If J.R.R. Tolkien saw the movies....

[Jesse]

I did a search on this and found no topic related to it whatsoever. So....<P><BR> If J.R.R. Tolkien was alive today and saw the live action films, what do you think he'd say? Would he be impressed or disappointed? What are your thoughts?

[eleanor_niphredil]

I'm sure that he would be impressed, and touched that anyone would be prepared to spend so much money and time to make his book into a movie.

[dunadan_aragorn]

i know that tolkien would be disgusted. i loved ttt and fotr, but tolkien said himself that he would hate it, and he also said he would hate it if their was this mass merchandising. i myselft have a stack of lotr cards that i treasure, but tolkien would have hated all the burger king toys, mugs, all the action figures, junk like that.

[Diamond18]

He would hate all the hype and commercialism surrounding the movies.<P>I think he would be mildly impressed by at least some of the visual aspects: costumes and scenery, sets and effects, maybe even appreciate some of the acting performances.<P>He might even like FotR somewhat, but he'd hate TTT and overall I think he'd have many, many complaints about even the smallest changes in both movies. From reading his Letters I got the impression that even with the excellent visualizations and beautiful music (best part!), he would not like the character changes at all, and that would probably ruin the whole thing for him, detracting from any of the pluses.<P>That said, I love FotR to pieces and like TTT overall. But being that I didn't write the books, I am more tolerant and accepting of changes. I guess if someone took a book I wrote and altered it as much as TTT was, there is no way I'd like it.

[Jesse]

I agree he'd be disappointed with all the media and hype about it. He wouldn't like that.

[Lush]

He would probably compliment Legolas's hairstyle, and leave it at that.

[Elfchick7]

I think that he wouln't like the movies for all of the above reasons and because they can cut off people's imagination about what the people and places looked like.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Just keep in mind: JRRT was the one who sold the movie rights in the first place.

[dunadan_aragorn]

wasnt that his family? i mean, his family might like getting the money, everybody likes money!

[Gorwingel]

I would have to say, that even though I would hope that he would love it, Tolkien would probably want to keep as far away as he could from all of hype surrounding the films. This was a man who never even owned a television during life, he would not like it at all.

[HCIsland]

I'm not even sure if he even liked film. Does anyone have any information on that? A a literary and languages professor, he may have considered the medium trivial.<P>H.C.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

I think Tolkien would hate it. <P>As Diamond18 said, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> He would hate all the hype and commercialism surrounding the movies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And I think he would hate the way it was changed just for money. I believe that if he ever imagined it being made into a movie, he would want it to be as perfect as possible, and not changed for money or to try to bring in more Tolkien fans. I think he would have liked it never made in to a movie if he had known what would happen. And besides, if you change something just to bring people to the movies (let's leave money out of the picture for now), then I believe that's very wrong. I see them as fans who are not properly introduced to Tolkien, and they are decieved almost. I believe that Tolkien would rather have no movies. I think that a big reason he wrote LotR was for those who want it. It's there and you can read it if you want to. I think he didn't want it promoted, especially like TTT was. And I think the thing that would aggrivate him the most would be how it was promoted; wrongly. Wrongly, I believe, in a sense that the movies were changed so much it is not worthy of representing the books. And as some people have already said, it is not worthy of bearing the name, "The Two Towers". I think that this was like a slap in Tolkien's face. I think that Tolkien wanted LotR (and the rest of Middle-earth) to be left at the books, not made into movies, or anything else.<P>I'm sure this might offend some people (especially those introduced to Tolkien by the movies, but tough. I don't care. And keep in mind that this is <I>my</I> opinion.<p>[ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[Lush]

Um, Willie, my dear, you can believe all you want, but it was Tolkien <B>himself</B> who sold the movie rights. Unless I am on crack, or hallucinating, this appears to be historical fact.

[Iargwath]

Wasnt it Peter Jackson that said Tolkien wouldnt of liked the films? I dont know the exact quote, but i remember reading it somewhere.

