So why bother to answer?? (Estelyn's Rant)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The Books is for advanced discussions of Middle-earth.

This forum now has 39(!) pages; some of the topics are very interesting, some more humorous, some quite challenging to read. It's my favorite place to go, but I am finding a category of posts that is increasingly annoying me! It is the "answer that is none" post. Here's what I mean:

A question is asked - easy, difficult, book-related, speculative - it doesn't matter. Invariably, there will be a post saying:

"I don't know, because I haven't read that book yet."
"I have no idea what you guys are talking about."
"I wish I knew, but I don't."
"Wow, this is an interesting question, but I don't know either."

I am all in favor of honest questions because someone wants to learn from the "experts". I have absolutely nothing against answers such as:

"I know there's a reference, but I haven't got it right now - I will get back as soon as I find it."
"This is such an interesting question that you have started me thinking about it."
"I laughed so hard reading your post!"
"This is my opinion, though I have nothing from the books to prove it."

Those are answers that say something! But why tell us all if you know nothing and have nothing to say? Even a fool would be thought wise if he would keep his mouth closed, the Bible says somewhere. (I don't have the exact words and reference right now, but if I find them, I will post them here! smilies/wink.gif )

Looking forward to enjoying many interesting and substantial posts...

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

[Melephelwen]

I have no idea what you're talking about! smilies/confused.gif

*giggles in a guilty way*

Sorry, couldn't help it. smilies/wink.gif
I can see what you mean, (and I have been guilty in that sort of posts earlier, smilies/frown.gif ) but I'll try not to do it. It doesn't help anybody... smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

I think I can answer that, as I have done it myself. smilies/rolleyes.gif The answer: Some people just want to post. Plain and simple posting.

[Rimbaud]

Indeed, I concur, Princess Telcontar. There is an implicit arrogance in posting on message boards in any case. It is a belief that people have a desire to read your words and will spend time doing so. It is a rather more inherent self-promotion than even having a work published, for instance. This arrogance reaches its apex in the dross of such posts as you so ably describe. The fewer of these that are posted, the less difficult it will be to unearth the gems of threads/posts that can and do still occur.

I fully expect someone to pick me up on this post for instance; for in truth it has no apparent use, yet is my futile attempt to lend my vast weight and gravitas to your well-made point. smilies/wink.gif

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

[Bêthberry]

Greetings Estelyn Telcontar,

I think the phenomenon you describe is part of Net culture, and perhaps relates to how one views the Net. It isn't limited to this Board or even to Tolkien boards, for I saw a similar trend happening on an XFiles board several years ago. Sadly, it ruined that board.

Some people view any form of writing, even that as ephemeral as on the Net, as having permanency, the permanency of the written word. These tend to be people who understand how to construct a discussion--as opposed to having an opinion--and who care about the quality of their writing. They want to find the best way to explain or express their ideas. And they want to listen to others who do the same. Does it make some kind of sense that the ability to listen to others comes with the ability to patiently explain oneself?

Other people view the Net as an extension of telephone conversation or the equivalent of coffee time chitchat or teenage gossip. They tend not to read past the last previous post to look at how the discussion developed (let alone learn to search for old threads from days gone by). They tend to use a particular kind of oral language and ignore or undervalue things like spelling and grammar in a desire for speedy, quick fast gratification. And it seems to me that they are focussed on opinion, theirs, and are interested only in finding others who share that opinion. Exploring the reasons behind that opinion is not a high priority. Perhaps they haven't developed the ability to reflect yet.

I could be wrong about this, but I think they tend to be people who don't have a long-term view of time. They live in the here and now and don't have a perspective which sees connections, patterns, and parallels. Those who do have a long-term view of time ironically don't waste time--and bandwidth--with idle comments.

I'm not trying to unfairly or falsely characterize people or posters with these thoughts and I apologize in advance if my comments offend anyone; I'm simply trying to find a meaning in the different patterns I see and you have characterized in your first post.

