Predictions for Return of the King

[Stephanie]

Hey guys, what do you think Return of the King will be like? I hope it's good, but I will be really disapointed if they don't show the scouring of the shire. What do you guys think the movie will be like?

[GreyIstar]

Better than the other two even though they aren't showing the scouring. You people need to start reading up on the movies more so you don't get so angry when some changes suprise you.

[dunedain_aragorn]

I am sooo looking froward to it, but I really think they are going to combine the battle of Pelannor Fields and the battle of Cormallen.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I fear it will be extremely rushed, with all the extra Two Towers action still left.

[Iarwain]

If you'd really like to know, here's another thread with a bunch of people's thoughts. <P><A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/chi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001487" TARGET=_blank>Looking Ahead to RotK</A> <P>Enjoy!<BR>Iarwain

[Hobbiton_Girl]

I hope they do but I sorta think they will and sort of doubt that they will include the Scouring of the Shire, even though it was one of my favorite chapters. I laughed out loud when I read about the Hobbit deputies telling Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin what they can and can't do when they've just saved Middle Earth! So, yeah, I really hope they include it.<P> Otherwise, I think that the Shelob scene is going be very detailed, along with the Pire of Denethor. I think that the conversation with the Voice of Sauron will either not be included or cut short, and the crowning will be a big part in the movie.

[Pookabunny]

All's good for I am easy to please. HOWEVER, there are some <I>necessities</I> to Lord of the Rings - especially in ROTK.<P>1) The Witchking Scene - with Merry and Eowyn! If they skip that, I'll have to pull another "whua WHAT?!?!?" like I did at the Helm's Deep battle when Haldir felt the wrath of the orcs.<BR>2) Flotsam and Jetsam - if they skip Merry and Pippin smokin phat doobes at Isengard, I'm gonna kick something HARD. And when I saw TTT I was wearing armor plated BOOTS. So something's gonna get hurt.<BR>3) The fields of Pelennor. 'Nuff said. I'm a big PJ supporter, however critical I may be. But if this is messed with, I'll just have to pull all my nails off, chew them, and spit projectiles at stuff.<BR>4) The Wedding<BR>5) Eowyn getting over Aragorn<BR>6) Some kind of redemption in Faramir's character<BR>7) The "Greeter" at the black gate<BR>and finally, the MOST important:<BR>8) THE END. HOW IT <B>SHOULD</B> BE. There's only one way to end it. And I'm not talking about Scouring of the Shire. I can live without Scouring. I don't want to ruin it or spoil this for people who have not read the books, but if you think Frodo's spooky in TTT...<I>wait till the 'end' of ROTK</I>....ooooh boy....

[Weber]

I agree. especielly with merry and eowyn. its definetely a part that they need in RoTK

[Durelin]

No matter what, it will ROCK! End of story. Hey, not everyone has enough time to check on every single bit of news about the LOTR films. Most people have many other things more important to do. The only reason I know about things is because of a friend of mine who checks up on news 24/7! She is crazy, not all of us are. Thankyou very much GreyIstar!

[-Imrahil-]

PJ has GOT to inclue Gandalf lines at the end: (forgive not exactly quoted)<P>And so upon the shores of the sea ends our fellowship here on Middle Earth. I will not say; do not weep, for not all tears are an evil.<P><BR>It makes me cry everytime I read the book and in the movies it would be sooo gooodddd.... I know Ian can pull it off so well.

[Gorwingel]

I am very easy to please, ROTK is going to be wonderful, even though the previous movies have been different than the books. They have set us up for a very good film<P>And for those people who say that it is going to be rushed, Peter Jackson says it is so good that he is letting it go as long as it needs to be (within reason), he says it may be 3 1/2 hours long.

[Beruthiel]

I can't wait to see Faramir and Eowyn fall in love, I thought that was one of the sweetest things in ROTK. They better have that. I'm going to cry so hard at the end, they better do that right!! I wanna see Sam say 'Well, I'm back.' <BR>I also can't wait to see Merry and Eowyn kill the witch king, that is gonna be soooo cool! CAN'T WAIT!

[Faye Took]

Aww Faramir and Eowyn! AHH! Soooo cute! Sorry being weird. It's going to be soo good! I can't wait! I really wanna see Eowyn kick the Witchkings butt!

[Fool-of-a-Took]

I'd like to think that sams' final line "well, I'm back" will be in it. I also wonder if PJ will elaborate on the appendices a bit and tell of Sam becoming the Mayor and all that happened to the surviving members of the fellowship.<BR>Frodo lying naked in Minas Morgul should be a laugh as well!!

[Gorwingel]

Oh, I hope that they don't put the Frodo lying naked part in <BR>I was wondering how they were going to handle some of those scenes, and it will be very intesting to see Sam and Frodo wearing the orcs clothing, I can't wait.

[Greyhame]

ROTK will rule. PJ has already said that TTT differs the most of the three from the book, which means ROTK will follow Tolkien's vision a lot closer, as FOTR did. Good news.<P>In addition, he has promised TWO epic battles (Pelennor Fields/ Minas Tirith and The Morannon) that will eclipse Helm's Deep. Oh, brother.<P>Plus, Ain't It Cool News has quoted PJ as saying that Gollum's performance in TTT is just a teaser for what's to come. Seeing as Gollum was the absolute BEST part of TTT, that makes me squeal like a mirthful pig.<P>The Scouring is definitely out, but The Grey Havens promise to be a five-hanky ordeal. Sad, but hopeful, like the book.<P>Bring it on.

[The Saucepan Man]

No chance, I s'pose of the Woses being in it. <P>I picked up a TTT picture book in the shop the other day just to browse and it described the wildmen in Saruman's army at Helms Deep as Woses. Have they never heard of Dunlendings?

[zacattack]

As long as they have the Crowning,the 2 Battles and the part with Elrond,Frodo etc passing over the sea cause I really wanna see Eladan,Elrohir and Cirdan

[Pipperin]

They better have the palantir and flotsam and jetsam, they were some of my favorite parts in the book!!!!!

[Laialthriel]

Sad to say, but I think the Scouring is out. Which makes me sadder than I can say. Merry and Pippin are the best and even though I understand why they dont, I wish they got more screen time. <P>PJ has a big load to accomplish in RotK, but I truly believe he's going to do his best. He's a good director. I'm very encouraged when I hear him say it will be as long as necessary. Really, how many of us will be arguing if it's 4 hours long? Not me!! <P>What I'm really looking forward to:<P>I'm so stoked for the two battles it's hardly bearable. <BR>Frodo. It's going to be quite sad, and I'm excited yet dreading it at the same time. <BR>The witchking scene <I>had better be in there!</I> and that's all I have to say about that.<BR>Faramir and Eowyn....yay!! That boy had better redeem himself quickly...<BR>Merry and Pippin. More screen time would be so nice. *hopes and prays*<P>It's going to be a good movie. I know that for sure. Again, PJ has a tough job ahead of him and I send up prayers for him. My plan is to go into the theatre with more of an attitude of thinking it's not going to be exactly like the book, but it's going to be a good movie. If I want the book <BR><I>exactly</I>...I'm going to go read it. But as for <I>seeing</I> it...I'll go and watch an awesome movie. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Bring it on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Couldn't have said it better myself. It's gonna be awesome, guys.<p>[ January 08, 2003: Message edited by: Laialthriel ]

[Fingo]

If they leave the Scouring out, I'll cry. Plain and simple. I will bawl and tear up the theater. And I'll probably kick something. I know that they're suppossed to pull out all the stops on this movie, but if they don't include the Scouring and the death of Saruman and Wormtongue, *shew* I'll be making some calls and possibly some flights to New Zealand. LOL. <BR>I've read thr RotK more times than I can rightly count right now, and the part where Frodo is explaining to Sam that even though some people fight and struggle for something good, they don't always get to enjoy it ALWAYS makes me cry and I HOPE I HOPE I HOPE I HOPE they put that line in there like that. <BR>As it's looking right now, I'll probably cry at RotK. Because these movies have that kind of effect on me. Does anybody know that song I think it's by Saliva that goes "I love you, I hate you, I can't live without you!" That about sums up my feelings on the (soon to be) trilogy<P>*~Fingo~*

[Greyhame]

For the last time, the Scouring is OUT.<P>It wasn't even written or filmed.<P>It's not in the movie. STOP hoping that it will be, or you will be disappointed somehow with what promises to be the greatest film of all time.<P>THE SCOURING OF THE SHIRE IS NOT IN RETURN OF THE KING.<P>Does everyone understand now? Please nod if you do.