[JenFramp]

good 'ole Mr.Tolkien is probably turning in his grave right this very moment

[Lalaith]

Things Tolkien might like:<BR>The visual realisations of his fantasy locations.<BR>Gandalf<BR>Gollum<BR>Things he would REALLY hate:<BR>Gimli<BR>Theoden's 'satanic possession' and exorcism.

[Diamond18]

Don't forget Faramir in the "hate" category. I wish I had the Letters right now, because there was one lengthly letter he wrote to some filmmakers detailing all the things that were wrong with a proposed movie script. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

[Deathwail]

How could he not love Smeagol,everyone loves little Smeagol.

[Rose Cotton]

Think of it this way. As people have said it was Tolkien who sold the rights. Therefore he gave the O.K. for a movie to be made out of his books. Tolkien may not have watched movies but I think he knew that the movies couldn't be exactly like the books. In fact at the time he gave the rights the idea of making three movies at once was far from anyone's mind which would have resulted in even more changes.<P>If only Tolkien were here.

[Vorrothiel]

I like the thread.. Glad someone brought it up.. <BR>You know what?? I think J.R.R Tolkien would have liked the films.. But what I think he would have HATED more than everything is the money machine they have made out of LOTR... Like someone mentioned the cans and toys in McDondal's and the children's store.. Or whatever.. Tolkien spent 14 years of his life to write this book, and the books are more than just a commercsial selling thing..

[LePetitChoux]

He'd probably get into trouble for Killing Lego-Lusters...

[Guinevere]

Yes, Diamond 18, I know the letter you've mentioned! <BR>From #210, (Tolkien's comments on the film "treatment" of LotR.)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"If details are to be added to an already crowded picture, they should at least fit the world described."<P>"I do earnestly hope that in the assignment of actual speeches to the characters they will be represented as I have presented them: in style and sentiment. I should resent perversion of the characters even more than the spoiling of the plot and scenery." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think Tolkien really could have been satisfied with the scenery of the movies, but I'm sure he would have objected to those many plot changes in TTT and especially the altered characters (the worst being Faramir).

[Jesse]

What do you all think of what Tolkien would say about Isengard's Army? Would he be impressed??

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

To be honest, Tolkien wouldn't have personally liked it. Especially not the elaborations and expantions involved. But I think had we shown him just a few of the scenes, he'd have loved them. Mainly the ones that are so true to the books, like Gandalf coming to Bilbo's door, and Aragorn's tracking of Merry and Pippin, and even Boromir's death battle. He also would have probably liked a few of the little details, like a young Merry and Pippin stealing the firework, and the imaculate design of Bag-End (actually that's a pretty big detail).

[Purple Monkey]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>He would probably compliment Legolas's hairstyle, and leave it at that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Too true, Lush. Go you. <P>Ps: Is that how you do that quote thing?<BR>Pss: Yes, it is. Thankee! ^.^<p>[ February 03, 2003: Message edited by: Purple Monkey ]

[Deiagorn]

Yes, well done.<BR>I think he would appreciate the language, the scale of the film, the casting, the visuality of the film, the closeness to the races costume-wise and acting wise<P>He would hate, commercialisation (spelt wrong), the name pronounciation, the strange script, the lack of Tom Bombadil, the lack of Gandalf's erm.. aggravation/attitude problem (you know what i mean..), and he would hate the cockney uruk-hai accents..

[Magician of Nathar]

Yes, he would be impressed, with the wonderful music(Howard Shore Rocks!!!), the beautiful costumes, the award winning make up and visual effect. But I will be anything he will complain A WHOLE HECK A LOT.<P>From his letters and his comments on BBC radio adaption and his comments on the animation one, I just know he is going to complain. He is really a picky old man. I remember him complain about BBC calling old man willow "ally of Mordor", I wonder what he will do when he saw all of them left out? And about Faramir? And god know how many times Aragorn was almost dead? Oh he is going to complain alright.

