and Gal lynched. Unless if somehow Gal was the KD, and Rikae covered for the rest of her pack to make it look like she was? Again, I don't see the benefit there.

Well, let's see what G55 said yesterDay that might be of interest.

This is going backward from the end of the Day. Smilies removed.

Throwaway Day One votes are sometimes ok. But I don't like throwaway Day 2 votes.

--Pitch

++G55

But I tell you, he's evil. He is. I said, HE. IS. There. And so it TP.

I might not be able to post until after DL, so good luck, my friends, even though you all want to lynch me.

That definitely looks like she wanted to pose as the KD. If she was , the other two Forgers are obvious. If not, she was merely trying to set them up.

Got 5 minutes, wanna say this



OK, I believe what you're saying about the cross-voting. But you - and everyone else - forgot to notice that I also crossed with Zil's vote. And I did indicate that.



If this isn't the worst reason out there for suspecting me.

Here she defends herself.

No, I don't think you're a long-legged elven blonde, I'm not that nuts yet...

But I will not rest, and most definitely will not be assured, until I see my suspicions proven.

++Pitchie

Seriously, he said and did too many things with double-meanings that just smell like Forgery. I will probably have the chance to duck in again before the DL, but just in case I'm voting now. I doubt that anything will come up that will make me change my mind.

The vote for Pitch, whom she'd been after all Day. It was a very iffy case she was making on him, IMO, which was a major reason I voted for her.

That's right as far as I know. Anyone with a Forge mark (ie wolves and KD) will be called a Forge Member if they die. I think we'll know that it's the SH if she's lynched. If she's killed - obviously.

The fact that the KD's role is not revealed upon death makes things much more difficult for the village. It complicates things for the wolves as well, but they have the benefit of knowing something. Also, they can take information from Nightly conversations. For instance, the KD would try to influence the kill, and a wolf could detect that. But ordinary innocents won't know anything.

Interesting how she mentions the pack gleaning info on the KD during the Nightly chats. Didn't Nerwen bring that up as well?

That's for all of you who couldn't find a single KD clue. ^.^ :p We know now that he's not the KD, but for all we - and the wolves - kne yesterDay, he mighta been. Though this is the only KD hint I found, and it was said when votes were already starting to fall on him...



I get what you're saying. But, IMO, pressing the point and saying that she may as well be Forging at Night, is a case. And it just sounded ridiculous. The sentense he quoted, albeit a statement, sounds more frivolous than a serious declaration. Reminds me of myself in your game, when I tried to lynch someone for a joke-post.

Upon rereading, I come to be more and more suspicious of Pitchie and Phantom. I can see the twain awake at Night together. "Their swords and their councels may have two edges".... or something of that sort.

And it certainly makes it more difficult for villagers and wolves alike if they don't know the KD's identity. But especially villagers.

She defends her suspicions of Pitch, and brings tp into it again.

I found something else rather curious. TP voted Pitch. Pitch voted Bom. Bom voted TP. Interesting triangle. Contradictory conclusions are the only ones that come to my mind atm, so I'll have to address this again after a night of sleep. From the first look, Pitch and Phantom come out clean and shiny from yesterDay's vote. But I won't rule out a wolf-on-wolf yet. Fine. Forger-on-Forger. But I will still call them wolves. Evil werewolf spirits remain such regardless of who they posess and what shape they take. *stares at phantom*

And since I'm here, I can also say that Pitch is acting abnormal toDay, making an elephant out of a fly with Rikae. This isn't supposed to be related to my previous statement - at least in my head, - but they both stand... I think...

That's it. Bedtime. I'm stuttering in typing.... if that made any sense..... *head drops, eyes close*

Links Bom, Pitch, and tp by their Day 1 votes.

Sure did. And Wilwa hardly said anything at all!

I can't stay for long or go searching for interactions and etc, but from toDay's posts, Pitchie's case against Rikae feels a bit... fabricated. I'll be back later with my thoughts in full...

This was the first post of Day 2, and where she started in on Pitch.

She was consistent on Day 2, keeping on Pitch, and to an extent, tp. She doesn't really come across as the KD early in the Day. If she wasn't the KD, all the suspicion against Pitch and tp was a frame-up. But that would implicate Forgers in her lynch.

