[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Durelin

And just as a note, as far as I know, we're talking about a disorder that can be diagnosed at various degrees of severity...so someone with bipolar disorder being 'frightening' or running around screaming suggests to me great severity, other problems, or they're just messing with you. (I also am close to someone with the disorder, though not severe.)

Dury, your point about degree is well taken, yet that does not change the question of whether this issue opens up the text to greater understanding if we apply the contemporary context of psychotic disorder or if it leads us astray in trying to understand Melkor's role. Is his fundamental motivation to control people and employ harm to gain power part of the current description of bipolar disorder?

Originally Posted by Durelin

But I agree with Ren that I considered Melkor to demonstrate his evil in many ways. I recall reading the bit about Melkor and Luthien and thinking he exhibited lust, as well. But what Melkor is all about is (as with all great evils), of course, power. He desires control over people and demonstrates his power through harm.

One other issue about interpretation is that the word "lust" has undergone signifcant shifts in meaning, and the Old English meanings in particular are not limited exclusivley to sexual desire. We can point to Tolkien's knowledge of Old English and consider if he was using these older meanings. And we can examine the text to see how well it supports interpretation of sexual desire.

Readers are free to make any interpretation they wish, but they should also be able to justify their interpretion or explain their theoretical perspective.

Here are some of the older meanings of the word lust.

Originally Posted by OED

a. Pleasure, delight. Const. in, to, unto. (Sometimes coupled with liking.) Obs.
c888 Ælfred tr. Boethius De Consol. Philos. xxiv. §3 Þa sæde he [Epicurus]  se lust wære  hehste good.
c1275 Luue Ron 93 in Old Eng. Misc. 96 He [Jesus] is feyr and bryht on heowe‥Of lufsum lost of truste treowe.
1340 Ayenbite (1866) 92 Of zuyche blisse and of zuyche loste no liknesse‥ne may by yuounde‥ine lostes of þe wordle.
c1380 Eng. Wycliffite Serm. in Sel. Wks. I. 2 Sone, have mynde how þou haddist lust in this lyfe, and Lazar peyne.
a1470 Malory Morte Darthur (Winch. Coll. 13) (1990) II. 810 Alas! my swete sonnys,‥for youre sakys I shall fyrste lose my lykynge and luste.
a1529 J. Skelton Elynour Rummyng (?1545) 222 Whan we kys and play, In lust and in lykyng.
c1580 Sir P. Sidney tr. Psalmes David xxii. v, Let God save hym in whom was all his lust.
1594 Shakespeare Lucrece sig. K2, Gazing vppon the Greekes with little lust.
a1616 Shakespeare Timon of Athens (1623) iv. iii. 486.

c888—a1616(Hide quotations)

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†b. pl. Pleasures. Obs.
c1000 West Saxon Gospels: Luke (Corpus Cambr.) viii. 14 Þa ðe‥of carum‥& of lustum þiss lifes synt for-þrysmede.
1340 Ayenbite (1866) 72 Þer hy habbeþ‥hire solas, hire blisse, and hire confort, and alle hire lostes.
c1369 Chaucer Bk. Duchesse 581 My lyf, my lustes be me lothe.
1382 Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) 2 Tim. iii. 4 Loueris of lustis [Vulg. voluptatum amatores] more than of God.
c1420 Anturs of Arth. 213 This es it to luffe paramoures, and lustis [v.r. listes] and litys.
c1540 Destr. Troy 3317 All your ledys‥[shal] lyue in þis lond with lustes at ease.

c1000—c1540(Hide quotations)

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c. quasi-concr. A source of pleasure or delight; †an attraction, charm (obs.). poet.
1390 J. Gower Confessio I. 46 O Venus,‥Thou lif, thou lust, thou mannes hele.
1390 J. Gower Confessio II. 46 In kertles and in Copes riche Thei weren clothed‥With alle lustes that eche knew Thei were enbrouded overal.
1423 Kingis Quair lxv, Our lyf, oure lust, oure gouernoure, oure quene.
1549–62 T. Sternhold & J. Hopkins Whole Bk. Psalms lxii. 7 God is my glory and my health, my soules desire and lust.

