Taters to Taters

[Boromir88]

I am sure most are familiar with the game "Apples to Apples" and it's become a staple of Barrow-Downer moots. I've been trying to think of a way to bring a Tolkien themed version of Apples to Apples to this site, and I believe this can work.

Set up

1. Now in Apples to Apples there are red cards and green cards. The red cards are people, places, or things, and the green cards are adjectives. For "Taters to Taters" it's going to be the same, but the red cards will just be a character, place, or thing from any Tolkien book. For the adjectives, I'm going to be using the green cards from A2A, and for each round just draw a random green card.

2. I will PM the players 7 "red cards" from the books. These could be characters, locations, or objects. I will be keeping track of who has what, but it would also be a lot easier if no one forgot/lost what their red cards were.

3. In this thread I will post a "green card," which would be the adjective for that round. And then each player, amongst their 7 red cards chooses which one they feel best fits the word. You will then PM your choice to me.

For example/
"Round 1
Green card: Cheerful"

And the red cards I've PMed wilwa are: "Sauron, Mindolluin, Gelion, Durin, Arkenstone, Ancalagon, Saeros"

-Wilwa will then pick which one she thinks fits best with "cheerful" and PM me her choice.

4. After I have all the players choices, I will post them in this thread, anonymously. (This part is important)

5. The Judge is selected, by me amongst the players each round. In A-2-A, it just passes around clockwise. For this, I'm simply going down the player list. Thus, Round 1, sally will be the Judge, Round 2 Nogrod...etc.
-The Judge does not play a red card in the round that they are judging (ie. I should not be getting any PMs from you if you are the judge of the round).
-After I've posted all the choices in this thread, it is the Judge's job to determine the choice the best fits the adjective (according to his/her own mind).
-If you are the judge, your decision is entirely up to you. There are no rules or restrictions on the judge, in his/her judgements. The only important thing to maintain is the judge does not know what players have played which "red card." It has to be completely anonymous (and which is why, everyond PMs their red card to me).

The judge, does not have to post their whole reasoning, why they eliminated some cards...etc. However, the judge must provide his/her reason for choosing the red card that won. So, when the judge determines the winner, post your decision in this thread. You must state your reasoning for the card that won the round. If you'd like to post more details of why you chose one card over another, or why you eliminated others, feel free. All that is required is to post your reasons in picking the winner.

6. After the judge posts the winner, I will know who played that card (and also the person who played it will know too :p) and the player will receive 1 point.

7. We go to the next round, the next member on the list is the judge for the round, and we repeat this process.

Additional Housekeeping

-The first member to 4 points wins the game.

2 phases. 24-hours each. First phase is, in this thread, I will post the green card word, and the judge for the round. Players have 24 hours to PM me back one of their red cards they will play.
-2nd phase. The Judge phase, at the beginning of the DL, I will post the anonymous list of all the choices sent to me. The judge will have 24 hours to pick the winner, and post his/her reasoning. During this phase, players may also freely comment on all the choices. There is no posting requirement, this is just for fun and relaxed like the live A2A games. Before the judge has made his/her decision, players are not allowed to reveal which "card" was theirs. To do so, will result in your card being automatically disqualified for that round. After the judge has posted the winner, however, the winning player will be revealed (and given 1 point). Other players may then reveal what their "card" was, if they so wish, but players may also keep this information secret if they also wish. (Therefore, I will only reveal the person the judge picked as the winner. And if anyone else wants to reveal what they sent me at this time, they may, but it is not required).

-This can move fairly quickly depending on how fast we keep the PMs rolling. However, there will be a maximum of 24 hours allowed for each "phase." When I post the green card, players will have 24 hours from that post to PM their red card. (If I have ALL of them, before the 24 hours, I will post them all in this thread). The judge will then have 24 hours to post his/her decision from that moment.

-And before I forget. I've put the "red cards" in a word document, and just have a completely randomized list. Once a player PMs me their red card choice for the round, I PM back the next red card on my list. So, everyone should always have 7 options in their hand to begin each round. And my list, again, has been randomized.

*Any other questions? Essentially, this is going to run the same as Apples to Apples, but I'm serving as the "Mod" to disperse all the cards and keep everything anonymous.

----

Unfortunately, for this time, I'm going to have to set a cap, unless we can figure out a more econimical way of running it, because too many PMs would become quite unmanageable. So, for now, the cap is 16, and it's going to be first come first serve type deal.

3 though have been reserved for their assistance in the idea. And wilwa for coming up with the creative Tolkien-theme name. Originally, I was going with "Apples to Apples (Tolkien edition), but "Taters to Taters" is kind of perfect. :D

Players

sally
Nogrod
wilwa
Galadriel55
MCRmyGirl4eva
the phantom
Lottie
Menel
Kitanna
Gwath
Kath
Lhuna

[Galadriel55]

I'd be glad to join. My days are kind of crazy and unpredictable now, but I think that if I can manage WW DLs I can manage this one.

[Boromir88]

Awesome. This will also have much less commitment from the players.

And after additional thought, I think it would be better, and more fair for all, just to have one set deadline time. So we can discuss good DL times, although, this isn't a game where there is any given advantage in getting your choice in at the very end, or not.

[Nogrod]

As I discussed with Boro on the FB, I think the chatting over the different choices people send in is kind of the funniest part of the game, so I think people should feel free to comment on the different choices the "judge" has - or to rant after the decisions are made.

The one thing that is important though is that no one should in any way reveal which was the "card" they sent in themselves.

In the number of games I have played Apples to Apples people have at times commented also on their own cards on the table but have not given any indication it is their own card they are discussing...


Timetables should not be a problem as anyone can just react as soon as they come online. Unlike in Werewolf or Arda Cup you don't need to read a lot, deduct, specualte, plot... anything like that. Like in the original card game you have a set of chances and you pick one - in the live game that is like five to twenty seconds...

The fun thing with the online Tolkien version though is that if you get a name of a place or person you don't know already you have to do some researching - and that will help you learn more of the Tolkien universe!

[Nogrod]

The fun thing with the online Tolkien version though is that if you get a name of a place or person you don't know already you have to do some researching - and that will help you learn more of the Tolkien universe!Am I already contradicting myself while saying on the other hand you can make snap-decisions and then on the other say you need to do some research?

Partly yes, I'm afraid. :D

But if we have 24-hour turns there should be ample time for everyone to either just make reaction-based decisions like in the live-game, check out any facts they need, add banter or comment on others etc. as much as they wish.

I myself at least hope this would be as a relaxed game there is - as Apples to Apples is...

[Galadriel55]

I myself at least hope this would be as a relaxed game there is - as Apples to Apples is...

I hope Boro will not be overworking though... so many PMs at once!

[Boromir88]

I myself at least hope this would be as a relaxed game there is - as Apples to Apples is...

Same here. :)

And as Nog said, in the live Apples to Apples, the commenting while the judge is going through the choices is part of the fun.

So, to start the Judge's phase, I will post the anonymous list of the choices at the DL. The judge will have 24-hours to pick the winner and give his/her reasoning. But also during this time, the players can comment on the choices the judge has. It is by no means required, but feel free to do so, the only addendum being you can never reveal what your card is. To do so would result in your card being disqualified from judging in that round.

Edit: D'aww thanks G55, I've got the major work done, by setting up the list of red cards already. And so I can do and move all the PMings relatively quickly. You send me your choice for the round and I reply back with your replacement "card." It will just be, making sure my PM box stays not full.

[Galadriel55]

But after the Judge made his/her pick can the cards be revealed? At least the winner?

And we'll know how many points each one has, right? So that means that at least the winner is revealed.

[Boromir88]

But after the Judge made his/her pick can the cards be revealed? At least the winner?

And we'll know how many points each one has, right? So that means that at least the winner is revealed.

Yes. After judge makes decision no more anonymity required. Everything will be revealed.

[Nogrod]

Everything will be revealed.That is indeed a decision that has to be done. Will you reveal all the "cards" aka. "this round Wilwa played Melkor, Galadriel played Lotho Sackvile-Baggins..." or should they be up to whether people ask / are willing to provide the info?

In the live game the judge - or even some other people - oftentimes ask "who put Faramir in here?" (when the adjective was fex. "a nerd" :rolleyes:) - and some people even like to tell others it was they who indeed put Denethor in there (for nerd - hmm... because he went crazy sitting in a dark room watching for a ball that sucked him inside that world and thus made him disregarded the reality).

But all card vs. player relationships are, I think, seldom revealed (even I think there are also that kind of rounds).

I mean I have nothing against the mod revealing the full round after the judge has made the decision. It's quite fine with me. But if someone sees that as a problem we should think about it.

[Boromir88]

That is indeed a decision that has to be done. Will you reveal all the "cards" aka. "this round Wilwa played Melkor, Galadriel played Lotho Sackvile-Baggins..." or should they be up to whether people ask / are willing to provide the info?


Answered this as I was making the change to having a one set dead line. Essentially, I will only reveal who won and thus who gets 1 point for the round. After the judge has made the decision, players can reveal what their "card" was if they want, but they can also keep it secret as well. So, yeah, this will be left up to the individual player.

[MCRmyGirl4eva]

Is it too late for me to join?

[Nogrod]

Not even near MCRmyGirl4eva!

I think you're the fifth player (from 16, the most). :)


It should be fun.

[Boromir88]

Is it too late for me to join?

Added. :D

My guess is probably about another week before starting. Many of the others who know, and I imagine would enjoy playing are attending Britmoot.

[the phantom]

Well, well- this is going to be a bit different. When playing in real life I tend to choose whatever card makes me giggle uncontrollably- e.g. one time the word was "Legendary" and someone played "baked beans" and it just struck me as gold at the moment, so it won.

With this format and time to reflect... I'm thinking there might be a different strategy.

[Loslote]

I love the idea for this game - it sounds like a ton of fun, and I can't wait to see how it turns out. :D

If we're starting in about a week...I think that'll work. I won't be settled into my dorm until three days after that, BUT I should be able to get online at least once a day even then, and after that's over with I'll be as free as I'll ever be. Sign me up! :D

[Meneltarmacil]

I love Apples to Apples.

Sign me up, please.

[Kitanna]

Goodness me! Is it too late to join up?

[Boromir88]

Goodness me! Is it too late to join up?

Nope. Probably be starting next weekend. :D

[Gwathagor]

I can totally make time for this.

[Lhunardawen]

Making this official: Sign me up, please!

[MCRmyGirl4eva]

Yay! I'm in! TACO... don't ask about the tacos... or fight club...

[Boromir88]

At this point we'll begin on Saturday, but anyone else who wants to join can do so until then. (A max of 4 more that is) I'll send out the PMs with your 7 red cards Saturday morning, or afternoon.

Then I'll post the Round 1 information in this thread at Noon EST. So, the DL every day will be Noon EST.

It's not that big of an issue, as the DL can be in WW, because there's no advantage for when you reply back to me with your choice. The DL is just to give one, set and consistent time for when we move from the 1st phase to the judging phase in each round.

So, Saturday Noon, you'll have 24-hours to PM me your choice for the round. When I receive it, I will reply back with your replacement. (Everyone should have 7 options at the beginning of each round).

And Sunday Noon, the judging phase will begin. I will post all the choices for the judge in that round. The judge has 24-hours to pick the winner. During this time, it's not required, but anyone may discuss the choices (but no revealing what you sent in before the judge's decision). After the judge picks the winner, the winner will be revealed and get 1 point. Anyone else may feel free, at that time, to reveal which word they sent in. I will only reveal the winner though, and so this will be completely up to the rest of you. :D

All makes sense? Any other questions?

[Boromir88]

ROUND 1

Green card: Honest (trustworthy, truthful)
Judge: sally

*Deadline Noon tomorrow.

[satansaloser2005]

ROUND 1

Green card: Honest (trustworthy, truthful)
Judge: sally

*Deadline Noon tomorrow.

Given the last WW game, especially this post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=673235&postcount=74), I find this rather appropriate. :p


Also, yay!

[Nogrod]

*Deadline Noon tomorrow.Boro: regarding the time-stamp on your post, is the noon EST half an hour earlier or later, or more, to either direction? I mean yes the EST is -5 from the UTC/GMT and that's a nice guideline to Lhûna and us Europeans, but the Daylight Savings kind of make it messy as some areas have the and some do not.

Haha, looking forwards to this!

*and PMing my choice in a minute...*

[Boromir88]

Boro: regarding the time-stamp on your post, is the noon EST half an hour earlier or later, or more, to either direction? I mean yes the EST is -5 from the UTC/GMT and that's a nice guideline to Lhûna and us Europeans, but the Daylight Savings kind of make it messy as some areas have the and some do not.

Haha, looking forwards to this!

*and PMing my choice in a minute...*

Ran a bit late watching the start of the Premier League. 30 minutes before the time stamp on my Round 1 post. :)

[Nogrod]

Just a question: are we going in the order of the names in your first post as who is the judge at any given round?

I mean Sally begins, then it would be me, wilwa next, then Galadriel...

I mean in the live game you know the order of the judges, and this looks like it, but just to be sure of it...

[Lhunardawen]

Boro: regarding the time-stamp on your post, is the noon EST half an hour earlier or later, or more, to either direction? I mean yes the EST is -5 from the UTC/GMT and that's a nice guideline to Lhûna and us Europeans, but the Daylight Savings kind of make it messy as some areas have the and some do not.
Thanks, Noggie. No more counting for me! Glorious, glorious 12-hour difference.

[Boromir88]

Last I was able to see, Kath was having laptop/internet issues. But the good thing about this is, no mod-firings. :p It's easy to jump right in if there are problems and you happen to miss a day. It just means you would have missed a chance to win the round.

Ok, so Round 1, sally...these are your "Honest" red taters. Pick the winner and give your reasons for picking the winner. You may of course explain your decision as detailed as you'd like, but just make sure you give your reasons for the winner. :)

Theoden
Frodo Baggins
The Witch-King
The Shire
Fangorn Forest
Samwise Gamgee
Tol-in-Gaurhoth
Huan
Wargs
Feanor

The rest may, at this time, discuss anything about the selections/dynamics. No one can reveal what they sent me, before sally has chosen a winner. After her judgement though, fair game. :)

[Nogrod]

Okay. Some starters...

Well, you surely can't pick Frodo or Sam as they're both liars - and the Shire itself is a swarming bed of lies. Frodo lied about his intentions even to his closest friends, went around with a false name etc., while Sam at least lied Frodo about their food supplies later on the road... and think of all those hobbits smiling at their mathoms and telling you from between their teeth how they loved them!

Nor Huan! He betrayed his master! Now a good dog doesn't turn against it's master even if there is a nice girl nearby who scratches it the right way...

Maybe you should pick Fëanor, I mean whatever else he did, he was honest to the bone...

[Kitanna]

Maybe you should pick Fëanor, I mean whatever else he did, he was honest to the bone...
I was going to say the Witch-King for much the same. Because he was always honest with his plans for Frodo and his duty to his master.

[Boromir88]

*heh gleefully smiles...big glee* :D

[Meneltarmacil]

To state the obvious, Tol-in-Gaurhoth is the worst possible choice if you're looking for honesty.

[Galadriel55]

To state the obvious, Tol-in-Gaurhoth is the worst possible choice if you're looking for honesty.

But I like it best. :D

[the phantom]

Hmmmm....

I think we can toss out the Hobbits for not being the genuine article. As Nog pointed out, Hobbits have this appearance of adorable goodness but they are massive liars. I mean- there's a chapter in Lord of the Rings entitled "A Conspiracy Unmasked" that is all about how Hobbits are lying to one another.

With the same reasoning Huan is supposed to be good but turns on his master. Bad dog!

The Witch King and Tol-In-Gaurhoth on the other hand- I don't penalize them quite so much because at least they're a known quantity. Our Tol-In-Gaurhoth contests are completely based upon (to quote Laura) being a lying liar that lies a lot. Thus these two answers make sense from an amusement standpoint.

Wargs are, well... wargs. I can't particularly say if they're honest or not. And Fangorn- there are good trees and bad trees, so again it's difficult to say.

Theoden I suppose would be a decent straightforward choice (I don't recall any deceit on his part), though he wasn't so good at spotting honesty seeing as he let Grima hang about all the time.

Which of course leaves Feanor as the obvious decision. He was rather straightforward, and didn't seem to care about the consequences. The guy really meant it when he said, "You guys suck- I'm leaving to kill Morgoth."

