TIG CXVII: GAME Thread:

[Boromir88]

Nah, if Sori doesn't vote I'm lynched by Rule of First.:(

The dead have their vote too. So I guess it would be down between you and Legate.

[Galadriel55]

Deadline. Please wait a few minutes for me to catch up to everything and figure out the final tally.

[Soriman the Whide]

Damn!

[Galadriel55]

The passions ran high and patience wore low as the fourth day at Tarn Aeluin came to a close. Fingers were pointed and rash words were said.

“It is Pitch!” shouted Morsul.

“Legate is the traitor!” countered Lommy.

“I don’t think you’re so trustworthy yourself,” Boro responded. “Our fallen brothers have signalled to us that Soriman’s heart is true, but I am not so sure about you!”

“Never mind, it’s not Pitch,” Morsul declared.

“It is too!” Legate responded. “More traitor than I am, at any rate!”

“Peace!” Boro’s voice boomed over the hills. “Let us be patient in this matter and let the dead resolve our quarrel. They have more wisdom than we do, so let their wisdom guide us in this!”

All the outlaws made a circle around a large pine tree that grew alone at the top of a hill. As the sun began to set, a wind arose from the West and dark clouds gathered. The earth itself began to shake. Needles and pine cones fell onto their cloaks and into their boots as the tree swayed. They hid their faces in the face of this great calamity. When the earth was still and the wind died, and the faint rays of the sun shone their last from beneath the clouds, their opened their eyes. Alas! They beheld that a great branch has fallen onto the lifeless shape of ++Legate. But even as they marveled, his shape began to change, turning into that of a powerful werewolf.


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/32/7e/a3/327ea3536a98a9bbccd442f66cc726ec.png


The Living
Boro
Lommy
Morsul
Pitch
Soriman

The Dead
Gorlim (NPC/Ghost)
Galadriel55 (Night 1)
BlindGuardian (Night 1)
Greenie (Day 1 - Ordo)
Formendacil (Night 2 - Ordo)
Hui (Day 2 - Ordo)
Loslote (Night 3 - Ranger)
Sally (Day 3 - Wolf)
Kath (Night 4 - Seer)
Legate (Day 4 - Wolf)


Night 5 begins.

[Blind Guardian]

There had occurred a wonderful victory for the outlaws. They had correctly identified two wolves two days in a row. The remaining innocent villagers were sleeping as soundly as they could considering that ten of their companions were now dead. The fifth remaining outlaw was a wolf that was now very, very mad at its turned fate.

It paced at the edges of the camp, eyeing the one light that remained: the light of Boro who was patrolling around the remaining cluster of occupied tents. He had fashioned himself as a sort of night guard, trying to protect the remaining innocents despite the fact that one of them was a puppet of Sauron.

The wolf watched Boro for a while, trying to figure out how to quietly get him away from the others. Eventually, Boro solved the problem himself. He grew hungry as one does when left alone and began to wander off towards the store room.

The wolf saw its chance and pounced on poor Boro ripping limb from limb until he was recognizable by only the clothes he had been wearing.

Upon the sunrise the next Day, the outlaws found that their numbers had not changed, since Ghostlote had decided to join them. They tasked her with digging Boro's grave.

The Living
Lommy
Morsul
Pitch
Soriman
***Loslote - Gorlim/Ghost

The Dead
Gorlim (NPC/Ghost)
Galadriel55 (Night 1)
BlindGuardian (Night 1)
Greenie (Day 1 - Ordo)
Formendacil (Night 2 - Ordo)
Hui (Day 2 - Ordo)
***Loslote (Night 3 - Ranger)
Sally (Day 3 - Wolf)
Kath (Night 4 - Seer)
Legate (Day 4 - Wolf)
Boro (Night 5 - Ordo)

Day 5 begins.

Just a reminder that Soriman is required to vote today.

[Loslote]

"Good morning!" said Bilbo, and he meant it. The sun was shining, and the grass was very green. But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out farther than the brim of his shady hat.
"What do you mean?" he said. "Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?"
"All of them at once," said Bilbo.


"I have come," he said.

"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

--Ghost

[Loslote]

‘And what may be the words of the seer?’ said Legolas.

It must be remembered that the Stones were originally "innocent," serving no evil purpose.

It then became pitch-dark—not what you call
pitch-dark, but really pitch: so black that you really could see nothing.

Thus the Dwarves of Moria may be presumed to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath and not hostile to the Elves.

It was, unfortunately, very clear and correct (according to the legal customs of hobbits, which demand among other things seven signatures of witnesses in red ink).

--Ghost

[Morsul the Dark]

Boro dead? Ok. Weird. Ok Sorimon is an innocent that leaves a coin flip of Pitch and Lommy

Hey LostLottie(ehehh? I thought y’all would send Kath I had Kathaver like cadaver lined up but that sounds like Catheter so this is probably better. Umm oh right.

Hey Ghost Buddy. Y’all suspected Pitch then voted Legate was there a dream saying Legate was a wolf or did Kath Dream innocent Pitch?

If it’s Innocent Pitch then it must be WolfLommy if it was wolf Legate dreamed then I have to figure it out and that sounds hard tbh.

[Morsul the Dark]

Oh cross posted Ghost. pitch is innocent.

++Lommy

Did y’all happen to dream me or Lommy to prove this is true? I hope so otherwise I have to convince Pitch...

[Loslote]

Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment.

"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

I guess it’s a choice feast; at least a tasty morsel it’d make us, gollum!

As thralls thy mother and thy sister live in Dor-lómin, in misery and want.

Your own way you alone can choose.

The wind wails,
The wolf howls.


--Ghost

[Morsul the Dark]

Great. So no dream to confirm me or Lommy just great. Ok

Here’s the deal. Yesterday I, an innocent votes an Innocent. Not good. Lommy voted a wolf good. Boro voted Lommy which counterintuitively points to everyone but Lommy because it’s too obvious.

Point is the evidence points at me and therefore is too convenient to actually be me.

And therefore it’s Lommy.

Lommy I’m sure will put up lots of analysis and reasoning and all that good stuff but it’ll just be essays of lies.

This is my case.

[Morsul the Dark]

This is fun (https://youtu.be/E2-AnDdgIF4)

[Morsul the Dark]

Waiting for the rest of the villagehttps://youtu.be/t8iTZm8-mbA

[Blind Guardian]

Well I'm here. Thank you for entertaining me. :D

But don't worry, the last few minutes of the Day will have so many comments the Downs will break.

[Morsul the Dark]

Well I'm here. Thank you for entertaining me. :D

But don't worry, the last few minutes of the Day will have so many comments the Downs will break.

True enough

[Loslote]

“All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

--Ghost

[Pitchwife]

Oh cross posted Ghost. pitch is innocent.

++Lommy

Did y’all happen to dream me or Lommy to prove this is true? I hope so otherwise I have to convince Pitch...
AGAIN??? You're hasty folk indeed.:rolleyes: And I don't like it.


Why Boro? Got to say I was surprised to see him dead, I thought the last wolf would have rather eliminated Soriman who is as close to a confirmed innocet as it gets. There goes the Boro/Legate pack. Glad to know I was right in trusting him though.



Sorry, I can't keep you company right now, I'll pop in briefly in a few hours and be back in the European evening. But anyway, Morsul -



*ping*

[Morsul the Dark]

AGAIN??? You're hasty folk indeed.:rolleyes: And I don't like it.*

I mean. If you and Sorimon are confirmed innocent and I know I’m innocent, why wouldn’t I vote the person I Know is the wolf.

[Pitchwife]

Fair enough. Things are not as clear to me, so I didn't see it that way.

[Morsul the Dark]

Fair enough. Things are not as clear to me, so I didn't see it that way.

I know. I had hoped there was a Dream clarifying me and LommyWolf but there isn’t.

[Morsul the Dark]

Since it’s so quiet I’ll add this thought.

On Day 1 I voted Huin out of knee jerk reaction after changing my mind. On Day two I was going to vote Lottie then voted Sally. On day three and four I voted ridiculously early once for a wolf once for an innocent. Does that sound like a wolf or an Ordo with no idea what he’s doing (https://youtu.be/EpcYAvvYLFI)?

[Thinlómien]

Sorry, I've been ridiculously busy with work again (we have a new intern who started today, and by "we" I mean that I'm in charge of her so no ww:ing during work today!)

Anyway, now here on/off until hopefully about 2h before DL. (Hopefully = hopefully for my physical and mental health I can manage to go to sleep at a semi sensible hour. :rolleyes:)

YesterDay's voting looks absolutely insane by the way, and I'm also baffled to see Boro gone instead of Soriman. And we have a bonus surprise known innocent, too? Like I said before, this game has been absolutely bat excrement, and it doesn't seem to be slowing down towards the end!

Does that sound like a wolf or an Ordo with no idea what he’s doing?Well I have to say, hats off to you, because for pretty much the whole game I thought you were the latter. Bussing Sally was an insanely bold move and it might have won you the whole game, had the dead not just confirmed Pitch is innocent (can I say: thank god about that! I was thinking yesterDay that his votes made him look really bad but there was something genuine about his flipflopping about Sally, so I really had to argue reason vs gut... glad I didn't vote for him. And glad the dead have stopped me from voting for him toDay and ruining everything. Yikes.)

By the way I find it incredibly funny I was choosing between Legate, Boro and Pitch yesterDay, and I managed to vote for the only wolf on an about as wrong reasoning as you can get (that he looked the most likely to be in cahoots with either Pitch or Boro... who have now been proven innocent. :rolleyes::D) Anyway, Legate, if you're reading this, I'm withdrawing my apology for voting you. Just so you know. Doing wolfy business *in my house* *behind my back*?? Shame on you!

That being said

++MORSUL

Because honestly, if either Soriman or Pitch is a wolf, I'm gonna take it up with the Dead once the game is over.

Now I'm off to check yesterDay's last posts, I'm pretty sure I had something to reply to there.

[Morsul the Dark]

Sorry, I've been ridiculously busy with work again (we have a new intern who started today, and by "we" I mean that I'm in charge of her so no ww:ing during work today!)

Anyway, now here on/off until hopefully about 2h before DL. (Hopefully = hopefully for my physical and mental health I can manage to go to sleep at a semi sensible hour. :rolleyes:)

YesterDay's voting looks absolutely insane by the way, and I'm also baffled to see Boro gone instead of Soriman. And we have a bonus surprise known innocent, too? Like I said before, this game has been absolutely bat excrement, and it doesn't seem to be slowing down towards the end!

Well I have to say, hats off to you, because for pretty much the whole game I thought you were the latter. Bussing Sally was an insanely bold move and it might have won you the whole game, had the dead not just confirmed Pitch is innocent (can I say: thank god about that! I was thinking yesterDay that his votes made him look really bad but there was something genuine about his flipflopping about Sally, so I really had to argue reason vs gut... glad I didn't vote for him. And glad the dead have stopped me from voting for him toDay and ruining everything. Yikes.)

By the way I find it incredibly funny I was choosing between Legate, Boro and Pitch yesterDay, and I managed to vote for the only wolf on an about as wrong reasoning as you can get (that he looked the most likely to be in cahoots with either Pitch or Boro... who have now been proven innocent. :rolleyes::D) Anyway, Legate, if you're reading this, I'm withdrawing my apology for voting you. Just so you know. Doing wolfy business *in my house* *behind my back*?? Shame on you!

That being said

++MORSUL

Because honestly, if either Soriman or Pitch is a wolf, I'm gonna take it up with the Dead once the game is over.

Now I'm off to check yesterDay's last posts, I'm pretty sure I had something to reply to there.

Lots of words to say I’m smart. I’m not that smart.

Bolding mine. Oh cmon that’s not even a believable lie.

[Loslote]

Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?
Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?
Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing?
They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow.
Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,
Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?

Yet in doubt a man of worth will trust to his own wisdom.

--Ghost

[Thinlómien]

Looking at the above*, I find it noteworthy how Lommy keeps iterating that "something's wrong with Hui/Legate/Boro" in ever so many posts, hammering down the notion that one of them probably is a wolf while wavering and flipflopping about the details all the time, and also juggling some passing suspicion of sally in the other hand but ever reluctant to vote her.

