What disappointed you about The Two Towers?

[Frodo Brandybuck]

Was anyone else disappointed by the way the created a romance between Eowyn and Aragorn? In the book the relationship was completely 1 sided. Also the way the turned Faramir into a bad guy as if he wanted the ring?

[kittiewhirl1677]

Well, I don't know. I didn't really care much about the romance between Eowyn and Aragorn, because it wasn't really a "romance". Since Eowyn was that one that was in love with Aragron, not vice versa. I was much more dissapointed about how they made what seemed like constant romance with Arwen and Aragorn, though.<P>In the books, they have nothing like that. Well, some parts are okay, but they have too much of them. I think there's some junkey romantic scenes between the two that they could have left out.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Hello, Mr. Frodo Brandybuck, welcome to the Downs.<P>I didn't feel there was a need to create a 'love triangle' where none existed between Aragorn, Eowyn and Arwen. I think Tolkien's version was much more realistic and compelling, where Eowyn developed a crush on Aragorn despite knowing virtually nothing about him. <P>As for changing the personality of Faramir, I have little doubt that this is something that would have upset Tolkien, considering he said that of the characters in the LotR, Faramir was the one most like himself. (Heh, but based on his comments and letters he sounds more like Bilbo Baggins.) In any case, he loved the character Faramir, and I feel changing Faramir will also have to distort and make cartoonish the rather complex character of Denethor. <P>I am increasingly disappointed with Elijah Wood's limp characterisation of Frodo. Elijah has the charisma to carry the role, but he admitted he did not actually finish reading the Lord of the Rings. In the second movie that becomes quite clear he did not read the 'Two Towers.' The nuances of the relationship between Sam, Frodo and Gollum/Smeagol do not come out in the screenplay, and are completely missed by Elijah. <P>Part of the drama of the 'Return of the King' is in how the very strong Frodo breaks at the last minute and claims the ring. Because of the 'weak' Frodo Elijah has protrayed, this is not going to come as much of a surprise. I'm afraid Elijah is just too young to pull off the role, not in his appearance, but in his maturity as an actor. Unfortunately, this messes up the entire premise of the third book. <P>I believe Peter Jackson has spent more time on Aragorn than Frodo due to the fact that Viggo Mortensen is turning in a stellar performance. A director directs, but a <I>good</I> director takes advantage of a good performer when he has him. <P>- Maril

[Faye Took]

The thing that disapointed me the most was when Faramir took the Ring and Frodo and Sam to Gondor. Jackson really changed the books. Also when the elves came to Helm's Deep. I didn't really mind about the Eowyn/Aragorn romance. I was angry about how Aragorn tried to give Arwen her pendant back.

[Beruthiel]

I didn't mind the whole Eowyn/Aragorn romance, but Arwen was just plain annoying.<P>Anyway the thing that REALLY got me was that then ents didn't want to go to Isengard and Pippin had to TRICK them into doing it. Its just so wrong! The ents look bad enough already(I know some people love they way the looked but I just really thought they were badly done) and the way the ents have to be tricked makes them seem to be stupid creatures that don't know what to do without the guidence of a little hobbit, which ofcourse is absolutely wrong.

[Meela]

I loved the romance between Aragorn and Eowyn, and all the Arwen/Aragorn scenes, such as the dream sequence. The elves were a superb bonus, and Faramir was an excellent character.

[Failivrin]

i was disappointed by most of it apart from gollum and helm's deep so i wont even bother to describe it. i dont think peter jacksons representation is a good one. FOTR was good, but not TTT. <P>has anyone read the letters of JRR Tolkien? well at about letter 216 or something i think, theres an enraged letter about all the things he hated in a film script and it is my personal belief that PJ modelled his film on all of the things in the letter

[HCIsland]

I thought the relationship between Eowyn and Aragorn was handled well. I know Aragorn didn't express anything towards Eowyn in the book but it worked well with the change in his character of having him unsure about whether to ask Arwen to give up his mortality. There wasn't a hint of this in the book, but I think it did a lot to humanize his character. Anyone who truly loved someone would have reservations about watching them give up what she is giving up.<P>As for the letters from Tolkien, I highly doubt PJ has even read the one to which you are referring. I suspect Tolkien knew a lot about romantic literature and myth and very little about making movies. I doubt he would have approved of any movie script that made the changes that were necessary.<P>H.C.

