Werewolf CXII - Dueling Wizards III - The Living Thread

[Nogrod]

What are you (Lommy & Legate) talking about the immediate DL? Isn't in 1 hour and 40 minutes from now, not 40 minutes from now?

[Nogrod]

I need to think some more about this Dead Thread situation. Can we make it work?
Nope.

not less than two hours before the deadlineTwenty minutes ago you talked about an hour? So over 1½ hours, right?

[Thinlómien]

What are you (Lommy & Legate) talking about the immediate DL? Isn't in 1 hour and 40 minutes from now, not 40 minutes from now?Yes I messed that up in an earlier post. You're right. It's 3am Finnish time.

I'm gonna vote now, and I became very unsure about Zil/Nerwen, so:

++Eönwe

if you're lynched we will remember your dead thread plans and continue to discuss them!

Good night kids, and remember to avoid cross-voting! We don't want a tie!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

What are you (Lommy & Legate) talking about the immediate DL? Isn't in 1 hour and 40 minutes from now, not 40 minutes from now?

Maybe for you sir, who are going to go to sleep at 3 AM as usual ;) I would like to vote soon.

(x-ed with everyone since the quoted post)

[Nerwen]

Hang on, where's this "Eonwe is different toDay = wolf" thing come from? *Is* he different?:confused:

[Mithalwen]

I am. A bit creeped by Loslote agreeing with me but my likeliest vote is Inzil for the reasons I gave earlier. However I am not sure I like Eonwe being so bossy over the dead vote. Can anyone reassure me there is no way wolves could bend a preagreed system to their advantage should death stymy their usual communication?

[Nogrod]

I do think the Boro - Lottie cahoots in the end of D1 is a bit of a stretch, but one of them being either the EW or a Wolf is not that far off.

Boro has acted weirdly either just having fun, wishing to play in the Dead thread, sporting as the EW / Wolf or plain counting that being too reckless would in the end stop us from actually lynching him (that there would be enough people not to vote him in the end).

Lottie and Inzil have both been on top of things early D1 on which could be just dedication to the game and taking it seriously (just wishing to know the rules well and giving them and different scenarios a lot of thought beforehand).

Lottie I could see advocating a no-lynch as a baddie just to be on a safe side herself while making show-off -moves near the DL to underline her daring (aka. not having a baddie-role). Zil goes to and fro a bit like Legate but feels a bit less genuine.

Eönwe flip-flops like Lommy of the old times first advocating lynch: "no lynch is a free ride for the wolves" and then making a "Legate 180" and suggesting a no-lynch plan. But then being around ten minutes before the DL he doesn't do anything to affect the vote - so drawing himself away from the issue and not like trying to push for the no-lynch - like he was happy about it?

Okay. Those are probably my top suspects at the moment.

[Boromir88]

I'm tempted to give you the benefit of doubt (because why would a baddie self-vote in such dire straits?), but this?? How exactly was my argument "really good and logical"? It was an absolutely standard "trying to be reasonable on Day1 but quite possibly failing because of lack of information" Day1 vote if you ask me. You constantly praising it is weird, and even weirder given it was against yourself. (Or maybe I just can't take a compliment. :p)


From your D1 vote post, from which I said that halfway convinced me to vote for myself:


Boro seems the most fishy (see: list) so he gets my vote.

I also think innocent Boro would be a reliable dead thread presence and a guilty Boro an entertaining one.

Good night!



An innocent me would make a reliable dead thread presense, a guilty me would be entertaining. I was pretty flattered, but also got to thinking that if I do get turned I could be a rather scary asset for the EW. Then I got to thinking I don't want to be an asset for any wizard. So if I'm going to be carefree, reckless, and completely random...it might as well be at a time early on where it only effects my own fortunes and not at a time that turns the tables against the GW.

Then there's the matter of who we want populating the Dead thread. I did make a rather interesting note of after D1 when I first said you've halfway convinced me to vote for myself, how many other people in making their D1 vote said basically the same "I'm voting Nerwen because if innocent she'd be a good dead innocent.

[Nerwen]

I am. A bit creeped by Loslote agreeing with me but my likeliest vote is Inzil for the reasons I gave earlier. However I am not sure I like Eonwe being so bossy over the dead vote. Can anyone reassure me there is no way wolves could bend a preagreed system to their advantage should death stymy their usual communication?
I think that's what we're all worried about.

Edit: x'd since Mithalwen..

[Lalaith]

Just to clarify, I think everyone has posted properly in game now except for Pervincia? (who has posted but not really participated)?
Right, like the rest of the Europeans I need to vote soon.
I would like to hear more from Shasta and Sally.
So, I would add Lommy at the moment to the list of people I feel ok with. Nogs I could go either way. This new Eonwe bandwaggon I'm not sure about. I'm not so convinced by this "he was turned because he was trusted yesterday" argument, partly because I for one thought his plan weird and cunning-and so-possibly-wolfy. Anyway, I'll leave that one for now.
Uncomfortable, in varying degrees, with Nerwen, Eomer, Boro (reasons stated elsewhere) - also Lottie and Zil - they seem helpful but I'm not feeling it.

[Pervinca Took]

I
Pervencia -
l

Here. But about to succumb to exhaustion.

Can someone tell me the voting deadline in Greenwich Mean Time?

[Lalaith]

Hey, Pervinca, welcome! Deadline is about 1 hour and 15 minutes from now. I am at GMT +1 and it's 23.48 where I am. Deadline is 1 am my time. Hope that helps.

You need to vote for someone you suspect and want to be lynched (if you like!) and highlight it so it comes up red (like I almost didn't remember to do last night :o) , with ++ before the name.

[Boromir88]

I am. A bit creeped by Loslote agreeing with me but my likeliest vote is Inzil for the reasons I gave earlier. However I am not sure I like Eonwe being so bossy over the dead vote. Can anyone reassure me there is no way wolves could bend a preagreed system to their advantage should death stymy their usual communication?

Well I think the only way is if there are more wolves in the Dead thread than innocents. The only time I recall the "using the empower vote for dead to send info" really blowing up is when the Living had a set plan and then randomly somehow before the DL changed those plans which left the Dead confused on what to do.

I am intrigued though by Nog's different use of the empower vote as a way for the Dead to put in their collective "advisor" role for the living.

[Nogrod]

Maybe for you sir, who are going to go to sleep at 3 AM as usual ;) I would like to vote soon.I was thinking about voting soonish as well and to go to bed...

Can someone tell me the voting deadline in Greenwich Mean Time?Exactly 1 hour and 7 minutes from the time stamp of this post.

[Lalaith]

only time I recall the "using the empower vote for dead to send info" really blowing up is when the Living had a set plan and then randomly somehow before the DL changed those plans which left the Dead confused on what to do.
Yes I remember that too. Weirdly I can't remember in which thread I was at the time, dead or alive, but I do remember chaos. :smokin:

[Eönwë]

I am. A bit creeped by Loslote agreeing with me but my likeliest vote is Inzil for the reasons I gave earlier. However I am not sure I like Eonwe being so bossy over the dead vote. Can anyone reassure me there is no way wolves could bend a preagreed system to their advantage should death stymy their usual communication?
To be honest, I'm not actually as dead-set on it as might appear from my posting. It's just that I seem to be the only one who is actually suggesting some kind of system. I'd hoped that by trying to fully detail it yesterDay, people might actually discuss it and work out what they think about it etc., but other than some vague agreement with the idea and Nogrod's very strong insistence that it's a bad idea, not many seem to have directly engaged with it. Oh well...

In any case, I just like the idea of having some kind of accepted system to fall back on. Obviously things might change over the course of the game, but I imagine Days will be (or at least on the surface appear to be until we actually know roles) relatively uneventful, and it will be good to have something to fall back on at least. And especially in these early Days when we know so little, it would be good to get some kind of steady stream of information (even if limited).


edit: x-ed since Pervinca. Also, that was meant to be 'some Days' (obviously some will be exciting!)

[Boromir88]

Yes I remember that too. Weirdly I can't remember in which thread I was at the time, dead or alive, but I do remember chaos. :smokin:

I was definitely in the living thread that time. :(

[Pervinca Took]

Do I have to give a reason for my vote?

[Nerwen]

So, I've been reading through Eonwe's posts, and I'm not seeing this alleged big shift in playing style between Day One and Day Two.

I'm not saying he couldn't be a baddie hiding behind his "Dead Thread" scheme, but if that's what he's doing he was doing it already.

Edit: x'd with Pervinca.

[Brinniel]

Attempting to catch up. You guys post too much. :p

[Nerwen]

Do I have to give a reason for my vote?
It is considered good form to do so.

Edit: x'd with Brinn.

[Lalaith]

Do I have to give a reason for my vote?
No, not if you don't want to. Most of us do though. Think of it like being on a jury!

[Nogrod]

One thing that still bothers me is Kuru's answer to my question - or the non-answer to it. Or to be more precise, whether it is something one should pay heed to or just shrug and walk away from.

So the question was, whether the EW could play so as to NOT turn someone on the Night1 before the game started, so that we'd play D1 without a single Wolf around, and then turn someone into a Wolf the next Night(2) and also using that Wolf the very same Night to Nightkill someone (aka. Morsul)?

Here's once more his answer (starting with an answer to another question), bolding mine.
While "everything" is assumed to have happened during a NIGHT phase, this does also implicitly create an order in which things occur. For example, Ranger Pick effectively has to come first in order for the skill to be used at all, then Evil actions, and so on and so forth.

And I'm afraid that is as much of an answer as I can give to Nog's question too.

The answer to that question is baked into the geography of the game.

I know it may be frustrating and seem like I don't understand the question, but I could not possibly answer that particular question. It is part of the game. The most definitive statement I can make is that the game is still going on right now. The Party has not won. Everyone can make of that what they will.

~*~

Do I have to give a reason for my vote?It would be appreciated. :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ok, here we go:

Nerwen - aside from the incident with Zil, there wasn't anything that would make me suspect her in any way. Therefore I am probably not going to vote her toDay.
Inziladun - okay, now upon re-reading, his reaction to Nerwen escalated in such a rapid way that it really makes my alarm bells ring. However, all his posting earlier was pretty normal, so I would prefer not to vote him solely on the basis of that one instance.
Loslote - now she has been bringing a lot of stuff to the front, and like I said, seems generally much more vocal than I am used to her being. I am really not into believing that she and Boro would have been two baddies from the start, although we have seen bolder packs. Objectively however, even though she's being vocal and bringing people up as possible suspects and all that, her behavior did not strike me as sinister by itself. I think there isn't enough to make me vote her now, either.
Boromir88 - okay, let's be frank. If there's anyone behaving outright suspiciously, it's him; and that is exactly the problem, because why. His responses regarding yesterDay were satisfactory to me by themselves, but that does not change his behavior as it is. He is probably the one I might consider the most worthy of my vote, just because I have no idea what to do with him and I don't want to give him a pass "because he's so strange that he possibly can't be guilty".
Shastanis Althreduin - is not around? I mean, appeared, but there have been no posts from him now, so... obviously leaving him be for now, although I certainly hope we won't have too many submarines here.
satansaloser2005 - hasn't yet posted enough for me to form an opinion, therefore probably not voting her now.
Eomer of the Rohirrim - he has been poking around. YesterDay, I got generally positive vibe from him, today, he was maybe throwing some suspicion, but also said things I can again agree with and which seem reasonable (like his attitude towards Boro). Not voting him, in any case.
Thinlómien - she has been very active now, and I can agree with many points she brings up. Most of all, I am not getting any feeling of false tones from her posts, which at the moment is probably the main thing I am operating on in regards to her. Therefore no reason to vote her toDay.
Lalaith - is really hard to read for me, I think I need to see more from her. So far, nothing that would make me vote for her, however.
Mithalwen - so far I am not getting any bad vibes from her. She participates in the discussion, I did not see anything that would look especially wolf-y. In any case nothing that would make me think she deserves a vote.
Eönwë - whereas I acknowledge the theory that he would have been a convenient Wolf pick last Night, I also acknowledge that it would have been perhaps too obvious (then again, nobody really thought about it until now), and upon re-read, I don't think his behavior is really different in some significant manner. I am probably not voting him toDay.
Nogrod - good to see him around, though most of his posting was about the Dead thread. I am certainly not voting him toDay, hopefully toMorrow there will also be more things to read from him.
Pervinca Took - probably absent?
Brinniel - also hasn't been around that much, although has posted earlier. Not enough to go with, however.

But that's about it. Will check who I x-posted with (probably a lot) and then finally vote and go to sleep.

EDIT: x-ed since my last post

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Will vote Loslote today, for reasons given previously. Her and Boro have been the only ones causing me raised eyebrows so far. Of course, it's always easier to find something suspicious in someone who's posting plenty.

++LOSLOTE

[satansaloser2005]

So all of the chatter about Dun bothers me more than Dun's own words. My intention at this point is to take a stab at someone in that conversation, though at this point, that's sort of everyone. :eek:

In less vague news, my gut reaction is to not trust Lottie.

As one more point, why are we talking about the EW potentially killing his or her own wolf? I fail to see how the wizard could benefit from this in any way. There is a wolf, and the wolf killed Morsul.

[Nogrod]

EDIT: Sorry, didn't make any intro here on what this is all about... Sorry. So this is on Kuru's (non)answer just a few more lines...



The "the Party has not won" made me think first that there was some major positive thing for the village going on - but then after some thought realized that there aren't that many plausible chances for that to be true.

But what looks like it is said there is, that it might have been possible that we had no Wolf on D1 - which would kind of negate all my work on the voting on D1. :(

Emphasizing the order in which things take place to make events happen looks quite like he is saying that like conjuring up a wolf happens first and then there is the act that the creatures do.

Or it could be read the other way - if these summonings come the last.

Or is he just toying with us and laughing to his dwarven beard whilst seeing us speculating over sich issues?

[Lalaith]

It's annoying, I know that my five main suspects can't possibly all be guilty, but I'm now too tired to go through all the permutations and patterns of who fits in with whom.

Nerwen/Eomer felt like a good fit to me earlier toDay - although that could just be because they were both around and chatting, Boro/Lottie has been mentioned by others and kind of makes sense - and Zil - well, I don't know. I would go with Nerwen again for the sake of consistency but she feels less guilty to me now - I quite like her defence of Eonwe, just now. I think I might go with Eomer instead.
I do suspect Boro quite strongly but I'm not going to vote for him because I suspect him of playing a bit of a scam which I will explain tomorrow if it's still relevant.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hang on, where's this "Eonwe is different toDay = wolf" thing come from? *Is* he different?:confused:
Well exactly, upon re-read I think he is not in any significant way.

Do I have to give a reason for my vote?
It would be better because then there is something where we can see why you voted the way you did. Anyway, welcome!

EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Nerwen]

The "the Party has not won" made me think first that there was some major positive thing for the village going on - but then after some thought realized that there aren't that many plausible chances for that to be true.

But what looks like it is said there is, that it might have been possible that we had no Wolf on D1 - which would kind of negate all my work on the voting on D1. :(

Emphasizing the order in which things take place to make events happen looks quite like he is saying that like conjuring up a wolf happens first and then there is the act that the creatures do.

Or it could be read the other way - if these summonings come the last.

Or is he just toying with us and laughing to his dwarven beard whilst seeing us speculating over sich issues?
I think you're obsessing too much over this. It could mean anything.

Edit: x'd since Nog.

[Lalaith]

Ok then.
++Eomer

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I wanted to have voted like twenty minutes ago, but I'm really not going to stick around until DL.

I will vote

++Boro

It would really anger me if I ignored him just because he was so standing out and then it turned out he was a baddie anyway.

Good Night, people.

EDIT: x-ed with Lalaith

[satansaloser2005]

Not again, you guys....

[Mithalwen]

++Inziladun Not about tne alleged slip but for his spectacularly unhelpful m negativity. Loslote can go on backburner with Eonwe. I don't know if he is evil or a control freak. But battery about to conk out

[Nogrod]

I don't see the argument that Eönwe has "changed" from D1.

But I do suspect him for a couple of reasons.

His actions late on D1 - he was strongly for no-lynch and was present at least ten minutes before the DL but stood back and just watched things roll the last ten minutes when most of the votes came like in reality he couldn't care less. Had he the best of the village in mind and a conviction that a no lynch is the best option he would have said something - or tried to use hiss own vote reach a draw, or anything? It looks fake then.

He has quite consistently tried to look helpful ironing out a rigid plan to negate the possibility of the Dead Thread's influence on the game - well okay, that was opiniated - but the fact that he has been busy to look very helpful while not committing to any suspicions or real help (finding the baddies and as such creating people who might feel bad about you and might vote for you) looks a bit suspicious.

[Eönwë]

I'm actually quite tempted to vote Boro, because if he's actually evil then, well, at least we've killed a wolf, and if not, and he has plans for the Dead Thread etc., then he'd probably be an asset to have there.

Zil and Lottie scare me a bit more though at the moment, but maybe that's just because I always worry that they're plotting something evil.

[Nogrod]

With half an hour to go, we are here: five votes to five different people.

Easy case for even just two baddies to control it.


Lommy -> Eönwe
Eomer -> Lottie
Lalaith -> Eomer
Legate -> Boro
Mith -> Inzil

I have my suspicions on Boro and Lottie as well (not exactly as a pack but one of them could be an evil person), but I might be most tempted to vote Eönwe.

[Nerwen]

With half an hour to go, we are here: five votes to five different people.

Easy case for even just two baddies to control it.