On one hand she looks a lot like a befuddled Ordlómien, and at the time I could certainly sympathise with her predicament (one of my big mistakes this game, which I'm about to repeat, is hanging around to DL just because I can, whereas my thinking doesn't necessarily get clearer approaching it).

But on the other hand this would also befit a packmate of sally's who was frantically looking for a way to save her but also made sure to suspect her enough to exculpate herself if sally was lynched.If I had wanted to save Sally, why not go for Lottie? If I recall correctly, it was tied between them for quite a while.

And you know what's funny? That I DIDN'T want to vote for any of Hui/Legate/Boro (I believe I said so several times). I thought there was something weird there (well, we now know it was Legate *side eye*) but I didn't have the time to analyse it, nor the brains when the DL started approaching and it was late here. I was just making a mental note to look at it the next Day. I would have preferred to vote you or Kath (oops... :D side note: I thought there was something funny about Kath laying low... well indeed) but there didn't seem to be any support for either option, so I decided to choose someone else.

Lottie I did not suspect and Sally I was uncertain of since she hadn't posted much anything and I didn't think the Form kill pointed at her very strongly (and I kinda still don't think that even though I know she was a wolf... I would really like to know after the game if it was a dab at seer elimination or some kind of a no trace kill gone wrong). I thought lynching Sally would be not be the worst option but not the best either, as I thought her chances of being a wolf were not significantly higher than anybody else's and I didn't think it would shed light on others. Meanwhile the Huin/Legate/Boro trio was suspicious and lynching one of them WOULD shed light on the other two (spoiler alert: but it didn't, in hindsight) so I had the brainwave to go for Huin whom I found the most suspicious out of the three. I'll freely admit it was a past-midnight pre-deadline whim, and well, we now know it didn't exactly end in glory. So yeah, I thought Huin was both more (based on behaviour) and less (based on Form's death) suspicious than Sally, so what tipped the scales was the idea that his death would be more informative than hers if he turned out to be an ordo (vs if she turned out to be an ordo).

You claim that my post is wanting to continue to talk about Huey's messages today. And I say look at my other posts, have I been completely focused on Huey's messages? I don't think so. I brought it up again because I saw your comment as an attempt to cause confusion about the info Huey has given us.I'm aware I'm arguing with a dead person here, but just saying that this is not a very fair representation of me. I was writing and commenting at the same time, therefore I started with something like "I don't understand Huin" and later in the same (short paragraph) "update: ok I see what Huin means". Perhaps I should have edited that out since by the time I finished reading and writing I understood what Huin had meant (his initial post(s) were confusing to me, after clarification/repetition not) but when I do the thing that I read through the thread and comment as I go (fastest and easiest way to catch up with ww), I usually prefer to leave my old notes there even if they're not so relevant anymore, as long as I update them (as I did here). It's for two reasons: 1) I think it's an act of making my thought process more transparent and 2) because I'm lazy and also if I have already written something it goes to waste if I have to delete it, even if it's stupid. :p

I was responding to LegatetoI might be tired (I didn't go to sleep early yesterday either even though there wasn't ww) but this is making me crack up uncontrollably... imagining some random Italian dude named Legateto... :D

This is unexpected, as is your vote for Legate. I mean so it's a threeway coin-toss in your opinion, and that just looks like nonchallantly "I don't care who it is, just so it's not me." That is very much not something I expect from an innocent Lommy.
I know Boro is innocent, but this still has the same vibe in my head as Palpatine saying the news about him being elected as Supreme Chancellor is "unexpected."

Anyway I don't really follow this logic: if I was a wolf, wouldn't I have cared about my packmate not getting lynched either? When it was so close to wolf victory?

To be honest, I'm rather amazed yesterDay went as well as it did, because I was expecting a disaster. I didn't cherish the situation I was in - giving the wolves something to bandwagon on if I was wrong - but I couldn't stay up until the deadline either. I had started the Day full of determination to find the truth of the wolves' identities by analysing Kath, Sally, and the Boro/Legate/Hui thing, and I had failed to find anything conclusive. Everything was like "looks innocent but could be a bold wolf" or "looks wolvish but could be a confused innocent". I thought whatever I did would be quite likely to be wrong and doom the village (yes, maybe I thought it was about me more than it actually was), so I was feeling pretty helpless when I voted, being almost certain both the wolves would still be there until the deadline and the outcome would be up to them. I didn't think the village had much of a chance. Obviously I'm glad I was wrong, but given that my logic for arriving at Legate (that he was the likeliest to be co-wolves with my other suspects, Pitch and Boro) was based on a terrible foundation, I think it was a rather good three way coin toss, if you will!

What else can I say? I know the real decision toDay is up to Pitch and Soriman, not me or Morsul. At least that's two known innocents. I don't really have any options but to trust you guys. That could be a depressing thought, but this game has been a ride and it feels like it's gone on for an aeon, so to be entirely honest, I'm quite happy to push the final responsibility on your shoulders. No pressure. ;-)

But I just want to say that personally, I think the idea of me bussing my fellow Legate yesterDay is absolutely insane. I could also remind you guys that my vote for Sally was the one to seal her fate without a doubt. If I said I never make bold moves as a wolf I'd be lying, but I am nowhere near that ruthless.

[Pitchwife]

OK, I'm here.

On the Night kill: I don't think the wolf was just being sporting by sparing a known innocent, but perhaps they thought Soriman had dropped out, or was liable to modfire for his second non-vote, or might simply miss the vote again. In any case I don't think it's unfair to say that Boro would have been a more formidable opponent toDay, so eliminating him instead makes sense.

Also his death points rather obviously to Lommy whom he suspected and voted yesterDay. But there my difficulties start, for how much sense exactly would it make for Lommy to kill Boro? She speculated a lot about Boro and Legate being packmates yesterDay. Wouldn't it have been better for her to kill, if not Soriman, then either Morsul or me and persuade the remainder to help her lynch Boro? Especially after Boro criticised her vote for Legate who then turned out to be a wolf?

And speaking of that, I know from experience that Legate has no objections to being bussed if it helps the pack to win, but would Lommy as a wolf really have felt that such a sacrifice was necessary when the pack had already lost sally? I mean, the latter I get - if sally was busy and unwell I can even see her volunteering for it. But why ditch your last packmate on the eve of endgame? Were there no other options?


Soriman, are you around? Any thoughts?

[Thinlómien]

Because honestly, if either Soriman or Pitch is a wolf, I'm gonna take it up with the Dead once the game is over.
Oh cmon that’s not even a believable lie. It's not a believable lie because it's not a lie in the first place? I would absolutely give them a thrashing.

But I don't see any reason to doubt Lottie indicating Pitch was dreamt innocent by our seer. (Boro, are you proud of me for understanding a ghost message? :p)

I still don't know why the dead are so certain that Soriman is innocent. They must have concluded it based on the tidbits of information they got from the Moddesses. But as I don't know what those tidbits are, I cannot follow their logic, ergo I cannot be 100% sure. But if a whole dead thread full of innocents (until recently) agreed on the conclusion, I'm inclined to trust them. So I'm like 95% sure Soriman is innocent. (But yes, I would have a few choice words for the dead in the unlikely event of him being a wolf. But I've decided that's out of my hands now.)

So, the last wolf has to be you. It's nothing personal.

[Loslote]

'Yes, I am white now,' said Gandalf. 'Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been.'

It must be remembered that the Stones were originally "innocent," serving no evil purpose.

' "Your information was correct," I said.

--Ghost

[Thinlómien]

Lottie, I understand the second thing you're saying, but why the poem? Are you just asking where Pitch and Soriman are? (In which case... which one is the horse and which one is the rider? :D;))

On the Night kill: I don't think the wolf was just being sporting by sparing a known innocent, but perhaps they thought Soriman had dropped out, or was liable to modfire for his second non-vote, or might simply miss the vote again. In any case I don't think it's unfair to say that Boro would have been a more formidable opponent toDay, so eliminating him instead makes sense.I don't know; with my logic Soriman getting modfired wouldn't really change anything, as it would only come to effect at the end of the Day? I mean whether or not Soriman is around, it's victory if we lynch a wolf, and defeat if we lynch an innocent. The only difference is that if we win, then Soriman can say he survived until the end of the game if he's not modfired.

Otherwise... I have nothing to add, except I agree with your questions. *shrug emoji*


edit: xed with the resident ghost... my question is referring to her earlier message.

[Loslote]

"Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes."

--Ghost

[Pitchwife]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTT: The King of the Golden Hall
Yet in doubt a man of worth will trust to his own wisdom.

Hail, fair spectre! I'll try to heed your words. (And lovely choice of quotes btw!)

Also it would be remiss of me not to thank the Dead for saving my life. I can't wait to find out what was going on behind the curtains of the otherworld yesterDay.



Everything was like "looks innocent but could be a bold wolf" or "looks wolvish but could be a confused innocent". I thought whatever I did would be quite likely to be wrong and doom the village (yes, maybe I thought it was about me more than it actually was)
This is so much like me it isn't funny.

[Thinlómien]

Ok so the dead are convinced Soriman is innocent beyond doubt?

I'm sorry but without an actual explanation that's only 95% certain for me.

But that doesn't make a difference. I have already voted for Morsul (who, therefore, is 95% likely a wolf), and Morsul has voted for me.

Even if Pitch somehow had the brainwave to vote for Soriman (which he has not indicated), Soriman would likely not join his vote, so there's no way Soriman will get lynched toDay.

So we don't need to worry about it.

I don't know why I'm even writing this post... probably because it is quiet and I have already voted and said what I have to say.

Lottie, you got any other thoughts to share? Or quotes just for fun? (<- but not anything that might confuse us, please!)


edit: xed with Lottie and Pitch!

[Morsul the Dark]

So many words to obfuscate and confuse (https://youtu.be/VvPaEsuz-tY). I’ve given my thoughts unless a direct question is asked I have nothing to add Lommy is the wolf and writing essays to confuse and discombobulate.

[Soriman the Whide]

Many appologies for missing deadline, I missed it by 5 mins caught up doing other things.

I'll be voting today, probably quite early, I never suspected Morsul before but after reading the ghost I think he looks pretty bad. Gonna take another look though.

[Pitchwife]

Lottie, I understand the second thing you're saying, but why the poem? Are you just asking where Pitch and Soriman are? (In which case... which one is the horse and which one is the rider? :D;))

That depends on Soriman's preferences, I'm flexible.:p


Seriously though, where is the horn that was blowing = Boromir! With him gone, the remaining innocents must trust their own wisdom.

[Pitchwife]

I'll be voting today, probably quite early, I never suspected Morsul before but after reading the ghost I think he looks pretty bad. Gonna take another look though.
Why do you think the ghost messages make Morsul look guilty rather than Lommy?

[Loslote]

Seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill.

--Ghost

[Soriman the Whide]

Why do you think the ghost messages make Morsul look guilty rather than Lommy?
I missed the Ghost post about not going to the elves and also thought that "Yet in doubt a man of worth will trust to his own wisdom." was posted directly after Lommy but it wasn't.


Yeah after not suspecting Morsul for the whole game, reading missed ghost posts I'm fairly certain my vote is going for Lommy.

[Thinlómien]

Ok so the dead are convinced Soriman is innocent beyond doubt?

I'm sorry but without an actual explanation that's only 95% certain for me.

But that doesn't make a difference. I have already voted for Morsul (who, therefore, is 95% likely a wolf), and Morsul has voted for me.Just for clarification, I'm not trying to say Morsul is 95% likely a wolf because I voted for him :D (I wish I had that power!), but that since I'm 95% sure Soriman is innocent, I'm 95% sure Morsul is a wolf.

I can't wait to find out what was going on behind the curtains of the otherworld yesterDay.I really want to know everything they said during the game, and the clues they got! Just my luck to stay alive until the end in a game where the dead have a lot to do.

And I think Lottie is saying she's personally unsure about me and Morsul. Well, that's not very helpful.

That depends on Soriman's preferences, I'm flexible.I think I just choked on my tea.

Seriously though, where is the horn that was blowing = Boromir! With him gone, the remaining innocents must trust their own wisdom. Fair point. Hard of me to think of him as the paragon of innocence since I spent the whole game not being able to trust him, but the village is certainly quieter without him.

