Lord of the Rings TV series gets multi-season order at Amazon [Archive]

Victariongreyjoy

11-13-2017, 01:10 PM

The company has made a multi-season production commitment to a television adaptation of J.R.R. Tolkien’s fantasy epic The Lord of the Rings.

It’s a major deal securing one of the biggest brands in pop culture for what’s likely to be one of the most expensive TV shows ever made.

But there’s a catch, creatively speaking: The series will explore storylines set before the events in the first LOTR novel, The Fellowship of the Ring. In other words: The war to destroy the One Ring as chronicled in Peter Jackson’s Oscar-winning trilogy of films will not be told in the TV version. So this story is either set before The Hobbit or in between The Hobbit and LOTR.

This something we’ve seen with other recent TV series when they tackle major cinematic titles with certain rights restrictions. Like how Fox’s Gotham can tell the story of young Bruce Wayne but not Batman, how FX’s Legion and Fox’s The Gifted have to avoid using the term “X-Men” even though they’re X-Men projects, or how Syfy’s upcoming series based on The Purge films will be set in between actual Purges.

Amazon’s deal includes a potential addition of a spin-off series as well.

“We are delighted that Amazon, with its longstanding commitment to literature, is the home of the first-ever multi-season television series for The Lord of the Rings,” said Matt Galsor, a representative for the Tolkien Estate and Trust and HarperCollins. “Sharon and the team at Amazon Studios have exceptional ideas to bring to the screen previously unexplored stories based on J.R.R. Tolkien’s original writings.”

http://ew.com/tv/2017/11/13/lord-of-the-rings-tv-series/

Inziladun

11-13-2017, 01:25 PM

It’s a major deal securing one of the biggest brands in pop culture for what’s likely to be one of the most expensive TV shows ever made.

Therein lies the key. There's money, boys! Yee Haw! :rolleyes:

*Sigh* I just can't separate the motives from the actual product. I had the same issue with PJ's movies when I first learned of their coming, When profit is the objective in adaptations of existing works, changes are going to be allowed based on the bottom line, and fidelity to the spirit of the original goes right out the (round) window. They can bloody well keep it.

Valesse

11-13-2017, 04:25 PM

I'm somewhat comforted by the fact that the Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos is already known to be a big fan of the fantasy genre and that he was directly involved in discussing this project with the Tolkien Estate and Trust. I want to believe that he is passionate about these works and will try to use his position to keep things as canon as possible. Sure, it is ultimately about the money in the end, but the Matt Galsor snippet from the Estate and HarperCollins representative gives me hope:

"...the team at Amazon Studios have exceptional ideas to bring to the screen previously unexplored stories based on J.R.R. Tolkien’s original writings.”

What gets my eyebrow raised is the fact that the Tolkien Estate was the one that approached Amazon, Netflix, HBO, etc. to begin with. To me this could be either very exciting in that the Estate wants to be involved in the creation of a series or troubling if the case is that the Estate is interested more in the financial gain of the project and would, therefore, be more likely to accept more... well... Tauriels.

http://deadline.com/2017/11/amazon-the-lord-of-the-rings-tv-series-multi-season-commitment-1202207065/

ArcusCalion

11-13-2017, 04:41 PM

Therein lies the key. There's money, boys! Yee Haw!

*Sigh* I just can't separate the motives from the actual product. I had the same issue with PJ's movies when I first learned of their coming, When profit is the objective in adaptations of existing works, changes are going to be allowed based on the bottom line, and fidelity to the spirit of the original goes right out the (round) window. They can bloody well keep it. I'm sorry.... What? Literally every project has the goal to make money. If they did not, they would not be made in the first place. Do you not understand capitalism?

Kuruharan

11-13-2017, 04:57 PM

It is a fearsome struggle to constrain myself to socially acceptable vocabulary to describe my reaction to this news.

There is no reason for somebody who respects Tolkien's work to be optimistic about the end product.

Jeff Bezos being a "fan" of the fantasy genre could mean almost anything...in fact, I feel worse about it because you get some crazy ideas being a "fan" of something.

That the focus of this project is going to be the vaporous netherworld of "before the Fellowship of the Ring" is just a blanket statement from the beginning that they intend to pull whatever they feel like pulling out of their hindquarters.

At least they are kind of honest about it.

Perhaps they will at least have enough of a sense of humor to rename Butterbur to Butterfinger.

EDIT: I figured out the best way to phrase my dismay, to wit: "I have a bad feeling that this TV series is going to make The Hobbit films look tasteful and well-crafted by comparison."

Zigûr

11-13-2017, 06:14 PM

So, after all, it is just a "glorified fan fiction" show, expanding little bits and pieces of narrative, not really an adaptation?

That destroys what little interest I had. All this will serve to do is perpetuate the cloying atmosphere of misunderstanding and misinformation surrounding Professor Tolkien's work - this one man's lifelong labour of love - in the public consciousness.

Of course, it's not being made for people like me. I'm sure it will please a certain kind of audience, however.

Nerwen

11-13-2017, 07:20 PM

Ah, so it's not meant to be an adaptation of "The Lord of the Rings" itself, but rather some sort of "Before the Fellowship" exploration of the characters' backstories, as detailed in the elusive Appendix X? And it's going to be the *most expensive series ever made?*

Sounds like fun...:cool:

Galadriel55

11-13-2017, 08:24 PM

Still, all the younger wizards and elves of Middle Earth can’t guarantee that this Lord of the Rings TV series will be the next Game of Thrones. For one thing, the HBO series started as a very faithful adaptation with a built-in audience of loyal book fans.

See? It's not that difficult to understand what fans want in a book-based series.

And considering that GOT book fans forgave the show quite a few deviations given that it captures the essence, the same could be applied to other fandoms as well.

The other thing about "the new GOT" is that it threatens to turn into this (https://nerdist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/duel_game_of_thrones_x_lord_of_the_rings_by_murilo _araujo-d7gtmxi.jpg): a competition between Tolkien's characters and GRRM's works over who is more badass, which is not a comparison that will yield anything productive.

Oh my god... this is the hybrid. Foreseen by the prophecy which speaks of a hybrid of two warrior fandoms, which threatens the existence of the universe. The hybrid risks stopping time itself! Watch for some doctor involved in the affair.
(Cheers to all the Whovians more patiently awaiting the Christmas special)

Inziladun

11-13-2017, 08:44 PM

I'm sorry.... What? Literally every project has the goal to make money. If they did not, they would not be made in the first place. Do you not understand capitalism?

I understand that money clouds judgement when people are making the call as to what to add, embellish, or cut from original works when adapting them to bigger, "better" media. If that's your thing, run with it. No drama.

Kuruharan

11-13-2017, 10:15 PM

And considering that GOT book fans forgave the show quite a few deviations given that it captures the essence, the same could be applied to other fandoms as well.

That's far from true in all corners of the fandom. There are places where there is frenzied rending of garments and gnashing of teeth at the changes...aggravated by the fact that the show is now at the point where we don't know what is a deviation and what isn't.

At least we didn't have to deal with that.

davem

11-14-2017, 12:09 AM

Still convinced this will be a Sil adaptation. The Tolkien Estate don't own the film rights to LotR or The Hobbit, so they can't be involved in the sale of them to Amazon. It's Middle-earth related, so it's not Smith, or Niggle. And if Amazon have paid $200mil for the rights, its something significant. As to my feelings-well, it would be potentially amazing to see Feanor and the rebellion, the great wars, the Fall of Gondolin... but not if they're going for a GoT vibe.
That said, given that I avoid Amazon on principle, and will continue to do so until they sort out their business practices, its all a bit academic for me.

Nerwen

11-14-2017, 01:45 AM

Still convinced this will be a Sil adaptation. The Tolkien Estate don't own the film rights to LotR or The Hobbit, so they can't be involved in the sale of them to Amazon.
Good point, but the article *calls* it a "LotR series" and says specifically that the deal concerns "global TV rights to 'Lord of the Rings'". Even the direct quote from the representative for the Estate and Harper Collins calls it "the first-ever multi-season television series for The Lord of the Rings".

davem

11-14-2017, 02:17 AM

Good point, but the article *calls* it a "LotR series" and says specifically that the deal concerns "global TV rights to 'Lord of the Rings'". Even the direct quote from the representative for the Estate and Harper Collins calls it "the first-ever multi-season television series for The Lord of the Rings".
I'd take that mention of Lord of the Rings as a reference to something the public recognise. How many people know what the Silmarillion is, or would associate it with Lord of the Rings? And the main thing to keep in mind is that the rights to LotR still belong with the Zaentz Company, so what would Amazon be paying $200 mil to the Tolkien Estate for?

Kuruharan

11-14-2017, 09:09 AM

My bet is on a young Aragorn, although some kind of adaptation of the Sil might be possible.

I guess if they really want to go full on Game of Thrones they could do the Kin-strife.

EDIT: I take it all back. It just hit me: The Children of Hurin.

It has the grimness, the unhappy ending, and the requisite incest.

EDIT EDIT: Although, who owns the rights to The Children of Hurin?

davem

11-14-2017, 09:27 AM

My bet is on a young Aragorn, although some kind of adaptation of the Sil might be possible.

I guess if they really want to go full on Game of Thrones they could do the Kin-strife.

Warners have licensed the movie rights for the Aragorn story from Zaentz as it is, so there's no need for any Estate involvement, let alone the handing over of all that money to them. I wouldn't rule out some Third Age stuff, I'm just genuinely confused about what the Estate has to sell, if it isn't The Sil stuff.

Kuruharan

11-14-2017, 09:32 AM

Warners have licensed the movie rights for the Aragorn story from Zaentz as it is, so there's no need for any Estate involvement, let alone the handing over of all that money to them. I wouldn't rule out some Third Age stuff, I'm just genuinely confused about what the Estate has to sell, if it isn't The Sil stuff.

I've revised my original opinion (see above), but this does pose an interesting question of where the line is regarding what is considered included within a particular work.

The most generous interpretation would say that anything included in the appendices of LOTR could be considered off limits, but I can't think that interpretation would hold water because that would be so sweeping.

Zigûr

11-14-2017, 09:38 AM

I can't substantiate this, but I feel like I remember there being some kind of grey area due to the substantial overlap between The Silmarillion and the Appendices.

I think I've mentioned before my "maybe I just dreamt it" impression that there was some stipulation that if a narrative element was mentioned in both the Appendices and The Silmarillion (or other material not part of the film rights) but not in the main text of The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings it could not be adapted, but if it was mentioned in the body of The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings proper it could be regardless of whether it was mentioned in The Silmarillion et al.

But as I say, I can't back that up. If there's any truth to it, it might explain the Estate's involvement, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm reaching.

Nerwen

11-14-2017, 10:20 AM

davem

11-14-2017, 10:30 AM

I think I can recall one poster claiming this... but he wasn't exactly what I'd call a reliable source.

This affair seems to be getting more peculiar the more we hear about it, doesn't it? Is it possible Zaentz only holds the film rights and not the TV rights?

It's possible-but the Zaentz rights seen to cover video games as well as films, so I'd assume TV would be part of the rights as well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth_Enterprises

Morthoron

11-14-2017, 09:06 PM

The press release specifically states:

"...Amazon studios have exceptional ideas to bring to the screen previously unexplored stories based on J.R.R. Tolkien's original writings...Set in Middle-earth, the television adaptation will explore new storylines preceding J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Fellowship of the Ring.”

The bold sections are my emphasis. It will not be The Silmarillion, because the Tolkien Estate has not made any statement regarding the sale of separate media rights to that book, of which Christopher Tolkien is technically co-author. So, prior to FotR, post-Silmarillion, with no mention of The Hobbit as a precursor to LotR whatsoever.

What is one left with then? Look to HoMe, and the Unfinished Tales, specifically Part III and Part IV dealing with the Third Age but divorced from the LotR Appendices in most instances. This fits the modus operandi of "unexplored stories" and "new storylines...preceding FotR", but does not require selling media rights to The Sil, and does not interfere with separate rights held by Tolkien Enterprises (Saul Zaentz) who own the multimedia rights to The Hobbit and LotR.

Nerwen

11-14-2017, 09:22 PM

It's possible-but the Zaentz rights seen to cover video games as well as films, so I'd assume TV would be part of the rights as well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth_Enterprises
Well, that's the merchandising rights- what the court case was over- so not the same thing. However, film rights usually do include TV, AFAIK.

Morthoron

11-15-2017, 05:59 PM

Inziladun

11-15-2017, 07:46 PM

Well, this explains a lot. C. Tolkien has resigned as Director of the Tolkien Estate...

https://io9.gizmodo.com/j-r-r-tolkiens-son-resigns-as-director-of-tolkien-esta-1820476459

The vultures didn't even wait for the body to get cold. :rolleyes:

Man. :(

Given that Tolkien Estate incorporated in 2011 and Christopher Tolkien is no longer holding the reins, it looks to be open season for Tolkien films, shows, theme parks, or pretty much anything else you could imagine.

That pretty much nails it. My own opinion will not matter a whit to them, but I can at least ensure that I don't give them a penny of my money.

Galadriel55

11-15-2017, 07:47 PM

Well, this explains a lot. C. Tolkien has resigned as Director of the Tolkien Estate...

https://io9.gizmodo.com/j-r-r-tolkiens-son-resigns-as-director-of-tolkien-esta-1820476459

The vultures didn't even wait for the body to get cold. :rolleyes:

I wonder who's in charge now.

And it's something I've been thinking for a long time. As much as CJRT / the estate may have been disliked for forcing individual artists and businessmen and other simple people to stop publishing or close businesses that somehow impinge on the rights, he's gonna be missed, and missed a lot, now that he's not in control.

Kuruharan

11-15-2017, 08:16 PM

Nerwen

11-15-2017, 08:35 PM

Well. I refer you all to my comment #5 on this thread. (forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19081)

Galadriel55

11-15-2017, 09:09 PM

Well. I refer you all to my comment #5 on this thread. (forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19081)

Holy bananas. :eek:

davem

11-16-2017, 12:52 AM

I've always had mixed feelings about CT's approach to his father's work. For whatever reasons he tried to relegate the works to the realm of academe. I'm grateful he made the unpublished works available, but the accompanying mass of notes and commentary he added makes them (apart from the Sil) an horrific chore. He clearly hated the fact that his father's creation he been taken up by a bunch of hippies (many of them lefties too :eek: ), and sought to return them to their 'rightful' place, by handing them over to a bunch of professors. Most of the stuff he published would have been better if it had been put out with a basic 20 pp intro. The LotR movies (critical as I am of many parts of them) contain more of what touched the hearts of most book fans, than the interminable droning commentaries of CT, Flieger, and Hammond & Scull, et al

Galin

11-16-2017, 06:15 AM

I think the notes and commentary in The History of Middle-Earth series, providing a detailed explanation to more betterly understand the true state of the Silmarillion, its external history and related accounts, all of this is rather the point... given that we already have/had an "internal" version (the 1977 constructed Silmarillion), for what I call the reader's experience.

Add to that The Children of Hurin, of course this time presented as a one volume tale after all the fragments and commentaries had been published.

And if I want my "reader's experience" for Tuor's arrival in Gondolin for example (Unfinished Tales), it's pretty easy to skip the brief introduction and the end notes. Same goes for the early Fall of Gondolin published in The Book of Lost Tales II, for instance.

And Nerwen the oracle!

Zigûr

11-16-2017, 08:30 AM

Well, this explains a lot. C. Tolkien has resigned as Director of the Tolkien Estate...
That explains a lot indeed. I think the 2012 interview (mentioned in the article) suggests an attitude of resignation to the exploitation of his father's work, which seems fitting.

And, of course, without being flippant, isn't it a bit like a wise King of Númenor abdicating the throne in his old age, not trying to hang on forever? The responsibility then falls, as it should, upon future generations. The analogy fits all too well, I fear, given what happened in Númenor as the years passed and what's already happening now.

William Cloud Hicklin

11-16-2017, 10:31 AM

He clearly hated the fact that his father's creation he been taken up by a bunch of hippies (many of them lefties too :eek: )

CT, as a political animal, is most definitely not his father. Just take a gander at the causes the Tolkien Trust supports.

------------------

I would say, rather, that (especially in the wake of the movies) "He clearly hated the fact that his father's creation had been taken up by a bunch of sloped-forehead mouthbreathers." I would be rather upset at seeing the family silver being used by the mob for screwdrivers, spittoons and dog dishes (while all the while telling me what fans of my silver they are and what wonderful screwdrivers, spittoons and dog dishes it makes).

I think that CT (who after all was a professor) was determined that his father's writings be taken seriously, by scholars, and therefore he took a serious, scholarly approach to his editions. He was, after all, writing the history of his father's legendarium, and there's no way that barn's worth of fragments and unfinished revisions could have been presented coherently without extensive notes and commentary.

Kuruharan

11-16-2017, 10:37 AM

Well. I refer you all to my comment #5 on this thread. (forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19081)

Except you should have said "in a quarter or two" instead of a "year or two."

Rune Son of Bjarne

11-16-2017, 11:04 AM

He clearly hated the fact that his father's creation he been taken up by a bunch of hippies (many of them lefties too :eek: ), and sought to return them to their 'rightful' place, by handing them over to a bunch of professors.

I cannot remember if I have mentioned this before. In Denmark there was a group of very influential authors all named "Kløvedal" (Rivendell). They had all adopted the name in their youth when they lived together in a commune called (freely translated) Mao's Delight. The most prominent of them being Ebbe Kløvedal Reich and Troels Kløvedal.

Of course another well known Danish fan was the future Queen Margrethe II... I think that is what can be described as having a broad appeal.

Kuruharan

11-16-2017, 02:22 PM

I will admit to being curious if the production team for the TV show will take the design aesthetic in a direction away from the designs laid out by Jackson and Co.

For example, being a dwarf, it has been very interesting to me to note that things like Jackson's idea that "dwarves don't build anything in circles, only octagons" has pervaded the fantasy genre so that idea now crops up almost everywhere.

I wonder if the new team will forge their own path aesthetically or if they will just follow in the footsteps of Jackson.

Of if, indeed, Jackson is going to end up being involved in the project in some way. :rolleyes:

For some reason, the news about C. Tolkien has made me go back to my original idea that this series is going to focus on young Aragorn.

William Cloud Hicklin

11-16-2017, 03:30 PM

Kuruharan

11-16-2017, 05:16 PM

I wouldn't hold my breath for Silmarillion anything, because in that case CT isn't just his father's executor, he's also the co-author and therefore enjoys an absolute veto no matter what the Estate's new management might want.

That logic would definitively nix The Children of Hurin.

Young Aragorn looks ever more likely.

Galadriel55

11-16-2017, 07:49 PM

I wouldn't hold my breath for Silmarillion anything, because in that case CT isn't just his father's executor, he's also the co-author and therefore enjoys an absolute veto no matter what the Estate's new management might want.

What other books are there that they could draw on that are not co-authored by CJRT? Seems like a pretty limited selection - while he's alive at least to veto them. I suppose we're gonna see just how much made up stuff was actually "all in the appendices". At some point poor finite LOTR will get appendicitis.

davem

11-17-2017, 12:18 AM

I wouldn't hold my breath for Silmarillion anything, because in that case CT isn't just his father's executor, he's also the co-author and therefore enjoys an absolute veto no matter what the Estate's new management might want.

He also authorised, what, 300 plus changes to LotR for the 50th anniversary edition, which has now replaced the earlier versions, none of which add much, none authorised (obviously) by JRR, and almost none of which contribute very much, and seem to be mostly about CT staking some kind of claim. http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11338

Boromir88

11-17-2017, 07:59 AM

Of if, indeed, Jackson is going to end up being involved in the project in some way. :rolleyes:

For some reason, the news about C. Tolkien has made me go back to my original idea that this series is going to focus on young Aragorn.

Oh don't say it...our most dreadful imaginations usually become reality. Just when I thought The Hobbit would go in a different direction ("Oh it's going to be a Del Toro film"), Jackson gets his foot in the door and then comes along Boyens and Walsh again for the same recycled disaster.

I will wager there's a better chance Orlando Bloom is involved than PJ. All though, when it comes to anything Lord of the Rings-Hollywood industry relation, just when you think they're out of the picture...they flare back up.

I do think if they want the "events preceding the Fellowship" to be adapted, a TV series is a much better medium than whatever it is Jackson was trying to do with his Hobbit trilogy. The world is changing, gone are the days of the low-budget and extremely campy (but loveable in their own way) tv series.

