*TTT - The Battle of Helm's Deep*

[Estelyn Telcontar]

How did you like the battle scenes?

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

I loved the battle at Helm's Deep. I even liked the Elves there. It worked with the movie script. It almost seemed as though it could've been a battle out of <I>The Silmarillion</I>.<BR>The orc contest between Gimli and Legolas did not last as long as in the books, but I am glad that it was in there at all. <BR>I am a little sad that Gimli didn't see the caves, though.<BR>I thought it was great the way PJ showed the Rohirrim preparing for war... the fact that old men and children were preparing to fight... and Legolas and Aragorn's debate about that. It really helped build more relationships and show the importance of winning the battle.

[piosenniel]

Well done! Though not long enough. <P>Would like to see PJ's vision of The Fall of Gondolin.

[Rose, the youngest]

I thought Helm's Deep was the most amazing epic battle sequence I have ever seen! I didn't expect to hear so many humorous lines from Gimli. Like when he told Aragorn to throw him onto the paraphet, but warned him not to tell the elf. LoL! I was rolling!

[TolkienGurl]

Tigerlily- Remember, there is still an extended DVD to buy within the next year. Do not despair! Hopefully the Caves will be there!

[Bêthberry]

But what kind of cinematic battle is it? Like those incredible feudal battle scenes of Akira Kurosawa, truly sublime, or more like that general in Francis Ford Coppola's <I>Apocalypse Now</I> who loves the smell of napalm in the morning because it smells like victory?<P>Bethberry

[Massharpoon]

I thought the battle was amazing. I loved the parts with Gimli and Legolas. I just did not like the elves at helms deep. I'll goe see it again and hopefully my opinions will not be so negative.

[Pookabunny]

The Battle at Helm's deep. Hmmm.... did I like it? <BR> I do not have the linguistic skills to express in words how compelling that battle sequence was. It was the most riveting, gripping, compelling, exhausting thing I've ever seen on the screen. It killed me, but at the same time sucked me in - it was the most incredible thing I've ever seen. I've NEVER in my life cried so much in a 3-hour span of time.

[Massharpoon]

I wish I had seen that movie. My tears were for a different reason all together.

[Bêthberry]

Pookabunny, that's okay. Clearly the film grabbed you. Have you seen other battle scenes in movies? How does Helm's Deep compare to those?<P>I ask as someone whose husband has watched Midway, Waterloo, The Longest Day, etc etc. countless times. Which means I've watched them with him. Until I discovered the Downs, that is. <P>Bethberry

[Túroch]

I agree Massharpoon, my tears were for the loss of what I remebered as the Rohirrim. Two big complaints for helms deep. <P>1:WHERE IS ROHAN"S ARMY? THey made it look like they had no army and had to defend themselves with babies and old men. Then they brought the elves to "save" the "poor" Rohirrim who obviously can't save themselves. Ohh come on. <P>2:WHERE'S EOMER. Where is he? He is my favorite character through all the books? HE was supposed to be whoopen *** along with Aragorn, but noooooo they had to shove him out of the picture.

[thorondil]

I loved the battle scenes but I echo Turoch's complaints.<P>Rohan's army was made to look insignificant and Eomer and his men should have been fighting at Helm's Deep at the beginning. He should have been released in Meduseld after Gandalf broke Theoden's spell. It was Erkenbrand of the Westfold who comes with Gandalf like the cavalry (I guess they were the cavalry .) I groaned when the brigade of Elvish archers showed up.<P>But the battle scenes were cool and I loved to watch it and will do so again. At least Legolas and Gimli were counting!

[Lindolirian]

I agree with Turoch. It was so sad when the little boys are suiting up for battle. But, the battle itself was .... indescribable. I think Legolas should have gotten a box for Gimli, because he could NOT have described as well as it was shown.

[AddictedtoRumil]

I liked it but those little boys going into war made a chill run down my spine! They were so cute though! and Haldir's death didn't exactly thrill me.

