*TTT - Faramir (David Wenham)*

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What do you think of Faramir and the actor who plays him?

[Sharkû]

I have heard a couple of opinions already. Except for one, they all fell into the category of "ruined. Utterly ruined." <BR>Without a doubt, I have to agree, and it is not Wenham's fault. [My personal reaction in the cinema was facepalming and commenting "What the?!" on his worst lines.] <P>There are two points of view from which Faramir in the movie can be considered. From the point of a Tolkien illiterate, you get a character which is almost to be expected in the pattern of men who are confronted with the Ring. People know his brother Boromir, they know Faramir as well already, since the differences are not there. I cannot see how that is any benefit to the movie compared to the real Faramir. If the only addition that can be made adds nothing to the picture, don't add it. Boromir at least got to redeem himself in the first movie. Faramir did not get that chance (hopefully, not <I>yet</I>).<P>More important, however, is that Faramir does not only not add to the picture, but destroys what is so intriguingly painted in the books. Why ever a good and interesting character has been changed into a bad and uninteresting one is beyond me.<P>If the nature of Men, especially that of Gondor, has to be stressed (and it should), it should fit the world described. The rôle of Faramir is very important to The Lord of the Rings, as he is the other side of the medal of which Boromir is one. Without Faramir, the ambiguity of the legacy of Númenor is wasted. <P>Faramir is arguably the most positively portrayed man next to Aragorn. He was a point of indentification for the author himself to an extent. Omitting all that would need very good reasoning. Changing it into the opposite reminds of Gandalf. For he who breaks a character has left the path of wisdom.

[Rimbaud]

I have not seen the film, but somehow that saddens me more greatly than any other discrepancy yet mentioned. Sharkû, your observations are highly valuable and valued, as ever.

[TolkienGurl]

Faramir was portrayed as a 'bad guy' and it really bothers me. He was supposed to be the opposite of Boromir- beset by the same temptation, yet overcoming it! Yet he says "The Ring is going to Gondor," or something of the sort. Frodo and Sam are taken to Osgiliath! I really don't understand WHY they did that. More drama? Hardly. It would be much more entertaining if it was done by the book. That way people could see that there was still hope, even in Men.

[Nerdanel]

I try to look at these movies for what they must surely have been; one of the most difficult adaptations to the medium of film that has ever been attempted. I commended PJ for the FotR because I was amazed at how much word-for-word dialogue was actually in the movie, plus the chapter titles from the book that actually became lines. And the changes that occured; I could see how they fit in the overall difficulty of reducing so rich a tapestry into a mere three hours of film time-characters had to be cut, scenes had to be adapted. And while it was different, it worked. <P>But I do not understand why Faramir was changed so drastically. I tried to rationalize it. I tried to reconcile it. The only thing I could come up with was that PJ was trying to illustrate visually the inner turmoil he was going through when presented with the Ring of Power and what it could mean for Gondor. But: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Without Faramir, the ambiguity of the legacy of Númenor is wasted.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What else can you say?<p>[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: Nerdanel ]

[Kalimac]

I hate to hear what's been done to Faramir; I'm going to see the movie tonight and am going to have to really grit my teeth for those scenes, I'm sure. The *only* thing that I can think of that they could mean by doing this is that they wanted to give Faramir a character arc, sort of like the one they gave to Aragorn (indecisive to decisive, instead of just plain old decisive like he was in the book). I don't know if you've ever seen the Tolksarc "Tolkien Board Game" where the "Faramir" card is described as "Doesn't do anything, but hang onto it anyway." They might have been thinking of him like that; instead of having gentle Faramir all the way through, let's start him off as a Boromir clone and then have him be Saved By The Love Of A Good Woman in ROTK. Which is a pity.<P>Sorry for all the burbling when I haven't even seen the movie yet. I'll be back afterwards, of course .

[obloquy]

I am disgusted.

[TolkienGurl]

Could you elaborate? Some reasons why you feel that way? <P>Just Curious

[Mintyztwin]

I agree: I am disgusted. <P>In the books, Faramir gives hope for mankind (along with Aragorn) by showing us that at least not ALL of them are weak scum tempted by the ring!! But now, words fail me. He is completly destroyed. He's not at all sympathetic to Gollum OR Frodo at the pool! And in the end EVERYONE in Gondor knows about the ring! In the book, just Faramir knew! (Right?) Also, when he finally does let Frodo go, it's more along the lines of, "Well, obviously, I can't keep it, 'cause the Nazgul are going to get it!" <P>In short, it was infuriating. I loved Faramir in the books! And now, alas! "He is fallen into shadow."

[Túroch]

I to concur, I am disgusted and I don't know what I can do to clense myself of the taste of such a travesty.<P>The butchery of Faramir is just one of several. He stood as a desreption of the Dunedain of the south. He showed that the blood of the men of Westernse still ran true in some. Not any more apearently. Farmir like Eomer has been destroyed, see this to here about poor Eomer's portayl <BR> <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001462" TARGET=_blank>http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001462</A>

[TolkienGurl]

<B>Mintyztwin</B>, you hit the nail on the head!

[-Imrahil-]

This depresses me because I am about to see the movie soon. From what you guys say it sounds quite bad.

[Steel_lilly]

They ruined Faramir.<BR> That was my first comment after the movie was over. Faramir was the better brother, yet here he is the same, even worse, for the ring reaches him far before it ever did Boromir. Faramir, in the books, shows the good side of mankind, the side that people aspire, or should aspire, to become, not the side that most are. Not to say that Boromir is bad or anything (I’m belong to the ‘Boromir is good’ side), but Faramir is far the better man. Perhaps it could be the fact that as the younger there was never as much preasure to be worthy to become the next Steward. But that would go into another thread, I’d think. Other then the minor thing with Faramir I adored the movie, better then the first.

[Sharia]

Faramir was my hero and now............. I don't know what to say, they've ruined him. I loved Faramir for every thing he was and for everything he wasn't (but that Boromir was) I love how you (in the books) can sorta compare them both, see the similarities and the differences. Sorry if this doesn't make any sense, I'm just too upset to think properly (and this is 2 1/2 hors after the film finnished). I always felt I could kind of relate to Faramir because in the book he's the one that is most like me (personalitywise, I've never experienced any wars or anything) and now......he's just an arogante prick. What have they done to him! Ok, I'm gonna go and take all my aggresions out on some poor inosent tree and then I'll cry a bit.....Faramir......oh, Faramir....what have they done to you?..........

[Lindolirian]

Let me say this first: We are dwelling on the bad stuff in the movie. True, Faramir was ruined and Shelob misplaced, but it still was a good movie. I'm still trying to get over what they did to Faramir....

[The Barrow-Wight]

It seems to me that PJ used Faramir to simplify things in the next movie. By having Faramir bring the Ring to Osgiliath, the movie won't have to explain why Sauron doesn't see the Ring within the borders of his own lands. The books explain it well, but it would take a lot of extra footage to really show why Sauron was so preoccupied outside of his own borders and seemingly blind to the Ring. Now it will be clear why Sauron never thinks to look so near himself. His own henchman saw the Ring in Gondor! It will surely be in the hands of the King Returned (which I hope he sees early in the next movie via the Orthanc palantir).<P>PJ made things easier on himself at the expense of Faramir's character. We know better and still respect and love you, Faramir.