Kuruharan

11-17-2017, 08:13 AM

Oh don't say it...our most dreadful imaginations usually become reality. Just when I thought The Hobbit would go in a different direction ("Oh it's going to be a Del Toro film"), Jackson gets his foot in the door and then comes along Boyens and Walsh again for the same recycled disaster.

I know. :(

Sort of against my will, I want to see this TV series be well done...not that I expect anything of the sort. Just setting myself up for the inevitable disappointment. :rolleyes:

I can just see Jackson already trying to work his way into the project. I fear that for the low knowledge corporate types he would seem like a big prize to score for the project since his name is already so heavily tied to the brand, they would think they are ensuring the success of the show by bringing him on board.

Michael Murry

11-17-2017, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Kuruharan:

I can just see Jackson already trying to work his way into the project. I fear that for the low knowledge corporate types he would seem like a big prize to score for the project since his name is already so heavily tied to the brand, they would think they are ensuring the success of the show by bringing him on board.

This seems like a rather inescapable -- if not implacable and inexorable -- observation. Consider, from Wikipedia:

The [Hobbit] series was a major financial success, with the films classified as one of the highest-grossing film series of all time, going on to outgross The Lord of the Rings film trilogy. Although critically considered to be inferior to The Lord of the Rings, it was nominated for various awards and won several, though not as many as its predecessor

Budget
$675 million
Box office
$2.932 billion

More from Wikipedia:

Television

On November 13, 2017, it was announced that Amazon had acquired the global television rights to The Lord of the Rings, committing to a multi-season television series. The series will not be a direct adaptation of the books, but will instead introduce new stories that are set before The Fellowship of the Ring. Amazon said the deal included potential for spin-off series as well.

We can clearly see the "why" of it all. I just shudder to think of the "what?"

Kuruharan

11-17-2017, 09:50 PM

I wonder how much of the “financial success” of The Hobbit is attributable to inflation of ticket prices...

Snowdog

11-18-2017, 01:57 AM

I believe this deal has its roots in the rights that were sold in the late 60's to UA, so it will be limited to the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings published book material. The CT published material (Sil, UT, CoH, HoME) is CT copyrighted and came after the 1969 deal was made. That said, the appendices at the end of Return of the King is a goldmine of summarized historical Middle Earth outlines that could lend itself easily to a multi episode TV mini-series. Of course, a major story in there is Appendix B which covers Aragorn and Arwen, so I suspect this will be at least part of this venture. That said, I am cautiously optomistic, or reluctantly hopeful, that this works out to the good. As long as there is an all new cast, and all new episode writers and directors, and PJ Boyens WETA and gang are kept as far away from it as possible, it may have a chance.

Nerwen

11-18-2017, 06:09 AM

Morthoron

11-18-2017, 02:31 PM

I can't say I have much faith in an adaptation, save for that morbid type of interest that makes one slow down on the freeway to view a car crash.

Oh, I'm sure they'll trot out a slew of hired-gun "Tolkien experts" to give the proceedings the facade of authenticity, and they're sure to borrow some of the look of the films. They may even break from convention and have a multi-ethnic cast to assuage the appearance of political-incorrectness purportedly pervading Tolkien's Northwestern European mythos. There may even be the titillation of elves and men bumping uglies for the sake of the prurient modern and utterly bored viewer. After all, they must keep people engaged as they bounce from Facebook to Instagram between violent beheadings, incinerations and disembowlments.

Inziladun

11-18-2017, 03:59 PM

They may even break from convention and have a multi-ethnic cast to assuage the appearance of political-incorrectness purportedly pervading Tolkien's Northwestern European mythos. There may even be the titillation of elves and men bumping uglies for the sake of the prurient modern and utterly bored viewer. After all, they must keep people engaged as they bounce from Facebook to Instagram between violent beheadings, incinerations and disembowlments.

Exactly. I fear the end product will have nothing Tolkien remaining, save the name. That begs the question of why one uses the Tolkien association, then. Only one answer: money.

William Cloud Hicklin

11-18-2017, 04:29 PM

Hey, I wonj't be disappointed at all, since I fully expect Young Aragorn: Lord of the Game of Ring Thrones to be utter crap.

Morthoron

11-18-2017, 08:43 PM

Hey, I wonj't be disappointed at all, since I fully expect Young Aragorn: Lord of the Game of Ring Thrones to be utter crap.

Well, white wolves did cross the Brandywine during the Fell Winter. Could zombies be far behind?

Boromir88

11-18-2017, 08:49 PM

Well, white wolves did cross the Brandywine during the Fell Winter. Could zombies be far behind?

And before The Wall there was the High Hay.

Galadriel55

11-18-2017, 09:46 PM

And before The Wall there was the High Hay.

Which has magic that stops the Children of the Old Forest!

Michael Murry

11-18-2017, 09:57 PM

I just caught this from Den of Geek:

John Rhys-Davies interview: Aux, Orcs, Lord Of The Rings, Indiana Jones and more

John Rhys-Davies tells us about Aux, autograph hunting, horror, the Lord Of The Rings TV series and more.

I don't do Internet links very well in this forum, so would someone please fix this if I get it wrong?

[URL="http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/movies/john-rhys-davies/53281/john-rhys-davies-interview-aux-orcs-lord-of-the-rings-indiana-jones-and-more"[/URL]

The Interested reader will have to scroll down a bit in the interview to get to Mr Rhys-Davies' comments on LOTR, the Hobbit, and prospective TV series. He basically sees little but greed for more $$$$$$$ in the whole idea, something like on-line gambling.

William Cloud Hicklin

11-18-2017, 11:28 PM

Good for JRD. He's always told it like he sees it.

davem

11-19-2017, 01:45 AM

Given that in the past the Estate has threatened legal action against a non-profit children's camp due to copyright https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110419/01104713954/tolkien-estate-strikes-again-forces-summer-camp-to-change-name.shtml this whole money grab seems sordid to say the least. There are lots of good reasons for attacking Amazon (as I said, I avoid them because of their 'creative' approach to tax and their treatment of staff) but the anger should be directed at the Estate, who decided to cash in on Tolkien's creation. Any harm done to Tolkien's creation should be laid at the door of the Estate. What was born in the mud and blood of the Somme, has become a cash cow for a bunch of greedy business people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. If the rights had been placed in the public domain we would have no doubt seen some appalling and offensive trash produced, but also some beautiful and creative productions. As it is, this deal will almost certainly only produce the former.

Snowdog

11-19-2017, 02:23 AM

To add to my last post, the bar has been set admittedly low with the LotR movies, and especially The Hobbit movies. Being the rights were sold 48 years ago before there was a 'Tolkien Estate', the estate likely put a high price on this especially after the hassles they had with the films. Cash grab?maybe, but may as well get the $ beforehand instead of hassling over the 'profits'.¯\_(ツ)_/¯

William Cloud Hicklin

11-19-2017, 08:54 AM

William Cloud Hicklin

11-19-2017, 08:55 AM

Boromir88

11-19-2017, 11:06 AM

I'm somewhat comforted by the fact that the Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos is already known to be a big fan of the fantasy genre and that he was directly involved in discussing this project with the Tolkien Estate and Trust.~Valesse

The rub about this is I remember when Jackson said he was a "fan" of Tolkien because he read Lord of the Rings once on a train and thought "this will be a kewl movie."

Inziladun

11-19-2017, 11:13 AM

The rub about this is I remember when Jackson said he was a "fan" of Tolkien because he read Lord of the Rings once on a train and thought "this will be a kewl movie."

I'd be surprised if the writers of a tv series had even done that. At most they might have watched the movies, and that's where their ideas about Tolkien will originate.

Faramir Jones

11-19-2017, 12:23 PM

Thanks for starting this thread, Victariongreyjoy!

With what people have said, and the news of Christopher Tolkien's resignation as Director of the Tolkien Estate, I'm not optimistic about this planned TV series.

If, as you said Snowdog, this happened, things might be different:

As long as there is an all new cast, and all new episode writers and directors, and PJ Boyens WETA and gang are kept as far away from it as possible, it may have a chance.

The best that can be done, I think, is to wait and see... :(

Lalaith

11-19-2017, 03:25 PM

This commentator agrees with us:
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2017/nov/15/lord-of-the-rings-tv-series-nobody-has-stamina-amazon

"Realistically, the best the series can do is not disappoint people. The worst it can do is junk the franchise for ever. That seems like too big a gamble, especially for a service that makes most of its money delivering cat food."

Kuruharan

11-19-2017, 03:52 PM

First, the initial reaction to the Lord of the Rings show was a heavy, sustained groan that could be heard the world over. No one is remotely excited about the adaptation. Even to the most enthusiastic Tolkien fan, it’s just another needless dilution of a work that exists best in print form.

I had not consulted any other sites to gauge reaction to the news, so this information both intrigues and pleases me.

It will be a prequel that ditches the canon in order to explore the events between The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, events so dull that Tolkien didn’t bother committing them to paper.

That comment irritated me.

It is not that the events between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings are dull. Not at all.

I just don't think the greedy pack of cynics who are producing this show will come close to doing it justice.

Snowdog

11-19-2017, 07:03 PM

Except that the TV rights were not sold 48 years ago: they were sold in 2017.

coughcoughexamplebassrankincoughcough.
The reading of the original 1969 contract says differently, and the material to be covered in this latest deal is part of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

davem

11-20-2017, 11:29 AM

coughcoughexamplebassrankincoughcough.
The reading of the original 1969 contract says differently, and the material to be covered in this latest deal is part of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

Love the Rankin Bass Hobbit. Jackson's farrago shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath.

Michael Murry

11-21-2017, 03:05 AM

... What was born in the mud and blood of the Somme, has become a cash cow for a bunch of greedy business people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. If the rights had been placed in the public domain we would have no doubt seen some appalling and offensive trash produced, but also some beautiful and creative productions. As it is, this deal will almost certainly only produce the former.

Speaking of treasured literary works in the public domain and what inspiration -- both/either appalling and/or beautiful -- others have drawn from them, you might find the following of interest:

Celebrating 200 Years of FRANKENSTEIN and DRACULA
Posted by Eric Diaz, the Nerdist.com (June 30, 2016)
https://nerdist.com/celebrating-200-years-of-frankenstein-and-dracula/

And, in the appalling (but truthful) trash department we now have YouTube and unsolicited volunteers reading us the scatological Mad Magazine movie reviews, just in case crap movies have rendered us incapable of reading cartoon pictures for ourselves; like, for instance:

The Slobbit Mad Magazine Part One
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJcNOe4Br1s

The Slobbit Mad Magazine Part Two
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3kDHXeMP7w

And these two videos only cover one-third of the bloated three-thirds of a one-movie story whose gross ticket receipts have convinced greedy investors to underwrite not one but several television seasons of ... just what I shudder to think.

Michael Murry

11-21-2017, 05:13 AM

In my above comment about public-domain literary masterpieces and how later writers and movie directors feed off of them, I mentioned Bram Stoker's Dracula because -- in relation to Tolkien's epic triology, the scene featuring Smeagol-Gollum climbing face down a cliff in LOTR: The Two Towers comes straight from Dracula, where Jonathan Harker relates in his journal what he saw one night when looking out over the empty courtyard of the Count's delapidated castle.

... As I leaned from the window my eye was caught by something moving a storey below me, and somewhat to my left, where I imagined, from the lie of the rooms, that the window of the Count's own room would look out ...

What I saw was the Count's head coming out from the window. I did not see the face, but I knew the man by the neck and the movement of his back and arms. In any case, I could not mistake the hands wihich I had so many opportunities of studying. I was at first interested and somewhat amused, for it is wonderful how small a matter will interest and amuse a man when he is a prisoner. But my very feelings changed to repulsion and terror when I saw the whole man slowly emerge from the window and begin to crawl down the castly wall over that dreadful abyss, face down , with his cloak spreading out around him like great wings. At first I could not beieve my eyes. I thought it was some trick of the moonlight, some wierd effect of shadow; but I kept looking, and it could be no delusion. I saw the fingers and toes grasp the corners of the stones, worn clear of the mortar by the stress of years, and by this using every projection and inequality move downwards with considerable speed, just like a lizard moves along a wall.

What manner of man is this, or what manner of creature is it in the semblance of man? I feel the dread of this horrible place overpowering me; I am in fear -- in awful fear -- and there is no escape for me; I am encompassed about with terrors that I dare not think of ...

As Tolkien reworked the scene into his own tale:

Suddenly [Frodo] stiffened, and stooping he gripped Sam by the arm. 'What's that?' he whispered. 'Look over there on the cliff!'
Sam looked and breathed in sharply through his teeth. 'Ssss!' he said. 'That's what it is. It's that Gollum! Snakes and ladders! And to think that I thought that we'd puzzle him with our bit of a climb! Look at him! Like a nasty crawling spider on a wall.'
Down the face of a precipice, sheer and almost smooth it seemed in the pale moonlight, a small black shape was moving with its thin limbs splayed out. Maybe its soft clinging hands and toes were finding crevices and holds that no hobbit could ever have seen or used, but it looked as if it was just creeping down on sticky pads, like some large prowling thing of insect-kind. And it was coming down head first, as if it was smelling its way. Now and again it lifted its head slowly, turning it right back on its long skinny neck, and the hobbits caught a glimpse of two small pale gleaming lights, its eyes that blinked at the moon for a moment and then were quickly lidded again.

So J. R. R. Tolkien had no qualms about incorporating Bram Stoker's imagery into his own work and Peter Jackson followed Tolkien in the second film of his movie trilogy. Good thing for Tolkien, Jackson, and New Line Cinema that no one from the Bram Stoker Estate sued them for "intellectual property" infringement since Dracula does not just belong in the public domain, but has become a part of the literary and entertainment culture itself. It seems to me that if the producers, writers, and directors of the upcoming "LOTR" television series want to reuse Tolkien and Jackson in their own stories, then they only need find what Tolkien and Jackson reused from the extant literature and film archives and claim that they based their stories on those common foundations and not on anything that Tolkien had written or Jackson had filmed. After all, "There and Back Again" simply rips off Homer's Iliad (from Greece to Troy) and Odyssey (back to Greece agan). Practically all of Western Literature has done that. Tolkien did it twice: short version and longer version.

Lalaith

11-21-2017, 11:38 AM

Morthoron

11-21-2017, 06:49 PM

I'm sorry.... What? Literally every project has the goal to make money. If they did not, they would not be made in the first place. Do you not understand capitalism?

Allow me to present to you a little project called the Silmarillion, that had no purpose beyond the intellectual and emotional pleasure it gave its creator...

Lalaith, I believe ArcusCalion is from that cynical lot who believe every artistic endeavor primarily revolves around the making of money, no matter what altruistic intent mentioned by the artist.

In fact, I am sure his opinion coincides with the 18th century poet Matthew Greene, who once famously wrote, "Novels are receipts to make a whore."

Michael Murry

11-22-2017, 12:30 AM

... the appendices at the end of Return of the King is a goldmine of summarized historical Middle Earth outlines that could lend itself easily to a multi episode TV mini-series. Of course, a major story in there is Appendix B which covers Aragorn and Arwen, so I suspect this will be at least part of this venture. That said, I am cautiously optimistic, or reluctantly hopeful, that this works out to the good. As long as there is an all new cast, and all new episode writers and directors, and PJ Boyens, WETA and gang are kept as far away from it as possible, it may have a chance.

Yes, the various LOTR appendices do contain calendars of dates and summary plot outlines which could form the basis for additional "Middle Earth" stories. Unfortunately, Peter Jackson and Company made a hash of this information when they selectively plundered the Appendices and rearranged and expanded much of Tolkien's material -- most notably the Aragorn and Arwen "love" stuff -- into their own scripts for The Lord of the Rings -- the film. Ditto for the three Hobbit films. So now we have six films that constitute what I have heard termed, "the Jackson Legendarium," which the new television series will have to keep in mind so as to avoid "intellectual" property-rights litigation from the motion-picture studio quarter. Caught between a literary rock and a movie hard place, so to speak, something tells me that corporate lawyers will have as much to say about these television stories as anyone else.

Rhun charioteer

11-22-2017, 04:07 AM

I think the main takeaway from this is that Amazon is downright desperate to keep up with Netlfix and HBO for streaming customers in terms of big buck critical and commercial successes. It's apparently a cut throat new sphere in the entertainment industry.

Amazon and Bezos I think see LOTR as a way to buy themselves out of the fact they can't compete with HBO-their trying to replicate Game of Throne's success despite GOT and LOTR being manicheanly different in terms of style, themes, emphasis, and worldview.

Is there any word on why Christopher Tolkien has resigned?

Kuruharan

11-22-2017, 09:44 AM

Amazon and Bezos I think see LOTR as a way to buy themselves out of the fact they can't compete with HBO-their trying to replicate Game of Throne's success despite GOT and LOTR being manicheanly different in terms of style, themes, emphasis, and worldview.

I'm not sure that the powers that be at Amazon are attuned enough to the two franchises to realize the differences.

Maybe they were bamboozled by everyone saying that Martin is the American Tolkien and they thought they could one up HBO by getting the "original."

Is there any word on why Christopher Tolkien has resigned?

Sadly, I suspect it is the obvious reason of his advancing age. :(

Michael Murry

11-22-2017, 12:56 PM

If I understand the legal situation surrounding the proposed television series and possible spin-offs, the TV programs may cover anything and everything in Middle Earth from after The Hobbit (book and films?) but before LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring (book and film?). To begin figuring out what this means as a practical, story-telling matter, I consulted the relevant Middle Earth chronology (for the Third Age) from Appendix B of Lord of the Rings (the book) which reads as follows:

2942 Bilbo returns to the Shire with the Ring. Sauron returns in secret to Mordor.
...
3001 Bilbo's farewell feast [on his 111th birthday]. Gandalf suspects his ring to be the One Ring. The guard on the Shire is doubled. Gandalf seeks for news of Gollum and calls on the help of Aragorn.

I take it, then, that these prospective television programs and spin-offs can cover anything and everything in Middle Earth from 2943 to 3000 of the Third Age, a period of 58 years (inclusive). Still, I can't see how the characters and their story arcs can make any sense without reference to what came before and what comes after. In other words, we seem to have sequel and prequel combined into one: with the former coming after what no one can legally tell us about (but which we know anyway) and the latter coming before something else that no one can legally tell us about (but which we know anyway), either. How does anything like that work outside of a "secret" American grand jury proceeding leaked to the media by anonymous accusers on an hourly basis? Game of Thrones, or House of Cards? Inquiring minds want to know.

Pitchwife

11-22-2017, 01:57 PM

Lalaith, I believe ArcusCalion is from that cynical lot who believe every artistic endeavor primarily revolves around the making of money, no matter what altruistic intent mentioned by the artist.
You don't have to be cynical to recognize that artists need to pay rents and grocery bills like the rest of us. Tolkien was free to build his languages and legendarium for love and his own enjoyment because his day job fed the family (on top of providing him with linguistic and literary inspiration).

Screenwriters, directors and actors, however, live by their craft and generally don't own the means of production (again, like the rest of us). Small, cheap indy projects may be realized without compromising your artistic vision, but if your vision calls for a large cast and lots of special fx you depend on the goodwill of those who do own the means of production, and for whom the maximization of profit is indeed often the sole concern--and there goes:

With usura hath no man a house of good stone
each block cut smooth and well fitting
that delight might cover their face,

with usura

hath no man a painted paradise on his church wall
harpes et luthes
or where virgin receiveth message
and halo projects from incision,

with usura

seeth no man Gonzaga his heirs and his concubines
no picture is made to endure nor to live with
but it is made to sell and sell quickly

For a small budget, minimalist TV version of LotR that trusts the story to do its job without any need for spectacular CGI, artificial character arcs and silly romance subplots, see Hobitit (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_5pwxCkWzY&list=PL5PqKfc7SM1INBa2j8euneNZvTNAKf3E9)(which I love, it captures the spirit and 'feel' of the story very well IMO, some ham acting and questionable design decisions notwithstanding). But if a big, flashy Tolkien-based series must needs be made, I wish somebody would pick up Helge Fauskanger's ideas for Westernesse (http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/numenor1.htm) (even if Gary Oldman is already a little old to play Ar-Pharazon).