[Gorwingel]

The thing that dissapointed me the most was the portrayal of Faramir. This really made me mad, and I did not like it, because it was <B>Extremely</B> different from the book. It did add a tad bit more drama, but I think if they wanted to add more drama to the film they could have done it in different ways. In the book he was not exactly a nice charater, but the tension between him and the hobbits was not like it was in the movie, it only lasted a very short time.

[Faramir Fan]

Yup "evil Faramir" tops my list...

[Frodo Brandybuck]

Thanks 4 the welcome! So I guess everyone pretty much hated the Faramir thing and loved the romance?

[Frodo Brandybuck]

p.s. can someone help figure out how to put a picture on my profile?

[Meela]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> So I guess everyone pretty much hated the Faramir thing <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Does that mean that I remain the sole being on this planet who loves movie Faramir and his character?

[Peri]

I wouldn't be surprised if you were the only one, Meela. PJ did a terrible job on Faramir. He's NOT supposed to be evil. He was supposed to be stronger than Boromir; he should have been able to resist the temptation of the ring. They pretty much turned Faramir into his brother. I was really disappointed by Faramir.

[The Only Real Estel]

That they didn't stay true to the books very much. I don't think that they have to stick entirely to the books, but a little more close would've been nice. Also I was kinda mad when they didn't put Shelob in. Come to think of it, I didn't really like their mis-portral of Farimir either! But I still liked it. <p>[ April 23, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[Daisy Brambleburr]

I don't want to slate the movie too much, because it must have been a very hard job to take on, but seeing as you asked...<P>The Nazgul were kind of dissapointing. they looked more like worms to me.<P>The Treebeard bits were too short, sort of stupid and didn't make much sense. However, PJ has said there will be more of them in the extended DVD.<P>Fangorn forest looked way too fake for my liking.<P>The thing that annoyed and dissapointed me the most was the whole Faramir thing. PJ said he changed his character so it would make more sense, because if Boromir was tempted by the Ring then Faramir would be as well. I don't agree with this, because Faramir is a very different character from Boromir. I am apprehensive as to how Faramir will look in ROTK, for he is one of my favorite characters. <P>Also, the part about taking the Ring to Osgiliath was stupid because now Sauron knows exactly where the Ring is because the Nazgul saw it! I think that was a bit of a stupid mistake, because there isn't really anything to stop him going and getting it now he knows where it is. All secrecy has flown out of the window (for he thought that the Rohirrim had the Ring after they defeated the uruk hai who had Merry and Pippin.)<P>BUT I still liked the movie, not as much as FoTR, and definatley not as much as the books. Helms Deep was well done, and Gollum was good too. Not perfect but good all the same. <P>What do you think about the Ring/Osgiliath/Nazgul thing?

[Meela]

Osgiliath was my favourite part of both movies so far. It was a brilliant addition.

[Frodo Brandybuck]

<I><B>ArialOsgiliath was good but I HATED how they turned Faramir into Boromir! HATED IT! </B></I>

[Frodo Brandybuck]

<I><B>Osgiliath was good but I HATED how they turned Faramir into Boromir! HATED IT! </B></I>

[The Only Real Estel]

I greatly disliked the whole nazgul/frodo thing in Osgiliath. It was just a little to wierd, Frodo offers the ring to the Black Rider (who doesn't call all his fellow minions to speed to Osgiliath to attack the ring-bearer!?)? I would've rather have them cut out Osgilath, make Farimir normal, then put in Shelob (the extraction of the above scences would leave enough time...). That's just my opinion though...I'm not dissing yours.

[kittiewhirl1677]

Yes, I greatly disliked the part with Faramir. When I read what he was really like in the book. <P>You see, I was only in the middle of TTT when I saw the movie, and I had no idea what Faramir was like. Knowing that he was Boromir's brother, I suspected that he was a lot like Boromir. <P>So when I saw the movie the first time I really liked it and it all made sense. But then, afterwards, I finished TTT and saw the movie a few times again, and I realized what a monster they had turned Faramir into.