Many appologies for missing deadline, I missed it by 5 mins caught up doing other things.It's okay, it happens to everyone. :) I could tell you an anecdote about the weirdest explanation I've heard for a (near) missed deadline in a ww game, but I would rather forget it myself. :eek:

So many words to obfuscate and confuse. I’ve given my thoughts unless a direct question is asked I have nothing to add Lommy is the wolf and writing essays to confuse and discombobulate.I am merely defending myself against the arguments that have been made against me after I departed yesterDay. Long or short, that's a matter of playing style. Confusing? I admit my ww playing style often resembles stream of consciousness, so maybe. But if it meant I was a wolf, I'd be a wolf in every single game.


edit: xed with the 3 last

[Soriman the Whide]

Do you want to vote first Pitch?

[Morsul the Dark]

m
I am merely defending myself against the arguments that have been made against me after I departed yesterDay. Long or short, that's a matter of playing style. Confusing? I admit my ww playing style often resembles stream of consciousness, so maybe. But if it meant I was a wolf, I'd be a wolf in every single game.


edit: xed with the 3 last

Maybe not every time. At least this time

[Morsul the Dark]

Do you want to vote first Pitch?

Even if it’s me vote your thoughts.

[Pitchwife]

On the other hand, Morsul could have killed Boro to frame Lommy and hoped I'd help him lynch her. I suspected her yesterDay and said that I was ready to vote her before I had to vote Legate to save myself, so that might have seemed a viable strategy.

[Pitchwife]

Even if it’s me vote your thoughts.
I second that. And I'm not confident enough about either to vote just yet.

[Thinlómien]

Yeah after not suspecting Morsul for the whole game, reading missed ghost posts I'm fairly certain my vote is going for Lommy.
Please don't if you're innocent.

Have I given you reason to suspect me either?

YesterDay, the wolves would have won if an innocent had been lynched. I voted for Legate, who was a wolf. Morsul voted for Pitchwife, who is innocent.

I am not a wolf.

What ghost posts are you thinking of? Loslote has clearly said she has no opinion and the dead have no info about me and Morsul.

If you have some other reason to suspect me, please tell me, and I can give you an answer, and you can decide what you think based on that.

Don't vote me on a whim.

(Ok, as a generic werewolf advice: don't vote anyone on a whim, ever. It usually doesn't end well.)


edit: xed with everyone

[Morsul the Dark]

I’ll just toss out as a meta Thought. Lommy is “95%” sure Sorimon is innocent I take the dead’s word that he’s definitely innocent. But it would be Hilarious if that 5% was correct.

[Thinlómien]

I’ll just toss out as a meta Thought. Lommy is “95%” sure Sorimon is innocent I take the dead’s word that he’s definitely innocent. But it would be Hilarious if that 5% was correct.Then I would certainly apologise to you, and - as I believe I've said before :p - take it up with the dead. I agree it would be pretty hilarious (but not gonna lie, also frustrating!)

[Pitchwife]

OK, I think I just pieced something together.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbit: Riddles in the Dark
I guess it’s a choice feast; at least a tasty morsel it’d make us, gollum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silmarillion: Of Turin Turambar
As thralls thy mother and thy sister live in Dor-lómin, in misery and want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FotR: The Breaking of the Fellowship
Your own way you alone can choose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silmarillion: Of Beren and Luthien
The wind wails,
The wolf howls.

Morsel = Morsul (obvious)
Dor-lómin = the plague that killed Lalaith, borne on a cursed wind from Angband
Morsul = Black Wind
The wind wails, the wolf howls = Black Wind is a wolf?

[Morsul the Dark]

OK, I think I just pieced something together.



Morsel = Morsul (obvious)
Dor-lómin = the plague that killed Lalaith, borne on a cursed wind from Angband
Morsul = Black Wind
The wind wails, the wolf howls = Black Wind is a wolf?

I’m not a wolf but if I killed based on that interpretation I’d be completely ok with that because that’s badass.

[Pitchwife]

Mind you, if I was Kath's last dream then the Dead don't know this for sure. If I read correctly that's what they believe, as with me yesterDay, and with two wolves on the Dead Thread this has to be taken with caution.

[Morsul the Dark]

My only counter of it is “the wind wails” is separate from “the wolf howls” but still I’m ok losing based on that interpretation

[Soriman the Whide]

Dor-lómin = the plague that killed Lalaith, borne on a cursed wind from Angband


Is it?

[Morsul the Dark]

I’m about to go back from lunch break you all have fun.

Just to reiterate
Lommy is the wolf
I’m not

Sorimon vote however makes sense to you

Pitch’s interpretation of the Fhost’s post is incorrect but cool so I’m ok getting killed for it but it’ll lose the village the game.

Edit: meta note thanks for keeping my mind off how much I hate selling credit cards lol.

[Thinlómien]

I'm also off for (late, I know) dinner. At the moment, I have very little to add to what I've said before.

I'm happy to answer any questions that arise.

If you vote while I'm gone please please think it through.

I don't know about Pitch's ghost interpretation. Like, I get "the wind wails, the wolf howls" could be about Morsul ("dark wind") being a wolf, but otherwise not sure it adds up.

I still think Lottie saying "Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both yes and no" and "Advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise" mean that she/ the dead don't have an opinion she's comfortable stating. (Which btw I still think is not very helpful, because it's literally a matter of life and death toDay.)

[Soriman the Whide]

Lommy, frankly I did not suspect you very much throughout the game aside from how often and how much you post. Morsul was suspected even less throughout and I'm not buying Pitch's interpretation of the ghost.



YesterDay, the wolves would have won if an innocent had been lynched. I voted for Legate, who was a wolf. Morsul voted for Pitchwife, who is innocent.


This doesn't prove anything, you voted early for Legate as insurance for today if you wolves couldn't convince the mob to lynch an innocent.

[Loslote]

I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood.

As thralls thy mother and thy sister live in Dor-lómin, in misery and want.

We are lost, lost,' said Gollum.

--Ghost

[Loslote]

'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly.

As thralls thy mother and thy sister live in Dor-lómin, in misery and want.

I guess it’s a choice feast; at least a tasty morsel it’d make us, gollum!

I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale.

--Ghost

[Soriman the Whide]

So the ghost doesn't know for certain but believes Morsul is innocent?(assuming they cross posted with Lommy)

[Loslote]

Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment.

--Ghost

[Soriman the Whide]

I'm being trolled by a ghost help!

[Soriman the Whide]

Pitch if you trust me as innocent and i'm correct in my understanding we could tie up the votes and leave it up to the dead.

[Loslote]

"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer," said one of the trolls.

--Ghost

[Morsul the Dark]

They’re saying they suspect me but don’t know

[Pitchwife]

Dor-lómin = Thinlómien
morsel = still Morsul

The Dead don't know for certain which of them is the wolf, but they fancy it's the latter?


Anyway:
I still think Lottie saying "Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both yes and no" and "Advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise" mean that she/ the dead don't have an opinion she's comfortable stating.
This is probably right, and let's not rely too much on the Ghost.

[Loslote]

"Your information was correct," I said.

--Ghost

[Thinlómien]

I think I'm not following Lottie anymore (sorry Boro!).

Originally Posted by The Hobbit: Roast Mutton
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer," said one of the trolls.
--Ghost What is this supposed to mean now?

[Soriman the Whide]

I've been mistrusting Lommy based on misreading something, I don't see how we can go on anything but gut feeling with no help from the dead.

It just depends on whether or not Lommy was framed with the night kill or not and with my missed vote yesterday I think Lommy believed they stood the most to gain by bumping off boro in the night.

Do you mistrust Morsul that much Pitch?


Edit: Morsul had the most to gain by killing me I think.

[Morsul the Dark]

I think I'm not following Lottie anymore (sorry Boro!).

What is this supposed to mean now?

It’s a joke about trolling

[Soriman the Whide]

Wait my analysis is wrong, Morsul stood the most to gain by killing Boro. If I died in the night pretty sure Boro changes his vote to Morsul.

Yeah i've almost convinced myself enough now.

[Thinlómien]

Lommy, frankly I did not suspect you very much throughout the game aside from how often and how much you post. Morsul was suspected even less throughout and I'm not buying Pitch's interpretation of the ghost.I just post a lot because I have no life. :p

This doesn't prove anything, you voted early for Legate as insurance for today if you wolves couldn't convince the mob to lynch an innocent.I would argue that I would never have the nerves of steel to drag the game out like that intentionally, but I know that's a very personal argument and you have no reason to trust me on this.

But I would rather ask that how is it not a million times more suspicious that Morsul started yesterDay by trying to orchestrate a bandwagon against someone we now know is innocent?

I think he knew Pitch looked bad based on his interactions with Sally and tried to push the village that way. And I mean look at it, it worked - pretty much everyone suspected Pitch yesterDay and he was almost lynched.

It’s a joke about trolling And you say I'm making you sound smarter than you are! :p But yes, why didn't I get that? *deep sigh* (I thought it was something about sheep = ordos getting lynched yesterDay, toDay and toMorrow, but that didn't make any sense.)

[Pitchwife]

It just depends on whether or not Lommy was framed with the night kill or not and with my missed vote yesterday I think Lommy believed they stood the most to gain by bumping off boro in the night.

Do you mistrust Morsul that much Pitch?
Morsul always is a bit of a cowboy - impulsive, straightforward, often a bit crazy. Doesn't overthink things, is rather carefree, it's all just a game. All this makes it easy to see him as innocent, but I think it's just his style regardless of role. What little memory I have of a Morswolf is 10 years old and hazy, so I can't say how much it differs from his normal self, but I'd guess: not very much.


The main point speaking for Lommy in my mind is her vote yesterDay. Legate wasn't suspected heavily by anybody else, it's not like he'd have been toast toDay anyway, there was absolutely no need to bus him like that. So why?


OK, if she's innocent she was very lucky to hit the one wolf with a three-way cointoss, whereas as a wolf she would have known. But that's hardly conclusive.

[Thinlómien]

Anyway,

I think I've said several times that I have little to add anymore, and even less that isn't "I would never x or y as a wolf because I'm not that kind of person" which I know isn't helpful, so...

Choose wisely.

And whatever happens, it's been one utumno of a game, and either way it ends now and we can all happily dissect it together soon. I have so many questions to all the special roles and also the moddesses.

Now it's past 11pm and while I'm not going to sleep, I'm gonna log off and watch something on Netflix and leave all this unpleasant deciding to you, Pitch and Soriman. No pressure. :p I don't envy you! I feel like I've done what I can to assure that we win, and now it's up to you. (And I'm not gonna be too mad if you let Morsul win, let's face it, he's done one hell of a job.)

I will probably still check the thread before going to bed but don't count on me being around before you have to vote.


edit: xed with Pitch, and yeah, nothing to add to that really what I haven't said before. The idea of me bussing Legate doesn't make sense to me either.

[Pitchwife]

Wait my analysis is wrong, Morsul stood the most to gain by killing Boro. If I died in the night pretty sure Boro changes his vote to Morsul.
Why do you think that?


(And I'm not gonna be too mad if you let Morsul win, let's face it, he's done one hell of a job.)
That much is true whatever he is.

[Pitchwife]

The reason I felt Morsul was probably innocent at the end of yesterDay was him second-guessing his vote for me, for which I was of course grateful. But a Morsulf would of course have known I'd turn up innocent if lynched and his hasty vote would have been questioned toDay.

[Morsul the Dark]

I voted Pitch based on their interaction with Sally and the ghosts’ suspicion. Sorimon an excellent cautionary tale of why to choose your own way.

[Morsul the Dark]

The reason I felt Morsul was probably innocent at the end of yesterDay was him second-guessing his vote for me, for which I was of course grateful. But a Morsulf would of course have known I'd turn up innocent if lynched and his hasty vote would have been questioned toDay.

A Morwolf would’ve pushed a pitch lynch since it would’ve won him the game. Lommy had the benefit of a head start on an innocent to play the card he did .

[Morsul the Dark]

If I were the wolf leaving the vote to the dead with a newly arrived seer would be madness.

[Pitchwife]

If I were the wolf leaving the vote to the dead with a newly arrived seer would be madness.
But isn't that just what you did by voting first thing in the morning?

[Pitchwife]

No sorry scratch that, you're talking about the three-way tie you suggested at the end. Fair point.

