txt msg style ritng wiv no cptlzation or pnctuation...grrr!

[LePetitChoux]

I'm here to post an official complaint about chat style writing. This in all probability has been done before, but I cannot find the thread. The difficulty of interpreting wot dey wanna sey wen dey pst like dis is in my opinion hardly worth the effort, because why post in bad grammar, and bad spelling and clear carelessness if you want peple to come and take you and your posts seriously? Only too often have I seen "hello i'm new" messages (not capitalised, bien sur), with completely uneducated writing! Now, is it just me, or is the Policies thread there for the explicit (I'm not English, is that the right word?) purpose of filling all new users in on what the rules are in Barrow Downs, in hope that they will actually follow them? And is it just me, or is there a chunk of the Policies thread which says: The Downs is not a chat room. Typos are one thing, but lazy chat-style abbreviations and punctuation put you in the dog-house with the mods before they’ve even clicked on your topic. Take some pride in what you write! Use whole sentences and proper capitalization. Put some effort into expressing yourself clearly. I'm seriously not complaining about the 'Downs, I think its the most wonderful website ever! (all hail the Barrow-Wight!) All I'm saying is, if you have something to say, say it well!
Thats all from me now...but I vil be back! http://www.plauder-smilies.de/tiere/grommit.gif

[Mhoram]

The Abbreviator would be proud! It seems he has indeed defeated Spellcheck Man for good!

[ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

[Childlike Empress]

Small one (sorry, I don't know what "Choux" means), I suggest checking out "(sp?): The Phantom Menace" and "The Agony of Poor Spelling" right here in this barrow. Worth reading smilies/smile.gif

[VanimaEdhel]

Please, please, please, for the sake of the sanity of your fellow wraiths and the moderators, think before you start a topic. What should you think about? Well for one, is this a topic that has been done many times before? Are there a few topics just like this one that are already active? Can I find an old discussion on this topic and find something new to add to that one instead of creating a new one?

Sorry, could not resist the urge...I'm just feeling sarcastic and cynical...and fairly Dark-Ladyesque today...

EDIT: Happy 1480th post to me...do I get candy? What a waste of a 1480th post...

[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: VanimaEdhel ]

[LePetitChoux]

OK, OK, I get both the hint and the irony of making a duplicate thread to decry duplicate threads smilies/wink.gif smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Arwen Imladris]

For starting a topic especially, it might help to write it in Word or equivalent first. This is good because it checks your spelling at least for you and you can sit back and look at it before you post. Just a suggestion.

[Amanaduial the archer]

Small one (sorry, I don't know what "Choux" means),

cabbage. The Little Cabbage. In France, its an endearment. Makes you wonder...

I was just looking at some of the threads I posted on when I was fairly new, and when I found some of my posts and a few from other people who were newbies at that time and I couldnt help wincing- Its really quite painful! All da mesjs r like dis & deres no splling & vowls dont exst. c'est tres bizarre!

I do pride myself on one thing though; I have never used abreviated text or chat speech in any RPGs. That is one thing that really bugs me.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

If somebody is new, I think it's okay that they use chat and bad grammar for the first, say 2 weeks, after which they figure out how to type properly. I dUn MeN tInS lAk DiS though. If somebody doesn't capitalize or doesn't have the best grammar at first it's probably okay. I'm pretty new myself smilies/smile.gif but have been here for a few month, long enough to know not to use chatese. Maybe it would be helpful if people 'lurked' a bit before posting, so that they see how to type.

~Menelien

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I knew how to speak and write English before I found the Downs. There was this place I went to; what was it called again? That's it: school.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

smilies/biggrin.gif
I used chatese before I cam to the Downs, but I don't think I ever used it here. Right now, I only use chatese when talking to 2 of my friends on AIM. I talk to the rest in normal letters. I don't know why. smilies/rolleyes.gif

~Menelien

[Iarwain]

The funny thing is that when people use "chatese" (great word menelien smilies/smile.gif ) it makes them sound, well, stupid. And when people act less intelligent than I'm sure they are, it annoys me. And when something annoys me, I take on a very condesending attitude that is not good for me or that person. So you see, the use of chatese is a horrible crime that should be punished by.. life!

