TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Nerwen]

Nerwen the Resplendent, Supreme Ruler of the Greater Haradian Empire, lightly drummed her long scarlet nails on the gold-scaled, ruby-eyed snake’s head that terminated the armrest of her throne. The clacking sound carried through the gilded emptiness of the vast chamber, but the black-clad figure who stood before her– stood! – when all others must prostrate themselves!– gave no sign of unease.

“It is well that your Imperial Splendour consider my Lord’s offer of alliance, O She Who Is Brighter than the Moon,” the Envoy said, daring to meet her gaze with strange eyes grey as distant rain. “But pray do not hesitate too long. My Master has reclaimed his realm and begun the rebuilding of the Dark Tower; his power now grows apace, and great shall be the rewards for those who aid him. Others may find him– less generous.”

By her side, her Royal Executioner stirred, hand toying with a loop of gleaming wire, and a sharp hiss of breath carried all the way from the great carven door where the Captain of the Guard waited. The Empress had but to lift her hand, and these her most faithful servants would instantly strike down this insolent stranger who had the temerity to almost-threaten their mistress.

She made no such move. It was true that the cup the Lord of the Black Land held out to her contained more than a trace of bitterness. When she had first ascended the Serpent Throne, a decade since, the realms of Harad had been only a collection of petty and often squabbling kingdoms– and now it seemed the empire she had forged in blood and fire must itself become a mere vassal state of Mordor. But these were foolish thoughts. There could be no shame, even for her, in serving an overlord who was no mortal but a living god– and nothing but glory in the prospect of crushing Gondor once and for all. There were so many humilations to avenge.

“So be it,” she said at length. “Harad will make alliance with the Lord of Mordor, our friend of old.”

“A wise decision, O She Who Is Brighter than the Moon. My Master will welcome the news.” The Envoy seemed to relax, a little, and for the first time the pale face showed a hint of emotion. The Empress thought it might have been relief. Fleetingly, she wondered if the Envoy were really so confident as appearances suggested. The young Black Númenórean sorcerer could not have been long in the service of Mordor, after all– and she had always heard the Dark Lord tolerated failure even less than she did herself.

But the feelings of underlings were no concern of hers. “And what, then, is this other matter? This information so secret you requested a private audience with us?”

“Your Splendour, there are spies in the Palace,” the Envoy declared flatly.

“What of it?” The Empress was genuinely puzzled. “They will be found out, tormented and fed to the sacred serpents, as always. Is it really for such trivial matters that you trouble our Imperial ear?”

“These are no ordinary spies, O She of Matchless Perfection. I have learned that a certain foul wizard, here I believe called Incánus–”

“The name is known to us,” the Empress said grimly. “Go on.”

“I have discovered that he has used his vile magic to disguise four Men of Gondor, ancient foe of both our peoples, so that they can walk undetected amongst us. They could, Your Splendour, be anyone.”

“Anyone?’’ The Empress clutched the cold serpent’s head. It seemed darker suddenly, as if a shadow had passed across the windowed cupola overhead, blocking the evening light. She was unpleasantly aware of the Executioner’s presence, so close at her side, so dangerously close…

“No-one…” the grey eyes closed, “…no-one in this chamber, I think… Yes, I am sure of it. I can sense thoughts, sometimes, and these two,” with a brief, half-mocking glance at the Captain and Executioner, “fairly blaze with loyalty for your Imperial Splendour. If only all others were so faithful– or so easy to read. Not,” the Envoy added quickly, “that my arts won’t serve me, but it may take time, and I’d need to watch, and listen… Alas! Many of your Splendour’s people seem to be– apprehensive of me– for some reason. I fear they will be too guarded in my presence…”

“Then we will fight fire with fire,” said the Empress, with the decisiveness that had carried her to many a hard-won victory. “Envoy, you must disguise yourself also. And my servants, too– they shall aid you. Go all of you– seek out this evil and destroy it!”

The Envoy of Mordor gave a somewhat minimal bow, while the Captain of the Guard and Royal Executioner abased themselves in the proper manner, touching their heads to the floor and intoning, “We live to serve, O She for Whom the Stars Do Shine.”

“Wait–“ said the Empress, as the three turned to leave. “Envoy–we have heard of a young acolyte of the Serpent cult, said to be near as skilled as yourself in the sorcerous arts. Might such a one, too, be of help?”

“Perhaps, your Splendour, perhaps– if this Acolyte proves truly loyal…”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Night One has begun. Night people, start doing Night things.

NOTE: use of epithets is in no way a clue to the identity of the gifteds. So there.

[Nerwen]

As night fell on the Palace, the figure who had been watching on the roof of the throneroom slipped quietly into the deserted, out-of-the way courtyard where three others waited.

“Well, you made it, then,” said one of them. “I’d have wagered you’d break your neck up there– it must be true there’s Elvish blood in Dol Amroth. –Bad, is it?”

“Very bad. Curse these Southrons! Yes: she’s gone over to the Enemy. What did you expect?”

“Nothing less– but you know our realms are hardly prepared for this. Morgoth take that woman! If it weren’t for her the Haradrim would still be bickering amongst themselves.”

“You know,” said a third, “I believe that if “She who is Brighter than the Moon” were to meet with an… accident… the empire might simply fall apart.”

“Hmmn… do you suppose the Grey Pilgrim really had something like this is mind when he enchanted us?” asked the fourth member of the group.

“Oh, what he doesn’t know won’t hurt him. Besides, it’s in a good cause.”

“But that’s not all,” said the climber of Dol Amroth. “That Black renegade is on to us, and has told the Empress. I fear we may not get out of the Palace alive as it is.”

The four of them looked at one another. “Well, then,” said the one who has spoken first, “nothing to lose, have we?”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The morning sun glittered on the spires and domes of the Palace. Even at this hour, the wind blew like a hot breath from the desert, but the coolness of night still lingered in the marble hall that was the ante-chamber to the throne room. Welcome it must have been, since the chamber was crowded with those seeking the favour of the great ruler as well as the slaves and performers who had been selected to entertain them.

The great doors, whose rich carvings and inlays told of the many bloody campaigns on which the Empire had been built, had now been kept shut an hour past their usual time, and the throng was starting to grow restive or alarmed, according to the nature of its individual members. One particularly impatient man, a wealthy merchant by his robes, shouldered his way through the crowd to confront Eruhen, the Chief Eunuch. “Look here! How much longer are we expected to wait? I’ll have you know I’m meant to have an audience with the Empress herself. My coffee is the finest, my camels the best bred in all–”

“She Who is Brighter then the Moon,” said the eunuch coldly, in his clear, high-pitched voice, “may make the Prince of Khand wait until the inland sea goes dry if it should please her Splendour– let alone some cheating merchant!” He clapped his hands. “Be off with you!”

The merchant was too shocked and humiliated to protest– or to notice the alacrity with which Eruhen spun to question the panting messenger-girl who had just run up from the direction of the Empress’s private chambers.

“Well, Sally? How long before her Implerial Splendour is ready?”

“Master, there’s something wrong!” the girl gasped. “The Empress’s hand-maiden says there’s no answer from Her Splendour! No answer all morning!”

Eruhen found the outer doors of the Empress’s quarters already opened. A guard-lieutenant and a diaphanously-robed slave-girl were listening at the doors to the Imperial Sleeping Chamber with anxious looks on their faces.

“You are the handmaiden?” Eruhen asked the girl.

“Yes, Master– Rikae is this one’s unworthy name, if it please you, Master… Oh, what can the matter be? She Who Is Brighter than the Moon has always before heard this slave’s knock in the morning!”

Eruhen peered at the guard. “I don’t think I know you. Who are you? And where is the Captain?”

“Lietenant Shastanis Althreduin– and… I… well, I’m not quite sure where the Captain is, actually… but there can’t be anything wrong. Why, I’d never fail her Imperial Splendour! I have not moved from my post all night!"

“Open the doors!” the Chief Eunuch ordered.

“What!” the guardman gasped. “But– but her Splendour– will– she will–“

“Open them!”

Shaking with fear, the lieutenant pushed open the door.

The chamber was carpeted in scarlet and gold, and scarlet were the tapestried curtains that hung around the royal bed. But none were so vivid as the blood that drenched the silken sheets and pillows where the Empress lay, or the gaping wound in her throat.

A trail of bloody prints led across the room to the open window.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Living
Boromir88 –Wealthy mûmak breeder.
Sally –Messenger girl.
Galadriel55 –Professional assassin.
Shasta –Particularly attentive guard-lieutenant.
Steve –Court Jester (from Umbar).
Pomegranate –Entertainer.
A Little Green –The Empress's favourite snake-charmer.
Rikae –Empress's handmaiden.
Eruhen –Court eunuch.
Pitchwife –Captain in the "Provisional Royal Númenórean Navy" and emissary of Angamaitë IX, Lord of Umbar.
Lottie –Accident-prone sorcerer's apprentice.
Bom Tombadillo –Greatly afflicted beggar.
Inziladun –Minister of the Treasury.
Lommy! –Court physician.
Nogrod –Camel and coffee trader.
Legate of Amon Lanc –Legate of Khand.

Dead
The Empress of Harad (mod).


Day One has begun.

[Thinlómien]

First post. Maybe the second time in my life. Yay! It's great to be playing again. *stretches* We'll see how rusty I am.

So, shall we lynch the loud (me) or the quiet (the rest of you)?
Shall we all now flock to protect Shasta since the Moddess Goddess's marvelous narration surely leaves no doubt about the identity of the seer? :p

And since someone will say it aloud at some point anyway, we might as well get done with it in the first post: please be extra careful with the lynches in this game! Must avoid last-minute votes in this game.

Anyone want to start speculation about the mysterious acolyte?

[Inziladun]

So, shall we lynch the loud (me) or the quiet (the rest of you)?

Or the loud who consistently don't post anything substantive?

And since someone will say it aloud at some point anyway, we might as well get done with it in the first post: please be extra careful with the lynches in this game! Must avoid last-minute votes in this game.

It's likely I'll be voting long before DL as a rule here. It falls into my exercise time. ;)

Anyone want to start speculation about the mysterious acolyte?

We'd need at least some facts to speculate, and I don't think there are many, although an "acolyte" is generally a person of high rank, or one with fervent beliefs, I think. Xe doesn't count in the tally. Good? Evil? Neutral? Cinnamon? (Sorry, got carried away with thoughts of breakfast :))

[Nerwen]

All right, narration's up. Sorry about the delay.

–Incidentally, the Royal Executioner has yet to pick a target. The Empress is most displeased (even in the afterlife).:mad:

[Thinlómien]

We'd need at least some facts to speculate, and I don't think there are many, although an "acolyte" is generally a person of high rank, or one with fervent beliefs, I think. Xe doesn't count in the tally. Good? Evil? Neutral? Cinnamon? (Sorry, got carried away with thoughts of breakfast :)) Methinks it's an apprentice or a follower of a kind, and has something to do with religion. (I checked: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/acolyte) The narration also implies he is related to the seer and can choose his side (or at least may change sides, maybe not on his own will). So we have some kind of cursed-kind of person? An assistant of the seer who changes sides if attacked by the wolves? Ugh, sounds disastrous.


edit: xed with the Empress's ghost

[Thinlómien]

Given the recent events, I think honour would demand Shasta and I go nilp because of our failures at serving the Empress. Oh woe! :eek::D

Speaking of voting, I HATE RANDOM VOTES. THEY DON'T SERVE THE VILLAGE IN ANY WAY. DON'T MAKE THEM IF YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE ME ANGRY AND SUSPICIOUS OF YOU. Now that I have said it, I hope I can refrain from ranting about it for the rest of the game... ;) (Fyi, Eru and Nate, this is my pet peeve. Please don't freak out.)

Also, I'll most likely be voting pretty close to the DL every day, I think, as it's 2pm my time and as a student I tend to have free time in such weird hours as in the middle of the day or in the morning...

[Thinlómien]

Hmm. So I think the acolyte co-operates with the seer (I'm not sure it's wise to discuss the details) and may be turned to evil, more likely by wolves than by his/her own choice. So we should watch out for strange happenings in the narrations and generally be prepared for surprises in this game.

Now this early bird will shut up and go for lunch and then to work. You can expect me to be back in six hours or so.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Methinks it's an apprentice or a follower of a kind, and has something to do with religion. (I checked: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/acolyte) The narration also implies he is related to the seer and can choose his side (or at least may change sides, maybe not on his own will). So we have some kind of cursed-kind of person? An assistant of the seer who changes sides if attacked by the wolves? Ugh, sounds disastrous.


edit: xed with the Empress's ghost

I also got the impression that the Acolyte would be somebody who could switch sides, yes. The idea I had when reading it was that it could be something along the lines of a Seer (weaker Seer, perhaps? Not sure how exactly to define "weaker", but let's say one dream per several Nights, or not getting specific info - like only getting the ordo/special affirmation or good/evil affirmation etc, we've seen all this before). "Near as skilled as yourself in sorcerous arts" implies something like that, and "if the acolyte proves truly loyal" points to the uncertainity. Might be that the Acolyte takes the Seer's place after the Seer is killed, OR takes a Wolf's place after the first Wolf (resp. traitor) is killed, to compensate? However I am not sure if I'd believe this. The most likely possibility to me would be something like a Seer-like Gifted (as I have outlined above) who can actually choose the side. There used to be roles like that as well in other games. Basically: caring for its own survival, but can join either side. Somehow, I am slightly doubtful also about this (it would be too simple to be able to just choose if the role was really just a Seer who chooses), but it's probably the best I can think of right now. The "cursed Seer" idea of Lommy's hasn't occured to me, would be possible, though not nice. However, if it was like that, we'd probably learn about it the way that one Night suddenly there'd be no kill etc...

Anyway, perhaps further narrations will also contain more information about the Acolyte's role, at least hints like this.

Anyway... otherwise... well, I think there isn't much more to speak about right now, so at least something.

Will be around...

EDIT: X-ed with two Lommys. Ahem, you really missed that game a lot, right...

[Eönwë]

Said the Tortoise to the Mûmak
Why art thou so big?
The size of house, but e'en a louse
Can through thy deep skin dig.
What purpose is their for thy size
When small foe holds thee at bay?
For being small, thou may me chastise
But this is what I say.

Said the Mûmak to the Tortoise
Why art thou so slow?
A house thou carriest upon thy back
So thou can'st never grow.
And even when thou strayest from home
What can that shelter bring?
When the large birds may pick thee up
And drop from high on wing?

Wise old horse came wand'ring past
Alone did gallop he
Thinking 'why do they not run as well
to where they want to be?'


Note: Just got back to the computer, thought I'd posted this about 20 minutes ago, but now the mood has changed and Legate's turned up.

edit: bolded name

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm. So I think the acolyte co-operates with the seer (I'm not sure it's wise to discuss the details) and may be turned to evil, more likely by wolves than by his/her own choice. So we should watch out for strange happenings in the narrations and generally be prepared for surprises in this game.

Cooperation, yes, that's another possibility. Does not sound bad. Could be also that the Acolyte could be getting some "partial info" from the Seer or whatnot... and based on that could also choose sides... (For example: Night 1: Seer dreams of Freddy and sees him innocent, the Acolyte gets info "Seer dreamed of Freddy" or "Seer dreamed of innocent"... okay, that sounds stretched, I'm making up stuff from the top of my head, but you know, something... random...)

EDIT: x-ed with the Joker. (Or Jester... Said the Joker to the Thief...)

[Eönwë]

Might be that the Acolyte takes the Seer's place after the Seer is killed, OR takes a Wolf's place after the first Wolf (resp. traitor) is killed, to compensate?
That's what I assumed, judging by the name of the role.

On the other hand, the 'cursed' idea could also work, where if there's an attempt to Night-kill or dream the acolyte, they become that role. Or even if they're the target of the other gifteds.

On the other (metaphorical- I mean, these aren't the days of Utumno any more) hand, since the Acolyte is implied to be of a similar nature to the Seer... er... Envoy, there may be a possibility that they can dream for either side, either out of choice or through the cursed way.

[Inziladun]

Hmm. So I think the acolyte co-operates with the seer (I'm not sure it's wise to discuss the details) and may be turned to evil, more likely by wolves than by his/her own choice. So we should watch out for strange happenings in the narrations and generally be prepared for surprises in this game.

Right. Without some more clues from the narration, supported by game events, this is all guesswork.

What we can do is focus on finding the ones we know can kill us. The rest will just have to work itself out.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That's what I assumed, judging by the name of the role.

On the other hand, the 'cursed' idea could also work, where if there's an attempt to Night-kill or dream the acolyte, they become that role. Or even if they're the target of the other gifteds.

On the other (metaphorical- I mean, these aren't the days of Utumno any more) hand, since the Acolyte is implied to be of a similar nature to the Seer... er... Envoy, there may be a possibility that they can dream for either side, either out of choice or through the cursed way.
Yes, that's what I had in mind, basically. But right, as Zil says, it's all guesswork. Won't harm us to have somewhere to start, though. At least there's something to talk about. That doesn't mean we should dwell on that topic for the rest of the day (or game). But I think for the start, and since we really don't know much, it is as good topic for posting as any. Eventually, it will became worn-out (and it's already becoming, I think, we've named a fair couple of possibilities, so if people in the future don't have any more new thougts to add, I suggest leaving that be), and then it will drift away on its own and some more "actual" issue will take its place. But the Day has just started.

Right. Without some more clues from the narration, supported by game events, this is all guesswork.

What we can do is focus on finding the ones we know can kill us. The rest will just have to work itself out.

I like (insert sarcasm here) those proclamations, it is very nice and logical, but then of course comes the inevitable question: so what exactly do you mean by "finding the ones..." I mean, we are doing that, for sure, all of us (or: almost all of us, anyway). But until people start talking (probably about something else). You know, it's like the problem with the chicken and the egg... we have to start talking. - Yes. About what? - About catching Wolves. Yes. But how are we supposed to catch them when nobody started talking yet? - Well, we will, that's why we have to start talking. What should we talk about? - About catching Wolves, obviously. Okay. Let's catch Wolves. - Agreed. (silence)

Now that said, it's nothing against you in particular, Zil (even though I quoted your post) - I have experienced much stronger cries for "let's talk something!" (that said, I don't even know if that was your intention) who were annoying on top of that (and hypocritical - as such cries most often are). This is partially also kind of preemptive strike against such kind of behavior.

On a more specific topic, then - Lommy mentioned her hate for the random votes. And I must say I would agree. Of course, lot of stuff can happen and sometimes people are so puzzled that they are forced to vote randomly. Or, let me say: more randomly than they would like to. It happened to me too, last time I believe in my last game (some half a year ago, I think, or a bit less, four or five months maybe) - I felt I didn't have enough info to make a good decision, but in the end, I simply had to choose - based on something. But "total random", as in, "I'll toss a coin", I believe is total blasphemy and people should be lynched just for that. Only if you come online ten minutes before DL and haven't played all day, I could understand that (but then I probably wouldn't vote, personally, for the sake of being responsible). But otherwise you could at least try to form an opinion based on something small - and later you can defend your vote based on that. Your vote is your responsibility, and that's the main point of it - later, you can be judged based on how you have used it. Random vote has no responsibility in it, therefore, you are not accountable for it. But that means that you either don't care about the game at all, or that you don't want to be accountable for your votes - and there's only one role which does not want to be accountable for its votes: the baddies.

Enough of the long agitatory rant, I hope you got the point, for now, I will let myself rest, also in order to give people less stuff to read through. Ha, ha.

[Inziladun]

I like (insert sarcasm here) those proclamations, it is very nice and logical, but then of course comes the inevitable question: so what exactly do you mean by "finding the ones..." I mean, we are doing that, for sure, all of us (or: almost all of us, anyway). But until people start talking (probably about something else). You know, it's like the problem with the chicken and the egg... we have to start talking. - Yes. About what? - About catching Wolves. Yes. But how are we supposed to catch them when nobody started talking yet? - Well, we will, that's why we have to start talking. What should we talk about? - About catching Wolves, obviously. Okay. Let's catch Wolves. - Agreed. (silence)

I see your point.

Mine was merely that I don't think speculation over the Acolyte is all that useful at the moment (though that could change later), and efforts toward finding the wolves should be the focus.

[Boromir88]

Great. I come all the way from Far Far Harad, and now who is going to buy my lovely new stock of mumakil?

The Acolyte could be something like that one role, what was it...Mythomaniac? Assumes the role of the person he/she "dreamed." If the Acolyte isn't counted in the tally that would make the Acolyte, at the moment, neutral. That is, the Acolyte will be serving his/her own designs for the time being, and until some choice of loyalty comes (if it ever comes).

[Galadriel55]

What? No one has done this yet? You bad, bad people, talking about the Alcolyte when there are spies around!

It was Rikae. How do we know she didn't kill Her Who Once Shined Brighter Than The Sun before closing the door again and putting up all that show?

It was Eruhen. Eunuchs are never up to any good.

It was Nog. Hear how he spoke at the palace doors? Must show respect, that one.

It was Inziladun and Boro. They have the means to bribe someone close to the Empress.

It was Lommy. She posted first.

It was Shasta. He's the one who spent a night by the Empress' bedchamber! He could have sneaked in and done the deed anytime during the night.

It was Greenie. Mayhaps she had a really poisonous snake bite Her For Whom The Stars Once Shined. And then stabbed Her, just to make sure, you know.

It was Bom. You never know with them beggars!

It was Sally, Steve, and Nate. They look oh-so-innocent (aka I can't think of a good accusation), but probably they are the most dangerous ones.

It was Pitch and Legate. Is it a coincidence that these two arrive at our Empress' court, and some days later She is murdered?

Lottie is clearly the alcolyte. She's a sorcerer's apprentice. Makes sense, no?

I could not have done the foul deed. If I was the murderer, that would have meant that I foresaw my role in choosing the occupation, which would imply that I'm a Seer. I can't be both spy/wolf and seer at the same time!


~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~


I add my voice to those who prefer not to waste time speculating about the Alcolyte, but there isn't much else to talk about, so what choice do we have, until some better idea enters someone's mind?

[Pitchwife]

So with no better security than this, you southron Barbarians think you can tackle Gondor? Pathetic. You'll need all the help you can get from the Dark Lord. [/IC]

I see there's some speculation about the Acolyte, as was to be expected. The narration seems to indicate that they somehow partake in the Envoy's investigation, like Lommy and Legate have guessed, and I think there's also a hint in the term itself: an acolyte (according to wikipedia) is an assistant to the priest and may be aspiring to priesthood himself but hasn't attained it yet - which is why I think they can't dream on their own, but rather are let in on the Envoy's dreams somehow, more or less like Legate has suggested.

Another possibility would be that the acolyte doesn't have any powers to start with but gains them during the game - possibly when they pick their allegiance (if they do that by choice). Or maybe they inherit the Envoy's dreams (and/or power of dreaming?) in case of his death? That would of course be shiny in case we manage to lose our Seer early.

On the other hand, there's clearly a possibility that the Acolyte may turn, or be turned, to the dark side and use their powers, whichever they may be, against us - which is why I don't quite get Lommy's doubts whether "it's wise to discuss the details". I mean, why shouldn't we discuss what we may be up against? OK, it's all speculation at this point, but what's the harm in speculation? It's not like anybody is going to say "I think Finnegan's the Envoy and Freddy is the Acolyte".

(x-ed with Legate and Zil)

EDIT: and Boro and G55. Stop frowning.

[Galadriel55]

which is why I don't quite get Lommy's doubts whether "it's wise to discuss the details". I mean, why shouldn't we discuss what we may be up against?

Yeah, but the wolves are also listening. Personally, I don't want to give them ideas about how to strengthen their side.

(x-ed with Legate and Zil)

:(

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, I know I promised to have a break for a while, but now that people came and said something... and it will be just short, I promise.

I see your point.

Mine was merely that I don't think speculation over the Acolyte is all that useful at the moment (though that could change later), and efforts toward finding the wolves should be the focus.
Sure. That was what I gathered. However, as you have seen in my point, it is very nice that you are saying that, but what do you mean by "focus on finding Wolves". Saying "we should be finding Wolves" and finishing the post with that is probably the worst thing one can do. "What you are doing is not exactly what we should be doing, but I am not doing anything else either, I merely dismiss what you are doing but don't do anything new myself." I would therefore urge (if it wasn't clear enough from my previous posts) everyone who says "we shouldn't focus on this and that" not only to say what we should focus on (catching wolves, we ALL know that, of course, once again see what I said in my previous post, what else are we here for? Does anybody seriously think we are here to discuss Acolytes???), but MOST OF ALL to actually DO something, too, and not just talk how things *theoretically* should be done.

The Acolyte could be something like that one role, what was it...Mythomaniac? Assumes the role of the person he/she "dreamed." If the Acolyte isn't counted in the tally that would make the Acolyte, at the moment, neutral. That is, the Acolyte will be serving his/her own designs for the time being, and until some choice of loyalty comes (if it ever comes).
And just as remark to the subject of the Acolyte, this would actually sound rather logical, out of the things we've mentioned this far.



EDIT: x-ed with Pitch and further

[A Little Green]

Almost did a Kath and forgot we're starting already.. :rolleyes:

Anyway - I don't think I have much to add to the talk about the acolyte. As Inzil said, it's only speculation at this point - but incidentally, I'm really happy we had it as it cut the banter to a minimum. Legate raised a valid point about Inzil, and Gal's bantery post looks odd between serious ones, but that's more or less all I have at the moment.

[Bom Tombadillo]

*crawls into the discussion by way of wiggling his nose* Alms? Alms for the septuplegic? No? What about the arctophilic? Oh, fine. *grumbles* Stingy [insert obscure Haradrin invective here]. [/IC]

So. I'm two hours later than I expected, but there's not too much chatter yet.

Now. I think all the speculation about the Acolyte is a bit pointless - there's absolutely no way of knowing, yet, what (if any) theory might be correct. That said, G55 is right - there's naught else to talk about, and it might at least lead to something interesting.

On that note, I'm going to disappear until I can think of something interesting myself. *waves*

[Nogrod]

But until people start talking (probably about something else). You know, it's like the problem with the chicken and the egg... we have to start talking. - Yes. About what? - About catching Wolves. Yes. But how are we supposed to catch them when nobody started talking yet? - Well, we will, that's why we have to start talking. What should we talk about? - About catching Wolves, obviously. Okay. Let's catch Wolves. - Agreed. (silence)Exactly. As long as there is some even half-serious discussion one can start forming opinions, looking for possible motives behind the talk etc. So talking about the Acolyte serves as a subject in the beginning as any subject. We'll get into the discussion of each other soon enough, I hope. But not without something to discuss first (unless someone starts throwing strong random suspicions around - which I kind of dislike even if it sometimes actually works).

So putting my two cents to the topic. I think we have yet another possibility, which is the age-old "birthday dreamer" role. There a person picks someone fex. on N3 and gets the role that person has. That might just be enough "dreaming" to justify the parallel with the seer in the narration, and would also account for the randomness of the alignment of the role in question.

But whatever the role is, it looks like it would include a possibility for change in alignment or gaining a gift, whether chosen by the person or happening on her/him. The consequences would be radically different in the two cases.

But "total random", as in, "I'll toss a coin", I believe is total blasphemy and people should be lynched just for that.
...
Your vote is your responsibility, and that's the main point of it - later, you can be judged based on how you have used it. Random vote has no responsibility in it, therefore, you are not accountable for it.I think my position with this is quite well established among people who have played with me during the years... :)

I would put it in a bit more stronger terms, though. Declaring your vote to be random, you declare you are not going to stand behind your vote - and that no one should have a say in why you voted the way you did as that was "random". The point here being that "declaration of randomness" with which this sneaking away from responsibility happens.

Like Legate says, even if you have very little or nothing to go on with, you always have impressions, gut feelings etc. to work with. It's only the wolves who need to come up with invented grounds for their votes. And I do think here lies a big difference between goodies and baddies.

We all have these feelings of initial trust or suspicion because we don't know who is good and who is bad. But the baddies do not have them as they know things already. So whereas we can be honest with our feelings the baddies need to invent them every time they try to argue for their "suspicions" or tell about their "feelings"... (which they don't have). So accepting random-voting only aids the baddies and thus should be strongly disapproved, with the threwat of lynching I would say.

Having that kind of mood around is one of the best ways to force the wolves into the open with arguments (which are by definition always false). And that is what we need to do.


EDIT: Uh, did I write that post over half an hour? So X'd with a host...

[Inziladun]

Sure. That was what I gathered. However, as you have seen in my point, it is very nice that you are saying that, but what do you mean by "focus on finding Wolves". Saying "we should be finding Wolves" and finishing the post with that is probably the worst thing one can do. "What you are doing is not exactly what we should be doing, but I am not doing anything else either, I merely dismiss what you are doing but don't do anything new myself." I would therefore urge (if it wasn't clear enough from my previous posts) everyone who says "we shouldn't focus on this and that" not only to say what we should focus on (catching wolves, we ALL know that, of course, once again see what I said in my previous post, what else are we here for? Does anybody seriously think we are here to discuss Acolytes???), but MOST OF ALL to actually DO something, too, and not just talk how things *theoretically* should be done.

Yes, I know. All I meant was that, while I don't think the subject of the Acolyte is worthless (if for no other purpose as a conversation starter) it doesn't need to be the focus. The Acolyte discussions can only be taken so far right now.

[Loslote]

That would of course be shiny in case we manage to lose our Seer early.

Manage to? Is this something you're hoping will happen? :eek:;)

[Inziladun]

This kerfluffle over the Acolyte does serve another purpose, I see. Interesting.

[Rikae]

It seems to me that with the relatively high number of wolves in this village, the acolyte is more likely helpful than harmful. Thing is, from the description, the two possibilities that come to mind first for me: a sort of seer-werebear and a seer-cobbler (partial seer or weak seer)- would complicate matters more for the village. Of course a normal werebear would reveal itself by toMorrow. Anyway, there's too much confusion: though I agree with Legate on the importance of simply starting conversation, it's time we moved on. In that vein, I don't much care for Inzil and Bom's empty posts, Gal's banter... which does look odd... and Green's post that points out its oddness. Yep, I contradict myself, I contain multitudes, etc.

EDIT: X'd with Inzil and fixed typo.

[Loslote]

The Acolyte conversation does have its uses. We can look back at what everyone said and their reactions to other people's posts and start from there. What doesn't help is ranting about random votes. We all know that random votes are annoying, useless, and even detrimental to the village. We didn't need three people to rant about it in order to figure this out. The rants take up post space, making the ranters look like they're posting a lot, but they're very safe in that no one will argue with them, and they can't tell us anything about the poster or about people responding to them since the only way to respond to them is another rant saying the same thing or a rant saying that random votes aren't that bad - which I can't see anyone actually posting. It had its purpose among the first couple of posts, when it was basically the same, practically, as banter, but we've moved past that by this point. So...yeah, stop with the ranting about points that were never in dispute, please.

[Inziladun]

Anyway, there's too much confusion: though I agree with Legate on the importance of simply starting conversation, it's time we moved on. In that vein, I don't much care for Inzil and Bom's empty posts, Gal's banter... which does look odd... and Green's post that points out its oddness. Yep, I contradict myself, I contain multitudes, etc.

Ah. You agree with me, but you don't like my "empty" posts. Makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

[Galadriel55]

This looks like the kind of Day One that is spent discussing what should be done on Day Ones.

I know I'm being a hypocrite, since I don't have any better ideas myself. So far nothing of weight arose. I'll post here first thing if I get some innovative thought, I promise. :)

So far the only thing that stood out even a milimeter for me is the exchange between Zil and Legate. While I understand where both of them are comming from, they are persistent.

Edit: xed since Lottie at #25. Did it really take me that long to write this?

[Eönwë]

Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion. While the former discussion lets people think about the game ahead and shows people's attitudes now, as well as maybe being interesting to look at in future, this discussion about whether we should discuss it is bad because it's giving everyone a place to hide. Legate replied first, but now everyone's repeating the same thing (which I thought had been general consensus for ages anyway- it was when I last played) about any discussion being better than no discussion.

I'm not saying that Inzil or Legate are bad, but people are too keen to bandwaggon onto that discussion and say nothing of value, while looking active and helpful.

But I'm curious, Zil, what did you have in mind?

edit: fixed grammar

[Rikae]

On discussing random votes... Lommy first mentioned it (in ALL CAPS) without taking much space for it, and Legate later elaborated on it a great deal, and then Nog rehashed it as well. Thing is, Legate and Nog are pretty wordy guys at any rate and I don't think they were hurting for posting material so much as having a habit of posting on (almost) every topic that comes to mind. If someone were posting exclusively random-votes warnings and threats, I might agree with you Lottie - or if, from what I'd seen in the past, I shared your optimism about everyone refraining from declarations of randomness without such warnings.

Inzil, as I said, I agree with Legate. Posts that demand people work on catching wolves, rather than work on it themselves, are empty posts.

EDIT: X'd with Galadriel & Steve

[Eönwë]

And I just realised that I missed out Lottie's post, where she says what I said about the acolyte discussion about the random vote discussion. And yet, ironically, she says that the acolyte discussion is useful and explains why, when even more people have just been repeating the same points about that over and over again.

[Loslote]

On discussing random votes... Lommy first mentioned it (in ALL CAPS) without taking much space for it, and Legate later elaborated on it a great deal, and then Nog rehashed it as well. Thing is, Legate and Nog are pretty wordy guys at any rate and I don't think they were hurting for posting material so much as having a habit of posting on (almost) every topic that comes to mind.

I think Lommy's post is understandable - it was at the very beginning of the Day and it was more useful than banter, which was the other option at that point. But just because Legate and Nog are typically wordy doesn't mean Legate had to elaborate on that to such great extent, and it definitely doesn't mean Nog has to post the exact same thing as Legate already has.

[Boromir88]

This looks like the kind of Day One that is spent discussing what should be done on Day Ones.


When isn't that the Day One? :rolleyes:

I have a set-in-stone Day One routine.

1. Make banter and joke about any previous banter that occured before arrival.

2. Comment on game dynamics, and possibly unique situations. Our departed Empress left the Acolyte role vague. While it's rather fruitless to discuss the specifics of the role, it's nice to get some ideas kicking around, and that's really all I've seen from the Acolyte posts. It's a mysterious role, it's begging "hey use me as Day 1 conversation ice breaker!" Like banter posts, it may carry on a bit too long, but there shouldn't be a set schedule. I mean, just because someone comes in later doesn't mean he/she doesn't have the right to share opinions on the Acolyte.

Eventually these types of things, like banter, and discussing an unknown role weave their way out of the focus entirely by themselves. I mean what we were 2 hours into the day, with 4 people having posted, and Inzil was already declaring to move on from the Acolyte talk? As Legate said, great let us stop conversing and kicking around ideas about a mysterious role. :rolleyes:

3. Find out who I like/trust. (No one at the moment). Find out who I'd prefer not to be lynched yet (Legate and Inzil top the list). And everyone else is thrown in with not enough of an impression yet/could vote for today.

Like all Day 1s, we leave today without a crippling seer/gifted lynching (and because of these rules, no multi-lynching, please) we'll be ok.

I should also say because the DL doesn't fit my schedule well, I'll most of the time probably have to vote 5-6 hours early. So, whoever is able to keep around at the DL...with double-lynching a factor, please stop this trend of "keep my vote until the last possible second" vote flurry.

[Rikae]

If you're looking for people who aren't making useful posts, Lottie, I wonder: what do you think of Galadriel55?

