Tolkien's shifting style - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Fordim Hedgethistle · 07-26-2006, 08:53 AM

Lal: I agree in your assessment of Mordor vs Shire and 'realistic' vs romantic -- but are we talking about the same thing? When I said that I find the Shire chapters to be realistic, I meant that they are written to the norms of literary realism, where the effect is one of normative reality, and where all fabulous or 'archaic' elements are expunged. Sure we have hobbits, but they are behaving a lot more like people in our own Primary world than any of the Men! What's more important is, I think, the importance these chapters give to psychological characterisation of individual characters (or, moral quandries and exploration by individual characters). The individualised struggle of the lone protagonist is the very heart of Literary Realism. What happens in Mordor is not so much about that as it is about the battle between Good and Evil, redemption, fate, despair and hope, etc (of course it's still about the story of two individuals, but it's much more in the tradition of Romance and Moral Fable in which the struggles of Sam and Frodo become almost allegorical of the journey everyone must make).

Boro: I agree with your comment on 'drawing us in' to the story and I think that is very much what I saw in those moments. As we have the narrator assuming almost a bardic role, singing to us of what's happening, we are literally in the audience watching it. The quintessential moment for this that I can think of is the arrival of Arwen in Minas Tirith. The way that incident is narrated it is almost as though I am standing in the healing fields of the Pelennor shoulder to shoulder with Gimli and Legolas, watching in joyous amazement as my new king brings to me my new queen. To have the narrator 'writing' that moment as in a realist novel, it would focus on Aragorn's perceptions of it as his 'reward' and 'fulfillment' -- thus making it 'his' moment and not necessarily 'mine'. But by having it narrated as a public/communal event to an observing crowd of which I am a part, I am literally drawn in and made a citizen of Minas Tirith (or, rather, it allows me to imagine myself into that position very easily) and the marriage is about me and my own fulfillment and satisfaction at the end of a long journey.

Rumil: one way I've always thought about that transition from the early chapters to the later is that it reflects Tolkien's own slow transformation of the story from a sequel to The Hobbit (and thus intended for children) and into something "altogether more dark and serious", "not suitable for bedtime reading" (if I am remembering the relevant letters correctly). I think this picks up Mark 12_30 and her point about the story being 'told' to Christopher over a number of years.

But, here we are in a thread about narrative mode and Bethberry has yet to rear her formidable head... And where's davem to tell me how it's all productive of faerie enchantment? And Saucy is needed to correct my mis-citations of the Letters. Am I not the only Downer on sabbatical??

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-26-2006, 09:31 AM

My impression on the change in narrative tone from the beginning to the end of the book is that it parallels the changes in the Hobbits. They start out provincial, insular, childlike, then as their horizon expands and they see more of the world, especially the "higher" levels of society, they gain vocabulary and acquire a more formal manner of speaking. It's almost like what we experience when visiting other areas of the country and putting on the accent spoken there, whether intentional or not.

Though the point of view is not at all times entirely hobbitish, we basically see Middle-earth through hobbit eyes. The change in style is the hobbits' change, not so much a change in point of view, in my opinion.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 07-26-2006, 09:33 AM

The hobbits' heroic journey = the development of a (more informed? better?) reader??

LOVE IT!!

davem · 07-26-2006, 01:11 PM

I don't see the early part of LotR as being 'childish' - certainly not in the style of the early parts of TH. Certainly the early drafts are, but not the finished version. Its a much more 'conversational', storytelling style. Its not that it becomes more 'adult' but rather that it becomes 'higher' in tone, reflecting the increasing seriousness of the situation. What's interesting to me (as I pointed out in the CBC thread) is that we begin with the narrator's voice reporting events & conversations but without any description of places, characters, costume etc. Its as though we are not 'seeing' anything, only 'hearing' a story. Gradually, we get description - as if our imaginative capacity is slowly growing as we enter the Secondary World.

I'm reminded of Olivier's Henry V - as the movie starts we are in the theatre, watching the players on stage, gradually we move to a series of stylised sets, designed along the lines of medieval manuscript illustrations, & finally, when we get to Agincourt, we move into live action. Then we move back through those stages till at the close of the movie we are back in the theatre watching the actors on stage. The same kind of thing happens with LotR, as we move from 'listening' in the dark, slowly beginning to 'see' the world of Middle-earth form. The world we see initially is also very 'stylised' in the way its presented, gradually becoming more & more vivid & powerful till we get to the destruction of the Ring. From then on we move back through the same stages, till we end up back with only the words of the Narrator in our heads. I think we see this clearly with the return of the Hobbits to the Shire where Frodo speaks of 'falling asleep again.'

Bêthberry · 07-27-2006, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

But, here we are in a thread about narrative mode and Bethberry has yet to rear her formidable head... And where's davem to tell me how it's all productive of faerie enchantment? And Saucy is needed to correct my mis-citations of the Letters. Am I not the only Downer on sabbatical??

Bethberry's head these days is attempting to rest as much as possible in the soothing lap of water at beach, pool, lake in an effort to subdue the humidity and give lethargy the acceptable face of athletic endeavour. Her thoughts under such conditions are anything but formidable, although a certain beverage with lime and Mexican water may help matters here. After all, I was beaten down some time ago for comments about Tolkien's style and the community has never forgiven me. Oh the censorship that reigns under the mask of fandom.

