The Agony of Poor Spelling

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

While I expect no one to be able to spell my name (it would be cruel) surely we care enough about the english language to at least attempt to spell the titles of our threads correctly? To quote Dr. Smith.. oh, the pain, the pain...

Following is the Barrow-downs Hall of Shame:

Why does everyone descriminate against people who use there imagination?
Did anyone else find the Silmaillion confusing?
Am I the only one who finds this picture of Frodo dusterbing?
Things that LOTR characters just woulden't say
I made a poem
(one writes poems, one does not make them - I fear to read it)
Barrow Wrights (sp?)
(Note: 2 points for at least knowing it was misspelled)
Audience Partisipation!
(this is a personal favorite)
New way to make decissions
Any1 here taht actually speaks elvish or somethin else?
(we subtract an extra 20 points for any misspellings in the language forum!)
101 Actors (thankfully) not casted in the FOTR
(casted is not a word darling)
Funny pictures contenued

Sigh. I'm afraid this is to be 'contenued.'

-Maril

[Maikadilwen]

Oh I love it Marileangorifurnimaluim . See how easy it is to spell your name right when using a simple technique called "cut and paste". smilies/biggrin.gif

What a brilliant idea to have a Hall of Shame. Those lines are great.

[Raefindel]

I have to say, one of my favorites is "Greetings and Solutions"

[Susan Delgado]

Barrow Wrights (sp?)
(Note: 2 points for at least knowing it was misspelled)

-10 points for not doing anything about it.

[Bêthberry]

Might we nominate subcategories for Worst Performance as a Grammatical Statement and Lamest Supporting Role for Punctuation?

The nominees are

How many and What were Arwen and Aragorn's children's names?

boromir's more sinister appearance than was true?

Umltimate Matchup. 4 Men Enter! !Man Exit.

My views on the Film (It wouldn't let me post on the other topic like this)

Rename the Fllowship

Elfish?

whats the shortest time youve taken to read Lotr

Are TICKETS being sold yet?!?!?!?!

YO!!!!!!!!!!

Help me please!!!!!!!!!!!

LOTR fanatics .. read on .. help?

[platinumclaw]

Bethberry, you failed to add a colon at the end of "The nominees are".

A Hall of Shame? That would be a bit harsh, wouldn't it? But then again, people here at the Downs like to make fun of every single spelling/grammar error.

Please, please get a dictionary. But for now:

elfs
(-2 points for not capitallizing. The plural of "elf" is "elves", not "elfs".)

Parallells...
(-3 points. There are too many Ls.)

--- Edit ---

Oh, and don't forget..

"the threat of isenguard"

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Khroa the Eagle ]

[Amanaduial the archer]

man, for those of us out there who are dislexic, this is a cruel, cruel thread! Nah, j/k, some of the spelling is truly dire, especially stuff like "the barrow-Wright."

marileangorifurnimaluim....wait for it, wait for it...

I GOT IT RIGHT! WITHOUT COPYING AND PASTING! WOOHOO! *does a little dance until she realises shes attracting really wierd looks, even from a bunch of wraiths.* erm, sorry....

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: Amanaduial the archer ]

[Bêthberry]

Hello Khroa the Eagle,

Bethberry, you failed to add a colon at the end of "The nominees are".

No, actually I did not fail to add the colon. The colon would be incorrect. The verb "to be" is a linking verb (copula) which requires a subject completion. The colon would separate incorrectly the successive, dependent units of clause structure. This is a very common error, seen very often. For a full explanation, see Quirk and Greenbaum, A University Grammar of English.

If you like, I will edit the sentence to read the following:

"The nominees are the following: "

That would use the correct form with the colon. As it stands, my original sentence is correct.

And, BTW, no one here at the Downs ridicules every single spelling and grammar error. We all can make mistakes and fail to proofread correctly. Maril's point, and mine, is that at least the thread titles deserve to be thoughtfully and carefully written, revised if necessary, and proofread thoroughly. Many people do not take the time to do that, and unfortunately the thread titles do kind of stand out.

And, also, please note that neither Maril nor I named any names. The thread titles are given here anonymously. We want to raise awareness about good writing habits rather than point fingers at specific people.

*curtsies respectfully*

Bethberry

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[Alkanoonion]

And, BTW, no one here at the Downs ridicules every single spelling and grammar error.

This is true, not once have any of my many errors been quoted. Let me just say that topics like this one are good because they help people like me become more aware of the correct way that posts should be presented. I welcome any and all comments that help me learn. Keep up the good work.
smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif

[Nevfeniel]

Actually, Alk, I have yet to come across any errors in your posts, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough smilies/wink.gif.
Anyways, I just want to add one of my favorite misspellings (which means I hate seeing it):
Rivendale.
Urgh! I can't stand that!

[Kithrèna Greenarrow Legolas]

*Hangs head in shame*
Seeing as how just about all My posts made it into the "Hall Of Fame" For bad spelling, I'd like to apologize. I know My spelling skills match that of a anteater, but My reading skills beat My English Teacher.
I will take the time to go find all My old posts and correct the spelling in the subject. I'd also correct the spelling in all My replys, but seeing as how I've got a good number of them, I'm afraid I wont be able to do so.
I have found a good online spell checker and will be doing all My posts and perhaps most of My replys in that.

I am sorry again. Please forgive Me.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I'd like to dedicate this one to Rimbaud:

Frodo- Dancing in his underwhere (sp?)

[Rimbaud]

Squatter - Under where?

I think you have an option for an epitaph, good sir.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I thought you'd appreciate that little gem.

An epitaph? Let mine simply read

Home is the drinker, home from the pub
And the idler returned to the bed.

[Amanaduial the archer]

The verb "to be" is a linking verb (copula) which requires a subject completion. The colon would separate incorrectly the successive, dependent units of clause structure. This is a very common error, seen very often. For a full explanation, see Quirk and Greenbaum, A University Grammar of English.


*whimpers and starts to back away slowly* Im s-scared...`

[VanimaEdhel]

My spelling skills match that of a anteater

How do you know anteater's are not good spellers? smilies/tongue.gif smilies/wink.gif

The verb "to be" is a linking verb (copula) which requires a subject completion. The colon would separate incorrectly the successive, dependent units of clause structure. This is a very common error, seen very often. For a full explanation, see Quirk and Greenbaum, A University Grammar of English.

********************

*whimpers and starts to back away slowly* Im s-scared...

I know...I had to read that twice there to make sure she was really saying what she was saying...wowsers...ever think of becoming an English teacher, Bethberry?

And Kithréna, no worries, you will get better with time!

I use the colon out of context too much. I know I do. It's just easier to do so. As in, when I wrote

And Kithréna, no worries, you will get better with time!

I was tempted to say

And: Kithréna: no worries! You will get better with time!

but then I realized that would totally defeat the entire point of Bethberry's grammar lesson.

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: VanimaEdhel ]

[lindil]

Kithrèna Greenarrow Legolas

100 pts for honesty, repentance and humility!

I also commit numerous errors of spelling and grammar w/ nearly every post so I also ask forgiveness for the many painful semi- or un-edited posts [950 or so at the moment] I have inflicted on all of you.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Here's another little gem for your delectation and disbelief:

Plus scince it was pure tobacco and al natural, It would'nt be as bad.......more like smokeing...mint or some other herb

[HerenIstarion]

The number of threads which are at the same time posted by your humble servant and worth listing here is enormous. Encantations for one, and loads of others.

well, I have no excuses but one - I'm trying hard not to do it smilies/rolleyes.gif If it can't be counted as a good excuse, I'll ask for forgiveness.


edit: I changed encantations to incantations.