[Carlas]

I have to say that I liked the movie, but Gollum was not what I expected him to be. Though people may not agree I found him a bit...inane. Not the entire time though, it's just thet they seemed to have added a bit too much humour, trying to make parts funny and messing the character a bit. But it was only a slight problem. Otherwise, I loved Gollum! <P>

[Tar-Palantir]

I think movie Faramir should not be viewed as 'evil'. Try to envision him as simply being <I>more loyal to Gondor</I> and Denethor than in the book. Not only is it true, it is easier to swallow that way.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Not the entire time though, it's just thet they seemed to have added a bit too much humour, trying to make parts funny and messing the character a bit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I wonder what scene you are too. I know I found him just a smidge too cute in his first schizophrenic conversation. I don't think they should have gone for a laugh here, though I thought the humour in scenes like his conversation with Sam about taters or his "juicy sweeeeet" song completely appropriate.<P>H.C.

[Estanesse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What disappointed you about The Two Towers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think the whole movie is one big disappointment. <BR>I have seen the TTT 5 times now and still I think it’s from the beginning till the end one big mess. All those changes and cuts make me feel like I’m watching a trailer of a bad movie.

[Anardil]

The part which I liked the least was the scene where Frodo offers the Ring to the Nazgul (whaaa...?). It seems to me that Frodo and Sam shouldn't have been able to get a single mile further after that.<P>I didn't like it that Faramir decided to take Frodo and Sam to Gondor. They changed his character considerably.<P>I thought Frodo was too much of a wimp.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, I for one can live with the Faramir portrayal. Yes, he is different in character from the books, but evil? Surely not. As Tar Palantir said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think movie Faramir should not be viewed as 'evil'. Try to envision him as simply being more loyal to Gondor and Denethor than in the book. Not only is it true, it is easier to swallow that way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>For all he knows when he comes across Frodo and Sam, they could be spies from Mordor. He is a Captain of Gondor and the son of the Steward. It is his duty to defend the borders of his country. Moreover, it has been decreed that anyone letting potential spies go will forfeit their life. And, to top that, he also knows that his father won't exactly be chuffed if he learns that he let the One Ring slip through his hands and head off to Mordor in the hands of two Hobbits. In film terms (and without much of the wonderful dialogue between Frodo, Sam and Faramir at Henneth Annun which it would, alas, have been impractical to include) it makes perfect sense for him to act the way he does. And yet, despite all, he does in the end let Frodo and Sam go, thus delineating his character from that of his brother. In my view, this sets things up nicely for the interaction between Faramir and his father in Rotk.<P>And I can live with Osgiliath too (particularly as the extended DVD will explain how Frodo and Sam make it back to the other side of the Anduin). Except, of course, the scene where Frodo tries to give the Ring to the Nazgul. That just doesn't work for me. <P>Other disappointments?<P>Well, the major one for me was those silly Lemming-Hyena hybrids . Don't get me wrong, I was tremendously excited when I saw that there would be Warg-riders in the film. But the Wargs themselves were a great disappointment. And I could have done without Aragorn being dragged over the cliff and ending up being nuzzled by his horse.<P>Elijah Wood rolling his eyes up for the umpteenth time. I agree with Maril that the sense, in RotK, of Frodo gradually falling apart as they near Mount Doom, and the power of his finally succumbing to the Ring, will largely be lost given the state that he has already fallen to by the end of TTT.<P>Not enough Treebeard or Ents generally. Treebeard and co being tricked into attacking Isengard. And no Huorns at Helm's Deep (although, surprisingly it seems that they may be in the extended DVD - difficult to see how the timing will work on this).<P>One Dwarf-tossing joke too many.<P>One short Dwarf joke too many.<P>Legolas shield-surfing.<P>Well, I think that's all. But, overall, I can forgive these diappointments for the great bits in the films. And there are many. And for the wonderful visualisation (the Black Gate, Edoras, Helm's Deep). And, of course, for the fanatastic work of Andy Serkis and WETA in bringing Gollum to life.

[Tar-Palantir]

Yes, the black gate was awesome.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Legolas shield-surfing <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>...and shooting his bow at the same time! Do we have a superhero in our midst? Perhaps it was to sell more Legolas figurines to his adoring fans... maybe...

[Nurumaiel]

Tar-Palantir and The Saucepan Man,<P>What you said makes complete and total sense and I agree with it. <P>I personally saw Faramir in the movie believing that his duty was to his father: therefore bringing the Ring to his father. Yet he then realized his duty was not to his father in this case, that his duty was to Middle-Earth. If he didn't release the Halflings, Middle-Earth would be enslaved by Sauron and he, Faramir, would have failed.<P>Meela, you're not alone on this issue.<P>Osgiliath.... *muses for awhile, then sighs* I couldn't enjoy it, though it wasn't so bad that I had to close my eyes or leave the theater. At least my worst fears were relieved when on second viewing I saw that Frodo wasn't actually holding up the Ring for the Nazgul to take.<P>The Ents disappointed me. I was looking forward to their great cry and their song as they rushed to Isengard. "We have decided..." *sighs* Yes, I know what you decided, and I disagree. Why, why, why?