Iarwain

[Weber]

I knew how to speak and write English before I found the Downs. There was this place I went to; what was it called again? That's it: school.
Yes that's right (or in chat form ya dat's rght). But since I haven't posted here much, I luckily have not been affected by that. smilies/wink.gif

[Lyra Greenleaf]

Weber- wow! The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism?

Sorry. My early posts showed a distinct lack of any grammar and capitals but I did spell words right, which is something. Beginning to RPG was what encouraged me to write properly, because it got me into the habit. Like Aman said, chat-speak in RPGs is TERRIBLE!

[Sleeping Beauty]

I'm still trying to figure out why people use chatese on the net in the first place. (Ideas, anyone?) It's not a place where you can just slack off and not use the knowledge you have gained in that noodle of yours. It's just another medium to which you can get information and meet other people. We need to uphold to a standard which everyone can understand what you are trying to stay. And also so you don't look like an idiot while you're trying to be profound and getting insights into Tolkien. smilies/wink.gif

[Amanaduial the archer]

When people do use chat speak in RPGs, it just completely spoils the feel of it. You cant have a serious RPG when, in a tragic death scene, the main character says, "ill b ok, u can go on wivout me. im gonna go 2 a betta plaz." Well, that truly will go down in history as a great moment as writing, wont it? I mean, come on.

However, my writing isn't perfect- one of the moderators once asked if I was dyslexic, which was embarassing. And I think I might have just spelt embarassing wrong. Man, I'm not helping my point, am I?

There are, of course, quite alot of BDers for whom English is their second, or third, language, some of them still at school. It is perfectly understandable if their spelling isnt perfect, because they're doing flaming well to be able to get by here anyway. As someone who does four languages at school and is doing awfully at three of them, I am in awe of those people.

[vanwalossien]

As someone who does four languages at school and is doing awfully at three of them, I am in awe of those people I think doing four languages at school is quite impressive Aman, I'm doing three and that's by far enough (but I'll end up adding Russian to my burden in two years time I fear. And I study Quenya...). English is my second language, and sometimes it fails me completely, mostly in the way that I'm not able to express myself and end up not writing the stupid post. I don't think I have too many misspellings, because I already feel stupid enough when I have trouble expressing myself, so I try to check the spelling and grammar on the things I do write.

The thing that annoys me most about chatese, isn't that it makes the writer seem a bit more stupid than he/she probably is, but the fact that I often have a lot of trouble understanding it... I understand Norwegian chatese (at least to some extent), but English? As I said, I've got enough with ordinary English.

[ May 10, 2003: Message edited by: vanwalossien ]

[Amanaduial the archer]

English is your second language? smilies/eek.gif Man, I thought you were from the states or England. (Not an insult, ok?) Wow. Impressed.

And now I feel even worse for not knowing my latin groups better.

[vanwalossien]

Man, I thought you were from the states or England. (Not an insult, ok?) I'll try my very best to not be offended smilies/wink.gif . As I said, if I'm having trouble and the post turns out really stupid I don't post it. I take pride in what little writing I do (260 posts in 8 months, I could've done better smilies/rolleyes.gif )
EDIT: I underestimate myself. 270, not 260... smilies/smile.gif

[ May 10, 2003: Message edited by: vanwalossien ]

[Amanaduial the archer]

I'll try my very best to not be offended smilies/smile.gif

Where are you actually from then? Just wondering, mind.

[vanwalossien]

Norway *dramatic sigh* smilies/rolleyes.gif

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I often have a lot of trouble understanding it... I understand Norwegian chatese (at least to some extent), but English? As I said, I've got enough with ordinary English.


I was thinking of saying something like that myself. It isn't fair on the members for whom English isn't a first language to use opaque abbreviations and obscure acronyms. It isn't fair on those of us who went to school before the Internet existed either. Not everyone can understand the weirder short-cuts, so we ought to stick to a standard that we can all comprehend, which is after all why we have rules of spelling and grammar. Your English is very good, vanwalossien. I'd never have guessed you were from Norway.