[Fool-of-a-Took]

Just to concur, the Scouring is definitely out. If you listen to PJ's commentary on the special edition, he explains this during the 'Mirror of Galadriel' scene, where Frodo sees "what may come to pass if you don't destroy the ring".<BR>According to the rumour mill, Saruman is killed there and then at Isengard by Wormtongue, thus destroying all hope of a scouring scene.<BR>I loved the chapter in the book, however I always found it ridiculous that Gandalf let him wander free after the Ents released him.<BR>Why wasn't he imprisoned or killed, after all, Gandalf knew he had allies in the vicinity of the Shire and Bree, and his foresight should have told him he would seek revenge somehow.<BR>I hope PJ includes the Pukel men and the banter between Shagrat and Gorbag.

[Thingol1000]

"6) Some kind of redemption in Faramir's character"<BR>and other "I hope Faramir reddeems himself" like stuff....ENOUGH<BR>Didn't you all watch TTT's and NOTICE that Faramir allowed Frodo and Sam to go?????<BR>That's it folks! You already SAW HIS REDEMPTION! You (and I as well) may not have liked what PJ originally did to his character, but PJ stayed true to the spirit of Tolkein. Hats off to him.<BR>Sorry about the caps, but jeeez people, open your eyes and stop being blinded by "the book" dogma.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

My predictions for RotK:<P>I think PJ and co. are going to up the volume: i.e., focus a lot on the battles and dispense with many of the quieter moments, at least as far as the non-Ringbearers are concerned. This means that the battle of the Pelennor fields is going to be fabulous beyond our wildest dreams, but I predict that things like Flotsam and Jetsam are probably going to get less than five minutes of screen time. I hope the Houses of Healing scenes are kept relatively intact, but wouldn't be surprised if they took up less than ten minutes.<P>I bet that Ghan-buri-ghan, Elladan, Elrohir, Halbarad, Imrahil and possibly even Beregond are not going to be included because they would take time to introduce. The only new character the movie must make time for is Denethor.<P>Galadriel challenged Elrond to help Men instead of sitting idly by in TTT. She sent Haldir to Helm's Deep, so that probably means Rivendell elves are going to show up at some point. I bet they'll appear where Halbarad was supposed to be.<P>As was mentioned on the "Hope for the Dunedain" thread, the Northern Rangers are out. That leaves Arwen to bring Narsil and the standard of the King to Aragorn herself. (Unless Elrond does it.) This will allow PJ to wrap up the Eowyn/Aragorn thing neatly (by having Aragorn's beautiful elf fiancee show up) and will give Eowyn extra incentive to ride off to glory/suicide. I hope Arwen doesn't ride down the Paths of the Dead or take part in the Pelennor battle, though. The only elf I want to see there is Legolas.<P>All side battles (Mirkwood, the dwarfs, etc.) won't be shown. <P>Shelob will definitely be an eye-opener given the high quality of the monsters seen so far, but I think a lot of the walking, running out of water and other toil associated with the Ringbearer's quest are going to be glossed over. Mount Doom will be awesome, though.<P>I don't know what will happen to Faramir. I'm afraid his romance with Eowyn will be downplayed. PJ spent so much time building up the Aragorn/Arwen thing he might not have room for another romance. (Though if he does that, he'll deserve to have book fangirls claw his eyes out!) Faramir may actually have more of a role in the movie than the book. Or at least I can hope. (After all, all he does in the third book is get shot, spend a lot of time unconscious and then make awkward passes at Eowyn, bless the man!) He can be Pippin's guide (instead of Beregond), take over the City once Denethor's dead (as I predict Imrahil's out) and maybe get some proper battle scenes in before he gets shot.<P>I hope the wedding isn't too cheesy. Galadriel told Aragorn (in the extended FotR) that they wouldn't meet again, so I guess she isn't going to be there. Does that mean she'll leave Middle Earth in the middle of the movie before the Hevens scene?<P>I wonder if Legolas and Gimli will be in the Havens scene. They kind of disappeared in the book, so I'd be happy to actually see them leave prematurely with Gandalf and the others. Hmm. Come to think of it, Aragorn and Arwen might show up to say goodbye. That way there can be a big emotional farewell between all the members of the Fellowship to cap the movie.<P>I'm looking forward to RotK but I'm going to be so sad when it's over! <P>-Lily

[maikafanawen]

*wipes tears*<P>Ok, Greyhame, I understand. I am very very very upset that they aren't going to have the scouring of the shire. That would make the movie have the happy hobbit-style ending that I hoped for. I don't want to lose hope but ... I've read too much to not believe it. <P>Does anybody know anything about the Paths of the Dead? I wanted them to keep that!!! I hope they don't take it out. <P>I am very nervous at how they do ROTK and what they take out and what they keep. I hope they don't screw it up. I mean, I have faith, but ... It's very nerve-racking!!<P>The battles sound great ... I too hope they have the bit with Merry and Pippin at Isengard. They MUST have Eowyn and Merry vs. the Witchking or *I* will kick something ... HARD! Faramir better shape up for Eowyn, and the Wedding should be spectacular. That's about it I guess.

[HCIsland]

The toughest thing I find to wrap my head around is the fate of Saruman without the scouring of the Shire. They'll have to finish him off somehow, but I'm not sure how. I hope it doesn't differ too much from what's in the book.<P>As for Flotsam and Jetsam, all we need is the image of Merry and Pippin sitting by the gates smoken and giving that "what?..." look to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas as they approach. Most of the rest of that chapter is them telling us what happened, which we've already seen.<P>H.C.<p>[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[Kalimac]

Lily, that all makes a lot of sense. I'm hoping they don't change the Faramir/Denethor thing THAT much, though - I don't mean that Faramir can't have a more active role, but that he has to fall sick before Denethor kills himself. Otherwise you lose Pippin's implicit rescue of him, which is rather an important thing for both of them. The scene isn't nearly as frightening with Denethor threatening to immolate just himself.

[the real findorfin]

I presume that nothing to do with Minas Morgul is in (or was that supposed to be in TTT?) because it wasn't even on Faramir's map!

[HCIsland]

I would suspect that Frodo and Sam will get a glimps of the gates early in the film, though I think that would be about it.<P>I also suspect a playing with Middle Earth geography by having the Paths of the Dead lead out from Helm's Deep rather then Dunharrow. I think that's one of the reason's Eowyn and the citizens of Edoras are at Helm's Deep. They combined Helm's Deep and Dunharrow into one place. Isn't there also a line in the film where Aragorn asks Theoden if there is any other path out of Helm's Deep and Theoden says something about there is, but it would be no better? Could this be an early reference to the Paths of the Dead.<P>H.C.<p>[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> After all, all he does in the third book is get shot, spend a lot of time unconscious and then make awkward passes at Eowyn, bless the man! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <P>Lily, what a great summary of Faramir's role in the third book. <P>I think you've just about summed it up. It seems to make sense that Faramir will replace Imrahil, although I agree, Kalimac, that they ought to have him fall ill and with Denethor when he torches himself. <P>Shelob, Aragorn and the Palantir, Eowyn & Merry v the Witch King and the Siege of Gondor/Battle of Pelennor Fields are surely dead certs, as of course is Mount Doom.<P>I hope they have the Pippin and the Palantir and the Paths of the Dead (that will appeal to Jackson), and also the Battle before the Black Gate (although Pippin has already seemingly been crushed once already). And surely they will have Eowyn and Faramir, otherwise it will be a bit unfair on poor Eowyn. Mind you, if Faramir takes charge of Minis Tirith after his father's death, how will he find time to fall in love with her?<P>Almost definately out are Halbarad and the Rangers, Ghan-buri-Gahn and the Woses, Elornd's sons and Beregond.<P>Clearly, much of the journey through Mordor will be omitted (how much more can Frodo succumb to the Ring after TTT?). I will be interested to see how RotK deals with Frodo demanding the Ring back off Frodo (if, indeed Sam takes the Ring), given that Frodo has already tried to kill him once, in TTT.<P>I too would have liked to see the Scouring of the Shire in, but alas it loooks pretty certain not to be. I have read elsewhere that Saruman gets killed by Wormtongue at Orthanc. Apparently, they have filmed 5 different death scenes.<P>But, it will no doubt be great and I await with baited breath.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Greetings, Kalimac! You're right, Faramir has to get shot in time to push Denethor over the edge, so he probably won't be up and around in time to take over the city. My guess is they'll ignore the power vacuum in the movie because I really don't think Imrahil is going to show up. ...Or maybe Gandalf or Aragorn will just take over while Faramir's ill.<P>I found a link to the cast list on another thread and already one of my predictions is wrong. Ghan-buri-ghan *will* make an appearance in RotK. The list wasn't complete, but there wasn't any mention of Beregond or the others. Maybe Pippin will have to hold the torches at bay by himself. It's a shame -- I really liked Beregond. (But I am excited if it means I get to see more Faramir!)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The scene isn't nearly as frightening with Denethor threatening to immolate just himself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That made me laugh! I think most people would encourage him, poor man!<P>HCIsland, I bet you're right about the Paths of the Dead. I didn't think of the foreshadowing at Helm's Deep, but it makes perfect sense. Do you think Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas will skip Isengard, then? It would be odd for them to ride out of Helm's Deep to Isengard and then ride back. Yay, maybe we'll get to see Legolas and Gimli doing cave-appreciation!<P>As for Saruman's fate, someone mentioned it on the RotK spoilers thread, so you can go there to find out. I stopped reading that thread after I found out because I realized I don't want to know exactly what's going to happen until I see the movie. Speculation is fine, but I want a little bit of surprise waiting for me! That's one good (?) side-effect of the much-debated changes in the movie: I never knew exactly how things were going to happen. The Harry Potter movies generated a teeny bit of boredom by being so close to the books -- maybe outrage isn't so bad after all. <P>-Lily