Lommy -> Eönwe
Eomer -> Lottie
Lalaith -> Eomer
Legate -> Boro
Mith -> Inzil

I have my suspicions on Boro and Lottie as well (not exactly as a pack but one of them could be an evil person), but I might be most tempted to vote Eönwe.
Even more fun- six votes for six people. The first was Zil's for me.

[Loslote]

I'm back and caught up. I'm probably going to vote either Zil or Eönwë, but since I suspect the both of them, I'm going to wait and try to avoid risking a tie.

EDIT: xed with Nerwen

[Nogrod]

Sorry Nerwen - I missed that one.


Okay.

If no one else moves, then I'll do my part to avoid the last minute frenzied (non)decisions - aka. panic-reactions.


++ Eönwe


The new tally:

Inzil -> Nerwen
Lommy -> Eönwe
Eomer -> Lottie
Lalaith -> Eomer
Legate -> Boro
Mith -> Inzil
Nogrod -> Eönwe 2

[Brinniel]

I am still pondering about the Dead Thread as I have no familiarity with it from previous games (at least that I can recall). I do agree this is a discussion that should be saved for toMorrow as there is less than thirty minutes before deadline. It does make me wonder if a baddie would attempt to focus on discussing the Dead Thread toDay as a way to distract the village.

If a wolf was turned last Night, I agree that Eonwe would've been a good pick. Boro might've been another pick if the baddies thought his attempt to self-sacrifice made him look innocent. But I don't think these are valid reasons alone to vote for someone and neither look suspicious enough to me right now to vote for one.

The escalation between Nerwen and Inzil is interesting. Maybe it is just an innocent-on-innocent spat, but I find it concerning. More seem to find Inzil's reaction worrisome, but I'm more worried about Nerwen. I didn't really see his comment as a slip-up and she seems to be pulling this idea out of hat and letting the rest of the village run with it.

As for yesterDay's votes, I think it's likely that a baddie is hiding among the no-lynch advocates. Lottie is one that still stands out to me from that and there are others to look at too, though I haven't had the time to do so.

EDIT: X-ed with Nogrod

[Brinniel]

Nerwen would be my vote preference toDay, but I don't want to spread the votes too thin..

[Eönwë]

People who I'm relatively happy with
Eomer - Hasn't really posted that much, but seems reasonable and talks sense when he does talk.
Lalaith - Same as Eomer
Nogrod - I mean, I still disagree with him (though he does raise some good points), but I don't think he's said anything that makes me particularly suspicious.
Nerwen - For now, nothing seems too bad. I'm not completely sure how I feel about Zil, but I don't find her suspicion suspicious.

Not quite in the clear
Legate
Lommy

Red Flags
Lottie - I really just can't shake the feeling that she's up to something. Also, I obviously can't tell whether I seem different toDay from yesterDay, but I did feel like she kind of threw that out there with not much evidence (which apparently convinced Lommy).
Zil - I do think he overreacted a bit to Nerwen's accusation.
Boro - All the weirdness.

Not sure how I feel
Mithalwen - I'd like to hear more of her thoughts on people.

Need to post more
Sally
Pervinca
Brinn
Shasta


I don't think I have time to go into more detail, but I'd like to look more at Legate and Lommy tomorrow if I'm still alive (well I suppose actually also if I'm dead, but that'll be on the other thread).

[Boromir88]

Nerwen would be my vote preference toDay, but I don't want to spread the votes too thin..

There is already a vote for Nerwen.

I'm afraid, as to my vote, I'm going to have to still be a wild card again today.

Here we go with another exciting flurry of votes.

[Brinniel]

There is already a vote for Nerwen.
So there is. I must've missed that.

[Eönwë]

Well, it looks like it's going to be another stressful last-minute voting period.

[Brinniel]

I did make the mistake of posting too much last minute yesterDay which resulted in me x-ing with too many other votes. So I will avoid making that mistake again.

++Nerwen

[Nerwen]

So, I'm probably going to vote Zil, not so much for the "slip" as for his reaction to my rather low-key probing, also for voting me with what frankly looks to me like forced suspicion.

My problem here is that I fear my judgement may be coloured by a.) the fact that it's me he's been voting and b.) the fact his playing style tends to be rather creepy regardless of role. Hmmn.
EDIT: x'd since my last post.

[Nogrod]

Red Flags
Lottie - I really just can't shake the feeling that she's up to something. Also, I obviously can't tell whether I seem different toDay from yesterDay, but I did feel like she kind of threw that out there with not much evidence (which apparently convinced Lommy).

Was it Lottie who stated this discussion of you changing and thence being suspicious? I think no one has time to go and find it out now, but you Eönwe might remember it as it concerns you.

I mean that's one suspicion I couldn't find anything but fabricated or at least far-fetched and would like to know who came up with it and how.

[Kuruharan]

I want to announce now that any votes that come in after I post the deadline will not count.

Be advised those who want to gamble at the last moment.

[Pervinca Took]

Inziladun

A gut feeling. I am very new to this game and extremely puzzled by everything. But slightly more puzzled by Inziladun.

[Nerwen]

Well then-

++zil

EDIT: x'd since Brinn.

[Eönwë]

Was it Lottie who stated this discussion of you changing and thence being suspicious? I think no one has time to go and find it out now, but you Eönwe might remember it as it concerns you.

I mean that's one suspicion I couldn't find anything but fabricated or at least far-fetched and would like to know who came up with it and how.

Yeah, it was in response to my EW-Lottie+Boro-wolf post.

[Loslote]

Was it Lottie who stated this discussion of you changing and thence being suspicious? I think no one has time to go and find it out now, but you Eönwe might remember it as it concerns you.

I mean that's one suspicion I couldn't find anything but fabricated or at least far-fetched and would like to know who came up with it and how.

Yeah, that was me, and I admitted that it was far-fetched, but it was what I saw and I wanted to go on the record as having seen it, if only because if I died before I could say it and he turned out to be evil I would definitely regret not having said something.

EDIT: xed since Nog

[satansaloser2005]

I want to announce now that any votes that come in after I post the deadline will not count.

Be advised those who want to gamble at the last moment.



Challenge accepted. *cracks knuckles*

[Kuruharan]

Challenge accepted. *cracks knuckles*

I knew I could count on you. :D

[Loslote]

++Zil

I would rather vote him over Eönwë anyway, and it looks like the votes are swinging that direction.

EDIT: xed since my last

[Nogrod]

Inzil -> Nerwen
Lommy -> Eönwe
Eomer -> Lottie
Lalaith -> Eomer
Legate -> Boro
Mith -> Inzil
Nogrod -> Eönwe 2
Brinn -> Nerwen 2
Pervinca -> Inzil 2
Nerwen -> Inzil 3
Lottie -> Inzil 4

Whatever it weill be, let's not make it a draw again.

Declare your voting beforehand, please. Otherwise we'll be very suspicious of you toMorrow if you come from behind the tree and vote to tie it at the last minute.


EDIT: X'd with Lottie's vote & updated the list.

[Brinniel]

Pervinca, make sure to add ++ in front of your vote to count.

[Boromir88]

Challenge accepted. *cracks knuckles*

Heh, thanks for the laugh :D

[Nogrod]

If people are okay with this result, then fine.

If not, speak up.

[Boromir88]

Foiled again. So be it.

++Inzil

[Eönwë]

++Inziladun

Just to make sure.

edit: x-ed with Boro

[Nogrod]

Be careful Boro if Pervinca's vote doesn't count. Don't make a tie, please.


EDIT: Heh, kind of unnecessary comment I see...

[Kuruharan]

The deadline has come.

Please stop posting.

Narration will follow shortly.

EDIT: For mandatory vote purposes I will count Pervinca Took's vote since it won't lend itself to a controversial outcome.

But please do put the ++ in front of the votes.

EDIT EDIT: Also in tomorrow's introduction narration I will include a list of the people who are in danger of mandatory vote expulsion so they can make sure and vote.

[Kuruharan]

~~~~~Our Tale~~~~~

Now that it had been conclusively proven that Kuru was right about there being a murderer on the loose, there was nothing else for it but to set down to the hard work of finding out who it was.

If only there was a forensics lab in this canyon. Alas, there was not.

One of the guests, who seemed to have given up the will to live, just lay on the guillotine and shouted, “Nilpaurion Felagund!" over and over again, with occasional pauses to shout advice to his comrades.

The other guests thought this a mite odd…but didn’t really pay much attention to it.

They had other fish to fry!

Mostly each other...

Suddenly, out of nowhere there was a definite suspect! Of course it was him! There could be no doubt!

They threw the suicidal one off the guillotine and tossed their convict on it and pulled the lever.

CLUNK!

There! Surely that problem was solved and Kuru would come rescue them in the morning.

~~~~~~~

It is now NIGHT 3. Those with NIGHTly business will no doubt commence it.

The Ordos sleep now.

Living
Nerwen
Loslote
Boromir88
Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Thinlómien
Lalaith
Legate of Amon Lanc
Mithalwen
Eönwë
Nogrod
Pervinca Took
Brinniel