[Morsul the Dark]

Also for Pitch (https://youtu.be/oVgrlqmg0hU)

[Morsul the Dark]

Just gonna toss it out there, if we tie it goes to the Dead Thread where they have two wolves to deal with we only have one. I mean they have a decent chunk of Ordos and they all know each other’s alignments but I’m not sure if we’re safer with us tying or not(I mean probably not they suspect me we know so the dead would lose us the game.) I guess the question is do you want to choose we win or let the Dead choose we lose.

Or if they’re reading this I assume they are, your suspicions are wrong. But you don’t have a seer dream to prove it so oh well. Also Hi Boro (https://youtu.be/JQP7aclnrIk)! I had No One to talk to yesterday and was just posting to myself thankfully Mod BG was here for a minute!

[Soriman the Whide]

If a Morwolf pushed for Pitch to be lynched then he would lose the game when the ghost proved Pitch innocent.

[Morsul the Dark]

If a Morwolf pushed for Pitch to be lynched then he would lose the game when the ghost proved him innocent.

No. Pitch would’ve died then I* would have nightkilled and won.

*In this hypothetical

Legate, Lommy, Pitch, Morsul, Sorimon, Boro

2wolves 4 ordos

Lynch Pitch

2 wolves 3 Ordos

Nightkill

2/2 wolves win.

[Pitchwife]

Just gonna toss it out there, if we tie it goes to the Dead Thread where they have two wolves to deal with we only have one. I mean they have a decent chunk of Oreos and they all know each other’s alignments but I’m not sure if we’re safer with us tying or not(I mean probably not they suspect me we know so the dead would lose us the game.) I guess the question is do you want to choose we win or let the Dead choose we lose.
Yes, there are wolves on the Dead Thread but they're outnumbered 5:2. There's a small chance of the dead wolves messing with the voting, but I trust the dead ordos (not oreos, which is a sweet, which is not saying the Dead ain't sweet!) + Ranger + Seer have got their act together and will take precautions.
And you were fine with us tying yesterDay when it was my head on the block and not yours.

[Morsul the Dark]

I wonder if Boro was dreamed. Because if he was it would’ve been hilarious if Lommy had killed me and had all known innocents around them. Dammit I can wait to read the dead thread bet they’re having a blast.

[Morsul the Dark]

Yes, there are wolves on the Dead Thread but they're outnumbered 5:2. There's a small chance of the dead wolves messing with the voting, but I trust the dead ordos (not oreos, which is a sweet, which is not saying the Dead ain't sweet!) + Ranger + Seer have got their act together and will take precautions.
And you were fine with us tying yesterDay when it was my head on the block and not yours.

I was fine with a tie because they had a new seer with one extra dream and factual information to share with them. They didn’t get any new information today. Or at least not anything it seems to break the 50/50 shot.

[Pitchwife]

No. Pitch would’ve died then I* would have nightkilled and won.

*In this hypothetical

Legate, Lommy, Pitch, Morsul, Sorimon, Boro

2wolves 4 ordos

Lynch Pitch

2 wolves 3 Ordos

Nightkill

2/2 wolves win.
This is correct and also does away with what I said in #574.

[Soriman the Whide]

Oh yeah duh! I'm maybe not thinking too clearly haha it's late.

[Morsul the Dark]

Ok I’m sitting in the parking lot outside of work I should probably not sit here for another hour and a half.

[Soriman the Whide]

This post by Morsul;

Sorimon last to vote.
Pitch 2
Legate 2
Lommy 1

Sorimon I hope you’re thinking over your vote. Hell you can vote me if that feels right. Just vote whoever feels best.

My last post before missing the deadline;

Boro's defence seems pretty strong, strong enough to avoid my vote although I as he admits himself there are holes.
I'm leaning towards Pitch based on the way sally and pitch worked together to sow confusion at the end of the last day.
It's also tempting to go with Thinlómien vote for Legate but he kinda crushed my accusation so I think i'm going to go with Pitch today.

[Thinlómien]

Ok I'm not sleeping so I might just as well pop in and say that my advice is obviously that you both vote Morsul because it eliminates the risk of the wolves taking advantage if the innocents in the dead thread disagree with each other. I mean who knows what's going on in there. That is the safest course of action.

But I know you aren't likely to just take my word for it, so if you are unsure, I think making a tie and letting the dead decide would be a very appropriate ending for this game - and even though Boro probably disagrees, I think it's fine to leave it up to a coin toss in ww if you have weighed the matter over and over and you just don't know.

I mean it's a 50-50 chance. Statistically that's very decent odds.

I'm rooting for you.

[Soriman the Whide]

Sorry Morsul last time I had this feeling in my gut I should've stuck with it and voted legate. If i am right; well played, I never suspected a thing.


++Morsul

Edit: X-posted

[Morsul the Dark]

Awesome vote! Wrong but you did it! Congratulations on your first game of WW Pitch can still save it but otherwise sorry for the loss on your first go around.

[Morsul the Dark]

Pitch your only choice is to kill me and lose or tie and let the dead probably kill me and lose. Much easier choice (https://youtu.be/kaTi6Iwvfls)

[Pitchwife]

Oh yeah duh! I'm maybe not thinking too clearly haha it's late.
Welcome to my world.


Ok I’m sitting in the parking lot outside of work I should probably not sit here for another hour and a half.
I feel you.



My reason says Lommy is innocent. My guts say Morsul is. So far my guts have been right when they told me someone was innocent (Greenie, Boro), so dare I trust them again?I



I think I do.


++Lommy


If you're innocent, this was just the last of several blunders from me in this game, and I apologise.
Morsul, if you're the wolf, hats off, that was awesome!


Soriman - don't just follow me or the Dead. Think for yourself, vote accordingly. If you screw up, it's no catastrophe, there's always a next game (I hope).


Á vala Manwë!

[Soriman the Whide]

Oh man we still gotta wait for deadline?!

[Morsul the Dark]

Well it’s up to the dead y’all should probably just vote now

[Pitchwife]

And look, I happened to tie it after all!:D

[Pitchwife]

The Dead Thread is boiling now.

[Loslote]

As all things come to an end, even this story, a day came at last when they were in sight of the country where Bilbo had been born and bred, where the shapes of the land and of the trees were as well known to him as his hands and toes.

I once saw him sitting alone on the top of the Carrock at night watching the the moon sinking towards the Misty Mountains, and I heard him growl in the tongue of bears: "The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back!"

It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.

--Ghost

[Morsul the Dark]

I mean my easy advice to the dead is Lommy is the wolf but yaknow y’all do you.

[Morsul the Dark]

Do I get pity points for just being rear ended?

[Galadriel55]

Do I get pity points for just being rear ended?

:( Sorry to hear that!

[Pitchwife]

Do I get pity points for just being rear ended?
You mean IRL? Aw, that sucks.


You know, this could be the first WW game on the Downs won by the Dead not the Living.

[Morsul the Dark]

Fender bender no huge deal. But dang.

[Pitchwife]

As long as it's the other person's fault, and their insurance pays... In traffic, unlike in war, wounds in the back are more honourable.

[Thinlómien]

Oh my god

(yes I am awake)

so we're really in the hands of the dead now :eek:

I don't think I will sleep.

Dead people,

I don't even know what to say.

Except what I already said to Pitch and Soriman.

Please think.

Well this is a crazy game for sure and seriously Morsul, well played.

Also I'm sorry about the car, that sucks. :( Glad that it sounds like you're okay though.

(Also language barriers and 1.30 am - I mean I do think my English is fluent but I had to google what the expression "rear ended" means since I don't know anything about cars - so sorry if you meant something else than your car getting bumped in the back with another car.)

[Morsul the Dark]

No the car thing is right

[Thinlómien]

No the car thing is right:( that really sucks, I'm sorry.

[Pitchwife]

You know what would be insane? The Dead were wrong, Soriman is the last wolf and dances on our graves. (Improbable, but I'd laugh my head off.)

[Thinlómien]

Also Pitch, I guess I could be mad, but I kinda promised I wouldn't be, so I'm not, and apology accepted. Like I said, absolutely crazy game, and amazing whatever happens.

But I am very much hoping not to get lynched also because getting lynched as an innocent on the last Day always feels like a personal failure (even though I guess it's usually just a sign the wolves played well).

At least I can pat myself in the back for getting Wolfate lynched yesterDay - yes I'm taking the credit for that since Pitch voted in self-defense. #i tried

Or perhaps I should give the dead the credit for breaking the tie in the correct way, but I feel like they had extra help from the seer that we didn't, so it shouldn't count :p

Anyway, kinda fun that the buzz is in the dead thread now. We're just chilling here, it's out of our hands. I kinda enjoy it :D

[Thinlómien]

You know what would be insane? The Dead were wrong, Soriman is the last wolf and dances on our graves. (Improbable, but I'd laugh my head off.)
Me too.

I mean I would defenestrate the whole dead thread first, but then I would just laugh.

And perhaps Soriman would deserve to win. I mean he had a little help from the dead but he could have still messed it up I guess.

(I mean I still think it's Morsul, not Soriman, but I'm having mild last minute hysteria. At least I don't think it's you, Pitch.)

[Pitchwife]

But I am very much hoping not to get lynched also because getting lynched as an innocent on the last Day always feels like a personal failure (even though I guess it's usually just a sign the wolves played well).
Lynching an innocent on the last Day is a worse failure, I'd say.:confused:

[Thinlómien]

Lynching an innocent on the last Day is a worse failure, I'd say.:confused:Well yes, but at least I won't be in that position in this game.* Frankly it's a relief. :D I kinda hate living until the last Day and I don't know how it happens almost every single time. Like statistically unbelievably often.

Anyway whatever happens, this was a much better game for me than the previous one where I was the ranger, failed to protect anyone, and was absolutely manipulated by the wolves and the cobbler. It was terrible! Even if I came to my senses on the last Day, it was too late. This game has given me back my confidence that I'm at least not absolutely useless at this game.

(*Unless Soriman is the wolf and not Morsul.)

[Morsul the Dark]

I’m seriously hoping it’s actually Sorimon just on principle for us all to be wrong is just Chefs Kiss

[Morsul the Dark]

Can we look in the dead thread yet? They Must’ve voted by how I want to know if we(the village) Lost!

[Morsul the Dark]

I don’t wanna wait one minute!

[Thinlómien]

I’m seriously hoping it’s actually Sorimon just on principle for us all to be wrong is just Chefs KissAnd the dead to be the most wrong of all *glare glare*

I don't know. One minute to go. What an insane game it's been either way.

[Thinlómien]

I don’t wanna wait one minute!Wait if Gal again takes like 15min to count the stuff and post the narration :eek:

[Galadriel55]

DEADLINE.

Stop posting.

The result of the Day will be revealed with the narration soon. Yes, it deserves the suspense. (And wolves, please don't ruin it).

In the meantime, all hell has broken loose and the borders between the worlds have blurred. You suddenly notice the phantoms of the dead walking among you, yet their words remain cryptic. The dead also please do not spoil the narration, but are welcome to communicate with the Living on other subjects in this thread.

[Boromir88]

But this is all messed up because I'm just enamored that she's arguing with a dead person (me) as if she doesn't argue with herself enough as it is. :rolleyes:

Do we have even numbers here? Let's just split our votes and lynch them both. Pitch and Soriman survive. Village wins.

Gah! It's not that simple when you know there are 2 wolves around who are capable of planning some last minute funny business. We're not all as cavalier with our votes as you are Morsul!

Originally Posted by Formendacil
EDIT: xposted with Boro. I swear...
I'm hungry and no one wants my judgement to be influenced by getting hangry. So be done with it now and go get the food.

Or everyone else just vote for Pitch for this comment?

Would you like us to get you a cup of coffee too while you wait? Oh you would? *sneezes in cup*

--GhostOmir88

[Morsul the Dark]

Fine I’ll drive home and hopefully it’ll be up by then.

[satansaloser2005]

I know something you don't know.... but instead of gloating more about that, I'm going to take another narcotic to help with this pain. I've been waiting so I could stay clear enough to post and vote as needed.

[Galadriel55]

Wait if Gal again takes like 15min to count the stuff and post the narration :eek:

Hey! I am one person trying to catch up to all of you. Also, I am half-way through writing it and it's the longest and most epic narration yet, as it should be. Gimme a few minutes!

[Huinesoron]

I did the best I could. There we were with the wolves going mad underneath us and the forest beginning to blaze in places...

