Family Tree Trivia

[symestreem]

Well, it could be the Silver Tree himself, Celeborn of Doriath and Lorien, or it could be Earendil. (The Silver Tree is Celeborn; Celeborn's grandfather was Elmo, Elmo's only known grandson is Celeborn, Celeborn's male grandchildren are Elladan and Elrohir, and their grandfathers are Celeborn and Earendil.)

[NightKnight]

The Silver Tree is Celeborn, but you have the wrong persons.

[symestreem]

OK. Well, Celeborn's only listed grandfather was Elmo; Elmo's listed grandsons were Celeborn and his brother Galathil. Galathil was the father of Nimloth, who was the mother of *slaps forehead* Elured and Elurin!! Their grandfathers were Galathil and Beren.

[NightKnight]

Beren was the one I was looking for. Please proceed!

[symestreem]

Tar-Aldarion's aunt's great-great-great-uncle's son-in-law's grandmother was ___.

I don't know if the definition of great-uncle is the same all over the world, so I'll clarify: in this puzzle, a great-uncle would be a grandparent's brother. A great-great-uncle would be a great-grandparent's brother.

[NightKnight]

Gilraen?

[symestreem]

Nope.

[Firefoot]

Dírhael?

[symestreem]

Not unless he had a sex-change operation.

[The Perky Ent]

Ivorwen?

[symestreem]

Third time's the charm!! You're correct.

[symestreem]

You there?

[Fingolfin II]

Perky?

[Fingolfin II]

Since Perky isn't responding.....

Who is Galadriel's father's wife's daughter's grandfather's youngest brother's son's cousin's son's wife's father's brother's wife?

[NightKnight]

Galadriel?

[Fingolfin II]

:). The smile says it all.

[NightKnight]

Alright then:

Who was Gil-Galad's father's niece's husband's mother's cousin's son's stepfather's wife's father?

[Son of Númenor]

"Who was Gil-Galad's father's niece's husband's mother's cousin's son's stepfather's wife's father?"

Gil-Galad-->Fingon-->Idril-->Tuor-->Rían-->Morwen-->Túrin-->Thingol-->Melian-->

fatherless? Eru?

This is the only one I could come up with. Perhaps I am missing something.

[NightKnight]

You're absolutely right. Eru it is. :)

[Son of Númenor]

NightKnight, you had me questioning my ability to comprehend family trees. ;)

Here's an easy one: How many times did Elfstan Fairbairn's mother's husband's father-in-law meet the maternal great-grandmother of Gondor's 36th king?

[Fingolfin II]

He (Sam) met Ivorwen zero times.

[Mithalwen]

Sam - yes but the maternal great grandmothers would be Galadriel and Elwing: so Elwing is none but Galadriel would be - hard to say how many exact times but loosely three - in Lorien, in Gondor for the wedding and for a lot of the journey home and at the Grey Havens. Of course he may have seen her again in the Undying Lands....

[Son of Númenor]

You've got it Mithalwen, unless I'm counting the kings wrong. Which may well be the case... :rolleyes:

[Mithalwen]

Well I did try to count but I wasn't sure about counting Elendil & Anarion separately..and had a hunch it was Eldarion... OK here goes... and I really hope I have got this right :rolleyes:

Barahir's father's first cousin's mother's first cousin's wife.

Yeah..think that works ..... :D

[Firefoot]

Welcome to the Downs, Mithalwen! :)

I don't think Barahir's father (Bregor) has any cousins.

[The Perky Ent]

Are you refering to Barahir, son of Faramir, because i don't think he had cousins either.

[symestreem]

Although finding my clothes to pack would be good too...
Aha!! That Barahir does not work, but is the answer Eowyn? Barahir's father was Elboron, cousin to Elfwine, son of Lothiriel, cousin to Faramir, husband to Eowyn.

[Mithalwen]

Yes Symestream is right..... a little bit sneaky to choose the most obscure Barahir but I couldn't resist that particularly knotty family tree-let... I was only sorry I couldn't find the exact realtionship of Morwen of Lossarnarch to Imrahil..... since Eowyn/Eomer and Faramir/Lothiriel were themselves distant cousins through that link...

Just hope the next generation branched out a bit before it got too Hapsburgian :rolleyes:

Thanks for the welcome btw....

[symestreem]

Who was Elrohir's niece's grandfather's wife's mother? Both answers, please.

[piosenniel]

Would that be Galadriel and Ivorwen?

[NightKnight]

*Bumpity*

[Firefoot]

10 day rule!

How were Fëanor and Galadriel related?

[NightKnight]

Fëanor was Galadriel's (half-)uncle.

[Firefoot]

Good.

[NightKnight]

Whose great grandson was killed by Azog? There are two answers, and I want both. ;)

[The Perky Ent]

Oin and Nain II?

[NightKnight]

Yup. :)

[The Perky Ent]

Alright! Who was Aredhel's husbands sons grandfathers mother in laws grandson?

[Fingolfin II]

OK, I'll try to work through this logically-

Aredhel's husband- Eol
Eol's son- Maeglin
Maeglin's grandfather- Fingolfin
Fingolfin's mother-in-law- ???? (I think his wife is called Anaire)
Fingolfin's mother-in-law's grandson- Turgon/Fingon

So, is the answer either Turgon or Fingon?

[The Perky Ent]

Correct!

[Fingolfin II]

Cool, try-

Celegorm's love's husband's son's grandfather's youngest brother's great-granddaughter's father's father's second-oldest brother's daughter's daughter's daughter's husband's father's father's wife's father's father's father's oldest son's grandson is _________?

[NightKnight]

Celebrimbor?

[Fingolfin II]

That is absolutely correct.

[NightKnight]

Tricksy one. ;)

Who was Finduilas' only first cousin?

[Fingolfin II]

Celebrian, I believe.

[NightKnight]

Yep.

[Fingolfin II]

How many first cousins did Gil-Galad have and who were they?

[Nanedhel]

Two? That would be Idril and Maeglin.

I don't recall any references to who Gil-Galad's mother was, so the only cousins I know of are on his father's side. Of course, I am assuming that you are considering Gil-Galad to be the son of Fingon, and not Orodreth as has been suggested in later works of HoME.

[Fingolfin II]

Yep, exactly what I was after. I'm going by the version in the Sil where CJRT made him Fingon's son as is shown in the family tree at the back. You're up ;).

[Nanedhel]

How are Celeborn and Galadriel related?

[Firefoot]

They were married! :p

They were second cousins (a little close, don't you think?).

[Nanedhel]

Oops, I didn't ask that the relationship be spelled out. Extra points if you can trace the connection, otherwise the question is yours.

[Firefoot]

Galadriel's grandfather was Thingol, and Celeborn's grandfather was Elmo. Thingol and Elmo were brothers.

Name two sets of twins and how they are related to each other.