The Dead
Morsul the Dark
Inziladun

[Kuruharan]

~~~~~Our Tale~~~~~

The NIGHT passed swiftly.

Those who slept did so fitfully.

There was a pervasive sense that they were all on the edge of another, strange world that might reach out and touch them at any time.

The dawn came, as it always does.

The group around the guillotine was a bit smaller this time.

A hunt turned up the corpse of Thinlómien.

Oh dear. This is getting serious.

~~
It is now DAY 3. You may all post now.

After doing my review, it turns out Sally is the only one in danger of the chop if she does not vote today.

Living
Nerwen
Loslote
Boromir88
Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Lalaith
Legate of Amon Lanc
Mithalwen
Eönwë
Nogrod
Pervinca Took
Brinniel

The Dead
Morsul the Dark
Inziladun
Thinlómien

[satansaloser2005]

Folks who instigated that temporary five (six?) way tie are in a lot of trouble....

Behold my unamused face. o_O

[Nerwen]

I will look over Lommy's posts if I have time. In the meantime, can we arrange for the Dead to tell us Zil's role? (Can we also agree learning the roles of Night-killed people is a waste of time?)

[Boromir88]

Well that was unfortunate.

So let's figure out this dead thread communication plan now...going through with it or not? And how?

[Eönwë]

Well, it looks like I won't have to look at Lommy's posting toDay after all...

A few thoughts:
1. The Zil vote seems a bit worryingly sudden.
2. However, I also think the early spreading out of the vote needs to be looked at more closely.
3. Let's have the Dead Thread discussion now, please.
4. On the topic of the Dead Thread, over the course of the Night, my suspicion of Nogroddue to his dismissal of the Dead Thread plan has returned. Not specifically his disagreement, but rather his attempt to discredit and derail it without offering any proper alternative (sure, it may be the case that the Dead should be the ones telling the Living what to do, but the Living are still the ones with the power of lynching, and they still need to be communicated with). For example, last Night, instead of either voting for himself (and being revealed) or not (thereby being found out), a B]Boro[/B]-wolf could now potentially try to justify not cooperating (in this case, cooperating being voting for himself for the Night reveal). I find it hard to believe that this possibility would not have occurred to Nog, which makes me suspect him.

Ok, it's very late and I'm very tired, so going to sleep now. I hope to wake up to some good discussion, village!

[Nerwen]

Well, Steve, here's your plan from yesterDay.

Just to clarify how the empowering thing would work (since there's been some discussion):

1. Let's assume we start with today's living as the options. First of all, we alphabetise the list (toDay is an even Day so it's in Z->A order). That gives us:
Thinlómien
Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005
Pervencia Took
Nogrod
Nerwen
Mithalwen
Loslote
Legate of Amon Lanc
Lalaith
Inziladun
Eönwë
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Brinniel
Boromir88


2. Now, if someone is selected from the first half of the names (which includes the person exactly in the middle), then the person is PREY (to use Kuru's terms), i.e., good, and if they are in the second half, they are a PREDATOR (also Kuru's term), i.e., evil. This gives us:

If the person is PREY:
Thinlómien
Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005
Pervencia Took
Nogrod
Nerwen
Mithalwen
Loslote

If the person is a PREDATOR:
Legate of Amon Lanc
Lalaith
Inziladun
Eönwë
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Brinniel
Boromir88


3. Then, based on whether the Target (i.e. the person whose role was found out the Night before) is innocent or guilty, someone who is a known innocent (i.e. someone genuinely found out to be an innocent, or if no such person appears, a Night kill, e.g. Morsul - I assume the Dead Thread can come up with a system, but my suggestion would be to cycle through those lynched and definitively proven to be innocent) picks which of the people in the appropriate PREDATOR or PREY list is voted.

Of course, if we want to be particularly careful about the list (and possibly EW attempts at manipulation), we could, for example, after Day 4 (since this will only start on Day 3), decide to use a different ordering, e.g. Kuru's narration order (forwards one day, backwards the next), and so on.

edit: x-ed since my last.

As I said, I think we should stipulate that the Dead should check lynchees only (except in the case of a Hunter kill). The idea being floated about yesterDay that the wolves might kill one of their own just to have a wolf in the Dead Thread... well, it could happen as a sort of extreme outlier, but I feel that planning around such a possibility means that half the information we get from the Dead will be effectively useless. What do other people think?

[satansaloser2005]

Quoting is being problematic from my phone, but I agree with your above post, Nerwen. The idea of the villain(s) doing that is hard to swallow. Even Phantom wouldn't consider such a gambit. :smokin:

Hang on. Phantom's not secretly playing, is he?!

[Nerwen]

Quoting is being problematic from my phone, but I agree with your above post, Nerwen. The idea of the villain(s) doing that is hard to swallow. Even Phantom wouldn't consider such a gambit. :smokin:

Hang on. Phantom's not secretly playing, is he?!
Actually you are talking to someone who literally did try such a gambit once, in another game with special rules- but we were in desperate straits, and the sacrificial wolf was pretty much on the block anyway. I don't see that applying here, at least not yet.

[satansaloser2005]

Precisely.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Y'all, I am very sorry for missing yesterday. I've been horrendously sick. :(

Will catch up and post stuff soon, promise.

[Nerwen]

Y'all, I am very sorry for missing yesterday. I've been horrendously sick. :(

Will catch up and post stuff soon, promise.
My jewel!:(

[Shastanis Althreduin]

So I've caught up as far as reading the thread. I'll need to really try and dig in tomorrow, but without further ado, my three suspects are -

Zil, Lommy, and Sally.

Huh. Well that won't do.

Back to the drawing board, I suppose - although I do feel like Sally is sorta evil, I still need to go back and figure out why I thought that.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

So all of the chatter about Dun bothers me more than Dun's own words. My intention at this point is to take a stab at someone in that conversation, though at this point, that's sort of everyone. :eek:

In less vague news, my gut reaction is to not trust Lottie.

As one more point, why are we talking about the EW potentially killing his or her own wolf? I fail to see how the wizard could benefit from this in any way. There is a wolf, and the wolf killed Morsul.



I think it was this post, because I was leaning evil on Inzil. I was thinking Lommy and he were linked together, though, so for her to be dead last night is strange to me, so now I don't know. Sally's post about "all y'all are in trouble" also dinged me a bit, though. I'm not sold, but I'm still leaning evil. (Sorry, dear.)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

My jewel!:(

I'll try not to get you sick as well, moon of my life.

[Mithalwen]

Folks who instigated that temporary five (six?) way tie are in a lot of trouble....

Behold my unamused face. o_O

At least they voted, showed their colours and left an audit trail. But there is a point in this game when what you don't do takes on as least as much significance as what you do. Can't help thinking the range would be more an issue for a servant of evil than someone with genuine (though possibly misplaced) suspicion.

[Brinniel]

On the Dead Thread...

Based on the rules, I'm assuming we will find out who received the empowerment vote at the end of each Day regardless of whether that empowerment vote actually has an impact on the lynch. Am I correct on this?

Eonwe, now that I'm starting to wrap my head around your strategy, while I do like where you're going with it, I see flaws. For one thing, last Night there were two in the Dead Thread which means they could vote to reveal a role. How do we know for sure that they cooperated and allowed this to happen? And if they did, how do we know if the role revealed was Morsul or Inzil? The theory of the EW killing their own wolf seems out there, yet the mere fact that it was discussed yesterDay may have prompted last Night's vote to go towards Morsul.

Then, based on whether the Target (i.e. the person whose role was found out the Night before) is innocent or guilty, someone who is a known innocent (i.e. someone genuinely found out to be an innocent, or if no such person appears, a Night kill, e.g. Morsul - I assume the Dead Thread can come up with a system, but my suggestion would be to cycle through those lynched and definitively proven to be innocent) picks which of the people in the appropriate PREDATOR or PREY list is voted.
The list you are using is an interesting idea as a way for the dead to communicate to the living while still having some flexibility in their votes, but this here takes away that flexibility. You are assuming just because a known innocent can be trusted, that they will make good decisions. The truth is a known innocent can still be very misguided. For that reason, I do not like the idea of having one person decide the empowerment vote.

A strategy is needed, I agree. My main concern is that in our attempt to create a communication system with the dead, we will end up causing miscommunication and even more confusion. After all, while we can direct the Dead Thread and hope for the best, there's really no way to tell for sure if they are actually following the directions at any given time.

[Brinniel]

Unlike Sally, I'm not quite as concerned about the early voters who spread their votes out. While it's no good to spread the votes out too thin, they all voted early enough for others to step in and prevent another tie.

The last few bandwagon votes for Inzil are more concerning and may require a further look.

But I will leave that for another time as it is late and I need sleep.

[Nerwen]

Just reading through previous Days and thought I'd comment on this-
One thing that still bothers me is Kuru's answer to my question - or the non-answer to it. Or to be more precise, whether it is something one should pay heed to or just shrug and walk away from.

So the question was, whether the EW could play so as to NOT turn someone on the Night1 before the game started, so that we'd play D1 without a single Wolf around, and then turn someone into a Wolf the next Night(2) and also using that Wolf the very same Night to Nightkill someone (aka. Morsul)?

Here's once more his answer (starting with an answer to another question), bolding mine.

Originally Posted by KuruLord
While "everything" is assumed to have happened during a NIGHT phase, this does also implicitly create an order in which things occur. For example, Ranger Pick effectively has to come first in order for the skill to be used at all, then Evil actions, and so on and so forth.

And I'm afraid that is as much of an answer as I can give to Nog's question too.

The answer to that question is baked into the geography of the game.

I know it may be frustrating and seem like I don't understand the question, but I could not possibly answer that particular question. It is part of the game. The most definitive statement I can make is that the game is still going on right now. The Party has not won. Everyone can make of that what they will.
The enigmatic nature of this is troubling. However-

This would not be possible. The Evil Wizard couldn't create and then kill that wolf in the same NIGHT. If the Evil Wizard tried something like this the victim would go to the Dead Thread as an Ordo.

That wouldn't preclude killing that wolf on a subsequent NIGHT, but it wouldn't work to do it on the same NIGHT.
This, although Kuru misinterpreted what you were asking, seems to make it pretty clear that the new wolf doesn't assume the role until the Night is over. Which makes sense, given that-

The Ranger can protect players from being killed or turned during the NIGHT phase.
and
If the Good Wizard and Evil Wizard target the same person, nothing happens.

You see there is more than one way a conversion can fail, depending on what else happens during the Night, so I don't think it would make sense for the EW to be able to say, "Aha, I have just created my first minion- let the slaughter commence! Mwa-ha-ha!" The exception, perhaps, might be in the case that the EW took a complete shot in the dark and requested that Morsul be killed IF [Prospective Wolf #1] were to be turned successfully. Maybe the rules allow that and that's why Kuru wouldn't confirm that it 100% couldn't happen. But it seems far-fetched.
Edit:x'd with 2 Brinns.

[Eönwë]

As I said, I think we should stipulate that the Dead should check lynchees only (except in the case of a Hunter kill). The idea being floated about yesterDay that the wolves might kill one of their own just to have a wolf in the Dead Thread... well, it could happen as a sort of extreme outlier, but I feel that planning around such a possibility means that half the information we get from the Dead will be effectively useless. What do other people think?
Hey could you tell me where you mentioned this before? I know I was pushing for it quite heavily, but I don't remember getting any support on the issue:

Also, just to clarify the other part, the idea was that the Target would be the non-Night-killed-person in the Dead Thread who has been there the longest and has not had their role revealed should be picked.

I say non-Night-killed because while it's an interesting idea, it seems pretty crazy to imagine the EW Night-killing one of their own, and even if they did, it seems even more unlikely that it could happen more than once (once they're down to non-replenishable wolves), and one wouldn't screw up the system enough to make much a difference.


Eönwë -

1) good. That makes sense.

2) let's not debate this now when the dl is in an hour and a bit but rather during the first half of toMorrow.

Yes, but for my second post what I was getting at was that for toNight, both people should vote for toDay's lynchee (so we don't have a wasted Night on that thread).

[Nerwen]

Hey could you tell me where you mentioned this before? I know I was pushing for it quite heavily, but I don't remember getting any support on the issue:Well, I said it in the previous post... but
I actually thought I'd mentioned yesterDay too, only I can't find any such post.:confused:

[Nogrod]

My main concern is that in our attempt to create a communication system with the dead, we will end up causing miscommunication and even more confusion. After all, while we can direct the Dead Thread and hope for the best, there's really no way to tell for sure if they are actually following the directions at any given time.Word.

We can never be quite sure if we interpret the dead-empowerment the right way - and the whole point of any kind of major plan is to gain REAL knowledge, not just "it might mean x" (which is the accuracy of our own deductions here). But a rigid system comes with the expense of the Dead-thread becoming an automaton - while still not helping us in any reasonable way.

So the costs far outweight the benefits.

That said, after thinking about it a little I'm actually softening my critique of the plan - or admitting my own guidelines (which I suggested yesterDay) not being as good as I thought them to be.

The problem I didn't quite realize yesterDay is, that the Dead have less to go on with in this kind of a special game because like us on D1 and 2 they'll also struggle with the fact that there aren't that many special roles yet aka. there's less to "read" or to make inferences from.

But even with the Dead being a little less powerful I kind of thought them to be yesterDay, I'd still say it is too little gain from trying to tie the hands of the Dead-thread (and even ours) - and unwise from us the Living as it would create chances for the evil side to hide their voting in their possibly totally reasonable arguments on an interpretation of the empowerment vote that benefits their cause.

For example, last Night, instead of either voting for himself (and being revealed) or not (thereby being found out), a B]Boro[/B]-wolf could now potentially try to justify not cooperating (in this case, cooperating being voting for himself for the Night reveal). I find it hard to believe that this possibility would not have occurred to NogSorry, but I have no clue whatsoever you are talking about here. So that (probably) hasn't occurred to me at all - or at least I don't understand what you are talking about.

I mean Boro is alive and thus does not vote anything on Nights - nobody votes on Nights, right? If you mean that Boro-wolf would have made a suicide on D1 and then decided not to co-operate in the Dead-thread then what's the problem - he'd be overpowered in no time and his actions would actually target him there etc.

his attempt to discredit and derail it without offering any proper alternativeWrong. I did offer an alternative. Actually a viable and most reasonable one.

Let the Dead play as hard as they can and battle it out there with their extra knowledge and try to win this game for us by affecting the lynches and trying to signal us whom they think is the most suspicious person by empowering a vote to someone they think should be lynched.

Ok. I'm in a hurry right now, but I'll be back later...

[Eönwë]

Based on the rules, I'm assuming we will find out who received the empowerment vote at the end of each Day regardless of whether that empowerment vote actually has an impact on the lynch. Am I correct on this? I really hope so.
Eonwe, now that I'm starting to wrap my head around your strategy, while I do like where you're going with it, I see flaws. For one thing, last Night there were two in the Dead Thread which means they could vote to reveal a role. How do we know for sure that they cooperated and allowed this to happen? And if they did, how do we know if the role revealed was Morsul or Inzil? The theory of the EW killing their own wolf seems out there, yet the mere fact that it was discussed yesterDay may have prompted last Night's vote to go towards Morsul.
Well, that's why I was pushing so hard yesterDay for the village to agree to the plan (see the posts I quoted in my last post). If we'd all agreed on the Dead Thread voting for Inziladun, then him not self-voting would out him as a wolf anyway. That's why I was getting a bit frustrated yesterDay at people either ignoring the discussion, flat-out rejecting the idea, or saying we should wait until toDay to discuss it. And I suspect that while some of that was for practical/legitimate/non-evil reasons, there is at least one evil person hiding in that category.

For now, we can only hope that the two did adhere to the plan. If not, then I imagine if Nog is a wolf/EW, he's feeling very proud of himself right around now.

The list you are using is an interesting idea as a way for the dead to communicate to the living while still having some flexibility in their votes, but this here takes away that flexibility. You are assuming just because a known innocent can be trusted, that they will make good decisions. The truth is a known innocent can still be very misguided. For that reason, I do not like the idea of having one person decide the empowerment vote.
You're right, that's a good point. Maybe they could have their own pseudo-vote (known wolves excluded obviously) and then assign a known innocent to be a tie-breaker, and then all vote for whoever won that? Something like that anyway.

A strategy is needed, I agree. My main concern is that in our attempt to create a communication system with the dead, we will end up causing miscommunication and even more confusion. After all, while we can direct the Dead Thread and hope for the best, there's really no way to tell for sure if they are actually following the directions at any given time.
Two things I do agree withNogrod about are:
1. We should take anything from the Dead Thread with a pinch of salt. Ultimately, we have no idea what's going on there, even if we can hope that they're trying to help us.
2. Later on, the needs of the game might change, and we shouldn't force ourselves (or the Dead Thread) to stick to a rigid plan every Day/Night.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try early on.


Also, one final thing to clear up: In my first post toDay, I said Boro-wolf. Of course I meant a Zil-wolf. I was very tired when I posted that...

I'll be back later.


edit: x-posted with Brinn and Nogrod

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, first things first. I think we should make sure to figure out the communication with Dead Thread ASAP now, otherwise they won't have even remote chance to communicating anything. As soon as we can get that off the table, we can focus more on Lommy's death and on the lynch yesterDay.

As I said, I think we should stipulate that the Dead should check lynchees only (except in the case of a Hunter kill). The idea being floated about yesterDay that the wolves might kill one of their own just to have a wolf in the Dead Thread... well, it could happen as a sort of extreme outlier, but I feel that planning around such a possibility means that half the information we get from the Dead will be effectively useless. What do other people think?
I don't think it is very likely either. The only thing that might be a problem, and that is actually an important point, what Brinn said:
Eonwe, now that I'm starting to wrap my head around your strategy, while I do like where you're going with it, I see flaws. For one thing, last Night there were two in the Dead Thread which means they could vote to reveal a role. How do we know for sure that they cooperated and allowed this to happen? And if they did, how do we know if the role revealed was Morsul or Inzil? The theory of the EW killing their own wolf seems out there, yet the mere fact that it was discussed yesterDay may have prompted last Night's vote to go towards Morsul.
That's a valid note. If we go with the option of a list for communicating, I think it should be enough if the list has some built-in failsafes, including a "none of the above" option.

In any case, the "two-answer list" such as the one that has been quoted from yesterDay wouldn't do, in my opinion. On top of everything, if potential Wolves on the Dead Thread managed to mess up with the vote, we would end up with completely the opposite information really easily (even though that's always a risk).

In any case, if I am thinking of a list, I say we should at least modify it to say, for instance, "none of the above". Ideally, split it into more parts, which should not be that big of a deal now (it would become more difficult once the Dead thread starts to fill up, but at least for toDay, I think that should work. We can always modify the lists later). In other words, we should bear in mind the possibilities of the Dead thread working differently than we want them to, take into account possible "civic disobedience" of the Dead thread and what have you.

So if, using Eönwë's list modified for toDay, it was:
Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005
Pervinca Took
Nogrod
Nerwen
Mithalwen
Loslote
Legate of Amon Lanc
Lalaith
Eönwë
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Brinniel
Boromir88
Then, if we wanted to be super-sure and wanted to take into account the possibility that they somehow revealed Morsul instead of Inzil, we could make it something like first three - Inzil is Prey, 4.-6. - Inzil is Predator, 7.-8. - Morsul is Prey, 9.-10. - Morsul is Predator, 11.-13. none of the above. (These remaining numbers could be somehow modified still if we think of some more specific "none of the above".) Btw the number now is such that it is harder to divide, but I thought since the Morsul option is really there rather "just to be sure", I gave it only range of two people and range of three to Inzil. (We could also cut from the last option, but this is as even as possible and in any case no option should have just one person there.)

It's a draft, but I think it could work like that. At least for toDay. Again, our main goal should be to avoid chaos among the Dead.

I will leave this here to look at, and meanwhile I will try to look at what can be learned from Lommy's death, and hopefully also the voting yesterDay.

EDIT: x-ed with Nerwen, Nogrod and Eönwë

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Wrong. I did offer an alternative. Actually a viable and most reasonable one.

Let the Dead play as hard as they can and battle it out there with their extra knowledge and try to win this game for us by affecting the lynches and trying to signal us whom they think is the most suspicious person by empowering a vote to someone they think should be lynched.

Okay, so in other words, keep the dead "as if they were still alive" by "extending their right to vote", so to say? That, however, offers as much room for failure - especially since they have to boil all their votes down into one. As in, it is just enough if Dead 1 wants to empowere person X because the person they are voting for is clearly a Wolf, Dead 2 thinks the same about person Y, Dead 3 thinks the same about person Z and you have a tie, or somesuch. (Or Dead 1 is voting person X, Dead 2 is voting person Y, and meanwhile Dead 3, who is a Wolf, waits and then empowers person Y who is their packmate.)