[Nerwen]

I intend to be back before I have to go tomorrow, so I may yet retract, but hopefully he starts talking before I have to go. I'm not buying this "be careful HUSH UP OR YOU'RE MODFIRED" business from phantom. Who do you suspect Pitch, why, and why do you think Rikae was asking if others thought you're hints strange?

Rikae was definitely going out of her way to look like the KD yesterday. Maybe it was a Forge plan all along, and it was a last desperate attempt to drag the real KD out. I don't know, but I do know you've been in the middle of everything since Day 1. With Bom's lynching, your plea to not want to see phantom lynched, Gal's lynching....time to spill it. You know way too much.

I don't see what good could come for one of the Forgers to die in an attempt to look like the KD, not after having Bom and Gal lynched. Unless if somehow Gal was the KD, and Rikae covered for the rest of her pack to make it look like she was? Again, I don't see the benefit there.
*shrug* Maybe that's what phantom's hinting about up there?
EDIT:X'd with Zil.

[McCaber]

Unfortunately, Pitchwife and phantom have been extremely cryptic, and the rest of toDay haven't given me much to go on.

Inzil I'm almost positive is innocent, Boro and Eruhen are as close, Nerwen and Mith are unlikely candidates, and as strange as tp's been toDay I'm still not comfortable voting him.

So I'm looking at a handful of nothing as far as voting candidates go. If I don't get any insights in half an hour or so, I'll probably go with Pitch, for lack of a better candidate.

[McCaber]

I'm out. I need to be at work in seven hours, so without further ado
++Pitchwife

[Boromir88]

2 lightning strikes landed practically right on top of our house and power's out. I've got a little over an hour of battery on my laptop, but...this didn't take long to read.

I was hoping Pitch would have replied.

Ah well, in that case all I'll say is hi-ho, hi-ho off to the bus I go. And knowing what happened last time I had to be gone for the weekend...I care not what happens to me, but don't let phantom convince you I will make some miraculous return to save and prove some genius plan of his. I won't and if he tries that one again, he should probably be lynched. :rolleyes:

[Mithalwen]

I for one have no desire for a repeat performance of that horror.....

[Inziladun]

Here's something to consider, in light of the votes for Pitch toDay.

G55 was after him all day yesterDay, and she was lynched. If Pitch is indeed a Forger, why wasn't the pack satisfied with the death of G55? Wouldn't it have seemed likely to them that they'd gotten the KD? Why then go after Rikae?

[Finduilas]

I'm confused as to how Pitchwife has suddenly earned several peoples mistrust. He was the first to vote for both Bom and Gal55, if I remember correctly, so he seems to be rather accurate at pinpointing forges... I'm guessing people are considering him to be a forge that is killing off all his members, and then he is going to try to win single-handedly?

Pity I didn't get on fast enough to ask that question of either Boro or McCaber.

[Inziladun]

I'm confused as to how Pitchwife has suddenly earned several peoples mistrust. He was the first to vote for both Bom and Gal55, if I remember correctly, so he seems to be rather accurate at pinpointing forges... I'm guessing people are considering him to be a forge that is killing off all his members, and then he is going to try to win single-handedly?

I've thought Pitch pretty reasonable, myself. See what I said above.

There's the possibility, though, that the pack really was convinced they'd gotten the KD with G55. That would mean Rikae was sacrificed to give an air of innocence to Pitch and tp; or that after her "hints" of being the KD, it was thought leaving her alive would be too suspicious. That seems awfully convoluted to me, though.

[Nerwen]

I'm confused as to how Pitchwife has suddenly earned several peoples mistrust. He was the first to vote for both Bom and Gal55, if I remember correctly, so he seems to be rather accurate at pinpointing forges... I'm guessing people are considering him to be a forge that is killing off all his members, and then he is going to try to win single-handedly?
Basically, it's because Rikae both voted him and left some possible KD hints– and got Night-killed. In the light of that, his "accuracy" could be typical wolf-on-wolf voting– or, in this game with its strange dynamics, wolf-on-KD voting. I'm not saying it has to be so, understand, but that's the reasoning.