So for me it would be between Feanor (the most straightforward answer) and Tol-In-Gaurhoth (the most ridiculous answer).

[Nogrod]

I would disagree with the phantom on two cases.

Firstly Theoden doesn't become less honest by being bad in recognizing dishonesty around him. It's the Forrest Gump thing... Also if one considers the specifications, he can be said to be a most trustworthy person in the end. The only problem I see with him is then that he is a too obvious a choice - although one could argue also that he's not that trustworthy if he can be persuaded to err that easily by Grima-like creatures.

In a similar vein Fangorn Forest doesn't become more or less honest because of there being "good trees and bad trees" - which I think doesn't hold water as a statement in the first place. Anyway, Gandalf trusted the Fangorn for a reason and they proved both truthful and honest when they realized they were no outsiders to the War even if they had previously thought so and took action. One could ask Aragorn or Theoden whether Fangorn is trustworthy...

But yeah, I'd still go for Fëanor, or The Witch-King, for them being interestingly honest in their talk & deeds even if we'd disagree with their aims and actions as such. Or then Tol-In-Gaurhoth, if one can identify it with the werewolf-game (which I'm kind on unsure of): the idea of being "honestly dishonest" as lying and deceit are the defining characters of the game is actually quite nice.

[satansaloser2005]

Well, Sam is right out. Little fellow lied his fool behind off. No eaves indeed. And hobbits are tricksy little creatures, so Frodo is likewise eliminated, as is the Shire.

Theoden might fit the bill, but I tend to think of his situation first rather than the character himself, which leads me to think he is a poor choice.

As for wargs and the forest and the pup in question, I don't think this much applies to them. With the exception of a few notable trees, I don't believe I've found many trees to be either good or evil. Dogs are normally good, but that doesn't make Huan honest, and as for wargs....well, I could make a joke about Eomer, but I'll keep it to myself and simply comment no further on these options.

I could pick Feanor, but I'd only be catering to the phantom's interests, and we can never have that, can we? ;)

The Witch-King (which king?) then. As some others have mentioned, he never tried to hide his evilness. I can appreciate that in a villain. Of course there was deceit involved in other ways, but the Witch-King himself was always pure, honest, downright dirty evil. Definitely something to consider.

And Tol-in-Gaurhoth? Well, you know, there is always deceit in that game. However, I must put forward the following for review:

Also, did you have to say such a painfully honest-sounding thing? Meh.

Now let us also consider this:

I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for.

True words, all. It is the most seemingly trustworthy, the most forthcoming that are the most successful werewolves. They don't lie, they mislead. They tell the truth but conform it to their desires. The best werewolves are not dishonest. They are, instead, the ones who put their furry arm around your fleshy shoulder, tell you they trust you, and then bite you as you're going in for the snuggle.

As such, and given how I like to play Werewolf (actually how I like to play, not just that I like to play), I believe my choice has been made.

++Tol-in-Gaurhoth

[Boromir88]

Thank you, my dear on a just and...honest...judgement. (I had Captain Jack Sparrow's quote in my head for most of the round heh...and refrained from posting it so I did not influence your decision in the most dishonest of manners :p).

And the winner therefor of Round 1 is...

the phantom

May continue to discuss for a little over an hour. And then Round 2 will begin. :D

[satansaloser2005]

Grumble, grumble, grumble. Congratulations to Phantom for, as usual, reading my mind. :p

[Nogrod]

Sally, Nooooooooo!

Tol-In-Gaurhoth is Sauron's keep, not a werewolf game... :p

[Boromir88]

Sally, Nooooooooo!

Tol-In-Gaurhoth is Sauron's keep, not a werewolf game... :p

That is what I had in mind for that one, but hey...successful job of convincing to look at it as the WW game. :p

[satansaloser2005]

Sally, Nooooooooo!

Tol-In-Gaurhoth is Sauron's keep, not a werewolf game... :p

Association is 9/10 of the victory. :smokin:

I'm still cross it was Phantom's pick though. Lord knows I don't want to give him any points. :rolleyes:


EDIT: x'd with my prince

[the phantom]

Tol-In-Gaurhoth is Sauron's keep, not a werewolf game... :p
But I wished it otherwise for the matter at hand.

Thanks, Sally. :D

[Boromir88]

ROUND 2

Green tater: Deadly (fatal, lethal, murderous)
Judge: Nogrod

Everyone should have 7 still. If you deleted/don't know what you have, I've got the list of everyone's current red taters. So PM me and I'll send yours. Otherwise, PM with your choice in 24 hours.

Tally

the phantom - 1 (Honest)

[Nogrod]

Kudos to the phantom...


And then "deadly"... :eek:


Uhh... 24 hours until any action. :(

For possible future editions of the game I'd suggest considering the light multi-tasking of the judge thinking & the players making their possible arguments during the same 24 hour cycle people pick their choice for the next round - as the first is done publicly whilst the other is a PM job.

It shouldn't be too tough on anyone but the game would move on a bit faster.

Or then I should only learn to hold my horses. :rolleyes:

[Lhunardawen]

They are, instead, the ones who put their furry arm around your fleshy shoulder, tell you they trust you, and then bite you as you're going in for the snuggle.
This.

Noggie, maybe for the meantime you need a way to remind the players constantly that Nogrod is a place, not...whatever adjective you might prefer not to be associated with. :p

[Nogrod]

Noggie, maybe for the meantime you need a way to remind the players constantly that Nogrod is a place, not...whatever adjective you might prefer not to be associated with. :pTouché! (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/touch%C3%A9):)

[Boromir88]

Nog, do you mean PM me the Round 3 selection as the Round 2 judging is going on?

Hmm...I had not thought about that, but since I have it planned and laid out in Excel, we could actually do that starting with the Round 2 judging tomorrow. (Assuming no one objects, because it would really cut down on this dragging too long. And it wouldn't be too much of a burden on anyone, since it is only send me a PM in 24 hours).

I think we'll go ahead and do that. When I open up the judging and post the options tomorrow, I'll also post the Round 3 word and judge. That way while the judging phase is going on and people are making arguments. You can also PM me your Round 3 choice. This would cut down on a lot of the wait, while still keeping it a fair amount of time for everyone to send in their choices.

Sound good?

[Galadriel55]

Fine with me. It would indeed cut a lot of waiting time, and the game will be more efficient.

[Nogrod]

You can expect me to agree on the proposal Boro... :)

Anyway, for a normal player (not the judge on that round) it would mean needing to check in once in every 24 hours and send your pick for the next round by PM to Boro. Then it would be up to anyone if they wished to engage in the conversation on the ongoing round or not.

Although I think it would be nicer to have more of the conversation than on that first round - not perhaps more posts by individual players (I think I had three) but a wider selection, like most people saying at least something. I mean at least to me, that's the fun in this, not the selections in the end - or who wins - by themself.

[Boromir88]

And now Round 2 judging. Nogrod here are your choices for "Deadly." You know the drill.

Eowyn
Gaffer Gamgee
Glaurung
Gandalf the White
Forweg
Gothmog (balrog)
Mount Doom
Ancalagon
Sting
Carcharoth

Discuss.

*Note some have exceeded their inbox and I couldn't get any reminders to. Nothing I could do, but I suppose I could extend for an extra hour or so. PM me with your choice for Round 2, and I'll add it to the list, for Nogrod's consideration. (It will be up to him though if he wants to accept the late choices).

-----

But also...to cut down on some of the unnecessary waiting, PM me your round 3 selections in the next 24 hours:

ROUND 3

Green tater: Neglected (ignored, disregarded, rejected)
Judge: Wilwa

[Nogrod]

And now Round 2 judging. Nogrod here are your choices for "Deadly." You know the drill.

Eowyn
Gaffer Gamgee
Glaurung
Gandalf the White
Forweg
Gothmog (balrog)
Mount Doom
Ancalagon
Hmm... this is, well, interesting to make a conservative estimate of the choices. :)

I need to mull these over later today and then sleep on this. Meanwhile the stage is yours to tell me why I should pick this or that.


*Note some have exceeded their inbox and I couldn't get any reminders to. Nothing I could do, but I suppose I could extend for an extra hour or so. PM me with your choice for Round 2, and I'll add it to the list, for Nogrod's consideration. (It will be up to him though if he wants to accept the late choices).Surely: late choices will be considered - especially in this horrible situation...

Although I will have to make my decicion tomorrow about two hours before the DL as I have choir-rehersals beginning at one hour before.

[Meneltarmacil]

Talk about a tough choice.

Although Gaffer Gamgee can be eliminated right away, and Forweg wasn't nearly as dangerous as the others on the list.

I'd say Mount Doom, Gothmog, and the dragons are probably the deadliest, then Gandalf, then Eowyn.

[Gwathagor]

But since Gandalf the White came back from death, he should probably be considered the opposite of dead...ly.

[Lhunardawen]

One thing we could do is make a tally of each one's kills, but I think in the end it's going to be more about the prominence and widespread impact of the kill(s) than the number. Ancalagon was the mightiest of the dragons, but Glaurung's indirect "kills" are kind of more relevant to us since we're given a more detailed account of what he did. He might not have killed Túrin or Nienna directly, but his actions significantly contributed to their deaths. Gothmog killed 2 High Kings of the Noldor, Fëanor and Fingon. Mount Doom "killed" Gollum and the Ring, which ushered the end of an age. Eowyn killed the Witch King, an act that most people then probably thought impossible, not to mention it crippled Sauron's forces and psychological edge somewhat. Gandalf...is a lot of things, but I'm personally not as ready to associate deadly with him as with the others on the list. I will unabashedly admit that I cannot remember who Forweg was.

Based on this, it's Glaurung, Gothmog, and Mount Doom for me (in no particular order - at least for now). More thoughts when I wake up.

[Gwathagor]

Maybe even more important than the prominence or impact of the kills would be the strength/relative deadliness of the person killed? Which probably puts Gothmog or Eowyn at the top of the list.

[Lhunardawen]

Good point, Gwath. That does make Eowyn one deadly chick. In Gothmog's case, one could argue that First-Age, Light-of-the-Two-Trees Noldorin Elves cannot be that much stronger than a Balrog, but he was slain by Ecthelion. Also, Mount Doom is now a wimp that cannot pick on somebody its own size. (Edit: Only in Gollum's case. For the One Ring, maybe not.)

[Boromir88]

After sifting through the PMs...just to make note here.

Sting and Carcharoth have been added, and that should be it for this round. :)

[Boromir88]

I can say, I do not envy Nog at the moment. This one will probably come down to the arguments, which I have to admit can be an interesting dynamic to this on-line version.

As someone alluded to before, in the live A2A, you sort of just make a snap decision in a minute, based on whatever immediately makes the most sense to you.

At first, I thought about just being the lone judge, and that way there would be no reason to keep it anonymous...just post everything here and convince me with arguments.

But the major part of the interest (at least for me) in A2A is the rotation of players judging. You really have to think how each person is going to interpret the round, and the words played...it's quite fantastic, and I couldn't remove that part of the game.

Long story short...I hope this is as amusing for you, as it is for me so far. :D

[Kitanna]

But since Gandalf the White came back from death, he should probably be considered the opposite of dead...ly.

But Gandalf was a war monger. What's more deadly than that? Countless lives were lost because of him.

And then there's Eowyn. You all know the damage she caused with her behavior. The Witch-King was only out for a stroll. Though Gandalf's history books tell a different story.

[Gwathagor]

Sting and Carcharoth probably both have pretty decent kill counts themselves. Someone should tally those up.

[Galadriel55]

Sting. A truly deadly sword.

[Gwathagor]

Sting wounded the cave troll, whose hide notched Boromir's blade. Plus all those countless victims during the Gondolin wars. And Shelob, the last child of Ungoliant the Great herself!

And if we're judging the entries by their enemies and victims, Carcharoth certainly gets some points. Huan...Beren...and then there's the Silmaril which he freaking ate. Not a lot of people can say that.

[Nogrod]

I was first thinking of Gaffer Gamgee and his killing humours, or Forweg who managed to be deadly on himself... but yes, maybe there just isn't that last tint of humour there that would have made them excellent choices over the more deadly ones.

Also, Mount Doom seems to score quite low with me right now. It is decisive, it is great, it is remarkable, great, powerful etc. and the forcing of the ring there brought on a lot of death and the destroying of it as well, but I'd still say it was the ring and it's maker, not the forge itself as such, that was deadly. And like Lhûna said, you should be courageous enough to pick someone of your size in the first place... :)

I'm also not so keen on counting the numbers of the deaths but rather the "quality or the execution of them" - if it can be phrased that way. :rolleyes:

At the moment I tend to favour Sting, Gandalf the White, Gothmog, Carcaroth - followed by the dragons.

Eowyn was deadly to the Witch King but to none other. Here I think the quality over quantity argument doesn't fit...

Had there been "the oath of Fëanor" or "Húrin's bane" on offer, I would have picked them immediately.

Talking of which, one could say that the company of Gandalf the White is deadly as if you follow him you follow death springing forwards wherever he goes...

Well, I have to sleep on this.

[the phantom]

Eowyn- She killed the Witch King... after a Hobbit rendered him killable and paralyzed with a magical anti-Nazgul sword.

Gaffer Gamgee- The obvious humor choice here- his ridiculous sayings would certainly cause one to die a little inside whenever uttered.

Glaurung- Legit deadly. Killed tons of Elves/Men/Dwarves before Angband's gates and at Nargothrond.

Gandalf the White- Certainly deadly, but didn't deal death nearly so much as those that enjoyed it. But I suppose the two issues are separate. He's legit (though I'd rank Glaurung ahead).

Forweg- The leader of a band of outlaws ought to be worthy of consideration, but not next to Glaurung I should think.

Mount Doom- Ooo, interesting... It was used to cover the armies of Mordor in their deadly invasions, and used to forge the deadly Ring, and look at what all the Ring did! Not a conventional choice perhaps, but certainly a fitting one.

Ancalagon- Another dragon! Glaurung was the father of the race, but Ancalagon might've been the deadliest. Of course we cannot know for certain as he was relatively short-lived and his first mission was his last. Picking him would have to be based upon potential and reputation rather than deeds.

Sting- It was put to excellent use in Mirkwood and again at Cirith Ungol, but I don't think killing spiders catapults Sting into the realm of Ancalagon and the like. By that logic we could nominate a fly-swatter.

Carcharoth- He did kill Beren. Except that Beren didn't die permanently. He did kill Huan though, but that point is balanced by Huan killing him in return. Like Ancalagon, it seems he wasn't allowed free realm to use his skills, so it'd be a pick based upon potential rather than deeds once again.

Gothmog (balrog)- Perhaps the deadliest on the list, The Lord of Balrogs- busy killing things from the moment it was possible to do so. Though he had all kinds of help, he still gets the notoriety of striking the death blow on the King of the Noldor twice (Feanor & Fingon), plus the countless Elves and Men (and whatever) he cut down during battles/wars.

So for my money, Gothmog and Glaurung are the top choices, with Mount Doom as a nice outside-the-box choice, and Gaffer as the RL choice I'd make just because it makes me laugh.

[Loslote]

Eowyn - it could be argued that she herself was the deadly one, whereas the mighty warriors' deadliness came from their skills and weapons, not an innate quality within themselves. Eowyn, however, was in a way fated to kill the Witch-King - no one else had the power to do so. To the Witch-King, Eowyn was the only deadly one.

Gaffer Gamgee - I'm having a hard time seeing him as deadly, I must admit.

Glaurung - not just deadly, but with a added evil spice to it. Deadly plus, if you will.

Gandalf the White - Gandalf was deadly more in a theoretical way than in a bash-in-heads way, I think. Sure, he killed some guys, but more importantly, he was deadly to Sauron's plans.

Forweg - deadly? Maybe 'slimy' or 'nasty' - he doesn't seem like the kind of guy I'd like to hang around, but also not so very fearsome in battle.

Mount Doom - dangerous, perhaps, but not deadly.

Ancalagon - supposedly the most powerful dragon ever, but we don't see it. Moreover, when talking about him, we get quotes like "nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring" - so, basically, this dragon, too, is dangerous but was never proven to be deadly.