Michael Murry

11-22-2017, 06:18 PM

I really have to wonder about how much of "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Hobbit" (books and films) can remain in certain private hands, for their commercial exploitation only. So many millions of people, over such a long period of time, have read and/or seen this material, that it already seems part of the general world culture. For example: in the bestselling book, The Martian, by Andy Weir -- and in its subsequent film adaptation -- a hero astronaut finds himself marooned on the planet Mars, while a group of NASA employees has a meeting to discuss a controversial plan to rescue him. The book depicts the scene as follows:

What the f*** is 'Project Elrond'?" Annie asked.
"I had to make something up," Venkat said.
"So you come up with 'Elrond'?" Annie pressed.
"Because it's a secret meeting?" Mitch guessed. "The e-mail said I couldn't even tell my assistant."
"I'll explain everything once Teddy arrives," Venkat said.
"Why does 'Elrond' mean 'secret meeting'?" Annie asked.
"Are we going to make a momentous decision?" Bruce Ng aksed.
"Exactly," Venkat said.
"How did you know that?" Annie asked, getting annoyed.
"Elrond," Bruce said. "The Council of Elrond. From Lord of the Rings. It's the meeting where they decide to destroy the One Ring."
"Jesus," Annie said. "None of you got laid in high school, did you?"

The movie scene has a bit more unspoken resonance because Sean Bean, the actor who portrayed the “Mitch” character (a NASA flight director) also played Boromir, an attendee at the film version of the Council of Elrond, from Book II of LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring. Additionally, in the movie but not the book, the character Teddy (Director of NASA) adds: “If we're going to call something 'Project Elrond,' I'd like my code name to be 'Glorfindel',” which would indicate that the character had read the books since the elf character Glorfindel never appeared in Peter Jackson's film version of The Fellowship. Of course, the movie version had to clean up the language somewhat, with the first and last lines of dialogue changed to "What the hell is 'Project Elrond'?" and "I hate every one of you," respectively.

I find it hard to believe that the publishers and producers of The Martian - book and film -- would have had to pay royalties or other forms of "compensation" to the Tolkien Estate or various film studios for making reference to "The Council of Elrond" in their own work. I checked inside the front and back covers of the book for CYA disclaimers and found only the standard generic one:

"This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, places, and incidents either are the product of the author's imagination or are used fictitiously. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, events, or locales is entirely coincidental."

I wonder how far the producers of the projected television series can stretch this "fictitious" and "entirely coincidental" kind of legalistic denial.

Michael Murry

11-22-2017, 10:31 PM

Thanks for the verse, Pitchwife. And thanks, again, for that comment (#3) you made many years ago in the "Itaril" thread where you wrote:

A quick google search of "Itaril hobbit", however, revealed this:

Originally Posted by http://collider.com/casting-info-for-the-hobbit-revealed/13531

[ITARIL] FEMALE, A WOODLAND ELF, this character is one the Silvan Elves. The Silvan Elves are seen as more earthy and practical. Shorter than other elves, she is still quick and lithe and physically adept, being able to fight with both sword and bow. Showing promise as a fighter at a young age, ITARIL was chosen to train to become part of the Woodland King’s Guard. This is the only life she has ever expected to live, until she meets and secretly falls in love with a young ELF LORD. This role will require a wig and contact lenses to be worn. Some prosthetic make-up may also be required. LEAD. AGE: 17-27. ACCENT – STANDARD R.P.

So it seems like PJ & Co. nicked the name for some token female Elf who wasn't in the book either, but whose presence is presumed necessary in order to feed the unwashed movie-watching masses' hunger for on-screen romance. I'm afraid it takes no extraordinary sagacity to guess who the "young Elf lord" she falls in love with is going to be... *shudder*

I hold you blameless for inspiring my own attempts (often sordid) to follow -- in verse -- the implications inherent in this casting advertisement. Despite the later euphemistic change of product description to "Tauriel," and the change of "love" interest from Elf lord to dwarf miner, the essential "strong female" Mary Sue nature of the elf-chick role remained from first to last. Recently, I went back and gathered all my verse compositions from that thread together -- along with some of the forum commentary, positive and negative, that prompted my poor poetic efforts -- with a view to publishing them someday as a connected cycle. With the promised (i.e., "threatened") television series and spin-offs coming soon, though, I thought it best to wrap up this "Hobbit" elf-chick thing before moving on to whatever awful idea comes next. I think that I tried this once before in another thread, but I've forgotten where I put it. So, with a few changes, I'll try again with:

Unrequited Elf-Dwarf Libido

How did this interspecies film romance
Have anything amounting to a chance
If he, the dwarf, had nothing in his shorts
And she, the elf, knew only glib retorts?

We know that elves and men can mate, it's true,
Because Professor Tolkien said they do.
But how do elves and dwarves refute the rule
That horses crossed with donkeys make a mule?

It seems this kind of, tawdry, tame affair
Appeals to those without a pubic hair:
To boys in bed, both hands beneath the sheets,
And girls who've yet to grow a pair of teats.

And what of that “young Elf Lord” -- You-Know-Him --
Whose face emotes expressions fell and grim
Who left the elf-chick in his dad's employ
To go in search of one ten-year-old boy*

What does a jilted elf-chick have to do?
Abandoned by a dwarf and elf lord, too.
It looks like time for yet another plan.
Who's left to further her career? A man?

Michael Murry, "The Misfortune Teller," Copyright 2017

Note * According to Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings, Aragorn, born in 2931 of the Third Age, would have only reached the age of ten or eleven by 2942, the year that The Hobbit ends with Bilbo's return from his great adventure to Bag End, Hobbiton.

I note this because, very near the end of the last Hobbit film, i.e., The Battle of the Five Armies, the "young Elf Lord" Legolas bluntly tells his dad, King Thranduil: "I can't to back." When the Silvan Elf King solemnly asks his son: "Where will you go?" Legolas answers: "I do not know." The Elf King then advises his son: "Go north. Find the Dunedain. There is a young ranger among them. You should meet him. His father, Arathorn, was a good man. His son might grow to be a great one." Legolas then asks the obvious: "What is his name?" To which the King answers, cryptically: "He is known in the wild as 'Strider.' His true name you must discover for yourself."

Unfortunately for Legolas in 2942, Lord Elrond in Imladris (Rivendell) reveals to 'Estel' his true name and ancestry, and delivers to him the shards of Narsil and other heirlooms, only in 2951, when Aragorn turns twenty.

Therefore, in 2942 when Thranduil attempts to advise his son Legolas where to go: (1) No one but Elrond and Aragorn's mother, Gilraen, know Aragorn's true name or his ancestry. Aragorn himself answers to the name of "Estel." (2) Aragorn lives in Imladris under his pseudonym and not with the Dunedian in the north whose existence he probably doesn't even know about. (3) At the age of ten or eleven his legs have not grown long enough for him to "stride" about in the Wild and earn the nickname "Strider." Anyway, Aragorn doesn't even go out into the Wild knowing his true name and ancestry until he turns twenty. And even then and thereafter, he goes about under any number of assumed names for a great many years.

Quite a bit doesn't add up here, and if Legolas actually follows his dad's advice, he will have about seven decades to wander around lost before Lord Elrond reveals Aragorn's true name and lineage to all those assembed at The Council of Elrond in October of 3018.

Hard to say all that in a few lines of verse, so "one ten-year-old boy" will have to suffice.

Rhun charioteer

11-23-2017, 12:11 AM

I really have to wonder about how much of "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Hobbit" (books and films) can remain in certain private hands, for their commercial exploitation only. So many millions of people, over such a long period of time, have read and/or seen this material, that it already seems part of the general world culture. For example: in the bestselling book, The Martian, by Andy Weir -- and in its subsequent film adaptation -- a hero astronaut finds himself marooned on the planet Mars, while a group of NASA employees has a meeting to discuss a controversial plan to rescue him. The book depicts the scene as follows:

The movie scene has a bit more unspoken resonance because Sean Bean, the actor who portrayed the “Mitch” character (a NASA flight director) also played Boromir, an attendee at the film version of the Council of Elrond, from Book II of LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring. Additionally, in the movie but not the book, the character Teddy (Director of NASA) adds: “If we're going to call something 'Project Elrond,' I'd like my code name to be 'Glorfindel',” which would indicate that the character had read the books since the elf character Glorfindel never appeared in Peter Jackson's film version of The Fellowship. Of course, the movie version had to clean up the language somewhat, with the first and last lines of dialogue changed to "What the hell is 'Project Elrond'?" and "I hate every one of you," respectively.

I find it hard to believe that the publishers and producers of The Martian - book and film -- would have had to pay royalties or other forms of "compensation" to the Tolkien Estate or various film studios for making reference to "The Council of Elrond" in their own work. I checked inside the front and back covers of the book for CYA disclaimers and found only the standard generic one:

"This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, places, and incidents either are the product of the author's imagination or are used fictitiously. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, events, or locales is entirely coincidental."

I wonder how far the producers of the projected television series can stretch this "fictitious" and "entirely coincidental" kind of legalistic denial.
You know I wonder if it's good or bad Tolkien's works have the shining omnipresent legacy they do.

A part of me says yes and a part of me says no.

Pitchwife

11-23-2017, 10:12 AM

You know I wonder if it's good or bad Tolkien's works have the shining omnipresent legacy they do.
I see it as an inevitable stage in their transmutation from literature to true myth.

Michael, thanks for a little trip down memory lane, back to the days where we could only surmise which of our nightmares would be fulfilled by PJ & company. I'll pass your thanks for the verse on to Uncle Ezra.
Therefore, in 2942 when Thranduil attempts to advise his son Legolas where to go: (1) No one but Elrond and Aragorn's mother, Gilraen, know Aragorn's true name or his ancestry. Aragorn himself answers to the name of "Estel." (2) Aragorn lives in Imladris under his pseudonym and not with the Dunedian in the north whose existence he probably doesn't even know about. (3) At the age of ten or eleven his legs have not grown long enough for him to "stride" about in the Wild and earn the nickname "Strider." Anyway, Aragorn doesn't even go out into the Wild knowing his true name and ancestry until he turns twenty. And even then and thereafter, he goes about under any number of assumed names for a great many years.

Quite a bit doesn't add up here, and if Legolas actually follows hid dad's advice, he will have about seven decades to wander around lost before Lord Elrond reveals Aragorn's true name and lineage to all those assembed at The Council of Elrond in October of 3018.
Now this could be material for an epic multi-season series! "Legolas: The Search For Strider" would follow ranger and elf-prince on their separate but interwoven adventures through the wild and uncharted realms of Middle-earth, even to Rhûn and Harad, where the stars are strange, with every foreshadowed meeting ending in a near miss. We could watch Aragorn serve incognito under Thengel and Ecthelion, the barbaric tribes of the East and South would add an exotic flair to rival the Essos and Dorne scenes in GoT, complete with scantily clad oriental princesses and conlangs by David Peterson; for the horror element we could have the Black Riders stretching their limbs after awaking from millennial sleep during The Hobbit, and maybe one of those sorcerous cults the Blue Wizards are reported to have started. Every now and then Galadriel would PM Legolas telepathically, telling him in broken Elvish that Strider is in grave danger and Leggy must hasten to save him, but of course Aragorn has saved himself by the time Leggy arrives. We could even have a little L/A slash as long as Leggy doesn't realize that this ruggedly handsome man who awakens unforeseen desire in him is 'Strider'.

(I'm kidding, of course... or am I? Part of me wouldn't mind watching such a cinematic fan fic, minus the Legolas part and other obvious silliness--if only it were perfectly clear that it's nothing but that, fan fic, and we wouldn't have to explain to future Piles of Bones that Aragorn's fling with that Easterling princess who secretly meant to betray him to dark!Pallando never really happened.)

Michael Murry

11-23-2017, 11:08 PM

I apologize if others have already covered this article ...

"Why Amazon’s Lord of the Rings Show Won’t Be the New Game of Thrones"
By Joanna Robinson, Vanity Fair (November, 2017)
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/11/lord-of-the-rings-tv-series-amazon-prequel

... But I wanted to excerpt a few comments relevant to my own, admittedly jaundiced, view of things. For example:

Matt Galsor, a representative for the Tolkien Estate and Trust and HarperCollins, clarifies that the series will “bring to the screen previously unexplored stories based on J.R.R. Tolkien’s original writings,”*which leaves a lot of leeway for elaborate inspired-by inventions [such as] the many side stories that padded out Peter Jackson’s Hobbit trilogy. In other words, this could be a by-the-book Silmarillion-esque nerdfest, or a show sure to enrage the Tolkien die-hards as much as Jackson’s invented love story between Evangeline Lilly’s elf warrior Tauriel and Aidan Turner’s dwarf Kíli.

An "enraged Tolkien die-hard"? I resemble that remark!

Or, perhaps, I only half resemble it, since I belong to the enraged Tolkien die-hard cohort that couldn't stomach Jackson's invented love story when it first involved an Elf-chick character by the name of "Itaril" (originally scheduled for portrayal by the teenage actress Saoirse Ronan) who fell secretly in love with a "young Elf Lord," You-Know-Him, while kicking butt and taking names for the Silvan Elf King Thranduil, father of the "young Elf Lord" in question. Apparently, the author of this article completely missed the first iteration of this really lousy Elf-chick "warrior" thing and only picked up on it the second time around. Just change the name from "innocent bystander" to "collateral damage" and the killing can continue. Primitive Word-Magic works every time.

Then, we have this:

Still, all the younger wizards and elves of Middle Earth can’t guarantee that this Lord of the Rings TV series will be the next Game of Thrones. For one thing, the HBO series started as a very faithful adaptation with a built-in audience of loyal book fans. Tolkien fans, still licking their wounds after the Hobbit trilogy, are likely to be very wary of another potentially less-than-faithful prequel.

Yeah. Still licking my wounds. Not real keen to acquire more of them.

Rhun charioteer

11-24-2017, 04:19 AM

The press really does seem to like pricking at Tolkien fans. They also seem to portray Christopher Tolkien himself as a mean ogre that won't everyone enjoy his father's blessings.

Inziladun

11-24-2017, 05:52 AM

Michael Murry

11-24-2017, 05:53 AM

I just caught a couple of interesting comments regarding the "Lord of the Rings" television stuff soon to come:

Amazon is turning The Lord of the Rings into a TV show
Just in case the movies didn’t do it for you
by Bryan Bishop, The Verge (November 13, 2017)
...
In the statement announcing the news, the company clarifies that the new show will “explore new storylines preceding J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Fellowship of the Ring,” with a potential spinoff series also included as part of the deal. That means Amazon is going to be making a prequel to the classic tale of Frodo Baggins, offering Amazon plenty of leeway to create its own characters and take on the world. If Amazon is looking for an opportunity to add the sex, violence, and soap opera drama to Tolkien’s world that have made shows like Game of Thrones so successful, this kind of approach would certainly offer the opportunity.

Oh, great: "Sex, violence, and soap opera drama." Just what the "Lord of the Rings" brand needs.

And then we have this:

Amazon confirms a 'Lord of the Rings' TV series is in the works
The rumors are true.
By Swapna Krishna, endgadget.com (November 13, 2017)
https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/13/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-multiseason-tv-series/

It's important to note that this series "will explore new storylines preceding J.R.R. Tolkien's The Fellowship of the Ring," rather than re-tell the stories depicted onscreen in Peter Jackson's trilogy. The deal, which commits to multiple seasons for the show, also includes a possible spin-off series. Given the popularity of Lord of the Rings as a franchise (we'll just pretend that the endless The Hobbit movies don't exist), the rumors of Amazon prepping a free ad-supported video service couldn't come at a better time.

I hadn't thought of this, but upon reflection, it makes perfect sense: We'll just pretend that the endless The Hobbit movies don't exist Therefore, anything before the Fellowship of the Ring looks like fair game. I think I've got it now.

Kuruharan

11-24-2017, 04:50 PM

I really hope this thing tanks. I hate to say that about anything associated with Tolkien, but maybe that would at least ensure less outrageous treatment of his world, from the point of view of "enraged die-hards" such as I.

I have a more nuanced approach.

If a miracle happens and it is good I hope it succeeds.

If, as is most likely, it is a porn fest or otherwise terrible, I hope it fails so hard as to eliminate any desire by anybody in pop culture to ever touch Tolkien again with a ten foot pole.

Inziladun

11-24-2017, 05:35 PM

If a miracle happens and it is good I hope it succeeds.

I guess my only comment there is to wonder what constitutes "good"? That'll be up to the individual.

My belief is that they won't be able to stop themselves "modernizing" the story universe in the name of political correctness, or adding/subtracting characters undreamt of by Tolkien in order to "appeal to everyone". Movie Arwen, Tauriel, shield-surfing teen-idol Legolas, "funny", "eccentric' old Radagast- none of that gives hope for anything I'm going to be able to look at without rolling my eyes and switching off.

Kuruharan

11-24-2017, 08:45 PM

My belief is that they won't be able to stop themselves "modernizing" the story universe in the name of political correctness, or adding/subtracting characters undreamt of by Tolkien in order to "appeal to everyone". Movie Arwen, Tauriel, shield-surfing teen-idol Legolas, "funny", "eccentric' old Radagast- none of that gives hope for anything I'm going to be able to look at without rolling my eyes and switching off.

It will be good if these things don't happen.

I agree that it is unlikely to happen, and indeed I expect much worse out of this than those listed failings, but at least we can define success for them. :D

Galadriel55

11-24-2017, 10:23 PM

I guess my only comment there is to wonder what constitutes "good"? That'll be up to the individual.

My belief is that they won't be able to stop themselves "modernizing" the story universe in the name of political correctness, or adding/subtracting characters undreamt of by Tolkien in order to "appeal to everyone". Movie Arwen, Tauriel, shield-surfing teen-idol Legolas, "funny", "eccentric' old Radagast- none of that gives hope for anything I'm going to be able to look at without rolling my eyes and switching off.

Thing is, if they just take Tolkien elements and go off to spin their own story, like the Sherlock series, I probably wouldn't mind. It would be separate enough to be "based on" rather than a "true film adaptation" of Tolkien. And then sure, spin whatever you want as long as it's a good story and you admit it's not following the book. The thing that bugs me most is the compensated version, where they feel they have to change something, but not significantly enough to make it its own independent story, so the story ends up being stupid and they frantically vow it's all true Tolkien appendices.

Inziladun

11-25-2017, 07:47 AM

Morthoron

11-25-2017, 10:04 AM

I found this wish list (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp07_QRIvy0) of things wanted in the new series. I'm at odds with a good deal of it, but I guess that's just more evidence (as if it were needed) that I'm out of step with the masses.

Okay, how about we establish an ongoing Non-wish Wish List of things we would find abhorrent in a Middle-earth presentation, but which may well end up being in the show in some form or another (and whether we like it or not). I'll start:

1. Doggone it, Dwarves are going to have sex whether they want it or not!

2. Elves are actually corrupted Orcs (we got it back side round all this time).

3. Boromir is the love child of Finduilas and Aragorn (in his guise as Thorongil while he fought for Gondor under the steward Echtelion II). Because the new show needs a Jon Snow moment.

4. A story line that involves the sham marriage of Galadriel and Celeborn, due to Celeborn's flagrant proclivities with young male Elves. Title the episode "A Faery Story".

5. Sauron is a bloated, narcissistic red-haired huckster who likes to raise tall buildings with his name on them and uses adverbs like "bigly".

Michael Murry

11-26-2017, 01:52 AM

Many thanks to Inziladun and Morthoron for the respective Wish- and Non-Wish lists of prospective "LOTR" television/movie ideas. I don't know which to fear the most. Probably the former, because its proposals seem so lame, shop-worn, and predictable. To take just two examples from the Wish-list:

#6. The original cast appearing in cameos
"The Return of the King and even The Battle of Five Armies left virtually everyone on the right note."

#5. More female characters.

"With their adaptations, Jackson and company made an effort to give the female characters more to do. For example, it's Arwen who rescues the hobbits in the first movie.”

"In The Desolation of Smaug, the film makers introduced a strong-willed female elf named Tauriel. While this character wasn't in any of the books, she was a welcome addition to an otherwise male dominated tale. Amazon could do something similar, although any original characters would have to be well-written to fit into the middle earth canon. We don't just want a token character.”

Oh, please! The transparent cameo appearances of Elija Wood and Ian Holm as departed ring-bearers Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, respectively (back from the Undying Lands for a long-delayed curtain call?) most certainly did not leave "virtually everyone" on the right note at the end of the Hobbit films, unless one considers a sour note the "right" one.

Furthermore, Arwyn does not "rescue the hobbits in the first movie." She only shoves the elf Glorfindel aside and takes his horse to rescue Frodo from pursuing Black Riders. Details from Wikipedia:

As told in the first volume, The Fellowship of the Ring, Glorfindel was sent by Elrond of Rivendell to help the hobbit Frodo reach Rivendell as he is pursued by the Nazgûl. He set Frodo on his horse, Asfaloth, and Frodo rode ahead to the other side of the Ford of Bruinen, where he defied his pursuers. He was nearly captured, but Glorfindel, Strider and Frodo's hobbit companions drove the Nazgûl into the water, where they were swept away by a wave of water resembling charging horses (an enchantment created by Elrond and Gandalf). Glorfindel revealed himself as a mighty Elf-lord terrible in his wrath; Frodo saw him as a shining figure.

