Tidbits of Curiosity

[Urwen]

So here's the deal. Rather than making a separate thread for each random/silly question I might have, I'll put all of my question here.


Now, for my first question: Did Maeglin really deserve to die?

[Galadriel55]

Now, for my first question: Did Maeglin really deserve to die?

Shall we quote Gandalf about the dangers of passing judgement on who deserves death? ;)

In seriousness, though, whatever his reasons Maeglin did betray his entire city to Morgoth. He got captured going against the law, he gave away the location of Gondolin not for fear or pain but for greed, and it wouldn't be unreasonable that national treason of such scale be rewarded death. Such a betrayal is not justified by personal quarrel. He gave up the entire city, the city that was said to be the hope of Elvenkind, the only thing Morgoth couldn't find or control, a whole freaking Elven kingdom - knowingly and willingly! It's a tad different from Gorlim who also betrayed companions for personal reasons, but he was tricked and unwilling. I guess grief is also a more sympathetic feeling than lust.

Good idea for a small question chatroom-like thread!

[Urwen]

So you believe he did deserve it?

[Galadriel55]

So you believe he did deserve it?

Why not ask the other way around: what do you think did he deserve? What could have gone differently so that he lived? Or maybe died differently? So - do you think he deserved a different end?

[Urwen]

Well, if you asked me, they were bound to notice he was missing, so they should have searched for him. Maybe the whole thing could have been averted if they did.


And he was not merely one of the multitudes either. He was practically royalty, and quite possibly the heir to the city (There was no law that allowed women to inherit at the time). So there was no reason not to look for him.


Furthermore, if they had organized a search-and-rescue operation, they could have healed him from the physical/mental wounds. And they could have helped him overcome his lust as well.


The whole thing reeks of neglect to me.

[Huinesoron]

Taking the 1917 Fall of Gondolin as my source, I can at least say that Maeglin - Meglin, at that point - deserved to die at the time he was killed: he was busy trying to abduct Idril and murder Earendil at the time. In a war, killing someone who is attacking you is fairly acceptable.

As a more general 'was M[a]eglin irredemable', I think the 1917 text gives a fairly firm yes to that, too. There's no indication that he was lost for a long time: he goes to the hills, wanders off into the mountains, gets captured by Orcs, and almost immediately says 'Hey, I'm the prince of Gondolin and I can tell you how to destroy it' (he says this to his captors, not to Morgoth or any higher-ups; all indications are that he just launched straight into high treason). He was also sent home 'lest at his absence men suspect somewhat'; that implies that in the events that actually occurred, he wasn't gone over-long.

How do the other versions of the tale match up? (I'm just working through the Fall of Gondolin standalone here.) The Sketch of the Mythology tells us that he went 'far afield' over the mountains, and only betrays Gondolin in Angband - though his lust for Idril and hatred for Tuor make it easier for him. Tuor still rescues his family from Maeglin and kills him.

The Quenta Noldorinwa informs us that Maeglin 'purposed to possess' Idril, and in this case his getting lost is because he 'went with few of his folk beyond the leaguer of the hills, though the king knew not that his bidding was defied'. It seems that Maeglin was prone to going off on long mining expeditions; there was no way for people to know that this time he'd gotten lost.

However, this time it's threat of torture that leads to his betrayal... but he's also explicitly tasked with helping the invasion from the inside. Yet again Tuor has to rescue his family, and this time Maeglin's death seems to be from falling over the wall during a fight.

And that's... it, as far as the source texts go (Of Tuor &c never got that far). From all the evidence, I would say that:

-Maeglin was super creepy about Idril. Admittedly that isn't a capital crime.
-No-one had reason to believe he had been captured; he was just off on another long mining trip.
-He was probably breaking the law of the city already on those trips.
-He wasn't tortured into revealing the secrets of Gondolin, but gave them up in return for his safety and great rewards (usually rule of the city + Idril).
-At his death, he was actively attacking Idril and Earendil; Tuor's actions were in defense of his family.

I'm going to say yes, based on everything we know, he deserved to die.

hS

[Urwen]

I concur.


I confess I'm rather attached to him for some reason......


(I had a picture of him hanged on my bedroom wall for a while, can you believe that?)

[Urwen]

Anyway, this brings me to my next question. There are some theories that his fall didn't kill him at all. What do you think?

[Huinesoron]

Anyway, this brings me to my next question. There are some theories that his fall didn't kill him at all. What do you think?

"Great was the fall of his body, and it smote Amon Gwareth three times ere it pitched in the midmost of the flames."

You're right that it doesn't actually say that he dies (just that his name has 'gone out in shame'). But, I mean... that sounds pretty deadly.

It is possible that Elven toughness plus cleverly-wrought mail might protect someone against a short fall (as Frodo's mithril protected him against a spear-thrust), so the question becomes: how tall are the walls of Gondolin, and how tall is Amon Gwareth?

The FoG tells us that Tuor and Voronwe reached the bottom of the stairs 'after a day's light march', and that they reached top at 'the last sunlight'. We know it's a long stair, but how long?

Perhaps it's easier to come at this the other way: if Maeglin struck the rock three times, that makes for four impacts total. Assuming he comes to a complete vertical halt each time, and assuming all four impacts are evenly spaced, how far can each fall be before an impact is unsurvivable?

A quick Google turns up the fact that 90% of 80-foot falls are fatal to humans. Under Earth's gravity, that's about a 2-second drop, at which point you'll be moving at about 40 mph. (That ties in with how dangerous a 40mph car crash is to a pedestrian.) If we assume that 4 such impacts would kill even an elf, we end up with a maximum survivable height of Gondolin plus Amon Gwareth of 320 ft. That's significantly shorter than a large cathedral; Amon Gwareth would hardly be worth mentioning if it were that small! So the hill must be taller, the falls lomger, the impacts harder... yeah, I don't think Maeglin's coming out of this one alive.

hS

[Urwen]

You're very thorough.....I like it.


In fact, part of the reason I made this was so I could discuss things with you.


I am also curious about what sort of punishment he'd get. There aren't many details about the punishments in Halls of Mandos, so I'd like you to tackle this one.


This is my last question regarding him, at least for now. I might throw some additional ones later, should they spring to mind.


P.S: Recent comments have made me change my signature.

[Galadriel55]

"Great was the fall of his body, and it smote Amon Gwareth three times ere it pitched in the midmost of the flames."

You're right that it doesn't actually say that he dies (just that his name has 'gone out in shame'). But, I mean... that sounds pretty deadly.

It is possible that Elven toughness plus cleverly-wrought mail might protect someone against a short fall (as Frodo's mithril protected him against a spear-thrust), so the question becomes: how tall are the walls of Gondolin, and how tall is Amon Gwareth?

The FoG tells us that Tuor and Voronwe reached the bottom of the stairs 'after a day's light march', and that they reached top at 'the last sunlight'. We know it's a long stair, but how long?

Perhaps it's easier to come at this the other way: if Maeglin struck the rock three times, that makes for four impacts total. Assuming he comes to a complete vertical halt each time, and assuming all four impacts are evenly spaced, how far can each fall be before an impact is unsurvivable?

A quick Google turns up the fact that 90% of 80-foot falls are fatal to humans. Under Earth's gravity, that's about a 2-second drop, at which point you'll be moving at about 40 mph. (That ties in with how dangerous a 40mph car crash is to a pedestrian.) If we assume that 4 such impacts would kill even an elf, we end up with a maximum survivable height of Gondolin plus Amon Gwareth of 320 ft. That's significantly shorter than a large cathedral; Amon Gwareth would hardly be worth mentioning if it were that small! So the hill must be taller, the falls lomger, the impacts harder... yeah, I don't think Maeglin's coming out of this one alive.

hS

Who thinks of what, but the medical student in me wants to assess the extent to which the Elves' health and biological resilience applied to internal organ damage... :D

[Urwen]

Who thinks of what, but the medical student in me wants to assess the extent to which the Elves' health and biological resilience applied to internal organ damage... :D


You ain't experimenting on Maeglin, or on la familia. Or on any of my favorites. Not for as long as I stand. :mad:

[Huinesoron]

Who thinks of what, but the medical student in me wants to assess the extent to which the Elves' health and biological resilience applied to internal organ damage... :D

Do it! I'm not sure what the best evidence regarding blunt-force trauma is... Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth, maybe?

You're very thorough.....I like it.

In fact, part of the reason I made this was so I could discuss things with you.

Well, I'm always happy to talk... the only problem is sorting my wild theorising from the facts!

I am also curious about what sort of punishment he'd get. There aren't many details about the punishments in Halls of Mandos, so I'd like you to tackle this one.

Hmm... punishment? You're right that the Silm doesn't go i to the details of the Halls much, but BoLT tells us a lot more:

"There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might again... go forth to laugh and sing again."

There's no word here of punishment, except in the length of their stay; it's widely asserted that Feanor is never getting out, but the Silm tells us that Finrod left very quickly. That's Mandos' judgement: how long you have to stay there.

The Prophecy of Mandos confirms that this is actually a punishment, in the Silm: "There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you." But the implication seems to be that the only direct punitive action is locking you up with your memories of what you did - unfiltered, one assumes, by the delusions of righteousness we create in life.

Interestingly, there is punishment of the dead in BoLT - but only of Men. Fui, who's kind of a dark fusion of Vaire and Nienna, judges them in her hall that's even grimmer than Mandos. Some she sends on to Mandos (for reasons unspecified), some get to go live in Valmar, most she sends down to camp on the plains of Arvalin until the End of Days - but some she straight up kicks back over the mountains to be captured by Melkor.

Fortunately, this whole idea was entirely rejected by the time of the Silm; but Mandos as a place of waiting and reflection seems to have remained.

One idea I haven't been able to source tonight is that some Elven shades might never reach Mandos, but be captured by Morgoth. I know I've seen it bandied about; if it holds true in the later canon, then the only named defector to Morgoth would probably be a good candidate - and we can assume that the Dark Lord wouldn't be inclined to treat his new toy gently...

hS

[Galadriel55]

You ain't experimenting on Maeglin, or on la familia. Or on any of my favorites. Not for as long as I stand. :mad:

Needs no experiment, just an ultrasound machine after his fall... :D

Occasionally my brain runs on autopilot down familiar tracts, and I end up in weird places. Like I may start wondering how quickly Hurin's kidney function would tank if Morgoth didn't let him drink, and I have to remind myself that creatinine clearance doesn't apply to humans who are magically put into a state of trance-like existence for many many years. Or I read about the Houses of Healing and start debating which patient is the most acidotic, and remind myself that the Black Breath is not supposed to be explicable by physiology to begin with. In some stories it's fun to diagnose the characters, but Tolkien's books are not meant for that.

But what I wonder about most in the fantasy universes is how the heart functions are split between the two Time Lord hearts, how the cardiovascular system is connected, and how electrical activity and contractility are coordinated. This is not just my brain reacting to trigger words, this is a legitimate question. Does no one else wonder what the two-heart physiology is like? :D

[Urwen]

Do it! I'm not sure what the best evidence regarding blunt-force trauma is... Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth, maybe?



Well, I'm always happy to talk... the only problem is sorting my wild theorising from the facts!



Hmm... punishment? You're right that the Silm doesn't go i to the details of the Halls much, but BoLT tells us a lot more:

"There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might again... go forth to laugh and sing again."

There's no word here of punishment, except in the length of their stay; it's widely asserted that Feanor is never getting out, but the Silm tells us that Finrod left very quickly. That's Mandos' judgement: how long you have to stay there.

The Prophecy of Mandos confirms that this is actually a punishment, in the Silm: "There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you." But the implication seems to be that the only direct punitive action is locking you up with your memories of what you did - unfiltered, one assumes, by the delusions of righteousness we create in life.

Interestingly, there is punishment of the dead in BoLT - but only of Men. Fui, who's kind of a dark fusion of Vaire and Nienna, judges them in her hall that's even grimmer than Mandos. Some she sends on to Mandos (for reasons unspecified), some get to go live in Valmar, most she sends down to camp on the plains of Arvalin until the End of Days - but some she straight up kicks back over the mountains to be captured by Melkor.

Fortunately, this whole idea was entirely rejected by the time of the Silm; but Mandos as a place of waiting and reflection seems to have remained.

One idea I haven't been able to source tonight is that some Elven shades might never reach Mandos, but be captured by Morgoth. I know I've seen it bandied about; if it holds true in the later canon, then the only named defector to Morgoth would probably be a good candidate - and we can assume that the Dark Lord wouldn't be inclined to treat his new toy gently...

hS


A certain fanfiction writer posited that dead souls can be counter-summoned by Morgoth to do his bidding. What if he did that with Maeglin?


Oh, and also, I think that if there were psychiatrists in middle Earth, several individuals could have benefit from them (Turin, Nienor, Maeglin etc)


Most notably Turin, for obvious reasons.

[Urwen]

the only named defector to Morgoth would probably be a good candidate - and we can assume that the Dark Lord wouldn't be inclined to treat his new toy gently...

hS


Who are you referring to here?

[Galadriel55]

A certain fanfiction writer posited that dead souls can be counter-summoned by Morgoth to do his bidding. What if he did that with Maeglin?

What kind of bidding are we talking about? What can a soul actually do?

But generally I don't think Maeglin would be very happy about it. He might demand some favours in repayment for his betrayal though.


Oh, and also, I think that if there were psychiatrists in middle Earth, several individuals could have benefit from them (Turin, Nienor, Maeglin etc)

Put Morwen on some antidepressants, for god's sake! :p

[Urwen]

I dunno, but I suppose that's who Huin was talking about in his latest post. There are plenty of individuals who defected to Morgoth - Ulfang, Uldor and their Easterlings, for example - but he talked about Elves beforehand. And there is only one known elf that defected to Morgoth.


(P.S. You two should really try a hand at my latest password.)

[Huinesoron]

Who are you referring to here?

Sorry, yes, I meant 'only elf', ie, Maeglin.

Put Morwen on some antidepressants, for god's sake! :p

Ai, Morwen... her death is so depressing. "Hey, husband - our kids are dead, so I may as well give up. How's you?"

I hope Nienna had a nice sympathetic chat with that entire house before Mandos sent them on their way.

hS

[Urwen]

Sorry, yes, I meant 'only elf', ie, Maeglin.



That is....a rather disturbing spin on the whole thing. Also, I suppose that this is also your answer to this question


A certain fanfiction writer posited that dead souls can be counter-summoned by Morgoth to do his bidding. What if he did that with Maeglin?

[Galadriel55]

Ai, Morwen... her death is so depressing. "Hey, husband - our kids are dead, so I may as well give up. How's you?"

I was thinking more about "My younger child died of illness so I'm just gonna neglect the older one".

I hope Nienna had a nice sympathetic chat with that entire house before Mandos sent them on their way.

Grief counselling is a thing... :D Seriously though, that family just has an abnormal share of terrible things happen to them. I would like to see Nienna and Mandos make some extra effort with them.

[Urwen]

I was thinking more about "My younger child died of illness so I'm just gonna neglect the older one".



Grief counselling is a thing... :D Seriously though, that family just has an abnormal share of terrible things happen to them. I would like to see Nienna and Mandos make some extra effort with them.


But none of la familia ended up in Mandos, so I doubt that they're under jurisdiction of those two.

[Galadriel55]

But none of la familia ended up in Mandos, so I doubt that they're under jurisdiction of those two.

A little kindness wouldn't hurt.

The Valar kind of gave Men the short end of the stick. Elves got the attention, and the guidance, and a cozy corner in the house; it was their choice to do what they did. Men never had so much love or such a choice. Their fate is not bound to this world so what, the Valar have no responsibility for them? They get stuck with Morgoth and just have to deal with it. House of Hador gets the sucks even more than the rest. And Hurin even argues theology with Morgoth, he stands by what he has learned about the Valar from the Elves. Is it not at least slightly decent to give that family some recognition? We're not talking about judgement or jurisdiction, just a kind word (or maybe even a "thank you", if not an "I'm sorry"?).

Not to mention that Turin may have the power to one day vanquish Morgoth and you want him to not hate you ^.^

[Urwen]

Funny how this thread went from discussing Maeglin to discussing la familia. :p


(Not that I mind, as both topics have my interest, but it's still funny)

[Galadriel55]

Funny how this thread went from discussing Maeglin to discussing la familia. :p


(Not that I mind, as both topics have my interest, but it's still funny)

What I am enjoying most is not closing the Downs page for hours now, going between this thread and the Quiz room endlessly. This much activity only ever happens in Werewolf games! It's great!

[Urwen]

What I am enjoying most is not closing the Downs page for hours now, going between this thread and the Quiz room endlessly. This much activity only ever happens in Werewolf games! It's great!


Me too. Let's see how fast you guess the remaining two

[Galadriel55]

Me too. Let's see how fast you guess the remaining two

They are proving to be difficult to solve.

[Urwen]

They are proving to be difficult to solve.


I could say something right now that would let you have the last one on the silver platter, but in the interest of fairness, I'm not gonna.

[Galadriel55]

I could say something right now that would let you have the last one on the silver platter, but in the interest of fairness, I'm not gonna.

Give it some time, and a chance for others to help.

[Urwen]

Give it some time, and a chance for others to help.


Mwahahaha, I am in stitches. I used this very thread to kickstart the theme!


I am so cheeky. :p

[Urwen]

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Do you have any themes in particular you'd like to discuss while I think about my next question?

[Galadriel55]

Sorry, dropped the ball (but only because I was writing the next password!). Dunno, I'm mainly fooling around.

[Huinesoron]

A little kindness wouldn't hurt.

The Valar kind of gave Men the short end of the stick. Elves got the attention, and the guidance, and a cozy corner in the house; it was their choice to do what they did. Men never had so much love or such a choice. Their fate is not bound to this world so what, the Valar have no responsibility for them? They get stuck with Morgoth and just have to deal with it. House of Hador gets the sucks even more than the rest. And Hurin even argues theology with Morgoth, he stands by what he has learned about the Valar from the Elves. Is it not at least slightly decent to give that family some recognition? We're not talking about judgement or jurisdiction, just a kind word (or maybe even a "thank you", if not an "I'm sorry"?).

Not to mention that Turin may have the power to one day vanquish Morgoth and you want him to not hate you ^.^

I think there is reason to hope for exactly this. Obviously the idea of Men going to Nienna's halls for judgement is out, but consider this:

-Tolkien Gateway gives, unsourced, the statement that the name 'Halls of Awaiting' refers to the fact that Men and Elves await their different fates in Mandos.

-The Valaquenta tells us that 'all those who wait in Mandos cry to' Nienna, 'for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom'.

We know how much Tolkien liked to keep and adapt old ideas rather than just throwing them out; it's perfectly reasonable to think that, where once Fui was the cruel judge of mortals, now Nienna is their kind listening ear and shoulder to cry on, to help them get their heads in order before they head on Out.

Shades of Death of the Endless here, I know, but in a setting where even Feanor just gets put in permanent time-out, I think we have to assume Turin and Nienor at least get a hug.

hS

[Urwen]

I just realized that Turin and Tuor have something in common: they both killed an Elf (or Elves, in Turin's case). I feel that this is an interesting parallel.

[Urwen]

Also, is it just me, or is Tuor glaring at Maeglin in this picture?


https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/d85cb108-8b29-40c7-8c72-dffd44bc0b52/d6r4vo6-c993b08d-274b-493f-9e85-0233d44ca61f.jpg/v1/fill/w_1024,h_512,q_75,strp/lords_of_gondolin_by_kazuki_mendou_d6r4vo6-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI 1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNh NWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMT g4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7 ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9NTEyIiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvZDg1Y2IxMD gtOGIyOS00MGM3LThjNzItZGZmZDQ0YmMwYjUyXC9kNnI0dm82 LWM5OTNiMDhkLTI3NGItNDkzZi05ZTg1LTAyMzNkNDRjYTYxZi 5qcGciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9MTAyNCJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46 c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.mwQMjhJbsxXdD YylFYzk-L_EcXuh-m0FBUsyXJ_mxtU


Maybe he realized the truth early on?


(Image credit to Kazuki-MENDOU)

[Galadriel55]

I think Maeglin's earlier attempts at professing love to Idril would have been more overt. But here Maeglin looks more like Grima might after whispering something nasty but selfless sounding to Theoden. He just has this smug plotting look on his face.

[Urwen]

Any thoughts on this?


I just realized that Turin and Tuor have something in common: they both killed an Elf (or Elves, in Turin's case). I feel that this is an interesting parallel.

[Huinesoron]

I just realized that Turin and Tuor have something in common: they both killed an Elf (or Elves, in Turin's case). I feel that this is an interesting parallel.

That's really interesting! Are there... any other Men known to have pulled that off? (Don't say 'Beren', that's just mean, he didn't intend to... though he was on his way to killing Curufin until Luthien called him off.)

