Family Tree Trivia

[Urwen]

But no one in the books went 'Oh, they remind me of Orome, they must be related to him!' or anything similar

[Galadriel55]

But no one in the books went 'Oh, they remind me of Orome, they must be related to him!' or anything similar

Right. You are looking for an instance that's not merely a comparison, but a semi-serious suggestion of familial relation. However, the made-up example here is exactly the kind of thing you need.


To help you out, it is NOT a Sil/other First Age event.

[Urwen]

Right. You are looking for an instance that's not merely a comparison, but a semi-serious suggestion of familial relation. However, the made-up example here is exactly the kind of thing you need.

So you're saying that someone said/thought 'you remind me of X, are you related' to someone else?

[Galadriel55]

So you're saying that someone said/thought 'you remind me of X, are you related' to someone else?

Different grammar, similar concept. X reminded someone of Y, and prompted a semi-serious suggestion of familial relation.

[Urwen]

Apart from Turin/Beren comparison, I can't recall any other such instance without re-reading the books...

[Galadriel55]

Apart from Turin/Beren comparison, I can't recall any other such instance without re-reading the books...

Okay. How about I give a chance for others to give it a try, and if there is no luck in a couple days, I will point you in a more specific direction.

[Urwen]

Okay, but I am allowed to research in the interim, right?

[Galadriel55]

Okay, but I am allowed to research in the interim, right?

Absolutely! Guess away.

[Urwen]

Also, just a reminder that you're up in riddle thread.

[Galadriel55]

Also, just a reminder that you're up in riddle thread.

So you said. Be patient please, there will be one within a few days, and if not I will pass the turn over.

[Urwen]

One more clarification: is it the exact quote which says 'X reminds me of Y', verbatim?

[Galadriel55]

One more clarification: is it the exact quote which says 'X reminds me of Y', verbatim?

Verbatim? No. Not those exact words. But their meaning, yes.

[Urwen]

Verbatim? No. Not those exact words. But their meaning, yes.


But it is a quote? Not thoughts or monologue?

[Galadriel55]

But it is a quote? Not thoughts or monologue?

What difference does it make? I told you, I will have plenty of hints coming if in a day or two there is no success from you or someone else, but let's not do 20 Questions please.

[Urwen]

What difference does it make? I told you, I will have plenty of hints coming if in a day or two there is no success from you or someone else, but let's not do 20 Questions please.


You said 'in a couple of days'. That could mean five or six days too, for all I know...

[Galadriel55]

You said 'in a couple of days'. That could mean five or six days too, for all I know...

No, I mean a couple days, as in 1-2. In any case, it definitely doesn't mean "a couple hours". Please have some patience while looking for this textual reference. Remember that it doesn't all have to be book digging, if you fall upon the right association you could very well bring it up from memory.

[Urwen]

No, I mean a couple days, as in 1-2. In any case, it definitely doesn't mean "a couple hours". Please have some patience while looking for this textual reference. Remember that it doesn't all have to be book digging, if you fall upon the right association you could very well bring it up from memory.

My memory is a terrible thing to behold...

Though I have possible candidates for X, like Pippin or Faramir...

[Galadriel55]

My memory is a terrible thing to behold...

Though I have possible candidates for X, like Pippin or Faramir...

By X do you mean one of the two characters who are suggested to be related? I can answer that fairly, I think. Neither Pippin nor Faramir is the subject of that speculation.

[Urwen]

*quietly closes her ROTK window*

[Urwen]

Well, it's been a day, so...do you wanna give hints now or wait one more day?

[Morsul the Dark]

I can’t think of an exact moment this type of phrase would come up but there’s lots of references to Gandalf and Saruman looking very much alike.

[Galadriel55]

Gandalf and Saruman are not the right pair, though they do look alike.


Some hints, and more to come if needed.
1. This quote is from LOTR.
2. The speculation is done by a hobbit, about two non-hobbits.

[Urwen]

Maybe Pippin, about Beregond and Faramir, maybe?


(Also, LOTR has three books)

[Galadriel55]

Maybe Pippin, about Beregond and Faramir, maybe?

Beregond and Faramir are not the right pair.

Keep in mind too that there is a passage that has the speculation in it very explicitly. I cannot recall from memory, but I don't believe Pippin ever suggests Beregond and Faramir are related.

