The most Tolkien-Oriented music you make

[mark12_30]

Middle-Earth Loving, Tolkien-Addicted Musicians: Here are some Tolkien related things to discuss.

1. What about the music that you make, most reflects your love of Tolkien? Why does it reflect your love of Tolkien? Specifically how does it reflect Middle-Earth?

2. Is there something musical (for example specific songs, a musical style, an instrument) you want to learn in order to be more Middle-Earthy, and why? (Why is VERY important, be descriptive: does a certain M-E character remind you of it, a certain place or moment, etc.)

3. Are there specific Tolkien songs in the books that you desperately want the tunes/ music for but don't know where to find them/ can't afford them? Post their names here, and any other pertinent information (such as for a specific instrument) and see if anybody on the thread can help you find them, online or otherwise.

[tifo_gcs]

What I like about the Irish music that I play is the relaxed atmosphere it brings. It's music for drinking, dancing and partying. Pour a pint and enjoy yourself, it's pub music. My band is actually considering sticking the small tune from Bilbo's Birthday Party into our repetoire.
Irish music has the friendliness of hobbits, and at the same time a well played pipe or whistle tune can change the character of them music completely, and then you've got Frodo standing on some mountaintop in the middle of the Emyn Muil feeling very lost and alone.

[mark12_30]

Are there any specific peices that remind you of specific places or people? I can think of a few right off but there must be many more. "The Full Rigged Ship" reminds me of the havens, in a perky sort of way. "The Dark Island" reminds me of Lorien, in a way. "Road to the Isles" seems like something Bilbo would sing while he is out walking. How about you?

I think celtic music lends itself very easily to a lot of Tolkien's people andplaces. Hobbits, Bombadil, and any of the elves (but especially the Mirkwood elves, the simpler more rustic types) seem like they would enjoy celtic music (and produce it.) I think even the numenoreans would like celtic music although I don't know if it would be their main style...

The very celtic flavor of "Concerning Hobbits" from the FOTR soundtrack always seemed very right to me. Has anybody learned to play that, and on what instrument?

[tifo_gcs]

The tin-whistle player who performs on the soundtrack is a big up-and coming star in Ireland. For a tin-whistle player, I think it's an easy piece to play. though I've never tried to play it myself.
Re: Numenoreans, I think it would be more harp-like music, such as O'Carolan's music and the like. Quiet, regal, elegant.
I recommend you find a band called Nickel Creek and listen to their track "In the House of Tom Bombadil. The rhythm changes and the changes of pace and mood in the music seem to me to be pretty close to old Bombadil himself, although the pace seems to quick for his leisurely being. I think I'll spend my weekend looking for more musical stuff, as I rather like this topic.

[mark12_30]

My band is actually considering sticking the small tune from Bilbo's Birthday Party into our repetoire.


I missed that first time thru, sorry! I thought the tune had promise, although repetitive. You could do the usual trick of making it part of a set. I wonder if there are other LOTR themes that would go well in a set like that?

Alasdair Fraser frequently takes airs (or even, sometimes, laments) and speeds them up into reels (or vice versa.) There's one place (Skyedance) where he plays what sounds like a lament, then another tune, then plays the first tune as a speedy reel. It hardly seems like the same tune but it is. I wonder if that would work for other LOTR themes. When you do it with a lament, you get a wild melancholy in the dance. Very celtic.

[tifo_gcs]

It's not that much simpler than most celtic tunes. the misfortune is that the b- part is drowned out by crowd noises and dialogue.
I don't think that the theme from the Fellowship of The Ring could be sped up. Too many long notes, if you ask me. I don't know about The Two Towers, because I don't have the soundtrack to that one, but the theme from Rohan seems much more Norse to me. High, thin violin solo, not so melodic. Seems a bit like the score to 13th Warrior. but generally i mourned the lack of background music in The Two Towers (though the sound system setup was åretty bad no matter where I saw it)

[dragoneyes]

The very celtic flavor of "Concerning Hobbits" from the FOTR soundtrack always seemed very right to me. Has anybody learned to play that, and on what instrument?

I tried teaching myself to play it on the tuba but it doesn't sound quite right, I should probably stick to working out the base lines. I then tried to play it on the trombone but it doesn't really lend itself to the lower-ranged instruments of the brass section. I'm going to try it on the recorder next but I have a feeling it won't have the range required.

There are some piano pieces I play which, in my opinion, sound Elvish. The sound of the instrument itself doesn't really suit Middle Earth though.

If I were to take up another instrument it would probably be the flute. I would prefer the clarinet because I know the dwarves played them but I've tried to play one before and was hopeless at it. My second choice would be the violin but I know how terrible they can sound when they're not played properly.

[mark12_30]

Hey, Dragoneyes! Good to see you. I think the recorder wouild be just fine for that song; there's one part on the soundtrack where I think the tune is carried by a recorder or something that sounds prety similar to it. You can get to the second octave on the recorder, right? Check the fingering charts if you have any questions, some of 'em are a ittle wierd.

I have the BBC recording of LOTR, thirteen cd's, which I bought essentially for the music. However I was rather bummed. The BBC version of what the tunes would sound like just didn't do it for me in many cases. My imagination tends much more toward the celtic or scandinavian than they did. But the "Bilbo's Last Song" at the end, with the choir boy, has possibilities.

