T-I-G CVIII: Wolves of the Galadhrim (Game Thread)

[Rikae]

I was thinking maybe the game drags on until she or I is dead, but that wouldn't make sense. I mean if that is the case it's not a very high stakes ending. Either you vote to lynch me today and Nimrodel is satisfied and the game ends. We vote to lynch her and the game ends. Or we vote to kill you and Nimrodel offs me in the Night and the game ends. Sounds wrong, but we've been in the dark a lot of this game as it is. More so than usual. If Nimrodel is cursed that would make way more sense. Cursed and out for revenge.

But Nerwen wouldn't have known how it would pan out when she set up the rules. It could have ended up with Nimrodel killing multiple wolves, or multiple villagers - she could have been charged with killing half the village, or she could have been dead before the wolves were.

However, there is still that 2-3 wolves thing.

[Rikae]

And of course, my whole suspicion of Lottie is based on the idea that she actually hinted to the wolves that she was cursed, and they attacked her because of it.

Why would she do that? I can think of a couple possibilities:
a) maybe she is both cursed and out for revenge, and wanted to be a wolf so she could have night kills?
b) maybe she was simply a hunter (and out for revenge) and could only kill Agan if she was attacked?
c)????
d)profit

Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

[Loslote]

And of course, my whole suspicion of Lottie is based on the idea that she actually hinted to the wolves that she was cursed, and they attacked her because of it.

Why would she do that? I can think of a couple possibilities:
a) maybe she is both cursed and out for revenge, and wanted to be a wolf so she could have night kills?
b) maybe she was simply a hunter (and out for revenge) and could only kill Agan if she was attacked?
c)????
d)profit

Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

I mean, I would like to weigh in, yeah. I did not hint to the wolves, and I definitely am not the Cursed. I want the people who killed my Lover dead, yes, but it's not a game mechanic or anything - I can still win if they aren't all dead. I didn't kill Agan because she got Tar lynched, I killed her because I thought she was a wolf. I'm suspicious of Kit, not because she also voted Tar, but because it makes sense to me that she would be the last wolf.

Also, if I were the Cursed and was hinting to the wolves, why would I have killed Agan that same Night? If I was trying to become a wolf, it makes no sense to kill part of the pack the Night I supposedly joined it.

Honestly, I leave for a few hours and everything falls apart. :rolleyes:

[Farael]

Perhaps killing them all is her condition for winning? In which case, I wonder if the village can win along with her, or if we need to lynch her to win.


I am worried about this too. There's a few possibilities in my mind.


if Lottie is an innocent hunter with no ulterior motives. There was a wolf (whether from the beginning of the game, or a cursed who turned). If we lynch Lottie toDay, the wolf will nab an Ordo toNight and toMorrow will be 2 ordos vs 1 wolf. Not horrible odds but not great either.
Lottie doesn't care about the village, she just wants revenge. Her win condition included killing all wolves AND the people who killed Tar-Jex. There are no more wolves around (after all, the narration for last night did not include any "wolfish" elements. If we let Lottie live tonight, she might be able to "revenge kill" Kit and win. Or just convince all of us to do her job for her toDay.
To make things worse, what if Lottie still has her "hunter kill" ability if she gets lynched or attacked by a wolf. In this scenario there's one last wolf around. Meaning that killing her MIGHT end up with someone else dead, who could be an ordo... effectively handing the game to the remaining wolf


Now Coppermirror has replied after Lottie's reveal, and didn't say anything about being Nimrodel, which has me thinking there will be no more reveals toDay.

I'm at a loss. Now that I've had time to read the whole discussion for today (and having Lottie's reveal), I somewhat see Rikae's point, though I still have a bad feeling about her insistence in trying to unmask Nimrodel.

I just feel we don't know enough about the parameters of the game to really figure out where we stand, which makes interpreting peoples' comments a bit more difficult (e.g. is this a misguided Ordo or a wolf or a vengeful Nerwen? What are the win conditions for the non-Ordos?)

I'm tempted to trust Lottie on the basis of Occam's razor, but that leaves the question of whether the remaining wolf was there from the beginning (and thus Kit or Rikae) or if it may have been a cursed who turned (which would add everyone else to the mix, really).

(Note that's not an edit, my girlfriend got home as I was writing this and got distracted. I likely cross posted with a bunch of people. The last post I read was Rikae's ??? Profit one

[Rikae]

Also, if I were the Cursed and was hinting to the wolves, why would I have killed Agan that same Night? If I was trying to become a wolf, it makes no sense to kill part of the pack the Night I supposedly joined it.
The only reason I can see is that you had to kill the Tar voters. The narration does suggest as much, you have to admit.

Honestly, I leave for a few hours and everything falls apart. :rolleyes:
Well, if it's any help, I do find Kit's response to the suggestion pretty wolfy.
I'm not voting until I absolutely have to. I want to make as informed a decision as I possibly can.

Going through Day 2's posts for cursed hints turned up that comment of yours and really nothing else, except one place where Farael mentions "good people" in scare quotes. That could look like an evil hint, but I can't see him hinting and then suggesting people look for hints toDay!

Well, lemmie make a list:

Farael actually looks fairly trustworthy to me. Most of what he's said toDay would have worked against his interests if he were a wolf.

Coppermirror has been very under the radar, but asked a lot of questions about whether the cursed would have showed up as a wolf or innocent to Sally yesterDay. It wouldn't have been a good thing for a cursed-Copper to draw our attention to. Also, I don't see any particular reason the wolves would have gone after Copper on the no-kill night.

