Was Eru or the Valar clueless?

[Kronos]

Usually in Lord of the Rings/The Silmarillion prophetic dreams are often seen as messages from either the Valar (or maybe even Eru directly).
I have always supposed that the dreams sent to Faramir and Boromir were of this nature. They could not be just coincidence and certainly Boromir shows no tendency to psychic ability.

So my question is, if these dreams were sent by the Gods (Valar or Eru) did they get it wrong. We know that they came to Faramir first and he dreamt them several times. They came to Boromir later and once only.
The implication is clear. The dreams meant for Faramir to go to Rivendell and (we assume) join the Fellowship.

Now as per the original intentions of the Fellowship this would have been the preferred option. Faramir would be unlikely to cause the breaking of the Fellowship and without it it's possible that Frodo would not have found the courage to try to leave alone.

However we know that the breaking of the Fellowship was the best thing that could have happened. If it had not then Aragorn and Faramir would have likely gone to Gondor. Gimli and the Hobbits (maybe Legolas too) would have gone with Frodo to Mordor.
The latter group would not be ideal in terms of stealth, would have been unlikely to snare Gollum and therefore would not have found the secret way into Mordor. That may have left them unable to get there or they would have had to pass far to the East and come in by the back route. This would have taken so long that Sauron would have likely won in the interim.

Also no Hobbits would come to Fangorn and Rohan would have probably fallen. Rohan would not have come to the aid of Gondor, instead Saruman would have headed that way too. If not to Rivendell.
The army of the dead would not have liberated southern Gondor and the troops so released would not have come to Pelennor.

Basically Gondor would have likely fell even quicker and even if the Ring had been destroyed it would have been too late.

So if the dreams did come from the Gods did they get it totally wrong? Why did they pay more attention to Faramir?

[Eorl of Rohan]

Well, who said that the Valar could forsee the future? They were not GODS in the sense of omnipotence and omnipresense and everything. They were just wise and immortal beings.

And as for Eru, he would not care since none can change the music in my despite, and Melkor shall find that all at last only redoundth to my glory

Maybe Eru moved the heart of Boromir to go himself anyway, for that matter.

[Finwe]

We could also be mis-analyzing the significance of the dreams that came to the brothers. We know that Faramir is the one with Numenorean "capabilities," so do you not find it strange that Boromir, the "ordinary" one, was gifted with such a prophetic dream? I would say that is incentive enough to go to Imladris. If Faramir was meant to go, then Boromir wouldn't have dreamt the same dream.

Also, the Valar are not gods, ergo, they are not infallible. They merely watch over Middle-earth, subtly directing things when things go wrong (i.e. sending the Istari, sending the dream to the brothers, etc.) so that good will ultimately win. What seems like folly to us may, in fact, eventually cause good to triumph over evil. Mortals have no say in the matter.

[zb]

Kronos: You assume that the Valar worked only through the dreams. Is it not possible that they knew the particular family involved, and sent the dreams in such a way as to make Denethor most likely to send Boromir to Rivendell? As finwe said, "If Faramir was meant to go, then Boromir wouldn't have dreamt the same dream".

For an illustration of how Tolkien thought those of Faery* could manipulate history, here's an incident from "Smith of Wootton Major":
(Nokes) flapped his hand mockingly. 'If you've got one of your fairy friends hidden in the Kitchen, send him to me and I'll have a look at him. If he waves his little wand and makes me thin again, I'll think better of him,' he laughed.
'Would you spare a few moments for the King of Faery?' (Alf) answered. To Noke's dismay, he grew taller as he spoke. ... His face was young but stern.
'Old man,' he said, 'You are at least not my elder. And as for my better ... Do you challenge me now openly?' ... Nokes shrank from him, trembling. ...
'No sir!' he croaked. 'Don't do me a harm! I'm only a poor old man.'
The King's face softened. 'Alas, yes! You speak the truth. ... I will grant you your wish. Farewell! Now go to sleep!'
...
When the old cook woke again, the sun was going down. ... 'Ugh! What a dream!' It must have been that pork at dinner.'
From that day he became so afraid of having more bad dreams of that sort that he barely dared eat anything for fear that it might upset him ... He soon became lean ... But till his last year he could be heard saying to any that would listen to his tale: 'Alarming, you might call it; but a silly dream when you come to think of it. King o' Fairy! Why, he hadn't no want. And if you stop eating, you grow thinner. That's natural. Stands to reason. There ain't no magic in it.'