[Sharia]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Now it will be clear why Sauron never thinks to look so near himself. His own henchman saw the Ring in Gondor! It will surely be in the hands of the King Returned <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Isn't the reason that Sauron didn't find the ring because he was preoccupied with the war and that he simply didn't expect anyone to be "foolish" enough to try to destroy it? Sorry it's late and I think slowly at this time of the night, but why would Frodo have to go to Osgiliath, just one extra line (probably one of Gandalfs) could tell us why he didn't look within the borders of Mordor.

[AddictedtoRumil]

Ooh David Wenham he looks alot like Sean Bean he is so cute!

[Gandalf_theGrey]

<B>Sharkû:</B><P>* applauds your post in particular *

[Lindolirian]

Very well put Barrow-Wight! I am ashamed that I hadn't thought of it. Alas, I was too worried about the variation from the book. Suddenly I think what ole PJ was doing might have actually been okay. Argh...

[Diamond18]

Why make a pretense? Why call him Faramir at all? Just call him Boromir's Clone.<P>I like Boromir, but Faramir is supposed to be better. He is supposed to be a ray of hope in a dark and dismal journey. He is supposed to be wise and gifted with foresight and gentle and kind! Frodo and Sam were supposed to feel safe, they were supposed to leave Henneth Anuin feeling refreshed and equiped with strengthened resolve. They were supposed to be marvelling at the grace that allowed them to encounter an unexpected friend and ally.<P>David Wenham could have made a good Faramir. In the pictures I saw of him before, he had the gentle and wise expression of the true Numenorian that he is. But gone was that expression in the movie. His motivation was that of a predictable, weak man. He wanted to please his papa and send him a gift. The real Faramir would never be so pathetic at the expense of Frodo.<P>I can forgive other things about the movie or adopt the "it's a different median" consolation, but I can't explain away Faramir.<P>The reason Sauron didn't notice Frodo and Sam was because Aragorn looked into the Palantír and drew his attention away. The whole Osgilliath scene was idiotic, except that it included one of the few actually touching parts in the movie—when Frodo almost kills Sam after Sam has saved him. PJ obviously got the whole idea from the time in the Tower of Cirith Ungol where Frodo reacts rabidly to Sam having the Ring. Whether or not it was good Frodo characterization, I actually felt a tinge of emotion (which was a rarity for me in this movie).<P>Anyway, back to Faramir. When he finally decided to let Frodo go it made no sense. "Oh, I see that the Ring is really bad because you say it drove Boromir mad, and Frodo, you aren't looking too good yourself. Go get killed and have fun."<P>Speaking of which, I really, realliy missed the part where Faramir tells them about Boromir's funeral boat. In the movie he says that Boromir is dead, but how does he know? Plus, that would have been a very emotional scene to depict; Faramir wading out into the water to find his beloved brother dead. That would have made up for all the "You're coming to Gondor" crap at least a little bit.<P>All in all, the big problem is that there is nothing good to say about this creation of PJ's. Even Arwen whom so many people hate can be defended, but I don't buy any explanation for monsterizing Faramir.

[GreyIstar]

Yes he is different. But is he really different? I don't think it is Faramir being different but PJ placing more emphasis than Tolkien did on the corruptive power of the ring on men. It tempted Aragorn in the first movie so would it not be out of place to have it not tempt Faramir at all? That would make him more noble than the Noble King of Gondor would it not? And in the end Faramir proved to be better than his brother by letting Frodo go. Boromir undstood the ring after it was too late. Faramir understood it before it was too late.<P>However what will the Extended version do to his character?? Remember Galadriel seemed dark and edgy in the original version of Fellowship but in the Extended version we see her lighter side.<P>But I agree with the Barrow that it was most likely due to the fact that Sauron would assume Frodo would be taken back to Gondor instead of let go. So then again Faramirs actions while different than in the book yield the same result.

[Lush]

a) PJ's Faramir does, eventually, come to his senses, and decide to forfeit his life, even. <P>b) I am pretty sure that this character is bound to grow and develop by the last film ("character arc"-thanks for mentioning that, Kalimac). You can see it in his eyes.<P>c)David Wenham is stunning and looks <I>exactly</I> like I pictured Boromir's baby brother. Yess preciousss. Suddenly, I am not feeling that bad for Eowyn at all.<P>For the above reasons, I do not concur with Sharkey & Co. that Faramir was a "ruined" character. Bruised and stretched, yes. A few bad lines? Oh hell yes. Even <I>I</I> was wincing, and I am a decidedly low-maintenace Tolkien fan. But like a few of you said, I think both the extended DVD version of "TTT" and "The Return of the King" will, hopefully, clear up some of the mess. Could've been better though, could've been a tad better.<p>[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Maikadilwen]

Whatever was wrong with Faramir, it definitely wasn't David Wenham's fault. He did a great job. <BR>But I really thought he was the decent one of the brothers.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Sorry about the technical problems that necessitated the temporary closure of this thread. We hope it is fixed now and are reopening it. Please report any new problems to me. Thanks!

[GreyIstar]

I just came from TORN's board and it was posted that Phillipa Boyens said that in the book Faramir was a static character and they wanted to give Faramir a journey in the film to find himself.<P>That being said I can now invision in the next film Faramir being questioned on why he let the ring pass between his fingers and him saying something like The Ring cannot save Gondor. It would have destroyed us all. Much like Faramir in the book would. And Denethor despising him and telling him he wish that Faramir had died not Boromir.

[Sharkû]

"If details are to be added to an already crowded picture, they should at least fit the world described." Letter 210

[Diamond18]

I can grudgingly understand their wish to have Faramir "less static" and give him room to grow instead of being picture perfect right off the bat.<P>But they went too far, much too far. Did he have to be hurled to the other end of the spectrum? Couldn't he have maybe, I don't know, just been a little more preoccupied with Denethor than in the book? Maybe at Henneth Anuin he could have shown some extra wavering but still stood fast in the end?<P>I'm just saying, if they felt they needed to make him start out as less and grow, there were other, less cruel ways to do it. I personnaly wouldn't have changed him a bit...grow schmo, let the other characters grow! But I could have forgiven a slightly weaker protrayal. They didn't have to bludgeon us with his new weakness.<p>[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

[Kalimac]

GreyIstar, interesting. So my guess was partially right anyway . Actually, come to think of it, Faramir's got a much stronger hand with Denethor the way it's portrayed here. Not just "The Ring cannot help us, or at least, that's what they said and what I felt, so I let them go," but rather "I almost did what you wanted, but I saw *for myself* what the Ring would do to its possessor/realized it was only evil/whatever." Granted, this probably isn't going to cut much ice with Denethor, but it makes Faramir seem a little less of a victim. So it could definitely work in ROTK. But oh, what I would have given to see that wonderful face say "Not if I found it in the highway would I take it..."<P>Diamond, I saw your post after putting this up - you're right, it would have been much better if they'd had him talking about Denethor more (and maybe thrown in a mention of that "your life will be forfeit" clause so we know what he's up against if he DOESN'T take them with him). I once, long ago, went out with a guy whose father was a very, very dominating personality and very Denethor-like in his harshness and his opinions that nothing his son did was ever good enough. It led the guy to do a lot of things to curry favor with him that otherwise he would never have done, AND (which is the point of the personal ramble) he talked about his father CONSTANTLY. If Faramir had mentioned his father twice or three times in the context of bringing the Ring back, we would have known all that we needed to about what he's struggling against and saved his original character a bit.<p>[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[GreyIstar]