So much for Frodo, Asfaloth the horse, Glorfindel, Strider, Frodo's hobbit companions, Elrond and Gandalf getting their own recognition for courage and ingenuity when truly needed. PJ and Co. just had to give Arwyn something to do, since Tolkien could never find much need of her presence throughout the principal narrative of his long tale.

And as for the "strong willed" Elf-chick security guard Tauriel who deserted her King's defense in order to chase after a dwarf with "nothing" in his pants: if she constitutes a "well-written" and "welcome" addition to the Middle Earth canon -- and not "just a token character" pandering to the pre- and post-pubescent mall-maiden demographic -- then the English language, as I understand it, has dissolved into incoherent gibberish.

So much for only two items on the so-called "wish list." I don't have time to go into the other eight, but no doubt others can easily dispense with those.

As for the "No-wish" list, I think it has possibilities, something along the lines of what Young Frankenstein and Love at First Bite did for Mary Shelley's Frankenstein; or, the New Prometheus, and Bram Stoker's Dracula, respectively. J. R. R. Tolkien already did his thing. Nothing can change that. Peter Jackson has lready done his thing. Nothing can change that, either. Time for someone else to do other things with Middle Earth history. I really don't care what as long as it makes sense and they do it with style and a little panache. Not that I expect this, of course, but as the stand-up comedienne Judy Tanuda likes to say about the highly improbable: "It could happen!"

William Cloud Hicklin

11-26-2017, 06:26 PM

What I still can't get my head around is the Tolkien family (less Christopher) selling out like this, letting their birthright be turned to crap for a mess of 200 million pottages. Certainly Adam's interviews from a few years ago suggested an attitude like his father's.

Inziladun

11-27-2017, 06:35 AM

What I still can't get my head around is the Tolkien family (less Christopher) selling out like this, letting their birthright be turned to crap for a mess of 200 million pottages.

Who knows what's going on in the family? Maybe there's drama unknown to the public.
That said, I can sympathize with Turgon after he heard reports Húrin had been released from Angband with honour.

'Even Húrin Thalion has surrendered to the will of Morgoth. My heart is shut'.

Nerwen

11-28-2017, 05:51 AM

Any word on the title? I think it should be called A Game of Rings. With any luck, fans of obscure sports will starting watching it under the impression that it's a documentary on quoits, and thus be drawn into the exciting world of "previously unexplored stories based on J.R.R. Tolkien’s original writings". Or not.

Zigûr

11-28-2017, 06:47 AM

In all seriousness, I daresay it will be called "The Lord of the Rings: <Insert Subtitle Here>" to get as many people as possible to watch it.

Inziladun

11-28-2017, 01:24 PM

In all seriousness, I daresay it will be called "The Lord of the Rings: <Insert Subtitle Here>" to get as many people as possible to watch it.

If Truth In Advertising was a law, it'd be called Lord of the Rings: Quest for the Silver Pennies.

Michael Murry

11-28-2017, 04:49 PM

Not "Lord" of the "Rings" (as in "onion"), but "Lard" of the "Fries" (as in "French"). Anything to convey the image of congealed grease at the bottom of the pan after deep frying left-over vegetables.

Michael Murry

11-28-2017, 06:09 PM

If I may, I'd like to take off on Item #3 of Morthoron's "No-Wish" list for the forthcoming LOTR television series and possible spin-offs:

Boromir is the love child of Finduilas and Aragorn (in his guise as Thorongil while he fought for Gondor under the steward Echtelion II). Because the new show needs a Jon Snow moment.

Confessing my own age, ignorance, and indifference to what passes for "culture" in the "English speaking world" today, I had no idea what a "Jon Snow" moment might mean, so I did a little Internet research and discovered [source: Wikipedia] that "Jon is introduced in 1996's A Game of Thrones as the illegitimate son of Ned Stark, the honorable lord of Winterfell, an ancient fortress in the North of the fictional continent of Westeros." Since I haven't read the Song of Ice and Fire series of fantasy novels by George R. R. Martin, nor have I seen a single episode of its television adaptation Game of Thrones, I immediately thought of Mordred, the illegitimate son of King Arthur and Morgan Le Fay in T. H. White's novel The Once and Future King (based on Thomas Mallory's Le Morte d'Arthur), and subsequently adapted into the musical production and motion picture Camelot, among many other interpretations of the Arthurian legend.

Apropos of the typical "prequel" conundrum, where the audience already knows that the hero will survive every dire predicament and eventually (1) become King, (2) get the girl, and (3) live happily until he decides to depart Middle Earth when he gets damn good and ready, the proposed "LOTR" television series and spin-offs may have to take a page (or several pages) from Star Trek, The Once and Future King, and The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, about which Wikipedia says:

The Curious Case of Benjamin Button is a 2008 American romantic fantasy drama film directed by David Fincher. The storyline by Eric Roth and Robin Swicord is loosely based on the 1922 short story of the same name by F. Scott Fitzgerald. The film stars Brad Pitt as a man who ages in reverse and Cate Blanchett as the love interest throughout his life.

As most sentient carbon-based life forms on Planet Earth know by now, in the most recent reboot of the half-century-old Star Trek television-and-movie franchise, Mr Spock comes back from the future through a black hole and thus disrupts the time continuum, altering the fates of the U. S. S. Enterprise crew who then get to live different lives than those they already lived in previous films and television programs. In The Once and Future King, the "wizard" Merlyn lives through time backwards, as does Benjamin Button. The Actress Cate Blanchette, of course, played the Ultimate Elf-female, Galadriel, in the Peter Jackon LOTR and Hobbit films. Not to put too fine a point on the possibilities here: with the whole gang of "wizards" -- i.e., "Istari" -- coming back from the future (or somewhere "in the West") through a black hole in the universe, every character and situation conceived by J. R. R. Tolkien can now undergo an "evolution" towards an unknown and ever-expanding "future." Prequel problem solved. Thank you T. H. White, David Fincher, and J. J. Abrams.

In the new, alternate timeline, not only will Aragorn get it on with Finduilas (producing the illegitimate Boromir) while her much-older husband Denethor sits drooling up in his tower in front of his Palantir, but Gimli the Dwarf and Galadriel will manage to cuckold both Celeborn and Legolas at the same time. I think I begin to see how this will work ...

William Cloud Hicklin

11-28-2017, 08:33 PM

The key thing about the "Jon Snow moment" is that it's sort of a Turin/Oedipus/Kullervo moment. You see, Jon's alleged father and everyone else has been lying, or duped, about his parentage since his birth*, and only a handful of people know who his parents really were (not including his girlfriend...)

*Jon's mother died in childbirth and her brother claimed the baby boy as his own bastard got on some wench, to spare her memory the taint of immorality. **

**And to protect the kid's life, since given who the real father was there were lots of people who would consider infanticide an option.

Michael Murry

11-28-2017, 09:53 PM

**And to protect the kid's life, since given who the real father was there were lots of people who would consider infanticide an option."

Do you mean, like Elrond taking in Aragorn and adopting him as a foster son after the two-year-old baby's father, Arathorn II, met a violent death; naming the kid "Estel" to conceal his identity because of all the people who would want to kill him if they knew his true lineage? That G. R. R. Martin sure does know how to write "original" fantasy. But thanks for explaining the "Jon Snow moment." Now I know whatever it means to know something like that.

Still, I prefer Mordred as the quintessential bastard son of an English king cuckolded by his favorite knight. I loved that line of his from Camelot: "It's not the earth the meek inherit, it's the dirt." Can't beat that for pithy dialog.

Michael Murry

11-29-2017, 03:36 AM

Hey! That title-line I thought up a few postings ago gives me an idea for some vericose versification. Like:

Fast-Food Fulminations on televised Fan Fiction

Not Lord of the "Rings" (as in “onion”)
But Lard of the "Fries" (as in “French”),
Where the grease on the tongue counts as “flavor”
If the nose can put up with the stench.

Once again the “Istari,” or, “wizards”
Will return just in time for the feast,
Being “sent back” by "someone" to “fix things”
Just when everyone thought them deceased.

Their appearance, though, causes some problems,
For a Cause must precede its Effect.
So if Future comes back to the Present
Doesn't that leave the both of them wrecked?

Anyway, getting back to the re-make,
Or the re-boot of Middle Earth time,
Nothing has to make sense on the TV;
Not for any known reason or rhyme.

Like some boys left alone on an island
After all the adults disappear
Would they think up refined entertainment
Or descend to cheap killing and fear?

Stick around for this week's exploitation:
Every shop-worn cliché in the book
Which our next episodes will continue,
Feeding you both the worm and the hook.

Michael Murry, "The Misfortune Teller," Copyright 2017

That will have to do for the present -- just in time before The Vikings, Season Five resumes tomorrow night, November 29 at 9:00 pm on The History Channel.

Huinesoron

11-29-2017, 06:56 AM

While I agree that the most likely subject will be Young Aragorn (aka The Strider), I don't think it's quite a foregone conclusion. Pitchwife has already mentioned Westerness, though I think the level of Silm/UT involvement would be pushing it for now. But there is another story of Middle-earth - one filled with romance, catastrophe, known characters, grand battles (which The Strider would or should lack), and even a handful of hobbits. And best of all, it can be found - say it with me - entirely in the Appendices. :D

I'm talking, of course, about the Fall of Arthedain and the end of the Line of Kings in Gondor. It's one of the more detailed stories in the Appendices, and has the authentic Middle-earth 'feel' without being tied too strongly to the War of the Ring. It stars the Witch-King as primary antagonist, allows the creators to build entirely original societies (neither Angmar nor Arthedain are really 'shown' anywhere), but still has room for everything up to and including appearances by Legolas, Gandalf, Elrond, a hobbit named Baggins (at the fall of Fornost), and even Gollum (somehow!).

Back when The Hobbit movies were just out, I conjured up a breakdown of how Middle-earth: The Fall of Kings could work as a movie trilogy, and as a series it's arguably better: you don't have to find semi-arbitrary break-points in the plot (and in particular, you don't have to compress the entire war with Angmar into Film #2). I can't seem to find a Barrow-Downs policy on links, so if this isn't acceptable let me know and I'll remove and summarise it, but this is my original Livejournal post on the topic:

Middle-earth: The Fall of Kings - Line of Elendil, Last King of Arnor, & Throne of Gondor (https://huinesoron.livejournal.com/133381.html)

Whatever the series is, I kind of hope it goes well - it would be nice to visit Middle-earth again, even if it is a(nother) modified version. But... yeah, I'm not overly hopeful.

William Cloud Hicklin

11-30-2017, 05:10 PM

Michael Murry

12-01-2017, 01:41 PM

Thanks again, Mr Hicklin, for helping me to better understand the "Jon Snow" thing. Since I'll never read the books or sit through even ten minutes of the television series, I have to depend upon others to fill me in on the plot, characterizations, etc. Given the popularity of this kind of standard television fantasy, the forthcoming "Lord of the Rings" version will have much low-lying pasture to plow, so to speak. I have to wonder what the relatively tame and tepid Tolkien mythology has to offer today's consumer of commercialized, hack-and-slash, comic-book "entertainment."

The "royal bastard" theme has certainly gone though any number of permutations over the centuries. For example: In the current Vikings (now in its fifth season on The History Channel) the future Anglo-Saxon King Alfred the Great of Wessex (i.e., England) owes his paternal DNA not to his mother's official husband, Prince (now King) Aethelwulf, but to Athelstan, a Christian priest captured and then sort-of adopted by the Viking leader Ragnar Lothbrok who drags him back and forth between Norway and England as a sort of personal confidante/interpreter/geographer. Somewhere along the line, Athestan becomes more pagan than Christian (before reversing the process later) and has sex with (thereby impregnating) Princess Judith, enraging her husband, Prince Aethlewulf, but only firing the desires of Aethlewulf's father, King Eckbert, who then takes his own son's wife (and Alfred's mother) for a mistress. How shocking! Royal personages and priests behaving badly! Shame on them.

As for Camelot, I think -- according to Wikipedia -- that Alan Jay Lerner did the book and lyrics while Frederick Loewe did the music. I never could get straight which of those two did what. I just loved the music and lyrics. I read The Once and Future King decades ago and really should go back and read it again. I especially appreciated the concept of Merlyn the magician living backwards through time. Something about that always reminded me of Arthur C. Clark's Law: namely, that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." All those fireworks that Gandalf kept detonating for show may have amazed the hobbits and other denizens of Middle Earth but only because they had not yet ventured far enough "to the East" to meet the Chinese who invented gunpowder but didn't realize its full implications. Tolkien certainly got a first hand glimpse of that explosive technological magic in the trenches of The Great War of 1914-1918. It does not seem to me that Gandalf really understood what he had let loose in the "Western" world with his little "magic" firecracker shows and Tolkien, who should have understood this lethal technology better than most, makes nothing of it at all (unless I missed something).

Anyway, getting back to Tolkien's mythology as per the Appendices: in 2933 of the Third Age, Lord Elrond "receives [the two-year-old Aragorn] as a foster son and gives him the name Estel (Hope); his ancestry is concealed." This "foster son" gambit, of course, makes Aragorn the foster brother of Elron's two sons. It also makes Elrond's daughter, Arwyn, Aragorn's older -- 2,690 years older -- foster sister. Logically, this makes any romantic relationship between the two foster siblings a form of "foster incest." Not just that, but in a reversal of the older male robbing the younger female cradle, we have the younger male cradle robbing the older female assisted living facility. Something tells me that young Aragorn may have fallen for an elvish female version of Dorian Gray. But one can only hope ...

Rhun charioteer

12-03-2017, 03:25 AM

Do you mean, like Elrond taking in Aragorn and adopting him as a foster son after the two-year-old baby's father, Arathorn II, met a violent death; naming the kid "Estel" to conceal his identity because of all the people who would want to kill him if they knew his true lineage? That G. R. R. Martin sure does know how to write "original" fantasy. But thanks for explaining the "Jon Snow moment." Now I know whatever it means to know something like that.

Still, I prefer Mordred as the quintessential bastard son of an English king cuckolded by his favorite knight. I loved that line of his from Camelot: "It's not the earth the meek inherit, it's the dirt." Can't beat that for pithy dialog.
Jon Snow is somewhat like Aragorn in that is real father was the crown prince(hence being the true king) you see who ran off with Eddard Stark's sister, this created a chain of events that resulted in Jon'a real father dying in a rebellion at the hands of Ned Stark's sisters betrothed who by the way passionately hated the family of the crown prince whom he believed stole away and raped his betrothed. Hence Eddard Stark lying about Jon's actual parentage and defaming his own honor and reputation because said betrothed hated the family of crown prince even though Eddard Stark and his sister's betrothed were close friends who were fostered together. Despite this Eddard's sister's betrothed hated that family and would have had no compunctions about killing the child if he knew who the real father was hence Eddard claiming the boy as his own bastard son.

It's hinted in the books and basically confirmed in the TV show Jon is the rightful king and the "Azor Ahai" a sort of prophesied savior figure at the same time.

It's very convoluted but still follows fantasy tropes in the end whether Martin admits it or not.

William Cloud Hicklin

12-04-2017, 12:14 PM

As for Camelot, I think -- according to Wikipedia -- that Alan Jay Lerner did the book and lyrics while Frederick Loewe did the music.

Quite right, my bad. Loewe however was a brilliant composer, especially in stylistic pastiche to fit the setting.

William Cloud Hicklin

12-04-2017, 12:21 PM

Andsigil

12-04-2017, 03:31 PM

I'm deathly afraid that this Amazon series will contain every banal, contrived, idiotic trope of political correctness that anyone in Hollywood can think of, and that it will dash my hopes for this series upon the rocks of Thangorodrim.

William Cloud Hicklin

12-04-2017, 07:49 PM

Nerwen

12-05-2017, 12:22 AM

Game of Thrones (and the Martin books) are much better than that.
...Whilst still being possibly the single most over-hyped and over-rated series I can think of, off the top of my head.:p

As for "Lord of the Rings: The Early Years", I am very confident now that it is going to suck like the deepest, vilest slime-pool in all the Dead Marshes. For some reason I'm quite looking forward to it.:smokin:

Michael Murry

12-05-2017, 10:14 AM

"Estel's" identity wasn't that much of a secret; at best it was classified Confidential since it was known to all of Elrond's household, all the Dunedain, Gandalf, Galadriel, Celeborn, Haldir and even Bilbo. The Dunedain, after all, knew good and well who their hereditary chieftain was and who he was descended from.

I don't own DVD copies of the three Peter Jackson "Hobbit" movies, so I have to depend on youtube to look up various scenes to refresh my memory on the occasions when I want to comment on something related to these of awful film experiences. In terms of this discussion thread, I took a particular interest in the obvious sequel-set-up scenes near the end of The Batttle of the Five Armies when the "young Elf lord" Legolas takes leave of his father, King Thranduil without a clue as to where he wanted to go and what he might possibly do. In a typical Hollywood "western," the hero cowboy would simply mount up and slowly ride off on his horse into the setting sun. For "royal" elves like Prince Legolas in a Peter Jackson movie, this would involve riding away "into the West" on an enormous CGI moose with antlers spanning twenty-five feet, at least. But I digress ...

I went over all this "Legolas leaving" stuff in comment #74 above so I don't want to repeat all that here. I only wanted to figure out where the next movies might go on the basis of where "the narrative" left off at the end of The Hobbit in 2942 when Bilbo returns to the Shire with his little magic ring. Specifically, I wondered why King Thranduil didn't tell his son, Legolas: "Just head on over to Imladris (i.e., Rivendell) and check out this ten-year-old boy Aragorn, the true heir to the throne of Gondor." Why bother with all the "Confidential" name-concealing stuff if everyone in Imladris -- except Aragorn himself -- knew the real story? And what would Legolas do in Imladris for another decade while waiting for Aragorn to grow up, turn twenty (in 2951), learn his true name, meet his older foster-sister Arwyn, and go out into the wild where he would meet and become friends with Gandalf five years later in 2956? Why does King Thanduil play these stupid "figure it out for yourself" mind games on his own son when he could just let him in on what so many other people already know even when Aragorn himself doesn't? I just don't see how this works.

At any rate, Tolkien didn't mention Legolas until the Council of Elrond (in October of 3018) where Elrond reveals Aragorn's true identity to the assembled guests, Legolas included. According to Tolkien, King Thranduil had sent his son Legolas to Rivendell to tell Lord Elrond and other important persons that Gollum had escaped from the wood-elves' rather lax supervision. As Appendix B tells us, Aragorn had captured Gollum and turned him over to the elves and Gandalf for interrogation the previous year (3017) so one would presume that King Thranduil's son Legolas had at least met Aragorn back home in Mirkwood at the time of this turnover. So why did King Thranduil send his son Legolas on a wild goose chase for decades when he could have told him: "Just stay here with us in Mirkwood and this 'Strider' character will come visit us in another seventy-five years (3017) bearing a disgusting little creature for us to keep prisoner for him and his wizard buddy Gandalf? Then, when we lose the foul wretch like we lost the hobbit Bilbo and some dwarves earlier this year (2942), you can take a message to Rivendell the following year (in 3018) and find out this guy Strider's true name along with everyone else. So why not just save yourself a lot of needless wandering around to no purpose?."

Something tells me that this Legolas character has a lot of wandering around lost to do in these forthcoming movies -- at least, "based on" the information Tolkien provided in Appendix B of Lord of the Rings. Bilbo's poem might even require some modification:

Pyrite, or "fool's gold" does glitter.
Some wanderers truly are lost.
Bad movies make viewers feel bitter
When they think how much tickets now cost.

From the ashes some soot shall be scattered
On the living room floor made of clay.
For the rich only one lesson mattered:
The penniless once more shall pay.

Morthoron

12-22-2017, 08:38 PM

As for "Lord of the Rings: The Early Years", I am very confident now that it is going to suck like the deepest, vilest slime-pool in all the Dead Marshes. For some reason I'm quite looking forward to it.:smokin:

Putting a Game of Thrones lusty spin on things, just think of the pedophilic delight of a several hundred year-old Arwen getting the hots for barely-pubescent Aragorn. Dirty ol' Elvesses! Not to mention the menage-a-thirty between the orcs and Celebrian (with the Aredhel-like insinuation that "it is not said that she was wholly unwilling"). Face it, Elrond got pretty dull after a few millenia. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

Why are you glaring at me like that?