[Urwen]

Neither can I. LOTR has three books, and each book is split into two more books...

[Galadriel55]

Neither can I. LOTR has three books, and each book is split into two more books...

Well, and all of the legendarium is many more books than that, shall we count how many you now don't have to consider?

All of the characters involved are major characters (ie not some obscure Brandibuff Bobbins at Bilbo's party or something like that). I will tell you that this speculation is said out loud, not just thought in the narration. Said by a hobbit, about two non-hobbits (also major characters).

And if I give you any more info right now, in return I would be asking for you to quote the exact passage instead of just paraphrasing the event.

[Urwen]

Okay. I will give the others until morning to make some guesses before I start guessing in earnest.

[Morsul the Dark]

There’s something rattling around in my head so they’re mistaken for kin... I feel like Faramir is compared to Gandalf at some point but I don’t think it amounts to thinking kinship.

But something else. Aragorn and one of the men of Gondor Boromir? At Rivendell? By frodo

[Galadriel55]

There’s something rattling around in my head so they’re mistaken for kin... I feel like Faramir is compared to Gandalf at some point but I don’t think it amounts to thinking kinship.

Sam tells Faramir at Henneth Annun that he reminds him of Gandalf, but I do not believe he ever implies kinship.

But something else. Aragorn and one of the men of Gondor Boromir? At Rivendell? By frodo

They are said to look alike on more than one occasion, I think, but again I can't recall any instance of implied kinship. It should go without saying, but if you provide a quote that proves me wrong, I would accept it as an alternative answer.


I suppose to make you focus less on all the people who look alike - these two don't actually look alike. Their physical appearances are described quite differently.

[Morsul the Dark]

That’s good to know, I don’t think I’ll have the answer I’m more brainstorming and hoping it sparks the answer in someone else’s mind.

[Huinesoron]

This is a really good one. I find it fascinating that you've got such a specific spoken quote in mind, and yet none of us can remember it existing.

I shall have to go digging. (Wonder how fast I can reread all of LOTR...)

hS

[Urwen]

Found it.

Pippin remained behind. 'Was there ever any one like him?' he said. 'Except Gandalf, of course. I think they must be related.

Aragorn and Gandalf.

[Galadriel55]

There you go. :)

[Galadriel55]

This is a really good one. I find it fascinating that you've got such a specific spoken quote in mind, and yet none of us can remember it existing.

You know, I wonder if it has anything to do with the mindset in which we read it. As a post-Silm read, that quote slips your mind like a silly hobbit inanity, typical Pippin. But the pre-Silm me was fascinated with it, because I was much closer to Pippin's level of knowledge and it seemed a legitimate proposal. I mean, we barely know anything about who Gandalf is just from the LOTR texts! I spent hours wondering who he could be, and what makes a wizard.

So this made me realize something too. Though The Sil and LOTR interact a lot, for them to keep their own magic they must also be separated from each other every now and again. Reading The Sil with the eyes of LOTR takes away from the grandiosity and the desperation, and reading LOTR with the eyes of The Sil takes away from the magic and the mystery.

Though, just to be sure, I did skim The Sil for mentions of Gandalf just to make sure he wasn't related to Melian. While they are said to haunt Lorien together, I didn't see anything that implied brother/sister.

Sorry, that was a bit of a tangential ramble. Back to you, Urwen.

[Morsul the Dark]

Found it.



Aragorn and Gandalf.

Of Course! I knew I was circling it but couldn’t quite get there well done!

[Urwen]

A simpler one, maybe.


Which two family members' actions lead to the downfall of two separate settlements?

[Galadriel55]

Which two family members' actions lead to the downfall of two separate settlements?

I will start with the simple guesses. Maedhros and Maglor? Among other things destroyed both Doriath and the Havens at the Mouths of Sirion.

[Urwen]

I will start with the simple guesses. Maedhros and Maglor? Among other things destroyed both Doriath and the Havens at the Mouths of Sirion.


Not who I was thinking of.

[Huinesoron]

A simpler one, maybe.

Which two family members' actions lead to the downfall of two separate settlements?