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Greetings, Saucepan Man! (Is it ok if I leave off the "The"?) Maybe I should have said "All he does in the third book is *fight with dad*, get shot, spend a lot of time unconscious..." On the Merry/Pippin spoilers thread someone quoted (I think Philippa?) as saying that the theme of RotK is "fathers and sons" and I can't really think of any other father/son combo except the Ruling Stewards. (I guess Merry's line to Theoden "As a father you shall be to me" might count.) That makes me hopeful Faramir will do more in the movie than I've given him credit for in the book. More (conscious!) screen time for Faramir means more chance for moviegoers to see the gentle heart I fell in love with when I was twelve. *hopes desperately*<P>-Lily

[The Saucepan Man]

Of course I don't mind if you leave off my "The", Lily. I'm not one to stand on ceremony.<P>On the "fathers and sons" theme, perhaps Frodo will turn out to be Sauron's long lost son! <P>I actually didn't mind Faramir too much in TTT. Granted, he wasn't quite as ready to let Frodo and Sam carry on their Quest as he was in the book, but he did let them go all the same in the end, despite the fact that his life would be forfeit (this sets it up nicely for the interaction with Denethor in RotK). And I hold with those who make the point that the tension had to be kept going to the same point as the other two threads of the tale. With Shelob bumped to the next film, the scenes in Osgiliath and Frodo being confronted by the Nazgul achieved that. But I did miss the great dialogue between Faramir, Frodo and Sam at Henneth Annun, which I found a bit dull when I first read the book (age 10), but have grown to love since.<P>I am surprised (but pleased) that Ghan-buri-ghan will be in. I like this chapter in the book very much, but would have thought that it was one of the parts that could quite easily be left out without affecting the basic story too much.

[HCIsland]

Here's a prediction that may bug you if PJ does it. I'll leave some spoiler space for those that haven't read RotK, though this is a complete guess on my part.<P>S<P><BR>P<P><BR>O<P><BR>I<P><BR>L<P><BR>E<P><BR>R<P>Smeagol jumps.<P>H.C.<p>[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[Lalaith]

I really hope they keep the Houses of Healing scene, and give it proper attention. That is one of my favourite chapters in ROtK, and one of Aragorn's greatest moments.

[doug*platypus]

The more I think about TTT, the more I think that ROTK will both enrage and sicken me.<P>But I will see it anyway, and probably love it the first few times. And if I manage to spot myself in the final battle scene, all will be forgiven.

[Lalaith]

Really? Were you an extra? That's SO exciting...

[Lily Bracegirdle]

The more I think about it, the more I become convinced that Faramir will play a bigger role in the movie than he did in the book. If he was changed in order to have some "story-arc" that means there has to be some story devoted to him. Anyway, who else will represent the noble side of Gondor?<P>I wonder: who will rescue him on the battlefield if there are no Swan Knights? I hope it's Gandalf and not Eowyn.<P>HCIsland, your idea is intriguing. Smeagol winning out over Gollum in the end would make a very poignant finish to his tale of woe. With Frodo as far gone as he probably will be by that point, it'll reassure the audience that he too can overcome the Ring's influence.<P>Oh, I just had a horrible mental image of Smeagol's death scene playing out like Anakin Skywalker's in that other Return of the Something movie:<P>Smeagol: Luke -- I mean Frodo -- tell your gardener... you were right about me... *cough* *expire*<P>Frodo: Father!<P>Oh, no, wait. The lava would make that impossible. <P>I think the field of Cormallen is going to get absorbed into the Wedding Scene, but I still hope to hear one of my favorite lines there:<P>"O great glory and splendour! All my wishes have come true!" <P>-Lily

[Melody110]

I don't know if anyone has been over to tORN lately, but if you take a look at the calender pics you begin to get a few idea's about some of the things PJ has planned out. <BR>Oh yeah, For one the Frodo naked in Minas Morgal scene is in, but all you see I think is Frodo from the waist up, they don't gratutious nakedness, it's just not Tolkien I knwo this as I have seen pics of Frodo in Orc's clothing, and I disagree with a lot of ppls views, I think that there will been given a large amount of screen time to Frodo's journey, because this is the main crux of the story, so far we have seen Frodo becoming mildly paranoid and less than sane but no more...<BR>Faramir...hmmm, character arc will be bigger, we know what happens to Saruman so thats pretty clear. NO scouring of the shire...early reports I read ages ago said that one of the final scenes shot included the journey to the West, Frodo was there, Gandalf and Galadriel were all confirmed.<BR>I don't think Gollum will jump.<BR>The battles will be mind blowing, but I want to ask one thing...<P>Please make it a good one PJ! we'll all sit through the 8 hr long extended edition if need be, but please please please make it good!

[Carrûn]

My prediction is that it will be better than TTT, not as good as it might be, but still a satisfactory representation of Tolkien's book onscreen.<P>That said, if Eru could here me I would ask for the Rangers to be in, even if they speak no lines. Even elves who follow Aragorn. Just please please please no Arwen bringing Aragorn the sword and riding with him on the Paths of the Dead, etc. I liked Liv Tyler's portrayal of her character in TTT and I hope it stays the same in ROTK.

[Alaggaeriel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm very encouraged when I hear him say it will be as long as necessary. Really, how many of us will be arguing if it's 4 hours long? Not me!! <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If they make it 4 hours long I am so hoping for an intermission for bathroom breaks! I almost went into kidney failure during TTT!

[doug*platypus]

Oh, man, the Gollum jumping thing is starting to worry me a little, now. Damn you guys! To tell the truth, I always thought the book version was a little unlikely - he capers too close to the edge and slips? Come on, that's not very convincing, really. Maybe the filmmakers have come up with a more plausible (and probably cheesy) way for Gollum to perish. Even an earthquake would have been better, I think.<P>Are there any changes that could make you guys walk out of the theatre in disgust? I'm guessing probably not, but I'd be interested to hear about your worst case scenarios.

[Liriodendron]

Hmmmm, the "Smeagol jumping" idea is intriguing! Would he jump because he knew the ring was evil, and hated what it has done to him? Or maybe, he has "feelings" for Frodo/Master, and sees the horrible number the ring has done on his only "friend", and jumps out of love???? Smeagol, the sad hero, instead of Gollum, the accidental hero??? I could go with that!

[HCIsland]

I just think it will be too tempting for PJ to redeem Gollum a bit at the end, and I can't really say a disappove. With all the rotten things he does (man, he kills his best bud while the Ring is still wet from coming out of the water) there's still a part of me that feels for him.<P>I just think PJ will have Smeagol take control right at the end, and have that one moment of clearity where he sees what he is. To mention nothing of the fact the Eye of Sauron would be solidly trained on him. If done right, it can make a beautiful climax.<P>H.C.

[The Saucepan Man]

NO! Surely it cannot be. If Frodo can't throw the Ring in (assuming that this is how it is portrayed in the film), how on earth can it be believable that Gollum will be able to? The whole point is that, as Gandalf predicts, Gollum does have his part to play, but he does so unwittingly.<P>And anyway, wouldn't Gollum just throw the Ring in, rather than jump in, if he felt that way inclined. OK, so he might of been destroyed along with the Ring anyway, but he wasn't necessarily to know that.

[Liriodendron]

Hmmm, that certainly makes sense Saucepan, I guess we are back to falling in. Oh boy! I just can't wait! Sam yelling "FRODO!", Gollum yelling "PRECIOUS!", I wonder if it will be "slo mo"?

[Aratlithiel]

Although I got my rearend burned for being optimistic about TTT, I have not yet learned my lesson and believe that at least the Mount Doom scene will remain true. The only reason I think this is because the dialogue about the Ring being treacherous was left in and since PJ sliced out everything else that I thought was pretty relevent, I have to believe that he left this particular tidbit in for a reason. (Certainly don't want to waste valuable screen time on the whole reason for the movie when there's a one-chapter battle scene you can stretch out over 3 hours.) Do I sound bitter? I don't sound bitter, do I?<P>Besides, he's already turned Frodo into a total wimp/victim - it will be very believable to the general non-reading public that he can't do the final toss.