Btw– you're calling them "forges", are you?:D


There's the possibility, though, that the pack really was convinced they'd gotten the KD with G55. That would mean Rikae was sacrificed to give an air of innocence to Pitch and tp; or that after her "hints" of being the KD, it was thought leaving her alive would be too suspicious. That seems awfully convoluted to me, though.
Yes. Zil, sorry, but this doesn't make sense at all– why would it give an "air of innocence" to Pitch and tp? Is it because of what you said before, that the wolves wouldn't kill Rikae for going after Pitch because G55, who had already gone after him, was dead? But that doesn't make sense either.

[Inziladun]

Yes. Zil, sorry, but this doesn't make sense at all– why would it give an "air of innocence" to Pitch and tp? Is it because of what you said before, that the wolves wouldn't kill Rikae for going after Pitch because G55, who had already gone after him, was dead? But that doesn't make sense either.

It just seems odd to me that if Pitch and tp, both repeatedly pointed out as baddies by G55, really are Forgers, why was Rikae seen as more of KD possibility than she? Both can't be the KD. What am I missing here?

[Nerwen]

It just seems odd to me that if Pitch and tp, both repeatedly pointed out as baddies by G55, really are Forgers, why was Rikae seen as more of KD possibility than she? Both can't be the KD. What am I missing here?
Well, the wolves don't get any extra information, do they?

[Finduilas]

My take is that since both G55 and Rikae voted against Pitch, and both turned out to be Forge members, neither one of them could be the KD. Though that is not fool-proof logic, I do think it makes sense... does it?

Btw– you're calling them "forges", are you?

I hadn't noticed, but I guess so. :D

Edit: xed with Nerwen

[Nerwen]

My take is that since both G55 and Rikae voted against Pitch, and both turned out to be Forge members, neither one of them could be the KD. Though that is not fool-proof logic, I do think it makes sense... does it?
No, I'm sorry– I don't understand that at all. Are you following Zil's reasoning here?

[Pitchwife]

I was hoping Pitch would have replied.

Sorry, I have to sleep sometimes.

OK, let's have it out. What Mith calls "that horror" shortly before DL yesterDay revolved around tp's query about my colour scale:
Pitch- your list. Can I ask, is everyone precisely where you feel they ought to be, or has one or more individuals been shifted slightly for the purpose of good strategic play?

and my reply to that:
More or less where I think they belong - but you'll have noticed that the person who should go in White-Hot must be somewhere else.
tp seems to assume that by saying this, I was unambiguously implying the role of the person I would have put in White-Hot, and thus unambiguously implying my own role in a way that comes close to a reveal worthy of modfire. I don't see that this is true.

Rikae picked up the idea and ran with it, claiming that the fact that I hadn't been modfired indicated that I was lying. Her being killed in the Night obviously seems to corroborate that claim.

I don't see what good could come for one of the Forgers to die in an attempt to look like the KD, not after having Bom and Gal lynched. Unless if somehow Gal was the KD, and Rikae covered for the rest of her pack to make it look like she was? Again, I don't see the benefit there.
Let's say if I was correct in my suspicions yesterDay, and given that quite a number of people seemed to trust me, wouldn't it make sense for the Forge to do their utmost to discredit me? Especially if the last Forger hasn't been much suspected otherwise and thinks s/he has a reasonable cance to make it?

Rikae as the KD would implicate me, tp and McCaber as possible Forgers. Suspects enough to occupy the village for a while, and for Rikae's packmate to reduce the number of innocents via Night kills in the meantime.

As to who I think that packmate is, I made a case against her yesterDay.
++Nerwen

[Nerwen]

What th–?

Yes, Pitch, I saw you flung out some wild accusations yesterDay– after I left and said I might not be back again, by the way– but they weren't anything I'd call a case. I've been trying to be absolutely fair and not let that prejudice me against you toDay– but that's it–

++Pitchwife.

And I don't think I'll be making any retractions, either.

And as I was about to explain to Zil and Finduilas: Zil's argument doesn't make sense because the wolves would have no way of telling when the real KD was dead. It's that simple.

[Inziladun]

And as I was about to explain to Zil and Finduilas: Zil's argument doesn't make sense because the wolves would have no way of telling when the real KD was dead. It's that simple.

Which is why I ask: assuming Pitch is a Forger, who would have worried the pack more yesterDay, G55 or Rikae?