[Eönwë]

Sorry, but I have no clue whatsoever you are talking about here. So that (probably) hasn't occurred to me at all - or at least I don't understand what you are talking about.

I mean Boro is alive and thus does not vote anything on Nights - nobody votes on Nights, right? If you mean that Boro-wolf would have made a suicide on D1 and then decided not to co-operate in the Dead-thread then what's the problem - he'd be overpowered in no time and his actions would actually target him there etc.
Sorry, as I said in my last post, I meant Zil there. I think after talking about all the havoc a potential D1-lynch-Boro-wolf could wreak in the Dead Thread, I just kind of had it in my head that way. What I meant was this:

If we'd clearly agreed to the plan to vote for the non-lynchee who's been in the Dead Thread the longest (at least in these early Days when no-one knows anything and in lieu of any clear alternative), then the dead are duty-bound to find out Zil's role. In this case, he's a wolf and cooperates, he's a confirmed wolf; if he doesn't cooperate, then clearly he doesn't have the best interests of the village at heart and should be presumed to be a wolf. If he's innocent then he cooperates and is confirmed innocent.
By introducing doubt, now a wolfziladun has an excuse for not cooperating of the 'Oh, but we never actually agreed to vote for me' variety, which gives non-cooperation something to hide behind.
So we have two options for how toDay looks in the Dead Thread:

The plan has been carried out: We have one known role (Zil), and two presumed innocents. Of course, one wolf could be hiding in the Night kills, but it's super-unlikely that the EW would sacrifice two. I don't want to say too much about possibilities and possible deductions etc., but this should give the Dead Thread at least a reasonable chance of knowing what's going on, even if they can't completely communicate with us. As I've said earlier, the plan was not meant to be 100% permanent, but mostly a good solid starting point.
Plan hasn't been carried out: They either have no knowledge at all, or they know have one known (Morsul), one presumed innocent (Lommy) and one true unknown (Zil)



Wrong. I did offer an alternative. Actually a viable and most reasonable one.

Let the Dead play as hard as they can and battle it out there with their extra knowledge and try to win this game for us by affecting the lynches and trying to signal us whom they think is the most suspicious person by empowering a vote to someone they think should be lynched.
Sounds good, doesn't work (if we're going to go for such rhetoric at this point).

But seriously, the problem is that while this sounds reasonable, and is probably what we should do later on in the game, what does it actually mean for the early Days? If we have a fixed plan (and especially for the Night-voting), it means that either innocents cooperate to prove their innocence, or wolves either cooperate or are forced to out themselves by not cooperating, as discussed with Zil above.

That is a practical (and practicable) plan, while saying 'let them do the best they can by telling us who they think is guilty' has two problems. First of all, it means we in the Living Thread are a lot less likely to get the hard facts (or at least what is being transmitted about the hard facts) about who was innocent or guilty, which at this point is pretty much the only useful information we can get. Secondly, it muddies the waters, and gives the baddies more things to hide behind (and options to create draws in the voting).

Yes, later on, it might be good, but now such a plan is not really a plan, and to say otherwise seems a bit disingenuous.


edit: x-ed since my last post.

[Eönwë]

Oh, and surely empowering the most suspicious person could cause problems?

[Nerwen]

Oh, and surely empowering the most suspicious person could cause problems?
I think he must mean empowering a vote *for* the most suspicious person.

[Eönwë]

Well, technically, Legate, given that toDay is an odd Day, it should be an A-Z list :p.

Then, if we wanted to be super-sure and wanted to take into account the possibility that they somehow revealed Morsul instead of Inzil, we could make it something like first three - Inzil is Prey, 4.-6. - Inzil is Predator, 7.-8. - Morsul is Prey, 9.-10. - Morsul is Predator, 11.-13. none of the above. (These remaining numbers could be somehow modified still if we think of some more specific "none of the above".) Btw the number now is such that it is harder to divide, but I thought since the Morsul option is really there rather "just to be sure", I gave it only range of two people and range of three to Inzil. (We could also cut from the last option, but this is as even as possible and in any case no option should have just one person there.)
I reckon that toDay, while not idea, we will probably need to go for something like this. This doesn't give many options for each possibility, but we're early on enough in the game that hopefully giving the extra vote to a wolf/EW shouldn't matter too much.

In which case, we could have something like:

Voted Zil, Zil was PREY
Boromir88
Brinniel
Eomer of the Rohirrim

Voted Zil, Zil was PREDATOR
Eönwë
Lalaith

Voted Morsul, Morsul was PREY
Legate of Amon Lanc
Loslote

Voted Morsul, Morsul was PREDATOR
Mithalwen
Nerwen

Tie, each voted the other
Nogrod
Pervinca Took

Tie, each voted themself
satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin

[Eönwë]

I think he must mean empowering a vote *for* the most suspicious person.
Oh, that makes a lot more sense. :o Sorry Nog.

[Eönwë]

Though that does come with the problems that:

1. Everyone in the Dead Thread needs to be around around the deadline.
2. People would need to start voting earlier on the Living Thread so the Dead have time to discuss who is the best option out of those who have votes. I mean, I suppose they could agree to some kind of ranking, but I can imagine many ways in which that could get messed up.

Ok, actually going now. Will be back later in the Day.

[Nerwen]

Though that does come with the problems that:

1. Everyone in the Dead Thread needs to be around around the deadline.
2. People would need to start voting earlier on the Living Thread so the Dead have time to discuss who is the best option out of those who have votes. I mean, I suppose they could agree to some kind of ranking, but I can imagine many ways in which that could get messed up.

Ok, actually going now. Will be back later in the Day.
Also, let's try to not spread the votes out so much this time.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

2. People would need to start voting earlier on the Living Thread so the Dead have time to discuss who is the best option out of those who have votes. I mean, I suppose they could agree to some kind of ranking, but I can imagine many ways in which that could get messed up.

That was the main thing in the last Dead thread! That's why it should be clear asap, and not changed. In the previous game, some of us had to vote waaay before DL, while the Living were merrily chatting about weather, and then somebody remembered they should give us a list, so they gave us one, so we were "finally, a list! Now we can vote!" And right after we voted, the Living said "hey, wait a second, we came up even with a better list! How about instead we do it like this!" And then our votes which had been already cast suddenly meant something completely different than they did before. So that's why it is really important we sort this out.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That said, I think it is better to include the "none of the above/something else" option rather than the "they voted each other/they voted themselves" option, because does that really tell us anything? You could sum them up under the same thing, at least. "There was a tie". And leave the last part for "none of the above". I mean, I can't imagine what the "none of the above" would be, but. (Well maybe it could be "We are not going to run according to your schemes and we're going to do our own stuff like Nog suggests?" That would also solve that debate.)

Anyway I am actually going to use the nice weather here IRL and take tortoises out for a pasture (yes, you heard right), but I should be back in not such a long time. Try to figure out something with the Dead debate.

[Lalaith]

That said, I think it is better to include the "none of the above/something else" option rather than the "they voted each other/they voted themselves" option, because does that really tell us anything?
I agree. I don't want to chop us all up into little portions of two villagers the way Eonwe is now suggesting, it could in theory force the Dead to choose between empowering the wicked and the stupid.
I'm ok with a list and I think that the Dead (at least the innocents) would try to vote for Zil.
So I think we should be sectioned into three ways, Zil bad, Zil good, none of the above.That way the Dead have plenty of choice.

[Lalaith]

I'm going out and will be back later with lots of thoughts...but I thought I'd get my views on the Dead out there asap as I agree we need early agreement.
Also I have two questions, which may be for Kuru alone to answer as I can't find it in the Rules.
That is because the ideas that I have are based on two assumptions - one is that the Wizards cannot continue making roles once they are in the Dead Thread. The other is that a win for wolves and EW is the same as it is in an ordinary game, ie live wolves have to outnumber live villagers.
Are both my assumptions correct?

[Nerwen]

I agree. I don't want to chop us all up into little portions of two villagers the way Eonwe is now suggesting, it could in theory force the Dead to choose between empowering the wicked and the stupid.
I'm ok with a list and I think that the Dead (at least the innocents) would try to vote for Zil.
So I think we should be sectioned into three ways, Zil bad, Zil good, none of the above.That way the Dead have plenty of choice.
I think that might be better. After all, in the very unlikely event that Morsul was a wolf, I'm not sure knowing it would help us all that much, since he had no real connection to anyone.

[Kuruharan]

Based on the rules, I'm assuming we will find out who received the empowerment vote at the end of each Day regardless of whether that empowerment vote actually has an impact on the lynch. Am I correct on this?

Yes, empowerment is cheesily obvious regardless on if it has any sort of impact on the outcome.

That is because the ideas that I have are based on two assumptions - one is that the Wizards cannot continue making roles once they are in the Dead Thread.

Correct. Their role creating abilities cease when they enter the Dead Thread.

The other is that a win for wolves and EW is the same as it is in an ordinary game, ie live wolves have to outnumber live villagers.
Are both my assumptions correct?

Equal to or outnumber.

[Nerwen]

Talking of Morsul- if you want proof that the Dead are reading this thread pretty closely, check out his signature. It used to be "R.I.P. Morsul 07-12-2017. Cause of Death: Werewolf". Now it's "Is not Gollum, thank you very much", which is an obvious reference to this post of mine from yesterDay:
Since it is strictly against the rules for us to cite post counts from the Dead Thread, I will definitely not mention the fact that it has seventeen posts as of now in support of any theory that poor Morsul is just babbling away to himself in there à la Gollum.
Hit home, did it, Morsul?:p

[Boromir88]

Agree with only 3 groups, Zil was innocent, Zil was wolf, none of the above.

And moving forward agree with Nerwen that we should only ask the dead to check the lynchees (unless in the event of a hunter kill).

Knowing the lynchees alignment is in my opinion going to be more beneficial...and considering the delay of information the wolves might be bolder/aggressive in pursuing lynches than they would in a normal game where roles get revealed immediately.

Today is the one day the DL is going to suck for me. I may be able to return and vote, may not. Cheers. ;)

[Boromir88]

Agree with only 3 groups, Zil was innocent, Zil was wolf, none of the above.

And moving forward agree with Nerwen that we should only ask the dead to check the lynchees (unless in the event of a hunter kill).


And hopefully we can have a visitor clear up any of the "none of the above" options we're left with in the future.

[Brinniel]

Well, that's why I was pushing so hard yesterDay for the village to agree to the plan (see the posts I quoted in my last post). If we'd all agreed on the Dead Thread voting for Inziladun, then him not self-voting would out him as a wolf anyway. That's why I was getting a bit frustrated yesterDay at people either ignoring the discussion, flat-out rejecting the idea, or saying we should wait until toDay to discuss it. And I suspect that while some of that was for practical/legitimate/non-evil reasons, there is at least one evil person hiding in that category.

You're right. It should've been discussed early yesterDay. I'm partially to blame as I should've taken the time to think about the Dead Thread more in the first half of the Day and grasp a better understanding of it (I finally did get a chance to peek at the Dead Thread of the last game with one to get a little better understanding of how it works...it wasn't until then I even realized the dead were allowed to post at Night). I didn't want to discuss the topic more at the end of yesterDay as I found that to be too much of a distraction when we needed to focus on who to lynch. I still stand by that.

Another option I can think of if we want to keep the list divided in two categories, is we can instruct the Dead Thread to use their empowerment vote toMorrow to communicate Inzil's role. The downside of that is we would be a Day behind on finding out roles if they already know Inzil's and toDay's empowerment vote would essentially have no meaning behind it.

1. Everyone in the Dead Thread needs to be around around the deadline.
2. People would need to start voting earlier on the Living Thread so the Dead have time to discuss who is the best option out of those who have votes. I mean, I suppose they could agree to some kind of ranking, but I can imagine many ways in which that could get messed up.
And that is quite a problem. Because some people aren't ever able to be around at deadline and then there others who are only able to be active in the last few hours of the Day.

As for me, I can tell you that in most cases I am only able to be around during the first hours of the Day and then not again until the last hour or two.

On that note, I will be leaving for a day trip soon, though I should hopefully be back for the end of the Day. So I don't think I can add much more to the Dead Thread discussion toDay at least since once I return, I will need to focus on who to vote for.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So today's the day we could see the duel, eh? I had guessed that we would have been aware of a visitor by now.

[Nerwen]

Proposed Empowerment List

ZIL = PREY
Boromir88
Brinniel
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Eönwë
Lalaith

ZIL = PREDATOR
Legate of Amon Lanc
Loslote
Mithalwen
Nerwen

NONE OF THE ABOVE
Nogrod
Pervinca Took
satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin

Any objections?

[Lalaith]

Any objections?
Nope, that should give the Dead enough options to play with.
Btw - do they decide to empower before or after the votes?

[Nerwen]

Nope, that should give the Dead enough options to play with.
Btw - do they decide to empower before or after the votes?
It happens during the Day, so before/during the votes- but we won't know until afterwards.

After there are TWO residents of the Dead Thread, every DAY the dead get to vote on giving one of the living an extra vote. The dead are subject to the same deadline as the living. The living will not know who among them will get an extra vote until it is revealed in the closing narration of the DAY.

[Pervinca Took]

No objections.

[Lalaith]

So the Dead will empower someone BEFORE they know what way that person is voting or if indeed that person is going to vote at all?

[Mithalwen]

At the risk of seeming a complete cow the extra bod should go in the last category if it must be Alphabetical order has clumped unreliable voters with a debutant player which the Dead may not find ideal. Sign up order would be preferable. Otherwise I would agree to anything just to get a different topic of conversation. I am about ready to do a Boro. Is this a personality trait to be so obsessive or some kind of distraction technique?

[Lalaith]

a different topic of conversation
Darling Mith, you're about to get one, I'm going to be posting something about the Wizards and the roles and stuff very shortly....

[Mithalwen]

Please before I rip off an arm and beat myself to death with the wet end.

[satansaloser2005]

Proposed Empowerment List

ZIL = PREY
Boromir88
Brinniel
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Eönwë
Lalaith

ZIL = PREDATOR
Legate of Amon Lanc
Loslote
Mithalwen
Nerwen

NONE OF THE ABOVE
Nogrod
Pervinca Took
satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin

Any objections?



Starting the day with this so I don't forget. This sounds fine.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Lommy cast suspicion on Loslote very early on.

Eonwe calls Lommy out for this.

Interestingly, on Day 2, Lommy was then the first to jump onto Loslote's suggestion that Eonwe had 'changed' in Day 2 (post #221) and proceeded to cast the first vote for Eonwe.

Even on Day 1 (post #61) she brings the same thing up, making this comment for Eonwe: "if I was dead I'd empower him" The explicit nature of this comment is fascinating.

My thinking is that the second lynch seems like more of a set-up than the first.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Apologies, I meant the second night-kill, not lynch. Meaning Lommy's death sets up Eonwe.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So the Dead will empower someone BEFORE they know what way that person is voting or if indeed that person is going to vote at all?
Before or after, I think - they simply vote at any time they want, and during the final calculation, it is all taken into account.

Proposed Empowerment List

ZIL = PREY
Boromir88
Brinniel
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Eönwë
Lalaith

ZIL = PREDATOR
Legate of Amon Lanc
Loslote
Mithalwen
Nerwen

NONE OF THE ABOVE
Nogrod
Pervinca Took
satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin

Any objections?
At the risk of seeming a complete cow the extra bod should go in the last category if it must be Alphabetical order has clumped unreliable voters with a debutant player which the Dead may not find ideal. Sign up order would be preferable.
At the risk, I actually see what Mith means here. But maybe we should just try not to let this fall into another two-hour debate and hope the Dead would be able to pick somebody? I mean Pervinca is a new player, sure, Nog's opinion on the whole thing notwithstanding he is probably going to vote, Shasta has posted thus can be expected to vote, Sally likewise plus she needs to vote so she doesn't get modfired... I think we could leave it at that. (Also I don't want to now spend more time researching what was the signup order etc. But maybe we can use it toMorrow?)

Otherwise I would agree to anything just to get a different topic of conversation. I am about ready to do a Boro. Is this a personality trait to be so obsessive or some kind of distraction technique?
It's important, but once we get this done, we can focus on the Day's content and all. It's next on my list.

EDIT: x-ed with two Eomers

[Mithalwen]

I know it is important but it is now 2/3 of the way through the day and we have not really discussed much that will affect our votes today in favour of finding something out after day's end.

[Lalaith]

Anyway, here are my thoughts about the wizards...as we are on Day 3 which I believe is technically the first day we could see a Weeeeeezaaaaard’s Duuuuel.

For both EW and GW, as far as I read the rules, creating roles is as good as scrying - because trying to 'turn' the other wizard will reveal them.
For the GW, Gifted are a nice bonus but not essential to winning. At the beginning of the game, the numbers are on his/her side.
However, the EW, to improve chances of victory, needs to make as many wolves as possible and keep them live if s/he can.
So not creating wolves some nights or rushing to send wolves to the Dead Thread would be rather reckless policy and I am going to assume that the EW has been creating all the wolves s/he can.
(From this, it would also follow that even if the EW discovers the GW s/he might hold fire on the duel, and would be more worried about keeping their identity hidden.)

So, at this stage, therefore, after three Nights, chances are we could have the maximum permitted pack of wolves (ie 3) in our midst - the EW would be creating or at least trying to, each night. Of course, any one of following things could mean we have fewer than 3:
* if Zil was a wolf
* if there is a Ranger and s/he protected another player from conversion
* if the EW tried to turn a gifted
* if the EW tried to turn the GW

Anyway, the other thing I was thinking was that the baddies might be worried by now about a Hunter being amongst us. They killed Lommy, and Lommy suspected Zil and Nerwen, also Eonwe who she voted for. Presumably, the wolves killed her without worry that a Hunter-Lommy might take one of them down. So, should we feel less worried about Eonwe and Nerwen as a result of this?

And finally - this is directed at my fellow innocents - if you haven't been turned yet, it might be worth wondering why. The wolves wouldn't necessarily want a new member of the pack suddenly turning their suspicions around.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Basically, my guess is that we've probably got 3 wolves now, but Eonwe is not one of them, because the Lommy kill puts Eonwe firmly in the spotlight. I doubt Inzil was a wolf, but we might find that out soon.

My top suspect for evil puppet-master is still Loslote.

There are unfortunately lots of excellent wolf-candidates now. Shasta, Sally, Mith, Brinniel and Lalaith would have been my top choices on Nights 2 & 3 (let alone Night 1!). 2 wolves in that lot, put money on it!

[Nerwen]

So I was going to do a proper analysis of Lommy, but ran out of time- toDay has been somewhat difficult for me as far as participation goes. She was rather similar to Morsul in being an active player who was not widely suspected; different in that she herself had a range of suspects, which she listed both Days.

Nerwen - seems like normal self
Inziladun - seems like normal self
Loslote - kinda shady but not necessarily (probably?) evil
Boromir88 - probably the most eyebrow villager so far, the overtly cheerful banter seems a bit off (I don't want to say you're not allowed to have fun :p but something about his behaviour seems like an act)
Shastanis Althreduin - I'll facebook message him too oops
satansaloser2005 - not here not judging
Eomer of the Rohirrim - predictably rubs me the wrong way, ignoring that
Morsul the Dark - seems innocent?
Lalaith - not here not judging
Legate of Amon Lanc - seems like normal self
Mithalwen - seems like normal self
Eönwë - if I was dead I'd empower him
Nogrod - not here not judging
Pervencia Took - not here not judging
Brinniel - seems like normal self
Voted Boro.

Innocent
Legate and Mithalwen - seem like their normal innocent selves, haven't said anything particularly eyebrow-raising.
Eomer - he rubs me the wrong way with everything he says, so it is as it should be. :p The way he commented on the Nerwen-Inzil spat sounded very genuine and innocent to me too.

Idk
Boro and Lottie - yesterDay was weird. I would like to wait at least one more Day and see. But Boro is certainly fishier than Lottie and seems to have a death wish, so out of the two I'd vote for him again.
Lalaith - she's hard to read.
Nogrod - aka the advocate of the dead :D I initially thought his tone was off but it's been getting better. I'm watching him but wouldn't like to lynch him yet.
Brinniel and Shasta and Sally - they are all under my radar atm, will need to pay more attention toMorrow.
Pervencia - where is she (again)?

Suspicious
Nerwen and Zil - I don't like the way the spat escalated, it actually made me think of those times two wolves thought it would be "logical" to suspect each other and went for it and nobody who was actually innocent thought it was logical.
Eönwë - it's maybe not the fairest or best of arguments, but he'd have been a very logical wolf convert pick. Has been markedly guarded toDay and continues to talk about the dead thread which is useful (I really appreciate someone trying to work out a system, I do!) but also conveninetly something else than finding wolves/EW, which is especially bad this late.
Voted Eönwë.

[Mithalwen]