[Morgul Queen]

Main thing with me is the reduction of good characters into comic relief.<BR>By the Fangorn bit Merry and Pippin have matured alot, although pippin still has his occasional moments on the whole they have grown up extremely fast so their little comic relief thing dosent seem quite right to me but I suspect I am alone on that one.<P>Gimli does NOT suit being comic relief, somehow I feel that the real Gimli would attack anyone who made him the butt of a 'short joke'.<P>Osgiliath(sp?) is also a disaster because it is stated in FotR (movie) that the wraiths "feel at all times the presence of the ring" so by the point Frodo is on top of the rubble all 9 should rightfully be swarming around him.<P>Faramir also holds no water in being redeemed and able to let the ring go. If we remember the first movie, Bilbo was the first person to give up the ring of his free will and after not seeing or hearing of it for 18 years has a little insane moment of ring lust (for lack of better name as of this moment) and Gollum still wants it after 80 years. Bilbo had extreme diffuculty in giving it up and gollum lost it yet "faramir" faced no such hardships or difficultys in the losing of it.<P>Gollum seems somehow overly happy and before you all start pointing your barrow-blades at me because he does seem to cheer up slightly in the book and i agree that he is very (over) eager to please in both movie and book, he does not strike me as a happy and cheerful person, hobbit-thing, whatever-you-want-to-call-him. basically what I am trying to say is the elements of his personality(s) are seperated and some are enlarged while others are shrunk leaving us with a gollum *clone* NOT the real thing!<P>WOW, my longest post yet (to my memory, feel free to correct me if need be) free easter eggs for everyone!!! <p>[ April 26, 2003: Message edited by: Morgul Queen ]

[Faramir Fan]

I am sort of with you Meela...cause I like Faramir in the book and visually as well - lol.<P>I have heard rumours that PJ will attempt to "redeem" Faramir's charachter in the extended version of TTT, like he did with the Galadriel gift giving scene in FOTR. I guess I holding out until November to make my final decision.<P>What concerns me is that in the ROTK, we are to feel sympathy for Faramir and his situation and to be happy that he finds happiness in the end. I worry that by painting him as such a bad guy, the mainstream audience will not feel that way, or even worse that PJ completely minimizes the Faramir character in the third movie in order to pump up Aragorn more and if that happens....<P>Nope not going there...not yet...

[katherine712]

I too was dissapointed with the Two Towers...at least at first. I did not like how the movie was so different from the book that I (who can practically receite the book from memory) become confused as to why Faramir was not helping the hobbits, and where they were going. Now, months later, I can appreciate both the books and the movie separately, each for their own ups and downs. It was somewhat interesting to see a different take on the story I know so well.

[Magician of Nathar]

Things that turned my stomach in TTT.<P>1. Gollum's line of "But master is my friend!" with that sympathetic innocent expression. Gollum is a well done character, BUT that part is just overdone. I mean come on! What is this? Disney? <P>2. Frodo. No offense to Elijah Wood, but a boy like him just can't pull it off. The Frodo he portrayed is unstable, fearful, miserable, and on the verge of going nuts. The characterization just doesn't fit. But sense Frodo is my least favourite character in the first place, it put me out of misery by seeing almost nothing of him.<P>Things that aren't quite right but I liked nontheless.<P>1. Gimli. Since when did the grumpy dwarf start cracking jokes? But it was funny. It made dwarves much more likable.<P>2. Eowyn. Since when did the ice queen turned to a sunshine girl? Not that the sunshine girl is not appealing or anything. She is so cute and innocent, yet very capable in the hour of need. Very steady and realistic.<P>3. Haldir's death. Understatement of the year: an elf's death is the hardest thing to witness. But I understand PJ's need for tragedy.<P>4. Faramir. Well, it's different from the book. But hey! We need melodrama and expense, and that did well enough.<P>5. Aragorn. Mortensen pulled off a wonderful performance. However, every proud and aragant fibre are pulled out of the character. Now our Aragorn is so human. I loved it anyway, but I still have to wonder: how are they going to establish him as a King? Guess I will wait and see.