[Nerwen]

You know what, Pitch? It seems to me that if the wolves decided to kill someone they thought was the KD, and her death would point to one or both of them– they might try cooking up some kind of weird framing scenario to explain it. I notice you jumped right in with that theory earlier, too.

EDIT:X'd with Zil.

[Nerwen]

Which is why I ask: assuming Pitch is a Forger, who would have worried the pack more yesterDay, G55 or Rikae?
Why does it matter? G55 was dead anyway by the end of yesterDay; Rikae was still alive.

[Nerwen]

Do you get my point now, Zil? Forge member A and Forge member B both drop hints and both accuse the same person. Member A is lynched– role unconfirmed. Does this mean the Forge can consider Member B cleared of KD-ness? Well, no, surely. Not unless they're given extra info on the dead party's role, anyway.

–By the way, though, a complicating factor in all this is that there's no reason *normal* wolf-on-wolf tactics can't be happening in this game. People seem to be assuming it isn't, but I don't know why. I would say that if Pitch is a wolf, he initially went after G55 in the more usual way– I don't think she started dropping hints until much later. (Though again, we don't know what happend at Night.) So that might answer your question a different way: they may not have ever thought she was the KD.

As for Pitch– well, I may have let my temper get the better of me after having been voted out of the blue like that. But he does sound like a baddie clutching at straws to me.

[Finduilas]

++Nerwen

If Pitch must die, I think we should do a double lynching, as dangerous as it may be. I think most of us will agree that Pitch is something, either a forge member, or the KD (either way, a forge member). If he is the KD, then Nerwen is the last of the Forges. So, I say, either just kill Nerwen, (and if the game does not end at that point, pop off Pitch the next day) or kill both of them. This method will take cooperation from everyone, so I guess we would all have to agree... I'm really in favor of just killing Nerwen, personally, and worrying about Pitch tomorrow. Pitch and Nerwen have already made their votes for each other. With my vote, there are 3 votes against Pitch, and 2 votes against Nerwen. Worst case scenario with this is that we get one Forger (Pitch) and one Ordo (Nerwen), and best case scenario is pretty bad too, we get one Forger (Nerwen) and we get the KD (Pitch). I suppose that it would be possible to get it the other way around, with Nerwen as the KD and Pitch as the forger, but Nerwen's vote for Pitch seemed more of a "take that" vote, than a "your a forger and I'm the KD" vote.

Edit: x/ed with Nerwen, post #292

[Pitchwife]

Yes, Pitch, I saw you flung out some wild accusations yesterDay– after I left and said I might not be back again, by the way–
Yes. That was one reason I voted G55 and not you.
I've been trying to be absolutely fair and not let that prejudice me against you toDay–
In other words, you haven't pushed Rikae-as-KD and used it to accuse me outright, because that might have looked like you had something to gain from framing me; you've just collected her possible KD-hints, surrounding them with a lot of question-marks and could-be's, and left it to the village to draw the conclusions. So far it seems to work.

If I'm a Forger and either G55 or Rikae was the KD, why did both of them accuse me yesterDay? And what do you make of this?
G55, you do realize being lynched by day is no longer much help, right? Or is it?

[Inziladun]

If Pitch must die, I think we should do a double lynching, as dangerous as it may be. I think most of us will agree that Pitch is something, either a forge member, or the KD (either way, a forge member). If he is the KD, then Nerwen is the last of the Forges. So, I say, either just kill Nerwen, (and if the game does not end at that point, pop off Pitch the next day) or kill both of them.

I think this works for me. I'm also keeping in mind the fact that Pitch has voted for Forgers two Days straight, and Nerwen chose McCaber over G55.

[Inziladun]

++Nerwen

[Nerwen]

Let's lynch both of them etc.

Naturally, I am not on board with this at all. In fact, if there was any other reason whatever to suspect Finduilas, I'd be thinking this was attempted damage control by Team Evil... but there isn't, so I'm guessing she's just a newbie who doesn't realise someone with a good voting record can still be a wolf.

I think most of us will agree that Pitch is something, either a forge member, or the KD (either way, a forge member).
If he was really the KD, I should think he'd have been modfired by now– at any, I'd think the real KD would be afraid to sail that close to the wind in the first place.

EDIT:since Finduilas.

[Nerwen]

Good night.

[Nerwen]

And fine, whatever. I suppose Zil's the other one.