Sting - going by the Eowyn logic, Sting, too, possessed a certain amount of innate deadliness that, for me, sets it apart from the warriors in this list. Sting, however, does require a wielder in order to be deadly, which somewhat negates its innate deadliness.

Carcharoth - dangerous, for sure, and deadly to all sorts of little elf-soldiers - but not so deadly the time we see the most of him, so I'm not all that inclined to think him especially deadly.

Gothmog - I would say Gothmog is deadly in all senses of the word. Killing things left and right, that one, and not just the sort of evil dude to kill little elf-soldiers by the dozens only to flop when he gets to a main character - no, Gothmog doesn't care if his foe is himself deadly, he just goes right ahead with the killing.

Gothmog, for me, is definitely tops, followed by Eowyn and Gandalf.

[Meneltarmacil]

Regarding Ancalagon's deadliness, I think he should still rank above Glaurung. Ancalagon, though not as significant storywise, was still the greatest of the dragons and should be recognized as such. And even though he didn't cause as many main character deaths as Glaurung, there were no doubt plenty of deaths during the War of Wrath that can be attributed to Ancalagon.

Speaking of the War of Wrath, I believe that the winged dragons led by Ancalagon were enough to make even the Valar retreat, even after fighting through the rest of Morgoth's army (which probably included Balrogs). Were it not for Earendil, the battle could still have gone to Morgoth thanks to Ancalagon.

[Nogrod]

Not willing to go into the discussion as whether Ancalagon's potential should be more deadly than what Glaurung actually did, or whether Gothmog would outweigh them in deadliness - and where would Carcaroth then fall on this line - I need to set all these great candidates aside.

Had someone suggested separately whether any one of them would be a good card to play for "deadly" I would have agreed enthusiastically that you had a fitting card indeed - but too many of them just messes one's head.

Even if I kind of liked Lottie's idea about Eowyn's innate deadliness, I must discard Eowyn as well. It's true The Witch King could be killed by "no man", but then conversely it means he could have been killed by "any woman"... :Merisu:

Leaving Mount Doom, Gaffer and Forweg out from consideration on grounds I made already before I'm left with Sting and Gandalf the White then.


Sting is a deadly weapon indeed, a cave troll and Shelob learned that. But it just doesn't feel like being enough.

Gandalf the White, then again, draw death around him anywhere he went being responsible for thousands of deaths all over the place: where he rode, death and distruction followed. Also as Gandalf the White he sure was a deadly combatant also in himself: he killed a balrog as a grey version, so what could he have done as White one? It's hard to see many who could have gotten alive from his hands if there was a fight.

So without further ado... (Needs to go to choir rehersals)

++ Gandalf the White

[the phantom]

Who played Gaffer? I would've picked it. :D

[Boromir88]

And the Round 2 winner is...

Kitanna.

Congrats, according to this game, you are deadly. :D

Can continue discussing this round for about an hour and a half. (And anyone else who wants to reveal what they sent in may do so if they desire).

Edit: And this round I was sooo tempted to post quotes and tidbits for arguments. Particularly Gandalf saying he is indeed perilous and mighty, even though "Black is mightier still." It might look like Gandalf is showing humility in this sense, but really he's just saying "I can whoop anyone who isn't Sauron right now" :p...of course to do this would be a major violation of my duties.

[the phantom]

And anyone else who wants to reveal what they sent in may do so if they desire.
I played...

*drum roll*

Nothing! :p

[Loslote]

Even if I kind of liked Lottie's idea about Eowyn's innate deadliness, I must discard Eowyn as well. It's true The Witch King could be killed by "no man", but then conversely it means he could have been killed by "any woman"... :Merisu:

So close! I, of course, played Eowyn. ;)

[Lhunardawen]

Played Gothmog. Too bad we don't go by votes. Or by the phantom's choice. :D

Oddly enough, I had a bad feeling I won't win when a lot of you (well, us) chose him.

[Boromir88]

?Ugh lost track of time sorry everyone.

First the tally...

the phantom - 1 (Honest)
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)

---

ROUND 3.

Wilwa, your choices for "Neglected" are...

"The Bath Song"
Merry Brandybuck
King of the Dead
Halls of Mandos
Weathertop
Celebrimbor
Cats of Beruthiel
Entwives
The Party Tree
Radagast
The Lonely Mountain

---

And PM your reds for Round 4 by this time tomorrow.

Green tater: Insane (psychotic, deranged, mad)
Judge: Galadriel55

*Oh and if it was sort of confusing, any previous round discussion is fine too...like if anyone wants to reveal what their red tater was for any of the past rounds, not a problem. Simply because we're onto Round 3, does not mean you all previous round talk has to end.*

[Gwathagor]

Neglected synonyms: abandoned, affronted, cast aside, decayed, declined, deferred, depreciated, deserted, despised, deteriorated, disdained, dismissed, disregarded, evaded, forgotten, ignored, lapsed, omitted, overlooked, passed over, postponed, scorned, shunned, spurned, tossed aside, unconsidered, underestimated, undervalued, unheeded, unused, unwanted, unwatched

[Lhunardawen]

Merry, at the Pelennor Fields. Brilliant choice. The Lonely Mountain gave me a chuckle.

[the phantom]

Don't strike me as neglected-

"The Bath Song"- Not sung enough these days?
Merry Brandybuck- One instance isn't enough for me.
Halls of Mandos- Plenty of visitors.
The Party Tree- Umm, it was totally invited to parties.
Celebrimbor- Had a following and was buds with Dwarves and Elves.
Cats of Beruthiel- Beruthiel saw to them.

THE CONTENDERS-

Radagast- I can see this one being argued but I think his isolation was self-imposed.

Weathertop- Once a great watch-tower, but then fell into ruin and only the occasional Ranger drops by. I'd say it qualifies.

Entwives- Their hubbies didn't care about their hobbies and didn't visit often enough, and eventually got "lost". Yep, that qualifies.

King of the Dead- Cursed by Isildur and then soundly ignored for about 3,000 years until Aragorn. Certainly qualifies.

The Lonely Mountain- Ha ha! Actually had indwellers and such so not legitimately neglected, but the name carries it in my book. If we were playing in RL I'd probably pick it in the midst of my giggles.

[Galadriel55]

If I would have been the judge I would have so picked Entwives, cause it just cracks me up. The Lonely Mountain is quite brilliant too, and quite funny. And I can picture the neglected Halls of Mandos looking quite awful (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2009/05/22/2009253800.jpg), which is pretty funny. After all, those Halls have ages and ages of use on them...


Who played Gaffer? I would've picked it.

I did, hehe. :D

Edit: xed with tp

[Gwathagor]

Lonely Mountain. Nice.

[Nogrod]

Neglected (ignored, disregarded, rejected)


"The Bath Song" - Actually one of my favourites. The "absurdo-meter" rings loud and clear! And you could come up with reasons as well: just think of the songs Tolkien wrote and which of them are celebrated, composed to music, heralded as great English literature masterpieces... you don't find the Bath Song from the list of top-recorded Tolkien songs or from the academic papers analysing Tolkien's poetry. Ignored, disregarded, rejected... yes.

Merry Brandybuck - Another one I like: I would say he's the most neglected major character by the prof in the whole LotR, and compared to the closest meaningful parallel aka. Pippin it's clear Pip gets time and attention whereas Merry is mostly just tossed around ignored and disregarded - even rejected by Theoden. The Pelennor fields just seems to top his fate as the ignored character.

King of the Dead - Like someone said already, being forgotten and neglected inside their mountainy-tomb for millenia. The fact there wasn't a true heir to Isildur around to fulfill the prophecy might be played as cause for the neglect (so it is not negligence as such but just that the conditions for invoking them were not ripe until Aragorn turned in) but they were surely disregarded, nevertheless.

Halls of Mandos - Maybe I should like this one because it doesn't seem to make any sense to me. But it doesn't make a funny or absurd sense either. It's an ever enlargening and ever crowding place and one of the most important places in Valinor every elf would have to consider. An elf really couldn't ignore - not to talk of disregarding or rejecting - the Halls of Mandos! Well, maybe as the actual "contradiction" card taking the satirical meaning: the most important place = the most ignored place...

Weathertop - Weathertop had been in a sense neglected for a long time by most of the folks - but then again no one kind of lived near enough (which could be used as argument for them being neglected as well). But if we look just at the LotR, no one can say Weathertop is neglected or ignored! Gandalf and Aragorn saw it important enough a place to pay a visit there even if was side from the main routes - and the Nazgûl thought it important enough to keep constant watch on it.

Celebrimbor - Hmm. There is some considerable lack of data concerning Celebrimbor and it could be actually argued he is - as a character - neglected by Mr. Tolkien. Or to be more precise: he was added into the legendarium to fill a place but Tolkien never quite got into writing about him and to make him a real character of "flesh and blood" but left him as just a name and a place-filler. Actually a pretty decent choice.

Cats of Beruthiel - Well, on top of what tp said that they had the love and company of Beruthiel herself - and were very important to her - one could add that they became legendary creatures tales were told generation after generation. Yes, Tolkien gave us very little of them and could be said to have ignored them somewhat, but that notwithstanding, they were highly considered and known all over, even in common sayings of the third age...

Entwives - It's hard to see any argument seriously stating Entwives to be neglected. Disappeared: yes. Neglected, disregarded, ignored - or rejected(!), no way! They were on the ents' minds constantly and they thought of them all the time asking anyone they met if they had seen the Entwives - and they sang about them, reminisced them, thought of them all the time - and longed for them deeply. That's hardly what you'd call negligence.

The Party Tree - Like somene said: it's the centerpiece of a festival. You could also point out that it takes a lot of work to pick, fall and erect it - not to talk of decorating it. Yes, one could argue that after the festival is over the Party tree could be neglected or disregarded - but I doubt the Hobbits did that. And anyway, it should be some random "ex-party tree" then, not "The Party tree" - which clearly points at the one on Bilbo's jubilee.

Radagast - echoing tp here: "the isolation was self-imposed". And adding this: if we wish to talk of neglected or ignored wizards, then how about talking of the so called Blue Wizards first? You may say Saruman disregarded his importance and ignored his particular role - but even with his erring conception of Radagast he didn't neglect him but tried to use him to his own ends.

The Lonely Mountain - Haha! I think this has winner-qualities. I mean whatever the actual negligence (which probably isn't that true) the name kind of does it. If something is named the Lonely Mountain then how do you argue against it? Okay, one could try saying that if it had been truly neglected or ignored no one would have bothered to name it in the first place... but well, I just like this pick.

[wilwarin538]

FYI, I'm going to be making my decision pretty early because I'm going out of town tonight (so basically within the next 4 hours).

So I kinda want to just pick Lonely Mountain because it made me laugh so hard, but I suppose I should consider some other options. ;)

The other ones that struck me as possibly fitting the bill were Entwives, Weathertop, King of the Dead and Radagast.

I think Phantom and Nog are right in saying that Radagast really didn't want very much attention to begin with, so you can't really neglect something that wants to be alone.

The Entwives are a bit tough, cause when we hear about them it's more about the fact that they are lost and the Ents are trying to find them, but the reason they are gone could very well be because the Ents neglected them. But I think in the end the fact that the Ents seem to miss them so much means they are no longer neglected, so I guess they don't completely qualify.

Weathertop is a pretty good contender because of the state it was in. A truly valued watchtower would not be left to fall into ruin, so it was definitely neglected for a long time.

Then the King of the Dead (and all his men) were neglected for thousands of years, left in that weird restless state until Aragorn showed up and allowed them to be useful.

Soooo....I want to pick the Lonely Mountain for the humour factor (in the real life game humour is usually what I go with), but Weathortop and King of the Dead do have legitimate reasons to be chosen. I'll think about it for a bit.

[wilwarin538]

I has to make a decision now because I'm about to leave for a very long bus ride.

So I'm going to go with the humorous choice, because it was my initial reaction and what I would do in the RL game.

++Lonely Mountain

Congrats to who ever made that choice, very clever. ;)

For the next few days of the game I won't be posting at all but will be participating still by texting my choices to Boro, I'm sure I will have a lot of interesting things to read when I get home ^_^

[Boromir88]

Congratulations Master Gwath on the very humorous selection. I think everyone got a good laugh at that one.

(And yet again, I was tempted to post things such as..."Sure The Lonely Mountain was inhabitted, but it's not just humorous in the name. It's neglected by its own kind...all other Mountains!" :p)

Well. A bit of a long wait. Safe travels wilwa.

Open discussion now, until tomorrow. (Hopefully I will not forget time again tomorrow :rolleyes: )

[the phantom]

Yep, that was the right pick. I was hoping you weren't feeling so mirthful and would pick my card, King of the Dead, but ah well...

[Galadriel55]

Well-deserved victory, I say!

My pick, Halls of Mandos, could have been considered funny, random, or sarcastic, but it doesn't reach half as far as Lonely Mountain!

[Meneltarmacil]

While I picked Weathertop, I probably would have gone with the Lonely Mountain as well.

[Gwathagor]

Sometimes the taters align.

This was one of those times.

[Nogrod]

Nice pick Gwath!

I sent Merry and was actually a bit disappointed Wilwa didn't even consider picking him... I mean c'mon, he is always playing the second fiddle, and while everyone in the fellowship becomes a person and comes to the fore here and there, Merry is mostly just in the way and tossed here an there - and at the moment of his glory he is forgotten to the battlefield... :(

But to be honest, there were lots of other good choices to make as well. Although I don't think the Entwives was one. I would say them to be the opposite of neglected or ignored being constantly in the minds of the ents and as the dearest object of their daily longing.

[Galadriel55]

Who picked "The Bath Song" (if you don't mind telling)?

[Nogrod]

Who picked "The Bath Song" (if you don't mind telling)?Haha, seconded!

I mean had I been the judge on this round I would have seriously considered picking "The Bath Song"... You can find academic studies of the philosophical underpinnings of the Walking Song or the interaction of mediaval and romantic imagery and verse on the Song of Boromir - or you can hear composers making their versions of the Lament of Gandalf or the song of the ents and entwives... but where is all the fuzz about the Bath Song?

[Galadriel55]

Well, the Tolkien Ensemble has a nice version of the Bath Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVf_Vgr7kVk

But that's just one interpretation and beside the point anyways. I'm curious about the reasons for choosing it and just who picked it.

[Boromir88]

Tally

the phantom - 1 (Honest)
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)
Gwath - 1 (Neglected)

----

ROUND 4

Galadriel55 your options for "Insane" are...

Tar-Atanamir
Gollum/Smeagol
Denethor
Angband
Mouth of Sauron
Ted Sandyman
Tom Bombadil
Fatty Bolger
Lobelia
Numenor
Thorin Oakenshield

---

ROUND 5

Green tater: Cuddly (loving, tender, huggable, soft)
Judge: MCRmygirl4eva

[Nogrod]

Insane (psychotic, deranged, mad)

Haha! Denethor and Tom Bombadill surely qualify! :D

And why not Gollum & Thorin... :rolleyes:

[Gwathagor]

Denethor and Gollum would be the obvious choices. Fatty Bolger is probably the least insane character in the entire mythos...but maybe only a true psychopath could manage to appear so perfectly innocuous.

[the phantom]

I think Nog has the idea- Gollum, Denethor, Bombadil, and Thorin all showed some signs of nuttiness.

[Galadriel55]

I was very excited when I found out I have such an insane green tater. :D

I would have to think about it, really. Bombadil is quite nuts with all that singing, which makes me like this choice. Denethor, Gollum, and Thorin are all too true. And "insane Angband" sounds like something I would say in ME instead of "holy cow", so it makes me laugh. I suppose that Fatty Bolger was not at his sanest when he ran away from the Nazgul, starting the "FEAR! FIRE! FOES! AWAKE!" signal.

I shall have to think further.

[the phantom]

Bombadil is crazy: "The world is going to crap around me, la la la. No one knows who or what I am, hey dilly. I treat the Ring like it's a trinket, ding dillo. And I could really help on this adventure, but I'm staying here to... dance and stuff."

Denethor is crazy: "We're screwed! I'm just going to kill myself. Oh, and my son too. Duty to kingdom? Ha! I like fire better."

Thorin is crazy: "I'm going to reclaim my kingdom with the help of twelve dwarves and a hobbit. There's a dragon there, but, uh, something will... happen, I think. Anyway, we can steal from him. If he doesn't kill us. And if we can get in. And then I'll lock myself in the mountain."

