Aragorn's TT fall..

[WeWantsIt]

I've now seen The Two Towers nine times. The first time I saw it I was utterly let down. This book was my favorite and will always have a special place in my heart. Upon several viewings of it, I've come to love it as a film, but not an accurate representation of the book. I still can't help but question certain scenes from the movie though. The one that sticks out the most is the one in which Aragorn is taken over a cliff by a warg. If Jackson wants to add a scene, by all means do what you wish, but atleast have a reason for it. To me Aragorn's fall and arrival at Helm's Deep serves no purpose, not even from a cinematic view point. The only purse it covered was to let Theoden know that Isengard was on it's way....but didn't he know that? Or couldn't a scout just have easily told him?

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Wow! Creepy Gollum eyes! Cool!<P>I think that it was for dramatic purposes. It also showed that Aragorn is not invincible and that Arwen still has hope for his return (by her "appearing" and sending the grace of the Valar). I think it also showed his strength, perhaps leading up to his place on the throne... but was it necessary? No it wasn't.<P>Oh well, it doesn't bother me. In fact, I kind of enjoy it when people who haven't read the books gasp and say, "he can't die... he's not dead!" You know then that the audience does care for these characters and that they have been taken in by the film when that happens.

[WeWantsIt]

Rather then showing his strength, I believe that this shows Aragorn's weakness. Weakness was never really a quality that I saw Aragorn possess. I always saw Aragorn as being very Elf-like in nature. Strong-will and immortal (though we all know he's not). It pains me to see him portrayed with this flaw.

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Yes, it does show his weakness... that he can fall in battle... but it also shows his strength for the fact that he did live through it. But, it does, most definitely, show weakness.

[Diamond18]

That is just about the freakiest, and coolest, avatar that I have ever seen. <P>As to the scene...I think it had a lot to do with Brego, the horse. There were some scenes in the stable, I believe, that went into more detail about the wild Mearas that PJ added into the story. I read about it in the photo guide. If they had left the earlier scenes with Brego in, the part where Brego comes to him would have seem more important.<P>Either way, though, I don't really care for that scene. It doesn't bother me at all, per se, except when I think how the time could have been better spent showing Merry and Pippin drinking Ent-draught or learning about the Ent-wives or talking about the old lists... Or anything, really, with the Hobbits and Treebeard. They didn't have enough screen time, so I guess that is what would bother me about any little add on scenarios with Aragorn.<P>Edit: Actually, the biggest thing that scene accomplishes is showing Éowyn's concern, grief, and joy over Aragorn's near death experience.<p>[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Ah, yes, Diamond18. That thought hadn't even crossed my mind. But it does make absolute sense... I am sure that PJ wanted to get Eowyn's "love" for Aragorn across.

[Calenamarthiel]

I think Aragorn's more "vulnerable" scenes were added on to make the story appeal more to the modern audience. As we know, invincible heroes are not very believable nowadays, and the moviemakers definitely want their audience to believe in the stories they are telling. Hence, a more vulnerable and, sad to say, weaker Aragorn. It is true that in the books he almost never shows weakness, and he was never ashamed of his heritage, as he was shown to be in the films. But then, although his weaknesses were made more glaring in the films, they did not completely eradicate his heroic aspect either. I think the moviemakers just wanted a balance of humanness and heroism. Although I can't say that I'll every like that scene where he loses hope completely and kicks an orc's helmet when he thought Merry and Pippin were dead.

[HCIsland]

I think Aragorn seeing Saruman's host shouldn't down played. It was necessary to have the information relayed to Theoden. It was far more dramatic with Aragorn then a nameless scout. It prevented the introduction of yet another character in a movie that is already chock full of new ones. It allowed us another view of the approaching army which builds up the tension. This shot is far more effective with Aragorn there because we get to see his reaction as opposed to just showing the army for no apparent reason. This is all about building the tension at Helm's Deep.<P>Another neat thing it did was set up a very nice shot with Legolas giving Arwen's Star to Aragorn as viewed by Eowyn. Not a word was exchanged between Aragorn and Eowyn, but that shot showed unequivocally where Aragorn's love lies and the fact the Eowyn knows it. This was accomplished in about a two second shot. Talk about efficiency. <P>Aragorn falling off the cliff accomplishes a lot. It wasn't just gratuitous.<P>H.C.

[The Saucepan Man]

HC, what you say makes a lot of sense. I just don't get why that lemming of a Warg went over the cliff in the first place!

[Diamond18]

Well, it's quite simple.<P>Gandalf: "By foul craft Saruman has crossed Wargs with Lemmings. He is breeding a suicidal army in the caverns of Isengard."<P>Explains a lot, doesn't it?