~Huinespectre

[Thinlómien]

Sorry Gal, you have been doing a great job but some of us don't know if they're dead or not or if we won or lost so excuse my nerves :eek::eek:

Also I don't know if I'm gonna read this discussion before the narration because Boro is already giving me headache. (Hello my dear friend, I didn't miss you. :Merisu:)

[Huinesoron]

And behold! in our need chance brings to light the -[Vote] of Power. It is a gift, I say; a gift to the foes of Mordor. It is mad not to use it, to use the power of the Enemy against him. The fearless, the ruthless, these alone will achieve victory. What could not a warrior do in this hour, a great leader? What could not [Soriman] do? Or if he refuses, why not [Pitchwife] ?

Nahhhh - let the Dead sort it out instead.

~Huinespectre

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Wait if Gal again takes like 15min to count the stuff and post the narration :eek:
You try to bear with us for the short time...
Fine I’ll drive home and hopefully it’ll be up by then.
You drive home safely...
I know something you don't know.... but instead of gloating more about that, I'm going to take another narcotic to help with this pain. I've been waiting so I could stay clear enough to post and vote as needed.
...and you take good care of yourself, sestra.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by "The Hobbit"
I did the best I could. There we were with the wolves going mad underneath us and the forest beginning to blaze in places...~HuinespectreWell that's not ominous at all...

To quote the wrong fandom: "I have a bad feeling about this."

Now I'm off to brush my teeth and change into pjs. Thankfully I only have work at 10 tomorrow but it's still insanely late. (But I won't sleep until I've seen the narration.)

[Pitchwife]

Quote: Or everyone else just vote for Pitch for this comment? Morsul's still lynched.
That might actually not have been the worst idea.

[Kath]

When the full light of the morning came no signs of the wolves were to be found.
Useless Kath-Seer Spectre

[Thinlómien]

I know something you don't know.... but instead of gloating more about that, I'm going to take another narcotic to help with this pain. I've been waiting so I could stay clear enough to post and vote as needed.Even though you're an evil furry person, we all salute you for the sacrifice you've made for this game, you're truly an icon (or insane, like the rest of us). *sends kisses* Hope you feel better soon!

[Pitchwife]

Now I'm off to brush my teeth
Who's going to look at you out of the mirror, I wonder?

[Boromir88]

That might actually not have been the worst idea.

I believe that was in reference to your post saying it looked like we were having a blast. :p

Edit: I assure you we were not...well except 2 among us.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

"The Dead are following," said Legolas. "I see shapes of Men and of horses, and pale banners like shreds of cloud, and spears like winter-thickets on a misty night. The Dead are following."
"Yes, the Dead ride behind. They have been summoned," said Elladan.
-I had to at least say something once.

[Thinlómien]

Useless Kath-Seer SpectreWell you got Legate lynched over Pitch yesterDay! That's not useless at all!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Who's going to look at you out of the mirror, I wonder?

You're mixing that up with vampires. Those do not show in the mirror.

But the actual answer is: me, over her shoulder. (Actually given that I'm a ghost, that's sorta creepy.)

[satansaloser2005]

You're mixing that up with vampires. Those do not show in the mirror.

But the actual answer is: me, over her shoulder. (Actually given that I'm a ghost, that's sorta creepy.)

Oddly romantic though.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well you got Legate lynched over Pitch yesterDay! That's not useless at all!

I have a few well-meant words for you when this is over.

[Thinlómien]

You're mixing that up with vampires. Those do not show in the mirror.

But the actual answer is: me, over her shoulder. (Actually given that I'm a ghost, that's sorta creepy.)You are creepy. Full stop.

Evil scheming wolf.

[Huinesoron]

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and YOU'RE ALL WOLVES! ALL OF YOU! BURN THE VILLAGE TO THE GROUND!

~Huinesoron Baggins, on the ragged edge of sanity

[Thinlómien]

Sally and Huinesoron :D:D:D

[Pitchwife]

You're mixing that up with vampires. Those do not show in the mirror.

But the actual answer is: me, over her shoulder. (Actually given that I'm a ghost, that's sorta creepy.)
It was supposed to be a Twin Peaks reference...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Sally and Huinesoron :D:D:D

My reaction exactly!

It was supposed to be a Twin Peaks reference...

Ah, sorry. One of the many gaps in my education.

[Morsul the Dark]

It was supposed to be a Twin Peaks reference...

She’s my cousin (https://youtu.be/xw9bpuJRoyU)

[Galadriel55]

The outlaws knew that this was their last chance to rid themselves of Sauron’s last shapeshifter. Either they would find it among their midst, or they will not live to see the next Day. It was a blessing that Gorlim appeared to them at dawn. He whispered in Ghostlotte’s voice of the innocence of Pitch and Soriman, but counseled the Living that their fallen brothers can only help them so much. True men, worthy men, must write their own destinies.

Lommy and Morsul stood face to face, as realization dawned upon them. Morsul drew his sword first, and Lommy followed swiftly after. (Some have felt a vibration through the air, as if some dead eyebrows just twitched). But they both knew that neither would be able to defeat the other alone, they would need aid from the other outlaws. Soriman lifted his sword and stood behind Lommy, but Pitch moved towards Morsul. “Ghostlotte speaks truly. We must all decide for ourselves, and my heart tells me that Morsul is innocent.”

“But this makes our strength even,” Lommy said. “We should leave it up to the dead to decide which of us two is to meet his forefathers today.”

(A keen person may have caught some words on the wind.
NO.
NO THEY DIDN’T.
Can they not make your own choices? We don’t want to decide the game.
The wind died.)

“Really really good disguise, Sauron’s puppet whichever body you may possess!” were the shouts coming from both sides.

“What a good idea, to leave it to the justice of our fallen. I bet they are having a blast!” said Morsul. “I bet they even have Oreos!”

“They have Beren and Barahir to guide them in their judgement,” Pitch added.

(The heather rustled.
WE ARE NOT HAVING A BLAST.
AND WE DO NOT HAVE OREOS.
AND BEREN’S SPIRIT IS WITH THEM, USING GORLIM’S SHAPE.
Then silence fell.)

“Why does Gorlim not say anything more?” asked Lommy. “The Dead should really give us more information, why are they being so obstinately unwilling to help us in this decision?”

(The water in the lake rippled.
We’ve cleared the names of two of the four survivors. Those living have to do something for themselves.
Do they not realize that even in death, the world is not pure? We have evil spirits among us, who would darken our thoughts and beguile our senses and warp our meager words to you!
The Living are infuriating. They should both die.
They should all die. They’ve just abdicated responsibility for their fate to a bunch of corpses. I don’t know that anyone deserves to survive this.
And it was still again.)

There was a long silence, as the four survivors looked at each other.

(A pine needle fell.
Do they really deserve to be judged so harshly? Can they not trust us, even when death proved us clean?
But how, when we cannot trust ourselves?
A pine cone rolled.)

“Well, it’s out of our hands now,” said Lommy, “I kind of enjoy it.”

(The earth trembled.
Well that does it. She’s in for it. I am getting hungry, and I am voting now, and just for this alone it deserves to be her!
Well, if it was me in their place, she is the one with the innocent behaviour.
Enough! Let us subject them to the trial of the Deadline Chicken!
There was a distant sound of thunder.)

Suddenly, both Morsul and Lommy stepped back, as a humongous chicken fell out of the sky and started thrashing about. It sent feathers flying into everyone’s eyes, and was cawing so loud it made ears pop. Soriman tried to catch the chicken, but it flailed too much and slid out of his grasp. As it regained footing, its eye turned on Pitch, and it immediately tried to peck his eyes out. Pitch barely escaped the vicious animal but tripped over a tree root as he was scrambling back. Morsul reached to help him up, but he underestimated the chicken. The animal was rabid and beyond all reason. As its evil eye landed on Morsul, it clawed at him and pecked his head. Morsul tried to defend himself, but to no avail - his arms were no match for the bird. Eventually, his arms went limp.

But at that moment the world itself seemed to have bokeh asunder. What must have been a hundred chickens fell out of the sky. And with them came the shades of the fallen, all the outlaws that once have sought refuge on the shores of Tarn Aeluin.

When the chickens were cleared and the feathers and the dust settled, the living could see clearly: Morsul’s form lay dead in its human shape. And Lommy too seemed human, very very human.

Everybody looked around in confusion.

“What, you thought I would be the werewolf?” asked Lommy. “Well… I guess you’re right!” Within a moment she was no longer the outlaw that they knew, but a vicious beast. She charged - first at Soriman, who did not raise his sword in time to defend himself, then at Pitch, who fell backwards (again!) over the same tree root. His last cry of “I told you so!” was lost amid the din of the Ghosts.

Having feasted on the prey and the chickens, Lommy licked her chops. She then changed her shape again, turning into a bat, and flew off into the twilight to report her success to the Dark Lord Sauron.





https://media.makeameme.org/created/you-have-chosen-8b1915b1c5.jpg

The Living
Lommy - The One True Werewolf

The Dead
Gorlim (NPC/Ghost)
Galadriel55 (Night 1)
BlindGuardian (Night 1)
Greenie (Day 1 - Ordo)
Formendacil (Night 2 - Ordo)
Hui (Day 2 - Ordo)
Loslote (Night 3 - Ranger)
Sally (Day 3 - Wolf)
Kath (Night 4 - Seer)
Legate (Day 4 - Wolf)
Boro (Night 5 - Ordo)
Morsul (Day 5 - Ordo)
Pitch & Soriman - killed in endgame


WOLVES WIN.


Everyone is now welcome to read the Dead Thread. For those who think it's too long, I would argue that it lacks the Wall of Text posts of the Living, and is generally a highly entertaining read. :D

[Boromir88]

Goodnight Greenie!

I'll take the plunge too and go for the person who I think is acting more suspiciously...wild card...I might disagree with it...holding something back...but didn't want to explain why.

++...

Hey I'm quite proud of the D&D campaign I joined where for my Goliath character I picked up the "disarm" ability because I thought you know getting an enemy to drop a weapon would be quite useful to have...only to find out the factions our group is up against are werewolves and vampires. So I successfully convinced the DM my character was strong enough to disarm vampires...as in literally just rip their arms off. But then vampires can still bite you, so the DM had his vampires go Black Knight to hop on over and attempt to bite me.

--GhostOmir88

Edit: Crossed with the Mod. hehe epic narration. Well, I had your back Morsul. Sadly, the dead outnumbered me.

Well done Lommy and Wolves! Players of the game for me are the 3 ghosts. We would have been stumbling around in total darkness without you. You really saved us and gave us a chance.

[satansaloser2005]

VICTORY! CHEERS, MY SESTRA AND BROTHER SESTRA.

I'm so happy right now. :D

[Loslote]

:eek: What a game!!! Congratulations, wolves, that was a hard-fought battle. It really could have gone either way, but Lommy, you did an incredible job all game long. Well deserved win!

[Soriman the Whide]

Very well played, sorry Pitch & Morsul.

[Thinlómien]

AWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO








YAY

INCREDIBLE


ASDFGHJKLKJHGFDSDFGHJKL

KJHGF







SORRY NO BRAIN


:D:D:D


I LOVE YOU all just so you know

[Huinesoron]

Congratulations wolves! Excellently played, right down to the wire.

G55 - I was doubled over with my hand over my mouth through the entire Epilogue, trying desperately not to wake the house after midnight with fits of laughter. Very good work.

Actual comments in the morning, goodnight you bunch of crazy types.

hS

[Kath]

Ahaha congrats Lommy! :D A very well deserved win. Should've trusted my gut back on Night 2 when I nearly dreamt you instead of sally but I seemed determined to only dream of innocents.

Right, I have to go to bed, and should have done long ago. But thank you everybody for such a fun game. Quote Bilbo and excellent and admirable hobbits and too short a time and all that.

G55 and BG thanks for modding. The Ghost role was fab and I have loved being part of the Dead Thread too.

Until next time!

[Formendacil]

Then at last Turin knew that doom had overtaken him, and that he had slain Brandir unjustly; so that the words of Glaurung were fulfilled in him. And he laughed as one fey, crying: 'This is a bitter jest indeed!' But he bade Mablung go, and return to Doriath, with curses upon it.

'And a curse too upon your errand!' he cried. This only was wanting. Now comes the night.'

But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.