[Fingolfin II]

Elured and Elurin
Elladan and Elrohir

Elured/Elurin are the brothers of Elwing who is Elrond's mother, who in turn is the father of Elladan and Elrohir. So, that would make Elured/Elurin Elladan and Elrohir's grand-uncles?

[Firefoot]

Just one problem... Elwing was Elrond's mother. :p Other than that, perfect. The thread is yours.

[Fingolfin II]

Ah....forgot about this thread.

Who is Elrond's mother-in-law's husband's daughter's father's father's father's oldest brother's daughter's husband's grand-daughter's husband's mother's father's brother's son's male cousin's mother's father's oldest son's son?

[luthien-elvenprincess]

Is it Maeglin?

[NightKnight]

None? I get it to Turgon's son, and he didn't have one.

[Fingolfin II]

You're quite right NightKnight, I made a slight mistake in the question. It's been changed now, thanks for pointing it out.

[Firefoot]

Gil-Galad?

[Fingolfin II]

Yes.

[Firefoot]

Merry Brandybuck's maternal grandfather's youngest grandson's daughter-in-law's mother's oldest brother's wife's oldest nephew's namesake's father's grandfather's oldest brother's second daughter's great-grandson.

Have fun. :smokin:

[NightKnight]

Sancho Proudfoot. I just love these! :D

[Firefoot]

Yessiree!

[NightKnight]

Well well... A new one then, shall we?

Who was Celebrian's son's nephew's father's stepfather's grandmother's mother-in-law's uncle's great-grandson's second cousin's herald's wife's daughter?

[Nanedhel]

Is it Arwen?

Son - Elladan or Elrohir
Nephew - Eldarion
Father - Aragorn
Stepfather - Elrond
Grandmother - Nimloth
Mother-in-law - Lúthien
Uncle - Olwë
Great-grandson's second cousin - Erenion Gil-Galad
Herald - Elrond
Wife - Celebrian (hey, haven't we been here already?)
Daughter - Arwen

[NightKnight]

Yes, but it wouldn't have been as fun if I had just asked for Celebrian's daughter straight away, would it? :p

[Nanedhel]

Which of Elrond's ancestors was buried at the Haudh-en-Ndengin?

[Firefoot]

Rían?

[Nanedhel]

Close, but not quite the answer I was looking for.

[Fingolfin II]

Huor?

[Nanedhel]

You have it, Fingolfin II

[Fingolfin II]

Cheers,

Who is Fingolfin's daughter's son's father's oldest brother-in-law's son's herald's brother's niece's husband?

[Firefoot]

Aragorn.

[Fingolfin II]

That is......correct!

[Firefoot]

Name two ways Elrond and Túrin are related (one on their mothers' sides and one on their fathers' sides).

[NightKnight]

Elrond's father's father was Turin's cousin.
Elrond's mother's father's father's cousin's daughter was Turin's mother.

[Firefoot]

I'll take that. :)

[NightKnight]

Right-o.

Who was Maedhros cousin's daughter (two possible answers)?

[luthien-elvenprincess]

Idril & Finduilas & Celebrian (I count three :) )

[NightKnight]

Oops, forgot Idril, and you are of course right. Take it away!

[luthien-elvenprincess]

How are Elrond's own children related to him, except their relationship as sons and daughter, of course!

[NightKnight]

Elrond is their third cousin, once removed.

[luthien-elvenprincess]

Hummmm..NightKnight, could you explain that. I am having trouble seeing the relationship that way. I am seeing it a different way...but, I might be missing something. :)

[NightKnight]

Well, Galadriel and Turgon were first cousins. That makes Idril and Celebrian second cousins, and Eärendil and Arwen/Elladan/Elrohir third cousins. And then Elrond is their third cousin, once removed. Some of the phrases might be wrong, but I think I've got it right.

[luthien-elvenprincess]

Ah, I can see it that way too now.
The answer I was looking for was 'fourth cousins'. Elrond was a fourth cousin to his own children as follows:
1st cousins: Luthien and Earwen
2nd cousins: Dior and Galadriel
3rd cousins: Elwing and Celebrian
4th cousins: Elrond and Elladan/Elrohir/Arwen

Following the line as you did shows that Elrond and his grandson were also four :p th cousins!

Do you suppose that all the inbreeding is what caused their ears to be pointed? :D

Since your answer is correct, it is your turn!

[NightKnight]

Do you suppose that all the inbreeding is what caused their ears to be pointed? :D
That's it! You've solved it! :D

How were Merry and Pippin related?

[luthien-elvenprincess]

I believe that they were first cousins

[NightKnight]

Yep, that they were. :)

[luthien-elvenprincess]

Who are "double first cousins" to each other?

[luthien-elvenprincess]

(groan...drags thread back to activity...muscle ache... :rolleyes: )

need a clue?

[NightKnight]

Yes please. They're not hobbits, are they?

[luthien-elvenprincess]

No, not hobbits.

Clue: a double Edain wedding

[Firefoot]

Handir and Húrin/Huor?

[luthien-elvenprincess]

Exactly, good job Firefoot :)

[Firefoot]

Cheers.

What is the most distant way that Merry and Frodo are related?

(I hope this is at least remotely hard - it's getting tricky to come up with good questions for this game. :p )

[luthien-elvenprincess]

how about second cousins, once removed?

[Firefoot]

Nope.

[Galadriel55]

What is the most distant way that Merry and Frodo are related?

All the hobbits are related somehow. The most distant way would be several pages long.;)

[Supermanglide]

i agree , Sorry it took me so extended to reply. Your turn.

[Urwen]

You'll love this one....or not....:D

Who is Arwen's paternal first cousin thrice removed?

[Huinesoron]

You'll love this one....or not....:D

Who is Arwen's paternal first cousin thrice removed?

I think she has several, none of whom she lived at the same time as.

Her paternal first cousin is her father's sibling's child - ie, Vardamir Nolimon, titular second King of Numenor. That much I could do without looking at the family tree.

You can't go three generations up from Vardamir (well, you can, but you hit Earendil, who's Arwen's grandad, not her cousin), so you have to go down. Known members of the fifth generation of the House of Elros are:

-Irimion Tar-Meneldur, big fan of stars, not a big fan of his son bickering with his wife.
-Silmarien, unfairly untitled mother of the Lords of Andunie.
-Isilme, the 'and Peggy' of Tar-Elendil's kids.
-Caliondo, grandson of Tar-Amandil, and father of Malantur, Tar-Aldarion's heir apparent until he changed the law to let Ancalime rule (quite right too).
-Cemendur, great-grandson of Vardamir, and grandfather of Hallacar husband of Ancalime.
-Lindisse, sister of the above.
-Ardamir, brother of the above.

That's, what, seven named characters in the fifth generation? I've got to be honest, I didn't expect anywhere near that many. I'm not at all sure I haven't missed a couple, either.

