The importance of intelligent debate [Archive] - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

02-21-2003, 01:36 PM

I expressed the following views in a private message earlier in the week, as well as in one of the threads on this board; and was urged to publish my views on the off-chance that I can calm down some of the more heated debates on the subject of the recent Lord of the Rings films.

Now, I know that this is a very emotive subject, as it concerns our deepest feelings about Tolkien's work and how it ought to be (or has been) handled by the film-makers, but I have been growing increasingly concerned about the standard of debate in this board, so I shall quote two passages from the PM in question and then leave you to talk amongst yourselves. I see no reason to remain and discuss the films, in which I have no real interest other than as cinematic curiosities.I have finally been able to get off my chest the nagging problem I've had with Movies for a long time. People have been polarising into two groups: those who loved the films and won't hear a word against them and those who hated the films and don't have anything good to say about them. Both groups are breaking all the rules of intelligent discussion: criticising people rather than their ideas, taking comments about the film personally and choosing their words apparently at random, with no thought to their possible interpretation. Perhaps some would have benefitted from seeing the entire Entmoot in real time to teach them a little patience.What upsets me is that we all came here because we admire Tolkien, and people are losing sight of that in their little personal crusades; which lead to the sort of feeble debate that he would have deplored.Please try to observe the rules of reasonable debate to which Tolkien himself conformed. If we wish to honour his memory, surely we can do so better by discussing things in a manner that would have made him proud, rather than one that would have aroused only his scorn.

Estelyn Telcontar

02-21-2003, 01:44 PM

A heartfelt 'Amen' from the moderator of this forum, Squatter! My work would be easier and more enjoyable if everyone heeded those rules.

Diamond18

02-21-2003, 03:16 PM

I've been drifting away from the Movies forum lately for this very reason, for it seems any debate thread started about the movies degenerates into this general argument:"I'm a better Tolkien fan because..." "Oh yeah? Make your own movie then!" "Peter Jackson is an [insert tasteless comment here]." "No he's not! He is Tolkien reincarnated!" "Yes he is an [ITCH], and so are you!" "Well, so are you!" "And so's your mother!" Et cetera ad nauseam.This is really too bad, for then the discussion ceases to be about the movie or Tolkien at all.It is a shame that there should be two "camps". I consider myself to be floating somewhere in between, so I often find myself having little interest in a matter save to express my displeasure with the ascerbic tone of the posts. But it seems when the whole mood of a thread is spiraling downwards, anything that is said is taken in an offensive manner by the readers.I've been waiting for someone to start a topic like this for awhile. Thank you, Squatter, I couldn’t agree more.

Rimbaud

02-21-2003, 03:29 PM

A true Tolkien appreciator could never be fond of the films in question, nor support so weak an argument as the first clause in this sentence.

Liriodendron

02-21-2003, 03:55 PM

What's that, double talk?

Lush

02-21-2003, 04:22 PM

I don't want to come off as a hypocritical, crabby cow, but you have to consider the age of some of the posters on this board. Young people tend to get more impassioned about stuff like that, and sometimes it's hard to make them come off it.-*say I, at my ripe old age of 18*Though thank you, dear Squatter, for reminding us all to quit getting our panties in a twist at the expense of intelligent debate. P.S. Rimbaud, it's the weekend, most people's brains are running on half their capacity, you can't through out complexities like that at us and not expect us to start twitching.

Mister Underhill

02-21-2003, 04:34 PM

Must... not... twitch! It's just what he wants, so don't give him the satisfaction!It is sad that virtually every thread in Movies sooner or later ends up in some variation of Diamond18's outline, but I've long since made my peace with it. Now I only come down here when I feel like telling someone what an !@# they are.

Merri

02-21-2003, 05:12 PM

Amen to that, Squatter! I'm not a frequenter of the movie forums, I admit, but this is a request that I firmly believe should be followed throughout the Barrowdowns.

Eruwen

02-21-2003, 05:48 PM

I second those opinions, Squatter. It's about time some one finally said something about it. {Why didn't I think of it?} Anyway, I agree with all of you. The majority of the threads in this section have to do with what we think of the actors or the differences in the book and movie. I don't mind the second one as bad, but the fangirl thing is really aggrovating. {Oh, and might I add fanboy?} Yes, sadly some of the guys have drifted into the obsessive fandom here. So, are we finally going to get rid of all of this or what? How about some actual intelligent threads about the movie...other than "Why did Pj change the movie so much? He has no right to do that" kind of stuff.

Liriodendron

02-21-2003, 06:01 PM

When you try to have an intelligent thread about the movie ( merely because you like the movies, for whatever reason) you open yourself up to snide remarks from "the movie sucks" contingent! (sorry, we are supposed to get 10 more inches of snow this weekend, it is making me CRAZY! )

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

02-21-2003, 06:28 PM

I think you may have missed my point. The fault is on both sides. I refuse to have my thread complaining about feeble debate turn into a feeble debate.

Liriodendron

02-21-2003, 06:36 PM

OK....So what would work here?

Lush

02-21-2003, 06:45 PM

What would work here is for all of us to kiss and make up and go on to have meaningful conversations and stop being boring, redundant and reactionary (by saying this, I hope you realize that I will follow my own advice, as I too have been guilty in the past of sniping at other posters in the Movies forum, most notably the innocent lindil who did nothing to deserve my misplaced wrath).*EDIT* While I pledge to curb the sniping, I doubt I will be able to wean myself off my habit of poking fun at certain members' statements (not the members themselves though, as you may note).[ February 21, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ]

Liriodendron

02-21-2003, 06:52 PM

I will do that! No problem! Happy threads for all!!

