Tidbits of Curiosity

[Huinesoron]

Nienor and Tar-Miriel survived.

The text only states that Nienor jumped into Teiglin, not that it killed her. Likewise, the text only says that Tar-Miriel was swallowed by the waves, not that it killed her. And as we know, Ulmo has a penchant for saving good people when it is in his power to do so. He saved Voronwe from the shipwreck, after all.

And in both of those cases, he had the power to do so. He saved them both, enabling them to start new lives somewhere else.

Pity that Turin chose not to jump into the river himself. If he had, he would have been saved too.

I think I can drag myself back awake for this.

Nienor? I'm dubious. Ulmo didn't have a lot of power over rivers. It also kind of ruins the downer ending - which, I get that's what you're going for, but Tolkien went pretty hard into it.

But, assume it's true... where would she go? Ulmo has a habit of rescuing people to help their kin - look at Elwing, but also Voronwe. We know that Nienor didn't go anywhere near Hurin or Morwen, so what would she do?

Well... she's the closest thing to a Lord of the House of Hador still in existence, bar her parents. The Hadorians are still seriously oppressed; in the aftermath of Turin's visit and Aerin's death, we're told things got even worse. We're also told that when Hurin visited Dor-Lomin after his release, he found none of his kin there.

We're also told that, according to Gondorian theory, the Northmen (== Rohirrim) were descended from Hadorians who refused the call to Numenor. Fitting these together, could Nienor have pulled a Moses, and led (a portion of) the enslaved remnants of her people away to the East? The idea of 'not the land, but the people' being important seems to fit pretty well with her character, and while we know that Ulmo believes 'the last hope of the Noldor lieth in the West', he may have different views of the Edain.

As for Tar-Miriel, her rescue seems a lot more likely: there's not such an obvious downer ending to the Akallabeth (most of the Good Guys get away, after all!), and she is explicitly swallowed by the Sea.

Perhaps, rather than a bird (a la Elwing), Ulmo would have transformed her into some other creature: a dolphin or something. And then... what? It's impossible to believe she wouldn't have found her way back to the Faithful if she'd gone to Middle-earth, and the idea of her being stolen away to Ulmo's palace or something isn't very Tolkien. So... Valinor?

There's a couple of options for what the Queen of Numenor could get up to in the Undying Lands. Firstly, if Amandil made it there, she could just sort of hang out with him. She'd live out her life in peace, as a sort of reward for her hardship - kind of like Frodo. But nothing too momentous.

Alternately... she's the Queen of Numenor. And there just so happens to be an entire army of Numenorean soldiers sleeping in the former Pass of Light, waiting for the End of Days. Do we really think the Valar would trust Pharazon the Usurper to lead them against Morgoth? Nah; they'd love to have a decent, Iluvatar-fearing ruler for their weird undead mortal army. I can just see them putting Tar-Miriel to sleep at their head, clad in the finest jewelled armour Aule can make. When they wake up, Pharazon can be cabin-boy for his cousin, Tar-Miriel the Gleaming, as she sails to war against the Enemy of the World.

And yes, they can meet up with Turin and plan the battle together. :D "Eonwe? Tulkas? I suppose they have their uses, but this is going to take skill..."

hS

[Urwen]

I think I can drag myself back awake for this.

Nienor? I'm dubious. Ulmo didn't have a lot of power over rivers. It also kind of ruins the downer ending - which, I get that's what you're going for, but Tolkien went pretty hard into it.

But, assume it's true... where would she go? Ulmo has a habit of rescuing people to help their kin - look at Elwing, but also Voronwe. We know that Nienor didn't go anywhere near Hurin or Morwen, so what would she do?

Well... she's the closest thing to a Lord of the House of Hador still in existence, bar her parents. The Hadorians are still seriously oppressed; in the aftermath of Turin's visit and Aerin's death, we're told things got even worse. We're also told that when Hurin visited Dor-Lomin after his release, he found none of his kin there.

We're also told that, according to Gondorian theory, the Northmen (== Rohirrim) were descended from Hadorians who refused the call to Numenor. Fitting these together, could Nienor have pulled a Moses, and led (a portion of) the enslaved remnants of her people away to the East? The idea of 'not the land, but the people' being important seems to fit pretty well with her character, and while we know that Ulmo believes 'the last hope of the Noldor lieth in the West', he may have different views of the Edain.

As for Tar-Miriel, her rescue seems a lot more likely: there's not such an obvious downer ending to the Akallabeth (most of the Good Guys get away, after all!), and she is explicitly swallowed by the Sea.

Perhaps, rather than a bird (a la Elwing), Ulmo would have transformed her into some other creature: a dolphin or something. And then... what? It's impossible to believe she wouldn't have found her way back to the Faithful if she'd gone to Middle-earth, and the idea of her being stolen away to Ulmo's palace or something isn't very Tolkien. So... Valinor?

There's a couple of options for what the Queen of Numenor could get up to in the Undying Lands. Firstly, if Amandil made it there, she could just sort of hang out with him. She'd live out her life in peace, as a sort of reward for her hardship - kind of like Frodo. But nothing too momentous.

Alternately... she's the Queen of Numenor. And there just so happens to be an entire army of Numenorean soldiers sleeping in the former Pass of Light, waiting for the End of Days. Do we really think the Valar would trust Pharazon the Usurper to lead them against Morgoth? Nah; they'd love to have a decent, Iluvatar-fearing ruler for their weird undead mortal army. I can just see them putting Tar-Miriel to sleep at their head, clad in the finest jewelled armour Aule can make. When they wake up, Pharazon can be cabin-boy for his cousin, Tar-Miriel the Gleaming, as she sails to war against the Enemy of the World.

And yes, they can meet up with Turin and plan the battle together. :D "Eonwe? Tulkas? I suppose they have their uses, but this is going to take skill..."

hS

I like your analysis and your idea. Turin and Tar-Miriel, Slayers of Morgoth, Saviors of the World.

That one must be written out.

[Urwen]

Oh, and....what of Hurin? Like Tar-Miriel, he too was taken by the sea.....

And it is writ (https://archiveofourown.org/works/18649171/chapters/44492302)

[Urwen]

Lo, I got inspired by your blog to make my own (https://leithriel.webs.com/apps/blog/)

[Urwen]

Another song that fits with Golodhrim and Maeglin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JJ-RSyhLpo)

[Huinesoron]

Oh, and....what of Hurin? Like Tar-Miriel, he too was taken by the sea.....

Hurin... well, unlike Elwing, he doesn't fit entirely into the 'innocent victim' mode. He was captured while fighting, and when he was released he (accidentally) revealed Gondolin, (deliberately) gave Thingol a cursed horde, and (totally deliberately) brought civil war to Brethil. I think that takes him outside the 'Ulmo's tragic innocents' archetype (which would include Tar-Miriel, and arguably Nienor as well), so I don't know that he would be saved.

And if he was... what would Ulmo do with him? He has nothing to go back to - he's already passed through Dor-Lomin and left it again. He can't go to Eressea like Frodo would - the way, so to speak, is shut.

Hurin, like his daughter, killed himself deliberately because he had nothing left to live for. Elwing and Miriel, in contrast, died because of the actions of others.

Now, if you'd said Amroth and Nimrodel, you might have a case... she does end up having a river named for her, after all.

hS

[Urwen]

Hurin... well, unlike Elwing, he doesn't fit entirely into the 'innocent victim' mode. He was captured while fighting, and when he was released he (accidentally) revealed Gondolin, (deliberately) gave Thingol a cursed horde, and (totally deliberately) brought civil war to Brethil. I think that takes him outside the 'Ulmo's tragic innocents' archetype (which would include Tar-Miriel, and arguably Nienor as well), so I don't know that he would be saved.

And if he was... what would Ulmo do with him? He has nothing to go back to - he's already passed through Dor-Lomin and left it again. He can't go to Eressea like Frodo would - the way, so to speak, is shut.

Hurin, like his daughter, killed himself deliberately because he had nothing left to live for. Elwing and Miriel, in contrast, died because of the actions of others.

Now, if you'd said Amroth and Nimrodel, you might have a case... she does end up having a river named for her, after all.

hS


Except that they're all victims.

[Huinesoron]

Except that they're all victims.