(Does the tree branch out this much all the way down? I kind of want to look into that at some point...)

hS

[Urwen]

Nope.



I got the information I am after from Sporcle.

[Huinesoron]

Nope.

I got the information I am after from Sporcle.

Are you saying nope, none of those are that type of cousin, or nope, I didn't find the one you're after?

(Maeglin is her paternal fourth cousin thrice removed, incidentally; I know because I checked that first. :))

hS

[Urwen]

Are you saying nope, none of those are that type of cousin, or nope, I didn't find the one you're after?

(Maeglin is her paternal fourth cousin thrice removed, incidentally; I know because I checked that first. :))

hS

Well, then Sporcle gave me false information.

You have failed me, Sporcle. :o

https://i.imgur.com/daLZSI8.png

[Huinesoron]

Well, then Sporcle gave me false information.

You have failed me, Sporcle. :o

Ah, but cousinness isn't reversible. The degree of cousin is based on how far back you have to go for a shared ancestor: first is a shared grandparent, second a shared Great-grandparent, etc. Maeglin's granddad was Fingolfin, who is Arwen's ancestor, but he's Arwen's great-great-great-granddad, hence fourth cousin from her side. (The remove is how many generations apart they are; that stays the same.)

hS

[Urwen]

Ah, but cousinness isn't reversible. The degree of cousin is based on how far back you have to go for a shared ancestor: first is a shared grandparent, second a shared Great-grandparent, etc. Maeglin's granddad was Fingolfin, who is Arwen's ancestor, but he's Arwen's great-great-great-granddad, hence fourth cousin from her side. (The remove is how many generations apart they are; that stays the same.)

hS


https://i.imgur.com/daLZSI8.png

[Huinesoron]

https://i.imgur.com/daLZSI8.png

So clearly they didn't know that. ;)

hS

[Huinesoron]

And I guess it's me?

At the time of the War of the Ring, Gimli has one known living cousin at zero removes - ie, just a first, second, third etc cousin. What degree of cousin is he?

hS

[Urwen]

Zeroth cousin?

[Urwen]

Never mind, it's 4th cousin.

Also, it's your turn in the Password thread. If you manage to include both Targlin and Zimraphel into it somehow, I'll love you forever. :D

[Huinesoron]

Never mind, it's 4th cousin.

Also, it's your turn in the Password thread. If you manage to include both Targlin and Zimraphel into it somehow, I'll love you forever. :D

Thorin III is indeed his fourth cousin; over to you.

I know it is; tomorrow, I think.

hS

[Urwen]

So who are the grumpy Elf's 1st cousins twice removed?

[Huinesoron]

So who are the grumpy Elf's 1st cousins twice removed?

Ha, this is a trick question: Thranduil's family tree isn't developed enough to know!

... all right, all right. I'm going to assume Maeglin? In which case we're looking for his grandfather's great-great grandchildren. As Eol doesn't have a known parent, that means Fingolfin's. So... Turgon is the only one of the High King's children whose line endured. Idril is his only child, and her grandchildren are Elrond and Elros.

(As for Thranduil: if my latest version of the Elmo family tree (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19307&highlight=oropher) is accepted, Thranduil's grandfather is an unrecorded son of Elmo, who was also the father of Amdir of Lorien. That makes Amroth Thranduil's first cousin - but Amroth has no children. So Thranduil definitely has no first cousins twice removed. ^_^)

hS

[Urwen]

No, not Thranduil or Maeglin's. If I meant Maeglin, I would have said 'naughty elf'. But you did mention the 'grumpy elf' in your reasoning, so think about it.

[Huinesoron]

No, not Thranduil or Maeglin's. If I meant Maeglin, I would have said 'naughty elf'. But you did mention the 'grumpy elf' in your reasoning, so think about it.

Well, the grumpiest non-Thranduil elf I mentioned was Eol... come to think of it, while looking up 'Glindur' for the Passwords, I think I saw a passing mention of Eol as cousin to Cel'n'Cur. So is the answer the Sons of Feanor?

(And if so, is there any more detail to that family tree? It would imply that Eol was first cousin to either Finwe or Mahtan...)

hS

[Urwen]

No. The Elf I had in mind was only grumpy in the movies. Specifically, FOTR movie.

[Huinesoron]

Also, you think Eol = Glindur? Eol??

LoLno. Glindur is most definitely not Eol.

No, no I do not. But for some weird and wacky reason, Eol has a tendency to show up in the same pages as this 'Glindur' chap. You'd almost think they were related or something.

hS

[Urwen]

No, no I do not. But for some weird and wacky reason, Eol has a tendency to show up in the same pages as this 'Glindur' chap. You'd almost think they were related or something.

hS


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/0d/7b/5a0d7bbd399ece2a70ade234abb11e96.jpg


Targlin, Morlin, Morleg, Glindur

[Huinesoron]

No. The Elf I had in mind was only grumpy in the movies. Specifically, FOTR movie.

Okay, so Agent Elrond. First cousin means grandparents' other grandkids. His grandparents are Tuor and Idril on the one hand (only had one kid, so not them), and Dior and Nim... loth? on the other (had three kids, two of whom died in the woods). So he didn't even have simple first cousins, let alone twice removed.

Except.

Except Elrond also has another parent: Maglor, who adopted him. His adoptive grandparents are Feanor and Nerdanel; that makes Celebrimbor his adoptive first cousin at no removes. But... as far as I know, that's the last of House Feanor.

So I still can't find anybody.

hS

[Urwen]

Oh, but first cousins twice-removed are different than first cousins. According to the chart I've found, first cousins twice removed are your great-great-great-grandfather's grandkids. So who's Elrond's great-great-great-grandfather? Once you know that, answering the question should be easy.

[Huinesoron]

Oh, but first cousins twice-removed are different than first cousins. According to the chart I've found, first cousins twice removed are your great-great-great-grandfather's grandkids. So who's Elrond's great-great-great-grandfather? Once you know that, answering the question should be easy.

Oh, Mandos take it, they count weirdly on the upper edges. That's entirely unfair and makes no sense besides. I knew I remembered there being something weird there, but convinced myself I'd made it up...

Okay. Checking the charts, it's Elrond's great-Great-grandparents we care about, of which he has up to 16. Working through his grandparents, they are:

-For Nimloth, the only one named is Galadhon. His other known grandkid is Celebrian.

-For Dior, his grandparents are:

--Thingol and Melian, who have no grandkids Dior.

--Barahir and Emeldir, ditto.

-For Tuor, his grandparents are:

--Galdor the Tall and Hareth of Dor Lomin; their other grandkids are Turin, you, and Nienor.

--Belegund, father of Rian. She's his only known child.

-Finally, for Idril, her known grandparents are Fingolfin and Anaire. Their other grandchildren are Maeglin and, according to the Silm, Gil-Galad.