Oh come on Eomer. Since when have I been an excellent wolf choice? I have only survived once which was a fluke. Apart from being founder member with darling Anguirel of the Fenris pack, my main claim to fame was revealing out of sheer boredom.. Noone in their right mind would actually choose me.

[Eönwë]

That said, I think it is better to include the "none of the above/something else" option rather than the "they voted each other/they voted themselves" option, because does that really tell us anything?
It does, but on consideration I agree with everyone else here that it's better to keep the groups to choose from large, in case of someone failing to vote or sneaky group/category manipulation by someone who knows more than we do. Better to get some definite information now than no information, and hope that if things were complicated, the visitor will be able to tell us why.

On which note, a question for Kuru: Will it be clear from the narration whether someone is killed or is a Visitor Who Leaves?

[Lalaith]

she herself had a range of suspects, which she listed both Days.

Which is why I was putting forward the tentative theory that wolves might chose her as a potential Hunter who was unlikely to cause them harm.

[Eönwë]

Equal to or outnumber.
Another question for Kuru: If both wizards are still living, does 'equal to or outnumber' include the EW?

[Kuruharan]

On which note, a question for Kuru: Will it be clear from the narration whether someone is killed or is a Visitor Who Leaves?

I wouldn't indicate who was who, but there would be two people going into the Dead Thread at once (probably) so it should be fairly apparent something odd has happened.

Another question for Kuru: If both wizards are still living, does 'equal to or outnumber' include the EW?

Yes.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ok, going through Lommy's posts:

During Day 1, her first suspicion whatsoever was towards Lottie for discussing possible EW strategies, although she was being flip-floppy about that (several times in several posts). She also very strongly advocated for a vote and she was also the first one to actually go through with it. She found Boro the most eyebrow-rising, said about Eönwë "if I was dead I'd empower him" and called him a new phantom in the next post for his elaborate plans on Dead communication.

On Day 2, she expressed puzzlement on the death of Morsul, pointed out that it points at Lottie, but that such a conclusion would be hasty. Continues to think Boro "shady".
First off, I'm a bit puzzled by the choice of Morsul. It does lead tracks to Lottie, but that seems like a hasty conclusion - especially in a game with no seer. I'm sorry but my first idea of "why Morsul" is because in the last dead thread game he was (at least from my pov) majorly confusing the communication between the living and the dead, so maybe the baddies are wishing for a reprise. Or maybe they just wanted an entertaining start to the dead thread.

Also the vote yesterDay was a bit of a fiasco. I'm looking at Boro especially, who has continued being very shady toDay. Would it make any sense for the EW to act cobblerish and try to make people not take him seriously????

After that, there started a very long argument against Nogrod's lack of faith in the Dead thread. At the same time, she was posting many generally helpful suggestions (try to prevent a tie etc.) which made her (in my opinion) look more innocent. This might have been one factor for her death.

She also pretty much dismissed the idea of Wolves killing Wolves.

There also came her initial reaction to the Inzil-Nerwen incident, which went like this:
I don't understand why what Zil said would have been a slip?? And the suddenly escalated Zil-Nerwen spat is very interesting. Doesn't make either of them look better in my book tbh.


Afterwards, she had more to say to Nogrod about the dead-strategy discussion, some unclarities about Boro (but it doesn't look like she would suspect him), and agreeing with Lalaith once again that Wolves killing Wolves doesn't make any sense. Then, in relation to Eönwë's "conspiracy theory" about Boro-Wolf and EW-Lottie, she said:
I think that's not semi-crazy, that's actually one of the few theories that makes sense. It just seems quite unlikely that our top lynch candidates would have been the wolf and the EW, and bold of them to play it this way. But that's one of the reasons I haven't been too keen on scrutinizing Boro and Lottie toDay - we shouldn't get fixated on this logical but rather wild scenario.

In the same post, however, she continued:
And I agree very much with Lottie about Eönwë. There's something about him that's different, and he would have been a good (but obviously also short-sighted) pick from the EW. I mean picking the villager that is the most widely trusted/ considered reasonable/productive is great if it works but not exactly sneaky. But in this case I wouldn't be surprised... which kinda sucks for Eönwë of course if it's true - imagine being such a good good guy that you're turned evil and then lynched because you were the obvious choice because you were so good?
Which was the suspicion for Eönwë which appeared yesterDay and based on which (presumably) Lommy eventually also voted him. Then she said she didn't understand what the Nerwen-Zilcident was about:
Now can someone please explain it to me too. I have read it 2 times and I still didn't see Zil saying anything weird.

She also wasn't entirely convinced by Lottie about Eönwë being shady.
That could be considered fishy, but given that he loudly advocated no lynch on Day1 it's not half as shady as you make it sound.
After this, she posted a list of people (post #236). Ok, I can quote it in full:
Innocent
Legate and Mithalwen - seem like their normal innocent selves, haven't said anything particularly eyebrow-raising.
Eomer - he rubs me the wrong way with everything he says, so it is as it should be. :p The way he commented on the Nerwen-Inzil spat sounded very genuine and innocent to me too.

Idk
Boro and Lottie - yesterDay was weird. I would like to wait at least one more Day and see. But Boro is certainly fishier than Lottie and seems to have a death wish, so out of the two I'd vote for him again.
Lalaith - she's hard to read.
Nogrod - aka the advocate of the dead :D I initially thought his tone was off but it's been getting better. I'm watching him but wouldn't like to lynch him yet.
Brinniel and Shasta and Sally - they are all under my radar atm, will need to pay more attention toMorrow.
Pervencia - where is she (again)?

Suspicious
Nerwen and Zil - I don't like the way the spat escalated, it actually made me think of those times two wolves thought it would be "logical" to suspect each other and went for it and nobody who was actually innocent thought it was logical.
Eönwë - it's maybe not the fairest or best of arguments, but he'd have been a very logical wolf convert pick. Has been markedly guarded toDay and continues to talk about the dead thread which is useful (I really appreciate someone trying to work out a system, I do!) but also conveninetly something else than finding wolves/EW, which is especially bad this late.

People she lists as "suspicious" are Nerwen and Zil because of the spat and then Eönwë. Apart from that, Boro and Lottie and Nogrod are sort of in the "watching" cathegory (like it seems she could come back to vote for some of them if it came to it). So if the reason for her elimination should be some basic fear of Lommy being on somebody's trail, it would be one of this group - except for one important detail which I will get to below.

Then, after getting an explanation what the Zilcident was about, she responded:
But, they didn't??? Unless they asked privately?? And it would be far more of a stretch to assume they did than that they didn't, if you ask me. I would have jumped to the same conclusion as Zil did. *side-eyes Nerwen (and Lottie a bit too)*

But soon afterwards, after getting responses from the people in question:
Okay okay.

Boro and Nerwen, thanks for the clarifications. I actually think Zil looks better not worse because of this. But I also think Nerwen looks a bit more innocent. It starts to look like an innocent-on-innocent spat to me. Argghh.
This basically seems to have put the matter of the Zilcident to rest for her. And that was effectively the last thing she said before voting (for Eönwë - quite obviously, after she did not have such a strong suspicion against Zil and Nerwen anymore, he would be the only left in that cathegory).

So the interesting thing is that out of the people who were in her "suspicious" cathegory, it seems like actually at the moment of her death she did not suspect two of them much anymore. That's an interesting thing to consider if the reason for her death was because the Wolves thought she was a threat to them. Because at that moment, Nerwen would (presumably) no longer be suspected by her (or at least not as much as before).

So what altogether? She certainly was not a "no-trace" kill, because she offered opinions on lots of things and people.

I don't think she said anything that would look specifically "Gifted"-ish, but then again, we are in a bit different situation than normally.

She was also widely trusted, or in any case, at least generally not suspected. She was going after quite a few people, too, or mentioned the possibility that she could come back to them. A frame-up would be also a possibility, the question is the frame-up of whom. Eönwë? Or even somebody else like Lottie? (The problem is we have the classic dichotomy of "this could be genuine, or it could be a bluff".)

EDIT: x-ed basically since my last

[Nogrod]

I had just time to skim through the thread to see how much there is to read today to notice this.
Oh, and surely empowering the most suspicious person could cause problems?I think he must mean empowering a vote *for* the most suspicious person.Exactly. Empowering the most suspicious would be not just stupid but kind of ununderstandable behavior. I mean why on earth anyone would do that? So the idea was (and is), naturally, empowering a vote for the most suspicious player.

In a hurry for an hour or two still, but will be back then.

[Eönwë]

Anyway, the other thing I was thinking was that the baddies might be worried by now about a Hunter being amongst us. They killed Lommy, and Lommy suspected Zil and Nerwen, also Eonwe who she voted for. Presumably, the wolves killed her without worry that a Hunter-Lommy might take one of them down. So, should we feel less worried about Eonwe and Nerwen as a result of this?
Maybe slightly, but there's still only a 1/13 chance of hitting a Hunter at this point. Is there any evidence of Lommy changing her behaviour in a way that makes her seem more huntery?

The really cynical and paranoid part of me wonders whether this could be a wolf-Lalaith (potentially a newly-wolfed Lalaith, because she didn't seem suspicious to me yesterDay) attempting to make a fellow wolf-Nerwen seem more innocent by grouping her with others. Like a strong version of the 'a wolf wouldn't pick someone who leads back to them'.

The problem in this game is that now potentially just under half of the living (6/13) have a role they didn't start off with, so I'm just seeing potential new wolves everywhere. I think I need some time to reread.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Anyway, the other thing I was thinking was that the baddies might be worried by now about a Hunter being amongst us. They killed Lommy, and Lommy suspected Zil and Nerwen, also Eonwe who she voted for. Presumably, the wolves killed her without worry that a Hunter-Lommy might take one of them down. So, should we feel less worried about Eonwe and Nerwen as a result of this?
That's actually a good point. Except - and that is exactly the thing I've now been trying to wrap my head around - Lommy did not seemingly suspect Nerwen anymore at the time of her death (see above). So essentially, a Nerwen-Wolf could have also felt safe even under such circumstances. This actually makes me want to take a second look at Nerwen, since I haven't really questioned her before very much.

Basically, my guess is that we've probably got 3 wolves now, but Eonwe is not one of them, because the Lommy kill puts Eonwe firmly in the spotlight. I doubt Inzil was a wolf, but we might find that out soon.
She did (again, unless it was a double-bluff or whatnot). That is a fair point.

There are unfortunately lots of excellent wolf-candidates now. Shasta, Sally, Mith, Brinniel and Lalaith would have been my top choices on Nights 2 & 3 (let alone Night 1!). 2 wolves in that lot, put money on it!
Indeed. I think I also want to focus on the quieter players a bit more and also generally reevaluate my approach to things. Also in light of what Lalaith has just said. The next level is the fact that many people haven't even posted on Day 1 - that would also have been pretty good thing from the EW to pick one of them on the next Night, because then they would start "fresh".

EDIT: x-ed with Nog and Eönwë

[Eönwë]

On which note, a question for Kuru: Will it be clear from the narration whether someone is killed or is a Visitor Who Leaves?I wouldn't indicate who was who, but there would be two people going into the Dead Thread at once (probably) so it should be fairly apparent something odd has happened.
Now that sounds like a very stressful Night on the Dead Thread - if I'm reading the rules correctly, the Dead can only vote to find out the role of someone currently in their thread, and this means they'll only get one chance to attempt to guess which of the two dead is the Visitor (before the Visitor returns to the Living Thread).

Another question for Kuru: If both wizards are still living, does 'equal to or outnumber' include the EW?
Yes.
Ok, so that means worst-case scenario now we have a 4:9 evil:good ratio with the EW still having one wolf pick to spare! :eek:

[Mithalwen]

So is the plan final? If so should it not be made clear to the Dead?
maybe with a reference to the post in which the settled version is.

I thought I merely had allergic rhinitis but I have some sort of summer bug, and feel grim so would prefer to have an early night so I may have to make an early decision. So I suppose looking for differences is the thing to look at.. and then the odd spread vote followed by bandwagon. Heyho

[Lalaith]

Mith, continuing with the new topics of conversation - on Day One you strongly suspected Lottie and voted for her but on Day Two you mostly suspected (and voted for) Zil.
How do you feel about Lottie at the moment?

[Eönwë]

Exactly. Empowering the most suspicious would be not just stupid but kind of ununderstandable behavior. I mean why on earth anyone would do that? So the idea was (and is), naturally, empowering a vote for the most suspicious player.
Yeah, I very much misread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=707746&postcount=345) that, which is why I was so confused.

I'm still a little confused by some of the practicalities of this on the Dead Thread side (e.g. do people have to come up with a list which orders people by suspicion? And how late to wait before a 'suspicious enough' person is voted by living?) but it seems like it worked last time, so I'm going to give it a look before I make any further comments on it. But I assume the general takeaway for the Living is that we're going to need to start voting earlier?

Apart from that, Boro and Lottie and Nogrod are sort of in the "watching" cathegory (like it seems she could come back to vote for some of them if it came to it). So if the reason for her elimination should be some basic fear of Lommy being on somebody's trail, it would be one of this group - except for one important detail which I will get to below.
If those three are a wolf-pack together (i.e. Lottie as EW, Boro as N1-wolf, Nog as N2-wolf), I won't even be annoyed if they win.

Ok, should be back in a few (probably 3-4) hours when I have more time.

edit: x-posted since my last

[Mithalwen]

Mith, continuing with the new topics of conversation - on Day One you strongly suspected Lottie and voted for her but on Day Two you mostly suspected (and voted for) Zil.
How do you feel about Lottie at the moment?

I didn't stop suspecting her. I just put her on the back burner since Inziladun was hacking me off with his negativity. I was a little surprised so many also voted for him since I don't think they all expressed strong views during the day. Loslote IIRC didn't engage with my suspicions - which can be a wolf tactic but agreed with me enough to find it a bit creepy as I think I said. I don't think she has posted today so I will look back and see if I still find her suspicious in context of subsequent events. And who supported their vote. I can appreciate the risk of cross posts but it may be suspect in some.

[Lalaith]

Right, because it's a quiet Saturday for me and I'm not at work, I've been able to be a much more conscientious player. So much so that I've read through the whole bally thread all over again.
The reason I asked about Lottie is because I can see, reading over the thread again, more clearly where the suspicions about her were coming from and I've moved her further up my suspect list as a result.
I still feel very uncomfortable about Boro and would probably have voted for him toDay but he says that he might not be back toDay. For various reasons I feel uncomfortable with voting for someone in absentia.
I'm feeling more paranoid today - more baddies about. I trust fewer of you. Some old friends - Mith, Nogs - would have been good candidates for turning, I think. Eonwe too - he survived the "has Eonwe turned" attacks yesterday and this might make him a good candidate for turning last Night. Except of course that puts my "wolves feared Lommy was a Hunter" theory on its head. Hmmm.

[Mithalwen]

I suppose this game is a bit different but would Hunter be top priority for the GW? I can't recall it working well very often. Either goes pear shaped or it is irrelevant. If Lommy were Hunter that would simly be a first choice.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I specifically did not think Lottie to be the EW on D1 based on her behavior - I felt the EW, being a (virtually?) lone baddie would likely attempt to blend in and go with the flow of the village - something I felt Lottie hadn't done. I'm willing to be overruled, though, considering my horrid participation thus far (and today's won't be much better, I'm afraid, but I will be here sporadically).

[Lalaith]

Hunter could have been second choice.

[Lalaith]

Anyway, I'm not saying there IS a Hunter. I'm saying the wolves might have been worried there was one....but maybe I'm overthinking it.

[Nogrod]

Has anyone read toDay's thread in one piece? (Like I did just a moment ago)

Even sharp-minded people like Legate mis-interpreted the scheme for the Dead-thread and adding more options only makes it more misreadable - not to talk of even and odd days, alphabetical order or signing-in order or whatever. And which is the authoritative version - the one that is presented first or the one that is presented last etc.

Happily I see Eönwe backtracking at least that much as to agree that we shouldn't think this kind of scheme should be the default mindset here in the living thread for the whole game through. Good. We're starting to talk sense, I'd say.

I have nothing against trying it for one Day here in the beginning - well, toDay. There is probably quite little the Dead can tell us toDay as we (well, you) lynched no-one on D1. So we might as well try to find out whether Zil was innocent or not.

That said, I'd still caution us to take it (and everything from the Dead thread) with a pinch of salt as Eönwe put it - and that's actually the whole point: we don't get 100% information from there as much as we wished we could. Therefore, let's not try to puzzle them with requests like "none of the above". :rolleyes:

(I was thinking of writing a parody-version of a Day in the Dead-thread during the day I was off doing other things and if I have time I might present one for you - but now I'll take a look at some more pressing matters aka. is there anything to say about toDay - or our voting toDay.)

[Nogrod]

Voting D2

Inzil -> Nerwen
Lommy -> Eönwe
.07 Eomer -> Lottie
.19 Lalaith -> Eomer
.22 Legate -> Boro
.25 Mith -> Inzil
.41 Nogrod -> Eönwe 2
.51 Brinn -> Nerwen 2
.53 Pervinca -> Inzil 2
.53 Nerwen -> Inzil 3
.55 Lottie -> Inzil 4
.58 Boro -> Inzil 5
.58 Eönwe -> Inzil 6

(Only the votes during the last hour are given a timestamp aka. minutes into the last hour)

Well, we shure didn't tie the vote yesterDay.

The problem is that it's pretty hard to draw conclusions from there as baddies as well as goodies might have jumped on the band-wagon in the end - the former to blend in and the latter to secure there is no draw on votes.

That being said I'm a bit uneasy with how easily people jumped on Zil-wagon with quite little to argue for it (Pervinca might be pardoned - and s/he (?) voted quite early only to tie Zil with others in the tally). Sure, I myself somewhat suspected him, but I tend to do that everytime we play, so I'd not take that as a reason to actually vote for him, at least myself.

[Kuruharan]

Pervinca Took has requested to withdraw from the game.

She was an Ordo.

Living
Nerwen
Loslote
Boromir88
Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Lalaith
Legate of Amon Lanc
Mithalwen
Eönwë
Nogrod
Brinniel

The Dead
Morsul the Dark
Inziladun
Thinlómien

Escaped
Pervinca Took (Ordo)

[Nogrod]

Btw. Legate: could you tell us what you were thinking with this one (on Lommy):
At the same time, she was posting many generally helpful suggestions (try to prevent a tie etc.) which made her (in my opinion) look more innocent.In the end of the Day1 you were a strong advocate of the no-lynch policy and actually tried to achieve it - or at least tried to make an impression you tried to achieve it, as you voted already three minutes before the DL and knew there were people still voting, but commented on your vote that it "should be a tie". And here you then say Lommy's driving for a lynch made her look more innocent?

So what has changed, your loyalties or something else?

[Nogrod]

Pervinca Took has requested to withdraw from the game.

She was an Ordo.

Sad. :(

Come bravely to the next one! You'll get the hang of this!

[Lalaith]

Sad.

Come bravely to the next one! You'll get the hang of this!
Hear, hear. Hope to see you again, Pervinca.

Anyway moving to practicals I thought Pervinca's disappearance might warrant a rejig of the list but actually given that Boro said he probably wasn't voting it's not as imbalanced as I'd feared. If the Dead are already voting on who to empower we don't want to confuse things. So here it is again...

ZIL = PREY
Boromir88
Brinniel
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Eönwë
Lalaith

ZIL = PREDATOR
Legate of Amon Lanc
Loslote
Mithalwen
Nerwen

NONE OF THE ABOVE
Nogrod
Pervinca Took
satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin

[Mithalwen]

Well I hope it Is good news. With so many quiet folk, Pervinca gone and an ordo we can't rely on the dead. The numbers are a bit scary. I fear that we are already metaphorically attached to another object by an inclined plane wrapped helically around an axis. So yes let's catch some wolves. This messaging debate is making Brexit negotiations look and snappy. Filibustering?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ok, I now spent some time going through the posts of the players who were more out of spotlight...

Brinniel - was very scarce on Day 1, basically appeared, was against no-lynch policy, and voted Loslote, with the note that be the first to advocate a no-lynch could be a good cover for a baddie. On Day 2, discussed Morsul's death, also said that she was inclined to see Boro as innocent as his behavior would be risky for a baddie. Mentioned that both Boro and Eönwë were good possible options for the Wolves. After the Zilcident, started suspecting Nerwen:
More seem to find Inzil's reaction worrisome, but I'm more worried about Nerwen. I didn't really see his comment as a slip-up and she seems to be pulling this idea out of hat and letting the rest of the village run with it.
She eventually voted her as well. YesterDay a bit and toDay more, she engaged in the debate on the Dead thread. Her contributions to that topic seemed like genuinely interested, if not always very much to the point. Objectively, her appearances have been infrequent, although whenever she appeared, she had something to say. If there is anything suspicious about her, it would be the fact that she has basically remained on the outskirts of the debate.

Lalaith - actually posted a lot more than I thought, at least in quantity of posts. Not so much on first Day, though. She voted Nerwen, based on:
Because she's been a bit enigmatic toDay, because if she's bad she's scary and if she's good she'll be an asset to the dead thread.
On Day 2, thought Morsul was probably killed because he was thought innocent. Discussed the Wolf-killed-by-EW theory a bit (dismissing it), mentioned me, Brinniel, Mithalwen and later also Lommy as "sensible and thus feeling non-wolfish". She didn't get where the "Eönwë has changed" argument came from, and was...
Uncomfortable, in varying degrees, with Nerwen, Eomer, Boro (reasons stated elsewhere) - also Lottie and Zil - they seem helpful but I'm not feeling it.
