TIG CXVII: GAME Thread:

[Galadriel55]

It has been told that Barahir would not forsake Dorthonion, and there Morgoth pursued him to his death, until at last there remained to him only twelve companions. Now the forest of Dorthonion rose southward into mountainous moors; and in the east of those highlands there lay a lake, Tarn Aeluin, with wild heaths about it, and all that land was pathless and untamed, for even in the days of the Long Peace none had dwelt there. But the waters of Tarn Aeluin were held in reverence, for they were clear and blue by day and by night were a mirror for the stars; and it was said that Melian herself had hollowed that water in the days of old. Thither Barahir and his outlaws withdrew, and there made their lair, and Morgoth could not discover it. But the rumour of the deeds of Barahir and his companions went far and wide; and Morgoth commanded Sauron to find them and destroy them.
- The Silmarillion, of Beren and Luthien




NIGHT 1 has started.
Seer may dream. Wolves may chat, but there is no kill toNight. Everyone else sleep.


Living:
Boro
Formendacil
Greenie
Huinesoron
Kath
Legate
Lommy
Loslote
Morsul
Pitch
Sally
Soriman



If you have not done so already, please turn on your invisible mode.

EDIT: I still see people appearing under Active Users. PLEASE TURN ON INVISIBILITY MODE!

[Galadriel55]

By the will of Sauron, three were chosen to assimilate amongst the outlaws of Barahir. Long they waited, mingling amongst the outlaws, gaining their trust. They sharpened their blades, patiently waiting for the perfect moment to strike. They would not fail their Master. They could not fail their Master!

Finally, in the darkest hour of a moonless night, they struck. Two night watch women stood on top of the great stone wall the outlaws had built as protection from all of the dark and evil creatures that lurk in the Shadows. Little did they know that the evil now lurked within those very walls.

“It is dark tonight,” Blind Guardian said as she watched the silent and black waters of Tarn Aeluin.

“A perfect night for Evil,” replied Galadriel55. “Even the stars seem not as bright…”

“I have a horrible feeling in my stomach…”

“That is just dinner. I told you not to eat Gorlim’s cooking!”

“Well” BlindGuardian started to say. Galadriel looked over at her companion, but she was gone.

“BG? BG now is not the night for games!” She surveyed the nearby tree line with her lantern. The wind rustled the leaves revealing two glowing red eyes. “Oh no…”

----****----


The outlaws of Barahir awoke to the howling of wolves. They quickly realized that their 2 night watchwomen were not at their posts. As the red sun rose, it revealed the terrible truth. A pile of blood and bones was all that remained of their two watchwomen.


++G55

++BG


The outlaws were furious! How dare wolves of all creatures attack two of their own! They quickly identified the paw and claw tracks of 3 wolves.

“Let us take a party and hunt down these animals!” yelled Formendacil.

The others shouted in agreement and took up their swords.

“Dirty wolves!” Pitch yelled.

“Let us form a Great Hunt!” said Gorlim.

But Legate was not so easy to anger. He surveyed the scene. “No, wolves have not done this. This is the work of werewolves!”

And with that the outlaws were afraid. The yelling turned to nervous whispers. They all knew what that meant.

“Regardless, we still have the advantage!” said Gorlim. “Werewolves will not travel in daylight.”

“Unless they are in human form”, Legate countered.

“And there are only 3 of them and 12 of us! I will scout ahead along the northern edge of the lake and return by noon time with news!” he grabbed his sword and shield and left on his mighty horse.


Gorlim was not seen again.


----****----




The Living
Boro
Formendacil
Greenie
Huinesoron
Kath
Legate
Lommy
Loslote
Morsul
Pitch
Sally
Soriman

The Dead
Gorlim (NPC/Ghost)
Galadriel55 (Night 1)
BlindGuardian (Night 1)


It is now Day 1.
Narration credit of BG.

[Boromir88]

I am saddened. The world is made a darker, with the absence of two of its brightest lights. But where there is darkness there still must be light, even if only a dim light. I will not rest until the devilry responsible for their deaths is found and destroyed.

[Morsul the Dark]

Boro posted first.

++Boro

Anyway joke vote aside, here’s a list of players that adds nothing.

Boro-Posted first, in character. Nifty
Formendacil
Greenie
Huinesoron
Kath
Legate
Lommy
Loslote
Morsul
Pitch
Sally
Soriman

[Formendacil]

It is Day 1 and I am around (at least till my very would-be man in his eighties bedtime) but what else is there to say?

[Loslote]

I'm here, I'm here! I spent a lovely morning in the garden. It's time to harden off the seeds - I have some truly delightful tomatoes, artichokes, and cabbage, not to mention the wildest looking morning glory seedling! I see I missed - oh my - three people are dead?!? :o

[satansaloser2005]

And now that the three wolves have spoken, here I am as well! :Merisu:

Right. Whomever killed my Gal is going to face judgement. Show yourselves now, you curs, so we can be done with this quickly and with as little bloodshed as possible. No takers? None? Fine then. Maximum effort.

Okay, I'm actually off to bed soon, but I'm excited to play Werewolf again, and with some new blood. How lovely! I'll be back come morning with hopefully some posts to chew on.

Obviously don't kill anyone while I'm gone. I'll try to be in early-ish.

[Boromir88]

Boro posted first.

++Boro

Anyway joke vote aside, here’s a list of players that adds nothing.


Nice to see you again too.

It is Day 1 and I am around (at least till my very would-be man in his eighties bedtime) but what else is there to say?

Before the end you will be objecting to the existence of Day 1s.

I'm here, I'm here! I spent a lovely morning in the garden. It's time to harden off the seeds - I have some truly delightful tomatoes, artichokes, and cabbage, not to mention the wildest looking morning glory seedling! I see I missed - oh my - three people are dead?!? :o

Hmm...so digging holes have you been? Placing anything else in the ground besides seeds?

And now that the three wolves have spoken, here I am as well! :Merisu:

Right. Whomever killed my Gal is going to face judgement. Show yourselves now, you curs, so we can be done with this quickly and with as little bloodshed as possible. No takers? None? Fine then. Maximum effort.

Okay, I'm actually off to bed soon, but I'm excited to play Werewolf again, and with some new blood. How lovely! I'll be back come morning with hopefully some posts to chew on.

Obviously don't kill anyone while I'm gone. I'll try to be in early-ish.

Interesting choice of words...bloodshed, new blood, chewing. :eek:

[Huinesoron]

Three deaths in the opening narration makes me irrationally panicky. o.O

Anyway joke vote aside, here’s a list of players that adds nothing.


Given that it comes two posts below the same list in the narration... yeah, that's pretty 'nothing'. So why'd you do it?

Before the end you will be objecting to the existence of Day 1s.

Given how many Days 1 get derailed into exactly that kind of debate, I find it a little suspicious that you're courting it.

hS

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Dorthonion! Ah! the wind and the whiteness and the black branches of Winter upon Orod-na-Thôn!
-wait, wrong character. Anyway, despite being encircled by Wolves, I feel very elated at the prospect of sharing a campfire with y'all again. Well, let's see how long that lasts...

I'm here, I'm here! I spent a lovely morning in the garden. It's time to harden off the seeds - I have some truly delightful tomatoes, artichokes, and cabbage, not to mention the wildest looking morning glory seedling! I see I missed - oh my - three people are dead?!? :o
Well technically, it's two. Gorlim merely left...

Anyways, I realise the waters of Tarn Aeluin are bountiful, but planting? We aren't farmers, we are, well, outlaws! More on the hunter-gatherer side, I'd say. But to each their own, I guess.

And cue in Day 1... (I just realised that we are missing Nogrod, not that there are not plenty of us others to get the ball rolling on the first Day). But so far in terms of attendance this looks promising.

I will hop off to gather some quick breakfast in these bushes over there and I'll be back and around, hopefully more people will also start appearing and we can start talking more.

[Morsul the Dark]

{quote Morsul}
Given that it comes two posts below the same list in the narration... yeah, that's pretty 'nothing'. So why'd you do it?

hS

Because I’m bad at in character banter but wanted to participate.

[Thinlómien]

Good morning! err... afternoon?

I can't believe I'm in the blessed/cursed situation that I have an office job that I can do remotely from home so I can ww as much as I... ahem. Now it's my lunch break anyway. ;)

On schedules (since I started): the deadline is 2am Finnish time. Sadly that means I will have to try not to be around for it, at least on weekdays. I will happily be a bandwagon starter then :Merisu:

(Or to be honest, not happily! Remembering how well my intentional bandwagon starting went in the last game :o And now that I brought up the last game, I can hardly do worse this time. Right? I guess it's a blessing Mac isn't playing.)

I don't have much to say about the Day so far. My reading comprehension is the level of "hmmm suspicious, somebody started making lists very early" ...and turns out it was Galadriel55. *add a laughing smiley because I ran out of the limit already*

I'll be back later with actual thoughts.

[A Little Green]

Looks like this far we've got Lottie gardening, Sally talking about blood and chewing, Boro trying to lauch the "are Day 1s pointless" -debate, and Lommy wanting to start a bandwagon. Did I miss anything? :p Also, I see Huin is already edging towards actual on-topic conversation by questioning and mildly suspecting others, which I like. I'm currently at work so can't devote much time to WW, but I'll be back later with (hopefully) something of actual substance.

[Morsul the Dark]

Seems many of us will be at work til almost DL myself included I don’t to debate the merits of Day 1 other than to say we have a 1/4 chance of getting a wolf if we shoot blindly. I feel those are decent odds.

However the first half of the day has been basically banter which doesn’t give much in the way of information, so I am wary of bandwagons.

Huin so far is the least suspicious but that leaves 10 others (obviously myself excluded)

[Huinesoron]

Because I’m bad at in character banter but wanted to participate.

Which makes sense if you're talking about the joke vote - it's banter and could potentially spook Boro if he's a wolf. But posting a list of names - and lampshading that it adds nothing - seems more like wanting to look like you were participating.

Speaking of lists...


I don't have much to say about the Day so far. My reading comprehension is the level of "hmmm suspicious, somebody started making lists very early" ...and turns out it was Galadriel55. *add a laughing smiley because I ran out of the limit already*

Aulë knows reading-comprehension failures can do that to us all, but it seems like a bit of a (?non-)coincidence that you picked up on something that had actually happened, but then decided it hadn't - and then posted about it anyway. :confused:

hS

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Back and reading, this seems to be slowly starting to get lively. Little to say thus far, but these comments caught my eye:

Before the end you will be objecting to the existence of Day 1s.
Given how many Days 1 get derailed into exactly that kind of debate, I find it a little suspicious that you're courting it.
Boro trying to lauch the "are Day 1s pointless" -debate
:confused: I am not entirely sure how Boro's comment constitutes as "launching a Day 1s are pointless-debate".

Now Hui seems to be poking around inquisitively overall, which is an activity that by itself can serve both good and evil purposes, so if this is just a part of that, whatever; but the formulation (the not-outright-accusing, yet suggestive "I find it a little suspicious", while putting words into Boro's mouth) does not seem right to me. Even stranger is that Greenie basically repeats the same, which just gives me the vibe of "quoting without checking the source", i.e. having seen Hui slightly suspect Boro and just latch on to that. That would be a very good move for a Wolf to pull.

Overall it's just weird because I don't read it as Boro "launching" any "debate" on "Day 1 pointlessness" in the first place.

Clarifications, anyone?

Anyways, I'll be on and off now as I'm at work, but I'll try to keep an eye on here. Also looking forward to see the rest of the people to appear - actually majority of players have showed up by now, which is nice. But still plenty of time until DL, so I hope we'll get some chance for more actual discussion.

[Huinesoron]

the not-outright-accusing, yet suggestive "I find it a little suspicious"

I mean, it was nine posts into the game. :) It's hard to imagine anything someone could say that early that would warrant a full-fledged accusation. I just thought it was suspicious - a little.


Overall it's just weird because I don't read it as Boro "launching" any "debate" on "Day 1 pointlessness" in the first place.

Clarifications, anyone?

Sure. By 'courting' I was thinking 'courting disaster' rather than 'courting the Lady Emeldir'; perhaps 'raising the spectre of' would do as a synonym? Boro wasn't starting such a debate - I agree with you that Greenie overstated that somewhat - but by bringing it up, he made it more likely that it would be a topic of conversation, and thus potentially a day-derailing debate in which the wolves could easily hide.

hS

[A Little Green]

I am not entirely sure how Boro's comment constitutes as "launching a Day 1s are pointless-debate".

Now Hui seems to be poking around inquisitively overall, which is an activity that by itself can serve both good and evil purposes, so if this is just a part of that, whatever; but the formulation (the not-outright-accusing, yet suggestive "I find it a little suspicious", while putting words into Boro's mouth) does not seem right to me. Even stranger is that Greenie basically repeats the same, which just gives me the vibe of "quoting without checking the source", i.e. having seen Hui slightly suspect Boro and just latch on to that. That would be a very good move for a Wolf to pull.

Overall it's just weird because I don't read it as Boro "launching" any "debate" on "Day 1 pointlessness" in the first place.

Clarifications, anyone?Can't speak for Huin, but for myself - in the same sentence I also mentioned Lommy wanting to start bandwagons (which is also quite a stretch) and Lottie gardening (I assume she wasn't, in fact, actually gardening). There was also :p as a telltale sign that I wasn't being entirely serious. That said, I do like giving the anthill a little poke early on Day 1 to see what comes out. I'm quite pleased with my success if this moves us forward from debating the relative merits of hunter-gathering vs farming!

Aside from that, I'm not entirely sure how latching onto someone else's suspicion without fact-checking would constitute a "very good move" for a wolf. :rolleyes:

[Morsul the Dark]

Which makes sense if you're talking about the joke vote - it's banter and could potentially spook Boro if he's a wolf. But posting a list of names - and lampshading that it adds nothing - seems more like wanting to look like you were participating.

Speaking of lists...



Aulë knows reading-comprehension failures can do that to us all, but it seems like a bit of a (?non-)coincidence that you picked up on something that had actually happened, but then decided it hadn't - and then posted about it anyway. :confused:

hS

Not going to lie the initial question seemed in good faith but latching on to the list post seems more unsavory . It was a throwaway post like “oh I was gardening, or sleeping, or whatnot.” I know I’m always an easy target as an innocent so I’m not sure if this is misguided innocent doggedness or wolffish attempt at early suspicion and attempted bandwagoning

[Boromir88]

Looks like this far we've got Lottie gardening, Sally talking about blood and chewing, Boro trying to lauch the "are Day 1s pointless" -debate, and Lommy wanting to start a bandwagon. Did I miss anything?



Sure. By 'courting' I was thinking 'courting disaster' rather than 'courting the Lady Emeldir'; perhaps 'raising the spectre of' would do as a synonym? Boro wasn't starting such a debate - I agree with you that Greenie overstated that somewhat - but by bringing it up, he made it more likely that it would be a topic of conversation, and thus potentially a day-derailing debate in which the wolves could easily hide.


Huh...interesting. Formendacil asked a rhetorical question about what else is there to say on Day 1. I gave a factual answer, being familiar with Formendacil, who will likely do everything in his power today to look for a reason to vote for no one today. That's not a subject of debate, it's a fact. He will make some sort of justification why he won't vote for anyone today.

But let's say I was trying to start a debate about Day 1s? What's wrong with debate? I mean in the end the only way we can hope to rid our camp of these devils is for everyone to participate and debate.

[Huinesoron]

Not going to lie the initial question seemed in good faith but latching on to the list post seems more unsavory.

My question was in good faith; your answer was not reassuring. :p Reassuring answers could include: 'I always post lists', or 'I wanted it there to copy', or 'I expected there'd be more posts before mine'. To describe my failure to accept your answer as "latching on... unsavory... wolfish... attempted bandwagoning" is, ah... I'm going to go with 'a suspicious overreaction'.

But let's say I was trying to start a debate about Day 1s? What's wrong with debate?

So your 'factual answer' comment made me feel a bit better, but then this happened. What's wrong with that debate (and its relatives) is that it's been done a hundred(ish) times before; everyone knows the steps, and both 'let's discuss this' and 'we should be hunting wolves instead of discussing this' are great ways for wolves to contribute without implicating themselves at all.

Which, incidentally, is also what the "what's wrong with Day 1 Debates?" debate/question does. :) Which is why your asking the question keeps me suspicious of your motives.

hS

[Morsul the Dark]

My question was in good faith; your answer was not reassuring. :p Reassuring answers could include: 'I always post lists', or 'I wanted it there to copy', or 'I expected there'd be more posts before mine'. To describe my failure to accept your answer as "latching on... unsavory... wolfish... attempted bandwagoning" is, ah... I'm going to go with 'a suspicious overreaction'.



hS

Noted. Next time I’ll Lie and it’ll be better than honesty.

[Soriman the Whide]

Oh my, terrible news, I've been busy working the land but now that i've returned I say this crime must be paid for with blood! I feel that a blind 1/4 chance of getting a wolf may be a little optimistic though.

[Thinlómien]

Hui is giving me vague bad vibes, which is giving me headache. I mean, I got bad vibes from him in the last game too, but I gave him the benefit of doubt because we hadn't played together before - and then he actually turned out to be a wolf. So the million dollar question is: is he a wolf again or is he just the next Eönwë whom I find super suspicious every time regardless of his role? And if I'm tempted to give him the benefit of doubt and waiting and seeing, am I just making the same mistake as last time? Ughhhh.

Anyway, agreeing with Legate that Hui misrepresents Boro's poking fun at Form's werewolf playing style when he frames it as starting pointless debate. I mean how else do you even get the ball rolling on Day1 if not by bullying your old friends? :p

Greenie seems like her solid self but when does she not.

Morsul's touchiness in #22 is the biggest individual red flag I've seen toDay so far. He implies Hui is suspecting him because his "honest answer" to Hui's question was not satisfactory, but what Hui is actually suspecting him for is being so touchy when questioned. Odd, but not necessarily out of character for an Ordul the Dark either.

...come on, could someone do something actually suspicious? Pretty please? :Merisu: I will give you a... vote as a present if you do. :p

[Boromir88]

So your 'factual answer' comment made me feel a bit better, but then this happened. What's wrong with that debate (and its relatives) is that it's been done a hundred(ish) times before; everyone knows the steps, and both 'let's discuss this' and 'we should be hunting wolves instead of discussing this' are great ways for wolves to contribute without implicating themselves at all.

Which, incidentally, is also what the "what's wrong with Day 1 Debates?" debate/question does. :) Which is why your asking the question keeps me suspicious of your motives.

hS

But we would be discussing something, which I find always more useful than discussing nothing or just conceding to the pack "lay under the radar toDay, because it's Day 1 and they are more likely to just lynch someone they disagree with because they have no other evidence." So really, it's just a disagreement about Day 1 mechanics.

I am of the opinion, the more people say and respond to a topic, the better it is to figure out their motives. You disagree and see it as an opportunity for a wolf to appear actively contributing and thus helpful. That disagreement doesn't make you suspicious in my opinion. I trust you can discern the difference of someone talking just to talk and appear helpful and someone talking to prompt responses and attempt to learn something from the responses. One is a person putting up a flimsy defense only to back away and let other people go at it in a debate. The other is someone who is prepared to get right in the thick of it and defend this silly notion that Day 1s are useless.

So far...

I quite like Morsul's posts. It looks very much like "I'm going about things my way and if you got a problem with it, oh well."

Legate appears sharp and observant, which is a good sign.

Huey is going right in there with questions and accusations, so that also looks like a good sing.

The not so good signs...

Greenie giving a little summation post and going. Looks kind of evil like "here's what's happened so far, but I won't go further into what I think or feel about it." It looks like an attempt to point the day discussion towards certain people (Lottie, sally, myself and Lommy) but not giving her own opinions.

sally, in character banter, but going to have to see more from her.

Edit: Crossed with Soriman and Lommy

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I mean, it was nine posts into the game. :) It's hard to imagine anything someone could say that early that would warrant a full-fledged accusation. I just thought it was suspicious - a little.
Explanation accepted, Captain Needa - sorry, wrong fandom - but you realise that at least this part of your answer is very generic. Fair enough if it is genuine, but would serve you equally well as a Wolf. But alright, as clarification, noted.

Sure. By 'courting' I was thinking 'courting disaster' rather than 'courting the Lady Emeldir'; perhaps 'raising the spectre of' would do as a synonym? Boro wasn't starting such a debate - I agree with you that Greenie overstated that somewhat - but by bringing it up, he made it more likely that it would be a topic of conversation, and thus potentially a day-derailing debate in which the wolves could easily hide.
While I share the sentiment on Day 1 debates, I think you are bringing it back a bit obsessively.

Can't speak for Huin, but for myself - in the same sentence I also mentioned Lommy wanting to start bandwagons (which is also quite a stretch) and Lottie gardening (I assume she wasn't, in fact, actually gardening). There was also :p as a telltale sign that I wasn't being entirely serious. That said, I do like giving the anthill a little poke early on Day 1 to see what comes out. I'm quite pleased with my success if this moves us forward from debating the relative merits of hunter-gathering vs farming!

Aside from that, I'm not entirely sure how latching onto someone else's suspicion without fact-checking would constitute a "very good move" for a wolf. :rolleyes:
Well, it could be as easily jumping on something that exists (a "bandwagon", if you will, or something that could easily start one).

As for smileys as telltale signs - even a Wolf with a smiley could rile up public opinion in a "joking" accusation (I'd say even better, in fact, because they could back out on the premise that it was a joke). That being said, mentioning Lommy as "wanting to start a bandwagon" is also a statement that could be interpreted as trying to "paint someone black". But at least she said that, while with the other you literally seemed like you picked up something that somebody said that Boro said.

Otherwise - I see the debate has started more broadly. Hui I see continues to ruffle some feathers. I think a Wolf would not necessarily overdo things in such a manner, however, I am not sure if I have ever seen a Huiwolf and how it would operate. Another possibility that now occurs to me is that this back-and-forth between Hui and Boro is some theatrical Wolf-on-Wolf maneuver.

Anyway I'll in the future try to form my thoughts also on others in some coherent way.

EDIT: x-ed with Lommy, Soriman and Boro

[Pitchwife]

Here I am, back from work/patrol/hunting&gathering. Now let's see, what do we have so far? *rubs hand, cracks knuckles*


Morsul looks just like Morsul, nothing to worry about.
Formy and Lottie look like nothing particular so far.
sally looks like sally.
Hui is active in pokey mode, which is a good thing at this time of Day, but what are the intentions behind his poking? TBD.
Lommy's #12 struck me as both self-conscious and remarkably content free. "Somebody posted a list... ops, it was G55", when Morsul had actually posted a list and been questioned about it by Hui. Was there really nothing to engage with by that time? Could be a wolf reluctant to stick her head out.
Greenie feels neutral, slightly on the goodish side.
Boro feels good so far, and I was about to say the same of Legate up to this:
Hui I see continues to ruffle some feathers. I think a Wolf would not necessarily overdo things in such a manner, however, I am not sure if I have ever seen a Huiwolf and how it would operate. Another possibility that now occurs to me is that this back-and-forth between Hui and Boro is some theatrical Wolf-on-Wolf maneuver.
Now this is a strange thing to say for a player who sniffed out a Huiwolf, on D2, pushed for his lynching and was killed for it just two games ago (granted, that was last year, but still). Actually makes me think whether the two are in cohorts, in which case the Wolf-on-Wolf-scenario could lay the grounds for tarnishing Boro in case Hui bites the noose.

[A Little Green]

But let's say I was trying to start a debate about Day 1s? What's wrong with debate? I mean in the end the only way we can hope to rid our camp of these devils is for everyone to participate and debate.If you look back, I actually never said there was anything wrong or suspicious about it. On the contrary, I think it's one of the tried and tested ways to get people talking about something, which can then lead to more fruitful conversations.

Greenie giving a little summation post and going. Looks kind of evil like "here's what's happened so far, but I won't go further into what I think or feel about it." It looks like an attempt to point the day discussion towards certain people (Lottie, sally, myself and Lommy) but not giving her own opinions.Fair - though I did mention in the same post that I was at work and couldn't contribute properly until later.

Well, it could be as easily jumping on something that exists (a "bandwagon", if you will, or something that could easily start one).

As for smileys as telltale signs - even a Wolf with a smiley could rile up public opinion in a "joking" accusation (I'd say even better, in fact, because they could back out on the premise that it was a joke). That being said, mentioning Lommy as "wanting to start a bandwagon" is also a statement that could be interpreted as trying to "paint someone black". But at least she said that, while with the other you literally seemed like you picked up something that somebody said that Boro said.Not sure about this argument - especially since, as noted above, there was no "accusation" or even suspicion in that post at all. I also don't greatly love the implication that I'm being careless or not checking my sources. (I'm an academic. I always check my sources. ;))

On another note, I found this really interesting -
While I share the sentiment on Day 1 debates, I think you are bringing it back a bit obsessively.Legate has a point in that Huin is indeed pursuing it to a noticeable extent - even if I wouldn't go so far as to call it "obsessive". But then, Legate himself is arguably just as keen on pursuing Huin (and to some extent myself) about it. I'm not sure what to make of this yet, except Huin gives me decent vibes so far (the inquisitiveness and getting people talking) and I seem to remember Legate tends to be more abrasive when he's innocent, too.

That said, I'm also somewhat fascinated by this catch from Pitch -
Hui I see continues to ruffle some feathers. I think a Wolf would not necessarily overdo things in such a manner, however, I am not sure if I have ever seen a Huiwolf and how it would operate. Another possibility that now occurs to me is that this back-and-forth between Hui and Boro is some theatrical Wolf-on-Wolf maneuver.Now this is a strange thing to say for a player who sniffed out a Huiwolf, on D2, pushed for his lynching and was killed for it just two games ago (granted, that was last year, but still). Actually makes me think whether the two are in cohorts, in which case the Wolf-on-Wolf-scenario could lay the grounds for tarnishing Boro in case Hui bites the noose.This would be a fabulous scenario - though if they were wolves together, Legate forgetting about having sniffed out a previous Huiwolf would be very odd. As a purposeful deception (pretending not to remember his role in the demise of a past Huiwolf), I can't see what purpose it would serve - especially since they couldn't really count on no one else remembering that. If anything, this leads me to the opposite conclusion from Pitch - that Huin and Legate are somewhat unlikely to be wolves together. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around all the possible different configurations of Legate/Huin/Boro and who might be in cahoots with whom (or if they are, as usual, nothing but active innocents trying to get the conversation going), but it's giving me a headache at the moment!