1390—1549-62(Hide quotations)

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†d. Liking, friendly inclination to a person. Obs.
c1430 Freemasonry 506 For they were werkemen of the beste, The emperour hade to them gret luste.
1535 Bible (Coverdale) Num. xiv. A, Yf the Lorde haue lust vnto vs [1611 If the Lord delight in vs].

c1430—1535(Hide quotations)

†2.

a. Desire, appetite, relish or inclination for something. Const. of; to (with n. or inf.). Sometimes joined with leisure (cf. list n.4 2). Obs.Now merged in the stronger use 5 (influenced by 4).
a900 tr. Bede Eccl. Hist. (1890) v. xiii. [xii.] 436 Mid unges~wencedlice luste heofonlicra gode.
c1000 Ælfric Homilies I. 86 Him wæs metes micel lust.
?c1225 (1200) Ancrene Riwle (Cleo. C. 6) (1972) 96 Oðer hwile þe lust is hat towart an sunne.
1340 Ayenbite (1866) 253 Þe oþer stape is þet me zette mesure ine þe loste and mid þe likinge of þe wille.
c1400 Mandeville's Trav. (1839) xxviii. 285, I hadde no lust to go to tho parties.
a1470 Malory Morte Darthur (Winch. Coll. 13) (1990) I. 253 The wedir was hote aboute noone, and sir Launcelot had grete luste to slepe.
15.. Frere & Boye 56 in J. Ritson Pieces Anc. Pop. Poetry (1833) 37 Hys dyner forth he drough: Whan he sawe it was but bad, Ful lytell lust thereto he had.
1528 Tyndale Obedience Christen Man To Rdr. f. iiijv, Yf we thurst, his [sc. God's] trueth shall fulfill oure luste.
1530 J. Palsgrave Lesclarcissement 580/2, I have nothing so good luste to my worke as I had yesterdaye.
1570 J. Foxe Serm. 2 Cor. v, Ep. Ded. sig. A iiij, Men wholy geuen ouer to worldly studyes haue litle leysure, and lesse lust, either to heare Sermons or to read bookes.
1613 F. Beaumont Knight of Burning Pestle i. sig. C3v, If you would consider your state, you would haue little lust to sing, I-wisse.
1627 W. Sclater Briefe Expos. 2 Thess. (1629) 276, I have neither lust nor leasure to enter the question.

a900—1627(Hide quotations)


†b. with indefinite article. Obs.
1426 Lydgate tr. G. de Guileville Pilgr. Lyf Man 23360, I had a lust‥for to holden my passage.
1528 T. Paynell tr. Regimen Sanitatis Salerni (1535) 11 b, No man ought to eate but after he hath a luste.
1530 J. Palsgrave Lesclarcissement 616/1, I have a luste to gyve you a blowe on the cheke.
1549–62 T. Sternhold & J. Hopkins Whole Bk. Psalms lxxi. (1566) 167 From my youth I had a lust Stil to depend on thee.
1641 J. Jackson True Evang. Temper ii. 161 Such as did seeke the Glory of Martyrs‥out of a lust of dying.

1426—1641(Hide quotations)

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†c. (One's) desire or wish; (one's) good pleasure. Phr. at (after) one's lust . Obs.
c950 Lindisf. Gosp. John i. 13 Ðaðe ne of blodum ne of uillo vel of lust lichomæs ne from uillo vel lust [weres] ah Gode gecened sint.
a1300 Cursor Mundi 2899 Sua ferr your lust yee foln noght, Þat yee for-gete him þat yow wroght.
c1405 (1385) Chaucer Knight's Tale (Hengwrt) (2003) l. 1620 Weep now namoore, I wol thy lust fulfille.
a1500 (1450) Merlin (1899) xvi. 268 Whan he was all to-brosed and hym diffouled at her lust saf thei haue hym not slain.
1535 Bible (Coverdale) Psalms xci. 11 Myne eye also shal se his lust of myne enemies.
c1540 Destr. Troy 8852 All the pepull to pyne put and dethe at oure lust?
1576 A. Fleming tr. Cicero in Panoplie Epist. 18 If by the law of your lust, you account me a craftie‥felow.
1578 J. Lyly Euphues f. 14v, Will thy father‥giue thee libertie to lyue after thyne owne lust?
1609 Shakespeare Troilus & Cressida iv. v. 132 When I am hence, Ile answer to my lust.
1677 C. Sedley Antony & Cleopatra i. 5 The Valiant cannot board, nor Coward fly, But at the lust of the unconstant Sky.