Dain

02-21-2003, 07:28 PM

I thought that some of the discussions had good, interesting points in them, even though they got a bit heated (though it is hard to tell sometimes, to read tone into text). Things may get said over and over again, but usually by different people. Some people just want to chime in and express their view on the subject, which I can understand and accept, and then go back to reading the dialogue that is going back and forth. It's usually the one-time posts that disrupt the debate, but with subjects like these films, people like to get their feelings off the chest, and I think that's fine--I read, and get a sense of how many people thing this or that, then I go on. I think some of the discussions (esp. "An atrocious film...") became an attempt for each side to explain themselves to the other, and while that's not exactly intelligent debate, and there won't be many changed opinions, it is enlightening to read a thoughtfully constructed reason why somebody liked/hated the films that you hated/liked or whatever the subject was. At least, I thought so. If you don't like the level of the discussion, don't read it--I avoid subjects I know I won't like reading. I also wish the discussion to be a little lighter in tone, and less repetative, but with so many different people with opinions it isn't easy. Anyway, here's hoping for a kindler, gentler future...

Morgul Queen

02-22-2003, 12:27 AM

A wonderful idea but as the saying goes: Easier said than done.As much as we want to follow the rules we will usually get impassioned and start with the name calling and the hair pulling (though I still dont know whats going through PJ's head most of the time *thinks of the dead marshes *cringes*).

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

02-22-2003, 03:28 AM

Morgul Queen, I know exactly what you mean. Sometimes when I read some of the opinions expressed by my fellow forum members I get so angry that I want to hit something. When that happens I go away to Middle-Earth Mayhem for some Tolkien-related silliness, come back amused and happy, and then respond.

davem

02-22-2003, 04:02 AM

Squatter, As the one who set off the 'Attrocious movie' thread, can I just say I was in a bad mood that day & was mainly inspired to post because my main form of stress relief was not to hand (its a PJ doll which I stick pins in). I deliberatley went over the top to spark debate. I also felt that if I expressed an extreme position others might feel equally free to express their opinions. Don't take everything people say at face value.(Still think the movies are an insult to a great man's life work!)

Estelyn Telcontar

02-22-2003, 04:16 AM

I too have posted hastily and irascibly on (rare) occasions. However, all of us have the possibility of editing or deleting our own posts, and I have made use of that when I realized that my post was not appropriate in content and/or tone. I highly recommend the use of the virtual eraser! Better yet, type the post into the word processor, wait and do something else, then reread and post if it still sounds good.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie

02-22-2003, 08:00 PM

I'm sorry, I am really stretched for time so I can't go into depth in this post. WHen I get a chance I will.For right now I just want to talk about the two opposite groups that The Squatter of Amon Rûdh said. Yes, there are those two groups, but you didn't mention several other groups. I think Diamond18 was getting at this. Diamond18 part of the group in the middle, but there are other groups too. I consider part of my group as leaning towards, "those who hated the films and don't have anything good to say about them', but not exactly. Because I hate certains parts of the movies (a lot actually) but I do have some good things to say about it. I know I've got in heated arguments over the movies before, and they were all against the movie, but I do not hate the movie, and I do have good things to say about it. I don't think it's correct to categorize this into two groups, but I see what you mean.I'll respond to this further tomorrow. And I would greatly appreciate it if no one would turn this (accidently or on purpose) into a feeble debate, as it would defeat teh purpose of Squatter's thread. Just think before you post; we all should be doing a lot more of this, myself included.

Bekah

02-23-2003, 01:29 AM

I commend your efforts, Squatter, and I thank you for opening the thread. I agree with a lot of what you say. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> but with subjects like these films, people like to get their feelings off the chest, and I think that's fine--I read, and get a sense of how many people thing this or that, then I go on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>May I suggest that a thread be opened somewhere where people can do this, on the condition that they do not keep restating their views - especially if they are not willing to back them up with reasons - on other threads. At least, if they do not do it objectively, respecting other people's views.As Willie was saying, there aren't, as Squatter claims, merely two camps. Yes, there are those. There are also others, such as the ones in the middle, and the ones who lean towards one side or the other, but not far enough to topple over. And there is the other camp - the one which is not really interested in the movie, but merely in the actors playing in it. And for the 'nothings-is-wrong-with-the-movies' camp, there are two groups of that - the one that has not read the books and the ones who have. Although, on second thoughts, there are not very many in this latter camp, as there are many who have one quibble or another with the movie, even if they approve the rest.But anyway, this, although not Tolkien-related, is a good thread as it will encourage people to post intelligently on more LOTR-orientated subjects. I know I've not done so sometimes in the past and I'm sorry.Good night all.~ Elentari II[ February 26, 2003: Message edited by: Bekah ]

Gorwingel

02-23-2003, 03:08 AM

I think one of the reasons that the discussions are not as intelligent on the Movie forum than the other forms is that this is mostly made up of the fairly new posters (fangirl problems). People who have not been on the Barrow-Downs for very long, and are not used to the rules and bylaws of the forum. I bet most of the new people either go to Novices and Newcomers, Movies, or Middle Earth Mayhem first. I know I came to the Movie section first just because that was how I was introduced to Tolkien, and I tend to be able to have a larger part in the movie discussions than the ones in the Book section (I always feel kind of dumb in the book section, because the people who post there know a LOT! much more than me, but that is understandable). But I will remember, and whenever I post I will try to be on my best behavior

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

02-23-2003, 07:36 AM

Hail and well met, Bekah. We didn't get off to an amazingly good start, you and I, but I did like your post. As Willie was saying, there aren't, as Squatter claims, merely two camps.I didn't claim that. The words I used were "...people have been polarising into two camps." There are, of course, a number of gradations in between the two points of view.

Peace all, and thanks for supporting my own personal crusade.