[The Saucepan Man]

<P>Thanks for the explanation, Diamond!<P>

[Lily Bracegirdle]

My husband calls that scene "Boromir's Revenge" because it's Boromir's bracer that gets caught on the Warg's saddle. <P>I thought the scene was silly when I first saw it (apparently in Middle Earth armor floats), but after reading the posts here I have to concede it did its job.<P>Someone on another thread complained that after Gandalf's "death" in FotR and Aragorn's "death" in TTT, Frodo's "death" in Shelob's Lair is going to lose its impact. I thought that made good sense.<P>Great post, Diamond18!<P>-Lily

[Gorwingel]

Didn't realize that it was Boromir's thing that got stuck! <BR>I'll look for that the next time I see TTT

[Susan Delgado]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Gandalf: "By foul craft Saruman has crossed Wargs with Lemmings. He is breeding a suicidal army in the caverns of Isengard." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Wargs? No, those weren't Wargs. I think it's Hyenas he's been crossing with Lemmings

[Diamond18]

What do you think hyenas are?

[Pookabunny]

Once again, I am so happy to be part of the Barrow Downs because this place is full of people with intelligent thoughts. Not to mention people who disagree, yet respect each other's views. I LOVE THAT. So now that I'm done thanking you all for being understanding, rational Tolkien fans, here's my schpiel. By the way, this is one of the best discussions I've seen in a while.<P>ok, here's one I ADORE, brought to us by Wewantsit:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I've now seen The Two Towers nine times. The first time I saw it I was utterly let down. This book was my favorite and will always have a special place in my heart. Upon several viewings of it, I've come to love it as a film, but not an accurate representation of the book. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dude, that's awesome. I've only seen it 3 times and I enjoy it more and more each time I've seen it. There is some stuff I don't like, and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one (when it comes to things like Faramir, Haldir, etc - those are some popular ones). And thank you Wewantsit for being appreciative of the film as another representation of a story. Thank you!<P>Ok, next on brought to us by Tigerlilly:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I kind of enjoy it when people who haven't read the books gasp and say, "he can't die... he's not dead!" You know then that the audience does care for these characters and that they have been taken in by the film when that happens.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I admit, I was one person who was kinda confused with Aragorn's falling off the cliff. my very thoughts were "ok, so there is going to be a Return of the King", but how in all things sacred can there be a Return of the King without the KING?!?!?!? I've read and re-read the books, and I don't remember Aragorn reviving like some fallen ice-skater.<P>Next, from Susan Delgado:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Gandalf: "By foul craft Saruman has crossed Wargs with Lemmings. He is breeding a suicidal army in the caverns of Isengard."-----<BR>[QUOTE]Wargs? No, those weren't Wargs. I think it's Hyenas he's been crossing with Lemmings<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>BWUUAAAHAHAAHH!!! I guess those Hyhenas just add to Gimli's humor. I bet they were laughing, too . Hell, 2 decided to get up on a Gimli todempole! <P>Great thread everyone!

[Tar-Palantir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Someone on another thread complained that after Gandalf's "death" in FotR and Aragorn's "death" in TTT, Frodo's "death" in Shelob's Lair is going to lose its impact. I thought that made good sense. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>As my papa used to say, never believe they're dead until you can smell the body rotting. I can honestly say I never thought Frodo was dead when I first read RotK. Just like I never thought Gandalf died in Moria. You just kind of know these characters will pull through in one way or another.<P>I personally think the warg/fall sequence was as much to include more of Eowyn as it was to include Arwen. Remember when the Riders broke off from the main group and Eowyn begs to join? Of course Theoden says no because her responsibility is with the refugees. Well I think that makes up somewhat for her even going to Helm's Deep, because she wasn't supposed to be there either, was she?

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Wargs? No, those weren't Wargs. I think it's Hyenas he's been crossing with Lemmings <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thought they looked like hyenas. On the visualisation front, that was the only real problem for me. I wanted vicious evil mega-wolves, and all we got were silly, stuffed hyenas. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Well I think that makes up somewhat for her even going to Helm's Deep, because she wasn't supposed to be there either, was she? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, it was sensible to give Eowyn a greater role in this part of the story (particularly given her significance in RotK). And, since she wasn't sent off to Dunharrow with the woman, children and senior citizens (as happened in the book), she also had to be given an opportunity to protest over not being allowed to fight (presumably, her accompanying the Riders of Rohan incognito will be included in the RotK film). <P>Also, having the citizens of Rohan at Helms Deep allowed for the opportunity to show the horror of the forthcoming battle when the old men and boys were being given weapons and armour. I thought that this was one of the most poignant moments of the film.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I personally think the warg/fall sequence was as much to include more of Eowyn as it was to include Arwen. Remember when the Riders broke off from the main group and Eowyn begs to join? Of course Theoden says no because her responsibility is with the refugees. Well I think that makes up somewhat for her even going to Helm's Deep, because she wasn't supposed to be there either, was she? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Very good point about developing the Eowyn character. This scene does have multiple purposes. <P>As for her going to Helm's Deep, it's not that different from her role in the book where she takes the people of Edoras into the refuge at Dunharrow. I don't think they'll have a Dunharrow in RoTK so having her go with the people to Helm's Deep essentially keeps her in the same roll, just a different location.<P>H.C.