As for everyone else - I don't have a good read on anyone yet (what a shocker, halfway through Day 1). I do second Lommy in that Morsul's defensiveness was eye-catching, but I'm not sure how much to read into it. And - that's about it? Clearly I need to look around more :rolleyes:

[Thinlómien]

Now this is a strange thing to say for a player who sniffed out a Huiwolf, on D2, pushed for his lynching and was killed for it just two games ago (granted, that was last year, but still). Actually makes me think whether the two are in cohorts, in which case the Wolf-on-Wolf-scenario could lay the grounds for tarnishing Boro in case Hui bites the noose.I was confused by the very same quote from Legate for the same reason; however I disagree with (and am baffled by) your conclusion. Are you saying Wolfate is intentionally trying to mislead the village that he has no experience of a previous Wolfesoron and expecting no one to remember a game from last year and bust him?


edit: xed with Greenie's novel

[Thinlómien]

Random note: why am I not surprised that Kath hasn't made an appearance yet? :p

[Thinlómien]

Also so far the Day seems to follow a rather predictable course once again otherwise too, with Boro, Legate and Huinesoron drawing a fair bit of attention and suspicion, Greenie and Pitch somewhat detachedly analysing "from the sides", and Morsul causing controversy. Nothing there really that stands out from the usual formula of a Day1. (Makes me think one should write a parody of a stereotypical ww game. :D)

Morsul being touchy, Huinesoron pinging my vibedar and Pitch making an odd argument about Legate and Hui* are still the only things standing out to me. That's not much to go on.

* I could see Pitch's somewhat contra-intuitive suggestion of a Legate-Huinesoron pack as a wolf tripping over his feet to fabricate a wolf pack accusation. Perhaps especially if one of Legate and Huinesoron was his packmate actually. Or maybe they're Plot Twist all wolves together? :D

Anyway, I would really really like to see something more from Form, Kath, Lottie, Sally and Soriman in the next 3 hours or so before I have to vote.

[Huinesoron]

...latching on to the list post seems more unsavory


While I share the sentiment on Day 1 debates, I think you are bringing it back a bit obsessively.



Legate has a point in that Huin is indeed pursuing it to a noticeable extent - even if I wouldn't go so far as to call it "obsessive".

o.O You're all making me doubt myself - I've had to double-check and confirm that yes, I really do only have four posts in the thread (five now!). If you discount the requested clarification to Legate, I've only 'pursued' and 'brought back' any points once (and in direct reply to the people I originally posted about).

I think what's happened is that it's still been the main topic of conversation, because I was posting (and poking) during a fairly quiet time, so people are flagging that without fully recognising what's happening. But I'm not going to discount a wolf pushing the perception.

... on which point, given that Legate originally said "Even stranger is that Greenie basically repeats the same, which just gives me the vibe of "quoting without checking the source"," I think that exact same phrase could describe Greenie's repetition of Legate's comment on me.

Once is chance; twice is possibly-lupine coincidence, especially when it's used to buddy up to the person who doubted you.

Boro's "we would be discussing something" post makes me feel a bit better about him. Morsul's "Next time I’ll Lie and it’ll be better" sounds fairly sullen-innocent, but still has that 'how people take it is more important than what I say' vibe that whispers 'wolf!'.

I like Lommy's implied point that 'the noisy people all look suspicious' is fairly standard TiG material while the quieter people slip by undiscussed. Not sure what to do about it, but I like it.

Not sure what to make of "forgetting games a plague ago means you're a pack of wolves"... :)

hS

[Pitchwife]

This would be a fabulous scenario - though if they were wolves together, Legate forgetting about having sniffed out a previous Huiwolf would be very odd. As a purposeful deception (pretending not to remember his role in the demise of a past Huiwolf), I can't see what purpose it would serve - especially since they couldn't really count on no one else remembering that.

I was confused by the very same quote from Legate for the same reason; however I disagree with (and am baffled by) your conclusion. Are you saying Wolfate is intentionally trying to mislead the village that he has no experience of a previous Wolfesoron and expecting no one to remember a game from last year and bust him?
I'm not quite sure what I'm saying. Something like, if a Legwolf thinks Huiwolf is behaving typically Huiwolvish he may want to pretend bad memory as an excuse for not picking it up. It's not an argument that they must be wolves together, but I think it would kind of make sense psychologically.

[Kath]

Righty ho. Has to be a quick one from me today I'm afraid, so it's going to be a list post with some vague notions about things so far, and then a vote not long after that.

Boro - has Greenie on his not too sure list (post 25) for summing up without opinions and pointing discussion at people. Those people were Lottie, sally, Boro and Lommy. Only Boro I would have said then actually did garner much discussion so certainly not an effective tactic if it was one.

Formendacil - no opinion formed so far.

Greenie - mentions Hui seems ok and Legate tends to be more abrasive when innocent. Not sure if she's meaning he is abrasive at the moment and therefore innocent, or that if he was innocent she'd expect to see him act more abrasively (post 28).

Huinesoron - I had forgotten how aggressively Hui plays. Every game I've played with them I've thought they were a wolf because of the playing style, but sometimes they were one, so that doesn't really help.

Legate - not liking the way Hui is behaving but more concerned about Greenie following a similar line (post 16). I disagree about Greenie just following what Hui said, as Hui was pointing it out as suspicious, while Greenie seemed to be treating it as generic banter. Continues to focus on Greenie and Hui and wondering about Hui/Boro being wolf-mates for the back and forth. Why not Morsul/Hui for the same reason?

Lommy - follows Legate's thoughts about Hui but not about Greenie regarding the Day 1 debate debacle (sorry, I couldn't resist the alliteration). Finding Morsul suspicious for the touchiness (post 24). I read Morsul's reactions as a bit annoyed rather than defensive but I think the interplay between Morsul and Hui bears watching as it's been relatively intense for the small number of posts so far.

Loslote - will have to see more.

Morsul - interesting to note Hui as the least suspicious (post 14). Didn't mention the reason for this assessment which is odd given Hui was focusing on them a fair bit at this point. Then in post 19 throws in the idea that Hui could actually be wolfy. So from most innocent to potentially wolfy rather quickly there.

Pitch - slightly concerned about Lommy, and about Legate not knowing how a Hui wolf would act given he's played with a Hui wolf before. My own memory is so poor that I wouldn't rely on recall of past games for myself, so this is a tough basis for suspicion.

Sally - bloodshed, blood, chew on (post 7) ... do we have a Cobbler in this game? :rolleyes: Ah I see Boro pointed out the same!

Soriman - more needed for thoughts.

[Kath]

Random note: why am I not surprised that Kath hasn't made an appearance yet? :p
Oy! :D

[Loslote]

Can't speak for Huin, but for myself - in the same sentence I also mentioned Lommy wanting to start bandwagons (which is also quite a stretch) and Lottie gardening (I assume she wasn't, in fact, actually gardening).

I actually was - I spent all afternoon yesterday pulling rocks out of my IRL garden and tending seedlings. :p

I'm getting a slight vibe from Greenie like she's adjusting her positions slightly as she goes to make them more palatable - nothing concrete, but definitely a kernel of a suspicion. I also thought this by Kath was very interesting:

Morsul - interesting to note Hui as the least suspicious (post 14). Didn't mention the reason for this assessment which is odd given Hui was focusing on them a fair bit at this point. Then in post 19 throws in the idea that Hui could actually be wolfy. So from most innocent to potentially wolfy rather quickly there.

It is a little strange how much Morsul was focusing on Huin early, to the almost complete exclusion of anyone else. In fact, I don't think Morsul has interacted with or mentioned anyone other than Huin, with his throwaway comment about Boro posting first being the exception that proves the rule. I don't know what to make of it. It's not a great strategy if they're packmates, and he switches between suspicion and trust so quickly that it doesn't suggest any special knowledge - if I had to guess, I would say Morsul is either a wolf and Huin isn't, or Morsul is an ordo with a bit of tunnel vision. Definitely the most suspicious thing to happen thus far, although I acknowledge that that's a low bar to clear at this point in the game.

[Kath]

Not enough info:
Form
Lottie
Soriman
sally - with a caveat that hiding a wolfy nature under a Cobbler style first post is absolutely a sally way to play the game

Everyone else ... the particular questions I had in my last post point me towards Hui, Morsul and potentially Legate as lines of suspicion.

Hui's latest post (#32) is interesting. Half saying to discount the interplay with Morsul because a bigger deal is being made than it deserved, but then actually continuing the same interplay within said post. I do think though it's unlikely Hui and Morsul are both wolves here - I feel that Hui's playing style would mean they'd have no qualms about throwing another wolf under the bus, and that the suspicion of Morsul is almost too half-hearted by this post for it to be a wolf-Hui doing that. I find Morsul's switch from Hui being least suspicious to potentially wolfy (post 19) more worrisome, particularly because the original statement of being least suspicious didn't seem to have any basis behind it.

So, an early vote from me toDay for the reasons stated above for:

++MORSUL

[Pitchwife]

Actually, mind you, I'm not convinced that either of Legate and Hui has to be a wolf. So far I'm more suspicious of Lommy because of #24:
Hui is giving me vague bad vibes, which is giving me headache. I mean, I got bad vibes from him in the last game too, but I gave him the benefit of doubt because we hadn't played together before - and then he actually turned out to be a wolf. So the million dollar question is: is he a wolf again or is he just the next Eönwë whom I find super suspicious every time regardless of his role? And if I'm tempted to give him the benefit of doubt and waiting and seeing, am I just making the same mistake as last time? Ughhhh.

...< agrees with Legate about Hui/Boro, Greenie herself but when does she not > ...

Morsul's touchiness in #22 is the biggest individual red flag I've seen toDay so far. He implies Hui is suspecting him because his "honest answer" to Hui's question was not satisfactory, but what Hui is actually suspecting him for is being so touchy when questioned. Odd, but not necessarily out of character for an Ordul the Dark either.
So she suspects Hui because of bad vibes but not really, and Morsul for being touchy, a bit more really but then again... Seeing how Hui and Morsul suspecting each other had been most of the action so far, this feels to me much like a wolf thinking, "Hmm, either of these could become a promising bandwagon but let's not commit just yet."

[Boromir88]

What's this? Kath here...remembers to post and even votes on Day 1! :eek:


It is a little strange how much Morsul was focusing on Huin early, to the almost complete exclusion of anyone else. In fact, I don't think Morsul has interacted with or mentioned anyone other than Huin, with his throwaway comment about Boro posting first being the exception that proves the rule. I don't know what to make of it. It's not a great strategy if they're packmates, and he switches between suspicion and trust so quickly that it doesn't suggest any special knowledge - if I had to guess, I would say Morsul is either a wolf and Huin isn't, or Morsul is an ordo with a bit of tunnel vision. Definitely the most suspicious thing to happen thus far, although I acknowledge that that's a low bar to clear at this point in the game.

I don't know why that would be considered strange? I mean isn't it a natural tendency to focus on the person accusing and asking you direct questions?

[Soriman the Whide]

As I was away working in distant lands and extremely busy, it cannot have been me that commited the foul deed.
I am concerned that wolves are guiding our conversations here Huinesoron
has been very good at this so far... Pitch has made some strange arguments against Huin but I don't believe anyone should read into this.

[Morsul the Dark]

Not enough info:
Form
Lottie
Soriman
sally - with a caveat that hiding a wolfy nature under a Cobbler style first post is absolutely a sally way to play the game

Everyone else ... the particular questions I had in my last post point me towards Hui, Morsul and potentially Legate as lines of suspicion.

Hui's latest post (#32) is interesting. Half saying to discount the interplay with Morsul because a bigger deal is being made than it deserved, but then actually continuing the same interplay within said post. I do think though it's unlikely Hui and Morsul are both wolves here - I feel that Hui's playing style would mean they'd have no qualms about throwing another wolf under the bus, and that the suspicion of Morsul is almost too half-hearted by this post for it to be a wolf-Hui doing that. I find Morsul's switch from Hui being least suspicious to potentially wolfy (post 19) more worrisome, particularly because the original statement of being least suspicious didn't seem to have any basis behind it.

So, an early vote from me toDay for the reasons stated above for:

++MORSUL]


My switch is outlined in the post. I considered the first question genuine(not suspicious) considered continued attack of that question suspicious. It’s not deeper.

I’ve been at work so can only really scan and answer posts directed at me specifically. But that’s fine. I’ll look into everyone else before DL.

[Loslote]

I don't know why that would be considered strange? I mean isn't it a natural tendency to focus on the person accusing and asking you direct questions?

Sure, but to the exclusion of all else? And with somewhat dramatic shifts in opinion (that were strongly stated for being based on not much to begin with? Like I said, it could be an ordoMorsul with tunnel vision, or it could be a wolfMorsul trying to invent suspicions. The one scenario I don’t think is likely is both of them being wolves - and the interactions from Morsul to Huin look more targeted than the other way around, so I’m more able to draw conclusions about Morsul then I am about Huin, who has been very active on a number of fronts so far.

[Morsul the Dark]

Not sure what to post about anyone else since most are just neutral posts on everyone and then Huin and Morsul are weird right? But Morsul is weirder. I called it earlier I’m an easy bandwagon and I don’t even understand how I was supposed to act to avoid being thrown under the bus. There seems to be a lot of emphasis on me becoming suddenly suspicious when I actually say why. Which also contained why I was least suspicious. (First time felt genuine((least suspicious)) kept poking((more suspicious)))

No this doesn’t feel right to me. The argument Lommie is the first one I see that makes the argument that I’m suspicious because I’m touchy(a phrase oft repeated here). Which feels like getting poked over and over and reacting and everyone goes “See why would they react?”

Kath gets a vote in early which I’m sure is based on everyone having wildly different time zones but is also an easy defense if I am killed and proven innocent.

Boro seems to see through this nonsense but annoyingly that helps if he is a wolf since he can then say “told you so”

I dunno. If Huin is a wolf then well played that was an excellent orchestration of events.

Don’t know who I’m voting. Probably Huin but I’m not set in stone on that.

[Formendacil]

Huh...interesting. Formendacil asked a rhetorical question about what else is there to say on Day 1. I gave a factual answer, being familiar with Formendacil, who will likely do everything in his power today to look for a reason to vote for no one today. That's not a subject of debate, it's a fact. He will make some sort of justification why he won't vote for anyone today.

I was going to argue all this, but... I mean, that's kind of true. I would say to look up my behavious in the Days 1 of Games Previous, but that's bad form.

"Won't" vote for anyone is a bit of a strong way of stating of my position, but it's not the most inaccurate thing ever. I believe everyone should have to leave a record--a voting record--from Day 1; I just don't think that it means anything intelligible until there's some hindsight to give it context.

But why are we relitigating my Day 1-antipathy?! Nog isn't even here!

Honestly, I'm mostly posting this because I'll look like a deliberate lurker going to reply to my beloved Books forum threads if I say nothing here. But there really is nothing to say.

[Pitchwife]

Thing is, I've seen this kind of mutual suspicion between Hui and Morsul before, and watched it happily as a wolf munching popcorn. Hui is always pushy-pokey, and Morsul is always a bit of a wild card, as well as an easy target, like he said himself. It's an explosive mixture. Right now I'm leaning towards seeing them both as innocent.


Also, I'm puzzled by this from Kath:
I do think though it's unlikely Hui and Morsul are both wolves here - I feel that Hui's playing style would mean they'd have no qualms about throwing another wolf under the bus, and that the suspicion of Morsul is almost too half-hearted by this post for it to be a wolf-Hui doing that.
So you're saying that
- it's unlikely they're both wolves
- Hui can't be a wolf because he isn't trying hard enough to bus Morsul

- therefore Morsul must be a wolf?
I'm not sure I follow this reasoning. It seems to presuppose that one of them has to be a wolf, which I find questionable. And wouldn't the very half-heartedness of Hui's suspicion rather suggest wolf-on-wolf than not? Or are you really saying that a Huiwolf would try harder to bus a packmate on D1? There's being fine with bussing, and there's pushing it without need - big difference.

[Huinesoron]

Boro has posed another question of the 'you say this is bad/strange, but what if actually it's not?' structure, so I'm happy to put his original version re: debates down to playstyle. Not high on my suspects list at this point.

I'm sensing a bit of a Morsul focus forming... Lommy highlighting it as one of the few suspicious things, Kath echoing this and adding a vote, Lottie spending most of her last two posts on it. Not a wagon per se, but a wolf in there could be pushing for one.

But then again, each time Morsul posts I'm split between thinking 'wounded innocent' and 'cornered wolf'. Mostly they sound very genuinely fed up at being unfairly suspected, but then we get:

I don’t even understand how I was supposed to act to avoid being thrown under the bus.

Like... if you're innocent, I don't think you go around implying you're putting on an act (or that you think you should have, which is another possible reading). The "next time I'll lie" post from earlier shows the same not-very-innocent-seeming thought process.

Of the other people now around, I think Pitch looks innocent and sensible, but I'm pretty sure I always do and occasionally get bitten for it. Kath's comments also look like genuine innocent musings - her note on Greenie's comments on Legate, for instance.

Below that, nothing concrete: Lottie feels fine, Lommy is giving me undefined uneasiness, and it's nice to see Soriman but there's not much to say about them.

I also haven't gotten over my suspicion of Greenie's tagging onto suspicions (I know someone else commented on this but can't find who), but without any more appearances I can't really add to that. :)

hS

[Thinlómien]

I like Lommy's implied point that 'the noisy people all look suspicious' is fairly standard TiG material while the quieter people slip by undiscussed. Not sure what to do about it, but I like it.Well, that is a statement worthy of a captain obvious of movie!Legolas's calibre. :D

I'm not quite sure what I'm saying. Something like, if a Legwolf thinks Huiwolf is behaving typically Huiwolvish he may want to pretend bad memory as an excuse for not picking it up. It's not an argument that they must be wolves together, but I think it would kind of make sense psychologically. "I'm not quite sure what I'm saying" screamed honest innocent to me, but the convoulted argumentation that follows does not.

It is a little strange how much Morsul was focusing on Huin early, to the almost complete exclusion of anyone else. In fact, I don't think Morsul has interacted with or mentioned anyone other than Huin, with his throwaway comment about Boro posting first being the exception that proves the rule. I don't know what to make of it. It's not a great strategy if they're packmates, and he switches between suspicion and trust so quickly that it doesn't suggest any special knowledge - if I had to guess, I would say Morsul is either a wolf and Huin isn't, or Morsul is an ordo with a bit of tunnel vision. Definitely the most suspicious thing to happen thus far, although I acknowledge that that's a low bar to clear at this point in the game. Tunnel vision is also a fairly convenient strategy for a wolf - if you pick up an innocent as your target, you can keep at it until they die and can meanwhile ignore mentioning your packmates and leaving traces, then wehn the innocent dies you just have to publicly sprinkle ash on yourself for being wrong. That being said, I don't think Morsul fixating on Hui during Day1 when there was little to go on counts as tunnel vision yet, innocent or otherwise.

I do think though it's unlikely Hui and Morsul are both wolves here - I feel that Hui's playing style would mean they'd have no qualms about throwing another wolf under the bus, and that the suspicion of Morsul is almost too half-hearted by this post for it to be a wolf-Hui doing that.I don't see a Hui-Morsul duo as particularly likely either, but I disagree with the latter half of what you're saying: how could Hui's suspicion of Morsul not be half-hearted? It's Day1. There's really not very much to go on. Even for a wolf grasping at straws and trying to bus/incriminate their fellow.

So she suspects Hui because of bad vibes but not really, and Morsul for being touchy, a bit more really but then again... Seeing how Hui and Morsul suspecting each other had been most of the action so far, this feels to me much like a wolf thinking, "Hmm, either of these could become a promising bandwagon but let's not commit just yet." I do suspect Hui for the bad vibes I'm getting. I'm just second-guessing my suspicion because it is, as I said, only based on "vibes". That's not very much, even for Day1.

As for Morsul, I think his defensiveness is fishy, but especially after seeing Kath's post, I am a little worried about Morsul's claim of always being an easy target becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

But then again, they are - alongside with you, Pitch - the people who caught my attention, so what can you do? *throws hands in the air*

Of the later-comers, Kath gives me an innocent vibe but I'm wary of her argumentation and her Morsul vote, and Lottie's commentary on Morsul's tunnel vision seems to be turning into tunnel vision from her part. Which also seems somehow... convenient.

Ah, Form. His anti-Day1 attitude always makes me want to vote for him on Day1. I refuse to give him a pass for reffusing to participate on Day1 just because he doesn't like Day1s. I am aware he does this as both innocent and wolf but it pushes my buttons every time! Like, if you're a wolf, that's not fair play! And if you're innocent stop being silly, we need your contribution! *taking deep breaths in order not to get worked up by this*

[Formendacil]

Ah, Form. His anti-Day1 attitude always makes me want to vote for him on Day1. I refuse to give him a pass for reffusing to participate on Day1 just because he doesn't like Day1s. I am aware he does this as both innocent and wolf but it pushes my buttons every time! Like, if you're a wolf, that's not fair play! And if you're innocent stop being silly, we need your contribution! *taking deep breaths in order not to get worked up by this*

At the risk of posting again--this isn't failure to participate. I inevitably (LIKE THIS VERY POST) end up participating, but since the participation is all about how the participation doesn't register until after the day has produced results, I get unfairly dinged for saying things by people complaining that I DON'T say things, when other people actually lurk through the entire Day 1 (maybe not even voting). And, since I think it's bad to deliberately lurk--I'm caught between a rock and a hard place here, I know--I end up responding to the Day 1-talk provocation.

Well, here were are again, then. Since it's human nature to always be fighting the last war (or last week's headlines), I suppose I am deeply suspicious of the lurkers and only mildly concerned about anyone who's posting. Perhaps I should take that mentality and say that I'll vote for whomever the most silent Day 1 person is.

[Thinlómien]

Not particularly suspicious of so far
Boro, Greenie, Legate - all seem like their usual selves and have participated without doing anything shady that would have caught my attention (yet), would not vote for them based on what I've seen so far

Flip flop
Kath - my gut is saying innocent, my reason is telling me to keep an eye on her
Morsul - he is rather defensive, but his last post looks better to me. I'm hesitant to suspect him because it seems so knee-jerk

Vaguely suspicious so far
Form - for hiding behind Day1s being futile
Hui - mostly a gut-feeling, something about him seems off
Lottie - for the Morsul tunnel vision after criticising Morsul's tunnel vision
Pitch - his continued "Wolfate is pretending not to remember Wolfesoron's last wolf game" argument just seems odd and convoluted to me, otherwise hard to say

Needs to post more (substance)
Form (yes he's in two places, he deserves it for triggering me about Day1s :p)
Sally
Soriman


edit: xed with Form, and feeling much better about him. Maybe because he sounds a little apologetic :p

[Morsul the Dark]

, I am a little worried about Morsul's claim of always being an easy target becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.
*

Let me get some Ghost Practice just a Tolkien quotes right?

“ Surely you don't disbelieve the prophecies because you helped bring them about?”:smokin:

[A Little Green]

I could see Pitch's somewhat contra-intuitive suggestion of a Legate-Huinesoron pack as a wolf tripping over his feet to fabricate a wolf pack accusation. Perhaps especially if one of Legate and Huinesoron was his packmate actually. Or maybe they're Plot Twist all wolves together?I find the exchange between Lommy and Pitch interesting. Lommy makes a plausible argument against Pitch here (discounting the Plot Twist which, while hilarious if actually true, seems somewhat unlikely :D). Meanwhile, Pitch explains himself as follows -

I'm not quite sure what I'm saying. Something like, if a Legwolf thinks Huiwolf is behaving typically Huiwolvish he may want to pretend bad memory as an excuse for not picking it up. It's not an argument that they must be wolves together, but I think it would kind of make sense psychologically.I do like the honesty here - even if it doesn't necessarily say anything about his alignment. What's more interesting is that in his next post, he switches his focus on to Lommy -

Actually, mind you, I'm not convinced that either of Legate and Hui has to be a wolf. So far I'm more suspicious of Lommy because of #24:

[...]

So she suspects Hui because of bad vibes but not really, and Morsul for being touchy, a bit more really but then again... Seeing how Hui and Morsul suspecting each other had been most of the action so far, this feels to me much like a wolf thinking, "Hmm, either of these could become a promising bandwagon but let's not commit just yet."Again, the point itself is reasonable enough (at least by Day 1 standards) but the timing is curious. He doesn't make an explicit link between Lommy suspecting him and himself then suspecting Lommy, and perhaps it's genuinely a coincidence; but all the same, it does look a lot like turning to suspect the person who suspects you without explicitly appearing to do so. This makes me feel more uneasy about Pitch, but says nothing of whether Lommy would then be an innocent bystander or a co-conspirator.

Greenie - mentions Hui seems ok and Legate tends to be more abrasive when innocent. Not sure if she's meaning he is abrasive at the moment and therefore innocent, or that if he was innocent she'd expect to see him act more abrasively (post 28).This was badly phrased on my part. I meant the former - I think Legate has been his more abrasive self so far, which makes me lean rather innocent than not on him so far. In general, I really like what I've seen of Kath - she brings up several shrewd points about what's been going on. Especially the following two -
Legate - not liking the way Hui is behaving but more concerned about Greenie following a similar line (post 16). I disagree about Greenie just following what Hui said, as Hui was pointing it out as suspicious, while Greenie seemed to be treating it as generic banter. Continues to focus on Greenie and Hui and wondering about Hui/Boro being wolf-mates for the back and forth. Why not Morsul/Hui for the same reason?This is a valid point. As mentioned before, I'm getting a fairly innocent vibe of Legate so far, and the discrepancy Kath mentions here could easily be an innocent Legate who just didn't think there was a connection. But at the same time, if there is an actual argument as to why Hui/Boro looks like wolf-on-wolf but Hui/Morsul doesn't, I'd be curious to hear it.

As for the second important point Kath raises -
I find Morsul's switch from Hui being least suspicious to potentially wolfy (post 19) more worrisome, particularly because the original statement of being least suspicious didn't seem to have any basis behind it.This is an interesting catch, especially the latter part. Again, there's an element of turning to suspect the person who suspects (or in this case, questions) you, but what makes this case curious is that Morsul does single Huin out, very early on, as the least suspicious out of everyone. I haven't quite worked out the possible implications of that, and I feel like I'm getting a bit too sleepy to give this bit the attention it deserves. At the same time - and I apologise for the flip-flop - if I were to go by vibes alone, the vibe I get from Morsul just now is more frustrated innocent than wolf.

[Formendacil]

edit: xed with Form, and feeling much better about him. Maybe because he sounds a little apologetic :p

Well, that's not what I'd have expected at all!

Normally, my crotchety and irritated demeanour as I push the Sisyphusian rock of Day 1-antipthay is to be suspected of being a Wolf for it.

Since Lommy always suspects me, this must mean she's not herself--i.e. a Wolf. :p

[Huinesoron]

Let me get some Ghost Practice just a Tolkien quotes right?

“ Surely you don't disbelieve the prophecies because you helped bring them about?”:smokin:

Morsul, if you're innocent please don't be so fatalistic. I think at least half of the people discussing you think you're innocent, and most of the rest are flip-flopping from moment to moment. You haven't actually been done at this point. Who do you suspect, and why?

Lommy doesn't seem to be making me uneasy in their last couple of posts, so that's good.