[Amanaduial the archer]

Apart from when you said you understand Norwegian chatese. Which I completely missed. Hey, its half ten at night, gimme- sorry, give me- a break!

[vanwalossien]

I'd never have guessed you were from Norway. Thank goodness! Only a limited amount of national pride here... Ok, Norway's not that bad, we have better Chatese than you English people do smilies/wink.gif. We actually avoid using numbers in our chatese. (One of few English chatese expressions I understand is gr8.)

[Weber]

260 posts in 8 months, I could've done better
Don't worry, I've been here for about a year and only about 86 posts. Yes, yes i know, it's sad smilies/frown.gif smilies/wink.gif

[Melephelwen]

U r so rit bt d ndrstndng stf! I would take a couple of minutes translating that sentence, if I hadn't practiced it for ages. I usually give up when I see those threads... smilies/rolleyes.gif
I don't understand how people can write "chatese" at hand. Ever I try, I always end up using 'you' anyways. (Okay, so I admit, I actually try to learn chatese. Don't know why, just figured it would be good, if I needed to decipher something.)
English is also my second language, but I almost never have troubles expressing myself, except for situations I also have in my native tounge. When I give up a post, it's usually because I don't know what I want to say. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Amanaduial the archer]

You tried to learn chatese?!

Man, we should get this registered as a real language.

[Amanaduial the archer]

You tried to learn chatese?!

Man, we should get this registered as a real language.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I know chatese as I used to *shudder* use it smilies/eek.gif I understand why people might use it on AIM, repulsive thought it may be, because you can say things faster and all that. But on forums... here it’s not a race to say things faster, so chatese is just annoying. (but I'll end up adding Russian to my burden in two years time I fear. And I study Quenya...) I study Quenya too, but I’m barely moving, and I’m happy that there will be another Russian speaker here smilies/biggrin.gif

~Menelien

[The Daughter of Gollum and Shelob]

I also study Quenya. But about the txt msg lingo, I agree that it does not look good in RPGs. But in other topics, I don't c y ppl cnt use it. smilies/tongue.gif

BTW - my mum texts me in Proper English Which Is Funny.

[The Barrow-Wight]

In a forum dedicated to the literary works of our favorite author, it would be completely improper to use anything but correct English. The best thing a new member can do on any forum is lurk until they determine the standards of conduct and writing of the place they have entered. Too many people jump right in without looking to see what they might be stepping in.

[vanwalossien]

BTW - my mum texts me in Proper English Which Is Funny. I write text messages in proper Norwegian, I always end up sending my messages in two or three parts... smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Ainaserkewen]

I hate chat style writting in all forms!
When I was a kid, we did extensive training on typing. So I've never been able to abbreviate before, plus I just can't read it. Hopefully people take this under concideration because it's driving me nuts.

[Arwen Imladris]

I found a short, satirical essay on bad grammar in e-correspondence starring Professor Tolkien. The article asks, how might the Good Professor have responded to the average email, if he'd lived to see the day?

Click Here! (http://www.mystica.cc/more.php?id=145_0_1_0_M)

Very funny and deffinatly worth the read!

[Amanaduial the archer]

Thanks Arwen!

I never got taught how to type really- I taught myself to touch type. If I starty typing random stuff, it will just be typos- look around the letter I seem to have got wrong and youll find the right one. Probably.

[Birdland]

Arwen - That was priceless. I can't even imagine how you managed to search for such an example. "Tolkien + IM"?

By the way: I loath I.M. in all its forms, and friends know this. Besides the ridiculous abbreviations, I hate having an instant message popping up in the middle of my web surfing. (And no. It is not the same as having a person walk into the room.) Send me an e-mail and I'll get back to you, for pity sakes!

[Trippo The Hippo]

When I first came here I used no punctuation, or capitalization. Then I got a PM from Mithadan, informing me that I should strive to use better grammar. Well looking back at my earlier posts, I can see why he did that. So I apologize to all of you that read those early posts. Also thanks Mith for straightening me out.