Which makes a perfect set of six, for you: your four favourite Edain, plus Elrond's wife and boss, were all his first cousins twice removed.

hS

[Urwen]

My four favorite Edain?

Um....unless Glindur is an Edain, I only see three Edain in your explanation.....

Either way, you're up.

[Huinesoron]

My four favorite Edain?

Um....unless Glindur is an Edain, I only see three Edain in your explanation.....

Either way, you're up.

Of course he is! It's another name for Beren, son of Balin, son of Balrog, right? :D

A-ny-way: other than marriage, what is the relationship between Celeborn and Galadriel?

hS

[Urwen]

Of course he is! It's another name for Beren, son of Balin, son of Balrog, right? :D

A-ny-way: other than marriage, what is the relationship between Celeborn and Galadriel?

hS


Actually, it's another name of Morlin, son of Alvar, son of Melko.

And second cousins, I believe.

[Huinesoron]

And second cousins, I believe.

Correct; to you.

hS

[Urwen]

And since you mentioned Beren.....

Beren's grandfather's son's grandaughter is who?

[Huinesoron]

And since you mentioned Beren.....

Beren's grandfather's son's grandaughter is who?

First inclination was Rian & Morwen, who I know are Beren's cousins. Looking at the family tree... it seems to be Rian and Morwen.

Wait, though: Beren has two grandfathers, and his other one is named... Beren. So maybe you're sneakily asking about him! His paternal grandfather is Beldir, whose son is Belmir, grandfather of Emeldir Man-hearted. His maternal grandfather is Malach (son of Marach), whose son Magor has... no known granddaughters.

(Steward Beren of Gondor, interestingly has an unnamed grandfather, because his dad inherited the title from his cousin.)

So, three actual Edain for you this time. :)

hS

[Urwen]

You're on.

[Huinesoron]

Okeydokey, let's try this:

In the first seven generations of the House of Elros (ie, Elros himself and the six generations that followed him - so down to Ancalime's generation):

-How many people's names contain the names of various Valar?
-What is the relationship between the oldest and youngest of these?

hS

[Urwen]

Well....

Vardamir
Manwendil
Aulendil
Oromendil
Nessanie

That would be five. As for relationship, it would be great-great-great grandfather and great-great-great granddaughter.

[Huinesoron]

Well....

Vardamir
Manwendil
Aulendil
Oromendil
Nessanie

That would be five. As for relationship, it would be great-great-great grandfather and great-great-great granddaughter.

I count six, but I admit Vardilme is a borderline case. (I also want to count Cemendur as named after Yavanna Kementari, but that's too much of a stretch.) You're spot on about Vardamir and Nessanie's relationship, so back to you.

(But also, yikes those first few generations were obsessed.)

hS

[Urwen]

All right, something simple.....

Who is Elestirne's husband she grew estranged from?

[Huinesoron]

All right, something simple.....

Who is Elestirne's husband she grew estranged from?

Okay, first guess is that sounds like it could be a variant of Erendis, which would make the answer Aldarion. (Also, y'know, there's not that many estranged couples in M-e.)

... aaaand it was, but not actually as a variant. I wonder whether there was a bit of the old 'not Angles but angels' joke in there - "Alá Erendis, ono Elestirnë." (As a joke made by a Pope about Old English speakers, this ancient pun falls well within Tolkien's field of expertise, so I may even be right!)

hS

[Urwen]

Correct.

Also, y'know, there's not that many estranged couples in M-e.


Well, there is Feanor and Nerdanel, as well as Alvar and Isfin (albeit briefly). And then Feanor died and Alvar died and Isfin died, so I guess they don't count as estranged anymore.

[Galadriel55]

I am very slowly rereading The Sil in between tasks, and I am newly impressed with Nerdanel's skill in restraining and guiding Feanor. Much more impressed than I was on my first read at the ripe old age of 13.

Sorry about the tangent. She's just a very remarkable estranged wife.

[Huinesoron]

Well, there is Feanor and Nerdanel, as well as Alvar and Isfin (albeit briefly). And then Feanor died and Alvar died and Isfin died, so I guess they don't count as estranged anymore.

Not to mention Yavanna and Mr. "Nevertheless they will have need of wood" Aule... still, it was a nicely constrained list.

I am very slowly rereading The Sil in between tasks, and I am newly impressed with Nerdanel's skill in restraining and guiding Feanor. Much more impressed than I was on my first read at the ripe old age of 13.

Sorry about the tangent. She's just a very remarkable estranged wife.

As far as I'm concerned, this sort of tangent is fantastic. Like a lot of Tolkien's women, Nerdanel is a fascinating character who I wish had more written about her. Her Gateway article includes comments like "She was not considered among 'the fairest of her people'," and "the element nerd- in Nerdanel perhaps derives from nerdo ('large, strong man')," which paints an even more peculiar picture - along with the fact that she pretty firmly broke with Feanor at the point he was exiled and she said 'nah, I'm gonna go live with your hated stepmother'.

Speaking of whom...

How many female Elven descendants does Indis have?

hS

[Urwen]

Tolkien Gateway says eight.

[Huinesoron]

Tolkien Gateway says eight.

I didn't actually check the answer myself... ;) Aredhel and Idril, Galadriel, Celebrian, and Arwen, Finduilas... that's six by Silm-canon, but yes, Findis and Irime makes eight. :)

Huh, and Irime crossed the Ice with Fingolfin. Given that she was "generally known" as Lalwen, I wonder if Lal[aith Ur]wen was partially named in her honour? After Fingolfin's death, she would have been the Grand Old Lady of the Noldor in Middle-earth, and she seems to have lived in Hithlum, so it's not at all implausible.

Look, now I'm tangenting. ^_^ To you.

hS

[Urwen]

Huh, and Irime crossed the Ice with Fingolfin. Given that she was "generally known" as Lalwen, I wonder if Lal[aith Ur]wen was partially named in her honour? After Fingolfin's death, she would have been the Grand Old Lady of the Noldor in Middle-earth, and she seems to have lived in Hithlum, so it's not at all implausible.
hS

Nice.

And speaking of those two, what is the relation between them?

(And yes, they do have one via Turgon ^_^)

[Huinesoron]

Nice.

And speaking of those two, what is the relation between them?

(And yes, they do have one via Turgon ^_^)

Indeed they do! Lalwen is Lalaith's first cousin's great aunt by marriage, while Lalaith is Lalwen's grand-niece's husband's first cousin.

hS

[Urwen]

Correct.

[Huinesoron]

Almost all of Tolkien's family trees are exclusively among what Treebeard calls the Free Peoples, and the Eldar call the Incarnates or Mirröanwi (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Incarnate): Elves, Dwarves, Men, and Ents.

Name three (or more!) parent-child relationships which do not meet this description.

