ELves at Helms Deep

[thunder_goddess]

Im sorry if this has been posted before? But did you think the sending of Elves to Helms Deep was a good or bad move in making the movies. I think it put a nice touch to the movies, but while I was reading the book, I had the impression that most elves just cared about themselves and would go off to the undying lands if Middle Earth ever really did come to mayhem. I'm not done with the last book yet. What do you all think?<P>----------------------------------------<BR>Aragorn- You have my sword, err, dont you??<BR>Frodo - Yes, and you keys, and wallet, that jewel around your neck, and your ring. You really gotta be more careful with your stuff dude.

[Arwen Evenstar the Fair]

I thought it was really cool!!!!!!! (even though it wasn't in the book) I love the elves. I think it really needed to be in there!! (for the movie anyways)

[PigsnieLite]

I thought TT didnt haf enough elves so I wuz glad when I saw them at Helms Deep. WE ALWAS NEED MORE ELVES! And you wont see too many elves in ROTK either. (I jest finished the book.)

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I think it was O.k. I'm glad Haldir died.

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think it put a nice touch to the movies, but while I was reading the book, I had the impression that most elves just cared about themselves and would go off to the undying lands if Middle Earth ever really did come to mayhem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In fact, Lothlorien was under attack from Dul Guldur during the War of the Ring. And I think that the peoples of Thranduil, Brand and Dain II were too.<P>On other threads, the point has been made that it would have been clumsy and time-consuming to show these other battles, so the Elves were at Helms Deep to make up for this - to show that they too were involved in the War of the Ring. I tend to go along with this because much the same line of thinking occured to me while watching the film.

[HCIsland]

I think it was necessary for the reason's Saucepan gives. Imagine if Elves never did show up and then Elrond and Galadriel breeze in after all the fighting's done. The average film viewer would roll their eyes and think, "what the hell did you do in all this?" PJ had to prevent that reaction from the audience.<P>H.C.

[Ainaserkewen]

Why do movies always make these changes? The elves do only care about themselfs. But I guess everyone but the dyehard fans don't care. Oh well.

[Tar-Palantir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The elves do only care about themselfs <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is not true, for too many reasons to list here on this thread. Suffice to say three things:<P>1) Rivendell's aid, Lorien's aid, Galadriel's gifts, Legolas, Gildor, Glorfindel, Elladan, Elrohir. They all helped.<P>2) The elves used to fight side by side with men. Ever heard of The Last Alliance? Gil-Galad and Elendil dying together - so sad.<P>3) It is now the time of men - not elves, their time in ME is past. That is the whole point.<P>Elves at Helm's Deep? I support the other statements regarding time and audience constraints, I hope that is why and I like to believe PJ put that much thought into it, honoring the battles North and East. It didn't impress me like the Prologue did, but they were impressive nonetheless.

[Arwen Imladris]

I am very mad about the elves at helms deep. I like elves just as much as the next elf, but I didn't like the major plot change to the books. This makes the victory seem less importent and sweet. The could have taken that out and instead put shelob in, or something else. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm glad Haldir died. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So am I. I know it is mean, but he wasn't supposed to be there in the first place!

[HCIsland]

I know this is drifting off topic, but do folks notice how each of the major plot changes is accompanied by a line from one of the characters representing shock.<P>Elves at Helm's Deep - Theoden: "How is this possible?"<P>Entmoot ends with them deciding not to fight - Merry: "How can that be your decision?"<P>Frodo and Sam end up at Osgiliath - Sam: "We're not supposed to even be here."<P>H.C.

[Darkside]

H. C. - Ohh! Yes! Very good observation! Do you think that the Three-Headed Scripwriting Monster stuck those lines in as a way of saying "Yeah, we screwed up. Does this make it bette?"

[HCIsland]

I think that may be partially true. I know if I were writting the script, watching the reactions to the curve balls would be fun.<P>H.C.

[Grimbold]

Frankly, since that scene of the elves at Helm's Deep, I've been wanting to take up archery.

[Andephelien]

Well, I see most people think it was a good idea. (I just changed my name from Thunder_goddess to this one). But I still think Elves would have just ran away. But since more people just see the movie than the book, it was a good idea.

[HCIsland]

LoTR - Book 5 - Chapter 2<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "The Lady of the Wood!" [said Gimli]. She read many hearts and desires. Now why did not we wish for some of our own kinsfolk Legolas?"<P>Legolas stood before the gate and turned his bright eyes away north and east, and his fair face was troubled. "I do not think that any would come," he answered. "They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is why there are no dwarfs or elves at Helm's Deep in the book. The implication is that if this barrier wasn't there, the elves would have come as well as dwarfs if they knew of the threat. They sure aren't running.<P>H.C.