I actually had to look back for the "reasons stated elsewhere" - they are apparently that they were proposing the idea of no Wolf on Night 1. That is fairly random, if you ask me, especially since next she uses the term "my five main suspects" as if it were a big thing. She eventually voted Eomer.
ToDay, she participated in the Dead List suggestions, and has been posting a lot of thoughts which may be going on as I type this. From what I have seen, however, there were many points which seemed helpful. If there is anything suspicous about her, it would be her list of suspects on Day 2 which sort of appeared out of nowhere (resp. the reasoning was quite random).

Mith - her Day 1 was straight going for Lottie, Day 2 didn't apparently drop it but was suspicious of Inzil for downplaying looking at Morsul and for voting Nerwen. She has been posting some quite reasonable things which make her look good to me, such as:
The important thing as I recall was to limit the questions so that the dead had a multiple choice of votes to allow for their special knowledge. We don't want to mess up lynching a wolf to know x in the dead thread was an ordo.
Same thing toDay about the alphabetical order etc. (unless there was some hidden purpose behind that, like clumping some Wolves into a fitting cathegory)
If there was anything potentially Wolfish about her, then it would be only one of the latter posts, which is basically "nobody would make me a Wolf":
Oh come on Eomer. Since when have I been an excellent wolf choice? I have only survived once which was a fluke. Apart from being founder member with darling Anguirel of the Fenris pack, my main claim to fame was revealing out of sheer boredom.. Noone in their right mind would actually choose me.
But that is about it.

Sally - has missed Day 1, on Day 2 had a fairly pessimistic ouverture, dismissed Morsul's kill as probably random first kill, and posted very little apart from that. The main post of any content which seems objectively relevant is this, and I can quote in full:
So all of the chatter about Dun bothers me more than Dun's own words. My intention at this point is to take a stab at someone in that conversation, though at this point, that's sort of everyone. :eek:

In less vague news, my gut reaction is to not trust Lottie.

As one more point, why are we talking about the EW potentially killing his or her own wolf? I fail to see how the wizard could benefit from this in any way. There is a wolf, and the wolf killed Morsul.
This all actually sounds quite genuine, but most of the rest of her posts are effectively just one-liners (even though they are part of conversation). Also, apparently tried to vote just before DL and failed. ToDay, she still scolded those who spread the vote in the beginning, but also not much else after that. If there is anything suspicious about her, it would be that.

Summa summarum, in case of all of those, there isn't really enough for me to ring an alarm as far as I am concerned. I would definitely prefer to read more from all of those, except Lalaith has already started, which is good.

Ok, I spent some time with this, so off to check what's been happening on the thread, if anything.

EDIT: x-posted with lots

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Uh-huh. And I should also take a look at Shasta, for that matter. But he has been absent possibly even more than sally.

Also, a pity Pervinca had to drop (to be honest, this probably wasn't the easiest game to start with - but so hope she might come back for some other game...)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Btw. Legate: could you tell us what you were thinking with this one (on Lommy):
In the end of the Day1 you were a strong advocate of the no-lynch policy and actually tried to achieve it - or at least tried to make an impression you tried to achieve it, as you voted already three minutes before the DL and knew there were people still voting, but commented on your vote that it "should be a tie". And here you then say Lommy's driving for a lynch made her look more innocent?

So what has changed, your loyalties or something else?

I meant on Day 2, when she warned us from repeating that.

[Nogrod]

Night4

Aphrodite (A): Knock-Knock
Bandobras, Captain, Daisy, Evil, (B, C, D, E) : Who’s there?
A: A Living Dead!
B & C: Oh it’s you.
D & E: Welcome.
A: So?
B: So what?
A: What shall we do?
C: Just vote to see D’s role.
D: And then vote to empower a person in the Living Thread from one of the lists here that indicate that B was an innocent on D2.
E: But which of these lists do you choose? That’s the question… *grins*
B: Ignore him.
C: I’ve actually stopped following the thread. It’s boring.
D: There’s nothing else to do though.
E: Get bored my friends… don’t vote… I’d like to do it for you around the Deadline.
B: If we have nothing else to do, then actually be my guest.
C: I don’t fancy either reading all the pages just to tell them something that is of no importance.
D: We do have a duty to help them, you know?
E: Why bother my friends? They don’t deserve your aid.
B: I might agree with you on this issue – evil!
C: I think I have RL-stuff to do.
D: Doggone it…
A: But couldn’t we play the game? Try to find out the villains? Put our heads together with superior information and lead the village to victory?
B: They don’t listen.
C: They think they know better, cretins.
D: It’s hard you see…
E: There is no way you can deliver a message of any importance to them my dear A. You’re totally doomed to play a game that only takes their ability to see as a measure of everything – you may know more here, but there is no way you can make them listen to you as they think they know what to do...
A: Oh, crap. Let’s go to sleep then. I did have a good book to read instead of following this game...

[Nogrod]

Day5

Aphrodite (A): Knock-Knock
Bandobras, Captain, Daisy, Evil, Fiend, Gandalf (B, C, D, E, F, G) : Who’s there?
A: A Living Dead!
B & C: Oh it’s you.
D & E: Welcome.
F & G: And…
A: Nice to be here. What have you been up to?
B: Well…
C: Not much…
D: Actually…
E: More or less…
F: Nothing.
G: But there is no choice as some of those idiots insist on acting on what we do.
A: And that is?
F: Nothing serious my friend…
B: Shut up, we know you’re a wolf F.
C: Quit smiling.
D: Evil!
E: Hehe…
G: We’ll get you too one Day you mischievous cretin!
F: Well, you can’t signal my guilt in many days to come anyway.
D: Frustrating, I’ll tell you.
C: You see…
A: I see.
B: Looking back at how a known wolf (to us) F acted on Dx and E on Dy, we’re pretty solid that J is either a wolf or the EW herself.
C: And we know these things, the villagers don’t…
D: Some of the villagers were actually on the right track and voted for her yesterday…
G: But we had to tell them whether D was innocent or not…
B: Or that was how they were reading it.
C: Or some of them were claiming they should read it.
D: Although there was a debate whether they should read the result from a list made by H or the one by I – as the other was made with their birthday-order and the other in the order of their beauty.
E: Hehe…
F: *Smirk* They also debated where the uneven number should go as seven doesn’t divide into three so nicely – and there were two different solutions offered…
G: Ohh, shut up!
B: And D was voted down by E and F – and we know F is a wolf and are almost sure E is one too.
A: So you didn’t follow the procedure last Night?
B: Of course not.
C: It was so obvious…
D: But we wanted to be sure.
E: Well, we tried to outvote you.
F: We did.
G: But we’re always going to be the majority here…
B: Did you hear K withdrew from the game?
C: So?
D: Well how about the list then?
E: Teehee…
F: Pick your choise… *grins*
B: But I already voted…
C: Will G be actually coming back?
D: Will he notice that part in the thread? I thought he said he was going to be in a hurry and just plain vote…
E: Teehee…
F: *grins*

[Nogrod]

Sorry.

It felt too much fun to figure out a game in the Dead Thread with "our instructions". :D

Let them be and help as as well as they can - and let us fight here.

PS. And like I said, I am up to trying this info-channeling toDay - there's probably little they know or can do toDay. But sooner or later they start to know things more than we do, and then we should not hinder or discourage them from helping us as best as they can.

EDIT: Btw. I see the logic of the Scenario 2 doesn't actually hold... but well, who cares. It was meant more to be fun and pointig a possiböle problems than being exactly logical to the end... :rolleyes:

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I was thinking it was taking way too long for Nogrod to give the village a reason to lynch him. :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I think I want to give Legate a re-read today if I get time. He is one of the ones who have seemingly fought to keep discussion on the dead thread and not on who the wolves are (at least, in my opinion).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Sorry.

It felt too much fun to figure out a game in the Dead Thread with "our instructions". :D
*shudders*
For your information, I was glaring at the screen in disbelief for quite a while after seeing this.

Let them be and help as as well as they can - and let us fight here.

PS. And like I said, I am up to trying this info-channeling toDay - there's probably little they know or can do toDay. But sooner or later they start to know things more than we do, and then we should not hinder or discourage them from helping us as best as they can.

Well, yes. I mean we can always adjust things later. But please let's not try to discredit the option now. I mean disagreeing, testing is one thing, sabotage is another.

I was on the Dead Thread in one of the previous games, so it isn't like I don't know what it looks like there. But the last time, the thing that was frustrating there was exactly when the Living could not agree on anything.

Aanyway. It is getting later here. Not that I am in a hurry in the objective sense, but I think still going to sleep at reasonable hour would be nice.

I still wanted to take a closer look at Nerwen. And maybe also at others.

Btw, also wanted to remark on this, but got distracted:

The problem is that it's pretty hard to draw conclusions from there as baddies as well as goodies might have jumped on the band-wagon in the end - the former to blend in and the latter to secure there is no draw on votes.

That being said I'm a bit uneasy with how easily people jumped on Zil-wagon with quite little to argue for it (Pervinca might be pardoned - and s/he (?) voted quite early only to tie Zil with others in the tally). Sure, I myself somewhat suspected him, but I tend to do that everytime we play, so I'd not take that as a reason to actually vote for him, at least myself.

The bandwagon is actually quite an interesting thing indeed. Now obviously we can discount Pervinca, but that makes it interesting to consider when and who joined that bandwagon. I would like to go through it one more time as well. And now I am actually also really interested in learning Inzil's role, also after I have been re-reading a lot of the thread - many things could come into different light if we know his role. So one more reason to actually learn this.

EDIT: x-ed with Eomer and Shasta

[Nogrod]

And now I am actually also really interested in learning Inzil's role, also after I have been re-reading a lot of the thread - many things could come into different light if we know his role. So one more reason to actually learn this.Agreed.

I'm for it toDay as well. Not as a principle, and not for several Days. There's only three of them there and so not much to find out yet (two Night-kills and one lynch only).

We just need to agree, rather sooner than later, which "table" we'd wish to be used. Nerwen's list seems to be the latest. Is that good for everyone (Pervinca excluded)?

I'll copy it here.

Proposed Empowerment List

ZIL = PREY
Boromir88
Brinniel
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Eönwë
Lalaith

ZIL = PREDATOR
Legate of Amon Lanc
Loslote
Mithalwen
Nerwen

NONE OF THE ABOVE
Nogrod
(Pervinca Took)
satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin

[Loslote]

Sorry I only showed up so late in the Day! I'm happy with the plan as stated mostly recently by Lalaith, and I would suggest we stop making changes now, to prevent ourselves from pulling the rug out from under the feet of the Dead.

I am realizing now how frustrating it is not to be able to rely on my impressions from previous Days. For example, I was thinking to myself that Nog seemed more innocent with how consistent his opinion on the Dead Thread is, and with how he's continued to be consistent despite being the only person with that opinion - when I realized that an innocent Nog could have started down that path, and a newly evil Nog would have then been forced to keep it up, so the consistency tells us nothing. :rolleyes:

I do think Brinn, and to a lesser extentShasta and Sally, seem a reserved. Shasta's been sick, and Sally just hasn't been around much, but Brinn has been here and still comes off as holding back from the fray, which is a bit of a red flag, EW-wise.

However, Brinn has also focused mostly on actual wolf-hunting, where I might expect the EW to harp on the Dead Thread a little more - come off as helpful while not actually tying themself to the wolves in any way. So I'm on the fence about her.

I don't like that Eönwë keeps focusing on the Dead Thread, but since it was his plan to begin with, I could see where he might feel obligated to keep talking about it. I do suspect him still, I think his posts these past two Days have come off as more self-aware, but again, that could just be because he feels defensive of his Dead Thread plan. I'm not sure. I don't trust him, though.

I've felt pretty good about Legate, but I do see what Shasta is saying about him focusing maybe overly much on the Dead Thread. I'll have to take more of a look at that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Agreed.

I'm for it toDay as well. Not as a principle, and not for several Days. There's only three of them there and so not much to find out yet (two Night-kills and one lynch only).

We just need to agree, rather sooner than later, which "table" we'd wish to be used. Nerwen's list seems to be the latest. Is that good for everyone (Pervinca excluded)?

I'll copy it here.

I thought we have agreed on this hours and hours ago! That was why I was against casting any doubt on it again. Now would be late! (Like, the Dead might have gone to sleep for all we know.)

[Lalaith]

Yes please lets just say we've all agreed on it and lets stop talking about it...

I am torn on my voting. As I said before, I'd like to vote for Boro but don't want to do it in his absence. And I'd like to see some more people turning up, and the talk to turn to hunting wolves.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Legate's a curious one; like, he's posted a lot (as usual) and I've quite enjoyed his thoughts (again, as usual) but I don't see that he's actually suspected a single person - apart from Boro, who obviously was doing things to attract attention. I can't remember if this is normal for Legate, or if he's trying to be present without being controversial.

[Nogrod]

I can't remember if this is normal for Legate, or if he's trying to be present without being controversial.There is actually a deeper truth in this than just how is it with Legate. Most baddies like to be agreeable and avoid suspecting anyone - or at least several people openly or heavily (especially if they are around) .

Sure there are exceptions to the rule, but most of the time it holds.

[Mithalwen]

I thought we have agreed on this hours and hours ago! That was why I was against casting any doubt on it again. Now would be late! (Like, the Dead might have gone to sleep for all we know.)

cf my post 385 Four Hours ago...for the love of Eru... *muttering* if they can put man on the Moon, why can't they put all of them up there...

[satansaloser2005]

Not caught up, but FYI, I should be home for good in about 30 minutes. Back soon.

[Nogrod]

Just getting my gut feelings in order...

Brinn doesn't post a loads but posts and is making sense. I like it. Same goes more or less with Lalaith (we need to open a Sancerre one Day!). Now both could be evil as well, but they are not ringing any evil-bells in my mind, at least yet.

Shasta and Mith post less - especially less of substance (whatever that is - let's not go back to that discussion) but Shasta makes me more worried than Mith. That is kind of normal and I wouldn't make any strong inferences on that either way.

Sally I believe to be innocent, at least now - but a pretty decent turn-candidate as well. So one to truly watch, but probably not evil yet...

Nerwen is my eternal enigma - I always suspect her (most of the times being correct - I feel!) and I know she's good in this. But does that merit a vote as itself? Probably not at this stage.

Eomer I find hard to read - which is normal as well. On average I see him positively as trying to stir things a little - but maybe his carefulness should warn me? Anyway, he's one I might consider voting because of his laid back stirring of the pot.

Legate I have a bad feeling with even if I can't quite point into any exact thing. He's being his normal self-doubting and pondering self but has also kind of laid low being almost over-round-about. One of my possible vote-candidates.

I'm not the first one to notice Boro's game has been a bit odd - and with the self-vote episode (which was actually pretty safe for him) it does look weird at some points. At the same time, I could see an innocent Boro taking the fun-road into the game and just enjoy that kind of a game. The problem is that he could be turned and then be pretty hard to lynch.

So Lottie and Eönwe then? Both have a tendency to try and steer the game, and I get somewhat evil vibes from both with the way they play. Lottie has been more easy toDay (which could just be wisdom), Eönwe is the kind of very cool and intelligent driver / second Phantom or the one who called the evil to take him into her service (or was given this role by the EW on N1).

[Eönwë]

Got delayed a bit longer than I'd hoped. Catching up now.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm sure the GW has thought about this a lot more than I have, but can we expect a visitor to go straight into the dead thread tomorrow? Seems like that role is made to be used quickly. I'm pleased that we seem to be getting through a day without the duel; think it benefits the good side. It's possible that us ordos are hugely outnumbered just now, though maybe more likely that the GW and the EW, at least once, picked the same person.

[Eönwë]

Ok, well since Wizard tactics have been discussed a bit at this point, I'm just going to say it outright: I think if the GW knows who the EW is, they should really think about dueling soon.

Our worst-case scenario at this point is 4 baddies and 8 goodies. That means that if we don't get rid of the EW, we would have to lynch (or hunter-kill, or visitor-pick) a wolf both toDay (or toNight) and toMorrow (or toMorrow Night) to not lose the game. And if it's not the worst-case scenario, stopping the EW from creating any more wolves would be really good.

[Nerwen]

Hello, all. And farewell, Pervinca.. This was probably not the easiest game to start off with- they're usually not this complicated. Hope you'll give it another try sometime!

Thoughts-

Nogrod's continued preoccupation with the Dead is really starting to raise flags for me. When I checked out earlier I thought the matter had settled, and then to find him still banging on about it hours later...:(

Then there's Legate-a few people (including Nogrod) have mentioned him as being slightly "off" toDay, and that a bit of a vibe I was getting myself with his Lommyalysis- especially as regards myself, as though he was quietly sounding people out as to whether they'd "like" to suspect me. But that could be paranoia on my part. Player analyses do lend themselves to that kind of thing, after all.
Edit: x'd since Nog.

[Nogrod]

Sorry to be this kind of an Owl of Minerva only flying after the fact - but with some hindsight (which I myself did acquire just now thinking about it) I could say that those who were very well on top of the rules on D1 and suggested a no-lynch policy are to me somewhat suspicious now.

I mean whatever we think about the possibility of the Dead Thread to help us, a no-lynch on D1 certainly robbed us one vote from them. And by default that should be the aim of the evil-side - especially as they didn't know beforehand, how the discussion on the Dead-vote issue would go on D1.

Now did the evil-ones saw this already beforehand or did they (or one of them - granting there was a wolf and an EW already on D1 which seems plausible) realize it only during the Day1?


Here are the one's I'd raise my eyebrow on...

Lottie was strongly for a no-lynch early on - and seemed to be on top of things. She voted to bring a tie.

Eomer is the same but disappears with no vote at all.

Legate was kind of going to-and-fro and ended up favouring no-vote (and tried to help organize it)

Eönwe first said no lynch is a fee ride for the wolves but then ended up suggesting a no lynch deal with his rigid system of tying the dead vote (the benefits of which he was actually cancelling with the no-lynch!).

Boro was a vocal - even literary supporter of a lynch unless the time came - and saved Lottie from lynching by voting himself.

My vote might go for one of these - and I believe there is at least one - if not two baddies in here. But also several innocents. But who is who?


PS. I'm trying to go to sleep toNight a bit earlier as well (being 2AM right now).


EDIT: X'd with Eönwe & Nerwen

EDIT2: Added: the benefits of (which he was actually cancelling with the no-lynch!) to make the point clearer

[Eönwë]

In other words, while having a Visitor or two may be useful, keeping the EW alive might mean that we might not even get to a point where the knowledge of the Dead Thread can save us.

edit: x-ed with Nerwen and Nog.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I went through some stuff and now I am trying to sort my thoughts. I managed to read Nerwen's posts; the thing is, she's been posting a lot, but like 90% of it is providing reference (especially on Day 1). That makes her look helpful and all, but objectively, it doesn't really say anything. Also she was somewhat wishy-washy on her vote:
So, I'm probably going to vote Zil, not so much for the "slip" as for his reaction to my rather low-key probing, also for voting me with what frankly looks to me like forced suspicion.

My problem here is that I fear my judgement may be coloured by a.) the fact that it's me he's been voting and b.) the fact his playing style tends to be rather creepy regardless of role. Hmmn.

Otherwise, my mind isn't still at ease about Boro, but he hasn't really been around. He was also very late on the Zil bandwagon, which could be a good spot for a Wolf to simply hide a vote. (And if Zil was a Wolf, and Boro as well, then it would probably also be a place to simply dump a vote since the bandwagon was practically finished at that point.)

If I am looking at the votes, Eönwë's vote has a similar quality. The earlier votes for Zil were still at the time when they actually mattered (it could have changed things), so that is a different case and what they meant would show better once we know Zil's role. At the same time, any of the early votes for separate people could have been throwaway, but they still commited to a statement, unlike the votes added to already big pile of other votes.

I think I will now do some summary and try to figure out whom to vote. It's pretty difficult when there is no known role, since practically everything can be interpreted both ways.

EDIT: x-ed with some Eönwës, Nerwen, and Nogrod

[Nogrod]

Eönwe: please stop talking about Wizards and Visitors. Talk of people to vote toDay - and why exactly them.

[Loslote]

Sorry to be this kind of an Owl of Minerva only flying after the fact - but with some hindsight (which I myself did acquire just now thinking about it) I could say that those who were very well on top of the rules on D1 and suggested a no-lynch policy are to me somewhat suspicious now.

I mean whatever we think about the possibility of the Dead Thread to help us, a no-lynch on D1 certainly robbed us one vote from them. And by default that should be the aim of the evil-side - especially as they didn't know beforehand, how the discussion on the Dead-vote issue would go on D1.

I still *strongly* disagree. The Dead would have known no more than we did if they had had a vote on Day 2. They would not have been able to vote to reveal any roles yet at that point, so they would have had no more information than we did. "Robbing" us of one uninformed vote in favor of having another person still alive to give their own uninformed vote - and be able to defend it - does not seem like a bad trade to me.

I really can't figure you out - your consistency made me think that you were more likely innocent, but I'm not sure that argument holds up in this game format. I disagree with you on a lot of the game mechanic interpretation, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're evil. You do seem to see the people who disagree with you as evil, though, which might be a wolf trying to produce suspicions out of thin air rather than actually looking at posts and analyzing behavior, since that's more likely to lead to a packmate. I'm torn on what to think of you.