Liriodendron

02-23-2003, 10:04 AM

This will sound funny, But when I first posted about liking the movie, dispite its flaws, I picked the wrong thread. I picked one called "Bad PJ" (or something like that). I immediatly got flamed for "thread invasion" (my words here) , and I understand. It was suggested I go to one of the "I love the movie" threads and carry on, or start a new thread. Now....The reason I didn't do that (and this is a selfish, feeble reason, I admit, no excuse really ) is that most of those threads seem to be comprised of young "fangirl/boy" types (which is fine for them!) and I couldn't relate. That wasn't where I was coming from. (being an old lady!) I was just gravitating to the basic age group and style of writing that suited me. I thought people would be gracious enough to let me "horn in"! (This is so funny in retrospect!) I picked the wrong time, wrong place...ha ha ha! No biggie. And Lindl graciously apologized and explained his flame. My error was probaby just newbie"ism" on my part. (How can I be such a newbie with over 200 posts, amazing!) I like the movies, yet I understand the complaints, It is rough to be disapointed if the movies really let you down about a story that means so much to you. I think disapointment causes more anger than practically any other emotion! Well, whatever, that's my lame excuse! [ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

Durelin

02-23-2003, 12:31 PM

I ain't kissing nobody! I have to say sorry for my eccentric behavior, though I didn't think I was that bad. But, sometimes my memory can be a bit hazy...Anyway, I think Willie should say sorry! He was mean to me... J.K

Lyra Greenleaf

02-23-2003, 05:03 PM

I've given up comparing the book and film, they're too different in the end. I mean, you can compare (say) the characterisations, but a book and a film? It's like comparing...a doughnut to a bag of chips! (I don't know where that analogy came from)I have to say i love both to bits- but in different ways for different things. presumably it's gonna be people who like books who prefer the book and vice-versa. there is just one thing i HATE in the film and thats Faramir. They ruined a brilliant character! And a whole flipping storyline! And what was Denethor doing in Osgilliath ("Take them to my father") anyway? (sorry, but i have to rant \bout this ocassionally)

Lily Bracegirdle

02-23-2003, 07:48 PM

Chips are *obviously* better than donuts and anyone who doesn't think so is an {I.T.C.H.}! Now you all can flame me for my spelling of "donuts".Actually, I've found a lot of really insightful and interesting discussion on this board and not so much random flaming, but I haven't been here very long (and missed out on the initial reactions to TTT).I think everyone here checked this thread because we already believe (or can easily accept) that polite discussion is preferable to rant-fests, so I'm not sure we're reaching those who don't. Estelyn's advice is great -- thank you! I guess all we can do is treat each other with respect and avoid threads where people don't. That or ask them to tone it down, but I've never been good at that.I also respectfully decline to kiss anyone -- after all, you don't know where I've been. Politely, -Lily

The Saucepan Man

02-23-2003, 08:46 PM

I have always been interested in (and invariably ended up contributing to) the threads concerning the relative merits of the films. This is probably because, when I first joined, I had just seen TTT for the first time and was trying to work out my own views about it.I have to say that I have often been impressed with the standard of debate on these threads (from both "camps"), and have enjoyed reading the many differing views on these films. Some very good arguments have been made both for and against the films. Yes, there are the occasional insults hurled and weak arguments deployed, but I find that the best way to approach these is to either ignore them or seek to test their underlying merit.Passionate argument is not a bad thing at all, for passionate beliefs can be expressed in the most thought-provoking terms. But, I do agree with the basic message of this thread that opinions should be expressed about the films themselves, not about those seeking to express their views about them, and that those involved in the debates should choose their words with care so as not to cause undue offence.That said, I sincerely hope that the debates, and the passion associated with them, continue.

Lush

02-23-2003, 11:01 PM

Kissing is sometimes an integral part of debate. After Christopher Hitchens debates his opponent, he ends with a kiss on the cheek. To show that there are obviously no hard feelings. Seriously, going back to Diamond's original example of the way these debates tend to degenerate, I think the key is keeping your wits about you and not getting personal (something that I myself shall attempt to do, of course).

Diamond18

02-24-2003, 12:10 AM

I do believe I've created a new cuss word. [ITCH], coming to a euphemism near you! I understood what Squatter was saying about the polarising, and what makes it rather unfortunate in my mind is, as Willie and other have mentioned after that, quite a few of us are not on an extreme end of things. However, it seems that when we get into the more passionate debates, we do "lose our wits" as Lush said, and perhaps forget about the other side of our own opinions. In other words, it might help us cool a bit if when we heat up, we stop to evaluate the other side of the particular debate in our mind.If someone says something derogatory about the movie (or I shoud say, when ) and you start to burn because you liked the movie, stop to think about what parts you didn't like, and how it made you feel. So then perhaps you won't jump down their throat, because you know how some other movie changes pushed your buttons, too. And then you'll better understand where they're coming from.And if someone defends the movie in a way that horrifies you or annoys you... Um... Think happy thoughts. Yes, like Squatter said, take a hiatus in Middle-earth Mayhem or something else that makes you laugh.<A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=21&t=000010" TARGET=_blank>Insert Shameless "Revenge of the Entish Bow" Promotion Here.</A>And above all, as has been said, don't get personal. This little Downer has done it before and it accomplishes nothing.