William Cloud Hicklin

12-25-2017, 08:29 PM

Well, they'll have to augment Tolkien's rather limited cast of female characters just to get to requisite number of boobies onscreen

Kuruharan

12-25-2017, 09:39 PM

Well, they'll have to augment Tolkien's rather limited cast of female characters just to get to requisite number of boobies onscreen

I'm pretty sure it is a foregone conclusion that they are going to do that anyway.

Huinesoron

12-26-2017, 03:13 AM

I'm pretty sure it is a foregone conclusion that they are going to do that anyway.

Which... isn't a bad thing?

I mean, except the titillation part. But if a 'suggested by The Lord of the Rings' TV show has to exist, then one that used only characters and events from the books (outside the actual timeline of the War of the Rings) is going to be very shallow and empty. Middle-earth is an amazingly rich tapestry of geography, history, and cultures, but Tolkien only sketched in a few actual people outside specific times.

So more people will absolutely have to be added in, and honestly I'd rather they be 'new' than the alternative of shoehorning everyone into spaces that are already there. If the story is Young Aragorn, do we really want every character in Gondor to be Baby Ioreth, Baranor Father of Beregond, the rangers Mablungsdad, Damrodsdad, and Anbornsdad...?

If they're going to do this, then I would much rather see genuinely new characters reflecting the diversity and lack thereof of Gondor, Rohan, Bree and so forth, than having them succumb to Star Wars disease (which has recently provided a story about the Stormtrooper who stunned Princess Leia at the start of the first film - he was of course a conflicted person with a rich inner life).

Obvious caveat: it would be nice if the new characters were from Middle-earth, rather than the Westeros refugees we're probably in line for...

William Cloud Hicklin

12-26-2017, 07:30 AM

then one that used only characters and events from the books (outside the actual timeline of the War of the Rings) is going to be very shallow and empty.

I got news for you: It's gonna be shallow and empty no matter what.

Morthoron

12-26-2017, 10:53 PM

Lord of the Schwing.

Andsigil

12-27-2017, 04:33 AM

I got news for you: It's gonna be shallow and empty no matter what.

And filled to the brim with PC tropes to the point that it's hardly recognizable as a Tolkien work.

skip spence

12-30-2017, 05:14 PM

Wow, how did this happen? I'm genuinely shocked the estate sold them the rights. Then again I'm not. Christoffer is old and the younger generation would be hard put to decline a (I'm sure) very significant offer.

There was a time not that long ago this would excite me somewhat, at least instill a little vain hope that the series perhaps would be good after all. Not so now. There's really no chance of that. Not for Tolkienistas like us.

Inziladun

12-30-2017, 05:23 PM

There was a time not that long ago this would excite me somewhat, at least instill a little vain hope that the series perhaps would be good after all. Not so now. There's really no chance of that. Not for Tolkienistas like us.

Sadly, you're right.

Tolkien himself said way back in 1955 that he thought LOTR was "unsuitable for 'dramatisation'". He was quite correct. The language, story, and characterizations are sublime and distinctive enough to make an accurate adaptation, as least as far as the ephemeral qualities, impossible. Another GoT clone with swords, sorcery, violence, and maybe as much skin as they can get away with. Why do an adaptation of someone else's work if you're just going to undo it?

Morthoron

12-30-2017, 06:21 PM

Sadly, you're right.

Tolkien himself said way back in 1955 that he thought LOTR was "unsuitable for 'dramatisation'". He was quite correct. The language, story, and characterizations are sublime and distinctive enough to make an accurate adaptation, as least as far as the ephemeral qualities, impossible. Another GoT clone with swords, sorcery, violence, and maybe as much skin as they can get away with. Why do an adaptation of someone else's work if you're just going to undo it?

Why remake classic films or TV shows at all? Why disembogue ubiquitous sequels ad nauseam (Rocky, Die Hard, Halloween, Fast and Furious, Star Wars, Godzillas, King Kongs, et al)? Did we need two Hulk remakes within a five year period? Which number re-adaptation of Superman, Batman and Spiderman are we on? I've lost count.

There was a period when remakes were more sporadic but better done, usually replacing a silent film that movie viewers would no longer watch (Robin Hood, Ben Hur and The Hunchback of Notre Dame come to mind), but now there seems to be a decided dearth of original ideas reaching the screen, or at least the proliferation of remakes and sequels seems to have saturated the market. Often, it seems genuinely surprising when someone offers a film of genuine depth and originality, and not just a reiteration of a well-worn theme.

Hell, they continue to reuse the "Wilhelm scream" (372 movies and counting). What, you can't come up with one on your own?

Galin

12-31-2017, 08:22 AM

Maybe Hulk appear in new show Ring Lord?

Never know.

Morthoron

12-31-2017, 02:21 PM

Maybe Hulk appear in new show Ring Lord?

Never know.

...Green is his skin,
And his pants are yellow.

Galin

01-01-2018, 09:14 AM

Pants no help Hulk ratings!

yet yellow pants available in Yunkai plaza (go Amazon river, take left)... lo lo price... buy now or Hulk smash!

Inziladun

01-01-2018, 10:44 AM

Pants no help Hulk ratings!

If your name is Legolas, on the other hand....

Morsul the Dark

01-01-2018, 12:00 PM

Playing devil's advocate, seems to me having a story based on lore in the Appendices is the safest bet as far as adaptation goes. You have the outline for framework but within that lots of room to maneuver. Unlike adapting a fully fleshed story such as LoTR or TH I think it'll have a much better chance at being good, since there's less screen to book comparisons.

Inziladun

01-01-2018, 12:11 PM

Kuruharan

03-21-2018, 03:27 PM

For some reason I am not feeling reassured by any of this (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/amazons-lord-of-the-rings-series-reportedly-will-cost-500-million-2018-03-20).

I can't figure out why...

Snowdog

03-28-2018, 09:17 PM

Amazon isn’t planning a conventional adaptation of “Lord of the Rings” along the lines of Jackson’s movies. Instead Amazon has declared it will make a “Lord of the Rings” prequel with new plot material.

Sounds pretty good to me in the fact it will not be a clone of the PJ fanfic crap.

Nerwen

03-29-2018, 04:27 AM

Sounds pretty good to me in the fact it will not be a clone of the PJ fanfic crap.
??? Aren't they basically saying it'll be *actual* fan-fiction?

Huinesoron

03-29-2018, 04:55 AM

??? Aren't they basically saying it'll be *actual* fan-fiction?

... which isn't necessarily a bad thing. The media is littered with sequels and 'adaptations' which are original works by people who enjoyed the source. The current crop of Star Wars films; the MCU; the various 'modern Sherlock Holmes' series; every Star Trek since DS9.

None of them represent what the creator would have written: rather, they take us on a visit to that world as visualised by a new writer. The same thing applies here: it won't be Tolkien - but nothing except the books ever will be (unless Christopher reveals that his father penned a secret movie script before he died).

I think I would rather have a good 'new tale of Middle-earth' series than a bad or even mediocre direct adaptation. No, it won't give us the scenes we love - we won't get to see a proper rendition of Frodo's stand at the Fords of Bruinen, or Gandalf's confrontation with the Witch-King (side-note: apparently my favourite scenes all involve defiant people on horseback, that's kinda weird) - but, to paraphrase Sam: they can take us to see Elves, Mr. Frodo. Elves!

I will gladly let them have the Adventures of Young Strider Meeting Everyone With a Name, if they will let me spend an hour in Lothlorien.

hS

Kuruharan

03-30-2018, 09:31 PM

but, to paraphrase Sam: they can take us to see Elves, Mr. Frodo. Elves!"

But will it be anything remotely recognizable as Tolkien's elves?

Huinesoron

03-31-2018, 12:59 AM

If it's good, yes. If it's not, no. :D If instead of 'good original vs mediocre adaptation' the choice is 'bad original or bad adaptation'... then I just won't watch it.

hS

Nerwen

03-31-2018, 04:28 AM

... which isn't necessarily a bad thing. The media is littered with sequels and 'adaptations' which are original works by people who enjoyed the source. The current crop of Star Wars films; the MCU; the various 'modern Sherlock Holmes' series; every Star Trek since DS9.
Weel... not all of us consider your examples to be necessarily good things either, Huey.:p

None of them represent what the creator would have written: rather, they take us on a visit to that world as visualised by a new writer. The same thing applies here: it won't be Tolkien - but nothing except the books ever will be (unless Christopher reveals that his father penned a secret movie script before he died).

I think I would rather have a good 'new tale of Middle-earth' series than a bad or even mediocre direct adaptation. No, it won't give us the scenes we love - we won't get to see a proper rendition of Frodo's stand at the Fords of Bruinen, or Gandalf's confrontation with the Witch-King (side-note: apparently my favourite scenes all involve defiant people on horseback, that's kinda weird) - but, to paraphrase Sam: they can take us to see Elves, Mr. Frodo. Elves!

I will gladly let them have the Adventures of Young Strider Meeting Everyone With a Name, if they will let me spend an hour in Lothlorien.

hS
But how *likely* is The Adventures of Young Strider Meeting Everyone With A Name to be actually good? As opposed to an orgy of (possibly enjoyable) fan-service?

Herald of Mandos

04-01-2018, 04:38 AM

Latest news here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=19187)! Check it out!

Inziladun

06-11-2018, 03:22 PM

Just saw a new article (https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/lord-rings-tv-series-neither-155815160.html) about the proposed series.

They describe it as a "partnership" between Amazon and the Estate (wonder how CT feels about that).

One quote that stands out:

The studio head said the only thing she knows for sure is the show will land somewhere between being completely original and being a faithful adaptation.

I just wonder about the balance there...

Huinesoron

06-12-2018, 04:24 AM

The deal Amazon landed with the estate gives it access to nearly all of the material in the Middle Earth saga (although not 100% of it).

??? I'm going to assume this is just plain wrong, as Hobbit+LotR is nothing like 'nearly all', and I still don't believe the Estate would hand over the Silm+UT. I suppose it's possible CoH, B&L, and FoG could be included, as they're 'standalone' books... but I still don't think so.

The rumours I've seen are that they've approved 5 seasons (risky!), with the first probably being Young Aragorn. I think it's likely that the other seasons will follow the first, chronologically, which means... well, what are the options?

-Adventures of the Old Took. Obviously a bit out of its timeline, but viable, and a hilarious notion.
-Adventures of Tom Bombadil. ^_^
-Adventures of Balin in Moria. A bit of a downer.
-Adventures of Not-So-Young Legolas (And Tauriel). Time to reuse those Hobbit movie sets!
-Adventures of Evil Saruman. C'mon, we could definitely have a season of Saruman's fall into darkness. (Again, serious timeline issues, but this is Movie-earth.)
-Adventures of Young Imrahil. If Young Aragorn doesn't cover the Corsairs, then this Dol Amroth-centric series will.
-Adventures of Young(??) Galadriel. Who wants to stay in the woods when you can go be shiny at people?
-Adventures of Young Theoden. Horses! ... more horses!
-Adventures of Young Talion. Because what we really need is Mordor the Green and Pleasant Land, right? ... right?!
-Adventures of The War In The North. I suppose we should pay lip service to the whole plot of the books, yeah? In which case...
-Adventures in Scouring the Shire. Hey, PJ left it out, so we get to put it in.

And, finally...

-Adventures in Gardening. Just a whole season of Master Samwise peacefully tending his garden, looking after his kids, and being the best dang mayor the Shire has ever had.

hS

Rhun charioteer

06-16-2018, 10:24 PM

Regarding the young Aragorn point-the appendices do give some material to work with.

My attitude towards this is cautious neutrality-if it turns out to be good and faithful both the lore and spirit of the work then I will be pleased. If its mediocre then well at least it wasn't terrible, if its terrible well then I will be unhappy but unsurprised.

Andsigil

06-17-2018, 07:13 AM

I was thinking about this thread the other day. Assuming that this series doesn't become a cesspool of intersectional politics, I'd genuinely like to see all original characters and storylines, with the known Tolkien characters in the background or in cameo appearances.

The reason for this is because we already know the fates of the existing characters, which takes some of the adventure out of the story.

Example: Aragorn is in a cliffhanger ending. Well, it's not really a cliffhanger because we know that, no matter what, Aragorn will survive to appear later in Rivendell and save Middle Earth afterward.

Morthoron

06-17-2018, 11:20 AM

Example: Aragorn is in a cliffhanger ending. Well, it's not really a cliffhanger because we know that, no matter what, Aragorn will survive to appear later in Rivendell and save Middle Earth afterward.

How about Aragorn's younger, and decidedly not as smart, missing brother Bewilderon? Lost in the woods as a youth (because he's unable to get his ranger badge as an Elf Scout), he gets raised by an irascible but loveable family of Orcs who, try as they may, just can't get Bewilderon to assimilate into Orkish society. Much humor and confusion ensues as Bewilderon and Aragorn's paths keep crossing throughout Middle-earth.

Nerwen

06-18-2018, 08:01 AM

How about Aragorn's younger, and decidedly not as smart, missing brother Bewilderon? Lost in the woods as a youth (because he's unable to get his ranger badge as an Elf Scout), he gets raised by an irascible but loveable family of Orcs who, try as they may, just can't get Bewilderon to assimilate into Orkish society. Much humor and confusion ensues as Bewilderon and Aragorn's paths keep crossing throughout Middle-earth.
Younger? Identical twins, surely?

Inziladun

06-18-2018, 08:51 AM

Younger? Identical twins, surely?

Who eventually turns to evil out of jealousy of the "perfect" Aragorn, and ends up becoming the Mouth of Sauron! They ought to hire me as a writer. :D

Formendacil

06-18-2018, 03:38 PM

Who eventually turns to evil out of jealousy of the "perfect" Aragorn, and ends up becoming the Mouth of Sauron! They ought to hire me as a writer. :D

Nah, the real twist will come (at the end of season three or four) when Aragorn is killed and Evilagorn takes his place as part of some long con to infiltrate Lórien--but it turns out that Arwen is there and he falls as head-over-heels as his twin did and he commits to BEING Aragorn thenceforth and was actually the Strider that we come to know in The Lord of the Rings all along--the pipeweed (such an unelvish habit) is the only indicator left.

Faramir Jones

06-20-2018, 10:08 AM

Formendacil, I found what you wrote here interesting:

Nah, the real twist will come (at the end of season three or four) when Aragorn is killed and Evilagorn takes his place as part of some long con to infiltrate Lórien--but it turns out that Arwen is there and he falls as head-over-heels as his twin did and he commits to BEING Aragorn thenceforth and was actually the Strider that we come to know in The Lord of the Rings all along--the pipeweed (such an unelvish habit) is the only indicator left.

However, I then asked myself this question: 'Should you be giving certain people bad ideas?' :D:(:rolleyes:

Boromir88

07-13-2018, 09:04 AM

I just wonder about the balance there... ~Inzil

It is a difficult balance, but can be done. Sounds like they're trying to go with a "faithful fan-fiction" approach. Not too dissimilar from our RPG structure on the 'Downs. I was never very involved in the role-playing forums here, but I always appreciated the structure to keep it grounded in Tolkien and Middle-earth, and not stray into the Star Wars realm of fan-fiction.

We could only guess at this point...but maybe "completely original" in terms of characters and plot, but a "faithful adaptation" in terms of setting, background and overall vision (in what leads up to Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings").

It can be successful and funny that essentially the Lord of the Rings isn't so much a black and white battle between good vs. evil. It's more about the battle between Hope and Despair. "Hope" in the even the very wise can not predict all ends, there's always a "Fool's Hope." Despair in "there is no hope, I know and can predict what the end is going to be." For me, when I think of the Hollywood business, despair has won. I know we're going to get the same recycled, uninspiring, dumbed down attempts to be "original" and appeal to the masses.

Rhun charioteer

02-17-2019, 07:50 PM

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.avclub.com/amazons-teasing-its-lord-of-the-rings-series-with-a-map-1832655334/amp

the Amazon teaser has a map that extends beyond the sea of Rhun. To be pedantic, I don't think the orocarni were that close. They should be further in the east.

Anyway, though we are getting these minor teasers, and Amazon must be intending to build hype slowly.

Zigûr

02-17-2019, 09:48 PM

To be pedantic, I don't think the orocarni were that close. They should be further in the east.
I agree, but then again they're not necessarily meant to be the Orocarni. They could just be an Eastern mountain chain someone made up to add something to the map. For all we know, whoever added them to the map has no idea what an "Orocarni" even is.

Someone on Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/aqxc89/amazon_just_posted_this/egjhiya/) (who amusingly refers to it as "That stupid mountain range") claims that this non-Tolkien addition to the map predates this Amazon series and possibly appears in the films too. I'm curious as to where it originated.

UPDATE: Maybe it originates from the "official" (ie film-official) maps made for the Hobbit films, e.g. this (https://s3.amazonaws.com/spoonflower/public/design_thumbnails/0299/0603/rrrrHobbit-Map.jpg.ai_highres.png). I wonder why on earth anyone felt the need to add a non-canonical element to the maps for that. Maybe at some point in the film script "Eastern Dwarves" were going to be mentioned or something, along with the kitchen sink presumably. However, the Reddit person claims (in a rather vehement discourse in another thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/aqx70g/this_unlabeled_map_was_posted_less_than_an_hour/)) that they pre-date even the Lord of the Rings films, although they don't give any evidence for that.

If it is meant to be the Orocarni, presumably the coast wouldn't be far away and Rhûn as a whole would be tiny. In my opinion, Rhûn should be huge: far, far larger than the Middle-earth we see, like comparing Europe and Asia.

Rhun charioteer

02-17-2019, 11:10 PM

I agree. Rhun should be vast.

I suppose it could be a connecting chain of the orocarni which stretch westward or something.

But given the fact that it is so noticeable and the series is about Aragorn who did go to Rhun-I think that might be why the map has more of Rhun shown. Becuase it will be a location of the series.

Also I find it amazing people were getting so excited over the lack of Beleriand "it must be the second or third age, no Beleriand!"

I was like well yes, they don't have the rights to the silmarillion.

Huinesoron

02-18-2019, 06:03 AM

UPDATE: Maybe it originates from the "official" (ie film-official) maps made for the Hobbit films, e.g. this (https://s3.amazonaws.com/spoonflower/public/design_thumbnails/0299/0603/rrrrHobbit-Map.jpg.ai_highres.png). I wonder why on earth anyone felt the need to add a non-canonical element to the maps for that. Maybe at some point in the film script "Eastern Dwarves" were going to be mentioned or something, along with the kitchen sink presumably. However, the Reddit person claims (in a rather vehement discourse in another thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/aqx70g/this_unlabeled_map_was_posted_less_than_an_hour/)) that they pre-date even the Lord of the Rings films, although they don't give any evidence for that.

Someone else on the Reddit thread links to the map from the Fellowship movie (https://i.imgur.com/rmZSwSZ.png), which also features them. Neither movie map shows the weirdly quartered forest, though; that seems original to Amazon (and to my mind confirms that they're intending to go there).

Those rivers coming east off the Sea of Rhun aren't on the Tolkien maps either; they seem to originate from the old Middle-earth Role-Playing game (MERP). This map (https://i.imgur.com/wT3BQz9.jpg) (1997) shows them, for instance, though I can't find any maps around that date that extend further east. (This version from 1982 (http://cdn.wallpapername.com/7970x5500/20121224/the%20lord%20of%20the%20rings%20maps%20middleearth %20jrr%20tolkien%207970x5500%20wallpaper_www.wallp apername.com_62.jpg) doesn't show the rivers or the mountains.)

Interestingly, overlaying either Ambarkanta map IV or V onto my map matching Beleriand to Himling-Fuin-Morwen (https://i.imgur.com/NnXmPjT.png) (you can line up the Blue Mountains and the shore of Beleriand easily, and the endpoint of the March lines up with the Bay of Balar nicely) puts the Orocarni anywhere between the eastern edge of Mirkwood, and the Misty Mountains themselves. It's pretty clear that Tolkien originally thought of his world as a lot smaller, and that the Misty Mountains and the lands around them were a much later addition.

Someone on the Reddit thread has pointed out that the compass is labelled really weirdly: instead of N-E-S-W, it reads D-Th-Nd/Ng-Z/Nj (depending on which version of the Cirth you look at; it can't be Hobbit-style runes or Norse runes, because it uses characters those don't have). That doesn't match any of the known Middle-earth languages (and no, it's not a copy of the Thorin's Map compass either), and the Hobbit/FotR maps from the films were labelled in English.