Kitanna just gives off a wolfish vibe to me and has from the beginning. The fact that now she seems mostly interested in the possibility of her own survival and not in a village win doesn't help. After all, if she's an ordo, she can die and still win. On the other hand, if she was a wolf from the beginning, we have no explanation for the missed kill, and if she's cursed, we don't know why the wolves would have gone after her, either.

Loslote Is Nimrodel, that much I'm willing to believe. I'm not so sure she's on our side, or that she's telling the whole truth about her role, for reasons I just listed - possible cursed-hinting and the fact that her role as she revealed it doesn't quite fit with the narration.

If Loslote really is just a hunter, and Kitanna was a wolf from the beginning, we have no explanation for the no-kill night.

So either Loslote is up to something or we have a cursed. And if we have a cursed, there's no particular reason to vote for Kitanna (aside from "looking wolfy"), but rather, we should vote for the most likely cursed...

which, to my mind, brings us back to Lottie.

[Coppermirror]

Now Coppermirror has replied after Lottie's reveal, and didn't say anything about being Nimrodel, which has me thinking there will be no more reveals toDay.

Nope, I'm definitely not Nimrodel. Sally also dreamed of you, so it should be impossible for you to be Nimrodel either.

I'm sorry for not having contributed more to the discussion so far. Problem is, there are so many potential variables.

Right now, I think it's most likely that if we have a wolf remaining, it's a cursed wolf, because what other explanation is there for the lack of a wolf kill on the Night that Aganzir died? And if we have a third wolf (however they got there), it makes sense that Nimrodel would be on the side of the village, because if not, that would be a vicious game balance. I'm going to discard the possibilty that the game is so unfair.

However, if Nimrodel were to be a third, cursed wolf, that wouldn't break the game. But it would mean she had three roles - lover, hunter, cursed. That's an awfully complicated thing to put in a game without explaining it to the village. Would Nerwen really do that?

And if there is no "wolf" any more but what we have is just Nimrodel's revenge on the Amroth voters, it's...a bit odd. I would have expected the game to end with the last wolf's death even if Nimrodel had a vendetta. And this would not explain why it is that there was no wolf kill on the Night that Agan died.

I haven't read through all of this page in detail, so I'll read through the posts toDay so far carefully and see if my opinion changes, but right now I'm inclined to trust Lottie and to look for a cursed wolf. Which means I'll go back to looking through the older posts for who I think the wolves might have targeted.

Edit: crossed with Rikae

[Rikae]

However, if Nimrodel were to be a third, cursed wolf, that wouldn't break the game. But it would mean she had three roles - lover, hunter, cursed. That's an awfully complicated thing to put in a game without explaining it to the village. Would Nerwen really do that?
The way I see it, it wouldn't need to be any of those roles fully (she's not a normal hunter, for instance, as far as we already know) but a new role with similarities to those.
She's more of an assassin than a hunter anyway, seems like.


And if there is no "wolf" any more but what we have is just Nimrodel's revenge on the Amroth voters, it's...a bit odd. I would have expected the game to end with the last wolf's death even if Nimrodel had a vendetta. And this would not explain why it is that there was no wolf kill on the Night that Agan died.
The most likely scenario to me is that Loslote was the wolves' target (the narration suggests as much, and so does the fact that they could well have thought she was cursed).
Why she didn't die - well, either she was cursed, or maybe her one-time "assassination" ability also protects her. But wouldn't she know that?

What we do have is this: that Aganwolf brought up the possibility of a cursed, and that the following night, there was no wolf kill. I think not having a cursed is too much to hope for.

Edit: just realized as it was posting that I wanted to add: "Aganwolf brought up the possibility of a cursed that the wolves knew about"

[Rikae]

I'm going to have to vote soon. Is anyone around?

[Farael]

I'm going to have to vote soon. Is anyone around?

I'll be voting within the hour

[Farael]

Ok, time to vote. Here's my rationale:


If Lottie is evil, then we are kinda screwed. There's no way to know what her victory condition may be.
Assuming Lottie is good, and knowing that I am good (I know, some of you may disagree) that leaves Copper, Kit and Rikae
I distrusted Rikae all day, but she kept on answering and trying to figure things out... without defending herself "excessively". I know that's subjective, but feelings are most of what I have to go on with
That leaves Copper and Kit. I haven't had much of a chance to get a feel for either. If there WAS a cursed, and If I read things correctly, then Sally-seer dreamed of Copper the night there was no kill. However, we can't be certain who the wolves went for! It might've been Kit or Rikae for all I know
I think for now I will trust Sally's dream and, by exclusion, that leaves me with Kit for today. Tomorrow, if I'm still around, I will have to decide whether Rikae or Copper are the most likely remaining wolf
May Eru help us all


++Kitanna

[Rikae]

Addition to the idea that Galadriel should reveal toDay: if Nimrodel's ranger powers are the same as Amroth's, she can't protect the same person twice in a row, and the narration made it sound like she already protected Galadriel last Night.

Lottie, if you're around, can you explain this post of yours?

Edit: X'd with Farael

[Rikae]

Never mind, I assume this refers to it:

I think we probably do have a Cursed, since my hunter kill shouldn't have stopped any Night kills from happening (which was why I was so concerned yesterDay that we not rely on the Ranger, because before Rikae reminded me that we might have a Cursed, I had thought that somehow my hunter kill had stopped the wolf kill, and didn't want anyone to think they could rely on another 'ranger save' the next Night).

[Coppermirror]

Day 1.

