General discussion about the verse material

[Aiwendil]

Piosenniel: I can but echo Findegil in welcoming your "intrusion" and urging you to join the discussion any time you have any comment at all.

Findegil: I agree that the best way to go with the Geste is to incorporate the whole of it in verse (option d), if it can be done. I fear that even such an apparently simple change as the updating of "Thu" may prove very problematic for both metre and rhyme. But I suppose there's nothing for it but to go ahead and try to work on the poem, and see how difficult it turns out to be.

Another issue with this approach is how (or if) we can introduce additions from other sources, besides mere changes. I'm not sure how many cases of this we'll run into. The one that occurs to me at the moment is a passage from "Ros" that tells that Luthien learned Beren's tongue after the escape from Tol-in-Gaurhoth, and gives a small bit of dialogue between them. This is the kind of thing that ordinarily we could just insert into the prose. But if we are keeping the Geste in verse, we have these options:

1. Omit it.
2. Insert a short piece of prose in the midst of the poem.
3. Formulate a verse addition.

None of those options seems entirely satisfactory to me.

As for the Narn: I see less of a problem here simply because the portion for which the highest priority version is in verse is much shorter. I don't see any particular reason that the alliterative verse would be more difficult to make changes to than the rhymed couplets of the Geste, but I agree that there would be considerable difficulty (though not necessarily insurmountable) in revising the passage and letting it stand as verse. Nonetheless, I think this is still a valid option that we ought to consider. Again, it seems to me that if possible, the best course is to include the whole section containing Hurin's rescue in verse; and again, it's the possibility that I doubt, not the mere idea of incorporating verse.

But I think another very promising option here is the conversion of the section into prose. It would be a delicate operation, to be sure, but I do not see any reason that it could not be done in principle.

In addition to the rescue from the Orc camp, there are a few details concerning Nargothrond in the lay that we may wish to add to the basic prose text (which I suppose here will be GA with additions from the Narn). In particular, I am thinking of the arrival of Turin and Gwindor and the feast held thereafter. So, if we opt to include these, we may be converting passages from verse to prose in any case.

[Maédhros]

Another issue with this approach is how (or if) we can introduce additions from other sources, besides mere changes. I'm not sure how many cases of this we'll run into. The one that occurs to me at the moment is a passage from "Ros" that tells that Luthien learned Beren's tongue after the escape from Tol-in-Gaurhoth, and gives a small bit of dialogue between them.

This looks to be very difficult but I would go with trying to transform the additions in verse form. (Not that I know how to do it). I think that overall it would be easier to do that than to transform the whole Geste into prose.

In the Narn I would as Aiwendil suggest try to transform the verse to prose (again I don't feel qualified for that) only in the parts that additions from others text are going to be made.
I think that we could advisable to only make the transformations from the least amount of lines possible in order to maintain JRRT exact words and to include the other parts. It would be quite beautiful to have the additons from the Lay where there is the description of Nargothrond.

Piosenniel: I'm glad that you have taken the time to read this stuff. I would really like if youwould comment on what you have read and gave us your thoughts.
I remember that someone called something like mark 12_15 or something, asked me for a portion of our work and never gave us the feedback.

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:

I fear that even such an apparently simple change as the updating of "Thu" may prove very problematic for both metre and rhyme.

That's definitley true. But it will be about 50 lines (or maximum 100 if we consider a rhyming couple as a hole) in which there is a problem of such changes. If we try to make the Geste a prose text we have about 4000 lines to deal with.

Posted by Aiwendil:

But I suppose there's nothing for it but to go ahead and try to work on the poem, and see how difficult it turns out to be.

That's exactlly what I think we should do.

About the addition you desiered from Ros: I did not consider that particular passage as jet, but I have tried to add a short passage from GA in the conversation of Felagund and Celegrom and Curufin. And I must say that I am not happy what I produced. If the groupe is not able to find some better solution, I think we will skip the passage in the end. But for the passage you would like to add I could see even a further option: we could add it in retrospect, since it is not bound up with some speciale point in the narrative.


Posted by Aiwendil:

Again, it seems to me that if possible, the best course is to include the whole section containing Turin's rescue in verse; and again, it's the possibility that I doubt, not the mere idea of incorporating verse.

That does again mean that we have to go ahaed and see what can be done. (So the ball is in my field again since I am working at the text in the moment - well I made some succes today, but I started the public version and found some misses in the privat version so I need a further check, which is best done by doing the public version for the part taken from the Narn, which must be done some times any way. But from my feeling it is nearly done, so you might expact the text to be in the private froum.)

Posted by Aiwendil:

But I think another very promising option here is the conversion of the section into prose. It would be a delicate operation, to be sure, but I do not see any reason that it could not be done in principle.

I agree that this option is much more possible in the case of The Lay of Children of Húrin. One point is that we have only about 1500 lines of which about 150 lines will be changed anyway and which are interuped by prose sections at 7 places. In addition I feel that the aliterative lines are much easier lost or overlook when they are not shown as such. But still I think it might be posible to rescue parts of the verse and I am not sure that the choice should absulute no verse or as much verse as possible. So if a stretch of verse looks still good after all changes are done to it, we should hold it. Even if in other places we reform the part of the poem to prose.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

I have posted the first draft for the Narn text in the privat forum. The public version of it will still take some time.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Antoine]

Findegil,

I did long time ago, during the Tuor project time a complet draft for the narn.
Please PM me.

Regards
Antoine (coming back from Mandos Caves)

[Aiwendil]

Good to see you, Antoine.

Findegil wrote:

But for the passage you would like to add I could see even a further option: we could add it in retrospect, since it is not bound up with some speciale point in the narrative.

True - but I would not count on this option presenting itself in every case.

Maedhros wrote:

This looks to be very difficult but I would go with trying to transform the additions in verse form. (Not that I know how to do it). I think that overall it would be easier to do that than to transform the whole Geste into prose.

After having reviewed the Geste a bit, I'm beginning to agree. Not that it would be difficult to transform the Geste into prose - but it would involve too much "creative" editing.

I have looked briefly at the Narn material that Findegil posted and it does look to me like the long extracts in verse might work. I will write up some comments on the specific changes when I get a chance.

[lindil]

Greetings to all [esp Antoine and Pio],

I have never spent anytime considering the Narn issue, so I will pass over it. The Lay however I would like to cast a couple of things into the hat.

I would first off suggest a parallel text for the Beren & Luthien Chapter, as far as possible.

Leaving space in either column when there is no parallel material.

This preserves both sources and allows the reader to move back and forth w/ out missing either.

Examples of this can be found most readily in 'parallel gospels' and such. I imagine also one sees this in collegiate circles for many ancient texts w/ many variants.

Anyway I feel it is far and above the best way.

Option 2 in my world of preferences is 'C' add in material as it fits and seems not to distract from the flow of the story. CJRT did it brilliantly w/ the finrod vs. sauron scene.

- as always these days,

good luck!