Serious suggestion for the languages forum

[Child of the 7th Age]

I would like to make a serious suggestion for the Languages forum.

We have a flood of people putting up threads for "Where Can I Learn ......usually some form of Elvish" The actual titles of the thread vary, but the question being asked is basically that. This has been going on for some time, even though we have many threads on back pages that answer these same questions. The problem has reached flood proportions with the new movie.

Many of the other forums have a permanent thread on top which lays out very basic things. Why can't we have a permanent thread on top that reads like this.....Where to go if you want to learn Elvish. This would have links to other sites for Sindarin, Quenya, tengwar, etc. Maybe even languages other than Elvish?

I know we don't want to direct traffic away from the site, but I don't believe it was ever part of the Downs' purpose to offer a basic Elvish course. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This same thread would also encourage folk to raise appropriate questions and comments in the Downs Forum and would give some examples of the topics to be discussed. This might include things like references to new resources not listed in the permanent thread, pleas for help in translating, discussions of the language itself, where you an find certain quotes, etc.

Many of the other forums in the Barrow-downs have been looked at and "improved" in recent months. But this is one forum which hasn't. Does anyone else agree or disagree, or have other ideas how to improve the languages forum? Are there people who have special expertise or interest in this area?

Does Estelyn have to moderate this forum as well as the Books, Movies, Novices, etc.? If so, she must be running in circles.

I am not so naive as to think that simply posting such a thread would "solve" all the duplication problems. Many will still post thei separate questions. But at least it would be a place to start and quickly refer newbies to, and might even justify putting a lock on duplicate threads.

BTW, I am unfortunately not the person to carry out a task like this. I am one of the rare folk on the site who have memorized chunks of the Westron and Adunaic word lists, but my Elvish is definitely weak.

[ January 05, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Beren87]

This is a very good idea, for I have also noticed this problem in other places.

The quiz and quotes sections are in desperate need of a Mod. With newer and newer members arriving it is hard to keep the smooth transition of gameplay. A "rules" list at the top, (much like the one in Newcomers) would indeed be most helpful. A few of us (Tolkiengurl, Lindolirian, and myself) have been attempting to teach the newcomers the "rules" of how to join in and post in the two forums, but it is difficult as there is no real "authority" to delete posts and such.

So perhaps the language forums also is not just in need of a Stickied "go to" topic, but also a moderator.

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

I agree 100%, Child. The language forum is in need of a mod. I can't count the threads that have someone asking where they can learn elvish, and they don't even check or search to see if there are similar topics (which there are many).

I think there ought to be a thread in the start of this forum that linked people to Ardalambion and also linked to some of the better threads.. So we can avoid these threads all the time. Just a little suggestion, though.

Exactly.

Also, in the "I'll Translate your Real Name," thread, there are several people asking about their names, that have already been translated, or can be easily found on the Quenya Lapseparma (sp?). Many other links have also been provided, but I guess anyone would like to skip through the nine some pages of that thread.

Aylwen

[ January 05, 2003: Message edited by: Aylwen Dreamsong ]

[ April 13, 2003: Message edited by: Aylwen Dreamsong ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

As you can see on the forum main page, there is no moderator for the Languages forum. I have my hands more than full with the three forums I now moderate and absolutely no knowledge of either Quenya or Sindarin, so I wouldn't dream of volunteering. But I agree that there is need of a moderator there, possibly on the quiz and quotes forums as well. Unfortunately, many newcomers don't bother to read before jumping in and posting...

[The Barrow-Wight]

I am of the opinion that with no language expert on staff, the Languages forum should be closed and those few topics in it that are worth reading would be moved to The Books where they could be moderated for behavior if not for content by the ultimately able Estelyn. This would rid us of an untidy forum and discourage most of the "How do you say ... in Elvish" topics.

Beren, that is a very good suggestion. If you would write up such a rules thread I would sticky it and be very grateful.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Barrow Wight,

I can certainly understand why you would suggest this if there's no one who has expertise in this. I do not have strong feelings about this, although there may be others who do. Ae we sure there is no one out there who has this kind of background?

This is my guess as to what would happen if the Language forum disapeared. I think that there would be a lot of newbies who would go to novices and newcomers and continue to post threads such as "Where Can I Learn......some form of Elvish." Those who've been around a while here and/or who have more of a Tolkien background would probably take their more advaced questions to Books.

So even if Language disappears as a forum, would we be wise to at least post a thread with links at the top of Novices and Newcomers for "Where do I go to Learn Elvish"? Otherwise, I fear that Novices and Newcomers will have many, many duplicate questions of this sort.

sharon

[Beren87]

*salutes*

That I will sir. Will PM it to you when ready.