[Noxomanus]

Doesn't anyone understand the Ring was taken to Osgiliath and shown to the Nazgul because the palantir-part of Aragorn is removed from the third movie?This is PJ's way of getting Saurons attention towards Minas Tirith were Faramir goes to.So instead of him seeing Isildurs heir going to MT,we have Faramir who,according to Sauron,takes the Ring with him.

[Faramir Fan]

Interesting plot development, if that in fact is the case, but then it would bring up another problem to deal with in the story...why then does Gandalf take Pippen with him to Gondor and leave Merry behind.<P>I know for a fact that this is the case because when I had to pleasure of meeting Billy Boyd I told him that I couldn't wait to see him in his Gondorian uniform and he laughed saying that he and Dom, argued quite a bit about who had the better uniform, Gondor or Rohan...

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Doesn't anyone understand the Ring was taken to Osgiliath and shown to the Nazgul because the palantir-part of Aragorn is removed from the third movie? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Is it? I had heard that the Pippin-Palantir sequence would be in the film, in which case it would be strange not also to include Aragorn's moment with it. I would have thought that this would be something that Jackson would relish doing (like the Paths of the Dead) and it would hardly take a great chunk out of the overall running time.

[Cuthalion]

Where to begin.....<P> Hated the whole Warg-riders/Aragorn-over-the-cliff-Arwen-psychicly-motivates-horse-to-save-him thing.<P> Faramir's nobility was rather easily tossed aside.<P> Frodo/Sam at Osgiliath was beyond belief, all I could do was sit and stare in shock.<P> Kept muttering "Go for it!" every time Aragorn's eyes met Eowyn's.<P> And Haldir's death and the embarrassing nod to popularity that was the Dwarf-toss nearly caused me to suffer apoplexy.<P> *Takes a drink, takes a deep breath*

[Noxomanus]

I definately think this Aragorn/Arwen romance should have been completely left out of the movies. It slows the story down,it's boring,doesn't affect the story in the least,takes time that had better been put into Ents,Gandalf,Gollum or something and most of all it isn't in the books.<BR>A movie like this doesn't need a romantic story, the Ring should be destroyed and not Arwen letting a horse lick Aragorn who wasn't supposed to fall of that cliff at all! It made me very

[The Only Real Estel]

I thought the Wargs vs. Rohan fight was acceptable, but the cliff-falling incident wasn't. The day-dreaming incident lasted to long, and I didn't really appreciate it that much, they already showed the Aragorn-Arwen realationship enough in Fotr, I thought. Legolas isn't a super-hero, but he's an excellent shot with the bow & arrow, I don't find it to unrealistic that he could shoot and slide at the same time. Besides, Legolas is always doing cool ( or-out-of-place ) stuff with his weapons. I thought they did a great job on Gollum actually (most of the time)! Horse saving Aragorn was just to stinking lame. Farimir doesn't equel evil, he was just to loyal, or to greedy. Gimli was WAY to humuorous, a little humour is fine, but Gimli barely does a scene that isn't supposed to be funny (or at least it seems that way)! Frodo was well done in Fotr, but he's cracking to soon! HE shouldn't be in the state he's in until late in Rotk! The Ents should've decided to go to war on Isengard at the Entmoot, and altough hurling rocks at Isengard isn't booktual, I'll let that pass, it wasn't to lame (except a great majority of the ents, or maybe all of them, appear to be left-handed. Through some righties in there, PJ! )<BR>Someimes, early on in the movie, the changed Gollum sounds to much like Jar-Jar Binks to me! Well, I'm out of time, if I have anything more to say, believe me, my big mouth will disclose it soon! But I'll give PJ the shield-surfing, after all, it just seems to add to Legolas' agility and 'light-footedness' for me. Thanks for being patient with me while I give my LONG take on things. <p>[ April 28, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[Mitheithel]

Here are the list of things that disappointed me in TTT:<BR>1. Faramir turned to evil; in fact, he was more resistant to the Ring than Boromir!<BR>2. Eowyn-Arwen-Aragorn love triangle. Some little remarks have been given in books also, but this wasn`t love between Eowyn and Aragorn!<BR>3. The whole film was ripped to pieces. Just when a battle begun at Helm`s Deep, the camera suddenly moved to Frodo and Sam captured by "evil" Faramir!