Also, is it just me, or is Tuor glaring at Maeglin in this picture?

Maybe he realized the truth early on?

I think Maeglin's earlier attempts at professing love to Idril would have been more overt. But here Maeglin looks more like Grima might after whispering something nasty but selfless sounding to Theoden. He just has this smug plotting look on his face.

It's really interesting to compare Maeglin's attempts at swaying his king with Grima's. Maeglin managed to keep the defenses of Gondolin relatively low, whereas Rohan never seems to have disarmed; it was all Wormtongue could do to keep Eomer and Theodred from going on the attack! But while Grima was able to get his rival for power (Eomer) exiled, Maeglin couldn't keep his from being given lordship of a House and the hand of the princess. (Also, it seems like Maeglin's obstruction predates his fall to the Dark, whereas Grima's was only at the urging of Saruman.)

Tuor's mistrust was probably... helped by the part where his wife the Seer said 'yeah, I've just had a vision of Cousin M throwing our baby in a fire, that's probably bad'. Idril really is the driving force for Good during the Fall of Gondolin, despite how little attention she gets.

hS

[Urwen]

I believe that she offered her kindness to him, him being an orphan and all, and that's where his love for her comes. He was emotionally stunted, and mistook familial love for romantic one.

[Urwen]

That's really interesting! Are there... any other Men known to have pulled that off?


Apart from the two of them, there were none.

[Urwen]

Tuor's mistrust was probably... helped by the part where his wife the Seer said 'yeah, I've just had a vision of Cousin M throwing our baby in a fire, that's probably bad'. Idril really is the driving force for Good during the Fall of Gondolin, despite how little attention she gets.

hS


Do you think Ulmo foresaw his treachery, and it was him that Ulmo/Tuor were warning Turgon against?

[Huinesoron]

I believe that she offered her kindness to him, him being an orphan and all, and that's where his love for her comes. He was emotionally stunted, and mistook familial love for romantic one.

Many years ago, I (not seriously) proposed making a Fall of Gondolin musical. Maeglin's first solo would have been entitled "A Girl Who's Not My Mother".

Oh look! A girl who's not my mother!
Amazing! Awesome! I had no idea such a thing existed!
What's this? A girl who's not my mother!
And now I must pursue her, for
This girl -- is not -- my motherrrrr!

I think it'd be a big hit.

(This is possibly unfair to Eol, who may actually have had a household of some kind. But frankly he deserves it.)

I think I agree with your thought, though - it's the sort of thing that happens all the time even today. "She smiled at me - she must want to date me!"

Apart from the two of them, there were none.

Interesting! So, did Tolkien consciously decide that the only Men capable of killing one of the Elder Children were his three great heroes (counting Beren here, because... well, he could have)? Or is it just the fact that they're the only Men who had opportunity to fight Elves while also being the focus of a story?

Honourable mention has to go to Dior Eluchil, who killed Celegorm, thereby in part avenging the kidnapping of his mother years before. But it's implied that Dior had chosen Elven immortality, and...

... huh. Come to think of it, Dior was born to two mortal parents. When that happened to Elros' kids, they were just mortal by default. The evidence suggests, then, that the second King of Doriath may well have been a mortal Man, and his children only regained their immortal legacy through Nimloth their mother. So we can potentially add him to the list and make four.

hS

[Urwen]

Do you think Ulmo foresaw his treachery, and it was him that Ulmo/Tuor were warning Turgon against?



Re: Your question: Honestly, I think that only Turin and Tuor should count as having accomplished such a feat.

[Huinesoron]

Do you think Ulmo foresaw his treachery, and it was him that Ulmo/Tuor were warning Turgon against?

It's possible, but I've never got the impression the Valar could foresee the actions of specific people. Ulmo seems to have been responding more to the Doom of Mandos, and the fact that everything the Noldor built was prophesied to fall.

"Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea."

Re: Your question: Honestly, I think that only Turin and Tuor should count as having accomplished such a feat.

Well, Beren is specifically said to have been in the middle of killing Curufin when Luthien told him to stop... and why exclude Dior?

hS

[Urwen]

It's possible, but I've never got the impression the Valar could foresee the actions of specific people. Ulmo seems to have been responding more to the Doom of Mandos, and the fact that everything the Noldor built was prophesied to fall.

"Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea."



Well, Beren is specifically said to have been in the middle of killing Curufin when Luthien told him to stop... and why exclude Dior?

hS


It's just an opinion I have on things. You're welcome to have a different one, of course.

[Huinesoron]

It's just an opinion I have on things. You're welcome to have a different one, of course.

I should certainly hope so! :) I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on the question of whether Dior was mortal.

hS

[Urwen]

Do you think that Morgoth intended for Maeglin to die?


He made sure Maeglin was safe from his own forces, but he gave him no safety from the people of Gondolin. Meaning he might have anticipated that Maeglin would die either way, at the hands of his own allies no less.


Of course, the question is: what did he hope to accomplish by having his own loyalist killed?

[Urwen]

I should certainly hope so! :) I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on the question of whether Dior was mortal.

hS


Dior is not one of the topics which interests me, so I never dug deeper on that.

[Huinesoron]

Do you think that Morgoth intended for Maeglin to die?

He made sure Maeglin was safe from his own forces, but he gave him no safety from the people of Gondolin. Meaning he might have anticipated that Maeglin would die either way, at the hands of his own allies no less.

Of course, the question is: what did he hope to accomplish by having his own loyalist killed?

On the basis of no evidence at all, I'm going to say yes, he fully intended for Maeglin to die. :D I tend to view Morgoth as the ultimate nihilist - he'll promise anything he cares to, but feels no obligation to keep those promises. Sauron does this too, promising Gorlim his life back to betray Barahir and then offing him anyway.

Did he keep Maeglin safe from his forces? Maeglin was safe, but he never left the city, and I don't remember him running into any Orcs or Balrogs in the FoG. It's entirely possible that if he'd encountered Gothmog, he would have been skewered even while declaring his loyalty to the Iron Crown.

Like I say, this isn't an evidenced position, and I'm more than willing to shift it if you know of source text I've not considered. :)

hS

[Urwen]

On the basis of no evidence at all, I'm going to say yes, he fully intended for Maeglin to die. :D I tend to view Morgoth as the ultimate nihilist - he'll promise anything he cares to, but feels no obligation to keep those promises. Sauron does this too, promising Gorlim his life back to betray Barahir and then offing him anyway.

Did he keep Maeglin safe from his forces? Maeglin was safe, but he never left the city, and I don't remember him running into any Orcs or Balrogs in the FoG. It's entirely possible that if he'd encountered Gothmog, he would have been skewered even while declaring his loyalty to the Iron Crown.

Like I say, this isn't an evidenced position, and I'm more than willing to shift it if you know of source text I've not considered. :)

hS


There isn't evidence per se. Presumably, he gave Maeglin a token he was to show should he encounter any of Morgoth's troops, and they'd leave him alone in turn. But this is just a fan theory I stumbled across. People on another forum say that Maeglin was an agent of Morgoth, who harbored fear and hatred for all Eldar, Maeglin included.


If we suppose this to be the case, then the question 'what did he hope to accomplish with that'?


Also, you never answered my earlier question: Could Morgoth have counter-summoned Maeglin's spirit to do his bidding?


Re: Dior: I thought about this, and I think he was immortal, which means there were three mortals who succeeded in slaying an Elda. (And no, Beren doesn't count, since he didn't actually succeed.)

[Huinesoron]

There isn't evidence per se. Presumably, he gave Maeglin a token he was to show should he encounter any of Morgoth's troops, and they'd leave him alone in turn. But this is just a fan theory I stumbled across. People on another forum say that Maeglin was an agent of Morgoth, who harbored fear and hatred for all Eldar, Maeglin included.

If we suppose this to be the case, then the question 'what did he hope to accomplish with that'?

You ask what Morgoth wanted to accomplish. In a word: discord. Before he was Fire and Ice and Darkness, Melkor was the Power of the sour note, the discordant strain, the chord at odds with the melody. If Sauron or Saruman had a defector in their pocket, they'd want to get as much out of them as they can - Morgoth is happy just to use them once to make a mess of things. Think of how he treats the Easterlings - they stab House Feanor in the back for him, but he cheerfully lets their leaders get slaughtered, then pins what's left of them up in Hithlum. Morgoth has no concept of loyalty to others; Maeglin was just another tool. Worth sending back in case he could get the defenses down, but not something worth keeping around once Gondolin was gone.

Also, you never answered my earlier question: Could Morgoth have counter-summoned Maeglin's spirit to do his bidding?

Good question! I have no idea. :D The idea of Morgoth being able to ensnare Elven spirits is common enough that it must have some source, but I don't know what it is.

So... what use would the Dark Lord get out of the shade of an elf that nobody left alive trusted? You'd have to look into whether possession is a thing in Middle-earth; again, it's a common idea, but what the source is, I couldn't say.

Re: Dior: I thought about this, and I think he was immortal, which means there were three mortals who succeeded in slaying an Elda. (And no, Beren doesn't count, since he didn't actually succeed.)

(Did you mean '... he was mortal'?) It depends what we're really looking for. Like Turin, Tuor, and presumably Dior, Beren overcame an elf in single combat and had the ability to kill him - but he didn't actually do so.

hS

[Urwen]

So... what use would the Dark Lord get out of the shade of an elf that nobody left alive trusted?
hS


Maybe he merely wanted to torture him, as you said earlier.

[Urwen]

Here is an interesting image:


http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/thumb/d/da/Sara_M._Morello_-_Here_for_you_-_Idril_and_Maeglin.jpg/449px-Sara_M._Morello_-_Here_for_you_-_Idril_and_Maeglin.jpg
What do you think about it?

[Urwen]

The 'Fall of Gondolin' book has come out. It'd be a more detailed description on FoG, which means it'll also feature you-know-who more extensively. Can't wait for it to be translated and distributed within my country so I could get my hands on it for more Maeglin goodness.

[Urwen]

What would be a good title for Maeglin-centric fan story?

[Galadriel55]

Here is an interesting image:


http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/thumb/d/da/Sara_M._Morello_-_Here_for_you_-_Idril_and_Maeglin.jpg/449px-Sara_M._Morello_-_Here_for_you_-_Idril_and_Maeglin.jpg
What do you think about it?

Not sure who it's supposed to be. :D

[Galadriel55]

What would be a good title for Maeglin-centric fan story?

Depends on the story, I guess. Can you give us any details?

[Urwen]

Well, there are no stories that depict his complete life, or his time in Halls of Mandos, so I figured I might write both of those.


Because, in case you didn't figure it out from my ramblings, I pity him.

[Huinesoron]

Well, there are no stories that depict his complete life, or his time in Halls of Mandos, so I figured I might write both of those.

Because, in case you didn't figure it out from my ramblings, I pity him.

Sounds exciting! So this thread was a sneaky research project, eh? ^_^

"Child of the Twilight" is a possibility - it's the translation of his Mother-name, and sums up his duality. "Prince of Gondolin" would highlight his presumed authority and feelings of betrayal. Yeah, I tend towards simple titles...

Sadly, the Fall of Gondolin book is pretty much just a collection of the versions found in HoME and UT. It's a beautiful book, but I don't think there's much new in there (though if you don't happen to own the entirety of HoME, I guess there is!).

hS

[Urwen]

Sounds exciting! So this thread was a sneaky research project, eh? ^_^

"Child of the Twilight" is a possibility - it's the translation of his Mother-name, and sums up his duality. "Prince of Gondolin" would highlight his presumed authority and feelings of betrayal. Yeah, I tend towards simple titles...

Sadly, the Fall of Gondolin book is pretty much just a collection of the versions found in HoME and UT. It's a beautiful book, but I don't think there's much new in there (though if you don't happen to own the entirety of HoME, I guess there is!).

hS


I don't own HoME, no.



And yes, I suppose it is, although I was honest about using this thread for random/silly questions.


And yes, I went with 'Child of Twilight' for title. Thank you. If you want the link to the story, just say so and I'll PM it to you.

[Urwen]

Do you think Maeglin was afraid of Caragdur/Amon Gwareth early on?

[Huinesoron]

I think that Maeglin was probably afraid of a lot of things.

A quick character profile, written out as it comes to me, of Maeglin the sympathetic character:

Born in the dark woods, Maeglin was forbidden by his father from seeing the sun. He visited only the mines of the dwarves; his entire childhood was closed-in, by trees or walls.

The ride across Beleriand must have shaken him deeply: he was in a world entirely beyond his experience. Then Gondolin, high rather than deep, full of light - nowhere to hide, everyone insisting he dance and sing, nowhere to just sit and be still. It's no wonder he takes to mining as a way to get a proper roof over his head, and a bit of peace from... everyone.

(Silm tells us that he was an elf of few words; FoG provides that when he returned from his captivity, he talks about joining the dances as if it's something he'd long been urged to.)

And then his father, who has controlled his life, shows up, and kills his mother, and is killed in turn by his uncle. Already worried by heights, yes, I can see that developing into a full-blown phobia for a while. It would also tarnish his uncle in his eyes somewhat, leaving Idril as his only 'pure' family member.

It's not unreasonable to cast him as the youngest person in the city: elves tend not to have kids in time of war, and Turgon is smart enough to have recognised Glaurung's outing in 260 as a serious omen. Maeglin was born in 320, and arrived in the city in 400. So he's the kid (as he has always been, to both his parents), but also, to everyone else, the weird prince. Once again, Idril - barefoot, visionary - is weird enough to be the only person he can possibly relate to.

And yeah - that connection and idolising turns to love, and twists with each rejection.

How does he take the arrival of Huor and Hurin? I don't know - but their departure, when his parents died over that being forbidden, must have burned. That's probably when he began to consider mining expeditions outside the mountains (he had previously abode by the rules Eol set in Nan Elmoth, right up to his escape with Aredhel.)

Tuor? Tuor shows up looking like his replacement, or his bright mirror. Beloved of Idril, prince of Gondolin, leader of a new House - but while Maeglin has trouble talking to people, Tuor finds it easy, effortless. It's hard NOT to hate him.

And then Earendil. If Maeglin is the youngest of Gondolin, Earendil is his final ousting: a new prince, beloved of Turgon, almost certain to steal his position as heir. Sure, it's not the kid's fault- but his upbringing wasn't Maeglin's fault, and look how little people make allowances for THAT.

... or something like that. Maeglin is a misfit, a child of twilight thrust into a world of light that never understood him.

... and also a traitor and lust-driven attempted kinslayer. Tuor didn't exactly have an easy childhood either (what did I say about them being reflections?), but he turned out much better...

hS

[Mithalwen]

Needs no experiment, just an ultrasound machine after his fall... :D

Occasionally my brain runs on autopilot down familiar tracts, and I end up in weird places. Like I may start wondering how quickly Hurin's kidney function would tank if Morgoth didn't let him drink, and I have to remind myself that creatinine clearance doesn't apply to humans who are magically put into a state of trance-like existence for many many years. Or I read about the Houses of Healing and start debating which patient is the most acidotic, and remind myself that the Black Breath is not supposed to be explicable by physiology to begin with. In some stories it's fun to diagnose the characters, but Tolkien's books are not meant for that.

:D


I am glad other people think these things. I think it was Maedhros who had me wondering if you could starve an elf to death.

[Galadriel55]

I am glad other people think these things. I think it was Maedhros who had me wondering if you could starve an elf to death.

Thank you!!! So it's not just me. :D

[Urwen]

I think that Maeglin was probably afraid of a lot of things.

A quick character profile, written out as it comes to me, of Maeglin the sympathetic character:

Born in the dark woods, Maeglin was forbidden by his father from seeing the sun. He visited only the mines of the dwarves; his entire childhood was closed-in, by trees or walls.

The ride across Beleriand must have shaken him deeply: he was in a world entirely beyond his experience. Then Gondolin, high rather than deep, full of light - nowhere to hide, everyone insisting he dance and sing, nowhere to just sit and be still. It's no wonder he takes to mining as a way to get a proper roof over his head, and a bit of peace from... everyone.

(Silm tells us that he was an elf of few words; FoG provides that when he returned from his captivity, he talks about joining the dances as if it's something he'd long been urged to.)

And then his father, who has controlled his life, shows up, and kills his mother, and is killed in turn by his uncle. Already worried by heights, yes, I can see that developing into a full-blown phobia for a while. It would also tarnish his uncle in his eyes somewhat, leaving Idril as his only 'pure' family member.

It's not unreasonable to cast him as the youngest person in the city: elves tend not to have kids in time of war, and Turgon is smart enough to have recognised Glaurung's outing in 260 as a serious omen. Maeglin was born in 320, and arrived in the city in 400. So he's the kid (as he has always been, to both his parents), but also, to everyone else, the weird prince. Once again, Idril - barefoot, visionary - is weird enough to be the only person he can possibly relate to.

And yeah - that connection and idolising turns to love, and twists with each rejection.

How does he take the arrival of Huor and Hurin? I don't know - but their departure, when his parents died over that being forbidden, must have burned. That's probably when he began to consider mining expeditions outside the mountains (he had previously abode by the rules Eol set in Nan Elmoth, right up to his escape with Aredhel.)

Tuor? Tuor shows up looking like his replacement, or his bright mirror. Beloved of Idril, prince of Gondolin, leader of a new House - but while Maeglin has trouble talking to people, Tuor finds it easy, effortless. It's hard NOT to hate him.

And then Earendil. If Maeglin is the youngest of Gondolin, Earendil is his final ousting: a new prince, beloved of Turgon, almost certain to steal his position as heir. Sure, it's not the kid's fault- but his upbringing wasn't Maeglin's fault, and look how little people make allowances for THAT.

... or something like that. Maeglin is a misfit, a child of twilight thrust into a world of light that never understood him.

... and also a traitor and lust-driven attempted kinslayer. Tuor didn't exactly have an easy childhood either (what did I say about them being reflections?), but he turned out much better...

hS


Maeglin was 190 yesrs old before he was killed, so not the youngest in Gondolin. Youngest among other Elda, but Tuor was also younger than him.

[Urwen]

I wonder how much strength do mortals have compared to Eldar? It takes a considerable amount of strength to be able to lift someone else high enough to chuck them over a cliff. (Or to steal their own weapon to stab them with for that matter.)

[Huinesoron]

Maeglin was 190 yesrs old before he was killed, so not the youngest in Gondolin. Youngest among other Elda, but Tuor was also younger than him.

Yeah, I meant prior to that. Tuor's arrival, and even more so Earendil's birth, would have disrupted and overturned what I see as a key part of his self-image: that he was the youngest, and that (in the age-old refrain) "nobody understands me!". When Tuor arrives, Maeglin finds out that being youngest doesn't necessarily mean you have to be disliked. He needs to either take that as a lesson and grow - or reject it and come to hate Tuor. We all know which way he went on that score.

This quote from the Fall tells you a lot about Maeglin:

Then Meglin was bidden fare home lest at his absence men suspect somewhat; but Melko wove about him the spell of bottomless dread, and he had thereafter neither joy nor quiet in his heart. Nonetheless he wore a fair mask of good liking and gaiety, so that men said: "Meglin is softened", and he was held in less disfavour; yet Idril feared him the more. Now Meglin said: "I have laboured much and am minded to rest, and to join in the dance and the song and the merrymakings of the folk", and he went no more quarrying stone or ore in the hills: yet in sooth he sought herein to drown his fear and disquiet. Adread possessed him that Melko was ever at hand, and this came of the spell; and he durst never again wander amid the mines lest he again fall in with the Orcs and be bidden once more to the terrors of the halls of darkness.

Twice we're told he no longer knows quiet, and that he used to 'wander amid the mines'; coupled with the Silm statement that "His words were few save in matters that touched him near", I take that as confirmation that he didn't want to be among people. What Morgoth did to him was actually crueller than physical torture: he took away his ability to enjoy the silence. Maeglin literally had to drown out what he'd once found restful, because the Dark Lord had poisoned it against him.

In one way, this is fitting punishment: this is after he'd basically stalked Idril, after he'd betrayed his city for promise of power. But in another, it's unbearably pitiable.

hS

[Urwen]

I agree with you that he was a child, and remained such until the end. Which only makes his end even more tragic.

[Urwen]

Could I have your thoughts regarding this too?


I wonder how much strength do mortals have compared to Eldar? It takes a considerable amount of strength to be able to lift someone else high enough to chuck them over a cliff. (Or to steal their own weapon to stab them with for that matter.)

[Huinesoron]

I wonder how much strength do mortals have compared to Eldar? It takes a considerable amount of strength to be able to lift someone else high enough to chuck them over a cliff. (Or to steal their own weapon to stab them with for that matter.)