Hurin and Turin? Turin brought down Nargothrond, while Hurin played off the wreckage left by Turin to finish off the Haladin town.

hS

[Urwen]

Hurin and Turin? Turin brought down Nargothrond, while Hurin played off the wreckage left by Turin to finish off the Haladin town.

hS


Well, you got the right pair, so have at it.

[Galadriel55]

What did Hurin do to the Haladin town? :confused:

[Urwen]

What did Hurin do to the Haladin town? :confused:


Actually, I had him enabling the destruction of Doriath via Nauglamir in mind.

[Galadriel55]

Actually, I had him enabling the destruction of Doriath via Nauglamir in mind.

Not the downfall of Gondolin? I guess he's only tangentially responsible for either.

[Urwen]

Not the downfall of Gondolin? I guess he's only tangentially responsible for either.


Gondolin's downfall was caused by Morleg and Morgoth.

[Huinesoron]

What did Hurin do to the Haladin town? :confused:

Showed up, sparked off an insurrection, watched it burn and then wandered off, as I recall.

Will think of a puzzle.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Showed up, sparked off an insurrection, watched it burn and then wandered off, as I recall.

Is that UT? The Narn? In Sil/COH he just buries Morwen and wanders off. That's why I was confused about it.

[Urwen]

Is that UT? The Narn? In Sil/COH he just buries Morwen and wanders off. That's why I was confused about it.


It's from Wanderings of Hurin.

[Huinesoron]

It's from Wanderings of Hurin.

Which I really thought had made it into CoH, but apparently it's still only found in HoME XI.

Apparently after Hurin was set free, he wandered as follows:

-To Hithlum, which he left entirely at peace under the iron fist of Lorgan the Eastron.

-To the Dry River, where he betrayed Gondolin's location by yelling at clouds.

-To the Stone of the Hapless, where he refused to tell Morwen anything about their kids despite her being literally dying at the time.

-To Brethil, where he assaulted the Chieftain for being slightly rude, was arrested, and called for insurrection against the Chieftain at his trial. All the claimants are killed, Obel Halad is burnt, and the Haladin are basically destroyed as a people.

- And then he popped down to Nargothrond, murdered Mim, stole a bunch of treasure cursed by both dragon and dwarf, and took it to Doriath to spite Thingol for not chaining up his family until they died of old age.

Post-bondage Hurin wasn't a great person to be around, is what I'm saying.

~

Here you go:

Who learned twice of a kinsman's death, once from a dream and once from a legend?

hS

[Galadriel55]

Who learned twice of a kinsman's death, once from a dream and once from a legend?

I really want to say Faramir, but I'm not actually sure his encounters with Boromir's boat and broken horn qualify. My somewhat vague memory tells me he didn't dream of the boat but was at most having a waking vision, if not seeing the real thing. But he did hear the horn blow, and knew about the broken pieces.

[Huinesoron]

I really want to say Faramir, but I'm not actually sure his encounters with Boromir's boat and broken horn qualify. My somewhat vague memory tells me he didn't dream of the boat but was at most having a waking vision, if not seeing the real thing. But he did hear the horn blow, and knew about the broken pieces.

I missed this! Yes, this is quite correct. I didn't check the books, but my memory is that he first found out through a dream or vision, and then from one of those mythical Halflings of northern legend. :)

Over to you.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I will attempt the dreaded genealogy, no direct quotes or speculated kinship this time. :p


My first-cousin-once-removed-in-law and I are both known for similar encounters. Who are we?

[Urwen]

Nvm.

[Urwen]

I've been thinking about this for days, and still drawing a blank. Maybe one of the Hobbits..?

[Galadriel55]

No these aren't hobbits. Both characters are also well known.

[Urwen]

Maybe Denethor and Eomer, who both encountered Hobbits?

[Huinesoron]

I think this relationship is the one between Elrond and any of the Sons of Feanor, but can't come up with a plauslble answer based on that.

(I've been thinking about this several times, but never found anything coherent.)

hS

[Galadriel55]

Neither one, I'm afraid. The encounters in question are pretty singular - though not unique. Of the legendary world-changing variety. And for both kinsmen, this encounter could be said to be the most important part of their respective stories. Think of two stories that are about different people, different times - but both have one of the relatives encounter... well, the same encounter.