[the phantom]

Okay, time to make sure we have this in hand.

Q: If Rikae was the KD, who is innocent?
A: She defended Gal55.
Q: Was she correct?
A: No.

Q: If Rikae was the KD, which dwarf do we lynch?
A: Pitch.
Q: Why only one person? Aren't there two more forgers?
A: Um....

Okay, so let's be serious here- I didn't say any of this earlier because I wanted to see which direction all of you tried to go with things, but be honest- the only way Rikae was the KD was if the KD was under special instructions from the Moddess not to go after all the Forgers and even defend one or two of them.

If we work under the assumption that she wasn't thet KD, what then is the logic for her kill?

1) It's a terribly devious and shocking plot that we can't understand at this point that will somehow lead to victory for the Forge.
***or****
2) The Forge lost two members in the first two days and it knew it would lose another today if they didn't do something insane at night, plus Rikae was feeling a bit disgusted with the situation and was happy to be killed in the desperate gamble.

(In case you weren't aware, I'm getting at option #2 making the most sense.)

[the phantom]

Nerwen & Pitch are tied at 3.

Yet to vote- Eruhen, Sally, Mith, and Phantom.

[Finduilas]

There seems to be a thought that Pitchwife, if he is the KD, deserved modfiring. He has not said anything to deserve modfiring, I believe, he has merely pointed out one Forge after another. This, I think, may be a bit foolhardy as a KD, but it isn't cheating. He never said anything like "I know for certain that these people are Forges" "Trust me, I have inside information" or anything of that sort. He always, when he gave reasons for his vote, used their comments on the thread. So, he isn't necessarily the KD (though I think he is, as I don't think that he is a forge member), but even if he is, I don't think he cheated. So, we can't take the fact that he hasn't been Modfired as proof that he isn't the KD.

[Eruhen]

Still not at home yet, but at least I have internet access. I don't have time to post my thoughts now, but if I get home with enough time before DL, I plan on it.

For now, though...

++Nerwen

[the phantom]

Findu- really, don't talk about that, and especially not so directly! If you think you have spotted the KD why say it? That is what begs modfire more than anything.

If I write in a code where every 27th letter of my posts spells out- "I am KD, please lynch person X" have I revealed? No, not if no one sees it.

If I do the same but two Ordos see it and follow it, have I revealed? No, not if they don't say anything to alert the rest of the village and Mod.

If I do the same but two Ordos talk too much about it and soon my role is an accepted fact, have I revealed? Darn right, I have.

However wrong it sounds logically, revealing is as much a function of reaction by the reader as it is action by the revealer.

[Mithalwen]

Eh? I am clearly missing something.... off too look.... is this a fishing expedition or are you serious? I always have a background level of suspicion of Nerwen because she is so clever but frankly there are at least six people I find more suspicious and four of them have voted for her so far.....

[the phantom]

but don't let phantom convince you I will make some miraculous return to save and prove some genius plan of his. I won't and if he tries that one again, he should probably be lynched.
*snicker*

It is I, Phantom, your secret village Seer! Folwren decided to have a Seer in this game but not tell anyone. And on Night 1 I discovered Boro was in fact a trusty WerePenguin!

If only he were here to prove me correct... :smokin:

[the phantom]

Anyway, could Mith & Sally please go ahead and vote for Nerwen, and could Boro and McCaber if they're around change their votes.

Because frankly I'd rather that my vote not be needed so that I can cast another joke-vote on Pitch.

[Mithalwen]

No Mith wouldn't because even if she did find Nerwen the most suspicious she doesn't find joke votes amusing.

[Finduilas]

Phantom, I understand your point (about not talking about it so directly), and in a sense I apologize... but not really. I think all the comments about modfiring need to be addressed. No one in this game has gotten anywhere close to a reveal, true or false (except you, you sneaky seer), so I was just saying that no one has cheated...

[the phantom]

Reasons to find Nerwen suspicious-

Nerwen, Bom, and Gal55 all used similar pack terminology right from the start. You know how that sort of thing works- if you discuss things with people certain ways of phrasing get stuck in your head.

Her attack on the trusty McCaber was unfair, as referenced here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660641&postcount=191).

And then there was her Day 1 reaction to my plan, reacted to here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660646&postcount=196) by Pitch (in the quote) and me.