Yes; but so is everyone. That's what the Marring of Arda is. But Hurin actively threw himself into his fate, by battle and then by his actions after his release. Elwing was just living her life, and Tar-Miriel was forced into hers. Neither of them played an active role in bringing about their own misery.

Does that mean Hurin should have done differently? Certainly not in the Nirnaeth! But it does mean he chose to accept the potential consequences of his actions, whereas Elwing and Tar-Miriel didn't have that choice.

We're building a house of cards on a single example here (since I don't think Voronwe can be included - he was saved because Ulmo needed a messenger), but I think 'Ulmo saves those who had no way to avoid their fate' is a decent theory. (It's also what Earendil's embassy was based on: it's not the Exile Noldor he pleads for mostly, it's the Elves and Men who had no part in the Fall, but still suffer its consequences.)

hS

[Urwen]

Yes; but so is everyone. That's what the Marring of Arda is. But Hurin actively threw himself into his fate, by battle and then by his actions after his release. Elwing was just living her life, and Tar-Miriel was forced into hers. Neither of them played an active role in bringing about their own misery.

Does that mean Hurin should have done differently? Certainly not in the Nirnaeth! But it does mean he chose to accept the potential consequences of his actions, whereas Elwing and Tar-Miriel didn't have that choice.

We're building a house of cards on a single example here (since I don't think Voronwe can be included - he was saved because Ulmo needed a messenger), but I think 'Ulmo saves those who had no way to avoid their fate' is a decent theory. (It's also what Earendil's embassy was based on: it's not the Exile Noldor he pleads for mostly, it's the Elves and Men who had no part in the Fall, but still suffer its consequences.)

hS


If that is true, then the House of Hurin is on top of that least, for none of them had any way to avoid their fate; because, as you said, Morgoth holds power over all of Arda, and there is no escape from it. Only one member of that House of Hurin did escape his power: the youngest one.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

If that is true, then the House of Hurin is on top of that least, for none of them had any way to avoid their fate; because, as you said, Morgoth holds power over all of Arda, and there is no escape from it. Only one member of that House of Hurin did escape his power: the youngest one.


All of them escaped it, and in the same way: by dying.

[Urwen]

All of them escaped it, and in the same way: by dying.


But not before their lives were thoroughly ruined by an evil God.

[Urwen]

I just read a story, and it got me thinking: how much of the history we read is actually the truth, and how much is the case of 'history is written by the winners'? Were Maeglin and other demonized people (Beruthiel, Ulfang and co. etc.) truly evil, or were they presented as such by those who wrote their history?

(I left Pharazon out because I hate him)

[Pervinca Took]

Beruthiel's husband sounded like a nasty piece of work.

[Galadriel55]

I just read a story, and it got me thinking: how much of the history we read is actually the truth, and how much is the case of 'history is written by the winners'? Were Maeglin and other demonized people (Beruthiel, Ulfang and co. etc.) truly evil, or were they presented as such by those who wrote their history?

(I left Pharazon out because I hate him)

I think it depends on what story of how the story got to us you are following.

If you go by the "Tolkien translated the Red Book" hypothesis, then yes, history is written by the winners (or rather, it's written by the hobbits, who have heard the versions of the winners).

But if you take it as the story in its true version (though still with individual characters and POVs having their own perceptions and biases, where applicable), which was in some retelling of it used as the basis for the Red Book translations, then it's the true story.

I prefer to think of it as the real deal. The issue with the first case scenario is if you start questioning the validity of the history, you gotta question all of it. To give an example with your favourites, you might say that Maeglin was painted as less sympathetic than he really was, but then you also have to accept that Tar-Miriel might have been less goody-good than she was portrayed, and maybe Hurin didn't actually stand up to Morgoth so steadfastly (cause who was there to witness it?), or maybe Nienor knew full well she was marrying her brother and did it anyways, but the people of Brethil would rather not admit to the fact that their favourite was a perv and covered up for her. If you start, where do you stop? Yes, it's possible, but I would rather not go that way. I would rather leave the beauty of the story intact the way it is than start doubting its bits and pieces.

Saying that, it doesn't mean the story itself doesn't have its own biases, as I said before. When we see into a character's POV, we know them better and we relate to them better, so sympathy is partially created that way regardless of what that character is or does. By sharing the thoughts and motives of one character but not the other in an exchange, the story automatically biases us towards the one we know better. You get this sometimes with Maeglin, who is seen in the context of other stories and only chimes in with an arrogant comment. So while the story is true, it might still not be perfectly well-rounded.


How's that for the resolution of your debate? Thoughts?

[Urwen]

I won't reply to that, because it seems like you want this thread to end. :p

[Urwen]

In defense of my favorites, there is a phrase known as 'choosing the lesser of two evils', which, as I believe applies to Tar-Miriel. I read the fanfiction where she and Pharazon did what they did in order to prevent the possibility of civil war, and I agree with that headcanon.

Beruthiel was abused by her husband, which is also someone else's headcanon that I accept. In fact, it was that headcanon which got me thinking about this stuff in the first place.

And Maeglin was tortured by the enemy and broke down, plain and simple. Same old, same old, maybe, but there was nothing insidious at work there. No unhealthy obsessions, no throwing children into furnaces. Alternatively, he might have been possessed by Melkor or Sauron and forced to do these things against his own will (another headcanon I agree with)

[Huinesoron]

Ooh, are we doing transmission theory? I love transmission theory!

Let's assume that the entire Middle-earth corpus is derived from the Red Book: that the First Age material comes entirely from Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish, and that the Second Age stuff is probably from Gondor (added either by Merry and Pippin, or by the Gondorians to the Thain's Book). The Translations are said to be from Rivendell's records, which presumably were previously records in Lindon, but how did they get into there?

-Ainulindale, Valaquenta, and pre-Elvish Quenta: Probably written in Lindon or Balar. Actual Valinoran writings are unlikely; those could have been brought over by Houses Fingolfin or Finarfin, but none of the refugees from various Beleriandic collapses had the opportunity to take their books with them to the Havens. The most religious city in Beleriand was Gondolin (which actually had a Place of the Gods), so probably recounted to scribes by surviving Valinorean Gondolindrim. Ultimately, they have to be from a Valinorian Elda, who was taught them by the Valar.

-Pre-Return Middle-earth: Most likely dictated by Cirdan, who was there for all of it. The very early Awakening of the Elves story is specifically said to be a children's story.

-The Eldar in Valinor, including the Fall of the Noldor: The Kinslaying being pretty unpleasant, I doubt this was written down early, but the accounts have the ring of authenticity - they were clearly based on first-hand accounts by House Feanor. My guess is that Galadriel was behind most of it (hence the odd little anecdote about Feanor and her hair), while either Maglor (to Elrond) or Celebrimbor (to Galadriel) added a Feanorean perspective. It would have been written in the Second Age, partly as an explanation for why the Valar were so disgruntled at the remaining Noldor. It's also said to be partly based on Rumil's writing in the Annals of Aman, which would probably have been a gift to Cirdan.

-General Beleriandic accounts: clearly compiled in the Havens/Balar, as the only place where the stories of Gondolin, Nargothrond, and Doriath would be generally known. Pengolod of Gondolin probably had a heavy hand in them: he wrote the Annals of Beleriand and edited the Annals of Aman, so we can imagine him finding the latter Annals on Balar and being inspired to write his own.

-Beren and Luthien: derives from the Lay of Leithian, by an unknown poet (I've hypothesised that it was Tinfang Gelion (https://huinesoron.webs.com/Netilardo/Deep10.htm)). He must have been directly told the story by Beren and Luthien themselves, after their Return (since Luthien's appeal to Mandos is part of the story), which places him firmly in Ossiriand. The poem would have travelled to Doriath (of course), but might not have been written down: the purpose of epic poems was to keep the stories alive in memory. I'm imagining Dior singing it to Elwing, and Elwing singing it to Elrond...

-The Children of Hurin: from the poet Dirhaval of the House of Hador, who wrote the Narn. But where did he get his information? Some of it was from the Doriathrim, and some no doubt from surviving Nargothrondrim, but so much of Turin's story was never known to them. The details of his time with the outlaws, the death of Beleg, his time in Brethil and his death: the best source for these is Brethil itself. Did Hurin learn the full tale when he passed through? I can see him telling his story to Melian before leaving to go jump off a cliff.