Gollum is crazy: "I like my master. No, I don't, he's tricksy. But we want to destroy the Dark Lord, but no- I don't want to, because the Ring is my precious. But I hate it. Etc. etc."

All legit crazy I'd say...

[Nogrod]

Fatty Bolger is one of the most sane hobbits there is fex. by not willing to take part on that really crazy adventure - and being the organizer of all things there in the beginning requires a steady and composed mind anyway. It's hard to call his kind deranged, mad or insane - or psychotic. Choosing him would be insane - haha, an argument for picking him!

Ted Sandyman and Lobelia may be baddies of some sort but they are not insane. They are just people trying to capitulate from others - normal twenty-first century people that is. Well, one could describe our time as an insane age so therefore why not?

Tar Atanamir could make it into the same slot with Ted and Lobelia, only he is not a commoner on some far-away land aside from the civilization.
but he was a greedy and "unwilling" (as they called him) to die but that I think - looking at it from a mortal POV - is no sign of being deranged or mad. Who of us wishes to die?

Angband or Mouth of Sauron insane? No. Deranged, mad, psychotic? Not either. They were working perfectly reasonably and to the point. Bad, evil, corruptive? Yes - but those are other Red Taters than "insane".

Númenor being insane, psychotic, deranged or mad? Now excuse me as a great fan of Númenor! It's the heyday of humanity! Now some of it's rulers - late in their history - might have been too full of themselves and building the path to their own undergoing, but that Númenor itself would be something like insane, well no. If you say Númenor is insane you say that Valar were psychotic creating it, or that Eru himself was deranged allowing it's creation - or that Elros was mad - or Elendil or... (pick your favourite Númenorian here)

So I really think it leaves the choices into: Gollum/Smeagol, Denethor, Tom Bombadil, and Thorin Oakenshield.

[Nogrod]

Thanks phantom for giving me the stuff to comment on for my top candidates...
Bombadil is crazy: "The world is going to crap around me, la la la. No one knows who or what I am, hey dilly. I treat the Ring like it's a trinket, ding dillo. And I could really help on this adventure, but I'm staying here to... dance and stuff."Yeah. He's the Tralla-lally guy. A perfect match in a sense. Mad, insane, deranged... even if not psychotic I'd say. But then again, being this older than the oldest living beings I doubt Eru would have given precedence to a Joker... So there must also be a wisdom of sorts there - and Gandalf seeked his advice anyway -and he wouldn't take an insane person seriously.

But well, he is crazy whatever one argues... :rolleyes:

Denethor is crazy: "We're screwed! I'm just going to kill myself. Oh, and my son too. Duty to kingdom? Ha! I like fire better."Denethor is deranged by the Palantir, he is insane in not letting any other information come through but building his own deranged reality, he is mad for losing his wits because of that, and psychotic in his insistence of burning also Faramir in his folly when it really takes over. No counter arguement there I can see.

Except one could say the real reason for his folly was Sauron and not him... (compare to the arguments made on Sting or Eowyn)

Thorin is crazy: "I'm going to reclaim my kingdom with the help of twelve dwarves and a hobbit. There's a dragon there, but, uh, something will... happen, I think. Anyway, we can steal from him. If he doesn't kill us. And if we can get in. And then I'll lock myself in the mountain."
Thorin clearly got deranged after gaining the dwarven treasure - and it is plain obvious he became mad in the end. Denying the offer from the elves, men and Gandalf was just insane and his insistence on it was psy: chotic to the bone...

Except one could say - like in the case of Denethor - that there was an outside factor that made him that way. In many occasions, well before gaining the treasure, Thorin was the most reasonable dwarf...

Gollum is crazy: "I like my master. No, I don't, he's tricksy. But we want to destroy the Dark Lord, but no- I don't want to, because the Ring is my precious. But I hate it. Etc. etc."Now Gollum seems to fit it perfectly. Insane, psychotic, deranged, mad... Surely he is deranged (by the Ring), psychotic (for his insistence on having it whatever it meant), mad (for losing his wits even if Frodo offered him a chance for redemption), and insane in trying to accomplish something that could only be his own downfall (did he really think he could have become the Lord of the Rings with Sauron, Gandalf and all the others just nodding to it?).



In a way all the others were made crazy by something else: The ring made Gollum deranged, the treasure made Thorin psychotic, the Palantir made Denethor insane - but Bombadil was "mad" by himself... but then again it can be questioned whether the "Old Tom" was insane or whether it was the world around him that was mad? :rolleyes:

I'm happy I'm not judging this round...

[Meneltarmacil]

I suppose that Fatty Bolger was not at his sanest when he ran away from the Nazgul, starting the "FEAR! FIRE! FOES! AWAKE!" signal.
I think running away upon seeing a Nazgul is pretty sane.

[Galadriel55]

I think running away upon seeing a Nazgul is pretty sane.

Sure, but what about mumbling something along the lines of "I don't have it! I didn't do it!" at a neighbour's threshold?

[Kitanna]

I think running away upon seeing a Nazgul is pretty sane.

I'm pretty sure wetting your trousers in fear at this point would be reasonably sane too.

I think Denethor ranks high up on this list, maybe even above Gollum. Not only did he allow himself to go mad by way of the palantir, he tried to drag his son down with him.

Everyone went a little nutty because of the ring, but it takes a real loon to lose it with the palantir.

[Nogrod]

Everyone went a nutty because of the ring, but it takes a real loon to lose it with the palantir.Fair point. :)

I'm off to our summer cottage with Greenie, Lommy and Aganzir and will be back on Sunday. I'll be able to PM my choices to Boro with my phone but will not probably make too kmany comments on the thread before Sunday.

See you then.

[Galadriel55]

Tar-Atanamir - he wasn't the nicest guy, but I can't say he was insane either.

Gollum/Smeagol - a bad case of schizophrenia and multiple identities. Not quite normal. I will consider him.

Denethor - quite nuts at the end. Just raving. Another one to consider.

Angband - well, saying "insane Angband" is quite funny, but it lacks the final shine to pick it.

Mouth of Sauron - insane MoS? I don't know. Seemed quite not so to me.

Ted Sandyman - insane? Him? Well maybe only a little bit. Not really enough.

Tom Bombadil - yet another one to consider. Even without the influence of the Ring he seems half cracked, and his songs can drive anyone out of their mind (which is also a good point, I suppose).

Fatty Bolger - a bit cracked when mumbling his story, but not enough to really make me pick him.

Lobelia - well poking a Ruffian twice her height with an umbrella is quite insane, but again, it's not enough to compete with the others

Numenor - perhaps I'm slow but I can't see how Numenor is insane.

Thorin Oakenshield - that one lost his wits with all that gold in his eyes. One more candidate I would consider.


So I have Thorin, Bombadil, Denethor, and Gollum as my candidates. I will narrow it down from here.

I would say that Gollum is out first, since he knows exactly what he is doing despite his multiple identities thing. He has weird manners, but his head is turned the right way, so to speak.

Now if I use the same reasoning Bombadil is out too, since beside his unusual habits he is quite sane and knows what he's doing. (But I like this one very much and it's a really close thing that I didn't pick Tom)

Between Thorin and Denethor now. They both seem to forget themselves during their moments of madness. Thorin's is caused by gold and greed, Denethor's by Sauron's influence and the palantir.

It is said that dragon's gold especially increases the greed factor, so with a stretch it could be said that Thorin had an outside influence. But with a stretch. I believe it is mostly his own ambition and greed. So if I go that way, Denethor's insanity was caused by his precarious use of the palantir and Sauron's influence. And Thorin's - through his own greed and ambition. And going from that, if it wasn't for Sauron's enchantments, Denethor would have been sane. If it wasn't for a dragon's enchantments, Thorin would have still gone mad.

So -

++THORIN OAKENSHIELD

[Boromir88]

And the first person to 2 then is....

the phantom

Congrats, the wild card Thorin pulls off the upset over the heavy contenders.

[Galadriel55]

Wow. :D :rolleyes:



Who picked Bombadil and Denethor? You alllllmost won.

[Boromir88]

Tally

the phantom - 2 (Honest, Insane)
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)
Gwath - 1 (Neglected)

----

ROUND 5

MCR your task is to choose which of these is the cuddliest...again, uhh good luck? :p

Alqualonde
Mumakil
The Wacher in the Water
Gimli
Smaug
Orome
Goblin-town
Morgoth
Fellbeast
The One Ring
Celeborn

----

ROUND 6

Green tater: Extraordinary (distinguished, dignified, acclaimed)
Judge: the phantom

[Lhunardawen]

Round 6 green tater and judge: how very fitting.

PS. This has to be the most insane round of red taters. :p Smaug. I'd have considered Fellbeast if not for the stink. Can't wait to see how you'll reason this one out, MCR. :D

[Galadriel55]

Round 6 green tater and judge: how very fitting.

Ditto!

ETA: What a collection of cuddly beasts and random whatnot MCR has to decide from!!! :eek:

[the phantom]

I'd love to accept the praise at face value, but I suspect you're merely looking to score a point through flattery...

"Now that I've said that about you, pick THIS." :p

[Lhunardawen]

You wound me deeply, phantom dear. How could you think that of me?

[Boromir88]

Just as a note, Celeborn's added.

[the phantom]

I DON'T GET IT
Alqualonde

I'm not sure how to spin this one at all. Possibly someone just getting rid of a card to get a new one.

HUMOROUS CONTRADICTIONS
Mumakil
Morgoth
Fellbeast
The Wacher in the Water
Smaug
Goblin-town

These are all along the same lines, so one simply must decide which does it the best. For my money a nasty Fellbeast or Watcher beats out Mumakil and Goblin-town, and the tentacles and watery quality of the watcher I think trumps Fellbeast. Morgoth is funny in the same way Smaug is (they'd both be terribly insulted), but I find Morgoth funnier given his status as supreme villain.

ANOMALY
The One Ring

We find people stroking the Ring and calling it "precious", so it nearly fits despite the fact that it totally isn't cuddly. The fact that it works as both serious and humorous makes this selection interesting.

HUMOROUS ABSURD
Orome
Gimli
Celeborn

These would depend on the possibility of one of them simply striking you as stupid/funny (in RL I imagine I would select one of these). The great and powerful warrior Orome as "cuddly" is worth a giggle, the overshadowed Celeborn viewed as a cuddle-toy for his powerful wife gets a giggle, and the little bearded guy with a big axe being picked up and hugged definitely makes me grin.

CONCLUSION

TOSS OUT
Alqualonde
Mumakil
Smaug
Goblin-town
Fellbeast

CONTENDERS
Morgoth- The mocking selection.
Watcher- The contradictory selection.
One Ring- The interesting selection.
Orome
Gimli
Celeborn- The in-the-moment silly selections.

[Galadriel55]

I These are all along the same lines, so one simply must decide which does it the best. For my money a nasty Fellbeast or Watcher beats out Mumakil and Goblin-town, and the tentacles and watery quality of the watcher I think trumps Fellbeast.

And just think what happens next if the Watcher tries to cuddle you back...:eek::D

ANOMALY
The One Ring

We find people stroking the Ring and calling it "precious", so it nearly fits despite the fact that it totally isn't cuddly. The fact that it works as both serious and humorous makes this selection interesting.

I agree. I like this one too. It's the most original one, I suppose.

[Nogrod]

TOSS OUT
Alqualonde
Mumakil
Smaug
Goblin-town
Fellbeast

CONTENDERS
Morgoth- The mocking selection.
Watcher- The contradictory selection.
One Ring- The interesting selection.
Orome
Gimli
Celeborn- The in-the-moment silly selections.I don't know how cunningly tp plays at this stage of the game, but I'd give you MCR an advice not to pick any of the last (aka. "the contenders") unless you want to give the phantom a three point lead... :rolleyes:

Mumakil and Smaug are like the soft toys little children have - quite cuddly and huggable - and still in the books something completely different. I liked those choices. Gimli would come a close third to me.

Morgoth and The Watcher are already reaching out, like the Fellbeast (you don't make a "teddy-bear" -kind of thing from them that easily).

Towns are not "cuddly" - so people have been just discarding Red Taters they don't like or which don't seem to fit anywhere. Oromë and Celeborn sound more or less the same.

The One Ring? Well yes, that could make the "absurdometer" ring...


Someone asked who sent Denethor in the last round... well I did. It was so close but yet so far... :( ;)

[Nogrod]

An afterthought. Against my verdict in the earlier post, I'd say Celeborn is not that bad a choice. It is actually quite a funny idea. I mean he might need a hug in the world of men Tolkien describes - and him being under the shadow of his wife... :)

And by the way, I might bet on The One Ring being the phantom's choice...

[satansaloser2005]

Who picked "The Bath Song" (if you don't mind telling)?

*waves*

Wow. :D :rolleyes:

Who picked Bombadil and Denethor? You alllllmost won.

Blargh. I think "so close, but yet so far" is just my thing as well, Nog. I had good old Tom.


And don't underestimate reverse psychology. Phantom's tater may be one of those he said to toss out.

[Nogrod]

And don't underestimate reverse psychology. Phantom's tater may be one of those he said to toss out.Not quite yet, Sally. And possibly never in this kind of a game... possibly...

The reverse thing starts to bite when the number of players lessen in numbers (like in werewolf or that *what was it where we voted one person out every round -game?*). But this is different as there will always be 10+ choices. Maybe... :confused:

[Gwathagor]

Maybe Orome actually rode around the woods giving hugs to cuddly furry animals.

[the phantom]

I can't believe you think I have a strategy for Taters to Taters. I think I'm being rather honest, as evidenced by the round in which I had no entry whatsoever. ;)

[Galadriel55]

I can't believe you think I have a strategy for Taters to Taters. I think I'm being rather honest, as evidenced by the round in which I had no entry whatsoever. ;)

"Rather honest"? ;) :p

[the phantom]

Sorry- I should've said I'm "insanely honest" I guess...

[Galadriel55]

Sorry- I should've said I'm "insanely honest" I guess...

Of course you are, O One Who Doth Outhine The Sun. :D

[Boromir88]

MCR get your Round 5 winner in as soon as you can, thanks. As it is though, we'll just proceed...

Tally

the phantom - 2 (Honest, Insane)
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)
Gwath - 1 (Neglected)
Menel - 1 (Cuddly)

----

ROUND 6

the phantom pick the most extraordinary from this list. :)

Gondolin
The Void
Lembas
Music of the Ainur
Isildur
Girdle of Melian
Arwen
The Green Dragon
Mithril
Thuringwethil


----

ROUND 7

Green tater: Violent (furious, vicious, destructive)
Judge: Lottie

(And is it just me or could many of the cuddly options also pass for violent? I suppose those two things aren't mutually exclusive)

[satansaloser2005]

(And is it just me or could many of the cuddly options also pass for violent? I suppose those two things aren't mutually exclusive)

See, if there was a red tater with my name on it, you could use it to win both rounds. :Merisu: :smokin:

[Lhunardawen]

The Void and the Music make for pretty obvious picks. It's a toss-up choosing which between creation and nothingness is more extraordinary.

Edit: "More extraordinary"? Isn't that just like saying "more unique"? :D

[MCRmyGirl4eva]

Alqualonde
Mumakil
The Wacher in the Water
Gimli
Smaug
Orome
Goblin-town
Morgoth
Fellbeast
The One Ring
Celeborn

Out of all of these, there aren't any that I would consider cuddly. So, I shall judge according to the funniest. And the winner is *drumroll*:

MORGORTH!

[Boromir88]

Alqualonde
Mumakil
The Wacher in the Water
Gimli
Smaug
Orome
Goblin-town
Morgoth
Fellbeast
The One Ring
Celeborn

Out of all of these, there aren't any that I would consider cuddly. So, I shall judge according to the funniest. And the winner is *drumroll*:

MORGORTH!


Merci. And the holder of Morgoth was...

Menel

(I first saw the PM at night...laughed so hard it drew shifty eyes looks from others. And opened up the PM again in the morning, just to laugh again. A cuddly Morgoth. :D

[the phantom]

See? MCR was perfectly safe choosing one of those I had set apart.

And apparently it's my turn now...