Form... I don't know. Are you actually taking a stance that it's impossible to read anything off anyone on Day One, despite all the suspicion flying around? Because that seems pretty tenuous for an innocent.

Greenie is back, and what earlier looked like buddying-up now comes over as fairly considering each person's points.

hS

[Pitchwife]

Pitch - his continued "Wolfate is pretending not to remember Wolfesoron's last wolf game" argument just seems odd and convoluted to me, otherwise hard to say

I give you "odd and convoluted", but you realise it's only "continued" because you and Greenie asked me for clarification and I replied, right? (I'd still like to hear if Legate has anything to say about the matter.)

Continuing speculation about the Hui/Morsul altercation (doesn't that sound like an episode title from The Big Band Theory?), I like Boro's reply to Lottie in #39. Actually make that 'I really like Boro so far, period'. And I'd laugh my head off if we had a pack of any three of Hui, Lommy, Lottie and Kath, although I suspect it's not quite as easy - there's probably a wolf steering meticulously clear of the whole affair. Also I'm ironically flip-flopping about Lommy, her last couple of posts sound more innocentish than before. So, could it be Lottie, Kath and X?

[Morsul the Dark]

Morsul, if you're innocent please don't be so fatalistic. I think at least half of the people discussing you think you're innocent, and most of the rest are flip-flopping from moment to moment. You haven't actually been done at this point. Who do you suspect, and why?


Ah it was just some dark gallows humor.

As for most suspicious to be perfectly unhelpful everyone is giving off fumbling in the dark vibes and I don’t see any discernible patterns that I usually jump on even if a bit backwards and in a “makes sense in my head and no one else’s” arguably Boro’s rather strong defense of me is counter intuitively a small flag because unless he’s a wolf he wouldn’t be sure I’m an innocent.

Then there’s some chatter about strategies and such that certainly have merit but are based on certain knowledge of the players.

You and Boro top my list. kath feels like it was an easy vote and easy to wiggle out of but it really could be day 1.

This is why people don’t vote day 1.:rolleyes:

[A Little Green]

++ Pitchwife

I'm not confident about this one, but it's 2 hours past bedtime for me and I can't stick around any longer. Basically, Pitch suddenly turning to suspect Lommy right after she started suspecting him, while carefully not mentioning any connection between the two, is arguably the dodgiest thing I've seen toDay. Lommy's interpretation of his Hui/Legate speculation as potential stumbling wolf-logic doesn't make him look better, either. It's flimsy, but less so than anything else I've got. :rolleyes:

I'm not comfortable voting for Morsul because he does act more like a frustrated ordo at the moment, and if indeed innocent, would make an entirely too convenient Day 1 bandwagon. I may, however, want to revisit the subject with a fresher brain toMorrow if I'm still here.

One last thing - I had a quick scroll through the thread, and noticed this:
Pitch has made some strange arguments against Huin but I don't believe anyone should read into this. Nothing suspicious about this in itself, but if Pitch does turn out to be a wolf, I'd take another look at Soriman.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Now this is a strange thing to say for a player who sniffed out a Huiwolf, on D2, pushed for his lynching and was killed for it just two games ago (granted, that was last year, but still).
I'm actually embarassed, and feel like I should apologise to Hui for forgetting about this interaction we had. (I am worried however how much this is a sign that I am getting, ah, so old and forgetful, children...)

Anyway, to the matters at hand. I spent a lot of time gathering provisions, cooking and re-reading; but here is a list of my impressions of people so far (which is probably gonna crosspost with a dozen, so I'll have to post more later, but anyways; for now):

Boro - has been vocal, as expected, and overall in the centre of attention. Even though I have to say that he was more in the centre of attention because others started speaking about him, rather than him going out and questioning others, as is more oft his habit. What to make of that shift I am not certain.

Form - has not said nearly enough to merit any reasonable judgment, so I would like to see more from him before I could state anything.

Greenie - actually of all people, the way she posted seems to me the most suspicious. I am still not convinced that she did not have an evil intent in signal-boosting Hui's potential suspicion-wagon. There is also something slippery in general about the way she responds, as opposed to sharper and more focused that I'd expect.

Hui - was certainly very inquisitive, which like I said by itself means nothing, and I was not entirely convinced by his response to my question about him. While questioning people is a perfectly legitimate thing, throwing casual "XY makes me a little suspicious" or sort of implicating the people along with it is a Wolfy tactic. Whatever the case, he is certainly a sharp player, which is a reason why I might prefer to have more time to observe him.

Kath - appeared in her typical style. The one thing that just pinged my radar once was her vote for Morsul, because choosing him of all is something a Wolf with little time to spare could easily focus on - if he is innocent, an easy target (see below). But then again, she had to vote somebody, and her reasoning about the 180-turn is valid.

Lommy - her first posts were somewhat noncommital, but later she started posting some good observations. She is also one of the people who mentioned Morsul multiple times, which, if Morsul is innocent, may be jumping on an easy target - see above and below. Otherwise however seems like normal Lommy.

Lottie - seems very... ponderful (that's a word, I just made it). On first sight did not rub me wrong in any way, is a bit under my radar, but that can be hopefully rectified in the future.

Morsul - he was also in the centre of things, he had some back-and-forths with others. Made some points without giving explanation, such as randomly saying that Hui is "the least suspicious", but him then switching so suddenly makes me think a Wolf would not act so brazenly. Plus, Morsul often tends to rub people the wrong way. That in fact makes me alert about those who jump at him easily, because if innocent, he could be easy prey. That is not to say the 180 is not noteworthy, but exactly that raises the question if it isn't too blunt for a Wolf.

Pitch - whereas I am grateful for him reminding me of stuff I forgot (and embarrassed for him doing so), I find his acrobatics around it just puzzling (as in, firstly, as an argument it's horribly meta and I am not even sure what it should mean, and secondly and more importantly, I am not even sure Pitch knows himself; or at least I am not able to decipher his thought processes). Logical conclusion would be: Cobbler. I am probably going to let this sit and see about him in the future.

Sally - need more posts from her. One appearance with talk about chewing and blood, while sinister, does not make good data for deep analysis.

Soriman - I absolutely hope to see more from him. I am not sure what he means by "Pitch making strange arguments against Huin" - can you perhaps elaborate on this a bit, Soriman? (as in, what in particular do you have in mind, why would you consider it "strange" and how does this fit together, or doesn't, with your own feelings about Hui? I am not entirely sure what were you trying to say there)

EDIT: x-ed with like a billion

[Formendacil]

Form... I don't know. Are you actually taking a stance that it's impossible to read anything off anyone on Day One, despite all the suspicion flying around? Because that seems pretty tenuous for an innocent.

With the exception of the Wolves, Day 1 is Wild Mass Guessing and distinguishing the two--especially when you're playing with people you've played WW with before (possibly many, many times before) is More Wild Mass Guessing until you have Facts: which, unfortunately, is a body count.

That doesn't mean that someone can't luck into a correct answer, but WW is an ever-escalating game of "normally I zig, so I need to zag" and "XXXX seems suspicious, but they always seem suspicious, but it's suspicious that I usually end up not thinking they're suspicious, and it's suspicious that they're aren't suspicious, and even more suspicious that they're a little bit suspicious rather than exact enough suspicious."

Throw in a heavy dose of "I've never played with YYY before, so I have no idea" and you have Day 1.

Although there was a time once--maybe around when the Moon first rose in the West--when I didn't feel thusly about Days 1, that was a long, long time ago.

[Thinlómien]

Ugh, I should go to sleep too. I have read all the recent posts but I feel like I'm not really computing them.

I'm still wondering what is more stupid, voting Huinesoron just based on gut-feeling, or ignoring my gut-feeling and giving him a free pass which is exactly what I did last time when he was a wolf.

I could also vote Pitch, but that feels a bit like making a mountain out of molehill when it comes to his weird Hui/Legate argument. Then again I guess Day1 is a molehill Day.

I'd also like to see Lottie say something about something else than Morsul because that would help in determining whether my suspicion of her is founded or not. (Is "founded" a word? Or just "unfounded"?? Help, I can't English at this hour.)

[Morsul the Dark]

But then again, each time [b]Morsul posts I'm split between thinking 'wounded innocent' and 'cornered wolf'. Mostly they sound very genuinely fed up at being unfairly suspected, but then we get:
[Morsul asking how to act]

Like... if you're innocent, I don't think you go around implying you're putting on an act (or that you think you should have, which is another possible reading). The "next time I'll lie" post from earlier shows the same not-very-innocent-seeming thought process.
hS

++Huin

This just feels like pushing a bandwagon while pretending to not wanting it.

My quote conveniently out of context was basically saying I said an answer and you saying I didn’t use the right words. All of which weren’t the actual answer. Hence the lying quote. My posts were what I thought and said because they were true. Could I have worded them differently? Perhaps but I certainly wouldn’t lie.

[Formendacil]

This will be a terrible post in hindsight if Hui[b] turns out to be a Wolf, but purely on the basis of Day 1, I am against lynching him toDay--that is EXACTLY what we did last game and we are going down that same garden path and it was a horrifically stupid loss for the Village, and for exactly the same reasons.

...which is me breaking protocol and referencing past games, I guess, but even insofar as [b]Hui is the anti-me (i.e. trying way to hard to analyze Day 1 during Day 1), I think lynching him for that on Day 1 would be as bad as lynching me.

(I realise I've offered no alternative, but "the most lurky" seems as fair a way to do it as any. Actually... can I propose a rule for future games? No? Okay, but let me put a pin in this for post-games. I have a rule-change proposal. :p )

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, since before I did not have data on Form, apparently now he can get an entire post of his own...

At the risk of posting again--this isn't failure to participate. I inevitably (LIKE THIS VERY POST) end up participating, but since the participation is all about how the participation doesn't register until after the day has produced results, I get unfairly dinged for saying things by people complaining that I DON'T say things, when other people actually lurk through the entire Day 1 (maybe not even voting). And, since I think it's bad to deliberately lurk--I'm caught between a rock and a hard place here, I know--I end up responding to the Day 1-talk provocation.
Well the avoidance sounds just like a) a bad strategy, b) irresponsible towards the village. And c), anyway - even bantery participation eventually reveals something. Because inevitably you end up talking about something actually relevant for the game, even if only briefly. So. But now since you spoke, you participated, so, problem solved.

Otherwise I think the lurking is a valid point (and some have mentioned it here before, too), but exactly - all that is cured only by everyone posting more. That being said,

Well, here were are again, then. Since it's human nature to always be fighting the last war (or last week's headlines), I suppose I am deeply suspicious of the lurkers and only mildly concerned about anyone who's posting. Perhaps I should take that mentality and say that I'll vote for whomever the most silent Day 1 person is.

Stating whom you vote and why (and doing it) is essentially the minimum one would ask. Not that I wouldn't think there may be better reasoning based on content rather than the absence of, but I actually think, of all things, voting for purposefully slipping under the radar is a sound basis for voting. Of course also a way to make a throwaway vote, but any vote can be throwaway - it only depends on the circumstances.

Anyway, generally this gives me a fairly good vibe about Form all in all.

EDIT: x-ed with Lommy, Morsul and Form

[Loslote]

++ Pitchwife

I'm not confident about this one, but it's 2 hours past bedtime for me and I can't stick around any longer. Basically, Pitch suddenly turning to suspect Lommy right after she started suspecting him, while carefully not mentioning any connection between the two, is arguably the dodgiest thing I've seen toDay. Lommy's interpretation of his Hui/Legate speculation as potential stumbling wolf-logic doesn't make him look better, either. It's flimsy, but less so than anything else I've got. :rolleyes:

This makes me feel much better about Greenie - I'd picked up a hem-haw-y vibe from her earlier in the Day, but I appreciate her suspicion of Pitch (I don't agree with it, but I appreciate where she's coming from) and the fact that she stuck to it and voted that way before seeing anyone react to the suspicion negates the vibe I was getting earlier.

I actually agree with Pitch that something about Lommy's suspicion of Huin feels a little forced to me. I've focused more on Morsul than on Huin, but overall, Huin hasn't struck me as being particularly suspicious, and he's coming across like I remember him from previous games. I would not want to vote him toDay. So, I don't want to vote for Huin, Greenie, or Pitch, all three of whom are people who've drawn votes and attention so far toDay. I might be willing to vote Morsul, but frankly, I think it's just as likely he's innocent as a wolf, so I don't love that option, either. Hopefully something changes before DL...

[Thinlómien]

++Huinesoron

I don't think anything would make me kick myself more than if I caught a wolfy vibe from him TWICE and let him off the hook because "maybe it's just his playing style" TWICE and he was a wolf BOTH TIMES.


edit: xed with everyone

[Huinesoron]

I may, however, want to revisit the subject with a fresher brain toMorrow if I'm still here.


I realise Greenie is gone, but am I missing some reason they'd think they might not be here? I was feeling pretty good about them, and I only remember one other person commenting on them at all. I know WW can shift rapidly, but it sounds like a bit of a guilty conscience.

Then there's their vote, which is because "Pitch suddenly turning to suspect Lommy right after she started suspecting him" and not mentioning it is dodgy. Except there's been a whole conversation about how natural that exact reaction is.

Couple that with:


Greenie - actually of all people, the way she posted seems to me the most suspicious. I am still not convinced that she did not have an evil intent in signal-boosting Hui's potential suspicion-wagon. There is also something slippery in general about the way she responds, as opposed to sharper and more focused that I'd expect.


And I'm starting to think I was right on my first (er... last-but-one, at any rate) feeling.

Ah it was just some dark gallows humor.

Fine, but:

Boro’s rather strong defense of me is counter intuitively a small flag because unless he’s a wolf he wouldn’t be sure I’m an innocent.

All I can find for 'rather strong defence' is this:


I don't know why that would be considered strange? I mean isn't it a natural tendency to focus on the person accusing and asking you direct questions?

Which is nothing of the sort, and pushes me yet again over to the "wolf" interpretation of you.


That doesn't mean that someone can't luck into a correct answer, but WW is an ever-escalating game of "normally I zig, so I need to zag" and "XXXX seems suspicious, but they always seem suspicious, but it's suspicious that I usually end up not thinking they're suspicious, and it's suspicious that they're aren't suspicious, and even more suspicious that they're a little bit suspicious rather than exact enough suspicious."


I mean... to an extent, but I don't think it's as hopeless as you're making out. But at least you're consistent in your viewpoint - I think (or Wild Guess) that's a good thing.

I see Morsul has now voted me - well, they said they were going to! I think the claim that my response way back was "you saying I didn’t use the right words" is deeply flawed - it wasn't about precise wording, it was about meaning! My 'example answers' were all very different in meaning from the one Morsul actually gave.

So it's between Morsul and Greenie for me at this point.

(Crossed to Lommy's vote.)

hS

[Pitchwife]

Basically, Pitch suddenly turning to suspect Lommy right after she started suspecting him, while carefully not mentioning any connection between the two, is arguably the dodgiest thing I've seen toDay. Lommy's interpretation of his Hui/Legate speculation as potential stumbling wolf-logic doesn't make him look better, either. It's flimsy, but less so than anything else I've got.
I saw that one coming, and I get how it would seem like a sudden turn, but it wasn't, see my #27. Also, did you notice my subsequent backpedalling? And as for 'carefully not mentioning', would it have made you feel easier about me if I'd said, 'Oh, and btw she sucks for suspecting me?':rolleyes:


One last thing - I had a quick scroll through the thread, and noticed this:
Originally Posted by Soriman
Pitch has made some strange arguments against Huin but I don't believe anyone should read into this.
Nothing suspicious about this in itself, but if Pitch does turn out to be a wolf, I'd take another look at Soriman.
This makes me not want to counter-suspect Greenie (dang) because if she were a wolf she'd know I won't, so writing this would be a waste of bandwidth.


I find his acrobatics around it just puzzling (as in, firstly, as an argument it's horribly meta and I am not even sure what it should mean, and secondly and more importantly, I am not even sure Pitch knows himselfFinally someone who gets me!

[Thinlómien]

Maybe it's just because I suspect them both, but Lottie's sudden defense of Huin rubs me the wrong way. Especially since she's talking about him being the same as in "previous games" like it was a point in his favour, while we have talked in length about Huin recently having been a wolf. That argument just doesn't add up.


edit: xed with both again

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, seems like things are heating up, but I realise that I should vote soon (or rather, very soon) too, because I am certainly not staying up for DL, so...

I would personally prefer to vote for Greenie, even though it does not seem like much of a thing; but then again, majority of people have not voted yet.

A moment to think.

EDIT: whoa, x-ed with several

[Loslote]

(I realise I've offered no alternative, but "the most lurky" seems as fair a way to do it as any. Actually... can I propose a rule for future games? No? Okay, but let me put a pin in this for post-games. I have a rule-change proposal. :p )

I would agree with this, but we don't have anyone who could qualify as a 'lurker' who I would be willing to vote. It's Soriman's first game, so it's expected that he'll be posting less often as he gets the hang of the game, Sally is usually quieter, especially on Day 1, I've really appreciated Kath's posts when she was here, and I think I'm next up for quantity of posts... :eek:

[Huinesoron]

I would personally prefer to vote for Greenie, even though it does not seem like much of a thing; but then again, majority of people have not voted yet.


I think I remember voting an innocent Morsul who felt a lot like this one out in my first game, so I would prefer Greenie at the moment, barring possible ties.

hS

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I think I will just go with my top suspect. I am sure there is still a lot that may happen before DL, but I have to go to sleep. I would be okay with Hui as well, but I still think Greenie has been acting in a more definedly suspicious manner.

++Greenie

Good Night, village, and may we sleep safely.

EDIT: x-ed with Hui

[Boromir88]

Form... I don't know. Are you actually taking a stance that it's impossible to read anything off anyone on Day One, despite all the suspicion flying around? Because that seems pretty tenuous for an innocent.


I think Form's stance is usually it's impossible to make anything of Day 1, meaning on toDay. It's only useful when we get to Day 2 after we know the roles of the lynch and the pack's night kill (or failure to kill).

I agree with him, that as much as he grumbles about it, he is always willing to engage in whatever is going on. I would say to him it's more "try to pick out the quiet and uncontroversial" people on Day 1s.

As there are likely to be a, or multiple loud/controversial wolves in a pack, they always get tripped up from their blabbing mouths or grab the attention of the seer.


As for most suspicious to be perfectly unhelpful everyone is giving off fumbling in the dark vibes and I don’t see any discernible patterns that I usually jump on even if a bit backwards and in a “makes sense in my head and no one else’s” arguably Boro’s rather strong defense of me is counter intuitively a small flag because unless he’s a wolf he wouldn’t be sure I’m an innocent.


Well, I wouldn't take my posts and question to Lottie as a strong defense of you, ergo I know your role at all. I was just wondering why it's considered strange when someone (you) were getting direct suspicions from someone else (Huey), that you would then focus on and respond to Huey.

I think I got a good read on Lommy and can see the genuine flip-flop Lomminess and frustrated with Form's Day 1 attitude.

I'm still slightly concerned about Greenie. She seems careful still not to commite towards anything.

I'm more concerned with Lottie. She's usually more aggressive and in your face. I'm reading her response to my question in a "alright, let me just back away a bit from Morsul/Huey so I don't get implicated early."

Sure, but to the exclusion of all else? And with somewhat dramatic shifts in opinion (that were strongly stated for being based on not much to begin with? Like I said, it could be an ordoMorsul with tunnel vision, or it could be a wolfMorsul trying to invent suspicions. The one scenario I don’t think is likely is both of them being wolves - and the interactions from Morsul to Huin look more targeted than the other way around, so I’m more able to draw conclusions about Morsul then I am about Huin, who has been very active on a number of fronts so far.


Thoughts? Someone argue and be my contrarian.

Neutral on Form, Pitch, Kath and Legate so far. Hopefully since I'll be around from now until the DL I will have more conclusions when I read their recent posts more than just scanning them.

Edit: Ooof x'ed with a lot

[Loslote]

Maybe it's just because I suspect them both, but Lottie's sudden defense of Huin rubs me the wrong way. Especially since she's talking about him being the same as in "previous games" like it was a point in his favour, while we have talked in length about Huin recently having been a wolf. That argument just doesn't add up.

My memory may be imperfect, but what I remember from playing with Huinwolf was feeling like we were on the same page, he's contributing great stuff, top of my innocent list, and then Legate caught something - a vibe or what, I don't remember - and we voted him out over a very short period of time. I am not getting that same vibe this game. Again, memory may be faulty - it's been a while - but toDay he feels more like the innocent Huin that I've played with before, who is always the first person stirring the pot and poking and prodding people. I'm not saying I trust him fully, just that I don't suspect him, and I think the people who are pushing that suspicion are pulling it a bit out of thin air. It's Day 1 - that's understandable - but you're acting like it's blatantly obvious that he's a wolf and it's bizarre that I'm not on board with that suspicion, when really, there's nothing more to this suspicion than there is to any other suspicion based on zero information. It's really easy to suspect Huin, and I don't know why you're so convinced of his wolfyness based on, from my perspective, not a ton to back it up.

[Pitchwife]

I think I remember voting an innocent Morsul who felt a lot like this one out in my first game, so I would prefer Greenie at the moment, barring possible ties.
hS
What I was saying above.


I thought earlier that Greenie might fit the job description for the X wolf steering clear of the Hui/Morsul business, but I don't really see anything screaming wolf in her (yet). I might go for Lottie or Kath.

[Blind Guardian]

Approximately 1 hour left. Here's the current vote tally, assuming I'm not x-posting with anyone.

Kath -> Morsul
Greenie -> Pitchwife
Morsul -> Huinesoron
Lommy -> Huinesoron
Legate -> Greenie

[Pitchwife]

Maybe a definitive statement about the breaking of ties, your Moddesses? (since Hui asked on the Admin thread and wasn't answered) First/Last/My Everything?

[Loslote]

I thought earlier that Greenie might fit the job description for the X wolf steering clear of the Hui/Morsul business, but I don't really see anything screaming wolf in her (yet). I might go for Lottie or Kath.

Really? I get why someone might vote for me, there's been some suspicion flying around, but it seems frankly bizarre to me that you're considering voting for Kath just because she suspected Morsul. I understand you have your Lottie, Kath, and X theory, but that's really not very substantial and a bit convoluted - and frankly, if Kath and I were packmates, we probably wouldn't both spend so much time suspecting the same person - and there has been a lot more going on in the thread since then. I'm surprised that's still your best bet in terms of who to vote.

[Formendacil]

So, barring another option (like rescuing someone off a bandwaggon), I'm probably going to vote "too quiet." Here are my very-impressionistic (like, Monet with wearing bottle-ends) rankings of quietness:

Boro - Not Quiet
Formendacil - Me
Greenie - Not Quiet
Huinesoron - Not Quiet (Quiet by his standards?)
Kath - Quiet (but not bad for Kath)
Legate - Not too Quiet (Quiet for Legate?)
Lommy - Not Quiet
Loslote - Quietish but Waking up
Morsul - Not Quiet
Pitch - Not Quiet
Sally - The Most Quiet
Soriman - Quiet, but gets the Newbie 1-Day Free Pass

On the basis of this very quick list, I would likely aim for either Sally or Kath under this rubric and on the basis of nothing more than gut and the ill-digested remnant's of last year's game, I would lean Sally.

Which, I suppose, is kind of an honour. If I may refer to events of the First Age, time was that folks like Morm or Saucepan would be lynched Day 1 nearly every game "just to make sure" early. So... you're welcome, Sally?

[Pitchwife]

I get why someone might vote for me, there's been some suspicion flying around, but it seems frankly bizarre to me that you're considering voting for Kath just because she suspected Morsul.
Not because she suspected Morsul, but because I found her reasoning rested on the assumption that one of Hui and Morsul was a wolf and Hui wasn't for reasons that I didn't and don't find convincing.

[Loslote]

On the basis of this very quick list, I would likely aim for either Sally or Kath under this rubric and on the basis of nothing more than gut and the ill-digested remnant's of last year's game, I would lean Sally.

I mean, I don't love this - it feels like an abdication of responsibility for your vote, which is a way for a wolf to not leave a trail - but a note for the future: IF Form or Huin or, I'd say, Greenie turn out to be a wolf, Form seems to be gearing up to throw his vote in a completely different direction, which a) doesn't save the people on the chopping block and b) doesn't leave a trail connecting Form to either of them. That probably suggests Form isn't a packmate with either of them. Again, just a note for the future.

[Blind Guardian]

Maybe a definitive statement about the breaking of ties, your Moddesses? (since Hui asked on the Admin thread and wasn't answered) First/Last/My Everything?

I reached out to G55 but she's not going to be on for a while. I would assume it's first come, first served. But I'll defer to G55's wisdom.

[Loslote]

Not because she suspected Morsul, but because I found her reasoning rested on the assumption that one of Hui and Morsul was a wolf and Hui wasn't for reasons that I didn't and don't find convincing.

I mean, that's not the argument I thought was being made. I thought the argument was "that's kind of weird that Morsul isn't talking to or about anyone other than Huin...if Morsul IS a wolf, Huin probably isn't his packmate." I didn't see anyone making the assumption that Morsul therefore was a wolf. On my part, anyway, I was interested by what I saw as a strange behavior pattern and I speculated about the scenarios in which that behavior pattern made sense, and used that speculation to rule out one possibility (Morsul and Huin being packmates). I do think it's useful to think about likely packmate combinations, and I have found it helpful to refer back to those early possible connections or dis-connections later in the game.

[Galadriel55]

Saying it here as well as on the Admin Thread, FIRST person to tie is lynched. That is, if you guys make a tie.

(Catching up to the thread)

[Formendacil]

Lottie's response to me first talking about "voting the lurkers."

I would agree with this, but we don't have anyone who could qualify as a 'lurker' who I would be willing to vote. It's Soriman's first game, so it's expected that he'll be posting less often as he gets the hang of the game, Sally is usually quieter, especially on Day 1, I've really appreciated Kath's posts when she was here, and I think I'm next up for quantity of posts... :eek:

Lottie when I actually post about it:

I mean, I don't love this - it feels like an abdication of responsibility for your vote, which is a way for a wolf to not leave a trail - but a note for the future: IF Form or Huin or, I'd say, Greenie turn out to be a wolf, Form seems to be gearing up to throw his vote in a completely different direction, which a) doesn't save the people on the chopping block and b) doesn't leave a trail connecting Form to either of them. That probably suggests Form isn't a packmate with either of them. Again, just a note for the future.

I mean, absolutely, yes, if this is me saving a wolf or making myself innocuous, then this will look bad later. By the same token, if Sally is a Wolf, then the first quote looks like subtly nudging away from a packmate and Post 2 looks like setting me up for future scapegoating if/when it turns out Huin or Greenie is a lynched innocent.

All of which is to say... Wild Mass Guessing. Lottie's probably innocent, except for the fact that she accused me, and that raises my suspicions.

[Loslote]

Lottie's response to me first talking about "voting the lurkers."

Lottie when I actually post about it:

I liked the idea in theory, but when I looked at what it would actually mean in this game, I didn't like what it would actually look like. But fair point.