-The Fall of Gondolin: Idril. The view the story takes of Turgon could only come from his daughter; the surviving Lords of the City wouldn't be so critical. Tuor probably made some contributions (like the long, rambling bit before he gets to the city), but I think the meat of the story is Idril's: would Tuor really have given his wife all the credit? If not told to Earendil, it was probably at least told for his benefit - so yes, Maeglin really did try to throw him off a cliff and/or stab him, because the kid actually remembered that part. The general creepiness of Unc'a Lomion, however, is exaggerated by hindsight.

-The War of Wrath: written, or rather not written, by the Elves (possibly even Elrond himself). They didn't participate, which is why there's almost nothing recorded. No doubt there was a Numenorean account with loads of details, but it was lost in the Downfall.

-Numenor: we're told outright that Akallabeth was written by Elendil, which means it was written to justify his own rule. The usurpation of the Line of Kings, the emphasis on Ruling Queens (which puts Silmarien and the Andunie line in a very good light), and indeed, the assertion that the whole island is irrevocably lost: they're all brought up to make it clear that King Elendil of Gondor-and-Arnor is the only way forward. As for The Mariner's Wife... well, it's too complex a story to have been remembered, and I doubt Elendil's refugees brought their libraries with them. That means it was already in Middle-earth - which means it was either from the Belfalas Faithful... or from the Black Numenoreans of Umbar. ^_^ I'll leave it to you to decide whether the moral of the story is 'be more like elves' or 'elves suck'.

Ultimately, yeah: there's a lot of opportunity for biased narration. Not around the Fall of Gondolin, though: you'd have to cast Earendil as a liar for that to work, and I think the Valar would have something to say. But Hurin and Elendil are prime candidates for bending the truth.

hS

[Urwen]

-The Fall of Gondolin: Idril. The view the story takes of Turgon could only come from his daughter; the surviving Lords of the City wouldn't be so critical. Tuor probably made some contributions (like the long, rambling bit before he gets to the city), but I think the meat of the story is Idril's: would Tuor really have given his wife all the credit? If not told to Earendil, it was probably at least told for his benefit - so yes, Maeglin really did try to throw him off a cliff and/or stab him, because the kid actually remembered that part. The general creepiness of Unc'a Lomion, however, is exaggerated by hindsight.


Ultimately, yeah: there's a lot of opportunity for biased narration. Not around the Fall of Gondolin, though: you'd have to cast Earendil as a liar for that to work, and I think the Valar would have something to say. But Hurin and Elendil are prime candidates for bending the truth.



Or I can take a third option and say that Meglin was possessed, and hence the actions others saw him do weren't done by him, but Melkor/Sauron controlling his body. He, of course, wrestled the control from them near the end in order to save Earendil, and goad Tuor into slaying him as a form of atonement.

[Huinesoron]

Or I can take a third option and say that Meglin was possessed, and hence the actions others saw him do weren't done by him, but Melkor/Sauron controlling his body. He, of course, wrestled the control from them near the end in order to save Earendil, and goad Tuor into slaying him as a form of atonement.

Is that even a thing in Arda? I can think of multiple instances of people being kiiind of driven to things by evil power (Boromir and Frodo, for example), but it's clear that they're still responsible for their actions. And I can think of multiple 'evil impersonates people' instances - Eilinel and Amlach, say - but that's not possession either.

I can't think of any examples of an evil Power straight-up possessing someone; I might just be being tired, though?

hS

[Urwen]

Well, what if they did, just in this one case? After all, Morgoth was genuinely afraid that Earendil would contribute to his downfall (which he did). And right there was someone whose own desires just so happened to align with Morgoth's, making it even easier to possess him.

[Pervinca Took]

Is that even a thing in Arda? I can think of multiple instances of people being kiiind of driven to things by evil power (Boromir and Frodo, for example), but it's clear that they're still responsible for their actions. And I can think of multiple 'evil impersonates people' instances - Eilinel and Amlach, say - but that's not possession either.

I can't think of any examples of an evil Power straight-up possessing someone; I might just be being tired, though?

hS

I don't believe Frodo was responsible for his actions at the very end, when the Ring was at its point of maximum power. 'Impossible, I should say, for anyone to resist, especially after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted' - JRRT.

[Huinesoron]

I don't believe Frodo was responsible for his actions at the very end, when the Ring was at its point of maximum power. 'Impossible, I should say, for anyone to resist, especially after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted' - JRRT.

Fair; but resist what? I've always read that as Frodo succumbing to temptation, not compulsion. I suppose you could see that as a form of possession - but I don't think arguing 'it wasn't Maeglin's fault, Morgoth just gave him an overwhelming temptation (to murder his cousin's son and kidnap her)' is going to win any points in Urwen's eyes... ;)

hS

[Galadriel55]

I won't reply to that, because it seems like you want this thread to end. :p

People don't usually end threads by asking for thoughts, but you read what you want to read.

What do you want, Urwen? You're upset when people don't post for a while, you're upset when people post. You quote your own questions to bump them up to get more responses, but out of the blue you decide to ignore some responses. Can we just have a voluntary discussion? Is that too much to ask?


Or I can take a third option and say that Meglin was possessed, and hence the actions others saw him do weren't done by him, but Melkor/Sauron controlling his body. He, of course, wrestled the control from them near the end in order to save Earendil, and goad Tuor into slaying him as a form of atonement.

But would that not imply Morgoth knew about what Earendil meant? Aside from the question of whether possession is possible, it has to have a purpose. If Morgoth had such control over Maeglin, why would he choose to deploy him this way? He could have sent him to kill Turgon, or to do more damage to the city defenses, or basically anything more useful than killing a 6-year-old.

The other thing is, if he really felt so horrible that he needed death as an atonement, why the need to goad Tuor? The cliff is right there. And goad Tuor how - by struggling to kill his wife and son? If we go into complete alternative histories of events (ie not just the motivations but the actions are different), what would be the goading action? Words?

I don't think this particular version makes it past Occam's razor, but maybe with some modifications it could work.

[Urwen]

People don't usually end threads by asking for thoughts, but you read what you want to read.

What do you want, Urwen? You're upset when people don't post for a while, you're upset when people post. You quote your own questions to bump them up to get more responses, but out of the blue you decide to ignore some responses. Can we just have a voluntary discussion? Is that too much to ask?


I want to cure my boredom, is all.



But would that not imply Morgoth knew about what Earendil meant? Aside from the question of whether possession is possible, it has to have a purpose. If Morgoth had such control over Maeglin, why would he choose to deploy him this way? He could have sent him to kill Turgon, or to do more damage to the city defenses, or basically anything more useful than killing a 6-year-old.

The other thing is, if he really felt so horrible that he needed death as an atonement, why the need to goad Tuor? The cliff is right there. And goad Tuor how - by struggling to kill his wife and son? If we go into complete alternative histories of events (ie not just the motivations but the actions are different), what would be the goading action? Words?

I don't think this particular version makes it past Occam's razor, but maybe with some modifications it could work.


Read my last post on the subject.

[Pervinca Took]

Fair; but resist what? I've always read that as Frodo succumbing to temptation, not compulsion. I suppose you could see that as a form of possession - but I don't think arguing 'it wasn't Maeglin's fault, Morgoth just gave him an overwhelming temptation (to murder his cousin's son and kidnap her)' is going to win any points in Urwen's eyes... ;)

hS

Same thing, by then. Compelling him to yield to temptation. We're talking very, very extreme pressure.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The Translations are said to be from Rivendell's records, which presumably were previously records in Lindon, but how did they get into there?

I've always gone with the head-canon that in the last days of Arthedain, the library of Fornost or copies thereof were sent to Rivendell for safekeeping. After all, Tolkien in his later period keeps telling us that the Silmarillion incorporated (garbled?) Mannish traditions- which wouldn't have been the case with material written in Lindon or by Elrond (or Glorfindel*)

Why would Bilbo have used these Arnorian materials ("from the Elvish" because written in Sindarin)? Probably because Elvish historiography was in a style relatively alien to mortal minds, written by and for conditional immortals with perfect recall. History written by Men would have been more comprehensible to a Hobbit.

