Duplicate Threads

[Eldar14]

I would just like to ask, what's so bad about duplicate threads? Why do people keep correcting people by pointing out a thread on the same topic that died out a year and a half ago. Sometimes it's better to start a topic anew. I admit, referencing the old topic is good, but not always continuing in an old thread.

[Susan Delgado]

Why not? Having duplicate threads takes up valuable bandwidth that could be used for something else, and sometimes (often, actually) these are threads that did not die out a year and a half ago but are still current. Also, it's plain laziness to ask the same question over and over again rather than attempt to find an existing answer to it.

Also, these are most often not thoughtful, inciteful questions but are rather of topics that could be titled with "A question about [whatever]", where the answers can also be found by a glance in the books.

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hullo Susan Delgado,

Being one who enjoys both insightful and inciteful questions, I absolutely love the charm inherent in your turn of phrase "thoughtful, inciteful questions." smilies/smile.gif

* bows appreciatively with a good-natured grin, and on rising back up, presents you with a bouquet of asphodel, niphrodel, and elanor *

Gandalf the Grey

[Susan Delgado]

*bows in return, and hangs the flowers to dry*

Why thank you, Gandalf the Grey. I do pride myself on a certain subtleness of phrasing and I knew the intelligence level of this site would not allow it to go unnoticed. smilies/smile.gif

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

The duplicate threads that are being pointed out are usually ones that have been brought up within a few weeks before the duplicates are posted.
I am sorry, but it's a little crazy when two topics about "what people's favorite scenes in FOTR were" are posted on the same page only five posts away from one another.

Plus, there is some insight in the older threads that you may not get from new posts. Some people that have posted there won't post again and some aren't around anymore (sad), so you get a bigger variety of responses to view if you check out the older posts.

A lot of times people point out these old posts as a favor. Don't take offence to it.

[lindil]

Delete 'em first - ask questions later! smilies/cool.gif

Seriously though, it might be time for an update from Mr. Underhill and Co. [ an allowable abbreviation?]re: posting guidelines and perhaps a firmer hand in Books. It is a tough balance to strike though and I am sure Estelyn and the Admins will tighten it up. But expect it to be an ongoing problem till the last of the movies are long out, as we will keep getting very young folks who will cut their teeth here.

They are so excited to share and chat that they don't seem to see 5 threads down.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

lindil, the guidelines are there, but moderating to that extent is unbelievably time-consuming! Just doing the obvious takes hours and effort; fine-tuning will be done when possible. I'm afraid it may get busier rather than better when TTT starts showing...

[Bêthberry]

I would like to take a slightly different approach to the question of duplicate threads. Bandwidth issues are important, as Susan says, and so is the information in older threads, as Tigerlily Gamgee says. But more is at stake, IMHO. The question involves recognizing what an internet discussion board is about: discussion and community interaction.

The purpose of a discussion board is just that--discussion. We come here to seek out what is known about the topic, the topic here being the works of JRR Tolkien. Our way of learning that is through debate, evidence, reasons, inference, reflection. We do not simply state our opinion in the hopes that some will notice it and say, right on, but we strive to find those reasons which support our ideas or hypotheses. That means listening to everyone, those who have come before as well as those who are here now. (In light of this, I would point out Eldar14 that you made a claim in your post--that sometimes it is good to start a new thread rather than continue an old--but you did not give reasons in support of this claim.)

So, searching for previous threads is a function of this simple curiosity, of wondering if others have thought about a topic and what they have thought. Do I really have a new idea? How are my ideas different from what others have already said? What more can I bring to the discussion? What can I learn from what has been discussed previously? Questions like these can be answered by searching for previous threads. An analogy would be the difference between a primary school "What I think about" writing exercise and those reasoned, researched essays which are required at high school and beyond. The best threads here, whether old or new, have a "thesis" to them, a hypothesis, which is being defended or refuted or clarified.

Second, think for a moment about social interactions. When we meet people for the first time, do we immediately start talking about our own ideas and ourselves or do we politely ask people about themselves? This is a matter of courtesy and respect; it is not a hardfast rule of law or protocol, but a way in which human beings naturally interact. The same holds true for a discussion board. It is discourteous not to consider what others have said before speaking up oneself. Except the Barrow Downs is about writing rather than talking.

Come to think of it, historical models of cultural interaction can provide an analogy. When the Europeans came to North America, there were several different kinds of interactions between them and the first nations tribes who were the original inhabitants. In some cases, there were attempts to create multicultural communities which respected both the indigenous and the newly arrived culture. (I am thinking of Saint Marie Among the Hurons in what is now Ontario, Canada.) Then there were the cases, all too common, where the indigenous cultures were ignored, denigrated, wiped out. Another model saw the indigenous peoples given limited autonomy in tracks of land called reservations. Which of these models is now regarded as the most laudable, the most representative of the best forms of human interaction? The one which shows the greatest respect for all peoples.

I am not setting up a model of cultural genocide and insulting new members here. I myself am one of the new ones. I am trying to argue for a particular kind of vision about this internet community. That vision prioritizes thoughtful, reasoned argument in writing rather than impulsive, spontaneous conversation. Such a vision naturally means that "old" threads are an essential part of the community. They are not gone and forgotten, but provide the framework for current and future discussion.

Bethberry

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[HerenIstarion]

well said, Bb

[Zohariel]

They are dumb, they take up space & make more work for the Mods.
Thats my opinion. smilies/smile.gif

[Elenna]

I don't think that re-starting a topic that died a year ago is necessarily a bad thing. However, how many times can a person read a thread entitled "Who is your favorite character?" That one comes up every couple of days, it seems.