[doug*platypus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I just think it will be too tempting for PJ to redeem Gollum a bit at the end, and I can't really say a disappove. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> man, he kills his best bud while the Ring is still wet from coming out of the water <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Quite right, he does. The wages of sin is death. The book is chock full of just desserts to people like Saruman, Isildur, Sméagol, Wormtongue. There isn't a single bad guy that goes unpunished, I don't think. If the Petester makes Sméagol consciously helpful at the end, it will be yet another lighthearted change without regard to the bigger picture. I'm getting more and more pessimistic about this scene now, since the book version doesn't seem very Hollywood. Maybe Sam will get fired up and shove Gollum in. Or they'll do the old cliché where the baddie falls and the goodie tries to save them, only to have them slip away.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Certainly don't want to waste valuable screen time on the whole reason for the movie when there's a one-chapter battle scene you can stretch out over 3 hours. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oooh - scathing! Meow! Hiss! Totally deserved, though. Same with the new Star Wars movies, the editors of FOTR and probably TTT sacrificed important plot and character development for the more expensive battle and special effects/costume scenes. Thanks to you, Aratlithiel, I now have a mental image of PJ crouched over a can of film with the label "Helm's Deep" saying "It's mine! My own... my love... my... precioussss!"

[HCIsland]

Minor prediction.<P>In the book, when Merry stabs the Nazgul, his sword "unknits" (I believe that is the word that was used) the wraith because it was an ancient sword that he picked up in the Barrow Downs.<P>Of course, the Barrow Downs is out of the film. Instead he got an elven dagger in the special edition of the Fellowship, when he only got a belt in the book. It seems the elven dagger will replace the Barrow Downs sword in RoTK.<P>H.C.

[InklingElf]

Well for me, I think the movie will have double the anticipation than TT considering that it's the third and last movie...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Hmmm, that certainly makes sense Saucepan, I guess we are back to falling in. Oh boy! I just can't wait! Sam yelling "FRODO!", Gollum yelling "PRECIOUS!", I wonder if it will be "slo mo"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ieeey I hope it won't be that awkward, if you know what I mean I

[HCIsland]

Funny, I was kinda bored on the weekend and started going through the stuff that is on the second disk of the theatrical FoTR DVD once again. Didn't realize how many shots from the trailers and the Two Towers preview may actually be in RoTK.<P>Teaser One: <BR>There is a massive shot of marching orcs in daylight bearing the red eye of Sauron. This is obviouly for RoTK. Likely going to the Planes of Pelennor.<P>There is a shot of Merry kneeling before Theoden at Edoras.<P>Final Trailer:<BR>There is a shot of orcs on a ridge under gloomy skies with massive troops on the planes below. There are fires and looks like a battle field. Again, prehaps Pelennor Fields or outside of the Black Gates. I didn't notice any buildings in the shot.<P>Two Towers Preview:<BR>Daytime establishing shot of Helm's Deep which is obviously after the battle because of the gaping breach in the Deeping Well wall. It seems for sure that we return to Helm's Deep at least briefly.<P>H.C.

[Ainaserkewen]

Hey, I wonder if they're going to exibit some of Frodo's flesh in the scene where Sam finds him in the tower completely naked.<BR>If so, there's going to be some excitement from the Elijah fans. Looking forward...

[HCIsland]

I strongly suspect we will not be seeing a naked Frodo. I also suspect that them dressing as Orcs and marching with them won't be there either. In the book, regular Orcs come in all shapes and sizes, some being fairly small, so it works. In the movie, all the Orcs shown have been much bigger then Hobbits. I can't see how they can convincingly pull this off.<P>As well, although it works fine in the books, since then there has simply been too many movies that have pulled this trick (most notably The Wizard of Oz) and it's gotten pretty cliche. I think it will come across as too cheezy.<P>I think the elven cloaks are going to be their main source of staying under cover, hence why they had to establish them so bluntly in the scene where Sam falls over the ridge in front of the Black Gates in TTT.<P>H.C.

[cannedpoatoe]

I doubt they'l even do the whole naked Frodo thing. As for the orcs thats kinda hard to tell. I think they'll probably leave out the part with Sam and Frodo dressing up as them and find some other way to blend things in.

[Magician of Nathar]

I would love it if PJ would redeem Gollum at the end. It will be very heart wretching if he sees at the end and jumped into Mount. Doom himself. With all due respect to Tolkien, i still think that way it will be more of an epic ending with more impact on the audience(especially with big screen movie.) And I am perfectly OK with cutting of Scourning of Shire. I think it's rather pointless plot wise, and I have little love fore hobbits.

[HCIsland]

I'm not sure I would count it as pointless. It cleaned up the Saruman loose end and it really showed how much different the Hobbits were from when they left (especially Merry and Pippin), and that victory doesn't come without a price. It's wonderful in a book format (especially a large book). If there was ever a LoTR TV series (man am I dreaming), it would make a great next to last episode, but in a movie, it would be distracting.<P>As for Gollum redeaming himself, the point was made that if Frodo couldn't destroy the ring, Gollum sure as hell can't make that decision consciously. I don't know. It's best to just watch and see what happens and how well it works.<P>H.C.

[Tar-Palantir]

I would not call it pointless either. For me it was something I could relate to personally, rather than the huge, all-encompassing battle for Middle-Earth, with all it's inherent noble heroes, sinister villians and intrigue. My life is much simpler and I found it empowering to read of the now wiser Hobbits returning home and claiming what is theirs, liberating and protecting their family and friends. It was just so easy to relate to - poignant I think. <P>I cannot envision how the Hobbits will return to the Shire in the film. It can't be unchanged from when they left, can it? There will have to be some time lapse at the end, because I've seen that Elanor will be in it, and a few years old to boot. December seems quite a ways away, n'est pas?<p>[ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

[Laialthriel]

The Scouring pointless? Never. I mean I can see why they're not putting it in the movie, it would probably disrupt the flow of the whole, epic ending purpose, but I will really really miss it. It was one of favorite parts. I loved how all of the Hobbits got together to fight for their land. Merry and Pippin were at their finest. <P>Elanor is going to be in it? Wow, I didn't know that. That is quite the time lapse. I'm really excited to see Rosie again. Am I the only one that really liked her in FotR? Our Samwise...getting married. *sappy sigh* Okay, I'll stop now. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> December seems quite a ways away, n'est pas? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ohhh yessss....much much too far away. But I am going to miss all of the anticipation for the movies. It's been alot of fun. <P>Laialthriel

[Schmendrick]

I was quite disappointed with TTT and now I'm really sceptical about the ROTK. There are some wonderful parts in that book that they are going to leave out for sure!<BR>I still wonder if the Pippin/Palantír-scene will be in the ROTK or will they just leave it out totally? <BR>I also would very much like to see Pippin in Minas Tirith and especially his discussions with Beregond. But I'm sure they are going to leave them out...and have some more battles or romance instead! <BR>p.s. it's not hard to see that Pippin's my favorite character,is it ? (Besides Frodo, that is...)

[Taure Leafsilver]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Sam gets fired up and pushes Gollum over <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> BWahahahaha! I can see that!<BR>but seriosly I think he'll be knocked into, stagger back, look behind him at the lava and do a twist in mid air as he plummets with a nice burning hisssss and a wince from Sam and Frodo heheh!

[Grimbold]

What are people's thoughts about the Woses?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In the book, regular Orcs come in all shapes and sizes, some being fairly small, so it works. In the movie, all the Orcs shown have been much bigger then Hobbits. I can't see how they can convincingly pull this off. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The larger Orcs would mainly be Uruk-hai of Saruman's command, wouldn't they? The Orcs of the Black Eye would likely be more varied. Thoughts? [Consider the orcs in Moria. They were more goblin-ish and less man-like. Surely Frodo and Sam could pass off for one of them with the right gear.]<p>[ January 30, 2003: Message edited by: Grimbold ]

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> TTT was a good movie. I found it was a movie that catered well to non-reading fans. I heard Mal didn't like it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That was my cousin at the end of a letter to my parents. <P>Anyway, I think that most non-reading fans will be satisfied with RotK, despite how close or how far it is from the books, as long as it isn't a total blow-out. <P>As for readers of the book, we have to understand that screw-ups happen when making movies. I mean, my dad promised not to fall asleep during the almost-three-hour FotR, but did during the whole trip through Moria. He promised the same thing when he offered to go see TTT with me, and yet he fell asleep after seeing the Oliphaunts. So, to make it any longer would be terrible, and so they have to cut some things out. <P>Besides, it's just a movie...right? I think RotK will be better than TTT. It's the movie I've been waiting for since I found out there would be movies. I thought it would be the best. RotK was my favorite of the books. <P>Do you think that if they put Shelob in TTT they might have time for the Scouring in RotK? PJ claimed that if they put Shelob in TTT, there wouldn't be enough for Sam and Frodo to do in RotK.<P>Aylwen<p>[ January 30, 2003: Message edited by: Aylwen Dreamsong ]

[Rimbaud]

The very phrase 'non-reading fan' sends a glacial sensation a-wandering down the nape of my neck.