Bill Ferny

02-24-2003, 12:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Passionate argument is not a bad thing at all, for passionate beliefs can be expressed in the most thought-provoking terms.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>PanMan (I swear to gawd!) cut it out! That was exactly, albeit wording a bit different, what I was going to post. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Kissing is sometimes an integral part of debate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why am I not surprised this was written by Lush?There’s only one thing more annoying than unintelligent debate, irrelevant posts. So without further adieu I will make this post relevant. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Both groups are breaking all the rules of intelligent discussion: criticising people rather than their ideas, taking comments about the film personally and choosing their words apparently at random, with no thought to their possible interpretation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Criticism of one’s ideas is extremely close to criticism of the person. Few things are more dear and revealing of the thinker than his ideas. Ideas, even more than the eyes, are a window into the soul and mind. Criticism, though, is not necessarily negative criticism, and more often than not it is the way the criticism is taken that makes it negative.Which brings me to the second rule. Only if one takes criticism as an insult do we have a problem. I never try to criticize anyone’s ideas or opinions with the intention of insulting others, nor do I think that others criticize my ideas or opinions in order to insult me. How one takes and gives criticism is a sign of maturity. If you find yourself getting upset over someone’s criticism of your ideas, then maybe you need to check your maturity level.That’s not to say that I haven’t indirectly insulted someone on this forum due to an opinion. One time in particular, my opinion, which admittedly is an insulting opinion to many people, was indeed taken as insult. Still, its an opinion, one that I think is correct, that was not aimed specifically at anyone in particular on this forum, and was valid given the subject of the thread. Those who did take it personally, I don’t apologize, but I do respect your right to disagree with me with every fiber of your being. I fully expect you tell me I’m wrong, but I also expect to hear reasons why you think I’m wrong. Who knows? You might change my mind.I’ve been through ten years of higher education… believe me, I’ve been told that I was wrong so often that I’m amazed that I’m not the #1 flamed member on the forum. You guys are so much easier than my mates, profs, and students. That aside, being told you are wrong is a good thing. It gives you the chance to formulate and articulate your argument… and in doing so the chance to re-think your argument. Plenty of times in the re-thinking and re-researching I’ve discovered that I most certainly was wrong. On rarer occasions it forced me to harden and temper my position, making my argument more affective and convincing. The short of it is this… if you can’t take being told your wrong, don’t involve yourself in any debate.Which brings me to the last rule. When one takes something as insult, the warrior instincts kick in, the flight or fight hormones rage from gland, to brain, to typing fingers. Not necessarily a bad thing unless it makes you a blabbering idiot who can’t do anything but repeat in caps lock what you’ve already said with a few choice words thrown in for good measure. From my observations of many threads in the movies section, this is exactly what is going on. The above advice is excellent, namely to type a response on Word, go away, come back and read… and then DELETE it, because it stinks! Now go back and re-research your points and the other’s counter-points, and honestly try to make your argument more affective.I commend everyone here for your efforts, Squatter especially, to bring Tolkien discussion and debate to an honorable and chivalrous plane. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think one of the reasons that the discussions are not as intelligent on the Movie forum than the other forms is that this is mostly made up of the fairly new posters (fangirl problems).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe. However, I still reserve the right to engage in unintelligent debate if I so choose. I’m happy the forum moderators provide me with this freedom but at the same time keeping it reasonable. Part of the issue here is redundant posts and redundant threads which has already been discussed in the Barrow Downs section. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>…when I first posted about liking the movie, dispite its flaws, I picked the wrong thread. I picked one called "Bad PJ" (or something like that). I immediatly got flamed for "thread invasion" (my words here) , and I understand. It was suggested I go to one of the "I love the movie" threads and carry on, or start a new thread.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe its just me, but the suggestion to move to a different thread to express an opinion at variance with the original post or the majority of posters on the thread would have induced me to stay and spar with inspired vigor and zeal as long as my posts remained on subject. I would do that for no other reason than to challenge a bunch of minds long overdue for some challenging. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think disapointment causes more anger than practically any other emotion!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well taught. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>…whenever I post I will try to be on my best behavior.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good advice for everyone, I suppose. However, I urge everyone to bear with us human beings. We are prone to fall, and there are members (*cough*lush*cough*) who find it very hard to be on their best behavior due to their mischievous natures. Personally, I think the forum is better off for them.

Lush

02-24-2003, 12:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Kissing is sometimes an integral part of debate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Why am I not surprised this was written by Lush? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Lush just wants to make love, not war. Lush sees how professionals go about their debates, and Lush thinks we could learn something from them. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> However, I urge everyone to bear with us human beings. We are prone to fall, and there are members (*cough*lush*cough*) who find it very hard to be on their best behavior due to their mischievous natures. Personally, I think the forum is better off for them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'll be taking the above as a compliment on my flawed humanity. Bill, if you fear all of us suddenly turning into a bunch of spectacular bores in our attempt to restrain our passions, rest assured that it's not likely to happen. Anyway, I think there is a clear difference between being passionate and plain rude. Some of us can achieve the former without succumbing to the latter, and others should at least try learning to do so.

Bekah

02-24-2003, 01:17 AM

Thank you Squatter. I will take that as a compliment. Sorry for not rechecking your exact wording as it would have saved me contradicting something you never claimed. My apologies.I'm going to retire into the shadows now. I'll emerge if I have anything to add, and quietly read these interesting posts meanwhile.Lots of love to all.~ Elentari II

Bill Ferny

02-24-2003, 01:29 AM

Flawed? Please! Pristine, refreshing, honest, perfect in foible, wondrously alive, actually. Its praise well deserved, so don’t play modest. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Bill, if you fear all of us suddenly turning into a bunch of spectacular bores in our attempt to restrain our passions, rest assured that it's not likely to happen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Gee, thanks for pointing out how long winded I am. Seeing how easily you paraphrased it, I should have just PMed you a draft before posting. However, I am happy that my fears won’t be realized.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie

02-25-2003, 12:21 AM

Well, after thinking this over, I really don't have that much too add. One thing though is about people comeing into threads geared in one direction and attempting to turn it in another, usually in the opposite direction. I am specifically talking about threads in the movie forum. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> think Willie should say sorry! He was mean to me... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well,I won't apologize because you thought of me as mean to you because I wasn't trying to, you just took it the wrong way (or were you joking in your post). I'll only apologize for going into your thread (TTT movie lovers club or something). When I did that, I realized that it shouldn't be done. But Durelin, you did the same thing in the letter to PJ thread, so I think that you should apologize, which you just did (I think that's what you were apologizing for, am I right?). Posts that shift the direction of the discussion completely or ones that attempt to are useless, as they have nothing at all to add to the discussion and more importantly to the intended discussion of the thread-starter. If someone starts a thread to clearly discuss the cons of a movie, and someone comes in and just say's it rocks, then is that adding to the discussion? No. I have told people to leave threads because they are doing this. I am not sorry for doing that and I believe I have no reason to apologize for doing so. Actually the only thing that I am sorry for is the person who started the thread, since the argument in one or two threads got it closed. But, I do think that people should not come in and try to shift the discussion like I have said above. And if someone tells them to leave for that reason, then I think they should leave. They should apologize, but they don't have to. They could actually just leave or start their own thread. I don't think that starting a new thread is a bad idea, even if it is out of spite. Because it gives a place for those with contradicting views of that thread to go to. Anyways, I think that people should leave the thread when they don't have anything to add. Or better yet, they shouldn't even come in the first place if they know they are not helping at all.Well, that's it I guess. Although it would be nice if what we were aiming for would happen, but I honestly believe that, sadly, it never will. It will probably get better but there's always someone that will keep this from happening, intentional or not.