Ghost

[Thinlómien]

You have no idea how happy I am right now

I was so so sure we would lose

like you have no idea

what kind of pits of demotivation I was in for the last two Nights

only to psych myself up to face the Days and finding things unfolding in a manner I could never ever have foreseen

amazing

:D:D

also *sending kisses to Sally and Legate* WE DID IT

[Morsul the Dark]

I don’t care what the narration says a cowboy only goes out one way (https://youtu.be/3edi2Wkr5YI)

[Pitchwife]

WOW


Lommy, that was --- incredible. A well deserved win! *bows*


And I need to get up in 5 hours. See you all tomorrow!

[Morsul the Dark]

Well done Lommy Et al

[Thinlómien]

Yes, thank you everyone xoxo and especially our moddesses, for the ride!

It was a great game. I think both sides did pretty epic things.

I'm off to bed too, but I'll certainly read the dead thread and participate in the post game discussion tomorrow.

Just for the record, I was like 90% telling the truth about everything toDay. I feel like the feelings of despair and hysteria can easily be shared between the wolves and the innocents.

And whoever said I was trying to save Sally while not looking like I'm doing it can pat themselves on the back, because you were right. Also Soriman for saying I voted Legate to look better on Day5. (More about that tomorrow. Day4 was crazy. I didn't want to bus Legate, but let's say I considered my options and decided that taking the chance that he would get lynched instead of Pitch was better than putting all our eggs in one basket. I think it was, dare I say, a coin toss :p whether it would work or not.)


PS. I think Pitch owes me an Oscar (per what he said on Day2) and I owe Morsul an apology. (Also I was very impressed by you in this game in general, including setting the scene for getting Sally lynched on Day3!) Very very sorry but after Pitch being revealed a known innocent, I had no other options.

[Morsul the Dark]

Very very sorry but after Pitch being revealed a known innocent, I had no other options.

Right back at you. We both only had one option. If nothing else we made dead work for it:smokin:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

VICTORY! CHEERS, MY SESTRA AND BROTHER SESTRA.

I'm so happy right now. :D

Cheers, sestra! This was an absolute joy, and an absolutely unexpected and totally insanely epic finale.

All the quotes that occur to me are, sadly, from the wrong fandom.

"A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one."

"You have done that yourself."

(And the latter can actually be applied both to Lommy and to the Innocents.)

***

Seriously - I would not even know where to start - this was a great game on so many levels for so many different reasons. The Ghosts, like I said already a million times, were amazing. Form, Hui, Lottie - your quotes were great and it was a joy to read them even as a Wolf (and even when I was able to decipher only half of them as well as I would like and definitely half as much as they deserved).

My packmates: sally - you held on even under heavy fire AND went away with such a blast, that was amazing. I wanted to say "outing the Seer may have won us the game", but the thing is - this whole game was just a series of these situations that won us the game.

In any case, one thing I need to remark on - you are the first and only person I can claim to have been Wolves with twice in a row and won both times. So, we're officially epic eternal packmates, Sestra Wolfcake.

And Lommy - well your whole performance especially both the Day you voted me and even more now when you were on your own - that was exactly just what I said, a string of situations that won us the game.

I must say I did not believe that we would win, especially given the odds in the final Days (with the info-drops, plus the Dead having the power to decide a tied vote). But I did not believe my eyes when I saw toDay unfold. Lommy certainly managed to convince the Living AND Dead!

I probably have something to say to each of you, but I will try to do so once I have slept, and via reps, if that fits.

Last but not least, amazing narrations, both BG and G55, and thanks for great modding! This was also a great experiment with the Ghost role and now that we have seen it in practice, it can be used in the future and now we have an idea how to balance the environment to support it.

Will be back to respond or say more in the morning... just now... it is two hours past my bedtime.

So thanks all! It was a great game, and one to remember :) (said he whose memory has been proven to be rather imperfect this game! :rolleyes:)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well done Lommy Et al

If you ask me, you were quite a MVP in this one. I was convinced at multiple instances throughout the game that you were going to win the Innocents the game. It was this close.

[Galadriel55]

Great game everyone! I have to say I enjoyed modding this game tremendously, even though it took up way more time than I meant to commit to this game. :D You were all amazing! I was keeping tabs on what I thought were some highlights of the game. I will post that at some point, maybe tomorrow. But for now, may I present, in recognition of your performance and achievements this game - THE WEREWOLF AWARDS! :D

Soriman: 95% Innocent
Boro: Ghostbuster
Formendacil: Saucepan's Lawmaker
Greenie: Fenris Ordo
Huinesoron: Lynched For All The Wrong Reasons
Morsul: The Phantom (with glitches)
Pitch: Honourary Cobbler
Kath: Serious Calf
Lottie: Not The Seer
Sally: Seer By Multiple Requests
Legate: Most Suspicious Squeaky Clean Player
Lommy: Deliberately Confused


And a very special thank you to my co-mod, who wrote most of the narrations and was instrumental in making the DL+6 infodrops happen. BeiGei, your narrations were wonderful and a pleasure to read. You were a great co-mod, and I really enjoyed our doing this together!

[Blind Guardian]

Great game guys! Good job with that win Lommy! Although I was rooting for the village... I swear! It's so hard writing your deaths when I love you all so much. I don't want to see you die!!

I loved the Deadline Chicken and enjoyed co modding with you G55! I'm sorry I wasn't really here the last few days. We've been having all kinds of trouble with the RV.

[A Little Green]

In short Bilbo was "Presumed Dead", and not everybody that said so was sorry to find the presumption wrong.
A Little Ghost

[A Little Green]

Beautiful job, wolves. But the innocents put up a good fight, too - lynching two wolves in a row was impressive. Kudos also to Form, Huin and Lottie for brilliant Ghost performances!

That last Day in the Dead Thread was particularly insane, my favourite moments including
- Morsul in the Living Thread: The Dead must be having a blast
Every non-wolf in the Dead Thread: NO WE ARE NOT
- The anticipated game of Deadline Chicken
- The suggestion that we be allowed to double-lynch Morsul and Lommy (I still think that would have been a great ending :p)
- The suggestion that we just vote for Pitch instead (we might as well have).

Sally, I'm still waiting for those speech-to-text wolf hints you promised. :Merisu:

Seriously though, village, this should teach you never to force dead people to make your decisions for you. :rolleyes:

[A Little Green]

I remember saying, already on Day 2 or something, that one of Sally and Pitch is a wolf, AND one of Lommy and Pitch is a wolf. Note to self: next time you say something like this, when Pitch is proven innocent and Sally is proven wolf, the next logical step is to LYNCH LOMMY. :rolleyes:

[Huinesoron]

Huinesoron: Lynched For All The Wrong Reasons


Story of my lives. :D

Looking back, I'm really impressed with all the wolves - Legate who I never suspected, Lommy who always managed to be so believable that I rejected whatever doubts I had - but most especially Sally. I know you were first to die, but before that happened, you:


Night-killed someone who could only point directly at you, and yet somehow didn't get lynched the following day. There wasn't even that much discussion of how bad it made you look!
Drew out the Seer for your fuzzy fellows to tear apart.
Deprived us of almost any information from the votes! Not voting Day One meant there was no way to track your fellows, and on Day Three you managed to draw I think every single vote onto yourself, meaning the other wolves blended seamlessly into the crowd.


It was a spectacular showing. Bravo.

I also want to call out Boro for spot-on interpretations of the Ghost's meanderings - and for having a name which was really easy to direct replies to. :D Faced with the possibility of needing to clue Kath via the Cats of Queen Beruthiel, and Lommy with Dor-lomin, you were a breath of fresh air.

(I did have Salgant for Sally, which I was quite pleased with, but overall am glad I never needed to employ.)

~

Looking at the game itself... both mods did a wonderful job, and it was good fun having you haunting the DeadThread. There was some confusion over the voting rules; I think someone at one point described the dead as having 1.5 votes, which is probably the best way to put it in future! But once understood, the rules worked very well.

The infodrops were well-tuned; it was fun running through all the consequences of them. Out of interest, what were the possible infodrops that the Wolves rejected?

The Ghost was heaps of fun, but maybe too powerful. We came within a handspan of a final day with three Confirmed Innocents and the ability to easily convey them, which really shouldn't happen. A couple suggestions:

1/ The idea of allowing each quote to only be used once per game sounds like a good way of limiting the Ghost. It means that if you find a perfect line (such as the one with innocent in quote marks), you have to weigh up using it now versus saving it for a maybe Seer reveal later.

2/ Rather than limiting the Ghost to a given number of appearances - we basically sent it in every chance we got here! - how about 'may not be used on consecutive days'? That works for both long and short games, and gives a play-off of "we know a lot now, but what if the Seer gets killed...?'

hS

[Galadriel55]

As promised yesterday, I will post the anthology of some of my favourite moments of the game. I think the Day 5 DT in its entirety deserves to be here, but rather than copy everything over I will merely direct those interested to page 6 of the DT. And now, a few moments that I really enjoyed with the omniscience of a mod.


So, could it be Lottie, Kath and X?

I mean, the vibe sensor is brilliant, it's just colourblind.


That doesn't mean that someone can't luck into a correct answer, but WW is an ever-escalating game of "normally I zig, so I need to zag" and "XXXX seems suspicious, but they always seem suspicious, but it's suspicious that I usually end up not thinking they're suspicious, and it's suspicious that they're aren't suspicious, and even more suspicious that they're a little bit suspicious rather than exact enough suspicious."
To which I'd add "X doesn't suspect me, does that mean they're an innocent who has a good read on me or a wolf trying to buddy up to me? I don't really suspect them either, does that mean I should? If I don't suspect them, is it just because they don't suspect me? But I'm actually innocent, so if they don't suspect me that's OK, isn't it?"

Which is a perfect parody of Day Ones. Both posts make me chuckle.

I agree with your last post: while it looks good, surely it's too easy. I feel like there should be a Law about situations like this--Saucepan's Law or something: if it sees to have been uncovered too easily, it's either completely true or it's totally, horrifically wrong.

SaucepanWolf was before my time, but I wholeheartedly agree that this should be some Law of Too Easy To Be Possible.

Not a fan of Morsul's plans, for reasons that I don't feel confident expressing in public.

Part of me wondered if the reason you could not express it in public was because the Downs would censor all of the batexcrement and bovine feces? ;)

Guiding the Living is like herding cats, so that's a bonus not the meat of the matter.

^.^

I think the serious calf.

Go read the DT for context. ^.^

You tried getting night killed? When?

Legwolf: Wait, we were supposed to kill you?

I'm being trolled by a ghost help!

This was amazing, and Lottie - I love you for putting an actual troll post in there!


Day 2 almost turned into a Gifted vs Wolf wagon race, before the village got distracted by the [then mostly absent] Hui.
Day 3 - when I read Morsul's first couple posts, calling for the village to do as he says or else, my thought was that we clearly have more than one Ghost haunting as he is clearly being possessed by The Phantom! :p In the meantime, Boro was absolutely on point with the Ghost interpretations, he and Form were on the same brainwave. I even thought this Ghost set up is just too easy. But then Legate and Lommy added on some alternative interpretations and questioned meaning, and Pitch brought some absolutely innocent confusion to the mix, and it was balanced again.
And Day 4 - Lommy I still do not get it but you pulled it off so you get all the bragging rights. :D


It was a pleasure to mod with you guys. This was a very fun game to mod - though I did spend quite a bit more time doing this than I expected, I may as well have played for the amount of studying that got done while this went on. *facepalm*

[Galadriel55]

The Ghost was heaps of fun, but maybe too powerful. We came within a handspan of a final day with three Confirmed Innocents and the ability to easily convey them, which really shouldn't happen. A couple suggestions:

1/ The idea of allowing each quote to only be used once per game sounds like a good way of limiting the Ghost. It means that if you find a perfect line (such as the one with innocent in quote marks), you have to weigh up using it now versus saving it for a maybe Seer reveal later.

2/ Rather than limiting the Ghost to a given number of appearances - we basically sent it in every chance we got here! - how about 'may not be used on consecutive days'? That works for both long and short games, and gives a play-off of "we know a lot now, but what if the Seer gets killed...?'

Another possible limitation is if the Ghost could only quote from one text (per Day? per Game?). e.g. Form would only quote from ROTK, Hui would only quote from TH, Lottie would only do The Sil, etc. And I agree about an every-other-Day restriction, I think that can also curb the amount of information flowing backwards to the Living.