[Lindril Arvilya]

The very celtic flavor of "Concerning Hobbits" from the FOTR soundtrack always seemed very right to me. Has anybody learned to play that, and on what instrument?


I can whistle most of the themes from the soundtrack. My friend Sandy hums it and I whistle. Quite impressive, really.

[tifo_gcs]

Dragoneyes, the recorder would be perfect for playing the hobbit-dance. It sounds like its recorder on a tin-whistle, so no problems there. If you want to pick up another instrument without tutoring, I recommend an instrument with frets or where the notes don't go awry if you mess up slightly. eg, Mandolin, guitar, possibly piano, flute, recorder. Instruments that are fretless or require large amounts of intonation, trombone and violin as example, aren't easy to master unless you have a teacher (neither is the piano but at least you can see the notes on the keyboard). How many instruments do you actually play?
Mark12_30, the BBC recordings you mention, is that just the sounds from the movies or is it something different?

[dragoneyes]

I tried 'Concerning Hobbits' on the recorder, both the tenor and treble, but as I feared the range wasn't enough to play it all the way through, if only the recorder went a semitone lower.

tifo_gcs, thankyou for the tips but I would need to start by getting one of the instruments and they aren't cheap. I play four instruments, five if you include church bells but they would be percussion.

[mark12_30]

Dragoneyes, have you ever transcribed something? ...I'm curious now what the range of the tune is.

[dragoneyes]

I don't tend to write music down, no. But the recorder has a range of low C to high D meaning that, in that key, it should go from B to D. Did that make any sense or answer your question at all?

EDIT: actually, listening to it again, the violin (or is it a viola?) goes even lower than that. So I'm not a very reliable source.

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: dragoneyes ]

[mark12_30]

Dragoneyes, sorry, I meant transposed. Changed the key of the music.

tifo_gcs, Sorry I missed this question first time thru:

Mark12_30, the BBC recordings you mention, is that just the sounds from the movies or is it something different?

It's an audio production, dramatized for the radio, with lots of actors voicing the characters. Ian Holmes (movie Bilbo) does Frodo... and apparently Holmes doesn't like to sing, because he turns down some wonderful opportunities (argh!) Anyway, there are 13 cds. They are enjoyable. (They do Faramir more justice than the movies, for instance.) But the music just... isn't... well, the tunes aren't something I am dying to learn or play.

After a manner o' speakin'-- they didn't strike a chord in me.

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[tifo_gcs]

Dragoneyes: OK, I guess I don't need to tell you how to approach another instrument if you already play five. And I agre, musical instruments are expensive. But if you want to play concerning hobbits, get yourself a tin-whistle. The cheapest cost about 7 dollars (rough currency exchange calculation). That's most likely what its been recorded with, and should have the proper range. But be aware that they come in different keys.
When you say the recorder goes to high D, do you mean the D fingered with only second hole covered and all others open or an octave higher thatn that?
Mark12: Any idea where I might get a hold of a sample from that BBC production? And how much music is there actually in it?

[mark12_30]

tifo: you might check your local library. THe BBC production has been arund for a while and is now (because of the movies) quite popular. I've seen lots of them on ebay.

How much music... oh, not THAT much. Somebody on this board somewhere (brain like sieve smilies/rolleyes.gif ) said that once upon a time there was a tape available of just the music. That was what i really wanted, but it wouldn't have been worth it; actually the a"acting" is better than the music, IMO.

dragoneyes: Are you able to get the second octave out of your recorder? It's easier on a tinwhistle. I completely agree with tifo-- no musician should be without a tinwhistle; they're indestructable (friend of mine dropped one down a cliff-- undamaged.) You can take 'em just about anywhere. It would have been "the Middle-Earth instrument of choice" for rangers and elves, and probably hobbits too, at least travelling hobbits. (Too small and delicate for dwawrves?) Get a "D" for your first one. (I've got a D, C, and G. At seven bucks apeice...)

[tifo_gcs]

hmm, given as I live in Denmark I doubt it'll be easy to find in english. On the other hand my friend has a few selected songs on a mix tape somwhere that are really well done, including "The Road Goes Ever On and On." It seems to me that a lot of what Tolkien writes is good for the "poet and a one man band" singer-songwriter type of person, especially his songs on travelling and living life.
Going back to an earlier point about specific Celtic tunes. I haven't found any in my collection that remind me of certain instances in LOTR, but I do find some that put me in the mood. Acoustic string music is pretty much the best background music for reading the books, if you like music while you're reading.

[tifo_gcs]

Dragoneyes: I went home and tinkered around on the mandolin and came up with the following for 'Concerning Hobbits.' it ranges from D (all six fringers on the recorder) to high D, on the tin-whistle bits.
the A part from the fiddle ranges from E (first five fingers) to high F#, and octave higher (or else its high A#, my memory sucks). There is a small B part that I don't think you can reach on a recorder.
Does this sound plausible to anyone else and/or does anyone have the musical score? It would make things much simpler

[Neferchoirwen]

I remember the music played by the elves that Frodo and Sam sort of bumped into in the extended version. The music they were playing was quite exotic and eerie...