[Loslote]

If you're looking for people who aren't making useful posts, Lottie, I wonder: what do you think of Galadriel55?

This caught my eye when she posted it:

This looks like the kind of Day One that is spent discussing what should be done on Day Ones.

Considering that this is actually one of the more productive Day Ones in recent memory, this feels like G55 trying to stall useful discussion by writing it off as "oh, well, this Day is doomed to be non-productive, too bad".

Other than that, though, nothing she's said really stood out to me.

[Pitchwife]

I can't be both spy/wolf and seer at the same time!
Yes you can - if you're a turned acolyte:p. Maybe.

Yeah, but the wolves are also listening. Personally, I don't want to give them ideas about how to strengthen their side.

I see the point, but not so much the danger. At this stage, our hypotheses are most likely to be off the mark or at best incomplete, and in the end it comes down to how the Acolyte really works, not how we or the wolves think we can use them. In the meantime, I'm sure the wolves don't want to give us ideas either, so they (or some of them) might be trying to avoid the discussion. See my point?

I think we have yet another possibility, which is the age-old "birthday dreamer" role. There a person picks someone fex. on N3 and gets the role that person has.
The birthday dreamer I remember just got a dream on a predetermined Night, without any role change involved (right, Lottie?). Otherwise, this is basically the same as Boro's mythomaniac, which looks like a coherent theory to me.

Manage to? Is this something you're hoping will happen?
Yes. I pray for it every night before I go to bed. Don't you?

Now, to get down to business, the most interesting thing that has happened so far is between Legate and Zil. Legate is of course right that saying "But we have to catch wolves" is a) easy and b) doesn't achieve anything in actually catching them [plus c) it's more or less saying "look how determined I am to catch wolves, I can't possibly be one"], and also in criticizing Zil for keeping aloof of the Acolyte discussion without suggesting an alternative.

The problem with this is that Zil plunging headlong into a D1 discussion with arguments left right & center is about as likely to happen as Bom starting D1 with a Nogrodesque rallying speech. He has this style of hanging back, observing and biding his time early in the game, and whenever I've suspected him because of it I've been wrong.

That said, Legate's criticism of him looks innocent to me (and the vehemence with which he pursued it just feels un-faked), but I don't like how people regurgitate it now and pile onto an easy suspicion (people meaning Rikae and Eönwë - especially Eönwë who complains about 'people' [no names given] 'bandwaggoning on that discussion' while doing it himself).


EDIT: x-ed from #34 down.

[Galadriel55]

If you're looking for people who aren't making useful posts, Lottie, I wonder: what do you think of Galadriel55?

This post has made me very angry. Yes, angry. This way of saying it infuriates me. You could have just said "G55 didn't post anything on content", which would be more or less true. But the way you're saying it is more like "oh look Lottie, you are against people who talk banter and here's G55 posting along whom you haven't analyzed yet. Wanna say that particularily she is useless?"

Yes, I'm saying this despite the risk of flying up on people's suspicion lists. This is what I think of you, and I'm not afraid to say it. Let's all decide that G55 is not posting anything useless, but let that come from someone else's mouth, eh? If you suspect me, say so. If you don't like the way I post, say so. If I'm on the top of your lynch list, say so. Don't ask Lottie to say it for you, or talk to her as though it's a private conversation between you and her! :mad:


*deep breath*

/rant.



I see the point, but not so much the danger. At this stage, our hypotheses are most likely to be off the mark or at best incomplete, and in the end it comes down to how the Acolyte really works, not how we or the wolves think we can use them. In the meantime, I'm sure the wolves don't want to give us ideas either, so they (or some of them) might be trying to avoid the discussion. See my point?

Ah, yes. Haven't thought of that.

[Eruhen]

Grief for the death of our fair Empress has consumed me, along with preparations for her pyre. Vengeance, however, is not far off. Let the Northern devils beware! [/IC]

In all honesty, though, Real Life has kinda gotten in the way so far, plus I have nothing of content to say. While the speculation on the Acolyte is enlightening in its own way, for now I'm simply content to sit and watch.

Just wanted people to know that I'm here and paying attention. Now, back to work...

[Galadriel55]

Just to clarify my feelings about Rikae: I am not saying that I think she's a wolf/spy; in any situation I can't claim such so early on based on so little. I am just mad, because of the way she phrased her question. I might have gotten carried away in expressing my feelings, but they are what they are and I'm not gonna hide them, even if someone might not like them, and some 4 people would gladly use use them against me.

[Rikae]

Pitch, just because Legate said it first does not make it an insincere suspicion on my part. If it seems "easy", that's because there is fairly little to examine at this point (note, though, his response to me where he assumes I agreed with him - apparently he didn't read my post very thoroughly but rather jumped to self-defense right away).
I'm well aware of the risk of lynching an innocent who happens to look "odd" on day one. In fact, I'd suggest it may be more logical to leave Inzil alone for toDay precisely because he has made himself a target.

Galadriel, I'm sorry if I offended you. I can be insensitive at times. However, if you'll look again at my post, it implies just as much about Lottie and her consistency as it does about you, and as for If you don't like the way I post, say so.... I did.

[A Little Green]

I meant to start this post by asking if there was something I missed that would explain the three rants about the evil of random votes, but since I don't seem to be the only baffled one, I gather there wasn't. Not sure if it means anything, it probably doesn't, but that conversation seems both uncalled-for and overdone.

I'm starting to notice a rather odd pattern concerning people's attitudes towards the back-and-forth between Legate and Zil. Looking at eg. the following quotes:
So far the only thing that stood out even a milimeter for me is the exchange between Zil and Legate. While I understand where both of them are comming from, they are persistent.
Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion. While the former discussion lets people think about the game ahead and shows people's attitudes now, as well as maybe being interesting to look at in future, this discussion about whether we should discuss it is bad because it's giving everyone a place to hide. Legate replied first, but now everyone's repeating the same thing (which I thought had been general consensus for ages anyway- it was when I last played) about any discussion being better than no discussion.

I'm not saying that Inzil or Legate are bad, but people are too keen to bandwaggon onto that discussion and say nothing of value, while looking active and helpful.

But I'm curious, Zil, what did you have in mind?
Eventually these types of things, like banter, and discussing an unknown role weave their way out of the focus entirely by themselves. I mean what we were 2 hours into the day, with 4 people having posted, and Inzil was already declaring to move on from the Acolyte talk? As Legate said, great let us stop conversing and kicking around ideas about a mysterious role.

3. Find out who I like/trust. (No one at the moment). Find out who I'd prefer not to be lynched yet (Legate and Inzil top the list).
Now, to get down to business, the most interesting thing that has happened so far is between Legate and Zil. Legate is of course right that saying "But we have to catch wolves" is a) easy and b) doesn't achieve anything in actually catching them [plus c) it's more or less saying "look how determined I am to catch wolves, I can't possibly be one"], and also in criticizing Zil for keeping aloof of the Acolyte discussion without suggesting an alternative.

The problem with this is that Zil plunging headlong into a D1 discussion with arguments left right & center is about as likely to happen as Bom starting D1 with a Nogrodesque rallying speech. He has this style of hanging back, observing and biding his time early in the game, and whenever I've suspected him because of it I've been wrong.

That said, Legate's criticism of him looks innocent to me (and the vehemence with which he pursued it just feels un-faked), but I don't like how people regurgitate it now and pile onto an easy suspicion (people meaning Rikae and Eönwë - especially Eönwë who complains about 'people' [no names given] 'bandwaggoning on that discussion' while doing it himself).What strikes me is that everyone of them is doing more or less what Pitch here describes - himself included! That is, keeping the Zil-Legate-issue in the spotlight while at the same time implying that it isn't really relevant, or that both two look innocent. I don't know if I have anything here, but it stood out to me.

I have a cheesecake and a birthday present to finish, but before I move on to either of those - Gal: a hug. That is all.


EDIT: x-ed with Rikae

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, nice enough time for me to actually start getting impressions about people, which is especially welcome because I often have problems with Day 1s (well, who doesn't). This far however, many of them are impressions that have nothing to do with the actual suspicion of some person: some of them are more like questions about something which I do not understand about the person and it does not have to be evil or good, only strange - and therefore I would like to see it explained.

People who seem genuine to me this far ("genuine" does not necessarily equal "innocent", but at least this far I have no reason to suspect those people):

Rikae - looks straightforward, I can follow her line of thoughts, no problem, does not seem to be manipulative in any way etc.

Nog - looks like his classic self, this far same as above. Although I would like to read more from him in the future, but I am sure there will be something, so I don't worry about that.

Eruhen - not very much, but just from the small post of hers, the feeling is okay. Of course, that might completely turn around once she posts something of substance. This is more like the first impression (and therefore I am not putting that much weight onto it, but if e.g. there were no more posts from her today, this is where I am).

Btw: I haven't been playing for a while, but - I assume we don't have any complete newbies in this game? At least I assume it would be seen on the admin thread...

G55 - I am not saying she could not be questioned, however, from the general behavior I tend to see her as not pretending anything, e.g. her first post just being that of a person who would like to contribute but honestly cannot think of anything clever (compare with: Inzil, below).

Eönwë - seems also more or less genuine to me this far. Will wait for further posting, but up to this point, no problem, nothing suspicious or awkward.

And here we are sliding a bit among the "decision still has to be made..." kind of people...

Lommy - well, to be honest, she could be fake. However, I can relate to what she says - the only question is whether it isn't calculated; but I hope to see more from her.

Boro, Pitch - well, they don't look any suspicious this far, but there is still a lot to determine. I will wait. The more, hmm, complicated players, the more time the analysis requires :)

Somewhat fishy:

(Originally, I had Greenie here, because her post initially left me with the impression that she seemed to "accuse" or try to "draw accusation" from what I said about Zil and her remark about G55. However, on second reading - sort of "reading it in different tone" in different situation, it looks absolutely normal. So basically, I wait to read more from her.)

Inzil - This is not in fact suspicion (it's more like that what I've talked about in the beginning of this post), I simply don't understand: repeating this "we should focus on..." argument, but even after saying he understands me (which I believe he does), he fails to understand(??? can't think of other reason) that he is doing nothing!!! I mean, to post one post where you say "we should focus on..." and not adding anything, fine. But when somebody mentions that it is not very productive to just say it and do nothing else - and especially if you actually say you acknowledge what that person had said - and still keep only doing the same thing, posting the one-liners about the same thing... and you obviously are around and have time to post, so why not do more? I can't think of a reason why Zil is doing that, being he innocent or not. So, Zil: Why, since you have been around for several hours, you did not manage to actually post anything but only the same line four times over? Since you were so keen on starting hunting the Wolves??? That is a genuine question. I am puzzled, honestly.

Lottie - This is also more like the above case. In fact, it is only the sort of a bit "accusatory behavior" she has which makes me raise eyebrows (but nothing more) and then I don't completely understand the "saying random votes are bad is useless" - I mean, why not? I think it's more substantial than Acolyte speculation, after all; and no, of course nobody expects people to start defending random votes, however, there are people among us who CAN very well cast random votes, and the point of this (at least from my part, but I am rather certain it was also Lommy's and Nog's intention, since that seems obvious) was to warn those people and to prevent random votes from actually happening. But yeah, whatever.

I think I left out somebody - I think Bom also posted - but I got absolutely nothing from that post, so waiting for something more. Please, more posts!

EDIT: x-ed with Greenie

[Galadriel55]

@Legate: no, there are no complete newbies this time.

[Boromir88]

Just to clarify my feelings about Rikae: I am not saying that I think she's a wolf/spy; in any situation I can't claim such so early on based on so little. I am just mad, because of the way she phrased her question. I might have gotten carried away in expressing my feelings, but they are what they are and I'm not gonna hide them, even if someone might not like them, and some 4 people would gladly use use them against me.

I was actually going to tell Rikae, I don't think she's played with you before and your early posts are a standard G55. Granted, that means you would also do it as a wolf, but I appreciate the variety you bring to the table. How dragging and teeth-gritting would a village full of Legates, Nogs, and Boros be?

Your reaction though, it was unexpected seeing from you, because it was like reading one of my rants. "If you suspect me then suspect me!" And really over something that's normal, "Hey Rikae, what do you think about sally?" I can understand boiling over frustrations, but that was an immediate, highly-dramatic reaction.

And this:

I am not saying that I think she's a wolf/spy; in any situation I can't claim such so early on based on so little. I am just mad, because of the way she phrased her question.

"If you suspect her, than say so," but honestly, you're just using the semantics over question-phrasing to defend your reaction as perhaps over-the-top, but an un-wolvish one. So, I'll say it. Looks suspicious.


What strikes me is that everyone of them is doing more or less what Pitch here describes - himself included! That is, keeping the Zil-Legate-issue in the spotlight while at the same time implying that it isn't really relevant, or that both two look innocent. I don't know if I have anything here, but it stood out to me.


It's truly not WW until there's at least one Agan-Boro dance, right? :p

Although, I'd hardly say Legate and Inzil were as stubborn and aggressive as I was being with Agan, certainly as far as early day activity they will be getting the majority of the attention. Good observation, and what to make of it is the question. And now, add Greenie to the list of those who I'd prefer not to see lynched today.

[Inziladun]

Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion. While the former discussion lets people think about the game ahead and shows people's attitudes now, as well as maybe being interesting to look at in future, this discussion about whether we should discuss it is bad because it's giving everyone a place to hide. Legate replied first, but now everyone's repeating the same thing (which I thought had been general consensus for ages anyway- it was when I last played) about any discussion being better than no discussion.

And I was fine with the discussion at first, but what I didn't want was for people to keep speculating about the Acolyte indefinitely.

I'm not saying that Inzil or Legate are bad, but people are too keen to bandwaggon onto that discussion and say nothing of value, while looking active and helpful.

Indeed...

But I'm curious, Zil, what did you have in mind?

Since it's already going on, I see no need to spell it out.

Now, to get down to business, the most interesting thing that has happened so far is between Legate and Zil. Legate is of course right that saying "But we have to catch wolves" is a) easy and b) doesn't achieve anything in actually catching them [plus c) it's more or less saying "look how determined I am to catch wolves, I can't possibly be one"], and also in criticizing Zil for keeping aloof of the Acolyte discussion without suggesting an alternative.

See above. Once people left off guessing about the Acolyte, the alternative began to come to the forefront. I may seem cryptic, but it really is pretty clear.

That said, Legate's criticism of him looks innocent to me (and the vehemence with which he pursued it just feels un-faked), but I don't like how people regurgitate it now and pile onto an easy suspicion (people meaning Rikae and Eönwë - especially Eönwë who complains about 'people' [no names given] 'bandwaggoning on that discussion' while doing it himself).

Unless Legate is a baddie smelling an easy lynch. However, I do agree that others are more worrisome than he.

x/d with G55 and Boro

[Eruhen]

Just poking in to correct a misconception: Eruhen is a he. Named Phil.

That's all.

[Nogrod]

for now I'm simply content to sit and watch.

Just wanted people to know that I'm here and paying attention. Now, back to work...Am I right in assuming that Eruhen is playing her/his first game here? If that is the case, I will not wish to vote for her/him toDay, but I would like to give her/him an advice: even if the way you post isn't more suspicious than not, it is deeply annoying and doesn't help a bit. And even if laying low behind the "talkers" is generally more safe for a wolf than being the talk of the town, it can backfire as a plan as well. And we rest would very much like to hear what you think (or what you would wish us to think that you think) and not just nod for "yes, s/he's paying attention, great!". :rolleyes:

Happily most of the people have been playing differently from Eruhen, and as someone already noted, this looks like one of the most reasonable D1's in a long time. I'll try to come up with a list of thoughts in the coming few hours (Champion's League football match between Napoli and Chelsea starts in a moment and will take part of my attention to be sure). And I should have ample time after that...

Just a few short comments on recent debates and posts,

Galadriel looked a bit whimsy to begin with but her defence of herself looks pretty genuine.

Lottie may be trying to do her best to find something (anything) suspicious in which case she should be honoured for what she does, but then again I'm not too comfortable with the way she has acted thus far (I'll read her more closely later to try and see whether my spine-reaction has any merit or not).

I think Greenie might be up to something with her suspicion on the behaviour of some with the Legate - Zil -discussion.

Something bothers me with Pitch. There was something early on and now this latest discussion Greenie pointed out... I hope I can say something about what it is when I'm back.



This must be a record game in what comes to people playing against what they themselves declare is reasonable ... and being conscious of that so far as to admit it! :D


EDIT: Okay, Eruhen is no first-timer then = X'd from that post onwards.

EDIT2: And Eruhen is a he. Thanks.

[Galadriel55]

I was actually going to tell Rikae, I don't think she's played with you before and your early posts are a standard G55.

We've been wolves together in Foley's game. I don't think we were together in other games.

It's truly not WW until there's at least one Agan-Boro dance, right? :p

A Dance With Lions.




Zil's last post makes him look more innocent than not. He's making sense.

Plus, if he's a wolf, I'd imagine he would have let the Alcolyte speculation run its course instead of jumping into the spotlight himself.

Edit: xed since Zil

[Thinlómien]

On the other hand, there's clearly a possibility that the Acolyte may turn, or be turned, to the dark side and use their powers, whichever they may be, against us - which is why I don't quite get Lommy's doubts whether "it's wise to discuss the details". I mean, why shouldn't we discuss what we may be up against? OK, it's all speculation at this point, but what's the harm in speculation? It's not like anybody is going to say "I think Finnegan's the Envoy and Freddy is the Acolyte".Well, just I managed to come up with some stuff I hope the wolves didn't/wouldn't come up with, so I don't want to post everything I was thinking about. We don't want to give the wolves ideas how to abuse the Acolyte role, or construct a basis they can later build on to make their own moves, do we? That's the only thing I was after - if you have something to say that is more good for village than for the wolves, do say it. I haven't thought this out 100%, I'm just being cautious about what I say aloud (having once or twice been a sort of Captain Obvious and helped wolves that way).

The random-vote crusade confuses me. I started about them just to say something, kind of as a banter or, like I said back then, to avoid talking about it for the rest of the game. I know Legate and Nogrod are strongly against random votes too, but it surprises me it became such an issue without any random votes (or any votes at all) being cast yet. I would like to make something out of this (just to be sharp and draw conclusions), but it might be just their wordy selves wanting to rant about something. :D

Speaking of which...
I think Lommy's post is understandable - it was at the very beginning of the Day and it was more useful than banter, which was the other option at that point.Well to be honest, it was as much banter as useful, I was kind of parodising the habit of saying pseudo useful stuff in the beginning of Day1 and acting as Captain Obvious.

The thing that caught my attention this far the most was the odd case of Lottie and Zil going against Pitch for saying "in case we manage to lynch our seer early". I mean, come on, that was clearly sarcastic phrasing! I'm not sure which is worse, Lottie pointing it out as a suspicious passage, or Zil implying it's a good point. (Unless Zil was sarcastic too? or referring to something else? I'm talking about #26)

Next: seeing who I xed with and a summary of sorts...


edit: xed with everyone after Boro

[Eönwë]

I meant to start this post by asking if there was something I missed that would explain the three rants about the evil of random votes, but since I don't seem to be the only baffled one, I gather there wasn't. Not sure if it means anything, it probably doesn't, but that conversation seems both uncalled-for and overdone. So three people saying they don't like random votes is bad, but three people saying that they don't like people complaining about random votes is fine?

What strikes me is that everyone of them is doing more or less what Pitch here describes - himself included! That is, keeping the Zil-Legate-issue in the spotlight while at the same time implying that it isn't really relevant, or that both two look innocent.
That's not what I was saying though. I was saying that their discussion is important because of its effects, namely the bandwaggoning others.


Are all of these really necessary? (Note: all underlining mine)
I add my voice to those who prefer not to waste time speculating about the Alcolyte, but there isn't much else to talk about, so what choice do we have, until some better idea enters someone's mind?
As Inzil said, it's only speculation at this point - but incidentally, I'm really happy we had it as it cut the banter to a minimum.
Now. I think all the speculation about the Acolyte is a bit pointless - there's absolutely no way of knowing, yet, what (if any) theory might be correct. That said, G55 is right - there's naught else to talk about, and it might at least lead to something interesting.
Exactly. As long as there is some even half-serious discussion one can start forming opinions, looking for possible motives behind the talk etc. So talking about the Acolyte serves as a subject in the beginning as any subject. We'll get into the discussion of each other soon enough, I hope. But not without something to discuss first (unless someone starts throwing strong random suspicions around - which I kind of dislike even if it sometimes actually works).
The Acolyte conversation does have its uses. We can look back at what everyone said and their reactions to other people's posts and start from there.

On the other hand, considering that all of these except for Lottie's were posted before Inzil's:
This kerfluffle over the Acolyte does serve another purpose, I see. Interesting. They don't look as bad as they could. But still, there's definitely overworking of the same point over and over again. Basically, Legate had already said it all in his first post on the matter, but because Inzil still argued back, I suppose they were justified in it, just not to that extent. So I rescind some of my suspicion. And I'm wondering what Inzil thought Legate was getting at before that post if not the same point everyone was belabouring to such an extent until then.


And this still means that Lottie looks bandwaggony, and without a good excuse, since it was definitely and definitively resolved by that point, considering that everyone present except Pitchwife and Boro (on which note, Boro has actually said very little of actual substance so far) had voiced their opinion that any discussion was better than no discussion.

Though the way G55 and Bom phrase their point, i.e. "it's basically pointless, but..." don't seem that great either.


edit: x-ed since Legate's list.

[Rikae]

Now Inzil, come out and claim what you're trying to claim so we can all see how implausible it really is! :p

[satansaloser2005]

What is this madness?!

No, seriously, I need to read this all on my laptop so I can make more sense of all the ranting and such. I will be here more (read, at all) toDay, but I'm still at work and I have a busy evening, so please bear (or bare, if you really must) with me. I'll be back later, but I hate being resounding silence, even if I don't presently have anything to say. That will change this evening.

Or, as they say in Limerick....

Miss Sally was checking the thread
And on it nothing she said
For she had no time
To argue or rhyme
Lest Sally end up truly dead

[Inziladun]

The thing that caught my attention this far the most was the odd case of Lottie and Zil going against Pitch for saying "in case we manage to lynch our seer early". I mean, come on, that was clearly sarcastic phrasing! I'm not sure which is worse, Lottie pointing it out as a suspicious passage, or Zil implying it's a good point. (Unless Zil was sarcastic too? or referring to something else? I'm talking about #26)

Pardon? I don't think I mentioned that bit from Pitch at all.

[Bom Tombadillo]

Hmm. Both Rikae and G55 look innocent to me. 'course, G55 always looks innocent to me (I don't really know why . . .).

The (apparently - I frequently forget to look at names and end up with a sense of what a controversy is about, but not who :o) Legate-Inzil thing is a bit more interesting. I need to reread the whole discussion, but don't really have the time at the moment. *sigh*

[Thinlómien]

Boromir88 - I've been a bit more careful about judging him recently because I don't think I'm as good at reading him as I used to be (or then he's got better at lying ;)), but this far nothing neither alarming nor especially trust-inspiring.

Sally - we needs one to banter around, methinks. (Not that I generally want banter, but Sally-banter is an essential part of the ww experince and I haven't played in a while.)

Galadriel55 - seems honest enough, but her points are a little weird. Merits watching, I guess.

Shasta - no data yet.

Steve - is under my radar.

Pomegranate - no data yet.

A Little Green - this far seems pretty innocent. Sharp as usual. (Hihi, reminds me of good ol' times when she wasn't a 'downer yet and Nog kept telling me she'd make a brilliant ww player because she's so smart. Awww.)

Rikae - pokes at people, makes points... seems innocent enough right now, but I don't want to judge her yet.

Eruhen - under the radar with Steve.

Pitchwife - makes some weird points and generally isn't especially honest-seeming, but then again I'm kind of sympathetic towards him after that really weird attack from Lottie and Zil's direction.

Lottie - seems maybe the worst this far (I KNOW, Lottie and Day1 suspicion, it's quite lame, but...), her points funnily resemble clutching at straws. Also, she merits people with stuff quite easily and weirdly (like me for contributing in my early posts).

Bom Tombadillo - under the radar with Steve and Eruhen.

Inziladun - his way of creating divisions and opposites, over-usage of italics to emphasise his points, his contradictory actions and willigness to stop talking about the acolyte when a majority of the villagers haven't even appeared - all I can call it is weird. It doesn't really look like a wolf, it doesn't look like a nervous gifted, mostly it looks like a cobbler, but we don't have one unless the acolyte is the acolyte of wolves ie a cobbler (which doesn't make sense given the narrations and the game balance).

Lommy! – I like the exclamation mark, that's all.

Nogrod - seems like typical innocent Nogrod, almost too much so with the patronising rant to Eruhen and all. Ah great.

Legate of Amon Lanc - can't judge him yet, really. Doesn't have the false friendliness of a Legatewolf, but could be he just learnt from always making the same mistake...


edit: xed with all

[Thinlómien]

*waves happily at Sally* Long time no see!

Zil - if your post
This kerfluffle over the Acolyte does serve another purpose, I see. Interesting.

doesn't refer to Lottie's previous post some ten minutes earlier:

That would of course be shiny in case we manage to lose our Seer early.
Manage to? Is this something you're hoping will happen? ;) :eek:

then what does it refer to?

[Inziladun]

*waves happily at Sally* Long time no see!

Zil - if your post


doesn't refer to Lottie's previous post some ten minutes earlier:



then what does it refer to?

The back-and-forth between Legate and me.

[Thinlómien]

The back-and-forth between Legate and me.In that case, please ignore what I said about you, Lottie and Pitch... (Although what I said about Lottie is still valid. Now that I reread it it might be she was just poking fun at him, but to me it looked more like a playful accusation.)

[Rikae]

So...

did Inzil really join Lottie's "suspicion" (which I took as a joke) of Pitch for his "manage to", or no? I don't see where he did. Where is this coming from, otherwise?

Also, I'd like to point out that if Nogrod is innocent he will decide that I'm guilty at some point and that I have some complicated scheme up my sleeve that only Nogrod could invent. :D
If he fails to do so, I'll suspect him.

EDIT: X'd with Inzil and Lommy.

[A Little Green]

So three people saying they don't like random votes is bad, but three people saying that they don't like people complaining about random votes is fine?Yes, because overlong rants about random votes when none have been cast are not really related to the current game, whereas remarks on those overlong rants are.

Eonwe looks sharp (me likey) and Boro slightly fishy. The latter is part gut-feeling (he seems too laid-back and nice, somehow - I mean, he's always nice, but this time it seems more conscious, sort of) and part because of the way he reacted to my previous post. He neatly downplays his own part in the pattern I wrote about by calling the whole thing shrewd observation and saying he won't vote me today. That was a really sketchy way to explain it, but I'm dead on my feet and need a bed.

Which reminds me - I'm sorry for my lousy contribution toDay, guys, but I must get to sleep, like, now.

[A Little Green]

Agh. Going with the only feeble lead I have -

++ Boro

I'd love to stay and read and discuss and most of all think, and do something a bit smarter than this, but unfortunately I've got to go. I'll be more active toMorrow, I promise. Good Night!

[Bom Tombadillo]

Arrrgh. Well, I've got nothing. Except . . . I don't like Greenie's vote; I really don't see what Boro has done to deserve a vote. Still, I'll not vote her until she can explain herself; it's entirely possible I'm missing something.

[Loslote]

So three people saying they don't like random votes is bad, but three people saying that they don't like people complaining about random votes is fine?

Yes, because ranting about random votes is just space-filler, but talking about posting and commenting about the posts being space-fillers can lead to getting a better idea of how the ranters (and commenters, for that matter) are playing (which can help lead to suspicion or lack thereof).

[Pitchwife - makes some weird points and generally isn't especially honest-seeming, but then again I'm kind of sympathetic towards him after that really weird attack from Lottie and Zil's direction.[/QUOTE[

That wasn't an attack by any means. It was one semi-banter, playful poke post and one post that didn't actually end up having anything to do with the 'attack'. This seems to me like a Lommy-wolf overreacting to what she perceives as suspicion on her packmate, and responding by agreeing that he's suspicious but also throwing the 'attack' into poor light. I'd like to, first of all, keep a closer look at their interactions, but also note that Lommy is now one of my top suspicions.

[QUOTE]Lottie - seems maybe the worst this far (I KNOW, Lottie and Day1 suspicion, it's quite lame, but...), her points funnily resemble clutching at straws. Also, she merits people with stuff quite easily and weirdly (like me for contributing in my early posts).

It's Day One. There are no suspicions that won't seem like grasping at straws. If I'd been loudly proclaiming that someone was absolutely undeniably guilty, then the grasping at straws argument would hold water, but as it happens, I've been playfully poking and examining a group of people who posted eerily similar and abnormal rants. I didn't say you contributed, or anything nearly so concrete. I said your post made sense because of when it was posted, and that, looking at the context, was even one of the more substantial posts - one of the more, not actually substantial.

[Eönwë]

Inzil - This is not in fact suspicion (it's more like that what I've talked about in the beginning of this post), I simply don't understand: repeating this "we should focus on..." argument, but even after saying he understands me (which I believe he does), he fails to understand(??? can't think of other reason) that he is doing nothing!!! I mean, to post one post where you say "we should focus on..." and not adding anything, fine. But when somebody mentions that it is not very productive to just say it and do nothing else - and especially if you actually say you acknowledge what that person had said - and still keep only doing the same thing, posting the one-liners about the same thing... and you obviously are around and have time to post, so why not do more? I can't think of a reason why Zil is doing that, being he innocent or not. So, Zil: Why, since you have been around for several hours, you did not manage to actually post anything but only the same line four times over? Since you were so keen on starting hunting the Wolves??? That is a genuine question. I am puzzled, honestly.
This.

[Thinlómien]

Uggh, I should wake up in less than 8h, so better quit ww now. I don't really have much to add - maybe just that I still think Lottie's comment about Pitch sounded like a "lookee, lookee, he made a slip!" and if someone agreed she'd be ready to go "exactly, that's what I said!" but if someone questioned her reasoning she'd be saying "I was just making fun of him". I'll be back well before the DL and vote then based on all the evidence that has piled up while I've been sleeping and attending my morning lecture... ;)


edit: xed with Eönwë

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

A few small updates.

I have grown a bit more suspicious of Lommy - in particular, after her list. She has lots of those nothing-saying remarks about most people, and about some people (like e.g. Boro, sally or Greenie) she has the sort of notes which would well be used in the scheme "how to easily defend a packmate without making it seem obvious". Of course, it is now early and might be she does not have any sort of good suspects etc., and I know that such a list can sometimes come up just randomly out of genuine thinking. But I am just putting this under my watch.

Unless Legate is a baddie smelling an easy lynch. However, I do agree that others are more worrisome than he.
Well, I never said anything about accusation there, as far as I know. And most certainly not in the beginning, you of all should know since we were the ones talking - so I hope this is not attempt to make people suspect *me* or something.

Not that I require that answer, but you still completely avoid the question of what the Angband were you thinking when you kept saying "let's not ..., let's ...", yet not doing anything about it. I don't really require the answer, but it puzzles me and it puzzles me why are you not explaining it.

Apart from what I said about Lommy now, Greenie's vote made me look again at Boro. I must say there is something which I also find unsettling about him, but it is something different - mainly his sort of, hmm, apologetic tone in regards to other players. Like this:

I was actually going to tell Rikae, I don't think she's played with you before and your early posts are a standard G55. Granted, that means you would also do it as a wolf, but I appreciate the variety you bring to the table. How dragging and teeth-gritting would a village full of Legates, Nogs, and Boros be?
He does then raise some more critical points about Gal, like pondering her possible guilt etc, but overall his tone seems to be rather friendly and *uses dictionary* lenient. Indulgent. Benevolent. (Hope you get the point :D )

Also, a bit from the same post:
Although, I'd hardly say Legate and Inzil were as stubborn and aggressive as I was being with Agan, certainly as far as early day activity they will be getting the majority of the attention. Good observation, and what to make of it is the question. And now, add Greenie to the list of those who I'd prefer not to see lynched today.
That's also somewhat similar - the last sentence, I mean - he did that before toDay, of course yes, you can rule out people you don't want to lynch, but somehow this can have two edges... you can rule out people, but you can also be nicey-goodey to people... which somehow does not fit with Boro for me. Not this kind of behavior.

Just poking in to correct a misconception: Eruhen is a he. Named Phil.

That's all.
Okay, my apologies, shall bear that in mind.

Arrrgh. Well, I've got nothing. Except . . . I don't like Greenie's vote; I really don't see what Boro has done to deserve a vote. Still, I'll not vote her until she can explain herself; it's entirely possible I'm missing something.

This also does not sit well with me. It's more like gut feeling, and sort of the "defensive" tone or what... "I don't like... it's possible I am missing..." But then again, really, with Bom it's difficult. I find it hard to analyze him when he posts generally rather short, unealaborative posts - which may have substance (and may even be spot on), but it is just harder to say if he is making stuff up and faking it or just speaking his mind, if you know what I mean...

EDIT: x-ed after Bom

[Galadriel55]

A leeeetle short update:

I would not want to see Zil lynched, as I said before. Can't see an Inzilawolf putting his neck in line like that.

Lommy relies heavily on the word "weird" in her impressions post, a word that I find terribly undescriptive. I doubt anyone has any strong impressions, but "weird" is too vague a way of phrasing it. That ticked my radar.

This may have been an impression left by the Lottie-suspicion, but she does feel odd. I'll try to be very careful and objective here, because looking at my slight apprehension from the side it could be an effect of some wolves muttering "Lottie is bad, go lynch her". And from what I know about WW games this isn't the first occurance of this either. I'm going to do my best to keep my ground and separate my own thoughts from the others' about Lottie.



Everyone else either said too little or the impression didn't stand out (you're all sensible and have some good points and no good/bad vibe that stands out, I won't list you all individually and repeat this).

[Nogrod]

Okay. I'm really confused with Inzil and I need to think and probably rethink before I write anything on him. But if you Inzil would like to explain, it would be fine.


But two short ones first.

I said earlier that Pitch was bothering me in the early game and I went back to have a look. And I think I know what it was, even if I'm a bit less sure of it's merit.

He opened with bantering in IC you southron Barbarians think you can tackle Gondor? Pathetic. You'll need all the help you can get from the Dark Lord.Which immediately led me to think that his role as a Gondorian-wolfie was showing through... coupled with the odd way of saying that we "manage to kill our seer" in the same post.

Well after a check I realised that his character is from Umbar so north from Harad and the IC is correct. And reading Lommy point out the sarcasm in his point about us managing to kill our seer opened my eyes to that too, and I find it hard to read it otherwise anymore.

The second thing that bothered me there early on was him accusing both Rikae and Eönwë piling onto easy suspicion (the Legate - Zil thingy) when looking at their posts that clearly isn't the case. And this actually bothers me still.

So part of my initial bad feelings about Pitch were clearly unfounded, but part I think still call for attention and I need to think about it more before the Day ends.



What bothers me about Boro is the way he painted G55 suspicious. To me her strong reaction to Rikae's question for Lottie looked very sincere indeed (as I said already back there). So Boro's attack looked to me like a wolf noticing a possible pray who has made herself vulnerable, and jumping for it. It's hard to see evil in a game, but it felt like a malvolent intent there.

Now what Greenie said about him walking away from a suspicion by ignoring it and "taking Greenie out from vote list", and what Legate said about his overall over-lenient manner are points I think merit considering as well.