*meant in a broad sort of way, but including JRRT's calling Valinor "Faery" in The Hobbit

[Angry Hill Troll]

Clueless?

Eru: Never
Valar: On several occasions, but not that often

On the question of why Faramir and Boromir both had the dream if only one of them was going to go to Imladris, recall that when Frodo and Faramir meet in Ithilien, it turns out to be very important that Faramir had had that dream:


'Are the riddling words known to you that Boromir brought to Rivendell?' Frodo replied.

Seek for the Sword that was Broken.
In Imladris it Dwells.

'The words are known indeed,' said Faramir in astonishment. 'It is some token of your truth that you also know them.'


This is a key moment in Frodo and Sam's efforts to convince Faramir that they are not enemies. If Faramir had not had the dream, one can imagine that things might have ended much worse. So the reason for Faramir to have had the dream was probably not so that he would go to Imladris.

It isn't clear how things would have gone with the Fellowship if Faramir, rather than Boromir had been sent to Rivendell. But it's pretty clear that Faramir, rather than Boromir, is the brother you would want the hobbits to meet in Ithilien.

There is a thread called "Was Boromir a mistake?" (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=799) which discusses the issue of which of Denethor's sons should have been sent to Rivendell.

[Saraphim]

I agree with Kronos in that if Faramir had gone to Rivendell, things would have spiraled down much faster and to the destrucion of all. It shows that evil contains the seeds of its own destruction, since Boromir fell victim to the Ring, which actually inadvertantly led to the saving of Middle-Earth. (This is portrayed with Gollum too)

But about the Valar and Eru. The Valar seem to me to be like Greek/Roman or Nordic gods. They don't know the future, they're just really wise, like Eorl said. Even Mandos (to a certain degree) did not know the future in exact terms. They had enough wisdom to do wise things to help out, but not enough to know exactly what to do to acheive victory.

As for Eru, to debate whether he knew what he was doing would border on a thoelogical discussion, and I've become afraid of doing that.

[Theron Bugtussle]

Originally posted by Kronos
We know that they came to Faramir first and he dreamt them several times. They came to Boromir later and once only.
The implication is clear. The dreams meant for Faramir to go to Rivendell and (we assume) join the Fellowship.This sounds like good speculation to me. And I have thoughts on it, but I will wait. I intend to check out the thread posted by Angry Hill Troll.

Note: Oops! I couldn't resist...see the rest of my post, especially the end!

Now as per the original intentions of the Fellowship this would have been the preferred option. Faramir would be unlikely to cause the breaking of the Fellowship and without it it's possible that Frodo would not have found the courage to try to leave alone. However we know that the breaking of the Fellowship was the best thing that could have happened.Agreed, Faramir would not have caused the breaking, in my opinion. So why was the breaking of the fellowship the best thing? Eru shows grand oversight and ultimate authority in redeeming bad situations. So would it not be "easier" for him to accomplish his will in better situations?

In addition, the reason that Frodo struck out on his own was he saw the evil influence of the Ring on the members of the Fellowship, especially Boromir, as a major obstacle to his task. Without Frodo picking up the 'vibes' from Boromir, it probably would have been decided much more quickly the route or routes to take, and the continuance of the entire Fellowship as a unit, or its splitting up by agreement. The group would then have set out before the orcs attacked. It was Frodo's asking for time to think, Boromir's subsequent attempt on the Ring, and Frodo's flight that delayed the party until the orc attack.

