[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The gender issue is merely an example of how Tolkien's mythology differs from others. It can also, however, been seen as a gaping big hole in the cosmology. If a mythology of creation ignores a basic fact in favour of an asexual initial form of being, then one can ask how the later development of sexual being is regarded. The unfortunate consequence for much of human development is that, when male is defined as the main or true or essential form and female as the standby, then power inequity is inevitable. It is not only women who suffer, but children also.

It is unfortunate, and one does wonder if it is intentionally wrought in some cultures to validate authority. I have the feeling that 'intentionally' would be too strong a word. But in a patriarchal society, a male creator would naturally be assumed because the the myth would have sprung from a culture that valued male lineage . It does seem strange that if there is a creator of one sex or the other, that the other gender is brought about at all. To me it might be seen to imply that the creator might be incomplete in some aspect. But again creation stories are recorded by the supposed created in a way that they can best understand.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Frankly, I don't know where this would lead in a discussion of The Silm. We can wonder why a Denethor even in madness would think he has the right to immolate his son, and to consider the nature of sub-creation and control over what one creates. What is the nature of human creativity and will?

This brings to mind Melkor and Feanor.

And speaking of Melkor, it seems ironic and perhaps vaguely related that this one of the Ainur desires to find the Flame Imperishable, which seems to give the world it’s life and which besides being at the heart of the world, resides with Illuvatar. Does he think it the power behind Iluvatar’s creative force? Is this one reason he ‘kindled great fires’ and coveted the Earth ‘when it was yet young and full of flame’?

Another interesting thing to me is that Manwë is ‘the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar.’ Somehow I cannot wrap my brain around it.

Also, regarding the Valar, these two things:

But this condition Illuvatar made, or it is necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforth be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it theirs Therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

And yet there labor was not all in vain; and though nowhere and in no work was their will and purpose wholly fulfilled, and all things were in a hue and shape other than the Valar had at first intended.....

Has Melkor’s mischief in a way helped prevent in the other Valar a possessiveness that might go beyond Feanor’s? One can only wonder!

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Just to follow on from Hilde and Bethberry (great points BTW), the Ainur were originally quite different, in that they had sex and had children. What does this change say about Tolkien?

Oh dear, I was forgetting Melian, wasn't I? I wonder if she would count, it being a mixed marriage and all