EXTRAORDINARY

Gondolin- pretty awesome city
The Void- one-of-a-kind and unfathomable
Lembas- weight loss would be no problem
Music of the Ainur- created the world, and would've sounded spectacular
Isildur- not your ordinary King
Girdle of Melian- a magical web of trickery would be very cool
Arwen- I'd love to see Luthien 2.0
The Green Dragon- where funny folks say funny things
Mithril- adamantium's cousin
Thuringwethil- vampires in Middle-Earth

So, should I stay quiet and let everyone fight and promote, or should I say which cards have tickled my fancy and then let people fight and promote?

[Lhunardawen]

Haha Boro, should you get a prize for half-guessing the winner? :D

I DON'T GET IT
Alqualonde

I'm not sure how to spin this one at all. Possibly someone just getting rid of a card to get a new one.
You had me pinned.

[Nogrod]

Existence or non-existence, thats the problem. A void is a mystery, but being maybe more so: why is there something rather than nothing?

[the phantom]

Okay, let's go ahead and narrow things and see who cares to have a say.

NO

Gondolin- A super city, but not what I'm looking for.
Lembas- A cool food, but not what I'm looking for.
Isildur- An important fellow, but not what I'm looking for.
The Green Dragon- A nice gathering place, but not what I'm looking for.
Girdle of Melian- A handy defense, but not what I'm looking for.
Arwen- A great lady, but not Kate Beckin- I mean not what I'm looking for.

CONTENDERS

The Void- Certainly one-of-a-kind, and beyond the norm.
Mithril- I so wish Mithril weapons were real, and that I had one.
Thuringwethil- What would Twilight be if Tolkien had written it?
Music of the Ainur- For a music lover, hearing this would be the ultimate dream.

[Galadriel55]

Thuringwethil- What would Twilight be if Tolkien had written it?

Ew. Don't besmirch the name of Tolkien like that.

[the phantom]

Thuringwethil- What would Twilight be if Tolkien had written it?
Ew.
Your response to something written by Tolkien would be "ew"?

Oh ye of little faith.

But in the meantime, it seems that no one is interested in swaying me towards one answer or the other. How disappointing...

[Galadriel55]

Your response to something written by Tolkien would be "ew"?

No, that's my response to anything Twilight.

But in the meantime, it seems that no one is interested in swaying me towards one answer or the other. How disappointing...

Pick something that starts with an E. :D

[Boromir88]

But in the meantime, it seems that no one is interested in swaying me towards one answer or the other. How disappointing...

Agreed. Where is the massive bribing? :D

[the phantom]

Agreed. Where is the massive bribing?
Perhaps if I named a starting price it would jump-start things?

There's the obvious "pick-mine-and-I-pick-yours" bribe, but I worry that would undermine the spirit of the game.

How about a tribute signature? As an example, Nog is currently receiving tribute in my signature. If you would agree to, say, three days of "Phantom is my hero!" that may tip the scales.
I'm not sure how to spin this one at all. Possibly someone just getting rid of a card to get a new one.
You had me pinned.
Nice to know I can still spot a Wolf in Ordo's clothing.

[Loslote]

How about a tribute signature? As an example, Nog is currently receiving tribute in my signature. If you would agree to, say, three days of "Phantom is my hero!" that may tip the scales.

Phantom is my king,
Phantom is my king,
He always likes my Tater pick,
Phantom is my king.

[satansaloser2005]

Our lovely Boro will not have internet access today, so there will be no new round until tomorrow. Phantom can still pick a winner, of course (and by pick a winner I mean pick my card).

[the phantom]

Well then- more time for people to weigh the final four options.

[Nogrod]

How about a tribute signature? As an example, Nog is currently receiving tribute in my signature. If you would agree to, say, three days of "Phantom is my hero!" that may tip the scales.It would be only decent for me to carry a sig with "the phantom is my hero" for a few days. So you should just pick mine - even if I'm not allowed to tell you which it is you probably know it already. :)

[Nogrod]

Green tater: Extraordinary (distinguished, dignified, acclaimed)


Now the perennial question, I think, is whether something is extraordinary in a qualitative way aka. that there is nothing like it in principle, or whether it is "only" extraordinary quantitatively aka. there are things like it, but it is just a noch more of whatever it is.

Thinking of that I would say that the Void and the Music of the Ainur are on a class of their own with "extraordinariness".

Now some might think the Girdle of Melian could give them some competition. I mean it's not the nature of forests to lose you as such. If you get lost in a normal forest it is you who are stupid (or bad in orienteering), but the forest doesn't actively make you lose your direction. But... and the obvious counterargument to Melian's Girdle would be that also other forests in the ME seem to be both able and willing to do just that. So the Girdle of Melian maybe was extraordinary in being better in that than the Old Forest, The Fangorn, the Mirkwood, but it was only better at doing a thing others did too.

Like Lembas is better keeping hunger away than other foods which also keep hunger at bay - or Mithril that protects you more with lesser weight and brighter shine than other mail but still does the same thing... and you can see where the argument goes from here if we consider Thuringwethil, Isildur, Arwen, Gondolin or the Green Dragon... although with the latter five you could actually make an argument there were better examples than those named in their specific doings... Like Luthien giving nice competition to Arwen, Prancing Pony competing the Green Dragon, Armenelos competing Gondolin in grandeur or Menegroth in secrecy, Carcaroth competing with Thuringwethil, any great hero of old "out-heroing" Isildur...

Many of those points sure are open to argument. But that's exactly the point: the fact that you can argue whether Aragorn was a more distinguished or acclaimed hero than Isildur, or whether one should consider Beren as still more extraordinary, proves the point them being not extraordinary in quality but only in quantity.

How could one argue the relative extraordinariness of "being itself" or "not-being" in regards to something else, like a teapot, Minas Tirith or Helcaraxë? :)

No way. You don't compare "coming-in-to-being" or "existing" or "non-existence" or "void" with anything. Like Immanuel Kant said: existence is not a predicate you can attribute to something, but it is the condition via which some thing can have an attribute in the fiorst place: if something doesn't exist it can't be blue, white, mushy or lovable... existence comes first, then qualities an existant being can have. like heroism, being able to delay hunger, protecting you from blades or arrows, making you lost etc.

But you can possibly at some level compare existence and non-existence against each other as the primordial issues...

Most religions start with the obvious state of nothingness (like in Judaism, Christianity and Islam) often described as a void (fex. in Scandinavian and Babylonian mythologies). Then comes the extraordinary thing: creation!

And the thing is quite clear in our everyday speech as well: we talk of the "miracle of birth" and the "naturalness of death" ("nothing in this life can be trusted but taxes and death" :rolleyes:).

So: why is there something rather than nothing? That is the extraordinary thing!

[the phantom]

Good arguments, Nog, about whether things are comparable or not. Of course if one chose to interpret "extraordinary" in a different way it would undermine everything. If we say it means "beyond ordinary" then the object must have an ordinary reference point and then surpass. But if we say "uncommon" then perhaps that which has no comparable moves to the forefront.

And honestly I like the second version, and as you can see with those I ruled out that is what I've been going with. And with that in mind...

Mithril is now out, as it is essentially super-silver. As cool as it is, it doesn't quite stand alone as much as I want it to.

I disagree with Thuringwethil being compared to Carcharoth however, as he is a Werewolf and she a vampire. Ever since encountering Thuringwethil for the first time all those years ago, I craved to learn more about her. I wished for her to be featured more prominently in a story. What did she look like? Did she shape-shift? Could she create more like her? What were her other duties and powers? I see her standing rather alone in Tolkien's works.

And yes indeed- the Void and the Music belong. I can tell you that my instinct is to favor something over nothing, particularly with music involved. But I'll leave this just a bit longer to see if anyone else wishes to hop in with something.

[Galadriel55]

You do like Immanuel Kant, don't you Nog? :cool:

I just want to point out that things like "Void" and "Ainulindale" can also be quantitative (if i got your definition right), in the sense that there is lots of music but none as grand as Ainulindale, or spaces with little in them but the Void is the most empty of all of them. You can quantify such things not only by their innate qualities but by an event or role they play or etc. There is an infinite number of categories you can look at. You can also say that things existed for a long time, but the Void is the oldest still - which also gives it a quantitative "extraordinariness".




Personally, I'm not enthralled with the people/living beings, because there's too much to argue about regarding who is greater/stronger/taller/etc. So out go Arwen, Isildur, and Thuringwethil. Then, despite its importance to the story and unique quality, I'm not a big fan of Melian's Girdle. It just doesn't seem to do it. Neither does the Void or Gondolin. Just not the right ring, ya know. I think Lembas and Mithril can have a silly side to them as well as the radical reasoning of why they are extraordinary, so they would be pretty high on my list. Music of the Ainur is quite fitting by definition, and it resonates with me, so had I been the judge I would have considered it. And the Green Dragon is comically true, since, as Mr. Sandyman was quick to notice, "there is only one Dragon in Bywater, and that's Green".


So, for my money, mithril, lembas, Music of the Ainur, and Green Dragon are worth consideration.

[Nogrod]

You do like Immanuel Kant, don't you Nog?Well, he's not exactly my favourite philosopher but I do agree him being one of the sharpest minds there ever has been... and he has good points on certain areas - like the one in my sig and what I quoted there from his argument against the ontological proof of God's existence against St. Thomas Aquinas (as a North-European protestant he thought the thing with God was "belief" and not "knowledge" - that the point of religion was to believe in something that can't be known instead of trying to prove something that was beyond proof).

I just want to point out that things like "Void" and "Ainulindale" can also be quantitative (if i got your definition right), in the sense that there is lots of music but none as grand as Ainulindale, or spaces with little in them but the Void is the most empty of all of them. You can quantify such things not only by their innate qualities but by an event or role they play or etc. There is an infinite number of categories you can look at. You can also say that things existed for a long time, but the Void is the oldest still - which also gives it a quantitative "extraordinariness".
Haha. That's a nice one! But The Music of the Ainur still was the act of creation - of bringing being into existence instead of letting the Void, the non-being rule supreme. It is said it was brought by means of music - but surely you can't compare the Music of the Ainur to any music we can hear or play. From the Pythagoreans onwards (about 2600 years) the latest we have "known" that the "music of the spheres", as the echoes in the physical univedrse of that creating music were called those days, was not something any human being could hear or understand.To say it is music is rather a way of trying to paraphrase something to human understanding that is by it's nature understandable: hah, creating being from nothing... pretty hard to go and figure what it is or means. :)

And what comes to the arguments between The Void and The Music of the Ainur there is one pretty tough one: The Void can't be extraordinary as it is - by definition - nothing. Well, one can't even say it "IS" something, even nothing (not to say it is extraordinary). Is that an argument for the Void to be the really extraordinary thing then? Nope. It's just contradiction in terms: that which is not can not be anything: honest, insane, deadly, neglected, cuddly... or extreaordinary.

Only that which is, which exists, can be something - and the Music of the Ainur is the very thing that caused existence to exist, the most extraordinary thing that made it possible for fex. itself to be such an extraordinary thing. :D

And if we humans have gotten anything right in our myths and religions, then it must be that non-existence is the primordial norm which was overcome by divine creation - which is the wonder, the miracle, the extraordinary thing.

Of course if one chose to interpret "extraordinary" in a different way it would undermine everything. If we say it means "beyond ordinary" then the object must have an ordinary reference point and then surpass. But if we say "uncommon" then perhaps that which has no comparable moves to the forefront.I agree with what you say but still think the division between the two is both reasonable and defendable in this case... Like I said - when you have two things (or more) you compare between each other (with shared reference points) you mostly end up in arguments where one side is more or less as right as another. And basically yes, this whole game is partly about just that: how you compare things trying to find a reference between some of the choices... and which reference points you think are noteworthy in any individual case. But on this round we have two pretty extraordinary things in play, namely nothnigness and the coming forth of being from nothingness. And those two just surpass any other comparison as they are the basis from which any comparisons can be made in the first case... :cool:

[Nogrod]

I disagree with Thuringwethil being compared to Carcharoth however, as he is a Werewolf and she a vampire.
It doesn't actually matter whether you like or dislike the comparison. The point is that a comparison can be made: which was the most extraordinary servant of evil? Or should we bring Ungoliant to the game, or Gothmog... Or if we want to go to a more specific choice: which one was the more extraordinary servant of Sauron: Draugluin, Thuringwethil ot the Witch King? I mean it is possible to find a common ground for these comparisons even if some are easier or more natural than others.

But you just can't compare existence (or the lack of it) to any existant (or non-existant) thing because existence (or non-existence) are the conditions by which you can make a comparison in the first place... :smokin:

And thus, especially while speaking of extraordinariness, the two fight in the class of their own.

[Galadriel55]

Who would have thought that a Taters to Taters game would turn into a philosophical discussion about coming into being? :D


And now I will nitpick Nog's post, not because it's faulty reasoning (it's solid and everything) but because I just disagree with it. :P


Haha. That's a nice one! But The Music of the Ainur still was the act of creation - of bringing being into existence instead of letting the Void, the non-being rule supreme. It is said it was brought by means of music - but surely you can't compare the Music of the Ainur to any music we can hear or play. From the Pythagoreans onwards (about 2600 years) the latest we have "known" that the "music of the spheres", as the echoes in the physical univedrse of that creating music were called those days, was not something any human being could hear or understand.To say it is music is rather a way of trying to paraphrase something to human understanding that is by it's nature understandable: hah, creating being from nothing... pretty hard to go and figure what it is or means.

Fair enough. Let's scratch the "music" category from the list of possible ones. How about the greatest creation that ever was? Or, if I go to the more general categories, the greatest event? The most important event?

My point is that even something that seems like it's one-of-a-kind can be classified as some sort of category that has other examples. To take a more eathly example - Thuringwethil. She's the only giant vampire bat mentioned in the legendarium, unless I have a hole in my skull and memory is leaking out. So she is unique in that sense. But she's also a part of the animal category, the evil creature category, the unknown origin being category, etc. So there's always a was to quantify it if you're willing to widen the category enough. On the opposite side, you can make something unique by narrowing the catagory down. Arwen could be considered one of many because there are many beautiful Elves, and we know she's competing with Luthien and Galadriel in the beauty contest. But she can also be unique if we narrow it down from "beautiful Elf maidens" to "daughters of Elrond", for example.

Something much less fesh-and-bone, like the Music of Ainur, is a more... "picky" matter, but as long as you're willing to place it into certain categories it's still quantifiable and comparable.

And what comes to the arguments between The Void and The Music of the Ainur there is one pretty tough one: The Void can't be extraordinary as it is - by definition - nothing. Well, one can't even say it "IS" something, even nothing (not to say it is extraordinary). Is that an argument for the Void to be the really extraordinary thing then? Nope. It's just contradiction in terms: that which is not can not be anything: honest, insane, deadly, neglected, cuddly... or extreaordinary.

Well, I want to agrue here because I like arguing. Firstly, the Void can still be more "understandable" of a concept because it indeed IS something - it's the opposite of something (haha, very funny, go ahead roll your eyes :)). But really, if Ea is something and you know there's NOTHING on the outside (a NOTHING that's called the Void), then that NOTHING can be defined as the emptiness that's not Ea, that surrounds Ea, that is outside of Ea, etc.

Secondly, even without considering the argument that it is something, the Void is still somewhere. It's where Eru lives. It's where Morgoth lives. It's where you come to if you go through the Doors of Night. So it's a place, even if not quite a natural one.

Last, but not least, the Void of Tolkien's work might not be as empty as it seems, since there are Ainu dwelling there. Also, it's not what we might imagine as being a Void, since in The Sil Morgoth is said to have gone far in search for the Flame Imperishable. So there's a concept of distance, and of going far, and therefore the opposite - close, so it's not a mind-boggling concept we can't even fathom. I've been wondering for a time how can a Void be so unvoid of things, but all the answer I got was the same as to the question who is Tom Bombadil - it just is that way.



I suppose it all depends on how you view the world / what you believe it is. If my view has a different brick at the very foundation compared to your view, the whole structures cannot be the same, even though both could be right...or both could be wrong. Who knows?

I won't go farther into this, but I must say, I think this debate is my favourite part of the game so far, as weird as it sounds.



Quick! Post something silly before this thread gets moved to Books!!! :-D


Edit: xed with Nog. I see we agree about the earthly beings, but we still stand on different ground about existence. Well, how about the mostextraordinary event? Or most extraordinary concept? :Merisu:

[the phantom]

Time is ticking, so perhaps I'll narrow it to two.