The Saucepan Man

02-25-2003, 10:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Posts that shift the direction of the discussion completely or ones that attempt to are useless, as they have nothing at all to add to the discussion and more importantly to the intended discussion of the thread-starter. If someone starts a thread to clearly discuss the cons of a movie, and someone comes in and just say's it rocks, then is that adding to the discussion? No. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We've disagreed on this point before, Willie, but it's an interesting one. It seems to me that, if a thread is started which indicates a particular view, then those who disagree with that view should be entitled to post on that thread to explain why they disagree with it, provided that they do so politely and are not simply trying to "shout down" something with which they do not agree.As one of those who is reasonably happy with the films, I would have no problem with someone posting on a thread praising them explaining why they do not like them. Indeed, provided reasons were given to back the opinion up, I would welcome it. I may be wrong on this, but it would seem strange to me on a forum such as this if one were entitled only to post on those topics with which one agrees.

Bekah

02-26-2003, 12:26 AM

I think what Willie was saying - correct me if I'm wrong - is that posts that give an opinion but do not back it up are ruining the thread. Some sensible threads get closed because posters on that thread try to shout down the other views of people without giving any reasons for doing so.Now I must go. My father seems to want the computer.Love,~ Elentari II

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie

02-26-2003, 02:44 AM

Yeah, we did The Saucepan Man. I can see what you mean, and it is a very valid opinion, however, I just have a different opinion on threads. The thing is that it is not up to me or you. I think I've made myself clear enough on what I think and said all I need to say on that matter, and hopefully Estelyn or another admin or moderater will make the rulse more specific, even if it goes against what I think. That way, people like us won't get into big arguments over something like that. So I'll just leave it be and whatever happens, happens.Bekah, yes, you're right, I was saying that, but I was also saying that people with very valid opinions that disagree with the discussion of the thread should not give their opinions in that thread since the thread is intended only to discuss a one-sided opinion of something. Here's a simple example (I hope): If there is a thread that is for discussing why people hate apples, then I am saying that no one should post an opinion (valid or not) on why they like apples. I just don't think it is right because it doesn't help the progress of the discussion. If you don't understand (or anyone else for that matter), then I'll explain it further.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

02-26-2003, 06:59 AM

If members do post their one opinion on more than one differing threads (as Willie is arguing this should not happen) then we are going to end up with a lot of similar threads.Take three threads with the titles "Movie was awful!" "Movie was great!" and "Movie was good but I didn't like this bit.....". Clearly all of these threads are going to be pretty much exactly the same in content if every Downer goes around pasting their never-changing opinion wherever he/she can.I've often been exasperated trying to share my opinion on the movie all over the Movies section. Then I realised that pretty much all I was accomplishing was upsetting other Downers. "Yeah Eomer, we know you liked the movie, would you please go away now!"Anyway, for all the problems that the moderators have regulating the forums (the ones pointed out above, fangirls, etc.), it really is a fantastic site for discussion. Take the good (and there's a lot of it) with the bad.[ February 26, 2003: Message edited by: Eomer of the Rohirrim ]

Bekah

02-26-2003, 01:09 PM

Maybe if you opened your own thread, Eomer? For people with varied opinions.I see what you mean, Willie. I agree with you, at least for some threads. For others, it actually helps to have different opinions. So I agree with you and I don't agree with you...If you want me to expand I'll do it later. Time's up. I've got to go to school.~ Elentari II

Lush

02-26-2003, 01:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If there is a thread that is for discussing why people hate apples, then I am saying that no one should post an opinion (valid or not) on why they like apples. I just don't think it is right because it doesn't help the progress of the discussion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So what you desire is a thread for slapping each other on the back, and nothing more? Where is the fun in that? Furthermore, where is the merit of such a discussion?I don't think the problem lies in disagreement, but in the way people choose to express it, as well as in the way others choose to react to it.

Durelin

02-26-2003, 01:48 PM

I did say i was sorry! And didn't you notice the "J.K." I was only kidding Willie. I'm very sorry, I was in a bad mood that one time...I'm sure you remember...Oh well, life goes on, mistakes you can do nothing about except not make them again. Or atleast do your best not to. Those are me wise words. Sorry, i'm trying to be smart here...

The Saucepan Man

02-26-2003, 05:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If members do post their one opinion on more than one differing threads (as Willie is arguing this should not happen) then we are going to end up with a lot of similar threads. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can see where your coming from, Eomer. At first I got fed up with posting the same opinion about the films on countless different threads. But that's more a product of the same topic being covered across different threads. And also, I found my own views changing as I read differing opinions, and so my own posts on the topic have evolved over time.Lush put it very well, I think: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> So what you desire is a thread for slapping each other on the back, and nothing more? Where is the fun in that? Furthermore, where is the merit of such a discussion? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Reading, challenging and sometimes accepting opposing views is an imprtant part of developing our own.As Lush said, it all comes down to the way we express our opinions.Bekah, I like your avatar. The Lady of Shallot by Waterhouse, isn't it? We have that picture hanging up in our dining room.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie

