WW LXXXVII - The Valley Forge

[Folwren]

The dwarves of Erebor have fallen into dark times. A threat has come from the Dark Lord Sauron. His Nazgul demand allegiance, in reward for which of three Dwarven rings will be given. King Dáin wants nothing to do with it and has twice put off the messenger. But the messenger is going to come again, a third and last time, and he wants an answer, or war may break out.

But there is also a growing threat from within. Some dwarves do not like the king’s decision. They know the folly of defying Lord Sauron, and they also know that power could be gained if they received the three promised rings. A small group of dwarves in one corner of the community has decided to take matters into their own hands. They have formed a party, made themselves a name, and created a secret society. During the day, they attempt to persuade their fellow dwarves to rise in a revolt against the king and take what is offered them from Lord Sauron. At night, they go forth and execute any who stand in their way, making examples of them for anyone else who wishes to stand against them.

King Dáin knew not how to put down this inward uprising and deal with the traitors. He sent trusted dwarves down to the area where the killings were occurring, but these dwarves were murdered or sent back with their beards shaven and with the society’s brand imprinted on their shoulder.

Finally, one dwarf stepped forward and promised results, or his life forfeit. “Indeed,” the king told him grimly, “your life will be forfeit. For if you fail to bring down this uprising, those members of the Valley Forge will save me the trouble of removing your head.”

The dwarf bowed and withdrew from the king’s presence and set himself the task of learning the workings of the society of the Valley Forge. When he deemed himself ready, he traveled to the corner of Erebor where the Forge held its reign of terror. He quickly blended into the darkest parts and amongst the darkest dwarves of the place. In time, he was brought before the Forge’s leader, questioned, put through the trials of a new member, and permitted to enter into the society.

But in secret, he had already planted the first seeds of his real work. He had stirred the people up with ideas and rumors. The terrified dwarves were tired of being bullied and killed at whim, and as the king seemed to be doing nothing about it, they would do something for themselves. It was decided that they must purge the place of the evil dwarves, and each day a trial would be held and each night, they would decide on who was most likely to be part of the Valley Forge. And for such dwarves, there was only one punishment: death.

Night One begins in five minutes.

Players
Sally
Inzil
Nerwen
Boro
Galadriel
Eruhen
Bom
Glirdan
Finduilas
Rikae
McCaber
Wilwarin
Pitchwife
the Phantom
Mithalwen

[Folwren]

Night One

Their gathering place was dark, save for a few burning torches that flickered in the brackets on the wall. At the far end of the room, a fire burned. He stood facing a golden bearded dwarf who questioned him while the other members of the Forge stood in the shadows.

“You know the purpose of our company?”

“I do. It is to persuade our fellow dwarves to take the wisest course of action in regards to Lord Sauron’s offer.”

“And you are of one mind with us?”

“I am. It is our duty to remove any obstacles that stand in our way to accomplishing our goal.”

“And you are willing to endure the tests to join us?”

“I am.”

The dwarf nodded his head to another standing behind dwarf being thus questioned. Immediately, a black cloth was bound across his eyes.

“If you are brave enough, take two steps forward.”

The black bearded dwarf felt the sharp prick of a blade’s point at his chest, but he did not hesitate as he took two steps forward, pushing boldly against it. The pressure melted away as he advanced and from the dwarves surrounding him, there was an approving murmur.

“While working with us, you must trust and obey orders explicitly. If you are able and willing to do so, walk forward and do not stop until I tell you.”

This time, there was no obstacle in his way and he strode forward, blind as he was, until he had taken five strides and he felt the heat of the fire on his face and hands. Still he walked on, until he felt he must be about to step into the very flame. Then the commanding dwarf said from behind – “Stop!” He stopped, and waited, the heat from the furnace beating upon him. Then he was ordered to step back three steps.

“The final test is that of pain. Can you endure it?”

“I can.”

Immediately, his right arm was seized by the shoulder and elbow. The sleeve was torn open and then he growled fiercely while biting back a cry as a burning such as he had never endured during his work at his forge pressed against his shoulder. They released him and the blind fold was removed from his eyes.

“Welcome our newest companion,” the Forge leader said. “Galin Ironfist is now one of us.”

Galin turned, his eyes blazing with a dull, dark fire. His shoulder throbbed where the sign of the Valley Forge was branded into his flesh. He looked from beneath his dark brows from one member to the next, memorizing their faces, and thinking silently to himself,

So. Now I know. These they are that I must bring down, or go down in my attempt.

Night one has begun. Forge members may PM each other. Sweetheart, send me your names.

Players
Sally
Inzil
Nerwen
Boro
Galadriel
Eruhen
Bom
Glirdan
Finduilas
Rikae
McCaber
Wilwarin
Pitchwife
the Phantom
Mithalwen

[Folwren]

Day One

The tests being completed and the ordeals well born, the new member of the Valley Forge was welcomed in on the meeting. He did not speak much, but he listened very attentively to the proceedings. They spoke at length of what the Forge’s next actions should be, and the threats related to their occupation.

“There’s dark work being done,” one dwarf said. “The dwarves here are becoming fierce.”

“What do you expect? I say we’ve pushed them too hard, too fast.”

“It’s not our fault. We’re just doing what’s best. We don’t have very much time. Lord Sauron’s messenger will be returning soon – we must have enough dwarves on our side before he returns.”

“You both are on the wrong scent,” a third dwarf observed. He looked dangerous, and his voice was grim as he spoke. He cast a glance about the circle of dwarves. “King Dáin has sent another dwarf to put a stop to us. I’ve heard rumor of him in the streets, but I’ve never gotten a chance to clap eyes on the fellow. If I had, our job would be easy.” He drew his finger across his throat in an unmistakable gesture. "But he’s trickier than the others Dáin has sent. He’s avoided detection while at the same time he’s caused unrest among the dwarves. They’re ready to strike against us, the fools, and I have little doubt it will come to violence.”

“We must take down the King’s dwarf and therefore take away their driving force.”

“How do we do that?”

“Find someone he has had contact with and question them.”

“I know of one. Many of the messages and word has come from her, so I believe she must be in close contact with him. It is Folwren.”

The leader of the Forge drove his fist into his knee as he growled a curse. “We should have dealt with her a long time ago.” He looked about at his dwarves and then nodded in decision. "I and two others will take care of this. Galin Ironfist, this shall be your first mission. Who else? Frer. Good. Come, then.”

Through the dark of night, the three companions stole through the streets of the village. They came to Folwren’s home, a low stone house standing alone. Galin was ordered within. “Use your knife,” they told him. "Make it quiet and swift. We may be in danger here if she is in close contact with the king’s messenger. We will stand watch outside.”

Galin slipped within and found Folwren fast asleep on her bed. He slipped a hand over her mouth and she woke with a gasp. He warned her to be silent and then let her go. “What are you doing here?” she whispered. “Do you not know it is dangerous?”

He nodded his head and said close to her ear, “I am part of the Forge now. I have come with two companions and they have sent me in to kill you.”

There was a long pause and then Folwren murmured. “I see. You must do it, of course. There is no other way.”

“Yes,” was all he said.

“You must find someone to help you in your purpose. Someone you can trust and send ahead to warn people, for you cannot do it yourself.”

“I will try.” He reached beneath the folds of his cloak and drew his dagger. “I am sorry.”

Folrwen took his hand and guided the dagger point above her heart. She looked him straight in the eye. “So that others may be saved, I die. We are both servants of the king, and this is a war that must be fought. Do what you know must be done and do not regret it.”

A moment later, muffled bootsteps crept across the floor of the house and voice whispered in the darkness, “Ironfist! Is it finished?”

“Aye,” he said, aloud. “It is done and I have written the warning.”

***

The next morning, when a neighboring dwarf found Folwren’s body, he also found a parchment with writing in blood.

She aided the enemy of the Forge, and thus shall be the fate of all who try to stand against us.

Day One has begun.

Alive
Sally
Inzil
Nerwen
Boro
Galadriel
Eruhen
Bom
Glirdan
Finduilas
Rikae
McCaber
Wilwarin
Pitchwife
the Phantom
Mithalwen

Dead
Folwren - Moddess

[the phantom]

I’m sure everyone else has thought of this already, but I just want to be the first one to say it.

King’s Dwarf- please die as soon as possible- as in the first two days. The instant you die and we see your role revealed, we can simply look at which individuals you suspected and lynch them, and presto! Game over. Good guys win. And if the bad dwarves figure out immediately Day 1 that you're the KD, so what? What are they going to do about it? Kill you? *snicker*

Sweetheart- find the King’s Dwarf as soon as possible, as once you find him it will make it more likely that he will die (due to him protecting you at night plus once you know who he is you can lynch him).

Now obviously KD, you can’t purposefully try and die too obviously, as that would count as revealing, but I’m sure you’re clever enough to figure something out. You know which people are likely to bite back if you attack them and so on.

And quick word of advice to the Sweetheart- don’t waste your time. I’m quite busy with my smithing, digging, and other dwarf stuff and have no interest in starting a family at the moment. Plus you’re just not my type. Uuuuuuuugly.

(Though I'm not sure why I bothered to say that. No doubt I was one of the people checked by the Sweetheart on the first night. Everyone wants a piece of Phantom.)

Be back later. Have fun.

[satansaloser2005]

Sweetie, you wouldn't want to have kids with him anyway. He already neglects the one he's got, so what would he do with more?



Phantom is clearly evil, regardless of his possible role. We should lynch him straightaway.

[wilwarin538]

Yay, I'm playing a WW game!!!! It's been so long, hopefully I'm not too rusty.

So KD is like a reverse cobbler, the baddies think he's one of them, but he really wants them dead? That's pretty brilliant. And if he can give a heads up to the watchdwarf that should decrease the number of night kills substantially. But we need to kill the KD in order to win, right? So really everyone wants him dead, but the baddies want him dead ASAP, while we'd maybe like to keep him around a bit longer so he can help out the watchdwarf. Hopefully I'm understanding this all correctly.

I don't work til much later tomorrow, so I should be able to come on quite a bit toDay.

[Inziladun]

So KD is like a reverse cobbler, the baddies think he's one of them, but he really wants them dead? That's pretty brilliant. And if he can give a heads up to the watchdwarf that should decrease the number of night kills substantially. But we need to kill the KD in order to win, right? So really everyone wants him dead, but the baddies want him dead ASAP, while we'd maybe like to keep him around a bit longer so he can help out the watchdwarf. Hopefully I'm understanding this all correctly.

Ideally, the KD would be the last Forge member alive, and could hopefully then make xemself so suspicious so as to be an obvious lynch choice. A tough job, though.

And as phantom said, the KD could certainly give clues to help ferret out xyr packmates as well.

[Bom Tombadillo]

*cough* Would the Weredwarves care to reveal?

. . .

No? Ah well.

[Mithalwen]

I am here but sleepy so I might have a little sleep since nothing really to add save to express my deep joy that even in the first post Phantom is telling people what to do. That went badly last time ...may be time to revive my prejudice against first posters. Maybe the sweetheart just isn't that into him....

And if I am going into irrational prejudice (and appalling heartburn encourages such things) BT's invitation to the Dwarves just rings alarm bells. One to watch maybe. Night all....

[Pitchwife]

King’s Dwarf- please die as soon as possible- as in the first two days. The instant you die and we see your role revealed, we can simply look at which individuals you suspected and lynch them, and presto! Game over. Good guys win. And if the bad dwarves figure out immediately Day 1 that you're the KD, so what? What are they going to do about it? Kill you? *snicker*
Good thinking there - provided that the KD would be willing to sacrifice his personal winning condition for the sake of a village victory. Also, KD, try to get lynched rather than Night-killed to avoid a double kill.

Sweetheart- find the King’s Dwarf as soon as possible, as once you find him it will make it more likely that he will die (due to him protecting you at night plus once you know who he is you can lynch him).
Like this as well. If nothing else, finding each other will make both your lives a little easier for a while - though maybe shorter; anyway, once you have found the KD and while he's alive, you should strive for the reverse manner of death (i.e. Night-kill rather than lynching).

And quick word of advice to the Sweetheart- don’t waste your time. I’m quite busy with my smithing, digging, and other dwarf stuff and have no interest in starting a family at the moment. Plus you’re just not my type. Uuuuuuuugly.
Now this looks just like you're one of those Dwarves who prefer ogling long-legged elven blondes to doing their duty for the proliferation of our kind. No wonder we Khazâd are a dwindling race.

But we need to kill the KD in order to win, right?
Depends on who you mean by we:p. Technically, we don't, as he counts as an innocent in the tally IIRC - but phantom's plan does have a certain appeal.

*cough* Would the Weredwarves care to reveal?
Naughty boy! Reveals are forbidden, remember? Or are you trying to get the Forgers modfired? If so, nice attempt, but I don't think it'll be that easy.

[the phantom]

Good thinking there - provided that the KD would be willing to sacrifice his personal winning condition for the sake of a village victory.
What do you mean, "sacrifice his personal winning condition"? All I see in the rules is this-
The King's Dwarf has succeeded in his mission when all of the Forge members are dead.
So if he fingers the forge members then gets himself killed, and then we lynch the baddies, he wins.

The rules don't say he has to live to achieve victory. It merely says he wins if the baddies die. So if he hands us the knowledge to kill the baddies, it doesn't matter if he lives or dies. It isn't truly a sacrifice on his part, it's an intelligent strategic move. The KD has no reason not to be on board with this so far as I can tell.

(No doubt the Forge members in their conversations at night have tried or will try to convince the KD that he has some sort of reason to play nice, or worry about dying, etc. in order to fool him into giving up his power. Hopefully he sees through their mind games.)
But we need to kill the KD in order to win, right? So really everyone wants him dead, but the baddies want him dead ASAP, while we'd maybe like to keep him around a bit longer so he can help out the watchdwarf.
Nope. It would be preferable to lynch the KD on Day 1. Then when we see his identity, we'll look back at his posts and see he suspects persons X, Y, and Z, and then we lynch them, knowing that they are the Forge members.

And like I said, it doesn't matter if the KD goes after the Forge hardcore during the day, because they'll be too terrified to off him at night, as it would reveal their own identity.

Can anyone see anything wrong with this?

[the phantom]

Quick note to the KD- if you're on board with the plan, don't suspect the Forge members too early in the day before anyone else is showing any suspicions, as that would be too obvious- particularly if you strongly suspect exactly three people too early on, as that would possibly qualify under Foley's rules as a "reveal", thus sabotaging the game.

I want to lynch you, but I don't want to ruin things by getting you modfired. ;)

[Bom Tombadillo]

I'm back!

Naughty boy! Reveals are forbidden, remember? Or are you trying to get the Forgers modfired? If so, nice attempt, but I don't think it'll be that easy.

Er, yes, that's . . . exactly what I was doing . . . :rolleyes:

[Boromir88]

I forgot phantom joined the crew, but alas he had to make sure we all remembered within the first 10 seconds.

[the phantom]

I forgot phantom joined the crew
Whatever.

You know good and well you squealed and wet yourself with excitement when you saw my name on Foley's list.

[Bom Tombadillo]

"Alas," you say? A wolf desperately trying to kill the second-deadliest member of the village day 1? Not unlikely, I think. :D

EDIT; X'd with the phantom.

[the phantom]

"Alas," you say? A wolf desperately trying to kill the second-deadliest member of the village day 1?
I was about to take offense at this, but then I remembered that under this setup the KD is technically more deadly than Phantom.

Ugh, it kills me to admit that.

[Boromir88]

Whatever.

You know good and well you squealed and wet yourself with excitement when you saw my name on Foley's list.

I'm afraid among other males only Jon Stewart could get that reaction from me. There was a time when I appreciated the brazen ego with the brilliant intellect. I didn't think it possible your ego could get any bigger, but that's what blind hero-worship does.

The irrational side of me wants nothing more than to see you lynched, but the utiltarian in me says you're so remarkably useful it would be foolish to waste a dwarf of your talents.

[the phantom]

I'm afraid among other males only Jon Stewart could get that reaction from me.
But what about..... SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHH!!!!

:smokin:

[Boromir88]

But what about..... SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHH!!!!

:smokin:

hehe, ok you're right about that too. I fell in love last pre-season when he tossed a QB around like a rag doll, and then right out of the gates this year he nearly ripped the head off of another one.

Oh wait, this is werewolf. Ok, werewolf we're playing, lets try to lynch an evil dwarf by sheer random luck today. Is all luck, random?

[Eruhen]

I have nothing to add to the discussion so far, except that this is going to be an interesting game. It seems that we have been cursed to live in interesting times.

[Pitchwife]

The rules don't say he has to live to achieve victory. It merely says he wins if the baddies die.
Hmm, interesting. The N1 narration says
These they are that I must bring down, or go down in my attempt.
I read that as an exclusive or, but it could actually be inclusive, so the KD might be allowed to share a village victory even if dead, more or less like a cobbler earning bragging rights by sacrificing themselves to help the wolves win. Revisiting the rules, it looks like you're probably right.

I'm afraid among other males only Jon Stewart could get that reaction from me.
As long as it's not Jon Snow...

[the phantom]

Ok, werewolf we're playing, lets try to lynch an evil dwarf by sheer random luck today.
Until someone convinces me otherwise I'm trying to kill the KD today actually. But as you said, any effort will require some luck.

[Galadriel55]

This looks like the loudest beginning of Day One ever.

What do you mean, "sacrifice his personal winning condition"?

Well, you can't win if you're dead. The way I understood it is that the KD wins if he's alive and all the Forge members are dead. If he dies during the game, but the Forgers are also eliminated, then he doesn't lose. But doesn't win either.

The irrational side of me wants nothing more than to see you lynched, but the utiltarian in me says you're so remarkably useful it would be foolish to waste a dwarf of your talents.

THIS. If we only knew which side those talents are on...

Bom, I think I'm used to your weird joke-posting ways, but that "wolves - reveal!" was just plain silly.

Can anyone see anything wrong with this?

Nothing really. Except -

We are just as likely to lynch the wrong person. You might as well call it a reveal if we all agree that everyone except for the KD should do something/say something/ etc. If the KD realy stands out by acting suspicious on purpose, it amounts to the same thing. It's like, "ok, KD, we all step back and you make yourself look like a wolf, and then we know who you are". It's the revealing-without-actually-revealing scenario.

So we would have to find the KD based on "trying to look ordinary like everyone else" behaviour. And that brings us back to the classical WW game plan. We're just as likely to lynch a a notable ordo as the KD. Or get the Watchdwarf or sweetheart. Or fenris a wolf.