Recently, I bought a cd by Loreena McKennit, and the 4th track, I think, (relatively new...can't remember the title) sounded like what those elves were playing. The track had a Turkish sufi feel, which was exotic enough.

And I'm extremely curious about Viggo's rendition of Luthien's song. I feel that it won't come out in any recording, but parts of it from the extended dvd sounded yummy. Hope that rendition comes out on the market one way or the other.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

There is one cord in a piece that I play that extremely reminds me of one of the songs on the LotR movie soundtrack. And I play some of the somgs from the movies. That's it, I guess. Oh and I imagine Tolkien scenes for every piece that I play, and it's much more fun that way.

[Beren87]

I've written a few songs, one of my friends is currently setting it to a chello piece. It's about the arriving of the Noldor in ME.

http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/person/djsi.gif
Yep.., that's me, mix-master Matt.

[Luinalatawen]

I can play a little of the theme from the movies on the piano. I got the first page from www.musicnotes.com, (http://www.musicnotes.com,) but figured out the rest on my own. Last year for marching band at school, the theme of our music was Lord of the Rings! One of the songs we played was from the movies, the other was the DeMaij (spelling?-). It was so exciting! So I can play basic passages from those on the flute and piccolo. I'd love to play "Concerning Hobbits" too. I think I'll try to figure it out sometime.

[tifo_gcs]

The only pieces of music that I'd actually like to play from the soundtrack are Concerning Hobbtis and the Hobbit Dance from Bilbo's party. Both are simple enough that you should be able to figure them out if you have a good ear. Generally, the bombastic main theme really doesn't lend itself to being played Celtic style, unfortunately.
And I had no idea that Viggo Mortensen can actually sing, I'll have to borrow the extended edition from one of my friends and check it out

[peony_foxburr]

Then there's the instrument we were all born with--the voice smilies/smile.gif. Very few people are truly tone deaf, IMO, though we don't all get encouragement or minimal training, which is a shame. Anyhow, that's the most Tolkinesque music I make at the moment, though I fiddle around with the alto recorder now and then. The piano doesn't sound at all ME, I agree. Though I heard some harpsichord on the LotR soundtrack--and you could probably get that, plus some other suitable sounds, from a digital keyboard. Years ago, my sister gave me a copy of "The Road Goes Ever On, A Song Cycle" which was some of the Tolkien songs & poems set to music by Donald Swann (of an English comedy/musical revue team called Flanders&Swann). Not at all Celtic-flavored, but an interesting musical take nonetheless.

[Luinalatawen]

Since my previous post on this thread, I've found the piano music books for both FotR and TTT. Alas, I have learned only one of the songs in its entirety. But what do you expect from someone who has taught herself the piano? After I've actually have some lessons in my upcoming freshman year of college, I'm sure I'll be able to play lots more of the songs.

[Linnamalle]

I think a combination of being self-taught and having lessons is the best! I imagine that's how most hobbits were... After all, once he came back to the Shire, who taught Bilbo all the elvish he afterwards learned? He must have had a combination of self-taught (rummaging thru scrolls) and loitering with the elves under the trees as they sang in the woods. Oh, dear, I envy Bilbo that. And Frodo.

But we can still learn from their example! At least, that's what I tell myself. A good mix of listening and reading!

Has anyone else bought the CDs by The Tolkien Ensemble? I have one, and two more on order. Some of those songs are quite nice.

[Genevieve]

I play the violin, and I figured out how to play the Rohan theme. And I figured out some other song too, but I can't remember what it was. smilies/frown.gif I'm trying to find any elvish sounding songs. Some symphony songs remind me of Rivendell and the Shire as well. I'll ahve to search to see what songs they were. SOrry I can't be so specific. smilies/frown.gif

[QuickSlash]

1. For me.. it's not so much a love of Tolkein, but definitely a love of Middle Earth, most specifically there, the elves. They were a beautiful people, a beautiful race. Some of the higher parts of things I (try to) write sound sort of Elvish.

2. I'm too tired to be VERY specific, but I'm trying to learn things (chords) that sound great for guitar that would eventually lead to Elvish music (such as tracks nine and early ten on the FotR soundtrack). The guitar tuning for Celtic music is DADGAD, I learned not that long ago. I haven't done much with it on my axe, but the little my teacher did was beautiful.

3. I'm trying to learn Kashmir, by Led Zeppelin. Heh. I have the tab, it's just a matter of practice.

And, I really want some Celitc music. I live over in the States, and about all I've found locally is Enya. Anything specific I could possibly buy online?

[ August 06, 2003: Message edited by: QuickSlash ]

[Arwen1858]

I know this is kinda old, but as I love music, I wanted to revive it. I'm learning to play the guitar, and it's my first instrument. I also have a recorder and tin whistle which I play around with, and want to get better at.
I figured out how to flatpick The Road Goes Ever On on the guitar. I'm listening to TTT soundtrack, which I bought today, and it's so beautiful!
Anyways, some Irish dance music I have reminds me of something Hobbits would dance to. And some slower Irish music reminds me of the Elves. Especially the cd with the harps on it. It just sounds Elvish to me.
Well, just thought I'd add that in there!
Arwen

[mark12_30]

Too bad we're scattered across the world... sounds like we could put a pretty cool band together. Violins, pennywhistles, recorders... guitars... piano... this could be good. We could start with Peony acapella and go from there.