[Urwen]

So they encounter the same person?

[Galadriel55]

So they encounter the same person?

They encounter the same... well, the encounter that makes them famous. World-renowned.

[Urwen]

Oh, don't tell me it's them? But that's impossible. The in-law thing makes it impossible.

Or maybe it doesn't if the first cousin once removed is a girl...

Tentative Finrod + Tuor guess coming your way.

[Galadriel55]

Finrod and Tuor are not correct. What would that encounter be, that they are most famous for? Finrod could be said to be famous for meetin Men, or Sauron. Tuor's great deeds don't really include encounters, per se, unless you count Ulmo's instruction session. I don't think they share a grand encounter in common.

[Urwen]

Didn't they both meet Ulmo? *confused*

[Galadriel55]

Didn't they both meet Ulmo? *confused*

Sure, but how is Finrod meeting Ulmo the thing he is best known for? You are looking for encounters that are both legendary, and, arguably, the greatest points of both kinsmen's lives.

As a further hint, keep looking in the First Age.

[Urwen]

Legendary as in, for instance, Feanor meeting Galadriel and she inspiring him to make Silmarils?

[Urwen]

Oh, wait, a thought occurred to me. Let's see if it's the right one.


And it isn't.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, generic possibilities:

- The grandchildren of Finwe and their descendents.

- The house of Elwe and Olwe - Luthien is 1c1r to both Celeborn and Galadriel, for example.

- The early Edain; I wonder whether Beor might be one of the two, perhaps by way of the leader of one of the other houses being called his cousin.

- The late Edain, centred around the cast of the three Great Tales.

All of which come together in the vicinity of Earendil.

I did wonder if it could be Luthien and Idril, but I don't think Her Highness of Doriath is that closely related to the Gondolin crowd.

It might be Luthien and Aredhel, if we believe that Eol is first cousin to Thingol. They both met a man in the woods and thus began the significant parts of their stories. But I think Eol is only "kin" to Elu.

hS

[Urwen]

I thought about Luthien and Arwen, but that doesn't pan out either.

[Galadriel55]

Legendary as in, for instance, Feanor meeting Galadriel and she inspiring him to make Silmarils?

Legendary as in, for instance, "Feanor made the Silmarils" - a deed that is of great renown, AND arguably the most important deed of his life, if you were to sum it up in one sentence. What is his meeting Galadriel? Details on the margins. You are looking for grand things.

If you are tackling this from the family tree perspective, Hui, here's something: both kinsmen are from the same RACE, but are counted in different sub-groups of that race. (E.g. to clarify with a Third Age example, both Legolas and Glorfindel are Elves, but one is Silvan and the othery is Noldor).

[Urwen]

So it's the encounter itself that is legendary.

Okay, so...

Beren and Luthien meeting
Tuor meeting Ulmo

and that's it as far as I know... :confused:

[Urwen]

Wait, wait, wait. Turin and Earendil are first-cousins once-removed, I believe, and they both slew dragons. And since Turin and Nienor were married, Turin is both Earendil's first-cousin-once-removed and his first-cousin-once-removed-in-law.

How about that? :p

ETA: Your 'race' comment invalidates that. Bummer...

[Huinesoron]

Legendary as in, for instance, "Feanor made the Silmarils" - a deed that is of great renown, AND arguably the most important deed of his life, if you were to sum it up in one sentence. What is his meeting Galadriel? Details on the margins. You are looking for grand things.

If you are tackling this from the family tree perspective, Hui, here's something: both kinsmen are from the same RACE, but are counted in different sub-groups of that race. (E.g. to clarify with a Third Age example, both Legolas and Glorfindel are Elves, but one is Silvan and the othery is Noldor).

O-kay. I think that means it has to be either a Noldo/Sinda pair, or a pair between two of the three Houses of Men.

A poke through the Sindar tree doesn't show anything obvious, so I'm thinking Men. Who are the notable Edain of the First Age?

... ah.

Beren's first cousin is Baragund, father of Morwen. Morwen's husband is Hurin - and Beren and Hurin both encountered Morgoth Bauglir (which went rather better in Beren's case, and that's saying a lot!).

hS

[Urwen]

Come on, one of us has to be right, so which one is it? :p

[Galadriel55]

Beren's first cousin is Baragund, father of Morwen. Morwen's husband is Hurin - and Beren and Hurin both encountered Morgoth Bauglir (which went rather better in Beren's case, and that's saying a lot!).