*H-I stands up and solemnly promises to try harder and eliminate any mispellings on his behalf

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[Belin]

Oh, H-I, you're a non-native speaker who lives in a country where a completely different language is spoken, so of course you're going to make mistakes. I'm actually impressed enough by what you said about learning the language just to read books that weren't translated into your own that I think your mistakes should be universally forgiven. Then again, my own experiences with Spanish may have heightened my predisposition for this. Amanaduial's dyslexia makes proofreading difficult as well, I would imagine. What's asked for on this thread is clearly more difficult for some than for others.

I made a poem
(one writes poems, one does not make them - I fear to read it)


On the other hand, I wrought a play. Hmmm...

some of the spelling is truly dire, especially stuff like "the barrow-Wright."

Interestingly enough, BW is one of the few barrow-wights around who really is a barrow wright. smilies/smile.gif

And, also, please note that neither Maril nor I named any names. The thread titles are given here anonymously. We want to raise awareness about good writing habits rather than point fingers at specific people.


Of course, the makers of threads are very easy to identify, and correct spelling does not constitute "good writing habits," but there's no point in getting into a discussion of literacy here. The writing center worker in me does have some problems with this thread, creature of the autonomous model that it is, but I wouldn't want people to think me overwrought.

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

[GreatWarg]

Marileangorifurnimaluim - Yes, quite irksome. The Middle-earth Mayhem section is simply mad. I do not even bother looking there anymore. As for the Movies? Fan girls screaming with those mind-boggling !!!'s. A major nuisance to ones who wish to post thoughtful messages. And the smilies (I realize that many people do this) are majority of many posts I see. And I wonder at one thing in particular: Why did the Barrow-Wight create the Middle-earth Mayhem section? I see many of the (forgive my use of words out of lack of better words to use as description) "teeny-boppers" post constantly in that section and yet do not take thought in other areas. Also, such new persons are interfering with RPGs in the Freestyle and other rooms that are serious and follow the course of Tolkien's lore strictly. At such times I wonder...

[Kuruharan]

Why did the Barrow-Wight create the Middle-earth Mayhem section? I see many of the..."teeny-boppers" post constantly in that section and yet do not take thought in other areas.

Looked at from a certain point of view that might be considered a good thing.

[Bêthberry]

Ah, Belin,

After some thought, I find I cannot let this go by without some small observations, however graciously and wittily you made your post. smilies/smile.gif

and correct spelling does not constitute "good writing habits," ... The writing center worker in me does have some problems with this thread....


Hmm. Only certain perspectives on language and literacy take that point of view on spelling, not all; it is, you might say, not a truth universally acknowledged.

And this (former) writing center worker has no problems with this thread. In fact, I think it does greater disservice, even handicaps people further(whether ESL or learning disabled) to provide excuses for poor workmanship. Put it this way: "Oh, my poor dears. I know it is hard for you to accomplish this, harder than for others, so that's okay. You don't have to. We'll understand. Everytime we see your mistakes we'll just remember why."

As to the issue of privacy, I would argue that identity has been discretely handled, for there still remains the need to search for the threads. And after all, posting something here under one's screen name is a public act.

But perhaps you are happy with seeing chatish spreading throughout the forums?

Bethberry

[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Why did the Barrow-Wight create the Middle-earth Mayhem section?

I wouldn't presume to guess. I quite like it there, though. If the humour can leave something to be desired it's up to those of us who like to leaven their whimsy with literacy to do something about it. So long as it remains Tolkien-related, the place can chug along happily without troubling me.

The Middle-earth Mayhem section is simply mad.

Now you're beginning to see it my way.

Of course, the makers of threads are very easy to identify, and correct spelling does not constitute "good writing habits," but there's no point in getting into a discussion of literacy here.

You've raised a couple of important points, Belin: firstly, since not everyone reveals their earthly location, it isn't always easy to tell when someone's not a native speaker of English, in which case a certain lack of polish is understandable. Secondly, it's impossible to differentiate between laziness and the effects of dyslexia, sufferers from which can do without our ridicule; and finally, yes it is obvious to whom we refer, so undue scorn should be avoided to avoid descending to the level of personal abuse.

I do think, however, that it's worth pointing out the more egregious insults to the language that are perpetrated on this forum, which prides itself on its literacy. I admit that I derive a certain amount of amusement from it, but it's also by way of a protest against the hideous mess of abbreviations, phonetic spellings and confused grammar, which if allowed to go unchallenged will sweep across this board, removing all trace of elegance from its threads. Whilst recognising that certain members are at something of a disadvantage in an English milieu (not least regular watchers of MTV), I think that we ought to continue to lampoon and decry laziness and illiteracy wherever appropriate.

[Telchar]

Thank you Belin for noticing that not all of us are from english speaking contries. I personally, could spend a long time repenting my numerous errors - I wont. I only have 'this much' time to read, write and reply to posts. I could use more of that time on spell checking - that would mean less reading, and less posting. I simply don't like the view of that.

Surely I can understand that simple errors can be annoying to the reader. But usually, when the mistakes are so obvious that even I can see them, I ask myself - would I rather miss the post and the poor spelling? (and even simple typos that I see mocked in here) or would I rather read the post, and live with the typos? - I lean in the latter direction.

This is only a personal view - and when that is said I ask this: If we used all the time consumed by spellchecking, what could we achieve? And what if we focused on talking Tolkien instead of starting spell check threats? We wonder, yeesss, weee wonder!


Cheers Telchar

[Birdland]

Telchar - you spell pretty good for someone who claims they can't spell. smilies/biggrin.gif

I hesitate to "throw stones", since I am constantly going back and editing posts after sending them, because I spot spelling errors. (If I didn't erase the "edit" messages at the bottom, you'd see that I go back two or three times on some.)

But the idea that The Message is All and spelling and grammer do not matter has been given way too much weight in this day and age. People on message boards like the Downs probably write more than the average citizen, at least in the U.S. What better place to practice your skills than on the board? If nothing else, a future employer might be impressed.

And for pity's sake: learn paragraph form, people! These old eyes have trouble reading a great clump of words, no matter how interesting the ideas being expressed. I can muddle through a post that is misspelled, but I have given up on reading a great many posts that were not broken down into paragraphs.

Try it, folks. You'll be pleased with the results. (And see? There I go again. Editing!)

[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[lindil]

I am constantly going back and editing posts after sending them, because I spot spelling errors. (If I didn't erase the "edit" messages at the bottom, you'd see that I go back two or three times on some.)


that's me!

and I second B'lands, "good place to practice" idea.

[Raefindel]

I tend to try to enjoy the humor in the mis-spelled words rather than be annoyed by them, particularly because I am aware that for many here, English is not their first language.

[Amanaduial the archer]

i never fail to be impressed by the people who can post so eloquently, especially when english isnt their first language. sickening really. smilies/wink.gif

Squatter of Amon Rudh- yes that really is quite painful!

Come on though, if some of you people raise yourselves much higher, your gonna have serious trouble getting down again! The Middle Earth Mayhem section is just a bit of fun- if the entire forum was completely stiff, thered probably not be half the people. Its nice to have a mix!

[VanimaEdhel]

Hey, GreatWarg! I go to the Middle-Earth Mayhem section too! It is not all girls drooling over people.

Not to advertise, but check out my thread "Arda Elections" on there...