Arwen, do you sing? Harmonies... Hey, keyboards are portable, and the cheaper ones can run on D-cells (mine's from Radio Shack smilies/rolleyes.gif ... but really, it sounds fine thru an amp... ) We could even go out and jam in the woods.

[Arwen1858]

Arwen, do you sing?
Don't all Elves?? smilies/biggrin.gif
But seriously though, yes, I do. I do so love music! And playing with other people is the best, because you have all the instruments coming together, and it's wonderful!!

[Ainaserkewen]

Music pulses through my veins at every moment, every sound of movement I hear are my muses for when I write my melodies down. After all, sounds are the soundtrack of life.
Middle-earth is an especially good place to find beautiful sounds, musics, poetries and anything else that inspires and soothes the soul. When I'm writing, I often think of the long rolling hills of the shire or the bleak, stone silent walls of Gondor. The pictures inspire my writing, and my music gives the pictures more depth and colour.

Mostly I play brass instruments, so if I do write for them, and my theme is something middle-earthish, I tend to write broad fanfares that I imagine would be played by the silver trumpets of Gondor, praising the new morning. I do play piano as well, where all my music is originally born. I don't write much for piano, but if I did, I believe I would write some kind of piano/violin duet, and it would be inspired, I think, Ithilien, it's cool trees playing the voice-like melodies of the violin, and the piano being the wind that gently caresses and pushes the tree melody.

I also sing...and I love the great pure voices on the FOTR soundtrack, I love to sing along with the music.

If anything reminds me more of middle-earth, it's celtic. It's the green fields and the fast running rivers that sing the bright clean uplifting melodies of celtic.

This topic is totally up my alley, loved participating.

[Horse-Maiden of the Shire]

I play the trumpet, and I tried to teach myself some songs from the movies, but it didn't feel right. I think I'll try to find some pieces on the internet or something. Last year a band came to our school and they played a few pieces from Fellowship of the Ring splendidly. Personally, I would like to learn to play the violin and play the lovely piece from Two Towers in the track Riders of Rohan. Sends chills through me everytime I listen to it. smilies/smile.gif

[Ainaserkewen]

I played some LOTR(Band modified) stuff. It was fine, but it lacked 75% of the original instruments. And nomatter how good they are, clarinets DO NOT sound like violins.

[Thenamir]

What an interesting topic! I really need to spend more time here at the fora.

I am a self-taught musician, from the time I managed to pick out my older-sister's two-hand practice pieces on our family piano at the age of 7. I play piano and other keyboard instruments reasonably well, and I have also taught myself guitar. I have some basic proficiency on the trombone, although nothing to brag about. More practice!

The "Concerning Hobbits" theme is not hard to follow, but difficult to arrange for a single instrument like the piano or guitar, as are most of the other movie-soundtrack themes from LOTR. I prefer to layer in several instruments using my Cakewalk software on my computer. The soundcard I have, however, produces barely-adequate results, and I am saving my pennies for a decent sound card or external MIDI keyboard which has higher-quality instrument-sound reproduction.

Someone mentioned a band using all our talents, and it spawned an interesting (but perhaps impractical) idea. Each of us could play (or play along with) a selected section of the soundtrack using his/her computer's recording software and a cheap microphone. Then someone with a computer and the right software, and more spare time than I currently have, could take e-mailed .wav files from each of us on a selected theme, and layer/merge them into a single wav or mp3 file. Voila! Instant orchestra!

There are of course, several logistical and practical issues involved with such an undertaking, such as which theme to use, what sections to play, how to keep everyone in-tune and in-time (tweaking an out-of-tune or out-of-sync instrument is fairly easy using Cakewalk). But it would be a *really* fascinating exercise.

I wish I could volunteer to be the nexus of such a project, but work and family issues would make it impossible for me. Anyone want to step forward?

[Lady Alasse]

I have the music to "Gollum's Song" for piano! Its really pretty! I love all the music in the LotR movies, but I don't have any of the sound tracks.

I've written music for the poem at the beginning of TTT. The one where Aragorn and Legolas are sing as they send Boromir down over the Falls. My Piano teacher really liked it! Thats my favorite poem in all the books.

As you have probably guessed I'm a piano player. I also love to sing.

Hmmm. Music that reminds me of LotR... I recently checked out "The Secret Garden" soundtrack from a local library. It really reminded me of the kind of music a hobbit would have... specially "A bit of Earth".

[lord_of_rohan2003]

Hey you all might want to check these guys out.http://www.tolkienenensemble.dk/

This group takes songs and poetry from LOTR and makes music,they have some samples on their webpage with a reading from Chritopher Lee doing "A warning of Winter"

So go check them out there a really good group.

[mark12_30]

Thenamir, I like your idea. I can't volunteer, though...

The other idea I had was to assemble regioal jam sessions... New England Middle-Earth Jam... (NEMEJ..?) Anyway, we could agree on several sets of tunes, and the keys we'd play in, and then "moot" and play.

Of course, that raises all the issues about minors, etc.

But what the heck, I'll start a list. For my money:

Anything on "The Starlit Jewel" album (I bought the music book, too)

Half of the stuff by Tolkien Ensemble (some of it's too hard, some of it doesn't sit right, some of it is absolutely fabulously wonderful...)