(For the purposes of this question, petty-dwarves, Hobbits, Druedain etc count as part of their ancestral races.)

hS

[Urwen]

Mim/Ibun, Sam/Elanor, Primula/Frodo.

Easy enough. ^_^

[Huinesoron]

Mim/Ibun, Sam/Elanor, Primula/Frodo.

Easy enough. ^_^

I'm guessing you wrote this before I put in my clarification (possibly it went up after you'd posted, though I didn't see your post when it went through). Hobbits and Petty-dwarves are genetically human and dwarvish, whatever they might think (and they're most definitely Rational Incarnates!).

hS

[Urwen]

Draugluin/Carcharoth, Galathilion/Celeborn, Celeborn/Nimloth.

(Oh, and also Ungoliant and Shelob, but they are more of an ancestor/descendant than parent/child)

How is that?

[Huinesoron]

Draugluin/Carcharoth, Galathilion/Celeborn, Celeborn/Nimloth.

(Oh, and also Ungoliant and Shelob, but they are more of an ancestor/descendant than parent/child)

How is that?

Perfect. I also had Lightfoot/Snowmane, and of course Melian/Luthien (only one of whom is an Incarnate - the Ainur don't count!). I'd completely missed Ungoliant/Shelob, who I think are mother and daughter, and only thought of Draugluin/Carcharoth after I'd posted.

I wanted to phrase the question more loosely, to allow Gwaihir & Landroval to appear as brothers, but that opened up the sibling ties amongst the Valar, so I didn't. :)

Back to you!

hS

[Urwen]

Another easy one.

Name Rodwen's uncles; both of them.

[Huinesoron]

Another easy one.

Name Rodwen's uncles; both of them.

Easy: Finwë and Finwë.

Obviously neither of those are Finwë (father of Finwë, Finwë, and Finwë); I mean Finwë the father of seven lesser Finwës (from Third Finwë to Last Finwë), and Finwë the father of no Finwës at all (though he did wind up as two Finwës himself).

The Shibboleth of Feanor is great fun, but the House of Finwë naming conventions were daft as all get out.

hS

[Urwen]

Easy: Finwë and Finwë.

Obviously neither of those are Finwë (father of Finwë, Finwë, and Finwë); I mean Finwë the father of seven lesser Finwës (from Third Finwë to Last Finwë), and Finwë the father of no Finwës at all (though he did wind up as two Finwës himself).

The Shibboleth of Feanor is great fun, but the House of Finwë naming conventions were daft as all get out.

hS

*chortles*

[Huinesoron]

So go on then: how many times does the name 'Finwë' appear in the family tree of House Finwë, assuming you give both Mother and Father-names of everyone in Quenya (where known)?

hS

[Urwen]

Eleven times?

[Huinesoron]

Eleven times?

Nope, it's more than that.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Nope, it's more than that.

hS

Ooh, no, wait... technically, as the question was asked, this answer is correct.

Finwe Nolofinwe and Finwe Arafinwe added those extra Finwes themselves, so they're not in their Father-names. Well done. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Ooh, no, wait... technically, as the question was asked, this answer is correct.

Finwe Nolofinwe and Finwe Arafinwe added those extra Finwes themselves, so they're not in their Father-names. Well done. :)

hS


Someone somewhere at some point said that if the eldest followed those traditions, his Sindarin name would have been Fincurfin..... :D

[Urwen]

Which two individuals have the largest number of recorded children?

[Huinesoron]

Which two individuals have the largest number of recorded children?

How tricksy are you being? Because the tricksy answers are Iluvatar and Aule, who between them have every Elf, Man, and Dwarf in the world.

Non-tricksy... going to throw out a guess at Mistress Rose and Sam-dad.

hS

[Urwen]

Non-tricksy... going to throw out a guess at Mistress Rose and Sam-dad.
hS

Yeah. I had Sam and Feanor in mind, but I forgot Rosie.

Back to you.

[Huinesoron]

Yeah. I had Sam and Feanor in mind, but I forgot Rosie.

Back to you.

Oh, well then: after Sam and Rosie, which couple had the next-most children? It's not Feanor and Nerdanel.

hS

[Urwen]

If it's some hobbit, I won't be bothered. It's impossible to suss out which one was the most virile. :eek:

[Huinesoron]

If it's some hobbit, I won't be bothered. It's impossible to suss out which one was the most virile. :eek:

I mean, it's a pretty famous one. I would call him superlative, except that both Sam and Bilbo beat him.

hS

[Urwen]

Gerontius and Adamanta, choo-choo.

[Urwen]

Okay, so the three most virile couples are

1. Sam and Rosie
2. Gerontius and Adamanta
3. Feanor and Nerdanel

That is, unless you can find someone else who is more virile than Feanor/Nerdanel and less virile than Gerontius/Adamanta?

[Urwen]

So am I correct?

[Huinesoron]

Gerontius and Adamanta, choo-choo.

Yep, that's the ones.

Okay, so the three most virile couples are

1. Sam and Rosie
2. Gerontius and Adamanta
3. Feanor and Nerdanel

That is, unless you can find someone else who is more virile than Feanor/Nerdanel and less virile than Gerontius/Adamanta?

Oh, now you've got me hunting... it looks like Gorbadoc Brandybuck had seven kids with Mirabella Took (daughter of Gerontius), matching Feanor. There's at least one Hobbit family with six, but after that you're down to endless sets of five kids.

hS

[Urwen]

Who is Istarnie's grandson?

[Huinesoron]

Who is Istarnie's grandson?

Okay, that's a female name derived from 'wisdom' (I think that's what Istar comes from). I'm gonna guess... Nerdanel, which would make her grandson Celebrimbor.

Okay, it's 'knowledge', not 'wisdom', but my answer still stands. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Yeah.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, okay: a lot of Mortals in Middle-earth have some proportion of immortal heritage. Of the women who were accounted Mortal from birth to death, which has the highest proportion of Immortal in her?

hS

[Galadriel55]

Okay, a bit challenging to do without being able to sit down and draw things out, but here goes.

Thinking of the three marriages between Elves and Men and their female descendents, the answer that comes to mind is Aragorn's unnamed daughters, as they stand closest to such a marriage. Elwing would have a higher proportion but she is immortal herself. However, I don't even know where to start when counting Aragorn's daughters' Immortal. Do we assume Arwen to be full Elf, as she was one before meeting Aragorn, or Half-Elven by virtue of Elrond's heritage? Besides, Aragorn himself has an uncountable proportion of Immortal, as his ancestors between Elros and himself intermarried with distant cousins who also were of Luthien's line. Arathorn and Gilraen themselves both claimed descent from Elros. So depending on how you count everything, these women may have as much as 1/2+(uncountable but minute) Immortal, or as little as 13/32 + (same uncountable minute amount).