When someone is through, they are cast into the void. But where is the void cast? *chuckle*

As I said, the somethings have got my fancy, so it is between-

Music of the Ainur
Thuringwethil

I don't know if these selections were done in the spirit of "oh well" or not, but I'd like to think they were carefully chosen by people that know me decently well in this respect. As someone that has performed music on a weekly basis since I was a child (and I listen to music far more often than that), the Music of the Ainur is especially alluring. But so is Thuringwethil, who is definitely one of my Tolkien favorites (perhaps moreso since so little is known of her).

I'm already leaning one direction, but if multiple people put forth passionate pleas it's possible I'll change my tune.

Yes. That was a pun.

[Boromir88]

My apologies, I was in the process of moving to new place today and didn't have internet connected yet.

Business as usual tomorrow. So tp, have the winner chosen by Noon.

And anyone who hasn't sent in round 7 do so as well.

[Meneltarmacil]

Of those two, I would definitely choose the Music of the Ainur.

[Galadriel55]

Of those two, I would definitely choose the Music of the Ainur.

Ditto.

[Nogrod]

Quite unexpectedly, I agree with both Menel and Galadriel. :)

I mean I like Thuringwethil, no question about that. She is quite cool - even if I'm not otherwise that much into this vampire-mania of the recent years. And yes you could argue that she is at least one of a kind as there seems to be no other vampires in Arda (like there were other werewolves, balrogs, great spiders etc.). But I'd still go for the stupendous extraordinariness of the Music of the Ainur just because it is such... well, an extraordinary thing. :cool:


Who would have thought that a Taters to Taters game would turn into a philosophical discussion about coming into being?
Haha! Anything can turn into that with ready and willing participants...
I think this debate is my favourite part of the game so far, as weird as it sounds.To me it doesn't sound weird at all. But I agree it is fun. Fun big time.

PS. G55: I did enjoy your counter-arguments and will possibly come back to them if I have time. But just now my hands are quite full...

[the phantom]

Well, since people seem to be coming down on the side of the pick I've wanted to go with from the start, I may as well end the waiting...

++Music of the Ainur

It's always been a goal of mine that, before I die, I write and record my version of the Music of the Ainur. I've been oh so slowly thinking up themes for a decade or so and plan to continue doing so for many more, as I see it as something not to be churned out but worthy of a careful approach. Personally I think that every music-loving Tolkienphile has some version of it in his or her head and ought to produce it at some point in life.

[Nogrod]

It's always been a goal of mine that, before I die, I write and record my version of the Music of the Ainur.
I knew you weren't the most modest person around but... :)

On the other hand it might be a nice topic for a thread to come up with different ideas what the Music of the Ainur could or should have sounded like - with actual pieces of music they had in the best of cases made themselves in a way or another.

[the phantom]

Following one another our sigs are just too much. :D

[Nogrod]

Following one another our sigs are just too much. :DEspecially having three... erm... five of them in a row... :D

[Galadriel55]

Following one another our sigs are just too much.

Oh you two! :D

Haha! Anything can turn into that with ready and willing participants...

Usually it's the opposite way, though - something serious turns silly.

PS. G55: I did enjoy your counter-arguments and will possibly come back to them if I have time.

No need, unless you really want to. :) Our debate was time well wasted. :D

[Boromir88]

And Nogrod gets on the board

Tally

the phantom - 2 (Honest, Insane)
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)
Gwath - 1 (Neglected)
Menel - 1 (Cuddly)
Nogrod - 1 (Extraordinary)

----

ROUND 7

Lottie, the violent red taters are:

Ungoliant
Menegroth
Tulkas
Battle of Pelennor Fields
Battle of Bywater
Eol
Ar-Pharazon
Beorn
Tar-Minastir
Gorgoroth

ROUND 8

Green tater: Peaceful (serene, restful, calm)
Judge: Menel

[Galadriel55]

What a coincidence to have these two green taters right after each other! :D

[Boromir88]

One thing I wanted to mention, but didn't because again did not want to influence the decision...but...

"extraordinary" always confuses me, especially when I separate the pronunciation to "extra" "ordinary"...because I just think this isn't a word that means special or distinguished. Shouldn't it just mean something is ordinary, only more so?

Therefore, probably would have gone with the Green Dragon, since nothing can be more ordinary than a good inn :)

[Boromir88]

What a coincidence to have these two green taters right after each other! :D

They may not have been drawn back-to-back, but still would have been close together.

I drew the first 20 but tossed some that didn't make any sense to have like "chewy" and some of the doubled ones like "conceited" and "arrogant."

[the phantom]

I drew the first 20 but tossed some that didn't make any sense to have like "chewy"
You tossed "chewy"? :(

I think something so absurd would be bound to be fun. :p (Or actually Lembas could've been played with complete seriousness.)

[Boromir88]

You tossed "chewy"? :(

I think something so absurd would be bound to be fun. :p (Or actually Lembas could've been played with complete seriousness.)

I could always add it back on if there is a round 21, or insert add it randomly in before, ya know. ;)

[the phantom]

Now, on to violent...

To be perfectly honest I did not play my best card for this one. I judged it would very likely be the most appropriate card on the list from a true and objective point of view (and looking at the list I'd say I was right), however I wasn't certain that Lottie would judge so straightforward and also figured no one would play a bad card this round, thus stiff competition. So I saved that card.

Now, onto the cards that were played. I'd say Lottie has a difficult choice. For what it's worth here are my musings...

VIOLENT, BUT NOT THE FIRST IMAGE THAT POPS TO MIND

MENEGROTH- Violence did happen at Menegroth a couple times, but that isn't its natural state, nor is that the image that leaps to mind. Rather, one thinks of the beautiful halls and the majesty of Elwe and Melian.

BATTLE OF BYWATER- It'd be silly of me to say a battle isn't violent, but after the grand scale of the war against Sauron this little skirmish pales, not to mention the constant restraint of violence preached by Frodo before, during, and after the battle. Plus- Hobbits. It just doesn't resonate.

BEORN- Certainly the thought of him crashing through the Goblin lines to slay Bolg spells violence, but I would feel unfair labeling him as such, as he's capable of great kindness as well. If the tater was "amusingly rude" then I'd be more on board.

TAR-MINASTIR- The only real connection to violence is that one time he sent soldiers to protect the Elves from Sauron, and he didn't even go in person.

GORGOROTH- Barren, extreme, depressing, etc. are the words that pop to mind first. In the war at the end of the second age violence was certainly done upon Gorgoroth, but for hundreds of years before and after it was either empty or owned by Sauron rather than being a land in contention.

CONTENDERS

UNGOLIANT- Perhaps gnawing and hungry are more perfect, but her desire to consume things certainly led to violence against everyone she encountered, and frankly her devouring ways are violent in themselves (biting/ripping/crushing). She has to be considered.

TULKAS- An interesting selection as the representation of positive force, or violence for the sake of good- a reminder that violence need not have only negative associations.

BATTLE OF PELENNOR FIELDS- It was a massive battle and a great deal of destruction and death took place. It's not what leaves the lasting impression (rather the glorious Rohirrim rescue and the joy at the unveiling of the fleet's flags etc. leave an overall positive feeling), but the sheer number of casualties cannot be discounted.

EOL- His hostility towards the Noldor, his semi-abduction of a Noldorin princess (obviously his lust overcame his Noldor-hate), and finally the attempted murder of his son and resulting murder of his wife right in the throne-room of Gondolin and subsequent execution via being tossed off a cliff... This card was well selected.

AR-PHARAZON- A similarly good selection here, with his hostility towards Elves/Valar/the Faithful, his forced marriage to the rightful queen, his military building and conquering of Sauron, and his eventual attempt to seize Valinor from Manwe and company resulting in a violent reshaping of the seas... Violent definitely fits him.

[Gwathagor]

I believe both Barad-dur and Mt. Doom were located on Gorgoroth. If the plateau wasn't violent itself, it certainly contained great violence, being both an unstable, volcanically active area and the lair of a demonic supervillain who is arguably responsible for most of the violence that occurred in Middle-earth.

I would also argue that Beorn is considerably more violent than Eol on pretty much all levels. Higher kill count. Uses claws and fangs, rather than poison darts. Impales victims remains on front gate. Is essentially part wild animal. And I can't imagine that transformation being particularly peaceful either...

[Loslote]

In RL, my judging style involves a lot of taking cards and flinging them over my shoulders saying "no" in a bored tone. Ergo:

Ungoliant: Mmmmmmno.
Menegroth: No.
Tulkas: I'm getting a delightful image of a smiling giant skipping through a field of daisies, bashing in Orc-heads with a warhammer while humming the Little Bunny Foo Foo song. Tulkas stays for now.
Battle of Pelennor Fields: Mmmmmmm...maybe.
Battle of Bywater: For now, it stays, but more for the amusing factor of war-hobbits than any real violence-related reasons.
Eol: OH yes he stays.
Ar-Pharazon: I've always seen him as a bit of a puppet-figure. No.
Beorn: Not cuddly enough to make 'violent' amusing, not evil enough to make 'violent' horrifically appropriate. He bores me. No.
Tar-Minastir: Yeah no.
Gorgoroth: No.

The contenders thus far: Tulkas, the Battle of Pelennor Fields, the Battle of Bywater, and Eol.

Higher kill count.

Awwww, come on, that's a boring way to go about it! Eol's violence was so much more...gloriously unpredictable. You knew he was gonna do something, but what he ended up doing was always unexpected anyway. ^.^

[the phantom]

I believe both Barad-dur and Mt. Doom were located on Gorgoroth. If the plateau wasn't violent itself, it certainly contained great violence, being both an unstable, volcanically active area and the lair of a demonic supervillain who is arguably responsible for most of the violence that occurred in Middle-earth.
I like the geological justification for Gorgoroth, but as far as tying it directly to the elsewhere-occuring deeds of Sauron due to proximity to his fortress... That would be like choosing the Misty Mts for "Quick" due to the fact that the speedy Great Eagles happened to make nests in a couple spots in the midst of the range.

I don't like the idea of having too many tie-ins. To choose Gorgoroth it itself must be defined as violent rather than equating ->
Gorgoroth = Barad-Dur = Sauron = His armies = Violence
I would also argue that Beorn is considerably more violent than Eol on pretty much all levels. Higher kill count. Uses claws and fangs, rather than poison darts. Impales victims remains on front gate. Is essentially part wild animal. And I can't imagine that transformation being particularly peaceful either...
If we're going by kill count then why the heck support Beorn? Pelennor Fields dwarfs his kill count, and frankly everyone's kill count put together.

Plus, violence includes an aspect of attitude and potential. If a repeat murderer is locked in a cell and thus can no longer kill people, is he no longer violent? (Since he's not actively engaging in violence.) Obviously, the answer is no. Attitude and potential counts.

Thus with your example of comparing Beorn to Eol, while Eol did not spend a great deal of time killing things, there was a constant underlying threat of force in the captivity of his wife and son, not to mention his use of violence was, as Lottie said, so interestingly inappropriate and unpredictable. Similarly, Beorn may have had a higher "kill count" than Ungoliant, but surely given the opportunity she had the attitude to rack up higher numbers.

And as far as "claws and fangs" go, method of expression is unimportant. I mean honestly, is a kitten that plays pouncing games more violent than Gothmog due to the kitten using claws and teeth and Gothmog utilizing weapons? Preposterous! Violence is force, and that can come across in varied ways, and the tip of an arrow is an equally effective transfer of force compared to claws. The word isn't "wild" or "animal".

Beorn is just too funny and likable at other moments, I think.

[Nogrod]

Violent (furious, vicious, destructive)

Battles are violent by definition, so a battle offered here as an example of violence should have more to offer than the Battle of Bywater - unless you took the sarcastic mode. But also more than the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Like everything else also battles waned as the ages piled up and the main battle of the third age is more or less but child's play compared to those of the second or first age: think of the Valar and Maiar clashing in the first wars - or all the great Noldorin heroes clashing with Balrogs and other Maiar creatures - and the numbers of elves, men, dwarves, orcs, creatures of any kind going down in those battles. Compared with those the Battle of the Pelennor Fields is child's row at the sandbox.

I would discard the battles then.

I would also discard Menegroth and the plains of Gorgoroth as they were just places and places are not violent but creatures doing things in those places.

What tp said about Tar Atanamir is to the point. But with Ar Pharazôn I'd have to disagree with him and remind you that he wasn't that violent as a person. You could say he was lots of bad stuff, also vicious and destructive, but one should fill the main adjective (violent) first and then get support from the other ones - if the judge is willing to consider them. So I'd discard the Númenorians as well.

That would leave me four choices to whom violence would fit.

Ungoliant
Tulkas
Eol
Beorn

So how about the other / supporting / explanatory / widening adjectives?

Eöl could be said to be vicious in a way and maybe furious, and destructive... well, maybe. But it is clear he has those qualities on a lesser level compared to the other candidates.

Tulkas and Beorn are furious and destructive but not so much vicious. But what they lack in viciousness they gain monumentally by their erraticness or unpredictableness. Both seemed to have this berserk-rage when they didn't quite control themselves - remember Gandalf telling Bilbo & the dwarves not to go out when Beorn was there in a Bear-form but on their peril.

Ungoliant, not surprisingly, seems to fit all the adjectives. Her fury was such that she even challenged Melkor himself, her destructiviness such that she drained all the light from the world - and vicious enough to spawn a whole race of spiders in her bitter hatred against not only the goodies but baddies as well...

Although if one just stresses "violence" I'd pick Tulkas or Beorn. But Ungoliant looks like the perfect pick otherwise.

[Gwathagor]

A predatory animal like a bear is, by its nature, thoroughly and essentially violent. Its entire existence revolves and depends on killing other creatures. It begins and ends in blood, and this was, at some level, a part of Beorn's identity.

Eol, on the other hand, only ended his life with violence. He was a resentful, manipulative being gone wrong, not a suppressed serial killer.

[Nogrod]

It looks like I and tp have some differences of view regarding Eöl and Beorn. :)

Let me put it this way then.

Eöl was so violent he tried to kill one person - a child with a poisoned spear (what was it about going for someone of your size?) but ended up killing his wife being not able to even do that. Meanwhile Beorn more or less single-handedly won the battle of the Five Armies... skinning wargs and hanging orc-heads on pikes for his passtime when there was not a major battle around.

So talking about violence then? ;)


That said, I do refer to my earlier post and say I like Tulkas as a candidate - and Ungoliant sure looks like the perfect one (all adjectives considered).

EDIT: X'd (and agreed) with Gwath...

[Gwathagor]

Yeah, if it was me judging, I would definitely pick Ungoliant.

[Nogrod]

If I was judging I would have this head-ache -producing three-way tie between Ungoliant, Tulkas and Beorn.

Ungoliant fits all the four adjectives while Tulkas and Beorn "fail" with viciousness. But then again what we're after is something that is essentially "violent". So one thing you should ask yourself before choosing is whether that one you consider picking is "essentially violent", that it's essence is in its violence?

Looked at from that POV it becomes harder to make a choice. Ungoliant is the "light-eater", the gluttonous package of later fury and hatred. No one can say she is not violent, but violence is probably not her deepest describing quality.

With Tulkas you have this Thor-like Godness, the "Hammer of Justice" at the essence that might or might not weigh more than his way of reaching those ends with violence and open confrontation.

With Beorn you have this doppelgänger-role, this Janus-face where the other side is a vegetarian Mr. Nice and the other is the Berserker-Bear whose wrath breaks down whole armies (or skins the poor Wargs).


So to me it would be a tough call.

[Galadriel55]

Ungoliant - I would say she's evil, but not violent. She wants to devour everything, but that just in itself does not qualify for me as violent.

Menegroth - I just don't get it.

Tulkas - I like this choice, since, as was said before, he is an example of positive violence. The Sil says that he is not violent unless provoked by something, and when he is - pray to god you're faster than him!

Battle of Pelennor Fields - I get the reasoning behind choosing what looks like the bloodiest battle of the Third Age, but at the same time it just lacks something.

Ar-Pharazon and Tar-Minastir - saying that they are not violent is like saying it's not Hitler's fault. If you're not holding the sword/gun yourself doesn't mean you have no part in it. Saying that, I'm not sure if Minastir can be called violent at all, since sending troops to help out Gil-Galad seems common sense rather than violence to me.