I'm not really sure if what I just said makes sense. It probably doesn't. I don't even remember what was my point when I started writing this. :rolleyes: But anyways, I have nothing against that plan, except that maybe we should give equal attention to the wolves as the KD instead of focusing only on the latter.

Edit: xed with Eruhen, Pitch, and tp

[Galadriel55]

I have nothing to add to the discussion so far, except that this is going to be an interesting game. It seems that we have been cursed to live in interesting times.

Nothing to add? What about your opinion of Phantom's scheme? (Even though he won't accept anything short of "brilliant"... :p)

But yes, definitely cursed to live in, as you put it, interesting times... Mith will like this reference...

Until someone convinces me otherwise I'm trying to kill the KD today actually. But as you said, any effort will require some luck.

We need Bilbo. He's always lucky.

[Pitchwife]

We need Bilbo. He's always lucky.
Unfortunately, he's way west of this Mountain, retired in Rivendell; so no luck, I'm afraid.

Anyway, bedtime for me. See you all (and some others, hopefully) in the morning.

[the phantom]

This looks like the loudest beginning of Day One ever.
*snicker* Not even close, m'dear. We're still on the first page. ;)
Well, you can't win if you're dead.
Since when? This has always been a team game. If your team is the last one left standing, then you win- particularly if in life or in death you aided the efforts of your teammates. Now seriously, stop this business of trying to convince the KD that he isn't a winner if he dies. It really looks suspicious. Seriously, it does.
You might as well call it a reveal if we all agree that everyone except for the KD should do something/say something/ etc. If the KD realy stands out by acting suspicious on purpose, it amounts to the same thing.
I already addressed that here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660391&postcount=12). That will make things easier for him, not to mention I plan on doing my part to provide cover to him (by starting to suspect people as the day wears on). If other people have suspects then it will keep him from looking too obvious. Of course it will be more difficult to identify him that way, but we'll just have to leave it to him and hope he can manage to get himself killed without wearing a "kill me" sign.

Heh- it's lucky that I'm not the KD. That's the one thing I'm not particularly good at- getting lynched. :p

[Eruhen]

Well, if you want my opinion of Phantom's plan, the terms 'insane', 'wild-goose chase', and 'disturbingly lupine' spring immediately to mind. I'm going to need to think about it more, though.

Seems to me that while lynching the KD is the way to go (if the other option is having him killed and potentially losing the Sweetheart too), doing so on Day 1 seems counter-productive, especially since the Watchdwarf will then be shooting in the dark (or would that be 'Dark'?) as to who to protect during the Nights.

[Inziladun]

Until someone convinces me otherwise I'm trying to kill the KD today actually. But as you said, any effort will require some luck.

A great deal of luck. Singling out someone as potentially evil because they're making allegations or whatnot, is basically what happens all the time, and gets innocents lynched.

You might as well call it a reveal if we all agree that everyone except for the KD should do something/say something/ etc. If the KD realy stands out by acting suspicious on purpose, it amounts to the same thing. It's like, "ok, KD, we all step back and you make yourself look like a wolf, and then we know who you are". It's the revealing-without-actually-revealing scenario.

I think that sort of thing might be frowned upon by the moddess, judging from things she's said in the Admin Thread (*cough* Sally *cough*) ;)

x/d with Pitch, tp, and Eruhen.

[the phantom]

Seems to me that while lynching the KD is the way to go
doing so on Day 1 seems counter-productive, especially since the Watchdwarf will then be shooting in the dark (or would that be 'Dark'?) as to who to protect during the Nights.
Come now, that doesn't make sense. You think it's good to kill the KD, but not at the start?!

The later the game wears on the more dire our situation becomes, and the less we can afford to make an incorrect lynch. Right at the start is the perfect time to lynch the KD.

And who cares if the Watchdwarf doesn't know what to do so long as we know precisely who the Forge members are. Not to mention how much guidance can the KD really give the Watchdwarf? He has to send his instructions before the night conversations have even started, and once those start the other Forge members are going to be wary of any of their number attempting to push a certain candidate, particularly if that same Forge member spent the day suspecting the other Forge members.

[Inziladun]

Seems to me that while lynching the KD is the way to go (if the other option is having him killed and potentially losing the Sweetheart too), doing so on Day 1 seems counter-productive, especially since the Watchdwarf will then be shooting in the dark (or would that be 'Dark'?) as to who to protect during the Nights.

Which would certainly be a disadvantage, to be sure. The KD would have to give unmistakable hints as to xyr mates to make it worthwhile.

[Inziladun]

And who cares if the Watchdwarf doesn't know what to do so long as we know precisely who the Forge members are. Not to mention how much guidance can the KD really give the Watchdwarf? He has to send his instructions before the night conversations have even started, and once those start the other Forge members are going to be wary of any of their number attempting to push a certain candidate, particularly if that same Forge member spent the day suspecting the other Forge members.

Ah. Forgot about the timing of the Watchdwarf's message. That makes sense, then. Well, let's see what the Day brings, whether the KD xemself approves.

[Eruhen]

Phantom, I can't see how your plan is any different than what normally happens on Day 1. Accusations and innuendos are thrown around, nothing can really be determined because we have no prior votes to go off of, and everyone ends up lynching whoever is most suspicious to them.

Odds are that we'll probably end up just offing an ordo, like usual. It's going to take a lot of luck to either get a fenris or make the KD dance the hemp fandango.

I just don't see how the KD could potentially make xymself a target without breaking our moddess' 'no reveals' rule, as both G55 and Inzil have stated.

[Mithalwen]

As long as it's not Jon Snow...

The veteran newscaster and one time vice-chancellor or one of my alma maters? Rather random choice and personally I would prefer his rather dashing young cousin Dan but each to their own.....

Hmm Eruhen, I don't think we have met but you amuse me. You might be a keeper.... Galadriel you know me too well..... :D I suppose I ought to go to bed instead of listening to some woman fretting about motherhood. Don't know why she is bothering she appears to have called her daughter Cocoa which is pretty much total fail from get go..... presumably any future siblings will be Horlicks and Ovaltine... rambling now but I needed to share the lunacy...

[the phantom]

Phantom, I can't see how your plan is any different than what normally happens on Day 1. Accusations and innuendos are thrown around, nothing can really be determined because we have no prior votes to go off of, and everyone ends up lynching whoever is most suspicious to them.
The difference is that we don't lynch the most suspicious person this time, but rather we try and lynch the KD. Not that our chances are astronomical, but it requires a slightly different process.
I just don't see how the KD could potentially make xymself a target without breaking our moddess' 'no reveals' rule, as both G55 and Inzil have stated.
It's possible. Not easy, but possible. Especially if you have people like me floating around just itching to make the lynch.

[Inziladun]

Especially if you have people like me floating around just itching to make the lynch.

"Floating"? "Itching"? The mystery is solved. The phantom is a mosquito. :p

[Inziladun]

Or not. At any rate, tp is doing his usual to bring the focus on him from the get-go.

Seems there are quite a few who have yet to make an appearance toDay.

[Boromir88]

Or not. At any rate, tp is doing his usual to bring the focus on him from the get-go.

Seems there are quite a few who have yet to make an appearance toDay.

I'm going to assume they're thinking like me, and that is waiting for phantom's brilliance to win. Why pile on more work for yourself now, right?

I think I can predict Day 2 discussion already...It's going to be phantom's genius is obviously too advanced for the time, and thus has no chance to succeed. Everyone scraps the idea completely and ignores it. Some will argue tp deserves to be lynched for it, others will defend him with much gusto and flair. Some will choose to look at votes to cast suspicion, some will fling out the most outrageous claims based on gut feelings, some won't have our best interest at hearts, and some will continue to vote randomly do to lack of time.

The positive news is there really can be no disastrous lynches on Day 1, as too often you see with gifteds getting lynched early. I mean, the one we most don't want to lynch would be the Watchdwarf, because I think tp's biggest point is the KD would serve us better as a known dead than an unknown cobbler against the Forge.

[Finduilas]

Oh dear, how terribly confusing.

I think it would be rather unfun if the KD did stuff purposely to die. I don't think that the plan is fool-proof, though of course, any werewolf strategy usually isn't (that is, if werewolf is enough like Mafia for me to be able to say that). And also, Phantom suggested that the Sweetheart be a turncoat and do her best to get the fellow killed. That's just wrong... from a story point of view. As to whether it's logical game-wise, I'll think about it as I lay in bed tonight thinking about evil dwarves. Not that me thinking it logical changes anything... But it would still be wrong...

Um, on a side note as an ignorant beginner, what does e/x, exed, xed stand for?

[Inziladun]

The positive news is there really can be no disastrous lynches on Day 1, as too often you see with gifteds getting lynched early.

I suppose that's true. Any lynch of a non-wolf is bad, but here the odds of hitting the Watchdwarf are pretty low. Then again, how often have Seers been lynched on Day 1? :rolleyes:


Um, on a side note as an ignorant beginner, what does e/x, exed, xed stand for?

All are ways to indicate you've cross-posted with someone.

[Finduilas]

All are ways to indicate you've cross-posted with someone.

Thanks. Figured, but didn't want to assume.

[Boromir88]

I suppose that's true. Any lynch of a non-wolf is bad, but here the odds of hitting the Watchdwarf are pretty low. Then again, how often have Seers been lynched on Day 1? :rolleyes:


Or the previous one where the hunter got into trouble and his main target on Day 1 was the ranger. :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

The positive news is there really can be no disastrous lynches on Day 1
Yes, the fact that there is no Seer makes me much more at ease today than I usually am with a Day 1 lynch (where I customarily try to lynch an Ordo just to avoid the gifteds).

Ha ha, and your Day 2 prediction is just so right! :D
Seems there are quite a few who have yet to make an appearance toDay.
Yeah, still waiting.
And also, Phantom suggested that the Sweetheart be a turncoat and do her best to get the fellow killed.
Ah, but if he's actually wishing to die, she wouldn't be betraying him by helping him carry out his wishes, would she? ;)

[the phantom]

Um, on a side note as an ignorant beginner, what does e/x, exed, xed stand for?
All are ways to indicate you've cross-posted with someone.
Oh! THAT'S what it means! All this time I thought it was supposed to be an insult, along the lines of "screw you", only the more hostile version.

I mean, people were always saying, "Xed Phantom", so I just assumed...

[Boromir88]

Ah, but if he's actually wishing to die, she wouldn't be betraying him by helping him carry out his wishes, would she? ;)

Who doesn't love a nice Shakespearean romance?

[Galadriel55]

I think I can predict Day 2 discussion already...It's going to be phantom's genius is obviously too advanced for the time, and thus has no chance to succeed. Everyone scraps the idea completely and ignores it. Some will argue tp deserves to be lynched for it, others will defend him with much gusto and flair. Some will choose to look at votes to cast suspicion, some will fling out the most outrageous claims based on gut feelings, some won't have our best interest at hearts, and some will continue to vote randomly do to lack of time.

Most definitely. :D

Who doesn't love a nice Shakespearean romance?

Should the sweetheart pretend to die, so that the KD would kill himself to? Nay, I think that WW games resemble A Midsummer Night's Dream more than that tragedy stuff.


To say something of content, I think I will save my opinion on who to lynch until more people have posted. I am willing to follow tp's plan for now and lynch the KD, and I wouldn't mind getting a wolf either. However, the main issue here is who to lynch, not which role.

*yawns* Bedtime for now. I hope to see other posters in the morning.

[Nerwen]

ARRGH! I only just got my computer back and– the game's started already!:eek:

I'll post more when I've had time to read.

[McCaber]

Well, should we each give a list of three people we randomly suspect?

In which case I'll go with Rikae, Glirdy, and Pitchwife.

[Nerwen]

So, a quick comment:

I think we need some word-of-mod before we adopt phantom's plan– since it would, in effect, end the game immediately, unless I've much misunderstood the way the roles work.

[the phantom]

Well, should we each give a list of three people we randomly suspect?
Hmmm... I suppose if enough people did it... And just to make certain the KD has appropriate cover, I'll try not to change my suspicions from today to tomorrow, as he won't be shifting his suspicions either. At least one other person should probably do the same to make certain the KD isn't officially "revealed" to everyone.
since it would, in effect, end the game immediately
Only if we lynch him correctly. If we don't, it could very well make things harder, as the Forge will know who the traitor is immediately.

[Nerwen]

Hmmm... I suppose if enough people did it... And just to make certain the KD has appropriate cover, I'll try not to change my suspicions from today to tomorrow, as he won't be shifting his suspicions either. At least one other person should probably do the same to make certain the KD isn't officially "revealed" to everyone.

Originally Posted by Nerwen
since it would, in effect, end the game immediately

Only if we lynch him correctly. If we don't, it could very well make things harder, as the Forge will know who the traitor is immediately.
Yes, I'm aware of that. So if we go ahead, it means either an instant victory (but one that would feel to me, at least, not unlike cheating), or else the village shooting itself in its collective foot pretty badly. Not that keen on it, myself.

And even if I end up being in a minority on this, I think we should ask Foley first.

[the phantom]

Okay Nerwen, I understand what you're saying. All right then- if this plot is not going to be allowed, we need to find out as soon as possible before the KD gives us the three candidates and essentially outs himself to the Forge for nothing.

Though seeing as McCaber has already put out three names, it's sort of a sticky situation.

I'm all for it of course, but naturally if Foley says anything against it I'll back down.

[Nerwen]

Okay Nerwen, I understand what you're saying. All right then- if this plot is not going to be allowed, we need to find out as soon as possible before the KD gives us the three candidates and essentially outs himself to the Forge for nothing.

Though seeing as McCaber has already put out three names, it's sort of a sticky situation.

Thing is, I doubt the actual KD would jump straight into it like that.

[Mithalwen]

Well I just think it is against the spirit of the game so if that is the way you want to go I am out. It would be a rather pointless game no matter how clever the loophole.

[Mithalwen]

And I meant out of the plot not out of the game - I think it is unsporting, like shooting foxes.....

[Galadriel55]

TP's plan discarded already? Wow. Boro's predictions for D2 are already happening in D1.

I don't think it's that much of a problem if we do it the honest WW way - pick the most "suspicious" person at random (:rolleyes::D), just instead of aiming for a wolf you aim for the KD.

But, like Nerwen said, even if the plan is allowed, it might backfire badly.

So how about we try to get a Forge member toDay, like we always do. If we get one, it's a good thing. If we don't - it happens. If we get the KD - you can almost call it an accident. If we get the watchman - well, let's just try not to get the watchman. In other words, no special plans, just regular WW Day 1.

[Galadriel55]

Also, KD, Sweetheart, and Watchdwarf know something we all don't. Maybe it won't be any good for them - and us - if we lynch the KD early on. Or maybe it won't matter. I don't know. But they have supersecret abilities, and we don't know what they are, and how it can affec the game.

[Boromir88]

So how about we try to get a Forge member toDay, like we always do. If we get one, it's a good thing. If we don't - it happens. If we get the KD - you can almost call it an accident. If we get the watchman - well, let's just try not to get the watchman. In other words, no special plans, just regular WW Day 1.

And that's the crux of the matter. With no reveals, no matter what role we're aiming to lynch, the result is more likely to be something different anyway. I mean we are trying to lynch a forge every day technically, and how often does that happen? I think you summed it up best yesterday with, the main issue being who to lynch, not which role.

The thing I don't get tp is if you aren't the KD, as you say, how are you hoping to provide cover to the KD from the Forge? Isn't the KD in conversation with the other 3 Forge members, and thus the Forge knows 1 out of 4 is the KD? It'll just be a matter of debate on when do the Forge realize who amongst them is the KD and whether they want to risk it, since there is the risk they kill one of their own, instead of the KD.

[the phantom]

The thing I don't get tp is if you aren't the KD, as you say, how are you hoping to provide cover to the KD from the Forge?
I never said we could give him cover from the Forge- what we can give him is cover from modfire (by a couple of us maintaining the same suspects thus not making it clear immediately which person is obviously the KD thus earning modfire).

Anyway, gotta run. I'm driving several hundred miles today. Hopefully I'll get a chance to vote before I leave in half an hour or so.

[Nerwen]

I never said we could give him cover from the Forge- what we can give him is cover from modfire (by a couple of us maintaining the same suspects thus not making it clear immediately which person is obviously the KD thus earning modfire).
Well, I assumed that's what you meant– but, look, you've basically said it yourself now, tp: you know the rules were intended to prevent exactly this kind of thing. And I signed up to play Werewolf, not "find-the-loophole".:rolleyes:

...I see we have, as usual, managed to spend the Day so far talking about phantom and his schemes. Perhaps we could start, oh I don't know, looking for wolves? Just a wild notion that suddenly occurred to me.

[Mithalwen]

It is a wild scheme, butit might just work!!! To be fair TP has been doing most of the talking 25% of all posts... so it will be lots of him.. :rolleyes: I suppose it will go crazy around the deadline again... I shoudl away for a bit .... but I won't be too long

[the phantom]

Perhaps we could start, oh I don't know, looking for wolves?
But there are no wolves- just dwarves. ;)

Anyway.... I have to go now, and I doubt I'll be back today, i.e. this is a golden opportunity for Phantom-haters to lynch me. You can attack me for being annoying (true) and wasting the day (not entirely fair, but believable), or if you're particularly nasty you can try and convince people that I am in fact the KD and have been inviting people to kill me all along (which is entirely false, but if you're very clever and devious you may be able to pull it off).

Anyway, I shall vote for Pitch, Eruhen, or Gal55.

*flips coin*

Heads, so... Crap, this coin isn't three sided. So umm....

You must be lynched-

++Pitch

(That was just for you, Sally. :D You may have to explain the joke to the uncultured masses. :p)

[Mithalwen]

We don't hate you necessarily dear..... maybe just getting wise..

[satansaloser2005]

We have to lynch....Pitch?

That's my boy. :Merisu:

Today's going to be mad busy, so I'll only say that I don't like Phantom's plan (I'd like to offer my own opinion on the KD later on if I have the chance) and I think some of the things Galadriel's said could easily be forging, but I'd need to look closer before I made any decisions.

I'll be back later, likely to vote.

[Nerwen]

Anyway.... I have to go now, and I doubt I'll be back today, i.e. this is a golden opportunity for Phantom-haters to lynch me. You can attack me for being annoying (true) and wasting the day (not entirely fair, but believable), or if you're particularly nasty you can try and convince people that I am in fact the KD and have been inviting people to kill me all along (which is entirely false, but if you're very clever and devious you may be able to pull it off).
Ah, reverse psychology! Clearly, this is exactly what he wants!:smokin:

[Rikae]

Wow, I actually like phantom's plan for once. He's losing his edge.