Someone asked about infodrops. The first two were fun to write, and BG and I had a plethora to choose from. The third one was more difficult, as generic statements about the game became increasingly narrow. I almost resorted to either/both logic statements to get around that (e.g. either both Kath and Lommy are ordos or Pitch and Boro are not both wolves, but not both). Thankfully there were sufficient normal phrases to avoid that. What ended up going to Sally was:

There was at least one wolf among those who voted for Hui on D2.
At least one wolf did not receive any votes yet.
Both remaining wolves voted for Hui at some point in the game.

I was surprised that she went for #3, which in my opinion gave the most definitive info. But I was not privy to the pack's plans and opinions, so maybe it made more sense from their perspective.

For the final infodrop, the DT knew everyone's alignment except for Morsul and Lommy. And because BG and I didn't think it fair to reveal the roles so openly, we gave the wolves a statement that could apply to either person and opened it up to their suggestions. Evidently no better thoughts have occurred, as that one statement was still the only one on the drawing board by posting time. I was not supposed to be awake at the DL+6 time, but I could not help it, every time I tried to sleep I would keep thinking that I miscounted the votes, or misphrased the sentence, and it would implicate one of the survivors, and I would have to get up and check to make sure it was still good. :rolleyes:

For the future, I would probably make it an implied rule that infodrops will not contain new information that would instantly take the game out of everyone's hands. If it wasn't for the Ghost, it might have been possible to reveal LomWolf and leave it up to the voting to determine the balance. But with a Ghost who can just declare everyone's roles unchallenged, it seemed too unfair.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

G55, since you started about this - if we are talking infordrops, I actually think they are, by themselves, the most dangerous part of the game that can easily get out of hand.

Let me start with the Ghost though - I believe it works fine the way it is and this gameplay has proved it, I think. I would however not be opposed to limiting the quotes in some way like it was suggested simply in order to keep them fresh. It might become repetitive once we have discovered the best universal quote for saying X, and the creativity of the process - which I think should be the main reason for the Ghost to exist - would go out of the window.

But I also acknowledge that the idea to have the Ghost appear only every second day is actually pretty ingenious as limitation. Of all things, that sounds good (and if it is not as good for the village, that could be balanced somewhere else, like by what Gifteds there are etc.). Because having the Ghost appear three times, on an average game, anyway essentially means "every Day". Because:

-Ghost obviously won't appear on Day 1
-and on Day 2 it very likely won't have much information to add anyway
-which means that in most games, it would start appearing from Day 3 onwards. And most games hardly last past something like Day 6. So with three visits, the Ghost could appear nearly every Day.

***

My main problem however is with something else, and like I said, it is the infodrops. In retrospect, I think - despite the fact that the Wolves won - that the rules were strongly on the side of the village (I acknowledge I did not give the rules enough thought beforehand to imagine how it would look in practice; I probably would have said something had I realised it). But:

-while 3 Wolves in a village of 12 was certainly considerably imbalanced in favour of the WWs, and even with 2 Gifteds and the ability of the Dead to vote (which can be ambivalent, as we have seen) the village would still have been at a disadvantage,
-the Ghost returning essentially meant +1 dream conveyed for the Seer even after the Seer had died - that is a big bonus; though even that is arguably not necessarily balancing it (and for example in this game, we Wolves were lucky that the Seer dreamed quite a lot about people who died quickly after - though I guess that also had a lot to do with the numbers, in bigger village this would be less likely to happen.)
-but what in my opinion already went over was the ability of the Dead to decide a tie - I think the Dead's vote should have been counted simply as it was, as the last one cast, and the tie would be broken by whichever vote came first in the Living thread. This would btw also limit the dumping of responsibility on the Dead - while it was entertaining and somehow fitting, I still think it should generally be discouraged, and this would be part of it.
-and finally, what definitely went over, even if we argued that the former didn't, were the infodrops and I think they are problematic for multiple reasons.

Firstly, it puts a terrible pressure on the Mod, and somebody could still theoretically reveal too much to the Dead even by accident.
Secondly and more specifically, it works a bit like a sudoku in the sense that as you go, you crosscheck more and more information. By way of elimination your knowledge rises exponentially, and the longer the game runs, the less space for error there is. You eventually arrive at a point where the next info you'd reveal would simply say "X is a Wolf". We in fact ran exactly into that problem already in our game on, what was it, Night 4? I cannot belive one could possibly run a game that would last, say, six Days. Even with a large village, because information like "at least some Wolves voted in bandwagon for Greenie" may cut away like half of the village.
And thirdly, even the best Mod with the most careful plan not to reveal too much cannot control how the game develops. If you reveal that there is one Wolf among Legate, Morsul and Lottie, and then Lottie is lynched and Morsul Nightkilled, you just gave the village bulletproof info.

(Feel free to disagree)

***

In any case, even if we say that this system is unfair, it obviously poses the question what to do about it. I do not have an answer ready for that. Discarding the whole idea would eliminate 75% of the reason for the Ghost's existence in the first place. I don't want that. One possibility would be for example to limit how often the Ghosts get the infodrops (like also every second Day, or somesuch, starting perhaps with N2 so the first dead person has something to pass time thinking about). But I am not sure whether it is enough, or whether it doesn't have other problems (like making the odd Days uninteresting for the Dead).

The ideal solution of course would be to use the infodrop only in a game where roles of dead people don't get revealed upon death (however I loathe such games). There, either the Dead could get info about everything (ie about both living and dead) in this "sudoku" form and then send it back, or else the Dead could simply just receive the knowledge of everyone's roles after they died - so the roles would not be revealed in the Living thread narration, but in some Dead thread narration - and then they would have to just decide when to send it back. But the second option at least is perhaps somewhat boring and would make the content of what the Ghost is going to say fairly monotonous.

But that would disqualify the use of the Dead in "normal" games, and wasn't the idea to have the Dead in every game?

Anyway, these are my thoughts on future use of these rules. I think this game gave us a lot of input and I am hoping that we can discuss this before some next game where it could be implemented. To be sure however, let me say that despite the fact that I believe this was slightly tilted in the village's favour, the Mods handled it exceptionally, both by providing fairly balanced infodrops and also by modifying the rules ad hoc when it became clear that this would no longer work - I think that kind of common-sense flexibility is important, and it is good if the players can agree on that too, if some rule is discovered mid-game to be "broken" in some way.

***

TL; DR: I don't believe that the Ghost was too powerful; it was the infodrops that were too powerful. We should do something about those while making sure that the Ghost still has something to say. And I would also not have the Dead have a tiebreaking vote, also in order to further motivate the Living to make important decisions for themselves.

[Formendacil]

I agree with Legate's basic premise: that the infodrops are the main source of potential imbalance. I think G55 did great with figuring them out as the game went along, and I think the hardest thing to provide feedback on here would be HOW to find that sweet spot of "some, not too much" info.

I think a Ghost with no info (or only whatever info the Dead may possess--say via the Seer) wouldn't be completely useless if, say, the Ghost had a vote--as distinct from the Dead or perhaps in place of the Dead. That would make for an overall weaker Dead thread, but that's not NECESSARILY a bad thing.

I do still think there should be some limitations on the reuse of quotes--Legate used the word "stale" and I agree strongly. I also think that being limited to only a single quote in the game helps "Phantom-proof" it a little.

(Speaking of which--I was really pleased with the Living for not trying to "direct" the Dead this game. I mean, yes, we were clueless and maybe needed some direction, but it was pleasant to be the Dead without having the Village shouting schemes at us. So kudos for that!)

[Morsul the Dark]

Speaking of which--I was really pleased with the Living for not trying to "direct" the Dead this game. I mean, yes, we were clueless and maybe needed some direction, but it was pleasant to be the Dead without having the Village shouting schemes at us. So kudos for that!)

You mean like me screaming you had a seer?

[Morsul the Dark]

Sorimon I just looked at the admin thread G55 clarifies Kath had one more dream. Vote Lommy let them decided they have extra information

^^^^

[Morsul the Dark]

To Legate’s point one possible way to make the DT a bit more interesting/fun and make the ghost a bit more balanced is to infodrop two pieces of information. One true one false. The DT would then have to discuss which they think is true based on the information they have on hand and the live thread.

For example:

Morsul and Greenie both get 3 votes day 1
The info drop is;
No wolves voted Morsul day 1
No wolves voted Greenie day 1.

Well now the DT has to decide which group of voters is more innocent seeming and could potentially clear them. But also if they choose wrong they might lead the village astray. And of course the live thread will always have to be wary relying on them too much.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I agree with Legate's basic premise: that the infodrops are the main source of potential imbalance. I think G55 did great with figuring them out as the game went along, and I think the hardest thing to provide feedback on here would be HOW to find that sweet spot of "some, not too much" info.
And it is not just about that, the chief problem in my opinion is the "sudoku effect" combined with the unpredictability of how things unfold. I'd be curious to hear more about how did G55/BG experience this having less space to maneuver in for making the infodrops as the game continued.

I think a Ghost with no info (or only whatever info the Dead may possess--say via the Seer) wouldn't be completely useless if, say, the Ghost had a vote--as distinct from the Dead or perhaps in place of the Dead. That would make for an overall weaker Dead thread, but that's not NECESSARILY a bad thing.
That actually sounds good. I think (my memory is hazy) there were similar things in the past, along the lines of that the Dead did not really vote, but they sent a representative who then cast the vote for them. Another option would be to give the Dead two votes this way - one cast by the Dead Thread itself, counted last and therefore with no chance to break a tie, and one cast by the Ghost, at any point they decided, counted just like a normal Living vote. This would have the added value that the Ghost's info would be one Night old (which could be important as we have seen in this game, when the Dead already had Kath and her dream, while the Ghost was still fairly supportive of the notion of the Living that Pitch may be a Wolf).

(Speaking of which--I was really pleased with the Living for not trying to "direct" the Dead this game. I mean, yes, we were clueless and maybe needed some direction, but it was pleasant to be the Dead without having the Village shouting schemes at us. So kudos for that!)
I must second this. In any case I think all the phantom-schemes are just a complete perversion of the game. Then again, there was not really so much the Living could force the Dead to do in this game that would be of use to them.

To Legate’s point one possible way to make the DT a bit more interesting/fun and make the ghost a bit more balanced is to infodrop two pieces of information. One true one false. The DT would then have to discuss which they think is true based on the information they have on hand and the live thread.

For example:

Morsul and Greenie both get 3 votes day 1
The info drop is;
No wolves voted Morsul day 1
No wolves voted Greenie day 1.

Well now the DT has to decide which group of voters is more innocent seeming and could potentially clear them. But also if they choose wrong they might lead the village astray. And of course the live thread will always have to be wary relying on them too much.

This is absolutely terrifying idea, but brilliant in my opinion, and it would be great fun. I am only afraid that while it looks like fun in theory, there's no telling how it would look in practice and whether it would be a fun chaos or just nerve-wrecking chaos.

Most importantly, it, too, would be prone to reveal too much, even more than the normal infodrops. Especially since you would know that one is false, so you effectively are giving TWO pieces of info instead of one. Once the villagers disqualify or confirm one part of the info, they also learn the negative information via the other piece.

Again, it looks good in theory and in isolation. But I think with the infodrops, the key is to imagine what it would look like with them on, say, Day 5.

[Thinlómien]

Lommy: Deliberately ConfusedDeliberately confused about who's a wolf and why the Night kills happened, yes, but I was not lying when I said I couldn't decipher the ghosts' messages. I think Boro and Morsul must have some inhuman powers to have parsed many of them so easily!

That being said: Form, Huin, and Lottie, you totally made the game! The ghost was so fun.

Even though next time, I think it is too powerful. I haven't yet looked at what kind of hints the dead got, but I would probably take those out altogether, and leave the ghost just a messenger of the dead thread's opinions/ a visiting known innocent who gets to express their opinions. Also, I had the same thought as Huin did: there could be a rule like that once a particular quote has been used once, it cannot be used again, because I think it would be both more challenging and more fun if the same quotes couldn't repeat over and over.