Kitanna:
- banters
- speculates wildly, and among those, there's one known hit: Tar-Jêx as one of the Lovers. Given that Tar-Jêx got killed and revealed as Amroth on Day 1, they might have thought that was Seerish, but if they did, it didn't stop them thinking Boro was a better kill option for Night 2.
- says "I'm magic after all." in response to Agan's "Blimey! I didn't think we'd get caught this quickly." about the Lovers guess, and then speculates about the Lovers' roles. The "I'm magic" stuff might have been too bold-sounding to be followed up.
- votes randomly for Tar-Jêx, who anyone would have expected to be safe from being voted off on Day 1, so if they thought Seer!Kitanna had dreamed of him as a Lover/Ranger, Seer!Kitanna would have expected her vote to be 100% ineffectual and safe. (Although it turns out it wasn't safe.)

Rikae:
n/a

Farael:
n/a

Loslote:
- banter, talks of dark portents
- says could buy Kitanna's speculation about Lover-cobblers.
- votes Boro, leaves

Day 2

Kitanna:
- Post #75 has multiple suggestions. Can't see anything of note there.
- Shows up to vote. Really, there is so little there.

Rikae:
- Points out that Tar may not have known details of Nimrodel's role.
- Suggests maybe Nimrodel's an illogical hunter.

Farael
- suggests that Nimrodel can both protect and be a hunter, but that it's unlikely.

Agan:
- lots of suggestions that there's a cobbler, focused on McCaber.
- among other things, suggested Boro was killed for cobbler-hinting
- suggests that a better reason would be that the wolves wanted something specific (a cursed) more than they wanted to nab the "revealed" Agan!Seer. This is something that could, on its own, just be a way of trying to plausibly explain why Agan was still alive if she was really the Seer.
- "I'll be happy to give you Nimrodel's name if I see her suggest (as discreetly as she wants) she'd prefer I did that" - she may have been hoping that Nimrodel would say something, whether revealing herself and saying yes or subtly hinting a "no" to Agan.

Loslote:
The "cursed before" could have been her trying to contact wolves, but could have been entirely innocent too. This was also at a time when she was about to Night-kill Agan, so it could be odd to reach out to the wolves when she was trying hard to kill one.

All three of Kitanna, Rikae and Farael look like people that the wolves could reasonably have gone for on suspicion of Seerishness. The latter two missed an entire Day, and Kitanna left early and made a throwaway vote on Day 1 then didn't say much on Day 2.

I am concerned that perhaps Lottie could be untrustworthy and the village's remaining opponent, but frankly at this stage if she is it takes the game to levels of difficulty that I'm not sure I can manage to deal with right now.

I'm going to move on to look at the next two Days and see if anyone is looking as if they just got turned into a wolf there.

[Loslote]

Lottie, if you're around, can you explain this post of yours?

Edit: X'd with Farael

Certainly. I mentioned this briefly in an earlier post, but I can elaborate a bit. I had seen that everyone seemed to be assuming that there was a Ranger save, and, not having a better explanation, did not want to risk telling everyone that Nimrodel was not, in fact, a Ranger, since I had no way of knowing that other than the fact that I myself am Nimrodel. However, I didn't want any decisions to be made based on the assumption that Nimrodel could save anyone as the Ranger, so I did what I could to suggest that people do not rely on my supposed ability to save anyone.

I apologize that I haven't been around as much toDay as I had hoped - we had surprise visitors who stayed all day, and I wasn't able to get away to post.

Edit: xed since the post I quoted - yes, that's the earlier post I was referring to.

[Rikae]

Oh well. It's late, and I'm exhausted.

Although I don't think Loslote is telling us everything she knows, and it does seem likely she was the wolves' target on the no-kill night, there is a chance that she isn't actually against the village (maybe just after Kitanna?)
There's also the chance we had three wolves from the beginning, in which case, I can be sure the last wolf is Kitanna.
And in the case of a cursed that isn't Lottie, Kitanna is a possibility (and there are reasons I mentioned that Farael and Copper are less likely).

In light of that:
++Kitanna

Let's hope we got it right. That "cursed before" business is really nagging at me...

[Loslote]

Hopefully we're right about Kit - she makes the most sense in both scenarios, so I'm pretty confident, but still. Crossing my fingers.

++Kitanna

[Coppermirror]

That's three votes for Kitanna, which means that's it for her now. I'm not done with my analysis of the situation yet, but I'll keep on with it even though it's pointless as far as toDay is concerned and my vote doesn't count, in case the decision toDay was wrong.

Kitanna, if the decision toDay is wrong, what do you think ought to be done toMorrow? Do you suspect anybody in particular?

[Kitanna]

++Kitanna
You're all wrong, but it's too late to stop it.

[Nerwen]

The Tally
Farael --> Kit (1)
Rikae --> Kit (2)
Lottie --> Kit (3)
Kit ----> Kit (4)

Left to vote: Coppermirror.

[Coppermirror]

It is getting pretty late, so I suppose I might as well vote now. May as well make it 5/5 for better or worse.

++Kitanna

[Nerwen]

The Tally
Farael --> Kit (1)
Rikae --> Kit (2)
Lottie --> Kit (3)
Kit --> Kit (4)
Coppermirror --> Kit (5)

[Nerwen]

Cop, you mentioned wanting to do an analysis. Is that still the case?

[Coppermirror]

Yes, but since the voting's all over with I wasn't in any hurry to finish it up quickly. But I haven't actually found anything useful yet, so if you were hoping to go ahead and have the deadline early I don't mind.

[Nerwen]

Well, I'm going up the street now, so I'll give the result when I
get back. (Probably about half an hour.) Feel free to post in the meantime.

[Coppermirror]

There's no more point in considering Kitanna since if she's a wolf she's about to by lynched anyway, so I'll just look at Rikae, Farael and Lottie.

Day 3

Rikae
- Sceptical of Sally, and (not unreasonably) wanted voting to not go ahead without more details. Considered a lot of fake reveal scenarios.
- Sally finds her attitude about the revealed innocents perturbing, thinking that Rikae could be unhappy about narrowing odds. But if Rikae was a cursed, it actually wouldn't count.