[Rikae]

Greenie's vote for Boro looks more or less ok to me, precisely because it is so out-of-the-blue and gut-feelingish, if you get what I mean. Not to say that it's wabbit season or anything, but Greenie herself seems all right.

Eönwë is sort of blending into the background, and he seems to be doing it by hanging around in the thicket of meta-discussion, poking at multiple people while refraining from singling anyone out in a way that might attract too much attention. I'm going to keep my eye on him.

EDIT: X'd with a Nog.

[Inziladun]

I have grown a bit more suspicious of Lommy - in particular, after her list. She has lots of those nothing-saying remarks about most people, and about some people (like e.g. Boro, sally or Greenie) she has the sort of notes which would well be used in the scheme "how to easily defend a packmate without making it seem obvious". Of course, it is now early and might be she does not have any sort of good suspects etc., and I know that such a list can sometimes come up just randomly out of genuine thinking. But I am just putting this under my watch.

Apart from all that, I think Lommy's suspicion of Lottie based on her comments about Pitch is a reach.

Well, I never said anything about accusation there, as far as I know. And most certainly not in the beginning, you of all should know since we were the ones talking - so I hope this is not attempt to make people suspect *me* or something.

I think there are better ones to suspect than you. Steve comes to mind.

Not that I require that answer, but you still completely avoid the question of what the Angband were you thinking when you kept saying "let's not ..., let's ...", yet not doing anything about it. I don't really require the answer, but it puzzles me and it puzzles me why are you not explaining it.

All right, here it is: The discussion itself regarding the Acolyte wasn't, in my opinion, all that productive. We just don't have a lot of hard evidence, so I didn't want that to just go on and on all Day. What I was waiting for was reactions to our interplay over the matter. That's useful.

This also does not sit well with me. It's more like gut feeling, and sort of the "defensive" tone or what... "I don't like... it's possible I am missing..." But then again, really, with Bom it's difficult. I find it hard to analyze him when he posts generally rather short, unealaborative posts - which may have substance (and may even be spot on), but it is just harder to say if he is making stuff up and faking it or just speaking his mind, if you know what I mean...

It's no defense, but Bom, evil or good, pretty much does this every time. It's gotten him lynched many a time.

x/d with Rikae

[Eönwë]

Ok, I'm going to sleep now, and should be back in about 7/8 hours to vote.

I'm too tired to make a proper list, but here are some final thoughts:

Legate looks good to me now. He speaks sense and I agree with most of what he says.

I'm still confused about Inzil. Hopefully he'll explain what he was thinking earlier by the time I come back.

Nogrod makes me uncertain. I seem to remember his innocent self being more controversial and and attacking on Day 1, but maybe things have changed since I've been gone.

Greenie seems innocent enough. She makes good points and seems like she's trying to work for the innocents, so I'll trust her for now.

Lommy worries me a bit. I can never get a good read on her, but something in her posts makes me uneasy.

Boro also worries me. He's usually loud and talkative, but now he seems to be flitting in and out of the game in a way that seems almost non-commital. He hasn't spoken much yet though, so I can't judge him properly.

Bom is far under the radar.

G55 is impossible to read, but she seems innocent enough so far.

Pitch seems a bit self-conscious. Don't know whether this makes him look good or bad.

Rikae seems to be adopting her regular tone, and so far she seems clear and honest, so I'm liking her at the moment.

Lottie always seems suspicious on Day 1, so it's no surprise that she does now, but with the whole late meta-discussion comment I mentioned before as well as some of the other points people have brought against her, she seems worse than usual. But I don't know if a wolf would be so bold so early on.

Sally has said far too little for me to say anything about her.

I've never played with Eru, so, at least for today, I'm willing to give his "I'll just watch" the benefit of the doubt, even though it seems pretty bad.



Ok, so I was wrong. It has basically become a list.


edit: x-ed with Nog's last post and fixed spellings

[Nogrod]

Lottie then. (I'm checking people that I've had some bad feelings about one by one - if my method of picking just a few people at the time does seem a bit odd)

She admits her "manage to kill the seer" -note was semi-banter, but the way she phrases it looks interesting. It was one semi-banter, playful poke post and one post that didn't actually end up having anything to do with the 'attack'
So she admits there was an attack but that her "poke" just didn't actually end up having anything to do with it? Okay. This might be a linguistic issue (non-native speaker here) and you should correct me if I'm wrong, but to me that phrasing looks pretty odd.

Her rant against random-vote talk and the implication that the ones doing it are just filling space with nothing to say while trying to look helpful is clearly misguided for two reasons (read these Lottie)
1) That talk needs to be made in every game so that random votes don't happen. And it needs to be stated in no unplain terms. After it is done and the general mood is outspoken, no wolf wishes to dare a random vote. It's called "performative use of language" in linguistics and philosophy of language: saying things make them happen. Not saying it loudly enough leaves room for different behaviours (and sadly I'm not convinced our rant was enough for no one to try a declared random vote but well, we'l see about that).
2) Of all people you say that Legate and I are the ones who try to hunker down and stay ambivalent and just fill space with saying nothing! Really?
Really? :rolleyes:

And well, like Eönwë pointed out, it seems pretty funny she is unhappy with people filling space with "self-evidencies" and does it herself adding the N'th explanation why the Acolyte discussion is okay... But well, most of us are guilty of that this Day. (It's been a weird Day in that. :confused:)

But something I feel uneasy with her is in her post where she answers Rikae about G55. It is kind of, how would you say it, like a child who wants to play nice for mom even if she hasn't been good lately. When mom asks, she immediately answers - finds an answer she hasn't herself picked up before but is kind of "good enough" to be an answer, and gives it just like that. And then mom pats her head and doesn't ask nasty questions any more.

Does anyone get what I mean?

Also, I think she is over-reacting to Lommy's suspicions, to put it mildlyIf I'd been loudly proclaiming that someone was absolutely undeniably guilty, then the grasping at straws argument would hold water
But like Inzil, I find her first and foremost acting strangely. In Lottie's case that would mean being very jumpy at times and at the other time poking here and there...


I see Inzil has posted... enough right now, back soon.

[Pitchwife]

So I fell asleep after dinner and wake up when it's nearing bedtime. Good it's not DL yet.

Lommy, which of my points seem "weird" to you?

G55's outburst against Rikae feels pretty genuine to me, and I don't quite get what Boro thinks was so over-the-top about it - I mean, if she had the impression that Rikae was trying to suggest Lottie suspect her, being outraged is an understandable reaction; and as Rikae's post looks just like that on the surface, who's to blame her. (Only, knowing Rikae a bit, that would have been remarkably unsubtle.)

Plus, if he's a wolf, I'd imagine he would have let the Alcolyte speculation run its course instead of jumping into the spotlight himself.
That's actually a good point. Wolves usually love discussing rules and technicalities rather than discussing people, they're great for talking a lot without saying much.

Legate, one thing I'd like to be clear about - if, as you say, you weren't accusing Zil when all this started, are you accusing him now or is your insistence merely scientific interest in his thought processes?

Which immediately led me to think that his role as a Gondorian-wolfie was showing through...
You want to read up on the Corsairs of Umbar. We're the only pure Gondorians left - that rabble up north are just mudbloods.

The second thing that bothered me there early on was him accusing both Rikae and Eönwë piling onto easy suspicion (the Legate - Zil thingy) when looking at their posts that clearly isn't the case.
Isn't it?
I agree with Legate on the importance of simply starting conversation [...] In that vein, I don't much care for Inzil and Bom's empty posts
Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion.
How would you describe what's going on here?

[Boromir88]

Greenie's vote for Boro looks more or less ok to me, precisely because it is so out-of-the-blue and gut-feelingish, if you get what I mean. Not to say that it's wabbit season or anything, but Greenie herself seems all right.


Yeah, not exactly happy that acknowledging a person's good observation makes you too nice to not be evil, but it doesn't look like a bad/wolfy vote.

Lommy relies heavily on the word "weird" in her impressions post, a word that I find terribly undescriptive. I doubt anyone has any strong impressions, but "weird" is too vague a way of phrasing it. That ticked my radar.

Weird is a pretty common Lommyism. I know, because I've harped on her before to stop using it if she's suspecting someone. :p

This may have been an impression left by the Lottie-suspicion, but she does feel odd. (bold my emphasis).

See my point? It's impossible to avoid using weird/odd/strange to describe unusual/suspicious behavior.

What bothers me about Boro is the way he painted G55 suspicious. To me her strong reaction to Rikae's question for Lottie looked very sincere indeed (as I said already back there). So Boro's attack looked to me like a wolf noticing a possible pray who has made herself vulnerable, and jumping for it.

Well. Didn't look genuine to me. And perhaps I shouldn't look at it through my eyes, but I've done the same thing time and time again when I've been a wolf. Get too dramatic over the slightest of things. Not that G55 was faking being angry, but playing up being angry to hopefully get suspicion off her. As if her honor had been impugned. I've literally done the same thing, indignicantly objecting to people beating around the bush..."If you suspect me then suspect me!" stuff.

And her defense for the rant comes dow to semantics, not liking the way Rikae phrased the question to Lottie. Now tell me if you think overly-dramatic reactions to stuff like word definitions and the way questions are phrased is genuine?

Edit: Crossed since Inzil's post #72.

[Pitchwife]

So she admits there was an attack but that her "poke" just didn't actually end up having anything to do with it?
No, what Lottie is saying is that Zil's post that followed hers didn't have anything to do with her poke/attack/whateveryouwannacallit, unlike Lommy had supposed.
FWIW, I was mildly annoyed by Lottie's failure to get my sarcasm, but I didn't think of it as an "attack" until Lommy, ironically, blew it up into one.

Lottie always seems suspicious on Day 1, so it's no surprise that she does now, but with the whole late meta-discussion comment I mentioned before as well as some of the other points people have brought against her, she seems worse than usual. But I don't know if a wolf would be so bold so early on.
In which way would you say has Lottie acted like a bold wolf? I fail to see where she's done anything particularly bold yet.

[Rikae]

Haha, I just realized I mistook a coyote for a wabbit... that could be a dangerous mistake!

[Nogrod]

The second thing that bothered me there early on was him accusing both Rikae and Eönwë piling onto easy suspicion (the Legate - Zil thingy) when looking at their posts that clearly isn't the case.
Isn't it?
I agree with Legate on the importance of simply starting conversation [...] In that vein, I don't much care for Inzil and Bom's empty posts
Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion.
How would you describe what's going on here?I'd describe them just as what they stand for. :)

So, Rikae is saying that Legate is right in stating that there should be conversation (defending the Acolyte discussion), and that she disagrees with the way Zil & Bom post empty posts (aka posts that don't get us any further, I guess?)

Eönwë is saying that he doesn't like the way Zil turned the Acolyte discussion into a meta discussion - whether that is true or false as I'm not sure it was Zil (or him alone) who turned the discussion off the Acolyte (or whether it was bad that Acolyte discussion finally ended).

But "piling onto easy suspicion in the Legate - Inzil case"? Nope.

To me those doing it are the ones who jump on it (the "controversy" between the two) and parrot things like "that is the interesting thing toDay" - implying that we should concentrate on them. That's "piling up" for me. Pointing at that discusiion as being the one to pay heed to (while ignoring other possibilities).

Some did do that, but I think not Rikae or Eönwë.

[Pomegranate]

Blood! Panic!. She faints, and it takes this amount of time for her to be waken up by the support of smelling salts and one particularly handsome soldier who has no role in this game whatsoever. She leaves him hoping for something that will never happen while she goes to hunt for spies.

...that is, Real Life will probably make (and has already made) toDay an extremely inactive one for me, apologies for that. With a lot of new players (new to me, that is) it would take a lot more time than I have to make any profound analyses about people. However, to share some gut feelings that were called for:

I agree with Boro seeming slightly less aggressive and energetic than the last time I played with him, enough to seem non-usual. Hence I feel that Greenie's vote was understandable and that makes her send positive vibes for me. Also this kind of non-explained but apparently with some reason behind it -vote seems rather like her.

Lottie seems more productive now than when I've experienced her as a wolf, so this is an opposite case to Boro's.

Love to Nogrod for
It's called "performative use of language" in linguistics and philosophy of language: saying things make them happen. Not saying it loudly enough leaves room for different behaviours (and sadly I'm not convinced our rant was enough for no one to try a declared random vote but well, we'l see about that).
, this relatively new linguistics student got all excited about that point. I think that sounded genuine, though I haven't played with this active Nogrod and I'm assuming he's just the same when he's a wolf. Just as convincing, that is. And I actually do think that there was enough discussion on random votes so that any will now seem relatively suspicious.

G55 jumps, but it seems genuine and I won't hold it against her this time, realising it's probably pretty typical of her.

That is all I've got for now, I'm afraid. Will try to make my way back enough before the deadline so that I'll avoid last-minute votes and still can actually read over things more carefully.

edit. x/ed with Nogrod

[Nogrod]

I've done the same thing time and time again when I've been a wolf. Get too dramatic over the slightest of things.
...
Now tell me if you think overly-dramatic reactions to stuff like word definitions and the way questions are phrased is genuine?That depends a lot on who is doing it, don't you think? If the phantom tried it, I'd not turn half of my ear to him, but if Mith did it, I would be fairly certain it's true.

[Nogrod]

I'm off to bed as well...

I hope there will be a lot of discussion during the night here, especially by those who have been quiet or enigmatic thus far. The DL for me (and other Finns) is 2PM so as I'm on vacation I should have time to both read and take part nicely before it.

Be active.

[Loslote]

Lottie always seems suspicious on Day 1, so it's no surprise that she does now, but with the whole late meta-discussion comment I mentioned before as well as some of the other points people have brought against her, she seems worse than usual.

No. Just no. This happens every game. I don't mind the being suspected easily, I've gotten used to that - but if I had a kitten for every time someone says "she's always suspicious, I know that...but she's more suspicious than usual this time"...let's just say my allergies would be killing me.

1) That talk needs to be made in every game so that random votes don't happen.

Then why isn't it? I wouldn't have even noticed it if it were said every game. It would just be normal. Part of the reason it's so odd-looking is that it is, in fact, abnormal. Just because it 'needs to be said', according to you (which I disagree with, by the way - if a bunch of people post giant blocks of angry text about not randomly voting every game, no one will read them after the first few times. It will cease to have any meaning whatsoever) does not mean I am forbidden to comment on it when, for the first time in my memory, not just one but three people post about it.

And it needs to be stated in no unplain terms. After it is done and the general mood is outspoken, no wolf wishes to dare a random vote. It's called "performative use of language" in linguistics and philosophy of language: saying things make them happen. Not saying it loudly enough leaves room for different behaviours (and sadly I'm not convinced our rant was enough for no one to try a declared random vote but well, we'l see about that).

No. I disagree. Now, I'm not a linguistics and philosophy of language expert, but I do know from experience that just because you say something loud enough doesn't make it happen. Yes, if everyone here posted and said that, no one would random vote, but that's just because everyone would have to agree to post. As it is, clearly some people don't agree, because people do random vote. Ranting loudly won't make them change their minds. It'll just make people skim your posts because your rants are obnoxious.

2) Of all people you say that Legate and I are the ones who try to hunker down and stay ambivalent and just fill space with saying nothing! Really?
Really? :rolleyes:

People like Bom and Sally are basically expected to post little to nothing of substance on Day One. You and Legate are not. When people do what I'm not used to them doing, I pay attention more than when they do what I am used to them doing.

But something I feel uneasy with her is in her post where she answers Rikae about G55. It is kind of, how would you say it, like a child who wants to play nice for mom even if she hasn't been good lately. When mom asks, she immediately answers - finds an answer she hasn't herself picked up before but is kind of "good enough" to be an answer, and gives it just like that. And then mom pats her head and doesn't ask nasty questions any more.

But I had noticed it. I just hadn't posted about it yet. When Rikae asked, I figured I might as well flesh out my concern about the post.

[Galadriel55]

See my point? It's impossible to avoid using weird/odd/strange to describe unusual/suspicious behavior.

I know, I use them too. But to use the same one like 5 times in the same list? All these people can't feel exactly the same to you, can they?

Be active.

Yessir.

I have ~2hours before bedtime, and I have little work left, so I can participate a bit more actively... possibly. If I don't procrastinate.

[Inziladun]

So, Rikae is saying that Legate is right in stating that there should be conversation (defending the Acolyte discussion), and that she disagrees with the way Zil & Bom post empty posts (aka posts that don't get us any further, I guess?)

Eönwë is saying that he doesn't like the way Zil turned the Acolyte discussion into a meta discussion - whether that is true or false as I'm not sure it was Zil (or him alone) who turned the discussion off the Acolyte (or whether it was bad that Acolyte discussion finally ended).

But "piling onto easy suspicion in the Legate - Inzil case"? Nope.

I do think that Eönwë seemed to leap at the opportunity, but now he's backed off somewhat. Rikae seemed less serious about it from the start.

To me those doing it are the ones who jump on it (the "controversy" between the two) and parrot things like "that is the interesting thing toDay" - implying that we should concentrate on them. That's "piling up" for me. Pointing at that discusiion as being the one to pay heed to (while ignoring other possibilities).

I agree, that would indeed be a good place for baddies to hide. I still think Steve seems suspicious, though.

Love to Nogrod for

, this relatively new linguistics student got all excited about that point. I think that sounded genuine, though I haven't played with this active Nogrod and I'm assuming he's just the same when he's a wolf. Just as convincing, that is. And I actually do think that there was enough discussion on random votes so that any will now seem relatively suspicious. (emphasis mine)

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but could you clarify what you meant by the bolded bit?

[Galadriel55]

Somehow my reply to Lottie was eaten up. I am being kicked out from my computer, so I'll repost it later. For now, though -

But I had noticed it. I just hadn't posted about it yet. When Rikae asked, I figured I might as well flesh out my concern about the post.

This doesn't make sense to me. Am I the only one, or does this really make no sense? If you noticed, why did you make a suspicious post? Or if you only noticed later, why didn't you comment "yet"?

I'll elaborate when I get my computer back.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

A Nogrod-style (i.e.: late night :) ) post from me, then bed, then probably waking up tomorrow and posting rather shortly before DL (with vote).

Legate, one thing I'd like to be clear about - if, as you say, you weren't accusing Zil when all this started, are you accusing him now or is your insistence merely scientific interest in his thought processes?
Rather the later. If I wanted to be honest, I would say I *am* suspicious of him now: however, there is little of what one would call "wolfiness" about him. I mean, he is not manipulating people or stuff like that, he is just totally weird. Now, with his last post in which he basically did nothing but quoted me, he did not still answer my question - even though he tried, apparently! He answered with the very same thing we all know already and which he had said already four times over. We know what you meant by saying that acolyte discussion blah blah, Zil, but all I wanted to hear is why you had been proposing focusing instead of debating the Acolyte on catching Wolves, yet failed to lead by example, or if not lead, then at least try! I wonder which part of that have I not made clear enough...
Okay, I'd say let's forget that, if it were not for the fact that it is one of the most "important" (standing out) things you have said and that it does not make any sense...

Weird is a pretty common Lommyism. I know, because I've harped on her before to stop using it if she's suspecting someone. :p

(bold my emphasis).

See my point? It's impossible to avoid using weird/odd/strange to describe unusual/suspicious behavior.
Again. He is being too nice, if he is all right, I will eat my shoe, seriously. Normal Boro attacks people. This Boro defends people. No. It is incredibly stupid to suspect people based on that they are nice and such, but it was the very same Boro who had told me last time (after the game when I suspected him and then backed off and failed to lynch him) that I should not give up on this lead... so I won't. Nice Boro is most likely a Wolf. Normal Boro tends not to smudge honey all over you.

I agree with Boro seeming slightly less aggressive and energetic than the last time I played with him, enough to seem non-usual. Hence I feel that Greenie's vote was understandable and that makes her send positive vibes for me. Also this kind of non-explained but apparently with some reason behind it -vote seems rather like her.
Okay, this is the first time I play with Pomegranate (whoever you are), but I must say I'm impressed by the either incredibly sharp or incredibly overconfident insight into Boro, since I would sign it (I mean: I know how innocent Boro tends to act based on dozens of games, not sure how many games Pomegranate might have been in, but it certainly cannot be much). That said, impressed does not rule out eventual suspicion (and does not rule out that both our suspicions of Boro are completely off after all), but for the time being, I will just stop at the "impressed" part.

Otherwise... I think that's about what I have to say right now. Still feeling very good about Rikae (probably on top of my "trustworthy" list now), otherwise what I said... so I shall pop up before DL.

[Boromir88]

Boro also worries me. He's usually loud and talkative, but now he seems to be flitting in and out of the game in a way that seems almost non-commital. He hasn't spoken much yet though, so I can't judge him properly.


You ever have one of those days where it feels like you can't remember what you've been doing all day? That's been me today...like I swear I've kept up-to-date on all the replies, and by Day 1 standards it appears moderately productive, yet...I haven't the faintest clue what the heck I've been reading. Nothing is sinking in, it's as if I'm reading words but not complete sentences with thoughts and ideas. Probably why I've looked so disconnected and non-commital, and I can't do anything except say "you're right, I'm not being me."

I'll be up for the next 2-ish hours, so will go back and read through it again, and will have to vote within that time too.

Edit: crossed with Legate

[Loslote]

++Lommy

Because of her list post, overreaction to the 'suspicion that wasn't' against Pitch, and stretching her points in general. She's my top suspect, and I'm not positive I'll be online again before DL.

[Boromir88]

Okay, this is the first time I play with Pomegranate (whoever you are), but I must say I'm impressed by the either incredibly sharp or incredibly overconfident insight into Boro, since I would sign it (I mean: I know how innocent Boro tends to act based on dozens of games, not sure how many games Pomegranate might have been in, but it certainly cannot be much). That said, impressed does not rule out eventual suspicion (and does not rule out that both our suspicions of Boro are completely off after all), but for the time being, I will just stop at the "impressed" part.


Last game was Pomegranate's first, as far as WW here, although I believe she said she was familiar with the premise of the game. Anyway, she definitely was in the "impressed me" group...oh maybe I shouldn't say that...makes me too nice still. :rolleyes:

Was not one of the frequent posters, but when she did it was always stocked to the brim with insight and good observations. Ahh, again, I really need to stop this complimenting thing...eh whatever, it's the truth.

[Galadriel55]

So, anyways -

I've reread Lottie's posts and there really isn't that much suspicious stuff. There's only 2 things (out of all the mountains of suspicion) that don't look good to me: the post Nog talked about, and her last one. Here they are:

This caught my eye when she posted it:

Considering that this is actually one of the more productive Day Ones in recent memory, this feels like G55 trying to stall useful discussion by writing it off as "oh, well, this Day is doomed to be non-productive, too bad".

Other than that, though, nothing she's said really stood out to me.

But something I feel uneasy with her is in her post where she answers Rikae about G55. It is kind of, how would you say it, like a child who wants to play nice for mom even if she hasn't been good lately. When mom asks, she immediately answers - finds an answer she hasn't herself picked up before but is kind of "good enough" to be an answer, and gives it just like that. And then mom pats her head and doesn't ask nasty questions any more.

But I had noticed it. I just hadn't posted about it yet. When Rikae asked, I figured I might as well flesh out my concern about the post.


So my issue with the last one: Lottie, you're saying that you agree with Nog that your first (quoted) post looks bad, and that you've noticed this before. Well, if you have, why did you wait to say so, and then come out and say that you did know it? And why did you write a post that looks badif you realised it looks bad (this is against all the logic of the game)?

Though the last point - illogical as it is - points to Lottie's innocence rather than guilt, because, as with Zil, I don't think a wolf would deliberately say such a thing that would put him/her into the light.

For now I decided I'm not voting Lottie toDay. It's too easy to lynch her. There's too much unreasonable suspicion. Lottie's posts tend to be more loosely-worded than other players', and thus more easy to manipulate. (This might be the issue with what I quoted above too.)

Then why isn't it? I wouldn't have even noticed it if it were said every game. It would just be normal. Part of the reason it's so odd-looking is that it is, in fact, abnormal. Just because it 'needs to be said', according to you (which I disagree with, by the way - if a bunch of people post giant blocks of angry text about not randomly voting every game, no one will read them after the first few times. It will cease to have any meaning whatsoever) does not mean I am forbidden to comment on it when, for the first time in my memory, not just one but three people post about it.


Don't be so harsh. People need to rant :). Werewolf rants are different in each game - random votes, submarines, last-minute scuffle... But usually there is, or rather, there are rants.

Edit: xed since my last.

[Inziladun]

If I wanted to be honest, I would say I *am* suspicious of him now: however, there is little of what one would call "wolfiness" about him. I mean, he is not manipulating people or stuff like that, he is just totally weird. Now, with his last post in which he basically did nothing but quoted me, he did not still answer my question - even though he tried, apparently! He answered with the very same thing we all know already and which he had said already four times over. We know what you meant by saying that acolyte discussion blah blah, Zil, but all I wanted to hear is why you had been proposing focusing instead of debating the Acolyte on catching Wolves, yet failed to lead by example, or if not lead, then at least try! I wonder which part of that have I not made clear enough...
Okay, I'd say let's forget that, if it were not for the fact that it is one of the most "important" (standing out) things you have said and that it does not make any sense...

This is my final word on this matter.

Legate, I didn't have to "lead by example" to move things away from the Acolyte: it happened on its own, and people started reacting to the two of us instead. I really didn't see it as all that complex.

Okay, this is the first time I play with Pomegranate (whoever you are), but I must say I'm impressed by the either incredibly sharp or incredibly overconfident insight into Boro, since I would sign it (I mean: I know how innocent Boro tends to act based on dozens of games, not sure how many games Pomegranate might have been in, but it certainly cannot be much). That said, impressed does not rule out eventual suspicion (and does not rule out that both our suspicions of Boro are completely off after all), but for the time being, I will just stop at the "impressed" part.

I've played one game with Pom/Nate, and she was innocent then. She proved herself to be a sharp player indeed.

That said, it's funny how the one post from her thus far was such a parroting of suspicion on someone who already has a vote.

x/d with Lottie, Boro, and G55.

[Inziladun]

Bedtime soon, and I'll have to vote shortly, as my waking-up time is right about DL. Pity, because there are many that have been here toDay very little or not at all.

I think I'm leaning toward Eönwë. Despite what Nog said, it did look to me as if he was opportunistically latching onto Legate's apparent suspicion of me.

[Bom Tombadillo]

*sigh* Well, I'd say that I'm off for a bit and will return before bed with a vote, but I know how this works. I'm going to get caught up in whatever else I end up doing and forget to vote.

So. I've still got no suspicions great enough to act on, and I don't seem to be in danger of being lynched.

++Bom Tombadillo

[Loslote]

So my issue with the last one: Lottie, you're saying that you agree with Nog that your first (quoted) post looks bad, and that you've noticed this before. Well, if you have, why did you wait to say so, and then come out and say that you did know it? And why did you write a post that looks badif you realised it looks bad (this is against all the logic of the game)?

Popped back on - Girl's Night was cancelled after all - and G55, I now understand your confusion. I didn't say that I'd noticed Nog's point before I posted about it. I meant that I'd noticed my point about you before I posted it. :)

EDIT: And now I'm really off. Good hunting, all!

[Inziladun]

*sigh* Well, I'd say that I'm off for a bit and will return before bed with a vote, but I know how this works. I'm going to get caught up in whatever else I end up doing and forget to vote.

So. I've still got no suspicions great enough to act on, and I don't seem to be in danger of being lynched.

++Bom Tombadillo

Nilping yourself, eh? I suppose that's an understandable out for a pressed-for-time innocent not wanting to hit a Gifted, but it also could be an easy ploy for a wolf. For the moment, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

x/d with Lottie

[Galadriel55]

It's time for me to vote, and I really don't know who to vote for. And my vote will not be random, much as I'm tempted to just throw die.

I don't like some of the Lottie-suspicion, but it's too late now for me to start pushing and probing into it. Also, the same people who suspected Lottie made valid reasonable points.

Boro really is being nice. When I played with Borowolf he was not particularly nice (no, you weren't mean, you were just you :)), so I can't say that his manner points to lupinity. Maybe he just decided out of the blue to mend his ways. :p

Can't say I suspect him, but Legate is right about the change in the manner.

The only other person that is closer to being a suspect is Lommy. I've said very little about her, but there has been some talk about her with which I agree. (the only bit of which I don't like is that she made a big deal out of an unexistent attack, which I think was pure misunderstanding on her part.)

During the Day I decided whom I'm not voting for. I don't know who I will vote for. Between Lommy and Boro (both of which, coincidentally, have votes) I am leaning more towards Lommy. My uneasiness with her comes from the content of what she said, whereas with Boro it is with how he says it. Yeah, I'll call that my final decision.

Vote comming in a few minutes. I want to wait as long as I can before leaving off.

Edit: xed since #92

[Galadriel55]

Popped back on - Girl's Night was cancelled after all - and G55, I now understand your confusion. I didn't say that I'd noticed Nog's point before I posted about it. I meant that I'd noticed my point about you before I posted it. :)

Ah. Right. :) We're all good. (but what Nog said still stands!)


And speaking of Nog, I'm sorry about not participating much when I said I would. I wasn't counting on my computer being used by other peoples, so instead of posting summaries/analises I ended up posting scattered thoughts in snatches...

[Galadriel55]

++LOMMY


G'night, all.

[Inziladun]

Can't leave it any longer.

++Eönwë

Good luck, folks.

[satansaloser2005]

I am going to bed in precisely forty-five minutes, if not before. I will make my final decision in the meantime (and also put on my cozy pajamas). For now, however, I shall offer some thoughts.


*sigh* Well, I'd say that I'm off for a bit and will return before bed with a vote, but I know how this works. I'm going to get caught up in whatever else I end up doing and forget to vote.

So. I've still got no suspicions great enough to act on, and I don't seem to be in danger of being lynched.

++Bom Tombadillo

Oh, you simply must be joking. :rolleyes:


I am completely ignoring the scuffle from earlier toDay, at least for now. Let's leave that to be sorted out once we have any sort of concrete information with which to do so.

Also, this acolyte business! Aren't we meant to be catching spies? I understand the pull of discussing the subject, but really, I've ignored most of it for now, because it's far from my primary concern.

I trust one person at present, and that's Lottie. Her kitten comment in this post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667438&postcount=83) is oddly reassuring; it seems like my innocent Lottie, rather than an evil one. I also wish to keep the Finn contingent (+1) around, though it's presently more for entertainment value than for safety.

Bom's self-vote does not sit well with me at all. Seriously? Why would you do that? (Yeah, sure, he "explained" it, but I don't like it one bit.)

My beloved prince Boro is, of course, a sweet young lad who could never do harm. :Merisu:

I see Mr. Agreeable is back. Presently I'm thinking he's come back with a new fur coat. I don't suppose I could borrow it, sir? It's been quite chilly in these parts and I could use the warmth. (Overclarifying and getting irked at people's ineptitude at sarcasm do not fit an innocent Pitch's modus wolferandi.)

Steve? Steve is up to something. Oh, and Rikae is obviously evil, as always. ;)


Or, as they say in Limerick....

Of Bom's vote I do not approve
It seems like a quite scheming move
Now stop all your fighting
And talks of wick-lighting
And make cases which you can prove

[satansaloser2005]

Wait a tick. The DL is at six? That's....man, that's going to make me want to get up early before work and try to chat some more. I thought it was at two for some reason. Still, I best just vote now(ish) and go to bed.

This has been the indecisive Sally post for this particular five minutes. I'll be voting shortly, so if anyone's around and has suggestions for me, I'd love to hear them.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

It seems that I cannot tell time
For really, I thought the deadline
Was just after two
Not when I hit snooze
And yet toward my bed I shall climb

[Rikae]

I'm going to bed and unlikely to be back again before DL, so I'm going to be with my original suspicion... I was going to vote for someone else, but the recent posts from

++Inzil

have a bad vibe to them, as if he's confident that he shifted the focus and can see one of the other suspects lynched. An innocent who dodged suspicion might be relieved, but would still be concerned about placing his own vote correctly and finding the actual wolves, and the tone of his posts seems off in light of that. In addition to my earlier suspicions it puts him in the lead.

[satansaloser2005]

Of my previously mentioned top options, I don't think Bom will go anywhere toDay, and I'm willing to give Rikae the benefit of the doubt, mostly because she was involved in the shenanigans earlier toDay and thus is confusing to read at the moment. (Also, I'm tired, so nyah.) I'm following my gut on this one, though I will by no means dissuade people from lynching Pitch in my absence.

I, however, will be voting for the last wolf in London. Well, hopefully.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

Though Rikae I do not believe
I give her and Bom a reprieve
For it is well-known
As Fea has shown
It's more fun to find rhymes for
++Steve


EDIT: x'd with Rikae's vote

[Eruhen]

Popping in before I drop off:

++Lommy

Sorry real life got in the way toDay, but I'll be back toMorrow ready to go.

[Nerwen]

Greetings, loyal subjects.

The voting so far:
A Little Green ––> Boro
Lottie ––> Lommy
Bom Tombadillo ––> Self
Galadriel55 ––> Lommy (2)
Inziladun ––> Eönwë
Rikae ––> Inziladun
Sally ––> Eönwë (2)
Eruhen ––> Lommy (3)

Left to vote: Boro, Shasta, Eönwë, Pomegranate, Pitchwife, Lommy, Nogrod, Legate.

[Eönwë]

Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion.
Isn't it?
How would you describe what's going on here?
Do I need to explain myself again? I didn't like the acolyte discussion because it meant everyone could hide under the veil of "This discussion is better than nothing, at least later we can look back on it" (see my earlier post (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667399&postcount=52)). I'm still not sure what Inzil was getting at, but by reiterating his side so many times, he gave more justification for people to argue the side that already has general consensus, and so no, I didn't like that because it gives the wolves a place to hide.
Just because something doesn't automatically make him evil, it doesn't mean I have to like what he's doing, does it?
You can try to misrepresent my argument (twice) if you want, but I think it's clear in the context of the rest of my post (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667369&postcount=31)that this is what I was getting at.

Eönwë is saying that he doesn't like the way Zil turned the Acolyte discussion into a meta discussion - whether that is true or false as I'm not sure it was Zil (or him alone) who turned the discussion off the Acolyte (or whether it was bad that Acolyte discussion finally ended).Inzil made three posts that essentially said "Let's not talk about the Acolyte and focus on finding the wolves" while making no suggestions about how such a thing might be done. The actual Acolyte discussion is irrelevant.



Ironically, I'm really not liking the look of Inzil now. I didn't find his play suspicious before, just very weird, but now, not only has he not even attempted to explain his actions, he's tried to claim I'm suspicious for pointing them out.


I probably actually want to vote for Inzil now. Lottie on a Day 1 is a bad idea, and no one else actually seems lynch-worthy yet.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'm here and reading (looks like I very nearly pulled a Kath! :eek:)

Also, this deadline is an... interesting one for me.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Shall we all now flock to protect Shasta since the Moddess Goddess's marvelous narration surely leaves no doubt about the identity of the seer?
Shhh! :p
Given the recent events, I think honour would demand Shasta and I go nilp because of our failures at serving the Empress. Oh woe!
But I never left my post! And besides, all of you know I'd never hurt the Empress!