I think the key piece of evidence here is the duel of Fingolfin and Morgoth, where we are told:

But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all rent and pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gashed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.

Fingolfin is able to fight on after being crushed under the full strength of Morgoth, and at least momentarily survives his neck being crushed by his weight. But how strong is Morgoth? Well, let's look back at a much earlier event:

Then the Unlight of Ungoliant rose up even to the roots of the Trees, and Melkor sprang upon the mound; and with his black spear he smote each Tree to its core, wounded them deep, and their sap poured forth as it were their blood, and was spilled upon the ground.

How much force do you need to stab a tree to its heart? To ballpark this, I'm going to assume that the Two Trees were the size of the largest giant redwood, so ~30ft in diameter. That means Morgoth's spear has to punch 15 feet.

Let's say the Trees were of similar consistency to a shield. I'm saying this because it means I can use the fact that arrows seem to average just penetrating a shield, meaning I can say that a human-fired arrow would stick maybe an inch into a tree. (That sounds about right.)

Using this list (http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm), we find that a modern arrow imparts ~60 foot-pounds of at impact - it could push 60 lb through one foot. The arrow will penetrate an inch into the tree, meaning we'd need to be able to push 720 lb through that foot to actually penetrate a foot.

And Morgoth pushed his spear 15 times that far. That's right on 10,000 pounds.

Morgoth's minimum known attack strength is like having [url="https://cars.lovetoknow.com/List_of_Car_Weights"]3 medium-sized cars[url] piled on top of you, with their full weight resting on you (so 12 cars, if you're just under one wheel). It's a large elephant stepping directly on you with all four feet. It's the force of a car at 10mph not just hitting you and sending you flying, but crushing you directly against a wall. And Fingolfin survived it.

Arguably, he also lifted it, when he 'thrice arose again'. A super-strong human can apparently lift ~500 lb - Fingolfin operated at 20x that level. Even if we trim that down by arguing that he didn't necessarily push Morgoth straight back up, and that he was operating under extreme adrenaline conditions, we still have to assume something like 5x maximum human strength.

Beren only took down Curufin by knocking his horse over on top of him. Turin grabbed a sword from someone who wanted desperately not to hurt him. Dior probably had elven strength. Tuor is the only known mortal who went up against an elf in a fair fight and won.

hS

[Urwen]

Tuor is the only known mortal who went up against an elf in a fair fight and won.

hS


And then threw said elf over the wall.


http://home.agh.edu.pl/~evermind/galeria/Wygnanski/maeglin.jpg
Tuor the Child-Killer

[Huinesoron]

And then threw said elf over the wall.

Tuor the Child-Killer

I think you're pushing that a bit far. Maeglin saw himself as a child, but that's no excuse for high treason, abduction, and the attempted murder of a seven-year-old in front of his mother. It's possible to understand his mindset without buying into it. ;)

hS

[Urwen]

I think you're pushing that a bit far. Maeglin saw himself as a child, but that's no excuse for high treason, abduction, and the attempted murder of a seven-year-old in front of his mother. It's possible to understand his mindset without buying into it. ;)

hS


True. Maeglin attempted to kill a child too.



However, I too see him as one. By Eldar reckoning, being 190 years old is pretty much an equivalent of a child.



Maybe I am being overly passionate about the whole thing, though....



I think I should change the topic before it gets out of hand.

[Urwen]

What should the new topic be?

[Andsigil]

True. Maeglin attempted to kill a child too.



However, I too see him as one. By Eldar reckoning, being 190 years old is pretty much an equivalent of a child.



Maybe I am being overly passionate about the whole thing, though....



I think I should change the topic before it gets out of hand.

There’s no evidence, to my recollection, that elves matured more slowly than men; they simply lived in their physical prime much longer.

190 year old elf might be young, but he has the accumulated knowledge and presumed wisdom of any 190 year old man.

[Galadriel55]

Twice we're told he no longer knows quiet, and that he used to 'wander amid the mines'; coupled with the Silm statement that "His words were few save in matters that touched him near", I take that as confirmation that he didn't want to be among people. What Morgoth did to him was actually crueller than physical torture: he took away his ability to enjoy the silence. Maeglin literally had to drown out what he'd once found restful, because the Dark Lord had poisoned it against him.

In one way, this is fitting punishment: this is after he'd basically stalked Idril, after he'd betrayed his city for promise of power. But in another, it's unbearably pitiable.

hS

It's very Clockwork Orangy, don't you think?

I agree it's a fitting punishment, as he cannot find satisfaction or make peace with what he's done, and it is very pitiable. Especially since he's pretty much done it to himself, misguidedly.



Tuor the Child-Killer

A child in his own mind, and maybe a gloomy teen by behaviour, but certainly fully geown physically. And given his independence and bits of leadership, I expect he's not quite a child as that. Only in his own mind.

[Huinesoron]

There’s no evidence, to my recollection, that elves matured more slowly than men; they simply lived in their physical prime much longer.

190 year old elf might be young, but he has the accumulated knowledge and presumed wisdom of any 190 year old man.

The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people. For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the fire of their spirit had not consumed them, and the burden of memory was still light upon them.

This same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their skill in words and grace in motion. For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown.

If you want to lean into the 'child' thing, you could have Maeglin be a late-bloomer, still 20 years shy of full growth when he reached Gondolin. But that's not evidenced in the text, and Silm: Of Maeglin actually implies the opposite.

hS

[Urwen]

All right, change of topic.


Who are your favorite character(s) of Tolkien Legendarium?


Mine should be obvious, and so should the reasons I like each one of them.

[Galadriel55]

All right, change of topic.


Who are your favorite character(s) of Tolkien Legendarium?


Mine should be obvious, and so should the reasons I like each one of them.

I don't know, I kinda like most people in their own way. Sometimes I like or dislike people in different chapters (*stares at some hobbits*). Easier to say who I like less.

[Galin]

There’s no evidence, to my recollection, that elves matured more slowly than men; they simply lived in their physical prime much longer.

There is some evidence of slower bodily maturation (and so on), as already noted in the thread, but Laws and Customs does not appear to be Tolkien's last word on the subject. From Tolkien's notes to NKE:

"(…) nette meant "girl approaching the adult" (in her "teens": the growth of Elvish children after birth was little if at all slower than that of the children of Men). The Common Eldarin stem (wen-ed) wendé "maiden" applied to all stages up to the fully adult (until marriage)."

JRRT, from Vinyar Tengwar 47, texts generally dated 1967-70.

I note also ("they" are the Númenóreans):

"Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved "full growth" then they aged, or "wore out", very much more slowly."

JRRT Note 1, The Line of Elros, Unfinished Tales.

Not every relevant citation, but the VT date is the latest I can did up so far.

[Urwen]

I just had a stray thought: what if Gurthang/Anguirely were truly evil? I mean, their maker and all three of their subsequent owners met tragic ends....

[Andsigil]

All right, change of topic.


Who are your favorite character(s) of Tolkien Legendarium?


Mine should be obvious, and so should the reasons I like each one of them.

Cirdan the Shipwright.

I keep hoping that someone uncovers an old shipping trunk, under some clutter in an overgrown garden shed in Tolkien's old home, and finds an original, 300 page manuscript by JRR, entitled, The Adventures of Cirdan.

[Urwen]

Cirdan the Shipwright.

I keep hoping that someone uncovers an old shipping trunk, under some clutter in an overgrown garden shed in Tolkien's old home, and finds an original, 300 page manuscript by JRR, entitled, The Adventures of Cirdan.


I am also hoping to receive more tales about my favorites - specifically Lalaith and Maeglin. They are barely mentioned at all, and then they were both killed off. This injustice needs to be fixed ASAP!


(It'd probably never happen, though, and so I will turn to fanfiction....)

[Galadriel55]

I am also hoping to receive more tales about my favorites - specifically Lalaith and Maeglin. They are barely mentioned at all, and then they were both killed off. This injustice needs to be fixed ASAP!


(It'd probably never happen, though, and so I will turn to fanfiction....)

I'm not sure there is much more to tell about Lalaith - she is supposed to represent all that is lost in the family with her death: joy, innocence, childhood, purity. Sure, we could get some stories showing more of that, but her character would still be known better in the aftermath of her death than in whatever we know about her life.

Maeglin, though, is a much more complex character while living, and I agree that he could be more fleshed out.

[Huinesoron]

I just had a stray thought: what if Gurthang/Anguirely were truly evil? I mean, their maker and all three of their subsequent owners met tragic ends....

How literally do we take Melian? She claims that there is malice in Anglachel, and that "the dark heart of the smith still dwells in it" (way to talk about your husband's cousin!). That's similar to how Gandalf describes the One Ring: "the treasure of the Enemy, fraught with all his malice; and in it lies a great part of his strength of old." If Melian is telling the truth, Anglachel is basically a One Ring Lite, so yeah, it's kind of evil.

The question is, does Anguirel share this trait? That depends on whether putting malice and his heart into the swords was intentional. There's nothing to indicate that Anglachel was forged with the intent of paying it to Thingol, so it might well be similar to its mate, yes.

Speaking of paired swords... does anyone have any thoughts on what this concept of mated pairs of weapons actually... means? You've got Anglachel and Anguirel, and then Glamdring and Orcrist... is it just a super fancy way of saying they were forged together? Or is there something more to it?

Cirdan the Shipwright.

I keep hoping that someone uncovers an old shipping trunk, under some clutter in an overgrown garden shed in Tolkien's old home, and finds an original, 300 page manuscript by JRR, entitled, The Adventures of Cirdan.

Oh, come on, I didn't even know I needed this! :D For preference, I'd like it tucked into the Master Family Tree (like the master map/s), which will finally answer such questions as how many generations there were between the Awakening and the Great March (not to mention naming the Lords of Andunie and Princes of Dol Amroth, Cardolan, and Rhudaur!).

I am also hoping to receive more tales about my favorites - specifically Lalaith and Maeglin. They are barely mentioned at all, and then they were both killed off. This injustice needs to be fixed ASAP!

(It'd probably never happen, though, and so I will turn to fanfiction....)

^_^ And this is why Middle-earth fanfic is the best fanfic: because Tolkien laid down so much material to work from, but also left lots of gaps that we just itch to fill. Obviously it's not as good as getting actual new Tolkien material, but unless you're really into outdated linguistic snippets, that well apparently ran dry with The Children of Hurin, twelve years ago.

hS

[Urwen]

How literally do we take Melian? She claims that there is malice in Anglachel, and that "the dark heart of the smith still dwells in it" (way to talk about your husband's cousin!). That's similar to how Gandalf describes the One Ring: "the treasure of the Enemy, fraught with all his malice; and in it lies a great part of his strength of old." If Melian is telling the truth, Anglachel is basically a One Ring Lite, so yeah, it's kind of evil.

The question is, does Anguirel share this trait? That depends on whether putting malice and his heart into the swords was intentional. There's nothing to indicate that Anglachel was forged with the intent of paying it to Thingol, so it might well be similar to its mate, yes.

Speaking of paired swords... does anyone have any thoughts on what this concept of mated pairs of weapons actually... means? You've got Anglachel and Anguirel, and then Glamdring and Orcrist... is it just a super fancy way of saying they were forged together? Or is there something more to it?



Oh, come on, I didn't even know I needed this! :D For preference, I'd like it tucked into the Master Family Tree (like the master map/s), which will finally answer such questions as how many generations there were between the Awakening and the Great March (not to mention naming the Lords of Andunie and Princes of Dol Amroth, Cardolan, and Rhudaur!).



^_^ And this is why Middle-earth fanfic is the best fanfic: because Tolkien laid down so much material to work from, but also left lots of gaps that we just itch to fill. Obviously it's not as good as getting actual new Tolkien material, but unless you're really into outdated linguistic snippets, that well apparently ran dry with The Children of Hurin, twelve years ago.

hS


Not necessarily. Like I said, Fall of Gondolin book came out.

[Huinesoron]

Not necessarily. Like I said, Fall of Gondolin book came out.

Yeah... unfortunately there's not really new material in there. It's possible that the 'evolution of the story' section has some, but the bulk of it is just the versions told in the Book of Lost Tales, 1930s Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales.

Oh, but you said you've not read HoME, so yes! The Fall contains quite a lot of M[a]eglin, along with a heck of a lot of details about Gondolin itself. You'll like it. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Yeah... unfortunately there's not really new material in there. It's possible that the 'evolution of the story' section has some, but the bulk of it is just the versions told in the Book of Lost Tales, 1930s Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales.

Oh, but you said you've not read HoME, so yes! The Fall contains quite a lot of M[a]eglin, along with a heck of a lot of details about Gondolin itself. You'll like it. :)

hS


Of course there would be. He is the main reason it happened.



And that's what I'm counting on. It would probably be a while before it's translated into my language, though.

[Urwen]

If Idril is the big good of FoG, does that make M[a]eglin big bad? Or does that 'honor' still fall to Morgoth?

[Huinesoron]

If Idril is the big good of FoG, does that make M[a]eglin big bad? Or does that 'honor' still fall to Morgoth?

Interesting. I would say that they do actually occupy much the same position - while not playing a particularly large part in the great events (Maeglin is actually off trying to kidnap Idril at the time), they're the driving force that leads to those events. Maeglin betrays Gondolin, of course; meanwhile Idril commits her own act of arguable treason, going against her father's express wishes to dig an escape tunnel. (She actually tells the people working on it that she'll square it with her dad - but doesn't, because she knows he won't do it!)

Ultimately, the hero of the story still winds up being Tuor, while Morgoth remains as the ultimate villain. But their actions are enabled and pushed forward by the other two.

hS

[Galadriel55]

If Idril is the big good of FoG, does that make M[a]eglin big bad? Or does that 'honor' still fall to Morgoth?

Haven't read it, but here's an idea based on The Silm. Morgoth is always the big bad, the ultimate evil. Elves and Men and Dwarves are never the ultimate villains of the story because none are wholly villains. However, Morgoth often takes the backstage when he is so far away from the development of the plot, so each story has it's own set of antagonists, which in proportion may not be quite as big of a bad but a more relevant bad.

Do you find that Maeglin's story and role seems to resemble that of Gollum?

[Galadriel55]

Interesting. I would say that they do actually occupy much the same position - while not playing a particularly large part in the great events (Maeglin is actually off trying to kidnap Idril at the time), they're the driving force that leads to those events. Maeglin betrays Gondolin, of course; meanwhile Idril commits her own act of arguable treason, going against her father's express wishes to dig an escape tunnel. (She actually tells the people working on it that she'll square it with her dad - but doesn't, because she knows he won't do it!)

Ultimately, the hero of the story still winds up being Tuor, while Morgoth remains as the ultimate villain. But their actions are enabled and pushed forward by the other two.

hS

Cross posted. Interesting thoughts. I saw Idril almlst like the Melian of Gondolin, but I guess you're right: Melian is on Thingol's level and her advice is heeded, while Idril is much below, at the level of Maeglin.

[Urwen]

I think so. Their actions led to good things. Without Maeglin, War of Wrath wouldn't have happened. Without Gollum, the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed.

[Galadriel55]

I think so. Their actions led to good things. Without Maeglin, War of Wrath wouldn't have happened. Without Gollum, the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed.

A [complex] evil that leads to good - but still remains evil?

I was also thinking about their position and eventual choices. Alienated from their society (to different degrees, of course), hiding away from the world, lusting after an unattainable object, betraying the only other thing that matters in order to satisfy the lust by willingly going over to the enemy, eventually dying in a desperate bid for their desire.

[Urwen]

A [complex] evil that leads to good - but still remains evil?

I was also thinking about their position and eventual choices. Alienated from their society (to different degrees, of course), hiding away from the world, lusting after an unattainable object, betraying the only other thing that matters in order to satisfy the lust by willingly going over to the enemy, eventually dying in a desperate bid for their desire.


I suppose that's true, though there are differences. One lusted after another person, the other lusted after an object. One committed suicide, the other was murdered.

[Huinesoron]

One committed suicide, the other was murdered.

'Murder' usually implies you're not in the middle of trying to kill your murderer... ;) They both died by getting into a fight at the top of a cliff and winding up going over the edge.

The biggest difference, really, is that Gollum didn't go over to the Enemy. He gave up information under torture, but remained a free agent afterwards. Maeglin, meanwhile, not only didn't need to be tortured, but ended up actively working to weaken Gondolin for Morgoth's attack.

hS

[Urwen]

'Murder' usually implies you're not in the middle of trying to kill your murderer... ;) They both died by getting into a fight at the top of a cliff and winding up going over the edge.



For a second, I thought you were implying that Tuor fell off the cliff too...Then I realized you meant Gollum. :o

[Urwen]

'Murder' usually implies you're not in the middle of trying to kill your murderer... ;) They both died by getting into a fight at the top of a cliff and winding up going over the edge.

The biggest difference, really, is that Gollum didn't go over to the Enemy. He gave up information under torture, but remained a free agent afterwards. Maeglin, meanwhile, not only didn't need to be tortured, but ended up actively working to weaken Gondolin for Morgoth's attack.

hS


Most of the fanfictions I've read go with the idea that Tuor actively pushed/threw Maeglin off the cliffside. (As in, physically lifting him up and chucking him over the edge)

[Galadriel55]

The biggest difference, really, is that Gollum didn't go over to the Enemy. He gave up information under torture, but remained a free agent afterwards. Maeglin, meanwhile, not only didn't need to be tortured, but ended up actively working to weaken Gondolin for Morgoth's attack.

He did bring Frodo to Shelob - and it's implied that he expected to get the rags and the rings that would be left over after her meal. When he revealed Baggins under torture, he wasn't under any obligation to Frodo, so there was no one to betray.

Most of the fanfictions I've read go with the idea that Tuor actively pushed/threw Maeglin off the cliffside. (As in, physically lifting him up and chucking him over the edge)

Which is still part of the fight that Maeglin started. Killing in battle is not really murder - especially when it's done in defense of yourself and your wife and kid.

[Urwen]

Which is still part of the fight that Maeglin started. Killing in battle is not really murder - especially when it's done in defense of yourself and your wife and kid.


Self-defense is still technically murder, despite being excusable.


See it for yourself:


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b4/cf/3a/b4cf3ad8c5b4e17a783d065377cf196f.jpg
This is what it looked like from Maeglin's perspective.

[Galadriel55]

Self-defense is still technically murder, despite being excusable.


See it for yourself:

This is what it looked like from Maeglin's perspective.

Or, how about: when you get into a fight you hope to win but you also accept the possibility that you lose? What do you want - for Maeglin to be allowed to initiate a match but without fear of consequences? The possible consequences are the same for both parties.

[Urwen]

Or, how about: when you get into a fight you hope to win but you also accept the possibility that you lose? What do you want - for Maeglin to be allowed to initiate a match but without fear of consequences? The possible consequences are the same for both parties.


I am not saying that there shouldn't be consequences. I am saying death is too extreme of a consequence.


Besides, I have always found bad guys more interesting than good guys and goody-two-shoes characters. Forgive me for being upset that one of my favorite characters died. :c


I especially like it when bad guys turned over a new leaf. That is what should have happened here too, imho.

[Huinesoron]

I am not saying that there shouldn't be consequences. I am saying death is too extreme of a consequence.

Besides, I have always found bad guys more interesting than good guys and goody-two-shoes characters. Forgive me for being upset that one of my favorite characters died. :c

I especially like it when bad guys turned over a new leaf. That is what should have happened here too, imho.

Except that Maeglin had every chance to turn over a new leaf, and didn't. Even if he didn't want to confess his treason (reasonable), or turn directly against Morgoth during the battle - all he had to do was accept that Idril wasn't his. To walk away from the city, flash his hypothetical credentials to the nearest Balrog, and sit back to watch it all burn.

He didn't. He went after her - despite her being married to someone else - and while trying to abduct her, also did his best to kill her son and erase the tangible evidence of that marriage.

Now then Meglin had Idril by the hair and sought to drag her to the battlements out of cruelty of heart, that she might see the fall of Earendel to the flames; but he was cumbered by that child, and she fought, alone as she was, like a tigress for all her beauty and slenderness. There he now struggles and delays amid oaths while that folk of the Wing draws nigh - and lo! Tuor gives a shout so great that the Orcs hear it afar and waver at the sound of it. Like a crash of tempest the guard of the Wing were amid the men of the Mole [who were guarding but not intervening], and these were stricken asunder. When Meglin saw this he would stab Earendel with a short knife he had; but that child bit his left hand, that his teeth sank in, and he staggered, and stabbed weakly, and the mail of the small coat turned the blade aside; and thereupon Tuor was upon him and his wrath was terrible to see. He seized Meglin by that hand that held the knife and broke the arm with the wrench, and then taking him by the middle leapt with him upon the walls, and flung him far out.

