Silmarillion - Ainulindale

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The gender issue is merely an example of how Tolkien's mythology differs from others. It can also, however, been seen as a gaping big hole in the cosmology. If a mythology of creation ignores a basic fact in favour of an asexual initial form of being, then one can ask how the later development of sexual being is regarded. The unfortunate consequence for much of human development is that, when male is defined as the main or true or essential form and female as the standby, then power inequity is inevitable. It is not only women who suffer, but children also.

It is unfortunate, and one does wonder if it is intentionally wrought in some cultures to validate authority. I have the feeling that 'intentionally' would be too strong a word. But in a patriarchal society, a male creator would naturally be assumed because the the myth would have sprung from a culture that valued male lineage . It does seem strange that if there is a creator of one sex or the other, that the other gender is brought about at all. To me it might be seen to imply that the creator might be incomplete in some aspect. But again creation stories are recorded by the supposed created in a way that they can best understand.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Frankly, I don't know where this would lead in a discussion of The Silm. We can wonder why a Denethor even in madness would think he has the right to immolate his son, and to consider the nature of sub-creation and control over what one creates. What is the nature of human creativity and will?

This brings to mind Melkor and Feanor.

And speaking of Melkor, it seems ironic and perhaps vaguely related that this one of the Ainur desires to find the Flame Imperishable, which seems to give the world it’s life and which besides being at the heart of the world, resides with Illuvatar. Does he think it the power behind Iluvatar’s creative force? Is this one reason he ‘kindled great fires’ and coveted the Earth ‘when it was yet young and full of flame’?

Another interesting thing to me is that Manwë is ‘the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar.’ Somehow I cannot wrap my brain around it.

Also, regarding the Valar, these two things:

But this condition Illuvatar made, or it is necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforth be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it theirs Therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

And yet there labor was not all in vain; and though nowhere and in no work was their will and purpose wholly fulfilled, and all things were in a hue and shape other than the Valar had at first intended.....

Has Melkor’s mischief in a way helped prevent in the other Valar a possessiveness that might go beyond Feanor’s? One can only wonder!

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Just to follow on from Hilde and Bethberry (great points BTW), the Ainur were originally quite different, in that they had sex and had children. What does this change say about Tolkien?

Oh dear, I was forgetting Melian, wasn't I? I wonder if she would count, it being a mixed marriage and all

[Aiwendil]

Bethberry wrote:

There's been a fair bit of thought and discussion gone into this idea that one can distinguish a conceptual from a linguistic notion and much of it has demonstrated that this idea of a default unspecified gender reference is an erroneous concept--that always, at some place, the lack of specificity falls down, and in its place lies the defining position of one particular specified gender.

I agree and disagree. I agree in that I think it's correct that the idea of a default unspecified gender reference is an erroneous concept. In other words, when one uses the masculine pronoun in reference to a person whose gender is unknown or unspecified, this reflects certain underlying facts about the speaker's psychology/culture/socio-linguistic background. That is, "linguistic sexism" is real sexism.

However, I would still draw a distinction. Suppose a person says "Everyone should mind his own business". The speaker has used the masculine pronoun, but this does not necessarily mean that the speaker intended to make a statement only about men. The speaker may very well have viewed "his" as a neutral pronoun in this context - even if the speaker is wrong about it being neutral. What I'm trying to say, I suppose, is that someone who says "Everyone should mind his own business" does not necessarily mean to say "Every male person should mind his own business", much less "Every person should mind his own business, and my conception of 'personhood' is limited to males."

So, the way I see it, Tolkien's choice to use the masculine pronoun for Iluvatar does not necessarily imply that Tolkien was restricting creativity to males within his Legendarium. It certainly does imply that he had certain preconceived notions (perhaps not conscious ones) about the male-female dichotomy; and I do think that there is a kind of androcentrism and implied sexism in both his creation myth and the Judeo-Christian one.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

So, the way I see it, Tolkien's choice to use the masculine pronoun for Iluvatar does not necessarily imply that Tolkien was restricting creativity to males within his Legendarium. It certainly does imply that he had certain preconceived notions (perhaps not conscious ones) about the male-female dichotomy; and I do think that there is a kind of androcentrism and implied sexism in both his creation myth and the Judeo-Christian one.

Oh, I think you are right there. The point would be to see how this un/conscious prioritising of males plays out, if at all, in the story. (And it probably would be of greater understanding if the label 'sexist' were not used.)

By the by, there is that interesting letter of Tolkien to his son Michael. The Letters of course need to be kept in context and considered in light of many things and not taken as decrees absolute. Yet it is worth keeping these observations in mind:

Originally Posted by Tolkien, Letter #43, March 1941

No intent necessarily to deceive: sheer instinct: the servient, helpmeet instinct, generously warmed by desire and young blood. Under this impulse they can in fact often achieve very remarkable insight and understanding, even of things otherwise outside their natural range: for it is their gift to be receptive, stimulated, fertilized (in many other matters than the physical) by the male. Every teacher knows that. How quickly an intelligent woman can be taught, grasp his ideas, see his point -- and how (with rare exceptions) they can go no further, when they leave his hand, or when they cease to take a personal interest in him.

None of which is to diminish the fascinating job Tolkien has done in creating a new myth.

[davem]

Given that Tolkien was an Edwardian, & spent most of his life in a male dominated society, I suppose the most surprising thing about his work is how many strong female characters there are. If we look at the fantasy of William Morris, ER Eddison, Robert E Howard, Edgar Rice Burrows, Lord Dunsany, & even his friend & contemporary Lewis we don't find anything like the complex & significant female characters we find in Tolkien. We find fewer in the myths & legends that inspired him.