Anyway, I do not mind one or two typographical errors, even if the people speak English as their first language. Everyone can make mistakes and then even sometimes miss them when editing the message. If we were to point it out kindly, maybe people (such as myself) would not be terrified of making one mistake and then not seeing it. That would be why I check my messages about three times (and yet I still sometimes have mistakes).

EDIT: And then, when you go to reread your message and the sentence structure makes no sense whatsoever because you were going between the TV, the Chatroom and this message, you should edit and completely rephrase the message!

[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: VanimaEdhel ]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

The agony of poor spelling. I titled this thread so for a reason. It is wincingly painful to read poorly spelled, sloppy work. Why would anyone embarrass themselves so?

The foreign speakers are generally quite obvious. Not from the bottom of their post, but their stiffer sentence construction, odd though not incorrect word choices, and especially lack of vernacular. Most foreign posters carefully craft their posts, and the effort is unmistakable.

It's carelessness that bothers me.

Here's a case in point. I couldn't for the life of me remember how to spell 'vernacular.' The 'vern' looked wrong. I copied the word, plunked it into a blank email, then ran spellcheck. I do this all the time. If I didn't delete the 'edits' at the bottom of the screen (et tu, Birdie?) they would really stack up.

My point isn't to embarrass anyone into behaving better. My purpose here is to whine.

-Maril

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[HerenIstarion]

I am constantly going back and editing posts after sending them, because I spot spelling errors. (If I didn't erase the "edit" messages at the bottom, you'd see that I go back two or three times on some.)


well, me too


and concerining odd word choices:

recently I was advised to use "I guess" instead of "I deem", though for me nothing was wrong with "I deem" choice. I suppose there are many other words I use which suffer the selfsame oddness
smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

edit: almost two years thence - funny how spelling error preserved for said period in a post where I state that I actually do edit my posts. Weird! I 'bolded' said error to stand as a constant reminder to my arrogant self...

[lindil]

Whine hereby registered as complete.

smilies/tongue.gif

[Bêthberry]

Ah, Vanima,

I know...I had to read that twice there to make sure she was really saying what she was saying...wowsers...ever think of becoming an English teacher, Bethberry?


Ever read the Books forum, Vanima?*hint* smilies/smile.gif


I suppose you don't want me to discuss dangling participles, do you? smilies/wink.gif

Bethberry

[ October 19, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[HerenIstarion]

well, I do. It's so fascinating... well, I mean it. I have a good training guessing out your terms - since I studied not english grammar, I have to translate the thing into georgian and than try to work out what exactly do you mean smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Birdland]

recently I was advised to use "I guess" instead of "I deem", though for me nothing was wrong with "I deem" choice.
HerenIstarion - there is nothing wrong with the use of "I deem", except to suggest that you were born 400 years ago. It is a very archaic phrase.

(Hmmmmmm, Birdie pictures Heren sitting at his computer in doublet and hose. A scene straight out of Shakespeare! smilies/biggrin.gif )

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I don't deem it necessary for you to make any such change, Heren Istarion. ;)

It's all a matter of taste or lack of it. Personally I find "I guess" to be an unsatisfying substitute for "I suppose".

[Rimbaud]

You speak as an American, Birdie. I don't consider it archaic. I dislike the phrase "I guess" immensely, particularly in the context of its modern usage, much prefering "deem" and "suppose".

[Birdland]

Oooooh, listen to the "quality" speak! "I deem" indeed! If my dear ol' mom heard you talkin' like that, she'd tell ya to "quit puttin' on airs, boy." smilies/biggrin.gif

[Rimbaud]

Indeed, at High Tea on our lawns, one can hear some quite high-falutin' language, to be sure. smilies/wink.gif

[Elenna]

I use phrases like "I deem" in my everyday life, an dget quite a few odd looks. However, pretty much everyone knows I am a reading maven and a Shakespeare fanatic, so I'm forgiven.

I enjoy reading posts from non-English speakers. The effort they put in is plain, and I appreciate it. I know for a fact that I couldn't write that well in French, my second language.

[Birdland]

I suppose I could live with "I suppose", but I'd never have guessed that "I guess" would be deemed to be such a vulgar phrase.

Who'd a thunk?

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Bêthberry]

Well, Ah reckons it best to take my talk to PM with you, H-I, 'cause this little ol' Canuck is in danger of getting caught in the crossfire between these Yanks and Brits at the OK Corral. smilies/wink.gif

"deem" is not archaic in Canada, but formal. Look for the PM later.

Bb

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I suppose I could live with "I suppose", but I'd never have guessed that "I guess" would be deemed to be such a vulgar phrase.

I'm afraid that it's quite beyond the pale in polite society, old thing. In some circles one could be thought simply barbaric for using so presidential an expression. ;)

Don't listen to these transatlantic heathens, H-I: five minutes with them will guarantee that no civilised human being can understand a word you're saying. :p

[Maikadilwen]

Promise me you'll teach me everything when I move to London next year, dearest Squatter. After all, I'm just a "lunatic" Dane (your own words about Danes, remember? smilies/wink.gif ) slashing my way through the English grammar.
But I do by far prefer the British spellings and such over the American. No offense meant.

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

[Bêthberry]

I beg to remonstrate with you, Sir Squatter, and disabuse you of the vile notion that all transatlantics speak Sam Slick's dialect.

Lilibet was just here and we practiced for weeks for her. She deems us veddy proper.

*short, sharp curtsy*

Bethberry

[Birdland]

I suppose I could live with "I suppose", but I'd never have guessed that "I guess" would be deemed to be such a vulgar phrase.

I'm afraid that it's quite beyond the pale in polite society, old thing. In some circles one could be thought simply barbaric for using so presidential an expression. - Squatter

Shoot! And I thought if I avoided wearing Burmuda shorts with matching belt and shoes, and the T-shirt with advertising on it, I could "blend."

Oh well, if I'm going to speak like a barbarian, I may as well act like one as well. Where's my bowie knife and raccoon cap? Look out England! I'm crossin' the pond!

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Mlo]

I don't see whats so wrong about some misspellings? Ok, I'm quite new here, so please don't hate me, and I am truly, deeply, sorry for the 'YO!!!!!!!!!!' post, but it was my first post, so again, I am truly ,deeply etc. sorry. I'll think about my spelling in the future. Even if 'yo' is a word (I think...), atleast it's a word I always use...

But I still don't understand whats so wrong with misspellings, as long as you understand the sentence...

This thread makes me quite confused, (English grammar isn't exactly my best side, and then I'm also only 13...) but I just wanted to apologize for my 'yo'...

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mlo ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Child sneaks back to her old posts and carefully replaces every "I guess" with "I suppose" or some such thing.

Hope no one catches me doing this.......

sharon

[NazgulNumberTen]

NN10's hall of shame (or shamnasium, if you please)
-Fangirl topics
-Sam topics
-Elf topics
-any post made by me smilies/biggrin.gif

[Bêthberry]

Hello and greetings Mlo,

No problem with the Yo; it was the exclamation marks which were overdone. They belong in chateze, but not in English.

We're just whining here about people who don't care about language. You'll get used to us! And I'm sure you'll learn to appreciate precise writing! Whatever you do, never use (sp?) in a post or Rimbaud's flying trout will come after you! (That's a reference to the (sp): Phantom Menace thread.)

Enjoy your time being dead here, too. smilies/smile.gif

Bethberry

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[NazgulNumberTen]

Why do YOU like legolas?
we now have sunk lower than ever before. i name this, WORST THREAD EVER!!!