M[a]eglin's response to the person he hates coming at him with a sword... is to try and murder a seven-year-old child before Tuor can stop him. At that point, even if you can somehow justify 'drag Idril to the wall to watch him throw her son over', he was irredeemable. There's no way he could tell himself he was really doing a good thing, or just misunderstood, or just protecting himself - he'd crossed the line into outright evil.

And that's okay! Evil characters can be fun (evil people, not so much). They can be tragic. Gollum proves that we can very much like reading them. But in Middle-earth, with Tolkien writing it, they also eventually - sometimes very eventually - either are redeemed, or get their comeuppance.

Maeglin made the choice to be irredeemable. His death was a direct result of that.

(Also, practically: what else could Tuor have done? They could hardly drag him with them through the secret tunnel and up the mountains, and letting an enemy go free during a battle is a great way to get stabbed in the back. I suppose he could have crippled him and left him to burn with the city - but would that really be better?)

hS

[Galadriel55]

I am not saying that there shouldn't be consequences. I am saying death is too extreme of a consequence.


Besides, I have always found bad guys more interesting than good guys and goody-two-shoes characters. Forgive me for being upset that one of my favorite characters died. :c

Hey, I agree about the bad guys being more interesting! I never liked Tuor much, cause he's exactly that kind of goody two shoes. Gets the lucky destiny and everything just falls to his feet.

But I don't think Maeglin's end was extreme. Firstly, regardless of whether he deserved punishment for betrayal, he engaged in a fight with Tuor. There's a certain understanding, a social contract of sorts, that in a fight physical damage is not only acceptable but expected. In a life and death fight, death is predictable. And note that Maeglin initiates the personal conflict: he has the choice to take that risk or leave it; Tuor, as the receiver, does not have the same choice. You wouldn't say that Eowyn murdered a Nazgul, because murder is not a great word choice in the context of battles.

Moreover, I still argue that if Maeglin's treason was known before the Fall, he might have been tried and executed. There's a chance that if he repented he could have been used to save the people living in the city by misinforming Morgoth or helping evacuate or something, but at least as much chance of being executed foe high treason. After all, what he did was the worst possible thing a citizen of Gondolin could do. So I don't think it's an unfair end for him either.

Edit: crossed with Hui.

[Urwen]

Except that Maeglin had every chance to turn over a new leaf, and didn't. Even if he didn't want to confess his treason (reasonable), or turn directly against Morgoth during the battle - all he had to do was accept that Idril wasn't his. To walk away from the city, flash his hypothetical credentials to the nearest Balrog, and sit back to watch it all burn.

He didn't. He went after her - despite her being married to someone else - and while trying to abduct her, also did his best to kill her son and erase the tangible evidence of that marriage.



M[a]eglin's response to the person he hates coming at him with a sword... is to try and murder a seven-year-old child before Tuor can stop him. At that point, even if you can somehow justify 'drag Idril to the wall to watch him throw her son over', he was irredeemable. There's no way he could tell himself he was really doing a good thing, or just misunderstood, or just protecting himself - he'd crossed the line into outright evil.

And that's okay! Evil characters can be fun (evil people, not so much). They can be tragic. Gollum proves that we can very much like reading them. But in Middle-earth, with Tolkien writing it, they also eventually - sometimes very eventually - either are redeemed, or get their comeuppance.

Maeglin made the choice to be irredeemable. His death was a direct result of that.

(Also, practically: what else could Tuor have done? They could hardly drag him with them through the secret tunnel and up the mountains, and letting an enemy go free during a battle is a great way to get stabbed in the back. I suppose he could have crippled him and left him to burn with the city - but would that really be better?)

hS


They could have chained him or something.


P.S: You up for making a new riddle?

[Galadriel55]

They could have chained him or something.

Not really. 1. No time, city is in chaos and they need to flee, and 2. Again, the two possible ooutcomes of that are either giving him back to the enemy or a slow and painful death. I think the most just option would have been a trial, but that wasn't possible when the treachery was revealed.

[Urwen]

Not really. 1. No time, city is in chaos and they need to flee, and 2. Again, the two possible ooutcomes of that are either giving him back to the enemy or a slow and painful death. I think the most just option would have been a trial, but that wasn't possible when the treachery was revealed.


Depends on what such a trial would entail.


And you think his canonical death wasn't slow or painful? Striking the rock thrice and then gettin' burned seems both slow and painful from where I stand....

[Urwen]

Not really. 1. No time, city is in chaos and they need to flee, and 2. Again, the two possible ooutcomes of that are either giving him back to the enemy or a slow and painful death. I think the most just option would have been a trial, but that wasn't possible when the treachery was revealed.


There is also a quote from another book, which is as follows: 'When an individual takes it upon themselves to be a judge, jury and executioner, they become too dangerous to continue in society.'

[Huinesoron]

There is also a quote from another book, which is as follows: 'When an individual takes it upon themselves to be judge, jury and executioner, they become too dangerous to continue in society.'

Which is what Maeglin did, both to Idril and Earendil in person, and to the entire city of Gondolin...

hS

[Urwen]

So did Tuor....


(Also, way to turn my own argument against me...)

[Huinesoron]

So did Tuor....


(Also, way to turn my own argument against me...)

So did Eowyn, when she murdered the incapacitated Witch-king for threatening Theoden. In fact, I'm pretty sure every member of the Fellowship kills someone at some point (Moria, if nowhere else).

I think what you're really saying is that you wish Maeglin hadn't had to die, because you like the kind of stories Tolkien could have built around his character. I get that! I feel the same way about Finrod, who would have made the Nirnaeth and War of Wrath much more interesting to read about.

But for both of them, in terms both of the narrative structure and of their characters as written, their deaths were necessary - Maeglin to bring the tale of Gondolin to a close, Finrod to show the cost of Beren's quest. Fanfic can save them - but most fanfic doesn't have the same continent-spanning epochal scope as The Silmarillion.

hS

[Urwen]

So did Eowyn, when she murdered the incapacitated Witch-king for threatening Theoden. In fact, I'm pretty sure every member of the Fellowship kills someone at some point (Moria, if nowhere else).

I think what you're really saying is that you wish Maeglin hadn't had to die, because you like the kind of stories Tolkien could have built around his character. I get that! I feel the same way about Finrod, who would have made the Nirnaeth and War of Wrath much more interesting to read about.

But for both of them, in terms both of the narrative structure and of their characters as written, their deaths were necessary - Maeglin to bring the tale of Gondolin to a close, Finrod to show the cost of Beren's quest. Fanfic can save them - but most fanfic doesn't have the same continent-spanning epochal scope as The Silmarillion.

hS


But none of them killed a supposed ally.....

[Urwen]

And, also, look at this image again.


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b4/cf/3a/b4cf3ad8c5b4e17a783d065377cf196f.jpg
You might see a murderer here, but I see someone who is afraid out of their wits.

[Urwen]

But then again, you're probably correct. Every single characters I had liked to any degree was deaded or close to it. All in the name of wrapping up or advancing the plot. And this isn't limited to just Tolkinese characters either. And people think I am silly for being upset over fictional characters. :c

[Galadriel55]

But then again, you're probably correct. Every single characters I had liked to any degree was deaded or close to it. All in the name of wrapping up or advancing the plot. And this isn't limited to just Tolkinese characters either. And people think I am silly for being upset over fictional characters. :c

Hey, dying makes a character that much more interesting! (And some would have been more interesting if they stayed dead *coughBerencough*).

But I don't think that picture gives a good and balanced view. For instance, in my mind I see a desperate and terribly frightened Idril and Earendil, not the pair calmly watching over Tuor's shoulder. Also, falling and dying are both terrifying things, which gives the possibility of the picture's interpretation. However, just a moment before the fall, Maeglin's expression could easily have been that of mad fury, and perhaps that was still his expression as he fell - that's left up to us, and I leave the degree of his madness an open question. So no, I will not judge the story differently based on this picture.

[Urwen]

Hey, dying makes a character that much more interesting! (And some would have been more interesting if they stayed dead *coughBerencough*).

But I don't think that picture gives a good and balanced view. For instance, in my mind I see a desperate and terribly frightened Idril and Earendil, not the pair calmly watching over Tuor's shoulder. Also, falling and dying are both terrifying things, which gives the possibility of the picture's interpretation. However, just a moment before the fall, Maeglin's expression could easily have been that of mad fury, and perhaps that was still his expression as he fell - that's left up to us, and I leave the degree of his madness an open question. So no, I will not judge the story differently based on this picture.


Well, then you best hope I get my hands on that book asap, because as it stands, this is my POV, and the only way it can change is if details from that book cause it to change.

[Galadriel55]

Well, then you best hope I get my hands on that book asap, because as it stands, this is my POV, and the only way it can change is if details from that book cause it to change.

Nothing wrong with standing firm in your pov, as long as you can reasonably argue your side and hear arguments from other sides. It's fun to debate things, and the point is not to convince the most people to agree with you but to present things so that they're seen in a different light. I still maintain my general view that what happened to Maeglin wasn't unreasonable, but maybe as a result of this thread I'll ljke him a little better. :p

[Urwen]

Nothing wrong with standing firm in your pov, as long as you can reasonably argue your side and hear arguments from other sides. It's fun to debate things, and the point is not to convince the most people to agree with you but to present things so that they're seen in a different light. I still maintain my general view that what happened to Maeglin wasn't unreasonable, but maybe as a result of this thread I'll ljke him a little better. :p


And while I can see that his death wasn't unreasonable, I still wish it didn't have to happen. Because as weird as it seems, I like him. Possibly because I see him as a kindred spirit of sorts.


I know how it feels to be all alone. To hope for something that is beyond your reach. To see the people you trusted and cared about - people who you thought cared about you in turn - abandon you and then move on like you never mattered to them in the first place.

[Galadriel55]

And while I can see that his death wasn't unreasonable, I still wish it didn't have to happen. Because as weird as it seems, I like him. Possibly because I see him as a kindred spirit of sorts.


I know how it feels to be all alone. To hope for something that is beyond your reach. To see the people you trusted and cared about - people who you thought cared about you in turn - abandon you and then move on like you never mattered to them in the first place.

Well, that kinda happened because Maeglin was an oddball, but I agree that wasn't really his fault. :)

[Urwen]

Well, that kinda happened because Maeglin was an oddball, but I agree that wasn't really his fault. :)


Well, I am an oddball too, so thanks for proving my point....


Does this mean someone would kill me too in the future? By throwing me off a cliff?


I knew my fear of heights had to come from somewhere. Maybe I'm his reincarnation? (or his descendant)


Also, our given names both begin with M. Coincidence? I think not....

[Urwen]

Come to think of it, that is an interesting theme for next discussion. Do you think us in the modern world are reincarnations/descendants of Tolkinese characters? If so, whom do you think you are reincarnation/descendant of?

My answer is in my previous post.

[Andsigil]

Self-defense is still technically murder, despite being excusable.

I hate to be the guy who says, "Ackshually...." but I'm going to be him. My apologies.

Actually, self-defense isn't technically murder. It's a homicide

Homicide is simply a killing of one person by another. There is no implication of guilt or innocence applied to it, as people may be found innocent, such as in a lawful case of self-defense, or justifiable homicide.

Murder (and Manslaughter) are considered unlawful homicides. Murder must contain what's known as mens rea (Latin: "guilty mind"), also called "malice aforethought," which is the intention or knowledge of wrongdoing.

The killing of one person (or elf) by another in war, under the circumstances described by Tolkien vis-a-vis Maeglin, doesn't constitute murder and was a clear case of (lawful) self-defense.

[Urwen]

I hate to be the guy who says, "Ackshually...." but I'm going to be him. My apologies.

Actually, self-defense isn't technically murder. It's a homicide

Homicide is simply a killing of one person by another. There is no implication of guilt or innocence applied to it, as people may be found innocent, such as in a lawful case of self-defense, or justifiable homicide.

Murder (and Manslaughter) are considered unlawful homicides. Murder must contain what's known as mens rea (Latin: "guilty mind"), also called "malice aforethought," which is the intention or knowledge of wrongdoing.

The killing of one person (or elf) by another in war, under the circumstances described by Tolkien vis-a-vis Maeglin, doesn't constitute murder and was a clear case of (lawful) self-defense.


So chucking people off cliffs is socially acceptable? Good to know.



I happen to have quite a number of people I'd love to throw off a cliff.


(Maedhros and Maeglin are literal cliff-hangers, aren't they?)

[Andsigil]

So chucking people off cliffs is socially acceptable? Good to know.



I happen to have quite a number of people I'd love to throw off a cliff.


(Maedhros and Maeglin are literal cliff-hangers, aren't they?)

There is this thing; it’s called “context.” Your statement lacks it entirely, which is why I (futilely, it turns out) tried to give some.

[Urwen]

Well, maybe I;m not past the whole 'defend my favorites until the end' phase like I thought I was.

[Huinesoron]

All this talk of defense and murder got my mind running down certain pathways, and I just had to. So... this got a little long, I'm afraid.

~

The Trial of Tuor of Gondolin (House of the Wing)

For the Defense: Pengolodh of Gondolin (House of the Harp)
For the Prosecution: Urwen of Gondolin (House of the Mole)
Presiding: Cirdan, Lord of Balar, Steward to the High King

~~~~~

Charge the First: That in wedding Idril, and siring on her the child Earendil, Tuor did defy the laws of nature in joining the Elder and Younger children.

Witness for the prosecution - Celebrimbor of Nargothrond: The Eldar and the Edain were set apart even from the beginning; their fates in death are different. Yet, seeing as the marriage of the Eldar is deemed to last until the Last Days, saving that one partner choose to remain forever in the Halls of Awaiting, it is unright that a union should be formed that must needs be broken, all unwilling, on the death of the mortal spouse.

Witness for the defense - Elwing of Doriath: The Powers of Arda have expressed approval of such a union: that of Luthien of Doriath to Beren of Dorthonion. We may not suppose that the unique resolution of their case will by necessity be repeated; yet still we may presume that their acceptance applies to all such cases.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; the precedent applies.

~~~~~

Charge the Second: That in wedding Idril, Tuor did usurp the right of Maeglin, his elder in years and superior in the laws of the city, to her hand.

Witness for the prosecution - Eglamoth of Gondolin (House of the Heavenly Arch): Maeglin many a time presented his suit to Turgon the king, nor at any time was he told that he was forbidden further to pursue the hand of Idril.

Witness for the defense: Pengolodh of Gondolin: It has never been true that the hand of a maiden of the Noldor, even one of noble birth, lies with her father; the Eldar wed for love, not for rank and power. Nor has it ever been shown that two suitors may not compete for the same bride. Further, the wedding of Maeglin and Idril would have bound cousins of the first degree, which by long custom is forbidden among the Eldar.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; if there is fault, it lies in Turgon not informing Maeglin of the relevant custom forbidding the union.

~~~~~

Charge the Third: That in delving in secret a tunnel from the city of Gondolin towards the Cleft of Eagles, Tuor did defy the will of the High King, who forbade preparations for escape; and further, that in doing so without the aid of the House of the Mole, he did usurp the rights of Maeglin the Prince.

Witness for the prosecution - Idril of Gondolin (House of the King): It is true that the delvings were carried out in secret, to hide them from the eyes of Turgon and Maeglin both; and this was done by my advice.

Witness for the defense - Voronwe of Gondolin (House of the Wing): Tuor was sent to Gondolin by the Vala Ulmo, and charged with the preservation of its people against the wrack of Melkor; such charge from the Powers of Arda does override the command of the High King. The instruction to keep the delvings secret from Maeglin were given by Idril in her capacity as Seer, and it is presumed that such gifts of Foresight as she possesses are granted by said Powers. Indeed, such was shown when Turgon himself, led by vision from Ulmo, did remove himself from the authority of the High King his father, and prepare in secret the very city Gondolin.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; the precedent of Turgon applies.

~~~~~

Charge the Fourth: That in gathering about himself a body of armed men, and marking them with his symbol, Tuor did usurp the right of the king to determine the bearing of arms; and that in instructing the people of that city to obey Tuor should Turgon be slain, he did usurp the rights of Maeglin the Prince.

Witness for the prosecution - Enerdhil of Gondolin (House of the Hammer of Wrath): All the Houses of Gondolin were named as such by the king; and upon the slaying of his parents, Maeglin was proclaimed a Prince of the blood, and presumed by all to be King's Heir in Gondolin.

Witness for the defense - Hendor of Gondolin (House of the King): The assent of Turgon was sought before ever the House of the Wing was assembled, and under his command were they drawn up to the defense of the city alongside the other houses; and in the attempted slaying of Earendil, Maeglin did forefeit his rights as a prince.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty to the first part, by assent of Turgon. Guilty to the second part, for Maeglin's treachery had not yet become known; however, inasmuch as the visions of Idril forewarned of danger at Maeglin's hand, no sentence to be passed upon Tuor.

~~~~~

Charge the Fifth: That in assailing Maeglin during the battle in Gondolin, Tuor did unlawfully turn his hand against an ally and superior during a time of war; and that this does constitute treason against the City of Gondolin.

Witness for the prosecution - Urwen of Gondolin: As previously shown, Maeglin was proclaimed Prince of Gondolin. Those who hold command may ofttimes undertake actions which seem foolhardy or controversial to their followers, as Fingon's rescue of Maedhros, Finrod's stealth mission to Tol-in-Gaurhoth, &c. By attacking Maeglin when he had not openly disavowed his title as Prince, Tuor did act unlawfully and treacherously.

Witness for the defense - Galadriel of Doriath: Seldom do the Free Peoples war against each other or purpose to harm each other; yet when they do so it is the duty of all to stand against them. The Teleri of Alqualonde are lauded for their defense against House Feanor; the Leap of Beren Erchamion against Curufin is renowned; and the defense of Thingol against the treachery of Nogrod, though futile, is deemed righteous. In the same way, the assault of Maeglin upon Idril and Earendil must be viewed as forfeiture of his loyalty to them and to the city; and in that light was Tuor not only entitled but duty-bound to intervene on their behalf.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; all have the duty to protect innocents against kinslayers.

~~~~~

Charge the Sixth: That in casting Maeglin from the walls of Gondolin, Tuor did unfairly condemn him to death, this constituting murder most unlawful.

Witness for the prosecution - Galdor of Gondolin (House of the Tree): The right of life and death to the people of Gondolin lies in the hands of the king, except where appointed otherwise by him. So too, in Gondolin as elsewhere, the law that surrender offered by even the worst of enemies must be accepted. As it is told that Maeglin's arm was broken ere he was cast over the walls, it might be presumed that he would have given his surrender if offered the chance.

Witness for the defence - Tuor of Gondolin: In war a warrior must needs attempt to slay his foe; this has been so since the First Battle, when Denethor of the Nandor did fight to the death against the creatures of Morgoth. So too, though Maeglin had been disarmed of his dagger, he bore still the black sword Anguirel at his side; and, knowing the hardiness of the Elves, I had no cause to believe that a simple break of one arm would lead to his surrender. Recalling that I, a mortal Man, was far weaker in bodily strength than an Elda, I must needs end the battle swiftly, to ensure the protection of my house, as has been granted in the previous judgement. To withdraw would be to allow Maeglin space to draw his blade; yet in his imbalance I had a fleeting opportunity to lift him from his feet. How, then, might I use this advantage to render him unable to assault us further? With the disparity in our strength and hardiness known, there was but one way: to cast him over the edge, even as he had sought to do to Earendil.

Judgement of Cirdan: Seeing as the combat itself has been deemed lawful, the death of one participant cannot be considered murder. The battle began at the instigation of Maeglin; it therefore behooved Tuor to bring it to an end by whatever means he might.

All charges having been heard, the trial was adjourned.

~~~~~

I apologise for taking you name in vain, Urwen; I needed a Maeglin partisan to present the case, and there kind of aren't any named. A name for the Maia of the Sun seems not inappropriate for a non-combatant member of the House of the Mole.

Obviously no such trial took place, and I'm pretty sure Galadriel, at least, was elsewhere at the time. But if it had, I think this is about how it would have shaken out.

The early charges were added by me - they're valid ones to make, even if Cirdan deems Tuor not guilty. I also didn't manage to work into Galadriel's rant the fact that Tuor was also considered a Prince of Gondolin, and so co-equal with Maeglin, rather than his inferior; she had another point she wanted to make.

hS

[Urwen]

All this talk of defense and murder got my mind running down certain pathways, and I just had to. So... this got a little long, I'm afraid.

~

The Trial of Tuor of Gondolin (House of the Wing)

For the Defense: Pengolodh of Gondolin (House of the Harp)
For the Prosecution: Urwen of Gondolin (House of the Mole)
Presiding: Cirdan, Lord of Balar, Steward to the High King

~~~~~

Charge the First: That in wedding Idril, and siring on her the child Earendil, Tuor did defy the laws of nature in joining the Elder and Younger children.