[elf_Legolas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm glad Haldir died. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>*eyes widen as she falls out of chair* How can you say such a thing??????

[Elfstone]

Elves at Helm's Deep made me want to puke. The only reason I didn't actually puke is because I already got it all out when Aragorn fell off the cliff and died - no wait, he's not dead, Arwen has magical elf powers and can impart the grace of the Valar! A little grace for Frodo, a little grace for Aragorn - I was expecting her to impart a little grace on Boromir so that he could show up at Helm's Deep too!

[Darkside]

Saucepan Man:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> On other threads, the point has been made that it would have been clumsy and time-consuming to show these other battles, so the Elves were at Helms Deep to make up for this - to show that they too were involved in the War of the Ring. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>More clumsy than the Aragron-falling-over-a-cliff-with-a-fat-hyena scene? I hardly think so. They could have easily left that dreadful scene out. And, instead of the Elrond/Galadriel Psychic Friends Network scene, they could have used the conversation between Gilmli and Legolas that H.C. Island posted. (I know it is taken from RotK, but Peter Jackson and friends haven't let things like proper placement stop them before.)<P>They could have had Gimli and Legolas atop the walls of Helm's Deep, waiting for the approaching battle:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "The Lady of the Wood!" [said Gimli]. She read many hearts and desires. Now why did not we wish for some of our own kinsfolk Legolas?"<BR>Legolas stood before the gate and turned his bright eyes away north and east, and his fair face was troubled. "I do not think that any would come," he answered. "They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands."<P> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> (thamks H.C. !)<BR>Then, cut to brief scenes showing the Elves and Dwarves fighting their own battles.<P> Very subtle, but showing that everyone is invloved in the War. Then, Helm's Deep could have been properly filmed with Eomer and the Riders instead of Elves. And ended properly with Gandalf and the Huorns (oh to have seen the Huorns!)instead of the Charge of the White Brigade.

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> More clumsy than the Aragron-falling-over-a-cliff-with-a-fat-hyena scene? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Don't get me on that one. I hate those hyena-lemming hybrids. <P>True, they could have had the dialogue. But why not have the real thing? The army of Elves worked for me in the film. They looked good and I could understand why they were there. <P>I think it comes down to whether or not you dislike radical changes in the storyline. I can live with them, so I thought it worked OK (well, second time I saw it, anyway).<P>But I'm with you on the Huorns.

[elven maiden Earwen]

i thought it was really cool that the ewlves came because i love elves but i would have rather them not come because thren you could see that men are strong and they can survive without elves allways watching the back. alsoi i wished the took out the elves cuz then it would be more like the books and im a big fan of the books!but i hate that Halidir died! <P>~Eärwen~

[Darkside]

Saucepan Man, I'm glad you are with me on the Huorns. <P>I guess I'm not one for radical changes in the storyline. Sorry. I am glad that you are able to get past them and enjoy the movies.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> they could have used the conversation between Gilmli and Legolas that H.C. Island posted. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually, I put that quote in there when it was being argued that the elves don't care about the fate of men because their blowing outta there anyway. I certainly don't agree with that.<P>Although the elves at Helm's Deep threw me the first time I saw it, I believed it was necessary. Talking about the battles works fine in the book, in a movie you have to show them fighting and dieing. I think it's unavoidable. One line from Gimli would not have been remembered by the average movie goer at the end of RoTK. In my opinion, the point had to be made more forcefully. Most people won't forget Haldir's death.<P>H.C.

[Dunlondion]

I think the elves at Helms Deep is reallllllllllllly annoying same with Eomer turning up at the end without any Hourns, why couldn' Peter Jackson leave it the way it was its better that way the Victory is sweeter.

[Dunlondion]

The elves looked good though and it was ok for the movie<BR> <B>The elves</B><BLOCKQUOTE>code:<HR><pre> </pre><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[LIST]null<I>Movie</I> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Tar-Palantir]

The logistics of the elves arrival is more bothersome to me than the actuality of it. How did they they find the time to march from Lothlorien to arrive before the orc hordes? I know they don't need time for conventional sleep, but even so it's like 200 miles to Helm's Deep. And from Isengard to Helm's Deep is less than 100, and the Uruk's didn't really require sleep either. All approximate mileages of course.

[HCIsland]

The mirror of Galadriel solves all problems in that regard as it shows "things that have not yet come to pass".<P>Bingo, bongo, solvo.<P>H.C.