* Arwen's breakdown:
Elwing is 3/4 Immortal
Earendil is 1/2 Immortal
Elrond is thus 5/8 Immortal
Celebrian is Full Elven
Making Arwen 13/16 Immortal


How did I do without pen or paper to do the counting?

[Huinesoron]

How did I do without pen or paper to do the counting?

I deliberately avoided saying 'immortal blood', but that was what I was thinking, so 13/32+ is the number by my reckoning. I think you're right that they take the title: their main competition would be Tindomiel, daughter of Elros, but she's (5/8 + 0/8 = ) 10/32 immortal.

... no, wait, I'm wrong. There is a named, presumptively-mortal woman with a higher Immortal fraction (exactly 1/2, as it happens), who holds the distinction of being the only fully mortal daughter of a full Elf and a Man.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Gilmith?

[Huinesoron]

Gilmith?

Gilmith, daughter of Imrazor The Numenorean(TM) and Mithrellas, is who I was thinking of. I guess her name means 'Grey Star', which is actually kind of cool.

Over to you. :)

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Oh no! What have I done? I don't know how to play this game!

[Huinesoron]

Oh no! What have I done? I don't know how to play this game!

:D Don't worry, nor do I... I've been playing on the basis of 'any family tree-related questions are okay'. That's anything from 'who is this relation to X', to 'what is the relationship between X and Y', to this sort of 'who is the most/least something or other'. It's been a wild ride...

hS

[Urwen]

Okay, it's been days and Pervinca didn't post a new clue, so in the interest of continuing...

What relation do Eomer, Eowyn and Maeglin have towards their respective Kings (hint: it's the same one.)

(Why do I include Maeglin in everything? Because I can. :p)

[Huinesoron]

Okay, it's been days and Pervinca didn't post a new clue, so in the interest of continuing...

What relation do Eomer, Eowyn and Maeglin have towards their respective Kings (hint: it's the same one.)

(Why do I include Maeglin in everything? Because I can. :p)

Ooh, I know this one! They're all madly in love with their king's child. (This is why Eowyn is so sad all the time - not only was she besotted with her dead cousin, she also knew he preferred Eomer. Hence Theodred's last words: ""Let me lie here to protect the Fords, until Eomer arrives.")

Oh, and I suppose their kings are all their uncles. There's that, too.

hS

[Urwen]

Ooh, I know this one! They're all madly in love with their king's child. (This is why Eowyn is so sad all the time - not only was she besotted with her dead cousin, she also knew he preferred Eomer. Hence Theodred's last words: ""Let me lie here to protect the Fords, until Eomer arrives.")

Oh, and I suppose their kings are all their uncles. There's that, too.

hS

*laughs madly*

(Correct.)

[Huinesoron]

Right, I wanted to ask this about Aragorn, but as far as I can tell the answer is just "hahaha no," so:

Who is Arwen's closest named cousin whose lifespan overlaps with hers?

hS

[Urwen]

That requires extensive math, so I'll just say both halves of 'Fallen Banners' ship and be done with it.

[Galadriel55]

Who is Arwen's closest named cousin whose lifespan overlaps with hers?

On the Elvish side, I believe the last of the family is dead before the end of the Second Age, with the deaths of Celebrimbor and Gil-Galad. Arwen was born after the start of the TA. So looking therefore at the human side of the lineage, Arwen's cousin-many-times-removed Valandil was alive when she was born.

[Huinesoron]

I'm not sure what the 'Fallen Banners' ship is, but I do know you're both wrong. She reportedly has a living first cousin twice removed.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I'm not sure what the 'Fallen Banners' ship is, but I do know you're both wrong. She reportedly has a living first cousin twice removed.

hS

...You aren't talking about Finrod reborn?

[Urwen]

I'm not sure what the 'Fallen Banners' ship is, but I do know you're both wrong. She reportedly has a living first cousin twice removed.

hS

If you don't know what Fallen Banners is, then how do you know I'm wrong?

[Huinesoron]

...You aren't talking about Finrod reborn?

I like that (and missed it), but I think he's her great-uncle.

If you don't know what Fallen Banners is, then how do you know I'm wrong?

Because you said 'both halves', and this closest cousin is a singleton.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I first posted about Elwing being related to Celeborn. Then I deleted it, cause I thought, that's silly, Elwing is Arwen's grandmother. And now I'm posting the answer again, because given Elven family trees one can be both a grandma and a cousin. :D


Edit: tried to check the same for Earendil going through Galadriel, but that takes too many steps I think.

[Galadriel55]

I like that (and missed it), but I think he's her great-uncle.

Yes he is. Also, "lifespan" would then also be a stretch in his case.


But here is another oddball I haven't considered initially: Ar-Pharazon. He remains in a sort of deathless state, suspended by Eru, right? It would take quite a bit of genealogy checking to say for certain, but just chronology-wise he is a closer cousin than Valandil.

[Urwen]

I like that (and missed it), but I think he's her great-uncle.



Because you said 'both halves', and this closest cousin is a singleton.

hS


Well, they are singletons too. Fallen Banners is a fan couple, not a canonical one.

[Huinesoron]

Elwing: I think she'd be Arwen's second cousin? They're both great-granddaughters of Galadhon. But I think you generally take only the closest relationship, right? Otherwise, the Hobbits - whooo-ee!

According to the coefficient of relationship (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_relationship) page, second cousin and first cousin twice removed are identically close (3.125%). So Elwing would be a viable answer - were she not her great granny.

Pharazon is also an interesting catch, but still very distant by comparison.

Fallen Banners: sure, but I can only find one person whose closest relationship to Arwen is at the first cousin twice removed level. It doesn't matter who you ship them with, that person would be more distant. Or dead.

hS

[Urwen]

Elwing: I think she'd be Arwen's second cousin? They're both great-granddaughters of Galadhon. But I think you generally take only the closest relationship, right? Otherwise, the Hobbits - whooo-ee!

According to the coefficient of relationship (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_relationship) page, second cousin and first cousin twice removed are identically close (3.125%). So Elwing would be a viable answer - were she not her great granny.

Pharazon is also an interesting catch, but still very distant by comparison.

Fallen Banners: sure, but I can only find one person whose closest relationship to Arwen is at the first cousin twice removed level. It doesn't matter who you ship them with, that person would be more distant. Or dead.

hS


But if we treat them as separate people, rather than a ship, then one of them could work as an answer...

[Galadriel55]

*facepalm*

Maglor!

[Urwen]

So it's one of Elros or Elrond's great-grandchildren. The closest I can come is Tar-Elendil...

[Huinesoron]

*facepalm*

Maglor!

Maglor! There he is. Correct, over to you.

So it's one of Elros or Elrond's great-grandchildren. The closest I can come is Tar-Elendil...