One or two cuts off of Andi Grimsditch's new album

Some of the old Donald Swann classics (okay, but I like 'em)

Maybe even one or two of the old Rankin/Bass songs, especially from The Hobbit (Tra La La Lally... I like it... okay, so nobody else does...)

And let's not forget:
May It Be (Enya)
Into The West (Lennox)
Fellowship Going South (Leslie Fish)


More to come... I've made a master list (excel spreadsheet) of all the Tolkien songs I have, because I'm going to try and work up several sets that I can play myself. I'm in the process of picking (what I consider to be) the most Tolkien-like, Middle-Earthy version of the songs which have more than one. I should probably post the list here, and see what other people think.

(Problem is, the spreadsheet is several towns away... )

[Ainaserkewen]

The "Concerning Hobbits" theme is not hard to follow, but difficult to arrange for a single instrument like the piano or guitar
I hear you, I've been playing around with that song on the piano ever since I got the soundtrack. It's coming along, but you're right, you can't do everything at once, and the arpeggio's in the background are hard to add.

[Nurumaiel]

I admit I did notice this thread before now but never really felt up to posting. But after an hour of singing and imagining I was playing my tin whistle, as it was not immediately available, I think I could participate a bit.

I taught myself a few tunes from the FotR soundtrack and can play them fairly well on the tin whistle, and I'm mastering the Rohan theme from tTT currently. Every so often I'll play around a bit and make up some tunes, though I've never bothered to write them down, nor placed them to any particular scene in LotR. I've often considered picking up one of the books, opening it to a random spot and creating a nice, fitting tune for the scene, but have never got around to it.

About a year back I spent a little time writing LotR songs and putting them to old Irish tunes, or giving Tolkien's own poems/songs tunes, though I'd never thought of them as anything other than the tunes you'll hear on the BBC radio version. I also very much enjoyed adapting various Irish ballads so they would seem as Middle-Earth ballads.

Your idea, Helen, of putting together a band would be rather amusing... if not absolutely wonderful. Such a pity that many miles and high waves are between all the BD musicians! The Barrow-Downers, or perhaps the Wights, would be fine names for such a band! Singing and playing genuine Middle-Earth songs and tunes. smilies/wink.gif

And, as a closing note, I am quite pleased to meet all my fellow musicians, though some of you I do already know.

[mark12_30]

Nuru: totally love your sig...

That master list I mentioned earier, in very rough draft form, ishere (http://members.cox.net/hrwright61/TolkienSongList.htm). There is another list (MUCH shorter) that I intend to learn...

[Nurumaiel]

Helen,
Yes, it's an altogether grand song, and one of my favorites. However, to get back on the subject...

That's quite a long list! I wish you the best of luck with the songs you shall learn. Any idea what you'll do for tunes? I would find it quite fascinating to, rather than applying tunes from other songs to Tolkien songs, actually compose your own tunes. Maybe I can try a bit of that today. I always did want a tune for the Lament for Boromir.

While we're on the topic of learning Tolkien's songs, here (http://galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl/~szymon/Tolkien/) is a site that has the words to verses in LotR, which can come in handy. Much easier than flipping through the book, I think! However it does cause a bit of a problem while trying to compose a song for the tune if you're not quite sure of the situation alreayd. Does anyone know of a site that has not just the verses from LotR but all Tolkien's works?

[mark12_30]

Nuru! Hi! Good to see you!

The list I posted is a list of (mostly) songs that people have performed WITH tunes. The second column is the CD author (or in some cases, the fact that its an MP3 I got online somplace, either a sample or a freebie, as is the case for the Donald Swann collection.)

If you're curious, I could make a list of the CDs that I bought to asssemble the list. There are a few more on order.

More later, must catch the bus! Good to see you, Nuru!

The distilling-down (which I am in the process of) involves choosing, when there are multiple versions, which version I feel is the most Tolkienish/ MiddleEarthy. (And by the way, that I'll be able to sing myself. Half of the Tolkien Ensemble stuff- nope, no can do.)

[mark12_30]

Musicians might be interested in a thread I started in Novices and Newcomers called Middle-Earth Music Reviews (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=002764#000011). Oddly enough no one has reviewed the Soundtracks yet! Feel free to do so. I'd also like to see reviews of music BOOKS there. Hmm, think I'll go add a format for that one too...

Who has been playing what these days? I'm about to go sit by the woodstove with a Pennywhistle and figure out a few tunes. Dragoneyes, I'll start with Concerning Hobbits...

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:38 PM January 23, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Orominuialwen]

I'm very glad to have found this thread! I play the violin and a bit of the mandolin (I don't own one, though). I have the FotR piano sheet music and Gollum's song. I've also taught myself to play the Rohan theme from TTT, although it's in the wrong key. I can also play the Gondor theme from RotK (it's closest to what you hear on The White Tree). Has anybody ever heard of the band Bare Necessities? They play English Country Dance music, which is mostly from the late 1600's to the early 1800's. One song they play, called The Ragg, is very Hobbitish.