[Tar-Palantir]

Thank you HC, that is quite an imagination you have there. You should be on PJ's payroll as a 'damage control' supervisor. So then, did Haldir know he was going to die (rhetorical, I assume it's too specific)? Did they forsee the fall of Helm's Deep without them or just the forthcoming battle? Why didn't they send out a rider with news to warn the Rohirrim?<P>Another thing - what is this about Haldir talking of "honoring old allegiances" or something like that. The Rohirrim never had any allegiance with elves, never faught "side by side". Phooey! <p>[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Galadriel drew away he mists of Sauron, so that Eorl and the Northmen could come to the rescue of Gondor.<BR>I think he meant the whole 'Elf-man' alliance. A possible sign of more Elves in RoTK?

[Calavanya]

I don't min anything, really, it's just a movie. But ... well, when we put all 3 films together in the end, what shall we get? Why don't we re-write the whole thing. I might be just a little frustrated (yesterday I wasn't!), but when I think what PJ's pulled out of his sleeve in ROTK... I feel a slight nausea. Why don't we, fans, make a real LOTR movie, hire and pay PJ (as if easy done) and make it five or six films instead of three. That way we'll get a true story, if possible.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I really, really, doubt this would happen.

[Cibbwin]

I liked it all around, especially for this generation of movie-goers, the speech about the alliances was genuine, and there isn't much of that nowadays.

[Tar-Palantir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Galadriel drew away he mists of Sauron, so that Eorl and the Northmen could come to the rescue of Gondor.<BR>I think he meant the whole 'Elf-man' alliance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you Inderjit. I would call that a sketchy alliance at best. The elves were certainly far away from the actual battlefield. Anywho, your answer brings up another interesting thing, it has become necessary on occasion for you, me, and others to dig something up from outside the LotR that most readers can't recall or never read, just to defend something that is a mistake or change in the film.<P>Do you see the irony there?

[Duncariel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm glad Haldir died <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sad, but I suppose that since he wasn't supposed to be there anyway, they had warrant to off him. <P>I'm a major Helm's Deep fan, from the book, not the movie, it's my favorite chapter. PJ sorta had to put the Elves in in the movie though, since he portrayed the men as pathetically as possible.

[mollecon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In fact, Lothlorien was under attack from Dul Guldur during the War of the Ring. And I think that the peoples of Thranduil, Brand and Dain II were too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes they were - I believe it's mentioned in the appendecies to RotK.<P>Oh & the movies were made for movie goers - not book fanatics

[Tar-Palantir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oh & the movies were made for movie goers - not book fanatics <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Oh. Your probably right, questioning the movie only seems to accomplish more discussion and deeper thought. Who wants that anyway? <p>[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Yes-Dain and Bard ,(the Second) held fort against some of Sauron's armies, but both were slain. Lothlorien would never had been taken, unless Sauron came there himself.

[Lady Iverin]

Well, even though the elves only care for themselves, it was kinda nice having them in the movie. But I DO NOT think Haldir should have died. And, I think that it was a little unfair to Legolas that he wasn't the only elf in Helm's Deep.

[Elfstone]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Lothlorien would never had been taken, unless Sauron came there himself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Once Gondor fell all realms would have fallen, and the Enemy would not have needed to come. His army led by the Nine would have been enough. Lorien put up a great resistance, but in the end would have been just another domino. <P>Pellenor turned the tide that would not have otherwise been turned.

[Peri]

I actually liked it. Mostly because I got to see my fav elf in action (too bad he had to die though). I honestly didn't mind the change.

[Lady Iverin]

I am about THIS close to killing PJ. I mean, it was nice to have elves in Helm's Deep to help out but it's just too good to be true. Who decided that Haldir should die?! <BR>Elves are too concerned w/ themselves to help anyone. Doesn't anyone remember Elrond's Council? I mean, Gandalf was asking Elrond to help destroy the ring and Elrond's like "No, the time of the elves is over, blah blah..." Come on people, what good did the elves do? They just took the place of Eomer and the Rohirrim(yes, they were at Helm's Deep from the beginning.) Oh well, there had better not be any more disappointments in LOTR. It's just like Aragorn falling over the cliff. Jeez...

[Eressië Ailin]

I know this has been said before, but I am REALLY gald that Haldir died. I mean, he wasn't even supposed to be there in the first place!