Nah, really, if there are loopholes we should exploit them - that's part of the game. I kind of doubt the KD feels/will feel likewise, but it's interesting to see the reactions: Eruhen's claim that it's no different from an ordinary day one is absurd and has a whiff of desperation about it, and I don't know what McCobbler is doing (but I know for a fact he's not the KD!)

I'm going to go refresh my memory of the rules and roles...


EDIT: Please ignore the cubbies-blah-blah stuff, I don't know where it came from and I can't get rid of it!
img, #cubbies-overlay{ -moz-transition-property: margin, box-shadow, z-index; -moz-transition-duration: 0.1s; -webkit-transition-property: margin, box-shadow, z-index; -webkit-transition-duration: 0.1s; } .cubbies-selected{ z-index: 9999; box-shadow: 3px 3px 8px -1px blue !important; cursor: pointer !important; margin: -3px 3px 3px -3px; } .cubbies-selected:active{ box-shadow: 2px 2px 5px -1px darkblue !important; margin: -1px 1px 1px -1px; } #cubbies-overlay{ position: fixed; z-index: 9999; bottom: 30px; left: 30px; box-shadow: 0 2px 3px rgba(0,0,0,0.8); border: none; } #cubbies-overlay:hover{ box-shadow: 0 2px 3px rgb(0,0,0); }

[Rikae]

Okay, no cobbler (but he'll always be McCobbler to me).

This seems to be a flaw in the plan, though:
"This player will appear to be one of the members of the Valley Forge."

Does this mean the KD isn't revealed on his death?
img, #cubbies-overlay{ -moz-transition-property: margin, box-shadow, z-index; -moz-transition-duration: 0.1s; -webkit-transition-property: margin, box-shadow, z-index; -webkit-transition-duration: 0.1s; } .cubbies-selected{ z-index: 9999; box-shadow: 3px 3px 8px -1px blue !important; cursor: pointer !important; margin: -3px 3px 3px -3px; } .cubbies-selected:active{ box-shadow: 2px 2px 5px -1px darkblue !important; margin: -1px 1px 1px -1px; } #cubbies-overlay{ position: fixed; z-index: 9999; bottom: 30px; left: 30px; box-shadow: 0 2px 3px rgba(0,0,0,0.8); border: none; } #cubbies-overlay:hover{ box-shadow: 0 2px 3px rgb(0,0,0); }

[wilwarin538]

Okee, quote from the admin thread:

Members of the Valley Forge: Their purpose is to kill the King’s Dwarf and get the number of villagers down to their own number. During the night phases, they will PM amongst themselves and before the Night deadline, they will send the moderator the name of their kill.

The members of the Forge can only kill the King’s Dwarf at night if there are two or more of them left to do so. Once the game comes down to one Forge member left and the King’s Dwarf is still alive, that final Forge member cannot kill him.

Alrighty. So by the sounds of it the Forge can't win until the KD is dead (am I understanding this correctly?), and if there is only 1 Forge member left they cannot kill the KD at Night. So by lynching the KD during the day, would we not be helping the Forge? I mean they don't want to kill him at Night, that could draw attention to themselves, so they would want us to kill him for them.

Also, the KD is helpful to the Watchdwarf, and like G55 said, the KD, SH and WD know something we don't know, for all we know it could be something super useful to the village that requires all 3 of them to be alive. The only time I condone killing someone on our side is for the Hunter, any other person on the good side shouldn't be killed on purpose, especially when they have inside info like this, can help the ranger, and need to die for the baddies to win. So basically I don't agree with Phantom's plan.

And the admin thread says there are 4 Forge members, I'm assuming that means KD + 3 baddies, and NOT KD + 4 baddies?

DL is in about 5 hours and 15 minutes, right? I'll need to vote within the next 3 hours, because of work.

x'ed with Nerwen and Rikaex2

[wilwarin538]

Okay, no cobbler (but he'll always be McCobbler to me).

This seems to be a flaw in the plan, though:
"This player will appear to be one of the members of the Valley Forge."

Does this mean the KD isn't revealed on his death?
img, #cubbies-overlay{ -moz-transition-property: margin, box-shadow, z-index; -moz-transition-duration: 0.1s; -webkit-transition-property: margin, box-shadow, z-index; -webkit-transition-duration: 0.1s; } .cubbies-selected{ z-index: 9999; box-shadow: 3px 3px 8px -1px blue !important; cursor: pointer !important; margin: -3px 3px 3px -3px; } .cubbies-selected:active{ box-shadow: 2px 2px 5px -1px darkblue !important; margin: -1px 1px 1px -1px; } #cubbies-overlay{ position: fixed; z-index: 9999; bottom: 30px; left: 30px; box-shadow: 0 2px 3px rgba(0,0,0,0.8); border: none; } #cubbies-overlay:hover{ box-shadow: 0 2px 3px rgb(0,0,0); }

I believe he is revealed, according to the latest posts by Folwren in the admin thread.

Oh, and clearly that cubbies stuff is a code to her fellow baddies, Rikae is certainly evil. :p

[Galadriel55]

TP, I think you have to highlight votes.

Why Pitch, though? He only posted, like, once.

It looks like this game is turning into a debate of whether to listen to evil genius* Phantom or to ignore his advice. I don't care what the outcome of that will be, but I want lynch wolf! XD

*Does not mean you're necessarily a wolf, but you're always evil.

[Nerwen]

It looks like this game is turning into a debate of whether to listen to evil genius* Phantom or to ignore his advice.

In other news, studies have shown a high probability that the sun rises in the East!

I know, I know, this is your very first Day One with phantom, isn't it?

[Galadriel55]

Alrighty. So by the sounds of it the Forge can't win until the KD is dead (am I understanding this correctly?), and if there is only 1 Forge member left they cannot kill the KD at Night. So by lynching the KD during the day, would we not be helping the Forge? I mean they don't want to kill him at Night, that could draw attention to themselves, so they would want us to kill him for them.

That's a good point. There's a loophole in the loophole plan. :p It could just work out perfectly, with us lynching the KD now and him giving us the names of the Forgers, but what if he doesn't give us the names, for whatever reason? Or we misinterpret his clues? Then the Forgers have nothing to fear from inside. And then, we might as well be lynching ordos Day by Day looking for the KD instead of eliminating the Forge.

Edit: xed with Nerwen. Yeah, my first time playing with him. Though I kept half an eye on Sally's game where he also tried to get the village to follow some plan.

[Inziladun]

Anyway, I shall vote for Pitch, Eruhen, or Gal55.

*flips coin*

Heads, so... Crap, this coin isn't three sided. So umm....

You must be lynched-

++Pitch

(That was just for you, Sally. :D You may have to explain the joke to the uncultured masses. :p)

But will Sally explain why you went for Pitch? :rolleyes:

Anyway, you forgot to do a small thing with your vote, so it may not count anyway.

[Folwren]

I saw that you wanted a mod-input on the subject of killing the KD.

The game does not automatically end if the KD is killed by either the villagers or the Forge members.

Need anything else? I can give you my opinion on TP's plot, but I won't.

Have fun.

-- Folwren

[Nerwen]

So, I was going to summarize everyone's posts, and in fact i got some way into it– but honestly, practically the entire Day is phantom talking about his Cunning Plan and other people talking about phantom and his Cunning Plan.

Of note, though–

Bom Tombadillo makes a couple of posts of banter and joke accusation (#13 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660392&postcount=13) & #16 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660397&postcount=16)). Possible "Hey, look, I'm just too silly to be a wolf?"

Boro sucks up– sorry, there's really no other way to put it– to phantom (#18 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660400&postcount=18), #38 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660422&postcount=38)). Also makes what I think is the rather odd statement that "there really can be no disastrous lynches on Day 1".

Eruhen's (#28 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660410&postcount=28), #33 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660415&postcount=33)) and Finduilas' (#39 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660424&postcount=39)) reactions to the Plan seem to have a rather hasty, nervous tone– however I think they make valid points. Finduilas also ((#39 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660424&postcount=39), #41 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660426&postcount=41)) emphasises her newbie status and unfamiliarity with the game, which can be a wolf-cub tactic– or just exactly what it looks like, a newbie unsure of the rules.

Oh, and Rikae is clearly under a mysterious curse.:eek:

EDIT:X'd with Folwren.

[Boromir88]

Edit: xed with Nerwen. Yeah, my first time playing with him. Though I kept half an eye on Sally's game where he also tried to get the village to follow some plan.

Saying the phantom wants everyone to follow one of his plans is like saying I drool uncontrollably at the sight of red hair. I mean it's like nature, everyone knows.

I have no interest in casting a vote for wilwa or Mith today, both look squeaky clean and innocent.

Moderately tempted to vote phantom, because he's all but taunting us to do it. But being Day 1, there's probably a better chance Glirdan gets lynched for absolutely no reason than the phantom being lynched for scheming.

[Boromir88]

Boro sucks up– sorry, there's really no other way to put it– to phantom (#18 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660400&postcount=18), #38 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660422&postcount=38). Also makes what I think is the rather odd statement that "there really can be no disastrous lynches on Day 1".


I could have added eye rolls to show those posts were filled to the brim with sarcasm, but if phantom (or anyone else) interprets as sucking up, that's fairy nuff.

I just mean in comparison it's not like a completely random Day 1 lynch can lose the game for us, like the times the seer gets lynched on Day 1. Still don't want to lynch helpful gifted, but I'm going to be less cautious with my Day 1 vote than normal.

And wilwa's been more convincing than the phantom, so bye bye to that plan tp. (I guess this means I'm sucking up to wilwa now?)

[Galadriel55]

Nice summary!

Also makes what I think is the rather odd statement that "there really can be no disastrous lynches on Day 1".

Out of context, that quote is quite suspicious. But when I read the paragraph, I got the point - usally D1 is a fiasco, often with a lynched Seer. This game, there is no Seer. The worst case is a lynched ordo.

But to think about that... There's also the WD. We don't want to lynch him.

Would that quote then be an attempt to say "hey villagers, it's ok if you lynch anybody - we don't care - as long as it's not me or my packmates"? Probably not.

Moderately tempted to vote phantom, because he's all but taunting us to do it. But being Day 1, there's probably a better chance Glirdan gets lynched for absolutely no reason than the phantom being lynched for scheming.

NO LYNCH GLIRDY! Come on, he didn't even say a word! And he's in my city now (or was in my city some hours ago, I don't know), so NO LYNCH GLIRDY!!!

TP, on the other hand...

;)

No, really. I'm not sure if I want to lynch phantom, but it will sure save me headaches later on. :p

Edit: xed with Boro

[Eruhen]

I didn't think it's possible, but this Day 1 has been even weirder and wackier than usual.

I honestly have no idea who I'm going to vote for, but it definitely won't be Phantom, mainly because he's all but taunting us into lynching him. Plus, though I've never played WW with him before, his posting style is just like what I remember from several years ago, and I assume there is a method (or at least a Methodist) to his madness.

Probably going to vote for a sub, though not Glirdan, since he hasn't had a chance to do anything today, being in transit all day.

[Eruhen]

Also, Sally, care to explain Phantom's vote for Pitch? I'm obviously not cool enough to know what he's talking about.

[Bom Tombadillo]

I'm torn between keeping phantom around to admire his brilliance (before killing him for being an eeevil li'l schemer) and just plain killing him to, as G55 says, save us some headaches.

Also, phantom's fixation on killing the KD this early seems like a Forger trying to get an obstacle out of the way during the day, when the Watchdwarf can't protect him.

[Boromir88]

I'm torn between keeping phantom around to admire his brilliance (before killing him for being an eeevil li'l schemer) and just plain killing him to, as G55 says, save us some headaches.

Also, phantom's fixation on killing the KD this early seems like a Forger trying to get an obstacle out of the way during the day, when the Watchdwarf can't protect him.

In both cases it sounds like you plan on dispatching him eventually, so why would you make yourself wait and go through the headaches?

[Bom Tombadillo]

Because he's amusing, of course.

Oh dear. I seem to have become part-sally.

[Pitchwife]

Sorry everybody, had no internet all day till now. Catching up.

[Galadriel55]

1.5 hour left. And there's nothing new.

Who do I want to lynch? Not wilwa. Not Glirdy (obviously). I don't have a solid opinion on most people. Nerwen is sensible and reasonable, like always. She doesn't give me evil vibes. Phantom is... well... phantom.

I'm torn between voting some submarine or tp. The problem is, almost anybody except for tp is kinda sub-ish. Including me. And it's soooooooooo tempting to lynch phantom. At least just to show him that it can be done... :p But, on the other hand, I'd hate to lose "the second most deadliest person in the village" (or whatever it was that Bom called him) if he's innocent. But I'd dance on my head if he'll be a fenris. :D

Edit: 1 hour 13 minutes now.

[Galadriel55]

This looks like it's going to be very last-minute...

[Bom Tombadillo]

Wait, is DL really that early? I thought it was an hour later than that (4:00 my time).

[Boromir88]

Edit: 1 hour 13 minutes now.

2 more hours til DL (5 pm EST - 9 PM Downsian time (which I think is GMT)).

It was extended an hour, at I believe sally's request.

[Galadriel55]

Wait, is DL really that early? I thought it was an hour later than that (4:00 my time).

*headdesk* You're right! It's still 2 hours to DL. I thought it was just one. I got that 4:00 EST into my head, but it's 5:00 EST. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry.

Edit: xed with Boro

[Inziladun]

++G55 for trying to cause a panic. :p

[Boromir88]

Add G55 to the list of ones I have no interest in voting for today.

In my head, Eruhen is wrestling Pitch for the Mr. Agreeable title. So they're on my vote list along with phantom and Bom.

Hopefully Inzil, sally, and Finduilas show up some more later, as they are appearing on neither list.

[Pitchwife]

I can empathize with people being exasperated with tp, but even if I'm not 100 % sold on his plan, I have an idea why he's doing what he's doing, and I'm for now inclined to think his reasons are innocent; so I won't be voting him toDay. (As to his vote for me, I take that as a placeholder; we have retractables, remember?)

Why I'm not sold on his plan yet: OK, the hints the KD can give to the NWD will be sketchy, but if nothing else, he can get himself (and thus indirectly the Sweetheart) protected at least twice, forcing the Forgers to pick another victim, and thus slightly increasing the chance that they hit the Sweetheart directly, giving him a revenge kill. In this case, he'll die as well, but we'll be spared wasting a lynch on him and can concentrate on lynching the Forgers. Also, there's these secrets about the KD and Sweetheart that Foley's been talking about and which could be for our benefit (as wilwa and G55 have pointed out).

tp's plan, on the other hand, has the charm of being straight and simple and avoiding the chances of multiple/revenge kills backfiring. Still, I'd prefer to lynch a Forger toDay if we can and give the Sweetheart at least one Night to find the KD.

Oh and Mith, not that Jon Snow. This one (http://aquimepuedeleer.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/wp_jon_snow_col.jpg).
(Btw, ever wondered why the trilogy format is so popular in fantasy? Yes, Tolkien, I know, but there's four winds, four seasons, Four Branches of the Mabinogi...)

[Inziladun]

This could be interesting.

Well, should we each give a list of three people we randomly suspect?

In which case I'll go with Rikae, Glirdy, and Pitchwife.

Anyway, I shall vote for Pitch, Eruhen, or Gal55.

*flips coin*

Heads, so... Crap, this coin isn't three sided. So umm....

You must be lynched-

++Pitch

So tp happened to vote for someone suspected (for no reason) by Cabbie. What to make of that?

x/d with Pitch

[Boromir88]

I can empathize with people being exasperated with tp, but even if I'm not 100 % sold on his plan, I have an idea why he's doing what he's doing, and I'm for now inclined to think his reasons are innocent; so I won't be voting him toDay. (As to his vote for me, I take that as a placeholder; we have retractables, remember?)


Possibly, but they have to be highlighted anyway, so the vote is void and phantom can be such a stickler for reading rules, he's making a few errors so far.

I've realized I'm missing the Premier League game I had wanted to watch, and while it should end before the DL, I don't want to deal with a frantic mess of mass cross-voting at the end.

Add sally to the vote list, because that's the easiest way for me to figure out her guilt or innocence, and so is doing this.

++sally

I may be back yet.

[Bom Tombadillo]

I suspect you know exactly what to make of it, and don't want to state it too openly. Why? Who knows? But I shall be watching you as well as phantom.

EDIT: X'd with Boro.

[Inziladun]

I suspect you know exactly what to make of it, and don't want to state it too openly. Why? Who knows? But I shall be watching you as well as phantom.

I may have an idea, but do I know? I do not. I don't see how anyone but phantom could "know" what he's up to.

[Galadriel55]

Interesting find, Zil. But it could just be a coincidence. Like, if tp makes my head hurt and your head hurt, and we both vote him for that reason - does that make us wolves? :p

[Eruhen]

I may have an idea, but do I know? I do not. I don't see how anyone but phantom could "know" what he's up to.

Sometimes, I don't think even he knows...

In all seriousness, though, I'm really starting to think phantom's plan isn't all that and a bag of crisps, mainly because of something Wilwa managed to put into words but had been percolating inside my skull:

So by the sounds of it the Forge can't win until the KD is dead (am I understanding this correctly?), and if there is only 1 Forge member left they cannot kill the KD at Night. So by lynching the KD during the day, would we not be helping the Forge? I mean they don't want to kill him at Night, that could draw attention to themselves, so they would want us to kill him for them.

Plus, there's the definite downside of getting the KD before he has a chance to hint to anyone who he thinks the Forgers might be going after.

Alsø alsø wik, the longer the KD has to give hints to the NWD, the better idea the NWD has of who's in the Forge and who isn't. The Forgers obviously aren't going to attack their own, so whatever names the KD gives to the NWD are known innocents. So, between the two of them, the KD and NWD work as a pseudo-Seer. Benefit to keeping both of them around as long as possible.

Edit: x-ed with G55

[Inziladun]

The fact that the votes are retractable does add a wrinkle to how we could perceive them thus far.

In that spirit:

++phantom

I've never voted for him on Day 1, and there's a first time for everything. Also, I don't really have much on anyone else at the moment. I could change this if something else catches my eye in the meantime.