[Galadrie1]

Why can't we have a permanent thread on top that reads like this.....Where to go if you want to learn Elvish. I think that's really what we need. I mean, the "If You Want To Learn Elvish, Look No Furthur!" thread is good, but I think people don't read it just because all the links are spread over two pages. I think a "summary" of this thread "stuck" to the top of the Forum page would help a lot.

[The Barrow-Wight]

"Where can we learn Elvish" doesn't deserve its own forum, and that truly is all that is happening in LANGUAGES. "Where" duplicates can just as easily be deleted as others, so it won't really add any complications to N&N. There really is no need for a seperate Language forum unless someone who is fluent in Tolkien's tongues is also willing, able, and acceptable to moderate the forum. (This is not a request. I really don't want to keep the Language forum open at this time.)

[Alkanoonion]

The languages section is a bit of a mess true and as I am no expert so I will not volunteer to be a mod, but why not have on your web page a basic vocab section? If this is to much work I have one being set up that you could copy or link to if you like
Example: sub headings under Language

Tangwar

Sindarin

Quenya

Black Script
Under each section you have the description and the basic Vocab eg
The Black Script / Speech


The Ring inscription in the ancient Black Speech from The Fellowship of the Ring
"Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatulash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul"
"One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them."

"It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years"
For the use of his minions in place of the Common Speech.


The following is a list of black speech words and operatives
The Black Speech...

agh = and (conjunction)
albai = n: elf (or) elves
amal = n: where
ash = n: one
Azog = pn: an orc-leader of Moria
bagronk = n: dung-pit
Bolg = pn: an orc-leader (son of Azog), slain by Beorn
bugd- = v: call
burguul = n: shadow, comes from the **** guul
burzum = n: darkness
buub = n: pig
buurz = adj: dark
durb- = v: rule
durub = n: ruler
Dushgoi = pn: Minas Morgul
Dushgoizagh = pn: Morgul Pass
duump- = v: doom
fauth- = v: lie hidden
gaakh = let it be that
gakh = three
gazat = n: dwarf
ghaash = n: fire
Ghaash = pn: an orc of Kirith Ungol
ghashum = n: heat
glob = v: filth
Golfimbul = pn leader of orcs of Mount Gram, slain at Greenfields
golug = n: elves, from the 1st Age
Gorbag = pn: an orc-leader of Minas Morgul, killed by Shagrat
goth = n: lord, master
Gothmog = pn: Balrog in first age, Lt. of Minas Morgul. in third age. (different people)
Grishnaakh = pn: an orc of Mordor, slain by Rohirrim
gund = n: stone
guul = n: wraith
hosh = n: guts
ilid = n: elf (or) elves
Khamuul = pn: second in command in the Nazguul
krak = five
krimp- = v: bind
krith = nine
Lagduf = pn: an orc of Kirith Ungol, killed by Morgul Orcs
lat = you
lata- = under (preposition)
lug = n: tower
Lugburzum = n: the very dark patch of dark around Barad-dur
Lugbuurz = pn: Barad-dur
Lugdush = pn: an orc of Isengard, slain by Rohirrim
Lughorn = pn: an orc
m- = **** of interrogative words
mal = where? (interrog)
mat- = v: die
matuurz = adj: mortal
Mauhuur = pn: an orc of Isengard, slain by Rohirrim
mog = n: voice
Morgoth = pn: Valar known once as Melkor that created Uruk's. The first Dark Lord
Muzgash = pn: an orc of Kirith Ungol, killed by Morgul Orcs
narkuu = never
nazg = n: ring
Nazguul = n: Ring-wraith
nuut = n: sky
oghor = n: Druuadan
olog = n: Mordor light-tolerant troll
prakh- = v: lure
pushdug = adj,participle: stinking
Radbug = pn: an orc of Minas Morgul, killed by Shagrat
Saruman = pn: the wizard (Mannish word)
sha = together with (preposition)
Shagrat = pn: an orc of Mordor
shakh = n: lord
shara = n: man
sharkuu = n: old man
Shelob = pn: the giant spider monster of Kirith Ungol
Shelobzagh = pn: Kirith Ungol
skai = gah! (exclamation)
Snaga = pn: an orc of Isengard, slain by Rohirrim
Snaga = pn: an orc of Kirith Ungol, slain by Sam Gamgee
snaga = n: slave (and used by Uruk-hai as = `orc of smaller breed')
srinkh- = v: gather (transitive)
ta = him
tab = his
tak = them
tala = above (preposition)
tark = man of Nuumenoorean descent
thrak- = v: bring
throqu- = v: devour
tug = adv: only
u = to (preposition)
udu = seven
Ufthak = pn: an orc of Kirith Ungol, caught by Shelob
Ugluuk = pn: an orc-leader of Isengard, slain by Eomer
uliima = n: throne
uruk = n: one of a breed of big orcs
uzg = n: land
Yaguul = pn: an orc
za = this
zagh = n: mountain pass
Special Handlers...