Speaking of voting, I HATE RANDOM VOTES. THEY DON'T SERVE THE VILLAGE IN ANY WAY. DON'T MAKE THEM IF YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE ME ANGRY AND SUSPICIOUS OF YOU.
This is an awfully fervent announcement. I'm curious now, Lommy, of what you think of Bom's self-vote.

As far as speculating on the Acolyte goes, you all know speculating is one of my favorite things. So my personal speculation - it's possible that the Acolyte isn't either innocent-aligned or wolf-aligned, but rather has a win condition entirely their own (survive till the end, get X lynched, et cetera.) Boro's Mythomaniac idea, however, has merit, and I think it's an equally likely possibility.

Legate's #14 seems to be the start of this "Legate/Inzil business I've been reading about. It's also another one of the "hate of random votes" posts. What interests me in it is this quote of Legate's -
Now that said, it's nothing against you in particular, Zil (even though I quoted your post)
- which would be all good and well, had it ended there, but Legate keeps going after Zil in #20 -
Sure. That was what I gathered. However, as you have seen in my point, it is very nice that you are saying that, but what do you mean by "focus on finding Wolves". Saying "we should be finding Wolves" and finishing the post with that is probably the worst thing one can do. "What you are doing is not exactly what we should be doing, but I am not doing anything else either, I merely dismiss what you are doing but don't do anything new myself." I would therefore urge (if it wasn't clear enough from my previous posts) everyone who says "we shouldn't focus on this and that" not only to say what we should focus on (catching wolves, we ALL know that, of course, once again see what I said in my previous post, what else are we here for? Does anybody seriously think we are here to discuss Acolytes???), but MOST OF ALL to actually DO something, too, and not just talk how things *theoretically* should be done.
- so I think it's a bit strange that Legate continues going after Inzil with a point that he specifically mentioned wasn't a point against Inzil.

There's another interesting bit involving Lommy, Pitch, and G55 - about whether it's wise to speculate on the details of the Acolyte role. Lommy's point about not being sure it's wise to discuss the details of the role if it cooperates with the Seer is a valid one; and I personally agree with Pitch on the matter, that with the possibility that the Acolyte can join the wolf side, there's no harm in talking about it if it might wind up against us - but G55's reaction interests me.
Yeah, but the wolves are also listening. Personally, I don't want to give them ideas about how to strengthen their side.
I don't understand this reaction. Given that at this time all we have is speculation (and speculation that's likely to be wrong, in any case), I think the benefits of talking about it definitely outweigh any drawbacks, like that of the wolves listening. Let them. If they somehow manage to act on any random theory or idle speculation we've mentioned, and are spectacularly wrong, all the better for us.

Nogrod's #23 is a long, well-written post that doesn't really say much. For one, it's another "hate on random votes" post, and for another, it's his thoughts on the Acolyte. All well and good, but it seems he's replying to something Legate was using against Inzil at the time, which doesn't really fit.

And in a bit of a turnaround, Inzil's #24 is another answer to Legate that's basically been the same as his previous answers. Could be a case of "talking too much yet saying nothing", but I still tend to think Legate is the fishier of the two.

Now, Inzil's response (#26) to Lottie's joke (#25) was a real eyebrow-raiser, the first time I came across it. My first reaction to it was "Inzil's noting that Lottie caught Pitch in a slip!" But then later he says it was something different entirely.

I agree with Lottie's #28, about the random votes. I hate them as much as the next person, but ranting about it serves no purpose (and doesn't stop certain people from doing them, as we've seen.)

In #29, Inzil mentions that Rikae agrees with him and then doesn't like the emptiness of his posts, which looks like an opportunistic kind of "hey, look, that's suspicious" move - except in the post he quotes, Rikae says she agrees with Legate, not Inzil. Interesting.

ADD: Rikae herself mentions that a bit later -
Inzil, as I said, I agree with Legate. Posts that demand people work on catching wolves, rather than work on it themselves, are empty posts.

Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion. While the former discussion lets people think about the game ahead and shows people's attitudes now, as well as maybe being interesting to look at in future, this discussion about whether we should discuss it is bad because it's giving everyone a place to hide. Legate replied first, but now everyone's repeating the same thing (which I thought had been general consensus for ages anyway- it was when I last played) about any discussion being better than no discussion.

I'm not saying that Inzil or Legate are bad, but people are too keen to bandwaggon onto that discussion and say nothing of value, while looking active and helpful.

But I'm curious, Zil, what did you have in mind?

...What? You just got through basically reprimanding Inzil for discussion that doesn't accomplish anything, and now you're giving him a license to continue? That's.... awkward, Steve, very awkward indeed.

I should also say because the DL doesn't fit my schedule well, I'll most of the time probably have to vote 5-6 hours early. So, whoever is able to keep around at the DL...with double-lynching a factor, please stop this trend of "keep my vote until the last possible second" vote flurry.
I agree with this. Being another of those "will probably have to vote hours ahead of schedule", I would rather not see three people lynched at the same time because of people crossing at DL. However, this is currently subverted by the fact that my sleep schedule is currently wack, and I'll almost definitely actually be here for the DL toDay. :rolleyes:

Now, to get down to business, the most interesting thing that has happened so far is between Legate and Zil. Legate is of course right that saying "But we have to catch wolves" is a) easy and b) doesn't achieve anything in actually catching them [plus c) it's more or less saying "look how determined I am to catch wolves, I can't possibly be one"], and also in criticizing Zil for keeping aloof of the Acolyte discussion without suggesting an alternative.

The problem with this is that Zil plunging headlong into a D1 discussion with arguments left right & center is about as likely to happen as Bom starting D1 with a Nogrodesque rallying speech. He has this style of hanging back, observing and biding his time early in the game, and whenever I've suspected him because of it I've been wrong.

That said, Legate's criticism of him looks innocent to me (and the vehemence with which he pursued it just feels un-faked), but I don't like how people regurgitate it now and pile onto an easy suspicion (people meaning Rikae and Eönwë - especially Eönwë who complains about 'people' [no names given] 'bandwaggoning on that discussion' while doing it himself).
Pitch is now the second person to basically say 'Yeah, Legate had a good point on Inzil' (Greenie was the first.) And that bothers me, since Legate specifically said that what he was saying was "nothing against Zil". It's also worth noting that though Pitch apparently agrees with Legate's point, he hangs back a bit with "whenever I've suspected him because of it I've been wrong" - almost in a way that leaves him an out in case an Inzil lynch happens.

G55's post #39 is an incredible overreaction (and yes, that's coming from me, no one's allowed to laugh :p.) But really, asking someone what they think of you isn't tantamount to "here, make this point against this person for me."


And that's page 1 done. Moving on.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Inzil's #47 is chock-full of fun and games, isn't it? :p
Galadriel looked a bit whimsy to begin with but her defence of herself looks pretty genuine.
If you're talking about when she blew up at Rikae, I tend to disagree here (what? Shasta disagrees with Nogrod?) And I tend to disagree with Boro, too, when he mentioned that "that's typical G55." I'm almost certain I've never seen G55 explode like that, and the post she made after to clarify what she was saying (indeed, that she felt like she had to clarify at all) looks suspicious to me.

Also, the fact that it's Nogrod, of all people, defending what seems to be an emotional outburst is an immediate red flag.

Also also -
I think Greenie might be up to something with her suspicion on the behaviour of some with the Legate - Zil -discussion.
I was originally going to say "He's the third, along with Pitch and Greenie!" but then realized he's actually talking about Greenie's later post, which was quite valid. So that's okay then.
Zil's last post makes him look more innocent than not. He's making sense.
I don't know if I'd go that far.
The thing that caught my attention this far the most was the odd case of Lottie and Zil going against Pitch for saying "in case we manage to lynch our seer early". I mean, come on, that was clearly sarcastic phrasing! I'm not sure which is worse, Lottie pointing it out as a suspicious passage, or Zil implying it's a good point. (Unless Zil was sarcastic too? or referring to something else? I'm talking about #26)
Aha, that's what I was wondering about, as well.

ADD:
Pardon? I don't think I mentioned that bit from Pitch at all.
Lommy at #58.
Inzil at #59.

Okay, sure. Those two posts together, though, made me think the same thing Lommy thought. (Which is weird! :eek:)

And this still means that Lottie looks bandwaggony, and without a good excuse, since it was definitely and definitively resolved by that point, considering that everyone present except Pitchwife and Boro (on which note, Boro has actually said very little of actual substance so far) had voiced their opinion that any discussion was better than no discussion.
I disagree. It looks to me as though Lottie was simply answering Inzil's statement there (look at the wording.)

Now Inzil, come out and claim what you're trying to claim so we can all see how implausible it really is!
-snickers-
That wasn't an attack by any means. It was one semi-banter, playful poke post and one post that didn't actually end up having anything to do with the 'attack'. This seems to me like a Lommy-wolf overreacting to what she perceives as suspicion on her packmate, and responding by agreeing that he's suspicious but also throwing the 'attack' into poor light. I'd like to, first of all, keep a closer look at their interactions, but also note that Lommy is now one of my top suspicions.
Mmm... Personally, I never saw your post as the attack (we are talking about that post with "manage to", right?), but rather I thought Inzil was jumping on it a bit. Lommy appears to have thought the same (see above), until Inzil corrected her, which doesn't seem to be that suspicious to me (as I thought the same). So, are you suspecting Lommy for calling your post the attack, then?

ADD:
Uggh, I should wake up in less than 8h, so better quit ww now. I don't really have much to add - maybe just that I still think Lottie's comment about Pitch sounded like a "lookee, lookee, he made a slip!" and if someone agreed she'd be ready to go "exactly, that's what I said!" but if someone questioned her reasoning she'd be saying "I was just making fun of him". I'll be back well before the DL and vote then based on all the evidence that has piled up while I've been sleeping and attending my morning lecture...
Okay... Lottie's post was pretty obviously a joke to me, given that it's Lottie (and given the wink smiley.) So you're thinking it's Lottie, not Inzil who looks weird there? But I thought you were just thinking it was Inzil (see above)? If that's the case, then you look like you're scrambling to make the same evidence fit a different theory now that your first one's been debunked, if that makes sense. Right now, that looks bad.

In Legate's #68 (and, apparently, in his list from earlier, as I think that's where Eonwe got his quote), he apparently legitimately suspects Inzil? Which, then, looks a bit like a Legatewolf going "Hey, people bought that? Okay, let's go with it!"

I do agree with him about Bom, though. But then I always suspect Bom and want to vote him on principle. :rolleyes:

What bothers me about Boro is the way he painted G55 suspicious. To me her strong reaction to Rikae's question for Lottie looked very sincere indeed (as I said already back there). So Boro's attack looked to me like a wolf noticing a possible pray who has made herself vulnerable, and jumping for it. It's hard to see evil in a game, but it felt like a malvolent intent there.
...You're kidding. Who are you and what have you done with Nogrod?! That's so unlike what you'd normally say that I'm almost forced to look for a reason why you'd be protecting G55.

But something I feel uneasy with her is in her post where she answers Rikae about G55. It is kind of, how would you say it, like a child who wants to play nice for mom even if she hasn't been good lately. When mom asks, she immediately answers - finds an answer she hasn't herself picked up before but is kind of "good enough" to be an answer, and gives it just like that. And then mom pats her head and doesn't ask nasty questions any more.

Does anyone get what I mean?
Re: Lottie answering Rikae. Well, to me it looks like Lottie received a question directed at her, and answered it, like a normal person. I don't really see much wrong with that.

Pitch has a reaction that's remarkably similar to Nogrod's about G55 in #75. Somehow, though, it feels just like normal Pitch to me.

Aaaand that's all I've got for Page 2. Moving on...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I agree with basically everything Lottie says in #83.

I agree, that would indeed be a good place for baddies to hide. I still think Steve seems suspicious, though.
I may have just missed it, but could you say why?

Rather the later. If I wanted to be honest, I would say I *am* suspicious of him now: however, there is little of what one would call "wolfiness" about him. I mean, he is not manipulating people or stuff like that, he is just totally weird. Now, with his last post in which he basically did nothing but quoted me, he did not still answer my question - even though he tried, apparently! He answered with the very same thing we all know already and which he had said already four times over. We know what you meant by saying that acolyte discussion blah blah, Zil, but all I wanted to hear is why you had been proposing focusing instead of debating the Acolyte on catching Wolves, yet failed to lead by example, or if not lead, then at least try! I wonder which part of that have I not made clear enough...
Well... in Inzil's post here -
All right, here it is: The discussion itself regarding the Acolyte wasn't, in my opinion, all that productive. We just don't have a lot of hard evidence, so I didn't want that to just go on and on all Day. What I was waiting for was reactions to our interplay over the matter. That's useful.
- he pretty well answers that, in my opinion. So why mention it yet again? Legate, you do realize you've been doing basically the same thing as what you say Inzil's been doing, right?

Boro's several recent posts - they give off an interesting "sure, suspect me for that, okay, whatever" vibe (regarding Legate saying Boro's being too nice for normal-Boro.) Sidenote - you've seen Boro in a game with Phantom before, right? He's basically a lapdog! :p

Anyway, that doesn't really bother me, except that I've done the same thing when I was a wolf in hopes that whatever "reason" I was ignoring would just go away.

Bom at #94... -shakes head- There's really nothing more irritating than people that do this. But I won't harp.

Also, Inzil at #96 - all the talk about you apparently not just posting "empty posts" and you post something like this? Man...

Ironically, I'm really not liking the look of Inzil now. I didn't find his play suspicious before, just very weird, but now, not only has he not even attempted to explain his actions, he's tried to claim I'm suspicious for pointing them out.
He's explained himself twice. I find it interesting that you missed both instances, and I find it even more interesting that you're finding Inzil this suspicious right after A) he starts getting votes (Rikae's in particular) and B) he votes for you.


And that's me caught up, looks like. I'll have a post on what all this actually makes me think in a moment.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Leaning Very Innocent:
Shasta - Duh.

Leaning Innocent:
Boro - Two major reasons: one, I agree with him regarding G55; two, he's getting what seems to be a rather large amount of suspicion from people I'm currently suspicious of.

Rikae - I debated with myself for a bit before putting her here, instead of "No read", because she has been posting. It may be that her posts stick out less in my mind because they aren't gigantic walls of text; everything she's said thus far looks fairly ship-shape. I don't know that I agree with her vote, but she hasn't said anything that's made me think her overtly suspicious.

Pitch - Nothing Pitch has done today has really set off any alarm bells for me. Even though he's said a fair bit today, he almost went under the radar for me because I just remember him saying a fair bit without actually remembering much of the content - except when he argued a bit with Nogrod. I remember concentrating on that part especially.

Lottie - Like Boro, has been taking some heat from other people I find more suspicious. She's also said quite a bit that I happen to agree with. I don't find her suspicious at the moment.

Leaning Worse than Innocent, Better than Guilty:
Steve - Was tending to think him more innocent than not until his most recent post against Inzil. A lot about that post looks odd, especially the timing of it.

Greenie - Not a lot here to go on, but more than anyone in the "Not Leaning at All" category. I don't really agree with her vote.

Inzil - I'm not certain that he's an innocent. That said, there are some indicators that he was the target of a witchhunt today, for good or ill (I'm leaning ill, myself.)

Leaning Guilty:
G55 - I was fine with her until she exploded earlier. After that, I felt like her clarification of said explosion was basically used to make people more confident of her innocence ("A wolf wouldn't act like that," etc).

Lommy - I was on the same page with her regarding the Lottie/Inzil Case of the Ambiguous Posts until Inzil mentioned that he was talking about something completely different. I thought that was the end of it until Lommy began talking about ways that that made Lottie look bad in a way that almost looked like she was looking for support.

Nogrod - I admit, most of the reason he's in this category is his apparent connection to G55, whom I also find suspicious. His reaction to and subsequent defense of her was so incredibly counter to normal Nogrod that I just can't see that being his real thoughts on the matter.

Legate - The apparent leader of what has looked to me like a witchhunt on Inzil. Apparently missed it the first time Inzil explained himself, and hasn't posted since he explained it the second time. Still, the fact that he mentioned in the beginning that what he was saying wasn't a point against Inzil, and didn't change his mind until a fair number of people seemed to share his ideas, looks bad to me.

Not Leaning at All:
Sally
Pomegranate
Eruhen
Bom


I will likely end up voting someone in the "Guilty" category today.

[Nogrod]

If anyone is willing to help Bom with his suicide I'd be happy to lend a hand there. :mad:

So, we ranted too little about these no-trace votes (or we should have made the rant wider). I mean a self vote is as bad as a declared random vote in that they result in the same: there's no way of saying whom the person really wished to vote for (or whom he didn't want to vote) - or whom he faked wishing to vote for or not to vote for. Declared intentions concerning one's votes + the votes themselves are the bread and butter of this game, voting randomly or self-voting is effectively denying others the info. And thus something the wolves would love to hide in if it was looked on as having no consequences. Therefore I'm actually half-serious in proposing we lynch Bom toDay.

The other thing that makes me half-serious with it, is what Bom has actually posted.

There are four posts by him.

In first (#22) he agrees with G55 (and all others) about the Acolyte discussion.

In the second one (#56) he says Rikae and G55 look innocentish, with no explanation whatsoever (well, he adds as a kind of softening that he finds G55 always innocent and wonders why is that). Then he does what I'd describe as piling onto the Leg/Zil -controversy saying that's the thing he finds interesting, though he will not himself have time to look at it.

In his third post (#64) he dislikes Greenie's vote but backtracks immediately saying he will not vote for Greenie as she will not be around to explain anymore.

Then he votes himself (#94) because "I don't seem to be in danger of being lynched".


The only problem I have with all this (and why I'm only half-serious) is that I'm afraid an innocent Bom could play just like this as well. And there are some I think we have some reasons to believe are not having our best in mind anyway. Heh, and I'm not so sure anymorfe why I used such a long time into this rant which begins with let's lynch Bom and then ends up with, well, maybe let's not... :(

Well, a fair 1½ hours until the DL. I'll try to make sense of a few things (Lommy-suspicion and Inzil's behaviour at least).

[Eönwë]

Steve - Was tending to think him more innocent than not until his most recent post against Inzil. A lot about that post looks odd, especially the timing of it.
What's odd about the timing? It's when I woke up to find that Zil had started a poorly-reasoned accusation of me.

[Thinlómien]

So, copypasted from Nerwen:

A Little Green ––> Boro
Lottie ––> Lommy
Bom Tombadillo ––> Self
Galadriel55 ––> Lommy (2)
Inziladun ––> Eönwë
Rikae ––> Inziladun
Sally ––> Eönwë (2)
Eruhen ––> Lommy (3)

...nice. I don't know where all this suspicion on Eönwë came from (to me he looks pretty harmless this far), also I find the size of the bulk of suspicion piled on me (ok I'll phrase it less poetically next time!) confuses me too. I can understand Lottie, who's been suspecting me quite consistently (although misguidedly), an even G55 follows a sort of line of thought but Eruhen? Where did that come from? That was pure bandwagoning, methinks.

Lommy, which of my points seem "weird" to you?Mostly it's this one: that the wolves would be afraid to give the villagers ideas. We have less knowledge than them (at least about who's who, possibly about the acolyte too if s/he's for example a sort of cursed), there's quite many more of us than of them and 90% of the time it's them who scheme and lie and do false reveals and stuff, not us. So it's unlikely they can accidentally give us ideas that we haven't thought of yet (because there are more of us thinking) and which we can put to use (because we are not likely to make some schemes including falsehoods that would profit from a prior speculation in any specific direction, also as we don't know who's who we have much harder time making a whole picture of the game). Furthermore, if a wolf said something that profited the village, s/he would immediately look more innocent to many, so it might even be a good idea for them. So I don't see why the wolves would be afraid of giving us ideas.

Then there's also your focus on mostly Legate-Zil back-and-forth (which ok maybe isn't a "point"), which feels sidetracked to me, maybe intentionally so. I don't understand how it became the major issue for toDay. (And this is not directed to just you, but to everybody.)

Legate, one thing I'd like to be clear about - if, as you say, you weren't accusing Zil when all this started, are you accusing him now or is your insistence merely scientific interest in his thought processes? :D:D

This is an awfully fervent announcement. I'm curious now, Lommy, of what you think of Bom's self-vote.You need to ask? Sorry, Bom, but your vote was ridiculous. If you're innocent, you're just playing for the wolves by 1) intentionally voting an innocent, 2) making an enigmatic vote which makes it harder for us to figure out whether you're innocent or not. You don't always have strong suspicions but you always have some, and you just have to act on them and stand behind them, even though you are wrong sometimes. Voting randomly (including randomly voting self) is just cowardly. Lastly, a piece of advice - next time remember you might not have been in danger of getting lynched but making a vote like that may make that danger actual by making people want to vote you.

End rant. If I put my principles aside, Bom's vote is not really anything I can make conclusions on, because it all comes down to whether Bom would dare to do something like that as a wolf or not. I don't know him well enough to say. (In this kind of cases, though, I tend to give people the benefit of doubt ie. assume their daring.)

Okay... Lottie's post was pretty obviously a joke to me, given that it's Lottie (and given the wink smiley.) So you're thinking it's Lottie, not Inzil who looks weird there? But I thought you were just thinking it was Inzil (see above)? If that's the case, then you look like you're scrambling to make the same evidence fit a different theory now that your first one's been debunked, if that makes sense. Right now, that looks bad.You quoted me yourself in an earlier post:
I'm not sure which is worse, Lottie pointing it out as a suspicious passage, or Zil implying it's a good point.
To me, they both looked suspicious in the beginning.

Lottie for making a playful (and thus easy to drop) accusation - I don't care if it was a joke, what matters is that she said it and she can't have been unconscious of the fact that she was portraying in a suspicious light something other people may latch on later. I do the same sometimes, I see something that looks a little like a slip to me and that I find funny, so I jokingly quote it - but I wouldn't draw attention to it if I found it 100% unsuspicious. That's why I think suspicions like that are never fully jokes, even when presented playfully.

As for Zil, I thought he read Lottie's playful accusation as a good point and was commenting on that when he said that it has now be proven something can be made out of the acolyte discussion. Turns out I was wrong, and he was referring to something else, so my suspicion on Zil based on the Pitch-Lottie-Zil was totally misguided as there was no Pitch-Lottie-Zil incident (except in my imagination), it was only a Pitch-Lottie incident. However that doesn't mean I'm not suspicious of Zil in general, because he has been acting weird [use of word intentional ;)].


edit: xed with Shasta's last, Nog and Steve

[Eönwë]

Also, I have about half an hour left to vote, so I'm going to need to make decision soon.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Last game was Pomegranate's first, as far as WW here, although I believe she said she was familiar with the premise of the game. Anyway, she definitely was in the "impressed me" group...oh maybe I shouldn't say that...makes me too nice still. :rolleyes:

Was not one of the frequent posters, but when she did it was always stocked to the brim with insight and good observations. Ahh, again, I really need to stop this complimenting thing...eh whatever, it's the truth.
Well, now you are jokingly putting yourself in the role of the one who is "made being nice", yet still doing the stuff, what am I supposed to make out of that? Are you trying to stick to it in order not to be ? I mean, I prefer civilized discussion to violent outbursts, but in a way it would make me much more comfortable if you'd, as we say in Khand, "show some guts, man..."

Legate, I didn't have to "lead by example" to move things away from the Acolyte: it happened on its own, and people started reacting to the two of us instead. I really didn't see it as all that complex.
All right. But I sincerely doubt that was your original plan. Also, I recall you having this cryptic line "so it serves also different purpose, interesting..." or something along these lines, it implied that you were surprised (or so it seemed to me) by that it stirred something else. Anyway, okay, if that was the point - however now of course I have to start wondering if this is not just secondary explanation of your behavior which you made up later (whereas of course then I'd have to ask myself what purpose did you originally have). All right all right, I think I could put this matter at rest finally, next time I'd like more clarity in your actions, though.

I've played one game with Pom/Nate, and she was innocent then. She proved herself to be a sharp player indeed.

That said, it's funny how the one post from her thus far was such a parroting of suspicion on someone who already has a vote.
This sounds a bit like Boro now, but whatever...

*sigh* Well, I'd say that I'm off for a bit and will return before bed with a vote, but I know how this works. I'm going to get caught up in whatever else I end up doing and forget to vote.

So. I've still got no suspicions great enough to act on, and I don't seem to be in danger of being lynched.

++Bom Tombadillo
I think Nogrod had just said the same thing I thought when I saw this vote - now whoever it was who had been criticising the "unnecessary" elaborations of mine and Nog's about the random votes, THIS is exactly the case. Okay, the vote is not "random" in its typical sense - but it is irresponsible, which is the point both me and Nog have raised in our posts very strongly. Okay, maybe it is responsible in the sense that Bom does not want to do "random harm", so he chooses himself instead. But still, it would have been far better if he could choose at least some "top" suspect. I mean, it's Day 1.

But it's also Bom and somehow I can accept this behavior from him. I would however strongly discourage this incident to repeat, especially not on further Day than Day 1...

During the Day I decided whom I'm not voting for. I don't know who I will vote for. Between Lommy and Boro (both of which, coincidentally, have votes) I am leaning more towards Lommy. My uneasiness with her comes from the content of what she said, whereas with Boro it is with how he says it. Yeah, I'll call that my final decision.
Just for further reference - I wonder if, in case Lommy is perchance innocent and Boro is perchance Wolf, there might not be attempt to save Boro by people voting Lommy. But that shall be seen.

- he pretty well answers that, in my opinion. So why mention it yet again? Legate, you do realize you've been doing basically the same thing as what you say Inzil's been doing, right?
Well possibly I did not see or understand that when he had said it last time - you understand what my point was, do you? My point was that I wanted him to answer why he proposed something yet failed to act on it. It was not suspicious behavior, it only bothered me because it did not make any sense. What I saw was this: You preach something but you don't act upon it, somebody points it out to you, yet you reply again with preaching and doing nothing, and not even reply about why you don't do anything. That fact - not answering - was the grain of the only suspicious thing I had found in the whole affair. Suspicious is when you start making up fake explanations of your actions or (as it had seemed to me in this case) avoiding giving explanations for them at all. That's in short the whole "case".

For now (see above) I take Inzil's explanation now that he had stated himself clearly, however, I still don't trust him completely as I am not sure whether it isn't just a post-made-explanation (see above again), but right now I am putting the thing more in the "odd" shelf than into "wolf" shelf, but I might still be watching him.

Okay - and that's it. So I think I will vote pretty close to DL, because exactly around DL I have to leave; but I will certainly hang around now, generally...

EDIT: x-ed after Nog's last

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Two more things. Sally looks actually rather fine to me now, and while I am slightly suspicious of Lommy, I would not want to lynch her toDay. Also, now looking at the tally, I seem to have missed Eruhen's vote and his reasoning for it. Need to check back.

[Thinlómien]

So, who I could vote

(well, basically anyone if it's between them and me)

but I'd like to vote

Eruhen - joining a bandwagon out of nowhere and leaving without an explanation could be an inexperienced wolf trying to make a safe vote while pressed by RL hurries.
Bom - but his might be pure malicious inspiration to teach him a lesson about self-voting. ;)
Lottie - I still don't like her comment about Pitch, and her misguided crsade against me and touchiness are also stuff I don't like.

or maybe

Boro - his reaction to the suspicions against him, the way he is apologetic, doesn't really sit right with me.
Sally - although I like the limericks she's not very silly, and her suspicions seem somehow half-hearted and lazy. There's something slightly fishy with her manner in this game.
G55 - doesn't really sit right with me, but this may well be knee-jerk.
Zil - is weird.
Pitch - is a little defensive, not very agreeable. Could be a Pitchwolf trying to change tactics? Something dishonest there maybe.


edit: xed with two legs (ha ha)

[Thinlómien]

Two more things. Sally looks actually rather fine to me now, and while I am slightly suspicious of Lommy, I would not want to lynch her toDay. Also, now looking at the tally, I seem to have missed Eruhen's vote and his reasoning for it. Need to check back.Don't bother, there was no reasoning (none at all). And why not vote me if you find me suspicious?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Don't bother, there was no reasoning (none at all). And why not vote me if you find me suspicious?

Yes, I just saw it, so now I understand why I haven't noticed it, since there is no explanation at all. I wouldn't mind that vote if it wasn't a part of this (currently biggest) bandwaggon.

I don't want to vote you now because I have better subjects to vote. I suspect you only a little, I said. Putting aside the reasons like that it won't be nice to vote you out since it's your first game after a while (and recalling stuff like last time Sally was lynched on her deathday :) etc), I maybe also wouldn't mind that much if the bandwagon for you did not look (especially with this random Eruhen voting) like some "save private Boro" attempt. Namely Boro would be one of these more likely candidates for voting (or in fact, THE candidate - I think I am going to vote him, not sure if there's anybody else, if I don't count Eruhen now or something, but then I'd like to hear his explanation etc first...)

[Nogrod]

Okay. It was a second post I wrote on Zil - and a second time I had to decide I will not post it (for a slightly different reason this time). You make me mad Inzil! And I kind of wish to join Rikae in checking your bluff.


So Lommy "stretches points", uses the word "weird" too often and "defends Pitch" (which is then corrected as a misunderstanding)? Her guilt seems only too obvious... :rolleyes:

I mean really?

So Eruhen's vote looks like bandwagoning in major scale and G55's a possible one. Actually, I found an interesting point from back there The only other person that is closer to being a suspect is Lommy. I've said very little about her, but there has been some talk about her with which I agree.That is said after she speculates whether Lottie or Boro might be wolves. Finally she decides to vote Lommy I am leaning more towards Lommy. My uneasiness with her comes from the content of what she said, whereas with Boro it is with how he says it. Yeah, I'll call that my final decision.So with the content "there has been some talk about" but which she is not opening up in any way...

I might be getting second thoughts about the sincerity of her outburst back there as this looks much like a wolf in trouble trying to find someone to vote.

[Thinlómien]

Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure it's not just something like "because it's your first game in a while" (as if I couldn't join the next one) or "because it's your birthday (as if I cared)... :)

edit: xed with Nog

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'll comment on the rest momentarily, but I want to get this thought out there as quickly as possible to give everyone time to consider - I would, personally, be not at all averse to lynching Bom. Think about it for a second - why, even beyond Legate's thought (which is currently the prevailing mood, sad as it is to say), I can nearly guarantee that later, down the road, someone will say "man I wish we could lynch Bom, but we can't now, it's too late in the game." Because, as I recall, Bom does this quite a bit, and people say exactly what has been said thus far - that is, chastising him for it but not really doing anything about it. Because the general opinion is either "oh that's just Bom" or "a wolf wouldn't do that, oh well."

So if people want to lynch Bom, I'm all for it. It's about time our threat of "participate or face a lynch" actually had some bite to it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure it's not just something like "because it's your first game in a while" (as if I couldn't join the next one) or "because it's your birthday (as if I cared)... :)

Although I do :) But yes, it is not the reason. I know better than that and I know that you wouldn't approve of such reasoning either ;)

And good reminder, for mentioning it, Nog - G55 was also one of those who gave me pause related to their choice of votes - or debate about it (well, I wrote about it earlier) - and would also be probably higher on the suspicion list than Lommy.

EDIT: x-ed with Shasta

[Thinlómien]

The only other person that is closer to being a suspect is Lommy. I've said very little about her, but there has been some talk about her with which I agree.This quote strikes me as terribly self-conscious. Why say "I've said very little about her" instead of "I have made very few suspicious observations of her on my own"? Innocents tend to keep track on what they have thought about others, wolves what they have said about others. I have to check the context of this because it basically rockets G55 towards the top of my suspicion list if the context doesn't clarify anything!

Although one point in G55's favour, Nog - innocents too need to find some people to vote for and sometimes it might feel as forced as it does when you're a wolf.


edit: xed with Shasta and Legate

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'll comment on the rest momentarily, but I want to get this thought out there as quickly as possible to give everyone time to consider - I would, personally, be not at all averse to lynching Bom. Think about it for a second - why, even beyond Legate's thought (which is currently the prevailing mood, sad as it is to say), I can nearly guarantee that later, down the road, someone will say "man I wish we could lynch Bom, but we can't now, it's too late in the game." Because, as I recall, Bom does this quite a bit, and people say exactly what has been said thus far - that is, chastising him for it but not really doing anything about it. Because the general opinion is either "oh that's just Bom" or "a wolf wouldn't do that, oh well."

So if people want to lynch Bom, I'm all for it. It's about time our threat of "participate or face a lynch" actually had some bite to it.

That's true. Still I am not sure if I wouldn't rather use the fact that I actually have a decent enough suspect on Day 1 and vote for that one... also in order to make things clearer. Bom's death won't, after all, show much (given that his interactions with people are... close to nil).

But yes... it has some merit, because again, when, if not toDay? Hm, I have to think about this...

EDIT: x-ed with Lommy

[Thinlómien]

Shasta - I see your point but wouldn't that be just lynching Bom because his playing style is confusing? That'd be a little mean.

edit: why do I keep xing with one-liners and other short posts? Weird.

[Thinlómien]

And I checked, G55's comment about me does not have any special context that would make it look better, it's from her post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667452&postcount=97)where she contempletes who to vote.

So out of thos who have received votes this far, I'd prefer Boro or maybe Bom, and out of everybody G55 or maybe Eruhen (I give Lottie that she is consistent, and explaining Shasta where my suspicion of her came from made me think the whole Lottie-Pitch from her pov and thus made me feel a little better about her).

[Shastanis Althreduin]

What's odd about the timing? It's when I woke up to find that Zil had started a poorly-reasoned accusation of me.
It looks odd that it's only after you start getting suspected and voted that you suddenly suspect Inzil as much as you did in that post. If you just woke up to find that, it's less odd (I honestly have no idea what timezone you're in, haha.)

If I put my principles aside, Bom's vote is not really anything I can make conclusions on, because it all comes down to whether Bom would dare to do something like that as a wolf or not. I don't know him well enough to say. (In this kind of cases, though, I tend to give people the benefit of doubt ie. assume their daring.)
That's precisely the point! :mad:

To me, they both looked suspicious in the beginning.

Lottie for making a playful (and thus easy to drop) accusation - I don't care if it was a joke, what matters is that she said it and she can't have been unconscious of the fact that she was portraying in a suspicious light something other people may latch on later. I do the same sometimes, I see something that looks a little like a slip to me and that I find funny, so I jokingly quote it - but I wouldn't draw attention to it if I found it 100% unsuspicious. That's why I think suspicions like that are never fully jokes, even when presented playfully.
That's fair. But I'm not sure you realize that Lottie does that all the time. Again, that's getting into playstyle differences. But it's a point regardless.

All right. But I sincerely doubt that was your original plan. Also, I recall you having this cryptic line "so it serves also different purpose, interesting..." or something along these lines
That line has since been explained. See Lommy and Zil's conversation.
But it's also Bom and somehow I can accept this behavior from him. I would however strongly discourage this incident to repeat, especially not on further Day than Day 1...
And another point I was trying to make. Why should this kind of behavior be acceptable from anyone, no matter who? And you can "strongly discourage" all you like - it's not going to change anything. It never has.

Well possibly I did not see or understand that when he had said it last time - you understand what my point was, do you? My point was that I wanted him to answer why he proposed something yet failed to act on it. It was not suspicious behavior, it only bothered me because it did not make any sense. What I saw was this: You preach something but you don't act upon it, somebody points it out to you, yet you reply again with preaching and doing nothing, and not even reply about why you don't do anything.
No, I understood that. I was just wondering if you saw that every time Inzil answered with the same answer, you responded again with the same question.