[Galadriel55]

Sally didn't say much. No opinion.
Inzil said more, but no impression on him registered in my head. For now, he makes some sense to me, so I'll save my suspicions for other people.
Nerwen made some good points, but she always does that.
Boro ... same as Zil, pretty much
Galadriel is a known innocent... Wait, that's me? Can't I give an opinion about myself? :p
Eruhen is against tp's plan. So are many others. No opinon.
Bom made some really odd statements, but... doesn't he always...:rolleyes:
Glirdan is innocent until D2. After that, he might not be.
Finduilas "played the newbie", but it doesn't mean anything role-wise.
Rikae really liked tp's plan. That's all she said all Day. So: no impression.
McCaber=?
Wilwa is not someone I would vote for. She gives me innocent vibes.
Pitchwife looks innocent so far. I don't get tp's vote for him. They just disagreed, and then tp votes for Pitch.
the Phantom is too busy demonstrating his brilliance to look for wolves. Seriously, our goal is to get wolves, not the KD! Although the latter might give us clues to the former's identities, our ultimate goal is to lynch wolves!
Mithalwen said nothing evil, but somehow her posts make me wary (although one made me happy :-))


So what do I have? A couple people that look innocentish, and the rest as questionmarks. :rolleyes:

Seeing as votes are retrackable,

++TP

Wolf or not, life is just so much easier without all that scheming.

Edit: xed with Zil. Seems that tp is more (un)popular than he thinks! :P

[Mithalwen]

Oh and Mith, not that Jon Snow. This one (http://aquimepuedeleer.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/wp_jon_snow_col.jpg).
(Btw, ever wondered why the trilogy format is so popular in fantasy? Yes, Tolkien, I know, but there's four winds, four seasons, Four Branches of the Mabinogi...)

LOTR aint a trilogy it is a classic triple decker..... but some random bloke with a woluf means nothing to me... oh Vienna... Anyway I don't like Phantom's idea on so many levels. Apart from feeling that it isn't sporting as when Somerset declared in a limited overs game in order to win the overall title (sorry I know it is only Nerwen for whom cricket is a culturally appropriate reference and she prolly wasn't born at the time) I really think Foley doesn't deserve people playing silly beggars with her game. She may have more generosity of spirit than I with regard to player taking the law into her own hands but she has already had to defer and alter deadlines and the like and it just isn't fair. I have to admit I am only playing because I regarded myself as committed before I became definitively disenchanted with werewolf but since I am playing I will play and not seek some quick get out on a technicality. Anyway now to find someone to vote for.

[Galadriel55]

O wow! Look at that!

Interesting find, Zil. But it could just be a coincidence. Like, if tp makes my head hurt and your head hurt, and we both vote him for that reason - does that make us wolves? :p

So are we packmates, Zil? ;)

[Bom Tombadillo]

Tee hee. I suppose I'll be waiting until the last minute to vote . . . well, maybe not.

++TP

[Galadriel55]

Half an hour left, people. Really.

And our votes?

TP-->Pitch (will it be counted?)
Boro-->Sally
Zil-->tp
G55-->tp (2)
Bom-->tp (3)

Edit: xed with Bom

[Pitchwife]

I suspect you know exactly what to make of it, and don't want to state it too openly. Why? Who knows? But I shall be watching you as well as phantom.

EDIT: X'd with Boro.
This sounds like the same might actually go for you. Take care not to paint tp too black, or you might get some soot on your own nose. If you haven't already, that is.

Other thing I find interesting is how G55 seems all fine and dandy with tp's plan but grasps for every argument that can be used against it. Very nicely done. You'll do very well at the smithy. (Yeah, I know I've been rather wishy-washy about it myself. So lynch me.:p)

Eruhen has just made a very good point which has moved him(?) from Iron to Mithril on my personal colour scale. As for the rest:

White-hot
None, at this point

Mithril
sally
wilwa
tp
McCaber

Iron
Boro
Zil
Finduilas
Mith

Cloudy Glass (i.e. nothing to see)
Glirdan

Slate
Nerwen

Box-Shadow Darkblue !Important
Rikae

And to get things rolling,
++Bom

[Galadriel55]

Tee hee. I suppose I'll be waiting until the last minute to vote . . . well, maybe not.

I thought you wanted to keep him alive?

TP is sure becoming popular as a place-holder vote. Well, he's the only one that really talked toDay... For now, I don't have a good opinion on anyone else...

Edit: xed with Pitchie

[Mithalwen]

Don't like phantom's plan but don't like facile bandwaggon's either

This is pure hunch based on various things ..the invitation to reveal, the jump on the bandwaggon... just giving the impression of fangs and fur

++BomTombadillo

Don't like TP's plan but at moment feel it is him being clever clever rather than evil. Inclined ot keep him atm and may well do what is necessary.

Far to keen for early doors - don't pander to him.

[Bom Tombadillo]

Well, we'll see how this turns out. I do believe we'll find a good chunk of the truth this lynch.

[Galadriel55]

Vote count

TP-->Pitch (will it be counted?)
Boro-->Sally
Zil-->tp
G55-->tp (2)
Bom-->tp (3)
Pitch-->Bom
Mith-->Bom (2)

[Finduilas]

:D Sorry for "playing the newbie" folks. I really have had more to say, I'm just keep writing it and not posting it until it is obsolete. That being said, I have 8 minutes till deadline, and guests in the living room... meaning, I don't have time to write another posts in argument. :)

++ Inziladun

Edit: thanks muchly Boro.

[Boromir88]

Eruhen has just made a very good point which has moved him(?) from Iron to Mithril on my personal colour scale. As for the rest:

Agreed about Eruhen's point.

Edit: crossed with Finduilas. Highlight your vote...[ HIGHLIGHT] [ /HIGHLIGHT] (without the spaces)

[Eruhen]

Well, I'm willing to keep phantom around for another Day, even if just to see what new schemes he comes up with toMorrow. I still think he's playing a game of Silly Beggars instead of WW, but we'll see what happens.

But, going on pure instinct here...

++Bom

[Pitchwife]

Boro, Zil, would either of you be inclined to retract? Preferably both?

[Galadriel55]

Boro, Zil, would either of you be inclined to retract? Preferably both?

Why? I understand about Boro, but why Zil? Because he voted tp? I just don't get it.

Finduilas, you need to highlight your vote.

Edit: like this: [ highlight] ... [ /highlight] but without spaces

[Boromir88]

Boro, Zil, would either of you be inclined to retract? Preferably both?

Yes, actually. Nothing more I dislike than a Day 1 throw away vote. It would mean I'd have to wait a day to see sally's reaction, but I'd have to wait regardless.

[Inziladun]

:D Sorry for "playing the newbie" folks. I really have had more to say, I'm just keep writing it and not posting it until it is obsolete. That being said, I have 8 minutes till deadline, and guests in the living room... meaning, I don't have time to write another posts in argument. :)

++ Inziladun

Oh, for goodness sakes, how do you highlight text? :mad: Whatever. Foley can count my vote or not, as she wishes.

[ highlight ]text[ /highlight ] without the spaces.

Boro, Zil, would either of you be inclined to retract? Preferably both?

I might. Why do you ask?

x/d with G55 and Boro

[Bom Tombadillo]

Ah, last minute chaos. Much more fun online than in real life.

EDIT: X'd with Inziladun. Yeah, this is going to hurt.

[Pitchwife]

Because I wouldn't like to see tp lynched toDay? Is that good enough?

[Inziladun]

Ok. It's interesting to see who pounced on tp after my vote. I'll feel like Bill the Pony if tp turns out to be a baddie, but:

--phantom

++Bom

Because G55 looks less suspicious.

[wilwarin538]

sorry, I'll explain absence on admin:

++Bom

, vote for him uz I don't want tp gone yet, his suggestion wasn't necessarily evil.

[Folwren]

Deadline. Stop posting. Narration will come in time...probably an hour or so, because I'm not home yet and am just passing through a place that happens to have a computer and internet access. Yay!

-- Folwren

[Boromir88]

Because I wouldn't like to see tp lynched toDay? Is that good enough?

You feel that good about him 'eh?

All his plan business, I highly doubt he was being serious with doing it, because of how ridiculous it would be to try. It was more likely fodder to be served as discussion. The question is whether it's a red herring to use later (ie he's a snickering Forge members) or if he was trying on of his infamous trap ploys.

--sally

++Bom

[Galadriel55]

Because I wouldn't like to see tp lynched toDay? Is that good enough?

Other people voted TP as well...

Yes, actually. Nothing more I dislike than a Day 1 throw away vote. It would mean I'd have to wait a day to see sally's reaction, but I'd have to wait regardless.

Who will the unlucky person be?

The Bom wagon looks weird to me. He made some odd comments, but he always says weird things. It's the norm for him. I don't get the sudden-just-before-DL "let's lynch him"-ness.

Edit: xed with Boro and Foley. It's still :59 on my clock. :confused:

[Folwren]

The day was filled with fierce argument amongst the villagers. The members of the Forge mingled amongst them, offering their opinions beside those of their innocent victims. One dwarf was very vocal, his shouting rising above the general discourse of the others.

“Ever since the King has sent his dwarves back here to try to solve our problems for us, the Forge has merely become more violent. Folwren was killed because she aided the King’s messenger! What more will happen if we keep him in our midst? Kill him now!”

“How could you offer to kill someone sent to help us?”

“Help us?” the loud dwarf said. “Help us! He hasn’t helped us! Perhaps he could help us if we could force the names of the members of the Forge out of him before we stretched his filthy neck!”

The crowd about him surged in anger, some agreeing with his words, others fiercely arguing for the opposite. Galin Ironfist laughed inside. If they wished to kill him, they would have to discover his identity first, and even the Forge members had not been able to find that out before letting him join them. He bid his time, and waited.

“That’s a marvelous good idea, my dear fellow,” said one dwarf. He ambled up and amiably clapped the loud dwarf on the shoulder. “While we’re asking everyone if they’re the King’s Dwarf, why don’t we ask if they're the Forge members, too? Perhaps they’ll just up and say who they are! Make our job a great deal easier.”

“I don’t like your tone, fellow,” a dwarf at his elbow said. “What’s your name, and are you a member of the Forge?”

“I’m called Bom. Of course I’m not. I was just saying it’d make it easier.”

“You talk too much.”

Bom looked from the dwarf to the others standing about. Their eyes were fixed on him. “Hey, now, it’s all in jest, right? You don’t really think I’m serious…I wasn’t really expecting…”

“We’re tired of jesting. This isn’t a jesting business! We’re being killed one by one! If you can take others’ deaths lightly, perhaps you can laugh at your own!”

An approving murmur ran through the crowd, and the murmur grew to a great grumbling growl. The dwarves reached out and took hold of Bom, dragging him down from where he stood by the loud dwarf, and taking him to the center of the village. They were a blood thirsty and frightened group and no one was there that knew better or who could hold them back. The members of the Forge stayed quiet, and Galin Ironfist remained silent, too, for this was the beginning of his victory.

Someone produced an axe – no one knew who’s it was – and handed it to another. Several dwarves overpowered Bom and tied him, hand and foot. He kicked and thrashed about until the dwarf with the axe stood by his head, then he laid still, his eyes gleaming.

“You’ll be sorry. Every last one of you will be sorry!”

The axe lifted high in the air and descended swiftly. A skilled and clean stroke, and Bom’s head rolled off into the ditch.

The crowd was silenced with the stroke. They looked at the body. The sun dipped behind the mountain’s shoulder and a shadow fell across the square. A cold wind blew silently up the street and the people shivered and turned away, their blood lust sated for the day and dread of the night beginning to set in.

Galin alone stood waiting until the street was clear. Then he approached and took the head by the beard and laid it by the body. He drew his dagger and cut away the cloth of Bom’s shirt by his shoulder and pulled it back, revealing the brand of the Valley Forge.


Alive
Sally
Inzil
Nerwen
Boro
Galadriel
Eruhen
Glirdan
Finduilas
Rikae
McCaber
Wilwarin
Pitchwife
the Phantom
Mithalwen

Dead
Folwren - Moddess
Bom - Member of the Valley Forge

[Folwren]

Night Two

Find someone who can help you. Someone who you can trust and send ahead to warn people. That had been the advice given to him, and now was the time to take action on it. As darkness fell, before he was required to be at the forge to meet about what to do, he waited and watched, hoping to find the one who could help him. But who could it possibly be? Most of the dwarves slunk off to their homes, bolting their doors behind them, as though that could keep them safe.

Then he saw the one. A dark, hooded figure standing in the shadow of an alley. He glanced up and down the street and then ran across, coming up behind the hood stranger silently.

“Friend, can you help me?”

The dwarf whipped about, and Galin turned his face away. “No, do not try to see me. It is better if you do not know me. But listen, I will bring word each night about this time of whom the Forge may seek to kill. I cannot promise that I will know, but it will be my best guess.”

“Why should your guess be any better than anyone else’s of who the Forge will kill?” the dwarf asked.

“Because I am one of them, but I am also the king’s messenger. So, hark, this night protect with your life. . .” and he whispered a name so low the other could scarcely hear. But he did hear, and he nodded.

“Good luck, friend,” Galin said, and turned away.

The debate at the forge was hot that night. They were angry and distraught, frightened at what Bom’s death foretold them. They knew they had to strike back, hard and swift, and sure, but how? The decision was not quite made and dawn was coming swiftly. “The first one we come to,” they decided. “Quickly now, we must be ready to face them come day break.”

They leaped up, loosed their daggers in their sheaths as they went and exited into the cold open air.

They almost immediately caught sight of the same hooded dwarf Galin had spoken to. Galin recognized the dwarf at once, and he stopped dead in his tracks, struck dumb with horror as his campanions hurried on, locked into their kill.

It was over quickly, and the body was left in the street. When the first dwarvish citizen dared to open his door and peek his beard out, he found the cloaked body of one of their women. He drew back the hood.

It was Wilwarin.

Alive
Sally
Inzil
Nerwen
Boro
Galadriel
Eruhen
Glirdan
Finduilas
Rikae
McCaber
Pitchwife
the Phantom
Mithalwen

Dead
Folwren - Moddess
Bom - Member of the Valley Forge
Wilwa - Night Watchdwarf

[Inziladun]

Well, they got their revenge for yesterDay. :(

More immediately, can anything be learned from Bom's comments and interactions?

[Pitchwife]

Well, they got their revenge for yesterDay. :(
Yep. Dang.
More immediately, can anything be learned from Bom's comments and interactions?
Other than that he was eager to be rid of tp, he seemed to suspect you and McCaber to be in some kind of collusion IIRC (possibly together with tp). But I'll go back and look if there's more.

Speaking of McCaber - Rikae, please enlighten me:
and I don't know what McCobbler is doing (but I know for a fact he's not the KD!)

How can you know that "for a fact", unless you're a member of the Forge and he is not?

[Mithalwen]

Hi I am around ... inspired with a rare "catch" I have been doing some note taking... nearly done will be back soon with conclusions.

[Rikae]

Speaking of McCaber - Rikae, please enlighten me:

How can you know that "for a fact", unless you're a member of the Forge and he is not?

Um, because I'm one of the three people he named? :rolleyes:
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[the phantom]

I'll be leaving shortly, but I'll return after 2-3 hours and be around the rest of the day. (Sorry for not being around yesterday. No choice.)

Anyway, I'm definitely not caught up on the specifics of yesterday, but in my quick skim it looked like Sally never explained my vote, so here's the explanation-

Watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EirZRVnQFQ)

It's a running gag with Sally, Fea, and a couple others to imitate Spike in their Facebook posts and such, saying four words and adding the insult to the end.

While I was visiting Sally a short while ago she did it to me (several times), and suddenly I was struck with the idea to use the joke on the Downs only with Pitch inserted in place of the word that the mods here probably don't want me using as a way to label another member.

The original plan was to say- "You are a Wolf- Pitch", but it didn't fit in these circumstances (there being no wolves in this village), so I changed it to "You must be lynched- Pitch".

Probably not the least bit amusing to non-Buffy fans, but I know at least two people found it extremely funny. :D

[Pitchwife]

Um, because I'm one of the three people he named? :rolleyes:

"And I know of course I'm innocent (although I obviously can't prove it), so if he suspects me, he can't know my role"?

[Mithalwen]

Hmm I think Wilwa was a lucky strike on balance. From my notes she posted little and mainly discussed the game set up rather than individuals.Though her vote was on the money her reasons were more save Phantom than kill Bom.though she did remind us of the special instructions but was that enought to say "Lynch me I'm gifted" to the forge - it seems not to have alerted the KD unless Wilwa went her own way.

[Galadriel55]

Well, they got their revenge for yesterDay. :(

Sure did. :( And Wilwa hardly said anything at all!

I can't stay for long or go searching for interactions and etc, but from toDay's posts, Pitchie's case against Rikae feels a bit... fabricated. I'll be back later with my thoughts in full...

Edit: xed with Mith

[McCaber]

So, yesterDay I forgot it ended at 4 instead of 5. This means that with work I'm going to need to vote quite early, and that I missed the previous vote by like 15 minutes.

So, phantom's plan got discarded early? Makes sense. I thought it was a bit too good to be true. Fortunately, it seems we hit on a Forger anyway.

I'll take a look at posts by and about the lateBomand see if anything trips my radar.

[Rikae]

"And I know of course I'm innocent (although I obviously can't prove it), so if he suspects me, he can't know my role"?

Well, duh. I didn't say "I can prove he isn't"... I can by dying, of course, and it will give me more time for WoW, too. ;)
Actually I can't even say "I know he isn't" since I suppose it is possible the KD could deliberately try to lead the village astray, but I don't consider that too terribly likely (although on second thought it could help win the trust of his fellow wolves and keep him alive longer, too).

Anyway - I'm terribly sorry I didn't vote or participate much yesterDay - I hadn't checked when the DL was and was distracted by RL - but I'll try to do better from here on. I do think we can learn something from Bom's posts. Can we be sure he wasn't the KD? I don't think our moddess ever answered the question about the KD's role being revealed, right? That wouldput Phantom and Cabbie in a bad light (fake KD bluff attempt?) and whoever went after Bom, while a truly evil Bom would do the opposite.
I'd love to know for sure, well, how much we know. Moddess?
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[Pitchwife]

I'll skip the "Weredwarves reveal", my teasing him about it and his reply to me; they're all on page 1, easy enough to find.

"Alas," you say? A wolf desperately trying to kill the second-deadliest member of the village day 1? Not unlikely, I think. :D

"you" is here Boro; flattering tp and casting some shadow on Boro at the same time.