Originally Posted by Lommy @Day 3
Not a fan of Morsul's plans, for reasons that I don't feel confident expressing in public.
Part of me wondered if the reason you could not express it in public was because the Downs would censor all of the batexcrement and bovine feces? Oops, this game was genuinely very swearing-inducing because it was so crazy. Also I can see I have been haunting other corners of the internet because these days the autocensorhip gives me trouble it didn't before - but I think it's just fair. Also "bat excrement" is a pretty good expression if I may say so myself. :D But here I was just randomly implying that the wolves could take advantage of Morsul's plans and conveniently without having to think it through and explain how exactly...

And I second Legate that the dead being the tie-breaker by default made this much harder for us. In a normal game, an early misguided innocent vote such as Morsul's for Pitch can doom the whole village. In this game, the village could afford making that kind of mistakes while we had to think really really hard. Partly this is because we were a little time zone impaired (I did say the DL was fine but if I'd known I was going to be a wolf with Legate who's on the same time zone, I may have protested...) but it's not just that. Basically we concluded we needed two innocents to vote for the same other innocent (in a village with only 4 innocents left, that's a tall order) or else we can't really bandwagon on anything, or it's going to look really bad for us, because it will look just like that, two wolves bandwagoning. Especially if we are the ones voting early. A 3-3 situation with the dead as the tiebreaker was something we could not have, because the dead likely had more information (they did indeed) and we would have been in deep trouble if the game continued.

Incidentally, that's why I voted for Legate. I didn't want to bus him, but since I was unsure about our odds of winning on Day4, I figured that my voting him would be the only thing to give one of us a fighting chance if there was one more Day.

My Day4 plans were rather phantomesque and absolutely too ambitious - I was trying to convince Boro that I was wolves with Pitchwife (hence my somewhat more wolvish behaviour than before and also letting Pitchwife off the hook for believing Sally) while trying to convince Pitchwife I was innocent and the wolves were Legate and Boro. I was hoping this would result in a situation where (after Morsul's vote for Pitch), me and Pitch would have voted for Legate and Legate and Boro (and Soriman if he was around) would have voted for Pitch, and it would have been game over and wolf victory. Well that was obviously too complicated to work :D and I see I overdid the "making Boro suspicious of me" part. (Or then Pitch was just too convincingly innocent. I didn't take that into account!)

Anyway I was very afraid that Legate and I would vote and go to sleep early and after we were gone, Boro and Pitch would have a nice little chat and decide we two were the wolves and we'd be done for. (Hence my opening up on Day5 about my pessimism when casting my Day4 vote, switch a few words and it was absolutely genuine.)

Also if anyone wants to know why Boro on N5? Morsul and Boro were almost as good as known innocents to me; I didn't think they'd be under heavy suspicion on the last Day. I obviously had no idea Pitch had been dreamed innocent. I thought the last day would be me vs Pitchwife, and given the events of the previous Day, I wanted rather Morsul and Soriman to decide than Morsul and Boro (whom I had deliberatedly but perhaps short-sightedly convinced of my wolvishness). So I decided to go for Boro - I also thought that if he was around, they could have a nice long chat with Morsul before us Europeans would wake up and they would get to set the tone of the Day, and I didn't want that. Furthermore, I knew Morsul would vote before I'd have a chance to even read the thread, so I thought I didn't want to give him Boro for company who might convince him to rather vote for me than Pitch. Also apologies to Soriman, who albeit having expressed great sharpness for a newbie at times, I thought was going to be much more manipulatable on the last Day than Boro.

(And also, to be honest, I was tired and I didn't have much faith in my chances of winning alone, so I thought I can at least do myself a favour and kill Boro so I don't have to argue with him for the whole miserable last Day. Well... then I ended up arguing with him even though he was dead. Also since Boro had been trying to get killed the whole game, I thought only fair that we'd off him before the end. By the way, Boro, you were a recurring Nightly headache since N2 - we were like "ok so Boro is an ordo pretending to be a gifted obviously - no, wait, but if he was an actual gifted wouldn't he pretend to be an ordo pretending to be a gifted??" :eek:)

Anyway, you can only imagine how surprised I was to log in on Day5 and find out Pitchwife was declared innocent via the ghost and Morsul had already done me a huge favour (or so I perceived it) by going defensive even though no one had really suspected him for Days. I was like "well, looks like I will have a fighting chance after all..."

[Thinlómien]

By the way, I have to say that Legate and I have lived together for 8 years soon (geez we're getting old) and there have been many werewolf games and it's never been a problem until now! We'd never been wolves together before and being in the same room with your fellow wolf during the Days and being unable to communicate... that's the worst thing ever. Especially Day4 and Night5 (when we were not allowed to communicate because one of us was dead and one of us was living) were absolutely insanity-inducing. Fortunately the Moddess was kind enough to listen to my rants so I was just texting her while Legate was sitting literally next to me. :D

Also wolves living together does have the advantage of extra Nightly plotting time. On N4 we came up with a rather complicated, very subtle scheme how to communicate to each other during the Day on the thread - and it turned out to be so complicated and subtle that we missed/misinterpreted each other's communication and it was absolutely useless. :D

[Pitchwife]

Now I've had a decent amount of sleep at last - staying up till after 1am twice a week when you're working isn't healthy at all, and I feel for our Finns for whom it was even worse. Also had a few peeks at the Dead thread - I'll read the whole thing one of these days, but let me say I just loved Formy's colourful expletives ("By Manwë's blue nether regions" :D).

I think I'll start these comments by apologising to Hui for that braindead vote on D2. That was definitely another episode in the continuing series of games featuring Ordwife as the Honorary Cobbler (although TBH I didn't see another option, as I still thought sally was being framed at the time, and I didn't want to vote Lottie or Boro). Also great job picking the Ghost quotes!

Next has to be ++Morsul for MVP. Never ever again pretend you're not smart! You played an awesome game, and I'm sorry it took me too long to trust you on D5 - we could still have won. (Also I hope the car thing will sort itself out.)

Wolves sally, Lommy, Legate - well played, like I said, you deserved to win. I don't think I would have suspected sally without the Ghost info, not until she contradicted herself about her Seer dreams. And it's funny I suspected Lommy on D1 and Legate on D2, but then you, Lommy played the Deliberately Confused part well enough to keep me in doubt. (Btw when I saw your triumph howl post after the final narration I knew exactly how you must be feeling, and I was so happy for you I almost didn't mind losing. These are the moments we play WW for, aren't they?)

Boro - excellent work as a Ghostbuster, and you deserve to be MVP along with Morsul. Having to convince you of my innocence on D4 was tough but fortunately it all went well.

Kath - sorry for my part in drawing you out and getting you Night killed, but I'm glad you dreamed me when you did!

Lottie and Form - you both rocked the Ghost roles, it was both helpful and fun to have you haunting us (especially the troll quote)!

Greenie - wish we could have had you around longer, even if you suspected me for suspecting Lommy who actually was a wolf!:p

Soriman - that wasn't bad at all for a first game! I hope you enjoyed your first foray into this bloodthirsty and mind-twisting corner of the Downs, and we'll see you again!

G55 and BG - thank you both for modding such a great and fun game! I loved the narrations, and the Ghost role was a fun addition to the game.

As for the balance issues that have been discussed, I concur that Ghost + infodrops + tie-breaking Dead vote is a bit much. I'd say



either keep the Ghost and eliminate the drops, so the Ghost can only communicate the speculations of the Dead and dreams of a dead Seer (I almost wrote Songs of a Dead Dreamer here), and also limit the use of quotes
or keep the drops and eliminate the Ghost, and also make the Dead vote count as a normal vote, or have the Dead empower the vote of a living player, as in the last game.

[Morsul the Dark]

Next has to be ++Morsul for MVP. Never ever again pretend you're not smart! You played an awesome game, and I'm sorry it took me too long to trust you on D5 - we could still have won. (Also I hope the car thing will sort itself out.)

A. I’m just waiting to schedule the repairs since the shop is closed until Monday and I couldn’t call them in time yesterday, the fault is very clear so their insurance is not fighting it. So easy peasy.

B. Oh I am very smart(self pat on back) I’m just not a schemer. The “say whatever is your head damn the consequences” thing isn’t an act. A regular remark from my boss is I tell my direct reports too much. But why lie to the people that work under me. They should know the score :rolleyes:. So when I get called out for these deceptions and schemes that’s way too much credit and not in my wheel house. Heck my best defense as a wolf is to pretend to be a simple cobbler Ha

[Blind Guardian]

Heck my best defense as a wolf is to pretend to be a simple cobbler Ha

Then good thing the only cobbler we had in the game was a CobblerMod!

[Loslote]

Just my two cents on the infodrops - I think one way to start balancing them would be to give them after the Ghost has left the Dead Thread. One of the best parts of this game was when the Dead knew more than the Ghost knowing more than the Living, but no way for the Dead to tell the Ghost and limited communication between the Ghost and the Living. Even with the infodrops, the Dead specifically asked GhostHuin to push for Pitch's lynch as our best educated guess, then spent the whole Day panicking about exactly that. :D Moving the infodumps to the start of the Day phase means the Ghost has even more outdated information, but could also open up new options that don't do much good right away but MAY have a payoff later - "Both Gifteds selected ordos", "The person the Seer dreamed got votes the previous Day", "The Ranger almost selected the wolves' target", etc.

Whatever we decide to do with the infodumps - and I think there's a lot of room for mods to change it up, but they'd have to be very careful with how they do it - the Ghost role was a TON of fun. Looking up quotes and flipping through books trying to quickly find something with just the right connotation, for me personally, was probably the most fun I've had in a werewolf game in a very long time, and it's definitely worth including in future games if at all possible!

[Galadriel55]

I was out of commission for a bit but now able to read and post again. In response to Legate's question, making the infodrops progressed from being fun to being very very stressful. I am not 100% certain, but to my memory there was no precedent to this type of thing, and this is the first game where as a mod you can influence the course of the game. It's in your hands to give info that can help one side over the other (also depending on the proportions of the alignments on the DT), clear the path or mislead completely. As the number of Living players gets smaller, and especially once the Gifteds are gone, it's very hard to come up with statements which are broad enough to remain fair game.

The "sudoku" effect is real and foreseeable, but also it's random: as the mod, you can't control which players die or get dreamed, so vaguely-put statements that become clear after 3-4 people die are, I thought, fair game. What really made it snowball was that these statements added up on top of each other. There is a way to make them even more vague, which we almost resorted to on N4 but managed to scrape out of it. You can do logic statements, and with words like either / at least / not both / and other helpful grammar you can make it so the statement fulfils itself only when all people's roles are revealed. An example: either both Kath and Greenie are ordos, or Morsul and Pitch are not both wolves, but not both. Finding out one half of the statement actually doesn't tell you anything about the other half, so long as there are still living Gifteds.

My favourite infodrop though was about the gifteds (only 1 gifted received votes), because it put Kath (who was slightly suspected for "easy votes") together in the same group as Soriman (proposed Seer at one point on the DT) and Leg&Lom (our furries who were regarded as possible gifteds and mildly protected until Kath died and fulfilled that group). I think it doesn't exemplify vagueness to the same degree as the first statement, but it was a good one for the initial confusion element.

Saying all that, I think that the infodrops are good for the DT as they make the Living respect the Dead a little more. However, they should be limited, as with this set-up I think they give too much power. For instance, perhaps the Dead could choose to have an infodrop in place of casting a vote, or in place of sending a Ghost. That way they would have to trade one power for another, rather than having it all. And perhaps the infodrops will no longer be delivered after the Seer dies - though if the Seer dies really early, that might be a bit unfair. My vote as mod is that it's a viable premise but needs to be curbed. I was too preoccupied with giving the Dead some weight, and it turned out a bit too much.

[Galadriel55]

But the real question is... Wolves, why did you kill Form after all? :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

But the real question is... Wolves, why did you kill Form after all? :p

I see this was never answered! (Even though I think we hinted at it in several times.) It was the product of a debate of looking for a Gifted by elimination method - nobody left any Seer hints whatsoever, and in Form's case, it was at least possible that he was the Seer and dreamed of sally. We were aware that it was potentially pointing to sally, but we were like "well, and so what - if he IS the Seer, then we have to kill him anyway". Plus, we hoped that people would think that it was perhaps too obvious a connection, that Wolves would exactly not do that, it might look like somebody is trying to frame sally, etc. That kind of stuff.

Perhaps my fellow Wolves can elaborate if I misinterpreted this, or add their own perspective.