Witness for the prosecution - Celebrimbor of Nargothrond: The Eldar and the Edain were set apart even from the beginning; their fates in death are different. Yet, seeing as the marriage of the Eldar is deemed to last until the Last Days, saving that one partner choose to remain forever in the Halls of Awaiting, it is unright that a union should be formed that must needs be broken, all unwilling, on the death of the mortal spouse.

Witness for the defense - Elwing of Doriath: The Powers of Arda have expressed approval of such a union: that of Luthien of Doriath to Beren of Dorthonion. We may not suppose that the unique resolution of their case will by necessity be repeated; yet still we may presume that their acceptance applies to all such cases.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; the precedent applies.

~~~~~

Charge the Second: That in wedding Idril, Tuor did usurp the right of Maeglin, his elder in years and superior in the laws of the city, to her hand.

Witness for the prosecution - Eglamoth of Gondolin (House of the Heavenly Arch): Maeglin many a time presented his suit to Turgon the king, nor at any time was he told that he was forbidden further to pursue the hand of Idril.

Witness for the defense: Pengolodh of Gondolin: It has never been true that the hand of a maiden of the Noldor, even one of noble birth, lies with her father; the Eldar wed for love, not for rank and power. Nor has it ever been shown that two suitors may not compete for the same bride. Further, the wedding of Maeglin and Idril would have bound cousins of the first degree, which by long custom is forbidden among the Eldar.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; if there is fault, it lies in Turgon not informing Maeglin of the relevant custom forbidding the union.

~~~~~

Charge the Third: That in delving in secret a tunnel from the city of Gondolin towards the Cleft of Eagles, Tuor did defy the will of the High King, who forbade preparations for escape; and further, that in doing so without the aid of the House of the Mole, he did usurp the rights of Maeglin the Prince.

Witness for the prosecution - Idril of Gondolin (House of the King): It is true that the delvings were carried out in secret, to hide them from the eyes of Turgon and Maeglin both; and this was done by my advice.

Witness for the defense - Voronwe of Gondolin (House of the Wing): Tuor was sent to Gondolin by the Vala Ulmo, and charged with the preservation of its people against the wrack of Melkor; such charge from the Powers of Arda does override the command of the High King. The instruction to keep the delvings secret from Maeglin were given by Idril in her capacity as Seer, and it is presumed that such gifts of Foresight as she possesses are granted by said Powers. Indeed, such was shown when Turgon himself, led by vision from Ulmo, did remove himself from the authority of the High King his father, and prepare in secret the very city Gondolin.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; the precedent of Turgon applies.

~~~~~

Charge the Fourth: That in gathering about himself a body of armed men, and marking them with his symbol, Tuor did usurp the right of the king to determine the bearing of arms; and that in instructing the people of that city to obey Tuor should Turgon be slain, he did usurp the rights of Maeglin the Prince.

Witness for the prosecution - Enerdhil of Gondolin (House of the Hammer of Wrath): All the Houses of Gondolin were named as such by the king; and upon the slaying of his parents, Maeglin was proclaimed a Prince of the blood, and presumed by all to be King's Heir in Gondolin.

Witness for the defense - Hendor of Gondolin (House of the King): The assent of Turgon was sought before ever the House of the Wing was assembled, and under his command were they drawn up to the defense of the city alongside the other houses; and in the attempted slaying of Earendil, Maeglin did forefeit his rights as a prince.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty to the first part, by assent of Turgon. Guilty to the second part, for Maeglin's treachery had not yet become known; however, inasmuch as the visions of Idril forewarned of danger at Maeglin's hand, no sentence to be passed upon Tuor.

~~~~~

Charge the Fifth: That in assailing Maeglin during the battle in Gondolin, Tuor did unlawfully turn his hand against an ally and superior during a time of war; and that this does constitute treason against the City of Gondolin.

Witness for the prosecution - Urwen of Gondolin: As previously shown, Maeglin was proclaimed Prince of Gondolin. Those who hold command may ofttimes undertake actions which seem foolhardy or controversial to their followers, as Fingon's rescue of Maedhros, Finrod's stealth mission to Tol-in-Gaurhoth, &c. By attacking Maeglin when he had not openly disavowed his title as Prince, Tuor did act unlawfully and treacherously.

Witness for the defense - Galadriel of Doriath: Seldom do the Free Peoples war against each other or purpose to harm each other; yet when they do so it is the duty of all to stand against them. The Teleri of Alqualonde are lauded for their defense against House Feanor; the Leap of Beren Erchamion against Curufin is renowned; and the defense of Thingol against the treachery of Nogrod, though futile, is deemed righteous. In the same way, the assault of Maeglin upon Idril and Earendil must be viewed as forfeiture of his loyalty to them and to the city; and in that light was Tuor not only entitled but duty-bound to intervene on their behalf.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; all have the duty to protect innocents against kinslayers.

~~~~~

Charge the Sixth: That in casting Maeglin from the walls of Gondolin, Tuor did unfairly condemn him to death, this constituting murder most unlawful.

Witness for the prosecution - Galdor of Gondolin (House of the Tree): The right of life and death to the people of Gondolin lies in the hands of the king, except where appointed otherwise by him. So too, in Gondolin as elsewhere, the law that surrender offered by even the worst of enemies must be accepted. As it is told that Maeglin's arm was broken ere he was cast over the walls, it might be presumed that he would have given his surrender if offered the chance.

Witness for the defence - Tuor of Gondolin: In war a warrior must needs attempt to slay his foe; this has been so since the First Battle, when Denethor of the Nandor did fight to the death against the creatures of Morgoth. So too, though Maeglin had been disarmed of his dagger, he bore still the black sword Anguirel at his side; and, knowing the hardiness of the Elves, I had no cause to believe that a simple break of one arm would lead to his surrender. Recalling that I, a mortal Man, was far weaker in bodily strength than an Elda, I must needs end the battle swiftly, to ensure the protection of my house, as has been granted in the previous judgement. To withdraw would be to allow Maeglin space to draw his blade; yet in his imbalance I had a fleeting opportunity to lift him from his feet. How, then, might I use this advantage to render him unable to assault us further? With the disparity in our strength and hardiness known, there was but one way: to cast him over the edge, even as he had sought to do to Earendil.

Judgement of Cirdan: Seeing as the combat itself has been deemed lawful, the death of one participant cannot be considered murder. The battle began at the instigation of Maeglin; it therefore behooved Tuor to bring it to an end by whatever means he might.

All charges having been heard, the trial was adjourned.

~~~~~

I apologise for taking you name in vain, Urwen; I needed a Maeglin partisan to present the case, and there kind of aren't any named. A name for the Maia of the Sun seems not inappropriate for a non-combatant member of the House of the Mole.

Obviously no such trial took place, and I'm pretty sure Galadriel, at least, was elsewhere at the time. But if it had, I think this is about how it would have shaken out.

The early charges were added by me - they're valid ones to make, even if Cirdan deems Tuor not guilty. I also didn't manage to work into Galadriel's rant the fact that Tuor was also considered a Prince of Gondolin, and so co-equal with Maeglin, rather than his inferior; she had another point she wanted to make.

hS


I wonder if you could make a similar thing for the actual culprit, as per canon?

[Urwen]

Also, I couldn't help but write


And they won't call me one of their own
They will know me as nothing but a traitor
I will perish, though the fault is mine alone
They'll know me as Maeglin.

[Huinesoron]

I wonder if you could make a similar thing for the actual culprit, as per canon?

What, a Trial of Maeglin? Probably (though not today - that was a good hour's work!), but I'm not sure what defence there is for 'I tried to stab a small boy because I saw his dad coming to get me'.

Also, I couldn't help but write

And they won't call me one of their own
They will know me as nothing but a traitor
I will perish, though the fault is mine alone
They'll know me as Maeglin.

... are you filking Heather Dale, here? I'd assume not, she's pretty niche, but... if not, are you referencing something, or just writing poetry (which is fine!)?

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Maeglin was a rat. End of. No excuses, and he got what was coming to him.

He might - might - have betrayed Gondolin because he was tortured, but the whole infanticide-and-rape thing was on him, solely.

[Urwen]

What, a Trial of Maeglin? Probably (though not today - that was a good hour's work!), but I'm not sure what defence there is for 'I tried to stab a small boy because I saw his dad coming to get me'.



... are you filking Heather Dale, here? I'd assume not, she's pretty niche, but... if not, are you referencing something, or just writing poetry (which is fine!)?

hS


Yeah, I couldn't resist.

[Urwen]

Nonetheless, I am trying to change the subject here, and you keep tempting me not to with your responses. Well, I am ending that.


I'd appreciate if you give your answers to this question too.


Come to think of it, that is an interesting theme for next discussion. Do you think us in the modern world are reincarnations/descendants of Tolkinese characters? If so, whom do you think you are reincarnation/descendant of?

My answer is in my previous post.

[Urwen]

Also, I think Namo might have had hots for Feanor, pun intended.


Exhibit A: Namo doomed House of Feanor to die. Elves go to Halls of Mandos when they die.
Exhibit B: Feanor died first, before his body or his spirit could be corrupted by Morgoth. Namo wanted him alive.
Exhibit C: Feanor probably stayed there for a long time, maybe even forever, because Namo wanted to have him around for as long as possible.

[Galadriel55]

As to your first question, I couldn't say. I don't feel pulled to any one person or family more so than others. I would probably be a Man though - I don't feel particularly hobbitish or Dwarvish, and probably more Mannish than Elvish. Of course I could also be an orc, but I wouldn't reveal that now, would I? ;)

But as for the second post:

Also, I think Namo might have had hots for Feanor, pun intended.

Jokes being jokes, but seriously I think Namo had the least admiration and respect for Feanor among the Valar and possibly the Elves too. He's the kind that cuts through to the intent in the soul without being distracted by flashy achievements. And I don't think Mandos was very impressed with Feanor's soul - though he had a very powerful and charismatic character. Or maybe it was because of the combination of a powerful will force and a tendency for causing wreckage and making misguided choices that Mandos would not let him out.

Feanor is just waaay too easily ruled by passion. It's not always selfish, he suffers from it too, but it's often misdirected. He gets too heated and not heated enough, too attached and not attached at all. His creations end up meaning more to him than fellow people, and it's not something he intended or benefited from. Had his passion been channeled slightly differently things might not have gone the way they have.

[Galadriel55]

On an unrelated note, the Downs' activity is doing me a lot of good. Form's CbC posts inspired an out-of-order LOTR reread, now this thread inspired a COH reread. I haven't read any First Age stuff for years, it's high time! And Form, if you're reading this, thanks for taking us through in CbC style. It inspired some great discussion and rereads. I would rep you, but apparently I repped everyone who is currently active on the Downs too recently. :D

On another unrelated note, as I read the first pages of COH I realized that the Houses of Men married highborn people from other Houses. How much of it do you think is marriage for love, and how much is an obligation to marry into a certain status? Does politics have a role in the making of the marriages?

[Urwen]

On an unrelated note, the Downs' activity is doing me a lot of good. Form's CbC posts inspired an out-of-order LOTR reread, now this thread inspired a COH reread. I haven't read any First Age stuff for years, it's high time! And Form, if you're reading this, thanks for taking us through in CbC style. It inspired some great discussion and rereads. I would rep you, but apparently I repped everyone who is currently active on the Downs too recently. :D

On another unrelated note, as I read the first pages of COH I realized that the Houses of Men married highborn people from other Houses. How much of it do you think is marriage for love, and how much is an obligation to marry into a certain status? Does politics have a role in the making of the marriages?


Speaking of marriages, I think that had certain events not happened, we would have had five Elf/Man marriages, rather than the four we currently have.

[Huinesoron]

Come to think of it, that is an interesting theme for next discussion. Do you think us in the modern world are reincarnations/descendants of Tolkinese characters? If so, whom do you think you are reincarnation/descendant of?

My answer is in my previous post.

Well, obviously I'm a Noldo of Aman who journeyed with Finrod to Middle-earth, got killed in the Bragollach, and wound up coming back over here once I was let out of Mandos. :) That aside, while the canon allows for reincarnation of Dwarven kings (Durin, at least), and some versions allow for elves to be 'reborn in their children [read: descendents?]' rather than just rehoused, I feel like the most coherent version of Middle-earth canon don't include (non-Dwarvish) reincarnation.

As for descendents... let's play Middle-earth Genealogical Correlations!

Lining up the maps of Middle-earth and Europe has never been easy, but they generally place Gondor somewhere down on the Mediterranean, with Mordor falling in the mountainous regions around Romania and Serbia. If you want to claim descent from Aragorn, you'd better have Italian heritage! (Which, admittedly, most of Europe does, because Romans.) (It doesn't seem like the restored Arnor lasted long enough to make a significant impact on the local population makeup.)

The Misty Mountains probably fall somewhere in Germany (which, you'll note, is where Mirkwood - sorry, the Black Forest - is still found). If your ancestors are from east of there, they're Northmen - descendents of the ancestors of the Rohirrim, or the people of Dale. The Gondorians believed the Northmen were related to the Third House of the Edain. This, basically, is where blond/es come from. Some of their line wound up further south, on the north slopes of the White Mountains, as Rohan - it seems probable that this means the Alps, so you're looking at south Germany, Austria, Switzerland.

France, Spain, Portugal, and Britain are the homes of the Dunlendings and their kin - descendents of the Second House of the Edain. This is where the folk of Bree came from. In the former three areas this is still the dominant strain; in Britain it's been leavened with a good dose of invading Germans - Northmen. (I'm talking about the Anglo-Saxons here, not anything more recent.)

The Sea of Rhun seems to fall somewhere in western Russia; that means anyone east of there is from Sauron's old domains in the east (usually just called Rhun). Khand would be Turkey and points south/eastward, and Harad would be Africa. (Pretty obvious, but for completeness.)

For the non-Mannish races... you'd expect Dwarvish heritage, if any, to crop up from Germany (the Misty Mountains) to the Baltic (the Iron Hills), with a possible outcrop in Ireland (the Blue Mountains). But you wouldn't see much of it - they keep to themselves, and there's no hints at any interbreeding.

Elvish heritage, at least more recent than Aragorn, would likely come from Mirkwood. That means Germany again. There's a brief period when you might get elvish mingling in Ireland (Mithlond), but it's not very likely.

Orcs? We know it's possible; Saruman seems to have bred them. You'd be tempted to look down in Mordor, but it seems probably the liberated slaves would have got quite the taboo in place about that. More likely, maybe, is Germany again, reaching up into Scandinavia and the Grey Mountains.

And Hobbits? Well, we know where they live - "the North-West of the Old World, east of the Sea". That's Britain.

What does this mean for me, personally? It means I'm probably of mixed Northman/Breefolk descent; there's no real indications of Roman-Gondorian in my family tree. There could be a Hobbitish strain somewhere - I have fuzzy feet, and at least I'm not tall - but nothing more exotic. My most notable ancestor would probably be Vidugavia, King of Rhovanion (T.A. 1250); his line led to the kings of Rohan, and a royal line that long is liable to worm its way into every family tree eventually.

On an unrelated note, the Downs' activity is doing me a lot of good. Form's CbC posts inspired an out-of-order LOTR reread, now this thread inspired a COH reread. I haven't read any First Age stuff for years, it's high time! And Form, if you're reading this, thanks for taking us through in CbC style. It inspired some great discussion and rereads. I would rep you, but apparently I repped everyone who is currently active on the Downs too recently. :D

I agree! I've been pulling books down left right and centre, it's been great. :)

On another unrelated note, as I read the first pages of COH I realized that the Houses of Men married highborn people from other Houses. How much of it do you think is marriage for love, and how much is an obligation to marry into a certain status? Does politics have a role in the making of the marriages?

It wouldn't surprise me in the least. We know the elves didn't do political marriages, but even among the Men closest to them, that doesn't necessarily hold true.

On the flip side, it's noted that Hurin and Huor were raised in Brethil, so apparently there's a whole fostering system going on behind the scenes. It's quite likely that marriage to members of the house which fostered you is encouraged, even if not required. (Morwen and Rian seem likely to have ended up fostered by Galdor; they would actually have met their future husbands when the evacuation of Dorthonion passed through Brethil, then re-met them when they returned from Gondolin. I imagine a certain level of 'haven't we done this before?', as the foster-daughters of the House head out to greet the ones returning unlooked-for from war...)

But on the flip-flip-side... there are six Lords among the Three Houses for whom we can positively state the heritage of their wives; Malach married one of his own people, and Barahir (who was never meant to rule) did too (though Emeldir was a granddaughter of the House of Hador). The other four - Galdor, Hurin, Haldir, and Handir - all married someone from another House. That's pretty long odds if it wasn't at least partly arranged.

On the flip-flip-flip-side, how easy is it for the child of an absolute ruler to find a spouse among their subjects? There's going to be a lot of unhealthy power dynamics at play if they try.

Speaking of marriages, I think that had certain events not happened, we would have had five Elf/Man marriages, rather than the four we currently have.

Aegnor and Andreth? (I see you're still not counting Dior and Nimloth... ^_^)

hS

[Urwen]

No, I meant Turin and Nellas.

[Urwen]

And if we go with Regions alone, I am probably affiliated with Mordor.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Urwen View Post
Come to think of it, that is an interesting theme for next discussion. Do you think us in the modern world are reincarnations/descendants of Tolkinese characters? If so, whom do you think you are reincarnation/descendant of?

Starting all the way back with some geocities website, every, single test I've ever taken on the subject of "What kind of Tolkien character are you?" has given me the result of:

Dwarf

[Huinesoron]

And if we go with Regions alone, I am probably affiliated with Mordor.

Ah, a descendent of the slaves of Nurn! Held captive by Sauron for centuries or more, freed by King Elessar and given the rule of the land. Not an ignoble heritage at all.

No, I meant Turin and Nellas.

Or Turin and Finduilas? He certainly seems to have had a way with elven maidens...

My memory is that he never really noticed Nellas once he was out of childhood, and she wasn't the sort to put herself forward (so to speak). Finduilas, on the other hand, wasn't afraid of expressing herself, and I think Turin felt the same way. If he hadn't been simultaneously too spooked by the thought of Morgoth finding out his name, and obsessed with breaking Nargothrond's very effective cover of secrecy, they could have hit it off very well. Imagine the meeting in the Havens not just of Elwing and Earendil, but of... let's say Edheladan, son of Turin and nephew to the High King (if we take Gil-Galad as son of Orodreth). Exciting!

hS

[Galadriel55]

No, I meant Turin and Nellas.

I thought you were talking about Finduilas. *shrugs* There are many possibilities if things didn't happen the way they did.

If we go geographically, I am a daughter of Rhun. With some ancestry from south of Khand.
Mind you, most Eurasians by descent have at least some ancestry from the far Eastern Rhun, thanks ro Ghengis.

[Urwen]

Ah, a descendent of the slaves of Nurn! Held captive by Sauron for centuries or more, freed by King Elessar and given the rule of the land. Not an ignoble heritage at all.



Or Turin and Finduilas? He certainly seems to have had a way with elven maidens...

My memory is that he never really noticed Nellas once he was out of childhood, and she wasn't the sort to put herself forward (so to speak). Finduilas, on the other hand, wasn't afraid of expressing herself, and I think Turin felt the same way. If he hadn't been simultaneously too spooked by the thought of Morgoth finding out his name, and obsessed with breaking Nargothrond's very effective cover of secrecy, they could have hit it off very well. Imagine the meeting in the Havens not just of Elwing and Earendil, but of... let's say Edheladan, son of Turin and nephew to the High King (if we take Gil-Galad as son of Orodreth). Exciting!

hS


I wouldn't oppose either of those couples.


It would be interesting for sure. Turin, heir of Nargothrond, via marriage. Tuor, heir of Gondolin, via marriage. And Beren, heir of Doriath, via marriage.


All three of big mortal heroes of Silm could have inherited each of the three greatest Elven realms at the time, if it weren't for that pesky Curse of Morgoth. How sad....

[Huinesoron]

I wouldn't oppose either of those couples.


It would be interesting for sure. Turin, heir of Nargothrond, via marriage. Tuor, heir of Gondolin, via marriage. And Beren, heir of Doriath, via marriage.


All three of big mortal heroes of Silm could have inherited each of the three greatest Elven realms at the time, if it weren't for that pesky Curse of Morgoth. How sad....

... and in at least two of those cases, their wives would be the power behind the throne.

Oh, Tuor might look all strong and tough, but Idril is a Seer; you know she's going to be calling the shots. And Luthien - well, would you argue with her?!

I'm not sure about Turin and Finduilas; someone who's read The Children of Hurin more recently than me would probably have a better grasp on her. But Turin is kind of a terrible leader in the long term (see: literally everywhere he goes), so I'd hope he'd at least listen to what the woman who's been living there 400+ years has to say.

hS

[Urwen]

... and in at least two of those cases, their wives would be the power behind the throne.