Respectfully,
Bethberry

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

My Bethberry, you have put quite some thinking into that last post haven't you. smilies/smile.gif

An excellent question you bring up Estelyn Telcontar and many valid points by all. I would like to also add my two pieces of mithril and will apologize ahead of time if I offend, but I will speak bluntly, but respectfully.

The "I-want-the-most-posts-out-of-everyone-on-the-board" citizens are present on every single board out there. They just are, and you can't help this. They post irrelevant, remedial, and annoying short posts that do nothing but insult the intelligence and time of the creater of a well thought out thread topic, and ruin the thread and ultimaely, the board in my opinion. Perhaps it is based on the superiority complex that is built into everyone's psycie, it shows more in some than others.

For some reason unbeknown to me, certain citizens believe that having the most posts under their belt makes them superior in some way to the other citizens, and in reality, is a childish endeavor. It's like saying "Ha ha, I have more of this than you". This really serves no purpose, post count, other than tell others how busy you are posting on the board. For those that look at post counts when making initial decisions on the person, and we all do this, this may effect what kind of response said person recieves.

In the end, it all comes down to the freedom to post whatever and wherever so long as it does not offend or insult. Citizens have this right, and some abuse it. Bottom line, and I've learned this now, we have to try to tolerate until it becomes an extremely disturbing annoyance for the board and its citizens. This is hard to do, and I myself find it extremely difficult to stop myself from posting a flaming reply to such posts. But for the sake of civility and good taste, I stop my hand.

I'm glad you brought this up, and perhaps it will change some minds.

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Orofacion of the Vanyar ]

[Lush]

Well, Esty, you certainly have a point. Not only is it annoying, it is also a total waste of space. I think Bethberry is also right in pointing out that some people take posting more seriously than others. And I am surprised that no one has yet mentioned the erroneous belief of certain members of this forum that more posts will help one aquire a personal title faster. If I know anything about the Barrow-Wight's way of thinking (and forgive me for being presumptuous here), it's quality, not quantity.

[Eärendil]

You have brought up a very good topic Estelyn! I so agree with you. I have been thinking about it myself several times when I´ve read posts. (I don´t remember posting like that myself, but if I have, I´m sorry.)
Why post if you don´t know the answer?
I think Aldagrim is right in answering "Some people just want to post. Plain and simple posting." But I also believe they are trying to get more posts. (I apologize if that´s what you meant, Aldagrim.)

I am happy to read (in Estelyns post) about what sorts of post she doesn´t have anything against. I have posted quite a few replies like that..
I must also say I agree with Bethberry´s, Orofacion´s and Lush´s posts, that too is what I´m thinking.
My two cents. smilies/wink.gif

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Eärendil ]

[burrahobbit]

Estelyn makes some good points, but I want to add some emphasis. If I take the time to start a topic it's because I'd like to know what other people think, or I have a question that I'd like answered. When I get that email telling me that somebody has replied I get really excited. "Ooh, somebody has answered my question! Maybe now my mind will be able to rest!" So I rush over to see what the new post is, will it be the answer that I so very much desire? No, probably not. It's probably somebody that has no idea what I'm talking about. I honestly think that they do it just to make me mad.

[Sarin Elfarmour]

i agree with you Estlyn, i've read al the the Hobbit and LOTR at least three times i just finished th silm and am reading UT, but i also understand that some ppl cant find a copy of some of the books so they ask those of us who have for some answers

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Sarin, I'm not ranting about questions here - just about answers that are none.

[Lush]

I honestly think that they do it just to make me mad.

Well, burra, that's because you're cute when you're mad.
*ahem*
Back to your regular scheduled posting NOW.

Esty, I appreciate you starting this thread. Maybe a few people will understand that posting just for the sake of posting is a waste of space.