EDIT: xed with Nog

[Eönwë]

Eönwe first said no lynch is a fee ride for the wolves but then ended up suggesting a no lynch deal with his rigid system of tying the dead vote (which he was actually cancelling with the no-lynch!).
Nope. As I said clearly at the time, a no-lynch on D1 means we start with a presumed innocent (i.e. a wolf-kill) in the Dead Thread.

I didn't want to say too much at the time to give the wolves ideas (and I'm not exactly sure how much I said), but the point is that this means that when the D1 lynchee joins, if the system is being followed, their role will be revealed either outright by Kuru or by their failure to cooperate. This then means which means that the next presumed innocent (i.e. the N2 wolf-kill) could make sure that the role of the D1 lynchee could be successfully communicated to group.

A plan that hopefully has played out, but certainly would've been almost certain to (barring exceptional possibilities such as the EW sacrificing a wolf) if it hadn't been sabotaged by a certain person.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I mean whatever we think about the possibility of the Dead Thread to help us, a no-lynch on D1 certainly robbed us one vote from them. And by default that should be the aim of the evil-side - especially as they didn't know beforehand, how the discussion on the Dead-vote issue would go on D1.
What? Nope, that was one of the strongest reasons people put for it - the first time the Dead could vote on anything was Day 2, so they would not know about what their own roles were. So they could not pass us information, because they didn't have any. And if you are arguing for that they could have given us their vote in the way you have been advocating - i.e. not passing information, but simply empowering someone - then it doesn't make any sense, because in our case, the person who would have been dead was instead still living and among us, so their vote counted anyway. So there was no loss to that in regards to the amount of people participating and so on. (Also if you had two members of the Dead thread, their "just empowering" votes could have easily also canceled each other, and then there would be nothing.)

So really.

EDIT: x-ed with Nog, Lottie and Eönwë

[Nerwen]

Okay, I went through some stuff and now I am trying to sort my thoughts. I managed to read Nerwen's posts; the thing is, she's been posting a lot, but like 90% of it is providing reference (especially on Day 1). That makes her look helpful and all, but objectively, it doesn't really say anything. Also she was somewhat wishy-washy on her vote:
Originally Posted by Nerwen
So, I'm probably going to vote Zil, not so much for the "slip" as for his reaction to my rather low-key probing, also for voting me with what frankly looks to me like forced suspicion.

My problem here is that I fear my judgement may be coloured by a.) the fact that it's me he's been voting and b.) the fact his playing style tends to be rather creepy regardless of role. Hmmn.
Wishy-washy nothing. I had genuine doubts, and I stated them. (I may also have been getting a trifle jittery, giving that my merely pointing out Zil's possibly suspicious behaviour had got me jumped on surprisingly hard.)

Edit: x'd since Legate #425.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Sorry to be this kind of an Owl of Minerva only flying after the fact - but with some hindsight (which I myself did acquire just now thinking about it) I could say that those who were very well on top of the rules on D1 and suggested a no-lynch policy are to me somewhat suspicious now.

I mean whatever we think about the possibility of the Dead Thread to help us, a no-lynch on D1 certainly robbed us one vote from them. And by default that should be the aim of the evil-side - especially as they didn't know beforehand, how the discussion on the Dead-vote issue would go on D1.

Well, if we by some miracle lynched a wolf on Day 1, then that wolf would certainly have gone against the other dead person in the dead thread on Day 2, so I'm not seeing how this cost the living any info.

[Nogrod]

I still *strongly* disagree. The Dead would have known no more than we did if they had had a vote on Day 2. They would not have been able to vote to reveal any roles yet at that point, so they would have had no more information than we did. "Robbing" us of one uninformed vote in favor of having another person still alive to give their own uninformed vote - and be able to defend it - does not seem like a bad trade to me.
But with two rather than one in the Dead Thread they could have checked on of them and deal the information to us? Okay. We need to check up the rules. If you're correct - then I was wrong and vice versa... I'll do it (darn clock going that fast...)

EDIT: X'd with many...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That all being said, I am really starting to worry about Nog, because from sabotaging the whole Dead thing... I mean, yes, we can each have different opinions on how it should be handled, but things like questioning it two hours before DL, or now this peculiar judgment of the no-lynch basically casting suspicion on the people who advocated it? With the dead thread thing, this constant poking seems like probing whether the link (or trust, reliability) between Dead and Living can be broken. Leaving options open is one thing, giving the Dead ideas that nobody will listen to you anyway is sabotage.

EDIT: x-ed with Nerwen, Eomer and Nog

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

All right, let's talk votes. I'm ready to vote for just about anyone - pretty much the only person I think might be innocent is Eonwe, for reasons stated previously. I still haven't decided what I think about Boro but inclined to leave him today. I'm also leaning very slightly towards Nerwen being innocent.

[Lalaith]

Why do you want to leave Boro today, Eomer? I've been concerned about voting for him in his absence, is that your reason too or is it something else?

[satansaloser2005]

Quick bursts of thought!

I agree that having no lynch on the first Day *could* have been a good idea because in this one case, it would be beneficial to have a guaranteed good person in the Dead Thread from the start(ish). That said, I find Steve's discussion of such things juxtaposed with his actions to be suspicious. That said, I'd have to delve into his posts with more time than I currently have in order to consider him as a lynch candidate toDay based solely on that point. I could go either way right now.

I'm terribly sad Pervinca dropped out. I hope you'll come back and join us for a calmer game!

Nogrod needs to be lynched for those long posts in which I thought I'd missed DL again. You jerk! :rolleyes: <3 On a more serious note, he seems normal enough at the moment; I have a niggling feeling of some kind, but as I can't yet place it, I can't in good conscience consider him a candidate.

Lottie seems to be taking that stern tone she does as a wolf. Mind, I don't disagree with most of her points, but the way in which she is interacting with other players makes me want to scratch her behind the ears. I'd be okay with voting her for her toDay.

My radar hasn't pegged Nerwen either way yet, which is always worrisome, but I also haven't been terribly present so far this game (sorry again!), so I'm placing that on the back burner for now until I do another in-depth read of the thread.

Eomer reads as his reasonable ordo self and also has had decent points from what I've been seeing. I'd like to keep him off the block.

Though I've seen him pull some crazy shenanigans, I don't see Boro self-voting with votes still hanging out in the open if he were a wolf (especially on the first Day), so while I don't find his actions flawless, I have enough doubt that I'd rather vote for someone else at the moment.



Posting and catching up.


x'd since Nerwen debating her wish-washiness ;)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

He's obviously been a bit weird since Day 1, but I'm not convinced it's evil; and since there's probably 2 wolves created since then, I prefer to look elsewhere for now.

[Nogrod]

Okay. here it is.
After there are TWO residents of the Dead Thread, every DAY the dead get to vote on giving one of the living an extra vote. The dead are subject to the same deadline as the living. The living will not know who among them will get an extra vote until it is revealed in the closing narration of the DAY.
So, if there are two Dead on D2, they are allowed to give an empowerment to someone's vote in the Living Thread. With a no lynch on D1 there wasn't two but only one. Correct?

Then:
Since in the anteroom of the afterlife it is hard to hide one’s true nature from one’s fellow residents, every NIGHT after there are TWO residents the dead get to vote for one among themselves to determine their true nature. The voted player will be described as either PREDATOR or PREY.Now how to read this?

If there would have been someone lynched on D1 and someone killed on N2 could they have voted on N2? Well, probably not as it could be the Night-killed only learned about her/his destiny just a few moments before the Night ended / the next Day started?


So I stand corrected.

But I also realise what made me think it otherwise - and it is this: Please Note: The threshold for the Dead Thread voting has been reduced to two since the Dead Thread will (presumably) not be filling up super-fast like the last Dead Thread game and I wanted to give the dead something to do sooner in the game. Yes, the first two residents of the Dead Thread will probably reflexively vote for each other for the role reveal…but then again, maybe they won’t.Now in a normal situation there would have been one dead by lynch and one by baddies - follows a Day in which there is no voting among the Dead about their identities - so comes Night and they can finally vote to see who they are - but they seem to be like two Days behind because they have to vote just between the two of them - and not include the one who enters that Night, if I read the rules correctly now.

Which is insane and totally making the Dead Thread crippled and null and void. It looks like I didn't read this closely enough. But being two days behind it's just more or less same if we didn't have the Dead thread at all (well, maybe somewhere very late in the game - if there was a late game in the first place).

:(

[Loslote]

At the moment, I am concerned about Nog and Eönwë, and I'm feeling a little wary of Legate and Brinn, but I'm not wildly suspicious of any of them. I definitely don't want to vote Legate or Brinn toDay, I don't have a concrete enough suspicion of either of them, and I've been back and forth on Nog so much this game that I don't know that I'm super comfortable voting for him, either. That leaves Eönwë by default, but I'm not eager to see him lynched, either. I could maybe be down with voting for Boro, if only because it would be too easy to write him off as playing weird this game and accidentally let a Borowolf through to the end. But I'm not super happy about any of the options.

EDIT: xed since Lalaith

[satansaloser2005]

Am I missing something, or have there not been any votes yet? I swore someone voted earlier.

[Nerwen]

He's obviously been a bit weird since Day 1, but I'm not convinced it's evil; and since there's probably 2 wolves created since then, I prefer to look elsewhere for now.
If you're talking about Boro, I concur. I don't really want to see him being toDay's "default" lynch.
Edit: x'd since quoted post.

[Eönwë]

So, to my mind, either Nog is on the right track, and I've ended up siding with an evil Lottie, Eomer and Legate trio; or Legate is right and Noghas been trying to sabotage our communication with the Dead Thread.

On which note, I don't like the way Nog tries to bring up the no-lynch thing against me and Legate and Lottie as if it's separate from us wanting to implement the plan, which he clearly disagrees with.

[Mithalwen]

I don't want to vote for Eomer, Nerwen, Brinniel or Lal. They have spoken sensibly on the whole. I am not convinced that the Dead t hr3ad discussion wasn't deliberately spun out

[satansaloser2005]

Agreeing with Eomer and Nerwen. To clarify my lynch preference....


1. Lottie (especially with her latest post, which rings false to me)
2. Steve
3. Nerwen (only in a pinch)


Begin the frenzied refreshing!


x'd since after Nerwen's 441

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Anyone for no-lynch today?

:p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Basically, I am sorely tempted at the moment to vote Nogrod. I would personally like to hear more from Boro. The submarines (especially Brinn, Mithalwen and Sally) would be next in line, but they also fall into the cathegory that I would prefer more data, otherwise it's mostly vote based on what they didn't do rather than what they did. Lalaith was a submarine too, but recently started posting much more and I can get a better read on her and wouldn't want to vote her toDay. Similarly with Shasta.

Eomer and Lottie I should probably re-check, but there wasn't anything that would make me vote them. Nerwen I just re-checked and also after her last response, I think I will just keep it at that for the time being. I am just wary of the fact that from her, one can expect anything. Some people have been suspecting Eönwë, but for myself, I didn't get any warning signs from his behavior that would make me suspect him now.

EDIT: x-ed probably since my last with a lot

[satansaloser2005]

Anyone for no-lynch today?

:p

Man, don't make me rethink my opinion of you.... :smokin:

[satansaloser2005]

Heads up: I am voting in five minutes just so I don't have trouble like yesterDay.

P.S. Even numbered post link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFCuE5rHbPA)! Only 500 more to 6k! :Merisu:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I do think I'm getting a bit of if/then information from mentioning Legate earlier. For example, should Legate turn out a wolf, I'd probably next look at Eomer and Lottie. Eomer in particular I found to be interestingly distance-y in a subtle saving way.

[Nogrod]

That all being said, I am really starting to worry about Nog, because from sabotaging the whole Dead thing... I mean, yes, we can each have different opinions on how it should be handled
...
this constant poking seems like probing whether the link (or trust, reliability) between Dead and Living can be broken. Leaving options open is one thing, giving the Dead ideas that nobody will listen to you anyway is sabotage.
I do stand corrected with the rules as I read them with thought now.

I do also think the Dead Thread is a waste of time now as well - and yes, we've wasted a lot of time discussing it as it is soo far behind the info it might give us is more or less useless. We might guess / interpret ToMorrow (D4) whether Zil was innocent on D2 (when there was two wolves at most!) - unless the game keeps going like seven Days or something (which is very improbable).

Uhh... the clock... :eek:

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Right, I'm not waiting til 5 minutes before deadline, because maybe the Dead are frantically waiting for us so they can make a decision. So I'm sticking with my previous vote.

++LOSLOTE

[Brinniel]

A look at the Inzil bandwagoners:

Lottie: She did bandwagon, but her reasoning that Inzil looked suspicious due to his defensiveness rather than the slip itself makes her vote look less suspicious to me. Aside from that, I do have some reservations about her, mainly for the same reason I voted her on Day 1.
Eonwe: His reasoning for suspicion of Inzil's seems to latch onto others', which is classic bandwagoning technique. More on him below.
Nerwen: She is the one who pointed out his slip. I found her eagerness to jump on him suspicious which is why I voted her. If Inzil is indeed innocent, I could see an evil Nerwen bluffing to make it look like an innocent-on-innocent spat. Or if he's evil...perhaps an evil-on-evil spat for the ultimate bluff, though that's more of a stretch.
Boro: I thought his self vote Day 1 looked innocent, but that could make him a good target for conversion the following Night. He reasoned yesterDay wanting to make it to the Dead Thread so that he wouldn't have to be the EW's pawn. The "I don't want to be turned" sort of act combined with his bandwagon vote doesn't sit well with me.

None the bandwagon voters look terribly innocent to me. There may be more to tell once we know Inzil's role.

I did mention yesterDay that those who focused more on the Dead Thread than the actual lynching could be suspicious. So let's look at that:

Nogrod: While he has provided other substance, a good portion of his talk has to do with the Dead Thread. And he's a bit chaotic about it, which concerns me.
Eonwe: While Nogrod is chaotic, Eonwe at least looks like he's trying to be helpful. I did mention yesterDay that his helpfulness makes him a good target for wolf conversion. So I could see him starting off the game genuinely trying to help the village strategize the Dead Thread, but then turn and as a wolf, give the illusion that he's trying to help all the while quietly manipulating us. Which is scary. And I don't like that he seems to continually draw focus away from toDay's lynch.
Legate: Actually, he didn't focus much on the Dead Thread yesterDay, but it has been a large portion of his subject matter toDay. Could the change in focus point to a newly turned wolf? Possibly. I may need to look at him further.

EDIT: X-ed with Nog and Eomer

[satansaloser2005]

As promised, but actually a little earlier, because I'm not going to change my mind.

++Lottie

Sorry, Pop. *scritches*


x'd since Nog's last

[Lalaith]

Goodness people, it's 15 minutes to deadline and no votes as far as I can see...I feel like we're like Bill, Bert and Tom, we're being kept chatting and arguing until we're all turned to stone.
Well I've been vacillating between Boro and Lottie for my vote toDay. It looks like (as I am writing this) that I'm first to vote and as my own doubts about voting Boro are seemingly echoed elsewhere in the village I'll go for
++Lottie

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Gah, now of course Nog in his last one backtracks, and now he's looking more genuine. Idk maybe I should just vote Boro again. I mean it isn't like he stopped being fishy.

Also when did it become so late!

EDIT: x-ed with all the votes. Here we go.

[Nerwen]

I'm tempted to vote Nog... but his Dead Thread rambling has gone on *so* long now, and he seems so oblivious to the fact that it's actually putting putting him in danger that I'm starting to turn around and wonder if maybe it is just innocent monomania rather than evil filibustering. But I have seen both from Nogrod in the past...

Edit: x'd since Legate at #446.

[Nogrod]

My gut feeling right now is to go after those who try to capitalize it with their clear understanding of the rules... :rolleyes:

Knowing them is no fault, but using it is. Just saying.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm temptec to vote Nog... but his Dead Thread rambling has gone on *so* long now, and he seems so oblivious to the fact that it's actually putting putting him in danger that I'm starting to turn around and wonder if maybe it is just innocent monomania rather than evil filibustering. But I have seen both from Nogrod in the past...
Word.

[Nogrod]

Thanks.

[satansaloser2005]

Thanks.

*snuggles*


So....five or so more minutes.

[Brinniel]

Since I found him concerning on both lists I just made:

++Eonwe

[Lalaith]

The Tom Bert and Bill stuff wasn't just a joke btw, I do think we were being deliberately distracted by one or more persons at the end there. Hmmm.

[Nerwen]

There's too many submarines, that's the other thing...:(

[Loslote]

Wow, again? At this point I may as well be lynched if only to take away the convenient vote from everyone else. :rolleyes::p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I don't want to just vote Nog now. Okay. Third time's the charm?

++Boro

EDIT: x-ed with like four. Seriously...

[Eönwë]

Since it doesn't look like I have time to go into detail toDay.

Nerwen - Nothing she's said makes her seem particularly suspicious.

Loslote - either one of the only other sane people on this or an evil genius. Can't tell which.

Boromir88 - Honestly, who knows what he's playing at. But there's also nothing particularly incriminating.

Shastanis Althreduin - Scary because he seems to be around but posts very little. Very under the radar.

satansaloser2005 - Posts too little (at least in terms of content). A bit better toDay, but maybe a turned wolf trying to seem less suspicious.

Eomer of the Rohirrim - Does seem a bit different toDay, but not in a bad way. More engaged in the conversation.

Lalaith - Same as Eomer.

Legate of Amon Lanc - I had my suspicions about him yesterDay, but I'm liking him more toDay. Could potentially be a wolf that feels that he has to continue along the same lines to avoid suspicion, but I'm ok with him for now.

Mithalwen - Keeps on saying that we should stop talking about the Dead Thread and our communication with it and instead talk about who seems suspicious, but doesn't really do much of the latter, instead complaining about our talking about the former. I don't really like this, but I also don't know if it's enough to base a suspicion off.

Nogrod - YesterDay I thought his disagreement on the Dead Thread seemed benign, but on reconsideration, I do actually agree with Legate that it looks like he he's trying to sabotage things. Not to mention his 'no-lynch' thing.

Brinniel - Seems to be posting more toDay. Again, maybe a new wolf, or maybe just has more to say.


We've now got to the point where potentially half of us have changed roles (though admittedly if the Visitor that Dies has been picked they wouldn't know), which makes everything a lot more confusing.

In general, I seem to be quite strongly flip-flopping on my suspicions.

People that I could consider lynching:
Nogrod - see above

The quieter ones - Shasta, Mithalwen, maybe Sally
Their quietness makes me uncomfortable and I feel like one of them is probably hiding something.

Lottie - her role could probably tell us quite a lot, but I don't know if I actually find her suspicious enough to vote for her. And given the numbers thing said above, I don't know if I'm willing to risk it.


edit: x-ed with so many

[Nogrod]

I'd still go for Boro, Eönwe, Lottie or Eomer.

[Loslote]

++Boro

Don't want to risk an evil Boro bluffing his way to victory. And I'm not evil, so killing me doesn't actually help anyone. :rolleyes:

[Nerwen]

Oh, well, it could be eithervway, and I suspect him more than Lottie,

++Nog

x'd since Lalaith at #462.

[Eönwë]

Lalaith , Eomer and Brinn deserve a closer look toMorrow, but I'm willing to give them a pass toDay.

[Kuruharan]

Same rule as yesterDAY as far as votes after my deadline post.

I've got a play to get to this evening.

[satansaloser2005]

Eomer-->Lottie
Sally-->Lottie* (2)
Lalaith-->Lottie* (3)
Brinn-->Steve
Legate-->Boro
Lottie-->Boro (2)
Nerwen-->Nog


*x'd


Two minutes remaining.

[Loslote]

Hey, Nog, if I'm about to die, does that make me the wisest person here? :p

[Eönwë]

++Nog

[Nogrod]

I might vote for Lottie to help my own chances of survival - and I do suspect her indeed - did it from the early on.

Now I'm just wondering whether it is the right thing to do - aka do I have a better choice that would also affect something...

[satansaloser2005]

GUYS, WE TALKED ABOUT THIS. DON'T START THIS AGAIN.

Two each for Boro and Nog, three for Lottie.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Still don't think EW is Lottie. Wolf maybe, though.

++Legate

[Nogrod]

Hey, Nog, if I'm about to die, does that make me the wisest person here? :p
We'll see it in the Dead thread... :rolleyes:

[Loslote]

I might vote for Lottie to help my own chances of survival - and I do suspect her indeed - did it from the early on.

But I thought the Dead Thread was where the game was played :smokin:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, just sayin' in case, now I am really having this creepy feeling I made a mistake about not voting Nogrod.

Ugh hey guys remember somebody was also empowered probably!!! This better not go in some weird way.

EDIT: x-ed with several

[Kuruharan]

The deadline has come.

Please stop posting.

[Nogrod]

++Eönwe

[Eönwë]

Ugh hey guys remember somebody was also empowered probably!!! This better not go in some weird way.
Oh no...


edit: woops

[satansaloser2005]

Ugh hey guys remember somebody was also empowered probably!!! This better not go in some weird way.

Hence the caps. Guys, seriously. :rolleyes:



x'd since the quoted post, and to Nog, HA!

[Nogrod]

Phhffftttt... :rolleyes:

[Nerwen]

Okay, just sayin' in case, now I am really having this creepy feeling I made a mistake about not voting Nogrod.

Ugh hey guys remember somebody was also empowered probably!!! This better not go in some weird way.

EDIT: x-ed with several
I 'm having a creepy feeling that maybe I shouldn't have voiced my doubts just before... Oh dear.

[Mithalwen]

Um I voted and my post isn't showing..not a scooby as to what happened.

[Kuruharan]