___________________
*Another potential source for the Fall of Gondolin

[Urwen]

What are your opinions on Feanor?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

What are your opinions on Feanor?

A miniature version of Morgoth.

Not that Feanor became or even aspired to be a world-conquering Dark Lord, but rather that his fall was of the same flavor. Both were the greatest of their kind, possessed of the greatest gifts and unrivaled in their primacy- from which grew pride, and arrogance, and a belief that they were peers of an order greater than they (in Feanor's case, the Valar, in Morgoth's case, Eru Himself). As a side note, compare Varda's rejection of Melkor with Galadriel's rejection of Feanor.

[Urwen]

I believe that the one Melkor really loved was Nienna, not Varda. Just like the one Feanor really loved was Nerdanel, not Galadriel.

[Huinesoron]

I believe that the one Melkor really loved was Nienna, not Varda. Just like the one Feanor really loved was Nerdanel, not Galadriel.

I don't think Melkor loved anybody, except possibly himself. He tended to go after bright things: there's a reference somewhere to him pursuing Varda, and the early mythos has him assaulting Arien; then of course there's the Silmarils themselves. But Nienna? She's really not his type.

Did she love him? She certainly goes to bat for him at least once, but that's in her role as Mercy. Given how unrepentant Melkor is, it's hard to see how the Weeper could fall for him.

Feanor, like Melkor, loved the Light - but like Melkor, he didn't just want to enjoy it, he wanted to possess it. The Silmarils were an impressive achievement, but built on the backs of Yavanna's, Varda's, and Aule's work (the Trees, Light, and Earth). Not acknowledging God's contributions when you're talking about a distant, unprovable figure is one thing; jealously guarding your treasure from gods who are right there is a whole nother thing.

It's almost tempting to see Feanor as just socially inept - his interest in Galadriel's hair comes across as a bumbling scientist, not a creep - but then you remember the whole 'if you won't help us we'll steal your stuff and murder you for stopping us' thing and feel less inclined to sympathy.

hS

[Urwen]

Did she love him? She certainly goes to bat for him at least once, but that's in her role as Mercy. Given how unrepentant Melkor is, it's hard to see how the Weeper could fall for him.



Which brings me to the first (and only) real creep in the Silmarilion: Eol the Dark Elf, maker of Anglachel/Gurthang (which just so happened to end up in the hands of someone as dark and brooding as he himself was)

[Huinesoron]

About Morgoth and Nienna (https://archiveofourown.org/works/6061078)

It miiiight be polite to mention when you're linking to explicit smut.

Also: the fact that someone wrote fanfic of it doesn't make it true. I have a very long story asserting that Legolas went on a time-travelling adventure to throw pancakes in the face of most of Middle-earth, but that doesn't mean you should cite it as evidence of baked goods weaponry. From what I caught before closing it, that story doesn't even make a case: it just sort of throws them together.

Which is fine; it's fanfic, and moreover it's smut. But it's not an argument.

My own Nienna/Melkor story, for what it's worth, is over here (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/2078154/1/For-The-Old-Songs-Sake), and is perfectly safe to read. :) But also doesn't make a case out-of-universe.

hS

[Urwen]

I can so picture it.....


[SETTING: After Dagor Dagorath]

EOL
*sips tea*
Why, you're finally here. Wanna talk?

TURIN:
Talk about what?

EOL:
They hail you as a hero, don't you know? They sing praises to you, who drove your sword into Morgoth's black heart. Serves him right, that sucker, ha! And yet, they all overlook my contribution to the whole thing....

TURIN:
*frowns*
What are you talking about?

EOL:
I made your sword, you know? It was the finest piece of work I've ever created. There was another just like it. It's sibling, you know. Then it was taken from me by....someone I wish I could wipe out from my memory. Still, your contribution help me quell my bitterness about that....incident.

[enter Nellas, clearly displeased at the view]

NELLAS:
*frowns*
Stay away from my husband, spouse-killer

TURIN:
*stands up*
It's okay, it really is.

NELLAS:
No, it's not. He is only trying to corrupt you.

TURIN:
*wry grin*
Ah, the irony. In the past, it was me who corrupted others.

NELLAS:
That was Morgoth's influence.

TURIN:
If I had stayed with you, none of that would have happened, so some of the blame lies with me.
*suddenly notices that his sword is no longer there*

EOL:
It served its purpose in slaying Morgoth, so now I'm taking it back. Thank you.

TURIN:
Meh, I am better off without it. Shall we?

*Turin and Nellas wander off together, as the scene fades to black*

[Urwen]

Someone should totally write a fanfiction about Turin and Eol meeting one another.....

[Urwen]

I just read a story which nearly drove me to tears. What really gets me is the fact that he destroyed the best thing he ever had out of petty jealousy.....

[Urwen]

Do you believe that Feanor was a genius? And what are your thoughts on his exile?

[Urwen]

I wish I could talk about certain someone for all of eternity.

gurd tuohtiw a gurd ym si nilgeam rof

[Urwen]

I am curious about the song lyrics of these (https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/blindguardian/thedarkelf.html) two (https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/blindguardian/thorn.html) songs (links lead to song lyrics, not videos).

Some people claim that both songs are about Maeglin, while some say that the first one is about Anglachel and the second one is about Turin. What are your thoughts on this subject?

[Urwen]

I want to write a story inspired by these two songs and I want to know who the main character should be.

[Huinesoron]

I want to write a story inspired by these two songs and I want to know who the main character should be.

I think I've said before that I'm not all that into music questions, but since you asked nicely (elsewhere), and since I'm already vaguely familiar with the songs, okay...

-Is The Dark Elf one of the narrative/non-lyrical songs? The link you give only provides one line ("A dark seed of evil is grown"), which certainly sounds like those tracks (the most hilarious is 'Lammoth', which is just a 20 second scream). Anyway, the title certainly points at Eol, since it's his usual moniker.

-Thorn is said by Wikipedia to be about Maeglin in captivity, and I can't argue. Look at these lines:

Come follow me
And you will see
How it will be
When all the pain is gone away

I'm lost in the depths of his eyes
I can't flee
Inner pain caused insanity
It's deep within
The fear and the hunger
Enslaved and denied
By my love and my enemies
I'm the illgotten son

That latter quote is just a paraphrase of the idea that Morgoth put a shadow of fear in Maeglin's heart before he sent him back. It specifically doesn't work for Turin, because he was never caught by anyone's eyes (that was Nienor), and wasn't denied by either of his canonical loves (rather, he denied Finduilas).

Have you listened to the whole album? I admit to mostly liking Nightfall itself, but there's some good stuff on there.

hS

[Urwen]

Yes, I have listened to the whole album.

What got me thinking is this single lyric:

The dark seed of evil is sown/grown


The book says something similar about Maeglin.

What if there is a deeper meaning behind that?

It is stated in the book that Morgoth feared Turgon more than anything else? What if he took a more proactive role in bringing about his demise, using one of the Elves he stole from Cuivinen? He had one of his Orcs rape her, and she gave birth to Eol, who in turn, ensnared Aredhel, who gave birth to Maeglin. Why would he do this? Simple, to bring Maeglin into the world as his instrument against Turgon and his line.

That would also explain why he didn't torture him as badly as the other prisoners. Maeglin had been programmed to aid him from the get go. It was in his blood, and therefore he knew Maeglin wouldn't defy him as easily.

And when Maeglin was old enough, Morgoth instilled within him a desire to seek out Gondolin, just as Ulmo did with Tuor, as well as a desire to possess Idril, thus ensuring his path as the bringer of destruction for Gondolin, Turgon and Turgon's line.

Maeglin was literally programmed to betray Gondolin, and that's what 'the dark seed of evil' line (both in the song and the book) really means.

[Urwen]

Please share your thoughts on this.

[Andsigil]

It was in his blood, and therefore he knew Maeglin wouldn't defy him as easily.

So, you're saying genetics determines behavior?

That stance is going to earn you a bit of dislike from... certain groups.

[Urwen]

Sometimes it does, according to several sources. Plus, in case you didn't notice from my recent posts, I am not anti-Maeglin, I am pro-Maeglin.