[Gandalf_theGrey]

<B>Bethberry:</B><P>Personally, to answer the question "what kind of a cinematic battle" was the battle in TTT, to what other film it can be compared, I would need to be silly and say ... * drumroll please * ... FotR! <P><B>thorondil, lindolirian</B> and <B>AddictedtoRumil:</B><P>Your posts speak well what I would say.<P>* bows *<P>Gandalf the Grey

[Aragorn2002]

I thought the battle scene was incredible! It was really cool with the ladders. It was a bit different than what I thought of when I read the book, but oh well, it was worth it.
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[Pookabunny]

Ooops! I'll elaborate.<P>I loved the movie. All 3 hours of it. Honestly, the battle was not my favorite part, but because of my deep passion for the books and the movies, I felt it to be the best battle I've ever seen on the big screen. That's not to disrespect so many wonderful and intense war movies (and the battle scenes in them), because there are some movies that I love that have incredible battle scenes. However, my intense love for Lord of the Rings has given me a biased opinion when it comes to judging it's climaxes (when compared to others).<P>Again, that's not to knock other movies.

[AddictedtoRumil]

Muchos Gracias Gandalf the Grey<BR>(thank you very much)

[-Imrahil-]

Definately an amazing battle scene. I was on the edge of my seat. A glorious epic it was and I loved it!

[Aragorn2002]

On the Egde of your seat?!? I was laying on the floor!
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[Beren87]

WHY?! were there elves of Rivendell at Helm's Deep!!!??!<P>Was that blonde-haired elf supposed to be Glorifindel? Someone was talking and I couldn't catch the name when Aragorn said it,

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Do you mean Haldir???<P>One of the parts that I thought was a little campy was the Olympic torch run to light the bombs. Sometimes slow motion doesn't work so well. Oh well, it made up for it right after with Aragorn yelling at Legolas to "kill him". Very intense acting on his part.<BR>I understand why they let Eomer be the one to come and help at the end. The introduction of another character that we only see for two seconds would confuse audiences who haven't read the books even more. I liked the moment when Gandalf arrived with him and the Rohirrim.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Where was Eomer? Let me answer your question. Eomer along with his Men and Gandalf SAVED THE DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>Eomer was made to look like a truly awesome hero. Him and Gandalf at the end were slicing through Orcs like carrots. You cannot try and tell me that wasn't cool.<P>Now I really liked Erkenbrand (I love all the minor characters) however, it was totally necessary and understandable to leave him out, for the reasons already mentioned. Who else, would come and save the day? This, of course, means that Elfhelm and Grimbold are almost certainly not going to be in the films.<P>I agree that Rohan's army was made to look tiny. 300? It can't have been that in the book, was it?<P>Did that boy name himself Haleth son of Hama? Haleth? That's a girl's name buddy, please let me be wrong.<P>That Orc that Legolas tried to bring down was hardcore! Even Boromir dropped to his knees after 2 arrows.<P>Legolas shooting down the ladder. Sweet!<P>And did Aragorn and Gimli look like superheroes or what? 2 against how many? <P>Also glad that Theoden got to lay some smackdown as well. But anyway, I ramble so badly. Helm's Deep, the greatest of all.

[Child of the 7th Age]

The battle scenes were strong. And although we know about Ekenbrand in the book, I can accept PJ's little alteration and understand the reasons for it. Also like others, I found the scenes where the young boys suited up to be among the most compelling. Tolkien did clearly indicate that those initially at Helm's Deep were either too young or too old, and PJ has gone with this. The seasoned warriors only show their faces with the reappearance of Eomer.<P>sharon

[Bêthberry]

The River-Daughter's Daughter appears, with a good-natured grin in response.<P>Quite so, <B>Gandalf the Grey</B>, an internal comparison has its merits. *curtsies* Yet knowing the depth, breadth and height of other visions can often provide a perspective. Did PJ stand on the shoulders of giants or did he merely share others' footsteps?<P>Bethberry

[Aragorn2002]

The battle scene also had humor in it...<BR>Gimli:What's happening?<BR>Legolas:Would you like me to describe it for yo or should I get you a box?
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[lindil]