Oh, Tuor might look all strong and tough, but Idril is a Seer; you know she's going to be calling the shots. And Luthien - well, would you argue with her?!

I'm not sure about Turin and Finduilas; someone who's read The Children of Hurin more recently than me would probably have a better grasp on her. But Turin is kind of a terrible leader in the long term (see: literally everywhere he goes), so I'd hope he'd at least listen to what the woman who's been living there 400+ years has to say.

hS


That's the idea.



I believe that the Curse is responsible for his actions, rather than the other way around.

[Huinesoron]

I believe that the Curse is responsible for his actions, rather than the other way around.

If the Curse is the sole reason for Turin's misfortune, then he would never have left Doriath, so you'd be back to Nellas.

I see Turin's path as one of bad decisions which other people might get lucky and avoid the consequences of, but which he will always be hit by. A prisoner who wakes up to find someone leaning over them with a sword might attack, or might recognise that the Orcs wouldn't kill them quietly in the night; only for Turin would the attack always be both successful and lethal. A new Captain of Nargothrond might take the city on an all-out attack, or might trust in the secrecy that has served it so well; only for Turin would breaking that secrecy necessarily lead to total destruction. &c &c.

But when Turin makes decent decisions, things don't go wrong. Rescuing Nienor was a good decision, and led to a period of peace (one of the few he had). Even marrying her didn't actually lead to any negative consequences, though it potentially would have later on. Attacking Glaurung was extraordinarily successful - but then he decided to approach and taunt a mind-controlling Worm that wasn't actually dead, to recover an actually Cursed sword. That led directly to his death, Nienor's, and that of the Lord of the Haladin.

hS

[Galadriel55]

If the Curse is the sole reason for Turin's misfortune, then he would never have left Doriath, so you'd be back to Nellas.

I see Turin's path as one of bad decisions which other people might get lucky and avoid the consequences of, but which he will always be hit by. A prisoner who wakes up to find someone leaning over them with a sword might attack, or might recognise that the Orcs wouldn't kill them quietly in the night; only for Turin would the attack always be both successful and lethal. A new Captain of Nargothrond might take the city on an all-out attack, or might trust in the secrecy that has served it so well; only for Turin would breaking that secrecy necessarily lead to total destruction. &c &c.

But when Turin makes decent decisions, things don't go wrong. Rescuing Nienor was a good decision, and led to a period of peace (one of the few he had). Even marrying her didn't actually lead to any negative consequences, though it potentially would have later on. Attacking Glaurung was extraordinarily successful - but then he decided to approach and taunt a mind-controlling Worm that wasn't actually dead, to recover an actually Cursed sword. That led directly to his death, Nienor's, and that of the Lord of the Haladin.

hS

I agree very much with your interpretation of the Curse, but I would argue that there is no good choice for Turin - or very few. He tries to save a woman from rape (good, right?), ends up killing his captain (maybe not much of a loss, but still bad). He rescues Niniel (good, who would leave a woman in that state?), but marries his sister (bad! - and she would have remembered anyways when Glaurung died, regardless of how he died, I think that's implied in the text).

I think Turin's fate is also in part due to his inability to keep his head down; he cannot be a lesser man than he is. He tries to start fresh time and time again, but he cannot be less than what he can. Did he have a position or an honour that he didn't deserve? No. He really deserved all, he was that good, and he couldn't suppress the effort in himself. All he had to do was be second best, settle down, let someone else make the calls. But he had to fight to his full potential, had to live to his full potential, take charge of his own life - Master his Fate, be the one who makes the calls of his life rather than letting it flow where it would by the choices of other men. Only with the Curse, as you said, do all your efforts - which are good efforts! - turn everything around them sour. Turin's choices and behaviours aren't always great, but they often make a lot of sense in the context of what he knows. There are many other people who also aren't your perfect goody-two-shoes, but no one is as unlucky as Turin.



I'll tell you about Finduilas when I get to that chapter in COH. :)

[Huinesoron]

I agree very much with your interpretation of the Curse, but I would argue that there is no good choice for Turin - or very few. He tries to save a woman from rape (good, right?), ends up killing his captain (maybe not much of a loss, but still bad). He rescues Niniel (good, who would leave a woman in that state?), but marries his sister (bad! - and she would have remembered anyways when Glaurung died, regardless of how he died, I think that's implied in the text).

I deliberately didn't talk about his bandits, because... well... he made the decision to throw in with a group of outlaws. And that's not outlaw like 'Beren was an outlaw, being hunted by the local power, namely Sauron' - it's outlaw like 'let's rob, rape, and ruin the local humans for our own benefit'. Remember their response to Mim, which is to shoot (to kill!) at him and his sons, then take over their house? It's nice that he tried to lead them away from that, but the whole thing was one long string of bad decisions. (The wiki also suggests that Turin wouldn't have killed Forweg had he known it was him, so, y'know, don't give him too much credit.)

As for Niniel... when someone comes to you with literally no memory of anything, and you take personal care of them in restoring them to adult functioning, it seems pretty obvious that they're going to effectively imprint on you. I'm not sure how much this is the case (the wiki pretty much claims the women of Brethil + Brandir were responsible for her care), but if it is, asking someone who's that dependent on you to marry you is actually kinda skeevy.

But yes: Turin's decisions surrounding Nienor were actually good, knowing what he knew. Had he not gotten himself knocked out, he could have faced real consequences that weren't his fault...

... because they were his sister's. She's under Morgoth's curse too, and her mind-wiping came about because she tried to take on a dragon face to face. That was her bad decision.

I think Turin's fate is also in part due to his inability to keep his head down; he cannot be a lesser man than he is. He tries to start fresh time and time again, but he cannot be less than what he can. Did he have a position or an honour that he didn't deserve? No. He really deserved all, he was that good, and he couldn't suppress the effort in himself. All he had to do was be second best, settle down, let someone else make the calls. But he had to fight to his full potential, had to live to his full potential, take charge of his own life - Master his Fate, be the one who makes the calls of his life rather than letting it flow where it would by the choices of other men. Only with the Curse, as you said, do all your efforts - which are good efforts! - turn everything around them sour. Turin's choices and behaviours aren't always great, but they often make a lot of sense in the context of what he knows. There are many other people who also aren't your perfect goody-two-shoes, but no one is as unlucky as Turin.

I'm not sure I agree. Turin was great at getting people to follow him, but abysmally terrible at choosing where to lead them. The outlaws died because Turin led them to camp with someone who utterly hated them; Nargothrond died because he preferred open battle to stealth. The one time people refused to follow him, his attack on Glaurung was 100% successful.

A charismatic, brave, and strong leader who leads you into disaster every time sounds like one of the worst things you could have, actually.

hS

[Urwen]

If time-travel existed in Middle Earth, so many issues could be fixed and many characters would have a happy ending.


Come to think of it, will the Valar allow their family to exist again? He is their chosen champion, the one who would destroy Morgoth once and for all during the final battle of the world. Surely they would allow his family to live together with him as his reward for getting rid of the No.1 Enemy of Arda?

[Urwen]

It would be a nice dramedy: The Curse of CoH. I can see it now.....


Curse of Children of Hurin


MORGOTH:
He started it! He questioned my authority!


ERU:
So you saw fit to curse not only him, but his entire family.


MORGOTH:
It seemed like a good idea at a time...


ERU:
Everything seems like a good idea at a time to you. Including destroying the very creations your brothers and sisters put their hearts and minds into...


HURIN:
Yeah, what do you have to say for yourself, Morgy?


MORGOTH:
You and your family deserved it, you insolent cur. And don't call me 'Morgy' ever again!




Did you enjoy my little teaser.....?

[Galadriel55]

As for Niniel... when someone comes to you with literally no memory of anything, and you take personal care of them in restoring them to adult functioning, it seems pretty obvious that they're going to effectively imprint on you. I'm not sure how much this is the case (the wiki pretty much claims the women of Brethil + Brandir were responsible for her care), but if it is, asking someone who's that dependent on you to marry you is actually kinda skeevy.

But yes: Turin's decisions surrounding Nienor were actually good, knowing what he knew. Had he not gotten himself knocked out, he could have faced real consequences that weren't his fault...

... because they were his sister's. She's under Morgoth's curse too, and her mind-wiping came about because she tried to take on a dragon face to face. That was her bad decision.

Well, I guess you could say that it takes two to make a bad marriage... ;)


I'm not sure I agree. Turin was great at getting people to follow him, but abysmally terrible at choosing where to lead them. The outlaws died because Turin led them to camp with someone who utterly hated them; Nargothrond died because he preferred open battle to stealth. The one time people refused to follow him, his attack on Glaurung was 100% successful.

A charismatic, brave, and strong leader who leads you into disaster every time sounds like one of the worst things you could have, actually.

Again, though, you are judging the decisions by the result. Oh course, if we know ahead of time that the result will be bad, we won't make that choice. Try making those choices in Turin's place knowing what he knows and not what you know.

Let me give you a couple examples of alternative histories. Nargothrond continues its policy of secrecy, doesn't stick its head out. Doriath falls, Gondolin falls, eventually Morgoth concentrates his forces on Nargothrond which eventually also falls, and so what was the point of its existence? To prolong the suffering? Or to make an actual change in the war against Morgoth? Or how about this. The battle at Tumhalad goes somewhat differently; Glaurung is defeated at Nargothrond; Elves and Men rally to Nargothrond; their forces grow and push back Morgoth and the Easterlings, perhaps liberating Hithlum, perhaps Dorthonion, perhaps even beyond - who knows, perhaps knocking on his very door.

We as readers tend to judge events based on the outcome, and with the knowledge that Morgoth cannot be defeated with local efforts; we are too focused on the necessity Earendil and the forces of the Valar. But Turin doesn't know about Earendil. No one knows about Earendil. Earendil himself doesn't know about his importance. So I maintain that we allow for multiple possible outcomes for Turin's decisions.

I guess the big problem specifically with Nargothrond was that there ended up a Man, with Mannish ambitions, leading a group of Elves, with Elvish thinking. Turin was not the only Man in the surrounding events who would choose risk over comfort so as to be able to share in the struggles of their homeland and make an impact against Morgoth. An Elf might have infinite patience and possibly an idea that eventually things might be different; and Elf might hope to outlive Morgoth at least until the tides turn. A Man must make his impact when he can, and the Elvish secrecy naturally seems like strength wasted unless you know what you're saving the strength for. We see the thought of fighting while you can in wiser Men than Turin, and the idea makes sense. Elves hope for a distant future, Men rely on themselves to shape that future. Maybe it's not a good idea to mix the two in the first place. Maybe Nargothrond is not the best place to enact this desire. Maybe Turin has too concentrated a theme of making his own fate. But I cannot call it an absolutely bad idea. I mean, with the same logic we should call the Nirnaeth a terrible idea and name Maedhros a terrible strategist. A Battle that meant to succeed, and had all the potential to succeed (assuming we don't look ahead to Earendil etc) - but we judge it by its failure rather than its potential. Maedhros had a reason to act as he did, and so did all the participants. Judging decisions by their outcomes only works when you already know the outcome; I am looking at the decision process a priori, so to speak.


Edit: crossed with Urwen. It's a busy thread! :D

[Huinesoron]

If time-travel existed in Middle Earth, so many issues could be fixed and many characters would have a happy ending.

If time travel existed in Middle-earth, Melkor would have done even more horrible things while the Valar hesitated over the advisability of them.

Come to think of it, will the Valar allow their family to exist again? He is their chosen champion, the one who would destroy Morgoth once and for all during the final battle of the world. Surely they would allow his family to live together with him as his reward for getting rid of the No.1 Enemy of Arda?

Out of their jurisdiction. Resurrecting Beren and granting Luthien the Gift of Men was a decision of Iluvatar, not of Mandos or even Manwe, and came about specifically because the Doomsman couldn't change those fates. Since the House of Hurin are all headed to the same place, Luthien's plea doesn't apply; they can all go on to whatever awaits Men together.

But that's a good thing! The Gift of Men is just that - a gift. They're not going into oblivion, but to something that the Elves, the Valar, and the One consider to be better than lingering in Arda. The desire to stay over-long is a corruption of Melkor, and was the downfall of Numenor.

Though, to be kind, we might imagine that the kids got to hang about in Mandos until their parents showed up. It was only a couple of years, and they probably needed the counselling time! That way they can all head out into the unknown, together at last for the first time.

(For Lalaith, we might need to invoke the old idea of children being set apart in some way, and permitted to wait until their parents arrive to bear them onwards; or else she can greet them Outside and show them around as their own personal Sun.)

hS

[Urwen]

No comments about my little teaser? :(

[Galadriel55]

If time-travel existed in Middle Earth, so many issues could be fixed and many characters would have a happy ending.


Come to think of it, will the Valar allow their family to exist again? He is their chosen champion, the one who would destroy Morgoth once and for all during the final battle of the world. Surely they would allow his family to live together with him as his reward for getting rid of the No.1 Enemy of Arda?

I almost wonder if Turin is the one to finally defeat Morgoth because he has the most hate and rage against the guy. Was there anyone else that Morgoth messed up as badly? Who hated him as much?

I like to imagine Turin defeating him not so much by his strength as by the power of his fury and his despair, finally turned directly against the cause of his misery and enemy he has tried to oppose all his life...

[Huinesoron]

No comments about my little teaser? :(

So, so much cross-posting... :eek: I assume this is The Trial Of Morgoth, Or, What We Did In The Hereafter?

hS

[Galadriel55]

No comments about my little teaser? :(

Honestly, I think Hurin already stood Morgoth up enough in life. Morgoth wasn't used to being held in such contempt to his face. That takes a lot of guts. Hurin already did the most badass thing a man could do, and there's little Eru could add to shame Morgoth more than Hurin's calm and stubbornness.

But if you write a continuation, I would like to read it. :)

[Urwen]

So, so much cross-posting... :eek: I assume this is The Trial Of Morgoth, Or, What We Did In The Hereafter?

hS


You could call it that.


And G55, I am already writing the continuation.

[Galadriel55]

So, so much cross-posting... :eek:

I know! It's crazy! I love it! (but also struggle to keep up occasionally)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I almost wonder if Turin is the one to finally defeat Morgoth because he has the most hate and rage against the guy. Was there anyone else that Morgoth messed up as badly? Who hated him as much?

I like to imagine Turin defeating him not so much by his strength as by the power of his fury and his despair, finally turned directly against the cause of his misery and enemy he has tried to oppose all his life...

Yesssss! Feel the hatred! Let it flow through you, and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete!

[Galadriel55]

Yesssss! Feel the hatred! Let it flow through you, and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete!

Hahaha!!!! :D

But can you imagine Turin killing Morgoth out of patience and forgiveness? :p

[Urwen]

Two things just occurred to me.


1. Eol would have a hand in Morgoth's final death. He, after all, made the very sword that would kill Morgoth in the end.
2. I think Grima and Maeglin are more similar than Gollum and Maeglin, as both are evil chancellors who betrayed their King.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And both were bribed with the promise of an (unwilling) princess

[Urwen]

Here are the couple of tales I wrote for Silm: https://archiveofourown.org/users/CrystalNavy/works?fandom_id=230931

[Galadriel55]

2. I think Grima and Maeglin are more similar than Gollum and Maeglin, as both are evil chancellors who betrayed their King.

And both were bribed with the promise of an (unwilling) princess

That's true. But we don't know much about how Grima came to be who he was, as opposed to the other two whose journey to the "dark side" is well described. Do we know how Grima came to his high position, and to his betrayal? Presumably Grima had to get in contact with Saruman before he set Eowyn as the price for his betrayal. Likewise for Maeglin - but we know more of that story.


Here are the couple of tales I wrote for Silm: https://archiveofourown.org/users/CrystalNavy/works?fandom_id=230931

Will read! Thanks for sharing!

[Urwen]

That's true. But we don't know much about how Grima came to be who he was, as opposed to the other two whose journey to the "dark side" is well described. Do we know how Grima came to his high position, and to his betrayal? Presumably Grima had to get in contact with Saruman before he set Eowyn as the price for his betrayal. Likewise for Maeglin - but we know more of that story.



I think it happened in the similar. Imagine someone who got a short end of the stick. Imagine there was only one person who had really shown them kindness. You get the picture.

[Galadriel55]

I think it happened in the similar. Imagine someone who got a short end of the stick. Imagine there was only one person who had really shown them kindness. You get the picture.

I don't know. I can imagine several possibilities for why Grima ended up serving Saruman. I don't think he got served the short end of the stick; my understanding was that he became disliked after he openly started manipulating Theoden not to the benefit of the country (though not openly enough that his direct connection with Saruman was guessed).

[Urwen]

I am talking about how their lust came to be.

[Galadriel55]

I am talking about how their lust came to be.

Ah, gotcha. But still. I don't think Eowyn would have shown Grima much kindness after he started manipulating Theoden. She would have been courteous to him before like she would to all the people in their house, as hostess. But Grima wasn't the same lonely confused socially awkward "teenager" that Maeglin was when he came to Gondolin. Maeglin got to where he was by birth; Grima, having no blood ties to the King that we know of, would have to rise by merit. He would have had to be liked and supported by the King, and initially also by all the other people around the King. He would have to influence all of them, which requires significant social skill - that which Maeglin lacked. So I would not put them on the same conveyor belt on this point.

[Urwen]

It's like a reverse-Hamlet.

[Galadriel55]

It's like a reverse-Hamlet.

The evil nephew marrying too close a relative and betraying the rightful king? ;)

[Urwen]

The evil nephew marrying too close a relative and betraying the rightful king? ;)


Except that said marriage never actually happened.

[Galadriel55]

Except that said marriage never actually happened.

A What If tangent: what if it did happen? Could it ever have happened?

Idril wasn't willing to marry Maeglin, so even if Turgon gave the ok and even pressured Idril to accept her cousin, she may not have agreed unless there was something else at stake. Would Maeglin do what his father had done - kidnap Idril and hold her captive somewhere against her will?

[Urwen]

Well, according to Silmarillion, it was 'an evil fruit of Kinslaying'.

Furthermore, there was an instance of first cousins marrying one another: that of Phary and Miriel, where he forced her to marry him against her will, and took the throne that should have been hers in the first place, in accordance with Aldarion's law. And we know how that one ended.

I suspect that, had Maeglin's plan succeeded, both he and Idril would have ended up in the exact same way, sooner or later. The doom of the Noldor would have seen to that, just as Phary's own greed had doomed Numenor and Miriel herself.

In a way, Tuor's actions had spared them from such a fate, even if one of them had to become a sacrifice to save them both.

[Huinesoron]

A What If tangent: what if it did happen? Could it ever have happened?

Idril wasn't willing to marry Maeglin, so even if Turgon gave the ok and even pressured Idril to accept her cousin, she may not have agreed unless there was something else at stake. Would Maeglin do what his father had done - kidnap Idril and hold her captive somewhere against her will?

That depends when Tolkien wrote it. I'm pretty sure the early versions of Aredhel's story have her being, as you said, kidnapped and forced into marriage. But the rapiness of that story clearly made Tolkien deeply uncomfortable, so he softened it in later versions; by the time of the published Silm, we get 'it is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling', and the implication that while Eol may have pressured her, she ultimately made the decision to marry him herself. (It's still pretty rapey, because the power dynamics in that scenario are totally messed-up, but it's... arguably a bit better?)

Early Maeglin - call him Meglin - could have easily followed his father's example. He's said to have tunnelled clear out of the Echoriath, entirely deliberately; so there's room for a hypothetical world where he straight up kidnapped Idril and dragged her off to Nan Elmoth (probably you'd trigger that by altering the events of his parents' death slightly, maybe simply by having Eol deliberately kill Aredhel rather than trying to take out Meglin). But later Maeglin doesn't have the same example. He could still, hypothetically, kidnap Idril, but he has to know that she'd never give in the way his mother did.

... unless, of course, he lied to her. We know that Maeglin spent a lot of time whispering in Thingol's ear, persuading him first to arm Gondolin, and then to disarm it. What if instead he turned his persuasion on Idril - not to try and make her love him, but to convince her that Gondolin was under imminent threat? That would tie into her visions and premonitions, and if this takes place before Tuor, there's no Earendil for her to foresee Maeglin killing.

So perhaps we end up with Idril and Maeglin constructing the Way of Escape. She doesn't like him, you understand, but he sees the same threat - and he is the city's Master Miner. They get it built, all the way to the mountains...

... and then Maeglin drugs Idril up to the eyeballs and carries her off.

She wakes up in the mines, where Maeglin spins her a tale of Gondolin in flames. He keeps her drugged-up on hallucinogens, so that she starts to see - and thinks she's Seen - the things he's telling her about. They're the only two left, he tells her - but luckily, he knows a place they can flee too...