[Galadriel55]

Sometimes it does, according to several sources. Plus, in case you didn't notice from my recent posts, I am not anti-Maeglin, I am pro-Maeglin.

But why do you think it's impossible to be pro-Maeglin without rewriting his story all the time? You keep trying to change his story to make excuses for him. Well, he did bad things, and it was his fault, and a made up excuse is not going to change that. Doesn't mean he's not an interesting character. By trying to explain away a character's shortcomings and blaming them on external sources you are actually making them a more boring character.


As for this specific theory, that implies Morgoth knew that Aredhel would be wandering about in that particular region of the world, and that Eol would have to know it too and marry her with the purpose of desteoying Gondolin... Not too complicated?

And dark seeds of evil. What's wrong with the more conventional interpretation of corrupted thought or spirit?

[Urwen]

Why do I keep doing it, you ask? Well, it is because I am pro-Maeglin, and hence I don't want him to die.

[Galadriel55]

Why do I keep doing it, you ask? Well, it is because I am pro-Maeglin, and hence I don't want him to die.

That's like being pro-gravity and not wanting things to fall. If you like the character the way he was written, why would you want to change the way he was written?

Also, spoiler, but he still dies.

So I still don't get it. *shrugs*

[Urwen]

I never said I like him the way he was written, because his canonical-self dies, and I am not okay with that. You're the ones who like him the way he is written. You're the ones who are happy that he died.

Then again, you do have a point. If he were different, the reasons I started liking him in the first place would be gone. (I like tragic villains, okay?)

However, his death is still something I feel shouldn't have happened. Two sides of me warring over this: one side of me knows it had to have been, while the other side rejects that idea.

[Galadriel55]

Then again, you do have a point. If he were different, the reasons I started liking him in the first place would be gone. (I like tragic villains, okay?)

Yeah, that's exactly my point (and I like tragic characters too, you're not the only one :)). The beauty of tragic heroes and anti-heroes is the tragedy. You want it to not happen that way, but you also like the story because it happens that way. The joy is in the pain?

But it's not just about the tragic ending. The latest alternative history you propose here still maintains Maeglin's death, it just takes away the tragedy and complexity behind it. It isn't anymore the story of an outsider whose lust lead him to terrible moral decisions, a story of passion and motivation. Instead it's a story of a machine doing its job. If Maeglin was pre-programmed to do everything he's done, as you propose, the tragic aspect - the willingness to send the whole world to hell to get what he desires. He's Terminator, he isn't a person, isn't a complex character.

[Urwen]

And yet, I still didn't want him to die, just as I didn't want Feanor, Maedhros, Aredhel, Turin, Nienor, Tar-Miriel or Urwen to die.

[Galadriel55]

And yet, I still didn't want him to die, just as I didn't want Feanor, Maedhros, Aredhel, Turin, Nienor, Tar-Miriel or Urwen to die.

And isn't it great? Some of these characters did terrible things, and yet we still love them and don't want them to die! Doesn't that speak to the depth of these characters and the quality of the story?

[Urwen]

And isn't it great? Some of these characters did terrible things, and yet we still love them and don't want them to die! Doesn't that speak to the depth of these characters and the quality of the story?


Yes, but you forgot one little detail: they still died even though we didn't want them to die.

[Urwen]

So I recently stumbled upon a site which has a lot of alternative names for characters. Some I have unearthed:

Maeglin - Morleg, Glirhuin
Eol - Eor, Alvar
Aredhel: Rodwen
Earendil: Gaerdil, Aradamir, Horvendill, Orentil
Saeros: Orgof
Tuor: Eladar
Gwindor: Galweg
Turin: Gormagli

[Urwen]

I just had a thought: Aredhel was the original 'Ar-Something' title user, and the Ar- kings of Numenor were emulating her and things relating to her. Think about it:

1. She couldn't have died of old age, which is why they wanted immortality
2. She had a controlling husband, which is why the women of Numenor took a backseat in the days of Ar-kings (*leers at Phary*)
3. Said husband killed both her and himself, as Phary's actions caused the deaths of himself and his wife.
4. Her son was in love with his first cousin (*leers at Phary some more*)

You get the idea...

[Morsul the Dark]

I’m so excited this thread exists I was planning a similar one.

I’m going to piggyback and say I thoroughly wish we knew more about the dwarves at Bagend the night Bilbo left.

[Huinesoron]

I’m so excited this thread exists I was planning a similar one.

I’m going to piggyback and say I thoroughly wish we knew more about the dwarves at Bagend the night Bilbo left.

Well, we slightly do! Let's take a look at them:

An odd-looking waggon laden with odd-looking packages rolled into Hobbiton one evening and toiled up the Hill to Bag End. The startled hobbits peered out of lamplit doors to gape at it. It was driven by outlandish folk, singing strange songs: dwarves with long beards and deep hoods. A few of them remained at Bag End.

We know that Bilbo's walking-companions arrived in early September, so were hanging out at Bag-End for 1-2 weeks. We know they came from the Lonely Mountain, by way of Dale.

We can also conclude that they're old enough to have been alive at the time of the Battle of Five Armies, but they may not have fought in it. If they're under about 100, they would have been children during the Battle; and even if older, they may have been in the Blue Mountains, not the Iron Hills. See next point.

'And look at the outlandish folk that visit him: dwarves coming at night...'

This quote comes before the one above, and tells us that Bilbo had dwarves as guests often enough for Sandyman to notice. Given that the Shire doesn't exactly have trade with Erebor, those dwarves were probably mostly passing through on their way to and from the Blue Mountains. I think it's reasonable to guess that Bilbo's house-guests and walking-companions weren't people he'd just met that month: more plausibly, they were some of those traders and/or other migrants crossing the Shire.

More tentatively, that means they may have been from Thorin's faction of the Longbeards, not Dain's. The people most likely to make the long and dangerous journey to the Blue Mountains are the ones who used to live there, not the ones from the Iron Hills! That makes them either children during Thorin's quest, or dwarves who didn't go with him to Erebor.

'Nar, Anar, Hannar, are you ready? Right. Off we go.'

It's from the draft, but they have names! Furthermore, from their names, they're probably a set of brothers (see: Balin and Dwalin) or two brothers and a cousin (see: Dori, Nori, and Ori), or maybe a father and two sons (see: Groin, Oin, and Gloin). Definitely close relatives, at any rate.

Years afterwards Thrór, now old, poor, and desperate, gave to his son Thráin the one great treasure he still possessed, the last of the Seven Rings, and then he went away with one old companion only, called Nár.

Slightly speculatively: dwarven names often recur down the family tree (there are three Nains, for example). A lot of these could be just families using the names of kings, but there's no King Nar that we know of. Nar, companion of Bilbo, could be a descendent of Nar, companion of Thror. There's about 200 years between their appearances, and Thror's Nar was old; given that dwarves tend to have their children at age 100, we're looking at Bilbo's friends being his grandchildren or great-grandchildren. They may be old enough to have heard the tale of Thror's death in Moria first-hand; they would certainly have heard it from the elder Nar's children.

This would tie in nicely with the idea of them being Blue Mountain dwarves originally, who had moved to Erebor after the Battle of Five Armies.

Much more speculatively: Nar is not mentioned at the Battle of Azanulbizar, nor anyone related to him. Tolkien being Tolkien, if the family of the dwarf who witnessed Thror's death was present during the fight to avenge him, you'd expect a mention somewhere! So I can imagine Thrain taking his father's companion by the shoulder and saying 'You're not coming; you've done enough'. Whether he means 'by serving Thror to the last' or 'because you got him killed' is open to interpretation, but the upshot is that the later Nar, and his kinsmen Anar and Hannar, would have been left out of Thorin's expedition because their family has already Done Enough. (We know dwarves have long memories - they still have a grudge against the elves over Thingol!)

~

And that, I think, is all we know or can plausibly deduce. Tolkien Gateway claims that in the early drafts Nar is given "some dialogue and a bit more development", but I think this is wrong: they've carried it across from Lofar, the fourth dwarf who stayed back with Gandalf and has a line to himself ("Goodbye, Bingo; I am going with Gandalf"). He was dropped completely from the book, while the others just lost their names; but their only dialogue appears only ever to have been "Everything" in response to Bilbo asking if everything was ready.