[The Only Real Estel]

There's no way you can make everybody cooperate & disallow chat room spelling, unless the mods get involved. Just bear with it, and if you see someone doing it consistently, PM them & inform them of the need to use correct grammer/punctuation.
Bi fr nw... smilies/biggrin.gif
smilies/cool.gif

[ May 14, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[Yavanna228]

Although I admit to using some acronyms while I IM some people, I find it using it on message boards thoroughly unproffesional and inconsiderate to those who may not know English as a first language. I would also suggest, as many others have, to give it your best effort when you post- it keeps it easier to read (ironically!), and gets your point across better. I found this short satire on 'English Made Easy' while surfing the 'net. Enjoy!
English Made Easy! (http://www.electricscotland.com/humour/h17.htm)
Peace

[Lossentilien]

I agree with the general points made here, especially about it being hard to read text message style writing, but do things like 'kinda' or 'lol' count? (Obviously not in more formal posts, as in RPG.) Because I sometimes find myself writing things like that just for speed, and because it's not something that most people would have to figure out. Although I suppose not everyone will know. And I've noticed that quite a lot of people write j/k.
That's about the limit of text style I can actually stand. It drives me mad when people shorten the word 'come', or shorten words to the extent that you have to read it over a few times before you figure it out. smilies/mad.gif

[ May 14, 2003: Message edited by: Lossentilien ]

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

perhaps you should abide by the adage, "Short cuts make for long delays". Priceless smilies/biggrin.gif
I think that's a perfect phrase to describe chatese! And Trippo, for example, well you started using normal language very fast, and even what you wrote before was at least legible smilies/wink.gif But lots of people keep writing chatese forever smilies/rolleyes.gif

~Menelien

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Personally I've never liked colloquialisms, and speed for me should never be bought at the expense of clarity or elegance of expression.

Many people abbreviate words and fail to proof-read their posts because they are worried that somebody else will say what they mean to before they have finished typing, but I can't see why it should matter who makes a point as long as it is made: we are not here to compete in cleverness. If someone does happen to get in first the post can be edited to avoid any duplication, and dashing them off as quickly as possible just leads to a slapdash argument that makes it appear that its author couldn't be bothered to write it out properly. Readers will skim past such a post in search of something more thoughtful.

There's also the matter of the audience: anyone with an internet connection can read what is posted here, so it surprises and saddens me that some people seem to take no pride at all in what they publish. 'Kind of' (abbreviated to 'kinda' above, in order to save typing a mere two characters) is a familiar term, the use of which is discouraged in serious writing in favour of 'somewhat' or 'rather'. The chat-room acronym 'lol' (which I thought was a mis-typing of 'loll' when first I saw it) doesn't belong at all in a discussion forum, where there is sufficient time to type "That had me laughing out loud" or words to that effect. As for the hideous 'j/k', if you have chosen your words properly anyone with a reasonable level of intelligence should be able to tell whether or not you are joking without being told. With practice it becomes easy to infuse a jocular tone into a piece of writing without the use of any decoration or embellishment at all, which makes it much more enjoyable to read. Surely we all want people to enjoy reading what we post.

[ May 14, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I basically agree with what the Squatter wrote, though I have not quite gotten out of the habit of using 'lol'. There is, however, one acronym that is used around the site: FYI for for your information. I haven't been able to find any others, though.

~Menelien

[dragoneyes]

I shudder every time the term 'lol' is used. Even in chat I try not to use it (not that many things are funny enough to get me laughing out loud). I endeavour to use proper English in my typing and when other people do not I can be quite annoyed by it. Disregarding entirely that some particularly badly written posts can take me twice as long to read as I would've taken were it written properly.

[Lalaith]

Hmm. Mea Culpa - I do post things like btw (by the way) and IRL (in real life). And, very sparingly, rofl. But never lol.
Incidently, isn't txtspk just a sign that you have a really cheap phone? The ones I've had have always had predictive texting, so no need for all these tiresome abbreviations...