Togerlily said "One of the parts that I thought was a little campy was the Olympic torch run to light the bombs. "<P>my thoughts exactly/<P>As for the over all scene it was great I agree of course w. Thorondil and co. that the elves were out of place [ literally] but i went with it, luckily I had heard vauge intimations, and AT LEAST ARWEN WAS NOT WITH THEM!!!!!!!!!!<P>What a relief that was!<P>The battle itself was spectacular, now he has to go over the top completly w/ Minas Tirith.<P>Did I miss something or did Aragorn take a ladder after Haldir's death [ I guess that is what you get for being in the wrong time at the wrong place!] was very well done but what was up w/ aragorn taking a ladder and throwing himself into the midst of the Army and then not bothering to show him fight his way out.<P>Maybe I missed it did he take a ladder to go further into the deep?<P>I must say I managed not to let it interefere w/ my enjoying the movie [ much] but PJ's incessant desire to change major characters motives is irksome. <P>And I would much rather have seen the huorns come and leave the battle feild a silent eerie scene at the end. w/ Legolas proclaiming " the trees have eyes"!

[Thenamir]

The comparisons between TTT and the work of Kurosawa are apt. I found the protracted battle of Helm's Deep similar in feel and pacing to the final lengthy battle in <I>The Seven Samurai</I>. (If you wish to see another well-crafted battle scene, I heartily recommend it, although it is in Japanese subtitled in English.) Both battles have the same sort of hopeless-odds, no-way-out kind of feel, and get you just as emotionally involved rooting for the good guys. <P>Now obviously PJ has the edge in technological and cinematographic choices -- but that's one reason why Kurosawa is recognized as such a genius -- becuase this movie was made long before the advent of all these CGI shenanigans. Nevertheless, PJ should now be recognized as being in the same category of genius for bringing epic cinema back to life.<p>[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Thenamir ]

[Gandalf_theGrey]

<B>Bethberry:</B><P>Indeed there is another film to compare with PJ's FotR and TTT which affects my emotions similarly in terms of the epic grandeur and sheer overpowering awe of a battle scene made with a cast of thousands.<P>To me, the scene where Pharoah's army follows the Hebrews into the Red Sea in Cecil B. DeMille's classic film production "The Ten Commandments" vintage 1956 evokes an atmosphere similar to that of The Last Alliance of Elves and Men in FotR and The Battle at Helm's Deep in TTT. <P>As well, that exodus scene from "The Ten Commandments" captures the poignant human flavor of the journey of Rohan's refugee residents to the hoped-for safety of the caves.<P>Gandalf with his staff at Helm's Deep as mention is made of the tide turning, Moses? (Or perhaps that is a stretch.)<P>Gandalf the Grey<p>[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

[Birdland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The comparisons between TTT and the work of Kurosawa are apt.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thenamir - Our own local reviewer compared Helm's Deep to the battles in <I>Ran</I>. Of course, I always said that Kurosawa would have made a kick-butt version of LoTR!

[Ithaeliel]

I was awed by the battle of Helm's Deep. It didn't show too much gore or too little, and though most of it was tragic they did manage to lighten it up with humor. They even had the head count between Legolas and Gimli! I loved it. I especially liked when Aragorn and Gimli ran down the gate-breaking force. All in all I thought it was the greatest battle scene I've ever witnessed. I felt like I was THERE.

[Nilaraniel]

I've only read TTT a couple of times, and I know the Elves were not supposed to be at Helm's Deep... So WHY did Haldir have to die? He is by far one of my favorite characters and I was in tears when that guy came up behind him. It's traumatizing enough to see any Elf die, let alone one of my favorites. Is he EVER mentioned as dying in the books? If so I completly missed that part... Correct me if I'm wrong about this!<BR>Other than than that I thoroughly enjoyed the movie and am planning on going back tomorrow night, although I will keep my eyes closed for one scene...

[Massharpoon]

I saw the movie afain today and I still did not like the battle of Elves Deep. I am not going to ramble on about it but I didn't realize you could just ride your horse through an army of Orcs and they would just fall off a bridge. Sorry.