(One cheeky final bit of speculation: the Blue Mountains were originally home to the dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, who mingled with Durin's folk after Beleriand fell. Those two cities were founded by the Firebeard and Broadbeam houses. At least two dwarves of Nogrod, Telchar and Naugladur, have seemingly Elvish use-names. "Nar" is the Quenya word for "fire", as "Anar" is Quenya for "Sun"... could they be ancient use-name adopted by the Firebeards who came in contact with the Quenya-fluent elves of Eregion, which werelater taken to be Northern names and matched with the similar Hannar? :D)

hS

[Urwen]

I just had a thought: Aredhel was the original 'Ar-Something' title user, and the Ar- kings of Numenor were emulating her and things relating to her. Think about it:

1. She couldn't have died of old age, which is why they wanted immortality
2. She had a controlling husband, which is why the women of Numenor took a backseat in the days of Ar-kings (*leers at Phary*)
3. Said husband killed both her and himself, as Phary's actions caused the deaths of himself and his wife.
4. Her son was in love with his first cousin (*leers at Phary some more*)

You get the idea...

No response to that? :sadface:

[Urwen]

In my native language, this guy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haman) is spelled like this (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Aman), which I find rather interesting...

[Galin]

Lots of names were recycled by Numenorian Men, which used to belong to Men and Elves alike (as Nerwen's recent riddle proved). Do Elves recycle their names though? I'm interested to see if there's an example.

I'm a bit late to this particular party but in my opinion, and generally speaking, Elves repeated names. Tolkien's late comment about the name Glorfindel has already been raised, but to repeat it here:

"At any rate what at first sight may seem the simplest solution must be abandoned: sc. that we have merely a reduplication of names, and that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were different persons. This repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would not be credible. No other major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name born by another Elvish person of importance."

JRRT, Glorfindel II, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

In the margin JRRT also wrote: "Why not?" which in my opinion seems to refer to the "credible" part, and is arguably answered by the next sentence (as Christopher Tolkien appears to think as well). In addition, a Tolkienian note (same text) about the name Galdor reads:

"Galdor also appeared in The Fall of Gondolin, but the name is of a more simple and usual form [than Glorfindel] and might be repeated."


And back to the credible statement for a moment, in my opinion -- if this is indeed Tolkien's answer to "why not" -- well, let's just say I might respond with something like: "Well, not yet! That is, you can make it so."

Cough. That is, if I met JRRT in real life and could actually speak in his presence. And if I jumped that hurdle, I still dared to annoy him with such a response (unlikely, I think).

;)

And this late comment raises the question of "importance" and "striking-ness" too, but in any case, we have other examples to possibly consider, some from JRRT's late writings.


Argon -- name often given by Sindar and Noldor in memory of Aracano's valour (The Shibboleth of Feanor)

Celebrimbor -- Sindarized form of Telerin Telperimpar -- said to be a frequent name among the Teleri (late writing, noted in Of Dwarves And Men, note 7).

Rúmil -- there are seemingly two Rúmils noted in The Lord of the Rings.

Gelmir -- there are seemingly two Gelmirs in Silmarillion writings.

Ambarussa -- (somewhat related here, though not exactly reflective of the point in general): Nerdanel gave her 6th and 7th child the same name: Ambarussa, though Feanor called one Ambarto desiring that they should be differently named.


Finarfin's Mother-name was Ingoldo, and Finarfin itself is a Sindarization of his name Arafinwe after being "prefixed" by the name Finwe -- that is, Finwe Arafinwe > Finarfin (see also Finwe Nolofinwe > Fingolfin)

Finrod's Mother-name was Ingoldo as well. And . . .

"Eärwen gave this name [Ingoldo] to her eldest child Artafindë (Finrod), and by it he was usually called by his brothers and sister who esteemed him and loved him. It was never Sindarized (the form would have been Angoloð). The name spread from his kin to many others who held him in honour, especially to Men (the Atani) of whom he was the greatest friend among the Eldar."

JRRT Shibboleth of Feanor

"Especially to Men" at least seems to include Elves too. In my opinion anyway :)

[Urwen]

Guess people no longer want to talk with me about things, not here at least. Oh well...back to creating individual topics...

[Galin]

In part I'm pouring my unpaid research into the web to see if it induces sleep!

Another example nobody prepared for:

It's interesting to me that a certain legend once included Morgoth knowing where Gondolin was before Maeglin was captured -- he'd heard of a Man [Tuor] wandering in the dales of the waters of Sirion, and he gathered spies, and not only orcs but snakes that could search "the deepest pits and the highest peaks", and wolves, dogs, great weasels -- thus including things that "could take scent moons old through running water"

Add owls and falcons!

"And all these came in multitudes" -- to seek this Man and search out the dwelling of the Noldoli that had escaped his thraldom."

Of course the context surrounding this -- including the thrall Noldoli and Morgoth's hold on the "Great Lands" (and other stuff) is very different here . . . but one does think of the Crebain!

Anyway, if I recall correctly -- and if not, please correct me (said me on the internet) -- in earlier versions of the Túrin saga, Húrin's release didn't reveal the location of Gondolin in any measure. And if so, the following from The Wanderings of Húrin is a newer conception:

"Yet there were ears that heard the words that Húrin spoke, and report of all came soon to the Dark Throne in the north; and Morgoth smiled, for he knew now clearly in what region Turgon dwelt, though because of the eagles no spy of his could yet come within sight of the land behind the Encircling Mountains. This was the first evil that the freedom of Húrin achieved."

JRRT, The Wanderings of Húrin, The War of the Jewels -- used in Of the Ruin of Doriath, The Silmarillion.

CJRT then reveals: "At this point in the draft manuscript my father wrote:

"Later when captured and Maeglin wished to buy his release with treachery, Morgoth must answer laughing, saying: Stale news will buy nothing. I know this already, I am not so easily blinded! So Maeglin was obliged to offer more -- to undermine resistance in Gondolin.' [a further note of almost exact wording adds] 'and to compass the death of Tuor and Earendil if he could. If he did he would be allowed to retain Idril (said Morgoth)."

Note 30 The Wanderings of Húrin

For clarity, I've no problem with Christopher Tolkien's decision to combine descriptions here for the 1977 Silmarillion . . .

. . . and for me, the combining the 1930 Qenta Noldorinwa (QN) and the Wanderings of Húrin (WH) leaves the impression that Húrin betrayed a general location, and Maeglin's betrayal was needed for the assault -- that is, Maeglin provided the "very" location (the word very was added by CJRT for The Silmarillion), and "the ways whereby it might be found and assailed" (from QN).

Christopher Tolkien (commentary The Fall of Gondolin, The Book of Lost Tales) even notes: "Thus in the Silmarillion Morgoth remained in ignorance until Maeglin's capture of the precise location of Gondolin, and Maeglin's information was of correspondingly greater value to him, as it was also of greater damage to the city."


CJRT also noted in the Foreword of WJ that so much of the last chapters of Quenta Silmarillion remained in the form of the Qenta Noldorinwa of 1930 (aside from meagre hints) -- in other words, they weren't updated in the 1950s for example, like earlier chapters had been, and:

"For this there can be no simple explanation, but it seems to me that an important element was the centrality that my father accorded to the story of Húrin and Morwen and their children, Túrin Turambar and Nienor Niniel. This became for him, I think, the dominant and absorbing story of the end of the Elder Days, in which complexity of motive and character, trapped in the mysterious workings of Morgoth's curse, sets it altogether apart. (...)"

He then notes the new dimension to the ruin that Húrin's release would bring: his catastrophic entry into the land of Haleth's people (WH). But could Húrin as the "principle betrayer" of the location of Gondolin be part of this too?



Again, in very early The Book of Lost Tales the information about Gondolin from Meglin concerns the fashion of the plain and city, of the host, and the hoard of weapons, and he tells that Melko's host could not hope to overthrow the walls and gates of Gondolin even if they availed to win into the plain. The idea that Maeglin's treachery would involve other factors beyond location would not be a wholly new departure, then, but rather more like the earlier notion (in general at least).