So I apologise for being wrong before: cousin-Ness is indeed reciprocal. So Arwen is the great-grandchild (of Finarfin, in this case).

hS

[Urwen]

And I was gonna say Maeglin/Celebrimbor too. :o

[Galadriel55]

Maglor! There he is. Correct, over to you.

So much for me going "All Feanorians are dead! Nothing to be gained there!" :rolleyes:

I get confused with family tree relationship terms in English, because they are different (and make so much more sense to me!) in Russian. For instance, in Russian Maglor would be Arwen's secondary great-uncle. I had to draw out the family tree to see where the "cousin" relationship actually happens.


A quick one, with a bit of an opposite twist to this thread:

Who *forfeited* a family for a promise not yet made?

[Urwen]

Tar-Aldarion, when he went off to skeddaddle with Sauron's enemies in Middle Earth? :D

[Galadriel55]

Tar-Aldarion, when he went off to skeddaddle with Sauron's enemies in Middle Earth? :D

Not the answer I am looking for.

[Urwen]

You would usually give a small hint if we explained our reasoning. :(

Hmmm...Feanor maybe?

[Urwen]

Hey, hey. I think I have it. Is it mayhaps Finrod Felagund, whose gift of foresight convinced him not to marry or have a son because of his eventual oath to Barahir and his descendants? (And his love for Amarie to an extent)

[Galadriel55]

Hey, hey. I think I have it. Is it mayhaps Finrod Felagund, whose gift of foresight convinced him not to marry or have a son because of his eventual oath to Barahir and his descendants? (And his love for Amarie to an extent)

Indeed. I feel like giving up a chance for love and family is a lot more heroic if it's indeed done in foresight of an oath that you must be free to fulfill, rather than because your sweetheart is across the Belegaer. But we sweep that under the rug and still love our valiant Finrod. :p

[Urwen]

I just came up with a fun one.

Whose father is also their father-in-law?

[Urwen]

I know you were around, people, and there are few outstanding threads that need continuing, so please don't let them die... :(

[Huinesoron]

I know you were around, people, and there are few outstanding threads that need continuing, so please don't let them die... :(

Do you want me to post "no idea" on all three threads? Because I've got no idea. :p I'd rather leave the space for other people to try and answer.

Oh, except this one: Turin & Nienor.

hS

[Urwen]

I just don't want those threads to end up locked by admins because they weren't posted in for more than six years. Do you want that to happen? Do you?! >.>

[Huinesoron]

I just don't want those threads to end up locked by admins because they weren't posted in for more than six years. Do you want that to happen? Do you?! >.>

Urwen, if I could fast-forward six years from this moment, even at the price of a couple of locked threads, I would do so in a [i]heartbeat[/b].

hS

[Urwen]

These threads are one of the few means I have to stave off my boredom, especially during this pandemic, and I will not let them be locked and shunted aside, ever. Do you understand?

[Urwen]

Anyway, it was Turin (and Nienor).

[Huinesoron]

Cool. So:

Two kings lost two sons in two wars, and 2+2+2 is the number from the first to the second. Where did they rule?

hS

[Urwen]

Arnor and Gondor.

[Huinesoron]

Arnor and Gondor.

Incorrect.

hS

[Urwen]

Just Gondor?

[Huinesoron]

Just Gondor?

Also incorrect.

It's a lot harder to give appropriate levels of hint if you don't offer any reasoning. (For instance, if your reasoning was "the two kings are the Sun and the Moon", I'd offer a different amount of help than if you said "are Isildur and Aragorn".)

hS

[Urwen]

Well, it's not Sun and Moon. Even I know thar much.

[Urwen]

So there are King's of the Noldor, Kings of Sindar, Kings of Numenor, Kings of Arnor and Gondor, Kings of Rohan, Kings of Moria...

And I know for a fact that Dior lost two sons, literally, in the woods. Now his descendants were

- Elwing
- Elrond & Elros

If we go through Elrond line, then we have

- Elladan and Elrohir, who have no recorded children.
- Arwen, who has one son, which still isn't enough for six steps.

If we go by Elros, we have

- Vardamir
- Amandil
- Elendil
- Meneldur, who only had one son. So that line of thinking is wrong.

[Urwen]

Okay, I've ruled out Kings of Noldor (because there aren't six steps between them), Kings of Moria (because only few of those had multiple sons) and Kings of Numenor (because of those who had two sons, their sons didn't die in war).

And since you said no to Kings of Gondor and Arnor, this leaves Kings of Rohan.

[Huinesoron]

I will accept process of elimination as a valid method. Correct, they ruled in Rohan.

Specifically, Helm Hammerhand lost his sons Haleth and Hama in the Long Winter; four more kings ruled Rohan (not counting Wulf the Usurper), and then King Folca's twin sons Folcred and Fastred were slain defending the crossings of Poros against the Haradrim. So six kings in all, counting both of them.

Over to you!

hS

[Urwen]

Okay, so which married couples are also blood-related?

(And yes, the Celeborn/Galadriel thing inspired me...)

[Galadriel55]

...How much will you hate me for this answer?...

Okay, so which married couples are also blood-related?

Turin and Nienor. :smokin:

[Urwen]

...How much will you hate me for this answer?...



Turin and Nienor. :smokin:


Well, yea, but they aren't the only ones...

[Huinesoron]

Ooh! Aragorn and Arwen. :D Arvedui and Firiel are even closer, they're both descendants of Elendil.

For relatively close blood-ties, Dior and Nimloth share an (unnamed) set of great-grandparents. I guess Elrond and Celebrian are related, too - Nimloth is Elrond's grandmother, and Celebrian's first cousin. Galadriel and Celeborn you mentioned - their grandparents are siblings (Olwe and Elmo).

Barahir and Emeldir are both fifth-generation descendents of Beor; theyr're the only example I can find among the Edain, though I wouldn't be surprised if there were others.

Sam and Rosie are both four generations down from Holman the Greenhanded, and it looks like their siblings Marigold and Tolman (respectively) got married as well. Merry's wife Estella Bolger is, like him, a great-great-grandchild of the Old Took.

And... crikey. It's a bit hard to trace, but Frodo's parents Drogo and Primula were both great-grandchildren of Gundahar Bolger and Dina Diggle.

... and of course, Tar-Miriel and Pharazon are first cousins, aren't they? I bet that's the closest (other than Nathan and Nina or whatever their names are).

hS

[Urwen]

Ooh! Aragorn and Arwen. :D Arvedui and Firiel are even closer, they're both descendants of Elendil.

For relatively close blood-ties, Dior and Nimloth share an (unnamed) set of great-grandparents. I guess Elrond and Celebrian are related, too - Nimloth is Elrond's grandmother, and Celebrian's first cousin. Galadriel and Celeborn you mentioned - their grandparents are siblings (Olwe and Elmo).

Barahir and Emeldir are both fifth-generation descendents of Beor; theyr're the only example I can find among the Edain, though I wouldn't be surprised if there were others.