For now (see above) I take Inzil's explanation now that he had stated himself clearly, however, I still don't trust him completely as I am not sure whether it isn't just a post-made-explanation (see above again), but right now I am putting the thing more in the "odd" shelf than into "wolf" shelf, but I might still be watching him.
Uh-huh, and that leads back to the "witchhunt" I was mentioning earlier. Just what explanation would have satisfied you? Because it looks to me like you were prepared to be dissatisfied by anything Inzil said.

Shasta - I see your point but wouldn't that be just lynching Bom because his playing style is confusing? That'd be a little mean.
No, it'd be a wake-up call. No one should be allowed to slip through without participating and voting. People can say "oh, well, they didn't deserve to win" all they like when someone who just floats through the game ends up living to the end (because if they're wolves no one wants to lynch them because of lack of evidence and if they're innocent the wolves won't kill them because they're not doing anything) - it doesn't change the facts that they won, and we let them by allowing them to do so.

[Pomegranate]

Huh. Just finished reading all that has been said so far. First:


Originally Posted by Pomegranate
Love to Nogrod for

, this relatively new linguistics student got all excited about that point. I think that sounded genuine, though I haven't played with this active Nogrod and I'm assuming he's just the same when he's a wolf. Just as convincing, that is. And I actually do think that there was enough discussion on random votes so that any will now seem relatively suspicious.
(emphasis mine)

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but could you clarify what you meant by the bolded bit?

On the only time I played with Nogrod, he was quiet during the first day and was killed on the night after that (hence “active Nogrod”). That is, I don’t know his “normal habits” in WW. However, based on what I know about Nogrod from other sources, I do believe he can sound genuine if he wants to, whether he is or isn’t, and because of that I don’t want to put him into any innocent-pile.

And my first post was mainly gut-feelings, stuff that came in mind while reading the whole conversation through, so I wouldn’t say “over-confidence”. But Boro is definitely acting differently than in the one game I played with him. I don’t think I even need to be particularly sharp to notice that.

I’ll be reading Legate’s posts over now, I think people have had valid points against him but I want to read his case through myself.

x/ed with Lommy's second and Shasta

[Nogrod]

Well Shasta, you put us in dire straits as to whether act like we say we should act or hunker down wishing for a better result and ignoring the principle. I'm really torn with it. The chances he's a wolf are what the pure chances are 4/16, but you're right that if we don't do it toDay, we will be cursing it later (supposing he continues the same way) when we don't feel any more we can afford checking him.

On other thoughts. Despite my initial gut feeling about G55's outburst I'd say she's quite high on my list.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well, with Lommy looking a little better now that I know where she was coming from re: Lottie, I'm going to put my money (or in this case, vote) where my mouth is.

++Bom

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

And I checked, G55's comment about me does not have any special context that would make it look better, it's from her post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667452&postcount=97)where she contempletes who to vote.
Hm, yes, that one does look bad.

And another point I was trying to make. Why should this kind of behavior be acceptable from anyone, no matter who? And you can "strongly discourage" all you like - it's not going to change anything. It never has.
Yes, well, the proof lies right here, right... well I would go for that, if it comes to that, but if any of my "more actual" suspects (Boro, possibly now G55) seems possible to get lynched, I would prefer them.


No, I understood that. I was just wondering if you saw that every time Inzil answered with the same answer, you responded again with the same question.
Yes, I asked once again the same thing because it seemed to me he did not answer. As I said above, I think I've now said that a couple of times too already.

Uh-huh, and that leads back to the "witchhunt" I was mentioning earlier. Just what explanation would have satisfied you? Because it looks to me like you were prepared to be dissatisfied by anything Inzil said.
Well when I think of it, in some way I probably would: there is no explanation I can think of - after all, that's why I started asking him in the first place! I was hoping he has some explanation I did not think of, something logical. This obviously is not, or not entirely - well, what I said. But for now, it is all just one mark on his wall, so to say. I will see what he does otherwise.

EDIT: x-ed after Shasta

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ok - I think I should vote soon, probably longer before DL, since I should leave this computer also before DL (am I right in that it's in like 20 minutes?). Right now: even though I would very very very much like to see Boro lynched, I am considering Shasta's proposal; it's nothing against nothing (as we say in Khand): meaning about as much that I agree with doing that, I won't feel remorse after that (not remorse about lynching Bom, even if he was innocent, but more like remorse about not lynching e.g. Boro or Gal - we can still do that on future Days and right now I would very much encourage doing that, in case I don't survive the Night)...

Let's see if I crossposted with any votes and then I might go and post mine, likely for Bom, then.

[Thinlómien]

Hmm. As much as I'd like to get G55 lynched now, I must say it starts to look like wishful thinking. It'd basically mean all of us (Moi, Nog, Leg, Pom) vote for her, and I am not sure we all agree...?

So, are you three up for a last minute bandwagon? :p Or Pitch, in case you're back?

If not, I'm afraid I will have to think about my own safety, and go for Bom. I'd rather vote him than anyone else with one or two votes (after what Shasta said, although it is a little harsh, I right now consider it better to give Boro the benefit of doubt and vote Bom - but I could be persuaded to think otherwise as I have very mixed feelings about lynching Bom).


edit. xed with Il Legate

[Nogrod]

Okay.

I might vote for G55 or Boro, possibly Eruhen.

Or then I might go after Shasta and vote Bom.


PS. Let's avoid the last minute frenzy if possible. The possibility of multiple lynches is a bit too pressing in this game.

[Thinlómien]

PS. Yes, it's now 17 min to the DL...


edit: xed again, this time with Noggers

[Shastanis Althreduin]

You're right, Lommy, it is a little harsh. However, I, personally, feel like it's something that has to happen at least once, or nothing will ever change.

[Thinlómien]

You're right, Lommy, it is a little harsh. However, I, personally, feel like it's something that has to happen at least once, or nothing will ever change.If you were a wolf and Bom an innocent, this would be very mean you know...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm. As much as I'd like to get G55 lynched now, I must say it starts to look like wishful thinking. It'd basically mean all of us (Moi, Nog, Leg, Pom) vote for her, and I am not sure we all agree...?
She can always be lynched toMorrow, and there will be also more from her to read, she can respond to the critique etc... although of course we should beware of the "drop the person who survived the lynch from your suspect list" syndrom which appears from time to time, if you know what I mean...

The same goes for Eruhen (!). Explanation of vote toMorrow, please!

And okay, last look at posts and then I will probably vote Bom.

EDIT: x-ed since the quoted post

[Thinlómien]

Pom? You're aware there's only 13 more minutes? Who are you planning to vote?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

If you were a wolf and Bom an innocent, this would be very mean you know...

It's mean regardless of what I am. I know that. And I'm sure I'll change my tune once Bom proves that he's capable of actually participating in a game he signs up for. That doesn't really change anything.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

As the responsible representative of Khand and its khan, the mighty Khan Bungo; in his place and as the representative of the voice of all his khandahar, I therefore cast my vote for:

++Bom

(Howgh.)

[Eönwë]

I don't really find Lommy suspicious enough to vote, so

++Bom

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

If you were a wolf and Bom an innocent, this would be very mean you know...

That had also crossed my mind, but well, then I thought to myself, if Shasta is a wolf and is orchestrating this lynch all by himself, it's a pretty bold move and in any case, we can analyse Shasta later on if he seems to act manipulatively or something.

[Nerwen]

Update:

A Little Green ––> Boro
Lottie ––> Lommy
Bom Tombadillo ––> Self
Galadriel55 ––> Lommy (2)
Inziladun ––> Eönwë
Rikae ––> Inziladun
Sally ––> Eönwë (2)
Eruhen ––> Lommy (3)
Shasta ––> Bom(2)
Legate ––> Bom(3)
Eönwë ––> Bom(4)

[Nogrod]

ARRGGHH I got an important phonecall to distract me...


Well.

++ Bom

[Pomegranate]

I am aware and reading, you guys are just so active that it takes me ages to catch up :P Thanks to some things Shasta said about the bandwagon against Inzil I'm getting a bad feeling about Legate. And I still feel strange about Boro. I think I'm going for Legate even though it's slightly irresponsible from me since it won't get him killed, but I don't have any other leads right now and I don't feel that either Bom or G55 deserve the playing-style lynch.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I don't really find Lommy suspicious enough to vote, so

++Bom

This is more interesting... just who did Eonwe originally say he'd vote? (I don't recall now, not sure if it was Bom. Okay, checking -it wasn't.)

Given that he had said like an hour ago that he has half an hour during which you want to decide whom to vote... you were just sitting around and doing nothing? Okay, great time to start discussion... okay, let's let it be and let people vote for now... but! Noting this for the future Days...

EDIT: xed since my last. And now I am going, good voting and good Night!

[Thinlómien]

if Shasta is a wolf and is orchestrating this lynch all by himselfThat would be pretty darn cool. :D

++Bom

We don't want a tie and die, do we, precious?


edit: xed with everybody after the Supreme Goddess

[Pitchwife]

I didn't like the acolyte discussion because it meant everyone could hide under the veil of "This discussion is better than nothing, at least later we can look back on it" (see my earlier post (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667399&postcount=52)). I'm still not sure what Inzil was getting at, but by reiterating his side so many times, he gave more justification for people to argue the side that already has general consensus, and so no, I didn't like that because it gives the wolves a place to hide.
That's as may be, but Zil's reiterating was prompted by repeated questions from Legate, so it seems unfair to blame him alone for the change in the discussion.
Just because something doesn't automatically make him evil, it doesn't mean I have to like what he's doing, does it?
No, it doesn't, but poking someone again and again over a point so you can then complain that he's "reiterating his side" and starting a pointless discussion doesn't look particularly innocent either. OK, Legate did the poking and you the complaining, but you're using the controversy between them to paint Zil as suspicious by blaming the whole controversy on him, while it took two to keep it going. If you think this is misrepresenting you, so be it, but it's the best I have toDay.

Therefore,
++Eönwë

In other news, I'm not happy with Bom's Nilp-vote, quite happy with Lottie's rant defending herself against Nog, a little puzzled by this sudden Lommywagon, and too pressed for time to make up my mind about the rest. Á vala Melkor!


(EDIT: x-ed with the whole Bomwagon)

[Pomegranate]

++Legate toMorrow I'll try to be sharper (;))

[Nogrod]

G55 and Boro do post and they can be read - and Eruhen has said all the time he was busy - so he'll have a chance to explain him toMorrow. So I think we are making a decent decision.

PS. Pom, was that a vote? (EDIT: I can see it corrected now...)

EDIT2: seems like I have parroted almost everything Legate had already said earlier... blah.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

This is more interesting... just who did Eonwe originally say he'd vote?

Steve was talking about voting for Inzil, I think.

[Nerwen]

Deadline. The Empress's ghost commands you to cease posting!

Bom is dead. Narration to follow.

[Nerwen]

The Empress's death had thrown the Palace into chaos. Guests, courtiers and servants alike clamoured to accuse one another.

"It's the Fool from Umbar, I'd stake the Imperial Hoard on it!" declared the venerable Treasurer, Inziladun. "None of us have ever seen him before, after all!"

"No, no, it's me!" the beggar Bom piped up from his corner. "Not only am I afflicted with every disease or deformity known to Man or any other species, I'm also mad! Mad, I tell you! Lynch me at once! Or give me alms, whichever."

Everyone ignored him.

"What about Court Physician Thinlomien?" suggested Lottie, the sorcerer's apprentice. "Her Imperial Splendour trusted her– and I'm sure she has all kinds of knives and scapels and things. In fact, I could cast a divining spell on her–"

A chorus of voices pleaded with her to do no such thing– Lottie's attempts at spellcasting had been known to backfire rather disastrously– but nonetheless more than one person agreed with her.

"Grief for the death of our fair Empress has consumed me, along with preparations for her pyre," said Chief Eunuch Eruhen, "but I believe there's much in what you say."

"Yes..." breathed G55, in a sinister whisper, staring fixedly at Lommy's throat. "Perhaps someone should...deal with her, in her turn..."

"I don't believe this!" Lommy spluttered. "Me! Who has made healing her life's work! If you ask me G55 did the deed! She's an assassin, after all!"

Nonetheless, things were looking very black for Lommy, until Shasta stepped in.

"Nonsense. It *is* that so-called beggar! How better to put us off our guard?"

Many of the company were struck with this notion, and Bom was dragged to the execution-block, protesting all the way that he hadn't meant it, and that anyway he was suffering from terminal hayfever. The Executioner being, unaccountably, nowhere to be found, they took turns stabbing him. As Lommy dealt the final blow with surgical precision, the beggar's scrawny frame gave one last shudder and went limp.

The survivors looked on expectantly, but nothing happened.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Living
Boromir88 –Wealthy mûmak breeder.
Sally –Messenger girl.
Galadriel55 –Professional assassin.
Shasta –Particularly attentive guard-lieutenant.
Steve –Court Jester (from Umbar).
Pomegranate –Entertainer.
A Little Green –The Empress's favourite snake-charmer.
Rikae –Empress's handmaiden.
Eruhen –Court eunuch.
Pitchwife –Captain in the "Provisional Royal Númenórean Navy" and emissary of Angamaitë IX, Lord of Umbar.
Lottie –Accident-prone sorcerer's apprentice.
Inziladun –Minister of the Treasury.
Lommy! –Court physician.
Nogrod –Camel and coffee trader.
Legate of Amon Lanc –Legate of Khand.

Dead
The Empress of Harad. Mod. –assassinated in her sleep.
Bom Tombadillo –Greatly afflicted beggar. Ordo. –multiple stab wounds.

Night Two has begun.

[Nerwen]

Drums beat slowly as the royal mûmakil, their tusks encased in beaten gold, dragged the Empress's bier into the Palace's central courtyard.

After Chief Eunuch Eruhen had extolled the late monarch's many virtues, ending with the confident anticipation that She Who Once Was Brighter than the Moon would now take her rightful place among the gods, and A Little Green, to the accompaniment of Pomegranate's mournful flute, had performed her sinuous ritual dance with the sacred serpents twining about her, a troop of fine young slaves of both sexes reverently lifted the bier and carried it to the top of the immense funeral pyre. The slaves, whom Eruhen had selected for their comeliness, then made ten circuits of the pyre, one for each year that the Empress had reigned, before being sacrificed in the proper manner. (The assassin Galadriel55 made a more-than adequate replacement for the still-missing Royal Executioner.)

Finally, Eruhen leant forward from his balcony above, and hurled a lighted torch onto the pyre. The oil-soaked wood quickly caught, and soon a wall of flames and coiling smoke hid the Empress from the eyes of her grieving subjects.

Although, with the Palace sealed to aid in the hunt for the murderers, the funeral was more modest and less well-attended than might otherwise have been expected, everyone agreed it was a most satisfying and artistic ceremony. The crowning moment came when Eruhen, in an unheralded departure from the programme, cast himself off the balcony onto the blaze that consumed his mistress's body. This was generally held to be a most touching act of loyalty, though there were those who, claiming to have seen a shadow moving on the curtain behind him, firmly believed he had been pushed.

It was all a great mystery.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I'll tell you what else is a mystery," said one of the spies later, when the four were again gathered at their nightly meeting-place. "That handmaiden, Rikae– she's pretty enough, and a personal slave of the Empress– why wasn't she sacrificed along with the others? I know how these Southrons do things."

"I think you've been in Harad far too long."

"Did I say I approved, you fool? There's more to that girl than meets the eye, I'm telling you. Did any of you ever see her before this morning?"

"What matters this?" said a third member of the group. "Our only concern now is escaping the Palace–"

"Which we're not likely to do if it turns out we're suspected. That girl is more than she seems, and I believe she may know something."

"Very well, then," the other agreed. "I suppose talking to her can't do any harm..."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Rikae leapt to her feet, clutching her silken robe about her. "Who are you?" she demanded of the four strangers who had entered her sleeping-chamber. "What do you want of me?"

"Now, now, my lady, we just want to ask you a few questions–"

"Ask me questions? Ask me questions?" Rikae's thin smile was barely visible, but the loop of wire she held glittered in the faint moonlight. "Oh no. I believe it is I should who ask questions of you! I know you for what you are! Spies! Northern fiends! Murderers of She Who Now Walks Among the Gods!"

The smile became a baring of teeth, and with a cry of fury and bloodlust, Rikae launched herself at them.

The struggle was fierce, but in the end one of the spies managed to wrest the garotte away from Rikae. This merely sent her into a frenzy of kicking and biting. It was never quite clear what happened then, but suddenly the girl's thrashing ceased and her body sagged in their grasp. When they finally managed to get a candle lit, it was to find Rikae with staring eyes and swollen tongue, the wire pulled so tight around her throat it had almost disappeared into her flesh.

Rikae, the Royal Executioner, had suffered the same death she had dealt to so many others.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Living
Boromir88 –Wealthy mûmak breeder.
Sally –Messenger girl.
Galadriel55 –Professional assassin.
Shasta –Particularly attentive guard-lieutenant.
Steve –Court Jester (from Umbar).
Pomegranate –Entertainer.
A Little Green –The Empress's favourite snake-charmer.
Pitchwife –Captain in the "Provisional Royal Númenórean Navy" and emissary of Angamaitë IX, Lord of Umbar.
Lottie –Accident-prone sorcerer's apprentice.
Inziladun –Minister of the Treasury.
Lommy! –Court physician.
Nogrod –Camel and coffee trader.
Legate of Amon Lanc –Legate of Khand.

Dead
The Empress of Harad. Mod. –assassinated in her sleep.
Bom Tombadillo –Greatly afflicted beggar. Ordo. –multiple stab wounds.
Eruhen –Court eunuch. Ordo. –burned to death on the Empress's funeral pyre.
Rikae –Empress's handmaiden. Royal Executioner. –garotted with own wire.

Day Two has begun.

[Thinlómien]

Nerwen, was Eruhen modfired (perhaps upon request), or is his death really a mystery?

Anyway the situation doesn't look too good right now, with one extra death and the hunter gone without a wolf (although that tends to happen more often that way).

I can't come up with an idea why Rikae right now, I'll have a look at her posts later. Right now I have an already belated essay to finish (oops), I'll be back when I have time.

[Nerwen]

Nerwen, was Eruhen modfired (perhaps upon request), or is his death really a mystery?
Not telling.:p

[Galadriel55]

So the alcolyte is some kind of werebear. *sigh* May the victims of the Night's terror rest in peace.

Edit: xed with Nerwen and Lommy

[Nogrod]

So Rikae was the hunter, but if she was to be a logical-hunter by Night, then she didn't take Eruhen with her? So what happened?

This was generally held to be a most touching act of loyalty, though there were those who, claiming to have seen a shadow moving on the curtain behind him, firmly believed he had been pushed.

It was all a great mystery.Even if some of you dislike it a little excursion into the Acolyte might be in order? (Yeah, let's not discuss it all Day)

So the Acolyte makes her/his own kills? Every Night? (Werebear kind of person) That sounds a bit too devastating as there are already four wolves. But then again the fact that the Acolyte is not counted as either in the tallies might back this kind of interpretation... So is there actually a way we could turn the Acolyte to our side? I mean many people (myself included) were discussing about things like the Acolyte choosing or being given side in one or other way at some point, but is there actually any reason to believe that is the case in things Nerwen has written?

Or did Eruhen just sign off?


EDIT: X'd with everyone...

[Galadriel55]

This is something I wrote yesterday (last Night) after catching up on the game thread (you Europeans talk a lot). It's a pattern I noticed that did not look good not one bit to me. It's about Nog's "weird" (mark the vocabulary) change of mind regarding my outburst. I know it's lame to write an analysis about a discussion about you... but I really don't like this. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GO THROUGH THE PILE OF "EVIDENCE", SKIP TO MY SUMMARY AT THE END.

Your reaction though, it was unexpected seeing from you, because it was like reading one of my rants. "If you suspect me then suspect me!" And really over something that's normal, "Hey Rikae, what do you think about sally?" I can understand boiling over frustrations, but that was an immediate, highly-dramatic reaction.

And this:


"If you suspect her, than say so," but honestly, you're just using the semantics over question-phrasing to defend your reaction as perhaps over-the-top, but an un-wolvish one. So, I'll say it. Looks suspicious.

Well, Boro doesn’t like it.

Galadriel looked a bit whimsy to begin with but her defence of herself looks pretty genuine.

And Nog’s ok with it.

What bothers me about Boro is the way he painted G55 suspicious. To me her strong reaction to Rikae's question for Lottie looked very sincere indeed (as I said already back there). So Boro's attack looked to me like a wolf noticing a possible pray who has made herself vulnerable, and jumping for it. It's hard to see evil in a game, but it felt like a malvolent intent there.

And lookee – again.

#73 – Steve says I seem innocent so far.

G55's outburst against Rikae feels pretty genuine to me, and I don't quite get what Boro thinks was so over-the-top about it - I mean, if she had the impression that Rikae was trying to suggest Lottie suspect her, being outraged is an understandable reaction; and as Rikae's post looks just like that on the surface, who's to blame her. (Only, knowing Rikae a bit, that would have been remarkably unsubtle.)

Pitchie agrees.

Well. Didn't look genuine to me. And perhaps I shouldn't look at it through my eyes, but I've done the same thing time and time again when I've been a wolf. Get too dramatic over the slightest of things. Not that G55 was faking being angry, but playing up being angry to hopefully get suspicion off her. As if her honor had been impugned. I've literally done the same thing, indignicantly objecting to people beating around the bush..."If you suspect me then suspect me!" stuff.

And her defense for the rant comes dow to semantics, not liking the way Rikae phrased the question to Lottie. Now tell me if you think overly-dramatic reactions to stuff like word definitions and the way questions are phrased is genuine?

In reply to Nog saying I sounded genuine. (Nog answers in #81 – and sticks to his original thought – and I’m putting this as a sidenote that’s not in chronological order)

G55 jumps, but it seems genuine and I won't hold it against her this time, realising it's probably pretty typical of her.

Once again. Up to now, Boro is alone in suspecting me over the outburst. But along comes Shasta…

G55's post #39 is an incredible overreaction (and yes, that's coming from me, no one's allowed to laugh :p.) But really, asking someone what they think of you isn't tantamount to "here, make this point against this person for me."

Overreaction, overdramatic. Supports Boro in this.

...You're kidding. Who are you and what have you done with Nogrod?! That's so unlike what you'd normally say that I'm almost forced to look for a reason why you'd be protecting G55.

Shasta continues to echo Boro, this time in asking Nog why he thinks the outburst was genuine. He says Pitch is ok with thinking so, but not Nog (well, duh, they are different!).

Leaning Innocent:
Boro - Two major reasons: one, I agree with him regarding G55; two, he's getting what seems to be a rather large amount of suspicion from people I'm currently suspicious of.

...

Leaning Guilty:
G55 - I was fine with her until she exploded earlier. After that, I felt like her clarification of said explosion was basically used to make people more confident of her innocence ("A wolf wouldn't act like that," etc).

Nogrod - I admit, most of the reason he's in this category is his apparent connection to G55, whom I also find suspicious. His reaction to and subsequent defense of her was so incredibly counter to normal Nogrod that I just can't see that being his real thoughts on the matter.

My, he’s serious. :p

G55 - doesn't really sit right with me, but this may well be knee-jerk.

Lommy decides I'm suspicious enough to be her votee. This is unrelated to the outburst, but it does affect the general mood.

Up to this point everyone holds their original opinion (excepting possibly the posts at the very beginning of the Day – much has changed since, and there’s good reason for opinions to change, so I’m not counting those).

So Eruhen's vote looks like bandwagoning in major scale and G55's a possible one. Actually, I found an interesting point from back there That is said after she speculates whether Lottie or Boro might be wolves. Finally she decides to vote Lommy So with the content "there has been some talk about" but which she is not opening up in any way...

I might be getting second thoughts about the sincerity of her outburst back there as this looks much like a wolf in trouble trying to find someone to vote.

And Nog does a Legate-180. Why all of a sudden? Because there's more support for this option at the moment?

There certainly is support for lynching me. See: Legate - #125, Lommy - #126 and #129. And Nog’s post again:

On other thoughts. Despite my initial gut feeling about G55's outburst I'd say she's quite high on my list.

Legate @ #134 briefly, Lommy @ #136

I might vote for G55 or Boro, possibly Eruhen.

Or then I might go after Shasta and vote Bom.


Nog ends up voting Bom (#148). And at the very end of the Day:

G55 and Boro do post and they can be read - and Eruhen has said all the time he was busy - so he'll have a chance to explain him toMorrow. So I think we are making a decent decision.




Apologies for so many quotes, but now you know I’m not making this up. To shorten the post instead of quoting everything I just gave references to the more general things.

What bothers me is Nog’s flipfloppiness (does this run in the family? :p). In all seriousness, though – he starts out standing his ground against Boro, and keeps this up while the general mood is leaning towards me being innocent (Boro is clearly outnumbered). But then Shasta consistently and persistently sides with Boro, and Lommy joins in saying I’m not that shiny. And only now Nog has second thoughts about my outburst, and decides that it didn’t actually look good, and that my vote wasn’t well-explained either, and all that. And as the support for this keeps up, he repeats it more often.

Though when the village doesn’t actually end up lynching me, he backs off and says that it’s better that Bom is lynched.

While writing this, I had some thoughts that maybe the Empress put a cobbler in the game accidentally. I mean, I've never played with Nogwolf, but from what I heard he's as subtle as he could get. Did he expect that such an obvious thing would go unnoticed? And still, I don't think he'd flipflop like that as an innocent either.

Boro and Shasta claim that the "weird" thing is that he actually thought me innocent at first. I don't get why that's weird, but I guess it's just not like him to support emotional outbursts. And this is another thing.

Nog, you're #1 on my suspicion list.



And saying that, my participation will be very limited toDay - hence I wrote this last Night, to save time and give you time to think.

[Thinlómien]

Or perhaps the acolyte murders someone on Night2 and assumes their role. I'm 90% sure we don't have a werebear-type guy among us since we already have four wolves.

(now going, seriously...)


edit: xed with Gal

[Thinlómien]

And saying that, my participation will be very limited toDay - hence I wrote this last Night, to save time and give you time to think.Sure, but I sill don't like the fact you were so sure about your survival that you wrote that overNight. Also, I'll let Nogrod answer for himself ;) but to me his change of opinion yesterDay looked like genuine unsure rethinking (whether it was innocent or a wolf doing the rethinking). Now this is the last time I say I'm going. See you guys later.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Not telling.:p
Great :rolleyes:

Okay, I have no idea about this, normally I would regard it as modfire (on personal request, perhaps?), but the mystery air is annoying. I don't believe in any Werebear - what Lommy said: it wouldn't make any sense. This:

Or perhaps the acolyte murders someone on Night2 and assumes their role. I'm 90% sure we don't have a werebear-type guy among us since we already have four wolves.
actually sounds plausible; but I would not draw too many conclusions. I think maybe we can leave this be for now and see what happens the next Night. Because I am not sure if we can actually get anything right now from speculating about it - we probably can't figure out anything certain, and we probably won't be able to use the information in any way. I think after next Night or narration we might be wiser. At least I don't think the world will crumble upon us if we don't know what the Angband was it about for one more day (and if it does, again, I think we can't really do much about it anyway).

It is at least clear (given that the Hunter is logical by Night according to the rules) that Eruhen wasn't Rikae's hunting pick.

And Nog does a Legate-180. Why all of a sudden? Because there's more support for this option at the moment?
Well, I can see where you are coming from, but it isn't like that he would straightaway turn his opinion on the outburst itself - in the part you quote he says the reason for his suspicion of you is your vote. Which was also what made for example me consider you more, too. But yes, it might seem a bit sinister.

Shall be still around later with more...

EDIT: x-ed with Lommy. Haha.

[Pomegranate]

To me, it would seem from the narration, that Eruhen's death was indeed a mystery, and if that be the case, perhaps linked to the acolyte. Leaving it open like that would suggest that there's something going on in the palace that we don't know about, and so far, acolyte is the most obvious guess to that.

Looking into Rikae is something that definitely needs to be done. However, we should also look into Bom's lynch yesterday. True, there was reason enough for any annoyed goodie to vote for him, but it is pretty certain that there's wolves there as well, excited about the easy ordo-lynch. The votes from yesterday, in order of casting:

Greenie -> Boro
Lottie ->Lommy
Bom ->Bom
G55->Lommy (2)
Inzil->Eonwe
Rikae->Inzil
Sally->Eonwe
Eru->Lommy (3)
Shasta->Bom (2)
Legate->Bom (3)
Nogrod->Bom (4)
Eonwe->Bom (5)
Lommy->Bom (6)
Pitch->Eonwe (2)
Pom->Legate

Now, as everyone kept saying yesterNight (can you put it like that?) Shasta was the one to start the actual bandwaggon against Bom, after suspecting around. However, it's worth noticing that he wasn't the first one to suggest it, even though he was the first to actually give his vote to Bom. First one was Nogrod.

If anyone is willing to help Bom with his suicide I'd be happy to lend a hand there. :mad:

So, we ranted too little about these no-trace votes (or we should have made the rant wider). I mean a self vote is as bad as a declared random vote in that they result in the same: there's no way of saying whom the person really wished to vote for (or whom he didn't want to vote) - or whom he faked wishing to vote for or not to vote for. Declared intentions concerning one's votes + the votes themselves are the bread and butter of this game, voting randomly or self-voting is effectively denying others the info. And thus something the wolves would love to hide in if it was looked on as having no consequences. Therefore I'm actually half-serious in proposing we lynch Bom toDay.

The other thing that makes me half-serious with it, is what Bom has actually posted.



(#113)

During his post he actually kind of talked himself out of it, but somehow it seemed more that he was giving the bait and hoping someone would go with it. And when Shasta did decide that he wants Bom lynched, Nogrod started to show his uncertainty, but then decided to go for Bom when there was a lot of people after him. His vote was the one which raised Bom’s votes higher than Lommy’s.

Continuing in a bit, this was the most striking thing for me, now hunting for more.

x/ed with everyone after Nerwen's #160

[Nogrod]

Is it a totally alien concept to you G55 that people can change their minds, especially if they are given reasons for it? (I know there are people who stick to their beliefs whatever the case, or even if reality proves them wrong time after time, but that is a discussion on politics and religion I'm not willing to engage here.)

Well, anyway, you actually do quote my post where I explain my change of heart. I mean the sudden Lommywagon did raise some eyebrows and when I read your post where you explained your... well what could it be, change of heart (? :)) to suddenly suspect Lommy when she started gathering suspicion... well that made me suspect you - and thus to reconsider the innocence of your outburst as well.

It was not only the fact that you suddenly jumped on the fast-emerging Lommy-train, but the way you did it. (Explained in my #122)

Heh, I saw Lommy posted about you confidence of being alive, to write such a strong "defence by attack" I'd say, so I'm not going to say anything more about it.


Okay. I also have a host of things to do, but will take a quick look at Rikae before I go.


EDIT: X'd with a few it seems

[Pitchwife]

Three of us dead already, and the hunter among them? Blargh.

I'll be getting to Rikae in a moment, but first things first: that was one of the most useless D1 lynches ever.

It's not like I can't empathize to some degree with being annoyed by Bom and wanting to set an example, but what exactly was that supposed to accomplish? I mean, you said it yourselves:
Bom's death won't, after all, show much (given that his interactions with people are... close to nil).
and
The chances he's a wolf are what the pure chances are 4/16
and you still decide he's the best lynch choice? After ranting at such length against random votes? How was picking Bom any better?

Yes, I know, lynch a submarine on D1 if there's no better choice, and if it has to be done, better now than later, but after all of yesterDay's controversy, was there really no better choice?

Or was there a wolf getting heat who had to be saved?

Shasta was the one to start the actual bandwaggon against Bom, after suspecting around. However, it's worth noticing that he wasn't the first one to suggest it, even though he was the first to actually give his vote to Bom. First one was Nogrod.
That's actually a good find.

His vote was the one which raised Bom’s votes higher than Lommy’s.
No, your vote list is confused there; Eönwë's vote was the fourth for Bom and came before Nog's.

[Nogrod]

So looking after what might have made the wolves pick Rikae... (I'm only looking at those posts where she voices suspicion or dissatisfaction to some as I don't have time for a "full analysis")

I don't much care for Inzil and Bom's empty posts, Gal's banter... which does look odd... and Green's post that points out its oddness. Yep, I contradict myself, I contain multitudes, etc.
Inzil, as I said, I agree with Legate. Posts that demand people work on catching wolves, rather than work on it themselves, are empty posts.

If you're looking for people who aren't making useful posts, Lottie, I wonder: what do you think of Galadriel55?
I'm well aware of the risk of lynching an innocent who happens to look "odd" on day one. In fact, I'd suggest it may be more logical to leave Inzil alone for toDay precisely because he has made himself a target.

Galadriel, I'm sorry if I offended you. I can be insensitive at times. However, if you'll look again at my post, it implies just as much about Lottie and her consistency as it does about you, and as forIf you don't like the way I post, say so.
... I did.
Now Inzil, come out and claim what you're trying to claim so we can all see how implausible it really is!
did Inzil really join Lottie's "suspicion" (which I took as a joke) of Pitch for his "manage to", or no? I don't see where he did. Where is this coming from, otherwise?

Also, I'd like to point out that if Nogrod is innocent he will decide that I'm guilty at some point and that I have some complicated scheme up my sleeve that only Nogrod could invent.
If he fails to do so, I'll suspect him.
Greenie's vote for Boro looks more or less ok to me, precisely because it is so out-of-the-blue and gut-feelingish, if you get what I mean. Not to say that it's wabbit season or anything, but Greenie herself seems all right.

Eönwë is sort of blending into the background, and he seems to be doing it by hanging around in the thicket of meta-discussion, poking at multiple people while refraining from singling anyone out in a way that might attract too much attention. I'm going to keep my eye on him.
Haha, I just realized I mistook a coyote for a wabbit... that could be a dangerous mistake!
I'm going to bed and unlikely to be back again before DL, so I'm going to be with my original suspicion... I was going to vote for someone else, but the recent posts from

++Inzil

have a bad vibe to them, as if he's confident that he shifted the focus and can see one of the other suspects lynched. An innocent who dodged suspicion might be relieved, but would still be concerned about placing his own vote correctly and finding the actual wolves, and the tone of his posts seems off in light of that. In addition to my earlier suspicions it puts him in the lead.


Inzil clearly bears the brunt of her suspicion - and the vote in the end (even and maybe importantly notwithstanding that she says she was going to vote someone else!). She suspects Eönwë somewhat (only makes one point in one post though), seems to be engaged with Lottie and is pretty nasty with G55.

And then there is this odd thing about wabbits and coyotes & liking Greenie's vote on Boro - which whatever it means seems to suggest something about Boro.

So if someone felt Rikae was a threath enough to kill her it might have been Zil, Boro, or looking at how G55 reacts to things, then her (although she should have packmates to talk sense to her not to react like that). Or then someone just wished it to look that way.


EDIT: X'd with Pitch

[Nogrod]

first things first: that was one of the most useless D1 lynches ever.The owl of Minerva flies after dusk... It's always easy to be wise on hindsight.

On another issue, why is it that I suggested lynching Bom a find (Pom) or a good find (Pitch)? *Bom-Pom* :D

That's not exactly a secret. And I think I speculated on that possibility even earlier. And as Pom says correctly, I almost talked myself out of it, but then the voting kind of did the choice for me.