Kalimac maybe in the ROTK he will say that having seen what the ring can do first hand. They have plenty of times took lines said somewhere in the book and have the character say them at a different time. Like Boromirs "It is a strange fate we suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing. Such a little thing." That was actually said in the book right before he trys to take the ring from Frodo not on the mountain.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Well, here it is. This is the post that caused the technical shut down of the thread. Don't ask me how, because I don't know! I only know that after my edit, the entire thread messed up. Leave it to me!<P>My post had to be deleted to fix the thread. BW sent it back (thank you!) and suggested I cut and paste it.<P>So here it is again, and hopefully the post will behave a little better this time.<BR>*********************************************<P>I also do not like how PJ changed the character of Faramir. BW has a point, but I think that Sauron's inattention could have been explained in other ways than by taking a central character and misrepresenting him.<P>When Faramir declines to accept the Ring, he says one critical line to Frodo: <I>Not if I found it on the highway would I take it. </I> In my opinion, that sentence is the core of Faramir. And that core has been swept away. Nor do I feel that PJ's interpretation is an improvement even in strictly cinematic terms.<P>In the book, the heart of Faramir is his discussion with Frodo, which is spread out over three chapters. In those chapters, both the hobbit and the Man are represented as mature characters, standing firmly against the Shadow. The book Frodo shows a gentility, a courtesty, maturity, and intelligence which just aren't there in the movie Frodo, who is already dispirited and worn down by the Ring. Indeed, in the book, it is Frodo who guides and reprimands Sam for inadvertently spilling the beans to Faramir about the Ring.<P>There is no way that PJ could have had the dispirited movie Frodo converse with Faramir in the way the book suggests. It would have been totally out of character for him. In a sense, then, PJ's portrayal of Frodo as a victim of the Ring made it inevitable that there would have to be some kind of modification to Faramir, at least in terms of these chapters in TTT.

[GreyIstar]

Faramir will be Faramir of the book. I have seen it. I see it now. I have no doubt in my mind that is where he is headed after seeing the movie for a second time. I saw it tonight and watched him closely and you have to. What he says and what his expression is are quite often two different things. His expression always points to an internal struggle with his duty to his father and something he doesn't quite grasp yet. What he says seems to be what he wants his men to hear. Bind them! You will come to with us to Gondor! But looking at him that isn't what he is feeling. <P>He really is only tempted by the ring once, its obvious because it happens exactly like it did for Aragorn, Boromir, and so on. I think his struggle is more with the will of his father. He is also gravely saddened by Boromirs death and he does seem upset that the Hobbits don't bring any news. What I saw was a Faramir like he was in the book for but an instant when he is questioning Frodo and Sam is getting nervous. Drawn out no doubt much more in the movie. But finally you see the Noble Faramir as he boldly lets Frodo go arriving to the same decision that the Ring is evil and it is what took Boromir to his death. In the book this happens in a shorter time and a less dramatic way. It is Sam telling him what happened to his brother that clinches the decision which in part is what does it in the book.<P>I thought it was quite interesting way of dramatically putting on screen. Definately makes you say Yeah!! When he says "Then it is forfeit!" It could however use some extended scenes because you do have to watch closely to catch everything. I just actually reread quite quickly the entire conversation Frodo and Faramir had and I see where they took for the movie but they also left stuff too choosing to focus on the beginning feel of that conversation, which was very edgy and you didn't quite see where Faramir was leaning, rather than the parts when they are alone away from his men.<P>So having analyzed that all, while I guessed yesterday, I know now that Faramir will be like he was in the book come return of the king.<p>[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: GreyIstar ]

[mollecon]

Though I in general liked this movie, the changing of Faramir was the one thing that bothered me the most - I didn't perceive him as bad though, just a wimp!<P>But we're all biased - we read the books... I really would like to hear how someone who didn't saw this - preferably someone who know next to nothing about the books. And I do think some posters have come up with valid points as to the (possible) reasons for this seemingly rather drastical change of an important character.<P>Guess we'll have to wait for RotK to see...

[Schmendrick]

Well..what can I say? the one single thing that shocked me most in the film, was Faramir. He was one of my favourite characters in the book and had a truly golden heart. I just re-read the Two Towers before the film once again and I was really touched by the way Faramir behaved towards Frodo. He seemed to really understand the weight of his burden and see Frodo's real quality and wisdom. And then seeing him in the film?! I got the strangest feeling. It was like a nightmare, him suddenly behaving exactly like he shouldn't have!I almost started shouting at him in the theatre !<BR>This all leads me to another subject: why had they changed Frodo so much, too? I can't tolerate it. He shouldn't have been this possessed!<BR>I understand that it is necessary to make some changes- after all, you can't tell everything in three hours- but these changes were totally unmotivated in my opinion. <BR>I hope that they'll do something to "improve" Faramir in the last film, but for me it's too late. I just don't understand WHY they had to make these changes!!Somebody please give me a credible answer!!!<BR>p.s.I do not think either that this is the actor's fault.

[greyhavener]

"Never has a character been more unworthy of an action figure." This was my son's assessment of Faramir in the movie.<P>I agree with Child of the Seventh age who wanted to see "Never would I take it, even if I found it on the road." <P>I also wanted to hear him say of Boromir "I am not like him." <P>And to hear Sam say to Faramir. "You have an air about you that reminds me of Gandalf, of wizards." I actually saw a bit of that air in David Wenham had he been given dialogue to match it.<P>I think Peter Jackson has failed to believe in his audience. He has substituted conflict and action for mutually respectful dialogue to move the story along. <P>Along with Faramir, Treebeard and Theoden were weakened in how they were convinced to go to war. The integrity each of these characters display in conversations with members of the Fellowship in the book is diminished by the changes in the movie. Unlike Faramir, Treebeard and Theoden were not utterly changed in their personalities.<P>Jackson did a good job in "Fellowship" using words to move along the action, reveal character and impart information. He somewhat abandoned words for action in "Two Towers." That said, I still enjoyed the movie and could accept the changes except for Faramir.

[greyhavener]

"Never has a character been so unworthy of an action figure." This was son's assessment of Faramir. He hasn't read the books.<P>Up until now P.J. has been able to make changes that did not appreciably alter the integrity of the story or it's characters. <BR>Faramir is an utter departure.<P>I agree with Child of the 7th age who wanted to hear Faramir say "Not if I found it on the road would I take it." I also wanted to hear Sam say to Faramir, "There is an air about you that reminds me of Gandalf, of wizards." I felt David Wenham possessed the air had he been been given the dialog.<P>It seems to me that Peter Jackson did not believe in his audience enough to allow the story to be moved along with mutually respectful conversation rather than conflict and action. Not only Faramir's, but Treebeard's and Theoden's characters are weakened in the way that they are convinced to go to war in the movies. They both, along with Faramir display incredible integrity in the books as they engage in amazing, life-changing dialogue with members of the Fellowship. Words move can characters to action, provide information, and reveal personality. P.J. managed to use them well in the first movie but somewhat abandoned them for something more sensational in the second.