-at : verb infinitive Example: Krimp-at
-hai : people (collective plural)
-i : noun plural after consonant Example: Bagronk-i
-ishi : in (case suffix)
-ob : of (case suffix)
-u : noun plural after consonant
-ub- : verb future tense suffix
-ug : verb present active participle
-uga : verb past passive participle
-uuk : all
-ul : them
-um : -ness, -yness
-uur : for (case suffix)
-uurz : a common adjective-forming suffix
-z : noun plural after vowel
a- : prefixed to an interrogative makes it into a relative

you could also have a link section for people to post links to other language pages

smilies/smile.gif

[Merri]

Well, there's the If You Want to Learn Elvish, Look No Further thread that I created in the summer . . .

[ January 06, 2003: Message edited by: Merri ]

[Neferchoirwen]

Been wondering about the Languages forums. I was actually thinking about coming up with lessons, or translations of some of the poems to begin with. About the lessons, they'd be hard to come up with. Though I've got my hands on some (from another Tolkien site), it would take quite a lot of time before I can say that I can be fluent enough to some up with something as well.

[Eärendil]

Joy seems to be really good at Elvish, at least of what I could see on some of the help she has given. Maybe she would want to moderate the forum?
I would hate to see the forum go, and wouldn´t hesitate one second with helping to moderate it, if it wasn´t for the fact that I am not yet an expert on the languages. I am studying it though, and am getting better, though slowly. (The fact that I am already studying two langauges ((English and German)) apart from my mother tongue might explain.)
Also, a few months ago when the flood was even worse than it is now, Mr. Underhill asked me to send him links to Tolkien´s languages, to put in a sticky thread at the top. He hasn´t done yet, and that´s probably because he is a very busy man, but could we try? Put up a sticky thread with links, and see if we can stop some of the flooding?
Because, as I said earlier, I would hate to see the forum go. I am trying to think of everything I can to help, because I want to keep it. There are threads where interesting questions are raised and cause discussions between all the members that have a good knowledge of the languages, and they are very educating and informative. I am afraid they would disappear if the forum would go.
But then, that´s just my opinion, and I am not the one paying for this site....*bows*

Eärendil

[Beren87]

Aye, have PMed BW a list of rules for the Quiz and or Quotes section made by Lindolirian and I. Hopefully it should cut down on the repeat and misc. topics and posts.

[Galadrie1]

The Language Forum is in serious need of someone who is willing to close and delete "I need to learn elvish!!!! Where should I go?!?!" threads. It's really starting to bug me, since "If You Want to Learn Elvish, Look No Further!" is only five or six topics down! smilies/mad.gif

[ January 30, 2003: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ]

[Merri]

Is there really no one moderating the language forum?

[Beren87]

Nope, no one officially. We really do need more mods on the Downs, with all the new people.

[Galadrie1]

It doesn't even have to be someone who knows any Elvish, they just need to have the ability to close and delete stupid annoying topics!!! Grr, I'm getting angry now. smilies/mad.gif smilies/rolleyes.gif

[DaughterofVana]

It's really disappointing that the problem has gotten so bad that deleting the language forum is even an option, but extremely obvious that it is the most efficient solution. Even with "sticky posts" (or whatever the actual name is) that tell people where to learn elvish or links to the name lists people will still post the same questions over and over without searching first. I just hope that the problem won't just filter through to the other threads, with the same questions in both books and movies, causing even more headache for the mods and everyone else, since the problem won't be as contained.

I wish that people had more pride. I know it's easier to just post the question and wait for a reply than to actually search for the corresponding thread, but come on, people! Be considerate! It took me three months to teach myself Tengwar, and only now am I getting good enough to actually compose in it. If you're seriously considering learning elvish/tengwar/whatever, then you SHOULD at least take the time to find the corresponding posts. If that's too much of a waste of your valuable time, then how are you ever going to take the time to actually LEARN the language?

Not really sure who I'm talking to, so I guess I'll stop. Guess I just wanted to say that I'm backing everyone 100% even though I'm sorry to see the forum go.