[Mithalwen]

I have used pack terminology, found Mc Caber suspicious and was anti your plan. And I know I am ok.

[the phantom]

I have used pack terminology, found Mc Caber suspicious and was anti your plan.
You didn't use the terminology off the bat the same way the others did Day 1.

And the way in which you were anti-plan was much different. I mean really- go back and read Nerwen on Day 1. It definitely seems to be saying, "Crap, this sucks. Please rule against it, Moddess. But I'd better not say that- that would look too suspicious."

Not to mention she defended Gal55 (I forgot to mention that in my last post). Certainly that matters when added to the pile.

Plus there's the fact that some village members keep being right about things, so perhaps they are right again?
And I know I am ok.
Well of course you are. :)

[the phantom]

Anyway, there are only two options today- Nerwen and Pitch.

If you vote for Pitch, you must believe that Rikae was the KD. My post here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660806&postcount=300) says why that does not make sense.

So, the only option left is Nerwen, just as Gal55 was really the only option yesterday after her late-day squirming and suicide.

[the phantom]

Hmmm... Done some rereading, and....

I assume Sally will vote Nerwen, because if we go with the Rikae as KD option then Sally looks like the next logical lynch choice after Pitch, as Rikae's comment to her here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660663&postcount=211) was pretty well the only accusation Rikae made yesterday other than Pitch.

So, in order to vote Pitch today, Sally must also be evil.

Another reason why Nerwen seems the obvious choice.

[Mithalwen]

Not necessarily. There are retractable votes. I will have to vote for someone after missing the last one and I would prefer it to be a positive vote but...

[Mithalwen]

Not for me.

[the phantom]

Anyway, like I said, if you're going to vote for Pitch you must prove logically that Rikae was the KD.

Plus things will work the same, anyway. Lynch Pitch today, we probably just end up lynching Nerwen tomorrow anyway.

And if we lynch Nerwen today, we could very well end up having to lynch Pitch tomorrow (we can't be certain about special role instructions certain individuals may have been given).

So... be back later.

[Inziladun]

And fine, whatever. I suppose Zil's the other one.

Negative.

Eh? I am clearly missing something.... off too look.... is this a fishing expedition or are you serious? I always have a background level of suspicion of Nerwen because she is so clever but frankly there are at least six people I find more suspicious and four of them have voted for her so far.....

And who would be the better choices than Nerwen, and why?

x/d with phantom

[Finduilas]

And who would be the better choices than Nerwen, and why?



Well, if four of the six voted for Nerwen, that includes you, me, Eruhen, and Pitch. I'm guessing the reason Mith distrusts me is because I trust Pitch...?

[Finduilas]

Mith, all four of us can't be Forges...

anyhow, this is my last post for the Day. Chose wisely, my friends. :)

[Pitchwife]

You know what, I kind of like Findy's double-lynch idea.

[Inziladun]

You know what, I kind of like Findy's double-lynch idea.

Which would give Mith a perfect excuse to vote for you.

[the phantom]

Has Sally said anything about missing today?

[Inziladun]

Has Sally said anything about missing today?

Not that I can tell.

But this:

Huh. Well, that's interesting.

in reference to Rikae's killing is all we have from her toDay.

[the phantom]

You know what, I kind of like Findy's double-lynch idea.
Gah, don't say that. At least- it's not what you prefer you must admit. Laddie, it's no good trying to put a brave face on it- surely you're frightened of death.

I myself wouldn't object to the double lynch if it weren't for the fact that a double cannot be assured so long as there are retractable votes- someone could flip last second, and suddenly Nerwen isn't lynched at all.

Not that such a thing is likely, but it is too great a risk to take, I'd say.

[the phantom]

And with 25+ minutes left we have Nerwen up by one vote with Mith, Sally, and I left.

[Pitchwife]

I myself wouldn't object to the double lynch if it weren't for the fact that a double cannot be assured so long as there are retractable votes- someone could flip last second, and suddenly Nerwen isn't lynched at all.
And someone wouldn't even need retract for that to happen.

Not that such a thing is likely, but it is too great a risk to take, I'd say.
Not very likely, no. Or is it?

[the phantom]

Looks like I won't have the luxury of casting a throwaway vote on Pitch, as my vote appears necessary to do away with Nerwen.