Sam and Rosie are both four generations down from Holman the Greenhanded, and it looks like their siblings Marigold and Tolman (respectively) got married as well. Merry's wife Estella Bolger is, like him, a great-great-grandchild of the Old Took.

And... crikey. It's a bit hard to trace, but Frodo's parents Drogo and Primula were both great-grandchildren of Gundahar Bolger and Dina Diggle.

... and of course, Tar-Miriel and Pharazon are first cousins, aren't they? I bet that's the closest (other than Nathan and Nina or whatever their names are).

hS


Nathan and Nina? Never heard of those...

[Huinesoron]

Nathan and Nina? Never heard of those...

Nathan and Nina, Neithan and Niniel, same difference. You already said them though.

hS

[Urwen]

Well then, you're up.

[Huinesoron]

So which one(s) were you thinking of?

Um... name the one unambiguously evil parent/child family.
hS

[Galadriel55]

Um... name the one unambiguously evil parent/child family.

Umm... Ungoliant and Shelob? :D

[Huinesoron]

Umm... Ungoliant and Shelob? :D

...

Name the other unambigously blah blah you know the question.

(Can't believe I missed them.)

Oh stars and water, I've just thought of a third... fine, get three and I'll hand it over. :D

hS

[Urwen]

Draugluin and Carcharoth.


(Also Eol and Morleg, if you wanna count them as 'evil')

[Urwen]

Also Ar-Gimilzor and Phary, as well as other Numerorean father-son duos after the Rebellion

[Galadriel55]

Draugluin and Carcharoth, though I can't remember if they are actually a father/son pair or just "forefather"/descendant.

Edit: crossed with Urwen with the same idea.

[Huinesoron]

Draugluin and Carcharoth was my third; I think Draugluin is his 'sire' somewhere. But:

(Also Eol and Morleg, if you wanna count them as 'evil')

Also Ar-Gimilzor and Phary, as well as other Numerorean father-son duos after the Rebellion

Neither of those are unambiguously evil. Pharazon comes closest, with the human-sacrifice thing, but his dad was just a product of his times.

Tie breaker? You've not found the father/son pair I was, er... originally thinking of.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Ulfang and his Ul-sons? I'm not sure even they are unambiguously evil though. The Nirnaeth is sort of said to be their fault, though, so perhaps they deserve the brand.

[Huinesoron]

Ulfang and his Ul-sons? I'm not sure even they are unambiguously evil though. The Nirnaeth is sort of said to be their fault, though, so perhaps they deserve the brand.

Um... I'll accept that; they were willing Morgoth-followers. I was actually thinking of Azog and Bolg. :D Over to you.

hS

[Urwen]

(Also, you're up in the Riddle thread)

[Galadriel55]

A simple one, I think, in rather reverse-theme fashion.

Which two characters are speculated to be related, but are actually not so?

[Urwen]

Oh, I know! It's Morgoth and the random baby that he adopted, right?

Such a nice, upstanding fellow...going around adopting babies...

And personally, I speculate that Feanor and Gothmog are related...

[Galadriel55]

Oh, I know! It's Morgoth and the random baby that he adopted, right?

Such a nice, upstanding fellow...going around adopting babies...

I think you're still stuck on the evil parent/child question. :p

And personally, I speculate that Feanor and Gothmog are related...

You might do so, but I don't think there is such documented speculation in the actual text. :smokin:

[Urwen]

The only speculation inside the books is the Primula/Drogo deal, but that's not what it is about. Unless you count appendices?

[Huinesoron]

The only speculation inside the books is the Primula/Drogo deal, but that's not what it is about. Unless you count appendices?

Primula and Drogo were related - they shared a great-grandparent. Didn't know it was in the text of the book though (I should've checked rather than tracing family trees!).

The question makes me think of the "fairy wife" Took legend, but I don't think it's specific enough. Tolkien at one point considered the possibility of Eol being part-Noldor, which would make him distantly related to Aredhel, but it's not an in-universe speculation.

It's not Finrod and Gildor Inglorion ("Son of Inglor" = Finrod), is it?

hS

[Urwen]

Primula and Drogo were related - they shared a great-grandparent. Didn't know it was in the text of the book though (I should've checked rather than tracing family trees!).



That's because it wasn't. The speculation was about the drowning.

[Galadriel55]

The speculation comes from the main texts. You don't need to dig into appendices or HOME or such. For "Inglorion", it would still be the audiience speculating about the relationship to Finrod. This speculation is in the text - and as an audience, we know it to be entirely wrong. And Urwen, the speculation is about two characters being related, not about anything they did.

[Urwen]

I suspect it comes from LOTR, so time to start digging.

[Urwen]

Okay, so I found this:

'It is true all the same,' replied Gandalf. 'About their origins, at any rate, I know more than hobbits do themselves. And even Bilbo's story suggests the kinship. There was a great deal in the background of their minds and memories that was very similar. They understood one another remarkably well, very much better than a hobbit would understand, say, a Dwarf, or an Orc, or even an Elf. Think of the riddles they both knew, for one thing.'


I might be grasping at straws, though, but I won't stop trying.

[Huinesoron]

Is it Bilbo and the rabbits Gollum catches? The trolls and eagles certainly think he is one... :D

I feel like the 'speculation' is likely quite insulting, and possibly relating to an animal. Sort of like Treebeard saying that he thought Merry and Pip were little Orcs, but again he doesn't get specific.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Okay, so I found this:

I might be grasping at straws, though, but I won't stop trying.

But we actually trust Gandalf's assessment that Gollum's people were likely related to hobbits. So no.

Is it Bilbo and the rabbits Gollum catches? The trolls and eagles certainly think he is one... :D

I feel like the 'speculation' is likely quite insulting, and possibly relating to an animal. Sort of like Treebeard saying that he thought Merry and Pip were little Orcs, but again he doesn't get specific.

hS

These are all very good thoughts that I haven't thought of. :D No, the instance I have in mind is actually complimentary, and is about two specific characters.

[Urwen]

I thought about Finduilas' statement about Turin and Beren being kinsmen, but that one is also true...

[Galadriel55]

I thought about Finduilas' statement about Turin and Beren being kinsmen, but that one is also true...

Yes, it is true. Therefore, it is wrong. :D

[Urwen]

There was that one instance where...


Wait a minute, I think I may know the answer... :D

[Urwen]

Except there is no way for that to be possible, not even as a mere speculation

[Galadriel55]

Except there is no way for that to be possible, not even as a mere speculation

You know, it is really helpful when you post so clearly. Then I can tell you for sure whether you're on the right track, and you will know for sure whether you're right or wrong.

Besides, did I not tell you that the we the audience KNOW this speculation is incorrect? You are looking for impossible suggestions!

[Urwen]

Well, there is that instance where Theoden and Fingolfin were compared to Orome...