[Grimbold]

I agree. If you think you're a huge Lord of the Rings fan, you should at least read the book. Besides, the movies are more fun once you've got the background of the book itself behind you. Every moment is so much more exciting--trust me, nonreading fans!

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The larger Orcs would mainly be Uruk-hai of Saruman's command, wouldn't they? The Orcs of the Black Eye would likely be more varied. Thoughts? [Consider the orcs in Moria. They were more goblin-ish and less man-like. Surely Frodo and Sam could pass off for one of them with the right gear.]<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You may be right Grimbold but they never struck me as being anywhere near hobbit sized. I know it's works fine in the book, but I'm not sure how well it would work on film. I just get the feeling that there will be a reasonable amount of time spent with Shelob and Cirith Ungol, but then the trip across Gorgoroth will be fairly quickly dealt with. Just a gut feeling.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think he'll be knocked into, stagger back, look behind him at the lava and do a twist in mid air as he plummets with a nice burning hisssss and a wince from Sam and Frodo heheh! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ouch!!! <P>I would think Frodo's emotional pain (forget the finger for now) would be tremendous here seeing the Ring (and Gollum) plummeting to destruction. I hope this is played well by Elijah. I always pictured Gollum with an oblivious look of pure bliss as he plummets down. All he is aware of is that he finally has the Ring again.<P>H.C.

[Grimbold]

Yes, there's certainly more material to work with involving Shelob and the secret pass. I think your predictions are spot on there, HC. What are your thoughts on the Woses?

[Ithildin]

I'm really looking forward to pellenor and cormallen.. and of course, the grey havens..going to cry my heart out<P>"still round the corner there may wait a new road or a secret gate; and though I oft have passed them by, a day will come at last when I shall take the hidden paths that run west of the moon, east of the sun."

[HCIsland]

Apparently Ghan-buri-Ghan is on the cast list so I guess this indicates that we'll see the Woses. I think it's good that they are there because it means that Minas Tirith is cut off from the north as in the book and the Woses lead the Rohirrim along their secret paths. I'm not sure what I would think if the Woses did more then that.<BR> <BR>Mostly I hope they don't come across as knock-off Hollywood Indians. "Me lead 'um down path now. Ugh!" <P>H.C.

[Fanniemae99]

I think that it is going to be long but rushed, they still have alot of stuff from The Two Towers to put in. I heard they were going to cut out the parts of the Twins and the Rangers. I also heard they were going to cut the journey through the Paths of the Dead and their journey through southern Gondor. I hope not, it's one of the best parts of the book.

[HCIsland]

I'm still hoping (likely vainly) for the Paths of the Dead. Certainly, I think Aragorn is going to cross the mountains and go south, I guess there just won't be dead people. Again, I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.<P>I honestly hope that we don't see a hell of a lot of Aragorn. He crosses the mountains, we know of his plan but we don't know what happens. The story then centers around all four hobbits, they each have major stuff to do. Aragorn can just show up with the calvary.<P>More with the Woses. I really hope their nobility comes through, more then just the nobel savage bit. I mean they've been there a hell of a lot longer then the Rohirrim.<P>H.C.

[Grimbold]

To leave out the Paths of the Dead would really be the largest failure in the making of the movies. That scene is totally essential to the defeat of the Corsairs and Aragorn's arrival with their ships. It would be a shame to miss all that, or even just the Paths part. Gimli will be happy if it's cut, though!

[Darkside]

Why would Peter Jackson leave out the Paths of the Dead?? Isn't he a big horror/ghosty type of director? Think of the scene in the Dead Marshes. I don't think he could resist having Aragorn (with his beloved Arwen, {ick}) leading an army of ghosts to battle. Not that I want that to happen, it just seems like something he would do.<P>I can also see where he would have Smeagol jump and Frodo try to save him. Some long, drawn out scene where we see Frodo dangling over the Crack of Doom, Sam holding onto his feet, and Smeagol hanging from his hands, begging to be dropped in. "It's a far, far better thing we do..." Very silly and very Hollywood.

[gilraën]

I agree about the paths of the dead (in what ever form they are portrayed). Without them it will be harder or impossible to establish Aragorn as the rightful heir to Gondor, remembering that PJ has chosen to make him a, initially albeit, reluctant one.

[HCIsland]

I completely agree on the Paths of the Dead as well, but somewhere, someone seemed to think they weren't going to be there. I sure hope they're wrong.<P>One of my favourite all time movies is Night of the Living Dead (the black and white one) but I hope it wouldn't come across as too zombieish.<P>"More Brains!!!" (That quote would be Return of the Living Dead for all you zombie connoisseurs)<P>Either that or a certain Michael Jackson video. Maybe they'll all start moon walking. (Man, am I dating myself).<BR> <BR>H.C.

[HCIsland]

Couple of other RoTK comments.<P>I'm very much looking forward to Eowyn and the Nazgul, partially because of the reaction this will get from the non-book audience. They'll be convinced this was a modern add on. In many ways, Tolkien was ahead of his time.<P>Also, it has been mentioned that Jackson has left too much of the content of LoTR for the final movie, but I don't think this is true as I did a little page counting.<P>In FoTR, 368 pages of the book was adapted. This includes all of Fellowship minus chapters 6, 7 and 8 of book one (Tom Bombadil) plus chapter 1 of book three (The Departure of Boromir).<P>In TTT, 235 pages of the book was adapted. This is books three and four (normally published as The Two Towers) minus chapters 8, 10 and 11 of book three (Road to Isengard, Saruman and Palantir) and 8, 9 and 10 of book four (Shelob build up and aftermath).<P>That leaves 335 pages left for RoTK which is less then FoTR even after Tom Bombadil was taken out. As well it is only 273 pages to the actual climax of the action. Of the remaining 82 pages (6 chapters) we know a lot will be gone including The Scouring of the Shire. There is some stuff that has to be dealt with, but I think it can be done fairly quickly with the main emphasis being building up to the scene in Grey Havens.<P>H.C.

[Morquesse]

I think Rotk will be impressive, despite the missing scenes, and I am looking forward to it! <BR>Here is a link saying what scenes will be in there. I don't know how reliable this is, but we can hope. <BR><A HREF="http://ringbearer.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=416&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0" TARGET=_blank>RotK Trailer</A><BR>I figured it is about 320 days 'til it comes out?<BR>See ya,<BR>`M

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What are your thoughts on the Woses? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My intial view was that the Woses would be cut, since they are not a vital part of the story. A film audience would not really question why Sauron's forces put no guard on the road, or the Riders of Rohan could simply hack their way through any forces there.<P>But Mr buri-ghan does appear to be on the cast list. This doesn't mean that the Woses will be in the cinema version - they may be saved for the extended version. But, I hope that they are. HC, I share your concerns about how they will be depicted. Let's just hope that they are not denied their nobility.<P>As for the Paths of the Dead, I agree with Darkside. This kind of thing is Jackson's forte. And the link that Morquesse posted suggests that it will be in. I suspect that they may cut the Corsairs of Umbar and simply have the undead army turning up at Pelennor Fields.

[Hirilaelin]

Predictions! Yay! <P>Anyway, I don't think that they will do the Frodo naked scene, might cause some... Er... Problems.... Then again, it might not! If they don't though, the poor teenyboppers will be <B>soooo</B> disappointed! Poor them. <P>~Hirilaelin, Sorceress of the Misted Waters<P>Spoilers are GOOD!

[HCIsland]

But we need the Frodo naked scene. I wanna find out if the theory about big feet holds true. <P>Remember Boogy Nights. <P>H.C.

[Aratlithiel]

HC, thank you for taking the time to figure out the page allotment per movie. I'm feeling a little more optimistic about RotK that I was before. Although, the link that Morquesse posted worries me a little. The TTT trailers showed very little of Frodo and I had worried that the movies might as well - unfortunately, it turned out as I had feared. I've been hoping that RotK will make up for that but the two paltry mentions of Frodo in that one now makes me even more nervous.<P>And HC, I've been a Frodo nut since I was yay-high and believe me when I tell you, we don't need the naked Frodo scene! Maybe if someone a little more buff was playing the part, but I really have no desire to see Elijah's skinny butt magnified on the big screen. Although, I am hoping desperately for really good scenes in the tower (exactly as written, oh please, oh please) and hoping against hope for the orc-run.