[BlackKnight12]

To me that got me was that Hildar died he was not even really supposed to be there thats what i did not really like it was all ok besides that since i mean u know. I was about to go offi n elvish when they killed him. i speak some elvish. but everyone should know this part though <P>Elen sila lumenn omentilmo mellon en amin.Lle naa belegohtar. Quel Fara. Aa' lasser en lle coia orn n' omenta gurtha. Aa'menle nauve calen ar' ta hwestae' alequenle.Vanya sulie.<P>well u guys are cool on this forum got to go talk to u guys later.

[The Only Real Estel]

I didn't mind to badly that Haldir died. He never really came into the books in a large part after Lothlorien, and it's a good idea to have at least 1 main or semi-main character die in each movie (in any movie really); or else it seems like the director is protecting his characters to much. It'll also gives the audience the idea that if your a main or semi-main character, your pretty much invinsible (not good to portray). Plus, like I said, since Haldir doesn't play any more main parts after Lothlorien, he's a 'expendable character', if he has to be. <p>[ May 01, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[Estella Brandybuck]

I'll be honest and say that Faramir's characterization broke my heart. . . I understand why the changes were made, but that doesn't mean I have to like them. But I think David Wenham will do a great job with him in RotK, so I'm not terribly depressed about it. <P>And Arwen. . . *sigh* Yes, we understand. She loves Aragorn, Aragorn loves her, and she'd give up her mortality for him. We've covered this already. Y'know, if they'd just left out Fun Time with the Evenstar, there would have been more time for the Ents, or maybe enough time to put in Shelob.<P>Now don't get me wrong, I loved the action sequences, but was the scene with Aragorn falling off a cliff <I>really</I> necessary? I don't mind deviations from the books as long as they serve some purpose. The changing of Faramir's character served a purpose (one I wasn't fond of, but that's beside the point ). Aragorn's "death" did not.<P>And a lot of people I've talked to absolutely hated the Elves arriving at Helm's Deep. I'm a bit torn on that; someone I know said that one of the things she loved about Helm's Deep was that it showed Men fighting on their own without the aid of the Elves, and I understand where she's coming from. But I also know that it could have turned out a lot worse, and I'm just thankful that the Elves didn't end up saving the day or something.<P>The Ents sort of disappointed me as well, but this was also because there was so little of them (and again, if Arwen had just <I>left us alone</I>, this wouldn't have been a problem). However, I really loved seeing them finally march to Isengard. Would've been nice to hear their "war song" from the book, but alas. . . <P>Despite all of these issues, I found TTT to be a very enjoyable movie. Keep in mind - it could have been <I>much</I> worse.

[The Only Real Estel]

It's not just you...Aragorn's cliff falling scene wasn't needed in the least. I still think you can leave out Farimir taking the hobbits to Osgiliath, and have enough time for Frodo & Sam's incounter with Shelob. taht way you just substitute action for action ( and Frodo & Sam are still on the recieving end of it, so it wouldn't make them more 'boring'.). But, as you said, it could've been worse.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"Does that mean that I remain the sole being on this planet who loves movie Faramir and his character."<P> No Meela you are not alone. Where this 'evil Faramir' notion comes from I just don't know. Movie Faramir is distrustful of the Hobbits, (with good reason) and determined to find out what they are up to. Not only is Movie Frodo far less forthcoming than his Book alter-ego, he makes the serious mistake of telling Faramir an out and out lie. I can't think of anything more likely to prejudice any honorable Dunedain against the Hobbits.<P> Movie Faramir is *CLEARLY* no more tempted by the Ring than his Book alter-ego. Note that he doesn't take it from Frodo and is quite ready to send it and the Hobbits to his father.<P> Faramir is sending the Ring to Minas Tirith because he thinks it's the right thing to do. He thinks the Ring - and the Hobbits - will be safe in the White City and possession of the Ring will save Gondor, (Book Denethor says something like this to Gandalf). <P> Yet in his heart Faramir knows all along he's making a mistake. It just takes him a while to accept that so counter-intuitive a course of action could be the right one. Not to mention the fact he's going to **** off his father and commit a capital crime by letting them go!<P> As for the Arwen issue, are those protesting her prominence in the movie seriously suggesting she just appear out of nowhere in ROTK and marry Aragorn with nary a word of explanation like she does in the book? I don't think so!<P> In fact Arwen's invisibility is one of the flaws of the book. I mean *one* glimpse of her at Rivendell and nary a hint she and Aragorn are anything but good friends until all of a sudden she rides in to become queen?? I don't know about anybody else but personally I despised Arwen for *years* because she 'stole' Aragorn from Eowyn. <P> Tucking 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' into the appendices does *nothing* to repair the original dramatic error. Or for that matter to explain Aragorn's passion for a woman who seems to be nothing but a pretty face. I mean talk about *passive*! Her looks are apparently *all* Arwen has in common with the brave and spirited Luthien, at least if Barahir can be believed.<p>[ May 01, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Lhunardawen]