[mark12_30]

tifo, Arwen, Nuru, Peony, AND Dragoneyes, (And Imladris if you're checking) I had fun with the Pennywhistle (tinwhistle) last night, and got thru May It Be, Concerning Hobbits (what I remembered, I played the choir-boy version) and Into the West. I couldn't remember enough of the Rohan theme to keep it going more than a line or two. I'd better learn how to hum it, and then try again...

Dragoneyes, to do some of those you do need the second octave on the Recorder. It's shrill; but it's there. Easier on a Pennywhistle! But if you love the Recorder it's worth learning. Peony, can you help with that? Do you have fingerings for the second octave of the Recorder? (I need 'em too)

Orominuialwen -- Bare Necessities is a WONDERFUL band. They played at the Concord contradance (at least once that I remember-- eh, that was 1986 or so) and Peter (the Piano player) absolutely hynotized me with his Pennywhistle playing... (tune is running thru my head now...) he looked like an elf, but he definitely played like a hobbit. Yes. Great band.

Violin and mandolin-- nice! I fiddled too, back in the '80s. Scottish. I was convinced that Scotland was the closest thing to Middle-Earth. (I think the Highland Fling and the Foursome Reel would be instinctive for any hobbit, don't you?)

Peony, you said that the piano is not very Middle-Earthish. While I'd agree with that, I think it is VERY Tolkienish. It is the ultimate Edwardian Drawing Room instrument. Just look at Tolkien's delight in Donald Swann's work-- he LOVED it. To some of us it sounds inappropriate to M-E but I think we forget that was the style Tolkien grew up with. My grandparents played music like that! All the time!

So, in one sense, it may not be particularly elvish, the piano; and yet in another, I think the denizens of Middle-Earth would have taken to it like a duck takes to water. I certainly wouldn't be shy about playing ME music on the piano. One of my favorite peices by Tolkien Ensemble is their version of Luthien, "The Leaves were Long, the Grass was green." Drawing Room piano. Magnificent. Even thought its accompanied by piano, it still sounds to me like it's from Rivendell with Aragorn singing...

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 2:37 PM January 24, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[mark12_30]

Amateur online guitar chords (Wheee!) for:
into the west (http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/l/lennox_annie/into_the_west_crd.htm)
may it be (http://www.tabcrawler.com/archive.php?action=view&file_id=14457)

[Aiwendil]

For any that are interested, I recently wrote an essay (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=14562) on the music of Middle-earth for an event hosted by one of the guilds over at The Tolkien Forum.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:28 PM January 24, 2004: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[mark12_30]

Essay, Aiwendil? You mean book?? I'm printing it out so I can snuggle up to the woodstove with it. More later! Looks fascinating.

[Aiwendil]

Hmm . . . I guess it is a bit lengthy. I must say it's not the best thing I've ever written. I think I had some interesting ideas, but I wrote it in a hurry and it's thus a bit disorganized. Nonetheless, it was fun.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 9:33 PM January 24, 2004: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[mark12_30]

Aiwendil: to be blunt, I thought your essay was spot-on, brilliant, canonical, and over the heads of most of us. Thank God you included the musical glossary at the end. (Put it at the beginning!)
Seriously, for maximum impact, I'd add a set of links, with soundbyte-samples of each style of music you are referring to. Bach I know, but who is Palestrina, and what does his work sound like? It took me a moment to sort thru Polyphony, Homophony, and monophony; once I knew Poly- and Mono-, but Homo- threw me for a complete loop.

Anyway, more to the point: Tolkien's world DOES emphasize loss of grandeur and sophistication, leading to decay and simplification. I thought you supported your arguments brilliantly; a magnificent essay. Are you interested in producing a simpler version for the rest of us to grasp, while leaving the sophisticated original intact?

[Aiwendil]

Cross-posting, alas.

I'm glad you liked it. I became aware of what you point out as I was writing it: that it requires more knowledge of music theory than I had at first thought, and that it would benefit from an accompanying library of musical examples. Unfortunately, I don't know of any suitable online libraries, and I don't have webspace to put up the examples myself. But perhaps it would be worthwhile for me to search the internet for suitable clips.

Anyway, thanks for enthusiastic response! The reception at TTF has been lukewarm - due, no doubt, to my inability to avoid using so much music theory terminology.

[mark12_30]

Does Amazon have any Palestrina CDs? They usually have clips for a few of the cuts at least. You could get some chant clips there too; also Bach; and maybe whatever else you needed.

Faure's Requiem is BLISS, and strikes me as very Middle-Earthy indeed.

Do you think the Anulindale sounded anything like Handel's Messiah? smilies/biggrin.gif Or perhaps Beethoven's Ninth, w/ Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee... plus counterpoint?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 9:53 PM January 24, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Aiwendil]

Amazon is a great idea - I never thought of it. If I get a chance later, I'll add some relevant links.

I think that parts of The Messiah are very appropriate for the Ainulindale. I mentioned Bach a lot and Handel not at all, but that's only because Bach's style epitomizes late Baroque counterpoint in a way that Handel's doesn't. But of course their styles are very similar.

Beethoven's ninth symphony is something that I've often thought sounded like the music of the Ainur. I didn't mention it in the essay because I have no basis for that belief at all; it's just a personal fancy. But if you think the same thing, perhaps there is something too it. The first two movements of the symphony in particular suggest Creation to me.