[Faramir Fan]

I had the opportunity to see TTT again recently and something hit me while watching the elves at Helm's Deep sequence. I finally think I understand why PJ did it.<P>In Edoras you have Aragorn and Theoden butting heads, with Theoden saying "When last I looked, Theoden, not Aragorn was King of Rohan."<P>Then later at Helm's Deep when Aragorn is trying to convince Theoden to send out riders. PJ has changed Theoden from the books, where Theoden is very dependent on Gandalf and Aragorn; Gandalf to tell him what to do and Aragorn to lead the battle.<P>But in the movie PJ has made Theoden a little stronger character wise and he buts heads with Gandalf, Aragorn and even Gimli, when they try to tell him what to do. To all of a sudden to have Aragorn commanding Theoden's army, would seem odd. <P>Enter the elves at Helm's Deep, they are are Aragorn's command. He is their General, yelling out commands in elvish and Theoden commands his own men. Yet is is very evident that Theoden is the supreme commander saying to Aragorn "Aragorn...fall back to the keep, get your men out of there." Of course "your men" refering to the elves under his command - interesting choice of words - lol.<P>By bringing the elves to Helm's Deep, PJ accomplished a couple of things. As was said earlier in this thread in the books we knew the elves were not just sitting back that they were fighting on their own borders. In the movie we see that, abiet in the wrong location. But more importantly, we see Aragorn as the commander of a very powerful army and he is a good one at that. Doing it this way, he has now earned Theoden's respect and sets up his command in ROTK.<P>Sorry for such a long post...but I think I finally understand.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"Another thing - what is this about Haldir talking of "honoring old allegiances" or something like that. The Rohirrim never had any allegiance with elves, never faught "side by side". Phooey!"<P> Didn't you notice Haldir is looking straight at Aragorn when he speaks of the Elves 'old allegiance'. The Alliance was with Elendil and his Heirs, meaning they still have an obligation to support Aragorn. And as he is fighting with the Rohirrim so do the Elves. Besides they can't tell one variety of Men from another anyway

[The Only Real Estel]

What he probably ment by that 'old allegiances' was not the Rohirrim & elves, but rather men in general & elves. I thought that Helms Deep was acceptable. Mainly because it seemed to it right in with the movie, although I usually don't like it when a large part is added to the movie & wasn't in the books. I'm glad Haldir died if only for this reason. Each of these movies need to have at least one main or important character die, or else it would seem like the charactersa are being protected. Out.

[HCIsland]

Very good observation FaramirFan.<P>H.C.

[Meela]

Good move. I really enjoyed the addition.<P>I found that the parts I enjoyed the most were the movie only parts, ie. the elves at Helms Deep and Osgiliath.<p>[ June 04, 2003: Message edited by: Meela ]

[Frodo 007]

I liked that idea coz i love it when two totally different people(races in this case)team up to destroy evil!!!I find it very touching and it makes me think that maybe peace is possible if we all work together

[Blackknight12]

ok there were soem elves there in the book it says. your axe is comfort enough gimili wish we had a couple houndred more form i think he says the name of the forest btu then he says we only have a couple form ther ei think it was an ok move on the movie. but i did not like the part when hildar died beacuse that was totally not cool epscaily when he was nto kiled in the book he was in book one but nto 2 or 3 ithink so they felt they had to kill him i guess and ot make a point about men and elves dieing toghter i guess. well i was kinda mad at that part i was about to go off in elvish and yes i speak some but this is a good sentence not bad . <P>Elen sila lumenn omentilmo. Mellon en amin lla naa beleghtar.<P><BR>well any ways u guys are cool on this forum and i think u gusy rock talk to u guys later

[Neferchoirwen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It is now the time of men - not elves, their time in ME is past. That is the whole point <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It was really consederate of the elves, indeed, to aid the men at Helm's Deep in remembrance of their alliance. Though it was felt all through out the movie that men are inferior, they still helped them, instead of leaving them to their weaknesses. They made the Vala real proud by believing in their Middle Earth brethren <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> PJ has changed Theoden from the books, where Theoden is very dependent on Gandalf and Aragorn; Gandalf to tell him what to do and Aragorn to lead the battle <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>A great observation. I noticed that Theoden is being put on the spot, and I felt that Theoden is not giving orders to Aragorn as a superior:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "Aragorn...fall back to the keep, get your men out of there." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...but do folks notice how each of the major plot changes is accompanied by a line from one of the characters representing shock. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I never thought of it as that way, but now that I think about it, I remember seconding my demotion to Theoden, Merry and Sam while watching the movie. PJ <B>was</B> conscious of these changes by pointing them out using the reacting characters themselves.