i really hate what they did to faramir. he was supposed to be one of my fave characters of the book. he said that he would not take the ring though it lay by the highway. they just did the exact opposite in the movie.

[Lhunardawen]

i thought the last alliance of elves and men took place near the end of the second age. that was the LAST. how come there was another "last alliance" in the battle of helm's deep? and who is haldir to command all those elven-lords (assuming) in the movie? he is just a mere elf from lorien, though he be cute.

[The Only Real Estel]

He was one of the more important elves, I'd guess Elrond appointed him to Captain or something. But why do you think PJ made it look like Arwen is goind over seas (Valinor)?Please tell me he won't send her over & back!

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Haldir tells Aragorn and Theoden he and his men are there *because* of the alliance concluded with Elendil back at the end of the Second Age. In other words this is not a 'new' alliance but an honoring of the old.<P> As for who Haldir is - I gather in the movie he is the Captain of the March Wardens of Lorien and so an appropriate person to entrust with the expeditionary force.<p>[ May 02, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Estella Brandybuck]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As for the Arwen issue, are those protesting her prominence in the movie seriously suggesting she just appear out of nowhere in ROTK and marry Aragorn with nary a word of explanation like she does in the book? I don't think so!<P>In fact Arwen's invisibility is one of the flaws of the book. I mean *one* glimpse of her at Rivendell and nary a hint she and Aragorn are anything but good friends until all of a sudden she rides in to become queen?? I don't know about anybody else but personally I despised Arwen for *years* because she 'stole' Aragorn from Eowyn. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a bad idea to give Arwen a more prominent role in the movies, I just don't like how they've put so much of her in. I enjoyed her in FotR, but then again, I hadn't read the books when I first saw it, so I didn't know hardly anything about what I was seeing. And I understand why they put her in TTT even though she wasn't mentioned in the book at all - the regular movie-goers would have probably been very confused with the disappearance of all these characters. But I felt that it took up too much space when the film could have shown more of what actually happened. It was just something that I personally wasn't fond of. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Movie Faramir is distrustful of the Hobbits, (with good reason) and determined to find out what they are up to. Not only is Movie Frodo far less forthcoming than his Book alter-ego, he makes the serious mistake of telling Faramir an out and out lie. I can't think of anything more likely to prejudice any honorable Dunedain against the Hobbits.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's a good point, I never thought about it that way. So when you think about it. . . it wasn't just Faramir's characterization that messed things up in the whole Ithilien/Osgiliath plot, it was also Frodo's (or something like that. . . ). But there was one thing in particular about movie Faramir that really irked me for some reason. . . okay, in the books, we hear Faramir's men talking about how he tells them not to harm living things (can't remember the exact words). But in the movie, he lets his men drag Gollum all the way to Osgiliath on a leash? It was just things like that that got to me. . . probably just me, though. But like I said, I've gotten to where I can tolerate the changes. David Wenham's performance made it all worthwhile, in my opinion.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

How else were they going to get him there? The Hobbits had the good sense to cooperate and limit their resistance to argument - Gollum clearly did not.<P> Oh, and Real Estel, I wouldn't lay any bets on Arwen ending up at the Havens. IMO her father has finally pushed her into running away to join Aragorn, with Narsil.<p>[ May 02, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[The Only Real Estel]

Yeah, I doubt she'll be at the havens, but it looked like Elrond sent her with the ships...I wondered why the did that (besides to get the viewers on the wrong track). <BR> <p>[ May 06, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I think that was the only reason. As far as I can see all PJ's changes have been intended to increase suspense - not easy to do when you're dealing with a work that everybody already knows the end of!