I'm torn between keeping phantom around to admire his brilliance (before killing him for being an eeevil li'l schemer) and just plain killing him to, as G55 says, save us some headaches.

Also, phantom's fixation on killing the KD this early seems like a Forger trying to get an obstacle out of the way during the day, when the Watchdwarf can't protect him.
This, apparently, is where he changed his mind about tp and decided to go after him. Also, note the agreement with G55 - not the last time we see them paired.

I suspect you know exactly what to make of it, and don't want to state it too openly. Why? Who knows? But I shall be watching you as well as phantom.

In answer to this:
So tp happened to vote for someone suspected (for no reason) by Cabbie. What to make of that?
Suggesting tp, McCaber and Zil to be in collusion, but still mostly fixated on tp.

Tee hee. I suppose I'll be waiting until the last minute to vote . . . well, maybe not.

++TP
Votes tp. Again, following a lead from G55 (and Zil, who however retracted later from tp to Bom).

So far, merely from this, I'd say tp, Boro, Zil and McCaber are unlikely to be Bom's companions in Forgery. G55, on the other hand, could well be one.

The votes for Bom:
Pitch
Mith (2)
Eruhen (3)
Zil (4, retracting from tp)
wilwa (5)
Boro (6, retracting from sally; x-ed with DL, although it was still :59 on the BD clock)

wilwa of course is now a known innocent (and paid with her life for the vote). Mith and Eruhen look pretty good to me for adding wheels to the wagon. Zil and Boro see above.

G55, on the other hand, made an honourable last minute attempt to dissuade people from the Bomwagon. Again, possible packmate.

Which reminds me -
Other people voted TP as well...

...so why didn't I ask you to retract, is that what you meant? Maybe I had a hunch that you wouldn't be likely to oblige; or if you did retract, you wouldn't use your vote in a way I would have liked.
Not that you couldn't have done it unasked anyway, you know...

[McCaber]

Boms first posts here were just chatter, asking the Forge to step forward and make their identity known. And it was reacted to as such.

Next is this:
I'm torn between keeping phantom around to admire his brilliance (before killing him for being an eeevil li'l schemer) and just plain killing him to, as G55 says, save us some headaches.

Also, phantom's fixation on killing the KD this early seems like a Forger trying to get an obstacle out of the way during the day, when the Watchdwarf can't protect him.
which seems an awful like just badmouthing tp, or (if tp is indeed a Forge-ite) it could be an attempt to create an appearance of division between them. I'm leaning heavily towards the first right now.

He leans on Inzil a bit for not catching an inside joke, and gets a verbal smack back for it.

He votes phantom, hopping on a barrelling bandwagon against him. I'd say this looks like more evidence for phantom's innocence.

And Inzil and Eruhen voting him at the last moment also speaks volumes towards innocence in both of them, as his lynch was by no means set in stone.

[Rikae]

I didn't think Bom got the inside joke, though, Cab - he seemed to read something else into it (or want others to, anyway).
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[Mithalwen]

So, phantom's plan got discarded early? Makes sense. I thought it was a bit too good to be true. Fortunately, it seems we hit on a Forger anyway.

.

So in ch that case why did you jump straight in to complying with it?

I have notes on everyone and at the moment Pitchwife looks pretty innocent to me. He picked up on Bom early and so his vote was consistent, Discussed the situation and TP's plan and was calm in the face of TP's fairly bizarre vote. Also in no hurry to dispose of the only other player in a close timezone...

Galadriel worries me a lot. I may be a poor judge because she was my abandoned cub the one and only time I have played with her but I have filled twice as much paper on her but it is a bit careful. Not much original - she agrees with Nerwen a bit, says Boro's predicitions is coming true. She does pick up on Eruhen's odd "nothing to add" in the face of TP's plan and points out that the plan is a de facto reveal - but seems to be looking for a way round it. On the less original side there are vote counts within 4 posts of each other, a list that draws no real conclusions - Wilwa and Pitch seem more innocent. Sort of stuff that makes a player look diligent but doesn't actually commit them - and all the misguided panic over the deadline- taking up Nogrod's cyber sheepdog role. Then the last minute attack on the bandwaggon.. just seemed it might be a fausse-naive bluff....

[Pitchwife]

Pitchie's case against Rikae feels a bit... fabricated.
That's not a case (yet), it's a question. And perhaps a test.

Well, duh. I didn't say "I can prove he isn't"... I can by dying, of course, and it will give me more time for WoW, too. ;)
Actually I can't even say "I know he isn't" since I suppose it is possible the KD could deliberately try to lead the village astray, but I don't consider that too terribly likely (although on second thought it could help win the trust of his fellow wolves and keep him alive longer, too).
Exactly. Not that I consider it terribly likely either, but I'm glad you got my point.

I do think we can learn something from Bom's posts. Can we be sure he wasn't the KD? I don't think our moddess ever answered the question about the KD's role being revealed, right? That wouldput Phantom and Cabbie in a bad light (fake KD bluff attempt?) and whoever went after Bom, while a truly evil Bom would do the opposite.
I'd love to know for sure, well, how much we know. Moddess?
:D

Foley's last word on the Admin thread was we'd know when the KD died. If she's changed her mind about that, it would be fair to let everybody know.

And about Bom-as-KD specifically: I know it's considered bad form to try and draw conclusions from the narration, but -
The dwarves reached out and took hold of Bom, dragging him down from where he stood by the loud dwarf, and taking him to the center of the village. They were a blood thirsty and frightened group and no one was there that knew better or who could hold them back. The members of the Forge stayed quiet, and Galin Ironfist remained silent, too, for this was the beginning of his victory.
[...]
Galin alone stood waiting until the street was clear. Then he approached and took the head by the beard and laid it by the body. He drew his dagger and cut away the cloth of Bom’s shirt by his shoulder and pulled it back, revealing the brand of the Valley Forge.
I like to think such a diligent writer as our Moddess would have phrased this differently if Bom himself had been the KD.

But supposing for the sake of argument he was, did he leave any hints about his role?

EDIT: x-ed with Mith, whose cyber sheepdog Nogrod totally cracked me up. I love you!:D

[the phantom]

About to head out again, but first I'll post some thoughts of my Day 1 skim...

First- wow! I was really close to dying, ha ha! :D Had I realized what was going on here my drive home would've been much more anxious.

Anyway-

Just as a point of interest, Bom, Gal55, Eruhen, Inzil, and Nerwen seem to think of the baddies as Werewolves (judging from their wording here and there) even though the baddies in this village are not Werewolves.

Others, such as Finduilas, Boro, and I, seem to make a point of calling the baddies what they are- Forge members or bad dwarves etc.

I have no idea if that means anything at all. I thought it was possible that people that had spent a good deal of time with the rules and thinking about things would naturally lean away from saying "Werewolves", and I also thought it possible that the bad dwarves would not refer to themselves as such, knowing that they weren't Wolves, you know, but Bom ruins that theory... Unless of course in their discussions they referred to themselves with classic pack terminology and it stuck in their minds and it carried over to the game thread. Who knows?
I could have added eye rolls to show those posts were filled to the brim with sarcasm, but if phantom (or anyone else) interprets as sucking up, that's fairy nuff.
Ha ha, no, I didn't think you were sucking up. Quite the opposite- I figured you were addressing me as carefully as possible according to your formulas involving me not being able to read you directly and also opening up an opportunity for you to read me etc. In a way the attitude felt copied and pasted from other Day 1s when you've spoken to me.
I'm torn between voting some submarine or tp. The problem is, almost anybody except for tp is kinda sub-ish. Including me. And it's soooooooooo tempting to lynch phantom. At least just to show him that it can be done... But, on the other hand, I'd hate to lose "the second most deadliest person in the village" (or whatever it was that Bom called him) if he's innocent. But I'd dance on my head if he'll be a fenris.
Meh, I don't like this attitude. It's the old fan the flames and make the idea sound palatable while at the same time displaying disapproval. "Look people, isn't it tempting? But actually, I'm uneasy."
Because G55 looks less suspicious.
Why did you say that after you changed your vote from me to Bom? What was the connection?
This seems to be a flaw in the plan, though:
"This player will appear to be one of the members of the Valley Forge."

Does this mean the KD isn't revealed on his death?
Can we be sure he wasn't the KD? I don't think our moddess ever answered the question about the KD's role being revealed, right?
Foley specifically said-
I think that roles will be revealed as long as the King's Dwarf is still alive.
You will definitely know when the King's Dwarf dies.
With her saying that I felt fairly secure there would be no loop-hole in my loop-hole plan.

Gotta run now, but just to give an idea of my basic feelings- I seriously doubt I'm voting for Eruhen, Rikae, Mith, Inzil, or Pitch today.

[Mithalwen]

My notes on Bom were :

Invites werewolves to reveal. Later responds to Pitch noting this but not to my more strongly worded suspicion.

I didn't get eht "alas" in p 16 couldn't see who he was quoting . Think someone mentioned Boro later - I'll go back,

Then there is the Kill TP or not TP thing, deadline query with Galadriel.. and apart from that he is so devil may care that he might as well have revealed.

[McCaber]

So in ch that case why did you jump straight in to complying with it?

Because if it WAS allowed to fly, it'd be a great way to get information out. I agreed with it, even though I didn't know if our Moddess Goddess would let it.

[Eruhen]

Well, I'm setting out on my road trip significantly later than I thought I was. Good thing, too, since I got to see all of this.

Well, certainly seems like the Forge got their revenge for our fenris. I reiterate my statement from Day 1: who asked to live in interesting times?

I don't have a lot of time to post before I head out the door, but I do want to make sure I get this in:

++G55

...for the reasons others have posted, but mainly for her last-minute defense of Bom.

If I'm able to get access later, that might change; for now, though, I'm going with her.

[Inziladun]

Just as a point of interest, Bom, Gal55, Eruhen, Inzil, and Nerwen seem to think of the baddies as Werewolves (judging from their wording here and there) even though the baddies in this village are not Werewolves.

Yes, I know we're not dealing with wolves, per se, but they act like wolves. What's the difference? If it kills like a wolf...

Because G55 looks less suspicious.

Why did you say that after you changed your vote from me to Bom? What was the connection?

The connection as that they'd both followed my vote for you. When I made it, I had every intention of checking closer to DL to see if anyone had opportunistically mimicked me. When Pitch asked if I'd retract, I did so, and went for Bom as the one whose vote I thought looked worse.

x/d with Eruhen

[Inziladun]

Let's see. I'm feeling pretty good about Eruhen, since she tied Bom with tp. Boro's vote might seem the least shiny of the Bom-voters, just because it came so late. Baddies have little to lose by putting another nail in a doomed mate's coffin, and everything to gain.

I'm curious to hear Finduilas's explanation for her vote on me. At the time, tp was in the lead with three votes, and Bom had two. Could a newbie-Innocent who was merely pressed for time not choose between one of them? Or was it a safe throwaway by a newbie wolf?

[Galadriel55]

The Day is already getting eventful! Me likes that!

I didn't think Bom got the inside joke, though, Cab - he seemed to read something else into it (or want others to, anyway).

I don't get it either. I don't even get what exactly was the joke.

Galadriel worries me a lot. I may be a poor judge because she was my abandoned cub the one and only time I have played with her but I have filled twice as much paper on her but it is a bit careful.

That made me really happy again, MommieMith. :p I can assure you that I talked just as much as an ordo in Lottie's game as I did as a wolf in Zil's game.

Then the last minute attack on the bandwaggon.. just seemed it might be a fausse-naive bluff....

.......Comming from MommieMith who doesn't really like bandwagons herself. :smokin:

I'm curious to hear Finduilas's explanation for her vote on me. At the time, tp was in the lead with three votes, and Bom had two. Could a newbie-Innocent who was merely pressed for time not choose between one of them? Or was it a safe throwaway by a newbie wolf?

Seconded. Very curious. I wouldn't put her under either category until she explains.

[Finduilas]

Hm. I'm feeling terribly out of this game, I've been too quiet. Let's see if I can fix that. :D

I'm curious to hear Finduilas's explanation for her vote on me. At the time, tp was in the lead with three votes, and Bom had two. Could a newbie-Innocent who was merely pressed for time not choose between one of them? Or was it a safe throwaway by a newbie wolf?

Zil, my vote for you was a case of... indecision (with a smidgen of time pressure too). I wanted to vote for both TP and Bom, but I dislike killing people on the first day (sorry, always have, I'll show more backbone toDay), so I voted for someone who had no votes, and who had not particularly struck me as a definite innocent. So I haven't decided on you yet, but that's why I voted for you. :) Actually, considering your retraction vote from Phantom (who'm I currently think is "innocent", though most other players seem to have termed him as evil, Forge member or not...) to Bom, I think I might trust you...

Alsø alsø wik, the longer the KD has to give hints to the NWD, the better idea the NWD has of who's in the Forge and who isn't. The Forgers obviously aren't going to attack their own, so whatever names the KD gives to the NWD are known innocents. So, between the two of them, the KD and NWD work as a pseudo-Seer. Benefit to keeping both of them around as long as possible.

I like this thinking. Pity the Watch Dwarf died...

Alright, that's all for now. I will do my utmostest to be more active tomorrow (but still toDay).

[Galadriel55]

I found something else rather curious. TP voted Pitch. Pitch voted Bom. Bom voted TP. Interesting triangle. Contradictory conclusions are the only ones that come to my mind atm, so I'll have to address this again after a night of sleep. From the first look, Pitch and Phantom come out clean and shiny from yesterDay's vote. But I won't rule out a wolf-on-wolf yet. Fine. Forger-on-Forger. But I will still call them wolves. Evil werewolf spirits remain such regardless of who they posess and what shape they take. *stares at phantom*

And since I'm here, I can also say that Pitch is acting abnormal toDay, making an elephant out of a fly with Rikae. This isn't supposed to be related to my previous statement - at least in my head, - but they both stand... I think...

That's it. Bedtime. I'm stuttering in typing.... if that made any sense..... *head drops, eyes close*

Edit: xed with Findy

[Galadriel55]

Zil, my vote for you was a case of... indecision (with a smidgen of time pressure too). I wanted to vote for both TP and Bom, but I dislike killing people on the first day (sorry, always have, I'll show more backbone toDay), so I voted for someone who had no votes, and who had not particularly struck me as a definite innocent. So I haven't decided on you yet, but that's why I voted for you. :)

Since you remind me of myself last game, where ordo!me chose to neither save or to condemn a gifted but rather to throw away my vote, I won't yell "wolf!" at that...

;)

...Phantom (who'm I currently think is "innocent", though most other players seem to have termed him as evil, Forge member or not...)

But he is! Ask anyone, and they'll tell you that he's an evil genius.

Now, bedtime. Really. Night, all!

[Nerwen]

I do think we can learn something from Bom's posts. Can we be sure he wasn't the KD? I don't think our moddess ever answered the question about the KD's role being revealed, right? That wouldput Phantom and Cabbie in a bad light (fake KD bluff attempt?) and whoever went after Bom, while a truly evil Bom would do the opposite.
I'd love to know for sure, well, how much we know. Moddess?
The narration has the "Galin Ironfist" character as still around, so I'd say not (unless that's a smokescreen, or something).

Funny thing is, Bom made some darned strange comments yesterDay, even for him– could he have been trying to pose as the KD? The obvious reason would be to throw the Sweetheart and Watchdwarf off– but would that be worth the risk of being suspected by his own packmates? Or is this just a case of Bom acting weird whatever his role?


Just as a point of interest, Bom, Gal55, Eruhen, Inzil, and Nerwen seem to think of the baddies as Werewolves (judging from their wording here and there) even though the baddies in this village are not Werewolves.

Others, such as Finduilas, Boro, and I, seem to make a point of calling the baddies what they are- Forge members or bad dwarves etc.

I have no idea if that means anything at all.
...How pedantic the player is?:p I hadn't thought about it, actually, but I suppose I've been calling them "wolves" out of a mixture of habit and convenience. I'm probably going to keep on with it too. This isn't a compulsory RP-ing game, phantom.


Let's see. I'm feeling pretty good about Eruhen, since she tied Bom with tp.
"He", not "she". Just letting you know.

[the phantom]

All righty- here's the voting from yesterday.

Phantom++Pitch
Boro++Sally
Inzil++Phantom
Gal55++Phantom (2)
Bom++Phantom (3)
Pitch++Bom
Mith++Bom (2)
Findu++Inzil
Eruhen++Bom (3)
*Inzil--Phantom (2)*
Inzil++Bom (4)
Wilwa++Bom (5)
*Boro--Sally (0)*
Boro++Bom (6)

Now, as I was driving home thinking about what to post, it hit me- I've been thinking of voting ALL WRONG! Now, I haven't had time to be terribly thorough with reading, but if I recall correctly I don't think anyone has pointed out something very very important which flies in the face of common voting logic that has been voiced thus far.

What am I getting at?

It is entirely possible that this particular group of baddies is more likely than any Werewolf pack to purposefully try and lynch one another during the day!!

Now duh, of course we knew the KD was working against them, but what about the others? All they know is that THEY are not the traitor, where as every one of their fellows is potentially a double agent.

So, without a Seer or Hunter to fear, it seems to me that the logical play would be to kill the other Forge members. And in fact accusing all three of your fellow members might be a smart play as it would make them extremely unlikely to turn against you, as they might fear that you are the KD and killing you would expose them.

But of course I just read Foley's ruling and it appears we won't be informed about the KD any more, so the position has changed somewhat. Going after all of your fellows together isn't so smart any more, but it's still perfectly acceptable to try and lynch one. And if you are questioned about it at night, the defense is "I thought he might be the KD".

So, what that means is this- people that saved an innocent Phantom by voting for a guilty Bom cannot be given the usual weight in the innocence column.

All right- what do the rest of you think? If I was a Forge member I'd probably kill all the others and win it by myself.

(edit: vote tally)

[McCaber]

Well, it looks like I'll have to vote now. I feel pretty confident, nonetheless.

++Galadriel55
for trying to stop a lynch of the Forge-ite Bom Tombadillo, and coming close to succeeding.

EDIT: crossed with tp

[McCaber]

It is entirely possible that this particular group of baddies is more likely than any Werewolf pack to purposefully try and lynch one another during the day!!

Now, I don't really know about this. It seems to me that even if there's a traitor among their ranks, every conspirator the Forge loses makes their overall victory that much harder. Every day they don't lynch an innocent is a day that slows them down. That, and Bom really didn't seem to give any suspicion of being the KD. In a touch-and-go thing like that, I think they'd want to get an innocent out of here rather than someone who *might* be working against them.