02-26-2003, 05:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> So what you desire is a thread for slapping each other on the back, and nothing more? Where is the fun in that? Furthermore, where is the merit of such a discussion? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It is not a mere thread of 'slapping each other on the back'. It is a thread where we discuss what we didn't like about the movie. We all generally agree that we didn't like parts of the movie, but just to talk about what those parts were helps ease the tension we have. By all of us agreeing we see that we are not the only ones angry and we see other parts that we didn't like that we ourselves didn't catch. It can be sort of like an anger-management thread. And we don't have to have a disagreement to have fun. Yes, disagreements are fun, but also, just discussing similar views can be fun. Lush, are you saying that you have to disagree to have fun in a conversation? I'm sure that you can find a discussion among your friends interesting even if you all agree with it. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I don't think the problem lies in disagreement, but in the way people choose to express it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, but it can actually be both.And, this is to everyone; you don't have to respond to every thread. It can be a hassle sometimes, but I think that you'd be better off replying in a general thread, or only replying to those which you think you can really add to the discussion. It is easier to respond to a general thread since you can widely express your views, but in a more specific thread, you are limited, and if you want to express your opinion in all those threads it will take a long time, and it might not even be worth it.

Darkside

02-26-2003, 11:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>We all generally agree that we didn't like parts of the movie, but just to talk about what those parts were helps ease the tension we have. By all of us agreeing we see that we are not the only ones angry and we see other parts that we didn't like that we ourselves didn't catch. It can be sort of like an anger-management thread. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have to say that I agree with Willie. I've been away from the Downs for a bit now, partly because my computer was being cranky and partly because I was. I am of the 'camp' that really, really, really didn't like TTT. Most of my friends(some nonreaders) did like the movie. I can't talk to them about it because they think I'm just being stupid. I started reading threads and responding because it was nice to chat with other people who had similar opinions to mine. It was nice not to be called 'stupid'. Then things here started getting out of hand. Nobody called anyone stupid, but people's opinions were no longer just their opinion. Debating is fun, as long as there are no personal attacks involved. Discussing the same side is also fun, almost therapeutic, like Willie said. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> you don't have to respond to every thread. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Again, I have to agree with Willie. If I see a thread is full of posts that I don't agree with, I don't respond. Why rain on their parade? That's how I feel about threads that are obviously geared towards those of us that didn't like the movie. Let us be miserable in peace I guess I'm at the edge of my soapbox. Sorry if it was too cranky. Chalk it up to PMS

Tar-Palantir

02-27-2003, 12:47 AM

My gift of Haiku to you, because I love you all so much.. Never blow hot air Using your brain is sexy Tolkien is for fun Stay on the topic Wandering mind be patient Sharpness will follow Cherish all goodness Judge only the intention Bad one forgotten Balrog is wingless Eru lives with Goldberry Dwarf wife is hairy

Estelyn Telcontar

02-27-2003, 08:21 AM

I’ve been following this thread with great interest, since it addresses basic issues concerning the nature of forum discussion. Now it’s time for a word from this forum’s moderator. Many of you have given good advice about posting; I will try to sum up those points and set down guidelines for discussion. Before I do that, here are some of my thoughts on control and ownership of threads.

A good deal of dissatisfaction is generated when the discussion does not take the direction some of its participants would like it to. Either the one who started it or one of the debaters who feels very strongly about issues involved complains about others who “do not belong here”, in their opinion. They make comments like, “If you don’t have anything good (or bad, as the case may be) to say, then leave!” They would like the administrators and moderators to set up clearer guidelines, limiting the scope of discussions.

So who has the right to control the discussion on a thread? Who owns it? The person who began the topic stated its theme, hopefully making it clear in the heading so that it could be easily identified. The problem often begins there – is it perfectly clear what the topic is? Then the discussion is open for all. Anyone who wants to can post. The topic starter no longer has control over the opinions expressed. That is forum discussion culture. If someone wants to post only to state personal opinions and receive applause, not opposition, they should be writing essays. The whole point of a discussion is learning from what others say, and that only happens when we listen to different opinions. As they say, “You ain’t learnin’ nothin’ while you’re talkin’”.

The only person who has any further control over the discussion then is the owner of the site, in our case, The Barrow-Wight. With the help of administrators and moderators whose judgement he trusts, he monitors to be sure the discussions stick to the rules of the site. Those rules are plainly stated in the Forum Policies and Forum FAQ threads. They concern the language used in writing, such as “no profanity” and “no chatspeak”; the contents, “This board is for Tolkien-related discussions” or “keep movie discussions on the Movies forum”; and the manners used in contact with other members, such as “no flaming”.

In the light of those rules, I would like to set up guidelines for discussion on the Barrow-Downs.

1. READ!

2. READ!

3. READ!

To 1: Read the first post so that you know what the topic is. If the topic does not interest or concern you, it’s better to move on than to post off-topic.

To 2: Read the subsequent posts! Make sure that you realize what others have already said before you jump in with a trite repetition that bores all who read it. If you do not take the time to read what others have written, why should they bother to read your posts?

To 3: Read what you have written! The more strongly you feel about a topic, the more important it is to write carefully, proof-reading before you post. Write in your word processing program; save, reread, spellcheck and then, if you’re sure that is what you want to say, post it. Reread after you post – if you notice later that something was not appropriate, edit it to remove parts that could be offensive, or are subject to being misunderstood.

4. Search before starting new topics! You are not likely to get enthused answers on a topic that has been repeated so often that no one is interested; besides, old threads are well worth reading to see what others have said on a theme. If you do start a new topic, state it so clearly that all who read know what it is about. Be sure the heading states the topic – too many “I have a question” or “What about Elves” threads get extremely confusing.

5. Post on-topic! Think about the topic before jumping into the discussion. Try to make your post interesting for others to read; if you take the time to look up information and/or quotes before just saying what you think, your contribution will be worthwhile. If you do give your opinion, try to state it well, giving reasons for your choice. “I think, therefore I post” should be everyone’s motto!