[The Barrow-Wight]

And I name you, NN10, as the ultimate topic interrupter. Get back on topic or you'll be off the bridge soon.

Thanks for your cooperation.

[NazgulNumberTen]

(gulp)...YES SIR!!
(salutes and walks away)

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

*Maril raises hand for Child to pause, before replacing all those 'I guesses.'*

Are we in polite company, Squatter? smilies/wink.gif

-Maril

[Ithaeliel]

I beg your pardon, but... agony?

You are scaring me... after absences such as I have taken, this very thread seems all too nitpicky. smilies/confused.gif

Everyone makes spelling errors and grammatical errors. Sometimes the don't realize it. Even if it is bothersome, there are many people here from non-English speaking countries as well as younger members who are still learning. I wouldn't blame any of you for jumping on me after you read this, but being the person that I am, I attempt to be über-tolerant of everything ( which can often be a disadvantage) and don't see reason for such pickiness.

I'm sorry! smilies/frown.gif

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Ithaeliel ]

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Why yes, my good Ithaeliel,

Poor spelling can indeed lead to agony.

* blows about a mischievous smoke ring *

Say for instance, you're surrounded by a pack of Orcs. The only appropriate spell is one you normally don't use, so you've had some young Elvish shieldmaiden named Mary Sue (swooning, no doubt, over Legolas, mind not on her work at any rate) inscribe it on a scroll as a memory aid. Then when the time comes to read it, you find the writer's presentation of words unclear. Incorrect spelling leads to incorrect spelling.

Then I deem, dim dumb damaging doom dominates. smilies/wink.gif

Gandalf the Grey

[Nevfeniel]

I don't really mind misspellings as long as I can understand what they're trying to say. It's just that I can't stand what I call "lazy speech". You know what I mean, replacing 'you' with U, replacing 'anyone' with NEone, and so on. I also hate it when people say things that make no sense if you think about it, double negatives and such.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Gandalf, indubitably. Nev, it's the laziness, exactly.

Ith, I can understand if one comes late to a conversation and one hasn't heard what was said before, about foreign speakers, about utter carelessness vs. the occasional errors we all make... then some repetition may be needed. But here we have the entire conversation. In writing. It's all here. It's good manners when you post in a conversation to read what the others have said before you. It's similar to listening to other people and participating. We've already discussed foreign speakers and occasional misspellings.

But here's a handy synopsis, for those too lazy to read:
Thread names alone are listed in the 'Hall of Shame' (that was on the first page by-the-way) because they are not the scattered inevitable misspellings, but appear in bold. Every time you look at your own thread, every time you post in it, you have an opportunity to see and correct the error. Most people post often in their own threads. Sheer laziness to not correct it.
This thread does not pertain to people for whom English is a second language. Foreign speakers tend to be more careful with their writing than most English-speaking natives. Their spelling is often more accurate. They are also fairly easy to spot.
There has been a valid point raised about the difference between the Linguist's point of view on language, and the English major's point of view. This discussion was swiftly overlooked. Of course Tolkien would attract a majority of the latter.
There have been a number of people who have apologized for their spelling. I remain confused by this. Why apologize to us? Just doubleback and fix it. Then you can tell us: I'm sorry, you must have misread my thread.
There are number of people who have defended their poor spelling and grammar. Or have defended the right not to be criticized for it. Does this make their spelling correct? If it does not matter, why is there a standard? Why are there dictionaries? Why is it that an essay gets a big red circle around a misspelling, and resumes with such errors get tossed in the trash without further ado? The standard is real, it's out there, and people are critiquing your spelling whether you hear about it or not. Why use a message board to ingrain a bad habit? My writing, and spelling, has improved since I've started posting. And there has been plenty of room for improvement. A number of the fine writers here have brought me up to their standard.

But if it makes you feel better, I started a thread on 'Nominations: Best Thread Names!' at the same time I started this one. Just to balance things out. That has 20 responses. This has 58. Hmmm.


Now, if you will excuse me, I have to delete 'I guess' and replace it with 'I suppose.' I only have 958 posts to review.

-Maril

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Gandalf_theGrey]

My dear Maril,

For the record, I did in fact read through this thread before adding my two pieces of mithril.

That I chose to respond in what some may deem an irregular manner, is my prerogative.

If ever you have an issue with my spelling and feel inclined to correct me, please feel free. However, if you have an issue with my imagination, posting style, eccentricity, or the way I choose to utilize my freedom of expression ...

Better to live and let live, eh? smilies/smile.gif

* bows *

Gandalf the Grey

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Actually, my response was directed at Ith. Ith had brought up foriegn language speakers, which we've already discussed, and the scattered occasional errors which we'd also covered.

I will edit to make it make it more clear. I agreed with you and Nev.

-Maril

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Maril,

Thank you kindly for clarifying.

This wouldn't be the first time I've misunderstood the written word. The phrase "SPEAK FRIEND AND ENTER" comes to mind. smilies/smile.gif

Cordially,

Gandalf

[Birdland]

Child and Maril - I gu...I supp...oh, Deem it!

I better get to work on my editing as well. But I think I'll take a page from Bethberry's book and change everything to "I reckon"!

[HerenIstarion]

thanks Bb smilies/smile.gif

This thread is fascinating

[Telchar]

This is somewhat unrelated, but the 'I guess' vs 'I deem' made me smile, remembering a small technique for english pronounciation I once forced upon myself and still use. When I went to school and had exsams in English, I realised that I had tremendous difficulty in pronouncing the english 'th-sound' in words like 'think', 'thought' and 'through' ect. What I did in practice was replacing that ohh so common phrase: 'I think' with 'I belive' - which I found not only easy to pronounce but also (to me) sounding more true and heartfelt.

[HerenIstarion]

And were you saying "my gratitude is profound beyond measure, merciful sir" instead of "thank you"? smilies/wink.gif

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

*Dashes in, fresh from a parade of his newly-gathered militia*

Can't stop long. We're due to be invaded (see above) and I must prepare. We'll be ready to fight on the beaches and so forth when Birdland's army of darkness comes ashore.

You cunning devil, Telchar. Such deviousness can only result in advancement.

Lilibet was just here and we practiced for weeks for her. She deems us veddy proper.

It's very gratifying to hear that Canada hasn't fallen into total depravity since it ceased to be part of the Empire. Well done. smilies/smile.gif

Are we in polite company, Squatter?

Are you suggesting that the Downs might be otherwise, Maril? Bethberry's on first-name terms with Queen Elizabeth; how much more polite can it get?

This wouldn't be the first time I've misunderstood the written word. The phrase "SPEAK FRIEND AND ENTER" comes to mind.

I think that you can be forgiven that oversight, O Pilgrim Grey. Either the message was deliberately cryptic, its inscriber's grasp of grammar was somewhat sketchy or it was a mistranslation. It should, of course, have read "Say 'friend' and enter".

I must continue to prepare for the advancing horde of Davy Crockett impersonators; so I bid you adieu.

*Rushes back out to supervise bayonet practice*

[Mlo]

Hmm... This is kind of unrelated to the topic, but what does that 'sp' thingy mean? Everyone keeps talking about sp, so, if anyone can tell me I can leave this very confusing english grammar thread ,or whatever it is smilies/wink.gif .

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Mlo ]

[Eärendil]

I think it means "spelling?", but I am not sure, as I am only a quite little Swede in the wide world after all. smilies/wink.gif

[HerenIstarion]

1 Is your militia very talkative, Squatter? For, as I happen to fancy, the war with Birdland's army should be purely verbal, eh?