My best guess is that they used a font set up in a strange order - the Shadow of War game did that with their Tengwar, and people are generally pretty bad about checking. But you never know, there might be something to it.

hS

Huinesoron

02-18-2019, 08:13 AM

Seven for the Dwarf Lords, in their halls of stone. (https://twitter.com/LOTRonPrime/status/1097495925163868162)

"Calenardhon".

Suddenly this map is 10x more exciting.

EDIT: Could it be the War of the Elves and Sauron? We've got the Ring poem, and the presence of old names like Calenardhon (assumed Gondorian but could be earlier) and Lindon (almost always Second Age). We've got a big obvious space to the right of 'Eriador', and no similar space to fit 'Arthedain' (if they were doing the Fall of Arnor). And it would make a good story, in the Game of Thrones way: Celebrimbor delving into Forbidden Arts with Satanic help, Numenor, if not going full slaver yet, at least utterly disregarding the rights of the local peoples, Lindon forting up and refusing to let anyone in, and Annatar the Bright wandering around stirring up trouble...

(This was suggested to me by someone on another forum, but most of the detail is mine.)

hS

Kuruharan

02-18-2019, 08:32 PM

The Orocarni (if that is what those are supposed to be) should be a much larger mountain range.

Given the names on the map, I agree with Huinesoron that the Second Age looks more likely.

Rhun charioteer

02-18-2019, 11:06 PM

They've said Young Aragorn, second age would require either the Silmarillion, or the writers are delving ever deeper into outright fanfic.

Huinesoron

02-22-2019, 04:27 AM

They've said Young Aragorn, second age would require either the Silmarillion, or the writers are delving ever deeper into outright fanfic.

Do we know what they have the rights to? The rumours at the time of the announcement were that Amazon had been negotiating with the Estate, which they shouldn't have to do if they were just using the same rights as New Line did. And with Christopher retired (and retired at a very pointed time), it's not impossible that they've acquired the right to use Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, at least.

As for Young Aragorn: yes, they did indeed. So why are they posting maps featuring Calenardhon and Lindon? The latter could be a mistake; the former would require them to have forgotten about Rohan, which Aragorn will probably actually visit.

hS

Zigûr

02-22-2019, 07:42 AM

As for Young Aragorn: yes, they did indeed. So why are they posting maps featuring Calenardhon and Lindon? The latter could be a mistake; the former would require them to have forgotten about Rohan, which Aragorn will probably actually visit.
I have a possibly-too-cynical-possibly-not suspicion that they might compress the history so drastically that Aragorn is present at the founding of Rohan, which will be presented as having existed for only about sixty years by the time of the War of the Ring, rather than five hundred.

Huinesoron

02-22-2019, 08:01 AM

I have a possibly-too-cynical-possibly-not suspicion that they might compress the history so drastically that Aragorn is present at the founding of Rohan, which will be presented as having existed for only about sixty years by the time of the War of the Ring, rather than five hundred.

... oh stars.

I would love to say this is utterly ridiculous and inconceivable, were it not for the fact that Shadow of Mordor did precisely that with, well, Mordor.

...

Well, we should at least know soon enough what they're playing at with the map.

hS

("Eorl? Nay, Eorl was my father, young Aragorn; he fought alongside your father Isildur in the Last Alliance. I am Theoden, and I will gladly serve at your side, even should an evil wizard o'erthrow my will and make me his puppet...")

Rhun charioteer

02-23-2019, 06:50 PM

Do we know what they have the rights to? The rumours at the time of the announcement were that Amazon had been negotiating with the Estate, which they shouldn't have to do if they were just using the same rights as New Line did. And with Christopher retired (and retired at a very pointed time), it's not impossible that they've acquired the right to use Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, at least.

As for Young Aragorn: yes, they did indeed. So why are they posting maps featuring Calenardhon and Lindon? The latter could be a mistake; the former would require them to have forgotten about Rohan, which Aragorn will probably actually visit.

hS

They have the rights to the Hobbit and LOTR and the appendices. They don't have the right to the Silmarillion or the unfinished tales or the HoME.

As for compressing the history, they must know that's going to enrage the Tolkien fanbase. Shadows of Mordor was popular because of its innovative and dynamic game mechanics, not its story, Amazon won't be able to use that to get away with it here.

Inziladun

02-24-2019, 09:25 AM

As for compressing the history, they must know that's going to enrage the Tolkien fanbase. Shadows of Mordor was popular because of its innovative and dynamic game mechanics, not its story, Amazon won't be able to use that to get away with it here.

I doubt the opinions of "traditional" fans have been much of a factor in the project. They're after the movie fans who only want more of the same.

Huinesoron

02-24-2019, 10:12 AM

They have the rights to the Hobbit and LOTR and the appendices. They don't have the right to the Silmarillion or the unfinished tales or the HoME.

:) Thanks; I didn't realise we'd had confirmation that the bizarre assertion from the news article back when, that '[t]he deal Amazon landed with the estate gives it access to nearly all of the material in the Middle Earth saga (although not 100% of it)', was incorrect. Good to know!

For anyone still thinking about the map, I've just posted a thread over in Books (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19298) that includes evidence that those eastern mountains are actually Tolkien's own creation, though not necessarily the fabled Orocarni.

hS

Rhun charioteer

02-24-2019, 05:52 PM

I doubt the opinions of "traditional" fans have been much of a factor in the project. They're after the movie fans who only want more of the same.

My question would then be how exactly are they planning on marketing that? The PR speak is going to be glorious in how inane it is, "we respect Tolkien's lore and detail, for creativity sake, we are making creative adaptations of the background material" or something equally PRy and corporate faced.

Huinesoron

02-25-2019, 10:01 AM

Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, (https://twitter.com/LOTRonPrime/status/1100032702357487618)

"Laurelindorenan". Whatever this is, it's NOT the late Third Age.

"Enedhwaith" is interesting; Tolkien Gateway says that the published book used "Enedwaith", without the h, but Tolkien adopted the h in later writings. Christopher used "Enedwaith" in Unfinished Tales.

"Ras Morthil" is notable only because the Druedain lingered there for a long time.

"Belfalas" is very potentially interesting, because of its status as a Numenorean Faithful stronghold.

In a nice touch, the compass on the Twitter version (but not on the browsable map (https://www.amazon.com/adlp/lotronprime)) has been updated with the correct Tengwar labels - Formen, Romen, Hyarmen, Numen.

hS

EDIT: Someone has pointed out that there were 3 days between the first and second maps, and 7 between the second and third. So... expect another one on the 6th March? ~hS

Rhun charioteer

02-25-2019, 04:42 PM

If the show isn't about Aragorn, I wonder what it could possibly be about.

Huinesoron

02-26-2019, 02:56 AM

If the show isn't about Aragorn, I wonder what it could possibly be about.

The most obvious possibility, given the Ring Poem, remains the forging of the rings and the War of the Elves and Sauron. So the question is, how much of that is in the appendices? It turns out, quite a bit!

The Second Age
These were the dark years for Men of Middle-earth. but the years of the glory of Númenor. Of events in Middle-earth the records are few and brief, and their dates are often uncertain. In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dûr many of the Sindar passed eastward. and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood the Great, was one of these. In Lindon north of the Lune dwelt Gil-galad, last heir of the kings of the Noldor in exile. He was acknowledged as High King of the Elves of the West. In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women. She was sister of Finrod Felagund, Friend-of-Men, once king of Nargothrond, who gave his life to save Beren son of Barahir.

Later (750) some of the Noldor went to Eregion, upon the west of the Misty Mountains, and near to the West-gate of Moria. This they did because they learned that mithril had been discovered in Moria. The Noldor were great craftsmen and less unfriendly to the Dwarves than the Sindar; but the friendship that grew up between the people of Durin and the Elven-smiths of Eregion was the closest that there has ever been between the two races. Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion and the greatest of their craftsmen; he was descended from Fëanor.

1200
Sauron endeavours to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him; but
the smiths of Eregion are won over. The Númenoreans begin to make permanent
havens.
c. 1500
The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They
begin the forging of the Rings of Power.

Of [Thrain's] Ring something may be said here. It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk to be the first of the Seven that was forged; and they say that it was given to the King of Khazad-dûm, Durin III, by the Elven-smiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it, since he had aided in the forging of all the Seven.

c. 1590
The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.

Throughout the Third Age the guardianship of the Three Rings was known only to those who possessed them. But at the end it became known that they had been held at first by the three greatest of the Eldar: Gil-galad, Galadriel and Círdan.

c. 1600
Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Celebrimbor
perceives the designs of Sauron.
1693
War of the Elves and Sauron begins. The Three Rings are hidden.
1695
Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
1697
Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond
retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.
1699
Sauron overruns Eriador.
1700
Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Númenor to Lindon. Sauron is defeated.
1701
Sauron is driven out of Eriador. The Westlands have peace for a long while.

The power of Moria endured throughout the Dark Years and the dominion of Sauron, for though Eregion was destroyed and the gates of Moria were shut, the halls of Khazad-dûm were too deep and strong and filled with a people too numerous and valiant for Sauron to conquer from without. Thus its wealth remained long unravished, though its people began to dwindle.

The main things missing seem to be:
-The name of Ost-in-Edhil.
-The details of how exactly the Three were hidden, including Celebrimbor's love for Galadriel.
-Celebrimbor being used as a banner by Sauron.
-The Siege of Imladris, though this is pretty well implied.

Obviously there's a lot of detail around Galadriel which isn't found in the LotR license, but if you stay away from her, you can tell virtually the entire story.

The second possibility, to my mind, remains the Fall of Arnor. The presence of Calenardhon on the map points at this, though Laurelindorenan argues against it. So far as I can recall, the final fall of Arthedain and the breaking of the Line of Kings comes entirely from the Appendices, so no licensing issues there!

It's also possible that the series is about Young Aragorn, but starts with a historical episode, a prologue writ large, showing how all this came about: the fall of Eregion provoked the first involvement of Numenor in the affairs of Middle-earth, while the fall of Arthedain obviously gave us Aragorn's line. Seems like an odd thing to tease, though.

hS

Rhun charioteer

02-26-2019, 05:01 PM

The most obvious possibility, given the Ring Poem, remains the forging of the rings and the War of the Elves and Sauron. So the question is, how much of that is in the appendices? It turns out, quite a bit!

The main things missing seem to be:
-The name of Ost-in-Edhil.
-The details of how exactly the Three were hidden, including Celebrimbor's love for Galadriel.
-Celebrimbor being used as a banner by Sauron.
-The Siege of Imladris, though this is pretty well implied.

Obviously there's a lot of detail around Galadriel which isn't found in the LotR license, but if you stay away from her, you can tell virtually the entire story.

The second possibility, to my mind, remains the Fall of Arnor. The presence of Calenardhon on the map points at this, though Laurelindorenan argues against it. So far as I can recall, the final fall of Arthedain and the breaking of the Line of Kings comes entirely from the Appendices, so no licensing issues there!

It's also possible that the series is about Young Aragorn, but starts with a historical episode, a prologue writ large, showing how all this came about: the fall of Eregion provoked the first involvement of Numenor in the affairs of Middle-earth, while the fall of Arthedain obviously gave us Aragorn's line. Seems like an odd thing to tease, though.

hS
I guess you could do that and tie it into the LOTR movie prologue. Maybe get Cate Blanchett to narrate again.

Rune Son of Bjarne

02-28-2019, 02:54 AM

The main things missing seem to be:
-The name of Ost-in-Edhil.
-The details of how exactly the Three were hidden, including Celebrimbor's love for Galadriel.
-Celebrimbor being used as a banner by Sauron.
-The Siege of Imladris, though this is pretty well implied.

I have no recolection of this at all, very disconcerting!

This puts my entire self-image as a Tolkien-nerd into question... :eek:

Huinesoron

02-28-2019, 03:21 AM

I have no recolection of this at all, very disconcerting!

This puts my entire self-image as a Tolkien-nerd into question... :eek:

Now you're making me doubt myself... :eek:

... I'm not crazy! It's in Unfinished Tales.

In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond.

Which section, though it's just a couple of paragraphs, actually does give us a fair bit more detail about the War of the Elves and Sauron:

When Sauron learned of the repentance and revolt of Celebrimbor his disguise fell and his wrath was revealed; and gathering a great force he moved over Calenardhon (Rohan) to the invasion of Eriador in the year 1695. When news of this reached Gil-galad he sent out a force under Elrond Half-elven; but Elrond had far to go, and Sauron turned north and made at once for Eregion. The scouts and vanguard of Sauron's host were already approaching when Celeborn made a sortie and drove them back; but though he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough both to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion. At last the attackers broke into Eregion with ruin and devastation, and captured the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures. Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the Mírdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked. There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose. [It is not actually said here that Sauron at this time took possession of the Seven Rings, though the implication seems clear that he did so. In Appendix A (III) to The Lord of the Rings it is said that there was a belief among the Dwarves of Durin's Folk that the Ring of Durin III, King of Khazad-dûm, was given to him by the Elven-smiths themselves, and nothing is said in the present text about the way in which the Seven Rings came into possession of the Dwarves.] Concerning the Three Rings Sauron could learn nothing from Celebrimbor; and he had him put to death. But he guessed the truth, that the Three had been committed to Elvish guardians: and that must mean to Galadriel and Gil-galad.

It's interesting that Sauron guessed Galadriel had at least one of the Three waaaay back in 1700 S.A., but by the time the Fellowship hit Lorien five thousand years later, Galadriel could still say 'He suspects, but he does not know - not yet.' She did an amazing job of keeping that secret!

hS

Rune Son of Bjarne

03-01-2019, 05:17 AM

Now you're making me doubt myself... :eek:

... I'm not crazy! It's in Unfinished Tales.

I know you are not. As soon as i read your post I checked if it was true.
The only proper conclusion is that I need to read Unfinished Tales again.

Huinesoron

03-06-2019, 09:44 AM

"One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne. In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. (https://twitter.com/LOTRonPrime/status/1103294050298257410)"

(Explorable map (https://www.amazon.com/adlp/lotronprime))

There's a lot to speculate on with this update (which may or may not be the last update). Does the labelling of all three Mountains of Moria mean the Dwarven city will play a major role? How significant is the extention of the road through Mirkwood all the way to the Iron Hills? Why have they used Sindarin for both Dimrill Dale and Lake Evendim?

The crucial thing, though, is that the cities of Elendil's sons are named Minas Anor and Minas Ithil, placing this map firmly before the fall of the latter to the Nazgul. Of course, their very appearance means that the map must post-date the fall of Numenor, neatly ruling out the war with Eregion as a possibility.

More tentatively, the North Road runs to Fornost, with no roads leading to Annuminas; I suspect this means that we're looking at a time after the throne of Arthedain moved east. And... well... there's only really one story between the division of Arnor and the fall of Minas Ithil, so I'm reasonably confident that the map is pointing (for whatever reason) at the Fall of Arnor.

Which is something I've wanted for quite some time (https://huinesoron.livejournal.com/133381.html), but would also make a lot of sense to lead in to an Aragorn series. It establishes why he's not a king (Arvedui) and why he could become one (Earnur). It also sets up the Nazgul as a hereditary enemy, which - especially if the series heads into Rhun - means they can be used as local threats for Aragorn.

hS

William Cloud Hicklin

03-06-2019, 10:33 AM

Fanfic with a budget and a distributor is still fanfic.

Huinesoron

03-06-2019, 11:11 AM

Fanfic with a budget and a distributor is still fanfic.

Yes; an adaptation will always be an adaptation. And if you don't want to view an adaptation, then whatever Amazon comes out with probably won't be for you.

But I'm still excited. ^_^

hS

Inziladun

03-06-2019, 11:30 AM

Yes; an adaptation will always be an adaptation. And if you don't want to view an adaptation, then whatever Amazon comes out with probably won't be for you.

But I'm still excited. ^_^

You and probably many others. Not I, though,

This is an old stance of mine, going all the way back (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=270837&postcount=2) to the PJ movie announcement. I think for me the sticking point is this: how dependent is my enjoyment of Tolkien's world on the manner in which he presents it? The answer, is highly.

The man was such a unique writer in his use of language, in his characterizations, and the overarching world view in the books that deeply resonates with me, that any other "take" on his work always falls short. Quite simply, I don't appreciate or need the efforts of adaptions.
Others disagree, obviously. To quote (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064840/) a movie from a book that I do enjoy:

"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like". ;)

Huinesoron

03-07-2019, 09:32 AM

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them, In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. (https://twitter.com/LOTRonPrime/status/1103656820130775050)

https://i.imgur.com/XrtVIVJ.png

Welcome to the Second Age (https://www.amazon.com/adlp/lotronprime)

Okay, now can I get excited? ^_^

The use of the 'star' map of Numenor confirms that Amazon have the rights to more than just the old LotR+Hobbit deal, because that map and description only appears in Unfinished Tales. That doesn't necessarily mean they're going full Fall of Numenor (or even, since Ost-in-Edhil appears on this version of the map, full Fall of Eregion), but it means they apparently can do some of that sort of thing.

So anyway: aaaaaaaaaaaa.

As Inziladun rightly says, whatever they come up with won't match up to Tolkien's own writings, and there's every chance they'll come up drastically short (though the fact that they correctly added the forests of Eriador to the Second Age map, and filled in the East Bight, says they're paying at least some attention), but still, "for those who like that sort of thing..."

aaaaaaaaaaa

hS

Zigûr

03-07-2019, 10:07 AM

Odd that the Iron Hills aren't named on any of the maps despite the Dwarf-road being identified as ending at them. If they didn't have an Elvish name for it (not that I think "Khand" is an Elvish name, and we know that "Umbar" definitely isn't, coincidences aside) shouldn't Khazad-dûm be called Hadhodrond?

I notice Harad and Khand have each grown a couple of extra mountain ranges and rivers, presumably so Rhûn doesn't feel like the odd one out.

Huinesoron

03-07-2019, 10:23 AM

Odd that the Iron Hills aren't named on any of the maps despite the Dwarf-road being identified as ending at them.

Is there a Sindarin name for the Iron Hills? It'd be pretty easy to concoct one, but so far they've stuck to canon names, and all of them (I think) in Sindarin.

I notice Harad and Khand have each grown a couple of extra mountain ranges and rivers, presumably so Rhûn doesn't feel like the odd one out.

[Snerk] ;) At least they've faded the Harad ones out! I still think the Rhun mountains have some evidence behind them (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19298), though I'm positive the new ones don't.

hS

William Cloud Hicklin

03-07-2019, 12:31 PM

The only time-frame I can think of which would have Numenor AND Minas Anor + Ithil would be if they are doing the Fall of N - Exile -Last Alliance. Which wouldn't actually be a bad story to tell.

It seems to me that they have now released TWO maps: one representing the Second Age pre-Downfall, and the other the post-Downfall late SA, i.e. the Last Alliance period. So I'm thinking Ar-Pharazon to Isildur as the storyline.

William Cloud Hicklin

03-07-2019, 06:53 PM

Aha! There are no fewer than FIVE maps! One of them is just geographic features with no names at all, and two (identical) just the names of the geographic features with no political nomenclature, but there are 2 more representing 2 different epochs:

Map 1 reflects the situation before the First War of the Rings: Ost-in-Edhil and Eregion are present, along with Khazad-dum. Numenor is there of course with its three principal cities, and a region in Harad (but not a city) is marked as Umbar

Map 2 however is either the earlier Third Age, or the very late Second after the Downfall: now we have all the key sites of the Kingdoms in Exile under their earlier names: Minas Anor, Minas Ithil, Osgiliath, Orthanc, Fornost, Annuminas, Amon Sul. Umbar is now a city. Numenor of course is gone.
Interestingly, so also is "Khazad-Dum"- it's now "Moria," which can't work. Khazad-dum only fell to the Balrog and was abandoned to become "Moria" in TA 1981- but the last vestige of Arnor had been destroyed in 1974. Possibly the cartographer takes the position that Elves called the place Moria beginning with the destruction of Hollin.

Galadriel55

03-07-2019, 08:42 PM

I don't know if I want to see a Last Alliance story. That is actually an important piece in ME history character- and theme-wise, and I feel attached enough to it to be very sorry to see it done all wrong.

However, if they go all Game of Thrones on the Numenorian rulers, I could totally buy that. If there was ever a GOT in Tolkien, it's in Numenor. Also, I have very little knowledge and attachment to that era, so a lot of things would be forgiven on my part. I would give a Numenor series a go.