But I could just naturally be a team player, even in a hypothetical situation like that.

[Nerwen]

Now, as I was driving home thinking about what to post, it hit me- I've been thinking of voting ALL WRONG! Now, I haven't had time to be terribly thorough with reading, but if I recall correctly I don't think anyone has pointed out something very very important which flies in the face of common voting logic that has been voiced thus far.

What am I getting at?

It is entirely possible that this particular group of baddies is more likely than any Werewolf pack to purposefully try and lynch one another during the day!!

Now duh, of course we knew the KD was working against them, but what about the others? All they know is that THEY are not the traitor, where as every one of their fellows is potentially a double agent.

So, without a Seer or Hunter to fear, it seems to me that the logical play would be to kill the other Forge members. And in fact accusing all three of your fellow members might be a smart play as it would make them extremely unlikely to turn against you, as they might fear that you are the KD and killing you would expose them.

But of course I just read Foley's ruling and it appears we won't be informed about the KD any more, so the position has changed somewhat. Going after all of your fellows together isn't so smart any more, but it's still perfectly acceptable to try and lynch one. And if you are questioned about it at night, the defense is "I thought he might be the KD".

So, what that means is this- people that saved an innocent Phantom by voting for a guilty Bom cannot be given the usual weight in the innocence column.

All right- what do the rest of you think? If I was a Forge member I'd probably kill all the others and win it by myself.

Believe it or not, I was just about to make this same point– it's been a nagging back-of-the-mind thing with me for a while, but I hadn't quite got it into focus. Yes. The wolf tactics (or Forge-member tactics, if that makes you feel better) are going to be completely different from normal. Probably anyhow– you do have to bear in mind that we have a number of inexperienced players.

EDIT:X'd with McCaber.

[Nerwen]

Also, it does depend a lot on the personality of the wolves– how ruthless, how confident at being able to win alone, etc. So I wouldn't say for certain that the Forge members would go all out to kill each other, only that they might.

[Boromir88]

Boro's vote might seem the least shiny of the Bom-voters, just because it came so late. Baddies have little to lose by putting another nail in a doomed mate's coffin, and everything to gain.

The fact that it ended up last in a string of last minute votes is mis-leading. I crossed with everyone since my post responding to Pitch on whether I would be willing to retract my vote.

So, in truth, you, wilwa, and me, all voted at the same time and my vote coming at the end is coincidental since your magical internet pixies may have transferred the info a fraction sooner, or your fingers were just that much faster.

[the phantom]

I understand what you're saying, McCaber- in normal conditions I NEVER kill my packmates. It's practically my number one rule as a baddie. But in this game one of your mates is against you and so long as he is alive you're very vulnerable. The traitor can take down the entire Forge, particularly if he finds his sweetheart and the both of them are trying to lynch the same people during the day (the other people in the village would definitely catch on if KD & Sweetheart do a joint attack, and it wouldn't count as revealing either because there'd be no way for a common player to know which is which- the two of them would basically be unstoppable).

May as well try to make it alone, especially if you're someone like me that believes you will pull it off. Like I said- no Seer to be scared of, so no reason for a forceful and active player to be nervous if he thinks he can influence the vote enough to stay alive each day.

(x-post Nerwen & Boro)

[the phantom]

I would love to do a reread of yesterday with the dwarf-eat-dwarf mentality in mind, but I'm too tired. I'll be around tomorrow.

[Nerwen]

Hmm I think Wilwa was a lucky strike on balance. From my notes she posted little and mainly discussed the game set up rather than individuals.Though her vote was on the money her reasons were more save Phantom than kill Bom.though she did remind us of the special instructions but was that enought to say "Lynch me I'm gifted" to the forge - it seems not to have alerted the KD unless Wilwa went her own way.
This seems likely to me– nothing she said seems like an obvious Ranger-hint. (Ahem! I'm afraid can't help recalling here a Mithwolf some games back explaining just why the pack killed Shasta...)


Originally Posted by McCaber
So, phantom's plan got discarded early? Makes sense. I thought it was a bit too good to be true. Fortunately, it seems we hit on a Forger anyway.
So in ch that case why did you jump straight in to complying with it?
And McCaber says this in reply:
Because if it WAS allowed to fly, it'd be a great way to get information out. I agreed with it, even though I didn't know if our Moddess Goddess would let it.
Um... you know, McCaber, no offence, but I'm not sure that's even an answer. Mith asked you why you jumped straight in without knowing if the plan would be allowed, and you said, "Yes, I did."

Galadriel worries me a lot. I may be a poor judge because she was my abandoned cub the one and only time I have played with her but I have filled twice as much paper on her but it is a bit careful. Not much original - she agrees with Nerwen a bit, says Boro's predicitions is coming true. She does pick up on Eruhen's odd "nothing to add" in the face of TP's plan and points out that the plan is a de facto reveal - but seems to be looking for a way round it. On the less original side there are vote counts within 4 posts of each other, a list that draws no real conclusions - Wilwa and Pitch seem more innocent. Sort of stuff that makes a player look diligent but doesn't actually commit them - and all the misguided panic over the deadline- taking up Nogrod's cyber sheepdog role. Then the last minute attack on the bandwaggon.. just seemed it might be a fausse-naive bluff....
She's an enigma to me. Honestly, her opposition to the Bom-waggon really doesn't look that suspicious. I mean, if you were an ordo who suspected phantom, and then there was a last-minute push to lynch an "easy target" instead– you might well think you were seeing an evil bandwaggon. On the other hand, as you say, she posted much and said little yesterDay, and toDay her defence of Rikae against Pitch's "case" seems over-the-top– perhaps a "white knight" act? (Now, if he had really been going after Rikae it would be different– but I don't think he was.)

EDIT: Fixed bolding; clarification

[Nerwen]

I understand what you're saying, McCaber- in normal conditions I NEVER kill my packmates. It's practically my number one rule as a baddie. But in this game one of your mates is against you and so long as he is alive you're very vulnerable. The traitor can take down the entire Forge, particularly if he finds his sweetheart and the both of them are trying to lynch the same people during the day (the other people in the village would definitely catch on if KD & Sweetheart do a joint attack, and it wouldn't count as revealing either because there'd be no way for a common player to know which is which- the two of them would basically be unstoppable).
Don't know about that bit– Folwren was explicit that "almost-reveals" would count as reveals– it was discussed on the Admin thread.

May as well try to make it alone, especially if you're someone like me that believes you will pull it off. Like I said- no Seer to be scared of, so no reason for a forceful and active player to be nervous if he thinks he can influence the vote enough to stay alive each day.
While this is basically a "good votes are bad votes" argument, it does make sense in this particular situation.

However, phantom, I'm pretty sure you're the only person Bomwolf accused, so....?:p

[Mithalwen]

Ah but Nerwen is not the trick to try and play the same regardless of role? Not that I have ever succeeded really with a special role... tends to bring on melt down. Very frustrating to be so suspected for doing exactly what you normally do..though on that occasion I did happen to be a woluf. Others must be able to perceive a difference whatever I think...like what they say about trying to act drunk - people try to fall over forgetting that a drunk is trying very hard to stay upright...anyway digression...

On the subject of Mc Caber is this sort of thing normal? Because it seems odd to me to just jump on other people's work ... I can't obviously object to a G55 vote since I have stated her suspicious but voting after spending what time he had looking at Bom and then seeming to claim the credit for finding G55 suspicious looks fishy to me. Or more accurately wolvish... and I am sorry Phantom I am not going to avoid the term - in this set up we are all dwarves so it is a bit simpler than saying Members of the Valley Forge . I can't help thinking a wolf might jump on TP's plan. As has been pointed wolf on wolf attacks have a different dynamic this game. And to get an early vote in for a fellow wolf might look good too. So hmmm Now I may be being thick but I had assumed the 4 members of the Forge included the KD? IF it doesn't with Glirdan out we certainly can't rest on our laurels. If it does it does leave more scope for there being more than one devil may care wolf.

Rikae... don't know... I find her hard to read...but I seem to remember a certain amount of feistyness so ...not TOO worried.

[Inziladun]

"He", not "she". Just letting you know.

Oops. Thanks for the correction.

It is entirely possible that this particular group of baddies is more likely than any Werewolf pack to purposefully try and lynch one another during the day!!

Now duh, of course we knew the KD was working against them, but what about the others? All they know is that THEY are not the traitor, where as every one of their fellows is potentially a double agent.

I'd already considered this possibility. As McCaber said, though, killing one another by Day is a pretty high-risk tactic, unless they see some very convincing evidence that of them could be the KD. I didn't see anything like that from Bom yesterDay.

So, without a Seer or Hunter to fear, it seems to me that the logical play would be to kill the other Forge members. And in fact accusing all three of your fellow members might be a smart play as it would make them extremely unlikely to turn against you, as they might fear that you are the KD and killing you would expose them.

But wouldn't that mean the KD was going along with your proposed (and abandoned by consensus) strategy?

All right- what do the rest of you think? If I was a Forge member I'd probably kill all the others and win it by myself.

And this goes back to the age-old discussion "I wouldn't do that if I was evil!!" :rolleyes:

But if you want an answer, fine. Personally, I don't like the idea of being a lone wolf. Winning that way would seem more chancy.

[Mithalwen]

Interesting use of tense there Inzil, don't not wouldn't...?

[Inziladun]

Interesting use of tense there Inzil, don't not wouldn't...?

And I thought I was a pedant. :rolleyes:

[satansaloser2005]

This seems likely to me– nothing she said seems like an obvious Ranger-hint. (Ahem! I'm afraid can't help recalling here a Mithwolf some games back explaining just why the pack killed Shasta...)

I noticed that too. She's a speculative creature, it's true, but this seems like baddie speculation, eerily similar to the game(s) you mention.

[Mithalwen]

And I thought I was a pedant. :rolleyes:

Oh you have no idea - I can take most people's pedantry and raise with confidence.

Speculation is the name of the game. And this time it is speculation as it happens.

[Pitchwife]

Pitch is acting abnormal toDay
You should have been there in Finland to hear Shastawolf cry out: "What happened to Mr Agreeable?!":D

But, you know, your attempt there remarkably fits one of the possible reactions I'd expect from a Forger who has just lost a packmate - try to make the best from the loss by spinning it against those who brought xem down. Rikae might qualify as well with her suggestion that Bom could have been the KD - luckily, that seems to be off the table now (and thanks to Nerwen for making a point of what I'd said before her:rolleyes:). Nice try though.

OK, now Foley's new ruling about not revealing the KD at death changes the dynamics a bit. Still, if the Forgers kill one of their own at Night, we won't need a map to identify his role - especially because the Sweetheart, once she's found him, would die along with him: 1 dead Forger + 1 other death = 1 KD. On the other hand, if the Sweetheart is killed, the KD gets his revenge kill and is also as good as revealed.
So, Sweetie-pie, if you're feeling noble and romantic and wouldn't mind risking your life for an innocent victory, you might want to find your Ironfist quickly, if you haven't yet. It depends of course on the numbers, whether we can still afford losing two innocent lives in one kill or not.

What this means for Forger tactics is that I think they'd be more likely to try and get the KD (whoever they think he is) lynched instead of going for him at Night, because they can't know whether the Sweetheart has already found him or not. Which, sadly, means that Forge-on-Forge votes will probably become more frequent now.

What this means for the KD: please be sure to leave hints to help us identify you if you get mislynched, especially if you have reason to think the other Forgers have found you out. You'll have to walk a fine line between hinting and forbidden revealing, but I hope you can think of something.
That said, I expect the other Forgers to try to confuse us by leaving hints of their own. But then, I think the real KD would have tried to hint (to the Sweetheart, if nobody else) well before all this.

[Boromir88]

Ha ha, no, I didn't think you were sucking up. Quite the opposite- I figured you were addressing me as carefully as possible according to your formulas involving me not being able to read you directly and also opening up an opportunity for you to read me etc. In a way the attitude felt copied and pasted from other Day 1s when you've spoken to me.

Heh, if only you had the formula. :p

Come on now, you know you can't lie (truths that don't lead to THE truth is a different, of course). You weren't serious about that KD stuff yesterday, just using some nice fodder for talk?

There is something different with Pitch, there's a fiery charm he's playing with right now. I quite like it.

[Inziladun]

But, you know, your attempt there remarkably fits one of the possible reactions I'd expect from a Forger who has just lost a packmate - try to make the best from the loss by spinning it against those who brought xem down. Rikae might qualify as well with her suggestion that Bom could have been the KD - luckily, that seems to be off the table now (and thanks to Nerwen for making a point of what I'd said before her:rolleyes:). Nice try though.

I can't stay for long or go searching for interactions and etc, but from toDay's posts, Pitchie's case against Rikae feels a bit... fabricated. I'll be back later with my thoughts in full...

And since I'm here, I can also say that Pitch is acting abnormal toDay, making an elephant out of a fly with Rikae. This isn't supposed to be related to my previous statement - at least in my head, - but they both stand... I think...

It does appear to me that G55's suspicions of Pitch seem rather forced. Pitch was hardly making a "case" against Rikae; just asking for a clarification.

What this means for Forger tactics is that I think they'd be more likely to try and get the KD (whoever they think he is) lynched instead of going for him at Night, because they can't know whether the Sweetheart has already found him or not. Which, sadly, means that Forge-on-Forge votes will probably become more frequent now.

Sensible, this. However, I still think the Bom voters from yesterDay look pretty good (and yes, I happen to be one of them).

[Pitchwife]

Haha, Boro, thanks - I suppose playing Live WW for the first time in Finland had that effect, to make me a little less cerebral and more spontaneous.

Which reminds me, Mith, the Jon Snow with a wolf is a character in A Song of Ice and Fire who was the subject of much joking at his expense during Finlandmoot. Just started to read the series and like it so far. It's quite a lot, though - four volumes, plus the fifth just out. Not a trilogy.

[Mithalwen]

Just what we need..more in jokes :rolleyes: Ah well ... I have a huge to read pile atm and somehow the more people talk about it the less interested I am ...

[Boromir88]

Ok, not going to reveal the KD if he dies...hmm, would this mean the other forgers won't know whether their lynched member was the KD or not too?

[Nerwen]

Ok, not going to reveal the KD if he dies...hmm, would this mean the other forgers won't know whether their lynched member was the KD or not too?

I'd guess not.

[Pitchwife]

Ok, not going to reveal the KD if he dies...hmm, would this mean the other forgers won't know whether their lynched member was the KD or not too?I'd guess not.
Me neither - which is of course good for us, as it'll increase mistrust and paranoia among the Forgers, hampering their ability to work as a pack. (Unless the KD somehow blunders and gives himself away to the others - but in this case he won't have much to lose afterwards.)

Wouldn't it be gorgeous if we could just help the Forgers lynch each other for a change? Too nice to come true, I'm afraid.

Anyway. Got to do some grocery shopping now, but I'll be back in a few hours for the rest of the Day. See ya.

[Finduilas]

Folwren said she would change the narration to not be from his point of view, so I'm thinking that it will be tolerably obvious to careful readers as to whether he dies. Though I kind of like the idea of the Forgers not knowing.

[Nerwen]

So I need to vote soon, just in case my connection goes down again, or I can't otherwise get back online before DL. This will be basically a placeholder, but still for somebody I have some suspicions against– which will probably be G55 (reasons already stated).

The other person I'm considering, though, is McCaber, who has been coming across as quite shifty to me.

Just a moment to think...

EDIT:X'd since last post.

[Galadriel55]

Well, we'll see how this turns out. I do believe we'll find a good chunk of the truth this lynch.

That's for all of you who couldn't find a single KD clue. ^.^ :p We know now that he's not the KD, but for all we - and the wolves - kne yesterDay, he mighta been. Though this is the only KD hint I found, and it was said when votes were already starting to fall on him... :confused:

It does appear to me that G55's suspicions of Pitch seem rather forced. Pitch was hardly making a "case" against Rikae; just asking for a clarification.

I get what you're saying. But, IMO, pressing the point and saying that she may as well be Forging at Night, is a case. And it just sounded ridiculous. The sentense he quoted, albeit a statement, sounds more frivolous than a serious declaration. Reminds me of myself in your game, when I tried to lynch someone for a joke-post.

Upon rereading, I come to be more and more suspicious of Pitchie and Phantom. I can see the twain awake at Night together. "Their swords and their councels may have two edges".... or something of that sort.

And it certainly makes it more difficult for villagers and wolves alike if they don't know the KD's identity. But especially villagers.

Edit: xed with Nerwen

[Inziladun]

So I need to vote soon, just in case my connection goes down again, or I can't otherwise get back online before DL. This will be basically a placeholder, but still for somebody I have some suspicions against– which will probably be G55 (reasons already stated).

The other person I'm considering, though, is McCaber, who has been coming across as quite shifty to me.

I'm wrestling with a similar dilemma. Today is looking to be quite busy from an RL standpoint. Trouble is, McCaber voted for G55. Who looks worse? Or does someone else outdo both in shiftiness?

McCaber is usually one of the quiet ones who is the very definition of "submarine". His immediate response to tp yesterDay in giving three "random" suspects was a bit odd. He didn't vote Day 1, so no help there.

And toDay he's latched on to G55 early, for "trying to stop a lynch of the Forge-ite Bom Tombadillo, and coming close to succeeding" (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660598&postcount=153). Is that what she did? Hm.

x/d with G55

[Boromir88]

Nearly fully trust/would truly be surprised if they were Forgers...

Pitch
Mith

Feel trusty enough that I won't vote today...

Nerwen
Phantom

No idea...


Glirdan
Finduilas
Eruhen

Makes me skeptical...

sally
G55
McCaber
Inzil
Rikae

Could have put Rikae as creepy, but she always does, so it's no more creepy than normal. But, I shall be looking at the skeptical list and possibly get to the no ideas.

[Nerwen]

And toDay he's latched on to G55 early, for "trying to stop a lynch of the Forge-ite Bom Tombadillo, and coming close to succeeding" (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660598&postcount=153). Is that what she did? Hm.
Well, no. He's voting someone who has done suspicious stuff– but the reason he gives is something that didn't actually happen like that. Again, it just seems shifty.

Okay, then–

++McCaber

This is tentative and I may end up changing it later.

EDIT:converted to vote-post; added comment

[satansaloser2005]

So let me make sure I understand this correctly....