[lindil]

Estelyn T. lindil, the guidelines are there, but moderating to that extent is unbelievably time-consuming! Just doing the obvious takes hours and effort; fine-tuning will be done when possible. I'm afraid it may get busier rather than better when TTT starts showing...

By updating I really mean uderscoring, I do not think the guidelines need to be reworked, just underlined, again and again and again....I think the phrase is Ad nauseum ad infinitum.

Regarding the basics and the obvious being time consuming, I know it well. Everytime I try and clean up and organize the Silm forums, it takes hours [ usulaly 1-5 AM to be precise!]


Estelyn you really have a lot on your plate w/ N&N and the Movies. I bet if you wanted you could find some/a support mod.
I imagine N&N alone could be a full time job!
Please do not take any of my comments as being critical of your moderating at all, I think as regards Books [ the only one I frequent enough to comment upon] it has done much, much better since you took over. As you note though the law of entropy [ especially in a barrow smilies/wink.gif ] is not to be forgottn. TTT will bring a fresh wave of newbies who will need to be coached.

Bethberry said, Our way of learning that is through debate, evidence, reasons, inference, reflection. We do not simply state our opinion in the hopes that some will notice it and say, right on, but we strive to find those reasons which support our ideas or hypotheses. That means listening to everyone, those who have come before as well as those who are here now.

And I whole heartedly agree, and esentially what she outlined above should, IMO, be SOP [oops] Standard Operating Procedure for Books. N&N is I think designed specifically for the impulse poster.


IN regards to the N&N Forum maybe going back and deleting old repetitous one's can save the bandwidth.How much archival value do 7 'I love legolas' threads have?


In summary, the repetition of topics in Books should, whenever a moderator has time be carefully scrutinized and possibly retitled to bring out the nuance of a thread.

Otherwise nipping them in the bud so that there are not 3 topics all entitled Sarumans Ring is justifiable. Since the Downs is a pretty civilized place that much more than policing flamers is what a Mod does here. Seems to me, but then again I have never been given a 'How to Moderate your forum handbook'!


I am rather ruthless about things in my forums but they are specialized, so it is many wasys not a suitable model to apply to the other forums.I will ship things off to Books the moment it seems tangential to the Silm project.

Overall the time after Underhill's sticky, things were great, now it just seems to be loosening and that is completely to be expected, and people are aware enough to notice and that is good, and people care enough to comment politely with helpful suggestions ,and that is better and the Admins and mods listen, ponder scrutinize,agonize and finally act! and that is what makes the Downs an excellent board methinks.

Symbiotic smilies/cool.gif

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Eldar14]

It's seems as if the degree to which I in a way disagree with always continuing a thread in an existing thread was misunderstood. I wholeheartedly agree that having five topics all about what is your favorite scene is a problem. And I don't think there should be any threads about how Legolas in the movie is so hot. Those examples are a waste of bandwidth and space and time. However, with some of the more in-depth discussions, I think it can be good to start the discussion anew, letting new ideas come out. Many times, once a thread gets so long, new ideas seem to have a problem coming in. Also, many longer threads aren't exclusively about the original topic. I admit referencing existing topics, however, is a very good idea and practice, after all, the knowledge in existing topics is useful.

[Elenna]

Lindil, I agree with you about your forum. The one I moderate is very controlled because we have frozen new topics. Now only mods and admins can start new topics. While I am NOT recommend doing that for any other forums, it does help control off-topic posting in the Freestyle RPG room.

I actually don't mind one "Legolas is soooo hot" discussion. It'll give those who wish to discuss Orlando Bloom's toenails somewhere to chat. It's when they infiltrate the serious discussions that it becomes a problem. And no, I'm not contradicting my previous views. I still find fangirls to be annoying. If they all had one discussion, I wouldn't have to listen to them.

[Galadrie1]

Before I post a new thread, I always search a couple of the forums (just because I think the thread belongs in N&N doesn't mean someone else thought it should be in The Books). If you find a thread that's almost like what you were thinking of, you can make a new thread, with a reference to the old one (like Eldar14 said), or post a question on the old thread. That way, when people go to read that thread, they already have the existing information right there to help them answer your new question.

I find duplicate threads a sign of laziness: the poster of the thread didn't take the time to search through a few forums. Sure, sometimes it's hard to find what you're looking for if the topic names aren't specific, but I find it extremely annoying when I see new threads, and I remember another thread exactly like it, with almost the same topic name.

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ]

[onewhitetree]

I find that insulting our new members who may one day aspire to be great literary scholars because of the (firm) kindness they were shown at our website is the most annoying thing of all. smilies/smile.gif

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: onewhitetree ]

[Gayahithwen]

Yeah, duplicate threads are irritating. That's one of the reasons why I almost never post any new threads (I think that I haven't posted a new thread in two or three months).

Most of the time, it isn't to hard to find a thread on the topic you are interested in. Hm. I don't think I've got anything more to say, so I'll stop.

[TolkienGurl]

Well, someone said something about some of the young people being here just because of the movies, don't worry - I'm not one of them! I absolutely LOVE to talk with everyone on here about Tolkien stuff - not things like "favorite character" (even though I do sometimes comment in those threads smilies/rolleyes.gif ). Though I'm only 15, I can still post intelligently! smilies/biggrin.gif

smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif TolkienGurl smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[Melephelwen]

I just have a thought on that general thing about "teen-fangirl":

Almost everyone of those "Legolas is soooo hot and I love him above all!"-types are teenage girls, but not all teenagegirls a extreme Lego-fans. smilies/rolleyes.gif