Huinesoron

03-08-2019, 07:27 AM

Interestingly!, while it doesn't say anything about the show as a whole, it's pretty clear that they got a total geek to make the maps. I've noticed that the pre- and post-Downfall maps were not only both hand-drawn, but completely hand-drawn; check out the label for 'Nenuial' for proof that they redid all the labels. That's not the easiest approach to take, and says that somebody cared about these maps they were making.

The other proof that they cared is in all the details the added to the Second Age map, a map which Tolkien never drew. It's not only the forests - the whole coastline has changed. All along the coast of Lindon and what will one day be Gondor, the coast extends a little further out, and there are hills and forests that would be washed away in the Downfall.

They also filled in the East Bight in Mirkwood, of course - but look to the south of it. That's what we call the Brown Lands, but back in the Second Age it was the home of the Entwives. I'm not sure I agree with depicting it as a tree-filled valley, as they seem to have done - but the fact that they put it in says a fair bit. As does the de-deltification of Anduin and the expansion of Tolfalas.

Possibly the cartographer takes the position that Elves called the place Moria beginning with the destruction of Hollin.

Well, Celebrimbor wrote 'Moria' on their doors... ;) Also, given that the usual Sindarin name for the dwarves, 'naugrim', literally means 'stunted ones', it's not hard to imagine them using 'Moria' when not talking to dwarves. "Oh, yeah, the shorties from the Black Pit - um, sorry, I mean the Longbeards of the Mansion of the Dwarves..."

hS

Zigûr

03-08-2019, 08:46 AM

Well, Celebrimbor wrote 'Moria' on their doors... ;) Also, given that the usual Sindarin name for the dwarves, 'naugrim', literally means 'stunted ones', it's not hard to imagine them using 'Moria' when not talking to dwarves. "Oh, yeah, the shorties from the Black Pit - um, sorry, I mean the Longbeards of the Mansion of the Dwarves..."
An oversight akin to Balin's sarcophagus naming him in Dalish/Northern Mannish as "Balin" son of "Fundin" rather than the Khuzdul translations of "Balin" and "Fundin", perhaps.

I was thinking that the use of "naugrim" seemed out of kilter too. Surely at least the Gwaith-i-Mírdain would have referred to them as the Casari, but I suppose in Sindarin allowances must be made.

William Cloud Hicklin

03-08-2019, 09:52 AM

An oversight akin to Balin's sarcophagus naming him in Dalish/Northern Mannish as "Balin" son of "Fundin" rather than the Khuzdul translations of "Balin" and "Fundin", perhaps.

Or reproducing the Book of Mazarbul as tengwar and angerthas transliterations of English.

I was thinking that the use of "naugrim" seemed out of kilter too. Surely at least the Gwaith-i-Mírdain would have referred to them as the Casari, but I suppose in Sindarin allowances must be made.

Hadhod(rim) was the polite word, a phonetic Sindarization of Khazad. cf. Hadhodrond, "vault of the Khazad." Casari/Cassarondo was Quenya, not used in everyday speech even by the Noldorin Gwaith.

Zigûr

03-08-2019, 09:58 AM

Hadhod(rim) was the polite word, a phonetic Sindarization of Khazad. cf. Hadhodrond, "vault of the Khazad." Casari/Cassarondo was Quenya, not used in everyday speech even by the Noldorin Gwaith.
Yes I know (I was worried that I would have to qualify that I knew that Casari was Quenya) but it still seems odd to me that Elves would persist in, effectively, calling them "stunties" in an official capacity regarding place names and so forth.

William Cloud Hicklin

03-08-2019, 04:41 PM

Yes I know (I was worried that I would have to qualify that I knew that Casari was Quenya) but it still seems odd to me that Elves would persist in, effectively, calling them "stunties" in an official capacity regarding place names and so forth.

Well, in terms of place names all I can think of are two from the First Age (Nogrod and Bar-en-Nibin-noeg), with neither of which the Elves were on especially good terms. I reckon the folk of Hollin were more polite (ergo Hadhodrim)

William Cloud Hicklin

03-09-2019, 12:26 PM

Returning to Balin's tomb: actually, it fails in a couple of respects (as T himself later acknowledged): first, the primary inscription, like the BoM, is in English, rendered in phonetic cirth (the Khuzdul is at the bottom). The second problem is that, while we know that the Dwarves don't use their secret Khuzdul names even on their tombs, Balin/Fundin aren't their actual "outer names," but translations of their Dalish names into Norse equivalents.

Of course, in reality we know that T didn't develop his fiction of translation until a decade later.

Huinesoron

03-10-2019, 03:43 AM

Of course, in reality we know that T didn't develop his fiction of translation until a decade later.

I assume you mean the idea that the various names + Rohirric were translated into Norse/Old English/rural English (for Hobbits)? I've never been sure when that notion first appeared - when are you dating it to?

The idea that the books were translated from old texts is a separate idea; I don't know how far that one goes, either, but Tolkien's 1937 Hobbit cover mentions it in the runic inscription ('... a years journey by Bilbo Baggins of Hobbiton compiled from his memoirs by J.R.R. Tolkien').

Or do you mean that the latter concept postdates the use of Norse names in the early Hobbit drafts by a decade? I haven't got a very concrete notion of the Hobbit writing timeline, so that could make sense.

(All complicated by the fact that The Hobbit was pretty clearly written as a derivative work feeding off the Silmarillion, and only adopted into its timeline when LotR was begun...)

hS

William Cloud Hicklin

03-10-2019, 10:57 AM

I assume you mean the idea that the various names + Rohirric were translated into Norse/Old English/rural English (for Hobbits)? I've never been sure when that notion first appeared - when are you dating it to?

The idea that the books were translated from old texts is a separate idea; I don't know how far that one goes, either, but Tolkien's 1937 Hobbit cover mentions it in the runic inscription ('... a years journey by Bilbo Baggins of Hobbiton compiled from his memoirs by J.R.R. Tolkien').

Or do you mean that the latter concept postdates the use of Norse names in the early Hobbit drafts by a decade? I haven't got a very concrete notion of the Hobbit writing timeline, so that could make sense.

(All complicated by the fact that The Hobbit was pretty clearly written as a derivative work feeding off the Silmarillion, and only adopted into its timeline when LotR was begun...)

hS

Tolkien had been 'borrowing' from real-world languages beginning with The Hobbit and its pilfering of Dwarf-names from Voluspa. But it wasn't until he wrote Appendix F (which actually began as part of the Prologue) much later, after the main LR narrative was completed, where he laid out the entire "fiction of translation" - Tolkien, in his guise of editor of the Red Book, not only translated Common Speech into English, but went farther and "translated" related tongues like Rohirric and Dalish into languages related to English. This was of course a ret-con.

Rhun charioteer

03-11-2019, 04:14 PM

If they want a GOT political intrigue story-at least partially, the downfall of Numenor would be one of the best periods and places to do it.

You could have conflict between the king's men and the faithful, and of course Sauron-who they could get some attractive really handsome actor to play. Because second age Sauron pre downfall is supposed to be "fair" in essence really good looking and visually appealing.

You could have plenty of CGI laden vistas with numenorian ships traveling the world,

It's got potential, I remain curious how successfully or not they will pull it off.

As for the maps-they added a lot of detail for Rhun but not Harad. Strange.

The Sixth Wizard

07-13-2020, 10:26 AM

An oversight akin to Balin's sarcophagus naming him in Dalish/Northern Mannish as "Balin" son of "Fundin" rather than the Khuzdul translations of "Balin" and "Fundin", perhaps.

Tolkien says that the dwarves didn't even inscribe their true names on their tombs. It's at the end of section 1 in Appendix F of LOTR.

Interesting map, by the way. I didn't realise that Numenor was so far south. It makes sense now why Umbar was so important, and why the survivors sailed up the Anduin river if this map is accurate.

It's got potential, I remain curious how successfully or not they will pull it off.

The main obstacle in my eyes is that there is no source dialogue to draw from, which will affect the tone of the writing dramatically. No screenwriter could hope to match the gravitas of an Oxford linguistics professor writing in multiple invented languages in the 1930s. The reason that LOTR worked so well in film was that there were 1000+ pages to draw from, hardly any really dramatic lines had to be written.

Inziladun

07-13-2020, 12:37 PM

The main obstacle in my eyes is that there is no source dialogue to draw from, which will affect the tone of the writing dramatically. No screenwriter could hope to match the gravitas of an Oxford linguistics professor writing in multiple invented languages in the 1930s. The reason that LOTR worked so well in film was that there were 1000+ pages to draw from, hardly any really dramatic lines had to be written.

Which hearkens back to what I see as the main issue with the whole endeavour: if the writers aren't using Tolkien for inspiration, what will they draw from? I have to assume the worst in that GoT and other recent successful shows will be models. That idea does not impress me in the least.

Boromir88

07-13-2020, 03:02 PM

Which hearkens back to what I see as the main issue with the whole endeavour: if the writers aren't using Tolkien for inspiration, what will they draw from? I have to assume the worst in that GoT and other recent successful shows will be models. That idea does not impress me in the least.

I'm keeping my expectations very low. I'm willing to give it a chance early on, just because I think it's a good thing to have some new blood in adapting the world. Jackson/Walsh/Boyens had sort of taken over the fandom with their own vision and I will give the series a chance just to see something different from the Jackson/Walsh/Boyens monopoly. ;)

Morthoron

07-15-2020, 06:18 AM

At the present rate, the characters will all be interacting remotely via Zoom.

Inziladun

07-15-2020, 07:14 AM

At the present rate, the characters will all be interacting remotely via Zoom.

They missed a golden opportunity to dub their sessions Mt. Zoom. ;)

Boromir88

07-15-2020, 12:32 PM

Actually, recently they were given the green light to resume since New Zealand had a legitimate response in handling a pandemic from the get go:

https://www.looper.com/223679/amazing-news-just-dropped-for-amazons-lord-of-the-rings-series/

Zigûr

07-15-2020, 03:47 PM

Tolkien says that the dwarves didn't even inscribe their true names on their tombs. It's at the end of section 1 in Appendix F of LOTR.
Ah, that was not my intended meaning when I wrote that (over a year ago, mind you!); I wasn't talking about his true name. "Balin" was his outer name in Northern Mannish; the sarcophagus should, I thought, have borne the Khuzdul translation of "Balin" (which, I believe, would still have been his outer name). I believe Professor Tolkien was aware of this but decided to leave it as-is, as noted in "Of Dwarves and Men".

But having looked into it, now I have my doubts. Am I being too clever for myself, and Professor Tolkien actually meant he should have rendered the Northern Mannish in its actual form rather than in Old Norse, and the Khuzdul form was the true name?

e.g. As I understand it "Balin" might mean something like "Burning" in Old Norse (i.e. Mannish) — was his true name the Khuzdul for "Burning", or was it something entirely different? I keep re-editing this post because I'm worried I'm not making my point...

Anyway it's not on topic for this thread.

The success or failure of the Amazon series will derive, I suspect, on how well they are able to market it (whether or not it's true to the source material in tone and language, which it almost certainly won't be).

mindil

07-16-2020, 05:34 AM

...Professor Tolkien actually meant he should have rendered the Northern Mannish in its actual form rather than in Old Norse, and the Khuzdul form was the true name?

That's what I always assumed.

e.g. As I understand it "Balin" might mean something like "Burning" in Old Norse (i.e. Mannish) — was his true name the Khuzdul for "Burning", or was it something entirely different?.

I assumed the Khuzdul name was something else entirely. I figured the Mannish nicknames were just that, nicknames - like Shorty, Lefty, Bluebeard, and yet were put on tombs.

Zigûr

07-16-2020, 06:08 AM

I assumed the Khuzdul name was something else entirely. I figured the Mannish nicknames were just that, nicknames - like Shorty, Lefty, Bluebeard, and yet were put on tombs.
Exactly, me too.

Morthoron

07-16-2020, 08:02 AM

I assumed the Khuzdul name was something else entirely. I figured the Mannish nicknames were just that, nicknames - like Shorty, Lefty, Bluebeard, and yet were put on tombs.

Hence, Bashful, Doc, Grumpy, Happy, Sleepy, Sneezy and Dopey.

William Cloud Hicklin

07-16-2020, 05:41 PM

And the English of course should have been actual Westron.

Rhun charioteer

08-02-2020, 01:19 AM

So I've heard Sauron and Galadriel will be major players which makes sense given its the SA.

Anyway, I'm curious as to what aspects of the S.A., they'll emphasize whether the wars of Eregion or Numenor.

William Cloud Hicklin

08-03-2020, 11:27 AM

Morthoron

08-04-2020, 08:44 AM

Over the course of several seasons, they could do both.

It will be interesting to see how far afield they go with the story lines. Literally, far afield.

Kuruharan

08-05-2020, 09:42 AM

It will be interesting to see how far afield they go with the story lines. Literally, far afield.

Khandian Nights: Tales of Debauchery anyone?

Snowdog

08-05-2020, 05:11 PM

Khandian Nights: Tales of Debauchery anyone?

Amazon already contacted me and the other collaborative writers of our RP fanfic story called Caravan to Khand wanting to use it as a storyline for season four....
:Merisu: ;) :D

Kuruharan

08-06-2020, 07:13 AM

Amazon already contacted me and the other collaborative writers of our RP fanfic story called Caravan to Khand wanting to use it as a storyline for season four....
:Merisu: ;) :D

Funnily enough I would actually be happier about watching something set in a far off corner of Middle earth because at least that would not impact any established characters or cultures. I'm not looking forward to watching Galadriel go all Cersei Lannister on us.

William Cloud Hicklin

08-06-2020, 12:22 PM

Oh, c'mon. Real Housewives of Armenelos? Keeping Up with the Curufinians? The possibilities are endless.

Boromir88

08-31-2020, 10:22 AM

Some more news. I might be wrong to see these as rather encouraging. I did not know though that the Tolkien Estate had some stricter boundaries in place when it comes to the material Amazon will use:

https://www.cbr.com/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-need-know/

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/pa7yz7/tolkiens-estate-has-brutally-strict-rules-about-amazons-lord-of-the-rings-series

Pitchwife

08-31-2020, 03:26 PM

They got Tom Shippey working on this? There's still hope...

Boromir88

09-01-2020, 12:54 PM

They got Tom Shippey working on this? There's still hope...

Indeed. It appears hes representing the Tolkien Estate to make sure Amazon follows the copyright agreement, which is more strict than I realized.

They're limited to strictly Second Age material and if it's an event that Tolkien wrote about they can't alter the canon. They'll still have to invent a lot of characters and names to fill in gaps in the timeline. But I'm now expecting something closer to the LOTR movies adaptation and not The Hobbit.

The LOTR movies had a bunch of problems of course, but I've always felt on the surface, it was Lord of the Rings. There was little to no depth, scratch the surface and it wasn't Lord of the Rings anymore, it was PJ's "interpretation." The Hobbit movies were straight up fanfic that I didn't recognize any of them belonged in "Middle-earth."

So it appears they won't be able to do something like smush together several hundred years of history, like in The Hobbit where they have the Azog surviving the Battle of Azanulbizar and being at the Battle of Five Armies. Which thankfully means, I don't think there could be any Legolas appearances, or you know something like Haldir showing up in Numenor with a company of Elves (since Legolas and Haldir are Third Age material). :rolleyes:

Morthoron

09-01-2020, 01:07 PM

So it appears they won't be able to do something like smush together several hundred years of history, like in The Hobbit where they have the Azog surviving the Battle of Azanulbizar and being at the Battle of Five Armies. Which thankfully means, I don't think there could be any Legolas appearances, or you know something like Haldir showing up in Numenor with a company of Elves (since Legolas and Haldir are Third Age material). :rolleyes:

Excellent news about Shippey. I wonder if they are going to bring in Frank Herbert's son when they once again import sandworms from Arrakis into Middle-earth.

Kuruharan

09-09-2020, 03:15 PM

Which thankfully means, I don't think there could be any Legolas appearances, or you know something like Haldir showing up in Numenor with a company of Elves (since Legolas and Haldir are Third Age material). :rolleyes:

Since they are elves, it could be argued that they might have been alive in the Second Age...

William Cloud Hicklin

09-09-2020, 06:23 PM

They got Tom Shippey working on this? There's still hope...

Not any more, apparently: REPORT: Amazon's Lord of the Rings Parts Ways With Tolkien Scholar Tom Shippey (https://www.cbr.com/report-tom-shippey-out-at-amazon-lord-of-the-rings/)

Kuruharan

09-10-2020, 04:12 PM

Not any more, apparently: REPORT: Amazon's Lord of the Rings Parts Ways With Tolkien Scholar Tom Shippey (https://www.cbr.com/report-tom-shippey-out-at-amazon-lord-of-the-rings/)

I'm so glad I didn't let news of his participation get my hopes up.

It can be assumed that he objected to the inclusion of all the bordellos.

Inziladun

09-10-2020, 04:57 PM

It can be assumed that he objected to the inclusion of all the bordellos.

Or the plan to invent an evil Elf queen and call her the Mother of Balrogs? ;)

Morthoron

09-11-2020, 01:40 PM

Not any more, apparently: REPORT: Amazon's Lord of the Rings Parts Ways With Tolkien Scholar Tom Shippey (https://www.cbr.com/report-tom-shippey-out-at-amazon-lord-of-the-rings/)

The headline should read: Shippey Skips The Sinking Ship

Boromir88

09-11-2020, 03:34 PM

Well drat. (The news about Shippey leaving the project.)

Since they are elves, it could be argued that they might have been alive in the Second Age...

Well, actually my reading of the copyright is it's much stricter than that.

Yes, they could make the argument, they're Elves and therefor 'could' be alive in the 2nd Age. But my understanding is since Legolas and Haldir don't appear in the canon of the 2nd Age material at all, so they can't be added in. Elrond and Galadriel do are specifically mentioned to be involved in the 2nd age events, but not Legolas.

Although, they can invent new characters. I don't think there would be any stopping to just cast Orlando Bloom as "Les-galad" the son of Gil-galad. :rolleyes:

Inziladun

09-11-2020, 04:12 PM

Although, they can invent new characters. I don't think there would be any stopping to just cast Orlando Bloom as "Les-galad" the son of Gil-galad. :rolleyes:

My understanding is that they can do pretty much anything that doesn't contradict the established canon. There's quite a bit of leeway there for GoT envy to play.

mhagain

09-12-2020, 05:17 AM

My understanding is that they can do pretty much anything that doesn't contradict the established canon. There's quite a bit of leeway there for GoT envy to play.

Yes, I believe that's fairly explicitly specified.

I don't know about this next bit, but I would assume that "can do anything" is defined in such a way that "if we catch you doing anything like what happened with the Hobbit movies, even if it doesn't contradict canon, we're pulling the plug" is something that can be done.

William Cloud Hicklin

12-31-2020, 09:31 AM

This is looking worse and worse and worse. Now we hear of JJ Abrams' (indirect) involvement, doubtless advising the completely inexperienced showrunners...

And then there's the casting call for extras "comfortable with nudity," together with the hiring of an "intimacy coordinator."

This will be to Jackson's movies what Caligula was to I, Claudius.

https://www.theonering.net/torwp/2020/10/06/108573-sex-sensibility-amazons-nude-take-on-tolkien/

https://www.theonering.net/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/nudity.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM4x__ZzeOg

Kuruharan

12-31-2020, 10:19 AM

In his own words to his publisher he expressed the desire for his overall Legendarium to be presented as “‘high’, purged of the gross.” That’s from his famous Letter 131.

As suspected, this is probably going to be more of "gross, purged of the high."

Inziladun

12-31-2020, 06:30 PM

As suspected, this is probably going to be more of "gross, purged of the high."

GoT laid down the tracks already. Why bother doing something that doesn't play to the baser instincts? :rolleyes:

William Cloud Hicklin

01-01-2021, 12:27 AM

No money in it.

Inziladun

01-01-2021, 06:38 PM

What's sad is really not so much that Amazon could feel the need to sexualize something Tolkien-based, but that they're likely right that a large portion of potential viewers may both expect and desire that.

I've so often felt I was born in the wrong time....:(

Kuruharan

01-01-2021, 09:50 PM

I've so often felt I was born in the wrong time....:(

Isn't that at least a little bit of a requirement for being a Tolkien fan?

You know...one might have hoped that the ignominious and universally reviled way in which Game of Thrones ended might have put the kibosh on further larks of this nature.

Yes, I realize too much money had already been sunk into the venture.