[greyhavener]

I've tried repeatedly to delete one post and leave the other but can't do it. Forgive the redundancy.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I thought he was off, but not that far off. He could have been improved by speaking about Boromir and Denethor more (extended edition). Remember that Osgiliath was under attack. Faramir hadn't made his decision yet, obvious choice to bring Frodo and Sam along with him. No, it didn't happen in the book but it's a slight adaptation.<P>He let Frodo go in the end, he forfeited his life. Plus, he drove away that winged wraith so the audience already knows he's a hero in the making.<P>Think back to last year. One word: Galadriel. Extended edition? It's going to work. I am confident.

[GreyIstar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I thought he was off, but not that far off. He could have been improved by speaking about Boromir and Denethor more (extended edition). Remember that Osgiliath was under attack. Faramir hadn't made his decision yet, obvious choice to bring Frodo and Sam along with him. No, it didn't happen in the book but it's a slight adaptation.<BR>He let Frodo go in the end, he forfeited his life. Plus, he drove away that winged wraith so the audience already knows he's a hero in the making.<P>Think back to last year. One word: Galadriel. Extended edition? It's going to work. I am confident.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I concur but we are in the minority here. In the book he does say he must decide if is take the Hobbits back to Gondor or face a forfeit of his life. In the movie he seems to be still deciding when they come and say Osgiliath is being sieged so he is kinda forced to. I agree the fact that he would be killed came if he let them go came too late in the scene. It needed to be earlier.(Extended)

[Iarwain]

I would like to say that in my mind, Faramir's change of character was one of the lesser evils of the movie. I feel that his character, though his role was drastically changed, remained basically the same in the movie, and perhaps the change was more in the curcumstances which he faced than his portrayl. <P>GreyIstar, I would like to know where Faramir speaks about forfeiting his life (I must have missed that), because that casts a completely different image on him for me.

[GreyIstar]

He said that in the book.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

When I attempted to delete one of a double post, both disappeared. I'm sorry - I retrieved the contents but no longer had the name of the contributor. Here is what the post said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The only other reason I can think that P.J. would change Faramir so much is that he thought it would steal some of Aragorn's thunder if he portrayed yet another Man who could resist the temptation of the Ring. <P>I'll be seeing the film again, and I'll have to watch this whole interaction, but my first impression was that Faramir let the Halflings go because he was "scared off" from trying to take the Ring. Or some such thing. Hardly the most noblest of sentiments. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Will you please copy, paste and repost it so that you can take credit for it? Thanks!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I don't mean to nitpick Estelyn but you deleted my first post as well. And I'm in the minority of those who are sticking up for Faramir!<P>I can't remember what I said but I'll keep watching the thread and it might come to me.<P>To whoever asked about the "forfeit my life" line. Wasn't that Faramir's final line in the film? If you're talking about the book and not the film then I apologise.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I do apologize, Eomer - this thread has been plagued by technical problems. It was certainly not my intention to delete your opinion and I hope you can remember and repost what you wrote!

[Cherie Centaur]

I saw TTT last night and I'm still really mad, but GreyIstar's and others' posts have calmed me down some. <P>I personally believe that they ruined Faramir. He was one of the main reasons I watched the movie. Because of the crime PJ did to Faramir I started to see other carnage he made in the movie. FoTR was so much better. <P>I'm now going over the conversation between Frodo and Faramir to review good times. I don't see how they can recover Faramir in the next film without deleting what's already there. <P>Remember they still have to stick in the fight with Shelob and the aftermath of the attack on Isengard. Not to mention Aragorn and Pippen peeking into the palentir. I also have to say that one thing that falters the whole Faramir consulting with Denethor thing is he's on the verge of death through most of the book. <P>There are many things that disgusted me in the movie but that was the worst.<P>(P.S.- This is the passage that I think shows Faramir's true character in TTT:<BR> " 'But fear no more! I would not take this thing if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo.'<BR> 'Neither did the Council,'said Frodo. 'Nor do I. I would have nothing to do with these <BR>matters.'<BR> 'For myself,'said Faramir, 'I would see the White Tree in flower again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens: not a mistress of many slaves, nay, not even a kind mistress of willing slaves. War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Numenor; and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear <BR>the dignity of a man, old and wise.<BR> 'So fear me not! I do not ask you to tell me more. I do not even ask you to tell me <BR>whether I speak nearer the mark. But if you will trust me, it may be that I can advise you in your present quest, whatever that be--yes, and even aid you.' "<BR> There is no way PJ's Faramir could've said that and meant it. Though it isn't the actor's fault. He acted his part well.<p>[ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: Cherie Centaur ]

[mark12_30]

A very eye-opening article on Faramir from TORN:<P><A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1040683523" TARGET=_blank>Faramir</A><P>I would have crumbled in phase 2. I was vehemently against PJ's interpretation of Faramir, but this has given me serious second thoughts.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Helen,<P>I am in a rush to pack, and have no time to respond to this in detail. It is absolutely true that Faramir was highly suspicious when he first met the two hobbits and pressed them hard.<P>It is also true that the conversations between Faramir and Frodo extend over three chapters, and I could quote paragraph after paragraph, showing the exact opposite side of him--his gentleness, courtesy, the similarity that Sam sees to Gandalf. (The Faramir of the movies seems to have little in common with Gandalf!) And there is no question about the central point. When he learns of the Ring from Sam's blunder, Faramir steadfastly refuses to take advantage of his guests in any way. <P>Go back to the book, reread the three chapters, and then decide what you think.<P>Was Frodo such a bad judge of character that he would say this at the parting and be so terribly wrong?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The hobbits bowed low. 'Most gracious host,' said Frodo, 'it as said to me by Elron Halfelven that I should find friendship upon the way, secret and unlooked for. Certainly I looked for no such friendship as you have shown. To have found it turns evil to great good.' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Either Frodo was totally deluding himself, or the Faramir of the movie is diferent than the book!<P>sharon<p>[ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Well, I like the ToRN analysis, it echoes some of my own points in my new "Goody...Goody" topic.<P>Clearly, Frodo and Faramir's interplay in the Books is too complicated and rich to show in a film, in which so much else needs to be shown.<P>However, for understanding where Faramir ends up (noting as ToRN states that the end-result with Faramir in the Book still has to be arrived at, despite his courtesy, feigned or not) is critically derived from this interplay, which can not be duplicated on screen.<P>So, they use a set of events from the book or invented to show both the tough and wise sides of Faramir, as well as dynamics of Gondor's military situation. The intellectual process used in the book is simply enchanting, but impossible to potray.<P>As I said, what we lose is really the rich representations that Faramir's character provides for understanding the nobility of Men as decended from the Atanni.<P>We also have with these Rangers, as with those of the North, not only Dunedain, but in many ways Numenoreans returning to their First-Age roots.<p>[ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

[Cherie Centaur]

Wow, mark12_30! I never thought of it that way! Maybe the reason I'm so mad at the movie is because movie Faramir isn't the Faramir from RoTK. Though what the guy from TORn said nullifies my rant quite a bit. Maybe I should shut up now and stop posting.