[burrahobbit]

Dude, I'm cute all of the time, but that doesn't change the fact that meaningless posts are very very annoying. Seriously, people, don't be very very annoying. It's just about the most uncool thing that you could do.

[Elrian]

Very good thread Estelyn! A few more would be:
Yeah, I agree with so and so.
or just a smiley, like so: " smilies/biggrin.gif "
or just hehehe, or LOL.
And posting the wrong answers deliberately to add a post.

Posting just to post or to pad your post count is one of the reasons I think many posters wind up getting such low ratings too.

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Mithalwen]

I found this while looking for something else. And I think it is well worth "doing a HerenIstarion" to it .

[Elennar Starfire]

What does it mean to "do a HerenIstarion"?

I suppose it depends on the forum, whether such posts are an annoyance. I am a member of another board with a section for chatting, those who wish to be chatty can do it there. I actually like the chatting section, but when chattiness gets into serious discussions it gets very annoying. So I guess my point is, there's a place for chatty posts, and a place for serious ones. If you can distinguish between them, you'll do well.

Hopefully that made sense to someone other than me...

[Encaitare]

Well, Elennar, Heren seems to have a thing for sending old but interesting threads up to the top so the newer crowd can have a look at them and revive them. Do I sense a new phrase of Downs-slang? To do a HerenIstarion? :D

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Do I sense a new phrase of Downs-slang? To do a HerenIstarion?
That's a good one! I have to remember that :D

On-topic: Fresh corpses (and maybe some more rottened ones, too) can sometimes feel that they're a bit outsiders here if they can't really answer any asked question or participate in a vivid debate going on. If they write just a few words (no matter, how meaningless they are), people doesn't forget them completely. Unfortunately, "answers" like mentioned above don't really give them good reputation.

Those interrupting comments don't bother me much since I have used to skip them but I understand that it's irritating when someone meddles in a conversation with lines like "whaddar u guys talkin' about" and such. I guess it's the best and most subtle way to reduce comments like that by keeping this thread up and hint people who write that stuff to come here and read this thread.

ps. at least that made sense to me Elennar :)

[Mithalwen]

That's a good one! I have to remember that :D

On-topic: Fresh corpses (and maybe some more rottened ones, too) can sometimes feel that they're a bit outsiders here if they can't really answer any asked question or participate in a vivid debate going on. .. Unfortunately, "answers" like mentioned above don't really give them good reputation.

Those interrupting comments don't bother me much since I have used to skip them but I understand that it's irritating when someone meddles in a conversation with lines like "whaddar u guys talkin' about"


Yes, but I would feel a bit mean if that happened since "doing a HI" could just as validly (and more generously) be "to be very kind and encouraging to new downers" or "to be amazingly articulate and erudite in one's third or fourth language":I realise also that "to do a Mithalwen" could well be "to make a flippant remark, sail close to the wind or otherwise test the tolerances of the mods",or "to make a rambling, stream of consciousness post".

To return to the point, I do sympathise with your points since it took me some time after registering to pluck up my courage to post, even in the quiz forums - and even longer to post in "Books". I am very grateful for the encouragemnet I received there. However, as Estelyn said, Books is the advanced forum ( but I am sure, from my experience , that genuine requests for information would be met). N&N seems more relaxed as is fitting and gives a chance for the more recently dead to cut their teeth. Mirth has been dealt with elsewhere. :rolleyes:

[mark12_30]

Heren-Istarion: archaic elvish: five wizards.
Proper Noun: A highly reputable Downer.
Slang: verb. To Heren-Istarion: The wizardly practice of searching out ancient lore from the dusty archives and appending a current post in the hopes that those following might glean information, gain wisdom, or be enlightened.
Abbreviation: to H-I, or to HI-up.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I realise also that "to do a Mithalwen" could well be "to make a flippant remark, sail close to the wind or otherwise test the tolerances of the mods"
Nah, just look at your reputation :p :)

[edit: Happy 500th to me :smokin: ]