[Elanor]

I thought the battle scenes were well done, but I wasn't gripped by them. My friends who have not read any Tolkien loved them, thought they were brilliant etc, but I found myself getting a bit bored to be honest. I also really missed the scene when Aragorn rides out to see the dawn, and talks to the orcs. "Bring out your skulking king", and then Theoden rides out, the sun rises and the orcs see the huorns that have appeared overnight. Aragorn is truly regal and powerful and the orcs are terrified. What a great scene missed PJ missed out on...

[Rosseiliantiel]

The battle at Helm's Deep was absolutely brilliantly done, except for one little thing: <BR>Legolas' shield surfing. One orc with a pike...

[QuickSlash]

I loved it. My favorite part of the movie, though the ents are a close second. <P>Comments:<BR>Helm's Deep didn't look at all like how I'd imagined it. Most of the things the movies have done have, but the design of Helm's Deep was nothing I had expected.<BR>As my friend put it, "Legolas surfing down the stairs like an Elven Rambo." I thought it was good, though.<BR>They didn't finish the numbers of Legolas and Gimli's orc count. Maybe they will in RotK, but I think that they should've noted it now.<BR>I'm against the death of Haldir at Helm's Deep. I'm not against the elves, though, as it made it seem like the elves still cared about the affairs of men.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The Orcs were not terrified of Aragorn when he was standing on the wall in the book. The Wild Men were though.

[Manwe Sulimo]

That was simply the most awesome (the literal term, not the slang term), compelling, and amazing battle (I hesitate to call it a "scene"; it was, after all, about a half an hour) that I have ever seen....every bit of it was amazing, from the Elves to the Rohirrim boys to that cool ballista....<P>At the very beginning of it, when the Uruk-hai were stamping their spears, I immediately though of Geraldo Riviera saying "Oh, my, it looks as if the Uruk-hai are unable to charge the Deep because...well, because they just chopped their own feet off. More on that in a moment...."<P>Coolest part: all of it. You can't pick just one. <P>How about that horn? Heh? It's like a tuba cubed!

[Bêthberry]

Thank you, <B>Thenamir</B> and <B>Birdie</B> for noting my comment on Kurosawa. For me, the battle at Helm's Deep did not compare well because in TTT there were several disjarring moments which, instead of in some way highlighting or extending the ethos of the battle, they detracted from it. I doubt PJ wanted to do a truly epic battle scene.<P>Legolas and Gimli keeping track of their counts was one. Yes, I recognize this kind of behaviour in wartime, but I don't think this particular point of characterization was done in terms of a serious battle. It was silly cavalier derring-do, like Han Solo's quick quip to Luke, "Great! Don't get cocky, kid."<P>Gimli and Aragorn outside the gate joking about tossing a dwarf was another. Again, a discordant intrusion had this been intended to be a tragic battle scene. A cheap laugh.<P>Gandalf the White arriving on his rearing charger with the cavalry. As Birdie put it in a PM to me, "Hi-ho Silverfax"--that's a reference to the old American TV show of the Lone Ranger, for those of you too young to have heard of the show. So, for me, <B>Gandalf the Grey</B>, this arrival of the wizard held no reminders of Cecil B. DeMille's biblical epics. I burst out loud with derisive laughter. Moses I would have much preferred. We each see what we each see.<P>The issue appears to be one of how PJ conceived of the battle. It isn't <I>All Quiet on the Western Front</I>. Or even <I>Saving Private Ryan</I>. Or <I>Gallipoli</I> Or <I>Band of Brothers</I>. <P>It was intended to thrill as a visual spectacle and adventure but not stir us profoundly--give us a little sense of battle, but not too much, so we aren't truly twisted dry of emotion and left drained. These intrusions into a serious tone are part of the popular movie ethos. We're working always with <I>Star Wars</I> even if it occasionally appears that we are being given something different (the visual allusion to <I>Triumph of the Will</I> when Saruman looks out upon his army at Isengard).<P>This is an amusement park ride. Thrilling and well done and vastly fun, but candy for short (or tired) attention spans and not food for thoughtful contemplation. In the end, TTT has little to do with stirring in us profound awareness of Tolkien's issues of good and evil. It is a safe ride and not a perilous journey.<P>Bethberry<p>[ December 22, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[Dorathain_Flamesword]