If [the fellowship] had not [broken] then Aragorn and Faramir would have likely gone to Gondor. Gimli and the Hobbits (maybe Legolas too) would have gone with Frodo to Mordor.
The latter group would not be ideal in terms of stealth, would have been unlikely to snare Gollum and therefore would not have found the secret way into Mordor.Stealth, I think, was only a minor side issue that was fitting to the way Tokien developed the story after the breaking of the Fellowship. Otherwise, the Council of Elrond would have known ahead of time that stealth was ideal, and sent off far fewer than nine in the fellowship. The nine walkers versus the nine riders was only a poetic matchup, after all. The fellowship did not directly encounter the Nazgul.

Aragorn and Faramir likely would have gone to Gondor--but via which route? I can imagine the whole fellowship going through Ithilien, with Aragorn and Faramir splitting off at Osgiliath, if they so desired. Their going directly to Minas Tirith (via any route) before accomplishing the destruction of the Ring is not in any way a proscribed outcome, though.

Certainly, if Faramir could "capture" Gollum, then so could Faramir and Aragorn. (If I am not mistaken, had not Aragorn already captured Gollum at one point?) Then, the wisdom of Aragorn and Faramir would have been applied to the knowledge of the route Gollum proposed--Cirith Ungol--and the betrayal of Frodo to Shelob would have been countered. The fellowship could have made it through that pass more or less intact, in my opinion. Further speculation along that line is probably useless.

Also no Hobbits would come to Fangorn and Rohan would have probably fallen.This is an obvious problem with our kind of speculation--after the fact, and without the wisdom and years of mental investment that the author had built up. Who is to say that an entirely different route, such as via the Gap of Rohan, could not have been justified by Tolkien? With the hobbits entering Fangorn via some other separation technique?

Or that Fangorn and Treebeard were even needed? Tolkien did not put the hobbits there on purpose to stir up the Ents, according to his Letters. That part of the story just developed once the hobbits showed up in Fangorn. How much of the story was altered or forced into its ultimate path because of that? So our speculation here is probably baseless.

So if the dreams did come from the Gods did they get it totally wrong? Why did they pay more attention to Faramir?Because Faramir had the superior wisdom, self control, and learning of lore from Gandalf, his father, and his own research, I suspect, to make a far better member of the Fellowship.

It would have been Denethor who, seeing this, but refusing it in his warped way, would have refused to permit Faramir to go to Imladris. Then, when Boromir got the dream (Eru's/Valar's Plan 'B'), Denethor would be all ready to send his favored first-born off to glory...and unintentionally, his ultimate death.

[Finwe]

Ah, but if Aragorn and Faramir had gone with the Fellowship into Mordor, Minas Tirith would have fallen. No Rohirrim would have ridden to its aid, since they would have probably been annihilated by Saruman's Uruk-hai hordes at Helm's Deep, and the Corsairs would have set upon Gondor from the harbor. Boromir would not have been able to hold Minas Tirith against such odds. As it was, the Citadel nearly fell, even with Gandalf there.

The Fellowship would have been hard put to stay out of the sight of Orcs when they got into Mordor. Even Frodo and Sam had to think quickly to deal with the Orcs that spotted them, even while those Orcs were "draining" out of Mordor.

Having Faramir go with the Fellowship just wouldn't have worked. The Fellowship had to break. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli had to be at Helm's Deep. They had to go on the Paths of the Dead. Merry had to be with Theoden and Eowyn. Pippin had to be in Minas Tirith with Denethor and Faramir. Frodo and Sam had to be with Gollum, in Mordor. Everyone had to be at the Black Gate to divert Sauron's Eye, otherwise Frodo and Sam wouldn't have made it to Mount Doom.

[Nirvana II]

nope
the dreams were sent by Irmo....his brother knows all things....and the Valar are not clueless....