[Magician of Nathar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And besides, if you change something just to bring people to the movies (let's leave money out of the picture for now), then I believe that's very wrong. I see them as fans who are not properly introduced to Tolkien, and they are decieved almost. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I beg to differ. For your information I read the books before I saw the movie, and I still have to give all my compliments and admirations to the movies. I would not call the changes "deceiving", it's your choice whether to watch the movie before reading or not.<P>Nor would I think the changes to please public as "wrong". PJ made the movies because he like the books, but also because he know he is going to profit richly. Money ranks first in modern world, my friend. Even old Tolkien admits that.<P>And I think those changes in the movies sensible, and very adequate if you ask me. With all due respect to Tolkien, I have to say some of his scenes are a drag. He used the first half of FOTR jsut to build up.(Alot wonderful authors do that, but it's a pain to the readers. They almost never reread the build up part.) The movie shortened the drawn out scenes, and added suspense and intrigue to it. That stirs up some flavor. I know most of you here are loyal book fans. But I also know alot of people who dropped the book at chapter 3 or 4 in FOTR because it's too boring. I almost numbered one among them.

[Jesse]

I agree 100% with everything Magician of Nathar said.

[Merri]

I don't know . . . I think he'd be amazed at the fact that we could even come close to bringing his world to life, but I think he'd also be disgusted with all the commercialism surrounding the movie (ex: movie posters, action figures, replicas, etc., etc., etc.)<P>Personally, I loved the movies just as much as I loved the books.<P><BR>Keeper of Dol Goldur, it really sounds like you actually knew Tolkien by saying:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>To be honest, Tolkien wouldn't have personally liked it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Just thought I'd point that out <p>[ January 31, 2003: Message edited by: Merri ]

[Rimbaud]

Revolted, deafened and wondering how people had spent so much effort and money and yet missed the point. <B>Character</B>.

[Rosolas]

I don't know if this is the correct thread to post this, but I read on the Children's BBC website that Tolkien sold the rights to Lord of the Rings in the 1960s for £10,000. Quite a small amount of money even in those day's I would think!

[HCIsland]

There's a <A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/group/814" TARGET=_blank>scanned Starburst article</A> over at OneRing that for the most part is not very interesting but at the end they had this quote from Tolkien that I think fits into this thread.<P>This is in a letter by him in reference to the earlier aborted attempt to make a movie of LotR. They were having trouble with the Helm's Deep scene.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I don't know why they don't just leave this whole episode out. If you can't make it fit, cut it out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is followed up with a quote from Brian Sibley, who wrote the BBC Radio adaptation for LotR.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> When writers adapt their own work they often take more liberties than their fans would imagine, more than any other writer would dare do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think we have to be careful in assuming what Tolkien would have thought.<P>H.C.<p>[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I don't think there is any question but the Professor would love some, perhaps even most, of the visual presentation.<P> While he undoubtedly wouldn't like the changes in plotting and characterization it's possible he could have been made to understand the necessity for them. And PJ actually makes fewer and far less drastic changes than the author of the script that Tolkien tears apart in his 'Letters'. <P> I understand Tolkien sold the rights because he wanted the money for his children's education. But sell them he did and so must have been prepared to grit his teeth and endure the consequences . <P> However the fact that the movie has inspired innumerable people to go out and buy the books couldn't help but please him since what he seems to have feared most was that the bowdlerized movie version would replace his. Clearly that hasn't happened.

[Theoric Windcaller]

My brother and I were having this discussion two nights ago. Tolkien most likely would have liked the movies, just not the merchandising. Like said earlier before in this thread, he would not have respected the mugs, toys, t-shirts, hats etc.<P>Tolkien would have liked the FotR and TTT and I hope we all likek TRotK. Peter, don't screw anything up...

[mordor136]

I believe if Tolkien were still alive to enjoy it he would have been definately involved with the project and possibly there wouldnt be such a mass franchise for lotr merchandise. But, seen from a reality standpoint I the think he would be horrifed with the hype surrounding his life's work. <P>[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: mordor136 ]<p>[ June 07, 2003: Message edited by: mordor136 ]

[The Only Real Estel]

He would not be happy with all the hype & 'mass merchindising' surrounding the movie, that's for sure. He would also not be happy with some of the larger wanderings from the book ( although perhaps he wouldn't mind to much the smaller ones..? ). But I think he'd like some of the characters portrayl, Gandalf & Aragorn's especially.

