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Fordim Hedgethistle · 07-26-2006, 08:53 AM

Lal: I agree in your assessment of Mordor vs Shire and 'realistic' vs romantic -- but are we talking about the same thing? When I said that I find the Shire chapters to be realistic, I meant that they are written to the norms of literary realism, where the effect is one of normative reality, and where all fabulous or 'archaic' elements are expunged. Sure we have hobbits, but they are behaving a lot more like people in our own Primary world than any of the Men! What's more important is, I think, the importance these chapters give to psychological characterisation of individual characters (or, moral quandries and exploration by individual characters). The individualised struggle of the lone protagonist is the very heart of Literary Realism. What happens in Mordor is not so much about that as it is about the battle between Good and Evil, redemption, fate, despair and hope, etc (of course it's still about the story of two individuals, but it's much more in the tradition of Romance and Moral Fable in which the struggles of Sam and Frodo become almost allegorical of the journey everyone must make).

Boro: I agree with your comment on 'drawing us in' to the story and I think that is very much what I saw in those moments. As we have the narrator assuming almost a bardic role, singing to us of what's happening, we are literally in the audience watching it. The quintessential moment for this that I can think of is the arrival of Arwen in Minas Tirith. The way that incident is narrated it is almost as though I am standing in the healing fields of the Pelennor shoulder to shoulder with Gimli and Legolas, watching in joyous amazement as my new king brings to me my new queen. To have the narrator 'writing' that moment as in a realist novel, it would focus on Aragorn's perceptions of it as his 'reward' and 'fulfillment' -- thus making it 'his' moment and not necessarily 'mine'. But by having it narrated as a public/communal event to an observing crowd of which I am a part, I am literally drawn in and made a citizen of Minas Tirith (or, rather, it allows me to imagine myself into that position very easily) and the marriage is about me and my own fulfillment and satisfaction at the end of a long journey.

Rumil: one way I've always thought about that transition from the early chapters to the later is that it reflects Tolkien's own slow transformation of the story from a sequel to The Hobbit (and thus intended for children) and into something "altogether more dark and serious", "not suitable for bedtime reading" (if I am remembering the relevant letters correctly). I think this picks up Mark 12_30 and her point about the story being 'told' to Christopher over a number of years.

But, here we are in a thread about narrative mode and Bethberry has yet to rear her formidable head... And where's davem to tell me how it's all productive of faerie enchantment? And Saucy is needed to correct my mis-citations of the Letters. Am I not the only Downer on sabbatical??

07-26-2006, 08:53 AM	#5
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Lal: I agree in your assessment of Mordor vs Shire and 'realistic' vs romantic -- but are we talking about the same thing? When I said that I find the Shire chapters to be realistic, I meant that they are written to the norms of literary realism, where the effect is one of normative reality, and where all fabulous or 'archaic' elements are expunged. Sure we have hobbits, but they are behaving a lot more like people in our own Primary world than any of the Men! What's more important is, I think, the importance these chapters give to psychological characterisation of individual characters (or, moral quandries and exploration by individual characters). The individualised struggle of the lone protagonist is the very heart of Literary Realism. What happens in Mordor is not so much about that as it is about the battle between Good and Evil, redemption, fate, despair and hope, etc (of course it's still about the story of two individuals, but it's much more in the tradition of Romance and Moral Fable in which the struggles of Sam and Frodo become almost allegorical of the journey everyone must make). Boro: I agree with your comment on 'drawing us in' to the story and I think that is very much what I saw in those moments. As we have the narrator assuming almost a bardic role, singing to us of what's happening, we are literally in the audience watching it. The quintessential moment for this that I can think of is the arrival of Arwen in Minas Tirith. The way that incident is narrated it is almost as though I am standing in the healing fields of the Pelennor shoulder to shoulder with Gimli and Legolas, watching in joyous amazement as my new king brings to me my new queen. To have the narrator 'writing' that moment as in a realist novel, it would focus on Aragorn's perceptions of it as his 'reward' and 'fulfillment' -- thus making it 'his' moment and not necessarily 'mine'. But by having it narrated as a public/communal event to an observing crowd of which I am a part, I am literally drawn in and made a citizen of Minas Tirith (or, rather, it allows me to imagine myself into that position very easily) and the marriage is about me and my own fulfillment and satisfaction at the end of a long journey. Rumil: one way I've always thought about that transition from the early chapters to the later is that it reflects Tolkien's own slow transformation of the story from a sequel to The Hobbit (and thus intended for children) and into something "altogether more dark and serious", "not suitable for bedtime reading" (if I am remembering the relevant letters correctly). I think this picks up Mark 12_30 and her point about the story being 'told' to Christopher over a number of years. But, here we are in a thread about narrative mode and Bethberry has yet to rear her formidable head... And where's davem to tell me how it's all productive of faerie enchantment? And Saucy is needed to correct my mis-citations of the Letters. Am I not the only Downer on sabbatical?? __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.