[Durelin]

Having learned about Aboriginal religion recently, I couldn’t help but think of it when I saw this thread. Though I’m still not exactly sure why…

In Aboriginal religion, creation itself is known as ‘dream time’ or ‘the dreaming,’ and the beginning of the physical world began with the beginning of dream time. Before there was a physical world, ‘waking time’ and ‘sleeping time’ were one in the same. Underneath the earth, everything that makes up everything in the physical world was asleep. Creation occurred when waking time and sleeping time were split, and dream time resulted.

The “Ancestors” were sort of supernatural beings that were asleep beneath the Earth, as well, and they awakened at creation, and gave shape to the landscape, formed living things, and the like. They created the first human beings, and organized them into different tribes, putting each tribe in the land where they should live, and giving them their traditions and customs.

The way they formed the land and life on the Earth was through music as they traveled all over the Earth. Afterwards, some of the Ancestors went back into the Earth to sleep, and left outlines of themselves in the landscape. Others stayed and became parts of the land themselves.

To me, the Ancestors seem a bit like the Ainur and Maiar. Really, the main striking resemblance is something that can be found in almost every religion: music.

Perhaps the Yoruba religion’s creation story shares some similarities, as well. The supreme being was Oldumare, and there was a creator of heaven and of earth: Oron and Aye, respectively. All of the other (a little) lesser spiritual deities are known as the Orishas. (There are also Ancestor spirits called the Egungun.)

The Orishas were created as sort of emissaries of Oldumare, and were formed because the god overflowed his boundaries with goodness and power and the like. They are essentially part of Oldumare, and each Orisha has a characteristic and “anti-characteristic” that they represent (essentially representing the entire spectrum of a characteristic). The Orishas were responsible for creating the land on earth.

I think the Orishas share a bit in common with the Maiar and Ainur, too, representing characteristics or ideas, and ‘created’ by Ilúvatar more as ideas than actual beings.

The connections are vague, at best, but these being two very old religions, it’s interesting to me to see just how easy it is to draw connections from any religion to another, and even (or maybe that should be ‘of course’) to a ‘fictional’ creation story. Music is a key part of pretty much all religions, which is curious. Perhaps that sort of unifying idea was what Tolkien had in mind. Of course, there’s no more distinct way to illustrate harmony than through music, I think.

And now I think perhaps it was a combination of the Aboriginal and Yoruba religions in my head that caused me to really think of the Ancestors as incredibly like the Ainur and/or Maiar. Ancestorishas, maybe.

I apologize for not really drawing any conclusions. Just wanted to toss ideas out there.

(Also, I apologize if any of my explanations concerning the religions are off. I am by no means an expert...)

And (I swear, this is the last disclaimer!), I am not beginning to declare that Tolkien was at all inspired by knowledge of these religions at all. Just pointing out interesting similarities, which are, in my opinion, inevitable, regardless of purpose (or lack thereof).

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

I first tried to read the Silm back in high school in the 80s. Unlike a few here, I loved the Ainulindale the first time I read it, and stumbled over the Valaquenta, giving up on the Silm until a decade later (or more). Still, the Ainulindale is my favorite part of what has become my favorite of Tolkien's works. In college as a music major, I wanted, for my senior project, to write a piece of music based on the it, and still do. I ended up arranging the music for my wedding instead (still married 15 years later, BTW, so I probably made the better choice).

Anyway, here are some scattered and disorganized thoughts on the discussion as it has unfolded:

First, regarding the origin of evil, it is true that in any monotheistic worldview, the question of where did evil come from is a tricky one. The Judeo-Christian answer is that if God did not allow free choice, then true love could not exist, because for love to be real, it must be freely given. By the same token, if one is free to choose not to love, then one is free to choose evil. So, God created the framework for evil to exist, but not the actual evil itself. Here's the question I don't think will ever be answered this side of eternity - how did evil enter into the heart of Melkor (Satan).

Think about, created in perfection, wisdom beyond measure, living in the presence of the Creator, and still he rebelled. Anguirel might find something admirable in this, but to stand against what would be the most impressive, awesome, etc., sight in the universe and decide there must be something better is quite a leap, in my book.

(Does anyone know how Islam deals with the origin of evil question?)

Second, regarding the sex of the valar, when Tolkien rewrote the Ainulindale to eliminate the valar's offsrping, he made them somewhat closer to the angels of the Judeo-Christian tradition, but not completely. As LJ said to the Pharisees, angels "do not marry or are they given in marriage". At the same time, the Valar did espouse each other, but with the exception of Melian, did not copulate.

Melian has precedent, too. One common interpretation of the theme from Genesis where the Sons of God had intercourse with the daughters of men and produced the Nephilim, mighty men of old, men of reknown, was that fallen angels were impregnating human women, resulting in sort of supermen half-breeds.

One other interesting change, which will become more distinct in later chapters, is that Tolkien reduced the size of his pantheon. The earlier versions (all that I've read is Lost Tales) have additional "gods" of war and the like, that he eliminated for the final work. Could it be that Tolkien became more religiously conservative as he aged, and his writing reflected that?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Pio

the repetition of sounds in the sentences and how the words are put together or spaced apart reminds me at times of a river's water sliding over stones of differing sizes, over sandy bars, and bumping with varying degrees of force against those things which have fallen into it before flowing on again.

It just struck me that this resembles the way Goldberry's voice is described in LotR.