2 yes, sp means "spelling" and is put by a poster who's not sure whether the word he's typing is spelled as it should be. Sample:

I fancy an ici-cram (sp?)

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I can assure you that after gas drill, marksmanship and unarmed combat there are elocution lessons, rhetoric classes and a meeting of the ever-popular debating society. Only those who excel in all of these are permitted to take a shiny shilling to the ici-cram parlour.

[Mlo]

Oooo...now I get it smilies/smile.gif . Thanks for telling me smilies/biggrin.gif

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Mlo ]

[Birdland]

"Save us, O God, from the phrasings of the North Americans!"

Resistance is futile, Squatter. We will bury your dictionaries and turn your children into Midwesterners. Not only will you say "I guess", "I reckon", "I figured", and "pretty good", but petrol will become "gas", and torches "flashlights". Before long all of England will be speaking Americanese...just like the French.

Lo! Y'alls very accents shall become nasal and twangy, and all your "O's" will become "A's".

But not all change is to be dreaded. We will also teach you to barbecue, instead of boiling your meat.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Rimbaud]

You still kill and eat animals in that heathen country? How terribly barbaric.

[Birdland]

(Birdie packs her frog gig.)

[mark12_30]

Well, I reckon now I know why I've been rated down from Good to Pretty Good. I figured it was 'cause of my take on stuff, but y'all changed my mind.

Ah wonder whah muh PM box wasn't full of flaming fish. Mebbe 'cause they were all on the barbie. Mesquite or honey lemon?

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Susan Delgado]

Everyone's sayin "ya'll", but I gotta point out that "ya'll" is singular. The plural is, "all ya'll". And you call yerselves hillbillies... smilies/biggrin.gif

[Tarthang]

I most definately agree that topic titles should be grammatically correct. Furthermore, I believe, that a person should take care to ensure proper spelling, when posting a reply.

However, I would like to point out, that the English language is phonetically challenging. For example, Enough (proper spelling) vs. Enuf. Which, in my book, makes the ]occasional[ mis-spelling acceptable.

Birdland, perhaps we Yanks, should teach the Brits how to drive on the RIGHT side of the road, while we're at it.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Tarthang ]

[mark12_30]

Hillbilly?? No Suh. I'm from Rudilin, where they put vinegar on french fries.

[Susan Delgado]

I'm nominating "ppl in fanfiction". Spelling words without vowels is laziness at its extreme and one of my personal pet peeves.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

We shall never surrender, Birdy. Besides, after five minutes in England during the season of mists and mellow sogginess you'll begin to wonder if it was worth coming at all.

However, I would like to point out, that the English language is phonetically challenging.

We've already been through the arguments concerning occasional small lapses. This thread is about the really heinous crimes against literacy, such as mis-spelled thread titles, which are indicators of a lazy and cavalier attitude towards writing.

Birdland, perhaps we Yanks, should teach the Brits how to drive on the RIGHT side of the road, while we're at it.

That's all right. We find it very easy to remember that oncoming lorries denote the wrong side of the road, regardless of what other meanings the word for that side may possess.

I'm nominating "ppl in fanfiction".

I second that motion.

This post was composed without recourse to a dictionary or a spell-checking program.

[Belin]

There are number of people who have defended their poor spelling and grammar. Or have defended the right not to be criticized for it. Does this make their spelling correct? If it does not matter, why is there a standard? Why are there dictionaries? Why is it that an essay gets a big red circle around a misspelling, and resumes with such errors get tossed in the trash without further ado? The standard is real, it's out there, and people are critiquing your spelling whether you hear about it or not. Why use a message board to ingrain a bad habit? My writing, and spelling, has improved since I've started posting. And there has been plenty of room for improvement. A number of the fine writers here have brought me up to their standard.

I feel misunderstood. I do like standarized spelling (reading must have been quite difficult before its imposition), and it does make it much easier for me to read threads, and, in fact, I do notice the thread titles particuarly. The thing I object to is speaking of it in terms of "You are lazy corruptors of the language who cause us all agony! Stop being lazy, you fools!" (which may well be the sort of thing that leads to the dreaded (sp?) ) rather than, "Look, this is how we do it here," preferably followed by instructions concerning ways to accomplish it. As you point out yourself, Maril, modeling is far more helpful than criticism, particularly for those who are more used to writing in some other way. Indeed, I have trouble thinking of it as laziness, since I find it more difficult not to use standard spellings. In any case, to the degree that this thread has made helpful suggestions, it's fine.

But if it makes you feel better, I started a thread on 'Nominations: Best Thread Names!' at the same time I started this one. Just to balance things out. That has 20 responses. This has 58. Hmmm.

I did notice that, actually, and you're quite right. Off I go to post in that.

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

[lindil]

Susan I am a big fan of abbreviations.
And guess where I learned many of my favorites?

JRRT's letters!

Fav
def
w/out
v [very]

are the one's which come most readily to mind.

After reading Mr. Underhill's posting manifesto I have tried to cut down radically on my shortcuts however.

I am actually getting a little scared to post on this thread, now that I know just how much scrutiny I am really under! smilies/eek.gif

And I better not mention my pitiful understanding of when to use [], {}, or - or commas.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Amanaduial the archer]

ill join you there Lindil. What are {}s for anyway? I mean they look pretty and all but otherwise what are they really used for?...i mean i use them occasionally just for the sake of it but...ok now would be a good time to stop my rambling....they arent really nessesary...ok youre all now free to shoot me....

Anyway, its the brits who drive on the right side of the road.

[Susan Delgado]

Lindil, abbreviations are fine in your own personal writings or pretty much any medium other than a message forum, where almost the only things people have to judge your personality is your writing. If you're willing to take such shortcuts here, then you'd take them in any facet of your life.

Also, having such abbreviations breaks up the flow of the post and makes it much harder to read. And don't think I haven't noticed your own phonetic abbreviations and been annoyed by them; I tolerate them because there's nothing I can do about them.
However, for me, "[Whoever] is def my fav char, w/out a doubt." is infinitely more irksome and much harder to stay focused on (especially when the whole post is like that) than "[Whoever] is definitely my favorite character, without a doubt." The former shows sloppiness with the language and a lack of caring for your audience, while the latter shows that you not only care about what you write, but you care about the reader as well and want to make reading your post a worthwile experience.

Incidentally, that's what brackets are for: they are used to replace a word or phrase in a quote with the quoters own words rather than those of the quotee.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Susan Delgado ]

[Eldar14]

I don't think abbreviations show sloppiness with the language, they just show a wish to get one's thoughts and ideas out quickly. Tolkien used abbreviations, and he loved language.

Oh, and one more thing, I personally don't see anything wrong with using elfs (don't know whether this has been discussed yet (didn't have time to read three pages on grammatical and spelling mistakes)) as a plural of elf. Elfs was the plural before elves. It's only within the last hundred years or so that elves has been the plural. And while I'm on the topic of plurals, whenever we talk of mythological dwarfs, dwarves is incorrect. Dwarves is typically the plural for little person, while dwarfs is the plural for mystical creature dwarfs.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Eldar14 ]

[Thenamir]

Everyone's sayin "ya'll", but I gotta point out that "ya'll" is singular. The plural is, "all ya'll". And you call yerselves hillbillies...