I mean, absolutely, yes, if this is me saving a wolf or making myself innocuous, then this will look bad later. By the same token, if Sally is a Wolf, then the first quote looks like subtly nudging away from a packmate and Post 2 looks like setting me up for future scapegoating if/when it turns out Huin or Greenie is a lynched innocent.

All of which is to say... Wild Mass Guessing. Lottie's probably innocent, except for the fact that she accused me, and that raises my suspicions.

Excellent point - if Sally or Form end up being wolves, they are also unlikely packmates. ;) Also, I wouldn't say that I'm accusing you. I would put you just to the inno-leaning side of neutral at this point, in terms of overall impression. I saw the appeal of voting "lurkers" initially, I just found I didn't like it in practice once I'd had time to think about it and see what it meant in reality.

[Huinesoron]

Looking at the last few posts, the Lottie-Pitch and Lottie-Form interaction feels pretty innocent, and while I don't like Form's vote the absentee' plan, it has the virtue of consistency.

Since I think my two suspects (Morsul and Greenie) have both checked out for the night, and since the people still posting all feel innocent, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=730744&postcount=70) and vote:

++A LITTLE GREEN

Reasons include their vote being based on Pitch suspecting someone who suspected him; a certain amount of 'buddying-up' behaviour; and their comment about maybe not being here tomorrow when they weren't really under much suspicion, which feels like a guilty conscience.

hS

[Soriman the Whide]

I know there is a deadline but if I am not prompted to vote as per the rules I read somewhere can i abstain from voting? I'd hate to see an innocent villager lynched on account of our misguided voting, who is to say that these creatures will even strike again anyway?

[Huinesoron]

I know there is a deadline but if I am not prompted to vote as per the rules I read somewhere can i abstain from voting? I'd hate to see an innocent villager lynched on account of our misguided voting, who is to say that these creatures will even strike again anyway?

The rules in the admin post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19501) state:

"Living players [that's you] MUST cast a vote every Day while alive. Failure to vote for 2 Days in a row without extenuating circumstances will result in being sent to the Dead Thread prematurely."

[i]Someone's getting lynched toDay. Your vote can help decide who.

Current vote count:

Kath > Morsul
Greenie > Pitch
Morsul > hS
Lommy > hS [2]
Legate > Greenie
Huinesoron > Greenie [2]

With 6 left to vote.

hS

[Pitchwife]

I know there is a deadline but if I am not prompted to vote as per the rules I read somewhere can i abstain from voting? I'd hate to see an innocent villager lynched on account of our misguided voting, who is to say that these creatures will even strike again anyway?
Everybody hates seeing innocents lynched, but somebody will be lynched toDay, and if you don't vote you're just washing your hands. Wolves kill at Night, whether we lynch or not, and lynching is our only way of getting at them. So pick someone and remember, it's all just a game.

[Morsul the Dark]

I know there is a deadline but if I am not prompted to vote as per the rules I read somewhere can i abstain from voting? I'd hate to see an innocent villager lynched on account of our misguided voting, who is to say that these creatures will even strike again anyway?

I believe you’re allowed one missed votes per the rules.

[Galadriel55]

I know there is a deadline but if I am not prompted to vote as per the rules I read somewhere can i abstain from voting? I'd hate to see an innocent villager lynched on account of our misguided voting, who is to say that these creatures will even strike again anyway?

If you don't vote two Days in a row without extenuating circumstances, you'll be out of the game. If you don't vote toDay, you MUST vote toMorrow. This is as far as the official rules go.

Edit: crossed with a bunch of other responses to the same.

[Pitchwife]

Reasons include their vote being based on Pitch suspecting someone who suspected him; a certain amount of 'buddying-up' behaviour; and their comment about maybe not being here tomorrow when they weren't really under much suspicion, which feels like a guilty conscience.

hS
TBF an innocent Greenie would have no way of knowing whether I wouldn't feel provoked into eating her toNight... and neither would an innocent Hui. Hasn't that occurred to you?

[Formendacil]

The deadline is coming up and we don't have a definitive bandwaggon yet... but Hui and Greenie are frontrunners. I don't particularly suspect either, which doesn't help deciding if you should save either. If I wait any longer, a vote for the Lurkers is even worse than a vote now, so...

++Sally

[Boromir88]

Not really any more conclusions from a more thorough reading of Page 2.

I feel the best about Pitch and Lommy. Pitch's responses about Hui/Morsul/Legate got a bit convoluted, but the response here in why he was suspicious of Kath looks good.

Not because she suspected Morsul, but because I found her reasoning rested on the assumption that one of Hui and Morsul was a wolf and Hui wasn't for reasons that I didn't and don't find convincing.

I will also trust my read on Lommy in my last post. It's weak, but every time I read her posts and get the image that she's arguing with herself, like Smeagol/Gollum it's a good sign. I mean it might not be good for her own sanity, but that reaction is hard for someone to fabricate.

Lottie's the most off, just her posting all day is not what I've come to expect. She's typically a bigger ruffler than me, and right up there with Huey. But all day the responses are tame and reserved like here..."Ok I get it why you suspect me, but Kath?" And then misinterpreted why Pitch was suspicious of Kath.

Really? I get why someone might vote for me, there's been some suspicion flying around, but it seems frankly bizarre to me that you're considering voting for Kath just because she suspected Morsul. I understand you have your Lottie, Kath, and X theory, but that's really not very substantial and a bit convoluted - and frankly, if Kath and I were packmates, we probably wouldn't both spend so much time suspecting the same person - and there has been a lot more going on in the thread since then. I'm surprised that's still your best bet in terms of who to vote.

Seeing as time is running short and doing a quick check just to see if I've cross-voted with anyone...

++Lottie

[Loslote]

Okay, it's getting towards the deadline, and I'm still struggling a bit with this one. I would honestly prefer to vote Morsul or Pitch, but I don't know who all is still around to vote, so I'm probably going to go with one of the two candidates who've received multiple votes, at least in part to make sure it's less likely a sudden bandwagon on Boro's vote leaves me all alone in the Dead Thread (:eek:). I've been back and forth on Greenie all Day, but I suspect her more than I suspect Huin...

++Greenie

[Galadriel55]

Kath > Morsul
Greenie > Pitch
Morsul > hS
Lommy > hS [2]
Legate > Greenie
Huinesoron > Greenie [2]
Form > Sally
Boro > Lottie
Lottie > Greenie [3]



11 minutes to go!

[satansaloser2005]

Today has been insane and I'm not remotely caught up. Therefore, for the record....

++No one

[Pitchwife]

If it's between Hui and Greenie, I'd actually (Legate 180 incoming) rather go for Hui just now. Anybody else?

[Pitchwife]

sally, seriously?


++Hui
purely out of my guts because of #92

[Loslote]

If it's between Hui and Greenie, I'd actually (Legate 180 incoming) rather go for Hui just now. Anybody else?

Who's left to vote? Just you and Soriman?

[Pitchwife]

Who's left to vote? Just you and Soriman?
I'm afraid so. Probably too late.

[Galadriel55]

Stop posting. Greenie is first to reach vote count and is therefore lynched. Narration to be posted in a few minutes.

All of you commenting on possible cobblers - did you forget there's a cobbler in the game?

[Blind Guardian]

By 456 of the First Age, Barahir was the champion of a feisty band of outlaws. They had seen betrayal by their own kinsmen, had been hunted like animals by the evil forces of Morgoth, and now had finally (he hoped) found peace at the edges of the Tarn Aeluin. The crisp mountain air and clear blue sky were marred only by the thick black clouds that hung over the nearby mountain range, a grim reminder of the evil that they fought against.

Barahir sighed and turned to his kinsfolk who had spent the day digging three graves and bickering endless amongst themselves.

“I like digging holes in gardens, not in graveyards,” a very tired Loslote said.

“Why are we digging three holes when there are only two bodies?” Morsul asked.

“Technically, Gorlim merely left…” Legate said.

“Someone must pay for this treachery!” Sally yelled. “Whomever killed my Gal is going to face judgement.” This was met with a uniform cheer of support.

“My friends and relatives,” Barahir began. “Today has indeed been sad. We lost two of our close friends and another has gone off and not returned. Must we make it even worse by killing one of our own on naught but vague suspicion?”

The outlaws looked around at each other. They nodded their heads and whispered amongst themselves.

“I believe we are all in agreement that someone must die,” Boro said.

“But who…?” Lottie asked.

“We have a 1/4th chance of killing a wolf”, said Morsul, ever optimistic.

“I feel that a blind 1/4 chance of getting a wolf may be a little optimistic though,” Soriman countered.

“Hui is giving me bad vibes and a headache,” Lommy said, pinching her temples. “Could someone do something suspicious already?!”

“Legate said something earlier about something that happened last year, but it didn’t happen as he said it did.” Pitch chimed in. “And I would know: I was there!”

"How about that Greenie ?" Legate asked.

"She's giving me bad vibes…" Hui agreed.

"I am innocent, I can assure you," Greenie countered.

"That's what a wolf would say!"

“Then we are mostly in agreement that this is the correct course of action? The two graves shall contain G55 and BG and the third will contain Greenie,” Barahir said.

“She has acted the most suspicious over the last Day!” Hui said.

"Then so it shall be!" Barahir declared.

The outlaws rounded up Greenie as she protested.

"You're making a mistake!" She yelled. "Those fiends have misled you!"

They carried her over to the third grave, where someone picked up an ax and shoved it deep into her chest. She bleed out quickly and collapsed into the grave. Dead and very, very human.


The Living
Boro
Formendacil
Huinesoron
Kath
Legate
Lommy
Loslote
Morsul
Pitch
Sally
Soriman

The Dead
Gorlim (NPC/Ghost)
Galadriel55 (Night 1)
BlindGuardian (Night 1)
Greenie (Day 1 - Ordo)


It is now Night 2

By the way, there is no cobbler in the game. This was just G55 cobbling from beyond the modsphere.

[Galadriel55]

Thus begins the second night of the end of the outlaws of Dorthorion. The werewolves had begun their quest of death and destruction on behalf of the Dark Lord Sauron. Their orders: to slaughter everyone in the camp. The outlaws went to sleep in their huts and tents, thinking that the walls weren’t sturdy enough. Wishing that they had added just a bit more reinforcements. Sleeping with a dagger under their pillow.

The three werewolves had gathered in a darkened corner of the camp and plotted quietly.

“We did well!” the smallest one said.

“So well! They killed one of their own!”

“The Master will be proud!” the largest and furriest wolf whispered proudly.

The werewolfs cackled wildly, but quietly.

“Now who shall we kill next?” the small one asked, clicking its sharp claws together expectantly.

They looked around at the randomly placed tents and huts. Some huts were in nicer repair than others, but most the tents didn’t stand up straight. One, Pitch’s most likely, was almost completely sideways, but somehow defying gravity and still standing.

“A seer would be nice.”

“But which one contains the sleeping seer?” the small one asked.

They sniffed the air, wagging their tails excitedly. “It smells like meat and it’s making me hungry!”

“Then let’s eat!” the big one said, lunging for the nearest tent.

The clawed and ripped at their prey so viciously the person was dead before the second blow. They dragged their prey over the wall, ripping limb from limb as they went. The rest of the outlaws barely had time to lift their heads from their pillows before the carnage was over. They picked up swords and went running towards the sounds of growls and grunts, but all that remained were blood splattered stones and tufts of hair.

++Formendacil’s sword hilt was gleaming in the faint lamp light, surrounded by wood, fabric, and blood.

The Living
Boro
Huinesoron
Kath
Legate
Lommy
Loslote
Morsul
Pitch
Sally
Soriman

The Dead
Gorlim (NPC/Ghost)
Galadriel55 (Night 1)
BlindGuardian (Night 1)
Greenie (Day 1 - Ordo)
Formendacil (Night 2 - Ordo)


It is now Day 2

As a reminder, Sally and Soriman are required to vote toDay. Sally, if you are having trouble catching up to the game for RL reasons, please let us know.

Awesome narration courtesy of BG.

[Boromir88]

...Interesting. May Form and Greenie be at peace and you be granted the wisdom to aid our band from beyond the grave.

First point, now that I think about it. I'm not going to listen to any plans from anyone who wants to try to direct the ghosts on what to do for us here. I won't be making any plans and I strenuously suggest no one else does either, but to each their own.

Secondly, going to have to see a lot more from sally and Soriman today.

[Blind Guardian]

First point, now that I think about it. I'm not going to listen to any plans from anyone who wants to try to direct the ghosts on what to do for us here. I won't be making any plans and I strenuously suggest no one else does either, but to each their own.


Just a reminder this is against the rules.


The Living cannot give specific instructions to the Ghost, under punishment of Isildur's Curse: they shall be banned from both the Living and the Dead threads. They are allowed to ask the Ghost questions, and of course allowed to discuss the Ghost's statements.

[Galadriel55]

Just a reminder this is against the rules.

To clarify the clarification though:

It is against the rules to give specific instructions to a haunting Ghost. There is no haunting toDay, no active Ghost.

Technically, there is no rule saying the Living can't tell the Dead how to vote, which is I think what Boro meant by directing the ghosts. You will not be kicked out into the Void for bossing the DT around, though you will probably earn some ghostly glares. :D Do not boss haunting Ghosts around on the GT when/if they do come, because that will bring Isildur's Curse upon your head.

[Boromir88]

Just a reminder this is against the rules.

I think I may have worded that incorrectly. I didn't mean "giving direction to the ghosts" (as in the person that is selected to return as a ghost) but "giving direction to the dead players on what person they should vote for today as a way of giving the living information." Those were the plans I meant, which I presumed were still ok...? Great if that isn't because I would ignore it anyway.

Edit: Crossed with Modler55, thank you. Yes.

[Morsul the Dark]

So, Form dying throws a bit of a wrench in my initial thoughts. I figured if I survived the night I’d have some thoughts.

Obviously they voted Sally which for me is a predicament. I do think her initial post of “around but tired” then just a non commital “no vote vote no time” post. I find that frustrating and easily a wolffish submarine tactic. HOWEVER, the night kill obvious points at Sally which makes me think it’s too obvious it’s her and therefor not her. But also it could be a move set on making that argument and it IS her.

It could also just be a distraction with very little strategic value other than chaos.

[Boromir88]

Obviously they voted Sally which for me is a predicament. I do think her initial post of “around but tired” then just a non commital “no vote vote no time” post. I find that frustrating and easily a wolffish submarine tactic. HOWEVER, the night kill obvious points at Sally which makes me think it’s too obvious it’s her and therefor not her. But also it could be a move set on making that argument and it IS her.


I always go under the presumption the wolves target the Seer first, or who they think might be the Seer. If there are no leads to a Seer then the next option is other gifteds (it would just be the Ranger in this case). But the Ranger is difficult, because there's really no reason they would come out and leave any clues unless they had to reveal because possibility of getting lynched. So, after that, the priority becomes "no trail kill" or "make a false trace kill."

If they were going with the "no trail kill" and thus that's why Form was targeted that doesn't make much sense. Form was pretty wishy-washy in who he suspected, but he did leave a trail. If they were going "no trail" I would think sally or Soriman would have been the choice, because Form certainly did list people so he did leave a trail.

The question becomes is it a "false trail" like to try to get us to lynch sally as you have pointed out.

Before heading away for the "night" hopefully I'll get a Form-alysis and voting breakdown down from Day 1.

[Morsul the Dark]

Been about a half hour so I don’t feel too bad double posting. Of all the Greenie votes Lotties strikes the others chord she specifically says she’d rather vote Pitch or myself but then chooses between Huin and Greenie. Don’t get me wrong I get wanting to stay in the game but is this ordo wanting to keep playing or Wolf self preservation?

Also the toss up slightly puts Huin into a tiny bit of suspicion because could’ve been saving a pack mate. But would she put her neck that far out for a pack mate on day 1?

Edit: Xed Boro

[Loslote]

One quick thought about the Form kill, and then I'll be around more in an hour or so. Form was very explicit about voting based on who was posting most actively, which means Sally and Soriman by default. That seems important to me: it was a "by default" vote, it could have been anyone, those two just happened to have posted least. The wolves might have seen that as a Seer making sure no one thought their vote was based on a dream in the event of their death - if you don't leave a clear trail, at least you don't leave a false one. And who except the Seer cares about not leaving a false trail?

On the other hand, if Sally is a wolf, it would be very hard for a Seer who had dreamed of her to push her, given her limited participation. The wolves might have seen Form's "vote the lurkers" strategy as him reaching trying to find a reason, any reason, to suspect Sally, and hoped that by killing him early, they could prevent him from ever coming out and saying his results. After all, "vote the lurkers" isn't crystal clear evidence of a dream, so they might be hoping to get away with it without implicating Sally so much so that she gets lynched.

Which scenario do I think more likely? Probably the first, but out of caution regarding the second, I would really like to see more from Sally toDay, and I'll be keeping a close eye on her, as well as on how people talk about this kill.

[Loslote]

Been about a half hour so I don’t feel too bad double posting. Of all the Greenie votes Lotties strikes the others chord she specifically says she’d rather vote Pitch or myself but then chooses between Huin and Greenie. Don’t get me wrong I get wanting to stay in the game but is this ordo wanting to keep playing or Wolf self preservation?

Also the toss up slightly puts Huin into a tiny bit of suspicion because could’ve been saving a pack mate. But would she put her neck that far out for a pack mate on day 1?

I suspected Greenie more than I suspected Huin. First to reach the tie wins it, and I knew there were very few people left to vote (myself, Pitch, and Soriman and Sally, who were unlikely to vote at all). I wasn't very afraid for my own life in this game, because I didn't think Sally or Soriman would vote for me, but you never know. Also, I didn't know what Pitch was going to do - I had zero clue what he was doing all Day yesterDay. I had a preference, was pretty sure my vote would be the deciding one if it came in before Pitch's, and I trust myself (knowing I'm innocent) more than I trust Pitch (whose alignment is unknown, and whose behavior worried me).

[Morsul the Dark]

Boro - seems Level headed though not sure I quite understand the Lottie vote. However I do think it might’ve sparked a panic vote.
Huinesoron- Slight suspicion from the Lottie save but I guess agressive is their go to? I literally don’t remember anyone’s playing style.
Kath early vote still feels safe. But not wolffish just... safe.
Legate- need to reread I honestly haven’t looked too thoroughly at their posts.
Lommy- same as Legate.
Loslote- fair explanation. Not sure I accept it but it seems sincere enough. Moving to suspicious but not definitely wolffish.
Morsul hey it’s me. I’m innocent. Moving on
Pitch- seems pretty sensible throughout.
Sally definitely needs to post more.
Soriman- newbie pass I feel a new wolf would be more panicky?

Top suspects in order

Lottie
Sally
Huin
Kath

Least suspicious

Boro
Pitch

[Boromir88]

Kath > Morsul
Greenie > Pitch
Morsul > hS
Lommy > hS [2]
Legate > Greenie
Huinesoron > Greenie [2]
Form > Sally
Boro > Lottie
Lottie > Greenie [3]
Pitch > hS [3]

No vote: sally, Soriman
[Italics for confirmed innocents]

Instead of looking at Form's vote here, because I think Lottie's point is a sound argument here:

One quick thought about the Form kill, and then I'll be around more in an hour or so. Form was very explicit about voting based on who was posting most actively, which means Sally and Soriman by default. That seems important to me: it was a "by default" vote, it could have been anyone, those two just happened to have posted least.

I want to look at Greenie's vote, because she's also now a confirmed innocent. Now she voted for Pitch, and Pitch ended up being the 3rd vote for Huey, which is actually a vote that didn't make make any difference. Greenie was the first to 3, so in the event of a tie, Pitch's vote is a safe one, knowing Greenie would be the one lynched. At that time sally declared ++No Vote, and you couldn't be sure what Soriman was going to do, but he had indicated he wouldn't vote for anyone.

So, Pitch's vote for Huey looks like a safe throw away.

Greenie's vote for Pitch and her explanation #56:
I'm not confident about this one, but it's 2 hours past bedtime for me and I can't stick around any longer. Basically, Pitch suddenly turning to suspect Lommy right after she started suspecting him, while carefully not mentioning any connection between the two, is arguably the dodgiest thing I've seen toDay. Lommy's interpretation of his Hui/Legate speculation as potential stumbling wolf-logic doesn't make him look better, either. It's flimsy, but less so than anything else I've got.

I'm not comfortable voting for Morsul because he does act more like a frustrated ordo at the moment, and if indeed innocent, would make an entirely too convenient Day 1 bandwagon. I may, however, want to revisit the subject with a fresher brain toMorrow if I'm still here.

With the hindsight bias of Greenie's role, this wouldn't tip off anyone in the pack that Greenie already knew Pitch's role. It's very much reasoned "Pitch did the dodgiest thing of the day in my opinion, suddenly turning to suspect Lommy." Her comment about Morsul could be taken possible seer with "I may want to revisit Morsul tomorrow if I'm still here."

So I'll have to do a Greenie post-alysis as well, with Legate, Huey and Lottie voting for her. Those 3 plus Pitch's vote and sally and Soriman's no votes are a nice list of 6 people to look into.

Edit: Crossed with Morsul and adding the names of who I'm quoting into the quote box, so it's easier to identify who said what.

[Loslote]

Boro - seems Level headed though not sure I quite understand the Lottie vote. However I do think it might’ve sparked a panic vote.
Huinesoron- Slight suspicion from the Lottie save but I guess agressive is their go to? I literally don’t remember anyone’s playing style.
Kath early vote still feels safe. But not wolffish just... safe.
Legate- need to reread I honestly haven’t looked too thoroughly at their posts.
Lommy- same as Legate.
Loslote- fair explanation. Not sure I accept it but it seems sincere enough. Moving to suspicious but not definitely wolffish.
Morsul hey it’s me. I’m innocent. Moving on
Pitch- seems pretty sensible throughout.
Sally definitely needs to post more.
Soriman- newbie pass I feel a new wolf would be more panicky?

Top suspects in order

Lottie
Sally
Huin
Kath

Least suspicious

Boro
Pitch

How is it possible that you have no impression at all on two of the more prolific posters in this game (Legate and Lommy)? Also, you had some very strong suspicions against Huin yesterday, and all you have now is "slight suspicion from the Lottie save"? You suspect Sally and Kath but have basically nothing to put by their names in your list? This list seems totally out of the blue and wishy-washy to me. And I'm really concerned by you deciding Boro and Pitch are both "sensible" and not at all suspicious with zero further discussion. I don't like that you wave away so many people (who have spoken a lot!) as having made no impression and lump other people in "seems sensible and therefore innocent". It reads to me as a wolf who is trying not to build strong ties to other wolves, but wants to either a) establish a loose wolf-on-wolf suspicion for future deniability or b) subtly sway public opinion in favor of a packmate. I feel like I always suspect Morsul, so I might be reading into this too far, but I really get the heebie jeebies off of this post.

[Morsul the Dark]

How is it possible that you have no impression at all on two of the more prolific posters in this game (Legate and Lommy)? Also, you had some very strong suspicions against Huin yesterday, and all you have now is "slight suspicion from the Lottie save"? You suspect Sally and Kath but have basically nothing to put by their names in your list? This list seems totally out of the blue and wishy-washy to me. And I'm really concerned by you deciding Boro and Pitch are both "sensible" and not at all suspicious with zero further discussion. I don't like that you wave away so many people (who have spoken a lot!) as having made no impression and lump other people in "seems sensible and therefore innocent". It reads to me as a wolf who is trying not to build strong ties to other wolves, but wants to either a) establish a loose wolf-on-wolf suspicion for future deniability or b) subtly sway public opinion in favor of a packmate. I feel like I always suspect Morsul, so I might be reading into this too far, but I really get the heebie jeebies off of this post.

A good chunk of my Huin suspicion yesterday was reactionary in retrospect.

And yes prolific.(Leg and Lom) They post a lot and long posts. If you want some truth I skim a lot. So longer posts become white noise.

I dedicated my first post to Sally but I’ll recap she doesn’t post a lot and gave no vote leaving literally zero info which is an easy way to avoid suspicion.

I’ve been consistent on Kath I think her early vote is convenient for a wolf.

Sensible Boro and Pitchyes they’ve seemed level in a way that doesn’t give me bad vibes.

I suppose wishy washy is fair but since I have no special knowledge of who is innocent and who isn’t I can’t really give more solid opinions forth.

As for out of nowhere? Opinions based on day 1z

[Loslote]

As for out of nowhere? Opinions based on day 1z

You say that, but you changed several of those opinions without acknowledging that in your list post. You can see where that comes off as odd for those of us who remember what those stated opinions were yesterDay! Your admitting that you backed off on your Day 1 Huin suspicion helps a lot with that impression, but any time someone has a significant opinion change overNight, that's going to ping radars - did you and a packmate decide to make a different play? Were you part of a conversation that changed how you're thinking about the game and you didn't quite realize we wouldn't have had that context? Or did you just get a good night's sleep and were able to look back with a clearer head? I really appreciate you clarifying - your clarification sounded more like an ordo who had just overreacted yesterDay and less like a sinister, wolfish conspiracy, which is what I was fearing. :p

[Morsul the Dark]

did you and a packmate decide to make a different play? ... and less like a sinister, wolfish conspiracy, which is what I was fearing. :p

Oh I think we both know I’m not disciplined enough for that.:D

[satansaloser2005]

Sorry I couldn't catch up yesterDay; work has been eating me alive. :(

Speaking of eaten alive, why Form? My egocentric guess is that it was done to throw suspicion my way, but the joke is on you, wolves! I can be suspicious based solely upon my schedule, it seems.

Back shortly with a little listy. Fair warning, tomorrow will be busy for me as well, and I'm working late, but I'll be on mobile with thoughts (and a vote!) later in the Day.

[satansaloser2005]

Boro being phantom-esque with his scheming toDay makes me feel good about him. Something about it feels genuine, and while I've been wrong about him before (don't hurt me, my prince!) I think my radar is correctly calibrated here.

I have the same gut feeling about Pitch, after his reaction to my (non)vote yesterDay. Unless he does something nasty, I think I trust him.

I'm always suspicious of Morsul because he is, somewhat like myself, a loose cannon. I'm not getting feelings one way or the other on him yet, so I'll leave him be for at least tonight and will revisit in the morning.

Speaking of Morsul, kind of, Lottie seems to be picking a fight with him. Rather, picking a suspicion with him. I don't necessarily disagree with what Pop is saying, but it seems more aggressive than she might be as an ordo. Pinging my radar again, this time the wolfy kind.

I get no read on Kath, which is normally safe, but again, I'll have to revisit later.

Other non-reads include Hui, Sori, and Lommy, although in her case, I'm suspicious of my lack of suspicion.

Last but not least, Legate is always evil and must die. :Merisu: I jest. I have no read on him either, but I'm sure that will rapidly change once he wakes up and posts some more.


So to put it in a quicker format....