Gloomily,
'Vana

[Beren87]

That was the thing that made me first notice this forum, the lack of Moderators. Most forums of this size have three or four Moderators per room. This did work early in the game, quite a few of the newer faces have been rather...immature. I really do think we need more moderation not only in the Languages forum, but across the board. If only to edit some of the language that I have seen of late that has been a bit offensive.

[Merri]

Well, I don't think my idea will be very popular, as it involves deleting the language forum.

Why not just post a bunch of links up on the main page for sites where you can learn Elvish? I mean, anyway the questions in the forum seem to be (Remember, I don't frequent the language forum, so I'm probably mistaken) 'How do you pronounce such-and-such a word?'.

I don't know, really . . . I have a suspicion that that was babbling more than anything else, but I'll just leave the post up anyway to see what people think of it.

[Beren87]

Well, there is the "Help me translate this" topics and such. The language forum really could be just a place for "students" of the langeages to get help. And every so often there is a valid point raised about something. I don't think that deleting it all together is the best course of action.

[Galadrie1]

"Where can we learn Elvish" doesn't deserve its own forum, and that truly is all that is happening in LANGUAGES That's not true. There are some good points for discussion brought up in the Languages Forum, and it should not be closed.

As for mods, if you want someone fluent in Elvish, Ravendah seems to be excellent. DaughterofVana and I have been trying to direct people to the "If You Want To Learn Elvish, Look No Furthur!" thread, but just posting the link doesn't work -- people just ignore it, and keep posting on the thread. We need someone who can close threads.

[Manardariel]

I agree with the people DaughterofVana listed..and I have an idea who we might control things...ok, listen:
My idea is to creat "general" thread, that sort of work like quiz threads, or the "NEW MEMBERS" thread. For example, you create three translation thread. Anyone who wants something transated can ask his question in there. Then whoever knows it can translate it, and we move on to the next question. That way, people don´t keep making new threads. The same way you could do one "Grammer" tread, one "General Questions" thread and one "Pronounciation"thread, mybe even a "Phrases" thread. The rest of the forum would be open for threads like the "Blade names", where you can use and/or practice the elvish you know.

So, what do you think? smilies/smile.gif

[lindil]

From what I have seen on the Silm/TftE forums Eruhen has a good grasp of at least some aspects of Elvish and it [perhaps more importantly] a good head on her shoulders. I know in the past she has expressed concern over the Lang forum. She also completed the Quenya Course at Ardalambion. No mean feat!

Anyway with our JRRT's love of languages, it seems a shame to give up.

And I agree with Galadrie1 when she said, "it doesn't need to be anyone who knows Elvish, they just need to be able to delete stupid topics!"

Of course one would like a Mod to be conversant in the Forum they are responsible for but...

Anyhow, perhaps Eruhen can be persuaded...

[DaughterofVana]

As for mods, if you want someone fluent in Elvish, Ravendah seems to be excellent.

Thank-you, Galadrie1. I knew I wasn't alone in my devotion. smilies/biggrin.gif Ravandah's the man! But I'm sure that since Ravendah is as anomynous as any of us, he wouldn't be the ideal mod. They all need to know each other to plot our downfall, you know. smilies/wink.gif

-'Vana

[VanimaEdhel]

As for mods, if you want someone fluent in Elvish, Ravendah seems to be excellent.

Yes, Ravendah has earned a lot of respect on my part. He is always there answering everything Elvish, Quenya and Sindarin (and giving me a project: trying to translate his signature).

[Beren87]

Was the forum deleted? I don't see it...

[DaughterofVana]

I second the question. Is this really it? Is the Language forum gone for good? (Optomistically) Perhaps it's just in for repairs.....

-'Vana

[Galadrie1]

smilies/eek.gif Whoa, the the front page of the forum looks so weird without the Languages forum! I hope it's only temporary, too, 'Vana.... All those links on the 'Look No Futher!' thread, gone forever! smilies/frown.gif

[Falagar]

What shall I do, now that the language forum is gone?! smilies/frown.gif smilies/wink.gif

[Gorwingel]

Gosh, it seems I have been gone forever! I didn't even notice that the language forum was gone until I saw someone else asking where did it go. It is sad that it had to be terminated, but it was always kind of empty though.

[Maikadilwen]

Before you all despair (that is MY job, you know), just click on "Middle Earth Discussions" (the headline above "Books") and you'll find the language forum. smilies/smile.gif

[Galadrie1]

Yaaaaay!!! Thanks, Maika!!! smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[Adastrea]

Oh good! (it really would be a shame to let it go. once all the "Where can I learn" posts are gone we can get down to serious discussion) I don't think a mod would need to know the languages, just be able to keep it all in order!

[Maikadilwen]

I still recommend that you copy the links you want and save them, before the forum disappears completely.