[Lyra Greenleaf]

I would guess that he would probably like the "look" of the film, as in costumes, sets, etc. I think this has been said before... But I don't think he could approve of the film really. How would it even be possible? It was his dream, his "baby" and PJ's interpretation could never match up. Or at least, this is how I would feel in the situation. I think there was too much changed to really please him- if he'd wanted to make those changes he would! But there you go, such is life. I think he would understand- and a great side effect is that it has people reading the books more and falling in love with them. He's have to like that!

[Elentarimir]

I think he might be impressed with some things, like the location settings, and some characters, and the soundtrack. But he would hate a lot of the hype and things they messed up. So, I'd say a mixture of both.

[Estella Brandybuck]

My friend and I had a talk about this not too long ago - we came to the conclusion that everything would be a lot simpler if the good Professor was still alive today. <P>As has been said many times, while the hype and merchandising would have probaby been too much for him, I believe he would have enjoyed the visuals. This is just my opinion, but I think most of the casting would have pleased him, especially for Gandalf and Bilbo. But like I said, that's just what I think, and of course, most of this thread is just our opinions. We'll never know for sure just what Tolkien would've thought. <P>Actually, what I wonder about is if he would have even wanted to see the films, seeing as how he didn't own a television or anything... <P>Of course, I wouldn't blame him if he utterly despised the movies. As a (very amature ) writer myself, I can understand being more than a bit miffed at the slightest change. Maybe a line he was really proud of that wasn't included, a minor character that he was very fond of who was left out... But again, it's all debatable seeing as how we'll never know for sure.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm sure this might offend some people (especially those introduced to Tolkien by the movies...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Maybe it's just me, but I watched the first movie before I read the books, and your comment didn't offend me. It's your opinion, after all, and you're completely entitled to it. But sometimes I feel like a bit of a hypocrite, since, for the most part, I've grown to like the books more than the films, which makes me wonder if I'm "forgetting my roots" or something. But I do my best not to criticize either one. I consider them both to be beautiful works of art, each with their own strengths and faults.

[Sapphire_Flame]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As a (very amature ) writer myself, I can understand being more than a bit miffed at the slightest change. Maybe a line he was really proud of that wasn't included, a minor character that he was very fond of who was left out...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My thoughts exactly. I think Tolkien would have been disappointed with some of the changes (removal of numerous characters, extreme character alterations of others...), but overall would have enjoyed the movies. The hype surrounding them is what he'd hate (and this is just what I think). <P>What I want to know is if we're talking about if Tolkien lived until the movies came out, or if he were pulled from the 1950's when the books were first published. This would change his opinion drastically.<P>If he were pulled here from the 50's and saw the movies, he would be stunned. Technology has advanced so much between then and now, and he would be amazed at some of the unusual scenes, characters, and locations. Personally, and if this were the case, I think he would wonder where we procured a Balrog and the Nazguls' steeds, not to mention the Eye. And where did we get hobbits and orcs? <P>In either of the above stated cases, I think some things would touch him positively: the locations, dedication to detail (scale, ethnic differences in items, etc.), costumes, and of course the wonderful score. Some of these may have been able to amend for the (rather tragic) plot changes that PJ inserted. <P>But, as a writer and artist, I think he would respect the creative liberties that PJ took. He might not have liked them, but he can understand that not everyone would have the same vision as he did. Of course, if Tolkien had been alive until this time, and PJ is as devoted to the books as he says he is, he would have gone to the Professor for advice on producing his masterwork. As an aspiring author myself, I know I wouldn't like anyone wantonly changing my work for no good reason. <P>I don't think Tolkien would have hated the movies; he would have liked them, but would have been a little disappointed that PJ hadn't been true to the original work.

[secretfire]

Imagine you were Tolkien. What would you say about:<P>1. Cate Blanchett as Galadriel<BR>2. The portrayal of Galadriel

[Orofaniel]

I think he would have liked some of it, but not all. I think he would have been dissapointed that Tom Bombadil wasn't in the first movie...I was.....But hey, I'm not Tolkien!

[Frodo 007]

I think Tolkien would have been impressed with the movies!Im not sure how he would like all the hype up over it though but i think he would be proud!