Battle of Bywater - I guess it could go in history as one of the least violent battles ever, which makes the choice funny. But don't forget that it is probably the most violent thing that ever happened according to your avrage hobbit.

Eol - I'd say he fits better under "insane" than "violent".

Beorn - like Tulkas, he has his fits of violece. He can be an old grandpa figure one moment, and a raging bear another.

Gorgoroth - another one that I just don't get.




I would not judge violence by the scale of it or by death count. For example, Ungoliant destroyed the two trees, but how? By sucking juice? It's an evil deed, but not exactly a violent one. Tulkas, on the other hand, doesn't really kill anyone/anything, but he does get quite violent when he's angry.

[Loslote]

I still don't like Ungoliant as a choice. I struggle to call a spider violent. Terrifying, perhaps, evil, perhaps, but not truly violent.

The Battles are what they are, and, as battles, are at essense violent - but I'm just not feeling it. Battles are out - Tulkas and Eol remain as choices.

[the phantom]

Indeed, Tulkas and Eol would've been my pet selections (along with Ar Pharazon) had I been choosing. Eliminating any of them would've been tough, but yes, probably Ar Phar gets the boot first, and then from the remaining two it would've been up to my mood whether I felt like picking the dark character or the good guy.

I feel fortunate I elected not to send my first choice tater, as seeing what has happened I definitely believe it would've fallen by the way alongside the Battle of the Pelennor Fields- which would've been a waste as it is a rather good tater. There ought to be a good opportunity to play it later....

That rhymed.

[Loslote]

And the winner (because I should be online before noon, but I won't take the chance) is...Eol!

Eol, to me, demonstrates a more violent nature in his unpredictability. Tulkas' nature is not violent, though his actions sometimes are - he's more the sort to sing a Happy Fighting Song while swiming his Happy Fighting Hammer and then go back home and be still essentially calm at nature. Ergo, Eol wins!

[Nogrod]

the phantom scored third, right?

[satansaloser2005]

Prince Boromir the 88th regrets to inform you that his internet has become infested with pixies, and that he is currently unavailable. He wishes to extend his congratulations to the phantom for yet another victory (:rolleyes:), and assures me that he will return at his earliest convenience, at which time shenanigans will resume.

[Nogrod]

He wishes to extend his congratulations to the phantom for yet another victoryDidn't I say that! :smokin:

I have nothing against the phantom winning a game, but hey, this game ends with the next tp victory... :(

So it is pretty simple: if you want to play the game, don't go with the phantom any more. Thus far it has not been too hard to read (well of course he will change from openly supporting any of his candidates from now on...). If you want this to end though, then do vote his candidate - and make all of us others who'd wish to continue with the game mad... :rolleyes:


Btw. if we're going to take another round of this, I'd suggest we don't make a "winning condition" but will play for any predeterminend number of rounds (twenty - thirty?) whatever way the taters go. When playing this live I'm actually not interested in who got how many taters and if possible would prefer them not to be counted in the end, but well, here that is kind of impossible - as knowing any round's winner is an important part of the game - whereas in a long RL game you forget who has won and how much so you could actually end the game without knowing who "won" overall - which would be just fine.

A game that ends prematurely is always a disappointment.

Kudos to the phantom though, nicely played.

[Boromir88]

Will post new information up shortly.

I was not anticipating having so many connection issues at my new place. So, pretty much 4pm EST (8pm GMT) is one of the times I can guarantee to have internet. DL will be then.

[Boromir88]

Tally

the phantom - 3 (Honest, Insane, Violent) -I don't think any of these contradict :eek:
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)
Gwath - 1 (Neglected)
Menel - 1 (Cuddly)
Nogrod - 1 (Extraordinary)

-----

ROUND 8

Menel you're to pick the winner of "peaceful" :cool:

Pippin
Thingol
The Sea
Dorwinion
Mawe
Lothlorien
Bombur
Miruvor
Asfaloth
Minas Tirith

----

ROUND 9

Green Tater: Charming (pleasant, polite)
Judge: Kitanna

----

Apologies again, I think for future games at this, a co-mod would be fantastic to have. But to avoid more snags...4pm EST I can be assured of having a reliable connection so have Round 9 PMed to me by then (8pm GMT)

Sending out new red taters now.

[Galadriel55]

Mawe? Is that meant to be Manwe?

[the phantom]

Thank you, Lottie. Well chosen!

And what- the game ends if I win again? Surely we'll play more, yes?
Mawe? Is that meant to be Manwe?
Unless he says otherwise, I'm assuming.

So, on to peaceful...

Wow. These are all awful.

PIPPIN- This little guy spilled the guts of orcs, trolls, and men, and when killing men in the Shire specifically Frodo had to be the voice of restraint to stop Pip and the other Hobbits from just killing everyone.
THINGOL- Overly prideful chap- basically demanded the death of Beren for daring to love his daughter, and certainly killed his share of orcs and such in his day, aside from being in a perpetual state of war.
THE SEA- Aside from storms killing people and the wave the drowned all of Numenor...
DORWINION- Um, there were grapes there, and, um... that's all I know.
MANWE- Went to battle against Melkor, which was hardly peaceful, and then proceeded to sit around idly for the rest of the ages rather than bringing peace to Middle-Earth.
LOTHLORIEN- Peaceful, except all their march-wardens patrolling about to kill intruders, be they Orcs or Men or whatever, and occasionally fighting with Dol Guldur.
BOMBUR- Involved with quite a bit of non-peaceful activities- fighting, running from things, battling, etc. as evidenced by his desire to stay enchanted when he finally found peaceful magic sleep in Mirkwood.
MIRUVOR- Specifically designed to help people make it through extremely non-peaceful ordeals.
ASFALOTH- He took Glorfindel from place to place for the purpose of fighting, chasing, and fleeing in terror.
MINAS TIRITH- Peaceful except when looking east and seeing Mordor which could (and did) attack at any moment, including the biggest battle of the age.

So yeah. I think we need a do-over. I couldn't pick any of these.

[Gwathagor]

STRAIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE
Pippin - He was a warrior, sure, but all hobbits are ultimately peaceful creatures.
Lothlorien - Like being at home and on holiday at the same time.
Bombur - As sedentary as they come.

CURVE BALLS
Dorwinion - Don't know about Dorwinion itself, but Dorwinion wine certainly makes sleepy drunks. I like it.
Asfaloth - Probably the smoothest ride in Middle-earth aside from Shadowfax.
Thingol - Had his share of conflicts, but also spent two decades in a trance.

MISS
The Sea - This is the body of water that swallowed Numenor whole.
Manwe - Peace-loving, yes, but involved in too many earth-shaking conflicts to be considered peaceful.
Minas Tirith - A perennial war zone.
Miruvor - ...

[Galadriel55]

Pippin - him? Peaceful? Nah. You must be confusing him with someone else. The most boysterous hobbit of all ages.

Thingol - hmm, I suppose he can't be called overly aggressive, but at the same time can't say he's overly peaceful either.

The Sea - well, honestly speaking, with the help of Osse the Sea is quite unruly at times, yet I would put a ++ with this choice just because this resonates so much. Also you could say that while the Sea can awaken Sea-longing, travelling West over the Sea cures it, giving one's mind peace.

Dorwinion - it has a big wine industry. Like that helps.

Manwe - see Thingol.

Lothlorien - definitely a peaceful haven for Frodo and company, but look at it from the Elves' POV - they are so harrassed by enemies they can't even allow Gimli to go through without a blindfold!

Bombur - definitely peaceful when asleep.

Miruvor - peaceful miruvor. Peeeeaceful miruvor. Peaceful miruvooooor. Nah.

Asfaloth - I'd say Fatty Lumpkin would have been a better choice.

Minas Tirith - a peaceful Minas Tirith: *sigh* the dream of every Gondorian! (and a dream come true too!)

[Nerwen]

This thread. It is much too peaceful. Not one player has died horribly on this thread yet. :mad:

*is in WW withdrawal*

[Meneltarmacil]

I'll have to go with ++Bombur on this. Poor guy kept getting dragged into terrible things through no fault of his own, and he's easily the least violent of the choices presented.
There were two runners-up: Dorwinion, whatever its wine may have been like, was likely an Easterling realm or bordering on one, and those were hardly peaceful during the days of Sauron. Miruvor is basically neutral; it's peacefulness depends on the occasion.

[Boromir88]

This thread. It is much too peaceful. Not one player has died horribly on this thread yet. :mad:

*is in WW withdrawal*

Ah-ha, I think Kath plans on starting her WW game soon :)

And Nogrod now has 2 with his choice of Bombur. May continue discussion of this round and previous rounds until 4 (roughly 3 hours and 30 mins)

[the phantom]

Yeah- Bombur was probably my number 2 or 3, so no complaints. I probably would've selected Miruvor- associations with Elrond and Rivendell, ya know...

[Nogrod]

Haha. Thanks Menel for a wise choice... :)

I was actually quite unsure I had made a good pick, but my other taters weren't allowing me too much leeway on "peaceful". Now that I saw all the choices I actually think it was pretty good indeed. I mean yes, he was mainly sleeping all the time whether he should have walked, fought or guard places! Which were the other adjectives? Serene, restful, calm... restful... :rolleyes:

Now this is the flavour of the game: sometimens you think you have the "killer-choice" and no one even notices it because there are so many better ones to pick from - and on other times you think you made a mediocre pick at best and it turns out the best on the board...


On another issue. And what- the game ends if I win again? Surely we'll play more, yes?If no one disagrees I'd suggest we keep on playing the twenty rounds (?) Boro has prepared whether phantom (or someone else) gains the four wins the initial rules required to end the game or not.

[Boromir88]

Tally

the phantom - 3 (Honest, Insane, Violent)
Nogrod - 2 (Extraordinary, Peaceful)
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)
Gwath - 1 (Neglected)
Menel - 1 (Cuddly)
Nogrod - 1 (Extraordinary)

-----

ROUND 9

Kitanna, your charming charmers:

Nienor
Saruman
Ghan-Buri-Ghan
Faramir
Spiders of Mirkwood
Galadriel
Bard
Melian
Old Man Willow
Huor

----

ROUND 10

Green tater: Ridiculous (absurd, ludicrous, preposterous)
Judge: Gwath

[Boromir88]

On another issue. If no one disagrees I'd suggest we keep on playing the twenty rounds (?) Boro has prepared whether phantom (or someone else) gains the four wins the initial rules required to end the game or not.

I would not have a problem with that at all. :D

[Galadriel55]

Nienor
Saruman
Ghan-Buri-Ghan
Faramir
Spiders of Mirkwood
Galadriel
Bard
Melian
Old Man Willow
Huor


I'd say Spiders are just too funny to pass by, and Saruman and Old Man Willow are perhaps charming in another sense (and woe to those who they choose to charm!). That's my $0.02 on the matter.

[Nogrod]

Just a short one before going to sleep...

I'd say Spiders are just too funny to pass by, and Saruman and Old Man Willow are perhaps charming in another sense (and woe to those who they choose to charm!). My intitial reaction exactly. Thinking of the Spiders of Mirkwood described with the word "charming" just made me smile widely - and Saruman and Old Man Willow sure have their "charms" in a most fitting way...

On top of that I thought "then well, what?"

But looking at them now again I must say that this looks like a really hard round to judge as most of the choices actually make good claims for being considered as "charming".

I mean aren't Faramir and Bard the Bowman just the "prince charmings"? Or didn't Melian's power reside in her charms - or Galadriel's to that matter?

Not to talk of Nienor being "charmless"... which would sound like an insult.

[the phantom]

All right, let's group 'em and whittle these down.

Charming.

THE LADIES
Nienor
Galadriel
Melian

All could stake a claim to it- lovely people inside and out. But I'd say Melian clearly emerges, with her goddess-like state of being. Clearly trumps Galadriel anyway since she's sort of a Melian-lite.

THE GUYS
Ghan-Buri-Ghan
Faramir
Bard
Huor

Of the Prince Charming candidates I think Faramir works best from a realistic perspective due to how well we know him, but he's in the shadow of Aragorn in his own time and the Gondolin-dwelling Huor probably surpassed him as well though we don't have as clear a vision of him. There isn't a clear Melian here. So honestly I'd pick Ghan-Buru-Ghan and Bard- GBG has a unique quality and humor to him given his culture and manner of speaking etc., and Bard is so connected to being grim and a downer that charming has some humor to it.

THE OTHERS
Spiders of Mirkwood
Old Man Willow
Saruman

It's tough to eliminate any of these, honestly. With Saruman- it's just so darn true. If we're going by real standards he'd have to be picked I think. Old Man Willow is similarly charming (lure then strike), and just calling a tree "charming" is funny. And the Spiders of course are potentially the least charming of all, thus they work from a contradictory stand-point. Ugh... I suppose we'll toss the Spiders (since we can't debate them very well) with the understanding that Kit is justified in picking them out of nowhere due to humor.

So, the FINALISTS...

Melian
Ghan-Buri-Ghan
Bard
Saruman
Old Man Willow

[Galadriel55]

...Bard is so connected to being grim and a downer that charming has some humor to it.

(emphasis mine)

Now why did that make me go "wait...what?" :rolleyes:-->at self

[Kitanna]

Short on time at the moment, so here I go...



Kitanna, your charming charmers:

Nienor
Saruman
Ghan-Buri-Ghan
Faramir
Spiders of Mirkwood
Galadriel
Bard
Melian
Old Man Willow
Huor


In the running:
Saruman- He could pretty much charm the pants off of anyone. Even in defeat he still managed to sway the men of Rohan before Gandalf opened his own mouth.

Ghan-Buri-Ghan - Because it made me laugh. I'd call him rustic, but that can have its own charm.

Faramir - When comparing him to his family he certainly has a certain way about him. He manages to put complete strangers at ease.

Galadriel - It's hard for a fair elf queen such as her not to be charming. And she was hospitable to the Fellowship when she didn't have to be.

Old Man Willow - So charming he puts everyone to sleep. Three Hobbits succumbed to his charms after all.

[Lhunardawen]

I guess it bears mentioning that the green tater "defined" charming here as "pleasant, polite" - or does that not need to be followed necessarily? Because in that case, Saruman was hardly pleasant or polite, at least in the latter part of his life.

[Nogrod]

I guess it bears mentioning that the green tater "defined" charming here as "pleasant, polite" - or does that not need to be followed necessarily?I think there is room for personal decision here.

I myself have always thought that you try to get the main definition right first - and if and when there are some competing choices then I'd bring on the other definitions to bear as well. But I shouldn't pick one which is spot on or hilarious with the second or third but doesn't fit the prime-definition at all.

But I also have the feeling some people just ignore the second and third definitions - which is perfectly okay if they want to do it. There is no rule, I think, that would require you to pay heed to the other definitions - even if I myself consider them as well when making decisions as the judge (or I see making suggestions in this kind of a game :rolleyes:).

[Gwathagor]

Ghan-Buri-Ghan is all formality and manners when the Riders meet him, but I think the obvious choice here is Saruman.

[Nogrod]

Ghan-Buri-Ghan is all formality and manners when the Riders meet him, but I think the obvious choice here is Saruman.I don't think there is an obvious one this time around...

Saruman and the Old Man Willow are both I think spot on - and with a nice twist even, while you could say that at least Faramir (possibly Bard as he is introduced against Mr. Moneybags) - and both Melian and Galadriel have a decent claim here.

Not to talk of Nienor, of whom I'd still say calling her uncharming would be a disgrace.

And the Spiders of Mirkwood would be just... well, fun.


So not obvious but actually pretty hard to choose from. Well at least if I had to choose.

[Galadriel55]

So not obvious but actually pretty hard to choose from. Well at least if I had to choose.

Ditto. :)

[Kitanna]

So not obvious but actually pretty hard to choose from. Well at least if I had to choose.
This has been no picnic narrowing these down.

If I had to chose with no thought I'd have to say Saruman, but when I think about it Old Man Willow and Ghan-Buri-Ghan are better choices.

Ghan-Buri-Ghan

To see him on the list made me smile, but he really was charming in how he dealt with Theoden. He deserves more credit than he's given.

[Boromir88]

Gwath picks up his 2nd.