[mark12_30]

Well, Cherie, Sharon still has a good point. In the book, Frodo and Faramir part as very good friends, and in the movie, they do not. I agree (now that I've thought about it) with the whole military-style interrogation; but nevertheless, there is a point where Faramir throws in his whole-hearted support behind Frodo, and I do not see that int he movie. One line "then let it be forfeit" or "Then it is forfeit" gives me a hint, but just a hint. <P>Rant, rant....

[GreyIstar]

Id hold off judgement untilt he Extended Edition and even the return of the King where i beleive we will see Faramir's true metal.

[Hawkeye]

Well, he had better be portrayed differently in the extended version and rotk! That was just unbearable to watch! Faramir is one of my 3 ultimate favorite LOTR characters (the other 2 being Aragorn and Legolas), and it was just awful seeing him destroyed like that. He was so different from Boromir in the books, and yet there were still similarities between them. Personally, I was pleased with the way they portrayed Boromir in FOTR. It really helped me to understand him more than i had previously in the books. It helped me see his conflict, and the good that was in him, but couldn't get out. but Faramir didn't even have that opportunity in the movie! David Wenham was perfectly capable of being the true Faramir. He looked just right. Gentle, wise, like Gandalf! (as some people have mentioned previously) But he wasn't given a chance to even try. The only redeeming line he had was the one about his life being forfeit. But they weren't supposed to be in Osgiliath in the first place! Sigh... I'm still going to hope that they'll redeem his character in ROTK. If not, then i feel sorry for Eowyn. The Faramir in the movie is no match for her!

[Elven Mistress]

I have only read a few posts because i have a meager ten minutes left to wander about the site. <P>But when i first saw the movie with my family i was mad that Faramir was portrayed like he was. When the movie was over i got up and started jumping because i was angry. My brother looked at me and i told him. He just shrugged, which made me even madder.<P>My friends and i had been talking about going to see the movie together for a while. My one friend is now reading the books and she was at the part with Faramir. Before i saw the movie with my family we were both excited about Faramir. When i told her what they did she was upset, and it made it even worse when she saw the movie. <P>I don't understand at all, and i'm adament about this - there is no reason - why PJ had to change so greatly such a wonderful character!

[LadyElbereth]

Like most everyone else: I'm disgusted.<BR>PJ ruined him! Ruined him! That guy is NOT Faramir. He was supposed to be the exact opposite of Boromir, he wa supposed to overcome the temptation of the Ring! Argh, Faramir better straighten up his act by ROTK or someone's gonna die *glares at PJ*

[Faye Took]

I thought David did a pretty good job, even though he wasn't really the Faramir type.I still thought he did well, but I noticed that they made him meaner than he was in the book.

[Cherie Centaur]

My family and I were Christmas shopping and my brother's first place to get gifts was at the LOTR rack. I imediately told him not to get me the Faramir action figuare. That's how mad I was (plus those figuares make even Legolas ugly). But I'm over that now. After reading the article on TORN, I've now understood many things, including why the guys in class gawked at me when I told them that Faramir was my favorite character(they haven't read RotK). I thank all for your wisdom.<P>Cherie<P>(P.S.-- I'm gonna change my Sign. )

[Iarwain]

Sorry, GreyIstar, you must not have understood my question. I meant where in the book does he say that. Not retorically. For real. I'd like to know where Faramir says that his life is forfeit. I'm not being sarcastic.

[TolkienGurl]

Does this sound familiar?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>'So it seems,' said Faramir, slowly and very softly, with a strange smile. 'So that is the answer to all the riddles! The One Ring that was thought to have perished from the world... And here in the wild I have you: two halflings, and a host of men at my call, and the Ring of Rings. A pretty stroke of fortune! A chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality! Ha!' He stood up, very tall and stern, his grey eyes glinting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It should. That's what Faramir says in "The Window on the West" and he also says this (or something like it) in the movie. The only main difference between Movie-Faramir and Book-Faramir is that Movie-Faramir took the temptation of the Ring much further than Book-Faramir did. In the afore mentioned chapter, Faramir held to his vow <I>Not if I found it on the highway would I take it</I>. Movie-Faramir had no chance to make such a vow as there was no time for he, Frodo, and Sam to discuss things in depth like they did in the book. <P>Movie-Faramir takes much longer to overcome the Ring's Power, while Book-Faramir almost right away denies the temptation, and even tells Sam that it was safe, and even good, for him to blurt out the identity of Isildur's Bane.<P>So, you ask, what's the point?<P>My point is that Movie-Faramir and Book-Faramir aren't so drastically different as I originally thought, and the differences that do exist are because of a lack of time and somewhat poor judgement. The result? Loss of some very important discussions vital to the development of Faramir's character.<P>If only they weren't taken to Osgiliath! <p>[ December 27, 2002: Message edited by: TolkienGurl ]

[Lush]

Faramir definitely grows on you after you see the movie a second time (then again, this is the opinion of a heterosexual female happy just to <I>stare</I> at David Wenham). <P>Thank you for the link, Helen.<P>I concur with TolkienGurl: what ultimately throws <I>any</I> reader off is the whole Osgiliath bit, it comes off somewhat forced, (if PJ really wanted to show off a flying Nazgul yet again, he could have him pop up almost anywhere along the road, why do this detour?) and the initial reaction is to blame the "stupidity" of Faramir's character. When Sam said "by rights we shouldn't even be here,"-one fights the urge to scream, "NO $&%# SAM!!!"

[Eruwen]

Whoa this guy had me on the edge of my seat the whole time. At first, I thought he was going to end up as just a meaner version of Boromir. But man was I wrong. After Sam yelled at Faramir about his brother, I saw the look in Faramir's eyes I was hoping for. I loved him in the books, and I still do in the movie. He has the best look for an actor to play this guy. The acting skills were amazing. I couldn't believe it. So cool.

[doug*platypus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The hobbits bowed low. 'Most gracious host,' said Frodo, 'it was said to me by Elrond Halfelven that I should find friendship upon the way, secret and unlooked for. Certainly I looked for no such friendship as you have shown. To have found it turns evil to great good.' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks, 7Child, for providing the quote - saves me looking it up (at least after correcting your typos!). This for me is the essence of the Two Towers Faramir. When Frodo meets him, I see Faramir as not so much a character in his own right, but as a part of Frodo's journey. He fulfils the exact same as Galadriel in the first movie, harbouring the fugitives from danger, allowing the plot to slow down a little, and giving both characters and audience a much needed rest. The entire world is not evil, and friendship may be found where you never thought to look for it. Important themes. That was why cutting Lorien so harshly in the initial cut of FOTR was such a crime, because it removed a lot of the beautiful, peaceful side of Middle-Earth. <P>Same with Frodo's journey in TTT. Thanks to the Butchering of Faramir, the only respite that Frodo and the audience get from danger is the short cooking scene. If the danger never lessens, then the impact of the big dramatic scenes like Shelob are lost. Maybe that's why PJ had to put the Nazgul in, because he lost so much when he Moved Shelob. A movie needs ups and downs, so to me the Butchering of Faramir was much worse for Frodo and the audience than it was for Faramir.<P>And once again, by tinkering with such a great work PJ's version has started to bulge at the seams and unravel, like a polo shirt two sizes too small, revealing the flabby interior of the plot. <P>Faramir: "we're taking the ring to Gondor!" <P>Faramir, later: "no, actually, now we've come all this way, I don't think we will. Goodbye, and sorry to have cost you about a week's journey and not given you any more food. Fare well!"<P>I still hold out hope for the ROTK Faramir, though, I'm sure his daddy issues will make good viewing.