6. Give your opinion on the issue, not on the other persons involved in the debate. Personal insults are not allowed, and putting a winking smilie or “j/k” behind them doesn’t necessarily make them more palatable. In addition, please refrain from attacking Peter Jackson or the actors involved in the making of the movies. Give your opinion on what they have done rather than saying “kill PJ”.

7. Use correct spelling, capitalization, punctuation and sentence structure. You do want what you write to be read and understood by all – and a correctly-written post is much more likely to gain respect. We can best honour Tolkien by following his example and striving for excellence in language. Divide long posts into paragraphs for easier reading. Edit afterwards to make corrections if need be.

8. Accept the fact that others have different opinions. Read them and think about them – you just might learn something! If you don’t agree, just state your own opinion; you don’t have to correct everyone else’s or argue until they agree with you.

9. If you don’t like the direction a thread has taken, move on! There are so many others for you to enjoy.

10. And finally, don’t take yourself or the Barrow-Downs too seriously! Does it really matter if you win an argument? We are all here to have fun!

PS – 11. If there is trouble on a thread that hasn’t been noticed by the moderator or administrators, please PM one of them, giving the link to the thread and stating the nature of the problem. We all have real life jobs, families and other demands on our time, besides time zone differences and the need for a minimum of sleep, so we can’t be everywhere all the time. Please do realize that we too are here to enjoy ourselves!

mark12_30

02-27-2003, 10:33 AM

Esty, That was an extremely useful summary. It reminds me a bit of the guidelines posted in The Shire, Rohan, and Gondor ("Read This Before You Post"). The guidelines in the roleplaying forums did a lot to bring quality up. There is already Mister Underhill's "ANNOUNCEMENT - NEW BARROW-DOWNS FORUM POLICIES ". I think that an adaptation of your post above would be a worthy addendum / supplement to it. Regards, --mark12_30

Mister Underhill

02-28-2003, 11:52 AM

Great suggestions for posting in any section of the Downs, Esty – indeed, for posting anywhere on the net.

To kick it back to Squatter’s original topic, the importance of intelligent debate, I thought I’d chip in a few more points. Courteous, respectful discussion is a good thing. Discussion that is also intelligent is even better. One thing that bugs me about a lot of the discussion in the Movie forum is that people rarely seem inclined to go deeper than the most superficial sort of conversation. Posters come to the table with a general opinion about the movie (or an actor, or a line of dialogue, or whatever) and that’s it. And usually they’re not even willing to re-examine this broad generalization or take it to a more detailed level. In the words of the great Dirty Harry, “Opinions are like—”... well, I can’t really quote Harry the whole way; suffice to say everybody’s got one. It’s no great shakes to have an opinion. A well-considered opinion is another matter.

As a person who loves movies and the moviemaking process, there are lots of things I’d love to discuss about FotR, TTT, and the forthcoming RotK. In Books, we plumb for hidden shades of meaning in lines of dialogue, discuss the themes of the work, compare and contrast with other great pieces, admire particularly adept instances of Tolkien’s craftsmanship, and so on. Now granted, the movies don’t have anywhere near the breadth, depth, and complexity of Tolkien’s corpus, but we can relate the movies back to the books, and in the Extended Edition DVD, we have unprecedented access to the filmmakers’ process and intentions. It would be nice to see more Movie discussions move beyond a simple loved it/hated it opinion-fest and into more thoughtful consideration of specific aspects of the films.

Are you bringing your “A” game to Movies? You may want to check yourself against some of these guidelines:

BE SPECIFIC: There’s certainly room to get your loved it/hated it opinion off your chest, especially if you have no one in your RL to express yourself to. But have you been specific about what you loved, what you hated, what you thought could have been better, what you would have done differently, who you would have cast, how you would have adapted or performed a particular scene or moment? Just as in Books, if all you have to say is, “I loved it!” or “I hated it!”, then there’s not a lot to talk about.

BACK UP YOUR OPINION: Have you told us why you feel the way you do? Don’t just give an opinion, explain your reasons for feeling that way.

BE CREATIVE: If you didn’t like something and thought it could have been done better, tell us how. Have ideas on a director or actor who could have handled a particular scene or theme better? Who? What would the scene be like if that person had handled it?

Like all other areas of the Downs, Movies discussion will improve when posters push themselves to high standards of discourse.

Tar-Palantir

02-28-2003, 01:10 PM

wise witty debate many give all skill they have movie crowd youngerintelligent words hard in life is the finding high expectationjustly not common wonderful more rare of sight a treasure greatI was new here too ettiquette has been gifted polish required In other words, they won't all be great, so take it where you can get it. Besides, it's a true pain in the a$$ when everyone ignores the post you took an hour to write, trying to be tactful, thoughtful, intelligent and witty. Oh and I shouldn't forget form - perfect punctuation provides preferred perception. Or was that - proper punctuation proves persnickety perfection?Cheers, Tar

Mister Underhill

02-28-2003, 03:29 PM

intelligent words
hard in life is the finding
high expectation
In other words, they won't all be great... You may call me a dreamer, but I’m not the only one.

[ February 28, 2003: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie

03-01-2003, 02:59 AM

People should listen to what Estelyn Telcontar and Mister Underhill. Especially Estelyn Telcontar since she is the moderator. I hope many others are reading this thread even if they are not posting and I hope they are paying carefull attention to this. I also wish more people would read the rules before deciding to post. Although most are newbies and will eventualy get the hang of it.Sam: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> it's a true pain in the a$$ when everyone ignores the post you took an hour to write, trying to be tactful, thoughtful, intelligent and witty. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, I really hate that. I don't mind it if they don't respond to it, but what really eats me up is the following posts that consist of "i liked it" or "i hated it" and thats all. All they really do is nothing but overshadow your post. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> proper punctuation <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How hard can this be? It's so simple, and yet there are so many people who can't seem to do this. It makes the thread look sloppy and shows that people probably didn't put time or at least effort into there posts, which they should. And another thing is when people do stuff like use '3's instead of 'e's or '4's instead of 'a's. Your post will be much more respected if you keep it simple and proper. I know that I really hate reading posts like that because usually I don't find anything useful or interesting at all, but I still read it, as everyone should read each post. Respect goes a long way in life, and I'm sure it does at this site too.

davem

03-01-2003, 08:27 AM

I thought of starting a post entitled 'The importance of intelligent film making', but decided someone might think I was criticising Peter Jackson again.