Farael
- Also sceptical of Sally.
- Was quick to vote for Shasta after his "reveal", but if a wolf he would know that Shasta was doomed. So the vote placement, although the one which tipped it into 4 votes and sealed Shasta's fate, is not indicative of guilt or innocence.

Lottie
- Believed Sally and voted pretty quickly, but she had to vote very soon and was busy, so it was sensible. Didn't say much that Day.

Really, Rikae and Farael behaved in similar ways, albeit that Rikae was more aggressively sceptical and Farael was more low-key and voted faster (whereas the votes after his didn't count). I'm not sure what they would usually do as wolves. If I had to pick the more traditionally wolfish behaviour of the two I'd say Farael's, but there's a possibility a Rikae wolf would go for a bold strategy.

Day 4

Rikae and Farael's big argument mostly doesn't seem enlightening. Rikae does something odd in that she suggests that people vote for her, which is something I generally think an innocent should never do and which a wolf may use as a gambit. But then Farael agrees with that and says voting for her sounds like a good idea just because nobody should ever pull such a stunt. Which is also pretty bad...but may have been taking into account that it's not a wise thing for an innocent to do.

Rikae seems to be spending a lot of energy thinking things through, and also finds something which could legitimately be a slip from Lottie. It looks like a pretty genuine effort and thought process, but maybe Rikae is just a clever wolf. And if she's a wolf then she probably wouldn't know the true details of Nimrodel's role so would need to consider them. Farael also has some doubts. They look reasonable too.

And I'm probably about out of time now, so I'll leave it at this. No conclusions reached yet, unfortunately.

[Rikae]

Had to check the game as soon as I woke up.

I just have to say this, because it's bugging me:

No, ordos should definitely not always put their own survival first! An ordo wins when the village wins, so although we generally should try to stay alive, we should prioritize the survival and effectiveness of gifteds over our own survival. Of course a wolf can bluff at doing the same thing, but that doesn't mean it's never legitimate.
Jeez, I thought that was werewolf 101.

Anyway, judging from Kitanna's reaction, we were wrong. I had a bad feeling about it when I cast my vote. :(

[Rikae]

And also, I don't like it how Farael and Copper are both like "innocents should generally never do this" instead of actually looking at the situation as we knew it at the time. Lazy.

[Coppermirror]

No, ordos should definitely not always put their own survival first! An ordo wins when the village wins, so although we generally should try to stay alive, we should prioritize the survival and effectiveness of gifteds over our own survival. Of course a wolf can bluff at doing the same thing, but that doesn't mean it's never legitimate.

It can be a good idea - never is too firm a term - it's just not something that should be jumped to hastily, especially at the point in the game when every ordo counts. Though now I check again it's not as if you were saying "vote for me now!" but "vote for me if Nimrodel doesn't reveal toDay!" which is slightly different. I still don't feel comfortable with that in toDay's context, though.

Anyway, judging from Kitanna's reaction, we were wrong. I had a bad feeling about it when I cast my vote. :(

I'm still hoping it might have been right. What about her reaction made you think the vote direction was wrong?

Edit: crossed with Rikae

[Rikae]

I'm still hoping it might have been right. What about her reaction made you think the vote direction was wrong?

Edit: crossed with Rikae

Just that if she was a wolf she'd have no reason to deny it anymore when she was already lynched.

[Nerwen]

That took longer than expected, so I may as well wait for the normal DL.

[Nerwen]

The next morning the Elves were more bewildered than ever.

"This is utter insanity!" wailed Kitanna, as they tried to make sense of Galadriel's cryptic last words.

The Lady, it seemed, had thought one of their number might have been seduced into the service of evil- but had she been right?

"I wish I knew what Nimrodel's goals are," Farael muttered, "I'm still not convinced she's wholly on our side."

"We know that Lottie is Nimrodel," said Rikae with assurance, "so hearing from her exactly what she does can only help."

"Huh?" said Farael.

"Why yes, yes I am," announced Lottie with a bow. "Nimrodel, at your service! I killed Aganzir because I knew she was lying- and because she slew my beloved Amroth. Now who wants to help me kill Kitanna?"

"Wait," Rikae's eyes narrowed. "Aganzir... Sally... Kit... Amroth's murderers! Are you on our side- or your own? And then... didn't I catch you whispering to Aganzir? You're not a werewolf, are you?"

Everyone took a step back from Lottie.

"I killed Aganzir, remember? Now come on, everyone, let's lynch Kit!"

"Oh, very well, then," said the Elves. There was, they all agreed, something terribly evil about her, even if they were not sure what. They surrounded the maiden, weapons drawn.

Kitanna faced them proudly, her eyes flashing. "You're all wrong, but it's too late to stop it." She unclasped the leaf-shaped brooch from her cloak, and in a sudden swift movement used the pin to tear open the artery in her wrist.