<sips his mint julep and adjusts his string tie>

Ah beg yore pahddon, missie, but ah am a native Suth'ner, bohn and raized in th' great state of South Ca'lina, and as such, ah am an ek-spurt on all thangs su'th'n. And ah mus' take p'lite umbrage (a good Su'th'n word) at yore spellin. Ev'ry proud Suth'ner know that it ain't "ya'll", it's "y'all", which is short for "yew all", and is both sing'lar an' plural at th' same time. "All y'all" is propuh as well.

An' you kin tell by the fo'goin' why th' 'postrofee key on most Su'th'n keyboards is blank from constant use...

[Thenamir]

My parody of my ancestral language aside, I find misspellings to be common, a fact that I surmise (my own personal substitute for I reckon/deem/guess/suppose) is caused in part by how quickly and passionately people respond to some topics. Trying to spill my ideas onto a keyboard before they disappear has caused me to commit more accidental spelling errors than almost anything else.

However, these individuals who are attempting to excuse their incorrect spelling on the basis of what I can only call "contextual" or "phonetic" understandability need to be horse-whipped. It is one thing to betray your lack of erudition by making consistent and uncorrected spelling errors. It is another thing altogether to defend those errors and accuse those who would correct them of pendantry.

I cannot defend the English language on the basis of it's simplicity, certainly, for it is one of the hardest and most irregular languages in existence, or so I have been told. However, people have been accurately learning and using the language for hundreds of years. For a person of normal intelligence to fail to acquire enough knowledge for proper usage of his or her native tongue in twelve years of schooling bespeaks a mental lethargy I cannot fathom. Nevertheless, it happens every day. But for someone to defend that mental lethargy and uphold it as a virtue...that conclusion requires a suspension of thinking altogether. In the words of McKellen's Gandalf, it is abandoning reason for madness.

I pray that the normal denizens of this thread will forgive my tirade. Those of you who agree will understand. Those who don't will probably have to have a dictionary near to hand in order to understand what I have said. But at least they will be able to look up the words, since I have made every effort to spell them correctly.

(Post Scriptum: My proofreading skills are not what they used to be. Please withhold your guffaws should I have missed a typo in the foregoing.)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Eldar14, Tolkien himself chose Elves and Dwarves as the plurals of both races. The proofreaders wanted to replace those spellings with the traditional ones of elfs and dwarfs. He made that choice to set them apart, especially the Elves, from the children's fairy story elfs.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

As you point out yourself, Maril, modeling is far more helpful than criticism..
Quite true, Belin. Generally I prefer to be helpful. But as I said on page one, the point of this thread is to complain. Thus the melodramatic title. If I were one of the transgressors the title would have been "AUUUUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Y cn't ppl spel!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Indeed, I have trouble thinking of it as laziness
Yes, I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt. But if the error's in the thread name, it's hard to justify.

lindil
Okay, let's have a special edition of the Lord of the Rings, for those who 'luv' 'abbrv.'

whn mr bilbo baggins annncd. that h wud shortly be celeb. h elvnty1st bday w/a party of spc magnif., there was much talk N excitemnt in hobbiton. b was very rich N v peculiar N had bin the wondr of the shire 4 60 yrs, evr since h remarkbl disapprns N unexpeced rtrn. the riches h had brought bk frm h travels had now become a local legend N it was pop belv, whatevr the old flk might say, that the hill @ b.e. was full o tnls. stuffd w/treas.

Five hundred and twenty-nine pages to go, my dear. Enjoy. smilies/wink.gif

-Maril

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Birdland]

Thenamir, what happened to your accent? smilies/biggrin.gif

Seriously, though; people have been bemoaning the Internet because they believe it will lead to the loss of the written word as an art form. I don't see this myself (though I have to admit my longhand has deteriorated through lack of use.)

I've found my writing style and spelling have been vastly improved by participating in forums. I credit it with keeping the written word alive for me. But that is only the case because I have reached back and tried to remember the lessons of good grammar and spelling that I learned many, many years ago.

But if you are using "chatese" and "internet shorthand" in all of your writings, even when it is not necessary (and yes, I suppose there is an argument for shorthand being used in some of these overcrowded chat rooms), then you are "cutting your own throat". For the time is coming when these lessons in writing will become very necessary.

For most of our forum members who are still in school, the time is coming - quicker than you think - when you are going to have a real need for the grammar and spelling that some other members are demanding of you now. Are you going to write your college essays in "shorthand"? Your resumes? Your letters and e-mails to important clients in the working world?

If you ask most employers what they are seeking - and not finding - in prospective employees, they are going to tell you "someone with good communication skills." And yes, that does include writing! You are missing the perfect opportunity to practice these skills while participating in these forums.

And if nothing else; it should be remembered that this forum is dedicated to a favorite English writer. You can only really honor the author by honoring the written word.

[Eldar14]

Well yes, Tolkien did you use elves instead of elfs. But he was one of the first to do so. I've heard people say the elves is the post-Tolkien form of elfs. And on the issue of dwarfs, in the introduction thingy (yes thingy) in my copy of the Hobbit by Tolkien, he discusses his use of dwarves, and how dwarfs is actually corrects, and that he just uses dwarves for a certain group of dwarfs in the mythos, but I don't remember the specifics.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Eldar14 ]

[lindil]

Whoa!

I think the thrust of my last post was missed completely.

I was pointing out the irony of my source of abbrevitis, not justifying it.

As I mentioned, as per Underhill's request [ and a nagging conscience] I really have tried to cut down on abbreviations and edit my posts more carefully.

I actually appreciate alot of the newer folks w/ [oops] with higher [or shall I say normal] standards of written communication.

It is a real challange for me though. I sat reading JRRT and Thoreau in the woods instead of many [ and I mean many] days of high school and really missed out on alot of the grammar and co. that the zealots in this thread take for granted.

So is [ a serious question]
BTW
IMO
AFAIK etc.,

all out?

And at what point do we concede that some abbreviations have become regularized parts of communication?

Surely p.s., Univ. and the many abbreviations in use 20 years ago [pre-e-speak] elbowed there way in and are now naturalized citizens of english writing.

I do take exception to two points though Susan and that is that

abbreviations are fine in your own personal writings or pretty much any medium other than a message forum, where almost the only things people have to judge your personality is your writing.

While those who have taken the time to learn something 'properly' are easily annoyed [and this applies to me also in areas other than syntax, grammar and such] by those who do not follow the 'rules', one can by exercising a little dis-identification with one's personality and training, see past the superficial and into the essence. Most of us here gladly do that with our much esteemed non-native english speaking posters here. It is only a 1/2 step farther to extend the same mercy to the English speaking natives.

We can if we choose judge someone by the content of the post not the wrapping.

please do not get me wrong I am not advocating sloppiness but I am advocating being able to see past others sloppiness.

If you're willing to take such shortcuts here, then you'd take them in any facet of your life.

I will concede that I do take quite a few short cuts in life, indeed at times my brain seems to sniff them out as a matter of sixth sense, however I also go out of my way to involve myself in various arts [not too mention my religion of conversion] where no real short cuts of any kind are allowed. Tai-Chi Chuan, Orthodox Christianity, The revised Silmarillion, and so on.
So I must disagree w/ the full sweep of your statement. Humans have many different parts of their brain that work in different ways and levels of quality in different people. So not all habits in oneself, will cut across all aspects of the personality.

The absent-minded scientist can be painfuly meticulous in the lab. The artist who can not cope w/ the real world can often navigate his artistic realm with astonishing mastery. Left and right brain development is not often [and I would go so far to say rarely] even within a given individual.

btw I am hereby resolved to bust out [i]Elements of Style and my Bazerman/Wiener Writing Skills Handbook and 'finish' my high school education. smilies/smile.gif

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

lindil, I truly appreciate the effort on your part. I have always found your posts to be insightful, intelligent, interesting... and damned frustrating to read. Often I've given up after the first few sentences.