I also find Christopher Tolkien's choice of phrasing here interesting (the first is from commentary to WH, followed in the book by the text from QN -- the second from commentary to the Tale of Years):

"Thus the story in Q was changed (IV. 143)"

"510 The story that the site of Gondolin was revealed to Morgoth by Maeglin was later changed: see pp. 272-3 and note 30."

:awakes:



So you see (recently "so" seems to be a celebrated sentence starter)? A sleep-inducing info dump of sorts!

But this thread needed more Maeglin in my opinion. And maybe a morsel more alliteration too.

And so ;)

[Urwen]

That's great, but please talk about the more recent topics too. >.>

[Galin]

( . . . ) "Nar" is the Quenya word for "fire", as "Anar" is Quenya for "Sun"... could they be ancient use-name adopted by the Firebeards who came in contact with the Quenya-fluent elves of Eregion, which were later taken to be Northern names . . .

I think you meant Narbeards there ;)

That's great, but please talk about the more recent topics too.


Thanks for asking. Just to add, for myself, I'm never sure if I'm going to post anywhere about anything ever again . . . even moments after I post something! Or for example, what if I suddenly decide to take up piano at a late age (awesome Jason Statham reference from the film Spy).

If so, I might not have the time, even if I find something I'd like to comment on.

Gotta go at the moment anyway. There's an ice cream cone with my name on it!

:)

[Urwen]

Well, I found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI1mQdLE1bU

Evil? Terrible? I am sorry, but...haha.

[Urwen]

Hey, I got a lot of sympathy for the Hin - and for the parents, - and I am less inclined than Hui to blame them for the destruction they unwittingly brought about. Their story makes me sad, not angry. But specifically in Dor-lomin, Turin was indeed trying to impose his own philosophy on a system with a very fragile balance, and while there is no right answer in that plight (do you proudly die fighting as a people? Or live an abased life to allow your people to perhaps persevere and see another day at the end of it) - it is not a stranger's call to make on behalf of the people who are actually suffering the consequences of either of the options. He forced their hand in a way he didn't force anyone else's hand in his long line of unlucky tribulations.


Except he isn't a stranger. He is one of them. One of the old blood, that is.

[Galadriel55]

Except he isn't a stranger. He is one of them. One of the old blood, that is.

No, at that point he pretty much was. He did not share in their tribulations, he did not share in their life, he did not share in their suffering of the consequences of the choice he imposed upon them. He came, told them to basically self-destruct, and left. The reason he was able to do so is that he was still recognized as the rightful heir - and if he came to command his people that they needed to self-sacrifice for some good cause, it would be legitimate. But he uprooted their whole meager existence, the last hope they had for actually living as a people, because he found it demeaning. He did it thinking that he was helping his folk - but he did not bother to ask the actual folk what they wanted, and did not understand how they lived. Dor-lomin's occupation is, again, a situation where there is no right answer. But it was not Turin's place to make that call on behalf of people that were in essence no longer part of his life, and to whom he was a name on the horizon.

[Urwen]

He still shares their blood. Or are saying he doesn't anymore?

[Galadriel55]

He still shares their blood. Or are saying he doesn't anymore?

Their blood, not their life. *shrug*

[Urwen]

Besides, are you saying they want to live as thralls?

[Huinesoron]

Besides, are you saying they want to live as thralls?

We don't have to speculate - from Children of Hurin we have their own words:

Ill though my life was, you have brought death to me with your violence.

Turin sparked off a revolt that stood zero chance of freeing his country. He directly caused the death of the woman leading the people of Dor-lomin in his absence. He doesn't even seem to do it through a misguided effort to save them - he forces a confrontation out of pride, gets angry with Brodda for insulting his mother, and lashes out.

What did the people of Dor-lomin actually want? Let's ask Asgon this time:

Many a man of arms misreads patience and quiet. She did much good among us at much cost. Her heart was not faint, and patience will break at the last.

Sounds like he wanted support and hope, not anger and despair.

Helping Dor-lomin was actually within Turin's power. He could have remade the Outlaws and directed them against the Easterlings, making the land a danger for them, drawing on his learning as a leader of Nargothrond to forge the Hadorians into a secret army. That might have worked! Killing one man and then running away wouldn't.

EDIT: We see this same story play out with Thorin Oakenshield. "The King under the Mountain has returned! Oh - all he's actually done is provoke the monster threatening us, and now everything is on fire." Aragorn, meanwhile, returns to a kingdom whose enemy is already as provoked as he can get, comes with an army and a plan, and defers to the existing Gondorian leaders until pressured by Imrahil to claim his title.

hS

[Urwen]

The Outlaws were all dead at the time, so no, he couldn't have. At least not with the originals. Who could he have used, then?

[Huinesoron]

The Outlaws were all dead at the time, so no, he couldn't have. At least not with the originals. Who could he have used, then?

The Outlaws were an idea, not specific people - I doubt the Hadorians would have wanted the original gang of murderers and worse in their lands. But:

Now some of the hardiest that could endure the winter stayed with Turin and led him by strange paths to a refuge in the mountains, a cave known to outlaws and runagates; and some store of food was hidden there.

"Runagate" means someone who has run away - in this context, probably runaway slaves. There was an outlaw network in Dor-lomin. The people with Turin at this point are "all the rebels that had the strength"; I'm pretty sure they're literally just all the surviving slaves from Brodda's hall, there's no indication of an outside force of rebels. Which means this cave is known to slaves held by the ruler of the land - the one you'd expect to have the highest security! It seems like it was probably fairly widely known then, and peaceful, obedient thralls don't know where the runaway slaves and revolutionaries live.

It really sounds like they had a whole underground operating there - a massive operation smuggling Hadorians to the mountains, then either setting them up as outlaws or helping them across to Brethil. It might even have been led by Aerin; at least she knew about it. There was a whole network Turin could have tapped into and led, to at the least cause major problems for Brodda and his mob.

(The ultimate goal wouldn't be to free Dor-lomin; it's too close to Angband, and unprotected by the Eldar. The best outcome would be to drive the Easterlings out, and then evacuate the country to Brethil before the Orcs turned up.)

(Weirdly, Turin leaves Dor-lomin thinking of his three choices: to stay and help them, to find Finduilas, or to go after Morwen. He decides to leave Morwen in Doriath, finds Finduilas dead... and then just sort of forgets about Dor-lomin in favour of hanging out with the Haladin until Nienor shows up.)

hS

[Urwen]

The Outlaws were an idea, not specific people - I doubt the Hadorians would have wanted the original gang of murderers and worse in their lands. But:



"Runagate" means someone who has run away - in this context, probably runaway slaves. There was an outlaw network in Dor-lomin. The people with Turin at this point are "all the rebels that had the strength"; I'm pretty sure they're literally just all the surviving slaves from Brodda's hall, there's no indication of an outside force of rebels. Which means this cave is known to slaves held by the ruler of the land - the one you'd expect to have the highest security! It seems like it was probably fairly widely known then, and peaceful, obedient thralls don't know where the runaway slaves and revolutionaries live.

It really sounds like they had a whole underground operating there - a massive operation smuggling Hadorians to the mountains, then either setting them up as outlaws or helping them across to Brethil. It might even have been led by Aerin; at least she knew about it. There was a whole network Turin could have tapped into and led, to at the least cause major problems for Brodda and his mob.

(The ultimate goal wouldn't be to free Dor-lomin; it's too close to Angband, and unprotected by the Eldar. The best outcome would be to drive the Easterlings out, and then evacuate the country to Brethil before the Orcs turned up.)

(Weirdly, Turin leaves Dor-lomin thinking of his three choices: to stay and help them, to find Finduilas, or to go after Morwen. He decides to leave Morwen in Doriath, finds Finduilas dead... and then just sort of forgets about Dor-lomin in favour of hanging out with the Haladin until Nienor shows up.)

hS

True. I always wondered why he didn't bring the men of Brethil over to help...

However, it is possible to free Dor-Lomin, and the Beleriand as a whole too. All one needs is the element of surprise, and a champion whose destiny is to kill Morgoth himself. And guess who has both of those? People of Dor-Lomin do!

And I am now imagining a guerilla force ambushing Orcs and then retreating to safety, until their numbers are low enough that the remaining ones could be picked off. Then a small force infiltrates Angband and distracts the beasties still left there, while a slightly larger force, led by Turin, confronts Morgoth himself, and Turin stabs him dead. Throw in some Ents as back-up and Morgoth won't stand a chance.