EDIT: Too late! It's gone.

[ March 09, 2003: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

[VanimaEdhel]

Oh golly gee...the Languages Forum was one of the major reasons I joined this site. Oh well...

You should have seen me freak out when I saw it was gone. smilies/rolleyes.gif

I just wanted to officially say: Rest in Peace, Languages Forum.

[Sharkû]

I don't see why it should be impossible for our members to incorporate the Languages forum into Books. The close correlation of language and literature is what mediaeval lit., and incidentally, Tolkien, is all about after all. This does not even mean that language topics need to have any special relevance for a literature discussion. However, if it forces language topics to adopt the same standard as the Books forum is intented to have, I cannot see how people willing to discuss the Languages would not benefit from it.

[lindil]

Sharku, what you say is of course true, the only minor drawback is that there is no sticky atop to contain the most essential links.

IF anyone wants to make use of it, in the sadnees of seeing the Lang forum disappear I created a few weeks agoa LANG FORUM for Downers (http://pub72.ezboard.com/fosanwefrm10) on my humble Osanwe site.

I will give it a few weeks to see if anyone wishes to make use of it or not.

And if anyone has bookmarked all or many of the previous useful links, it would be very nice to have them archived publically there.

[The Saucepan Man]

There seems to be something quite eerie going on here ...

Having recently discovered the Who's on-line page (courtesy of lindil's stalker thread), I saw today that there was someone listed there as reading a thread in the Languages forum. Yet, when I went to Forum Home page, there was still no Languages forum to be seen.

Am I going mad, or is there some hidden Gondolin-like Languages forum with a secret entrance? smilies/confused.gif

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Did you, by any chance, remember what member that was? Because then you could PM them to ask or something... smilies/confused.gif

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Isn't this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=3) the Languages Forum? smilies/eek.gif

[elven maiden Earwen]

where did you find it??? smilies/eek.gif smilies/eek.gif smilies/eek.gif

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I was on Who's Online an one of the guests was looking at it, so I clicked on the link and there it was! smilies/eek.gif smilies/eek.gif smilies/eek.gif
Does anyone know if it was supposed to still be there? smilies/confused.gif smilies/confused.gif smilies/confused.gif smilies/eek.gif smilies/eek.gif

[ April 12, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

[The Saucepan Man]

'Tis the lost spirit of the Languages Forum. They say that those who post there forever become entagled in its tricksy threads and winding passages of Tengwar and Quenya ... smilies/eek.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

That's exactly how I came across it, GaladrieloftheOlden, but I'll be darned if I can find a link to it from the forum home. Not that I ever posted there - I just like a good mystery. smilies/wink.gif

[Galadrie1]

I'm guessing people bookmarked the URL for the forum, and that's how they're getting to it.... It's really creepy going there again. smilies/eek.gif

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Yeah. I just thought it had actually been deleted... smilies/eek.gif

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

'Tis the lost spirit of the Languages Forum. They say that those who post there forever become entagled in its tricksy threads and winding passages of Tengwar and Quenya ... Hehehe, lol. Do any of you moderators, operators, etc know why it's there? Cause all the rest of us can only guess... smilies/rolleyes.gif

[VanimaEdhel]

And will we get sucked into a world of Elvish, never to return, if we go to the Forum? That's my question...

[lindil]

As a moderator, I can guarantee that most of us Mod's are as ingonrant of the innerworkings of the barrows outside of their own as anyone else. THe secret lang forum is as big os a mystery to me as anyone else, though I think I recall one of the admins [Mithadan or Sharku hinting that it still existed and was accesible].

All is at the behest of the Admins and the chief Wight. But if we keep a low profile, I bet the secret language forum will be left alone to use in a quiet way smilies/wink.gif .

[ April 13, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Carlas]

Wow, a mystery forum on the downs! How creepy! Makes it feel even more like the Barrowdowns! smilies/wink.gif

[Beren87]

And here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=16&SUBMIT=Go) is another one!

[Carlas]

OHHHH, AHHHH, what is that???

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Wow, that's cool. What is it? smilies/eek.gif smilies/wink.gif

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

The old Rpg forum. Crazy place, that was smilies/rolleyes.gif. Look! It's all our threads for the Audience w/ the King Game! Wow. Where'd you find that, Beren?

[Beren87]

I had it bookmarked when it existed, seems the bookmark still worked.

[VanimaEdhel]

Oh my goodness! I miss that so much! Now I have both bookmarked. smilies/wink.gif

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Oh my! I remember the language forum (from my haunting but not participating days...) but I don't remember venturing into the Freestyle room... *shivers* this place is haunted!

Sophia