Zigûr

01-02-2021, 06:36 AM

Maybe it's only going to be used in some way evocative of the decadence of Númenor in the days of its fall? :confused:

No, I guess the producers (perhaps accurately) believe that, these days, because of GoT, in the minds of the general public, fantasy fiction = nudity. Regardless of any other content.

This is going to make Peter Jackson's often broad approach look restrained I suspect.

William Cloud Hicklin

01-02-2021, 04:00 PM

as suspected, this is probably going to be more of "gross, purged of the high."

rotflmao!

Kuruharan

01-03-2021, 09:58 AM

Maybe it's only going to be used in some way evocative of the decadence of Númenor in the days of its fall? :confused:

That will probably be their excuse.

Of course, they probably feel they can also run wild with the other Men in Middle-earth who had more of Sauron's influence.

William Cloud Hicklin

01-03-2021, 12:20 PM

Maybe it's only going to be used in some way evocative of the decadence of Númenor in the days of its fall? :confused:

If this series ever gets to the last days of Númenor and the end of the Second Age, it certainly won't be in Season 1, which is what they're filming now.

Kuruharan

01-06-2021, 10:20 PM

...Season 1, which is what they're filming now.

The Merry Wives of Gil-Galad..?

Huinesoron

01-13-2021, 03:01 AM

TORn has provided what they describe as the official synopsis (https://www.theonering.net/torwp/2021/01/12/110065-exclusive-official-show-synopsis-for-amazons-lord-of-the-rings-series/), though it doesn't really meet that definition to my mind:

Amazon Studios’ forthcoming series brings to screens for the very first time the heroic legends of the fabled Second Age of Middle-earth’s history. This epic drama is set thousands of years before the events of J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, and will take viewers back to an era in which great powers were forged, kingdoms rose to glory and fell to ruin, unlikely heroes were tested, hope hung by the finest of threads, and the greatest villain that ever flowed from Tolkien’s pen threatened to cover all the world in darkness. Beginning in a time of relative peace, the series follows an ensemble cast of characters, both familiar and new, as they confront the long-feared re-emergence of evil to Middle-earth. From the darkest depths of the Misty Mountains, to the majestic forests of the elf-capital of Lindon, to the breathtaking island kingdom of Númenor, to the furthest reaches of the map, these kingdoms and characters will carve out legacies that live on long after they are gone.

The things that jump out at me:

-"they confront the long-feared re-emergence of evil to Middle-earth." I take this to mean that the show definitely starts before the forging of the Rings, with everyone's pal Annatar.

-"Kingdoms rose to glory and fell to ruin." Which kingdoms are we going to see rise and fall? Not Lindon and Numenor - they were already risen very early in the Second Age. I would laugh if it's referring to Sauron's kingdom - hey, it's accurate! - but my guess is they're planning to show the founding of Ost-in-Edhil.

-"Unlikely heroes were tested". Um... who? The only possibility I can come up with is Isildur (based on his early characterisation as a doubter), but he can't be Season One, surely? Another option could be Elrond... I guess... if you re-characterised him a lot.

-"hope hung by the finest of threads". Not... in the mid-Second Age it didn't. Hope for the Eldar, maybe, but even if Sauron had taken Lindon and claimed the Three, Numenor and Mirkwood wouldn't have seen any change.

-"an ensemble cast of characters, both familiar and new". Does this mean 'original and canon characters' (we knew that), or does it mean 'Third Age characters and purely Second Age ones'? If the latter, it implies that Galadriel and Elrond will be playing substantial roles, since they're the only characters familiar to movie fans who are really around in the 2A.

-"From the darkest depths of the Misty Mountains..." Khazad-Dum confirmed!

-"...to the majestic forests of the elf-capital of Lindon..." Now that's a weird artistic choice. If you're trying to highlight that this isn't the Third Age, why would you set Lindon in a forest, like Lorien? Oh... unless you just think 'elves = trees'.

-"...to the breathtaking island kingdom of Númenor..." We knew that. ;)

-"...to the furthest reaches of the map." That's got to be Umbar, right? The only other option is those mountains in the east (Tolkien's mountains which shouldn't exist (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19298)), which would imply... evil dwarves, maybe?

Overall, this is basically what you'd write if you were told nothing but "It's the Second Age". Still no actual information.

hS

Boromir88

02-26-2021, 05:41 AM

I'm not sure what we're all worried about, it's not like the AUJ didn't have nudity. At least if you count the Extended Edition of it. You can catch a long distance shot of some CGI dwarf butts for about 5 seconds as they publicly bathe in Rivendell, in front of the disapproving Lindir. Can you believe that prude?

Anyway, it's a low standard to pass, any nudity that's not CGI naked dwarves bathing will be a positive for the series.

Inziladun

02-26-2021, 07:02 AM

Anyway, it's a low standard to pass, any nudity that's not CGI naked dwarves bathing will be a positive for the series.

If the Hobbit films plus GoT are the examples they're looking at, this is going to be a large pile of worm-filth worthy of Glaurung himself. :rolleyes:

Thinlómien

04-17-2021, 04:45 AM

Liberal European at loose here but... I wouldn't worry about nudity per se. Maybe we're in Númenor and we see Uinen (or Ossë) and they are depicted in the classical tradition of naked merfolk. Yes, I'm sure we'd all like something more imaginative, but it could be something as simple as that. Or maybe they're going to show some ghastly rite in Sauron's temple with a human sacrifice who happenes to be... naked. There are plenty of reasons to show unclothed bodies and not all of them are gratuitous.

That being said, it is of course entirely possible and maybe even probable we will have "unnecessary" sex scenes. Personally I don't mind those if there is a reason from the storytelling point of view. If we're going to delve deeper into the lives and relationships of Second Age characters, sex would likely be an important part of some people's relationships with each other. Just saying. (Not to mention that there's a big difference between "implied sex scene with brief nudity" and a long and explicit scene that would likely feel very un-Tolkieny...)

But I agree that I would loathe to see the Game of Thrones style sex scenes just for the sake of sex scenes, like that godwaful scene with Petyr Baelish monologuing about his past while two prostitutes have sex in the background. Possibly worst writing/ direction ever. Not to mention that I certainly do not want to see any depictions of sexual violence, especially not ones framed in a titillating way. That's just repulsive, and should not be put in a Tolkien adaptation.

That being said, I'm very curious about the show, and while I don't really want it, I'm looking forward to coming the 'Downs to dissect it every week with my fellow wights when it starts airing. :D

Inziladun

04-17-2021, 05:24 AM

I'm very curious about the show, and while I don't really want it, I'm looking forward to coming the 'Downs to dissect it every week with my fellow wights when it starts airing. :D

Lommy! Mae govannen! :)

I really don't have much interest in the show, myself. I have serious doubts that watching it would do anything to enrich my appreciation of the books, and to me, that's what it's all about.

They certainly are going all-out (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/amazons-lord-of-the-rings-cost-465-million-one-season) with spending money on it, but bitter experience tells me that's by no means a marker of a good product.

Kuruharan

04-17-2021, 05:31 PM

like that godwaful scene with Petyr Baelish monologuing about his past while two prostitutes have sex in the background. Possibly worst writing/ direction ever.

That was in the golden days of season one.

In my opinion it got substantially worse from there.

Of course, I could be justly accused of not knowing what I'm talking about since I gave up on that show in Season Two...but I've heard. ;)

Galadriel55

04-17-2021, 06:01 PM

Of course, I could be justly accused of not knowing what I'm talking about since I gave up on that show in Season Two...but I've heard. ;)

I think it actually got better, in that sense. I feel like in the latter seasons the sex scenes were more, um, significant to the storyline? I suppose the consequence of having too much story for your time and budget is that you cut out the unnecessary porn. While waiting for the final season, I rewatched some of season 1 and was surprised at how much sex there was that served no purpose other than to make you uncomfortable. They definitely weaned the sex scenes towards the end.

And actually, I think I mainly won't mind giving this show a try at least. What would bug me most is if people will insist that it's "based on Tolkien", when it can't even be said to be Tolkien-inspired without a stretch. The favourite argument, it's all in the "appendices". The unfinished part of Unfinished Tales, you know.

Pitchwife

04-17-2021, 06:04 PM

You know...one might have hoped that the ignominious and universally reviled way in which Game of Thrones ended might have put the kibosh on further larks of this nature.
Speaking as someone who watched all of GoT, most of it sympathetically, and was very much disappointed by the ending, nudity had nothing to do with said disappointment.

We all come into the world naked and leave it naked, so what's the fuss? As long as it's well written anything goes. (Not that I'm getting my hopes up too high on that account.) Maybe we'll even get treated to some Annatar/Celebrimbor slash?:eek: [/channeling Ivriniel]

Or maybe the series is just going to delve into the married lives of Aldarion & Erendis, or Pharazon & Miriel, which may well involve some casual nudity, nothing worth getting our knickers in a twist.

Boromir88

04-17-2021, 06:15 PM

And actually, I think I mainly won't mind giving this show a try at least. What would bug me most is if people will insist that it's "based on Tolkien", when it can't even be said to be Tolkien-inspired without a stretch. The favourite argument, it's all in the "appendices". The unfinished part of Unfinished Tales, you know.

Oh I can't wait for all the self-titled "experts" (on both sides) to come out of the woodwork either for or against the series.

Of course, as has been mentioned by several others, I was expecting a temporary surge in activity from The Hobbit films and that just never happened. In my opinion, it never happened because The Hobbit films just weren't that entertaining. The Lord of the Rings films you got a marmite reaction to that a lot of people either really loved or really hated them. And I will defend the LOTR movies from the naysayers to this day. :p

The amount of money going into the series doesn't indicate to me if it will be good or not, but I do feel like the creators are taking their time with it, which is a bigger indicator. The Hobbit had a director change part way through and then the studio wouldn't give an extension on the release date, which made definitely Desolation of Smaug and The Battle of Five Armies rushed. You can just tell even in the editing process, they rushed it and didn't take the same time and care as they did with the LOTR trilogy.

Kuruharan

04-17-2021, 10:38 PM

I think it actually got better, in that sense. I feel like in the latter seasons the sex scenes were more, um, significant to the storyline? I suppose the consequence of having too much story for your time and budget is that you cut out the unnecessary porn. While waiting for the final season, I rewatched some of season 1 and was surprised at how much sex there was that served no purpose other than to make you uncomfortable. They definitely weaned the sex scenes towards the end.

I think there are two points to be made about this.

The first is that there seems to have been an expectation that, it being HBO, they had to have nudity and casual sex in the show to establish the audience.

The second is that I fear that same expectation will be in place for the Amazon show (even though that is not HBO) because the trope now seems to have been codified, and reinforced by The Witcher that fantasy TV shows must come with nudity and casual sex as a de rigueur part of the offering.

Speaking as someone who watched all of GoT, most of it sympathetically, and was very much disappointed by the ending, nudity had nothing to do with said disappointment.

Well, I have to admit, one of the things that kind of turned me off from wanting to watch the show into Season Three was I did not want to watch the Theon torture porn that I knew was coming. After that, as it became more and more obvious reading the various online analysis, that the show writers were drifting further and further from the source material I had very little motivation to go back. I also became steadily more irritated as the show staggered toward its end at the level of ineptitude and military incompetence they put into the show that in a way I was delighted it collapsed into such a widely ridiculed dumpster fire in the end.

Although, I also feel quite vindicated because I called Dany's ultimate storyline trajectory years ago. :cool:

EDIT: Also there was the factor of the show ultimately running out of source material, and there seems wide consensus that the show got worse after that point.

Maybe we'll even get treated to some Annatar/Celebrimbor slash?:eek: [/channeling Ivriniel]

At the very least, I would assume.

And I will defend the LOTR movies from the naysayers to this day. :p

Once more into the breach!!

William Cloud Hicklin

04-20-2021, 06:17 PM

The amount of money going into the series doesn't indicate to me if it will be good or not, but I do feel like the creators are taking their time with it, which is a bigger

That was just COVID.

Andsigil

05-26-2021, 10:39 AM

This video made me even more pessimistic about Amazon's series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSU9waCPMX4

Kuruharan

05-26-2021, 11:44 AM

This video made me even more pessimistic about Amazon's series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSU9waCPMX4

I don't know that any information there should make us feel any worse about how the series will turn out. I think it just provides more confirmation of what we already knew.

What is dismaying, however, is that by comparison PJ, who savaged Tolkien's works with reckless abandon, is now being held up as the epitome of honoring Tolkien.

What a sick world we live in.

Zigûr

05-26-2021, 03:33 PM

If the show does "fail" by some measurable standard, which I actually think it will, it will be because of over-investment, poor marketing, a lack of interest among the viewing public and the over-saturation of streaming service options.

Personally even if it weren't for the fact that I don't want to watch some dubious reinterpretation of Professor Tolkien's writings, I certainly have no intention of subscribing to a streaming service owned by Amazon, one of the most evil and exploitative corporations in the world today.

William Cloud Hicklin

05-26-2021, 06:44 PM

I think beyond any of those, it will fail due to clueless showrunners and hack writers. It will be, to borrow from Douglas Adams, something almost, but not entirely, unlike Tolkien.

Galadriel55

05-26-2021, 08:12 PM

Zigûr

05-26-2021, 09:40 PM

I think beyond any of those, it will fail due to clueless showrunners and hack writers. It will be, to borrow from Douglas Adams, something almost, but not entirely, unlike Tolkien.
I can't imagine how it will possibly work in an artistic sense, admittedly, but I'm sure (as it always does with these things) it will initially be touted as the best thing ever made and then the pendulum will swing the other way and it will become the worst ever. Or maybe it will trip straight out of the gate. I suppose only time will tell.

Inziladun

05-27-2021, 04:34 AM

I can't imagine how it will possibly work in an artistic sense, admittedly, but I'm sure (as it always does with these things) it will initially be touted as the best thing ever made and then the pendulum will swing the other way and it will become the worst ever. Or maybe it will trip straight out of the gate. I suppose only time will tell.

If it's wildly successful, I fear it will be due to a disconnection with what I consider the "spirit" of Tolkien's works.

What I get from these books I can find nowhere in contemporary culture, and with the current rush to dump everything older than ten years for the ideal of "progress", I am not at all hopeful the show would have anything for me to appreciate.

Legate of Amon Lanc

05-27-2021, 10:51 AM

Personally, I was going to watch the series (subscribe to a streaming service? Not if I can avoid it) - ignoring the Tolkien connection and just seeing what they come up with. Once it's out, I'm happy to give it a try on behalf of the lot of us Downers and then bring back report. Though, if anyone is expecting Tolkien, I rather fear they might be disappointed.

My question is, how can anyone expect Tolkien from anything besides the books themselves? Okay, perhaps I am being hypocritical here - I myself find Tolkien in some paintings (but one could argue that those are static and only offer an illustration to the text itself, and only to a certain moment) and I found it in a card game (well, that had illustrations - so the same as above - and flavour text from the books) and tabletop roleplaying games (where the chief component is one's imagination).

But a film - or a series - has the problem that it offers a "whole package" and does not leave anything to imagination. Even if it somehow managed to be 100% faithful to Tolkien in spirit (to be fair, I would be happy with, say, 60%; or more than 50%, which is something that gets close to what PJ managed - but already that does not qualify as Tolkien, in my book. And yes, I know I am very strict about this), so, even if it succeeded, it would be visually and in terms of atmosphere probably completely different from what I perceive to be "Tolkien". And if by some miracle myself and the director have the same vision, then fifty other people won't.

I am always reminded of this quote from On Fairy-Stories:
Should the story say “he ate bread,” the dramatic producer or painter can only show ”a piece of bread” according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own. If a story says “he climbed a hill and saw a river in the valley below,” the illustrator may catch, or nearly catch, his own vision of such a scene; but every hearer of the words will have his own picture.

So, no, I am certainly never expecting Tolkien and absolutely not "my" Tolkien. It will, at best, be a decent adaptation - or in this case, a decent "fanfiction". Likely I will perceive it about as close to Tolkien as I would a handheld console game from thirty years ago composed of four brown pixels that are supposed to be Orcs. (That hypothetical game could actually be more satisfying to me as it would leave more to imagination.)

I can't imagine how it will possibly work in an artistic sense, admittedly, but I'm sure (as it always does with these things) it will initially be touted as the best thing ever made and then the pendulum will swing the other way and it will become the worst ever. Or maybe it will trip straight out of the gate. I suppose only time will tell.

Very interesting. My approach is usually the other way around: I am repulsed (and usually do not desire to watch it in the first place), then I may grudgingly admit that it has some good points. Eventually I may grow to accept that it is not that bad, and even though it is not Tolkien, it deserves recognition for the work put into it and for the parts where the creators clearly tried. (That, if I have to spell it out, was literally how I felt about PJ's films.)

Kuruharan

05-28-2021, 08:12 AM

My question is, how can anyone expect Tolkien from anything besides the books themselves?

But this is being sold as offering something of the sort. The consumer bases their choices on the statements of the marketing.

What we are pointing out here is that Amazon is engaging in what might be referred to as terminologial inexactitude motivated by greed for gain.

Legate of Amon Lanc

05-28-2021, 10:44 AM

But this is being sold as offering something of the sort. The consumer bases their choices on the statements of the marketing.

What we are pointing out here is that Amazon is engaging in what might be referred to as terminologial inexactitude motivated by greed for gain.

Just the same thing that PJ did, as far as I am concerned - or that the makers of all these LotR video games are doing, for that matter.

But, at the same time, I assume that an average, not-as-geeky-as-us person will understand Amazon's advertising as "something like PJ's LotR" (very broadly speaking), and that is, while it will not make *me* consider it "Tolkien" any more, acceptable in terms of what it is doing - as much as PJ's films were acceptable. (And, to be fair, they were.)

So, it will likely be a matter of how acceptable it is. If it is roughly similar to PJ, maybe worse in some ways, but also maybe better in some ways, then it still fits the generic category of "commercial adaptations of LotR for wide public".

Would I wish that they were done more faithfully? Sure. But like I said, even that has a limit (you are never going to make Bree or Boromir look 100% the way I imagine them to look).

Is it motivated by greed? I sadly assume that it is, because what in this rotten world of commerce, that Amazon is a prime example of, is not? But then one hopes that there are at least some individuals present who do it out of love for Tolkien (and note that I am intentionally saying love and not enthusiasm; enthusiasm can spawn a ton of fanfictions that can however be as far from Tolkien as Batman versus Predator).

Kuruharan

05-28-2021, 03:58 PM

Just the same thing that PJ did, as far as I am concerned - or that the makers of all these LotR video games are doing, for that matter.

My intense hatred of his...actions (I will not dignify them with the word "effort") in this regard are a matter of copious public record...parasites trying to stand on the shoulders of a giant because their own meager offerings are so inadequate.

But then one hopes that there are at least some individuals present who do it out of love for Tolkien

It is a matter of public record that those people have been deliberately run off.

Boromir88

05-30-2021, 06:51 AM

I go back and forth all the time about the Amazon series, currently I'm at a "maybe I'll watch the series a few years later if people I know and respect say it's great and worth it. And if they say it's a flop then maybe I'll watch it 10 years later." :rolleyes:

My problem with the trend in Hollywood and Amazon, Disney...etc is it's just laziness and uninspired. There's nothing wrong with trying to create stories that are relatable to different audiences, or has a positive message you want to get out...but Melkor have mercy, CREATE YOUR OWN.

Changing races, genders, adding in love interests to a story when there isn't one will inevitably be a cheaper, lazier product. In my opinion it just tells me right off the start "Hey, I can't write an inspiring, good asian/latino/gay/female character, so I'm going to use a large brand like Tolkien to sell it."

Legate of Amon Lanc

05-30-2021, 10:38 AM

Changing races, genders, adding in love interests to a story when there isn't one will inevitably be a cheaper, lazier product. In my opinion it just tells me right off the start "Hey, I can't write an inspiring, good asian/latino/gay/female character, so I'm going to use a large brand like Tolkien to sell it."

I agree with what you said in general but... in this particular case, this specific thing you named isn't probably going to be a problem. Because exactly, if this is going to be taking place somewhere in the Second Age, then you don't know anything about the people's races, genders and love interests (apart from that if there is, say, Númenorean king who has a known wife, obviously he should be married to her; but aside from such a case anything goes).

This whole thing will be about inventing new characters besides some five known Isildurs and co. But Isildur's second-in-command, Isildur's best childhood friend, the person who bullied Isildur at school, Isildur's kind teacher who secretly let him study Elvish... all these are open to create. And yes, the only question is whether the creators will make these INTERESTING, and not just random and un-Tolkien-y straw figurines. That's their only job.