Not until the blood had ceased to flow from Kitanna's body did they give up waiting for her to change. By then, even the most reluctant had to admit that they had, once again, caused the death of an innocent Elf.


~~~~~~

The Living
Lottie
Farael
Rikae
Coppermirror


The Dead
Nerwen, throat torn out Night One. (Mod).
Tar-Jêx, thrown off a flet Day One. (Ranger/Lover).
Boro, dragged under by a swan-submarine Night Two. (Ordo).
McCaber, choked on lembas Day Two. (Ordo).
Aganzir, shot with bow-and-arrow Night Three. (Werewolf).
Shasta, hanged with Elven rope Day Three. (Werewolf).
Sally, barbecued Night Four. (Seer).
Kitanna, wrists slashed with leaf-brooch Day Four. (Ordo).


It is now Night Five.

[Nerwen]

Rikae woke with a start. At first she was not sure if the fright that had set her heart racing was part of her evil dreams, the sound like faint footfalls just the blood throbbing in her ears. As the mists of sleep cleared, she realised there was indeed someone moving about her talan. Yet, the platform lay clear in the starlight.

She caught a glimpse of movement, a shimmering shadow that did not quite match the background of leaves and tree trunk.

Then she knew: the intruder was wearing one of the hue-shifting cloaks of Lorien.

"Who's there?" she asked uneasily.

With a chuckle, the figure threw back its hood, revealing a hairy lupine snout with glittering fangs.

"Now wouldn't you like to know?" said the werewolf.

"Aiiiee!" Rikae screamed, her cry cut short as the werewolf flung its cloak over her head, holding it tight over her lips and nostrils. The Elf struggled, but she could not match the iron strength of the creature of darkness. Soon she had no more air.


~~~~~~

The Living
Lottie
Farael
Coppermirror


The Dead
Nerwen, throat torn out Night One. (Mod).
Tar-Jêx, thrown off a flet Day One. (Ranger/Lover).
Boro, dragged under by a swan-submarine Night Two. (Ordo).
McCaber, choked on lembas Day Two. (Ordo).
Aganzir, shot with bow-and-arrow Night Three. (Werewolf).
Shasta, hanged with Elven rope Day Three. (Werewolf).
Sally, barbecued Night Four. (Seer).
Kitanna, wrists slashed with leaf-brooch Day Four. (Ordo).
Rikae, smothered with Elven cloak Night Five. (Ordo).


It is now Day Five.

[Coppermirror]

So there's either a cursed-Farael or a cursed-LottieNimrodel. And the wolf must have had a reason for choosing to kill Rikae, but what that reason is I'm not yet sure. If the wolf is Lottie there's a very simple reason why Rikae would be dead, because she was the most openly sceptical of Lottie yesterDay. But that doesn't mean a Farael-wolf couldn't have had some reason to get rid of Rikae too.

Since it's the last Day and Farael's one of the players still around, there's something that's been bothering me which I hope he can answer. I'm sorry to ask about something with a slightly out-of-game basis.

I'm really sorry folks. I foolishly assumed there'd be some comment on the Admin thread about the game starting. Since I am subscribed to the thread, I patiently waited for the e-mail to let me know... and missed Day1.

But, for several Days, you failed to go into invisible mode, which means that when you were around, your name was visible when you were present at the Middle Earth Mirth forum. And early on Day 1, around the same time I was reminding Tar-Jêx that he need to go into invisible mode, I saw that your username was listed as present for a while, and then you left and I didn't see your name there at any further point on Day 1. If you were there, why didn't you notice that the game had started? I think it was your username that I saw and not that of somebody else with a similar name.

Also, a question for Lottie...

I was a logical hunter of sorts - the of sorts is because I don't need to die before I can kill, which I at least haven't seen before - but I only got one kill, which I used to take out Agan, both because I was completely sure her Seer reveal was false and because she was responsible for the death of my Beloved Amroth. Of course, my role has changed before (from a typical suicidal Lover to a hunter), so I'm not positive it won't change again, but for now I am, in terms of extra powers and what not, effectively an ordo right now.

Is there anything else about your role that you haven't mentioned yet? And from the above, it looks as if your role changed from plain Lover to one-shot Hunter upon Amroth's death - am I reading that right?

I'm going to sleep now, so I won't be back for a while.

[Farael]

Well, before the game started, I checked my settings and I THOUGHT I was set to invisible mode. I don't remember what setting it was that got me confused. As to why I appeared online when I wasn't... no idea. I likely left a tab open on my phone or computer!

Interesting how Copper , who was dreamed about the night that there was no kill, is going on the offensive very quickly toDay. Need I remind you that I was dreamed about AFTER you, on a night that someone was killed by the wolves?

[Coppermirror]

I ended up staying up a little later after all. Really going off to sleep after posting this. (What am I doing being up past 3AM...good grief.)

Interesting how Copper , who was dreamed about the night that there was no kill, is going on the offensive very quickly toDay. Need I remind you that I was dreamed about AFTER you, on a night that someone was killed by the wolves?

I don't know which of you and Lottie is the final wolf. Of course I'm going to ask both of you questions straight away if I have any questions to ask.

You're saying that you're a Seer-confirmed innocent who was dreamed of the Night after the no-kill Night? That's not true. You were the person who was dreamed of on the no-kill Night, and I was dreamed of on the Night before that one.

Known roles:
Shasta (wolf)
Copper (ordo)
Farael (ordo)
Sally (seer, duh)

Unknown roles:
Lottie
Rikae
Kitanna

In case anyone cares, the dreams are listed above in order.

So...
Night 1, Sally dreamed of Shasta.

Night 2, Sally dreamed of me.

Night 3, Sally dreamed of Farael. On this night, Nimrodel hunted Agan, and there was no wolf kill.

Unless I'm mistaken, that's the order of events. We also have confirmation from Nerwen that if there was a cursed who was turned on Night 3, the cursed would not show up to Sally as a wolf.

[Farael]

I ended up staying up a little later after all. Really going off to sleep after posting this. (What am I doing being up past 3AM...good grief.)



I don't know which of you and Lottie is the final wolf. Of course I'm going to ask both of you questions straight away if I have any questions to ask.

You're saying that you're a Seer-confirmed innocent who was dreamed of the Night after the no-kill Night? That's not true. You were the person who was dreamed of on the no-kill Night, and I was dreamed of on the Night before that one.



So...
Night 1, Sally dreamed of Shasta.

Night 2, Sally dreamed of me.