[Aratlithiel]

Forgot I had this. Only look if you really want to know!<P><A HREF="http://www.thepalantir.com/comments.php3?id=733" TARGET=_blank>Palantir website RotK Spoilers</A>

[Diamond18]

Morquesse, Aratlithiel, you have just ruined, <I>ruined,</I> my resolution not to get too excited about RotK! Thanks for those spoilers, I just hope hope hope the stuff with Pippin is as good as it sounds. And I was getting a little worried that maybe the romance between Faramir and Éowyn would be dropped, but we actually get to see their wedding?????????<P>Somebody, please shake me and remind me that if I get too excited I'll just be disappointed. Maybe I shuld mosey on over to "The Portrayal of Faramir" to douse myself with some cold water. But seriously, I can't wait!<p>[ February 01, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

[Gorwingel]

Please tell me that all those spoilers are true! . That would be so great, the Army of the Dead, the paths of the Dead, is Peter Jackson actually going to follow the storyline of the book? Well were going to have to see...<BR>Actually I had already heard that they were going to have Arwen and Aragorn's wedding, because on eonline.com they had a special feature on the FOTR. They had sent a reporter who just happened to be there when they were filming the scenes of the wedding, and it told a lot about it. If you went to the website and wanted to see it, you probably still find it.

[Diamond18]

Well, I thought Aragorn and Arwen's wedding was a given, but I didn't think we'd actually get to see Faramir and Éowyn's. Maybe we won't, it's just a spoiler after all. But you never know...

[Gorwingel]

You just have to see these<BR><A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1044081420" TARGET=_blank>TheOneRing.net</A><BR>these are rumors about the preview for the ROTK, you know, remember they attached the 4 minute TTT one to the end of FOTR. Well they are going attach a ROTK one to the end of TTT. Some of these things that they may show are amazing. When I first saw these they blew my socks off! especially the possible ending for the preview.<P>Oh and Diamond18 I know they are probably going to have the wedding of Faramir and Eowyn, but I know for that to happen, Faramir's attitude is going to have to change. <p>[ February 01, 2003: Message edited by: Gorwingel ]

[Diamond18]

I can't wait for the Mount Doom bit. <P>And maybe Faramir will wake up from his coma a new man. <P>Though, in all fairness, his attitude did change at the end of TTT. Illogical as that little scene was, it allows me to look forward to the Faramir/Éowyn romance in RotK. I'm being very hopeful right now. (Please oh please oh please oh pleeeeeeaaaase make it good...)

[Gorwingel]

Faramir's attitude did change a little, but not as much as it could of, but oh, that topic is a whole other thread...<BR>All those scenes for the preview sounded wonderful, I was one of the lucky few who got to see TTT one in the theater, and it was truely one of the most wonderful previews I have ever seen in my life. I dearly hope that the ROTK, is even greater than TTT one.

[Neferchoirwen]

It's bizarre, but the spoilers gave me a closure. I did have doubts that the scouring may not happen: the moviegoer/critic in me would not know what to make of it if it were included. I imagine that a lot of scenes would be shortened, as the account of Gollum and the Hobbits were condensed.<P>...but what I am really restless about is the actual ending. I hope that they keep it that way. Galadriel telling Elrond in movie 2 that "the quest will claim his life" depresses me in anticipating the whole outcome <p>[ February 01, 2003: Message edited by: Neferchoirwen ]

[Gorwingel]

The whole Galadriel "the quest will claim his life" was weird, but it (to me) is not that ridicules, because it does claim his life in a way. The entire journey has hurt him so much that he can no longer live life the way it was before, he has been scared for life. Many people who had not read the book were very confused about that line.

[Iarwain]

My thoughts on that which lies ahead:<P><BR>I hated the FotR movie because I wanted it to be perfect, and it was dissapointing that they changed it so much. Then, after I saw the Extended Edition, it gained my approval. I realized that my expectations were too high for this production of LotR, and gleefully awaited TTT. Then, I saw TTT. I hated it infinitely more than I had hated FotR. I despised it, and wished that it had never been produced and that no one had ever seen it. Perhaps I will allow my expectations to lower even more before RotK, but if the trend continues I will probably weep over the loss. Even if it meets up to very low standards of TTT, I will become tremendously bitter and despise those who say that it is wonderful. I hope for a miracle, but the time for it has passed. Middle-Earth has passed into darkness. To quote Sam from Book VI, ch. 8 : <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> This is worse than Mordor! Much worse in a way. It comes home to you, as they say; because it is home, and you remember it before it was all ruined.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Those are my feelings. None could have written them better.<P>Solemnly,<BR>Iarwain

[balrogman]

Wouldnt it be cool if it showed Frodo, Bilbo, Gandalf, Elrond, etc... arriveing in valinor at the end of the movie? I think that would be awesome and i hope the scouring will be in it *crossing fingers*

[Iarwain]

Sorry for the dissapointment, but Scouring's out for sure. I don't have it straight from PJ's lips or anything, but they still have to squeeze in half of TTT, plus RotK. And, as Saruman is going to be thrown from Orthanc, I don't know who could possibly brew the trouble in the Shire. I believe that if asked, PJ, Philly, and Franny would say that it would have been "too confusing" and they had to do it because of time constraints.<P><BR>Valinor would definately be awesome, though.<P>Sorrowfully,<BR>Iarwain<p>[ February 01, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Aratlithiel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I despised it, and wished that it had never been produced and that no one had ever seen it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ROFL, Iarwain - but can you tell us how you REALLY feel? Actually, I'm rather with you on that and have not been terribly secretive about my thoughts on the subject in various other threads. Unfortunately for me, I am a hopeless optimist and even though I'm sure I'll be horribly disappointed in RotK, I still can't help feeling impatient anticipation. <P>To top it off, I'm also a Stephen King fan and have the rest of the DT series to look forward to this fall as well. I'm beginning to wonder if it would be possible to bribe some unethical doctor to put me in a light coma for awhile and wake me in November!! TTT ext. DVD, DT5, Rotk, DT6...Aaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!! I can't take it!

[Iarwain]

This may, somehow, surprise you, but when I really think about it, that is exactly how I feel. What else might I feel that I didn't tell? I do know myself a great deal better than you know me, so please don't comment on what <I>I</I> think, when you've never held a conversation with me before, much less met me. By the way, what does ROFL mean?<P>Grumpy,<BR>Iarwain

[Schmendrick]

This does not probably belong to this thread, but when I read Iarwain's post, I just had to say something...<BR>I loved the FOTR. Of course they had made some changes and left out many things, but I still found it MAGICAL. Just a while ago I was reading the script (for the FOTR) and I could almost feel the shivers going down my spine, when I read the beginning words of Galadriel ("The world has changed"...etc.). <BR>And then I suddenly felt infinitely sad. Because I had waited TTT so much and I almost hated it. (Or actually - I did hate it the first time I saw it. The second time I found it a little better...)<BR>I still can't quite realize, how they could spoil it like that! Where is the magic? Where is Middle-Earth?<BR>I'm sad, too, Iarwain. I don't know what to think about the ROTK. I try not to expect anything...

[Iarwain]

I love FotR now, but at first I was highly displeased. It is a magical film, and they do a good job with the adaption in most cases. (With the exception of Sam's gift of rope. Rope! how mean!) I suppose I've said all I've got to say.<P>Iarwain

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Iarwain, <P>ROFL means "roll on the floor laughing". It's also sometimes shortened to ROTFL. I'm not Aratlithiel, but I think that post actually meant "you have expressed yourself most explicitly and I pretty much agree with you." I don't think it was meant to offend.<P>Since you originally disliked FotR but liked it more once you saw the extended DVD, isn't it possible you may like the extended TTT? PJ said the extended versions were for the book fans, so I think they will be more what we're hoping for.<P>I too was disappointed in TTT at first, but now (thanks to HCIsland) I understand why some of the movie choices were made. I still don't agree with some of them, but I can be more philosophical about them now than I originally could. <P>More predictions:<P>I really can't see Arwen taking Eowyn's place on the Pelennor fields. PJ would have to be suicidal to do that and I don't think he is. Eowyn WILL kill the Witch King. I'm absolutely certain of it.<P>HCIsland, I've changed my mind about the Paths of the Dead. I don't think they will lead out from Helm's Deep as you suggested. After seeing the movie again, Gamling went to tell the women to take the back way out without arguing too much about it, so I think the Paths will be next to Edoras. That also prevents Aragorn from having to ride back to Helm's Deep after visiting Isengard.<P>Since we see Merry at Edoras offering his sword to Theoden, I guess the muster of Rohan will take place, and take place there. Since Theoden and Aragorn would be there simultaneously (rather than sequentially, as in the book), I predict Eowyn will make her plea to Aragorn in private instead of outside with the stirrup cup where Theoden could hear her.<P>I think Faramir will make his second trip to Osgiliath instead of being wounded immediately on returning. He needs to have the confrontation with his father (unless they're going to do it in flashbacks). In Quickbeam's essay on going to the movie set, Quickbeam had to dress as a soldier of Minas Tirith and pretend he was sad because "the Prince you love is leaving and you don't know if he'll return". That should be Faramir returning to Osgiliath. (BTW, Quickbeam also mentioned Beregond, but I'm not sure if he was saying that Beregond was actually being portrayed. In any case, I still don't think Beregond will exist in the movieverse.)<P>I think Frodo will be dressed. New Line needs the movie to have a PG rating.<P>-Lily<p>[ February 02, 2003: Message edited by: Lily Bracegirdle ]

[Aratlithiel]

Thank you, Lily for your (accurate) explanation of my motivations. Apparently, sarcasm is difficult to translate through the keyboard and I will need to be more careful about my attempts to give Iarwain a pat on the back in the future. (That was sarcastic, Iarwain - just in case you couldn't tell ) I'm going to assume it was a simple misunderstanding and avoid getting p-o'd myself.<P>And Lily, where is this stuff from Quickbeam you refer to? (My name is Aratlithiel and I'm a spoiler-holic.)