[mark12_30]

I think the reason Ode to Joy/ Ninth reminds me so much of the Ainulindale is that it's so thunderously powerful and at the same time so harmonious. It's not muddy (like Brahms), it's good "clean" classical (I like my triads, thank you) and yet it's not (watch this) homophony (wow, I used it); there's a bit of counterpoint-ish stuff going on. So it's woven music, still, but harmonically clean and *so* thunderous. Musical power at its best.

I love Tchaikowsky; it's full of elvish dances, and some hobbit-dances too (especially Sleeping Beauty) and his Waltz of the Snowflakes could have been sung by elves; but none of his stuff ever struck me as Ainulindale-ish...

Do you know "The Cygnets" from Swan Lake? Sometimes elves dance that, sometimes dwarves. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Aiwendil]

I've added links to pages at Amazon with relevant samples, as per your suggestion. Thanks again.

I agree about Beethoven's ninth. Beethoven managed to be Romantic (and revolutionary) while still retaining the Classical ideals, and that combination makes for some pretty good music. And you're right, it's not just homophonic. As a matter of fact very few works are strictly homophonic - but the earlier pure Classical style was generally rather highly homophonic. Beethoven was, as a matter of fact, never fully comfortable with full-fledged contrapuntal writing; for him it was hard work and did not come naturally. But the work paid off. In the 4th movement of the Ninth Symphony, for example, there are two fugues (a fugue is a rather rigid, complex form of polyphonic writing). Beethoven's Ninth Symphony has got to be one of the greatest things produced by humanity.

I can indeed imagine some bits of Tchaikowsky as "Elvish", though certainly not all of his stuff. It's been a while since I've listened to Swan Lake, though.

[mark12_30]

Aiwendil, thanks for putting those links in! As soon as I have time to check them all out, I will. And I'm looking forward to it.

Before I read your essay I was hoping it wasn't like others I'd read, which went for over-simplification... VERY glad to see I was wrong!

I'm going to make one more suggestion... which won't be easy for you as a writer but would make it much esasier for the reader, I think. How about providing an opening point-by-point thesis declaration?

In doing so, you would be laying your roadmap early, and declaring your destination; which always feels like you are giving away your thunder-- but actually makes your thunder much more understandable by the time you get to it. In addition, an opening thesis declaration would allow you a good place for earlier definitions of polyphony, homophony, and monophony which would make the *entire* thesis much more readable.

With that structure firmly in place, I'd start recommending the essay to everyone I knew that was Middle_Earth-Music inclined! In some manner, it belongs in the Middle-Earth Music Reviews; in a way, it's a review of everything out there. Hmmm, food for thought.

Anyway-- Please, Aiwendil, please seriously consider such a revision... If you like, I'll very gladly help you construct the thesis paragraph. I've become a big fan of your ideas and I would like them to be easier to understand-- and I think they really can be.

(And then post the WHOLE THING here.) (And send it to TheOneRing.net too.)

Can you tell I like it?

Let me know if I can assist you with a succinct opening thesis paragraph. I'd be thrilled.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:12 AM January 27, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[mark12_30]

Dragoneyes and other Recorder-meisters: Since Concerning Hobbits **must** be playable on a Recorder, and the perky parts required a few more high notes than I knew the fingerings for, I wanted a recorder fingering chart.

(I have a pennywhistle chart already: Pennywhistle (http://members.cox.net/hrwright61/pennyw.htm): for the second octave, just blow harder...)

Soooo--- Yesterday I bought a recorder that came with a handy fingering chart. Thrills! The gist of it is this: for the second octave, the fingerings are pretty similar to the first octave except for the thumbhole (on the back at the top.) To get most of the second octave you just slide your thumb 1/3 to 1/4 of the way off the hole. In other words you let a little teeny bit of air out of the thumbhole-- not much at all-- just 1/4 of the hole. And then you blow harder.

Try it when you're alone, because it's challenging at first (squeeeee-honk) but once you get it it's not bad. The main thing is 1/4 opening under the thumb, and then breath control; for high notes the breath has to push more from your gut, like singing high notes. Both come from your abdomen...

So anyway, buying the recorder was worth it just for the fingering chart-- and now I have an extra plastic recorder anyway. ($3.99-- music has never been so cheap! Everyone should have one at that price.)

So, Middle-Earth Recorder-Meisters, both current and aspiring, I will try to post a complete fingering chart one of these days. (what's elvish for Meister, I wonder...?)

Next question: We've got Guitar players, piano players, flute/pennywhistle/recorder players... brass-players... We need elvish names for 'em all. I guess the flute/whistle/recorder players can be honorary Daerons. Any harpists out there?

Incidentally, a quiet, unassuming, not-bad-little-beginner's-harp can be easily made from two-by-fours, nails, screw-eyes, a couple of rods, and some heavy fish string (hundred-pound test is best, but whatever.)

harp (http://members.cox.net/hrwright61/harp.html)

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:51 AM January 27, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Imladris]

Aaargh!!!! I should have visited this thread a long time ago. Thanks to mark 12_30 for telling me about it. smilies/smile.gif

So, I play the piano and I can probably still play the flute a little bit...