We lynch an ordo. We know we've lynched an ordo.
We lynch a gifted. We know we've lynched a gifted.
We lynch one of the regular Forge members. We know we've lynched a Forge member.
We lynch the KD. We know we've lynched a Forge member.


Is this correct? Because if Foley suddenly decides to stop revealing roles, we would automatically know if it was the KD, so I'm assuming she'll just reveal alignment.



Anyway, off to look at people. I'm in a book shop, yay, so I should be able to catch up properly.


Also....


Spontaneous enough to kill? Pitch? :Merisu:

[Finduilas]

No idea...


Glirdan
Finduilas
Eruhen

Personally, Eruhen has made it to my "trust enough to not vote for today" list. Other than that, and where you have placed Inzil, I seem to agree mostly with your placing of people. Which makes me put you on the "trust enough to not vote for today" list.

xed with Sally and Nerwen

[the phantom]

I was doing a bit of rereading and spotted this-
...as I lay in bed tonight thinking about evil dwarves
Ha ha ha ha! :D

[satansaloser2005]

Now that Finduilas has admitted to having nasty dreams about Phantom, I think I'll go analyze him. :Merisu:

Also, oi. Boro, why did you vote me yesterDay? You make me sad. :(


ETA: Finduilas, that is, not Phantom. There's simply not enough time to tell all the things wrong with His Puddingness.

[Galadriel55]

So let me make sure I understand this correctly....

We lynch an ordo. We know we've lynched an ordo.
We lynch a gifted. We know we've lynched a gifted.
We lynch one of the regular Forge members. We know we've lynched a Forge member.
We lynch the KD. We know we've lynched a Forge member.


Is this correct? Because if Foley suddenly decides to stop revealing roles, we would automatically know if it was the KD, so I'm assuming she'll just reveal alignment.

That's right as far as I know. Anyone with a Forge mark (ie wolves and KD) will be called a Forge Member if they die. I think we'll know that it's the SH if she's lynched. If she's killed - obviously.

The fact that the KD's role is not revealed upon death makes things much more difficult for the village. It complicates things for the wolves as well, but they have the benefit of knowing something. Also, they can take information from Nightly conversations. For instance, the KD would try to influence the kill, and a wolf could detect that. But ordinary innocents won't know anything.

Edit: xed with Findy, tp, and sally

[Pitchwife]

Also, it does depend a lot on the personality of the wolves– how ruthless, how confident at being able to win alone, etc. So I wouldn't say for certain that the Forge members would go all out to kill each other, only that they might.

I would love to do a reread of yesterday with the dwarf-eat-dwarf mentality in mind, but I'm too tired. I'll be around tomorrow.

Well, we'll see how this turns out. I do believe we'll find a good chunk of the truth this lynch.That's for all of you who couldn't find a single KD clue. ^.^ :p We know now that he's not the KD, but for all we - and the wolves - kne yesterDay, he mighta been. Though this is the only KD hint I found, and it was said when votes were already starting to fall on him... :confused:
...but at a time where tp was still in the lead. But, come on, isn't that something that might be said about almost any D1 lynch, especially one with two competing bandwagons? Grasping for straws, I say.

Upon rereading, I come to be more and more suspicious of Pitchie and Phantom. I can see the twain awake at Night together. "Their swords and their councels may have two edges".... or something of that sort.
:D
Well, I'm not quite as fond of tp's thinking toDay as I was yesterDay, but I still think we're dealing with an innocent evil genius in this game, not an evil evil one. But rest assured, we don't share any Nightly activities - neither work at the forge nor of a more recreational kind.

(x-ed from #181 down)

[Rikae]

Folwren said she would change the narration to not be from his point of view, so I'm thinking that it will be tolerably obvious to careful readers as to whether he dies. Though I kind of like the idea of the Forgers not knowing.
Not so... she said:

Okay, yeah, I've decided to not reveal when the KD is killed. Which means my narrations will change a little bit, withdrawing from his point of view hence forward."

So Bom was not the KD, but none of the narrations will be from the KD's perspective from now on, and we (and the forge members) won't know if he dies.
Not caught up, still reading...
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[Pitchwife]

Crap, somehow all my comments on the quotes from Nerwen and tp got lost in posting. I'll try to retrieve them.

[Folwren]

We lynch an ordo. We know we've lynched an ordo.
We lynch a gifted. We know we've lynched a gifted.
We lynch one of the regular Forge members. We know we've lynched a Forge member.
We lynch the KD. We know we've lynched a Forge member.

This is correct. Unless the Sweetheart dies before she finds the KD, then she's just an Ordo still, pretty much.

There are four members of the Forge plus the KD.

And Finduilas is a 'she'.

-- Folwren

[the phantom]

(To McCaber) So in ch that case why did you jump straight in to complying with it?
Because if it WAS allowed to fly, it'd be a great way to get information out. I agreed with it, even though I didn't know if our Moddess Goddess would let it.
Um... you know, McCaber, no offence, but I'm not sure that's even an answer. Mith asked you why you jumped straight in without knowing if the plan would be allowed, and you said, "Yes, I did."
No, no, I understand his answer. He was about to leave for the day if I remember correctly, so he wanted to shoot his three suspects out there just in case we did adopt the plan. In other words, he thought it was a plan that could be beneficial and in case we decided to adopt it he wanted to be certain he had done the necessary work to be on board (named suspects). And if we didn't adopt it- oh well, it's not as if his naming of three people hurt anything.

[Galadriel55]

Well, I'm not quite as fond of tp's thinking toDay as I was yesterDay, but I still think we're dealing with an innocent evil genius in this game, not an evil evil one. But rest assured, we don't share any Nightly activities - neither work at the forge nor of a more recreational kind.

No, I don't think you're a long-legged elven blonde, I'm not that nuts yet... :D

But I will not rest, and most definitely will not be assured, until I see my suspicions proven.

++Pitchie

Seriously, he said and did too many things with double-meanings that just smell like Forgery. I will probably have the chance to duck in again before the DL, but just in case I'm voting now. I doubt that anything will come up that will make me change my mind.

Edit: xed with Foley and TP

[Pitchwife]

So this is what I meant to post up there, plus an update:
I would love to do a reread of yesterday with the dwarf-eat-dwarf mentality in mind, but I'm too tired. I'll be around tomorrow.
If it makes you happy - but remember, as of yesterDay the Rules still were that the KD would be revealed at death, so I think Forge-on-Forge in yesterDay's voting would be unlikely, except if the lynchee didn't leave any trails to their packmates; but then, why get rid of them in the first place?
(Yesyes, I get what you're saying, and it would be gorgeous if we could just help the Forgers lynch each other, but it's just too good to be true.)

Also, it does depend a lot on the personality of the wolves– how ruthless, how confident at being able to win alone, etc. So I wouldn't say for certain that the Forge members would go all out to kill each other, only that they might.
Yes. And I hope you'll take it as a compliment when I say that I can totally see you as the kind of player going for a lone victory and able to pull it off.
Which sort of fits you turn on G55, on whom you didn't say a word all yesterDay, other than sympathizing with her about first Days with tp (a bit like a loving wolf-mother comforting a shell-shocked cub?).

And, you know, although I didn't get around to commenting on it at the time, I wasn't at all comfortable with you yesterDay - first fishing for a Moddess-ruling against tp's plan, then, when that wasn't to be got, scattering some passing doubt on (IIRC) Bom, Boro, Eruhen and Findy without really going and committing anywhere, then disappearing. OK, if you couldn't come back for RL reasons, fine, but it all just fits the profile of a careful Forger who has come up against an unexpected problem and needs to reshuffle her cards.
_________________________

Oh, and now some people have started suspecting McCaber, there's a nice alternative to G55, so you won't have to vote her after all. Isn't that shiny?
Too bad I can't vote for the two of you together...

[the phantom]

Well, after rereading what I said back in this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=660581&postcount=141) post still stands generally- not liking Gal55's attitude yesterday and not wishing to lynch certain people.

Anyway, I have decided to swear fealty to Pitch, Boro, McCaber, and Mith. If by my life or death I can... No, scratch the death part, but if I can possibly save you and stay alive at the same time, I will.

I like that Mith spotted Inzil's word choice, as I noticed it too. Sorry lad. :p

And I also like that Bom and Gal55 both used Werewolf terminology. Makes me feel better about choosing her. Especially seeing that Nerwen also used Werewolf terms and defended Gal55 today. ;)

edit: x-post Pitch

[satansaloser2005]

This is correct. Unless the Sweetheart dies before she finds the KD, then she's just an Ordo still, pretty much.

There are four members of the Forge plus the KD.

And Finduilas is a 'she'.

-- Folwren



Ohhhh. Silly me. I thought there were only four total. It really has been a long week.

Also, whoops. Sorry, Finduilas. :(

[the phantom]

(To Nerwen) And, you know, although I didn't get around to commenting on it at the time, I wasn't at all comfortable with you yesterDay - first fishing for a Moddess-ruling against tp's plan, then, when that wasn't to be got, scattering some passing doubt on (IIRC) Bom, Boro, Eruhen and Findy without really going and committing anywhere, then disappearing.
I didn't really pay attention to those latter points (I'm willing to give some benefit of doubt on disappearances), but I certainly noticed the insistence on a Mod ruling.

It had the smell of someone thinking, "Crap, this could be the end of the line for me. But obviously I can't look outraged and scared. I'll just nicely stave it off with some light resistance and try and get the Moddess to put a stop to it."

[Mithalwen]

Right so ....13 players 3 straightforward baddies, KD sweetheart, No other gifted... We can't get complacent despite the Day one success.... can't fall into any silly "it is always worth lynching x because they mess with my head nonsense". We have very little margin for error here. And I need to find my notebook.. it was right here before I went out...argh.... I'll be back soon I hope...

[Boromir88]

Personally, Eruhen has made it to my "trust enough to not vote for today" list. Other than that, and where you have placed Inzil, I seem to agree mostly with your placing of people. Which makes me put you on the "trust enough to not vote for today" list.

Then I'll start with Inzil because, he's giving me sketchy vibes (or if you prefer just suspicious dwarvish majiks).

His joking vote for Galadriel started it. It was obviously a joke and not an actual vote since it wasn't highlighted. Kidding/joke suspicions is all in good fun, but it just looks weird to fake a vote as late as it was in the day.

Then followed by the back-and-forth with Bom in posts #93, 95 and 96. Concluding with Inzil casting 1st vote for tp (later retracted) but G55 and Bom quickly tacked on their votes.

Day 1 you can say I had a funky feeling, but didn't say anything because I wanted to observe him a bit more.

Then today
Let's see. I'm feeling pretty good about Eruhen, since she tied Bom with tp. Boro's vote might seem the least shiny of the Bom-voters, just because it came so late. Baddies have little to lose by putting another nail in a doomed mate's coffin, and everything to gain.

Call me biased, because it's about me, but I just don't like the look of that suspicion, without it really trying to look like a suspicion. I know Inzil's argument about wolf-on-wolf votes is a normal assumption to make, and I believe Inzil said at the beginning of the day he want to find something in the Bom votes.

Granted I didn't indicate I cross-posted, but I rarely ever take the time to edit in a "x-post" unless it's a massively long one. All one has to do is look at the time stamps and see my vote crossed with Inzil's and wilwa's therefor mine coming last in that group of 3 is inconsequential. Inzil pointing out my vote of all of them, being the "last one" and thus "least shiny" looks like a cheap boot-strapping suspicion attempt. (ergo, makes me suspicious of him).

[Pitchwife]

Right so ....13 players 3 straightforward baddies, KD sweetheart, No other gifted...
12 players, Mith. Glirdy dropped out, if I'm not mistaken (see wilwa on Admin thread).

[Boromir88]

And on sally...sorry my vote made you sad, but it's the quickest and easiest way I can take to try to figure you out.

That is put you under some pressure to get you talking instead of going through from day to day being an enigma.

[satansaloser2005]

And on sally...sorry my vote made you sad, but it's the quickest and easiest way I can take to try to figure you out.

That is put you under some pressure to get you talking instead of going through from day to day being an enigma.

Alas, it won't work this time, love. Today aside, I'm simply too busy. :(

[Mithalwen]

12 players, Mith. Glirdy dropped out, if I'm not mistaken (see wilwa on Admin thread).

Yes sorry I meant to mention that as a caveat but unless he is a member of the VF it only makes things tighter....

[Inziladun]

I like that Mith spotted Inzil's word choice, as I noticed it too. Sorry lad. :p

Don't be sorry! I'm not immune to suspicion, no matter how nit-picky. ;)

Call me biased, because it's about me, but I just don't like the look of that suspicion, without it really trying to look like a suspicion. I know Inzil's argument about wolf-on-wolf votes is a normal assumption to make, and I believe Inzil said at the beginning of the day he want to find something in the Bom votes.

SO what I said would have been all right, if it hadn't been you I was talking about? :rolleyes:

Granted I didn't indicate I cross-posted, but I rarely ever take the time to edit in a "x-post" unless it's a massively long one. All one has to do is look at the time stamps and see my vote crossed with Inzil's and wilwa's therefor mine coming last in that group of 3 is inconsequential. Inzil pointing out my vote of all of them, being the "last one" and thus "least shiny" looks like a cheap boot-strapping suspicion attempt. (ergo, makes me suspicious of him).

Maybe I'm biased, but this seems like an overdone defense for such a relatively small observation about your vote.

[satansaloser2005]

Oh dear, how terribly confusing.

I think it would be rather unfun if the KD did stuff purposely to die. I don't think that the plan is fool-proof, though of course, any werewolf strategy usually isn't (that is, if werewolf is enough like Mafia for me to be able to say that). And also, Phantom suggested that the Sweetheart be a turncoat and do her best to get the fellow killed. That's just wrong... from a story point of view. As to whether it's logical game-wise, I'll think about it as I lay in bed tonight thinking about evil dwarves. Not that me thinking it logical changes anything... But it would still be wrong...

Agreed. Glad we've mostly settled all this.


Sorry for "playing the newbie" folks. I really have had more to say, I'm just keep writing it and not posting it until it is obsolete. That being said, I have 8 minutes till deadline, and guests in the living room... meaning, I don't have time to write another posts in argument. :)

++ Inziladun

Edit: thanks muchly Boro.

Tip: Even if what you've said has already been mentioned, you should still post it. Otherwise, you look like you don't have an opinion of your own, which can be even more troublesome for you.


Hm. I'm feeling terribly out of this game, I've been too quiet. Let's see if I can fix that. :D

Zil, my vote for you was a case of... indecision (with a smidgen of time pressure too). I wanted to vote for both TP and Bom, but I dislike killing people on the first day (sorry, always have, I'll show more backbone toDay), so I voted for someone who had no votes, and who had not particularly struck me as a definite innocent. So I haven't decided on you yet, but that's why I voted for you. :) Actually, considering your retraction vote from Phantom (who'm I currently think is "innocent", though most other players seem to have termed him as evil, Forge member or not...) to Bom, I think I might trust you...

So you voted Dun based on lack of trust, rather than suspicion? Interesting.


Folwren said she would change the narration to not be from his point of view, so I'm thinking that it will be tolerably obvious to careful readers as to whether he dies. Though I kind of like the idea of the Forgers not knowing.

I have a problem with your logic here. If "careful readers" will notice, it's likely the Forge would be able to figure it out as well. After all, we weren't aligned based upon our intelligence. It just seems like a strange statement to me.


Personally, Eruhen has made it to my "trust enough to not vote for today" list. Other than that, and where you have placed Inzil, I seem to agree mostly with your placing of people. Which makes me put you on the "trust enough to not vote for today" list.

Why? Why do you trust Eruhen now? At the point at which Eruhen voted for Bom, yes, it tied him up with Phantom, but Phantom (or someone else) easily could have been lynched. And if we go with Phantom's idea of a more nefarious and mistrusting Forge, Eruhen could have been trying to lynch Bom and still be guilty.

[Boromir88]

Maybe I'm biased, but this seems like an overdone defense for such a relatively small observation about your vote.

And there's the 2nd easy boot-strapped suspicion. Come on Inzil you know I'm cooler under pressure. "AHH SOMEONE'S SUSPECTING I MUST DEFEND I MUST DEFEND!" :rolleyes:

Since it's coming from me obviously it's going to be a defense, but I'm making the point that your "observation" (if that's how you want to down play it) was flawed because you just saw I was the last of the 3 votes in a cross-voting and determined that mine was the least shiny of all the Bom votes.

[Finduilas]

Also, whoops. Sorry, Finduilas. :(

Not a problem at all. I'll admit I didn't even catch the slip-up until Folwren mentioned it. :)

So you voted Dun based on lack of trust, rather than suspicion? Interesting.
Yes, I voted for Zil (Dun, Inziladun, whatever) on lack of trust as opposed to suspicion. At the time, I had no major suspicions, and therefore didn't want to help in killing anyone.

I have a problem with your logic here. If "careful readers" will notice, it's likely the Forge would be able to figure it out as well. After all, we weren't aligned based upon our intelligence. It just seems like a strange statement to me.
My point with the careful readers was that, even though Folwren wont necessarily state that the KD has died, anyone, if they pay attention will be able to tell. However, I saw from Rikea's post that others read it as Foley planning on changing her narration as of now, instead of after he died. Which, if so, takes out the possibility of what I said of careful readers. I wasn't making a judgement on anyone's intelligence...

Why? Why do you trust Eruhen now? At the point at which Eruhen voted for Bom, yes, it tied him up with Phantom, but Phantom (or someone else) easily could have been lynched. And if we go with Phantom's idea of a more nefarious and mistrusting Forge, Eruhen could have been trying to lynch Bom and still be guilty.
My trust for Eruhen began at this post: Plus, there's the definite downside of getting the KD before he has a chance to hint to anyone who he thinks the Forgers might be going after.

Alsø alsø wik, the longer the KD has to give hints to the NWD, the better idea the NWD has of who's in the Forge and who isn't. The Forgers obviously aren't going to attack their own, so whatever names the KD gives to the NWD are known innocents. So, between the two of them, the KD and NWD work as a pseudo-Seer. Benefit to keeping both of them around as long as possible.

It seemed to me that a Forge member would not have pointed out the usefulness of the KD/NWD connection.

[Galadriel55]

Got 5 minutes, wanna say this

Then followed by the back-and-forth with Bom in posts #93, 95 and 96. Concluding with Inzil casting 1st vote for tp (later retracted) but G55 and Bom quickly tacked on their votes.

...