[Nyneve]

I did dislike the whole Faramir thing. They made him almost more corrupt than Boromir and not at all like Aragorn, who he is more like in my oppinion. The Eowyn thing wasn't too bad. Merry and Pippin Didn't have as much to do in the movie as they did in the book and they probably won't get the chance to be great Heroes like in the book. Also, I think that the Helm's deep scene was waaay too long. I did like everything else. Legolas didn't just stand around and look pretty, he had LINES!!!!!!

[Laiquendi]

these are what dissapointed me:<BR>1. Faramir was too evil, he was too much like his brother.<BR>2. They killed off Haldir!!!!!!!!!!! how dare they!!!! <BR>3. Treebeared was too small

[babsies]

what bugged me was that they left out shelob (sorry if anyone else mentioned that, i didnt read all the posts). she was my favorite part in the TTT. and as my friend pointed out, the story thing that sam was talking about came in rotk. also the part were aragorn falls off the cliff irked me. maybe my copy was wrong but i dont recall him falling off a cliff.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

No, your copy isn't wrong, PJ changed that. Probably Shelob was left out mostly because that would make it even more of a cliffhanger than it already is... though that might have been good for RotK's start-off at the box office... *runs away to think it over*<P>~Menelien

[Maeglin]

Seems like a lot of people disslike either something about the romance between arwen-aragorn or eowyn-aragorn. They where both fine to me but they werent givven any space, that's the sad thing. The movie spends to much time swaping around between action-scenes and totally leaves out the parts that made the books so great. The only thing that makes me dissapointed is the way the storyline is so much adjusted to all those ingorant watchers that just want to see people killing eachother and explode.<P>The only "detail" that makes me upset is how totally silly Treebeards descision to attack Isengard was. Like the oldest and most "mystic" beeing in the world wouldn't know about his friends beeing cut down. :P

[Lalaith]

One thing that no-one has mentioned is Theoden. A "kindly old man" in Tolkien, turned by PJ into a bitter, twisted loner. In the same way that PJ turned Faramir into Boromir-lite, Theoden, rather than providing a kindly, gentle contrast to the bitter Denethor, just becomes a rather less extreme version of him. Pah! (and that ridiculous exorcism scene)<BR>I also disliked the Merry/Pippin/Treebeard to-ing and fro-ing and Osgiliath, both of which slowed down the stream of narrative.<BR> <BR>Oh, and for what it's worth, I think PJ's beefed up Arwen by making her more like Luthien. And as the book says she is Luthien reborn, then that isn't so bad. <BR>But this 'Elrond's sent her to the havens' stuff was daft. And I so WISH they'd left Eowyn, and her relations with Aragorn, as Tolkien conceived them. <BR>But I did love surfing Legolas.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 'Elrond sent her to the Havens' stuff was daft. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, maybe PJ meant for something dramatic to happen after that... maybe a reliving of the story of Celebrian? *shudders violently* <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> but they werent givven any space, that's the sad thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I personally think the opposite. Way too much space. They were given like 15 minutes of the movie! I'd say 5 would be fine <P>~Menelien<P>Edit: I missed my eleventy-first post when I had it, but hooray! This is my (thousand and) eleventy-first! <p>[ May 08, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

[Maeglin]

Waaaao. That's so superficial. Ok I guess there wasn't need for so much more space but it definently wasn't too much. And I have to agree with that the "excorsism"-scene was plainly terrible. I'm just glad Gandalf didn't start shooting fireballs at Helms Deep untill his mana was wasted. :P

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> To me that got me was that Hildar died he was not even really supposed to be there <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, I liked that Haldir died, and I thought that the movie needed <I>one</I> death scene. I personally thought it was great. But hey, we all have out own opinions. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> That's so superficial. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, once again, we all have our opinions, and you can't really just say that one is moore superficial than the other <P>~Menelien

[The Only Real Estel]

Theoden was bad, and the demon thing was worse! I talked to my brother ( 20 and extremely knoweldgeable about LOTR ) about the scene were Arwen appears to be sent away to the havens by Elrond. He suggested that the earlier scene with Elrond being mad at Aragorn, and saying he wished she'd go, was just to throw you off the track. It's entirely possible that Elrond convinced her to go to the battle fields with Aragorn's standard ( lets hope and pray that she doesn't fight there! ), & not to the havens at all!. It's a very real possibility, & I doubt if PJ would have a second thought about messing her up more!