Once secured in Nan Elmoth, would Idril eventually have given in? Possibly - but I think it more likely that she would have Seen the truth and made her own escape (to Doriath, perhaps?). Heck, if we want to get really convoluted, what if she reaches Menegroth around the time that a certain mortal boy named Turin is coming to manhood? She knew his father, so they have a connection...

... I suspect that's the first time anyone has ever justified a Turin/Idril 'ship.

hS

[Urwen]

Just reposting this so that it is seen too....


Well, according to Silmarillion, it was 'an evil fruit of Kinslaying'.

Furthermore, there was an instance of first cousins marrying one another: that of Phary and Miriel, where he forced her to marry him against her will, and took the throne that should have been hers in the first place, in accordance with Aldarion's law. And we know how that one ended.

I suspect that, had Maeglin's plan succeeded, both he and Idril would have ended up in the exact same way, sooner or later. The doom of the Noldor would have seen to that, just as Phary's own greed had doomed Numenor and Miriel herself.

In a way, Tuor's actions had spared them from such a fate, even if one of them had to become a sacrifice to save them both.

[Huinesoron]

Just reposting this so that it is seen too....

Now do I repost mine so that it's seen under yours which needs to be seen under mine which was seen under yours...? ;)

It's interesting that the Ar-Pharazon story actually went through the exact same change as the Aredhel one, but in reverse! In the original account(s), Miriel was perfectly happy to marry her cousin; there's even an Elendil-aligned character who she breaks off with to do so. The forced marriage is a later conception of Tolkien's, to make her more sympathetic.

The Doom of the Noldor may or may not cover Maeglin (he's only half-Noldo, after all), but should definitely include Idril. Except... it kind of didn't, because as far as we know, she got to cheerfully sail back to Valinor and hang out with her now-immortal husband. Perhaps Seers get a free pass?

(Of course, in later Ages, Galadriel managed to figure out the loophole in the Doom. "To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well"? Ah, but if we just go and take over - pardon me, generously agree to rule - someone else's kingdom, we won't have begun anything... :D

hS

[Urwen]

Now do I repost mine so that it's seen under yours which needs to be seen under mine which was seen under yours...? ;)

It's interesting that the Ar-Pharazon story actually went through the exact same change as the Aredhel one, but in reverse! In the original account(s), Miriel was perfectly happy to marry her cousin; there's even an Elendil-aligned character who she breaks off with to do so. The forced marriage is a later conception of Tolkien's, to make her more sympathetic.

The Doom of the Noldor may or may not cover Maeglin (he's only half-Noldo, after all), but should definitely include Idril. Except... it kind of didn't, because as far as we know, she got to cheerfully sail back to Valinor and hang out with her now-immortal husband. Perhaps Seers get a free pass?

(Of course, in later Ages, Galadriel managed to figure out the loophole in the Doom. "To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well"? Ah, but if we just go and take over - pardon me, generously agree to rule - someone else's kingdom, we won't have begun anything... :D

hS


Well, G55 asked me, not you, so yeah. :p


Your Turin/Idril ship idea is kewl, though....

[Huinesoron]

Well, G55 asked me, not you, so yeah. :p

Oops, sorry - I figured the thread was for anyone to jump into. I'm still learning the etiquette around here.

hS

[Urwen]

Could Maeglin be considered a hero in any capacity?

[Galadriel55]

Well, G55 asked me, not you, so yeah. :p

Well, I posed the question to the public in general, and I'm happy to hear all the "what if" spin-offs.

Could Maeglin be considered a hero in any capacity?

If Macbeth can be considered a tragic hero, Maeglin probably can.

The way the story goes, there is not much sympathy for Maeglin after his initial introduction to Gondolin. It's easy to sympathize with him before that point, but afterwards he leans over to the antagonist side: the haughty prince who speaks down to Hurin and Huor, the weirdo who fantasizes about his cousin, the selfish one who can't get his priorities straight. It's hard to conceptualize him as a hero, even if the story was retold in a more sympathetic light, but he is an antihero - the big character who drives the story, though not somebody one would want to follow or emulate.

[Urwen]

Do you believe that Tuor saved Maeglin (and Idril) from worse fate by doing what he did?

[Galadriel55]

Do you believe that Tuor saved Maeglin (and Idril) from worse fate by doing what he did?

Are you referring to him marrying Idril or killing Maeglin? Or something else?

To be honest, I don't think Tuor saved Maeglin. Yes, things might have happened differently if he didn't do this or say that, but on the whole I don't think redirecting events alone qualifies as saving in that sense. Maeglin needed saving from himself, and if anything Tuor made his cloud darker and pushed him to the point of no return. It's possible that, like Grima in the Shire, he might have experienced a time when he would be able to come back again, but he didn't live to see such a time, so we'll never know.

Perhaps I'm not very objective here because I don't like Tuor very much, but I would not credit him with saving Maeglin. :p

[Urwen]

Are you referring to him marrying Idril or killing Maeglin? Or something else?

To be honest, I don't think Tuor saved Maeglin. Yes, things might have happened differently if he didn't do this or say that, but on the whole I don't think redirecting events alone qualifies as saving in that sense. Maeglin needed saving from himself, and if anything Tuor made his cloud darker and pushed him to the point of no return. It's possible that, like Grima in the Shire, he might have experienced a time when he would be able to come back again, but he didn't live to see such a time, so we'll never know.

Perhaps I'm not very objective here because I don't like Tuor very much, but I would not credit him with saving Maeglin. :p


I don't mean in that sense. I meant in 'kill the hroa to save the fea' sense.

[Galadriel55]

I don't mean in that sense. I meant in 'kill the hroa to save the fea' sense.

That's exactly what I meant. Tuor didn't save Maeglin from Maeglin, he didn't save his soul or his fea. He mighr have saved the hroa from having to do all the things the fea planned, but the fea was there already.

I just wasn't sure which act you were referring to by "what he did".

[Urwen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKo1krB6OJw

[Urwen]

I found it funny that there is no mention of Tuor mistrusting Meglin until Idril brought it up. I think he was whipped.

[Urwen]

Also.....


http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=715286#post715286


Behold the continuation!

[Huinesoron]

I found it funny that there is no mention of Tuor mistrusting Meglin until Idril brought it up. I think he was whipped.

o.O I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'whipped', but it seems that trusting a bona fide Seer when she says someone isn't trustworthy is the only sensible course.

hS

[Urwen]

Don't you know? 'Whipped' is a slang for someone dominated by their wife.


Also, did you like the continuation?

[Huinesoron]

Don't you know? 'Whipped' is a slang for someone dominated by their wife.

Oh. That sounds like a pretty negative way of describing listening to and trusting someone you love who is far wiser than yourself.

Also, did you like the continuation?

Haven't read it yet; sadly I have to go do other things sometimes. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Please do read it as soon as you're able to. Trust me, you won't regret doing so.

[Urwen]

What if Maeglin (and everyone else for that matter) was a puppy?

[Galadriel55]

Question for everyone: how on earth did Morgoth not realize that Gondolin must be in the one patch of land he can't get to?

We're told that before the Bragollach and Nirnaeth his spies couldn't pass beyond the borders of some elven territories, so it's possible that Gondolin lay somewhere beyond - but that wouldn't make much sense since Turgon was known to have a separate kingdom, and one that none of the other Elves knew about. On the other hand, there's this patch of mountains, that spies can't get through either because of the Eagles and other things. After the Nirnaeth it should have been obvious; the only question would be a suitable entrance. Morgoth really shouldn't have needed Hurin to unwittingly give away the general location. He should have known that already.

[Urwen]

I think he did realize, but he couldn't do anything about it (at least not till a certain someone *cough*m[a]eglin*cough* told him how to bypass that problem)

[Urwen]

Click me, please..... (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19317)

[Huinesoron]

Question for everyone: how on earth did Morgoth not realize that Gondolin must be in the one patch of land he can't get to?

We're told that before the Bragollach and Nirnaeth his spies couldn't pass beyond the borders of some elven territories, so it's possible that Gondolin lay somewhere beyond - but that wouldn't make much sense since Turgon was known to have a separate kingdom, and one that none of the other Elves knew about. On the other hand, there's this patch of mountains, that spies can't get through either because of the Eagles and other things. After the Nirnaeth it should have been obvious; the only question would be a suitable entrance. Morgoth really shouldn't have needed Hurin to unwittingly give away the general location. He should have known that already.

What land? That's a mountain range! And I doubt Orcs are much good at accurate mapping, so the fact that there was room for a city in the middle wouldn't have been at all obvious. Check out this map of the Old World (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TabulaRogeriana_upside-down.jpg) to see how tricky accurate maps can be (can you even recognise Italy?), and then consider that on a flat world, you can't get any location information from the sun or stars: it's literally all 'how far have I walked and in what direction?'.

Bear in mind also that the other Hidden Kingdom, Nargothrond, was almost certainly known by Morgoth to be underground (he must have taken captives who knew of it, after all), just like Menegroth. The obvious assumption would be that Turgon had done the same thing, somewhere. The other elves didn't dig into mountains, though - and even if the thought that Turgon might be taking after himself and the dwarves had occurred to Morgoth, he'd probably have looked at the Ered Wethrin rather than clear across Sirion.

Or Brethil, which was steadfastly defended by the House of Haleth. Surely they must be hiding something more interesting than just a Mortal rabble in there?

The one he actually should have spotted is the Havens of Sirion. Big M had the run of the entirety of Beleriand west of Amon Ereb, and yet the Sons of Feanor still beat him to the Silmaril? Did he just give up and go home after taking out Gondolin?

hS

[Urwen]

Click me, please..... (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19317)


Pretty please?

[Urwen]

What land? That's a mountain range! And I doubt Orcs are much good at accurate mapping, so the fact that there was room for a city in the middle wouldn't have been at all obvious. Check out this map of the Old World (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TabulaRogeriana_upside-down.jpg) to see how tricky accurate maps can be (can you even recognise Italy?), and then consider that on a flat world, you can't get any location information from the sun or stars: it's literally all 'how far have I walked and in what direction?'.

Bear in mind also that the other Hidden Kingdom, Nargothrond, was almost certainly known by Morgoth to be underground (he must have taken captives who knew of it, after all), just like Menegroth. The obvious assumption would be that Turgon had done the same thing, somewhere. The other elves didn't dig into mountains, though - and even if the thought that Turgon might be taking after himself and the dwarves had occurred to Morgoth, he'd probably have looked at the Ered Wethrin rather than clear across Sirion.

Or Brethil, which was steadfastly defended by the House of Haleth. Surely they must be hiding something more interesting than just a Mortal rabble in there?

The one he actually should have spotted is the Havens of Sirion. Big M had the run of the entirety of Beleriand west of Amon Ereb, and yet the Sons of Feanor still beat him to the Silmaril? Did he just give up and go home after taking out Gondolin?

hS


Okay, I guess that my replies will always be overshadowed by yours.....

[Huinesoron]

Okay, I guess that my replies will always be overshadowed by yours.....

I'm pretty sure people read up past the most recent comment. :) I certainly always do, and reply to anything that I feel I have something to say on. Given that your comment was a claim that Morgoth did know where Gondolin was, and my whole post was on the premise that he didn't, my only options for comments were 'I think you're wrong', or 'I think you're wrong and here's the reference to prove it'. Telling people flatly that they're wrong feels like stifling discussion, though. :)

For the record, though:

Yet there were ears that heard the words that Húrin spoke, and report of all came soon to the Dark Throne in the north; and Morgoth smiled, for he knew now clearly in what region Turgon dwelt, though because of the eagles no spy of his could yet come within sight of the land behind the Encircling Mountains. This was the first evil that the freedom of Húrin achieved.

Morgoth only found out where Gondolin was when Hurin gave it away; then, yes, he needed a traitor to tell him the way in and prepare the way.

If you're talking about the music thread: personally I just don't like watching videos very much, and am usually in a place (*cough*work*cough*) where doing so would be ill-advised. So barring a very persuasive post on why it's worth watching, I probably won't have anything to contribute over there. I think it's great that you posted it - I didn't even know that sub-forum existed! - but it's not something I'm interested in doing.

hS

[Huinesoron]

See above:

If you're talking about the music thread: personally I just don't like watching videos very much, and am usually in a place (*cough*work*cough*) where doing so would be ill-advised. So barring a very persuasive post on why it's worth watching, I probably won't have anything to contribute over there. I think it's great that you posted it - I didn't even know that sub-forum existed! - but it's not something I'm interested in doing.

EDIT: Response to a deleted post.

[Urwen]

Then I'll ask here, what I asked there, more or less: To what length would Beleg have gone for Turin's sake if he wasn't killed?

[Galadriel55]

Okay, I guess that my replies will always be overshadowed by yours.....

Urwen, we read the responses from oldest to newest. It really doesn't matter who posted first. You don't have to have the last post on the thread to be seen.

I agree with you that he required help getting an army over the mountains, but I wonder more about where he thought Turgon could have been.

What land? That's a mountain range! And I doubt Orcs are much good at accurate mapping, so the fact that there was room for a city in the middle wouldn't have been at all obvious. Check out this map of the Old World (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TabulaRogeriana_upside-down.jpg) to see how tricky accurate maps can be (can you even recognise Italy?), and then consider that on a flat world, you can't get any location information from the sun or stars: it's literally all 'how far have I walked and in what direction?'.

Bear in mind also that the other Hidden Kingdom, Nargothrond, was almost certainly known by Morgoth to be underground (he must have taken captives who knew of it, after all), just like Menegroth. The obvious assumption would be that Turgon had done the same thing, somewhere. The other elves didn't dig into mountains, though - and even if the thought that Turgon might be taking after himself and the dwarves had occurred to Morgoth, he'd probably have looked at the Ered Wethrin rather than clear across Sirion.

Or Brethil, which was steadfastly defended by the House of Haleth. Surely they must be hiding something more interesting than just a Mortal rabble in there?

The one he actually should have spotted is the Havens of Sirion. Big M had the run of the entirety of Beleriand west of Amon Ereb, and yet the Sons of Feanor still beat him to the Silmaril? Did he just give up and go home after taking out Gondolin?

hS

How many options are there with a place where an entire kingdom can be hidden both from Morgoth and from other Elves? Because Morgoth would have known (from spies and captives) that the Elves themselves do not know where Turgon hid himself and his people. They can't live underground indefinitely, they have to come above ground for food and such occasionally at least, so they can't be entirely invisible in a land that can be reached by Morgoth's spies.

Ered Wethrin is out, because then Fingon's people would be aware of Turgon's people. Brethil surely couldn't be that well defended that no spies could get through - and especially after the Nirnaeth.

The one thing that would guide him away from the Echoriath is that he might have thought they were uninhabitable, impregnable, etc. That the Eagles were removing his spies because they found them annoying, not to protect something. But still - process of elimination. Hithlum fell, eastern Beleriand fell, Nargothrond fell - and Morgoth still needed Hurin to give him the location? Does process of elimination mean nothing to him?

i do agree about the Havens. Morgoth should have known where the Silmaril ended up, and it wouldn't have taken him much force to regain it.

[Galadriel55]

Then I'll ask here, what I asked there, more or less: To what length would Beleg have gone for Turin's sake if he wasn't killed?

I think Beleg would have gone with Turin all the way, to make sure Turin lived and that he stayed of the right moral path. But if Turin would stubbornly and irreversibly insist on following some morally questionable activity, it's possible Beleg would then leave him.

Basically I think Beleg would keep doing what he was doing before.

[Urwen]

Yes. I wish I had a friend like Beleg. That friendship was so good while it lasted.



By the way, you should read Kalevala. I think you'll find the main character of that poem interesting.

[Galadriel55]

By the way, you should read Kalevala. I think you'll find the main character of that poem interesting.

I read a synopsis, I am somewhat familiar with it. I would indeed like the story - just maybe not in that format.


Going back to the discussion of Turin and the Curse and the what-ifs, I came upon this interesting quote:

Nellas of Doriath never saw him again, and his shadow passed from her.

This makes it sound like Turin's "shadow" was an ever-present entity, and one that he would not have avoided had he stayed in Doriath. In a way it implies that whatever he does and whoever he associates with will be overcast by it. If he didn't ruin Finduilas, he would have ruined Nellas. If he didn't ruin Nargothrond, it would have been Doriath.

And I still stand by my earlier argument that whatever he does he will worse than fail by the nature of the Curse, but his problem is that he always rises high and so the stakes are always high and the disaster is big. He can't keep his head down, not meddle in the big affairs, keep to himself in a quiet way. No, he has to lead and lead big, as big as he can, so the crash is big too. Had he lead some quiet reclusive life on a farmstead or in the woods or something, his doom might have been proportionally small. And he tried for a while - with the outlaws, and later before his integration into Brethil - but he just can't be less than he is. He is a great man, a great fighter, a great leader, and he can't not be the best he can be.

[Huinesoron]

How many options are there with a place where an entire kingdom can be hidden both from Morgoth and from other Elves? Because Morgoth would have known (from spies and captives) that the Elves themselves do not know where Turgon hid himself and his people. They can't live underground indefinitely, they have to come above ground for food and such occasionally at least, so they can't be entirely invisible in a land that can be reached by Morgoth's spies.

Ered Wethrin is out, because then Fingon's people would be aware of Turgon's people. Brethil surely couldn't be that well defended that no spies could get through - and especially after the Nirnaeth.

The one thing that would guide him away from the Echoriath is that he might have thought they were uninhabitable, impregnable, etc. That the Eagles were removing his spies because they found them annoying, not to protect something. But still - process of elimination. Hithlum fell, eastern Beleriand fell, Nargothrond fell - and Morgoth still needed Hurin to give him the location? Does process of elimination mean nothing to him?

I would say: lots. Beleriand wasn't a particularly heavily-populated place. Turgon could have gone south - there's literally nothing south of Andram and east of the Nenning. He could have gone east - until the Sons of Feanor had to retreat, everything south of Estolad was pretty much empty. Heck, he could have stayed in Nevrast - apparently nobody ever bothered to go there until Tuor showed up! I really can't see any reason for Morgoth to assume that this lump of mountains, as opposed to any other (there's one above Ivrin, one at the joining of the Mountains of Mithrim and the Ered Wethrin, all the stuff around Rerir), simply had to be important.

My guess is that, until the Nirnaeth, Morgoth actually didn't think about Turgon at all. There might have been some murmuring about how the High King's son/brother (delete as temporally appropriate) vanished, but if some cowardly elf and his people chose to run off, what was that to the King of the World? It was only when Turgon suddenly appeared with a vast army that Morgoth had no idea was out there that he had to pay attention.

Morgoth knew that Turgon had appeared and retreated through the Pass of Sirion, which actually rules out a lot of places I've suggested. He probably picked up the name of Gondolin, and so knew that he was looking for the Hidden Rock (whatever that meant). And he knew that it could field at least ten thousand warriors. At that point... maybe he could have made the wild leap to 'hidden valley in the mountains'. But I still think 'somewhere off in the south' is more logical (like, say, the mouths of Sirion... :D)

hS

[Galadriel55]

The reason I ruled out a lot of places is 1) has to be where Morgoth's spies wouldn't see him - what keeps them from checking out all the other random lumps of rock? Nothing much, really; and 2) Turgon has to be close enough to be relevant. I mean sure, he could have even gone over the Ered Luin, but then he's less in the picture and less worrisome. He can't get into the play in time to change events; he has to be physically present on site to make a difference that would affect Morgoth.

(Again what no one realized is that Gondolin's importance was in making Earendil and not in their strength at all, but then no one has the same reader's knowledge as us, so they all assume that the way of defeating Morgoth must be through battle with him and through survival when battle is not possible).

[Urwen]

I read a synopsis, I am somewhat familiar with it. I would indeed like the story - just maybe not in that format.


Going back to the discussion of Turin and the Curse and the what-ifs, I came upon this interesting quote:



This makes it sound like Turin's "shadow" was an ever-present entity, and one that he would not have avoided had he stayed in Doriath. In a way it implies that whatever he does and whoever he associates with will be overcast by it. If he didn't ruin Finduilas, he would have ruined Nellas. If he didn't ruin Nargothrond, it would have been Doriath.

And I still stand by my earlier argument that whatever he does he will worse than fail by the nature of the Curse, but his problem is that he always rises high and so the stakes are always high and the disaster is big. He can't keep his head down, not meddle in the big affairs, keep to himself in a quiet way. No, he has to lead and lead big, as big as he can, so the crash is big too. Had he lead some quiet reclusive life on a farmstead or in the woods or something, his doom might have been proportionally small. And he tried for a while - with the outlaws, and later before his integration into Brethil - but he just can't be less than he is. He is a great man, a great fighter, a great leader, and he can't not be the best he can be.