I was willing to discuss with the people around then (about 15 minutes before the DL or something) of the possibilities between Bom, Boro and G55 but had to take a phone-call from my colleague and when I came back people were already voting for Bom which kind of made it futile to vote differently as I had nothing against Lommy.

Just go and check.

Okay. Off now for a while.

[Pomegranate]

Oh, you’re right, Pitch. Though the vote is still in the line of the votes that ensured Bom’s lynch, not too far from the tie yet. But for further reference, Eonwe’s vote was fourth and Nogrod’s vote was fifth.

And then there’s Legate. Last night, I was convinced enough by Shasta’s notifications that I did start suspecting him more than anyone else. I’m not too convinced about Shasta either, but he did go through the messages pretty throughoutly, and especially since I had no previous opinion on Legate, I felt it was worth checking out. And Legate, unlike some others mentioned, did have a habit of sticking into his opinions. First this whole issue with Inzil, which to me seems more his making than Inzil’s. He keeps repeating the same point over and over, and over an issue after all as minor as one “This is not what we’re supposed to be doing, let’s do something else”. I can’t see that comment of Inzil's as too fishy. It feels like something all of us must've done at some point, giving a relatively useless message at the beginning of the first day.

After that he discovers Boro. After Greenie posted her vote and her suspicions, Legate gets to that as well. After I say that I agree, he’s surprised by my sharpness and says that he agrees with me, even though it was basically me agreeing with him in my post. It feels like he wants to keep the impression there’s more people noticing the same thing than there actually is. He keeps commenting on Boro until the end of the day, on this same niceness-reason. He says he would like to get him lynched. But then, when Nogrod mentions G55, he decides that she’s worth his attention as well, and keeps bringing her up as one of his major suspects. And then he follows Shasta on voting for Bom, even though he says he would like to vote for his suspects since for once he has such. He was the second person (not counting Bom himself) to go to the bandwagon, after Shasta. Boro was not far behind. Was it really so much easier to go with such an – as Pitch comments – invisible vote? Was it worth it? Or was it just that it didn’t matter which ordo you ended up killing?

That being said, I don’t say I’d trust Boro or G55 either. But Legate is way more suspicious, Boro seems just not like himself, and I haven't yet given much thought to G55 yet.

x/ed with Nog's second.

[Pomegranate]

Nog, it's not a secret, but somehow Shasta managed to get all the "glory" of the lynch even though you were the one who started more or less seriously thinking about the choice. So it was worth mentioning, when going through the people who were driving Bom's lynch. You planted the idea, then let someone else grab it and drive it forward while you were hiding more in the background.

[Pitchwife]

Now, Rikae.

An interesting detail is where she says
it may be more logical to leave Inzil alone for toDay precisely because he has made himself a target.
(underlining mine). Did someone read that as a hunter hint?

Her response to G55's tantrum actually sounds to me like she was satisfied with the response she got ("...I did").

Although she suggested leaving Zil be, she ended up voting him; he was clearly her #1 suspect and thus, I think, her most likely hunting pick - which makes me doubt that he had a hand in killing her, it would have been rather suicidal.

I'm confused by the whole wabbit/coyote thing. The coyote looks like a reference to Boro's avie, but what's a wabbit anyway? *googles*
A wabbit is a type of self-replicating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating) computer program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program). Unlike viruses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_virus), wabbits do not infect host programs or documents. Unlike worms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_worm), wabbits do not use network capabilities of computers to spread. Instead, a wabbit repeatedly replicates itself on a local computer. Wabbits can be programmed to have (malicious) side effects.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabbit#cite_note-0) An example of a wabbit is a fork bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_bomb). The name "wabbit" is probably derived from Elmer Fudd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Fudd)'s derhotic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotacism#Orthoepy) pronunciation of 'rabbit' in the Warner Brothers cartoons that featured him and Bugs Bunny. Like rabbits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbits), these programs have an ability to multiply quickly.
So, a sort of malware, apparently. Could be code for wolves? Or was she referring to the cartoons only (IIRC, Boro's coyote figures in those too, right?)? What the blazes is she trying to tell us here?

[Pitchwife]

The owl of Minerva flies after dusk... It's always easy to be wise on hindsight.
If I hadn't come online late and been busy writing my own voting post while the Bom-votes piled up, you can bet I'd have said as much yesterEve. But of course you have only my word for that, so yeah, well.

On another issue, why is it that I suggested lynching Bom a find (Pom) or a good find (Pitch)?

Because it does make a difference whether Shasta started the whole thing by himself or took the lead from you, doesn't it? Pom says it better than I can.

[Inziladun]

First off, I'm amused by people yesterDay commenting on me being "weird". For me, that's normal. ;)

So the alcolyte is some kind of werebear. *sigh* May the victims of the Night's terror rest in peace.

If so, that makes it a lot tougher. Bears are always harder to spot, since they have no loyalty to anyone, and have a vested interest in killing wolves. I don't see much we can do about it, at any rate.

And then there is this odd thing about wabbits and coyotes & liking Greenie's vote on Boro - which whatever it means seems to suggest something about Boro.

I'm confused by the whole wabbit/coyote thing. The coyote looks like a reference to Boro's avie, but what's a wabbit anyway? *googles*

So, a sort of malware, apparently. Could be code for wolves? Or was she referring to the cartoons only (IIRC, Boro's coyote figures in those too, right?)? What the blazes is she trying to tell us here?

Yes, Elmer Fudd hunts wabbits, but the Coyote hunts the Roadrunner. Was Rikae trying to bait the wolves into thinking she was the Seer, who had dreamed Boro? But that would have meant she would have hunted Boro, and obviously, he's still with us. I don't know.

And then there’s Legate. Last night, I was convinced enough by Shasta’s notifications that I did start suspecting him more than anyone else. I’m not too convinced about Shasta either, but he did go through the messages pretty throughoutly, and especially since I had no previous opinion on Legate, I felt it was worth checking out. And Legate, unlike some others mentioned, did have a habit of sticking into his opinions. First this whole issue with Inzil, which to me seems more his making than Inzil’s. He keeps repeating the same point over and over, and over an issue after all as minor as one “This is not what we’re supposed to be doing, let’s do something else”. I can’t see that comment of Inzil's as too fishy. It feels like something all of us must've done at some point, giving a relatively useless message at the beginning of the first day.

After all Legate's focus on me yesterDay. he went and voted for Bom. So did Eönwë, who had previously said I would be his likely vote, and offered no reason for voting Bom, other than he didn't want to vote Lommy. Why didn't either of them vote for me, instead of going after Bom? Yes, believe me, I know Bom's antics like that can be frustrating. It still looks like a very easy bandwagon, though.

That being said, I don’t say I’d trust Boro or G55 either. But Legate is way more suspicious, Boro seems just not like himself, and I haven't yet given much thought to G55 yet.


Boro is certainly not his usual aggressive wolf-hunting self. What that means, and whether there is an RL factor, I'm not sure.

Steve and Legate worry me as well.

[Boromir88]

For some unknown reason I was simply out of it all Day 1. Exhausted and wound up knocking out cold. I wasn't feeling ill, and nothing was the matter, just felt mentally not present, unable to comprehend/take in anything I was read, and why Pom and others likely noticed it wasn't my usual self. And all I could do was say "nope, you're right"...which seemed to just add on to the problem?

But good news I'm feeling refreshed and actually with-a-brain today. Not happy on what the heck is going on with the Eruhen/Acolyte stuff here, but refreshed and thus can promise to do better today.


So if someone felt Rikae was a threath enough to kill her it might have been Zil, Boro, or looking at how G55 reacts to things, then her (although she should have packmates to talk sense to her not to react like that). Or then someone just wished it to look that way.


It for certain wasn't a trailless kill. Rikae was in the thick of most of the action and pretty blunt with her opinions on people. Did the wolves think they were going after the seer then? Or perhaps a possible danger, simply because she was heavily involved and killing her to frame one of her suspects?

If they had the seer in mind when killing Rikae, I understand how it would point to Inzil, G55, and Eonwe...but no idea how Nog, you're lumping me in there? The wabbit/coyote stuff? In hindsight, it's an obvious clue, one that I noticed yesterday, but didn't say anything because I assumed Rikae would know I would pick up on it. Wile E. Coyote = my avvie, because I was a huge Looney Tunes fan as a kid and Wile E was my fav. Elmer Fudd, another Looney Tunes was always hunting Bugs Bunny, but pronounced his r's as w's, "wascally wabbit" being a famous Fudd saying. So, the coyote/wabbit was an obvious hint, one which Rikae would certainly know I would notice, "I'm leaving a Fudd clue = I'm the hunter."

If it was to set up a lynch today, that would suggest there was a wolf under some considerable pressure/threat yesterday and the wolves are hoping to redirect focus onto others. As far as the votes shook out, this would point to Lommy and possibly Eonwe...but there was such a bandwagon for Bom it's hard to make out anything about the others who've received votes. People dropping Day 1 suspicion is a fairly natural occurance because there is no evidence. So, I can't see why Eonwe or Lommy would feel like threatened wolves simply because of some votes.

Wolves still need to manufacture and manipulate the situation to create completely false suspicions. And the best way to do that is their kill. So, it certainly doesn't have to be an "either/or" here. Wolves saw Rikae as a threat/gifted and as a means to manipulate the suspicions/lynch today.

I quite like G55 so far today, a lot more than yesterday...Yesterday I thought her rant was mainly as a means to say "I'm angry! And since I'm angry/ranty I have to be an innocent." But today she's right into the action, and not playing the dramatic "I know 4 wolves who will want to use this to get me lynched" pity-me card. I'll look strongly at Nogrod today, because my notes from yesterday are quite scant on him. "Nog's all over the place and seems to not want to be a decision-maker."

Nog being scatter-brained, and piling on way too much work that he feels he has to do is quite normal, but he seemed yesterday far too willing to delegate responsibility/decisions to other people. Not that Nog doesn't consider a sort of community-input, when it come to voting at the DL, but he's usually more in-front/leading with his options, and then does the democratic approach.

Pitch's posting today is starting to make me wary of him (shall explain later) and from yesterday Lommy and Lottie (shall also explain once I'm back).

Edit: crossed with Inzil

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Now, as everyone kept saying yesterNight (can you put it like that?) Shasta was the one to start the actual bandwaggon against Bom, after suspecting around. However, it's worth noticing that he wasn't the first one to suggest it, even though he was the first to actually give his vote to Bom. First one was Nogrod.
(#113)

During his post he actually kind of talked himself out of it, but somehow it seemed more that he was giving the bait and hoping someone would go with it.

I wouldn't call it "baiting". That's rather normal - and I think it does not sound like "serious wish to lynch Bom", rather really just "anger ventilation", which is understandable.

Though some things about his willingness to flip etc. have merit, I would not lynch him purely based on this. This particular thing is rather understandable as normal reaction, I would say.

And then there’s Legate. (...) First this whole issue with Inzil, which to me seems more his making than Inzil’s. He keeps repeating the same point over and over, and over an issue after all as minor as one “This is not what we’re supposed to be doing, let’s do something else”. I can’t see that comment of Inzil's as too fishy. It feels like something all of us must've done at some point, giving a relatively useless message at the beginning of the first day.
Now wait a second, I never said "fishy". It was never a suspicion, mind you. I get the feeling the whole Legate-Zil debate is getting completely out of its original meaning in people's interpretation and reinterpretation of it. Zil says the same thing (see below) by talking about me "suspecting" him, but I never did! (okay, later during the day I did a bit, but only because of his reaction, certainly NOT because of the matter of the fact that Zil said "let's hunt wolves instead of talking about acolyte") So to put this back to its proper lines, what it was, in other words: yes, the Legate-Inzil issue took a lot of attention during the Day, but it did NOT have anything to do with suspicion. Also I think if other people hadn't started discussing it so vehemently themselves, it would have been just an episode concerning CLARIFICATION of one's actions (not suspicion!!). Also, note that my continuous questions to Inzil were only one issue, one remark at the fringe (in the matter of importance) of my posts, which otherwise were talking about something else.

So repeating this for the last time, the issue was (narrated as I saw it back then): Zil requested from others to start "hunting wolves" yet didn't act on it himself, so I questioned that behavior, he did not react, I asked him again, he replied with the same line as in start which did not explain anything (at least to me back then), and so on, back and forth something like four times. I kept asking him only because he had not answered my question. Now he has clarified it to me by the end of yesterDay, so we're somewhere else now. But as for the origin of the discussion, what I just said.

So as to this,

After all Legate's focus on me yesterDay. he went and voted for Bom.
There was maybe "focus", but never suspicion as strong to vote you. I had better suspects than Bom, but you were not among them. I could have voted Boro, for instance - later I basically decided that it's still fine to lynch Bom, especially on first Day, and Pitch, you have in fact summed it up:

Yes, I know, lynch a submarine on D1 if there's no better choice, and if it has to be done, better now than later,
That's basically it, I guess. This argument eventually prevailed in my mind as in the others', probably, over the anyway uncertain suspicions we might have had (and a large part of it was probably when it got rolling, which was probably mostly my doing, I humbly confess, the decisive moment - but really, I don't regret it, even in retrospect. Of course killing a Wolf would have been much better, but for Day 1, at that moment, it was a right choice, I would have probably done it again). The main basis of my vote was indeed this "if not toDay, then never" and "we can still lynch Boro tomorrow".

Which is, btw, what I shall be looking at toDay, along with Gal, as I promised.

Speaking of this all, it of course does not rule out the interior motives of some people who voted Bom, like Pitch said:
Or was there a wolf getting heat who had to be saved?

The question is who would that be - Lommy is the most logical option; the other one something like Boro or Gal or Lottie or whoknowswhat else was teoretically threatened...

But the thing is, it was basically really orchestrated by Shasta. At least from my POV, if he had not pointed it out so decisively, I wouldn't have considered voting Bom, most likely. And so basically the only logical explanation would be that Shastawolf would come up with this brilliant scheme to turn the whole village away from voting some fellow Wolf by proposing a completely new lynch. It would have been brilliant scheme, hats off to Roy Harper, but somehow I'd find it really really really bold and such things don't usually happen.

EDIT: x-ed with Boro... ugh, I've been writing this for an hour (okay, it was interrupted several times for minutes... but now I have to do also other stuff, so shall be back later)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

In hindsight, it's an obvious clue, one that I noticed yesterday, but didn't say anything because I assumed Rikae would know I would pick up on it. Wile E. Coyote = my avvie, because I was a huge Looney Tunes fan as a kid and Wile E was my fav. Elmer Fudd, another Looney Tunes was always hunting Bugs Bunny, but pronounced his r's as w's, "wascally wabbit" being a famous Fudd saying. So, the coyote/wabbit was an obvious hint, one which Rikae would certainly know I would notice, "I'm leaving a Fudd clue = I'm the hunter."
Ah, of course. That would make sense (they aired the Looney Tunes even here when I was small, so I know who the folks are). I also didn't get that remark at all first, though. The question is why would Rikae give the hint specifically like that because she would know Boro would likely know that (and why would she want to tell him of all people?). Unless she assumed everyone knows the show (but then again, the WWs would also know). I mean, after all, why would a Hunter give hints? Unless she had wanted to bait the WWs into targeting her while she targeted someone she thought was one of them. Then again, the Wolves would do that only under the circumstances they thought she is NOT targeting one of them, but then again, if they would know she knows they know she whatever... no, does not make any sense (try to think about it, it's messy and does not make any sense). Simply put: I don't understand why Hunter should give clues.

If it was to set up a lynch today, that would suggest there was a wolf under some considerable pressure/threat yesterday and the wolves are hoping to redirect focus onto others. As far as the votes shook out, this would point to Lommy and possibly Eonwe...but there was such a bandwagon for Bom it's hard to make out anything about the others who've received votes. People dropping Day 1 suspicion is a fairly natural occurance because there is no evidence. So, I can't see why Eonwe or Lommy would feel like threatened wolves simply because of some votes.

Okay, just (if you don't have anything better to do, it's not necessary, I might try to cope on my own): could you please somehow rephrase, say it again or explain it a bit more? I didn't quite get the meaning of this paraghraph. What do you mean: who would set up whom and how, most importantly?

Otherwise, Boro DOES indeed look more his usual self toDay, more thinking, more sharp, more "normal" - maybe he was really just "out of his mind" (or how should I call it :) ) yesterDay, I shall watch him further, though - I would like to see as much as I can.

[Pomegranate]

I wouldn't call it "baiting". That's rather normal - and I think it does not sound like "serious wish to lynch Bom", rather really just "anger ventilation", which is understandable.

Though Nogrod kept saying he's semi-serious, instead of just ranting around. And isn't that exactly what baiting is (at least that's how it would sound to me, unless you use it with slightly different definition) - not a serious wish to lynch someone (I wouldn't call Shasta's actions baiting) but some kind of reminder, "hey, you know, then there's this one... anyone? Feel like continuing this discussion?"


Now wait a second, I never said "fishy". It was never a suspicion, mind you.

a) I didn't say you suspected, I said I didn't see that comment as fishy and
b) #44
Somewhat fishy: - -
Inzil - This is not in fact suspicion (it's more like that what I've talked about in the beginning of this post), I simply don't understand

So you actually used exactly that term yourself.

And although you want to concentrate on the accusations about Legate-Inzil -issue, that is far from being the only thing I said about you. You went for anyone someone else suggested - except Lommy. Inzil was the one that you found yourself, correct, but then you picked up Boro from Greenie's idea and pursued that with some enthusiasm for a while, until you realised you couldn't get people to back it, and then went on with Nog about G55.

And Boro, nice to hear you sounding more like yourself already ;)

x/ed with Legate's second

[Pomegranate]

And how I understood Boro's paragraph was that "If the night-kill was such as it was in order to set up today's lynch". That is, if the wolves killed Rikae so that they could use that to move the discussion to someone else than the suspects yesterDay, with "Hey, this guy would've had a reason to kill Rikae!"

Okay, I don't know if that was any clearer... Anyways, I'm off for food and some dancing, will be back somewhat later. And I'm going to have to vote early toDay, I'll be travelling for the last four hours or so of the day (and preferably sleeping before that, but we'll see).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Though Nogrod kept saying he's semi-serious, instead of just ranting around. And isn't that exactly what baiting is (at least that's how it would sound to me, unless you use it with slightly different definition) - not a serious wish to lynch someone (I wouldn't call Shasta's actions baiting) but some kind of reminder, "hey, you know, then there's this one... anyone? Feel like continuing this discussion?"
Mhm - generally, baiting works more along the lines of "(insert several paraghraphs about various issues) --- Also, I think XY seems a bit strange with this and that. I am not sure if it is something, but it might be. Maybe we should look at it." This was a bit too outright (and said in the tone of sort of-exaggeration) in order for it to be baiting.

a) I didn't say you suspected, I said I didn't see that comment as fishy and
Well, "fishy" to me is used in the context of suspecting people. Okay, I see, I have used that in the post 44 as the general "headline" of the section of the weirdest people around, but that was generalizing; I said in the post itself, as you can read there, that I don't in fact suspect Inzil.

And although you want to concentrate on the accusations about Legate-Inzil -issue, that is far from being the only thing I said about you. You went for anyone someone else suggested - except Lommy. Inzil was the one that you found yourself, correct, but then you picked up Boro from Greenie's idea and pursued that with some enthusiasm for a while, until you realised you couldn't get people to back it, and then went on with Nog about G55.
Strong words once again, but I would also ask you to reconsider looking at it also from a different perspective. Also, I came up with Boro after seeing he was really acting non-innocentBoro-ishly, and later you followed on what I had said about him. I did not "realise I could not get people to back it", I continued having him as my top suspect, as you can read yourself (before I finally decided to vote Bom). I considered G55 after her vote, but I was saying from the beginning that I would not probably vote her on that day, but keep her for later. If I really wanted to e.g. save Lommy, I would not have split opinions (and votes!) in that way - stirring up suspicion of G55 and at the same time not wishing to vote her myself. Also, I had noted some (though just little) suspicious stuff about her already earlier.

[Nogrod]

Lommy and Greenie are at my place and we have two laptops - and we're also intent in doing some other stuff but werewolf tonight, so our activity will be somewhat reduced and scanty this evening (RL).

[A Little Green]

First off - Lommy confuses me a lot at the moment.
I can understand Lottie, who's been suspecting me quite consistently (although misguidedly), an even G55 follows a sort of line of thought but Eruhen? Where did that come from? That was pure bandwagoning, methinks.This looked fishy to me, the need to emphasize her own innocence in a context where it wasn't called for. Some players do that all the time, but I don't think Lommy is one of those so it struck me as odd. On the other hand, the following
This quote strikes me as terribly self-conscious. Why say "I've said very little about her" instead of "I have made very few suspicious observations of her on my own"? Innocents tend to keep track on what they have thought about others, wolves what they have said about others. I have to check the context of this because it basically rockets G55 towards the top of my suspicion list if the context doesn't clarify anything!looked quite okay to me, a sharp sort of point I'm not sure a wolf would come up with.

Did someone read that as a hunter hint?A Hunter hint? Why on earth would a Hunter leave hints?

But the thing is, it was basically really orchestrated by Shasta. At least from my POV, if he had not pointed it out so decisively, I wouldn't have considered voting Bom, most likely. And so basically the only logical explanation would be that Shastawolf would come up with this brilliant scheme to turn the whole village away from voting some fellow Wolf by proposing a completely new lynch. It would have been brilliant scheme, hats off to Roy Harper, but somehow I'd find it really really really bold and such things don't usually happen.Err- what? Not entirely sure I get this point, or rather, I get the point all right but didn't get the framework. Anyhow, yes, if someone started it, I'd say it was Shasta, regardless of that Nogrod suggested it first. I know Shasta is brilliant as a wolf and I wouldn't put something like this past him, but nothing really points that way in my opinion. Unless he and Lommy are in cahoots, but I've not seen anything that would really support that, either. I'm more curious about Eonwe.

[Nogrod]

Just a few thoughts for now.

Thinking about it again has led me to this kind of thoughts:
- Rikae was a logical hunter.
- As can be read from the tally, Eruhen was an ordo and thus not hunted down by Rikae.
- So no hunter-kill taking place means she was not hunting any of the four wolves.

So... if she hunted Inzil or Boro (two that would have seen most likely by what happened yesterDay), then she failed aka. the one she hunted is not a wolf.

Now it is also quite possible - and maybe even probable - that being the crafty player she was, she was not hunting any of those she suspected aloud.

Whatever the case in regards to the former, it looks fairly certain she tried to make herself look like a hunter (if she thought enough many would have gotten that Looney Tunes hint). So she was luring the wolves to try her (in case the wolves were not in her suspicions so that they dared to try it).

But that would then also mean she was comfortable with her hunting-pick, or just plain taking risks. And we'll probably never know whom she picked.

*AArrggh*

[Boromir88]

Okay, just (if you don't have anything better to do, it's not necessary, I might try to cope on my own): could you please somehow rephrase, say it again or explain it a bit more? I didn't quite get the meaning of this paraghraph. What do you mean: who would set up whom and how, most importantly?


I meant if Lommy (or Eonwe, and/or someone else acquiring significant suspicion yesterday) is a wolf, then the pack could use their night kills to divert suspicion away from one of them.

For first kills, the "little to no trail kill" seems to be more popular these days. However, Rikae isn't one. She was involved in majority of the days action, and had some fairly strongly stated opinions. So, as Pom correctly rephrased it could have been a "Hey look, this person would have a reason to kill Rikae!" and thus get suspicion dropped on a wolf who was getting votes/suspicions on Day 1.

I may have gotten too wordy and confusing, but essentially I wanted to say that it doesn't have to be an either/or..."They killed her because they thought she was seer/gifted/a threat" OR "They killed her to divert suspicions away from one of their own"...it could very well be both.

I think in combination with the Bom-voting yesterday, and with the Rikae-kill, there was at least one wolf under lynch threat yesterday. It's like a 2-step plan.

1) The immediate fix to save a packmate from being lynched Day 1, by opportunistically capitilizing on Bom's self-vote.

2) The long-term solution, kill Rikae, a person who left some strong suspicions to follow and make it look like someone else had a reason to kill her. And thus what I meant by using the night-kill to "redirect focus" today. With how slight/unsure we are about Day 1 suspicions, it's rather easy to get us to drop them when getting other evidence, such as who the wolves killed.

Ok, the basics of my Pitch-uneasiness is how he came out today to scold people about the Bom-voting. There's more which I'm going to explain but this:

I'll be getting to Rikae in a moment, but first things first: that was one of the most useless D1 lynches ever.

It's not like I can't empathize to some degree with being annoyed by Bom and wanting to set an example, but what exactly was that supposed to accomplish? I mean, you said it yourselves:

It's not that what he says is wrong/inaccurate. Afterall, what would Bom's lynch accomplish? But it comes off as trying to shame us...like "How could you do this" or "How dare you."

Not sure how to describe it other than Pitch is sounding over-the-top, trying to show disgust towards a meaningless lynch. It certainly was a strangely agreed upon to vote Bom, but the shaming outrage "how could you people do this!" is out of place, and rather uncalled for. I mean nothing against Bom, but it's not like we lynched the seer.

Ok, now I didn't vote, and for whatever it's worth I would have likely voted for G55 yesterday, but I would not at all stood opposed to the Bom-lynch. And that's where I'm scratching my head about Pitch's scolding about the lynch.

What did it accomplish? Well, maybe nothing on the surface, because Bom didn't really say anything. But what did it accomplish for the wolves? Not much other than insure one of their own wasn't lynched. I mean it sucks for Bom, and eventually we have to put real spies in the real noose. Maybe I'm strange, but I happen to think, if not a wolf, than any Day 1 that doesn't lynch a gifted to help us more than the wolves. The longer gifteds stay around, use their gifts, and gather info, the more of a chance they can flip the tide against the wolves.

And besides it may be useless to glean any substance from Bom's posts, but that doesn't make the lynch, itself useless. I mean if one of the wolves was under threat of lynching yesterday, than Bom made an easy alternative target, and that's certainly not useless. And excluding Bom's vote, there were 5 who voted Bom. It's certainly plausible at least one spy is in there...so again what did the lynch accomplish for the wolves other than getting a step closer to victory?

So, yeah that first post from Pitch today...it's not sitting well with me. It looks like he's trying to shame people for how they voted, by framing the lynch as the "most useless Day 1 lynch ever." Maybe not the most meaningful, but real scolding language, especially when I'd hardly call it a horrible/crippling lynch (like lynching the seer D1)

Edit: crossed with Legate, Greenie and Nog

[A Little Green]

Boro - As others (himself included) have pointed out, he has seemed more himself toDay so I'm, if not letting him completely off the hook, then at least not concentrating on him.

Sally - Truly no idea. She's securely under Rudolph, I hope she'll come out of there soon.

Gal - Hmm. Her jump on the Lommywagon was fishy. Contrary to most others, who see her (over)reaction on Rikae as either suspicious or innocentish, I don't really think it gives us anything about her role. Basically, wolf and innocent alike can and do react emotionally, and I just don't think we can analyze that. (Unless the emotion is faked, which I seriously doubt Gal's was.) Yes, you could claim a wolf might be more prone to overreact, but since feelings are really not something that operate by logic, I don't think we can apply logic to analyzing them.

Shasta - Has been really really sharp, which I like. Leaning innocent this far; the most prominent thing he's done is, to use Legate's word, orchestrating the Bomwagon, but since I can see an innocent Shasta doing that just as well as an evil one, I can't draw conclusions from that either way.

Steve - Not sure about his motives for jumping on the Bomwagon, it came kind of out of the blue. Other than that, a vague bad feeling is all I've got. Would love to reread him if I had the time, which I sadly don't.

Nate - Nice and sharp. Nothing alarming this far.

Pitchwife - At the same time under my radar and somehow - off focus? That's an odd word, but he seems kind of confused and sharp at the same time. Which, I'm sure, is a much clearer phrasing. :rolleyes:

Lottie - Strikes me as more innocent than not, kind of more gutsy and bold than as a wolf, I think.

Inziladun - Mr. Confusing. He was odd yesterDay (I think those points have been raised enough times already), but at the same time I think the whole "Zil-Legate-business" was blown quite out of proportion and might have affected the way he acted.

Lommy! - Like I said, she's confusing too. Innocent air, I'd say (though I always say that), but the part I quoted in my previous post, the one where she emphasizes her own innocence, seriously makes me raise my eyebrows.

Nogrod - Someone (was it Shasta?) had an interesting point about him defending Gal. Also and more importantly, I agree with Boro that he's been more reluctant to take the lead than usual - reminds me a bit of a certain RL game where he almost won as a wolf by basically letting us lynch each other while he smirked a bit and poked us to the direction he wished. At the same time, though, he's giving me good vibes (which in itself probably means he's evil since I always suspect him when he's not :rolleyes: ).

Legate - He's always wishy-washy, but he seems a bit more nervous this game than usually. Maybe it's the pressure? Another I'd love to reread.


EDIT: x-ed with Nog and Boro

[Nogrod]

A Hunter hint? Why on earth would a Hunter leave hints?One of the basic hunter-strategies I would think, two versions of it would be applicable here.

a) You think you know Rupert Murdoch is a wolf but you stay quiet about him. Instead you give hints you are a hunter and suspect Bill Gates a lot in the open. Now if Rupert is a wolf, he might think that is his chance to get rid of the hunter and *pow* he dies trying it in the Night.

b) You think you know Rupert Murdoch is a wolf and you want to keep him at bay during the Nights to be able to play more - so you make an open threat to him by hinting you're a hunter and suspecting him a lot. (The second one isn't probably the best tactics as it dangers the use of your gift, but people have used it as well)

[Eönwë]

Ok, finally caught up on toDay as well as the end of yesterDay, since I was very time-limited then. And now, looking back, I may have been more reluctant to vote Bom, but I'll get to that in a bit.

Firstly, Pom, your voting list has a few errors. I've fixed them here, and added in the roles of the dead:

Greenie -> Boro
Lottie -> Lommy
Bom -> Bom {ordo}
G55 -> Lommy (2)
Inzil -> Eonwe
Rikae {hunter} ->Inzil
Sally -> Eonwe (2)
Eru {ordo} -> Lommy (3)
Shasta -> Bom {ordo} (2)
Legate-> Bom {ordo} (3)
Nogrod-> Bom {ordo} (4)
Eonwe-> Bom {ordo} (5)
Lommy-> Bom {ordo} (6)
Pitch->Eonwe (3)
Pom->Legate


And I'm glad you also spotted Nog's sneaky post as the origin of the Bom bandwaggon, which is what I'm going to focus on now.

Here, we have two main parts to his 'half-serious' attack:
If anyone is willing to help Bom with his suicide I'd be happy to lend a hand there. :mad:

So, we ranted too little about these no-trace votes (or we should have made the rant wider). I mean a self vote is as bad as a declared random vote in that they result in the same: there's no way of saying whom the person really wished to vote for (or whom he didn't want to vote) - or whom he faked wishing to vote for or not to vote for. Declared intentions concerning one's votes + the votes themselves are the bread and butter of this game, voting randomly or self-voting is effectively denying others the info. And thus something the wolves would love to hide in if it was looked on as having no consequences. Therefore I'm actually half-serious in proposing we lynch Bom toDay.
Firstly, here he claims that there is merit in voting Bom because of his self-vote.


Then, not content with this, he adds this:
The other thing that makes me half-serious with it, is what Bom has actually posted.

There are four posts by him.

In first (#22) he agrees with G55 (and all others) about the Acolyte discussion.

In the second one (#56) he says Rikae and G55 look innocentish, with no explanation whatsoever (well, he adds as a kind of softening that he finds G55 always innocent and wonders why is that). Then he does what I'd describe as piling onto the Leg/Zil -controversy saying that's the thing he finds interesting, though he will not himself have time to look at it.

In his third post (#64) he dislikes Greenie's vote but backtracks immediately saying he will not vote for Greenie as she will not be around to explain anymore.

Then he votes himself (#94) because "I don't seem to be in danger of being lynched".
It's as if he decided that the first reason wasn't enough, and instead of taking the angered route of lynching the self-voters, he also feels compelled to find reasons for him being suspicious. Of course, either of these two parts would be fine separately, but what is the point in bringing them together? There is no connecting theme except for "Reasons to lynch Bom", which does not seem like the sort of thing an innocent would do at all.


There's also his ending part:
The only problem I have with all this (and why I'm only half-serious) is that I'm afraid an innocent Bom could play just like this as well. And there are some I think we have some reasons to believe are not having our best in mind anyway. Heh, and I'm not so sure anymorfe why I used such a long time into this rant which begins with let's lynch Bom and then ends up with, well, maybe let's not... :(

Here he tried to stick it all together, and fails miserably. The two points are not the same at all. In addition, it's only here that he goes for the "but maybe an innocent Bom could do this too" angle. Throughout the rest of the post, there's no indication of anything else, no doubt or deviation from his topic- it's just a list of reasons to kill Bom.

Not only this, but he tries to soften the attack by using the words "half-serious" three times in his post. Three times. Because he knows that it is just a relentless "lynch Bom" campaign. And he doesn't want to seem like he's just coming up with this out of nowhere. He's waiting for others to pick up on his campaign and vote Bom for him, so he can just turn up later looking blameless.


The more important question is why he would do it. And what seems most likely to me is that either one of his fellows was getting attacked, or those being suspected were playing suspiciously enough for him to want to 'save them for later' when it would be harder to get an easy lynch. So I'm not sure how suspicious this makes Lommy. Yesterday, I started off thinking her suspicious, then innocent, but now, with this, I'm leaning suspicious again.

edit: x-ed with the 'Helsinki update'. Going to eat, but I will be back soon.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

First off - Lommy confuses me a lot at the moment.
This looked fishy to me, the need to emphasize her own innocence in a context where it wasn't called for. Some players do that all the time, but I don't think Lommy is one of those so it struck me as odd.
Didn't that mean the interpretation was wrongful? But I'd like to hear about that from Lommy too...

Err- what? Not entirely sure I get this point, or rather, I get the point all right but didn't get the framework. Anyhow, yes, if someone started it, I'd say it was Shasta, regardless of that Nogrod suggested it first. I know Shasta is brilliant as a wolf and I wouldn't put something like this past him, but nothing really points that way in my opinion. Unless he and Lommy are in cahoots, but I've not seen anything that would really support that, either. I'm more curious about Eonwe.
The general line of thinking was along the lines of "if WWs used the option to lynch Bom to save somebody, as the person I was replying to suggested, they had not intended that originally, since they merely jumped on Shasta's proposal - before that, nobody of the people seemed wanting to lynch Bom, so it would be just Wolves jumping on innocent Shasta's proposal - unless he is one of them; if he is, now THAT was a bold move..."

Thinking about it again has led me to this kind of thoughts:
- Rikae was a logical hunter.
- As can be read from the tally, Eruhen was an ordo and thus not hunted down by Rikae.
- So no hunter-kill taking place means she was not hunting any of the four wolves.
Btw, good to say this aloud and clearly. I had the same in my mind, but somehow I think I didn't formulate it clearly enough: she was not hunting any of the four Wolves. I know it's trivial, but sometimes seeing it stated plainly like that helps a lot. This should also be remembered in future Days when chasing Wolves, we should compare the candidates for lynching with this in mind.

A Hunter hint? Why on earth would a Hunter leave hints?
Indeed. That's what I have said as well.

WARNING: In the end rather unsuccessful attempt to analyze the situation of Rikae's intention and death following.