Granted I didn't indicate I cross-posted, but I rarely ever take the time to edit in a "x-post" unless it's a massively long one. All one has to do is look at the time stamps and see my vote crossed with Inzil's and wilwa's therefor mine coming last in that group of 3 is inconsequential. Inzil pointing out my vote of all of them, being the "last one" and thus "least shiny" looks like a cheap boot-strapping suspicion attempt. (ergo, makes me suspicious of him).

OK, I believe what you're saying about the cross-voting. But you - and everyone else - forgot to notice that I also crossed with Zil's vote. And I did indicate that.

And I also like that Bom and Gal55 both used Werewolf terminology. Makes me feel better about choosing her.

If this isn't the worst reason out there for suspecting me. :rolleyes: :p

Edit: xed with Findy.

[the phantom]

It seemed to me that a Forge member would not have pointed out the usefulness of the KD/NWD connection.
Yes, I definitely made note of that when it happened. I'd say it's a good reason not to have Eruhen at the top of the list currently.
And I also like that Bom and Gal55 both used Werewolf terminology. Makes me feel better about choosing her.
If this isn't the worst reason out there for suspecting me.
Sorry, but you know how I have this obession with killing your RPG characters? Well, this is the next best thing. :p

[satansaloser2005]

Willing to vote:
Galadriel: Still reading her as Galwolfriel (and too lazy to make it a Forge term)
Mith: That post commenting on the Night still looks like a Mithillain
Pitch: More of a hunch, so he's probably my third choice
Rikae: What is up with that formatting?! (Not actually going to vote you, love. :p)

Will be cranky if they're killed:
Boro: Right now he looks innocent
Phantom: If he's evil, he needs to die immediately, but I want to keep him around for now


That's where I am right now. Well, that and about to leave Barnes and Noble.

[Pitchwife]

Back from walking the dogs. The Dwarven colour scale toDay, as of now:

White-Hot
(I bet you'd like to know)

Mithril
Eruhen
McCaber
Mith
tp

Iron
Boro
Zil
(too much at each other's throats for mithril)
Finduilas
sally

some darker ore
Ms Cubbies-Overlay

galvorn
G55
Nerwen

And there's really not much point in postponing it -
++G55

[Rikae]

I have a problem with your logic here. If "careful readers" will notice, it's likely the Forge would be able to figure it out as well. After all, we weren't aligned based upon our intelligence. It just seems like a strange statement to me.


This is exactly what I would say as a wolf if I felt the intelligence of the wolves had been insulted (and yes, I'm going to keep calling them wolves - they are wolves in spirit).

I don't have much to go on at this point, but I would like to say that I don't think the case against G55 based on her vote yesterDay is a good one at all - if anything, it was a vote and an argument unlikely to come from an actual wolf. As for her defense of me, I don't think Pitch was making a case at that time and I kind of don't think she thought so either...

Does anyone else find a certain person's musings on literature to be - interesting? I think tp may be quite right with his wolf-on-wolf argument.

[the phantom]

Pitch- your list. Can I ask, is everyone precisely where you feel they ought to be, or has one or more individuals been shifted slightly for the purpose of good strategic play?

Rikae- if you're speaking of what I have seen, then you are saying that it was meant to be misleading?

[Inziladun]

Since it's coming from me obviously it's going to be a defense, but I'm making the point that your "observation" (if that's how you want to down play it) was flawed because you just saw I was the last of the 3 votes in a cross-voting and determined that mine was the least shiny of all the Bom votes.

As you yourself noted, you didn't indicate an x/post, and I'll admit I didn't notice the time stamp. Take that as thou wilt.

x/d with tp

[satansaloser2005]

This is exactly what I would say as a wolf if I felt the intelligence of the wolves had been insulted (and yes, I'm going to keep calling them wolves - they are wolves in spirit).

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, as far as suspicions, but it looked to my like Finduilas was saying that only the ordinary villagers would pick up on it, which of course wouldn't be the case. Saying that the Forge wouldn't get it so she could express relief at their mishap just looked a bit staged.

And yes, I think Phantom has the right idea with the wolf-on-wolf theory. There's really no reason to protect one's packmates, because any of them could be out to kill you.



Leaving in ten, but I'll be back to vote. I'm still leaning toward Mith, Galadriel, and possibly Pitch. Try to dissuade me if you think it's in the village's best interest.

[Pitchwife]

This is exactly what I would say as a wolf if I felt the intelligence of the wolves had been insulted (and yes, I'm going to keep calling them wolves - they are wolves in spirit).
Dwolves?

I don't have much to go on at this point, but I would like to say that I don't think the case against G55 based on her vote yesterDay is a good one at all - if anything, it was a vote and an argument unlikely to come from an actual wolf. As for her defense of me, I don't think Pitch was making a case at that time and I kind of don't think she thought so either...
It's not only her vote yesterDay and the last minute flurry, it's also her reactions yesterDay, her revenge-vote for me... it all adds up.
And she explicitely called it a case.

Does anyone else find a certain person's musings on literature to be - interesting? I think tp may be quite right with his wolf-on-wolf argument.
:D
Love you too.

EDIT: x-ed from #121 down

[Inziladun]

Let's go ahead with this for now, as I may or may not be able to get back before DL.

++G55

There's the vote yesterDay for tp, close on the heels of mine. Then there was the odd Pitch / Rikae thing toDay. And she's been voted by Pitch and Eruhen, two that I'm inclined to trust at the moment.

x/d with Pitch

[Boromir88]

As you yourself noted, you didn't indicate an x/post, and I'll admit I didn't notice the time stamp. Take that as thou wilt.

x/d with tp

Fairy nuff, I won't harp on it at least, but I still be watching ye and that axe yer wieldin'.

[the phantom]

(Btw, deadline is just over an hour away?)

[Galadriel55]

Throwaway Day One votes are sometimes ok. But I don't like throwaway Day 2 votes.

--Pitch

++G55

But I tell you, he's evil. He is. I said, HE. IS. There. And so it TP.

I might not be able to post until after DL, so good luck, my friends, even though you all want to lynch me. :(

Edit: xed with TP

[Mithalwen]

Anyway, I have decided to swear fealty to Pitch, Boro, McCaber, and Mith. If by my life or death I can... No, scratch the death part, but if I can possibly save you and stay alive at the same time, I will.

I like that Mith spotted Inzil's word choice, as I noticed it too. Sorry lad. :p



Oh TP I didn't think you cared anymore:Merisu:

Hmmm ok now to get serious again,,,,

[Pitchwife]

Pitch- your list. Can I ask, is everyone precisely where you feel they ought to be, or has one or more individuals been shifted slightly for the purpose of good strategic play?
More or less where I think they belong - but you'll have noticed that the person who should go in White-Hot must be somewhere else.

EDIT: x-ed from Nilpadriel55

[the phantom]

Okay Gal55, you're just begging for it now.

The thing is, by claiming surety of Pitch and I being evil you've let me know that you can't possibly be the KD or Sweetheart in contact with the KD (since I'm not evil), and I can't imagine a simple Ordo would express such blind surety at this stage merely in an effort to save herself. An Ordo would have at least some concept of the idea that while she may be innocent she could well be painting more valuable team members (KD or Sweetheart) as evil.

It seems to me that you could be a Forge member banking on us not finding out after your death whether you're the KD and you're hoping people will suspect that's what you were and thus lynch Pitch and I after you're gone.

[Boromir88]

This is exactly what I would say as a wolf if I felt the intelligence of the wolves had been insulted (and yes, I'm going to keep calling them wolves - they are wolves in spirit).

I don't have much to go on at this point, but I would like to say that I don't think the case against G55 based on her vote yesterDay is a good one at all - if anything, it was a vote and an argument unlikely to come from an actual wolf. As for her defense of me, I don't think Pitch was making a case at that time and I kind of don't think she thought so either...

Does anyone else find a certain person's musings on literature to be - interesting? I think tp may be quite right with his wolf-on-wolf argument.

A few things about this post moves Rikae further up the "I could vote for today" list.

The first statement is just a flawed argument. Are you saying you suspect sally because she said exactly something you would say if you were a wolf?

2nd paragraph is an interesting defense for someone who seems will possibly be a lynch (G55). I say interesting because not many are willing to defend Galadriel right now, and then Rikae's conclusion that tp may be right about wolf-on-wolf voting looks like an attempt to divert attention elsewhere. Clever switch of strategy...? I mean if we're sitting here talking about the Forgers may be more likely to vote for themselve do to the presense of the KD, it's too easy for the Forge members to feed us exactly what we want/expect to see.

I suspect the Forge has to be careful not to get another one of theirs lynched today, or that would put the number at 2 + the King's Dwarf. It becomes very difficult for the Forge, knowing if they lose 1 more and it's not the KD, because in the 1 Forge + 1 KD situation, the Forge member would not be able to kill the KD at night. Is this making any sense, because I kind of just confused myself?

And that last cryptic suspicion...I mean yes, I believe we all see what you're referencing, but in that case, just come out with it. Say it's Pitch and state what you find suspicious about it.

[the phantom]

And that last cryptic suspicion...I mean yes, I believe we all see what you're referencing, but in that case, just come out with it. Say it's Pitch and state what you find suspicious about it.
No, no, you shouldn't have done this. Leave it in the dark. Otherwise you're practically begging for modfire.

And speaking of which, Pitch- you didn't need to answer me quite that directly. Like I said, there's thin ice in this village. Tread carefully. If you don't, you run the risk of losing anyone that's on your side, for we are quite near to the point where I'll actually become suspicious if certain individuals aren't modfired (if things continue on the path).

Take it easy.

[Boromir88]

I would be terribly disappointed if somehow everyone lost their minds and decided it would be a good idea to lynch, Pitch, Mith, or phantom today. Other than those ones (I'd be moderately disappointed if it was sally, but that's just a personal opinion that has no reflection on the current day), seems like there's been at least reasonable and good decisions today.

++Rikae

[Boromir88]

No, no, you shouldn't have done this. Leave it in the dark. Otherwise you're practically begging for modfire.


Yeah, well, you know I'm not one who likes to be shushed, restrained, or if I say something wrong, *poof* I'm gone. I have no tight rope to walk, so whatever.

[Finduilas]

++ G55

I'll try to get on once more before DL, and I might change my vote, but her voting for self decided me on her.

[Rikae]

Yes, tp, I think it's misleading and I consider it unlikely that it's only partially so.

Pitch, when I say I don't think she thought so, that is exactly what I mean... not that she didn't say so. I don't trust you for obvious reasons, therefore I'm rather inclined to trust her.

[Pitchwife]

*stares blankly at phantom, blinks, is puzzled*
What the blazes are you talking about?
Apparently I wasn't clear enough, so you got me completely wrong; but OK, let's leave it at that for now. If need be, I can clarify toMorrow.

[Rikae]

G55, you do realize being lynched by day is no longer much help, right? Or is it?

[Rikae]

And yes, Boro, I do think it's suspicious when I see someone reacting as I would as a wolf, especially if it's someone that shares relevant personality traits. Is that so strange?

[the phantom]

Well, this has turned into a runaway.

Eruhen++Gal55
McCaber++Gal55 (2)
Nerwen++McCaber
Gal55++Pitch
Pitch++Gal55 (3)
Inzil++Gal55 (4)
**Gal55--Pitch (0)**
Gal55++Gal55 (5)
Boro++Rikae
Findu++Gal55 (6)

Hoo boy- I seem to detect multiple individuals putting off a vibe of surrender, and I wonder if it's a very good sign, but the other half of me wonders if it isn't too good to be true.

[Rikae]

*stares blankly at phantom, blinks, is puzzled*
What the blazes are you talking about?
Apparently I wasn't clear enough, so you got me completely wrong; but OK, let's leave it at that for now. If need be, I can clarify toMorrow.

Is that the best you can do?

++Pitch

[Mithalwen]

OK I thought I was up to speed on this game but I now officially don't have a clue.. coffee, then knickers on head and say wibble...

[the phantom]

Eruhen++Gal55
McCaber++Gal55 (2)
Nerwen++McCaber
Gal55++Pitch
Pitch++Gal55 (3)
Inzil++Gal55 (4)
**Gal55--Pitch (0)**
Gal55++Gal55 (5)
Boro++Rikae
Findu++Gal55 (6)
Rikae++Pitch

Mith, Sally, and Phantom have not voted yet.

[satansaloser2005]

....Seriously?

[the phantom]

As far as my vote, Gal55 didn't look shiny to me after my earlier readthrough of yesterday, and she's done a couple things today to boost that opinion (see her recent suicide).

How could I not vote for her?

So really unless there is a last minute flurry of vote-changes (and why would there be?), she is gone.

[Rikae]

Don't you think it's strange that someone hasn't been modfired?

[satansaloser2005]

++Galadriel

[Finduilas]

Don't you think it's strange that someone hasn't been modfired?

Rikae, who do you think deserves modfiring? Am I really not getting things? actually, I suppose you shouldn't tell me.

[the phantom]

Now I will vote.

++Pitch

:smokin:

[Rikae]

I suppose the fact that this person does not deserve modfiring would be pretty good evidence that this person is not what he hints at being...

[Boromir88]

And yes, Boro, I do think it's suspicious when I see someone reacting as I would as a wolf, especially if it's someone that shares relevant personality traits. Is that so strange?

Not strange, more or less making sure if that was a suspicion against sally or not.

OK I thought I was up to speed on this game but I now officially don't have a clue.. coffee, then knickers on head and say wibble...

Hmm, maybe a more healthy practice than me. I'm at the point where I see 3 or 4 dwarves clearly plotting something and knowing something I don't, therefor I say just go down the line and lynch 'em. This mood could change tomorrow when it's not so close to the DL.

[the phantom]

Yes, Rikae, that was the point I made earlier about creating mistrust rather than trust. We'll see.

[Folwren]

Dead line. Stop posting. Narration to follow shortly.

[Mithalwen]

eek sorry had blondmoment
thought I had another hour... but I doubt it would have helped.

[Folwren]

Dismay and distrust was common through the dwarven village that day. Few dwarves felt they could trust any of their neighbors enough to believe anything said. This day, many of them spoke, and no one dwarf made any case noticeably louder than another. And yet, even without one dwarf pushing the thoughts and actions of the others, they seemed to move together, as though led by some unseen force.

How it started, no one quite knew, but it became evident that one dwarf woman had fallen under much distrust.

“It is not me! It cannot be me! It is him, I tell you,” Gal said, pointing towards the dwarf she suspected, “he’s not normal, I know him and he hasn’t been acting normal today! Why don’t you distrust him? Why do you distrust me?”

“A strange hunch, you know?” a dwarf replied with a shrug. “We haven’t much else to go on.”

“Brilliant. So you’ll help the Forges by knocking me off, will you? That won’t do the lot of you a bit of good. Look, it’s him, I know it is – and the loud one who spoke yesterday.” She craned her neck to look for the dwarf who had led most of the debate the previous day. “One of them, probably both of them, are the one’s you’re looking for.”

“We’ve had enough talk,” a dwarf growled. “Let us do away with her.” He moved threateningly towards her, and the crowd murmured their approval. They were becoming dangerous and violent.

“She is a woman, let us put her to death in a gentler way than Bom,” someone suggested.

“Gentler death? It all ends up the same doesn’t it?”

The dwarf ignored the protest, and stepped up to the condemned dwarf. “Will you submit to death, or must we bind you?”

“Take me,” she spat out. “I will not fight. I am not a coward. But stay – let us to the river and there I will take my own life.” She pushed through the mob and they parted before her and then followed as she went to the bridge that spanned the mighty river running down from the mountain. There she turned and climbed onto the stone wall. She faced the dwarves standing at the far end of it, and then she leapt, jumping to her death in the water and the stones below.

Later in the evening, her body was washed up on the shore some miles down from the village. A passing dwarf found her, and he looked, surprised. The sleeve of her shirt had been torn by the rocks and the current, and on her shoulder was a brand he only recognized from rumors he had heard, and it made him shiver, for he thought wrongly that the Valley Forge had found another victim.

Alive
Sally
Inzil
Nerwen
Boro
Eruhen
Finduilas
Rikae
McCaber
Pitchwife
the Phantom
Mithalwen

Dead
Folwren - Moddess
Bom - Member of the Valley Forge
Wilwa - Night Watchdwarf
Glirdan - Ordo
Gal55 - Member of the Valley Forge

[Folwren]

“One of us is a traitor.” The firelight glimmered on the dwarf’s face, reflecting in his dark eyes. He looked about the remaining company. They had dwindled to an appallingly small number in an appallingly short amount of time. “I want to know who it is!”

A silence met him. His two companions stared back at him grimly.

“We may have had a traitor, but what if he is dead now?” one asked.

“Is he really?” The dwarf moved dangerously about the table to the speaker. “I don’t think I’ll feel safe until I know that he is.”

“How will you know?”

“There’s only one test.” And as he spoke, he plunged his dagger in, driving it in till the hilts rested against his ribs.

“I trusted you,” the dying dwarf whispered. “It was part of your tests.”

“I trust everyone I swear in,” the dwarf replied, bending above him. “Until they betray me.” He drew back, pulling the blade with him. The warm blood flowed out and onto the floor, leaving a pool beneath the body.

“Let’s take him out to the streets so the others can see that even traitors in our own fellowship meet the same end.”

Alive
Sally
Inzil
Nerwen
Boro
Eruhen
Finduilas
McCaber
Pitchwife
the Phantom
Mithalwen

Dead
Folwren - Moddess
Bom - Member of the Valley Forge
Wilwa - Night Watchdwarf
Glirdan - Ordo
Gal55 - Member of the Valley Forge
Rikae - Member of the Valley Forge

(For the record, I'd like to make note that I know Rikae's a she, but I didn't want to bother making it so in the narration. It's just so much simpler to have all the Forgers be "he's" in the story. Sorry, Rikae. Gal must've been special.)

[Inziladun]

Wow. They're dropping like flies.

So, at worst we have two Forgers left, and at best, we have one.

For the record, I doubt G55 was the KD. It's more likely to be Rikae, due to what she said after G55's self-vote.

[the phantom]

Ah yes, I think most of us expected something funny like that. Now I'm interested to see everyone's take on what happened (I have my own ideas, but that will have to wait- for the sake of being annoying and/or drama).

But of course I'd remind everyone to present your case in such a way that you aren't putting someone in the position of being modfired if they dare address the case you've laid out.

In other words, if you say "I think Saucepan Man is the KD, what do you have to say about that Saucepan Man?" then you're being dumb.