Indeed! Though Hurin arguably had the greater courage, staring down Morgoth and telling him he's a sorry idiot. Beren, if I recall, spent most of the time slinking in the corners or being unconscious. But still, his trip there and back again from Angband is his most famous deed.

Over to you!

[Huinesoron]

Indeed! Though Hurin arguably had the greater courage, staring down Morgoth and telling him he's a sorry idiot. Beren, if I recall, spent most of the time slinking in the corners or being unconscious. But still, his trip there and back again from Angband is his most famous deed.

Sure, and courage, heroism, glory, and tuppence will get you a tuppenny sweet. :D The Silm is really down on doing things that get you noticed, isn't it? Like, the #1 combat instruction it gives is "Don't Let The Enemy Notice You".

Over to you!

Okay, let's talk inheritance. In general, titles in Middle-earth are passed down father to son - most notably in Aragorn's family, which is pretty much a straight shot back to Silmarien. But sometimes there's a break, and a more distant relative has to take the title.

Treating each title as a separate creation (ie, Elendil is not the heir of Tar-Miriel), and looking only at titles which did not fall into abeyance along the way (ie, Aragorn did not inherit from Isildur), and ignoring non-inherited titles (ie, Mayor of the Shire), who is the most genealogically distant confirmed inheritor of a title in the history of Middle-earth?

(I've found a couple of options, but if someone can outdo them I'll be delighted.)

hS

[Urwen]

Does 'Ring-bearer' count?

Cos if so, Deagol, from Isildur...

:p

[Urwen]

Serious answer though. Since all three (four. :mad:) are distantly related, the title of Numenorean Ruling Queen is shared between Ancalime, Telperien, Vanimelde and Miriel.

[Huinesoron]

Does 'Ring-bearer' count?

Cos if so, Deagol, from Isildur...


:D But what was the precise relationship between the two...?

Anyway, no: the title was in abeyance [= disused] in between, not directly inherited. Also I don't think it was an official title, except as used of Frodo.

Serious answer though. Since all three (four. :mad:) are distantly related, the title of Numenorean Ruling Queen is shared between Ancalime, Telperien, Vanimelde and Miriel.

Now that's clever, but I don't think it counts - leaving aside whether it's actually a different title to "King of Numenor" (they inherited from and were inhereted by kings), it would be in abeyance in between them.

hS

[Urwen]

By your initial wording, it does count, since you never specified it cannot be in abeyance in your initial post.


But I like a challenge, so I will keep looking anyway.

[Urwen]

So Earnil inherited the title from Ondoher, and they're distantly related.

[Huinesoron]

By your initial wording, it does count, since you never specified it cannot be in abeyance in your initial post.

But I like a challenge, so I will keep looking anyway.

I did in the final question, though not discussed in the preamble. :) It was the last bit I added in before posting. (The edit was because I'd spelt 'tuppenny' with one N.)

So Earnil inherited the title from Ondoher, and they're distantly related.

And that's the most distant answer I found too. :) Kind of disappointed it wasn't something more obscure! I was inspired by the time the crown of France was passed to a line that had split off three centuries earlier.

The other option, rather more dubious, is Gil-Galad: if he's the son of Orodreth son of Angrod, then he would be first cousin twice removed to the previous High King, Turgon.

hS

[Urwen]

So do I get a turn or no?

[Huinesoron]

So do I get a turn or no?

I'm sorry, I'm afraid the next six turns have been sold to Amazon; they're creating a series of puzzles about the previously-unknown Heirs of Miriel which should be released sometime in 2025. :)

Yes, it's your turn.

hS

[Urwen]

I'm sorry, I'm afraid the next six turns have been sold to Amazon; they're creating a series of puzzles about the previously-unknown Heirs of Miriel which should be released sometime in 2025. :)

hS


Let me guess, Mabur, Mahur, Magur, Masur and Faramir.

[Urwen]

Okay, so there are two known members of Elros' line who lost the throne that was rightfully theirs. How many 'generations' (loosely speaking) are between them?