So... if she hunted Inzil or Boro (two that would have seen most likely by what happened yesterDay), then she failed aka. the one she hunted is not a wolf.

Now it is also quite possible - and maybe even probable - that being the crafty player she was, she was not hunting any of those she suspected aloud.

Whatever the case in regards to the former, it looks fairly certain she tried to make herself look like a hunter (if she thought enough many would have gotten that Looney Tunes hint). So she was luring the wolves to try her (in case the wolves were not in her suspicions so that they dared to try it).

But that would then also mean she was comfortable with her hunting-pick, or just plain taking risks. And we'll probably never know whom she picked.

*AArrggh*
This is basically the same point as to which I have arrived above with this "if she knew they knew she knew they knew..." It is really messy. Okay, let's try to rephrase it - or "re-act" the scene once again. Since we know Rikae did not die, she must NOT have hunted a Wolf. Also, the Wolves obviously DID kill her. So what has happened here must have been one of the following. I will be using Boro as the example, although of course it is by no means the only option - the Wolves might not have gotten the hint, they might have interpreted it differently, they might have thought she was hunting Zil or whoever else was the possibility, but if I consider the hint, then at least I'd say Boro was what Rikae probably MEANT it to be; otherwise I have no idea):

A - Boro is not a Wolf
Rikae: Listen, people, I want you to think I am hunting Boro. (she indeed does so)
Wolves: Hahaha, stupid hunter, Boro is not one of us. *safely got rid of one Gifted*

B - Boro is a Wolf
Rikae: Listen, people, I want you to think I am hunting Boro. (she bluffs and actually hunts somebody else)
Wolves: We should not attack her. She is hunting one of us.
Clever Wolf: She is obviously bluffing. Let's kill her anyway.
OR
Stupid Wolf: Who cares. Let's gamble.

Now the more messy part would be analysing what Rikae actually had in mind when she did that. Because:

1. Rikae thinks Boro is a Wolf
Rikae: I am going to give Boro the hint that I am the hunter. He won't try to kill me and I will survive one more Night. (does not make any sense, in my opinion! Hunter is not here to survive, but to be killed!)
OR
Rikae: I am going to give Boro the hint that I am the hunter. He is a stupid Wolf, so he will say "yay, let's go kill Hunter!" and I will kill him. (makes even less sense, Boro would have to be completely crazy to do that)
OR
Rikae: I am going to... (you know the stuff)... He is a clever Wolf, so he will think I am bluffing and in fact not hunting him, he will try to kill me and I will kill him. (somewhat over-the-top, I'd say, though still better than the previous possibilities)

2. Rikae thinks Boro is not a Wolf
Rikae: I am going to give the hint... Wolves will see it and think I am hunting Boro. They will try to kill me in order to frame him and I hope I pick for my Night kill one of them. (would make a bit more sense than all the previous, but still it is rather mad)

So with all this, my conclusion would be that most likely it was something completely different, like Rikae pretending to be Seer or I have no idea what the Angband is that about.

Brain exercise. Thank you for your attention. If you did not make any sense of it, don't worry, not sure if it's very important in the end. I just tried to clarify the matter for myself, not very successfuly.

I meant if Lommy (or Eonwe, and/or someone else acquiring significant suspicion yesterday) is a wolf, then the pack could use their night kills to divert suspicion away from one of them.

For first kills, the "little to no trail kill" seems to be more popular these days. However, Rikae isn't one. She was involved in majority of the days action, and had some fairly strongly stated opinions. So, as Pom correctly rephrased it could have been a "Hey look, this person would have a reason to kill Rikae!" and thus get suspicion dropped on a wolf who was getting votes/suspicions on Day 1.

I may have gotten too wordy and confusing, but essentially I wanted to say that it doesn't have to be an either/or..."They killed her because they thought she was seer/gifted/a threat" OR "They killed her to divert suspicions away from one of their own"...it could very well be both.
Ok, yes, I think I got it, thanks...

What did it accomplish? Well, maybe nothing on the surface, because Bom didn't really say anything. But what did it accomplish for the wolves? Not much other than insure one of their own wasn't lynched. I mean it sucks for Bom, and eventually we have to put real spies in the real noose. Maybe I'm strange, but I happen to think, if not a wolf, than any Day 1 that doesn't lynch a gifted to help us more than the wolves. The longer gifteds stay around, use their gifts, and gather info, the more of a chance they can flip the tide against the wolves.
Note: this makes Boro sound better. It sounds genuine and does not sound like something a Wolf would say.

Ugh. I have been again writing this over a long and often interrupted period of time (and that includes this terrible and unfruitful brain exercise in the middle)... will take a break for a while and do something useful elsewhere...

EDIT: x-ed with Greenie, Nog, and Eönwë

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

One of the basic hunter-strategies I would think, two versions of it would be applicable here.

a) You think you know Rupert Murdoch is a wolf but you stay quiet about him. Instead you give hints you are a hunter and suspect Bill Gates a lot in the open. Now if Rupert is a wolf, he might think that is his chance to get rid of the hunter and *pow* he dies trying it in the Night.

b) You think you know Rupert Murdoch is a wolf and you want to keep him at bay during the Nights to be able to play more - so you make an open threat to him by hinting you're a hunter and suspecting him a lot. (The second one isn't probably the best tactics as it dangers the use of your gift, but people have used it as well)

Okay, Nogrod, all very nice thoughts, but I make it obligatory for *you* to read my unfruitful brain exercise (post above this one) in its fullest ;) and then you can tell me what you think about it... (Well, what. You often write long posts yourself. We can drink the bitter cup of reading confusing long stuff both :p )

[Inziladun]

So repeating this for the last time, the issue was (narrated as I saw it back then): Zil requested from others to start "hunting wolves" yet didn't act on it himself, so I questioned that behavior, he did not react, I asked him again, he replied with the same line as in start which did not explain anything (at least to me back then), and so on, back and forth something like four times. I kept asking him only because he had not answered my question. Now he has clarified it to me by the end of yesterDay, so we're somewhere else now.

Legate's defense has me feeling slightly better about him, though I still don't understand how I didn't make myself clear on the whole issue. Especially to someone as sharp as he.

That's basically it, I guess. This argument eventually prevailed in my mind as in the others', probably, over the anyway uncertain suspicions we might have had (and a large part of it was probably when it got rolling, which was probably mostly my doing, I humbly confess, the decisive moment - but really, I don't regret it, even in retrospect. Of course killing a Wolf would have been much better, but for Day 1, at that moment, it was a right choice, I would have probably done it again). The main basis of my vote was indeed this "if not toDay, then never" and "we can still lynch Boro tomorrow".

I realize I think quite differently than most, and, as I said, I know Bom has done some frustrating things, but is voting for one's self on Day 1 really something a wolf would be likely to do? I can see some legitimately feeling like there was no better option, and voting for him, but there's got to be baddies on that wagon.

But the thing is, it was basically really orchestrated by Shasta. At least from my POV, if he had not pointed it out so decisively, I wouldn't have considered voting Bom, most likely. And so basically the only logical explanation would be that Shastawolf would come up with this brilliant scheme to turn the whole village away from voting some fellow Wolf by proposing a completely new lynch. It would have been brilliant scheme, hats off to Roy Harper, but somehow I'd find it really really really bold and such things don't usually happen.

Wanting to lynch Bom under those circumstances doesn't really seem out of character for an innocent Shasta. I think it more likely if Spies were involved they'd be with the later votes.

A Hunter hint? Why on earth would a Hunter leave hints?

I can really only see a Hunter doing that if xe was very sure xe'd spotted a wolf. On Day 1, barring any kind of Seer drama, that just seems too unlikely. So I don't know what Rikae was up to.

I may have gotten too wordy and confusing, but essentially I wanted to say that it doesn't have to be an either/or..."They killed her because they thought she was seer/gifted/a threat" OR "They killed her to divert suspicions away from one of their own"...it could very well be both.

Sure, both could be possible. And if they merely took her Hunter-hints (if that's what they were) at face value, they might have gambled that it was too early in the game for her to have any concrete suspicions and decided to get her out of the way, especially of she hadn't been open about suspecting one of them.

I think in combination with the Bom-voting yesterday, and with the Rikae-kill, there was at least one wolf under lynch threat yesterday.

When Shasta started pushing Bom as a lynch, Lommy had three votes and Eönwë had two.

Not sure how to describe it other than Pitch is sounding over-the-top, trying to show disgust towards a meaningless lynch. It certainly was a strangely agreed upon to vote Bom, but the shaming outrage "how could you people do this!" is out of place, and rather uncalled for. I mean nothing against Bom, but it's not like we lynched the seer.

I see your point, but to me Pitch has been looking fairly clean otherwise.

x/d with all since # 187

[Eönwë]

Back, and now onto a few other things.

Firstly, I'm interested by Pitch's find (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667556&postcount=174):
it may be more logical to leave Inzil alone for toDay precisely because he has made himself a target.
It seems pretty likely that if the wolves were looking for hints and suspected she was a hunter, this (as well as the wabbit/coyote thing) would have stood out. And it does, as Pitch says, pretty much say that she's picking Inzil. Whether or not she actually did is irrelevant, since no-one died. But if the wolves did take this as a hint, then they would definitely assume that Inzil was chosen. In which case, this whole affair makes Inzil look very good. If they got the wabbit/coyote hint and not this one, then it still makes Inzil look good, since he was her vote, and so I doubt there'd be any way he'd risk it. Same goes for if they didn't even consider her as the hunter. She voted for Inzil, so the link would be way too strong.

So, basically, what this quote from Rikae does is point to Inzil's innocence, and I suppose I may have overreacted a bit to his attack of me yesterDay, since in reread, he doesn't look all that evil. And he's explained his weird actions already, so at the moment I'm fine with him.


Next, Pitch himself.
Considering that early yesterDay he seemed simply careful about not getting too deeply involved anywhere, and that he started seeming more and more evil as the Day progressed, I'm starting to suspect that the particular he made on Rikae's possible hint post is simply a summary of a discussion he may have had last Night.

I mean, he's started garnering suspicion, and what better way to clear his name than to give us some much sought-after information regarding Rikae's killing? So he can use his extra knowledge to gain favour with the village. And then maybe the whole wabbit/coyote thing is just to throw us off the feeling that he knows too much, since it's a very related topic, and him knowing both would suggest that he was particularly looking out for hints, which doesn't look good.


Also, I may just be being cynical, but since I suspect Nog of being a wolf, this seems like an attempt to allay our thoughts on Zil (or Boro, who has also been suggested as a possible pick for her) being innocent:
Now it is also quite possible - and maybe even probable - that being the crafty player she was, she was not hunting any of those she suspected aloud.

And then, there's the interplay between Nog and Pitch. I'm not going to go through it all now (still need catch up since Nog's 'Helsinki update'), but I remember noting Pitch trying to keep his distance from Nog by arguing against his points and making mild accusations but never going truly after him.



My other thought on people today is that Pom looks sharp and innocent.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Eönwë suddenly jumped to my suspicion list with his last post. If anything, *that* sounds like an attempt to frame up a person. I can fairly understand what Nog had said and what Eönwë criticises as innocent, but Eönwë seems to be overzealously painting it completely black. And it really seems to me like an attempt to cast suspicion on somebody.

Starting from the use of adjectives like "sneaky" in the very beginning (with a post that is perfectly normal, in my opinion)...

And I'm glad you also spotted Nog's sneaky post as the origin of the Bom bandwaggon, which is what I'm going to focus on now.

...using then those very decisive terms "not content with this, he adds..."
Then, not content with this, he adds this:

It's as if he decided that the first reason wasn't enough, and instead of taking the angered route of lynching the self-voters, he also feels compelled to find reasons for him being suspicious. Of course, either of these two parts would be fine separately, but what is the point in bringing them together? There is no connecting theme except for "Reasons to lynch Bom", which does not seem like the sort of thing an innocent would do at all.
...and making a camel out of a midget (Czech proverb - I think in English it's mountain out of a molehill) with this analysis and finishing with saying an innocent wouldn't do that at all.

And the final evaluation is what feels the worst:
Here he tried to stick it all together, and fails miserably.
(...)
Not only this, but he tries to soften the attack by using the words "half-serious" three times in his post. Three times. Because he knows that it is just a relentless "lynch Bom" campaign. And he doesn't want to seem like he's just coming up with this out of nowhere. He's waiting for others to pick up on his campaign and vote Bom for him, so he can just turn up later looking blameless.
Sort of a very, very, very, very determined and very, very, very violent attack, I would say. So I really don't like that.

Wanting to lynch Bom under those circumstances doesn't really seem out of character for an innocent Shasta. I think it more likely if Spies were involved they'd be with the later votes.
I'm not saying it's impossible, the question would be who. But I also think that, given the numbers, it is not very helpful to assume there would be some WWs among them, since we don't know which ones.

EDIT: x-ed with Eönwë

[A Little Green]

Legate more or less said what I meant to say. I'm really not comfortable with Eonwe's jump on Nog. I'm not sure about Nog myself, but the way Eonwe is painting him black without pausing to consider the alternative is alarming.

That said, I'm going to vote early again due to work tomorrow. "Early" as in "very soon", to be exact. :rolleyes:

[A Little Green]

Right -

++ Eonwe

He was one of the ones I was least comfortable with, and that jump on Nog settled it.

Good Night, I'm letting Lommy on now.

[Eönwë]

Since I've already started, I might as well post what I think of people.

Boromir88- Need to look at more closely, because I've realised I have no strong opinion on him.
Sally - Something worries me, but again, I'll need to look more closely.
Galadriel55 - Seems innocent to me.
Shasta - Looks like he has good intentions, even with the whole Bom-lynch. Looks honest and .
Pomegranate - Didn't post much yesterDay, but she looks very sharp and innocent toDay, as I've said.
A Little Green - She seems pretty good so far.
Pitchwife - I suspect there's something dark behind his previously spotless veneer.
Lottie - Ah, Lottie, I'm not sure about her. At first I thought her evil, but looking back on her posts she seems pretty standard Lottie.
Inziladun - I now think he's most likely innocent.
Lommy - While she speaks sense, there was something off about her early posts yesterDay, and she did have the most votes before the Bom-waggon.
Nogrod - I doubt I need to say what I think here
Legate of Amon Lanc - I've started getting the feeling that he's evil too. There's something about the way he posts... At first I thought he was a strong innocent, but now I suspect darker intentions.

edit:x-ed with Legate's complaint

[Thinlómien]

Who's this guy who's kidnapped Mr. Agreeable and started playing sharp and aggressive? Creepy.

Also, I don't understand why people are letting Boro off the hook toDay. I don't think he's any more his normal aggressive yet relaxed self than yesterDay, he just seems less tired and more focused. There's still something off in his manner if you ask me, his suspicions seem fabricated. (Okay, slight amendment, the novel of #186 from him looks pretty good.)

In any case, thanks for clarifying the Looney Tunes thing, Boro. Not that it makes us much wiser about Rikae's death, though.

First off - Lommy confuses me a lot at the moment. I can understand Lottie, who's been suspecting me quite consistently (although misguidedly), an even G55 follows a sort of line of thought but Eruhen? Where did that come from? That was pure bandwagoning, methinks.
This looked fishy to me, the need to emphasize her own innocence in a context where it wasn't called for. Some players do that all the time, but I don't think Lommy is one of those so it struck me as odd.
Didn't that mean the interpretation was wrongful? But I'd like to hear about that from Lommy too...For some reason, this asking for clarification rubs me the wrong way. But if you honestly want to know, well, I just happened to phrase it that way. A lot of Lottie's stuff was misunderstanding what I said, or interpreting it in a totally weird light. Like she totally misunderstood my Lottie-Pitch-Zil confusion, if I recall correctly.

Randomly back to Rikae - can we read her posts the way she tried to seer-hint she dreamt of Boro and the wolves took her hint? Haha, I just realized I mistook a coyote for a wabbit... that could be a dangerous mistake!If coyote = wolf and wabbit = Boro, then what? She mistook a wolf for Boro? Given that bunnies associate with innocence, this could mean she mistook a wolf for an innocent little bunny, and the choice of the word "wabbit" as opposed to "rabbit" or "bunny" or "coney" or whatever obviously points at Boro (like he kindly explained). So I'm thinking, maybe she was implying Boro was a coyote in a wabbit's clothing (aka a wolf in a sheep's clothing), the wolves caught it and killed her? And you all probably spotted the gaping hole in my logic the same time I did - if this was the case, why isn't Borowolf dead? The ranger or the mysterious acolyte intervened? Rikae double-bluffed or failed to send in her pick? Pretty far-fetched... anyone want to help me with this?

And Zil - are you 100% sure you aren't the cobbler?

Another question: why is everybody working based on the assumption that the wolves are thinking about the hunter 24/7? I thought it was the seer they were preoccupied with...

[Nogrod]

:confused::rolleyes:

Okay.

G55 starts the Day with a full-frontal attack on me, which attack I find manufactured to say it nicely.

Eönwë enters the scene later with a full-frontal attack on me, which attack I have hard times calling even manufactured.

Now a bit more impatient soul might think you guys have decided last Night to go after me toDay and get me lynched, maybe making a deal on the issues each one would write as their own "cases" during the Night.

But there are four wolves and I must say I'm totally confused if your mates wouldn't then have told you two to act a bit more wisely as that looks just terrible. So I'm tempted to look at these two as two separate bursts coming from their own motivations, even if I must say the temptation to look them as a wolf-duo trying their best (which isn't a lot, sorry) is compelling.

I can see G55 making the attack half as a self-defence, but it is still quite over the top (and could be either). Steve I have harder time of figuring out why, unless it was decided already earlier that should be done. I mean unless that was not pre-planned, then I must have hit a point somewhere and hit it too well.

I need to check that... and many other things.

[Inziladun]

I see Legate has come out against Eönwë now, and Greenie has responded by voting for him.

Eönwë's list seems rather vague and unsettling, especially in that he now considers Legate potentially "evil" after the latter began to suspect him.

Also, I don't understand why people are letting Boro off the hook toDay. I don't think he's any more his normal aggressive yet relaxed self than yesterDay, he just seems less tired and more focused. There's still something off in his manner if you ask me, his suspicions seem fabricated. (Okay, slight amendment, the novel of #186 from him looks pretty good.)

I need to go back and look at why you said you suspected Boro yesterDay.


Randomly back to Rikae - can we read her posts the way she tried to seer-hint she dreamt of Boro and the wolves took her hint? If coyote = wolf and wabbit = Boro, then what? She mistook a wolf for Boro? Given that bunnies associate with innocence, this could mean she mistook a wolf for an innocent little bunny, and the choice of the word "wabbit" as opposed to "rabbit" or "bunny" or "coney" or whatever obviously points at Boro (like he kindly explained). So I'm thinking, maybe she was implying Boro was a coyote in a wabbit's clothing (aka a wolf in a sheep's clothing), the wolves caught it and killed her? And you all probably spotted the gaping hole in my logic the same time I did - if this was the case, why isn't Borowolf dead? The ranger or the mysterious acolyte intervened? Rikae double-bluffed or failed to send in her pick? Pretty far-fetched... anyone want to help me with this?

I wonder if, instead of believing her the Hunter due to the "wabbit" hint, they might not have gambled on her as a Seer playing at one maybe, in order to keep them away from her. It's possible, I guess. And if she really was the Hunter, like I said earlier, the odds of her getting one of them were pretty small that early in the game.

And Zil - are you 100% sure you aren't the cobbler?

Care to elaborate?

x/d with Nog

[Nogrod]

And you all probably spotted the gaping hole in my logic the same time I did - if this was the case, why isn't Borowolf dead?
Well, that was what I was trying to say up there back - and I think a few others have stated it as well. The fact that no one died with Rikae that whatever she said or thought she suspected, and those who killed him weren't the same persons.

Now this might initially make both Zil and Boro look better as they were Rikae's stated suspicions, but unlike someone said just a moment ago, that isn't a big credit for either of them because Rikae would have been a bit foolish if she had said whom she is hunting as that is actually making her gift void and null. And I don't think anyone here will claim Rikae is a fool of a player. On the contrary. (It's possible she double-bluffed a round too much though).

Another question: why is everybody working based on the assumption that the wolves are thinking about the hunter 24/7? I thought it was the seer they were preoccupied with...The modus operandi of werewolves is, first the seer, secondly the seer, thirdly the seer etc. but it looks like Rikae made herself as hunter the talkingpoint toDay.

But as some have already speculated, it might be also possible the wolves thought her as the seer. Maybe they thought her parading as the hunter?

Okay, I'm not sure this line of inquiry leads very far as it seems we come back time and time again to the same issues: Boro or Zil, or someone willing to paint them as suspicious?

[Eönwë]

Now this might initially make both Zil and Boro look better as they were Rikae's stated suspicions, but unlike someone said just a moment ago, that isn't a big credit for either of them because Rikae would have been a bit foolish if she had said whom she is hunting as that is actually making her gift void and null.
It doesn't mean that it wouldn't be interpreted that way by wolves who just want to get the hunter out of the way early on, does it?

[Boromir88]

Eönwë suddenly jumped to my suspicion list with his last post. If anything, *that* sounds like an attempt to frame up a person. I can fairly understand what Nog had said and what Eönwë criticises as innocent, but Eönwë seems to be overzealously painting it completely black. And it really seems to me like an attempt to cast suspicion on somebody.


Legate more or less said what I meant to say. I'm really not comfortable with Eonwe's jump on Nog. I'm not sure about Nog myself, but the way Eonwe is painting him black without pausing to consider the alternative is alarming.


Wait a second, isn't making stronger suspicions/accusations a good thing? If nothing else it will hopefully get Nog to answer some things about his vote and late-posting yesterday. I've had the impression Nog's playing carefully so far (not sure if I'd call it sneaky, but sneaky/careful are virtually the same in meaning).

I'm not following Eonwe's point here:

Here he tried to stick it all together, and fails miserably. The two points are not the same at all. In addition, it's only here that he goes for the "but maybe an innocent Bom could do this too" angle. Throughout the rest of the post, there's no indication of anything else, no doubt or deviation from his topic- it's just a list of reasons to kill Bom.

"Fails miserably" is more strong language, and not sure what you're saying by Nog trying to "stick it all together,"...perhaps clarification?

Anyway, I have to wonder what a wolf-Eonwe would gain by this strong language in going after Nogrod? Also, I think there is a point to be made with Nog stressing "half-serious" continually. It makes sense with my feelings yesterday Nog is treading carefully. I'm sure an innocent Nog would have reservations about voting for Bom based solely on Bom's unconventional behavior.

But, the thing is, Nog's trying to make his Bom-suspicions look like there is some objective consideration,but at the same time his posts look like a pre-determined decision to vote Bom and tack on the reasons to justify the vote. Eh, that may be unclear...But this could get wordy...

Unsure innocents always has to go back through posts to either convince themselves about their suspicions being right, or to see they might have judged wrongly. But with Nog yesterday, it's almost like trying to convince us his vote was being thoughtfully considered, when really it was a "here's why Bom's suspicious" case with some "half-serious" and "it could just be innocent Bom being Bom" added in to make it look reasonably considered.

It was Bom's self-vote to motivate Nog to go back and re-consider voting Bom...right? But you hardly have to go back through Bom's posts to convince yourself. I mean, it's Bom. We are familar with his style. What were you expecting to get out of his posts? If your reasons for voting Bom are because Bom's playing unconventionally and there doesn't appear to be other options you're comfortable voting for, fine, just come out and say so. Saying Bom is being mysterious/not giving anything away/not providing helpful input is like saying the sky is blue. It's not like anyone needs to go back through Bom's posts to confirm/deny reasons for voting him. Bom's playing randomly and playing like Bom.

You can't on one hand lynch someone because you're not comfortable with the other possibilities and here is Bom playing like Bom. Yet on the other hand go through a post-by-post explanation and keep tacking on the suspicions to justify the vote. To do so is just overkill. Surprise, surprise, Bom said something controversial/suspicious/crazy/random.

Edit: crossed with everyone after Greenie's vote.

[Thinlómien]

Innocentish

Shasta - I think he seemed genuine and brazen in the innocent way yesterDay, also kind of too bold to be a wolf. No update toDay yet so I'm still keeping my eyes open.

Nate - her way of thinking seems more innocent than not, but I'm far from sure. I don't think I can read her yet, but she doesn't worry me right now.

Greenie - seems generally to be spotting and thinking things the way an innocent would. A bit like Pom - doesn't concern me now but might need reconsideration later. (Out of the two I'd bet more on Greenie's innocence though.)

Nogrod - ok I'm being honest here: I trust him. Don't ask me why, I was asking myself, and I don't really have any reasons for this other than gut-feeling and that we have agreed about many things. Maybe I should watch myself, but I simply can't see Nogrod as anyone I should be worried about right now.


In the middle

Sally - hasn't been around enough. I got vaguely bad vibes of her yesterDay, but toDay I've been forgetting she plays. I hope she posts a lot while I sleep (soon) so I can judge her better still toDay.

Pitch - honestly, I'm quite confused with his new, slightly aggressive style, and don't know what to make of it. Also, I find myself disagreeing with a lot of his points in this game, which is something that always makes me cautious.

Lottie - one of my top suspects from yesterDay, but now I have hard time remembering what was so bad about her except for the jump on Pitch's sarcasm, and if that's all, then... *shrugs* I'm looking forward to see more of her posting toDay!

Zil - if we had a cobbler, that's be him. I'm not going to repeat what I said yesterDay about his weird italics and use of opposites etc, but just when I started thinking he's maybe normal after all, he happily admits he's weird but calls it normal, or something of the like. Furthermore, he randomly continues the long-dead Legate-Zil thing for no reason I can perceive. It's just weird.

Legate - a little more wishy-washy than usual, and doesn't strike me as especially trustworthy in this game. Then again, there's not really anything against him either, and at times I can relate with him. A difficult case (although one I haven't been thinking too much about, to be honest).


Suspiciousish

Boro - when he speaks, a lot of it sounds like he's lying. That sounds pretty harsh, but I can't phrase it better. The whole Rikae-scheme related to him confuses me a lot, though. Also if you are looking for possible people to be saved by yesterDay's bandwagons, he's pretty high on that list.

Galadriel55 - my top suspect at the moment. It's not only her weird jump on me yesterDay or on Nog toDay, but mostly two details which scream wolf (which you all should know if you've read my posts but let me repeat). 1. When she looks back, she refers to whether she said she suspected someone, not whether she suspected them in her head. I can see no reason an innocent would play with this mindset. 2. She was confident enough that she'd be alive toDay that she spent a considerable amount of time last Night writing a post. A rhetorical question: who again are they who generally don't die during the Night?

Steve - yesterDay, I didn't see where all the suspicion against him s coming from. ToDay, I can quite see it. What the heck was that attack against Nogrod? Although it might still be too clumsy to be fabricated, but especially combined with his wishy-washy list, I'm not too impressed. Not my top suspect, but making himself look a lot worse lately.


edit: xed with everybody since my last

[Eönwë]

"Fails miserably" is more strong language, and not sure what you're saying by Nog trying to "stick it all together,"...perhaps clarification?
Ok, maybe "Fails miserably" is bit strong, and maybe I overreacted.

"Stick it all together" is referring to his post. I thought I'd explained quite clearly what I meant by that that ( :p), but basically I meant the fact that he tries to give two completely unrelated angles about why to lynch him. The self-vote and then suspicious behaviour too. Basically the rest of what I said (and what you're saying in the rest of your post).

[Thinlómien]

Care to elaborate?See my list (if you already didn't). :)

Public note to self (previously titled "not to self" due to a typo :D)
Nogrod looks slightly worse.
Boro looks slightly better.
Eönwë looks the same.

[Boromir88]

Ok, maybe "Fails miserably" is bit strong, and maybe I overreacted.

"Stick it all together" is referring to his post. I thought I'd explained quite clearly what I meant by that that ( :p), but basically I meant the fact that he tries to give two completely unrelated angles about why to lynch him. The self-vote and then suspicious behaviour too. Basically the rest of what I said (and what you're saying in the rest of your post).

Ok, gotcha now.

The "lynch Bom because there aren't other people I'm comfortable with voting for today" angle

And the...

"Lynch Bom because he's acting suspiciously/Bom-ish" angle.

[Eönwë]

Or rather, while the two are related, he argues them in an unrelated way, which just seems to turn the post into a list of reasons to kill Bom. It's like he set out to kill Bom and then just put down all the bad things he could think of, which is not the way an innocent does things, which is to find something suspicious, and then build on that.

edit: x-ed with Lommy.

[Eönwë]

Ok, gotcha now.

The "lynch Bom because there aren't other people I'm comfortable with voting for today" angle

And the...

"Lynch Bom because he's acting suspiciously/Bom-ish" angle.

I meant the "lynch Bom because he self-voted and we just spent ages ranting over self-votes and now he's done it" angle

and the suspicious angle.

[Thinlómien]

I'm going to sleep. I'll be back before the DL to read, post a little and vote. When you vote, please consider what I said about G55. She's made already two moves no innocent would make. Good night and see you!

[Pitchwife]

Boro - of course it's not remotely like a seer lynch, and the outcome of lynching Bom wasn't any worse than any D1 where we don't catch a wolf. But after Lommy, Legate and Nog had gone to some length exhorting us all to make meaningful and accountable votes, I find it, shall we say ironic or hypocritical?, that all three of them ended up making a vote of which Legate said himself that it wouldn't tell us anything. (I'm willing to excuse Lommy, as she was under threat of lynch herself and voting to save herself, but Legate and Nog not so much.)

Pitchwife - At the same time under my radar and somehow - off focus? That's an odd word, but he seems kind of confused and sharp at the same time.
Bingo. I'm being a bit distracted by RL affairs and having difficulty focussing on the game as I'd like to... but thanks for the "sharp".

Eönwë's analysis of evil!Nogrod as the orchestrator of the Bomwagon would be a lot more convincing if he hadn't voted Bom himself, dropping all his prior suspicions; pointing the finger at Nog now and saying "He made me do it!" is a bit rich, isn't it? I was rather suspicious of Nog myself early in the Day, but this actually makes me doubt it.
And what seems most likely to me is that either one of his fellows was getting attacked, or those being suspected were playing suspiciously enough for him to want to 'save them for later' when it would be harder to get an easy lynch. So I'm not sure how suspicious this makes Lommy.
You do realize that Lommy is not the only one who was getting votes at the time the Bomwagon took off, don't you?

Next, Pitch himself.
Considering that early yesterDay he seemed simply careful about not getting too deeply involved anywhere, and that he started seeming more and more evil as the Day progressed
You don't mean more and more evil as I suspected you more and more?

Now this might initially make both Zil and Boro look better as they were Rikae's stated suspicions, but unlike someone said just a moment ago, that isn't a big credit for either of them because Rikae would have been a bit foolish if she had said whom she is hunting as that is actually making her gift void and null.
I don't think so. The benefit of a logical hunter is not only that no innocents get killed if the hunter dies, but also that if the hunter dies alone and we can figure out who she hunted, we have a known innocent. That in mind, I'd actually expect a hunter of Rikae's format to leave a cleverly disguised hint about her target that we can figure out with hindsight.

[Nogrod]

Okay. I thought I had explained this already, but as it keeps popping up every once in a while in more and less fiery postings, I try to make it clear once more (we should rename this game into TIG XCIV "Where the Repetition is the Rule"), maybe with some added ideas based on Boro's few "new questions".

Yes, I was mad at Bom's self-vote, especially after all the rant there had been about the signifigance of making a reasoned vote.

Yes, I entertained the idea and was unsure about what to do; whether to stick with the principle (those who do not play should be lynched so that people would know it happens and thus would not do it, or stayed out of games they have no intention to play) or whether there was chances to hit a wolf.

Yes, I did more or less talk myself out of it even if I wasn't sure on how strong grounds the suspicions I had on some people were.

Yes, after Shasta started pressing with it - and it kind of opened out as a real possibility when some others also voiced their possible interest in doing it - I started rethinking it as a real option. I mean it's stupid to vote for a non-player if you're the only one to do that.

But then you forget what I aready told earlier - and you can check it if you wish.

I wished to have a discussion as to whom to vote, in the end there, like 15 minutes before the DL, got a phone-call from my colleague, and when it was done, like 10 minutes to the DL, people had already started voting for Bom and there was no reasonable scenario left but to join (no ties and thus double lynches). Picking up enough votes to lynch someone else at that moment was basically impossible.

So it was not that I especially wished to see Bom dead and somehow sneakily orchestrated it so that the others did the job for me (if I was that good, I'd win every WW-game singlehandedly whatever side I was on :rolleyes:), but well, it went that way this time.

But I'm not apologizing either. Like someone said, better an innocent than a gifted on D1, and I'd continue, better someone you can only do quesswork (throw a dice) than someone you can try to read and actually play with on D1.

Unsure innocents always has to go back through posts to either convince themselves about their suspicions being right, or to see they might have judged wrongly. But with Nog yesterday, it's almost like trying to convince us his vote was being thoughtfully considered, when really it was a "here's why Bom's suspicious" case with some "half-serious" and "it could just be innocent Bom being Bom" added in to make it look reasonably considered.

It was Bom's self-vote to motivate Nog to go back and re-consider voting Bom...right? But you hardly have to go back through Bom's posts to convince yourself. I mean, it's Bom. We are familar with his style. What were you expecting to get out of his posts? If your reasons for voting Bom are because Bom's playing unconventionally and there doesn't appear to be other options you're comfortable voting for, fine, just come out and say so. Saying Bom is being mysterious/not giving anything away/not providing helpful input is like saying the sky is blue. It's not like anyone needs to go back through Bom's posts to confirm/deny reasons for voting him. Bom's playing randomly and playing like Bom.

You can't on one hand lynch someone because you're not comfortable with the other possibilities and here is Bom playing like Bom. Yet on the other hand go through a post-by-post explanation and keep tacking on the suspicions to justify the vote. To do so is just overkill. Surprise, surprise, Bom said something controversial/suspicious/crazy/random.And they say I'm verbiose! :p

I'm not sure I followed every part of this, but I think I got the gist of it.

No. I was not proposing to lynch Bom because he is Bom. That would be stupid. I was suggesting it because of how he played, especially the self-vote. Especially because of the discussion on the very issue earlier that Day.

But then you Boro seem to fall into the fallacy of hindsight or that of wolvery (both meaning "knowing things"). You can choose which one...

Yes, I wished to go back through his posts, but unlike a wolf or a person with hidnsight on his innocence (as we have now), I didn't know if he was a wolf or innocent. So I tried to see if there was anything that would point to him being a wolf and using that self-vote tactics as a cover.

I mean you who complain about Bom's lynch seem to forget that he could have been a wolf. Or you knew already he wasn't and then as wolves rant on us others who didn't know from supposed "moral-highground". *coughPitchieCough*

So I see nothing wrong in both saying "I'm annoyed of the way he plays so much I could lynch him just for principle's sake" and trying to find out whether there is something lupine in his posts.

Blah.

X'd with a host of posts...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Based on the last posts and things, the Wolves are Zil, Steve, then possibly somebody else - either Boro (? there are times when he is still acting too "cool and composed") or then some hidden Wolves, like Nog or Pitch or... Also still thinking about G55 (she did not post much toDay, right? Would like to hear more).

Now a list.

Evil:

Steve - what I said earlier.

Zil - I concur with Lommy's "cobbler" note. That's basically the feeling I get from the very beginning. He does not behave logically. He's not the only one, Boro suffered from the same syndrome at least yesterDay very strongly. However, lately some of his posts...