HCIsland

04-21-2003, 08:46 AM

The thing that gets to me in this forum is how so many of the threads just degenerate into "I hate this" statements with supporting arguments being little more than "I loved this character/scene in the book and PJ should be linched for changing it." All this adds little to anyone's understanding of the films.The book forum is there to enhance peoples' understanding of the books. Shouldn't the movie forum be about doing the same? Disagree with stuff sure, goodness knows there's things I disagree with, but every thing in the films are done for reasons and I think we can better appreciate the difficulty of this task by trying to explore those reasons.H.C.

Bekah

04-21-2003, 08:56 AM

Well said, H.C.!!I'm still listening to all these fine views. I will keep them in mind as I post. It has been a while since I have last done so, at least intelligently, so I better get back into the knack of it then.I like having reasons for opinions. I find them much more interesting if there is a good back-up for them.Cheers,~ Elentari II

HerenIstarion

02-15-2005, 02:03 AM

Uppey uppey, with Dumbing it Down (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=11642&page=1&pp=40) thread in view :)

Eomer of the Rohirrim

02-15-2005, 11:08 AM

I'm not sure I understand Heren. I find the Dumbing it Down thread to be of good quality.

But thanks all the same for reminding me of this thread. A helpful read to all. :)

radagastly

02-15-2005, 01:26 PM

Joseph Campbell once said:

I don't believe in persuasion, I believe in being "caught!"

The fact is, it's difficult, maybe impossible, to persuade anyone to your side of the fence if they have strong feelings for their own side. On the other hand, if you post your own opinions on Tolkiens work or on P.J.'s work and if you show your own enthusiasm for those opinions by backing them up with facts, quotes etc., you can give yourself a real sense of superiority by ignoring the purely emotional responses to it, remaining above it, and moving on. It's unlikely you will sway anyone's opinion by sinking to their level and insulting them or their thoughts. You may need to respond to something someone said, in order to clarify things or provide more detail as to why you feel the way you do, and that's actually a good idea, but if you find yourself clicking the "Post a reply" button out of an emotional response to something you consider stupid or insulting, it's probably time to move on to another thread, at least for a while. Come back when you've cooled down, or don't come back at all.

And remember, thoughtful enthusiasm is your best defense against being insulted or feeling insulted in the first place.

That's my opinion. Any takers?

HerenIstarion

02-16-2005, 12:55 AM

I'm not sure I understand Heren. I find the Dumbing it Down thread to be of good quality.

I upped this one not because of DID's poor quality, but, quite the opposite - as a support for its good one. Reasoning - let people see we are not only able of having good debate, but also we care to have good debate, and it is not accidental that we indeed are having such

Besides, I simply like digging around and unearthing Sir Squatter of Amon Rûdh's threads. They tend to sprout new tentacles once brought back to the surface :D

Third reason - when I have limited time for posting myself, I entertain said self with archeology.

cheers

alatar

02-18-2005, 11:58 AM

Wow! Another great thread that should be required reading for Newbies, especially the post by Estelyn Telcontar. As with some of the other threads regarding 'expected vs observed' behavior, I see myself pre-humously (the opposite of post-humously) 'mentioned' in the various posts, having violated various rules, bylaws and etiquette - I'm actually fearful of posting again...

...
...

Okay, fear's gone. :)

At times it's hard to remove the passion from the writing, as it - the emotion - may be what is driving the responses in the first place, or at least it is for me. That emotion may be anger, pride, joy, awe, glee, etc. As stated many times before, more 'hot' emotions are linked to the movie threads as the movies may have touched people differently, being more emotive (visual, aural) than the books - especially if you've never read the latter.

For example, the movie soundtracks struck chords inside me (i.e. the 'Shire theme' makes me think of my kids) and so those emotions and others evoked by PJ are running subconsciously inside my head as I post to the movies threads. Also, being a Gandalf fan for 25+ years, then seeing a nearly 'spot on' walking/talking depiction of him, and finally accepting/liking this version, I got really torqued off when he was destaffed, and so I posted pretty hotly regarding the same. The readers of those posts may have wondered what all of the bluster was about, having posted very acceptable and logical arguments, not understanding why I couldn't accept those. They couldn't see all of the emotional baggage behind each keystroke, and this may have limited the amount of actual intelligent debate I was capable of delivering.

Having worked through this, I understand that others may still be so afflicted.

Another thing that squashes intelligent debate is boredom. Ever be sitting at your computer with nothing better to do, looking for a thread to jump in on? Whereas emotions may hinder intelligent debate, apathy regarding a thread topic may not be a plus either.

My biggest sin (I guess that I'm confessing here) is having too much fun. Yes, there are more serious and in depth threads, but not all are, and so not all posts are written with the same amount of forethought, care or with the same tone. Sometimes I just can't help but post to 'poke fun' at a debate (not poster), especially when I'm not committed to either 'camp' nor feel that the eternal fate of the spirit of Tolkien rests on my words. At times ripostes in the same vane have brightened my day, and made me realize that it's just not that life-threatening whether Elves have pointed ears or not. Crafting/reading a witty (at least to me) reply makes the topic that much more interesting.

Other posts leave me in awe, being both well-written and well thought out. I typically just read those threads as I think that I can't offer much more than assent or dissent - then I run back to the 'newbie' threads with my tail between my legs.

Lastly, there are daily reminders that life goes on, sometimes poorly, sometimes not at all. This forum is a place for me to forget about that all for a while.

Anyway, "me too."