Night 3, Sally dreamed of Farael. On this night, Nimrodel hunted Agan, and there was no wolf kill.

Unless I'm mistaken, that's the order of events. We also have confirmation from Nerwen that if there was a cursed who was turned on Night 3, the cursed would not show up to Sally as a wolf.

My apologies. I was counting night one as the night after the first Lynch :$ I haven't played in a while...

So then the question is, once more, what is Lottie 's true tile?

[Loslote]

So there's either a cursed-Farael or a cursed-LottieNimrodel. And the wolf must have had a reason for choosing to kill Rikae, but what that reason is I'm not yet sure. If the wolf is Lottie there's a very simple reason why Rikae would be dead, because she was the most openly sceptical of Lottie yesterDay. But that doesn't mean a Farael-wolf couldn't have had some reason to get rid of Rikae too.

Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple. For one, Rikae's death could be used to frame me and provide a wolf an easy lynch. Unfortunately, neither of you came out swinging with that, which I was hoping to see, since that would seem, to me, to be a pretty strong indication of guilt. For another, Rikae is a very strong player, and she has shown that she's very good at spotting inconsistencies - maybe one of the two of you still has something to hide, so I'll probably be looking back at some point toDay. That being said, I have a wedding to go to, so I'll probably only be around very early and very late toDay.

Also, a question for Lottie...

Is there anything else about your role that you haven't mentioned yet? And from the above, it looks as if your role changed from plain Lover to one-shot Hunter upon Amroth's death - am I reading that right?

That's about it. Since I have exercised my one kill (which, Rikae mentioned earlier that I sounded more like an Assassin, so I looked it up, and that does sound closer to what my role was, at essence, so you can think of it like that if you want), I am, for all purposes, an ordo.

Well, before the game started, I checked my settings and I THOUGHT I was set to invisible mode. I don't remember what setting it was that got me confused. As to why I appeared online when I wasn't... no idea. I likely left a tab open on my phone or computer!

Interesting how Copper , who was dreamed about the night that there was no kill, is going on the offensive very quickly toDay. Need I remind you that I was dreamed about AFTER you, on a night that someone was killed by the wolves?

This post strikes me as very defensive. However, everyone has reason to want to stay alive toDay, since a wrong lynch loses us the game at this point, so I'm not sure defensiveness is necessarily a sign of guilt in this case.

[Loslote]

I expected to have missed a great deal, but it's been twelve hours since my last post and nothing has been said! I'm back now, though, and I'll be going back through the thread, trying to decide which of Cop or Farael seem more likely to be the last wolf.

[Farael]

Sorry guys, I had a full day of pre-x-mas festivities and now I must go to sleep. I have to believe the lover is on our team; which leaves me with a vote for

++copper

[Coppermirror]

Back and reading.

[Loslote]

I dunno. I haven't found anything really incriminating, no evil slips or definitive wolfy votes, but I do feel much worse about Farael than I do about Cop - his voting patterns have been iffy, and his argument with Rikae yesterDay, followed by his defensive tone toDay, I think push him over the edge of suspicious. I'll probably be voting for Farael, but I'll wait a bit, read through another couple times, see if I catch anything more conclusive.

[Coppermirror]

Well, Farael's vote means that my only option is to vote for him and hope that Lottie's the innocent, since if she isn't she's already won anyway. Might as well place my vote now.

++Farael

[Loslote]

Alright. I'll go ahead and vote for

++Farael

and hope we're right. It's about fifty-fifty anyway, so...there could be worse odds?

[Coppermirror]

(a)

♪
Oh terror, doom, for Nimrodel hath a wolven snout and razor jaws!
Once beloved of our ruler, that fair elf-maid is no more.
We are betrayed by her; and thus our blood will soak the mallorn.
Farael first, and then I too will fail to reach the dawn.

Galadriel's dreams were true and certain;
Yet still we lost to foolish diversions,
And thus will pay a heavy price for sweet Lothlorien.
♪

(b)

♪
Let the Night hold no fears in Lothlorien;
May no wolves creep out from their loathsome dens.
Every leaf in this golden wood sings joy,
And no longer shall we doubt and seek out ploys.

Pitiful Farael, cursed and transformed,
His elven-form lost, can ne'er be reformed.
Though what has been done cannot be undone,
We may sing of the fallen here under the sun.
♪

[Nerwen]

(a).

Sorry, Cop.

[Loslote]

For what did I linger in this accursed place? For what did I languish in these putrid woods? For what did I tolerate living amongst warmongers and hawks, always seeking out new battles to fight? Nay, indeed, for who, Galadhrim, for who! I lingered only for Amroth, for my Love, my King! And you have slaughtered him you have cut down your King when all he sought was to protect you. All his hope lay only in wishing to guide his people safely through this evil, and instead, you fools have destroyed the only good thing you have ever had to boast of - and out of what? Fear? Greed? Anger? No! Only out of haste! He was condemned within seconds, a sudden betrayal none could have stayed once it was decided. Fie! Fie on all the Galadhrim! My rage shall know no bounds, my fury shall be endless, my wrath shall be remembered into the ages to come! The Galadhrim shall know the sting of my hate, shall feel my pain and shall know, for generations to come, the weight of the injustice they have done to their King and Protector.

