The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - General discussion about the verse material

Aiwendil · 03-17-2005, 09:52 AM

Piosenniel: I can but echo Findegil in welcoming your "intrusion" and urging you to join the discussion any time you have any comment at all.

Findegil: I agree that the best way to go with the Geste is to incorporate the whole of it in verse (option d), if it can be done. I fear that even such an apparently simple change as the updating of "Thu" may prove very problematic for both metre and rhyme. But I suppose there's nothing for it but to go ahead and try to work on the poem, and see how difficult it turns out to be.

Another issue with this approach is how (or if) we can introduce additions from other sources, besides mere changes. I'm not sure how many cases of this we'll run into. The one that occurs to me at the moment is a passage from "Ros" that tells that Luthien learned Beren's tongue after the escape from Tol-in-Gaurhoth, and gives a small bit of dialogue between them. This is the kind of thing that ordinarily we could just insert into the prose. But if we are keeping the Geste in verse, we have these options:

1. Omit it.
2. Insert a short piece of prose in the midst of the poem.
3. Formulate a verse addition.

None of those options seems entirely satisfactory to me.

As for the Narn: I see less of a problem here simply because the portion for which the highest priority version is in verse is much shorter. I don't see any particular reason that the alliterative verse would be more difficult to make changes to than the rhymed couplets of the Geste, but I agree that there would be considerable difficulty (though not necessarily insurmountable) in revising the passage and letting it stand as verse. Nonetheless, I think this is still a valid option that we ought to consider. Again, it seems to me that if possible, the best course is to include the whole section containing Hurin's rescue in verse; and again, it's the possibility that I doubt, not the mere idea of incorporating verse.

But I think another very promising option here is the conversion of the section into prose. It would be a delicate operation, to be sure, but I do not see any reason that it could not be done in principle.

In addition to the rescue from the Orc camp, there are a few details concerning Nargothrond in the lay that we may wish to add to the basic prose text (which I suppose here will be GA with additions from the Narn). In particular, I am thinking of the arrival of Turin and Gwindor and the feast held thereafter. So, if we opt to include these, we may be converting passages from verse to prose in any case.

03-17-2005, 09:52 AM	#7
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Piosenniel: I can but echo Findegil in welcoming your "intrusion" and urging you to join the discussion any time you have any comment at all. Findegil: I agree that the best way to go with the Geste is to incorporate the whole of it in verse (option d), if it can be done. I fear that even such an apparently simple change as the updating of "Thu" may prove very problematic for both metre and rhyme. But I suppose there's nothing for it but to go ahead and try to work on the poem, and see how difficult it turns out to be. Another issue with this approach is how (or if) we can introduce additions from other sources, besides mere changes. I'm not sure how many cases of this we'll run into. The one that occurs to me at the moment is a passage from "Ros" that tells that Luthien learned Beren's tongue after the escape from Tol-in-Gaurhoth, and gives a small bit of dialogue between them. This is the kind of thing that ordinarily we could just insert into the prose. But if we are keeping the Geste in verse, we have these options: 1. Omit it. 2. Insert a short piece of prose in the midst of the poem. 3. Formulate a verse addition. None of those options seems entirely satisfactory to me. As for the Narn: I see less of a problem here simply because the portion for which the highest priority version is in verse is much shorter. I don't see any particular reason that the alliterative verse would be more difficult to make changes to than the rhymed couplets of the Geste, but I agree that there would be considerable difficulty (though not necessarily insurmountable) in revising the passage and letting it stand as verse. Nonetheless, I think this is still a valid option that we ought to consider. Again, it seems to me that if possible, the best course is to include the whole section containing Hurin's rescue in verse; and again, it's the possibility that I doubt, not the mere idea of incorporating verse. But I think another very promising option here is the conversion of the section into prose. It would be a delicate operation, to be sure, but I do not see any reason that it could not be done in principle. In addition to the rescue from the Orc camp, there are a few details concerning Nargothrond in the lay that we may wish to add to the basic prose text (which I suppose here will be GA with additions from the Narn). In particular, I am thinking of the arrival of Turin and Gwindor and the feast held thereafter. So, if we opt to include these, we may be converting passages from verse to prose in any case.