[Annalaliath]

I know that my spelling is off most of the time but I am really bad at it. Sometimes I stump the computer. But for those who read my posts you have to understand that I spell out how the words sound. Sometimes that does not work. I am not dyslexic as far as I know, but I think that in my Organizationally challenged life bad spelling is part of that. Or maybe I have the dyslexia that many artists do, I look for the shape in words, maybe not. I also think of the letters that make the sounds of the words or possible letters and therefore misspell a lot of things. Of course it may be the chemicals that I am exposed to in the art department. I do a lot of the spell checks in word, and my last RP I had my friend look over for me. Um by the way what does BTW mean? I have known English all my life but I still have a hard time with the abbreviations and the acronyms. But I live in a state with two languages that are spoken all the time, Spanish and English. I can figure out what the Spanish speakers are saying, to a point I get the gist. I cannot learn it to save my life; I tried once. But anyway, I also have a hard time saying a lot of words too in my own language. So for most of you who know more than one language I tip my hat to you. The RPGs have helped much more than I expected, because I am now beginning to catch my mistakes. Of course this may be due to my English instructor and that evil research paper. Anyway now that you are board to death I shall stop!

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I do post things like btw (by the way) and IRL (in real life). And, very sparingly, rofl. But never lol IRL? I never even knew about that one. And I never use any except for "lol", so at least it's sort of excusable, I think.

~Menelien

[The Only Real Estel]

Like I said, it's no biggie, just PM the person & point out the need to use proper grammer/puctuation/etc. Plain & simple... smilies/cool.gif

[Arwen Imladris]

Birdland: theonering.net is where I found it! It is the source of any information that I cannot find here!

Thanks Yavanna228! That was a good article too!

[Birdland]

Annalaliath - I see little to complain of concerning your spelling. And there is nothing wrong with proofreading your posts multiple times. Before we had the preview function, I would go back and edit 2-3 times, deleting the "edit" note each time so it didn't show up over and over at the end of my post.

However; I must gently point out that part of proper grammar is knowing how to break down your entry into paragraph form. These old eyes of mine have trouble following your points when they are strung together into one long, unbroken block of type. It looks better on the page, as well. (Which the eye of an artist should appreciate.)

Bee-Dubya made a very good point when he stated that the best way to honor our favorite writer is to appreciate and practice the art of the written word.

Of course, I just negated everything that I have said by using "Bee-Dubya". smilies/smile.gif

[Diamond18]

I knew how to speak and write English before I found the Downs. There was this place I went to; what was it called again? That's it: school.

An interesting point: I also knew how to speak and write before the Downs (though shouldn't we be saying The Barrow Downs?). However, I never went to that place called school. smilies/tongue.gif (Pardon me whilst I assume an air of irritating smugness.)

This may be an irrelevent tangent, but it is interesting to take into account that the modern English we speak is comprised of many debasements (so to speak) of older, more formal speech. You pick up any novel from centuries gone by, and the text is bound to be more verbose and erudite than 90% of the novels today. Granted, I've not studied etymology to a great extent, but I have noticed what seems like a downward trend in language. Besides a general, overall simplification and resortment to smaller words, many new words that make it into our accepted speech and writing are acronyms such as "snafu" and "radar". So it doesn't surprise me in the least that acronyms such as "Lol", "Rofl", "IMO (or) IMHO", "BTW" et cetera, have caught on so.

I don't mean to say that this trend is not lamentable, but it seems very much like a part of human nature which is likely impossible to change. So those of us who value our rules of spelling, grammar, and linguistic etiquette, can't really stop others from using and abusing it the way they see fit. We can make a few converts, but they'll always outnumber us, it seems. I probably make my own point by using contractions, and modern slang which we've ceased to think of as slang anymore. Send me back in time, and they'd probably be horrified by my uncouth speech.

So one day... People in the future will be lamenting the fact that yngstrs dont jst stck 2 pln 'glsh ne mor.

Pardon me if my knells of doom boom a little too loud for you. I seem to have had a sudden attack of cynicism.

On the other hand, one could go the other way, and say that the alternitive to the constant warping of our language, is to have it stagnate and die. I hear all the time that Latin is a dead language. Perhaps these debasements, colloquialisms, acronyms, and such, keep our speech alive and healthy, in a twisted sort of backward logic.