[Huinesoron]

Let me guess, Mabur, Mahur, Magur, Masur and Faramir.

Oh, you saw the press release too!

Okay, so there are two known members of Elros' line who lost the throne that was rightfully theirs. How many 'generations' (loosely speaking) are between them?

Hmm. One must be Tar-Miriel, but after that... Tar-Alcarin, whose sceptre was siezed by his dad? There are seven Kings of Numenor between Alcarin and Miriel (plus them makes nine).

Or is this about Silmarien, who should have been Ruling Queen had Numenor had better laws? Probably not, but there's 20 generations (ish) between her and Miriel.

... I've only just now realised that Tar-Meneldur from the Aldarion and Erendis story is Silmarien's brother. He... really didn't want to be king, did he? He holed himself up in a tower in Forostar, then abdicated as soon as an excuse came along. I kinda like him.

hS

[Urwen]

Proceed.

[Huinesoron]

Proceed.

So... um... which answer was it? I gave two.

Okay, so: What is the familial relationship between Frodo and Sam?

hS

[Urwen]

So... um... which answer was it? I gave two.



The first one

[Urwen]

Can't find anything that suggest that they're even related...

[Urwen]

Unless this is a trick question and you mean the other one, in which case, they're father and son.

[Huinesoron]

Can't find anything that suggest that they're even related...

They are, by marriage.

Unless this is a trick question and you mean the other one, in which case, they're father and son.

Does it say "hobbitses" in our usernames, preciousss? We're not tricksy, no, not us!

hS

[Urwen]

I think I found a link, but it's a long one.

Let's see: son-in-law's father's grandfather's grandson's great-grandfather's grandson.

Yea, a bit convoluted...

[Huinesoron]

I think I found a link, but it's a long one.

Let's see: son-in-law's father's grandfather's grandson's great-grandfather's grandson.

Yea, a bit convoluted...

That seems to be right, but you took a more complex route than me! Faramir and Frodo are both direct descendants from the Old Took, so in fact Sam is father-in-law to Frodo's second cousin twice removed.

Your version went through Merry, right? Thus neatly linking all four of the Fellowship Hobbits. :)

Over to you.

hS

[Urwen]

Two related people performed the same kind of 'grand deed'. Who are they and how are they related?

[Galadriel55]

Two related people performed the same kind of 'grand deed'. Who are they and how are they related?

Well, let's try the hobbit take on this one. Bilbo and Frodo both left the Shire to save Bigger People in distant lands, and returned home. Though the grand deed by Shire reckoning is as likely to be that they managed to reclaim Bag-End after all the weirdness. Relationship: errm, second cousons once removed?

[Urwen]

Nope.

[Huinesoron]

Two related people performed the same kind of 'grand deed'. Who are they and how are they related?

Finwe and Fingolfin are father and son and both faced Morgoth (and died).

Earnil and Earnur are father and son and both fought the Lord of the Nazgul.

Durin III is the direct (and distant) ancestor of Dain, and they both faced Durin's Bane (though only Dain lived).

Arvedui is Aragorn's ancestor; both fought the Nazgul.

Elros is the ancestor of Elendil; both sailed over the sea and founded great kingdoms of the Edain.

Beren and Tuor are, what, first cousins twice removed? Both married Elven women and had half-elven sons.

Feanor is Earendil's great-great-uncle; both sailed across the Great Sea to alter the course of the First Age at one of its ends.

Beren is many-times-great-grandfather to Isildur, and both cut a Dark Lord to get some jewellery.

Namo and Irmo are brothers, and both sang in the Music of the Ainur.

Are we following Bilbo's rules where "just guess randomly" is a viable puzzle, or is there a clue hidden somewhere in the question? I can't find 'grand deed' as a canonical descriptor, and that's the only thing that would seem to fit.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, the great deed is something one is famous for, while the other also happened to do it. :p

[Galadriel55]

Well, the great deed is something one is famous for, while the other also happened to do it. :p

Well, unless you're gonna be more specific, it might as well be Primula Baggins and Deagol, (very) distant kin whose most well-known life event is toppling into a river.

[Urwen]

Nope. These two were already mentioned, on this exact page.

[Urwen]

Okay, so since no one found this, it was Turin and Earendil, the Dragonslayers.