[Alphaelin]

I expressed my opinion of the Character-Formerly-Known-as-Faramir briefly in another forum, but will try to expand on it here. <P>First, David W. did his job as an actor. He said the words he was supposed to and followed the directions he was given. He did his job well, and he should be pleased with his work.<P>PJ & Co. on the other must be slapped and spanked. Dramatic license does not excuse such a complete change in a major character.<P>I was okay until Faramir decided to take the hobbits to Osgiliath. No. Wrong. The essence of Faramir is that while he is supposedly the younger and weaker of the brothers, he is in fact the greater of the two. Boromir has physical courage but not enough moral courage to resist the temptation of the Ring. Faramir, in the book anyway, does have both inner strength and physical courage. <P>While there was not enough time to use all three chapters of Frodo's meeting w/Faramir, it would be quite possible to put together one or two scenes of interrogation dialogue between them by using excerpts, and giving one or more of his men new lines referring to the expected wrath of Denethor and the danger facing Gondor. <P>As I said before in the other forum, I suspect that this character is in fact Faramir's evil twin Clive. He has locked Faramir in a cellar somewhere in Minas Tirith, from which Faramir will doubtless escape in ROTK.

[Alphaelin]

Hmmm, I think I should rephrase Faramir as being an important supporting character rather than a major character in the books. The reason is that Tolkien devotes more time to many other characters in the trilogy. <P>But F. is important!

[Arwen Imladris]

I think that he is a good actor, but I don't really like the way that he made him so mean. They did a very good job at finding an actor who looked like Boromir, but they made him too much like Boromir. Other than that, he is O.K.

[Guinevere]

I agree with all those who are disappointed with the portrayal of Faramir. Child of the 7th age (and others) have already expressed what I think as well. <BR> The spoiling of his character really bothers me a lot, since he is one of my favourites in the book, and those chapters with his long conversation with Frodo are some of the most touching and exciting for me. <BR>In the film, Faramir`s character is not only wrong, but not developed at all. <P>There are even several original quotations from the book , but they get a different meaning in the film because they are not complete and/or are taken out of the context.<P>e.g. “Well Frodo, now at last we understand one another” says Faramir in the film, but in the book he continues “If you took this thing on yourself, unwilling, at other`s asking, then you have pity and honour from me.”<BR>And THAT is meant by “understanding”.! In the film it just means that he has found out that Frodo has the One Ring. <P>And this threatening speech of Faramir “So that is the answer to all the riddles (…………….) a chance for Faramir, captain of Gondor, to show his quality” . Also here, the implication in the film is different, since it is ripped out of the context. <BR>In the book Sam had previously said “Now`s a chance to show your quality. (Meaning of course, if he can resist the ring and prove true to his previous word: “Not if I found it on the highway would I take it”) And finally Sam says “You took the chance, Sir, and showed your quality: the very highest.”<BR>Faramir`s reply “…..I HAD NO LURE OR DESIRE TO DO OTHER THAN I HAVE DONE.” shows a world of difference to the film character!!<BR>And I don’t think it`s possible to “amend “ this in the 3rd film.!<P>Here`s another quotation from Tolkien`s letter #210 :<BR>__________________________________________________ _________________________<BR>“I do earnestly hope that in the assignment of actual speeches to the characters they will be represented as I have presented them: in style and sentiment. I should resent perversion of the characters even more than the spoiling of the plot and scenery” <BR>__________________________________________________ _________________________<P>I wish the script writers had read this, before making all those unnecessary changes!

[Nurumaiel]

Before I say my opinion on Faramir, I'll let you all know he has been my second favorite character for nearly seven years now.<P>What did I think of him in the movie? Well, if you want me to be honest, I did not find anything wrong with him. Oh, sure, he WAS changed, but not as drastically as I though he would be after hearing what people said about him.<P>So he took the hobbits to Osgiliath. Did you hear what he said there? He was being loyal to his father. No one gets angry because Sam is loyal to Frodo.<P>But I see that everyone is angry because he was different from the books. Was he THAT much different. In many, MANY ways, he was VERY similar to the Faramir I have grown up liking. I think it all depends on how you look at it. If you look at it from a die-hard fan's point of view, you're bound to hate him. But if you look at him through his own eyes, for one, you can completely understand why he's doing what he is. And guess what? He let them go at the end. He said his life was forfeit for them.<P>Now as for David Wenham... he was pretty good. I was prepared for everyone to get a crush on him, therefore making me dislike the character he plays because he'll have millions of Faramir love stories as we find Legolas ones, but fortunately I haven't heard anyone talking about how cute he is. Good! I'm free to like Faramir just as much as always!<P>I entirely disagree with most of you about Faramir. Changed? Yes. Utterly ruined? In my opinion, definitely not.<P>~Nurumaiel

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It's quite simple. Shelob has been bumped back to Return of the King. Therefore, Frodo and Sam do not have an exciting finish to the movie. It made sense to keep the tension with Faramir going right to the end. It was all about extending the 'Will he or won't he?' question until the end for drama.<P>There wasn't too much different. Faramir in the book questioned the Hobbits when he found them and then, unsatisfied with their answers, took them by force to his stronghold. Faramir in the movie waited until Henneth Annun to question them and then, unsatisfied with their answers, began the journey to a stronghold that happened to be a bit further away.<P>To keep Faramir as the potential Boromir-esque Ring-snatcher (to keep the audience guessing) the changes were necessary. Remember, JRR Tolkien had Shelob lined up for an explosive finale. Peter Jackson had already decided to make the change (which I can understand).<P>In Return of the King we will see the side of Faramir that Sam compared to Gandalf.

[Mattius]

Most of you seem to be missing the main point. The reason why Faramir was changed so much is that he simply could not be portrayed on the screen as he is in the books. Imagine this, his brother goes mad for the Ring attacking Frodo, Galadriel, one of the most wise beings, tells Frodo he has to go to Mordor alone as "one by one it will take them all". It just would be ridiculous to have Faramir, basically a prince, going "Oh so you have the Ring then, don't worry I don't want it." On text it is noble but on screen it is just plain daft.

[HCIsland]

I have to agree with Numenorean. I think the word "butchered" is pretty strong. One has to remember that the movie is also made for folks who have never read the books. Faramir is a complex and learned character that understands, far more then most men, the danger of The Ring. The film makers likely felt it would be more simple to have him tempted more by the ring then in the book and then grow into his awareness of its evil.<P>Another thing it accomplished is to keep the tension up right to the climax of the film. We basically had action on three related fronts. The natural climax at Helm's Deep and Isengard and the Frodo's and Sam's conflict with Faramir. I think they had to ratchet up the tension a bit in order for the movie not to grind to a crawl every time they cut to Ithilien. I know it bugs the purest, but in the end it makes a better film. You've got to take the good (and there is a hell of a lot of it) with the bad.<P>After my first viewing of TTT, stuff like Faramir and Haldir bugged me. The second time far, far less so.<P>H.C.