THIS has really evil tone to it:

I see Legate has come out against Eönwë now, and Greenie has responded by voting for him.

If you open a post by such a sentence, I can't imagine more aggressive way of pointing somebody out and yelling at the village: "Lynch'em all!!!"

I don't believe in cobblers, and Zil might very well get my vote toDay.

G55 - Lommy sums her up nicely, though my suspicion against her is the other way around: the two "what innocent won't do" things don't seem that much of a issue to me, maybe the former a bit more, but her voting and some things noted earlier in her posting worry me more. I want to see more from her, though.

(slowly getting to orange-ish zone, I need to reevaluate G55 because maybe she belongs here too, but maybe not)

Lommy - still not 100% sure. Funny idea occured to me with this Boro thing, in case the two of them were Wolves, Lommy might be just bringing attention to him back when it has slightly dropped, when she feels safer to point that out. You know, sort of this thing like "my packmate is most likely not getting lynched today, I will accuse him a bit so that later, when one of us is lynched, people say 'hey but she was the only one who accused him on that Day when nobody else did, she wouldn't do that...'" But my suspicion against her is basically of this sort, I don't have any "hard" evidence.

Boro - likewise. There is still some of his "smoothness" in him, for example like this:
Wait a second, isn't making stronger suspicions/accusations a good thing? If nothing else it will hopefully get Nog to answer some things about his vote and late-posting yesterday. I've had the impression Nog's playing carefully so far (not sure if I'd call it sneaky, but sneaky/careful are virtually the same in meaning).
That sounds sort of, how to say it, well, still too "polished" for Boro. More in the "excuse me, gentlemen, my humblest opinion is that your coat might have a bit of stain on it" style instead of "you filthy brat of Morgoth, look how messy you are!"

And Lommy has a point that he shouldn't be left off the hook so easily, but he's better than yesterDay still, and some of his ideas and thoughts he says don't sound Wolvish! (mental note to self) Like this, in the very same post:
Saying Bom is being mysterious/not giving anything away/not providing helpful input is like saying the sky is blue. It's not like anyone needs to go back through Bom's posts to confirm/deny reasons for voting him. Bom's playing randomly and playing like Bom.

You can't on one hand lynch someone because you're not comfortable with the other possibilities and here is Bom playing like Bom. Yet on the other hand go through a post-by-post explanation and keep tacking on the suspicions to justify the vote. To do so is just overkill. Surprise, surprise, Bom said something controversial/suspicious/crazy/random.
Which is a good point and also a good point against Nog.

The orange zone switches gradually into grey...

Pitch - UNDER. THE. BLOODY. RADAR.

Nogrod - some points raised about him by other people (Steve and now Boro sort of in reevaluating Steve's points) make me wary, but then again, there's a lot in his behavior which seems okay. I'm not sure about his accusation of G55 and Steve, not saying that it's fabricated, but... yeah, in fact, maybe that's what I thought it might be. More like if even one of them might not be his friend and it'd be all orchestrated or somesuch.

Greenie - I have little clue about her, as often, she might be evil, but she does not give any especially evil vibes straightaway.

Lottie - where is she?

Almost-white-ish-zone:

Sally. Where is she?

Pomegranate - reasonable, sensible (mostly), no problem.

Shasta - where is he?

The zones are all very, very, very orientational. Many people are either-or-this-or-that, so it is no set order or anything. Very rough division.

EDIT: x-ed with Steve and Nog

[Pitchwife]

Or you knew already he wasn't and then as wolves rant on us others who didn't know from supposed "moral-highground". *coughPitchieCough*
Try to make up your mind whether I'm being "wise with hindsight", as you said earlier, or had wolvish knowledge in advance, will you? And if you think the latter, then say it instead of just throwing insinuating coughs my way.

[Eönwë]

Eönwë's analysis of evil!Nogrod as the orchestrator of the Bomwagon would be a lot more convincing if he hadn't voted Bom himself, dropping all his prior suspicions; pointing the finger at Nog now and saying "He made me do it!" is a bit rich, isn't it? I was rather suspicious of Nog myself early in the Day, but this actually makes me doubt it. If you remember, I was only one vote behind at the time, so I couldn't afford to choose anyone other than Lommy or Bom.

And I see, back to your usual suspecting then unsuspecting Nog ways...

You do realize that Lommy is not the only one who was getting votes at the time the Bomwagon took off, don't you? She was leading though.
You don't mean more and more evil as I suspected you more and more?
Nope. I'm going to go through your posts and see why I got that feeling.

eidt: x-ed with Pitch.

[Nogrod]

I don't think so. The benefit of a logical hunter is not only that no innocents get killed if the hunter dies, but also that if the hunter dies alone and we can figure out who she hunted, we have a known innocent. That in mind, I'd actually expect a hunter of Rikae's format to leave a cleverly disguised hint about her target that we can figure out with hindsight.If you really think that, can you then tell us our "known innocent"? :rolleyes:

I mean yes, I can say Boro could be innocent, or then Zil could be innocent, or maybe Steve because she said she will "keep an eye on him", or... Which one that ingenius hint gives us to figure out?

Really. A bold hunter might try to lure the wolves to her (and there's no question Rikae couldn't be that), but would she then tell them, or even hint at, whom she is really hunting?

Try to make up your mind whether I'm being "wise with hindsight", as you said earlier, or had wolvish knowledge in advance, will you?I'd tell everyone if I only knew... But I'm trying, trust me, I'm trying...

[satansaloser2005]

Sally. Where is she?

Shasta - where is he?

The DL is horrible for us, alas, or at least for me. It's the time I need to be leaving for work, and since I normally am just getting home around now (well, an hour before when I'm lucky, but there's housework to do when I get home, and today there are strange people in my kitchen looking at my appliances), attempting to do all my Werewolfing in two or three short hours isn't going to lead to successful Sallying. I'm sorry (no, really, I am) that my performance is disappointing.

(How is Sallying a verb but Werewolfing isn't?!)

Anyway, I'm here, and attempting to read through things, though I will admit that I'm having trouble keeping up. I'm hoping that, in a lovely twist, my delicious beverage will help with that rather than dulling my senses as one would expect.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

Well, Legate, what do you think?
That I can write posts in a blink?
And with these weird verbs
I may light some herbs
Or maybe I'll just have a drink


EDIT: x'd since the post I quoted

[Eönwë]

Well, Legate, what do you think?
That I can write posts in a blink?
And with this weird vocab
I may require rehab
Or maybe I'll just have a drink
But Sally, what are you doing?
Together some words in rhyme gluing
When argue in full
And your own weight pull
Discussing's what you should be doing.

Why waste your time writing rhymes
'Stead of punishing those for their crimes
That creep up at night
On the good place a blight
Like the creature gollum who climbs?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

If you remember, I was only one vote behind at the time, so I couldn't afford to choose anyone other than Lommy or Bom.
Really? There's always chance, and many other people to vote. Also, you might have waited. For that matter, I just recalled that there was this weird thing with you saying about hour and ten minutes (or something) before DL "I need to vote in half an hour" and then you voted in about 50 minutes from then when it seemed that the Bomwaggon was rolling. Yes, you wanted to save yourself, but this was rather calculated. Care to say something about that?


Well, Legate, what do you think?
That I can write posts in a blink?
And with these weird verbs
I may light some herbs
Or maybe I'll just have a drink
Well, at least you are here! (not going to rhyme at this hour...)

EDIT: x-ed with another nicely rhyming person, who however is not in my opinion in the position to say so either...

[Inziladun]

Based on the last posts and things, the Wolves are Zil, Steve, then possibly somebody else - either Boro (? there are times when he is still acting too "cool and composed") or then some hidden Wolves, like Nog or Pitch or... Also still thinking about G55 (she did not post much toDay, right? Would like to hear more).

Hmm, Legate. Having me, Steve, and Nog in the same pack would indicate some pretty daring wolf-on-wolf, wouldn't it?

Zil - I concur with Lommy's "cobbler" note. That's basically the feeling I get from the very beginning. He does not behave logically. He's not the only one, Boro suffered from the same syndrome at least yesterDay very strongly. However, lately some of his posts...

THIS has really evil tone to it:



If you open a post by such a sentence, I can't imagine more aggressive way of pointing somebody out and yelling at the village: "Lynch'em all!!!"

That's what you're using to justify suspecting me? That's a real reach, my friend, even if it is me saying so. I was beginning to relax about you, too.

Lommy - still not 100% sure. Funny idea occured to me with this Boro thing, in case the two of them were Wolves, Lommy might be just bringing attention to him back when it has slightly dropped, when she feels safer to point that out. You know, sort of this thing like "my packmate is most likely not getting lynched today, I will accuse him a bit so that later, when one of us is lynched, people say 'hey but she was the only one who accused him on that Day when nobody else did, she wouldn't do that...'" But my suspicion against her is basically of this sort, I don't have any "hard" evidence.

Yet you apparently trust Lommy enough to concur with her about me.

Unless something changes, I could well vote Legate toDay. I still am wary of Steve though. And now, to a lesser extent, Lommy.

x/d with Steve and Legate

[Eönwë]

Really? There's always chance, and many other people to vote. Also, you might have waited. For that matter, I just recalled that there was this weird thing with you saying about hour and ten minutes (or something) before DL "I need to vote in half an hour" and then you voted in about 50 minutes from then when it seemed that the Bomwaggon was rolling. Yes, you wanted to save yourself, but this was rather calculated. Care to say something about that?

Yeah, I misjudged. I thought my lesson was cancelled, but it turned out I had one, and then I just about managed to get in my vote in the gap between that and the next one.

[Eönwë]

Hmm, Legate. Having me, Steve, and Nog in the same pack would indicate some pretty daring wolf-on-wolf, wouldn't it?
That would actually be hilarious if it were the case. :D

[Galadriel55]

I'm back but I can only read in parts... so far I'm up to #180, and commenting as I go... I'll be ack with more...


Sure, but I sill don't like the fact you were so sure about your survival that you wrote that overNight.

I knew I wouldn't have time toDay - either take the risk or keep silent.

I think maybe we can leave this be for now and see what happens the next Night.

Good idea.

Is it a totally alien concept to you G55 that people can change their minds, especially if they are given reasons for it? (I know there are people who stick to their beliefs whatever the case, or even if reality proves them wrong time after time, but that is a discussion on politics and religion I'm not willing to engage here.)

No, Nog, but I think you would also jump on it if a person who repeatedly defended a point started attacking it after some support from others.

So if someone felt Rikae was a threath enough to kill her it might have been Zil, Boro, or looking at how G55 reacts to things, then her (although she should have packmates to talk sense to her not to react like that).

I'm shocked at how sure you sound with that "should". Don't be so confident, cause I don't.

Personally, I think Rikae was killed because she left a very confusing trace. And she wasn't likely to be lynched.

Now, Rikae.

An interesting detail is where she says

(underlining mine). Did someone read that as a hunter hint?

:eek: Now that's sharp!

[Pitchwife]

If you really think that, can you then tell us our "known innocent"? :rolleyes:

I mean yes, I can say Boro could be innocent, or then Zil could be innocent, or maybe Steve because she said she will "keep an eye on him", or... Which one that ingenius hint gives us to figure out?
My personal guess would be that the first of your Rupert Murdoch scenarios (love you for that btw) is true and it's Boro, or I don't see why she would have said that thing about wabbits and coyotes at all.

Really. A bold hunter might try to lure the wolves to her (and there's no question Rikae couldn't be that), but would she then tell them, or even hint at, whom she is really hunting?
Tell - of course not, hint - all I can say is there've been precedences (IIRC G55 did it just a few games ago). It's rare, and even rarer that the village picks up the hint, but not as unheard of as you paint it here.

Anyway, it's bedtime, but I should be back an hour or two before DL. See you.

[Nogrod]

The bedtime approaches.

I'll make a list of sorts before I go, but meanwhile I'd wish to hear from Eönwë and Boro to tell us which is their situation: the thoughtless overconfidence of a hindsight, or wolvery?

If you know someone is (or was) innocent, you can say someone who went through all possibilities with him was doing an "overkill" (someone used that term I think). But when you don't know the alignment beforehand, that's exactly what you have to do, check all the possibilities, unless you are a wolf when you of course have no need to do it.


Heh, I know I said this already, but as I have a feeling - well, I think I can say I know - many people skip long posts, I decided to make a short one stating one of my main points against that silly speculation. (read more from #212)


X'd with a few

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm, Legate. Having me, Steve, and Nog in the same pack would indicate some pretty daring wolf-on-wolf, wouldn't it?
That's of course theoretical. Although anything is possible, right.

That's what you're using to justify suspecting me? That's a real reach, my friend, even if it is me saying so. I was beginning to relax about you, too.
Among other, yes. I simply find your posting really fishy lately (this time, fishy = suspicious).

Yet you apparently trust Lommy enough to concur with her about me.
It isn't about trusting. She might even be a Wolf, or you can even be packmates for all I care, but the point is that the point makes sense. I mean, don't tell me you didn't ever see a Wolf saying something that actually was based on reality. I am sure you know better than to think that if somebody has different opinion than you, it does not mean he is a Wolf, and if somebody has the same opinion as you, it does not mean he is innocent.

Yeah, I misjudged. I thought my lesson was cancelled, but it turned out I had one, and then I just about managed to get in my vote in the gap between that and the next one.

Fair enough.

EDIT: also xed with a few

[Loslote]

And I'm glad you also spotted Nog's sneaky post as the origin of the Bom bandwaggon, which is what I'm going to focus on now.

First, eeeeeeeeeeeevil. :eek: Second, when I saw Legate comment on this just a couple posts afterwards, he jumped at least one category of 'suspicion' - meaning, from 'unsure', he breezed straight up to 'feeling fairly good about' in one post.

Sally - Something worries me, but again, I'll need to look more closely.

Pitchwife - I suspect there's something dark behind his previously spotless veneer.

Legate of Amon Lanc - I've started getting the feeling that he's evil too. There's something about the way he posts... At first I thought he was a strong innocent, but now I suspect darker intentions.

Vaguely indicating suspicion but not pursuing it at all? Lommy, you know how you were worried that I was trying to do that with my Pitch-poke joke post? Yeaaaaaaaah. Oh, and the flowery language he uses to express his suspicion of Pitch and Legate? Not happy with that at all.

Lottie - Ah, Lottie, I'm not sure about her. At first I thought her evil, but looking back on her posts she seems pretty standard Lottie.

Sooo, you tried an easy Day 1 lynch and jumped back when it became apparent that it wasn't working? Don't worry. Lots of wolves do it.

Lommy - While she speaks sense, there was something off about her early posts yesterDay, and she did have the most votes before the Bom-waggon.

This sounds excessively defensive to me - "and she did have the most votes..." especially.

I'm going to sleep. I'll be back before the DL to read, post a little and vote. When you vote, please consider what I said about G55. She's made already two moves no innocent would make. Good night and see you!

While I do agree about the points against her, I also think that a pack with both G55 and Steve would be highly unlikely, and since I suspect Steve a lot more...

Now. I've got to run to class, but I'll be back in two hours or so (hopefully).

[Nogrod]

No, Nog, but I think you would also jump on it if a person who repeatedly defended a point started attacking it after some support from others.If I were a wolf, I would be very much annoyed (you know this forum censures stronger expressions) if someone who backed me turned around to suspect me. Sure. As innocent I'd be annoyed as well, but that wouldn't make me concentrating my energy during the Night into a post trying to paint that person black just because he came to other thoughts... rather I'd ask her/him why that happened and tried to explain then the things the other person says made her/him suspect me.

And well, you only have my word for it, but I didn't change my mind on you because that idea got support. But think of this: if my modus operandi (my working rule) would have been trying to get you lynched in principle, or going with the flow and suspecting only those who others suspect, surely I wouldn't have defended you in the first place?

I did change my mind because of the way you suddenly jumped on Lommy (there was a train emerging there) - and especially the way you did it (you underlined it was the substance of her posts but never said anything about it yourself).
So if someone felt Rikae was a threath enough to kill her it might have been Zil, Boro, or looking at how G55 reacts to things, then her (although she should have packmates to talk sense to her not to react like that).
I'm shocked at how sure you sound with that "should". Don't be so confident, cause I don't.So you confess? :)

Okay. A bad joke, and it's probably a misunderstanding there. I tried to say that if you were a wolf, your packmates would have told you not to do something as over the board as your rant you posted early into the Day, because it would only make you look more suspicious. But as you did post it... well maybe you don't have packmates to guide you?

Jesus it's late again. I'm into a list of sorts... (darn vacations... :))

[Eönwë]

Ok, as for the others that I haven't talked much about.

Just been through Boro's posts. YesterDay he seemed a bit too quiet and sort of just floating around, but there's nothing evil there. Today he seems good. He hasn't said too much yet, but at least he's pushing a bit (everyone seems too agreeable in this game).

I'm thinking Lottie actually looks pretty good. The fact that she hasn't posted much probably helps, but what she has posted looks innocent so far.

I'm not sure about G55 any more. Some of her early posts don't look great, and I'm not sure I like the idea of her writing something at Night (i.e. assuming survival), but I suppose her attack on Nog is not something a wolf would do. Unless, of course, she was just hoping it would end up ignored because of its boldness, which might also be a good distancing tactic actually. Hm...

Pitch is harder. You know what? I think he might not be evil at all. I may have misjudged. He seems pretty observant and good-natured in most of his posts, but I do have a few issues with him. If we assume he's not feigning ignorance (which would be a pretty unsportsmanlike thing to do, and so I highly doubt that that is the case), then he seems pretty innocent.

Greenie I still can't read at all, but she's sharp.

Sally has just not posted enough for me to be able to tell anything about her. Most of it seems a mix of silly and serious, but where one ends the other starts it's hard to tell.

[Eönwë]

This sounds excessively defensive to me - "and she did have the most votes..." especially.
In what way? I'm linking her to the Bom-waggon.

[Pomegranate]

I'm back again, and will have to vote soon. Eonwe's jump on my suspicion of Nog definitely did raise eyebrows. I feel like there's too many people too much into lynching him, though - Greenie obviously, but Lottie, Legate, Pitch and somewhat Lommy as well. Lottie's last post feels very bad for me for some reason.

I think Nogrod and Legate answered to my suspicions fairly well.

I agree that G55's Nog-hate was a bit weird, but I have myself written posts during the night, if I have known that I don't have time during the day. Especially if I feel I haven't done anything too big to make the wolves interested in myself. And given - again - that it's G55 we're talking about, strong wordings don't alarm me that much.

I shall do a bit of reading on Lottie and Legate before I vote, most probably for either of them. I don't think there's quite enough reason to vote for Nog and I also think Eonwe, while being somewhat fishy, is fishy enough for two votes this early in the game. Broadening the view a bit.

And since I've almost gone through everyone, a bit more about the rest. Boro has a vague feeling of goodness in him today, I think it was there also yesterday, it was just not normal behaviour of his. Same goes with Inzil - people that I can't make myself to suspect without way too much time in my hands and energy to go through their posts over and over again. Greenie I just can't read at all, same goes with Shasta so far.

x/ed with Eonwe's both

[Pomegranate]

First of all, I could read my posts through more carefully before posting them.

I don't think there's quite enough reason to vote for Nog and I also think Eonwe, while being somewhat fishy, is fishy enough for two votes this early in the game.

is obviously missing a 'not' in the last clause.

But yeah. I think, to the extent that I have energy to investigate, Legate's still the most suspicious. For the reasons I mentioned earlier (though he did answer pretty well, you can never answer well enough in this game, right? Because there's no knowing for sure) and for jumping on Eonwe. Sure enough, Eonwe might be a wolf, but in case he's innocent, that's a horrible bandwaggon there. I really do hope you guys who are still around look into at least Legate, Eonwe and Lommy (who is suspicious but has posted so much I can't make myself go through her posts - good technique for a wolf, exhausting all the hunters), for I am in no ways sure that Legate would the bad one and Eonwe the good one. I have a strong vibe that one of them is worth lynching.

++Legate

Good night, everyone!

edit. an awesome but really confusing mis-spelling corrected

[Eönwë]

So, toDay, I realised that I had to options. Either to blend in, and accept what I knew was wrong in the hope that I would survive but running the risk of getting lynched (I will be around when I wake up for about half an hour after this toDay and that's it), or to fight against what I knew was wrong, leading me to get killed at Night.

I fear I made the wrong decision, but it is too late now. And now I know that I will get Night-killed if I don't ask the Ranger for help.

Sorry village, but I am your Seer.

I doubt that there was any way Nogrod was going to let me survive after that post- even if he gets taken down because of it, since it's clear that I lead to him. There's no way they can risk me getting another dream.

So yeah, here're the facts.

Nogrod is a wolf, a northern spy, a vile plotter, etc.

I also got an ordo, but I don't think it's good to name xem because then xe will just get killed.






So, obviously, toDay I've just been provoking people to see their reactions.


My opinion now:

Evil-
Nog
Legate

Maybe evil-
Lommy

Quite good-
Boro
G55
Lottie
Pom
Zil
Shasta




Kill Nogrod, investigate, don't trust anyone.

That is all village, goodnight for now, and I'll answer as much as I can when I get back.

[Nogrod]

13 people of which 4 are wolves, 1 seer, 1 ranger, 1 Acolyte (whatever it means, but seems to kill at Nights) and 6 ordinary innocents.

If we get it wrong toDay, and the wolves kill one innocent - and the Acolyte yet another one, the worst case scenario for toMorrow would be: 10 people, of which 4 wolves, 5 innocents and the Acolyte. So at best 6-4 to us, at worst 5-5.

So let's make it good toDay.


In the order of appearance in the Mod-list

Boromir88: I'm suspecting him still even if he has been acting more Boroesque toDay. All this Rikae-stuff makes me doubt though. My reason says Rikae did not hunt him (why would she, after that open hinting?), but did Borowolf count on it being bluff (or was he afraid she was the seer?) or was it some others who tried to capitalise on the interpretation that we would then suspect Boro on her death (quite schemy and daring wolves then)? The way he revealed his wolfPOV, or hindsight POV, with Eönwë's suspicions on me he was only too happy to continue makes me wonder as well. If innocent he should have realised there was no way of knowing whether Bom was a wolf or an innocent beforehand on D1.

Sally: A few limericks (thanks Sally, they make me leer) and obviously a lot of RL constraints. But still I'd like to hear more from her. Hard to say anything, and if this continues, I'm starting to get worried about her.

Galadriel55: I think I have talked enough of her. YesterDay's sudden Lommy-vote was bad and her start of the Day attack on me was at least as bad. I do suspect her.

Shasta: Where are you? I liked his contributions yesterDay and well, there has been nothing toDay thus far, so looking forwards to hear more from him.

Steve: I don't know what to say. He clearly had determination there (and yes, jumping on the points Pomegranate had already made). Unless he answers to my question to him (and Boro), I'll think him very much a suspect.

Pomegranate: I'm more or less agreeing with the majority that she looks both sharp and well, although I suspected her strong language in her first posts on my Bom-lynch -issue (or how she handled Legate: I think I've never seen Legate as explanational than there :)). Seeing that she voted Legate (whom I tend to trust somewhat) sure makes me wonder what did it mean when she said he answered her questions "fairly well" - and yet merited a vote. Also she talks of two votes for Eönwë which is either incorrect or then I have missed something; or that we should look at Legate, Eönwë (sic!) and Lommy while the person voting Eönwë is Greenie! (I'm really thinking I'm missing something here)

A Little Green: I'm somewhat astonished I'm not suspecting her yet, but she looks pretty reasonable - and I do agree with her on many points this time around. So no flags, as yet.

Pitchwife: I don't like a lot of the things he does and If I have time, I'm going to look at him more closely tomorrow after I wake up. There's an edge, and kind of vileness to his posting I do not recognize.

Lottie: Her absence has clearly washed away any thoughts I might have had of her off from my brain toDay. The last one looks decent though, but it might be because she suspects Steve heavily there and I do share the feeling. She's also someone I should take a closer look.

Inziladun: Well the enigma then. And here's why. There has been a lot of talk that he was weird yesterDay, and many explanations, and further questions, and the very same explanations going around and around with him. But they are beside the point. The point is, what Rikae asked from him when I was shy to do it that bluntly (even if I tried to ask him about it), namely: "Now Inzil, come out and claim what you're trying to claim so we can all see how implausible it really is!" A wolf backing into "I'm a bit cryptic, yeah, but things are going on now, don't ask me" (paraphrased, of course), or the Acolyte? If the Acolyte kills people I think we have the right to ask him about it... (that he kills people, we didn't know yesterDay, and that was one of the main reasons I didn't ask him straight - or bring that idea forth in the first place)

Lommy!: I think she acts like her normal self - which is to say quite little. She talks sense and I have nothing against her thus far - nor any reasons to trust her over the careful reasonableness -point.

Legate of Amon Lanc: We seem to agree on many things and that makes me feel good with him, but I'm also quite aware that a cunning wolf he could be would possibly try the same. But still, I have no reasons to suspect him and as long as we seem to be on the same side on certain issues, which are the only things I can rely at this point of the game, I'm actually pretty happy with it.


EDIT: X'd with Eönwë... WHAT? (and I thought I had earned some sleep...)

[Inziladun]

That's good enough for me, Eönwë. I don't see what you as a Spy would have to gain by deception, it's easy enough to tell if you're on the level. And, as I've been so politely reminded, we have no Cobbler this time around.

++Nogrod

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Now that brings something interesting.

I was just about to post how Eönwë's last long post just screams "I am making up stuff, echoing general opinions on people in the village and such". (I was just about to go to sleep after that, too. I think I might still do that, but I not sure if it will be such a calm sleep after all, anticipating mess in the morning.)

Now... what to make out of this revelation. I am not 100% convinced, because of above reasons, about Eönwë's genuineness (that's not a word, is it? What should it be? Genuinity? Sounds even worse). I can well imagine him being a hasty Wolf and in the view of being lynched soon, he wants to save his skin and/or drag the real Seer out.

That said!!! Just occured to me. Steve, if you ARE real Seer, you SHOULD tell us the name of your Ordo. Because either you get night-killed or the ordo does, but the Ranger can protect you first Night, and the Ordo after that. So you SHOULD tell us.

And that by the way further fortifies my belief in Eönwë's fakeness. Really.

I am not convinced in any way that Nogrod is innocent, but I am rather convinced, now thinking about it more and more, that Eönwë is just fake. A rather not very well done Wolfy Seer-revelation-attempt, since he does not know whom he should reveal as ordo, because he does not know whether to name a packmate or not...

Hmm. It is of course still possible he is not lying. But I really don't like it.

Also it is interesting for him to suddenly have me on top of his suspect list right after I got a vote, while I don't believe he had suspected me so much before.

EDIT: x-ed with Nog and Zil

[Inziladun]

That said!!! Just occured to me. Steve, if you ARE real Seer, you SHOULD tell us the name of your Ordo. Because either you get night-killed or the ordo does, but the Ranger can protect you first Night, and the Ordo after that. So you SHOULD tell us.

No, he ought to wait until toMorrow and leave the Spies guessing. And the fact that you are pushing otherwise makes me suspect you all the more.

[Galadriel55]

More thoughts about Rikae: although she might have given hints and hunted someone she suspected, it is also possible that she did not want anyone to know her true intentions. If the wolves killed her thinking more about the way discussion would be steered after her death than possible giftedness, this is a possibility. While a Hunter can pose as a Seer, s/he can also hide xyr true thoughts and make the hunt more of a surprise, which would baffle the wolves.


And now I've made it through 10 more posts... yes, my reading will be that broken... only snatches... (and if anyone replied to my previous post I have no idea, since I'm reading in order, so please be patient with me. I'll get to this before I go to bed.)

Pom at #180 - I like your line of reasoning. Solid. Backable.

A Hunter hint? Why on earth would a Hunter leave hints?

A logical Hunter could. That way, if no one is killed with them, we know an innocent.

[QUOTE=Nogrod;667571]Now it is also quite possible - and maybe even probable - that being the crafty player she was, she was not hunting any of those she suspected aloud.

I think it's quite possible - see above (and I wrote that before I read your post).

And we'll probably never know whom she picked.

*AArrggh*

Sadly, yes. There's too many possibilities.

[QUOTE=Boromir88;667572]For first kills, the "little to no trail kill" seems to be more popular these days. However, Rikae isn't one. She was involved in majority of the days action, and had some fairly strongly stated opinions.

She's not a no-trail kill, she's a too-many-to-follow-trail kill, in my opinion. It works just as well as the no-trace, maybe even better for the wolves because people argue about which trail should be followed.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So, obviously, toDay I've just been provoking people to see their reactions.
Provoking? Where and whom, please? I must have missed that. You did not seem very much trying to provoke reactions to me...

I mean, somebody (not me, I am now going to sleep! - but I suggest people in general could do that if we want to try to figure out if Steve is lying or not) should check his toDay's discussion with Nogrod, whether it makes sense... like, trying to look at it in the light of as if Steve was the Seer knowing from the beginning of this Day (or the previous one?) that Nog was a Wolf.

Eönwë, did you dream about Nog on first or second Night, huh?

Gaps and holes in the presentation...

That's good enough for me, Eönwë. I don't see what you as a Spy would have to gain by deception, it's easy enough to tell if you're on the level. And, as I've been so politely reminded, we have no Cobbler this time around.

++Nogrod
Add this to the list of things that makes me raise my eyebrows on Zil so high that I'm probably brushing the ceiling. Complete, unquestioned, immediate trust to such a *weird* person (sorry, Eönwë, meaning the style, of course)
with such a *weird* (= one which has some strange gap in it, the not naming the ordo thing???) revelation?

Once again: Why not to name the ordo??????????

EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Nogrod]

Eönwë: why didn't you vote for me if you claim you're the seer and "know" I'm a "northern spy"...

I know why.

You wish to reserve your vote into some later stage if your bluff is revealed and you need it for your self-preservation...

I thought it was odd G55 and you came after me with such fervour and determination (and Boro parrotting you). So I was right. You think you have that nice numbers that even if a ploy is revealed toDay there are enough confusion around that you win nicely even if this scheme of yours backfires.

Heh, I can see Boro's signature behind this... a bit distracted, not his sharp self... right.


EDIT: X'd with a lot - also Eönwë's vote I see... so you feel secure enough?
EDIT2: No it was not Eönwë, but Zil... the Acolyte is ready and willing, right?

[Inziladun]

Add this to the list of things that makes me raise my eyebrows on Zil so high that I'm probably brushing the ceiling. Complete, unquestioned, immediate trust to such a *weird* person (sorry, Eönwë, meaning the style, of course)
with such a *weird* (= one which has some strange gap in it, the not naming the ordo thing???) revelation?

If he's lying, we'll have a Spy toMorrow at the least. Why not try it? It's better than a stab in the proverbial dark.

Once again: Why not to name the ordo??????????

Because, if he does so toNight, the spies will just kill the ordo. If he waits, and gets a Ranger protect toNight, he can give us at the worst two innocents toMorrow, and a larger problem for the baddies.

[Inziladun]

Eönwë: why didn't you vote for me if you claim you're the seer and "know" I'm a "northern spy"...

I know why.

Well, he did say he was coming back before DL.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No, he ought to wait until toMorrow and leave the Spies guessing. And the fact that you are pushing otherwise makes me suspect you all the more.

Excuse me, but I've played in like twenty to forty or maybe even more WW games and as far as I recall, upon revealing, the Seer most often revealed ALL his dreams.

And really, your behavior is totally driving me mad. It's not even that I would not consider your opinions as possible - it's ok that somebody trusts Steve, that happens with both real and fake revelations, and it's not like I am 100% convinced he is lying either, it just seems more probable given all that's happened - but you seem to have just a set pattern of behavior which is always... completely against all logic. Come on, I know you are an experienced player, so what is this? Voting immediately as soon as you see it. Not even a moment of pause to think.

Bah. This is ridiculous. You are the Cobbler, whatever goes. Are you an Acolyte who could pick your role from the choice of Seer and Cobbler or whatever? It really seems that way, honestly.

Going to sleep... I'll be back to vote before DL. The question I put before myself is this - whether it is ok to lynch Steve (if it seems he really is faking this), or whether to keep him around for the Night and try to see if the WWs attack him - simply: whether to risk the possibility that he is the real Seer after all. But how are we going to know otherwise than lynching Nogrod? He might start listing "dreamt" ordos or whatnot, eventually he'd be exposed, but after how long? Also, the WWs might want to kill the real Seer during the Night, which is not such a good idea.

Too much now. Really going to sleep. Think, people, is all I can advise now...

EDIT: x-ed again since my last

[Nogrod]

Well, he did say he was coming back before DL.Exactly that. When he can see whether his bluff worked or if he needs to try to save himself.

Remember there are four wolves and they can use their numbers unlike we can... so even if this backfires they still have a chance if enough of us stray and they can blend in.

And if you lynch me, then I require you others find out if Zil (the happy first voter) is actually the Acolyte and what does he think killing us...

[Inziladun]

Have it your own way, Legate. Can you actually give a valid reason not to believe Eönwë, at least for now? Yes, it's possible he could be a bluffing Spy. Is it likely? No. He'd have no chance of surviving toMorrow. Why would the Spies make a sacrifice like that if they don't have to?
It makes sense that, having dreamt and then accused Nog, he might now be fearful of being lynched. People have talked about voting for him. Or, if he survives the Day, killed at Night (assuming Nog is indeed evil). So for me this has a ring of truth. If I'm being fooled, it's repworthy, and I'll take my hat off to Steve.

x/d with [B]Nog/B]

[Inziladun]

Exactly that. When he can see whether his bluff worked or if he needs to try to save himself.

Remember there are four wolves and they can use their numbers unlike we can... so even if this backfires they still have a chance if enough of us stray and they can blend in.

And if you lynch me, then I require you others find out if Zil (the happy first voter) is actually the Acolyte and what does he think killing us...

We don't even know the Acolyte is evil, do we? If you think I am he, why does that automatically make me worthy of lynching?

[Nogrod]

We don't even know the Acolyte is evil, do we? If you think I am he, why does that automatically make me worthy of lynching?You killed Eruhen. How about that for starters?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

When I say I am going to sleep...

...I instead go and check Steve's posts. Okay, reevaluating.

I went through Eönwë's posts of toDay plus his list from the Day before, and it is true he in fact does start speaking about Nog straightaway from the beginning of toDay (where he is merely uncertain the Day before). It would also make sense to dream of Nog if he was unsure of him, it's a good pick: a vocal player, with good record, etc etc, a good pick in general.

Eönwë was going after Nog toDay from the start and very strongly, and we've been all wondering (or at least I was, and some others too, I believe) about why he was using such a strong, confident language. As if he knew. Well, indeed - maybe he knew.

So in fact, after seeing all this, I am for giving Eönwë a shot. I mean, not a shot in the head, but not lynching him, at least. Even protecting him, I suggest to the Ranger.

We should not have that much to lose, after all. The only question is then whether to trust and try (i.e. lynch Nog) or do something else.

But I can sleep on that first.

(Where that case puts Zil is a different thing, but I am not going to rack my brain anymore. This time I am REALLY going to sleep.)

EDIT: x-ed since my last.

Good night.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

You killed Eruhen. How about that for starters?

Isn't that a bit strong words?

GOING. TO. SLEEP.

[Inziladun]

It's notable how strongly Nog and Legate are reacting due to one person (italics for Lommy :p) voting for Nog.