I suppose it is not only the marriage of Arwen and Aragorn which shows this epic style. Faramir and Eowyn stand on the walls of Gondor, where their troth is observable for all to see, although we are not told that people see it. Yet the kiss is clearly tied in with the passing of darkness and communal celebration. Here, clearly the public role of the aristocrats takes on larger proportion than their individual status. Tolkien said something to this effect in one of his letters justifying the speedy progress of the romance, but I don't have the letters to hand now.

It's a tantalizing theory, but like all, it may work best as a generality which does not assume all the details. I'm still not convinced, for example, that it works well for Legolas' and Gimli's speeches in "The Last Debate", where they are given dialogue that is quite different in style from that they used earlier. They talk like the narrator. Yet they are reciting events to the hobbits, so perhaps they fall into this epic style of narration.

Interestingly, though, this very difference between realism of the 19C novel and the epic style of poetry is something talked about as the difference between polysemy of voice and monolithic voice. (Fordim, I assume you are familiar with Bahktin.) Does the epic style, in conveying a communal perspective rather than individual voice, strike a note of The One Voice? Does it deny linguistic diversity? It certainly would fit in with Tolkien's thoughts about democracy to give preference of place to communal voice rather than individual voices.

Okay, I'm off to sip more of the lime stuff and cheat the heat. Expect any more replies when you see them.

PS. Boro, your thoughts on Jane Eyre are most intriguing. There are those who believe that Jane concludes her autobiography in a hightened state of some anguish, assuming a voice of hyperbole as she imagines a glorious martyrdom for her rejected lover.

Břicho · 01-12-2007, 03:58 AM

I know it's no crime, but I feel a little weird resurrecting such an ancient thread, but I'm new 'round here and haven't read a lot of these threads til now...

Anyway, I have considered the possibility-- that(within the "conceit") some of the chapters were not necessarily directly written by the hobbits: In particular "the Battle of the Pelennor", parts of "the Ride of the Rohirrim" and parts of "the Field of Cormallen" and "the Steward and the King" in which the style is radically different, far more heightened, stiffer, more like a Medieval text than the more "modern" styles employd by the hobbits. Tolkien does say that the Westron of the Gondor was a more archaic and heightened dialect than the "rustic" dialect of the Shire--and that indeed the actual differences between the dialects were greater than has been represented in the books.

Consider that the "Red Book" that Tolkien-the-fake-translator translated was NOT the original Red Book but a version that had been copied by a scribe of Gondor, who added various accounts from annals of Rohan and Gondor(mostly to the Tale of Years.) as well as the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. I thought that the battle of the Pelennor reads more like the "official Gondor account" then the story told by the Hobbits themslves. This applies also to the various alliterative "Rohirric" songs recorded in this chapter and the chapter before, as they are explicitly noted in the text as having been written many years later. While it's possible that Merry himself, at the end of his life, may have heard these songs and added them to his copy of the Red Book, I thought that at that point the story seems to be narrated as not as having been just recently completed but actually a very long time after the fact.(I have no evidence for this but the FEELING I get from reading the texts in these parts.)

AS far as the more playful tone in the beginning of the FOTR, couldn't it be that the more jovial Bilbo wrote those chapters, but didn't get any further as he was growing more interested in sleep than writing; and that the more sober, more mature Frodo wrote most of the rest of the book(with the exceptions of the heightened language "official records" passages in a few passages/chapters of ROTK that might have been added by an unnamed Gondorian scribe?)

07-26-2006, 08:53 AM	#1
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Lal: I agree in your assessment of Mordor vs Shire and 'realistic' vs romantic -- but are we talking about the same thing? When I said that I find the Shire chapters to be realistic, I meant that they are written to the norms of literary realism, where the effect is one of normative reality, and where all fabulous or 'archaic' elements are expunged. Sure we have hobbits, but they are behaving a lot more like people in our own Primary world than any of the Men! What's more important is, I think, the importance these chapters give to psychological characterisation of individual characters (or, moral quandries and exploration by individual characters). The individualised struggle of the lone protagonist is the very heart of Literary Realism. What happens in Mordor is not so much about that as it is about the battle between Good and Evil, redemption, fate, despair and hope, etc (of course it's still about the story of two individuals, but it's much more in the tradition of Romance and Moral Fable in which the struggles of Sam and Frodo become almost allegorical of the journey everyone must make). Boro: I agree with your comment on 'drawing us in' to the story and I think that is very much what I saw in those moments. As we have the narrator assuming almost a bardic role, singing to us of what's happening, we are literally in the audience watching it. The quintessential moment for this that I can think of is the arrival of Arwen in Minas Tirith. The way that incident is narrated it is almost as though I am standing in the healing fields of the Pelennor shoulder to shoulder with Gimli and Legolas, watching in joyous amazement as my new king brings to me my new queen. To have the narrator 'writing' that moment as in a realist novel, it would focus on Aragorn's perceptions of it as his 'reward' and 'fulfillment' -- thus making it 'his' moment and not necessarily 'mine'. But by having it narrated as a public/communal event to an observing crowd of which I am a part, I am literally drawn in and made a citizen of Minas Tirith (or, rather, it allows me to imagine myself into that position very easily) and the marriage is about me and my own fulfillment and satisfaction at the end of a long journey. Rumil: one way I've always thought about that transition from the early chapters to the later is that it reflects Tolkien's own slow transformation of the story from a sequel to The Hobbit (and thus intended for children) and into something "altogether more dark and serious", "not suitable for bedtime reading" (if I am remembering the relevant letters correctly). I think this picks up Mark 12_30 and her point about the story being 'told' to Christopher over a number of years. But, here we are in a thread about narrative mode and Bethberry has yet to rear her formidable head... And where's davem to tell me how it's all productive of faerie enchantment? And Saucy is needed to correct my mis-citations of the Letters. Am I not the only Downer on sabbatical?? __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.