[Huinesoron]

However, it is possible to free Dor-Lomin, and the Beleriand as a whole too. All one needs is the element of surprise, and a champion whose destiny is to kill Morgoth himself. And guess who has both of those? People of Dor-Lomin do!

And I am now imagining a guerilla force ambushing Orcs and then retreating to safety, until their numbers are low enough that the remaining ones could be picked off. Then a small force infiltrates Angband and distracts the beasties still left there, while a slightly larger force, led by Turin, confronts Morgoth himself, and Turin stabs him dead. Throw in some Ents as back-up and Morgoth won't stand a chance.

Heyyyy now, don't go taking your prophecies out of order. The Second Prophecy of Mandos was given after the War of Wrath, "when Fionwe and the sons of the Valar returned to Valmar and told of all the things that had been done" (HoME V). According to my research (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19284), the only Turin-prophecy available during his lifetime was the one made by Andreth of the Beorings: that he would return from death at the Last Battle - in context apparently the War of Wrath - and kill Ancalagon.

Which is probably just as well; it would be pretty embarassing if Turin's shenanigans managed to bring about the end of the world on accident.

That said, you're right that retaking Dor-lomin is feasible - or rather, retaking Hithlum. Start with Turin not revealing his presence to Brodda, but waiting until Aerin was... anywhere other than right next to him. She can put him in touch with the Underground, and Turin can merrily build up an outlaw army. Let's assume he learnt the lesson of the Nirnaeth - don't reveal your hand too early, and never trust an Easterling. So the Outlaws 2.0 stay undercover until they are ready. Then, all at once, they strike.

Practically every Easterling hall in Dor-lomin goes on fire in a single night, largely at the hands of their slave-wives. There are a lot of casualties from Hadorian women letting themselves burn with their 'husbands', because this is still a Turin story and we need angst; but the fighting strength of the Outlaws is not affected. Turin's host sweeps the Easterlings from Dor-lomin, out through Hithlum (which is just as afflicted, because of course they've been trading slaves around), and out onto Anfauglith. And then... Turin retakes Barad Eithel and fortifies Eithel Sirion against Morgoth.

The only time Barad Eithel was taken was when the army defending it left its walls because of Gwindor. Turin knows that story very well. He will not let his men leave the castle, and therefore, Hithlum will be secure.

Though come to think of it, Gwin was brought down by the surprise reveal that his kinsman was a prisoner in Angband. Hmmm... does Morgoth have any of Turin's close kin captive? ^_~

hS

[Urwen]

Hmmm... does Morgoth have any of Turin's close kin captive? ^_~

hS


Why, of course not! Why would he have any of Turin's kin captive? Turin is neither important enough nor skilled enough to cause Morgoth any trouble! That's Turgon, who is running around Beleriand slaying Morgoth's creatures everywhere he finds them! So much so that Morgoth is actually scared of him, and is sending Orcs out to catch him! And then Turgon slays them as well! Morgoth gets desperate and keeps sending more and more, who Turgon happily slays each time!

Why do you think he was scared of Turgon so much anyway? Well, now you know. ^_~

And there is his fear that his doom would come from Turgon, maybe because of that little prophecy that Turgon will one day kill him...hmm...?

[Urwen]

How much are Turin/Hurin/Maeglin responsible for the destruction of three Elven realms?

[Huinesoron]

How much are Turin/Hurin/Maeglin responsible for the destruction of three Elven realms?

Hmm. First, two caveats:

1/ In Tolkien's World, fate and free will coexist. Aragorn's role in the War of the Ring was heavily prophesied by at least four people (Malbeth twice, Ivorwen, Gilraen, Elrond), but he's still a hero for it. Likewise, just because a realm was fated to fall, doesn't mean the blame is any less. (Ditto for curses, looking at you Mormegil.)

2/ The prime responsibility for the destruction of a realm goes to the one who destroyed it. But that's a cheap answer, so we'll ignore the attacking parties. All three realms were secure prior to the actions of certain people.

Gondolin - Maeglin directly caused the fall of Gondolin. He betrayed it to the Enemy! Hurin didn't do that, and he was tied to a chair for years. Depending on the telling, Maeglin might even have *sold* the city's location in exchange for a promise to rule it and have Idril for his own. Sure, he had a tragic backstory - but he was an adult, and responsible for his actions. (Idril's mum died on the Ice because Feanor burnt the ships, but you don't see her destroying cities because of it.)

Nargothrond - Turin and Orodreth share the blame here. Nargothrond's security was its secrecy, but Turin knowingly argued to break that, and Orodreth knowingly agreed. I'm not complaining about his desire to take the fight to Morgoth here! But it was entirely possible to send armies out of the city without building a whacking great bridge to point out where the door was. The final battle could have happened and the city remained intact had Turin, with Orodreth's permission, not revealed its location.

Doriath - Not Hurin's fault. He's one contributor of many. Even in the angriest story, he may not even know the curse is real, and he doesn't make his outlaws attack the guards. The destruction of Doriath is...

... well, the first time, I'd say Thingol's fault. In every version he went back on his deal with the dwarves, and in most he treated them shamefully. He was gold-mad and jewel-mad, and all because his pride wouldn't let him not display the Silmaril and keep using the cursed gold.

The second destruction of Doriath is trickier. We can't fault Dior for not giving in to Maedhros' threats, but who else is there? Melian, maybe - she lifted the Girdle, knowing what would happen - but Dior established his rule after she was gone. I suppose the blame has to fall on him after all - he tried to rebuild the old Doriath, ignoring the fact that its primary defense was gone. Nothing in the second fall indicates that Menegroth was as heavily fortified as the last known Elvish city in Beleriand should be.

hS

[Mithadan]

In answering Urwen's question, one must keep in mind the nature of the War of the Jewels. It was fundamentally unwinnable. The Noldor, even allied with Men and the Dwarves of the Ered Luin, could never defeat Morgoth. They might hinder his plans, stymie his movements and slow his advances. They might even win a battle or two, but they could never win the War. The destruction of the Noldorin realms in Beleriand was inevitable. Doriath was not a Noldorin realm, and I will address it last.

Nargothrond - Ulmo warned Finrod and Turgon "to prepare for a day of evil, and to establish a retreat, lest Morgoth should burst from Angband and overthrow the armies of the North." He did not suggest that either could withstand Morgoth. The Fall of Nargothrond was the result of a succession of errors, with Turin, his bridge and the open defense of the realm being just the latest in a series of contributing events. And he was under Morgoth's curse. There is a detailed thread on Morgoth's curse upon Hurin and his house in the Books Forum with the most recent posts being within the past year. Finrod may have erred in admitting Curufin, Celegorm and their people into Nargothrond after Dagor Bragollach. Curufin and Celegorm poisoned the realm and suborned his rule. Their speeches after the arrival of Beren caused Nargothrond to cower in fear and avoid open conflict. Orodreth allowed this policy to continue. All these things contributed to the fall of Nargothrond, but it was inevitable. Turin bore some responsibility for the fall of Nargothrond but certainly no more than others.

Gondolin - Maeglin's treason may have revealed the location of Gondolin and the routes to enter Tumhalad. He may have been a contributory cause without which Gondolin might have survived for some time longer. But, it was Turgon who rejected the counsel of Ulmo conveyed to him by Tuor, "Love not too well the work of thy hands... the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea." If Turgon had heeded the words of Ulmo, his kingdom, though not his city, may have survived.

Doriath is more complicated. It was not a Noldorin Kingdom. It did not fall under Mandos' prophecy (or curse as some have said), at least until... Thingol decided to be clever and sent Beren off to secure a Silmaril, tying Doriath into the ill-fate of the Noldor. And, Thingol could have swallowed his pride and returned the Silmaril to the Feanoreans. Hurin only brought the Nauglamir which led Thingol to summon Dwarven smiths. But the Nauglamir was an excuse for the Dwarves. They were seduced by the Silmaril.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

If we accept The Wanderings of Hurin, then he bears a great deal of the blame for the destruction of Brethil.

[Mithadan]

With that, I agree, both with your conclusion and your caveat.