Would currently vote: Lottie (for aggression), Lommy (gut instinct)
No idea: Hui, Sori, Legate
Would currently not vote: Boro, Pitch, Morsul, Kath

[satansaloser2005]

Welp, that double post (now triple, sorry) means it's time for me to go to bed. Hopefully our European friends will have a lot to say during my night and I'll wake up to some posts to play with. Until then, nighty night!

[Loslote]

Lottie's the most off, just her posting all day is not what I've come to expect. She's typically a bigger ruffler than me, and right up there with Huey. But all day the responses are tame and reserved like here..."Ok I get it why you suspect me, but Kath?" And then misinterpreted why Pitch was suspicious of Kath.

Speaking of Morsul, kind of, Lottie seems to be picking a fight with him. Rather, picking a suspicion with him. I don't necessarily disagree with what Pop is saying, but it seems more aggressive than she might be as an ordo. Pinging my radar again, this time the wolfy kind.

This is why I never bother to try to play a certain way or act "normal", no one can agree on how I play "normally" anyway. Am I normally aggressive? Am I normally a ruffler? Chalk this one up to the duality of man. :D:p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I just spent like an hour by analysing the votes, so I'm gonna do this first. But before that, regarding Form's death...

Obviously they voted Sally which for me is a predicament. I do think her initial post of “around but tired” then just a non commital “no vote vote no time” post. I find that frustrating and easily a wolffish submarine tactic. HOWEVER, the night kill obvious points at Sally which makes me think it’s too obvious it’s her and therefor not her. But also it could be a move set on making that argument and it IS her.
This actually is a thought process I can more or less follow and agree with. But I even more agree with Boro on that obviously, the WWs would be interested in getting rid of the Seer first. That - unless they are acting in some really unorthodox manner - basically means that a) they thought Form was the Seer, or b) by way of negation there was nobody they thought more likely to be the Seer. Which is something to consider too.

Otherwise: voting. Okay, let's have the list for convenience:

Kath > Morsul
Greenie > Pitch
Morsul > hS
Lommy > hS [2]
Legate > Greenie
Huinesoron > Greenie [2]
Form > Sally
Boro > Lottie
Lottie > Greenie [3]
Sally > no vote (thus making it clear at this point that her vote wasn't following)
Pitch > hS [3]
(not voted: Soriman)

It is quite interesting that the first couple of votes (Kath's for Morsul and Greenie's for Pitch) were eventually completely forgotten. From purely analytical point of view, in the small numbers in the village, I think we actually had a "healthy spread" of votes (meaning, not just one huge bandwagon for one person, and not even two bandwagons - there were two, but "big" here meant three votes, and there were votes for four completely different people still).

I actually think this is "healthy" in the sense that it does not show the, hum hmm, "herd mentality", and individual votes are more... well, individual; therefore saying more about those who cast them. That is not to say that the spread does not make it an ideal place for throwaway votes.

Kath and Greenie voted early, so it was hardly throwaway; in fact, with Morsul being discussed, Kath might have expected him to gather more. The follow-up possibility is that if one of the first voted (i.e. Morsul or Pitch) was a Wolf, the steering away from these completely later might have been the result of a specific effort of other Wolves to steer clear of one or them (or, in the most extreme case, both).

Under this model, there are lots of singular votes that by themselves do not say much except that they are still creating alternatives (and at the same time are potentially throwaway). Whom I would put under scrutiny are actually the people who made the second votes, thus making the bandwagons roll (Lommy and Hui, with the added value that Hui was acting clearly with the bonus to prevent a wagon against himself - the question of course being that he could have equally well voted for Morsul or Pitch, if it was just about that). Either of them could have acted as Wolves protecting one of Morsul or Pitch (who had votes from before) by supporting bandwagons for somebody else.

Also knowing Greenie being innocent, Lottie's vote which "sealed the deal" might have been a way of Lotwolf to save a fellow Huiwolf from the noose. But I think a scenario where Hui and Lottie are both Wolves who voted in order to save Hui would be almost to good to be true. Of course, it is perfectly possible. But Lottie doing this specifically in order to save Hui requires multiple premises to be true first.

Interestingly enough, purely based on vibe when looking at the list of votes, Pitch's vote strikes me as rather sinister because he had his opinions, then voted for Hui. And that was at the point when Greenie was leading, and Soriman was left to vote (with it not being sure whether he will). So Pitch's vote was potentially throwaway (if e.g. again the scenario that Hui was a Wolf was true - he would no longer endanger a packmate and at the same time distance himself from him) and at the same time not getting his "hands dirty" in lynching an innocent.

The one visibly "throwaway" vote is Boro's (and Form's would be too), posted at the time when there were two "bandwagons" (the quotation marks are intentional, because they were two votes large at that point - on the other hand, again, like I said, in a village of this size that is already something...) and multiple other votes he could have tied for 2, and not so many people left to vote that one could reasonably assume casting one vote for Lottie would get her lynched. So, yes, that is one thing that raises my alertness when it comes to Boro.

That is more or less it when it comes to the votes.

With all this being said, I think that the words of Form from yesterDay have quite a big of merit and I would consider looking at those who were (or are) quieter and slipping under the radar. It is good to see sally around and posting, I hope also more will follow from Soriman.

More thoughts later, I will be back. *cue in Terminator theme*

[Thinlómien]

Just popping in to say that today is a terrible day to have a Day for me - I have a big deadline at work and I'm seeing friends in the evening. But I'll try to make a comment post on my lunch/coffee break(s) and I'll be around for the last few hours before the DL (might stay up until the DL since it's Friday).

As for the recent events -

The wolves killed Form?? Why? I think he only grumbled about Day1s and people not participating? Maybe a safe no trace kill? I'll see if I have time to have a better look at his posts, but my first reaction to these news is confusion.

And you guys lynched Greenie after I went to sleep??? You come into my house and lynch my sister?! When she didn't do anything suspicious?? Dishonour on you, dishonour on your cow! :eek::p Seriously though, I am quite baffled by this too, as Greenie seemed her normal innocent to me yesterDay, and she's not the type of player who usually gets lynched on Day1. (Yeah, I don't think it's fair some people gravitate towards getting lynched early regardless of their role, and some don't, but it's a thing. Someone like Greenie getting lynched on Day1 without a clear reason - I mean I might be biased because I didn't suspect her - makes me raise my eyebrows a little.) I will try to look at the lynch too.

[Huinesoron]

I was going to start by answering Pitchwife's question from late yesterDay (the answer being: no, it didn't particularly occur to me that Greenie would see their "flimsy... not confident about this" vote as being something that would attract overNight attention even from Wolf!Pitch), but then I looked at Pitch's history and I Have Questions.

These are the only comments I can find from Pitch on Greenie's alignment:


Greenie feels neutral, slightly on the goodish side.



I thought earlier that Greenie might fit the job description for the X wolf steering clear of the Hui/Morsul business, but I don't really see anything screaming wolf in her (yet). I might go for Lottie or Kath.

Whereas he spent a fair bit of time discussing ways I might be a wolf. So, Question 1:

If it's between Hui and Greenie, I'd actually (Legate 180 incoming) rather go for Hui just now. Anybody else?

How is 'staying with your previous opinions' now a "Legate 180"? Was the implication that he might pull a 180 in the future, er, eight minutes? If so, based on those previous stated opinions - why?

Question 2:

sally, seriously?

In context (the "anyone else?" from the previous quote), this seems very like frustration that Sally hadn't voted for me. In which case, if the previous quote indicates that Pitch has or might "Legate 180" between me and Greenie - why this exasperation at someone not enabling my lynch over Greenie's? It seems out of proportion with Pitch's indicated uncertainty/wavering.

With all that in mind, Question 3:


I have the same gut feeling about Pitch, after his reaction to my (non)vote yesterDay. Unless he does something nasty, I think I trust him.

Sally, what about Pitch's reaction looks particularly innocent/trustworthy to you?

hS

[Huinesoron]

Thinking about about Form's death - my first instinct was to say that even Wolf!Sally might not kill him as a suspected seer, because it would point the finger exclusively at her. I considered it more likely that he was a no-trail killing with a handy side-effect of implicating Sally.

But I've just remembered the Dead and the Ghost. The wolves know that the Seer's visions won't die with them - they can come back as a Ghost and attempt to convey them with no suspicion of lying. I think that tips the scales: they can't go "we'll kill him toMorrow Night when Sally looks less obvious as the reason", because that's another dream for the Seer that will come back to haunt them. I think they'd go for even a highly risky Seer-kill like Form's would have been for Sally.

Which means that if Sally isn't a wolf, then as Legate said a couple of posts back, none of the wolves felt they might have been scryed. I think that actually clears Morsul to an extent, because they could definitely have felt scryed yesterDay.

hS

[Boromir88]

Nothing like some Werewolf-searching after waking up in the morning. And even better when there's not a lot to catch up on.

Boro being phantom-esque with his scheming toDay makes me feel good about him. Something about it feels genuine, and while I've been wrong about him before (don't hurt me, my prince!) I think my radar is correctly calibrated here.

I think I have my sally-radar correctly calibrated as well. When you are busy-tired-wolf-sally you use the little time you have to try to create chaos. My first reaction to your no vote yesterday was "sally's been busy but it looks like she's trying to create chaos at the DL," which is why I was very interested to see what you would say today.

Your post #121 looks still busy-tired-sally but using the little time you have to genuinely help us by stating your opinions on where people stand with you. Now your no vote yesterday looks like you legit couldn't catch up and I can see an innocent-sally not wanting to vote for just anyone under those circumstances. It's a shame you'll still be busy-tired-sally, but now your vote and posts today look genuine and thus you were not attempting to create chaos popping in last minute Day 1.

This is why I never bother to try to play a certain way or act "normal", no one can agree on how I play "normally" anyway. Am I normally aggressive? Am I normally a ruffler? Chalk this one up to the duality of man.

Well, by "ruffler" I mean ruffling feathers, you tend to be on a similar level to Huey, in poking and annoying people, as you did with Morsul beginning today. I don't know if it says anything about your alignment, but I agree with sally that it looked aggressive, and that is theLottie I'm most familiar with, who didn't appear at all yesterday.

That's an oddly specific and seems too narrow a net you're casting in your vote-analysis Legate. I agree with the conclusion that you really can't say there was a "bandwagon" with any of the votes yesterday and I also like Day 1s where there is a good spread of who receives votes. A true Day 1 bandwagon, in our small band would have given us little in analyzing Day 1 votes.

Under this model, there are lots of singular votes that by themselves do not say much except that they are still creating alternatives (and at the same time are potentially throwaway). Whom I would put under scrutiny are actually the people who made the second votes, thus making the bandwagons roll (Lommy and Hui, with the added value that Hui was acting clearly with the bonus to prevent a wagon against himself - the question of course being that he could have equally well voted for Morsul or Pitch, if it was just about that). Either of them could have acted as Wolves protecting one of Morsul or Pitch (who had votes from before) by supporting bandwagons for somebody else.

This though is just very narrow and focused on only 2 people, Lommy and Huey (those who made the 2nd vote for either Greenie/Huey). Why do you ignore the 1st votes for Greenie or Huey? I'm not buying the "1st votes for someone aren't suspicious because it's still creating an alternative and thus the 2nd votes are more suspicious because those votes got a potential bandwagon going."

I mean I see you are the first vote for Greenie, so regardless of your alignment you're not going to suspect y ourself, but what about Morsul being the 1st vote for Huey? Why are the 2nd votes more suspicious than the 1st votes? Because 1 vote a bandwagon does not create, but the first vote for someone still has the potential to start a bandwagon, while also keeping relatively safe from scrutiny if there was a bandwagon.

I'm not sure if Pitch has trademarked it yet, but *ping* (if you have, Pitch, royalties will be sent :p)

Edit: crossed with Huey's 2nd post

[Morsul the Dark]

But I've just remembered the Dead and the Ghost. The wolves know that the Seer's visions won't die with them - they can come back as a Ghost and attempt to convey them with no suspicion of lying. I think that tips the scales: they can't go "we'll kill him toMorrow Night when Sally looks less obvious as the reason", because that's another dream for the Seer that will come back to haunt them. I think they'd go for even a highly risky Seer-kill like Form's would have been for Sally.
hS

That’s an interesting thought I hadn’t really considered the implications of the ghost strategy, and how it affects the wolves’ aggression. This certainly could point in Sally’s direction. But if your follow up is correct(they didn’t feel they were found out) there’s two possibilities;

1. None of the votes are wolves, this is unlikely just based on probability but not impossible.
This would clear Me, Huin, Pitch, Sally, Lottie. I can’t believe that. That would leave five players Boro, Lommie, Legate, Kath, and Sorimon in this crazy unlikely scenario 3/5 of those players are the pack.

2. Far more likely, if they didn’t feel they were found out, it’s likely if they received vote(s) the reasoning behind those votes didn’t trouble them. This requires a must closer scrutiny of votes and reasoning.

Xed Boro

[Huinesoron]

1. None of the votes are wolves, this is unlikely just based on probability but not impossible.
This would clear Me, Huin, Pitch, Sally, Lottie. I can’t believe that. That would leave five players Boro, Lommie, Legate, Kath, and Sorimon in this crazy unlikely scenario 3/5 of those players are the pack.

It's not quite that bad! Sally's voter was killed overNight, so they might have thought him the Seer. Pitch's voter was killed in the lynch, so they knew they weren't. That only leaves three of your "clears", and as you say:


2. Far more likely, if they didn’t feel they were found out, it’s likely if they received vote(s) the reasoning behind those votes didn’t trouble them. This requires a must closer scrutiny of votes and reasoning.


I've already said I think you come out looking pretty good. Obviously I'm not unbiased about myself, but I think wolf!Lottie would (or could) have seen Boro's vote as standard Day 1 reasoning-based.

(And since I trimmed the end off a sentence in my last post: this "clear" of Morsul only applies if Sally is innocent!)

hS

[Morsul the Dark]

So looking through the votes and reasonings the oddest one, to me, is Lommie’s vote which happens to overlap with Legate’s look at second votes thought.




I do suspect Hui for the bad vibes I'm getting. I'm just second-guessing my suspicion because it is, as I said, only based on "vibes". That's not very much, even for Day1.

As for Morsul, I think his defensiveness is fishy, but especially after seeing Kath's post, I am a little worried about Morsul's claim of always being an easy target becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.


++Huinesoron

I don't think anything would make me kick myself more than if I caught a wolfy vibe from him TWICE and let him off the hook because "maybe it's just his playing style" TWICE and he was a wolf BOTH TIMES.


edit: xed with everyone

So while not directly contradictory I do have to say that this stands out to me. Lommy(I’ll decide if it’s Lommy or Lommie at some point not this post.) talks about me accidentally bandwagonning myself, fair enough, but then adds the first second vote based on vibes for Huin. Truth is though while this is odd to me they were pretty consistent on Huin from the start. So that’s a thing.

Edit: just adding I just got called and will be doing a later shift so I might be voting early since I’ll be at work during DL and can’t guarantee I can sneak away. I may or may not have been told to get off my phone Wednesday :rolls eyes:

[Thinlómien]

I would agree with this, but we don't have anyone who could qualify as a 'lurker' who I would be willing to vote. It's Soriman's first game, so it's expected that he'll be posting less often as he gets the hang of the game, Sally is usually quieter, especially on Day 1, I've really appreciated Kath's posts when she was here, and I think I'm next up for quantity of posts...You want to vote for someone with only a few posts, but not Soriman because he is a newbie, not Kath because she's helpful, and not Sally... because she's Sally? I feel like Lottie is letting Sally off the hook a bit too easy here, which could be a wolf conveniently giving a fellow a pass on not particularly legit grounds. If either of Lottie or Sally turns out to be a wolf, I'd have a closer look at the other one.

My memory may be imperfect, but what I remember from playing with Huinwolf was feeling like we were on the same page, he's contributing great stuff, top of my innocent list, and then Legate caught something - a vibe or what, I don't remember - and we voted him out over a very short period of time. I am not getting that same vibe this game. Again, memory may be faulty - it's been a while - but toDay he feels more like the innocent Huin that I've played with before, who is always the first person stirring the pot and poking and prodding people. I'm not saying I trust him fully, just that I don't suspect him, and I think the people who are pushing that suspicion are pulling it a bit out of thin air. It's Day 1 - that's understandable - but you're acting like it's blatantly obvious that he's a wolf and it's bizarre that I'm not on board with that suspicion, when really, there's nothing more to this suspicion than there is to any other suspicion based on zero information. It's really easy to suspect Huin, and I don't know why you're so convinced of his wolfyness based on, from my perspective, not a ton to back it up. I did not mean that it was weird that you consider(ed) Huin innocent-seeming or defended him, just that your rather strong language there caught my eye, as well as the fabricated seeming argument based on his performance in previous games. Something about the combo made me think "wolf protecting a fellow she doesn't want to see lynched on Day1".

Side note: based on these two minor points, I would be really tempted to jump into contemplating a Lottie-Sally-Huin pack, but I don't think I've ever made a 100% correct pack prediction on day2 so... :D But if turns out to be them, then I TOLD YOU SO, ALREADY ON DAY2.

Ok now that I got that off my chest, let's proceed...

Everybody hates seeing innocents lynched, but somebody will be lynched toDay, and if you don't vote you're just washing your hands. Wolves kill at Night, whether we lynch or not, and lynching is our only way of getting at them. So pick someone and remember, it's all just a game. Can I have this on my tombstone? (Ok, maybe that's not a good thing to say during a ww game. :D) But really, beautifully articulated. I should maybe steal it for my signature. This is exactly why I hate people suggesting - on Day1 or otherwise - not voting as an option. It's just stupid. That being said, RL problems or no, I'm not a fan of Sally's no-vote. If you're an innocent, you should vote. Even if you haven't had the time to properly read through everything. By abstaining from voting, you're giving the wolves' votes proportionately more weight.

I will also trust my read on Lommy in my last post. It's weak, but every time I read her posts and get the image that she's arguing with herself, like Smeagol/Gollum it's a good sign. I mean it might not be good for her own sanity, but that reaction is hard for someone to fabricate.:D Finally, someone who understands me and my struggles!

I’ve been consistent on Kath I think her early vote is convenient for a wolf.Yeah but also the deadline is at midnight for her, so it's not a surprise if she chooses to vote early. Ergo, just "voting early" is not really a very strong grounds for suspecting her.

[Boromir88]

So Today's conspiracy theory post is centering on Legate.


:confused: I am not entirely sure how Boro's comment constitutes as "launching a Day 1s are pointless-debate".

Now Hui seems to be poking around inquisitively overall, which is an activity that by itself can serve both good and evil purposes, so if this is just a part of that, whatever; but the formulation (the not-outright-accusing, yet suggestive "I find it a little suspicious", while putting words into Boro's mouth) does not seem right to me. Even stranger is that Greenie basically repeats the same, which just gives me the vibe of "quoting without checking the source", i.e. having seen Hui slightly suspect Boro and just latch on to that. That would be a very good move for a Wolf to pull.

Overall it's just weird because I don't read it as Boro "launching" any "debate" on "Day 1 pointlessness" in the first place.

Clarifications, anyone?


Now yesterday I took this as a good point in Legate's favor. I wasn't attempting to launch a Day 1 debate and he observed that 2 people (Huey and Greenie) made it sound like I was and were attempting to point suspicion my way.

What is interesting to note here is that Greenie is lynched and now confirmed innocent. Then today...

Under this model, there are lots of singular votes that by themselves do not say much except that they are still creating alternatives (and at the same time are potentially throwaway). Whom I would put under scrutiny are actually the people who made the second votes, thus making the bandwagons roll (Lommy and Hui, with the added value that Hui was acting clearly with the bonus to prevent a wagon against himself - the question of course being that he could have equally well voted for Morsul or Pitch, if it was just about that). Either of them could have acted as Wolves protecting one of Morsul or Pitch (who had votes from before) by supporting bandwagons for somebody else.

So again, Legate narrows the discussion to 2 people (the ones who made the 2nd votes for someone yesterday). Those 2 people are Lommy and Huey. This makes the 2nd time Legate's steering to Huey + someone, but he offers up an extra point in Huey's favor that he was "voting to prevent a bandwagon against himself"

Now if I were to believe in conspiracy theories, it looks like Legate and Huey are packmates.

Huey's driving and getting the suspicions stirring against innocent people. Legate is narrowing in on Huey + 1 other, to softly suspect Huey and fall back on as a wolf-on-wolf vote, but trying to put the attention on the other person (Greenie Day 1 and now Lommy today).

Edit: crossed with Lommy

[Huinesoron]

Just noticed this from earlier toDay (emphasis mine):

...I didn't mean "giving direction to the ghosts" (as in the person that is selected to return as a ghost) but "giving direction to the dead players on what person they should vote for today as a way of giving the living information."

Um... what information?! They're a pair of ordos! The only information they could have is 1) their own beliefs and 2) some arbitrary piece of data from the Mods, selected from a list we've never seen; it would be literally impossible for us to gain information on that from a single vote. The fact that apparently you looked at that and went 'hmm, I bet people are going to try and construct a scheme to utilise this valuable resource' is just... like, did you forget that you didn't manage to kill the Seer, Borowolf? :D

With that in mind, I took a look at this:


That's an oddly specific and seems too narrow a net you're casting in your vote-analysis Legate. I agree with the conclusion that you really can't say there was a "bandwagon" with any of the votes yesterday and I also like Day 1s where there is a good spread of who receives votes. A true Day 1 bandwagon, in our small band would have given us little in analyzing Day 1 votes.


I happily accepted the 'narrow net' comment at face value on my first readover, but that's the point of a good wolf misrepresentation: it's close enough to true that people will remember the misdirect better than what it's purportedly summarising. In fact, looking at Legate's post #124, he not only discusses me and Lommy as 'second voters', but also highlights Pitch's vote as "sinister... potentially throwaway", and highlights "the one visibly throwaway" vote as... Boro, noting that it "raises my alertness when it comes to Boro".

So Boro's comment, which reductively summarises Legate's "net" as catching just me and Lommy, doesn't just ignore his comments on Boro - it strongly implies that they didn't exist, and looks very much like a wolfish attempt to memory-hole the suspicion.

The fact that this has now led into a self-titled Legate-hS "conspiracy theory" - didn't Pitch have one of those yesterDay? - does nothing to take away from that impression. (And yes, "if I were to believe in conspiracy theories" is another wonderful way for a wolf!Boro to put an idea out there without quite claiming to believe it... deniability, always deniability.)

hS

[Huinesoron]

So far today I suspect Pitch and Boro, plus Sally on procedural grounds (ie, if Form's death was an attempt to get the Seer then Sally is a wolf). It occurs to me that Pitch's late vote was a good way to let Greenie - who could have been a Seer who saw wolf!Pitch - get lynched while making Pitch look like he was trying to stop it.

I semi-clear Morsul on similar procedural grounds - if Sally isn't a wolf, then there's at least two people wolf!Morsul could see as potential Seers.

I was going to look at the other people who've posted today, but only have time for one. Lottie makes some solid points in their early Day 2 discussion with Morsul. Sally sees this as more aggressive than normal, while Boro (#128) "agrees with Sally", but then describes it as "the Lottie I'm most familiar with". I think that inconsistency (ie, is it too aggressive, or normally aggressive?) says more about Boro than it does about Lottie, so I'm not suspicious of Lottie at this time.

Still need to look at Lommy and Legate, and I hope we hear more from Kath and Soriman soon!

hS

[Thinlómien]

I have 15 minutes, so I'm going to look at Form's 9 posts:

#5, #44, #48, #52, #58 are mostly grumbling about Day1's. He was perhaps a little baited into this by Boro, and later, by yours truly, AND last by Hui. #52 also includes a joke (I presume) suspicion of me because I'm not finding his Day1 grumbling suspicious (anymore).

#61 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=730732&postcount=61) argues for Hui's innocence while acknowledging he might be making a terrible mistake. This makes Hui look a bit better to me - I guess the wolves could have interpreted this post as seer!Form defending his known innocent? (I mean obviously Wolfesoron could have also picked Form as a no trace kill, thinking that would make him look good, but that's getting a little convoluted. If Form's death has anything to do with Hui, it's more likely that he's innocent.)

#78 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=730756&postcount=78) ranks people based on how much they've contributed so far, saying:
I'm probably going to vote "too quiet."
Leans towards Sally, saying:
On the basis of this very quick list, I would likely aim for either Sally or Kath under this rubric and on the basis of nothing more than gut and the ill-digested remnant's of last year's game, I would lean Sally.

Which, I suppose, is kind of an honour. If I may refer to events of the First Age, time was that folks like Morm or Saucepan would be lynched Day 1 nearly every game "just to make sure" early. So... you're welcome, Sally?
Now this doesn't look like seerish suspicion to me, but whoever said it looks so unseerish maybe Sallywolf thought Formseer was trying to masquarade his suspicion of her as random while it was actually dream-based. Possible, but I'm not sure Sally of all people would be this paranoid as a wolf. She seems more happy go lucky and reckless usually. But yeah, also echoing whoever said that Form's death is one more reason to hope for more presence from Sally toDay. I'm sure I'm not the only one concerned about her flying under the radar, even if she has good RL reasons for her silence.

#84 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=730765&postcount=84) speculates about a Sally/Lottie wolf combo, but discards his own suspicion

#93, vote post, quoted in full:
The deadline is coming up and we don't have a definitive bandwaggon yet... but Hui and Greenie are frontrunners. I don't particularly suspect either, which doesn't help deciding if you should save either. If I wait any longer, a vote for the Lurkers is even worse than a vote now, so...

++SallyThis makes me think the wolves didn't think he was a seer who dreamed of an innocent Hui, unless you apply the same kind of "masquerading your seer dream as casual and lumping your dream target with another player in order to further hide it" logic that I said about a Sallywolf dream earlier. Anyway the wolves couldn't have thought he dreamed of both wolf-Sally and innocent-Hui, anyway.

Conclusions: ...yeah, not much to conclude. Maybe I'm a little more concerned about Sally and a little less concerned about Hui, but I don't think Form was very likely killed as a potential seer based on what he said about other players. I think it was more likely a no trace kill (with the side effect of implicating an innocent Sally? would the wolves make a no trace kill that actually implicates one of their own?) or because Form pinged the wolves' gifted radar for some reason I can't see.


edit: xed with Hui

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm at work, so more like a quick chime in. I should however have considerably more time couple of hours before DL.

Some generic thoughts:

As far as toDay goes, thus far, I am thinking Morsul comes across as genuinely trying to unravel things.

Sally seems to have lots of her thoughts based on "gut feeling", which is something one can't really verify, even though she is a lot more specific in regards to Morsul and Lottie. So that is at least some data - I would however prefer to see more. Her first post toDay came across as genuine, the second one was more all over the place.

Hui is very much active again, I find at least that he is giving things a thought. That said, his speculation about the Ghost and Seer in #127 sounds almost like he's given it too much of a thought, perhaps overNight (and then saying "he just remembered it"). But it may just be a byproduct of thinking things from very many angles, which I would understand.