The poem about Nimrodel is my favourite piece of poetry by Tolkien, and I wanted to start composing a piece for it...but where to begin? I've only had a beginners music theory class and I have no idea what to do for the different themes (Nimrodel and Amroth).

Where can one find a penny whistle? The instrument sounds fascinating.

[mark12_30]

I can hear the strains of Concerning Hobbits across the internet now... Imladris, most decent music stores carry Pennywhistles, if they carry acoustic instruments at all. They should be around ten bucks or less; if the store charges more than that, you gotta wonder about the store.

I like Oak (in D) (http://www.whistleanddrum.com/Oak%20Classic%20Pennywhistle.html) or Generation, here (http://www.knockonwood.co.uk/instruments_results.asp?CategoryID=18&offset=20) (or here (http://www.grothmusic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-F537X.html?E+scstore). Whatever brand you choose get it in the key of D. I've got an oak D and a Generation D. I also have a Generation in G, because it's little and therefore cute (and shrill too.)

But there are lots of different brands.

In terms of composing your own themes for Nimrodel and Amroth (what a WONDERFUL idea)--improvisation can be a good place to start. Just get alone with your instrument, make stuff up as you go, and see what happens. Whiel I was at it, I'd pray for inspiration too (God is good at stuff like that.) smilies/wink.gif smilies/cool.gif

Here's an interesting page: Sessioneer Web Site, (http://www.sessioneer.org/default.asp) Click on the lefthand menu and look for "Tin Whistle Guide." Looks like lots of good info there. Way more than I know!!!

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 9:50 PM January 27, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Imladris]

Many thanks, mark 12_30 for the info on the penny whistles and the advice for Nimrodel and Amroth...I shall be alone for two hours tomorrow.... smilies/evil.gif

On a side note, on the first page you told us to mention a song that reminded you of ME. Well, Edvard Grieg wrote a song called In the Hall of the Mountain King . Now besides it being an awesome title, it instantly brings to my mind the image of Thorin Oakenshield. The song itself is amazing: it starts off softly with a lilting pattern. Slowly the same theme repeats with a base towards the middle and some cellos or fiddles before it surges into a powerful burst of music with drums. The same soft theme is there, but it's like thunder in the distance underneath the soft theme. It ends in a collage of drums. This reminds me of dwarves: I can see them delving in a deep mountain hammering metal and stuff....the only problem is I think the piece was used in Fantasia so occasionally a wizard crowned Mickey Mouse interferes. smilies/tongue.gif

[Aiwendil]

mark12_30: Hmm . . . I thought I had actually made my intent clear fairly early on in the essay. The thesis is basicly:

Perhaps we ought to imagine the music of Middle-earth as declining through the ages, so that the songs of Gondor are but echoes of the songs of Numenor; and those are but echoes of the songs of the Eldar in Aman. If we view the music of Middle-earth in this way, the situation becomes the reverse of the one we were considering above. Perhaps it does not represent the time at which polyphony was overtaking monophony; perhaps it represents the time at which polyphony was giving way to monophony, declining into monophony. Perhaps the evolution of music in the Renaissance ought to be thought of as the rediscovery of techniques and practices that were lost with the decline of Men and the departure of the Elves.

I suppose that, with the alteration of a few pronouns that lose their antecedents out of context, that could serve as an opening thesis declaration.

Did you have something different in mind? I'd be happy to hear your suggestion.

[mark12_30]

That is a good starting place, although there is much in your essay that is not foretold in that paragraph. I will look at it some more tomorrow.

The thesis is your opinion, your interpretation of the facts; that's a given. You needn't reiterate that it's your opinion. SO take out all the "perhaps'es" and replace them with a firm If-then statement, in which the "Then" has three parts. I;m thinking of something like this:

The culture of Arda begins in complexity and progresses through decline to simplicity. If we assume that the music of Middle-Earth follows the same pattern, then (first point) The Third Age represents the time at which the polyphony of the first and second age was declining into monophony;(second point) the First Age is then a decline from the music of the Ainur; and (third point) the evolution of music in our Renaissance ought to be thought of as the rediscovery of techniques and practices that were lost with the decline of Men and the departure of the Elves.

That would do for a three-pointthesis, but your essay contains omre than this thesis introduces...

More thought needed. Good night!

[mark12_30]

mark12_30: Hmm . . . I thought I had actually made my intent clear fairly early on in the essay.

Yes; and no; it's woven in with a lot of introductory discussion which would be okay for a book, but not for a paper of that length, I think. (English majors & proffs, feel free to chime in here.) You want your first paragraph to present a simple summary of your overall thrust, and then bluntly announce your main points.

Your opening paragraphs are detailed, rich with material but too intricate (IMO) for an opening paragraph. That kind of intricate material belongs more in the body, I think. Maybe it's a fourth point. Or maybe it's the first point you argue... (point one) "To date, popular conceptions of M-E music ignore Tolkien's overarching theme of initial sophistication followed by slow, poignant decay." Follow with other three points discussed earlier... THen your supporting material in the first several paragraphs becomes the first main paragraph of the body.

However that still leaves out some material you have in there. Alas, I must now get to work. More at lunchbreak I hope!

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:51 AM January 30, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[The Barrow-Wight]

I'm moving this to Novices and Newcomers where to be with the other music topics. It will be deleted from this forum soon.