[satansaloser2005]

Pressed for time. Can I get a vote count?

[the phantom]

I gave the vote count just two posts ago, Sally ;) (Nerwen ahead by one vote on Pitch).

[the phantom]

Now Sally, in case it matters, here are a couple of my posts-

here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660822&postcount=314) and here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660821&postcount=313) (the second contains a link to another good post)

[Mithalwen]

I don't see why Nerwen is so suspicious, I'd vote Pitch but I dont' want to risk a double lynch. That is crazy.

[the phantom]

Okay Sally, Mith, moment of truth...

[satansaloser2005]

Sorry and thanks respectively, dear.

++Nerwen

I can't believe I'm trusting Phantom right now. >.<

[the phantom]

I really really want to vote Pitch just so I can have an unblemished record of voting for him, but if you two don't vote for Nerwen I will.

[Mithalwen]

++Pitchwife

[the phantom]

Ooo, double lynch! Double lynch!!

++Pitch

[Pitchwife]

DL, I think?

[Mithalwen]

Blasst curse you dongle...

[the phantom]

Yes indeed- deadline.

*places hands firmly over mouth*

[Mithalwen]

Unless we get credit for late start inwhich case

--Pitchwife

++Sally

[Folwren]

No credit, sorry. Narration coming up. Sorry for the delay of two hours, sheesh...Two plus hours, really, because now I have to write it.

[Folwren]

The general dwarven populace was confused about the Forge’s kill of the previous night. “Why did they kill him? Why one of their own?”

“Don’t you know?” a small voice asked. They turned. It was a young dwarf woman. She looked at each of them carefully before continuing. “One of them was a traitor to their fellowship. He had been amongst them for some time now, and he was the one giving away their secrets. That is why you were able to find and kill some so easily the past couple evenings. I thought you knew.”

“Haha!” they cried, their eyes gleaming. “Then if this was their traitor, who are the ones he suspected, quick, who knows?”

They spent hours discussing the likely dwarves. But again, the dwarf woman said.

“He wasn’t their traitor. It was somebody else.”

“We cannot be certain,” a dwarf said, sharply. “You shouldn’t speak so.”

The girl’s eyes glimmered. “I don’t speak so unwittingly. I know what it is I say. That dead dwarf there,” she pointed to the body still lying untouched due to the heat of their argument, “is not the King’s messenger, who has infiltrated their fellowship.”

“Here are our last two Forge members!” someone shouted. There was a scuffling and scraping, and two dwarves were dragged forward. Their shirts had been torn and their shoulders exposed, and the brand clear to see to all. The sight infuriated the crowd, and they began to chant:

“Kill them! Kill them! Kill them both!”

“Let us hang them from the highest tree!” “Burn them in their own forge!” “Kill them!”

Like a mighty river, the two dwarves were swept away by the others, pushed and shoved and dragged to the place of their death. Pushing through the mob, but ever behind her goal, came the dwarf woman who had spoken up, trying to gain someone’s attention, anyone –

“No! You can’t kill them both. I know who it is! You cannot kill him with the guilty one!”

To the mighty oak that stood at their town square they went. Someone brought rope and in a matter of minutes they had made their nooses and thrown the ropes up over two strong limbs. Many hands reached out to help heave them up, suspending their kicking feet in the air.

The dwarf woman drew near, staring up at one of them, and then she turned to the crowd and said, her voice shaking with emotion and rebuke,

“You have killed the dwarf the King sent to save us. And he has saved us. This is how you thank him and King Dáin.”

Village Dwarves win. The Valley Forge is defeated. The King's Dwarf completed his mission, but died while doing so.

Alive
Sally
Inzil
Boro
Eruhen
Finduilas
McCaber
the Phantom
Mithalwen

Dead
Folwren - Moddess
Bom - Member of the Valley Forge
Wilwa - Night Watchdwarf
Glirdan - Ordo
Gal55 - Member of the Valley Forge
Rikae - Member of the Valley Forge
Nerwen - Member of the Valley Forge
Pitchwife - Member of the Valley Forge and the King's Dwarf

[McCaber]

WOOOOOOOO!!! Nice game, everyone.

Although I was only two for three in my initial picks, but Nerwen would have been my fourth. I guess we can't win 'em all.