Sing, Galadhrim, of the rage of Nimrodel, that brought countless ills upon the Golden Wood! For indeed, I will have my vengeance against the people of Lorien, I will exact my revenge upon you all! Every single Sindar elf shall perish at my hand, and every wolf as well, all cut down mercilessly for their crimes against their King and my Beloved! I have shot the fell wolf Aganzir where she stood, and watched the life fade from her eyes. The very wolf who bit me, turned me, gave me the power I needed, Shasta, dark demon wolf of the north, I saw him dead ere the sun set, saw him hanged with the slippery, foul rope of the Sindar weavers. I roasted the noble lady Galadriel, proud beyond her deserts, as she slept at night, thinking herself secure in the bed she built on the land of another’s people. I saw Kitanna dead, convinced the foolish elves of Lorien that she was to blame, until even Kitanna herself admitted defeat and surrendered her life to the halls of Mandos. I smothered Rikae in her own elven cloak, forced her spirit to flee from her using cloth of her own make, reeking of the Sindar pollution. And now shall fall, too, Farael and Coppermirror, their blood joining that of their fellow elves, a river of life-blood which shall cleanse this wood from the poison of the Sindar elves.

All have felt the sting of my vengance! All have born the weight of my pain! All of Lorien now knows the price that must be paid for slaughtering their own king, the only good thing these elves ever had to boast of, and have learned the folly of their ways! This lesson, indeed, they will not soon forget, and nor shall the Silvan elves, who will remember, always, that these interlopers who have dwelt so long by the seas they have become soaked and salted with its waters, and have taken into themselves its tumultuous crashing and violence, its war-fever and eternal tumult, this pestilence cannot and will not be born by our people, and will be wiped from Middle-Earth for all eternity to come!

[Coppermirror]

Ah well. I had a bad feeling it might be that one. I'd better grab my harp! Sorry for being late toDay and leaving Farael to make the decision on his own.

Excellent rant, Lottie!

[Loslote]

Ah well. I had a bad feeling it might be that one. I'd better grab my harp! Sorry for being late toDay and leaving Farael to make the decision on his own.

Excellent rant, Lottie!

I've been sitting on that one for so long, you have no idea. :p

[Nerwen]

Standing in the shallows of her eponymous river as dusk fell, Nimrodel beat Farael to death with the oar of an Elven boat, aided by Coppermirror. Blood eddied out from Farael's broken body, staining the once crystalline waters of the River Nimrodel an angry crimson.

"He, er... doesn't look like he's going to change..." Coppermirror observed doubtfully.

"No," said Nimrodel, "but I am."

With that, her fair shape underwent a swift and hideous transformation, while Coppermirror could only look on in disbelief.

"Nimrodel! Why?"

"Why?" Wolf-Nimrodel snarled, baring her long white fangs. "I'll tell you why!"

And she did. (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=696235&postcount=296)

Seizing her chance as the werewolf paused for breath at the end of her long rant, Coppermirror turned to flee, but the monster was after her in an instant. With a leap, Wolf-Nimrodel came crashing onto the Elf-maid's shoulders, knocking her flat to the ground, where she proceeded to tear her limb from limb.