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Quickbeam had to dress as a soldier of Minas Tirith <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>LOL, when I first read this I didn't realize that Quickbeam was a poster. I thought you were talking about the character and that we were going to have an Ent posing as a tower guard. I had this visual of him trying to get into the uniform. I guess you meant Pippin here.<P>At first I was trying to avoid spoilers, but I've given that up. Like many of you, when I first saw TTT I was thrown a bit by some of the changes, so now I figure if I try and think ahead to the possible changes I won't be thrown as much.<P>I think TTT had a bit of sophmore jinx to it as well. When I went to see FoTR, I went in with very little expectations and was completely blown away. By the time TTT came out, I was so pumped that even if Tolkien himself was reserected on stage, I would have likely been a bit let down. I'm going to try and go to RoTK a bit more level headed. Man, it's still more then 10 months away!!!<P>H.C.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Hi, Aratlithiel! Glad to be of service. I once totally alienated a friend via email in a big horrible misunderstanding, so I'm sensitive to those kinds of things and want to smooth them over *immediately*, even if it's none of my business. <P>Quickbeam is the pen name of a writer at theOneRing.net who wrote about getting to visit the set of LotR.<P>I've never done links before, so forgive me if this doesn't work:<P><A HREF="http://greenbooks.theonering.net/quickbeam/" TARGET=_blank>http://greenbooks.theonering.net/quickbeam/</A><P>The title of the article is "Where the Stars are Strange". Good reading! The scene where he burst into tears in front of the gate of Minas Tirith reminded me of Sam Gamgee at Cormallen.<P>-Lily

[Iarwain]

Sorry Arathilthiel!! My fault, I see now how that was a sarcastic remark, sorry for lashing out so quickly! Glad it's cleared up!<P>Iarwain

[Aratlithiel]

Thank you once again, Lily. I usually only go on that site for daily news - I'll have to start surfing a little more.<P>(patting Iarwain on the back) Like I said, sarcasm doesn't translate well - I'll try to be more careful.

[Ainaserkewen]

I really really hope they show the scouring of the shire. The ending and all. It would suck, even if they have alot of stuff to squeeze into the third movie, if they just ended it with gollum falling off the cliff. Don't let me down PJ!

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I really really hope they show the scouring of the shire ... Don't let me down PJ! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Prepare to be let down, Ainaserkewen.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

But don't worry, they won't end it with Gollum. There's weddings and parties and the Grey Havens to follow. Just not Sharkey and Worm.<P>-Lily

[HCIsland]

I mentioned in another thread that my wife bought me a "Making of the Trilogy" book which talks about the making of all three movies. I'm not finished yet, but here are a few tidbits I've picked up.<P>The writer talks about seeing the set for The Paths of the Dead and props for Denethor's Funeral Pyre.<P>There's a description of the location for Pelennor Fields.<P>There's a picture and description of Grond, the battling ram used to smash the gates of Minas Tirith.<P>There's an interview with Billy Boyd and Dominic Monaghan where they argue about who looks better in their respective uniforms of Rohan and Gondor.<P>There are more scenes shot in Bag End which will appear in the third movie.<P>That's all that I remember right now. I'll let you know if anything else pops up.<P>H.C.

[Aredhelaran]

Just enjoy the movie. It won't be true to teh book, but at least they have it on movie.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

At tORN there's a news tidbit that the first edit of RotK is *six hours long*! Whew! That would be something to watch! Extended Extended Extended DVD anyone?<P>-Lily

[JenFramp]

There are several characters that I hope they don't leave out..Beregond..I don't know if they'll have him or not..I hope they have the Woses! (The drunedain)..I really hope they have the houses of healing..that's my favorite part..

[Lily Bracegirdle]

OT, HC Island, would you recommend buying the photo book? I'm interested to know if it has many of Viggo's pictures of the cast. I saw a couple of his pics of Sean Bean and Elijah Wood on the DVD and they were very interesting.<P>Ummm, trying to think of something to say on topic... Do you think Ghan buri Ghan will be played by a caucasian? I can see people crying racism either way.<P>For some reason, I'm hoping Gwaihir won't talk in the movie.<P>-Lily

[HCIsland]

I'm sure there are lots of movie companion books out there. The one I've got is called "The Making of a Trilogy" and is full of behind the scenes stuff. It has no pictures that Viggio took and doesn't talk about his photography skills.<P>Latest thing I read that I found interesting is the costume person talking about the evolution of Arwen's character and how that necessitated costume changes. Apparently she was far more of a warrior princess in their original concept but then they toned her down (thank goodness). This may be the source of that "dirty Arwen" picture.<P>One of the make-up people also talks about the make-up for the Paths of the Dead sequence. It really looks like this will be in there. <P>H.C.

[Rynoah, the Overly-Happy]

I don't have many expectations for this movie. I'm a naturally cautious person when it comes to things I admire: I was cautious about TTT, but was still let down; I was cautious about Star Wars Episode I and II; I was <I>extremely</I> cautious about The X-Files: Fight the Future. All I can say is this: if TTT was the farthest-strayer from the books, RotK will be better. That is my only expectation for this movie: that it be better than TTT, both from a reader's view and a non-reader's view.<P>... and I'm looking forward to see the Witchking's and Denethor's demise, despite what any instinct, skepticism or baseball bat to the head can instill in me.

[Diamond18]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Do you think Ghan buri Ghan will be played by a caucasian? I can see people crying racism either way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ghan-buri-Ghan will be played by an actor named <A HREF="http://us.imdb.com/Name?Kaa,+Wi+Kuki" TARGET=_blank>Wi Kuki Kaa</A>. If you use the link you can find more about him. No picture though.

[HCIsland]