Sending all new red taters now and then we'll go to the next Round. Gwath judging "ridiculous"

[Boromir88]

Tally

the phantom - 3 (Honest, Insane, Violent)
Nogrod - 2 (Extraordinary, Peaceful)
Gwath - 2 (Neglected, Charming)
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)
Menel - 1 (Cuddly)

-----

ROUND 10

Gwath, for "ridiculous" this could also be a challenging one to judge:

Mablung (the Hunter)
Entmoot
Ban of the Valar
Grima Wormtongue
Farmer Maggot
Oath of Feanor
Uruk-hai
Saeros
Hurin

**There were 2 problems that I couldn't get to until now because of my limitted internet, so there may be two more choices added on later/shortly**

---

ROUND 11

Green tater: Weary (lazy, lifeless, apathetic)
Judge: Kath

[Galadriel55]

A difficult round to judge indeed...

I have to say I'm more taken with the "things" rather than the people. Entmoot, Ban, and Oath just sound better, and they are funny. Uruk-hai is also a bit funny, as it makes me think of Saruman experimenting with a new species and producing an army with arms growing out of their heads...

[the phantom]

Mablung (the Hunter)- It's ridiculous that someone would send this in.
Saeros- Ditto above.
Entmoot- This one made me laugh. It's kinda true.
Ban of the Valar- Not so true, and not as funny.
Grima Wormtongue- Despicable, rather.
Farmer Maggot- He wasn't, & not in a funny way.
Oath of Feanor- Deadly serious, and not funny.
Uruk-hai- This one makes me laugh.
Hurin- Qualifies as blasphemy to play Hurin for this.

[Nogrod]

Ridiculous (absurd, ludicrous, preposterous)

Not in any sense ridiculous, not to the point nor fun:

Mablung (the Hunter)
Entmoot (saying it was ridiculous only betrays the suggester being ridiculous. :rolleyes:)
Ban of the Valar
Farmer Maggot
Oath of Feanor
Húrin

Which leaves only candidates which are neither brilliant or great either...

Grima Wormtongue - sad character rather, or then despicable, or even evil if one wants to look at him that way. But not so much ridiculous unless you wish to maintain that all puppets are ridiculous by definition.

Uruk-hai - To call the Uruks ridiculous sounds a bit odd as well. You could say deformed, twisted, cruel, maniacal, stupid; maybe mocking the nature and then by some way the products of a "ridiculous attempt at twisting nature" or something.

Saeros - I think comes the closest of the three: comparing men to animals sure is ridiculous, especially if done from jealousy (which is kind of self-contradicting) - then again, trying to ambush Túrin and get better of him far outreaches plain ridiculousness (okay, might go as ludicrous or preposterous) - and his fate is far from anything fun or to be smirked about.

[Gwathagor]

My choice is:

OATH OF FEANOR

[Boromir88]

I believe it would come down to the Oath of Feanor or Ban of the Valar (with the Entmoot being an outside humour chance).

And now...Menel finds himself with 2.

[Boromir88]

Tally

the phantom - 3 (Honest, Insane, Violent)
Nogrod - 2 (Extraordinary, Peaceful)
Gwath - 2 (Neglected, Charming)
Menel - 2 (Cuddly, Ridiculous)
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)

----

ROUND 11

Kath, these are your options for "weary."

Rivendell
The Old Forest
Gorlim the Unhappy
Maedhros
Mandos
Brown Lands
Mirkwood
Galion the Butler
Ringwraiths

Several places, but they rather fit and make sense with a few reasonable people too. :)

---

ROUND 12

I caved...and considering the alternative definitions this could also be interesting. Go crazy:

Green tater: Chewy (rubbery, gummy, stringy)
Judge: Lhuna

[Gwathagor]

I think Galion is the obvious answer here.

[Boromir88]

Ringwraiths are being added.

[Galadriel55]

I don't get Rivendell. The others are equally "ish". :D

[the phantom]

BEST REAL ANSWER

Mandos- It's called the "Halls of Waiting" after all. Quite true.

BEST FUNNY ANSWER

Maedhros- Bet he got tired hanging by his arm all day, ha ha!

BEST COMBINATION ANSWER

Galion the Butler- Heh heh, yes indeed.

[Nogrod]

Weary (lazy, lifeless, apathetic)


Good picks:

Mandos - To the point. Weary of all the sorrows of the world only he and his brother understand and unable to basically do anything about any fate as that could mess with Eru's plans (well he made one exception though). And like phantom said: the Halls of Waiting... You could touch the laziness and apathy - and the lifelesness almost by definition...

Brown Lands - a good one. You could really attach all the attributes given to it - and the weariness looming over it by both the place itself in the absence of the Entwives who had made it flower times ago - and the longing of the ents projected on it...

Rivendell - A place dedicated to the reminiscence of heroic days of the past where along it's long halways elves recited old poems - and did nothing for an age even if they could have! A place which air was thick with weariness by the loss of the great history and the depressing thought of future fate of the elves felt. A place perfectly suiting the over-ageing Bilbo Baggins to wither away... A place of an eternal autumn.


I can see why to pick if not agreeing fully:

The Old Forest - It was an old forest indeed, waning in a way and weariness fits it well. The problem though is that it seemed not to be that lazy, lifeless or apathetic when it had something to do - like stray and catch some hobbits...

Ringwraiths - Haha! Yeah, I could see the point in here, but in the absence of a deeper view of the ringwraith psychology it is up to anyone to have their own minds about their disposition... ("Oh no, not again a trip to catch some miserable halflings from the other side of the ME... give me a break; I was just having a sweet daydream of my glorious past and would rather sleep over my sorry state." :rolleyes:)

Galion the Butler - I'd disagree with him being a good choice. He was lazy and fond of wine, but weary, lifeless, apathetic? No.


Poor choices / can't get the point:

Maedhros - except for the joke phantom refers to it's hard to see him as lazy, lifeless or apathetic - and his weariness in face of their deeds Maglor would have been a more fitting choice... Maedhros played - and firmly decided to play it - to the bitter end. A weary one would have resigned.

Gorlim the Unhappy - weary maybe in one sense, but then again if he had been weary in the other sense (bringing in laziness or apathy) none of the bad things would have fallen after the first tragedy - so on the contrary it was hope and desire that fell him even deeper...

Mirkwood - can't see any point in choosing this one (someone needed to discard a tater I presume?).

[Kath]

Rivendell
The Old Forest
Gorlim the Unhappy
Maedhros
Mandos
Brown Lands
Mirkwood
Galion the Butler
Ringwraiths

A lot of these work for weary! Some of them didn't strike me at all as I read them though and some of them I just don't know enough about so I'm discounting: Gorlim the Unhappy, Maedhros, Mandos and the Brown Lands. Also I don't think Galion the Butler is weary. Drunk and in massive trouble very soon but not weary. The Ringwraiths are having a new lease of life at the moment what with new steeds and all so though I originally thought of them as being quite weary I've changed my mind.

Rivendell is good. I think there is a heavy sense of weariness there, but really it's also the centre of hope (literally if you think of Aragorn).

It's the two forests that really work for me. Mirkwood for literal reasons - Bombur falling in the river and sleeping for long periods of time, and then the Dwarves passing out every time they get near the elf fires. But it's more evil than weary.

So I choose: The Old Forest

[Boromir88]

Lhuna gets on the board with The Old Forest.

Next round in precisely 1 hour.

[Nogrod]

Rivendell is good. I think there is a heavy sense of weariness thereYes Kath! You got it! Although only half-way through: once again so near and so far at the same time. :( :)

But to be fair, I think The Old Forest was a great choice as well - not to talk of Mandos - or the Brown Lands... Kudos for those picking them!

[Boromir88]

Distracted by the beginning of the College Football season. :p But we begin new round...

Tally

the phantom - 3 (Honest, Insane, Violent)
Nogrod - 2 (Extraordinary, Peaceful)
Gwath - 2 (Neglected, Charming)
Menel - 2 (Cuddly, Ridiculous)
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)
Lhuna - 1 (Weary)

----

ROUND 12

Lhuna, for chewy, there is clearly some nice creativity here...

Swan Knights of Dol Amroth
Draugluin
burrahobbit
Tuna
Bilbo Baggins
Gorbag
Maglor
Rose Cotton
Morgul-knives

----

ROUND 13

Green tater: Melodramatic (showy, sensational, theatrical)
Judge: sally

[Nogrod]

A chewy Burrahobbit! Hah, wasn't that what it all was about, chewy or not? :D (Bilbo loses to the Burrahobbit as a pick as Burrahobbit is spot on.)

Or well, Tuna... you know if prepared badly it can be a bit gunny or rubbery.

Never kissed Rosie Cotton so hard to say about that.


Hopefully more intelligent ideas later.

[the phantom]

THESE ARE CHEWY

burrahobbit- So thought the three trolls.
Bilbo Baggins- So thought Smaug & Gollum.
Tuna- Ha ha ha!

[Boromir88]

Morgul-knives is added as well.

[Meneltarmacil]

THESE ARE CHEWY

burrahobbit- So thought the three trolls.
Bilbo Baggins- So thought Smaug & Gollum.
Tuna- Ha ha ha!

I liked "Tuna" as well.

Also, it helps to look at the list from a dragon's perspective. I'd go with Maglor in that case, as elves stay nice and juicy year after year while the rest get tough and stringy with age.

[Gwathagor]

What about things that chew?

[Nogrod]

What about things that chew?If we want to enlarge the scope of the word "chewy" then maybe we should also consider characters that are chewy as characters - so unlike Rosie Cotton who is straightforward good and nice and Gorbag who is straightforwardly bad and evil - then with characters like Maglor you need to chew a little bit more; and they are gummy or rubbery enough they are not that easily put into a mold to stay there nicely. :rolleyes:

[Lhunardawen]

Thank you, Kath! I dedicate this win to Boro. :D

I actually have an instant pick but I am still willing to be won over.

[the phantom]

Well, we can't possibly judge whether to try and sway you if you don't first know your instant pick, heh heh. ;)

In my opinion though those three I listed earlier are in their own class.

Much of the allure of burrahobbit is the simple humor in the name itself, because realistically Bilbo Baggins is superior as Bilbo is burrahobbit, and as Bilbo also found himself in other "chewy" situations (notably Smaug, Spiders, and Gollum of course) his chewiness exceeds that of burrahobbit.

And then Tuna works great as an absurd word-play pick- it would very likely win most RL rounds of Taters I would say.

In the end it's down to preference- the punny Tuna, or one of the two Bilbo taters.

[Nogrod]

Of the two Bilbos I think Burrahobbit is far funnier and more spot on. I mean you can say Bilbo entered also other "chewy" situations, but the scene with Bilbo managing to get himself called a burrahobbit is exactly a situation where it is a question of how he would taste and how to cook him...

Tuna still remains a favourite for me as well.

I'm also beginning to like the idea of picking a character you have to chew a little and not just put simply in a category like "good" or "evil". From that POV Maglor would be a perfect candidate - and if someone is stringy, then he is!

Rosie Cotton might be a wildcard as well.

[Lhunardawen]

My internet is spotty and I have to retire early, so I'll cast my vote hours ahead of the deadline.

I imagine Draugluin and Gorbag to be a tad leathery, for some reason. burrahobbit is a fitting choice especially in the context it was mentioned in the book, and would have won had not ++Túna made me chuckle out loud.

[Boromir88]

Sally has now made it onto the board. Heh, Tuna...clever use of that one, although I thought burrahobbit would take it.

All new red taters are going out now, and sicne I've cleared out my inbox, if I've accidentally forgotten to send anyone their "chewy" replacements, please let me know. :)

[Boromir88]

Tally

the phantom - 3 (Honest, Insane, Violent)
Nogrod - 2 (Extraordinary, Peaceful)
Gwath - 2 (Neglected, Charming)
Menel - 2 (Cuddly, Ridiculous)
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)
Lhuna - 1 (Weary)
sally - 1 (Chewy)

----

ROUND 13

sally for "melodramatic"...again have fun picking the winner out of this grouping: :p

Fingolfin
Aredhel
Gil-galad
Gandalf the Grey Uncloaked
Sack of Nargothrond
Legolas
Shelob
Eru Iluvatar
Horn of Gondor
Sador the Lame

-----

ROUND 14

Green tater: Rank (smelly, odorous, stinky)
Judge: Nogrod

[satansaloser2005]

....That cannot possibly have just happened.

[satansaloser2005]

All right. The rest of you have until the deadline to convince me that I shouldn't just pick Gandalf the Grey Uncloaked. I wish you luck.

[Boromir88]

With it being a holiday over here and things slowing down I was actually going to announce let's have a break today and continue again on Tuesday.

Enjoy the day. Cheers. :)

[the phantom]

That's the only right answer this round, Sally. I'm not going to bother making opposing arguments.

And now- I'm off to enjoy my schedule-free day! :cool:

[Nogrod]

Surprise us Sally and don't go with the trump card.

Think fex. of Fingolfin's Melodramatic story - being rewarded from his righteousness after all the toil, sorrow and heroic crossing of Helcaraxë, becoming the High king through his might and trueness - and his son's deeds.

And how does it end? Hearing a false story of his side losing he rides ALONE to challenge Morgoth himself into a duel! And he deals Morgoth a good deal of blows nobody had done or would (fex. making him to limp for the rest of his corporeal being)... and dying, of course, like any melodramatic hero needs to do. But even in death his body was rescued by none else than Thorondor and a cairn was built to honour his memory...


I mean what melodramatic is in Gandalf cloaked or uncloaked in comparison to that story?

[Galadriel55]

When I was already out of town I realized that I forgot to tell you guys I won't be here for a couple days. Sorry. :(


For melodramatic, I would say Aredhel and Sack of Nargothrond are quite accurate, but Mr. Uncloaked trumps them all. :cool:


PS: Boro, I didn't get a new red tater to replace chewy one. May I please...? :Merisu:

[Meneltarmacil]

I'm not sure why Gandalf the Grey Uncloaked seems to be the obvious choice here. Sure, it's hilarious, but how is it melodramatic?

[Gwathagor]

Or even dramatic. But melodramatic?

[Boromir88]

Due to complications Sally is going to be about a half an hourish late. I will post all the next round stuff soon after.

[satansaloser2005]

Melodramatic? Yes. Ridiculous? Certainly. Uncensored, uncloaked, and unacceptable.

++Gandalf the Grey Uncloaked

Predictable, but....sometimes there are just those cards, you know? :smokin:


Sorry for the delay, everyone. Busy day.

[Loslote]

Melodramatic? Yes. Ridiculous? Certainly. Uncensored, uncloaked, and unacceptable.

++Gandalf the Grey Uncloaked

:smokin: ^.^

[Nogrod]

Sorry for the delay, everyone. Busy day.No problem with the delay, but you should be sorry for your unimaginative decision... :rolleyes: :)

[Boromir88]

Lottie is the winner of "melodramatic"

Tally

the phantom - 3 (Honest, Insane, Violent)
Nogrod - 2 (Extraordinary, Peaceful)
Gwath - 2 (Neglected, Charming)
Menel - 2 (Cuddly, Ridiculous)
Kitanna - 1 (Deadly)
Lhuna - 1 (Weary)
sally - 1 (Chewy)
Lottie- 1 (Melodramatic)

----

ROUND 14

Nogrod for "rank"...again have fun picking the winner out of this grouping:

The Prancing Pony
Azog
Aragorn
Orthanc
The Dead Marshes
Turgon
Harry Goatleaf
Chief Wolf
Tom Huggins
Aule

*I caught another error (at least it was minor) that The Prancing Pony was actually not an red tater sent to me for "chewy" so, it's been removed from the previous list it has since been sent to me for this round.*
----

ROUND 15


Green tater: Dangerous (threatening, hazardous, fortified)
Judge: Wilwa

[Nogrod]

Just eyed the candidates and am going to sleep right now, but I must say The Dead Marshes are the slight favourites... although I can see many kinds of potential arising from there.

So looking forwards to your comments.

[Boromir88]

In a cross while posting the new round...Aule was sent to me for "Rank". So Aule is also added.

[Galadriel55]

Aragorn is just funny. Made me giggle. But I don't think it's really enough to pick it. Dead Marshes would work better, methinks.

And, question: Tom Huggins? I thought it was Bill Huggins. Not that it matters that much, they're both worth each other's company...

[Boromir88]

And, question: Tom Huggins? I thought it was Bill Huggins. Not that it matters that much, they're both worth each other's company...

I thought they were all related. Tom, Bill and Bert. I could have just made that up though.