Eh... It's far too late to start debating with myself, so I'll quit now and leave you to ponder the bizarrerie that is human communication.

[Lyra Greenleaf]

I was really trying, but have to go off topic for a moment: What on earth is rofl? I know the others, but not that! I do understand why people use chat-speak, sometimes I'm tempted! Just to get on with it, and that's not because I'm worried about people posting the same, just because I have to cram a lot of Barrowdowns into 40 minutes internet per day!

[The X Phial]

ROFL is an abbreviation of "[R]olling [O]n the [F]loor, [L]aughing." It is often used to denote a very high level of amusement, since laughing out loud is used so much that it has lost its real meaning.

"Lol" simply denotes amusement, even slight amusement, or indicates that something said was not meant to be taken seriously. I'm afraid I am quite guilty of this in the chatroom, but do not use "lol" or other chat terms on the forum if I can help it.

I would also like to add that it is not just the forum or other internet venues that are influenced by chatspeak. I am a teaching assistant at an Ivy League university, and I have seen chatspeak creep into formal academic papers more and more often in my three years here. Also rampant is the use of the smiley within an academic paper to indicate that something is an exaggeration or otherwise lighthearted. I see this as a much more significant problem than its use in the forum. Yes, language must be vital and reflect culture, but educated people should be able to use language appropriate to the education culture. I think it is far more excusable on an internet forum than it is in an end of term essay.

[ May 15, 2003: Message edited by: The X Phial ]

[vanwalossien]

I have seen chatspeak creep into formal academic papers more and moreWhat? *stops complaining about BDers (almost)* People use chatese in papers written at the university? Even my SMS-generation 10th grade classmates don't do that! I wouldn't have been able to do that, there'd be some kind of mental block against it.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

I am thoroughly horrified with myself as I read this thread. I despise chat language as a rule, and make a valiant attempt to even keep it out of my chat, but as XPhial has just pointed out, it's creeping into my other writing as well. This is enough to make me plan out my New Year's Resolution in advance: No more "lol".

And as XPhial also pointed out, it is extremely tempting to use smileys in everyday writing. I did, I admit, use one in a paper on one occasion. And I've been tempted to otherwise. It's like a verbal tic in typing.

They say that you know a language well when you think in it. I would say its not much of a leap to say that a phrase or even a smiley has become part of the language when the first thing one thinks of as a response is a smiley, and the second is: "How I wish it was appropriate to use a smiley here!"

Argh... this is good for me, I certainly want to sound like the educated person I'll be when I finish my education! Thanks all.

Sophia

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Sorry of my ignorance, but, uh… what exactly is “IMHO”? If somebody already said, I am extremely sorry, but my memory seems to be going and gone while I am barely in my teens smilies/wink.gif

~Menelien

[piosenniel]

In My Humble Opinion - IMHO

[The Saucepan Man]

While I am no fan of chatspeak and have hardly ever used it (I have never even sent a text message), I do think that 'smileys' are useful in a forum such as this, appropriately used. Since it is a discussion atmosphere, they make up for the facial expressions and tones of voice that would otherwise feature in a discussion.

Of course, I agree that they have no place in academic papers, or any other formal piece of writing for that matter.

[The X Phial]

I actually have no problem with the use of smileys in forum posts either. I use them all the time in chat, as well. The temptation to pepper all of one's writing with them, however, is dangerous. Thankfully I have never been tempted to use a smiley in my master's thesis, but I have seen many a paper with them and it's both distracting and inappropriate. So smile away in the forums, where you can smilies/wink.gif

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Heavens, yes! I use them all the time on the forum, I didn't intend to convey that. Just that I'd been brought to a startling awareness of how prevalent they were in my random bits of writing. smilies/confused.gif

[Annalaliath]

I use them rarely, if at all. I don't mind them if they don't end up in all of a persons posts that is when it gets anoying. I think that I have used a whole of at least 2 maybe 3 of them the whole time I have been on the downs.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Question for the X Phial, I saw you use the abbreviation IIRC somewhere? What does it mean?