I thought I'd drag this back up. It would be good to have one place where we can keep track of what we think will be the changes in RotK. This can combine information from interviews, articles, pictures and just plain guessing. It would also be nice if we could keep this about what we THINK will happen as opposed to what we HOPE will happen. There's plenty of threads for complaining about no Scouring of the Shire, how much you hate Arwen and how there's no way they can repair the damage to Faramir.<P>This is what I've got. I apologize for the length.<P>Scouring of the Shire: No scouring. It ain’t gonna be there. I imagine there will be some kind of hobbit homecoming and I would think they would have to play how different these guys are from when they left so it wouldn’t surprise me if there is some incident in which Sam, Merry and Pippin show who’s boss. Perhaps something involving the Sackville-Bagginses and Bag End?<P>Saruman & Wormtongue: Without the Scouring of the Shire, obviously something different has to be done with Saruman and Wormtongue. It seems at least Saruman’s death will be at Orthanc and it seems likely Wormtongue will bite the big one at the same time. I suspect this will all be fairly early in the film as Saruman’s tale in the war is largely done and it’s time for him to be removed to make room for the big guy.<P>Sauron: Word has it Sauron will take physical form. The question is, will this be early or late in the film? My guess is early. With Saruman’s demise the movie will need a villain front and center. In fact, I would guess that Sauron will take physical form before Saruman is killed which would put it very early in the movie.<P>Arwen: So what will they be having Arwen do through this movie? It seems pretty certain that she will be delivering Andúril to Aragorn early in the film. Will the Dúnedain be there? Personally, I don’t think so. Arwen’s brothers? Maybe, though certainly their roll will be extremely small if they are mentioned by name at all. I think it is very likely Arwen will show up with an entourage of elves, so having them led by Elrond’s sons does seem a possibility at least. I think the real question is what happens to Arwen after this scene? Does she travel with Aragorn through the Paths of the Dead (Please God, no)? Even worse would be her traveling with the Rohirrim. Perhaps she’ll have a little tête-à-tête with Eowyn? Wouldn’t that be awkward?<P>I think we need to get Arwen out of there but still have her in the movie. Here comes my theory. Aragorn tells her he can’t do what he needs to do with her around and she agrees to leave. Taking a few elves with her, she leaves for Lothlórien to talk things over with Grammy. Likely Elrond can show up later and they can hash this all out.<P>The Palantir: Wormtongue throwing the palantir from Orthanc is one of my favourite scenes and I hope it’s kept. Either way I think the whole deal with Pippin and the palantir will be kept. My guess is that the main difference will be that Gandalf will take the palantir with him to Minas Tirith and Aragorn will not look into it and challenge Sauron until after the Battle of Pelennor Fields.<P>Faramir: But without Aragorn challenging Sauron, why would there be a Battle of Pelennor Fields in the first place? You are forgetting the added scenes at Osgiliath at the end of Two Towers. Early in the film Frodo, Sam and Gollum will find themselves before the gates of Minas Morgul and, as in the book, the Witch King will emerge from the gates leading an army. Frodo will correctly guess that they are going to Osgiliath to seize the Ring. Faramir will defend the city for a while but when it is clear that they will not be able to keep the hosts of Mordor from crossing, he will send a scout to Edoras to seek the aid of Rohan. By then Aragorn and company will be at Edoras and will learn that Faramir will be forced to retreat to Minas Tirith to make a final stand there. This spurs the ride of the Rohirrim and Aragorn’s crossing of the Paths of the Dead. Faramir fans should get some battle scenes with him.<P>Frodo & Sam: These should be the ones that carry the film and, thankfully, they have a fair amount to do. With Shelob and Cirith Ungol the majority of action and tension in the first half of the film should be coming from these two, as it should be. After that, I suspect much of the journey across Gorgoroth will be shortened, especially the marching with the orcs, which visually I just can’t see how they can make work. They’ll have to have an encounter with Gollum to remind the audience he is still on their trail and undoubtedly they will see the armies of Mordor gathering to the Black Gates as the land of Mordor itself is emptied. Another of my favourite scenes is when Sam and Frodo throw away their gear and it’s looking like we will get that.<P>Merry: Word has it Merry will be with the armies of the west in front of the Black Gates. I can see this because if they don’t have him go you are effectively taking one of your major characters out of the film for a half hour or so. This leads to the next question.<P>Houses of Healing: Obviously Merry is not going to be hurt bad enough to warrant him staying behind. I guess he and Eowyn are able to shrug off the effect of killing the Witch King. Personally, I think the Houses of Healing will be much down played. I can see them giving Aragorn a scene with Faramir as it will likely echo very nicely with Aragorn’s final scene with Boromir, but I don’t think they’ll do the whole hands of a healer stuff. Aragorn’s skill as a healer just hasn’t really been played upon. Will Arwen be here? It would be tempting as it gives her something to do and it’s a damn sight better than her marching to the Black Gates (which is still a distinct possibility). Personally, if she is going to show up here I hope it is after Aragorn and his armies have left and Eowyn has already met Faramir. Eowyn and Arwen can then have a little girl talk and diss Aragorn. Arwen: Do you know he leaves the toilet seat up? Eowyn: The pig! You’d never do that would you Faramir dear? Faramir: Are you kidding? I can’t even pee standing up.<P>The White Tree: No hide nor hare of a mention of this but I still have my hopes. It may be completely gone, but it would not take much to establish it. Pippin could see the dead tree as he travels through Minas Tirith with Gandalf and ask Gandalf about it. Either way, I doubt we would get Aragorn finding the shoot on the mountain side. That would take too much time. Perhaps it will just bloom magically after Sauron is defeated. I’m sure that will get on the nerves of some of you.<P>H.C.<p>[ May 07, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[Faramir Fan]

LOLOLOL<P>Of course Faramir would never leave the toilet seat up <P>You forgot to add in the conversation between Arwen and Galadriel...<P>Arwen: Granny (sobbing hopelessly), Daddy doesn't like my boyfriend.<P>Galadriel: There, there, I'm sure he will come around.<P>Seriously...I like your analysis. Especially because it would help for us to understand why in blazes PJ had the ring in Osgiliath to begin with...The nazgul would report back to Sauron and of course he would assume that Faramir took it to Minas Tirith, and concentrate his forces there to retrieve it.

[HCIsland]

Thought I would update this. These have come up in other threads but, like I said, it would be good to try and keep this together.<P>Sam & Frodo: There are action figures of Sam and Frodo in orc garb, so perhaps the marching with the orcs will be there.<P>Saruman & Wormtongue: <A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/2/1052497889" TARGET=_blank>OneRing</A> has what they call a pretty reliable description of Saruman and Wormtongue's death. It describes Wormtongue slitting Saruman's throat and throwing him over the edge at Orthanc. Then Legolas shoots Wormtongue with an arrow.<P>Sauron: In the same link as above Aragorn is described fighting Sauron in combat and getting his but kicked.<P>H.C.

[HCIsland]

Speculation of the first scene of RotK:<P>Each film begins with a sort of prologue (well not sort of for Fellowship) and then cuts directly to Frodo. The prologue is designed to thrust the viewer into the story and Frodo is the first character we see after the prologue to reaffirm that he is the central character.<P>My wife and I got talking on the weekend about how should they start RotK. After bouncing ideas back and forth we came up with this.<P>Return to the scene of Frodo versus the Nazgul at Osgiliath with that memorable shot of Frodo standing on the building holding out the Ring. The fell beast is struck by the arrow and Frodo is tackled by Sam. We follow the Nazgul as he regains control of his steed and hauls butt for Barad-dur with a shot of the now very familiar flaming eyeball. He enters and makes his way to a dark chamber.<P>Nazgul (Witch King?): My lord, the Ring is in Gondor.<P>Shot of the shadows at one end of the chamber. Suddenly a figure steps out with that all too familiar helmet we saw in the prologue.<P>Sauron: Retrieve it. Spare no effort. Destroy all those who oppose you.<P>Cut to Frodo with Sam and Gollum walking through Ithilien. After some dialogue to remind the viewers what is going on here, they spy the gates of Minas Morgul. They open and out comes The Witch King leading his army. There's now doubt what they are after and where they are going and why.<P>I'm sure this thought bugs a lot of you, but I really think we have to get used to the idea seeing Sauron very early in the film. I was thinking they can make Sauron's helmet immediately recongizable by even the most casual viewer by having it as part of their poster and other promotions.<P>Anyway, other thoughts on how they might kick off this one?<P>H.C.

[HCIsland]

This is something I started months ago and forgot about but began to finish it off over the weekend. I'm very interested in the whole process of turning something as mammoth as Lord of the Rings into film so I began writting a little synopses of each chapter and then beside it how it was handled in the film. I then extended this into predictions for TTT-Special Edition, RotK and even RotK-Special Edition.<P>Anyway, <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/hcisland/tolkien.htm" TARGET=_blank>here it is.</A> It's all colour coded by movie so it's pretty easy to follow I think. I'll keep it updated as more stuff comes in.<P>Obviously, it's chock full of my own opinions which carry no more weight than anyone elses and, of course, it's also full of spoilers, but nothing no one has seen elsewhere. I'm just trying to keep it all together for my own amusement.<P>H.C.

[Aratlithiel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Frodo & Sam: These should be the ones that carry the film and, thankfully, they have a fair amount to do. With Shelob and Cirith Ungol the majority of action and tension in the first half of the film should be coming from these two, as it should be. After that, I suspect much of the journey across Gorgoroth will be shortened, especially the marching with the orcs, which visually I just can’t see how they can make work. They’ll have to have an encounter with Gollum to remind the audience he is still on their trail and undoubtedly they will see the armies of Mordor gathering to the Black Gates as the land of Mordor itself is emptied. Another of my favourite scenes is when Sam and Frodo throw away their gear and it’s looking like we will get that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>H.C. - I'm just going to follow you around the board from now on. Everytime you post you make me feel a little better about the potential outcome of RotK. Of course, if you get my hopes up only to have PJ dash them to pieces, I get to kick your a**. <P>Kidding, kidding. You know I love ya!

[The Saucepan Man]

Good work, HC! I hope that you keep it updated. Although I'll have to stop looking at it if it gets <I>too</I> detailed as it might spoil the film a little bit too much. You seem to have a strange and terrible insight into the murky depths of Jackson's mind. <P>One small point (and to pick up on what we were talking about on the Spoilers thread), the URL for that shot of Sam holding up the phial says something like "Sam_in_Shelob's_Lair", so I am not so sure that it counts as evidence of the Silent Watchers being in.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Sam holding up the phial says something like "Sam_in_Shelob's_Lair", so I am not so sure that it counts as evidence of the Silent Watchers being in. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Very true but I don't think the person writing the title's or caption for the pics know anything more than we do. The thing is, I don't think Sam holds the phial up to Shelob but just attacks with Sting. As well, it seems brighter than the other shots of Shelob's Lair, making me think it's back outside. I could easily be wrong though.<P>H.C.

[Mordor_Queen]

ive heard that they're not gonna show the scouring of the shire!

[HCIsland]

Did anyone here say they were?<P>H.C.

[Frodo 007]

I think ROTK is gonna be the best movie ever made!!!!!!!!!!I've seariously been waiting for it for sooooooooooooo long, like years!!!!!!!