Raising her blood-dripping muzzle to the sky, she who had been Nimrodel howled in triumph and despair at the evening stars.

~~~~~~

The Living
Lottie, Nimrodel the Cursed Lover. (Werewolf).

The Dead
Nerwen, throat torn out Night One. (Mod).
Tar-Jêx, thrown off a flet Day One. (Ranger/Lover).
Boro, dragged under by a swan-submarine Night Two. (Ordo).
McCaber, choked on lembas Day Two. (Ordo).
Aganzir, shot with bow-and-arrow Night Three. (Werewolf).
Shasta, hanged with Elven rope Day Three. (Werewolf).
Sally, barbecued Night Four. (Seer).
Kitanna, wrists slashed with leaf-brooch Day Four. (Ordo).
Rikae, smothered with Elven cloak Night Five. (Ordo).
Farael, beaten to death with oar Day Five. (Ordo).
Coppermirror, torn apart by werewolf Day Five. (Ordo).

Game over. Wolves win. Nimrodel wins. Lovers lose. (You work it out...)

[Coppermirror]

Excellent narrations throughout the game, Nerwen!

Cursed Lover seems like a pretty fun role. I wonder if any other games have had one before?

[Nerwen]

As far as I know, this is the first.

[Farael]

Sigh... what heart break... my hopes were that a cursed lover would just be too unrealistic. I spent AlL GAME saying I didn't trust the Lover-Nimrodel completely... but I thought they would've had a non wolf role and I dunno... ugh.

Good game though! It was nice to get back into WW

[Rikae]

I knew it. :mad:

I came so close to voting for Lottie on my last day - in fact, I only voted Kitanna because I thought there was a chance that even if Lottie was the "wolf", that would trigger a win. And, Farael and Copper, why didn't my death make it obvious? I would have been the easiest lynch on the last day, but Lottie could have expected me to vote for her.

Great setup, Nerwen!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I knew it. :mad:

I came so close to voting for Lottie on my last day - in fact, I only voted Kitanna because I thought there was a chance that even if Lottie was the "wolf", that would trigger a win. And, Farael and Copper, why didn't my death make it obvious? I would have been the easiest lynch on the last day, but Lottie could have expected me to vote for her.

Great setup, Nerwen!

I was watching after I died, and Rikae, you terrified me with how right you were. :(

Good job, Lottie - and sorry I didn't get to use more of your coded hints, Agan. That early lynch of Amroth was good and bad - it got rid of the Ranger, sure, but it immediately put Agan on a clock.

[Coppermirror]

And, Farael and Copper, why didn't my death make it obvious? I would have been the easiest lynch on the last day, but Lottie could have expected me to vote for her.

Once I saw that you were the one who got night killed, I did get much more suspicious of Lottie, since you getting killed was what I would have expected from a Lottie-wolf. And the things you were saying the previous Day all seemed to hang together. But, I wasn't persuaded of it to the extent of being willing to vote Lottie without looking things through for both Lottie and Farael, and then I showed up really late...It's not as if Farael at #286 wasn't willing to consider that Lottie's role might have been different from what she claimed. There's a chance we would have worked it out if we'd both been around longer at the same time, but oh well. At least this way we got Lottie's long and elegant evil victory speech!

[McCaber]

That was the worst Day 1 I've had that I was completely right about. Good play on Lottie's end for sure!

So you did think Agan was the seer and tried to pick her off that night?

[Aganzir]

Good job, Lottie - and sorry I didn't get to use more of your coded hints, Agan.
It's not like we needed them that much - and after all, we've done it before. ;)

I actually did think about playing it chill on day 1 and not putting myself in the spotlight seeing how quiet it was, but in the end I couldn't be bothered - I wanted my fun and figured that even if people voted for me, I could have more fun. What I didn't count on was that a fifth of the village hadn't played with me before and would be less willing to overlook my antics with "Oh it's Agan!" Sorry about that, Shasta - I know I put you in a nasty spot!

I'm genuinely sorry about lynching Jêx, it wasn't fair but it was my best shot. I have the honour of never having been fenrised and I'm not about to start now.

And well done, Lottie! Butter wouldn't melt in your mouth! I originally thought Lottie was indeed the seer because of the way she was just a little bit too certain I was lying, and while I tried to make my imminent death implicate pretty much everybody on day 2, I made an extra effort to act like Lottie and I were wolf-on-wolfing although I think we pretty much decided she was going to die before the end of the day.

Shasta thought sally could be the seer who had dreamed of him but I didn't think she would have saved me from lynching if she knew I was lying and that she would have revealed if she'd had two wolves. We also had Cop pinned as Nimrodel because of how quick Jêx was to defend her while she kept a distance and brought up the tiniest little points against him - I would have given you her as my Nimrodel dream if it had come to that.

In any case, I consider the drastically dropped gifted credibility my greatest achievement in this game. ;) Although I can't deny the amusement of getting not one vote on day 2 despite being a known wolf and lynching the first person who voted for me instead!

I must confess, though, that after Rikae puzzled together what was going on, I almost wanted us to lose. Your razor sharp logic is a thing of beauty.

Thanks for the game, Nerwen! I enjoyed it a lot, and it's waay too long since I was last a wolf.

[Loslote]

So you did think Agan was the seer and tried to pick her off that night?

I had actually assumed that I was going to die at the end of the Day, taking someone down with me as a revenge kill, like I've seen happen to other Lovers in games past...but instead I became a Cursed Werebear. I knew that I couldn't last too long as a werebear without someone realizing that Nimrodel was probably evil, so I decided I couldn't take the chance of Agan actually being the Seer who had dreamed of me. Besides, even if she was a wolf, that worked for me - I could keep people off Nimrodel's trail as long as possible. And I enjoyed the fact that I could do my best to kill everyone who'd voted for Tar. :p Of course, I was Turned that Night, and never even got a chance to pm with my new packmates before they were both dead, which actually worked out in my favor anyway, since of course Nimrodel would have been lynched if it was obvious she was a werebear, and the way it worked out, I could argue that someone else had been Turned instead. I still can't believe I survived - I was convinced several times this game that I was for sure about to die, and Rikae kept being so spot-on it was spooky!

As it turns out, though, I hadn't been consciously hinting to the wolves that I was Cursed - but I probably did slip and say "cursed before" because I was cursed this game, so, good catch! ;)

[Loslote]

Oh! And why did you wolves kill Boro first thing? I never did figure that one out.

[Galadriel55]

Oh man! :eek: This is one epic game! Like, historical epic.

Nerwen, great concept! Finding out about all the secret stuff was just as exciting as catching up with the game! All the twists and turns are like a separate storyline.

Kudos sally! You've ousted, well, both wolves - Shasta by dream and Agan for the false reveal. Shame your dream ordos weren't 100% wolf-proof, though.

Lottie! I was debating whether I should say "man, Lottie, you rock" or "man, Lottie, you're crazy". I decided to go with both. You rock. That was crazy.

Nice try, village! I think a special mention should go to Rikae. When you were unraveling the Nightly secrets I was reading the thread like the finale of a mystery novel. The question of people's roles, combined with all of the set-up's secrecy... ahhhh. But getting all of that stuff right? Damn.

Agan, you slippery thing! Who knows how long you would have lasted if it wasn't for Nerdanel/Nimrodel? ;)

It was a brilliant game to follow, and I wish I could play. Well done everyone!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oh! And why did you wolves kill Boro first thing? I never did figure that one out.

We thought he was the Cursed.

[Aganzir]

As it turns out, though, I hadn't been consciously hinting to the wolves that I was Cursed - but I probably did slip and say "cursed before" because I was cursed this game, so, good catch! ;)
I was wondering about that post but figured it could go either way so I didn't chase it further. There was a game ages ago (god that would probably be close to ten years now) where Nogrod was the seer (for the first time, I think) and wanted to lynch wolf!Roa without revealing, so he latched onto her slip "I've never been a wolf before". She claimed it wasn't a slip though, but perfectly grammatical.

Agan, you slippery thing! Who knows how long you would have lasted if it wasn't for Nerdanel/Nimrodel? ;)
Till the very end, of course. ;) If Lottie had killed someone else the night we killed her, we would probably have won before the end of the day, seer or no seer.

We thought he was the Cursed.
Yeah. Basically it went like this:
*deadline*
S: I feel Boro might be the cursed.
A: Do you know I thought the same!
S: Let's look at everyone before sending in his name though.
A: Yeah let's do that although we might as well kill him.
*half an hour before deadline*
Nerwen: Sooo who are you two going to kill?

I was curious to see what people made of it, even if it would have been more sensible by far to kill someone who left a false trail.