Lommy's first post toDay seemed rather contentless, although that may be attributed to lack of time. The second one was however pretty analytical, to the point of some complicated constructions of Wolf packs; but she brings up good points about Sally and Lottie.

As for Lottie herself, I can't really make any clear image of her myself, the radar is blurry (and has remained so for a while). She is contributing and seems to bring up constructive points, but with what intent I can't decipher.

I am becoming increasingly unclear, if not suspicious about what Boro is up to, because while yesterDay I overall leaned towards trusting what he was doing, toDay I am increasingly dubious about what his role in everything is. It may be influenced partly by his throwaway vote yesterDay and lastly the conspiracy theory post - I cannot tell whether that is supposed to be a mental exercise or whether he is subtly trying to cast suspicion around. Besides, speaking of that:

This though is just very narrow and focused on only 2 people, Lommy and Huey (those who made the 2nd vote for either Greenie/Huey). Why do you ignore the 1st votes for Greenie or Huey? I'm not buying the "1st votes for someone aren't suspicious because it's still creating an alternative and thus the 2nd votes are more suspicious because those votes got a potential bandwagon going."

I mean I see you are the first vote for Greenie, so regardless of your alignment you're not going to suspect y ourself, but what about Morsul being the 1st vote for Huey?

I have never said that we should look only at these and disregard all the other votes (and I think a large share of my post was devoted to considering others, Morsul included). And you are right that Morsul started the bandwagon, and I am not contradicting that - even though I daresay that with having already a vote at that point, whether he is a Wolf or innocent, he would have likely acted similarly.

Anyway, typing this took a while as I was called off in the middle a few times - I am going to leave it at this now because I may end up being interrupted for an unknown amount of time any moment again, but as I said, I'll be around later after my work ends. I'd especially like to see Souriman and others who haven't appeared or posted much yet. The "lurkers" should not indeed be just left lurking (even though I think essentially everyone has been posting now).

EDIT: x-ed with Lommy and both Hueys

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, just as a remark, I see Hui has arrived to similar conclusions and spotting similar inconsistencies regarding Boro. That at least makes me think of genuine thinking on his part. Also Lommy's post looks fairly genuine, the kind of analysis a Wolf would not maybe even bother with in the first place.

Now off.

[Boromir88]

On my lunch, so only a chance to respond to something directly. Will be able to return in 4-ish hours and then around until the DL.


Um... what information?! They're a pair of ordos! The only information they could have is 1) their own beliefs and 2) some arbitrary piece of data from the Mods, selected from a list we've never seen; it would be literally impossible for us to gain information on that from a single vote. The fact that apparently you looked at that and went 'hmm, I bet people are going to try and construct a scheme to utilise this valuable resource' is just... like, did you forget that you didn't manage to kill the Seer, Borowolf? :D

Hmm...am I detecting at "let me distract Boro by trying to create an argument over something that has no bearing on who he suspects or plans to vote for." Thus derailing the day's conversation about Boro saying he would ignore any plans to direct the dead thread vote, instead of actually debating suspects and lynching a wolf today?

I think I do detect an attempted distraction. So, sorry Huey, won't engage in a conversation that looks like you're trying to derail and argue with me about something I said I was going to ignore.

What I will argue about though is Legate's vote analysis:

I happily accepted the 'narrow net' comment at face value on my first readover, but that's the point of a good wolf misrepresentation: it's close enough to true that people will remember the misdirect better than what it's purportedly summarising. In fact, looking at Legate's post #124, he not only discusses me and Lommy as 'second voters', but also highlights Pitch's vote as "sinister... potentially throwaway", and highlights "the one visibly throwaway" vote as... Boro, noting that it "raises my alertness when it comes to Boro".

So Boro's comment, which reductively summarises Legate's "net" as catching just me and Lommy, doesn't just ignore his comments on Boro - it strongly implies that they didn't exist, and looks very much like a wolfish attempt to memory-hole the suspicion.

You're right in that post he mentions my vote as a throwaway as mildly suspicious and Pitch's was "sinister." Not sure I like that comment very much. Pitch's vote is a throwaway in that it wasn't going to change the outcome, Greenie had already reached 3 votes first, but I don't know how that makes it "sinister."

But my "narrow net" comment is about how he waves away the other people who voted for Huey and Greenie. He sort of waves away the 1st votes (his and Morsul) under the "1 vote doesn't make a bandwagon, so the 1st votes were people offering more alternatives." And focuses the scrutiny on the people who made the 2nd votes (Lommy and Huey)...which as noted in my conspiracy post. It's the 2nd time that Legate has seemed to direct the scrutiny on "Huey + one other"

The reason it's a conspiracy is because I think Legate looks the worst out of the two (him and Huey). So, it's not out of the realm of possibility that Legate would simply attach himself to an innocent Huey to keep a smaller list of suspects.

Edit: crossed with Legate twice, have to be away though. Will return in 4ish hours
Edit 2: Changed the 2nd quote, I mistakenly assigned it to Legate. So corrected it to Huey

[Pitchwife]

Back from work and catching up.

How is 'staying with your previous opinions' now a "Legate 180"? Was the implication that he might pull a 180 in the future, er, eight minutes? If so, based on those previous stated opinions - why?
Because earlier I felt you and Morsul were most likely two innocent at odds(see #45) and one or more wolves might be fanning the flames. My speculations about the chances of your being a wolf were concerned with posts by others about you (as in the infamous case of Legate's temporary amnesia, or what Kath said about wolf-on-wolf between you and Morsul) rather than your own, which I didn't find very suspicious - so voting you was a "Legate 180" on my part, as in: a sudden turn manœuver named after him because he has it copyrighted, like Lommy for flip-flopping and the phantom for grand schemes.

As for Greenie, that part wasn't 180 - I wasn't happy with her voting me, but otherwise by the end of the Day I was willing to bet she was innocent.

In context (the "anyone else?" from the previous quote), this seems very like frustration that Sally hadn't voted for me. In which case, if the previous quote indicates that Pitch has or might "Legate 180" between me and Greenie - why this exasperation at someone not enabling my lynch over Greenie's? It seems out of proportion with Pitch's indicated uncertainty/wavering.
It was primarily frustration that she hadn't voted for anybody, but truth is I felt more confident that Greenie was innocent than I felt about you, and I'd have liked to save her, so yes, it was also frustration that the cavalry was failing to show up and my own vote ended up being effectively throwaway. If the choice had been between you and somebody else my vote might have been different.

[satansaloser2005]

Grrrr. Things keep popping up at work today, and it's my last day before I'm out for a week, so I'm horrendously busy. The good news is I will be around pretty steadily once today is over. The bad news is I will probably have to vote early because I don't want to forget again.

[Pitchwife]

Speaking of turns (although this is rather a quicksandy shift):
I don't want to vote for Huin, Greenie, or Pitch, all three of whom are people who've drawn votes and attention so far toDay. I might be willing to vote Morsul, but frankly, I think it's just as likely he's innocent as a wolf, so I don't love that option, either. Hopefully something changes before DL…

Okay, it's getting towards the deadline, and I'm still struggling a bit with this one. I would honestly prefer to vote Morsul or Pitch, but I don't know who all is still around to vote, so I'm probably going to go with one of the two candidates who've received multiple votes, at least in part to make sure it's less likely a sudden bandwagon on Boro's vote leaves me all alone in the Dead Thread (). I've been back and forth on Greenie all Day, but I suspect her more than I suspect Huin.

First to reach the tie wins it, and I knew there were very few people left to vote (myself, Pitch, and Soriman and Sally, who were unlikely to vote at all). I wasn't very afraid for my own life in this game, because I didn't think Sally or Soriman would vote for me, but you never know.

So, Lottie would have liked to vote two of the four people she'd earlier said she didn't want to vote, but with no support forthcoming, she ended up voting a third of the same four people because she suspected her more than the fourth. What happened?



Also, Lottie, since you didn't think sally or Sori would vote at all, if you were concerned for your own life you could have voted me (not that that would have been any better:smokin:), and by the Rule of First you would have been safe. So whom were you really trying to save, yourself or Hui?

[satansaloser2005]

What some people seem to forget about Pitch and I is that we were packmates in the last game, so I feel like I have a pretty good read on him solely based on that. Besides, and innocent Pitch would be aggravated by someone no voting, while this would obviously have benefited a wolf Pitch because he knew one of Greenie or Hui would die, and if he were a wolf with Hui, he wouldn't have pitched (har har) him for lynching in the first place.

[satansaloser2005]

Also, Pitch is making some great points about Lottie in his post above mine. I'm very comfortable voting Lottie today, though I'll still wait to see if something else comes out of the woodwork.

[Morsul the Dark]

So this is flimsy but I’ll toss it out there Lottie gave me a hard time for not having reads on two people but in Post 123 gave Sally a pass for the like four people she had no read on in her list.

This with her saving Hui

My very flimsy theory entirely contingent on WolfLottie is Sally Lottie Huin pack

Xed Sallyx2

[Kath]

I have had less time than expected so am just catching up!

Initial thoughts based on the end of yesterDay and the kill overNight are kind of summed up by a comment from Pitch yesterDay.

Everybody hates seeing innocents lynched, but somebody will be lynched toDay, and if you don't vote you're just washing your hands. Wolves kill at Night, whether we lynch or not, and lynching is our only way of getting at them. So pick someone and remember, it's all just a game.
Well said, and with that in mind the person who immediately springs to mind is sally. I know Soriman also didn't vote, but they seem to have missed the voting rather than chosen not to vote.

Kath --> Morsul
Greenie --> Pitch
Morsul --> Hui
Lommy --> Hui
Legate --> Greenie
Hui --> Greenie
Form --> sally
Boro --> Lottie
Lottie --> Greenie
sally --> no one
Pitch --> Hui

Soriman missed the voting

Choosing not to vote helps no one but the wolves, because it leaves no voting record. With Greenie on 3 and Hui on 2 it was a pretty vital moment and any vote would have been better information for toDay than no vote.

Then the kill. The wolves have to aim for the Seer, they can't afford not to. So either they saw something Seer-ish in Form, or they thought he'd dreamt of one of them. He voted for sally out of quite a few 'lurker' options he was thinking about, so even if killing him points toward a sally-wolf, the pack may have thought that getting potential Form-Seer out of the way early on was worth the risk.

Posting this then reading through toDay.

[Pitchwife]

Um... what information?! They're a pair of ordos! The only information they could have is 1) their own beliefs and 2) some arbitrary piece of data from the Mods, selected from a list we've never seen; it would be literally impossible for us to gain information on that from a single vote. The fact that apparently you looked at that and went 'hmm, I bet people are going to try and construct a scheme to utilise this valuable resource' is just... like, did you forget that you didn't manage to kill the Seer, Borowolf? :D
Exactly, it's useless, so we shouldn't waste any time trying to milk the Dead for info rather than try to catch wolves. (Does the name Macalaure mean anyting to you?) Isn't that just what Boro said?

[Loslote]

You want to vote for someone with only a few posts, but not Soriman because he is a newbie, not Kath because she's helpful, and not Sally... because she's Sally? I feel like Lottie is letting Sally off the hook a bit too easy here, which could be a wolf conveniently giving a fellow a pass on not particularly legit grounds. If either of Lottie or Sally turns out to be a wolf, I'd have a closer look at the other one.

If we voted Sally for being quiet on Day 1 every time it happens, Sally would never make it past Day 1 unless it conveniently fell on a weekend. I don't think it's fair to vote someone for something out of their control, especially because we know Sally does get more talkative later in the game and when she's not as busy. I would be willing to vote a "lurker" if it's someone who isn't posting much or is sticking to banter or whatnot even though they are clearly around and keeping up.

So this is flimsy but I’ll toss it out there Lottie gave me a hard time for not having reads on two people but in Post 123 gave Sally a pass for the like four people she had no read on in her list.

This with her saving Hui

My very flimsy theory entirely contingent on WolfLottie is Sally Lottie Huin pack

No offense, but if I was packmates with Huin and Sally, I would never be that blatant about not wanting either of them to be lynched! I didn't comment on Sally's list at all, I didn't "give her a pass", I just didn't comment on it. I don't have to comment on every list post that doesn't have strong feelings about people. Yours stood out to me because the two people you didn't have strong feelings about were people who had posted a lot, and you had stronger feelings about quieter people, which struck me as odd.

Speaking of turns (although this is rather a quicksandy shift):

So, Lottie would have liked to vote two of the four people she'd earlier said she didn't want to vote, but with no support forthcoming, she ended up voting a third of the same four people because she suspected her more than the fourth. What happened?

Let me explain what happened using your own words:

It was primarily frustration that she hadn't voted for anybody, but truth is I felt more confident that Greenie was innocent than I felt about you, and I'd have liked to save her, so yes, it was also frustration that the cavalry was failing to show up and my own vote ended up being effectively throwaway. If the choice had been between you and somebody else my vote might have been different.

I felt more confident about Huin than I did about Greenie. I strongly suspect both of them were/are innocent, and the wolves were sitting back breathing a sigh of relief. Obviously I could be wrong about Huin, but we were in exactly the same situation - we slightly trusted one over the other - I just got my vote in first. If you'd voted first, I would have been sitting there waiting for the cavalry.

Also, Lottie, since you didn't think sally or Sori would vote at all, if you were concerned for your own life you could have voted me (not that that would have been any better:smokin:), and by the Rule of First you would have been safe. So whom were you really trying to save, yourself or Hui?

Huin, obviously. I also wanted to vote early to ensure I would be safe, regardless of any last minute bandwagon, but the primary motivation was that I trusted Huin slightly more than Greenie. I am genuinely surprised you're the one harping on this, Pitch - the two of us were in exactly the same boat, we only differed by which person we slightly trusted more.

[Morsul the Dark]

I’ll be around for about 45 minutes on lunch break. I might be forced to vote at the end since it is quite busy. I hate voting early.

Lottie and Sally are my top choices Lottie for her vote and behavior as outlined before. Sally for decided no vote along with Form’s night kill.

Huin is next but a far third mostly based on Lottie’s vote which is out of their control so not solid.

I feel like we’d get more information from a LottieWolf than a SallyWolf

[Kath]

I haven't made it to toDay yet as I forgot how much I missed between voting and deadline yesterDay! Standing out to me from that is Hui.

As I read, it struck me that a lot of Hui's suspicion of Greenie was based on her seemingly taking other people suspicions and reiterating them. But in terms of Hui's suspicion of Greenie, they first agree with Legate that Greenie's comment about 'Boro launching the Day 1s are pointless debate' was overstating it and then use Legate's reasons against Greenie again to further suspect Greenie. So ... pot/kettle? Then we get:
Greenie is back, and what earlier looked like buddying-up now comes over as fairly considering each person's points.
Which seems to suggest Hui was then feeling better about Greenie, but then followed by Hui saying Greenie worrying about possibly not being alive the next Day smacked of a guilty conscience. I have to disagree with that. She was being talked about a fair amount, and I think that's a fear anybody has in WW.

Actually all the way through yesterDay Hui seems to be sort of following Legate's lead. Even in post #70 Legate suggests Greenie as a vote and Hui then suggests that would be a vote they'd be comfortable with.

I don't know that I'm saying there's a Legate/Hui wolf-pack here, but it struck me as odd.

[Loslote]

I feel like we’d get more information from a LottieWolf than a SallyWolf

If there was a LottieWolf, maybe. I am not a wolf. You will get no information from lynching me, and the people who are spending the whole Day barking up this tree are giving the wolves perfect cover in which to operate. Please, just look at one (1) other person toDay. The village doesn’t benefit from wasting the whole day suspecting the same (innocent, believe it or not) person.

[satansaloser2005]

I'm definitely not posting this while on a conference call. :rolleyes:

I don't want to vote super early, but the more Lottie talks, the more suspicious I'm finding her. Not that she doesn't make sense, but she seems more....touchy, though of course not in a mean way, just a suspicious way.

I'll be back over a break, at which point I'll have to vote. I'm working late tonight to make up for being gone next week, so I won't be able to be on again until after deadline.

Edit: x'd with Pop

[Loslote]

I don't want to vote super early, but the more Lottie talks, the more suspicious I'm finding her. Not that she doesn't make sense, but she seems more....touchy, though of course not in a mean way, just a suspicious way.

Well, yes. Several people have said nothing all Day except that I seem suspicious. I am getting tired of that - look at other options! My vote stands out because it was the deciding one. Well, if Pitch had voted before me and Huin had turned out to be innocent, maybe my vote would have been the throwaway vote and his would have been the one that saved Greenie and you all would think Pitch and Greenie were packmates. That's just the position we were both in at the end of yesterDay, because people didn't vote, and I strongly suspect two innocents were the ones most likely to go home. I made a decision. I didn't especially suspect Greenie, but I chose to keep Huin, and now you and Morsul are all but refusing to look at anyone else because of it. It is frustrating, and I am a bit touchy at this point. I'm not a wolf, and I really, really wish you guys would spend more time looking for wolves than just reiterating that you suspect me. I get it, I do, but please don't just let the wolves skate by completely unnoticed because you can't stop talking about me!

[Morsul the Dark]

If there was a LottieWolf, maybe. I am not a wolf. You will get no information from lynching me, and the people who are spending the whole Day barking up this tree are giving the wolves perfect cover in which to operate. Please, just look at one (1) other person toDay. The village doesn’t benefit from wasting the whole day suspecting the same (innocent, believe it or not) person.

I feel this. Definitely has frustrated ordo vibes. Also could be frustrated at saving a pack mate just to be thrown under the bus by other wolves. I don’t think there’s been a lack of suspects today.

Sally and Huin are on my radar. Legate is on others pitch features in others.

[Boromir88]

Alright, back for the rest of the day. I haven't read any posts after my last one #139 yet, I wanted to expand more on my suspicions about Legate's vote analysis post:

I have never said that we should look only at these and disregard all the other votes (and I think a large share of my post was devoted to considering others, Morsul included). And you are right that Morsul started the bandwagon, and I am not contradicting that - even though I daresay that with having already a vote at that point, whether he is a Wolf or innocent, he would have likely acted similarly.

True and I never claimed otherwise. 6 people voted for Greenie and Huey yesterday...in order it was:

Morsul > Huey
Lommy > Huey (2)
Legate > Greenie
Huey > Greenie (2)
Lottie > Greenie (3)
Pitch > Huey (3)

It's also true that you considered Morsul being the first to vote for Huey, but to me, you very clearly wanted to put the attention to those who cast the 2nd votes (Huey and Lommy)

Under this model, there are lots of singular votes that by themselves do not say much except that they are still creating alternatives (and at the same time are potentially throwaway). Whom I would put under scrutiny are actually the people who made the second votes, thus making the bandwagons roll (Lommy and Hui, with the added value that Hui was acting clearly with the bonus to prevent a wagon against himself - the question of course being that he could have equally well voted for Morsul or Pitch, if it was just about that). Either of them could have acted as Wolves protecting one of Morsul or Pitch (who had votes from before) by supporting bandwagons for somebody else.
(Bolding my emphasis)

And my argument is, a single vote a bandwagon does not make, but a single vote has the same potential to start a bandwagon. What I mean is with Lottie's vote yesterday:

Okay, it's getting towards the deadline, and I'm still struggling a bit with this one. I would honestly prefer to vote Morsul or Pitch, but I don't know who all is still around to vote, so I'm probably going to go with one of the two candidates who've received multiple votes, at least in part to make sure it's less likely a sudden bandwagon on Boro's vote leaves me all alone in the Dead Thread ().

My first reaction is why is Lottie nervous about acquiring a single vote (mine)? But she's right and it's a good point to consider when looking at votes. At that time Huey and Greenie had 2, with 3 others (not including Lottie) left to vote my vote had the same potential to start a bandwagon, as did anyone else who made the first vote for someone else.

If you want to call my vote a throwaway, I can see that being the case for people who don't know my alignment. I still would beg to disagree. It was Lottie's and Pitch's vote that made mine a "throwaway." I was pretty clear throughout the day I was more worried about Lottie and voted that way. Lottie herself admitted there was the possibility that she could be bandwagon lynched. So, in my opinion, to call my vote a "throwaway" is inaccurate, it's only a throwaway because Lottie's, Pitch's votes, plus sally's and Soriman not voting made it a throwaway.

Now I did make a mistake in not recognizing Legate's comments on Pitch's vote:

Interestingly enough, purely based on vibe when looking at the list of votes, Pitch's vote strikes me as rather sinister because he had his opinions, then voted for Hui. And that was at the point when Greenie was leading, and Soriman was left to vote (with it not being sure whether he will). So Pitch's vote was potentially throwaway (if e.g. again the scenario that Hui was a Wolf was true - he would no longer endanger a packmate and at the same time distance himself from him) and at the same time not getting his "hands dirty" in lynching an innocent.

I chalked this up to perhaps being a language barrier difference, because I agreed with your overall conclusion that Pitch's vote was a throwaway and looks like "keeping record clean" when Greenie is revealed innocent. I didn't register Legate categorizing Pitch's vote as sinister until Huey brought it up in his post #134.

It may very well be a language barrier thing, but if anything Lottie's vote is the sinister one and Pitch's is the "safe throwaway." What I mean is this:

I don't know Pitch's alignment and I don't know Huey's alignment, we all know Greenie is innocent. If Pitch is a wolf in this scenario, he would know even casting a 3rd vote for Huey the innocent-Greenie would still be lynched, thus it's safe and "keeps his record clean."

That is the case, if I go with the assumption Pitch is a wolf. The problem with just going by that assumption is I don't know Pitch's alignment, and I don't know Huey's alignment. I do now know Greenie's alignment, therefor of the voters who brought Greenie and Huey to 3, the more suspicious vote is Lottie's being the vote that lynched a known innocent.

I'd be even wary of classifying Lottie's vote as "sinister" because that would suggest I know Lottie's a wolf and thus was motivated to get Greenie lynched. But currently as far as I know, Pitch is an unknown alignment, and Huey is an unknown alignment, so I don't know how his vote for someone's alignment I do not know should be classified as evil.

Ok, will read and catch up on the posts I missed.

[Morsul the Dark]

Ok, this will probably bite me if it’s wrong, I feel Lottie is a highly frustrated Ordo based on her last post. And I’ve been there. And since I can’t guarantee I’ll be back before DL

++Sally

Not only is she my second in line suspect if she is a wolf and I help her bandwagon an Ordo that won’t do anyone any good.

Lottie I really hope your an Ordo. Otherwise you get an Oscar

Xed Boro

[satansaloser2005]

Well I didn't expect that. Fair. I mean, wrong, but fair.

I can't do much else toDay. I need to vote.

++Lottie

[Loslote]

Actually, I have a question for Pitch. At what point yesterDay did you realize that the first one of the two of us to vote would probably decide the lynch? Was it before or after I voted? You seemed like you didn't realize it until Sally no-voted, but I realized after Boro's vote. Were you really not aware that you had the power to decide who went to the Dead Thread? If you felt that Greenie was more trustworthy than Huin, knowing that the first vote wins in case of a tie, why didn't you vote earlier? Why did you wait and let me make the choice, then bemoan your lack of power after the fact?

[Pitchwife]

Please, just look at one (1) other person toDay. The village doesn’t benefit from wasting the whole day suspecting the same (innocent, believe it or not) person.
Duly noted.

I'm just going through Formy's posts and loved this so much I had to rep him for it:

That doesn't mean that someone can't luck into a correct answer, but WW is an ever-escalating game of "normally I zig, so I need to zag" and "XXXX seems suspicious, but they always seem suspicious, but it's suspicious that I usually end up not thinking they're suspicious, and it's suspicious that they're aren't suspicious, and even more suspicious that they're a little bit suspicious rather than exact enough suspicious."

To which I'd add "X doesn't suspect me, does that mean they're an innocent who has a good read on me or a wolf trying to buddy up to me? I don't really suspect them either, does that mean I should? If I don't suspect them, is it just because they don't suspect me? But I'm actually innocent, so if they don't suspect me that's OK, isn't it?" - Boro and sally, this is about you.

Anyway. Reason I went through Form's posts is this:
The wolves have to aim for the Seer, they can't afford not to. So either they saw something Seer-ish in Form, or they thought he'd dreamt of one of them. He voted for sally out of quite a few 'lurker' options he was thinking about, so even if killing him points toward a sally-wolf, the pack may have thought that getting potential Form-Seer out of the way early on was worth the risk.
And I don't see it. I think he made it pretty clear that he was channeling Nogrod and hunting submarines. He singled out Kath, sally and Sori a 'Quiet' (#78), gave Kath a pass as 'not bad for Kath' and Sori for being a newbie, and sally was left. Seriously, if I were a wolf in sally's place I don't know that I would have panicked enough to think him the Seer and kill him, or if I did I hope my packmates would have talked me out of it.

So I think this is much more likely to be a no-trace kill (the second-best thing if you can't kill the Seer, and if you can use it to frame an innocent, so much the better.)

But then again, this also means there was nobody else the wolves thought more likely to be the Seer (as I don't remember who and am too lazy to check said before me). This could speak for Hui's innocence (as I think Morsul noted). But if the wolves (or most of them) felt safe yesterDay we should look at those who didn't get any votes:
Boro
Kath
Legate
Lommy
Soriman
Which is half the remaining village, and I think it's highly likely there's at least one wolf among them.

[Boromir88]

Well, yes. Several people have said nothing all Day except that I seem suspicious. I am getting tired of that - look at other options! My vote stands out because it was the deciding one.

This is true. I feel like I've made some good points about Legate and so far I think only Legate himself and Huey have responded to it.

I'm wary if I continue then I'll just be tunnel visioned on Legate and thus my day is stuck on 1 person. If I had to vote right this moment it would be for Legate, and I would definitely love to hear what other people think about this? (Morsul? Sally? If you're able to come back at some point in the day...Lottie? Pitch? Kath? Soriman - where are you?)

[Kath]

Day 2 then:

Boro
If they were going with the "no trail kill" and thus that's why Form was targeted that doesn't make much sense. Form was pretty wishy-washy in who he suspected, but he did leave a trail. If they were going "no trail" I would think sally or Soriman would have been the choice, because Form certainly did list people so he did leave a trail.
Yes, but some of the people on said list were sally and Soriman because he was talking about the lurkers, so I'm not quite sure what you're meaning here. Thinks Pitch's vote for Hui was throwaway given sally no-voted and Soriman was unlikely to get a vote in so Greenie was going to be lynched. I actually think voting Greenie 'knowing' she was going to be lynched would have been more throw away. Seems to 'clear' sally based on gut feeling about her posts. Mentions Lottie is being more aggressive toDay but doesn't seem clear on whether that's good or bad. Disagrees with Legate's voting analysis focus, but doesn't mention who then from the votes he thinks suspicion should point towards. Proposes a Legate/Hui pack. My earlier post about Hui/Legate was kind of along similar lines, but because it seems so obvious that Hui is kind of following after Legate's lead, I think it feels less likely that they would be in kahoots.