Most of all I appreciate your using paragraphs at long last. That has made the greatest difference in your writing. I breath a sigh of relief and look forward to perusing your insights with ease in the future.

I thank you.
My eyes thank you.
My optometrist, battling my growing near-sightedness, thanks you as well.

-Maril

BTW, Ith., I was a little rough on you back there kiddo. Bad night at the ranch. Will you accept apologies for my tone?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

For a person of normal intelligence to fail to acquire enough knowledge for proper usage of his or her native tongue in twelve years of schooling bespeaks a mental lethargy I cannot fathom.
(First set of italics my own).

In the absence of any other explanation, I'm going to assume that the intelligence criterion isn't fulfilled in a lot of cases.

And, you see, that's the real nub of this gist: when you don't take care over your spelling and grammar, people think you're stupid; or at least have plenty of ammunition for saying that you are. Unless you say something pretty clever in chat-ese, you may be writing "gandlf (sp?) is best coz he stiks to his mishun and so he wins", but I'm reading "I am a moron, and my opinion doesn't even matter to me".

But for someone to defend that mental lethargy and uphold it as a virtue...that conclusion requires a suspension of thinking altogether.

Maybe it is a virtue. These people aren't confining themselves within the straitjacket of meaning, as I do. Presumably this gives them greater freedom of expression, so I'm going to try it:

fdshviuhurigvREGERGHt greg hreu8gy844t4363vb vgfuids ghvfdvFGREGRg greh gSASTghvbruihb

Which, I think, categorically explains once and for all who Tom Bombadil really was. smilies/wink.gif

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hullo Squatter of Amon Rudh,

In answer to your statement ...

that's the real nub of this gist: when you don't take care over your spelling and grammar, people think you're stupid;

... exactly so.

The silver lining being (to my perspective, anyways) that poor spelling and grammar can be a handy weed-out criterion when you're faced with limited time to spend at the Barrow Downs and only have time to read the most worthwhile posts.

When I must forego reading eloquent thoughts and viewpoints carefully expressed by witty wordsmiths and learned loremasters that recall the prowess of renowned minstrel Daeron of old, having given such wordsmiths top priority and having done all in my power to keep up with their posts but constrained by real life responsibilities such that reading all their gems is more challenging even than obtaining a silmaril, I feel a sense of loss and regret.

However, it doesn't take long to observe those whose consistent "style" features sloppy grammar, inattention to spelling, and mediocrity of thought. Ignoring posts made by people in this second category I do quickly and with nary a backward glance, feeling no qualms whatsoever.

Gandalf the Grey

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

[Melichus]

And for the last time, the word "definitely" is spelled DEFINITELY, not DEFINATELY. I see this one all the time.

[Nevfeniel]

Okay, here's one for the Misspelled Words Hall of Shame: Thinked.
http://plaudersmilies.de/eek6.gif
I seriously have seen this one here at the Barrow Downs. Luckily, I've only seen it once. I hope I never see it again, either.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Hey Nev - who'd'a thunk? smilies/wink.gif

[Susan Delgado]

Indeed.

I'd also like to add "bestest". Bit of an overkill, don't you think?


edit: Hey! this is my elevenhundredy-first post!

edit2: Four ones in a row...I guess that would make me a doubled Pile-O-Bones. I think I'll go line my barrow with Wrigleys smilies/biggrin.gif

ok, enough self-agrandizing. smilies/smile.gif

[ October 27, 2002: Message edited by: Susan Delgado ]

[Rosseiliantiel]

My favourite spelling/language error is when in RPGs (or fanfics), the poster wants to use archaic speach of some sort to make it sound better, but has no idea how, or gets their words mixed up, so you get "Alas, my name is..." and various confusions of thee, thou, thine, etc.

~I'm sorry If someone has already mentioned this, but I have a considerable headache and therefore probably skipped a bunch of posts.

[HerenIstarion]

bestest is probably intended as a pun along Alice in Wonderland lines smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[Childlike Empress]

Is not Lord of the Rings the bestest movie and the bestest book ever made? Oh yeah! If you're obsessed...like me...U ROCK!

This is the context...doesn't look like much of a pun to me.

[Rosseiliantiel]

Is not Lord of the Rings the bestest movie and the bestest book ever made? Oh yeah! If you're obsessed...like me...U ROCK!

Note 'book'. Not books, 'book'. And one does not 'make' a book, unless you're talking about the printing/manufacturing of said book.

[Elenna]

Aaaah! No! Stop the insanity! *Elenna falls on the floor and starts twitching spastically*

All of these errors could be avoided by people merely taking some time to THINK about what they are writing. And maybe paying attention to an English class every once in a while.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

There's that word again: "think". How many people in a given group can be relied upon to engage their brains before attempting an action? From my experiences, I should say about one in ten. Most people simply can neither plan ahead effectively nor review their actions critically once performed, which is why usury is such a profitable business.

[HerenIstarion]

ah, Squatter, even the very wise can not see all ends

so, say 10/10 are thinking, just 1/10 happens to do it in a way you (or me, or anyone else, each picking up different one of ten) find(s) it convenient smilies/biggrin.gif

[Mlo]

This thread is probably the most scary thread in the whole net. Why are you people so obsessed with how other people spell? Ok, maybe the word 'bestest' isn't some normal spelling error, but you still get what he/she want's to say. I've been following this thread ever since I, ehrm, promised myself never to come back to this scary thing (this thread that is, god it's scary), but I think that all of you really dis other people who doesn't have English as a native language, and some people might be quite young to.... So, ok, you are all welcomed to be angry at me, but I just wanted to say this....

[HerenIstarion]

Mlo, as far as I figure out this thread is not intended to scorn people who misspell (like myself), but to make them more attentive to their writing. So there is no need to be scared and no need to expect anybody getting angry with you. And no, sometimes I can't dig out the context among all 'luv expurt mu woce' kind of posts, and yes, I do believe my own posts are sometimes just very unintelligible due to lack of proper language knowledge. I personally started to check all my writings with outlook spell checker program (edit: and I still need to edit it once it is posted) before posting, which I consider as positive effect of this (and several others of similar kind) post

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hey Rosseiliantiel:

Ya wanna bet? Talk to my bookie. smilies/wink.gif

And one does not 'make' a book, unless you're talking about the printing/manufacturing of said book.

* runs back to work before anyone can call him on "ya" or "wanna" *

Gandalf the Grey

[Mlo]

Hrmph....
*can't think of anything more intelligent to say*

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Mlo, it has been mentioned several times in this thread that the true target of our sometimes vitriolic criticism is laziness. None of us is going to be laughing and pointing at every little mistake made by someone who is obviously still learning English, as those who take the trouble to learn a foreign language at all are clearly not guilty of the sort of bone-idle ignorance of which we are complaining.

We are talking about posts which have blatantly been composed and submitted without any thought whatsoever to their meaning, content or legibility, apparently just for the sake of having said something. It's not a diatribe against poor spelling per se, but against the attitude of mind that would rather put (sp?) after a word than spend two minutes looking it up in a dictionary.

To my unmitigated shame and disgust the people who most commonly exhibit this indifference to the written word are people for whom English is their first, and in most cases only, language. That these are also the people most likely to respond with "but it doesn't look like it sounds" only increases my despair. The intention of my own comments thus far, both here and in a similar vein elsewhere has been to attempt a reduction in the number of thoughtlessly inelegant posts on this forum, not to crow over others' less proficient command of the language.