[Deiagorn]

Yeah, Farimir is my favourite character, I was VERY VERY annoyed the first time caus he doesnt seem as strong willed a Aragorn when he is in the book... David did well acting as him, i just hope he rocks in the 3rd...

[maikafanawen]

I'm sorry, Numenorean, but I for one do not agree with you. I think that what they did to Faramir's character was emabrassing to Tolkien fans. I understand that they needed to make the movie 'interesting' to the non-tolkienite movie-goers but twisting Faramir's character was *not* that solution. His brother Boromir had *allready* shown weakness to the ring (maybe that was why they changed it so much), but Faramir had been obviously stronger than that in the book, making him one of my more favorite characters. I though it was extremely unecessary for them to change his character.<P>I was lost in ire when I saw the movie for the first time on December 17th, my friend convinced herself that it *wasn't* Faramir at all and that Faramir had been killed prior to the movie and some other character was added in his place. We agreed that there were no similarites between Faramir from the book and the so-called Faramir in the movie.<P>I believe however that I may be so focused on that mistake that I am not being open-minded. I would appreciate if someone could point out *some* similarities between the two 'Faramirs'.

[maikafanawen]

I'm sorry, Numenorean, but I for one do not agree with you. I think that what they did to Faramir's character was emabrassing to Tolkien fans. I understand that they needed to make the movie 'interesting' to the non-tolkienite movie-goers but twisting Faramir's character was *not* that solution. His brother Boromir had *allready* shown weakness to the ring (maybe that was why they changed it so much), but Faramir had been obviously stronger than that in the book, making him one of my more favorite characters. I though it was extremely unecessary for them to change his character.<P>I was lost in ire when I saw the movie for the first time on December 17th, my friend convinced herself that it *wasn't* Faramir at all and that Faramir had been killed prior to the movie and some other character was added in his place. We agreed that there were no similarites between Faramir from the book and the so-called Faramir in the movie.<P>I believe however that I may be so focused on that mistake that I am not being open-minded. I would appreciate if someone could point out *some* similarities between the two 'Faramirs'.

[maikafanawen]

Oops, sorry for the double posting. I was working on an old computer.<P>I would like to point out however that even though the character itself was disappointing, David Wenham did a *marvelous* acting job. Bravo!

[maiden of the Shire]

I too came away from The Two Towers feeling a bit confused about the changing of Faramir's character...but the movies are just an interpretation of the book. You may feel it is a bad interpretation, but that's all it is. That being said, I can overlook the changing of Faramir, it works for the movie. They had to move the Shelob stuff to Return of the King since Frodo and Sam don't really have enough to do without it (for a film), and without something threatening Frodo and Sam's journey in the Two Towers their part of the story may have seemed dull on screen especially with Helm's Deep and such being interwoven between their scenes. In a perfect world the film would have been solely made for the fans of the books and therefore Peter would not had to have changed a thing. <P>Fact is, people who have no knowledge of Faramir and know nothing else of Middle Earth save what Peter has given them may not have understood how the entire time during Fellowship they were trying to convey how the ring is so powerful, and (almost) no one can resist it, then all of a sudden here's a man with no will to have the ring whatsoever.<P>Cheers!

[maikafanawen]

You do have a point, maiden of the Shire. The ring was terribly powerful, and Faramir being taken by the ring was understandable. He shouldn't have threatened Frodo though with his "A chance for Faramir to show his quality" bit and "two halfings, and a hundred men at my command" The scriptwriters shouldn't of had him take the ring to Gondor 'on purpose', I guess. It should have gone something like this: When the ranger came in to tell Faramir that Osgiliath was being attacked. Faramir should have said:<P>"I have not yet decided what to do with the ring. You will come to Gondor." <P>When in Gondor and he saw Frodo and Sam's reaction to the ringwraith he should have immediately decided that the ring was alltogether evil and had the two hobbits smuggled safely out of Gondor. Having him say: "Take them to my father, tell him, Faramir sends a mighty gift" wasn't a good call.

[Pipi]

I agree that Faramir is different from how the book describes him, but I have an understanding why. I read an article about Faramir in the movie on theonering.net and it said that somethings change from book to movie, and that Tolkien was only a great writer and not a great film maker. If you want to see the article you have to look for jan 3rd articles on the site.

[Luinalatawen]

I think the actor who plays Faramir has great talent and potential to play this part, but the character Faramir is definitely not what it should be.

[Meela]

perfect in every way

[Nurumaiel]

I am not one of those who is totally devastated by the change in Faramir's character (and he has been my favorite [besides Merry] for many, many years), but I do admit they could have made him a tad bit better.<BR> * ** **<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Faramir should have said:<BR>"I have not yet decided what to do with the ring. You will come to Gondor."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now that is what I would have liked to see. That way they could have had them go to Osgiliath, but make him a little more true to the book as well.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"Take them to my father, tell him, Faramir sends a mighty gift."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Maybe a little un-Faramir, but I do think PJ&co. were trying to introduce the idea that he's trying desperately to please his father (who doesn't care for him too much).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>He shouldn't have threatened Frodo though with his "A chance for Faramir to show his quality" bit and "two halfings, and a hundred men at my command"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I found nothing wrong with what was said there. I quote the book:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"And here in the wild I have you: two halflings, and a host of men at my call, and the Ring of Rings. A pretty stroke of fortune! A chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality!" -Faramir<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The only change here was that afterwards Faramir did <I>not</I> give in to the temptation of the Ring (directly after, not a long time later).<P>I just wanted to post and say that your suggestion for what Faramir <I>should</I> have said was wonderful and came directly from my own mind.

[Mattius]

Well I know it may only go a small way in redeeming his charachter but here goes...<P>Faramir in the film was not 'tempted' by the ring. Allow me to explain. If he was tempted to take it it would be because he dreams of becoming all powerful and using it to his own will. Boromir wanted it to rebuild the glory of Gondor and defeat Sauron (and you can make a certain bet he would be the king then). No, Faramir wanted to give the Ring to his father and not use it himself. I doubt Boromir could have done this

[Arwen Imladris]

There is an article/discussion thing about Faramir's character <A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1040683523" TARGET=_blank>here, </A> and <A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1044845092" TARGET=_blank>here.</A>

[Arwen Imladris]

Today, September 21st, is David Wenham's (Faramir) birthday! David was born on September 21st, 1965 in Sydney, Australia. That makes him 38 years old today! Happy Birthday David!<P>Sorry about double posting!