I believe that, had he stayed in Doriath, and took Nellas as his wife, the curse would have been avoided.


Alternatively, since Beleriand is Morgoth's domain, if he and his family fled Beleriand, they would have been safe from the curse. And Morgoth would have been left with Hurin alone.


I wrote a what-if story about what would have happened if Beleg and Nellas tried to waylay the Curse.

[Urwen]

What would you say if there existed an Elf with Orcish heritage?

[Urwen]

This one gets it (https://elladrawn.tumblr.com/post/171812486680/maeglin-is-a-tragic-orphan)

This one too (https://jumclia.tumblr.com/post/158060833999/if-you-think-maeglins-life-wasnt-depressing)

[Galadriel55]

I believe that, had he stayed in Doriath, and took Nellas as his wife, the curse would have been avoided.

Does the quote not seem to you like the reason Nellas was spared the Curse was only because Turin left her, did not associate with her any longer?

Alternatively, since Beleriand is Morgoth's domain, if he and his family fled Beleriand, they would have been safe from the curse. And Morgoth would have been left with Hurin alone.

I thought Morgoth claimed his domain to be the whole of Arda. :confused: Arguably though his presence was mainly in Beleriand. I don't know if there's a way to show one way or another, but he did try to put the whole world under his power, and thinking thinking he has ousted the influence of the Valar in the world beyond Aman he might have claimed all of it for his own. Also, curious about when his interactions with Men started. I recall the coming of Men only vaguely, and I'm not sure if Morgoth's messengers could already have been at work before the Men came close to Beleriand. There are also scattered references to the Fathers of Men fleeing from some darkness, and to Morgoth poisoning the Gift so that Men would fear death; that must have happened somewhere early on.

But regardless, don't think that would have worked anyways given that Turin's life passion was to fight Morgoth, something that's hard to do when you're a million miles away. :)

I wrote a what-if story about what would have happened if Beleg and Nellas tried to waylay the Curse.

Does it involve both of them end up dying horribly? :p

(I'm kidding. Fanfic is where we can have our favourite characters stay alive and choose the righter option, even as we know it can't be this way.)

[Galadriel55]

This one too (https://jumclia.tumblr.com/post/158060833999/if-you-think-maeglins-life-wasnt-depressing)

Yeah, this one gets it - except for the part that even weird teenagers aren't justified in committing felony.

I heard a parent say about their autistic child that the illness might be an explanation for the child's behaviour, but it is not an excuse. I think that's a sentence that all people should live by and should be judged by, regardless of what may serve as explanation for what goes on in their lives. We need to know the explanation - the "why" is the essence of every person, and the reason we feel any emotion about them. However, there is a line for everyone, and once that line is crossed, it's crossed. It's possible to relate to Maeglin, pity him, empathize with him, wish better luck or chances for him, seek the sources of his personality, etc. - and yet still find him guilty and deserving of the consequences that he got. An explanation is not always an excuse.

[Urwen]

If you think I don't know that, then look at my signature. If I found M[a]eglin completely blameless, I wouldn't have this signature.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

As was the case with so very many of my clients. And where I was obliged to make that argument, even as I knew what the CA's standard riposte was going to be: "His crappy upbringing didn't pick up a gun and kill someone; he did."

[Urwen]

As was the case with so very many of my clients. And where I was obliged to make that argument, even as I knew what the CA's standard riposte was going to be: "His crappy upbringing didn't pick up a gun and kill someone; he did."

Except that he didn't 'pick up' anything. Rather, he was the one picked up and tossed over the edge. Oh, and let's not forget that his arm was broken.

[Huinesoron]

Except that he didn't 'pick up' anything. Rather, he was the one picked up and tossed over the edge. Oh, and let's not forget that his arm was broken.

Well... a dagger, to stab a small child when he didn't have time left to throw said small child over a cliff in front of his mother. But let's not split hairs (though I imagine Idril had some split hairs after being dragged around by them...).

hS

[Urwen]

Well... a dagger, to stab a small child when he didn't have time left to throw said small child over a cliff in front of his mother. But let's not split hairs (though I imagine Idril had some split hairs after being dragged around by them...).

hS


Breaking news: A 20-year-old (by human standards) attempts a murder, then gets tossed into the fire

(I might be a bit biased here, considering another fictional character I cherished deeply was also killed at the age of twenty, by one of the 'good guys')

[Galadriel55]

Breaking news: A 20-year-old (by human standards) attempts a murder, then gets tossed into the fire

Breaking news: a 20 year old sprays his local school with gasoline and sets it on fire. Following that fact he attempts to murder a 6-year-old and rape one of the teachers that he had a crush on since he was a kid. In attempting to protect the innocents in the building, one of the security guards attempts to apprehend the murderer-to-be but cannot do so without harming him, as the young man continues to fight and threatens the safety of other people. In the struggle the man is injured and ends up dying in the fire that he himself started.

Fixed that for you. ;)

[Urwen]

Well, like I said.....


(I might be a bit biased here, considering another fictional character I cherished deeply was also killed at the age of twenty, by one of the 'good guys')

[Galadriel55]

Which other 20 year old are you referring to?

[Urwen]

He is from Japanese animation, so you might not know him.

[Galadriel55]

He is from Japanese animation, so you might not know him.

Ah. I was thinking it's within the legendarium. Thanks for clarifying!

[Urwen]

I find Turin and Beleg's friendship inspirational.

[Urwen]

I also find it interesting that while there were quite a number of names that belonged to First Age Elves that were recycled in Second and Third Age. And yet, there were quite a number of names that weren't (Finrod, Maeglin, Aredhel, Idril, Penlod, Egalmoth, Salgant, Saeros, Elwe, Olwe, Elenwe etc.)

[Galadriel55]

I also find it interesting that while there were quite a number of names that belonged to First Age Elves that were recycled in Second and Third Age. And yet, there were quite a number of names that weren't (Finrod, Maeglin, Aredhel, Idril, Penlod, Egalmoth, Salgant, Saeros, Elwe, Olwe, Elenwe etc.)

Lots of names were recycled by Numenorian Men, which used to belong to Men and Elves alike (as Nerwen's recent riddle proved). Do Elves recycle their names though? I'm interested to see if there's an example.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Lots of names were recycled by Numenorian Men, which used to belong to Men and Elves alike (as Nerwen's recent riddle proved). Do Elves recycle their names though? I'm interested to see if there's an example.

On the one hand, T once wrote "No...major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance" (This was his reason for concluding Glorfindel of Gondolin and of Rivendell were one and the same). This does make sense, since even if you named your little Elfling after some dead Elvish hero, that dead Elf might come back.

On the other hand, T appears to have overlooked Galdor of Gondolin and Galdor of the Havens - unless either the latter Galdor was "of no importance," or if the original Galdor escaped the sack, made it to the Mouths of Sirion, and decided to hang out with Cirdan for the next 7000 years. But in that case, surely his buddy-reunion with Glorfindel would have been noted!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I also find it interesting that while there were quite a number of names that belonged to First Age Elves that were recycled in Second and Third Age. And yet, there were quite a number of names that weren't (Finrod, Maeglin, Aredhel, Idril, Penlod, Egalmoth, Salgant, Saeros, Elwe, Olwe, Elenwe etc.)

Well, I think that Numenoreans would have avoided certain names as just TOO big (Finrod, Elwe, Olwe, Finwe, Fingolfin: Turgon was an exception, as more than just a direct ancestor of the Kings but the Elf who explicitly agreed to his daughter marrying a Man, starting the whole thing. He was practically family). Villains were right out: Maeglin, Salgant, Saeros, Eol (How many Mordreds or Iagos have you met?) Aredhel means "noble Elf," so not good for a human woman. Actually, T gives us so few names of Numenorean women that we can't say names like Idril and Elenwe weren't used; we know that Finduilas was.

[Urwen]

Yes, this quote got me thinking about it


...and the name of Meglin has gone out of shame from among Eldar and Noldoli.

[Huinesoron]

Taking a few things in reverse...

Well, I think that Numenoreans would have avoided certain names as just TOO big (Finrod, Elwe, Olwe, Finwe, Fingolfin: Turgon was an exception, as more than just a direct ancestor of the Kings but the Elf who explicitly agreed to his daughter marrying a Man, starting the whole thing. He was practically family). Villains were right out: Maeglin, Salgant, Saeros, Eol (How many Mordreds or Iagos have you met?) Aredhel means "noble Elf," so not good for a human woman. Actually, T gives us so few names of Numenorean women that we can't say names like Idril and Elenwe weren't used; we know that Finduilas was.

Tolkien Gateway claims that "Ingold" (ie, Finrod's Mother-name) was pretty popular among Numenoreans; I'm not sure what that claim is based on, though.

Without checking, I feel like it was mostly the post-king Gondorians who reused names (ie, the Stewards and Dol Amroth); there's an Earendil and a Turambar in the list of kings of Gondor, but the rest look pretty unfamiliar. The lines of Numenor and Arnor are equally non-First-Age. So I feel like there was an element of harking back to the Glory Days (even if they weren't Gondorian Glory Days) involved in the whole thing.

On the one hand, T once wrote "No...major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance" (This was his reason for concluding Glorfindel of Gondolin and of Rivendell were one and the same). This does make sense, since even if you named your little Elfling after some dead Elvish hero, that dead Elf might come back.

On the other hand, T appears to have overlooked Galdor of Gondolin and Galdor of the Havens - unless either the latter Galdor was "of no importance," or if the original Galdor escaped the sack, made it to the Mouths of Sirion, and decided to hang out with Cirdan for the next 7000 years. But in that case, surely his buddy-reunion with Glorfindel would have been noted!

There's also Legolas, scout of Gondolin. And Gildor Inglorion, whose name seems to indicate that he was the son of Inglor - but 'Inglor' was a name either of Finrod or Finarfin, and no family tree has ever given either of them a son named Gildor. So apparently there's two Inglors, too (though Gildor also claims to be of 'the golden house of Finrod', so... who knows!).

Of course, the external answer is that Tolkien frequently cannibalised the earlier Tales when writing LotR and its associated texts. That's why he had such trouble with Glorfindel - originally he was just a convenient name, but when he set to cleaning up the Gondolin tale for theoretical publication, he had to find a way to reconcile the two.

Lots of names were recycled by Numenorian Men, which used to belong to Men and Elves alike (as Nerwen's recent riddle proved). Do Elves recycle their names though? I'm interested to see if there's an example.

Well... Finwe. Who named his sons Finwe, Finwe, and Finwe, then stuck some new bits on the front when he figured out their personalities. And then Finwe Jr I, now called Curufinwe, named one of his sons Curufinwe.

And then, after Finwe and Finwe Jr I were both dead, Finwe Jr II and Finwe Jr III both stuck their dad's name on the beginning of their own names, which were already their dad's name with something stuck on the beginning, because... somehow doing that made them more kingly?

Basically, if Mordred had just renamed himself Arthurevilarthur, he would've had the throne no problem.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Note that the Kings of Gondor took names in Quenya, while the First Age Elves are ordinarily known by their Sindarin handles. So there may be more duplication than appears.

[Urwen]

I wonder how would Eol have felt if he knew that a mortal wielded his creation. If he is anything like his son, I reckon he'd be disgusted.

[Urwen]

A story I wrote about the Last Battle (https://archiveofourown.org/works/18692278/chapters/44331022)

Guess who it is about.....if you dare. :cool:

[Huinesoron]

I wonder how would Eol have felt if he knew that a mortal wielded his creation. If he is anything like his son, I reckon he'd be disgusted.

I dunno... given that Eol hated basically all elves, he had a surprisingly good relationship with the dwarves. Maybe it was just because they were smiths, but he could also be seen as hating anyone who's had contact with Aman - and therefore liking by default those who haven't.

I could see him getting on quite well with Turin, who (to Eol's mind) quite rightly shunned his kinsman Thingol. I can also see him and Haleth hitting it off - after all, she hated House Feanor enough to drag her people through a Spider-infested valley rather than be connected to them, and then she snubbed Thingol something fierce. She had to go pretty much right past Nan Elmoth to reach Brethil, too... you know, I think there's a story in that.

(I wonder if I can tie it to my theory about Narsil being Haleth's sword (https://huinesoron.webs.com/Netilardo/Theory19.htm)...)

A story I wrote about the Last Battle (https://archiveofourown.org/works/18692278/chapters/44331022)

Guess who it is about.....if you dare. :cool:

See, now, I assumed it would be all about Maeglin reforging Gurthang and being revealed to be the hero all along... :D

hS

[Urwen]

Well, I value Turin and co. even more than M[a]eglin.

[Urwen]

P.S: I read your theory (the one where Maglor killed Maedhros) and I have mixed feelings about it.

[Urwen]

Do you think that Elves of Gondolin will hold a grudge? As in, will they try to mob-lynch the subject of their ire upon rebirth?

[Huinesoron]

P.S: I read your theory (the one where Maglor killed Maedhros) and I have mixed feelings about it.

Ohhh yes, that one. I really like that one. ^_^ Unlike a lot of my theories, I managed to stuff that idea with enough symbolism that it feels like something Tolkien could have written.

(Note that I'm not saying he did. Unlike the Not-So-Crackpot Theories, which go on the idea that Tolkien didn't tell us everything, the Filthy Liars section plays with the idea of Tolkien as an unreliable narrator. Much as I enjoy the theory itself, Tolkien was very clear on what happened to the Silmarils.)

Do you think that Elves of Gondolin will hold a grudge? As in, will they try to mob-lynch the subject of their ire upon rebirth?

I'd sort of assume Mandos' judgement would take into account whether his guests had vengeance in their hearts, and not let them out until they were healed. So anyone who needed to be reembodied wouldn't hold a grudge. But... not all the elves of Gondolin died. I think at least a couple of the Lords of the City made it out, even (on checking, Tuor and Galdor are the only lords of houses to get past the Second Kinslaying, but even so).

But... assuming that Maeglin is released immediately after the end of the Third Age (this is amazingly generous; personally I doubt he's coming out at all), that's still over six thousand years for the survivors of Gondolin to hold a grudge. Can you imagine still caring about something after what's basically the entire length of human civilisation - and caring about it enough to commit murder, and get yourself brought before the Valar Themselves?

I don't imagine they'd particularly like Maeglin, at least at first. If the House of Finwe accepts him as one of their own, they could probably rehabilitate him - it's hard to imagine the survivors muttering against overmuch him once Turgon has publically forgiven him. But I don't think lynching is particularly likely.

THAT SAID... what about before reembodiment? I've taken the position before that the Halls of Mandos are a fairly solitary environment, but Tolkien gives us an example of quite an involved interaction between deceased elves: Finwe and Miriel, who pretty much put together a legal case in the Halls. So apparently they can meet up, and even disagree; so yeah, dead!Maeglin would most definitely be shunned, even assuming no form of pseudo-physical interaction was possible.

hS

[Urwen]

Did you see my new parodies? They pretty much play up on that idea.

[Urwen]

Also, what is it about Turin that makes people love him?

Most of the CoH characters love him. Fans love him.

Also......

https://66.media.tumblr.com/6656b4d87f20c74ca8d138b1c706db1b/tumblr_pqhe06jwe01y4unl6o1_400.png
"Thus with words have I slain one that I loved."

[Urwen]

I read your opinion about Tar-Miriel and I can't help but cry. It is so, so heartbreaking.....:(

[Galadriel55]

Also, what is it about Turin that makes people love him?

Most of the CoH characters love him. Fans love him.

Fans - well, it's hard not to love a tragic hero. We are fascinated by them.

COH characters - Turin isn't just rude and impatient. He is also honourable, passionate, fair, strong, dependable. He is a good person, and he tries to do good. He stands up for what he believes in. He does amazing things, he has endured many challenges that few other people could endure. He inspires others with his strength and his vision. So, whether the characters like him or not, it's hard for them not to respect him.

[Urwen]

Do you think that some of the other characters will support him during the Final Battle?

He is the one who will bring down Morgoth, after all. But Morgoth is this huge, humongous being, with a hammer that weighs at least a ton. Someone who can kill a person with one stomp of his humongous feet.

Bottom line is, he'll need help. Some armor, for instance, and some protective enchantments.

[Galadriel55]

Do you think that some of the other characters will support him during the Final Battle?

Why wouldn't they? Except for whatever metaphysical limitations may occur, I don't think Turin would stand alone.

As for the limitations, I'm really not sure how and in what form Turin will return to this world to defeat Morgoth. Did his fea never leave the world, never accepted the Gift, waiting for the ultimate conclusion and closure of his story? Did it come back from beyond the Circles of the World? Where did his body come from? Are others able to come back the same way or is it just him? I don't know/remember very much about the Final Battle, so it's hard to answer.

ETA: But I don't think the reason for Turin's victory will be his prowess in combat, or his weapons and armour. I think all these things will only be an external manifestation of the battle of wills. Turin, finally able to direct all of the bitterness accumulated over his life straight at the cause of his misery, will not hold anything back, and I think Morgoth would be a little overwhelmed by the amount of emotional force directed at him. Turin is a very passionate character who tends to internalize his emotions like a sponge, and in COH the overflow always spills out negatively. I think in the Battle they get to be squeezed out of the sponge and directed at Morgoth, and after that fight Turin would find peace.

[Urwen]

Some theorize that he and his family would return from beyond the Circles of the World in order to find Morgoth. My beliefs that they would take part in the Second Song afterwards, and would thus be returned to life, to be the Guardians of Arda Healed, and Protectors of all that lives there.

They are the perfect candidates for such a role, and given the amount of suffering they have endured because of Morgoth, it would be satisfying to see them have another shot at life they deserve.

[Urwen]

I read your opinion about Tar-Miriel and I can't help but cry. It is so, so heartbreaking.....:(

I, however, don't agree with your description of Erendis, because I can't help but be mad at her. Even when her husband revealed the real reason for his voyages, she still acted as if she were the injured party. She was perfectly willing to let Sauron run amok unchecked, spreading terror and remaining a threat, because to her, having her husband by her side was far more important, amirite?

Basically, I see her as a selfish individual who was perfectly willing to see the world burn as long as she got what she wanted.

People like Maeglin are vilified for putting their own desires ahead of the well-being of the world as a whole, and yet when someone like Erendis does the same thing (more or less), it's all perfectly kosher.

I feel it's a tad unfair.

[Huinesoron]

I, however, don't agree with your description of Erendis, because I can't help but be mad at her. Even when her husband revealed the real reason for his voyages, she still acted as if she were the injured party. She was perfectly willing to let Sauron run amok unchecked, spreading terror and remaining a threat, because to her, having her husband by her side was far more important, amirite?

Basically, I see her as a selfish individual who was perfectly willing to see the world burn as long as she got what she wanted.

People like Maeglin are vilified for putting their own desires ahead of the well-being of the world as a whole, and yet when someone like Erendis does the same thing (more or less), it's all perfectly kosher.

I feel it's a tad unfair.

Ah, is this in the Strong Female Characters thing? Bear in mind that falls under the Not-So-Crackpot Theories section: ie, unlike the Deep Places list (which tries to be evidence-based and explicitly state when something is a stretch), it's allowed to be a bit on the biased and weird side. (That one comes right above the one that claims, straightfaced, that Nienor exists because Tolkien wanted people to paint nudes. O.o)

Erendis is messed up. So is Aldarion. He doesn't care about her much at all, and she is insanely jealous of him. Much like Maeglin, even if the specific inciting incident hadn't occured, she would have found something to get angry about. Take a look at how badly she messed up her daughter - and, by extension and example, all three of the later Ruling Queens - to show this.

(Of course, this still makes her a strong character...)

As for Tar-Miriel: she was the Queen, and I refuse to accept the usurper's claim. :D

hS

[Urwen]

Much like Maeglin, even if the specific inciting incident hadn't occured, she would have found something to get angry about.

So....you think that even if the circumstances were different, both of them would still have done what they did?

As for Tar-Miriel: she was the Queen, and I refuse to accept the usurper's claim. :D

hS

Me neither.

[Urwen]

P.S: Did you see my latest parodies?

[Urwen]

Nienor and Tar-Miriel survived.

The text only states that Nienor jumped into Teiglin, not that it killed her. Likewise, the text only says that Tar-Miriel was swallowed by the waves, not that it killed her. And as we know, Ulmo has a penchant for saving good people when it is in his power to do so. He saved Voronwe from the shipwreck, after all.

And in both of those cases, he had the power to do so. He saved them both, enabling them to start new lives somewhere else.

Pity that Turin chose not to jump into the river himself. If he had, he would have been saved too.

[Galadriel55]

I don't think Nienor would want to be saved, and as such I don't think she was. Tar-Miriel however... :D *puts on fanfic glasses*