[Bêthberry]

What Squatter said.

Mlo, there is also something else to be said in response to your post--actually two points.

Ok, maybe the word 'bestest' isn't some normal spelling error, but you still get what he/she want's to say.

We also get another message, one that perhaps the person who wrote 'bestest' would not want us to get. That message is that the poster does not spend much time writing his or her posts and does not care to have his or her ideas accurately represented. This message is thus counter to the purpose of posting, for it discourages readers. See Gandalf the Grey's point about how he chooses which posts to pay attention to. Quite often laziness in writing creates the sense in readers that the ideas conveyed are not terribly well-thought out and probably aren't worth reading.

Why does it scare you to learn that some readers read this way? Is this idea new to you? That is all too often the case, that young and new learners of a language do not understand that words convey meanings and messages beyond those of the "content". As has been said countless times here, the arguments are not being marshalled against second language learners or those with disabilities or even against the odd typo and mistake, but against the frame of mind which tolerates sloppy writing and which thinks that the form of language doesn't matter.

I would think that, rather than being scared, it would be valuable to understand how other people read certain kinds of writing, to learn that words are not just a gussied up package for marketing ideas, but that the very words and language and style used to convey an idea are part of the meaning of that idea.

It is really a false notion to think that words and ideas are separate things. No idea is fully formed until it is given shape and form and expression in language.

Let me quote Marshall McLuhan here:

The medium is the message.

Respectfully,
Bethberry

[Susan Delgado]

I still think this comment is among the most telling as far as our commentary here is concerned and directed, and it neatly makes Squatter's point.

For a person of normal intelligence to fail to acquire enough knowledge for proper usage of his or her native tongue in twelve years of schooling bespeaks a mental lethargy I cannot fathom.

[Eärendil]

Personally I think that this thread is really helpful, and have made me pay more attention to my posts (not that I wasn't before, but still).
I generally dislike spelling- and grammar mistakes (in Swedish - my first language), though, I do that quite often myself, at least when writing/speaking English. I am mostly very picky about it, and really dislike it when I make mistakes. It really isn't fun when I am reading things by others that has loads of mistakes either.

I have also found this thread highly amusing, but then, maybe it's just me... smilies/wink.gif
Just my two pieces of mithril,

Eärendil

[red]

My own thoughts on the topic echo those of Maril, Rimbaud, Squatter and Thenamir. Thena, your diatribe was great but, as I'm sure you're aware, will sail right over the heads of those who need it most.

Unless you say something pretty clever in chat-ese, you may be writing "gandlf (sp?) is best coz he stiks to his mishun and so he wins", but I'm reading "I am a moron, and my opinion doesn't even matter to me".LOL!!

Maril, if you need to re-edit a post, you can erase the previous "edited by so-and-so at such-and-such time" so only one will appear.

Simple solution to the problem of sloppy posts: don't read/respond to them. I don't. They aren't worth my effort.

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hullo Bethberry,

You say,

No idea is fully formed until it is given shape and form and expression in language.


So important was this to the Elves that on awakening at Cuiviénen, they named themselves "Quendi" ... meaning, "Speakers." From that day forth, Elves have ever striven to represent themselves with careful excellence, reaching the highest levels of artistic mastery in language spoken, sung, and enscribed on scroll.

Notably, Faramir once remarked that

"all speech of men in this world is Elvish in descent."

Thus, we've a legacy to uphold.

Gandalf the Grey

[Bêthberry]

Dear Gandalf,

*smiles at the unusual daytime visit*

"all speech of men in this world is Elvish in descent."

It might well be said, then, that if the elf-wannabes would only persist in their folly, they might become wise. *nods to Blake*

They might also take their cue from purists such as you. I bow to your fitter expression, in which there is much delight.

Bethberry

[HerenIstarion]

I've found quite a useful thing for people not sure of their spelling and sometimes of meaning of words they use

just look it up for yourselves:

Merriam-Webster Toolbar (http://www.m-w.com/tools/toolbar/)

It goes with the IE 5 or higher, and allows one check the words without going anywhere from the site currently being read - one needs only to highlight the word in question. Enjoy

[HerenIstarion]

Firstly, I have recently revived the counterpart pair of the thread in question:

Nominations: Best Thread Names (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=4730)

So it could be good idea to balance the euphoria down that way.

Besides, the new software employed (VB 3.0) does not allow to edit thread names, hence increased necessity of caution when posting new thread titles.

Let us be reminded!

[Morsul the Dark]

Im putting my self on this thread Im horrible about checking my spelling I must learn to do better but now that Im in an RPG hopefully my skills will improve and Ill get it right finally

[HerenIstarion]

I'm putting myself on this thread as I'm horrible about checking my spelling. I must learn to do better, but now that I'm in RPG, I hope my skills will improve and I'll get it right, finally.

;p

PS Not that I am flawless, myself. Just kidding :)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I was about to start a very similar thread. That would have been highly embarrassing. Anywho, this thread is worth a bump.

Posters should not type then post. They should type, read, then post.

As for particular errors, it is only on the Barrowdowns that I see loose being used in place of lose. What's that all about?

[Durelin]

*gasps*

Searching the forums for spelling threads and I did not find this?! My own thread seems a tad overdone, now... :rolleyes: ;)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Posters should not type then post. They should type, read, then post.

Absolutely, Eomer! May I quote the first three rules for posting well: 1. READ!

2. READ!

3. READ!

To 1: Read the first post so that you know what the topic is. If the topic does not interest or concern you, it’s better to move on than to post off-topic.

To 2: Read the subsequent posts! Make sure that you realize what others have already said before you jump in with a trite repetition that bores all who read it. If you do not take the time to read what others have written, why should they bother to read your posts?

To 3: Read what you have written! The more strongly you feel about a topic, the more important it is to write carefully, proof-reading before you post. Write in your word processing program; save, reread, spellcheck and then, if you’re sure that is what you want to say, post it. Reread after you post – if you notice later that something was not appropriate, edit it to remove parts that could be offensive, or are subject to being misunderstood.
(from Guidelines for Forum Posting (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11805))

[Lalwendë]

And may I add that in some cases of errors in spelling, punctuation or grammar there may be very good reasons. It may be a translation issue, or the poster might have dyslexia or even be vision impaired and relying on spellcheckers which are not always terribly effective at picking up errors. And there are also typos... :eek:

I've been caught out in the past picking someone up on spelling when to my shame there was one of these very good reasons for it, much to my embarrassment. :o I have to say though, I very rarely stumble on a post which simply displays lack of thought - you can usually tell it's one of 'those' posts when some1 wrts lik this cos they thnk its gr8. ;)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

*tut tut* Lal, translation and dyslexia have been covered in this thread. ;)

The gist of the discussion has been that, while errors are inevitable and everyone (well, practically everyone) makes them, lazy posting is not to be tolerated.

[Lalwendë]

*tut tut* Lal, translation and dyslexia have been covered in this thread.

The gist of the discussion has been that, while errors are inevitable and everyone (well, practically everyone) makes them, lazy posting is not to be tolerated.

Ahem... :o Indeed.... Am I told off then? ;)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Consider that a stern warning, young lady. I mean, you come in here and drag back old weather-worn topics which have been discussed to completion literally years ago!

She'll never make it on the Downs.... ;)


Edit to ask: Is four winks in four posts a new record? Nothing but cheek on this forum... :p