Huinesoron - spent some time questioning Pitch as they didn't feel that Pitch's previous statements on Greenie then matched his later comments. I can sort of see what they mean given the quotes they've used. Notes that Boro has cheerfully disregarded Legate's additional focus on Pitch and Boro when he discussed Legate's 'narrow' analysis of the voting. That is a good point. Suspects Pitch for his vote (I disagree) and sally due to Form's death (I agree).

Legate - focused on the voting and notes that Lommy and Hui were the 'pushers' of the two wagons, Pitch's vote was throwaway (I disagree as mentioned elsewhere) and Boro who avoided the wagons. Then further develops suspicion of Boro for misrepresenting his voting analysis (as pointed out also by Hui).

Lommy - proposes a Lottie/sally/Hui pack because she feels Lottie rather let sally off the hook and then the way she spoke about Hui in Day 1. I think the attitude toward sally more comes from RL rather than in-game, so I'm not sure I agree with this. Analyses Form and ends up with suspicion of sally.

Loslote - similar sally question post. Explains her vote for Greenie - seems to make sense to me. Greenie and Hui were garnering the most suspicion and possible votes at the time. She feels that Morsul's list post seems to have unfounded suspicions of some people, while seeming to give others an unexplained pass. I do agree that the decisions aren't clearly explained, and I think that's what led to a lot of the debate yesterDay about Morsul as it seemed as though they were flipping between finding particularly Hui innocent one moment and guilty the next without it being very clear why.

Morsul - debating the sally question in much the same way as I did. I'm still of the Occam's razor school of thought on that one. Wondering why Lottie chose to vote between Greenie/Hui rather than going with her prior suspicions, and suggests it was for self preservation. I'm not quite following the logic there? I don't think anyone else had suggested they'd vote Lottie at the time. List post is interesting in that almost each person they comment on gets the treatment of suspicious but not a wolf which doesn't really follow. Not quite sure what they're saying about Lommy's vote in post #131?

Pitch - questions Lottie's vote and suggests she was trying to save Hui. I'm not quite sure where he was going within the post (#142) as apart from himself going from not-vote to possible-vote, I thought Lottie's earlier explanation for her vote was fairly clear.

Sally - if Lottie is going to go after Morsul for wishy-washy lists, then I'll expect the same intensity towards sally's in post #121. Beyond saying Boro and Pitch seem innocent, everyone else gets the 'could be ... but maybe' treatment. Thinks Pitch makes good points about Lottie and would vote for her. She'd earlier mentioned that Lottie was quite aggressive, maybe more so than she'd be as an ordo, so this is consistent at least.

Soriman - have they posted? If so, I didn't note anything as I read through.

[Huinesoron]

Back but on my phone, which doesn't make seeing the bigger picture easy, but I'll try.

Pitch has replied to my questions, and their answers make me feel somewhat better. Their later posts don't - one basically accuses Lottie of changing opinion over Day 1, which, well yeah, while the other is repeating my point to Boro and trying to turn it into an attack on me. Last minute add-on: neither does their repeating Lommy's "Seers don't look random" argument against suspecting Sally.

Boro has also replied, and does not make me feel better. One half is 'I'm ignoring your accusation' (over 2 paragraphs) and the other is 'I know Legate talked about other people but I don't think it counts'. His later post ends by claiming Legate is suspicious for calling a vote 'sinister', which, it's TiG. Sometimes things look evil. I don't know if it's the phone, the hour, or BoroWolf, but the rest of his case just feels like trying to drown us in names.

Lottie hasn't done anything which looks wolfy; as far as I can tell the arguments are "they just Feel Bad", and "they changed their mind on Day 1". Also a touch of "they saved hS", which is nice, but I don't see not finding me evil as necessarily a wolfish tell.

Morsul is a lot more grounded now the action's not on them. That may not be a good thing - I think I speculated "frustrated wolf" yesterDay, which would obviously not be true toDay - but overall they look better.

Sally is going quite hard at Lottie based on feel (and has now voted accordingly) , and saying Pitch is good based on feel. I guess that's just how they operate? Not really good or bad, but convenient if a wolf. As is the curious lack of discussion about the whole "Did Wolf!Sally kill Form?" question.

Kath is here and looks reasonable. I mean, I know that Morsul and Greenie were sitting on my suspicions list all Day 1 (along with Lommy for a while), with Greenie only slipping off momentarily, but I don't know how well it came over in my posts, so.

Legate is... yeah, people are right that I've agreed with them a few times. I think we think and post in similar ways. I haven't read anything that says wolf, but their very reasonableness means I'm still wary.

Lommy in #136 makes a weird-sounding claim that WolfSally wouldn't have thought Form was a Seer because the vote and justification 'didn't seem like Seerish suspicion'. Which, a) a Seer who dreamed a wolf doesn't suspect, but more importantly b) a Seer who thought they could kill their dreamed wolf by making it look random would surely do that rather than going "I SEE that Sally is a wolf, do you SEE what I mean".

Soriman is absent. :( I'd really like to see what they have to say.

At this point I find Boro most suspicious in isolation, but either Pitch or (to a lesser extent) Lommy in conjunction with a wolf Sally.

(xed with Kath)

hS

[Kath]

My current suspicions definitely start with sallybecause of the Night kill and I'm pretty sure that's where my vote is going toDay.

Boro would be on the list what with the oddness over the way he interpreted Legate's voting analysis, but with that said I think there's something strange with the Legate/Hui connection as well. I think I'd lean towards a Hui-wolf more than a Legate one because of the direction of the connection.

Lottie's been mentioned a lot toDay. I'm getting more frustrated ordo than forcing-a-focus wolf and I think she explained her vote clearly enough, so she wouldn't be on my concerns list at the moment.

[Pitchwife]

Actually, I have a question for Pitch. At what point yesterDay did you realize that the first one of the two of us to vote would probably decide the lynch? Was it before or after I voted? You seemed like you didn't realize it until Sally no-voted, but I realized after Boro's vote. Were you really not aware that you had the power to decide who went to the Dead Thread? If you felt that Greenie was more trustworthy than Huin, knowing that the first vote wins in case of a tie, why didn't you vote earlier? Why did you wait and let me make the choice, then bemoan your lack of power after the fact?


If it's between Hui and Greenie, I'd actually (Legate 180 incoming) rather go for Hui just now. Anybody else?
That was 4 minutes after your vote. Does that answer you? Does my exasperation when sally no-voted?

DL is 1am my time, I should have been in bed at least an hour before, I had no suspicions I felt were strong enough to warrant a vote (those against yourself and Kath were rather flimsy), so I hung around hoping for something more substantial to turn up... too long.

[Kath]

Voting time for me. Given my feeling that the wolves have to gun for the Seer with every Night kill, and that therefore they were working on a Form-Seer hypothesis, my vote goes to:

++sally

[Morsul the Dark]

Morsul - Lommy's vote in post #131?



My point was they decried bandwagons then *possibly* jumped on one

[Soriman the Whide]

Appologies for my scarce posts, I should have more time for this game in the coming days.



Soriman- newbie pass I feel a new wolf would be more panicky?


Of course, everyone can trust me! The meta gaming really gives me a free pass :).



Under this model, there are lots of singular votes that by themselves do not say much except that they are still creating alternatives (and at the same time are potentially throwaway). Whom I would put under scrutiny are actually the people who made the second votes, thus making the bandwagons roll (Lommy and Hui, with the added value that Hui was acting clearly with the bonus to prevent a wagon against himself - the question of course being that he could have equally well voted for Morsul or Pitch, if it was just about that). Either of them could have acted as Wolves protecting one of Morsul or Pitch (who had votes from before) by supporting bandwagons for somebody else.



I can follow this line of thinking and it does make sense to me, Huin does seem suspicious to me but I do not know if this is just his aggressive playstyle, I feel most people would aggressivley defend their life if they can but Huin also appears (at least to me) to favour shifting blame to others.



This though is just very narrow and focused on only 2 people, Lommy and Huey (those who made the 2nd vote for either Greenie/Huey). Why do you ignore the 1st votes for Greenie or Huey? I'm not buying the "1st votes for someone aren't suspicious because it's still creating an alternative and thus the 2nd votes are more suspicious because those votes got a potential bandwagon going."



Wouldn't it be likely the wolves will follow the first votes on day one? After the first votes wovles can more safely vote without having to hold their vote to save a fellow wolf. If someone voted with a bandwagon there is still safety in the large group.

I can't be certain of anything but I hope Huin is on our side as he seems like a powerful ally.


That said I'm just going to lock in my vote for ++Lottie as Huins most likely packmate (if he is one of them) in my mind.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Back, I had dinner and caught up and now I have time to be around...

I cannot help but think something is happening in the Pitch-Lottie interaction. The whole back-and-forth is a horrible lock-up that makes me think one of them is a Wolf - and given the options that yesterDay's voting pattern offers, there are other reasons that might support it. My money would be on Pitch also because his vote was technically more throwaway, more traceless. Well I spoke about all the options in my post early in the Day. Another, even though perhaps farfetched possibility is that all this debate is some strange Wolf-on-Wolf (we can go back to the too-good-to-be-true scenario where the two of them and Hui are all Wolves). But that is already thinking very far.


Actually all the way through yesterDay Hui seems to be sort of following Legate's lead.
This is an interesting remark from Kath and I did not realise it fully at first, but in retrospect, it is true - and I am not sure what to make of it. Hui is certainly no beginner player who would need to latch onto and just copypaste somebody else's opinion. But it seems to me we have also converged at multiple times, so maybe we just think in a similar manner.

If there was a LottieWolf, maybe. I am not a wolf. You will get no information from lynching me, and the people who are spending the whole Day barking up this tree are giving the wolves perfect cover in which to operate. Please, just look at one (1) other person toDay. The village doesn’t benefit from wasting the whole day suspecting the same (innocent, believe it or not) person.
This came a bit out of the blue, or, not entirely, there has been suspicion about Lottie, but I would certainly not say that people have not been looking at anybody else. So funnily enough, while so far the way Lottie posted has been more or less on the neutral level for me, I would say this was the first thing that stood out notably. That being said, I do think there are others than Lottie whose posting or actions would seem much more likely wolfy to me than hers.

It's also true that you considered Morsul being the first to vote for Huey, but to me, you very clearly wanted to put the attention to those who cast the 2nd votes (Huey and Lommy)

(...)
And my argument is, a single vote a bandwagon does not make, but a single vote has the same potential to start a bandwagon.
But you can say that about any vote, obviously. If I understand you correctly, and if you are genuine about this, then it seems to me we just differ in the manner of rhetorics. I simply believe that the second votes, especially in this small number, were more decisive than singular first votes. It's like if I said "billionnaires are rich" and then you disputed me by saying that millionnaires are also rich. I am not disputing that they are.

I chalked this up to perhaps being a language barrier difference, because I agreed with your overall conclusion that Pitch's vote was a throwaway and looks like "keeping record clean" when Greenie is revealed innocent. I didn't register Legate categorizing Pitch's vote as sinister until Huey brought it up in his post #134.

It may very well be a language barrier thing, but if anything Lottie's vote is the sinister one and Pitch's is the "safe throwaway."
You can call it whichever way you want. Both were possibly incriminating there. Pitch's was, let's call it more conveniently placed, and it both followed a switch from his older suspects to voting somebody who was likely not going to get lynched and at the same time not getting his hands dirty by lynching an innocent. Bonus value if Hui is a Wolf and Pitch thus cast a Wolf-on-Wolf vote in a safe space. That was the gist of what I was saying about him.

EDIT: x-ed from the start of the page

[Huinesoron]

Votes so far

Morsul > Sally
Sally > Lottie
Kath > Sally [2]
Soriman > Lottie [2]

I think lynching a WolfSally would shed a lot of light, but I also think it would be an easy lynch for the wolves to jump on board because of the "SeerForm" thing. Also, per my last, I have no read on Sally as wolfish except for "SeerForm" logic.

Interrupting myself because Soriman is here and... voting for Lottie with no reasoning other than them being my most likely packmate (but not voting me). Um... what?

But it's nearly 10pm and I'm too tired to stay up and see more. :-/ I think Lottie is likely innocent, and Sally is a coin-toss, so I'm going to put in a vote for my 'most likely wolf' per my last post:

++BOROMIR88

hS

[Morsul the Dark]

Votes so far

Interrupting myself because Soriman is here and... voting for Lottie with no reasoning other than them being my most likely packmate (but not voting me). Um... what?


I’d like to second this opinion.

[Loslote]

This came a bit out of the blue, or, not entirely, there has been suspicion about Lottie, but I would certainly not say that people have not been looking at anybody else. So funnily enough, while so far the way Lottie posted has been more or less on the neutral level for me, I would say this was the first thing that stood out notably. That being said, I do think there are others than Lottie whose posting or actions would seem much more likely wolfy to me than hers.

That was a moment of frustration - I was seeing Morsul and Sally just focus on me and not really look at anyone else, and I wanted to see them talk more about other people. Just focusing on me all Day doesn't leave a trail at all connecting them to other people, including possible packmates, and I was feeling a bit attacked in the moment. I stepped away and calmed down, thankfully!

I have to run a couple of errands, but I will be back an hour before the deadline. My top suspicions now are Sally, for what feels like an unnecessarily narrow focus on me leading to her not tying herself in any way to potential packmates, and Pitch, for holding his vote yesterDay long enough to let me make the decision, because if both were innocent and he knew it, that way he wouldn't dirty his hands. I get weird vibes from Lommy, Boro, and Legate, but I haven't had time to parse through that and decide what it is that gives me the bad vibe from any of them, and I think I'm just overall confused about how I feel about them rather than suspicious, if that makes sense. Hopefully I will be able to get a clearer sense when I get back - if not, I'll spend some time looking through all three toNight.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That said I'm just going to lock in my vote for ++Lottie as Huins most likely packmate (if he is one of them) in my mind.

Well this escalated quickly. I'm happy that you are here and posting. But is this just based on the premise that Hui is a Wolf??? Would not in such a case it make sense to vote for him - not to speak that what if the premise itself was false? :confused:

EDIT: x-ed after my last

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Otherwise... I would personally prefer to vote, well, after what happened a moment ago I'd feel like voting for Soriman on impulse, but a) I would like to hear some clarification and b) I do not feel like casting a vote based on effectively the only post he's made.

But otherwise my top options would include Pitch and Boro with his strange analysis, and I think lynching Hui would also clarify several things, even though I started feeling better about him during the course of toDay. Of those who have votes I am not comfortable to cast my vote for Lottie and with lynching sally there are just so many "what ifs" - the whole Form question of frames or double-frames or whatever.

I will think on this; I am not going to sleep yet at this very moment.

[Boromir88]

Day 2 then:

Boro

Yes, but some of the people on said list were sally and Soriman because he was talking about the lurkers, so I'm not quite sure what you're meaning here.

Form had engaged with several people Day 1...so my point is someone's vote isn't the only trail they leave. Form throughout the day responded/interacted to comments made by myself, Lottie, Lommy, Huey, Kath and voted for sally. Sally and Soriman had no vote trail, but also I don't recall them interacting with anyone.


Boro has also replied, and does not make me feel better. One half is 'I'm ignoring your accusation' (over 2 paragraphs) and the other is 'I know Legate talked about other people but I don't think it counts'. His later post ends by claiming Legate is suspicious for calling a vote 'sinister', which, it's TiG. Sometimes things look evil. I don't know if it's the phone, the hour, or BoroWolf, but the rest of his case just feels like trying to drown us in names.


Now see this is a mis-representation. The 1st time you made the accusation I took it as you were probing for a response. You categorize my reply as "I'm ignoring your accusation" but you yourself are ignoring my stated reasons:

I think I do detect an attempted distraction. So, sorry Huey, won't engage in a conversation that looks like you're trying to derail and argue with me about something I said I was going to ignore.

I said I don't want to be pulled into a debate about something that has no bearing on what the focus on today should be; who I'm suspicious of and lynching a wolf. You returning to this and categorizing as I'm just ignoring your accusation is mis-representing my post. *ping*

As to the 2nd reason of me supposedly "mis-representing" Legate's vote analysis. Can someone please explain what is mysteriously "odd" about it and how it's mis-representing it? (Someone other than Huey or Legate, because I don't trust either of them at the moment). Kath, you have just called it odd? How so because quite frankly I'm confused.

Look...6 people voted for either Greenie or Huey.

Legate's analysis was, explain away the first 2 people (himself and Morsul) under the premise that "the 1st votes for someone aren't the starters of a bandwagon, they are bringing up other alternatives." Then he narrows in and directs the "scrutiny" to those who made the 2nd vote (Lommy and Huey); under the premise that the 2nd vote is the one that actually starts the bandwagon. Again, this makes the 2nd time Legate has used "Huey + someone else" to focus the "scrutiny" on.

Day 1 it was Huey and Greenie:

I am not entirely sure how Boro's comment constitutes as "launching a Day 1s are pointless-debate".

Now Hui seems to be poking around inquisitively overall, which is an activity that by itself can serve both good and evil purposes, so if this is just a part of that, whatever; but the formulation (the not-outright-accusing, yet suggestive "I find it a little suspicious", while putting words into Boro's mouth) does not seem right to me. Even stranger is that Greenie basically repeats the same, which just gives me the vibe of "quoting without checking the source", i.e. having seen Hui slightly suspect Boro and just latch on to that. That would be a very good move for a Wolf to pull.

Overall it's just weird because I don't read it as Boro "launching" any "debate" on "Day 1 pointlessness" in the first place.

Clarifications, anyone?

Day 2 is Huey and Lommy:

Under this model, there are lots of singular votes that by themselves do not say much except that they are still creating alternatives (and at the same time are potentially throwaway). Whom I would put under scrutiny are actually the people who made the second votes, thus making the bandwagons roll (Lommy and Hui, with the added value that Hui was acting clearly with the bonus to prevent a wagon against himself - the question of course being that he could have equally well voted for Morsul or Pitch, if it was just about that). Either of them could have acted as Wolves protecting one of Morsul or Pitch (who had votes from before) by supporting bandwagons for somebody else.

If this isn't trying to narrow in a small number of suspect, I really don't know what is. Twice in 2 days, but I'm the "mysteriously" odd one for pointing it out. :rolleyes:

Edit: Crossed with everyone after Morsul's #166

[Morsul the Dark]

Of course, everyone can trust me! The meta gaming really gives me a free pass :).


That’s not eyebrow raising at all.

I hate voting early this post sends Every bad vibe

[Boromir88]

Legate's response does give me a slight bit of caution and glad I decided to step back. I do find his analysis still suspicious, but these are good points to my belaboring the point throughout the day:

But you can say that about any vote, obviously. If I understand you correctly, and if you are genuine about this, then it seems to me we just differ in the manner of rhetorics. I simply believe that the second votes, especially in this small number, were more decisive than singular first votes. It's like if I said "billionnaires are rich" and then you disputed me by saying that millionnaires are also rich. I am not disputing that they are.


You can call it whichever way you want. Both were possibly incriminating there. Pitch's was, let's call it more conveniently placed, and it both followed a switch from his older suspects to voting somebody who was likely not going to get lynched and at the same time not getting his hands dirty by lynching an innocent. Bonus value if Hui is a Wolf and Pitch thus cast a Wolf-on-Wolf vote in a safe space. That was the gist of what I was saying about him.


Both fair. Pitch's and Lottie's votes are incriminating and it could be a difference in the manner of how we interpret and judge the placement of when people vote.

Huey is shooting up red flags and it's not because he's voted or suspects me at all. It's this, which I definitely classify as "sinister."


At this point I find Boro most suspicious in isolation, but either Pitch or (to a lesser extent) Lommy in conjunction with a wolf Sally.


So you're most suspicious of me and cast suspicion my way, and state that Pitch and Lommy are also less suspicious, but out of the 4 of us you called sally a wolf. If you truly think sally is a wolf...why not vote for sally? So are you saying Pitch and Lommy are suspicious if sally turns out to be a wolf?

Then in your post that you voted for me, again you throw up "wolfSally"

I think lynching a WolfSally would shed a lot of light, but I also think it would be an easy lynch for the wolves to jump on board because of the "SeerForm" thing. Also, per my last, I have no read on Sally as wolfish except for "SeerForm" logic.

If you think lynching wolfSally would shed more light on things...why in the blazes did you vote for me? I get if I look suspicious, fare enough, but this is VERY RED FLAG. "Lynching wolfSally might shed some more light on things, but I'm just going to vote for someone else anyway."

[Pitchwife]

So, looking at yesterDay's non-votees. This is going to be impressionistic as I'm getting tired.
Boro - want to trust him and second-guessing myself. Ilike his thought-processes and to some part the conclusions he arrives at, esp. about a Legate/Hui connection (the part about "Hui + X").
Kath - I'm a bit worried by her single-minded conviction that Form's death must point to sally's guilt, which I'd expect from a wolf whose pack went for a no trace kill with the benefit of framing sally. The rest of her posts seem very reasonable and balanced.
Legate - is a slippery fish, also a furry fish? (would that be seal, or an otter?) Among the five non-votees I'm least inclined to trust him ATM. It doesn't help that he keeps painting me black. Also just saw this:
I think lynching Hui would also clarify several things, even though I started feeling better about him during the course of toDay
What the frell is this? If you're feeling better about someone you don't consider lynching them just to clarify things!

Lommy - found her suspicious early yesterDay, felt better about her later, haven't examined her enough to form a solid opinion since


If it's between Lottie and sally I'll be in a sore place. I do get the frustrated innocent ring from Lottie, and I don't really get the case against sally.

[Huinesoron]

If you think lynching wolfSally would shed more light on things...why in the blazes did you vote for me? I get if I look suspicious, fare enough, but this is VERY RED FLAG. "Lynching wolfSally might shed some more light on things, but I'm just going to vote for someone else anyway."

Blaarg, this is why I couldn't sleep, I knew someone would pick a turn of phrase and try to make make me a Definite Wolf over it... since it was apparently not obvious, by "wolf!Sally" I meant that IF Sally is a wolf, lynching them would be best because it would provide information on Pitch and Lommy (as stated, it would look bad for them IF Sally is a wolf). But I have NOT read anything which makes Sally feel like a wolf to me, and so I think it's a coin toss: WolfSally or InnocentSally.

Since I'm pretty sure you are a wolf, I'd rather lynch you than gamble on Sally.

hS (is still trying to sleep)

Xed with Pitch

[Pitchwife]

think lynching Hui would also clarify several things, even though I started feeling better about him during the course of toDay
What the frell is this? If you're feeling better about someone you don't consider lynching them just to clarify things!
Unless, I might add, you don't care either way who gets lynched as long as it's not one of your pack.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

What the frell is this? If you're feeling better about someone you don't consider lynching them just to clarify things!
"Better", but not exonerating. I am still considering him suspicious enough to merit a vote otherwise.

[Thinlómien]

So toDay Huin/Legate/Boro is a thing? I can't quite put my finger on it, but the blaming others for tunnel vision while tunnel visioning themselves circle is certainly eye catching. Something about it seems fishy to me. Sorry, that's not very analytical I know but something's off there. I'm also tempted to give them all a pass for toDay - which I probably shouldn't - because all their long posts, especially Boro and Legate's, are giving me headache. They're getting pretty advanced, and I don't have the patience right now (it's 0.30 and the last workday of the week and I'm feeling it) to untangle it. But I'm saying once again there's something furry going on here.

I feel better about both Morsul and Lottie. They're giving me vibes of frustrated ordos trying to work things out.

I'm a little frustrated about Sally (sorry kidney muffin, I know you must be frustrated too) and her lack of participation. Does she seem guilty to me? No, not really, I don't think it very likely she'd kill Form as a wolf, she's not that paranoid usually. Does she seem innocent to me? No, because she hasn't said anything that would make me trust her either. Should we lynch her? Who knows?? It's a shot in the dark, but I would prefer it to lynching someone I consider innocent. Should we give her a pass until Day3 just because she's been busy? That doesn't sound fair either.

Generally re: the seer/ wolf kill speculation. I'm gonna criticise myself here a little too (see my formalysis) but I don't understand why people are so hell bent in always thinking the wolves would kill someone who looks like a seer because they suspected them. I mean statistically seers are much more likely to dream of innocents. The wolves know who are innocent. Ergo, wouldn't they be on the lookout for someone seerishly talking about someone innocent as innocent, not just for someone seerishly talking about a wolf as suspicious?

I feel considerably less good about Kath toDay than yesterDay. I mean she comes, posts bulky analyses that are mostly recap, makes again a very easy vote (yesterDay Morsul who's a guaranteed suspicion grabber on day1 regardless of his role, toDay Sally whom Form's death mildly implicates and who's not really around to defend herself).

Lommy in #136 makes a weird-sounding claim that WolfSally wouldn't have thought Form was a Seer because the vote and justification 'didn't seem like Seerish suspicion'. Which, a) a Seer who dreamed a wolf doesn't suspect, but more importantly b) a Seer who thought they could kill their dreamed wolf by making it look random would surely do that rather than going "I SEE that Sally is a wolf, do you SEE what I mean".Okay fair point, I didn't think of it that way! I thought Form's phrasing didn't look seerish and ergo wolf!Sally wouldn't likely have been worried about it, but it's true that in the seer's case especially actions mean more than words, and a seer!Form who had dreamed of wolf!Sally would have certainly taken the opportunity to lynch her if possible. Maybe I'm a bit slow but I didn't think of it from that angle :o (maybe because I know Form wasn't the seer)

Soriman's vote = ????????????

This is an interesting remark from Kath and I did not realise it fully at first, but in retrospect, it is true - and I am not sure what to make of it. Hui is certainly no beginner player who would need to latch onto and just copypaste somebody else's opinion. But it seems to me we have also converged at multiple times, so maybe we just think in a similar manner.Or you're both wolves and working as a united front in order to terminate the village faster? :Merisu:


edit: xed with Pitch and Legate

[Boromir88]

Blaarg, this is why I couldn't sleep, I knew someone would pick a turn of phrase and try to make make me a Definite Wolf over it... since it was apparently not obvious, by "wolf!Sally" I meant that IF Sally is a wolf, lynching them would be best because it would provide information on Pitch and Lommy (as stated, it would look bad for them IF Sally is a wolf). But I have NOT read anything which makes Sally feel like a wolf to me, and so I think it's a coin toss: WolfSally or InnocentSally.

Since I'm pretty sure you are a wolf, I'd rather lynch you than gamble on Sally.

hS (is still trying to sleep)

Xed with Pitch


Is it a turn of a phrase or a slip to protect yourself if I am lynched and revealed to everyone that I am innocent?

Because you have listed the people you are suspicious of (Myself, Lommy, Pitch, and sally) and only referred to sally as a wolf. Now if you are innocent and truly voting for me, being the most suspicious looking person to you, fair enough. But you didn't call me a wolf in your post when you voted for me. You said in your vote post for me that I was "most likely a wolf," while directly referring to sally as a wolf.

But I've said my bit on this, made my point now and won't continue hammering on about it.