[LadyElbereth]

oOo, happy b-day David! <BR>You know, I'm stil moody about what PJ did to Faramir (I refuse to watch that part in TTT), but I read those articles that Arwen Imladris so kindly linked us to and I must say, they have some interesting points. I also agree with Mattius, yet, I still like the Faramir in the books better! Well, David is a wonderful actor anyway and I definitely wouldn't want anyone else to play Faramir but him!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

<B>maikafanawen</B>, you asked for some similarities between Book-Faramir and Movie-Faramir. Perhaps you haven't read the whole thread but a few similarities have already been given.<P>Including;<P>1) Faramir captures the Hobbits.<P>2) Faramir subjects Frodo to harsh interrogation<P>3) Faramir threatens the Hobbits with military intimidation.<P>4) After unsatisfactory interrogation, Faramir takes the Hobbits prisoner to a Gondorian stronghold.<P>5) Faramir releases the Hobbits and the Ring, endangering his own life.<P>The only thing that was really missing, in my opinion, was the deep relationship that Frodo had with Faramir.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

That, and wasting an awful lot of screen time by dragging them off to Osgiliath.<BR>But hey...<BR>But these points have certainly lessened the strength of my views, so thank you for that, it was bugging me.

[Neferchoirwen]

I knew I should've gone to this thread a little bit earlier...my terribly looong absence was triggered by hiding from possible Faramir portrayal confrontations, and so I am here, raising my hand so that the "minority" will recognize that I agree with the movie Faramir as much as they understand him.<P>*raises hand*<P>More thoughts to come soon...problem looking for them in another Tolkien emailing group...

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The only change here was that afterwards Faramir did not give in to the temptation of the Ring<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The <I>only</I> change? Sounds like a pretty big one to me .

[Lathriel]

The first thing I remember when I saw Faramir on-screen were his eyes!<BR>Then came the character. I remember that it did bother me that Faramir seemed so tempted by the ring because in the book he shows no sign whatsoever.<BR>I was puzzeling this. Then came the savior, The EE. That made it much more understandible for me. It showed that Faramir was under a tremendous amount of pressure from his father Denethor which in turn made it clear why Faramir so desperatly wanted to bring the ring to Minas Tirith. He wanted to show his father he was worth something.<P>To show his true quality so to say.

[Neferchoirwen]

I agree, <B>Lathriel</B>! <P>His eyes at his close up when discussions about the territory of Ithilien being slowly invaded. That was major stress on him right there!<P>I think that the fact on whether or not he was tempted was blurred, but he never took it himself to bring to his father. I guess he recognized its power, but would not choose to handle it himself.<P>Sorry, I van never get Faramir out of my head!

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The only thing that was really missing, in my opinion, was the deep relationship that Frodo had with Faramir.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> After much consideration and time, I came to the realization that there was still something in the back of my mind that stuck wrong with regards to PJ's version of Faramir, even after the Extended Edition made him more likeable and understandable. That is his connection to Gandalf, the fact that Faramir is a "wizard's pupil" and takes more stock in the opinions and teachings of Mithrandir than in his own misguided father. I think the conflict in Faramir's mind with respect to pleasing and living up to Denethor's expectations would have been enriched by the inclusion of an understanding here such as was included in the book. This, I think, was one of the strongest threads in the Frodo-Faramir connection, the long reverence for the teachings and example of Gandalf. If only there had been a hint of this on Faramir's side, even a mention with a small double take on Frodo's reaction to it, there would have been the necessary depth to Faramir's character that I seem to miss. Without it, he merely seems to be a child striving to please a harsh father, a tragic figure but also a weakened one. And I suppose that is what I truly missed about the movie characterization of Faramir. <P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta

[Macphisto]

Oh, how I love this topic of conversation.

I hated what PJ had done to my precious Faramir when I first saw that movie. And the second time. And then the third time I made myself really watch. And I agree with GreyIstar (I think) who said that his facial expressions don't match the lines. I think that's fantastic, and I really respect David Wenham for it.

For anyone who hasn't seen the Extended Edition of the Two Towers, I think that is a HUGE improvement on movie Faramir. I suppose I would prefer he had remained a nice guy, but wow, everything just makes so much more sense.

Of course, after watching that, all I could say was 'HOW COULD THEY HAVE POSSIBLY TAKEN THAT OUT BUT PUT IN ARAGORN'S FAKE DEATH!?'

I think that was the true evil of The Two Towers movie. The sacrifice of development on the reworked Faramir for Arwen. If they had just taken the time to explain his relationship with Denethor and Boromir... Did Aragorn really have to fall off that cliff? Was that really necessary!?

That's what really ****ed me off. It would have saved me hours of ranting about how they ruined Faramir if they had just put in a few more of those cut scenes, like the one where he's talking about the Haradrim soldier (Sam's train of thought from the book), or seeing Boromir's body, or leading Frodo and Sam to the sewers at the end...

Sacrificed... for Arwen! I can't stand it.

[Theron Bugtussle]

Originally posted by GreyIstar
...it was posted that Phillipa Boyens said that in the book Faramir was a static character and they wanted to give Faramir a journey in the film to find himself. How about a character with the patience, wisdom, and judgment to think and question before he acts? Is that 'static'? Or is this just an expression of the failure of the screenwriters and the director to take Tolkien's subtlety and good "quality of character" invested in Faramir and depict it on the big screen?

Which is easier:

(A) to open up the book Faramir character to the screen audience, showing a leader with strength and command, but the restraint to inquire for wisdom before judging and taking a risk to do good thereby; or

(B) have a character shove a sword in someone's eye? (In reference to the ease of depicting lengthy battle scenes in the movies.)

I think we know what answer PJ and Co went with.

In my opinion, they needed no more characters trying to find themselves. Speaking of characters finding themselves in the movie, Gandalf found himself - "Gung Fu Gandalf" (concerning the Denethor encounter.)

Did Aragorn ever find himself in the movies? I forget...

Oh, and PJ totally lost Saruman--he just disappeared. But that's okay, really. Because at least the elves were able to find themselves...in the Battle of the Hornburg at Helm's Deep.

And anyway, talk about making 'static' characters... Was Denethor more static in the movie or in the book? In the movie, there was less appreciation than in the book of the subtleties of the different competing thoughts and influences that led to his demise. Can anyone say, "Mean old tyrant?" How about Gimli, the romantic warrior poet? Reduced to "comic sidekick" cardboard cutout. You can probably come up with more examples.

Or is this another instance of "modern" inability (lack of ability or lack of appreciation?) to depict "good," and preferring that every character has to have some internal, psychological imbalance? ;)

[Memory of Trees]

Okay, let me do this as calmly as possible. THEY RUINED FARAMIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *panting*

Sorry, I just HAD to get that out of my system. Here's my more detailed opinion.

David Wenham is an excellent actor (handsome, great accent, and a excellent costume designer). He could have made a WONDERFUL Faramir, just like Tokien wrote him to be. This crisis is completely the fault of Peter Jackson.

In the book, Faramir is a sweet, caring person whom I always liked. He treated the hobbits gently, with respect and politness.

Needless to say, he was completely different in the movie. I won't even go there, because all of you saw it too. Horrible, no?

I have a friend who broke down in sobs in the middle of the theater because he was so dissapointed.

By the way, what was the whole thing with Faramir taking the hobbits to Osgiliath? It didn't make sense to me.

[The Only Real Estel]

By the way, what was the whole thing with Faramir taking the hobbits to Osgiliath? It didn't make sense to me.

I'm sure if you feel like reading some posts, you'll find opinions there, but the Faramir topic has been touched on so often I doubt you'll get a lot of response now.