07-26-2006, 09:31 AM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	My impression on the change in narrative tone from the beginning to the end of the book is that it parallels the changes in the Hobbits. They start out provincial, insular, childlike, then as their horizon expands and they see more of the world, especially the "higher" levels of society, they gain vocabulary and acquire a more formal manner of speaking. It's almost like what we experience when visiting other areas of the country and putting on the accent spoken there, whether intentional or not. Though the point of view is not at all times entirely hobbitish, we basically see Middle-earth through hobbit eyes. The change in style is the hobbits' change, not so much a change in point of view, in my opinion. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-26-2006, 01:11 PM	#4
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I don't see the early part of LotR as being 'childish' - certainly not in the style of the early parts of TH. Certainly the early drafts are, but not the finished version. Its a much more 'conversational', storytelling style. Its not that it becomes more 'adult' but rather that it becomes 'higher' in tone, reflecting the increasing seriousness of the situation. What's interesting to me (as I pointed out in the CBC thread) is that we begin with the narrator's voice reporting events & conversations but without any description of places, characters, costume etc. Its as though we are not 'seeing' anything, only 'hearing' a story. Gradually, we get description - as if our imaginative capacity is slowly growing as we enter the Secondary World. I'm reminded of Olivier's Henry V - as the movie starts we are in the theatre, watching the players on stage, gradually we move to a series of stylised sets, designed along the lines of medieval manuscript illustrations, & finally, when we get to Agincourt, we move into live action. Then we move back through those stages till at the close of the movie we are back in the theatre watching the actors on stage. The same kind of thing happens with LotR, as we move from 'listening' in the dark, slowly beginning to 'see' the world of Middle-earth form. The world we see initially is also very 'stylised' in the way its presented, gradually becoming more & more vivid & powerful till we get to the destruction of the Ring. From then on we move back through the same stages, till we end up back with only the words of the Narrator in our heads. I think we see this clearly with the return of the Hobbits to the Shire where Frodo speaks of 'falling asleep again.' Last edited by davem; 07-27-2006 at 02:37 AM.

01-12-2007, 03:58 AM	#6
Břicho Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vsetin Czech Republic Posts: 36	I know it's no crime, but I feel a little weird resurrecting such an ancient thread, but I'm new 'round here and haven't read a lot of these threads til now... Anyway, I have considered the possibility-- that(within the "conceit") some of the chapters were not necessarily directly written by the hobbits: In particular "the Battle of the Pelennor", parts of "the Ride of the Rohirrim" and parts of "the Field of Cormallen" and "the Steward and the King" in which the style is radically different, far more heightened, stiffer, more like a Medieval text than the more "modern" styles employd by the hobbits. Tolkien does say that the Westron of the Gondor was a more archaic and heightened dialect than the "rustic" dialect of the Shire--and that indeed the actual differences between the dialects were greater than has been represented in the books. Consider that the "Red Book" that Tolkien-the-fake-translator translated was NOT the original Red Book but a version that had been copied by a scribe of Gondor, who added various accounts from annals of Rohan and Gondor(mostly to the Tale of Years.) as well as the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. I thought that the battle of the Pelennor reads more like the "official Gondor account" then the story told by the Hobbits themslves. This applies also to the various alliterative "Rohirric" songs recorded in this chapter and the chapter before, as they are explicitly noted in the text as having been written many years later. While it's possible that Merry himself, at the end of his life, may have heard these songs and added them to his copy of the Red Book, I thought that at that point the story seems to be narrated as not as having been just recently completed but actually a very long time after the fact.(I have no evidence for this but the FEELING I get from reading the texts in these parts.) AS far as the more playful tone in the beginning of the FOTR, couldn't it be that the more jovial Bilbo wrote those chapters, but didn't get any further as he was growing more interested in sleep than writing; and that the more sober, more mature Frodo wrote most of the rest of the book(with the exceptions of the heightened language "official records" passages in a few passages/chapters of ROTK that might have been added by an unnamed Gondorian scribe?) Last edited by Břicho; 01-12-2007 at 04:02 AM.

07-26-2006, 09:33 AM	#3
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	The hobbits' heroic journey = the development of a (more informed? better?) reader?? LOVE IT!!