++Huey

[Galadriel55]

Morsul --> Sally
Sally --> Lottie
Kath --> Sally (2)
Soriman --> Lottie (2)
Hui --> Boro
Boro --> Hui


DL in 1 hour. Dead vote comes in at deadline.

[Thinlómien]

As I said, I would prefer the whole Legate/Hui/Boro kettle of fish for toMorrow because I'm not sure what to think about it. I feel considerably less certain of Legate and Boro's innocence than yesterDay - both of them have been a little shady toDay - but I don't think I have any actual arguments against them. Huin I still find suspicious, but Form's death makes him look a little better. If I had to pick one of them to lynch toDay I would probably prefer Huin over Legate, and Legate over Boro. But I would still like to unpack this with a fresher brain.

Like I said, Lottie and Morsul look better to me now. Not a huge fan of the idea of lynching either of them toDay.

Sally? I'm okay with that, but I'm not sure it's the smartest move. I feel like this whole Sally thing has been blown a little out of proportion while she's not here to defend herself, which is a little suspicious in itself.

I would feel the most comfortable voting Kath (see my previous post) or Pitchwife, whose argumentation keeps going in circles I cannot understand and that seem concoluted and wolvish to me.

But if I had to pick from the current vote candidates, I'd probably go for Sally. I have less misgivings about it than about lynching Boro or Lottie.

Oh yes and Soriman. Really not sure what to make of that. His argumentation is bizarre and he's on par with Sally when it comes to how much content he's posted. Not very impressed by his vote, but not sure it merits being called suspicious. It's mostly odd.


edit: xed with Gal and Boro

[Thinlómien]

WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THIS HUIN / BORO / LEGATE BOVINE EXCREMENT????

Now you're making me consider it toDay. I have a headache.

I really don't know which one of you is the wolf / wolves, but if you're all three innocent I'm gonna eat my mousepad.*


*...or with my recent ww track record, maybe not. :p But you get the sentiment.

[Thinlómien]

Btw currently contemplating the idea of a Boro / Huin / Legate pack and laughing my head off. I can't say if they'd be brilliant or really terrible at their job. But I'm pretty sure it would play out almost exactly like this. They'd probably have planned their wolf-on-wolf drama beforehand at Night.

[Pitchwife]

I think lynching a WolfSally would shed a lot of light, but I also think it would be an easy lynch for the wolves to jump on board because of the "SeerForm" thing. Also, per my last, I have no read on Sally as wolfish except for "SeerForm" logic.
Much as I dislike the idea of lynching people for no better reason than to 'shed light on things', I think I get what Hui is saying here, and I agree with the last sentence. (so should Boro by the way!)

[Thinlómien]

So, who hasn't voted?

Legate, Pitch, Lottie and myself?

I would still prefer Kath or Pitch, but especially the latter seems to be off the table for toDay...


edit: xed with Pitch

[Loslote]

I'm here, and I will be until the deadline! I could go for either Sally or Pitch, I have vaguely good feelings about Kath so I wouldn't want to vote for her. I don't want to go for Boro or Huin toDay, either, I'm too confused about them to in good conscience vote for them.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I got distracted for a bit but now I am back...

I am not sure what to think about Boro suddenly being so friendly, plus now I see Boro voted Hui and Hui voted Boro, as if to challenge me to vote for the other. Well, I am probably more inclined to vote Boro, also because of the conciliatory tone of his #176.

Need to make sense of things, slightly catching up stuff here. Will try to make sense of stuff soon, hopefully not crossposted with too many again.

[Boromir88]

WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THIS HUIN / BORO / LEGATE BOVINE EXCREMENT????


The only thing I'm certain of toDay, is I will gladly offer my service to my Lord and my loyal companions. If that service requires my life so I can join my fallen brethren, Form and Greenie, then so be it.

I hope I have not erred with my stubbornness by actually aiding the 3 betrayers among us. Some of my initial conclusions yesterday may have been misplaced, but I don't think I've erred today. If I have then may death reveal my true heart.

Edit: crossed with Lottie and Legate

[Pitchwife]

Btw currently contemplating the idea of a Boro / Huin / Legate pack and laughing my head off. I can't say if they'd be brilliant or really terrible at their job. But I'm pretty sure it would play out almost exactly like this. They'd probably have planned their wolf-on-wolf drama beforehand at Night.
This just made me laugh out loud so hard, and I'm still laughing. :D Bad thing is, I can totally see it, and honestly, right now I'd probably feel more confident voting any of them than I'd feel about voting anybody else (possibly excepting Kath). Order of preference being Legate > Hui > Boro.

[Morsul the Dark]

I'm here, and I will be until the deadline! I could go for either Sally or Pitch, I have vaguely good feelings about Kath so I wouldn't want to vote for her. I don't want to go for Boro or Huin toDay, either, I'm too confused about them to in good conscience vote for them.

I don’t want to influence you put this popped into my head if we kill Sally and she’s innocent since I decided to vote her over you:p
This. (https://youtu.be/rQ6N-sb7SVQ)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Argh. I was just about to say that I'd prefer voting Boro over Hui, but now this is going into directions I do not have the brain capacity for at this hour.

[Boromir88]

I got distracted for a bit but now I am back...

I am not sure what to think about Boro suddenly being so friendly, plus now I see Boro voted Hui and Hui voted Boro, as if to challenge me to vote for the other. Well, I am probably more inclined to vote Boro, also because of the conciliatory tone of his #176.

Need to make sense of things, slightly catching up stuff here. Will try to make sense of stuff soon, hopefully not crossposted with too many again.

Well, if you believe it when I say it, it wasn't conciliation. As I said I still find those your points suspicious, but your responses back gave me a bit of pause. Huey jumped ahead of you the way he hyper zoned in on me after I was focusing in on you.

I don't like the misrepresentation that I ignored his accusation, especially since it ignored my point that I wasn't interested in distractions: See this post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=730945&postcount=139)

[Thinlómien]

I'm getting to the point that I would be tempted to lynch one of Hui / Boro / Legate just to shed light on the others' roles. I think it would be more informative than finding out Sally's role, just saying. Sally's been so quiet she's scarcely mentioned anyone. (Others have mentioned her, of course. But there's nothing to compare to if we could untie the whole Hui / Boro / Legate knot.)

(Side note: I'm also thinking I'm not thinking this through, and not sure if I should act in the heat of the moment. I'm not really sure about any of Hui / Boro / Legate. I mean they're all fishy but I feel like one should have something more concrete on Day2.)

It's kind of comforting to me that Sally was the first one to get the 2 votes, because if toDay's voting ends in a chaos and multiple ties, then we at lynch someone I don't consider particularly innocent, if I don't have enough grounds to suspect her either. (I would feel more worried about the situation if Lottie had got the 2 votes first.)


edit: xed with several

[Loslote]

It's kind of comforting to me that Sally was the first one to get the 2 votes, because if toDay's voting ends in a chaos and multiple ties, then we at lynch someone I don't consider particularly innocent, if I don't have enough grounds to suspect her either. (I would feel more worried about the situation if Lottie had got the 2 votes first.)

The Dead will also be voting today, I believe, so we should be aware that any ties or one vote leads might flip when their vote is announced.

[Thinlómien]

The Dead will also be voting today, I believe, so we should be aware that any ties or one vote leads might flip when their vote is announced. Good point. But I don't think we can do much about that, eh? They're two innocents there, I trust them to their job and vote for someone suspicious. And since we can't guess who they will vote, it'll have to be a surprise. Better make it a good one, Greenie and Form, we're counting on you!

[Thinlómien]

Well, what the hell. Someone's gotta do something.

++Huinesoron

Out of the trio of doom, it's him and Boro who have votes, and I suspect him more than Boro (yes despite suspecting him a little less after the Form kill). So if we start unraveling that knot, I suggest starting here.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I think I am simply lacking the attention span to do anything more than vote. I will just go with Hui. Let's hope that if he dies, it will help untangle several questions.

++Huinesoron

EDIT: x-ed with Lommy

[Thinlómien]

Also sorry Lottie, I just figured I misunderstood your implication :o *facepalm*

Anyway, that being said, there's still votes to go, and I ultimately trust the dead not to mess this up for us. (Maybe I'm shirking responsibility, but. Obviously if we lynch a wolf, it was our doing, and if we lynch an innocent, it was the dead's fault. :p)

[Thinlómien]

Legate???? You were supposed to be pro-Huinesoron??

What's going on???

[Pitchwife]

I feel we have to sever this Gordian knot somehow. I'd prefer lynching Legate, but if that's not going to happen


.SDJGHÖdslkghadlk-gjfälkadgjölakfjghkjadhg


Allright
++Hui

[Thinlómien]

This game is absolutely batexcrement. :D

[Loslote]

Okay. It's down to Sally vs Huin for me, and I'm more suspicious of Sally. But I absolutely see the argument for voting someone who, if they are a wolf, gives you more information, and Huin absolutely fits that bill. I believe Legate just cast the tiebreaking vote anyway, so if I vote Sally that allows Pitch to make the decision, which I do find tempting after yesterDay! Tricky business. :p

Ahh, I see I deliberated too long and the deed is done. I'll make it a Dead-proof majority, apologies to the Dead Thread:

++Huinesoron

[Morsul the Dark]

I mean I do have Huin in my theory pack and I vote them yesterday. I won’t be sad if they’re a wolf but wow that’s a turn.

Xed Lottie jeez

[Pitchwife]

This game is absolutely batexcrement. :D
It is.


Also WTFIVOTE20MINTODLBUTITSSTILLTHROWAWAY???

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Legate???? You were supposed to be pro-Huinesoron??

What's going on???

I don't know since when have people been thinking this... he was on my watchlist already yesterDay.

[Thinlómien]

WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THIS CROSSPOSTING??? IT'S NOT EVEN DEADLINE???

I sure hope Hui is a wolf.

Otherwise I'm gonna smash Boro and Legate's heads together toMorrow.

....I might do that anyway.

sdfghjhgfdsasdfghjk

[Boromir88]

See what I mean Legate, how the 1st vote can start a bandwagon?

[Morsul the Dark]

Huin (https://youtu.be/_LUPCclOULk) watching the votes come in probably.

[Huinesoron]

For this, I tossed and turned and picked up the phone again?

I'm still an ordo even though I'm getting lynched, so why not take this time to consider what that means for your jolly information-gathering exercise? (I'd personally start with the fact that all three of my wolf picks voted for me - or doesn't it count if I don't append Wolf to their names? :p)

Perhaps there lies a curse upon my fate.
Forgive me that I did not see it sooner!

See you in the Dead Thread - hopefully the wolves first.

hS

[Loslote]

See what I mean Legate, how the 1st vote can start a bandwagon?

Sometimes it just happens that way. :eek: Having the tiebreaker be "first to receive the votes" is very effective at encouraging early votes!

[Thinlómien]

See what I mean Legate, how the 1st vote can start a bandwagon?Are you telling me this was some kind of a test/game from your part???? :eek::mad:

Or are you threatening Legate?? :D

I don't know. Too late for my brain. I would really like to know what Boro is scheming, but hopefully knowing Huin's role will help.


edit: xed with everyone after Boro

[Huinesoron]

Huin (https://youtu.be/_LUPCclOULk) watching the votes come in probably.

YUP.

deadhS

[Pitchwife]

Also if Lommy en't innocent she's faking it well enough for an Oscar.

[Thinlómien]

Huin, I hope you're a wolf and trolling, but whether you are or not, you can rest assured I will CERTAINLY look at Boro and Legate toMorrow. If you're innocent, I'm sorry, and I hope that's a comforting thought.

Ps. How is it still only .54???

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

See what I mean Legate, how the 1st vote can start a bandwagon?

What's this, some sort of flaunting, when it even was not a point I disagreed on?

[Huinesoron]

Also if Lommy en't innocent she's faking it well enough for an Oscar.

What, by Lynching For Information and then flailing dramatically about when the vote gets taken up? Nah, and your strings of random letters aren't Oscar-worthy innocence either.

hSleepy

[Thinlómien]

Why is Legate so grumpy sounding? About to lose a packmate?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Last moments are making me brutally doubt Boro and what all this was about.

[Boromir88]

WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THIS CROSSPOSTING??? IT'S NOT EVEN DEADLINE???

I sure hope Hui is a wolf.

Otherwise I'm gonna smash Boro and Legate's heads together toMorrow.

....I might do that anyway.

sdfghjhgfdsasdfghjk

No I mean how I'm very nervous that everyone after me voted for Huey, after everyone kept saying it wasn't a "likely possibility."

So, in my opinion either Huey is a wolf and his 2 mates bussed him. Or I'm suddenly fearing that he is as he says, just an ordo, and all these Huey votes at the end (Lommy, Legate, Pitch, Lottie) that 3 of you are wolves.

[Pitchwife]

tiebreaker
It just occurs to me this would make a fine title for a Brandon Sanderson novel.


Sorry, nothing more substantial to contribute before we find out whether we've screwed up royally or not.

[Morsul the Dark]

I feel left out (https://youtu.be/ZMSMk1BeslA)

[Huinesoron]

Huin, I hope you're a wolf and trolling, but whether you are or not, you can rest assured I will CERTAINLY look at Boro and Legate toMorrow. If you're innocent, I'm sorry, and I hope that's a comforting thought.

Ps. How is it still only .54???

But not Pitch who actually sealed my fate? Because you're the wolves?

(Nope, not trolling.)

halfdeadS

[Loslote]

No I mean how I'm very nervous that everyone after me voted for Huey, after everyone kept saying it wasn't a "likely possibility."

So, in my opinion either Huey is a wolf and his 2 mates bussed him. Or I'm suddenly fearing that he is as he says, just an ordo, and all these Huey votes at the end (Lommy, Legate, Pitch, Lottie) that 3 of you are wolves.

I wouldn't be hugely surprised. I realized that of the four people left, none of us were going to agree on anyone else - no one else seemed to want to vote Sally, I didn't want to vote Boro, Pitch didn't want to vote Pitch...

[Huinesoron]

It just occurs to me this would make a fine title for a Brandon Sanderson novel.


Sorry, nothing more substantial to contribute before we find out whether we've screwed up royally or not.

You have.

Well, the innocents have. Not YOU.

hS

[Galadriel55]

The outlaws of Dorthorion were keeping their distance toDay, far more so than the 6 feet they kept during the plague that burned through their camp last Year. Friends had turned against friends. Old rivalries had taken hold again. The outlaws could barely trust themselves and their own judgement, let alone the judgement of their neighbors. They eyed each other suspiciously, looking for cuts or injuries that could have occured during the attack the Night prior.

Then the finger pointing began.

“It’s Lottie, Sally, and Hui,” yelled Lommy.

“No, no, no, I think Lottie is innocent and Sally… ehh...it’s definitely Boro,” said Hui.

"Excuse me?" Boro asked. "No, it's definitely Hui!"

“Sally could be a wolf. She talks an awful lot about “gut feelings”,” Legate added.

“Legate looks suspicious to me,” Boro chimed in.

“Lottie is wearing green shoes and I don’t like that,” Sally said, pointing to Lottie’s feet.

“Hey! My shoes are awesome!”

“Yeah, well Sally you’re wearing a brown coat and that looks suspicious to me!” Kath countered. “Plus Form voted for her yesterday and now he’s dead!”

“Yeah, I’m going to go with Lottie too,” Soriman said.

“Why?” Kath asked.

“Uhh...brown coat! I don’t like brown coats,” Soriman said, then promptly took off.

“Well that’s odd, but back to Sally’s gut feelings…” Legate said, steering the conversation back towards his opinions.

“All this talk of guts is making mine grumble,” Lommy muttered.

“Sally and Huin are on my radar,” Morsul said.

“Huin! And Boro and Legate!” rose a whole chorus of voices.

“But who is the worst of them?” Lommy bemoaned.

“Huin!” Lottie cried, “His death would bring us peace - and if not peace, then knowledge!” She grabbed a javelin and raised it in a mighty strike. As she threw it forward, a strong wind arose. As it rustled the pine branches, it almost sounded as if a distant voice called Sally! The sudden gust blew the javelin ever so slightly towards sally, but could not sway the heavy weapon from its path before it sunk deep into the center of Huin's chest. He gasped and collapsed forward onto the green grass.

Huin’s very human corpse lay unmoving in the earth as the wind died down and the sunset painted the waters of Tarn Aeluin crimson.


My grief is not that you were then too brave!
My grief is that you are bereft of hope here. (https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vSN16C_vvUG5JKsrTZr2udBozkG_tPCktlYKwj60wf_I_qhza G5QeJXxF8JanmUwXsMuIMlRHPZhois/pub#h.9pjc7ovfafcj)



The Living
Boro
Kath
Legate
Lommy
Loslote
Morsul
Pitch
Sally
Soriman

The Dead
Gorlim (NPC/Ghost)
Galadriel55 (Night 1)
BlindGuardian (Night 1)
Greenie (Day 1 - Ordo)
Formendacil (Night 2 - Ordo)
Hui (Day 2 - Ordo)


It is now Night 3. Wolves - scheme, Seer - dream, Ranger - go save your team. Or something.

[Blind Guardian]

Gorlim awoke to the sound of banging and the feeling of red hot iron. He hoped his nightmare had merely been a bad dream, but it had not. Standing over him were two gnarly Orcs holding glowing red daggers.

“Wakey, wakey eggs and bakey. ‘Sept you’re not getting any meat,” they sneered.

Gorlim tried to move away, but he had been tied down tight. “I’ve told you before: I don’t know what you want!”

Yes you do.

Gorlim turned his head towards the deep, booming voice. In the darkened corner were two fiery red eyes shrouded in liquid black shadow.

The Orcs cackled wildly. “The Master knows all!”

Tell me what I wish to know.

“I...I don’t know...know anything,” Gorlim’s eyes teared up. “Nothing!”

There is far worse evil than me. Do you wish to meet him?

The Orcs tapped the tips of their burning daggers into Gorlim’s skin making hundreds of tiny little cuts and some larger ones too, for good measure.

“Alright I’ll tell you!” he shrieked. “I saw her leaving one night; the Ranger! She got on her stead and rode away on one of her father’s missions!”

"Please, I beg of you, cease this torture!" Gorlim begged.

Very well. Sauron said. Kill him.

----****----

No one paid the carrion any mind. Normally, they would be perfectly welcome to land in trees and eat leftover scraps of meat. However, this bird carried a note tied to its leg. Eventually, it landed on the arm of one of the outlaws. A very human looking outlaw that hid a furry, evil secret. The outlaw untied the note and the carrion bird flew off.

Upon untying it the note merely said, “++Lottie”.

----****----

As the outlaws arose at dawn, they were immediately thrust into a frenzied chaos. Nine had gone to sleep, but only eight woke up. First, they found Lottie, their poor hard working Ranger, dead in her bed still clad in her riding gear. Then as they went to the edge of Tarn Aeluin to mourn, it seemed to them that they saw a form that came to them across the water, and it was a wraith of Gorlim. Despite his death, he felt guilty at his betrayal and wished to repent for his deeds. And he spoke to them in Form’s voice, yet his meaning was unclear, enshrouded in words they could not comprehend.


The Living
Boro
Kath
Legate
Lommy
Morsul
Pitch
Sally
Soriman
***Formendacil - Ghost (Gorlim)

The Dead
Gorlim (NPC/Ghost)
Galadriel55 (Night 1)
BlindGuardian (Night 1)
Greenie (Day 1 - Ordo)
***Formendacil (Night 2 - Ordo)
Hui (Day 2 - Ordo)
Loslote (Night 3 - Ranger)


It is now Day 3.


A reminder that no specific instructions may be given to the Ghost. He may post in full-sentence Tolkien quotes of 5 words or more. He may not vote. He may not read the Dead Thread toDay. He will return to the Dead at Nightfall. It was brought to my attention that the forum doesn’t actually allow you to post only quote boxes, it requires some “unquoted” text in the post; therefore, the Ghost will sign his posts with “Ghost” to allow it to go through.

[Morsul the Dark]

Ok, first off what was that DL rush yesterday?

Secondly our Ranger is done that sucks.

Ok here’s the deal we Need to kill a wolf today or lose. They have 3 votes we have 5. I propose two plans. Both high risk high reward.

Now if there’s a ghost, and I assume there is based on Form’s appearance in the narration, and they may have extra information this may change the odds that I’ve laid out here by helping us choose correctly but I don’t think that information can override the three votes the wolves have. The second any innocent votes the wrong person they wolf pile and get to four votes and only the dead can save us.

So plan one:

we all vote the same person but we all have to agree. We win together or lose together. That gives us a 37% chance.


Plan two:

I anticipate a seer reveal and a counter reveal. Here’s the deal Seer and WolfSeer you Must vote in your reveal post. This will effectively neutralize one innocent vote and one wolf vote that gives us a 2-1 advantage on the remaining votes. If the seer has dreamed a wolf we have a 50/50 shot. Otherwise it’s a similar 37%

If a seer is worried about losing their vote they’re probably the wolf they won’t want to give up a third of their power.

So.

Unless someone else has a Brilliant plan these our choices. Discuss.

[Formendacil]

"Stay a moment!" I said. "We shall need your help, and the help of all things that will give it. Send out messages to all the beasts and birds that are your friends.

Ghost

[Morsul the Dark]

I assume that’s an opening “here to help.” The books don’t have a “You have my sword” :smokin:

So I guess the question is how much information the ghost has. I wonder if yes or no questions work.

*Walks casually over to ghostForm* Sup dude man being dead must be a bummer but like do you have the name of a wolf?

[Boromir88]

*Sigh* I was hoping I would be targeted, but I understand why I wasn't. I let my Redrum vision get in the way and contributed to an innocent being lynched. I got caught up in thinking my words were being twisted. May Huey forgive me when all is said and done.

All I can say is if I'm lynched now we've lost, whether anyone believes it or not, well I hope they do. I will not go out quietly, if this is to be our end may we make such an end it's worthy of remembrance.

Top suspect is Legate. With that said...

To which I'd add "X doesn't suspect me, does that mean they're an innocent who has a good read on me or a wolf trying to buddy up to me? I don't really suspect them either, does that mean I should? If I don't suspect them, is it just because they don't suspect me? But I'm actually innocent, so if they don't suspect me that's OK, isn't it?" - Boro and sally, this is about you.

Read this previous day and duly noted. I will have a hard look at sally AND Lommy today.

And since it appears a ghost-Form has come in our day of need, hopefully he can shed some light on something to aid us.

(As a RL note: My birthday is tomorrow and since I didn't get a chance to really celebrate last year...apparently a bunch of people are going all out and invited me to do a bunch of stuff throughout the day. So I'm going to have to vote early in the morning, likely 9-10 hours before the DL)

Edit: Crossed with Form and Morsul

[Formendacil]

It came to pass that the Valar held council, for they became troubled by the tidings that Yavanna and Oromë brought from the Outer Lands; and Yavanna spoke before the Valar, saying: 'Ye mighty of Arda, the Vision of Ilúvatar was brief and soon taken away, so that maybe we cannot guess within a narrow count of days the hour appointed. Yet be sure of this: the hour approaches, and within this age our hope shall be revealed

Ghost

[Morsul the Dark]

So. No? I think. They weren’t able to narrow it down to a wolf. That would’ve been easy.

So maybe they have some innocent names instead.

Hey FormerForm hmm I wonder what the scope of questions is. Did you get a read on Sally?

[Morsul the Dark]

Actually I’m probably being too narrow. They get info about “wolves and gifteds “ activities which is picked by wolves.

Uh anyway I stand my original post and plans but if someone is better at interrogation have at it.

[Boromir88]

I have to admit, this ghost role looks like it's going to be a blast. It's an interesting dynamic and hopefully if we don't muck things up there will be more chances for a ghost.

Umm...so far from what I've gathered (I really don't want to be Isildur cursed so I'm a bit wary)

The first quote, from Council of Elrond is a generic "Councils will be taken. Stay and listen because we will need your help from all friends"

The 2nd quote, from The Silm. Yavanna and Orome, speaks of the "Vision of Iluvatar" so messages that the ghosts picked up from ModGod55? But that information was "brief" and "taken away" so whatever little information they've picked up from G55?

Edit: Crossed with Morsul twice

[Formendacil]

we must guess the riddles, if we are to choose our course rightly," answered Aragorn.

Ghost

[Galadriel55]

They get info about “wolves and gifteds “ activities which is picked by wolves.

To clarify, as there are so far no wolves on the DT, the information so far was not picked by wolves but merely by yours truly and BG. However, it will be picked by wolves when/if a wolf dies, in the sense that they will be given a choice of 2-3 infodrops of which they select the one to be posted on the DT to be known to the Inno-Dead.

[Morsul the Dark]

Can I be honest I don’t care if we win or lose. This ghost thing is fun. Form is just top notch on the quotes

[Morsul the Dark]

To clarify, as there are so far no wolves on the DT, the information so far was not picked by wolves but merely by yours truly and BG. However, it will be picked by wolves when/if a wolf dies, in the sense that they will be given a choice of 2-3 infodrops of which they select the one to be posted on the DT to be known to the Inno-Dead.

Ah

[Boromir88]

Can I be honest I don’t care if we win or lose. This ghost thing is fun. Form is just top notch on the quotes

Seconded. I just hope we do manage to get a wolf and live to see another day for another ghost.

[Boromir88]

"We must guess the riddles if we are to choose our course rightly"

---

So, I take this to mean we have to start asking Ghost!Form questions to get the messages he has, and that meaning they can't just reveal it.

Alright, is there a formal way about this...or can we just kind of wing it?

Ghost!Form have our fallen kin learned of the name of a betrayer among our ranks?

[Formendacil]

He then pointed out and named

and five you have measured ere the

before aught else was made

day is ended! Hardy is the race of Elendil!

Ghost

[Morsul the Dark]

So the wolves or at least one or two of them were in the bandwagon. That narrows it down.

[Formendacil]

'No,' said Gandalf. 'But you see further ahead in the clear light.

Ghost

[Galadriel55]

A gentle reminder that Ghost quotes must be full sentences. Do not delete what you have up, Form, but in future please put your communication in full sentence quotes.

[Boromir88]

So the wolves or at least one or two of them were in the bandwagon. That narrows it down.

Well Lottie was night killed so it narrows it down a little more.

Myself
Lommy
Legate
Pitch

I've already spent yesterday focusing on Legate. And of course you are under no obligation to listen to me, but if you'd like, perhaps you can dig into Legate's posts, perhaps see something I haven't. Dig into my posts if you want or whoever else suits you.

I've been too trusting towards Pitch and Lommy the first 2 days and need to look into them. In the next couple hours I think I'll have to bid everyone namárië until the morning.

[Boromir88]

Ahh crossed with the Ghost's response. Apparently that's a no. Ok scrap that but Morsul's question is on the right trail.

[Formendacil]

Therefore at the sixth hour of the First Day,

In the Lake-town we have always elected

and five you have measured ere the

one of the Big People

there are wargs and were-wolves

Ghost