PJ did an excellent job with Helm's Deep. I was too, disappointed in the fact that the caves were not shown, but there will be an extended version so, not to worry! I loved it when Gimli said, "I should've picked a better spot!" when the wall was higher than his eyes and it panned through the tall Men, standing straight, almost all the same size, and then you see a gap between to Men and the top of Gimli's helmet. I was cracking up. Very good battle, it wasn't long enough though, and I think the program they used to do Helm's Deep was cool, where they just make two armies and let them just fight each other, its like tiny little guys in your computer.

[Merigrin]

For horse-lord's was it me or throughout the film, didnt you expect to see <I>more</I> horses? <BR>Also the only problem I had with the battle was when Gandalf and the rest charged down that hill and jumped into the orcs, horse's would never jump such a thick, solid barrier like that, they would try to go round it. Napoleon (sp?) used squares to upset the cavalry long ago, and the same would of happened here. <BR>Also when Aragorn etc galloped out trampling the orc's, which would be understandable if the where at full gallop and the orcs where dead, and that hadnt seen them until the last second. <BR>But it was an amazing battle, and it made you gasp. And I enjoyed it.

[Bêthberry]

Legolas skate-boarding down the stairs was another miscue for me. Perhaps I can turn to some of Tolkien's words in an effort to explain what, for me, is missing in The Battle of Helm's Deep.<P>The battle is not supposed to be fun for the participants, particularly the leaders. Here is what Tolkien says about the incursion of the chivalric ideal into the heroic ideal. I think it works equally for this intrusion of comedic moment.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>... he (Beorhtnoth) was responsible for all the men under him, not to throw away their lives except with one object, the defence of the realm from an implacable foe....It was heroic of him and his men to fight, to annihilation if necessary, in the attempt to destroy or hold off the invaders. It was wholly unfitting that he should treat a desperate battle with this sole real object as a sporting match, to the ruin of his purpose and duty. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><I>The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth</I><P>Bethberry

[Cherie Centaur]

I'm not much of a carnage and battle fan but I liked this one, though I have major problems with everyone in Edoras being there and I won't get into the whole Elf army thing. I also hated how they demoted Gimli to comic relief, though I laughed at every joke. Also, Eomer saving the day at the last minute was, after certain misrepresented ideas about a certain Gondor captain, too much to handle. Sorry Turoch, I'm not as big a fan of Eomer as you.<p>[ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: Cherie Centaur ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I am struggling to accept that some people don't love Eomer.

[Cherie Centaur]

I like Eomer, I just don't adore him. He's a little too rough and edgy for me. Though the whole at-the-last-minute-old-western-calvery thing was a bit much.

[Túroch]

Do remeber that the whole at-the-last-minute-old-western-calvery thing was a contrivance of PJ not Tolkien. I so wish Eomer had been given his proper role at helms deep.

[Pukel-Man]

Shield-surfing-complete crap.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

When I watched the movie the first time, it didn't bother me so much, but now that I've seen it a few times, I'm getting more and more puzzled. At the end of the battle, when Aragorn is convincing Theoden to "ride out and meet them," there are no horses in the hall. But seconds later, there *are* horses in the hall, ready to be ridden forth to glory. How did they get there? Also, when the Deeping Wall and gate are breached, you see that to get into or out of the hall one must traverse at least one flight of stairs. Horses don't do stairs. And they certainly don't charge down them.<P>So I ask: is there some sort of horse elevator that I'm unaware of?<P>Cheers!<BR>-Lily

[Ophelia]

Ofcourse there were many bad shots and mistakes . But I just like battle sceenes so I like Helm's Deep only couldn't it been a bit shorter ? I mean , PJ would have more time to show Shelob or something .