c950—1677(Hide quotations)

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†d. = longing n.1 2. Obs.
1530 J. Palsgrave Lesclarcissement 241/2 Luste as women with chylde have.

1530—1530(Hide quotations)

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3. spec. in Biblical and Theological use: Sensuous appetite or desire, considered as sinful or leading to sin. Often pl. esp. in the lusts of the flesh , fleshly lusts.
OE Cynewulf Juliana 409 Him sylfum selle þynceð leahtras to fremman ofer lof godes, lices lustas.
c1200 Trin. Coll. Hom. 29 Ðre þing beð þat mankin heuieð. On is þe selue lust, oðer is iuel lehtres. Ðe þridde flesliche lustes.
c1230 Hali Meid. 3 Pricunges of fleschliche fulðen to licomliche lustes.
a1400 Cursor M. 28749 (Cott. Galba) , Fasting and gude bisines gers a man fle lustes of fless.
1526 Bible (Tyndale) 1 John ii. 16 All that is in the worlde (as the lust of the flesshe, the lust of the eyes, and the pryde of gooddes).
a1616 Shakespeare Othello (1622) i. iii. 331 Wee haue reason to coole our raging motions, our carnall stings, our vnbitted lusts.
1648 Bp. J. Wilkins Math. Magick i. i. 2 Which set a man at liberty from his lusts and passions.
1857 F. D. Maurice Epist. St. John viii. 130 These sensual pleasures, these gods of our creation, these lusts which we are feeding.
1900 J. Watson in Expositor Sept. 193 This world with its pride and its riches and its lust and its glitter must pass away.

OE—1900(Hide quotations)

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4. Sexual appetite or desire. Chiefly and now exclusively implying intense moral reprobation: Libidinous desire, degrading animal passion. (The chief current use.)
c1000 Sax. Leechd. I. 358 Weres wylla to gefremmanne nime bares geallan & smyre mid þone teors & þa hærþan þonne hafað he mycelne lust.
a1100 in T. Wright & R. P. Wülcker Anglo-Saxon & Old Eng. Vocab. (1884) I. 524/34 Ueneris, lustes.
a1300 Cursor Mundi 26254 Man þat menges him wit best for his flexs lust to ful-fill.
c1315 Shoreham Poems i. 1981 Ne stren may nou encressy Wyþ-oute flesches loste.
c1400 Mandeville's Trav. (1839) iv. 27 The grete lust that he had to hire.
c1412 T. Hoccleve De Reg. Princ. 1563 Thou deemest luste and love convertible.
1593 Shakespeare Venus & Adonis sig. Fv, Loue comforteth like sun-shine after raine, But lusts effect is tempest after sunne.
1607 E. Topsell Hist. Fovre-footed Beastes 105 In the time of their lust (commonly called cat-wralling) they [sc. cats] are wilde and fierce, especially the males.
1641 Naunton's Fragmenta Regalia sig. A3, He never spared man in his Anger, nor woman in his Lust.
1667 Milton Paradise Lost ix. 1015 In Lust they burne: Till Adam thus 'gan Eve to dalliance move.
1697 Dryden tr. Virgil Georgics ii, in tr. Virgil Wks. 90 Wine urg'd to lawless Lust the Centaurs Train.
a1704 T. Brown Satire against Woman in Wks. (1707) I. i. 84 We need not rake the Brothel and the Stews, To see what various Scenes of Lust they use.
1757 E. Burke Philos. Enq. Sublime & Beautiful i. §10. 17 The passion which belongs to generation, merely as such, is lust only.
1855 Tennyson Maud xxii. ii, in Maud & Other Poems 75 The feeble vassals of wine and anger and lust.