~~~Our Tale~~~

The guests spent the DAY in debate.

Except for when they paused to enjoy two theatrical performances.

Suddenly, at the conclusion of the second play, Brinniel stood to her feet and cried, "I FEEL STRANGELY EMPOWERED!". The other guests scratched their heads and ignored this...mostly.

It was about that time that the guests noticed the absence of one of their members.

They hunted high and low and then found a note that said, "Ha ha ha! I found the way out. Bye!"

Someone had escaped!

This rendered the situation almost intolerable. That and the fact that they had an unspoken feeling that someone, somewhere was churning out a series of eye-roll inducing puns.

Seizing upon one of their number, they threw Lottie on the guillotine and pulled the lever.

CLUNK!

Living
Nerwen
Boromir88
Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Lalaith
Legate of Amon Lanc
Mithalwen
Eönwë
Nogrod
Brinniel

The Dead
Morsul the Dark
Inziladun
Thinlómien
Loslote

Escaped
Pervinca Took (Ordo)

[Kuruharan]

The NIGHT was dark and full of buzzing.

Yes, buzzing again.

bzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZ *whoosh* CLANG *doink*

"Who put that there?"

Silence.

Silence without stillness. As the guests slept they felt the swirling of many powers around them.

All in all, it didn't lend itself to a restful NIGHT.

Dawn broke, as was its habit.

The guests assembled around the guillotine again. They set off in search of the route taken by the escapee.

On their way they found the body of Mithalwen who apparently tried to do the same in the NIGHT.

Well...

Living
Nerwen
Boromir88
Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Lalaith
Legate of Amon Lanc
Eönwë
Nogrod
Brinniel

The Dead
Morsul the Dark
Inziladun
Thinlómien
Loslote
Mithalwen

Escaped
Pervinca Took (Ordo)

[Boromir88]

So the Dead tell us Zil is innocent. I say continue on and ask if they checked Lottie.

Divide it up into 3 groups again...Lottie is prey, predator or none of the above.

My weirdness early on was purely out of a desire to join in the dead thread, which I have never managed to make in 3 chances now. I said it was what my heart greatly desired. Alas, it seems I'm cursed to not ever partake in the Dead community...early on I would have really only been effecting my own luck in this dwarven game, but now I don't want to do anything that could be harming the GW.

Yesterday I was completely booked from 10am-9pm my time. But that's the only day I had a major scheduling conflict. So, you all take that or leave it, I've been shut out of the white shores again it seems. It's fine.

[Boromir88]

The theory that I was a sacrificial wolf defending EW Lottie is now debunked though...so yes, I'm going to be suspicious of those pushing that interpretation. I said I didn't do it for her, but I guess I should be used to not being taken at face value.

[Nerwen]

Okay, we really need to get a wolf toDay.

I'm also curious as to the kill-choice. I mean, it fits the pattern of unsuspected players being killed- but at ths point, what does it say that it was her and nobody else?

[Nerwen]

The theory that I was a sacrificial wolf defending EW Lottie is now debunked though...so yes, I'm going to be suspicious of those pushing that interpretation. I said I didn't do it for her, but I guess I should be used to not being taken at face value.
And now that we know Lottie was not the EW, perhaps we should look at how that notion came to be so prominent?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I don't know if I'd call Lonmy unsuspected at the time of her death - I certainly suspected her, at the very least. Mith I do agree on, though, I can't think of anyone who really suspected her.

[Nerwen]

I don't know if I'd call Lonmy unsuspected at the time of her death - I certainly suspected her, at the very least. Mith I do agree on, though, I can't think of anyone who really suspected her.
Not widely suspected, I meant.

Well, now that you're here, my treasure, I'd like to hear your thoughts on everyone.

Especially Nog. I am thinking maybe I shouldn't have started second-guessing myself at the end there, because on reading through his game he has posted a *lot*, but nearly all of it has consisted of arguing the undesirability of trying to communicate with the Dead, with an interlude where he became equally preoccupied with the question of whether the rules technically allowed Wolf1 to have been created Night2. And by yesterDay he was becoming downright obstructive. Yet, as I said, there is also the fact that he just kept on going even after he was obviously attracting suspicion- shouldn't a baddie have been more cautious?

[Brinniel]

Mith isn't a surprising choice to me as she seems like a no-trace kill. I don't recall her really being suspected by anyone and with her vote not getting posted due to technical difficulties, the Living might never know her suspicions yesterDay.

[Nerwen]

Mith isn't a surprising choice to me as she seems like a no-trace kill. I don't recall her really being suspected by anyone and with her vote not getting posted due to technical difficulties, the Living might never know her suspicions yesterDay.
Ah, but why do a no trace kill at this stage?

[Brinniel]

Ah, but why do a no trace kill at this stage?
Not sure, perhaps some players were starting to suspect them and they worried killing them off instead would be too obvious. Or if there's a hunter, that one of them would be targeted.

Or maybe they chose her because they didn't think she would be protected by the ranger.

[Brinniel]

Okay, I said I would take a closer look at Legate, and I decided to do so tonight while I have time.

I believe someone mentioned earlier he seems wishy-washy in his opinions and I see what they mean.

On Day One, he stated he liked the non-lynch idea, but was non-committal about it.
2. Our chances of hitting either a baddie or a Gifted are really low toDay, which means this might be one of the few situations in which a no lynch Day One makes sense. Plus, since there aren't many wolves, they'll have to be a lot less careful about pack behavior, which means one of our standby clues won't come into play at first.Numerically, it might make sense, if the village can agree on this. On the other hand, Morsul has a point in saying that the odds won't necessarily change very much. But I am all for at least considering that option.
By the end of the Day, he votes for Boromir and indicates that he's trying to tie the votes. Maybe he was, but with the last-minute timing, an evil Legate could've just said that while hoping for a lynch.

He also latched onto the Nerwen-Inzil spat without fully committing to it:
Inziladun - okay, now upon re-reading, his reaction to Nerwen escalated in such a rapid way that it really makes my alarm bells ring. However, all his posting earlier was pretty normal, so I would prefer not to vote him solely on the basis of that one instance.

In general, all of his opinions on other players are a bit wishy-washy and non-committal...except for Boromir.

Legate voted for Boro all three Days, and even with those votes, his suspicions of Boro weren't exactly strong ones.

YesterDay, I mentioned the possibility of Legate being a newly turned wolf with his change of focus on the Dead Thread. And he did talk a lot about the Dead Thread, though I don't think he was as distracting about it as others. I honestly don't see any real shift in behavior, and so I'm starting to think if he is a baddie, there's a good chance he has been for awhile.

In conclusion, Legate has moved up on my suspicion list. He's joined by Eonwe and Nogrod, and to a lesser extent, Nerwen and Boro for reasons I listed yesterDay.

Alright, it's getting really late, so it's off to bed for me.

[Boromir88]

Especially Nog. I am thinking maybe I shouldn't have started second-guessing myself at the end there, because on reading through his game he has posted a *lot*, but nearly all of it has consisted of arguing the undesirability of trying to communicate with the Dead, with an interlude where he became equally preoccupied with the question of whether the rules technically allowed Wolf1 to have been created Night2. And by yesterDay he was becoming downright obstructive. Yet, as I said, there is also the fact that he just kept on going even after he was obviously attracting suspicion- shouldn't a baddie have been more cautious?

Unless he's not the only wolf and believes whenever he got turned his days are numbered, so why not obstruct? And there would be at least a days delay to the living if he's lynched and a wolf.

It probably doesn't help hearing from me, but if I'm ever turned, it's very similar to how I would be playing the part of a wolf if I knew the EW hadn't spent all choices yet.