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03-29-2011, 05:30 PM
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Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,063
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And just as a note, as far as I know, we're talking about a disorder that can be diagnosed at various degrees of severity...so someone with bipolar disorder being 'frightening' or running around screaming suggests to me great severity, other problems, or they're just messing with you. (I also am close to someone with the disorder, though not severe.)
But I agree with Ren that I considered Melkor to demonstrate his evil in many ways. I recall reading the bit about Melkor and Luthien and thinking he exhibited lust, as well. But what Melkor is all about is (as with all great evils), of course, power. He desires control over people and demonstrates his power through harm. |
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03-29-2011, 09:22 PM
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Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Readers are free to make any interpretation they wish, but they should also be able to justify their interpretion or explain their theoretical perspective. Here are some of the older meanings of the word lust. Quote:
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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03-29-2011, 10:01 PM
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Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,063
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I wasn't suggesting anything about the application of a disorder to Melkor (I also disagree with it, but figured there was enough people coming down strongly against it). I was simply responding to some remarks I personally found a little disparaging in describing the disorder.
Yes, I realize lust's meaning has changed over time and really in my own vocabulary it doesn't necessarily mean sexual desire. It does seem to largely refer to desire; which is not necessarily a bad thing. Obviously the adjective 'lusty' was a positive adjective and really as far as I know could describe youthfulness or at least youthful vigor, which of course is full of desires. (One of the benefits of old age according to Seneca is the lack of desires, haha) I don't think Melkor's 'lust' was necessarily (just) sexual desire, but perhaps the lust of owning a person in such a way that he clearly demonstrates his power. 'Lust' as simply 'sexual desire' is a pretty neutral feeling. Melkor's hardly neutral or hardly simple instinct. (I tried to express that I thought it was more than just simple sexual lust in my previous post, as well, but obviously it was short and didn't get much of anything across.) Quote:
I seriously don't know why I posted when I honestly don't remember much and don't have any Tolkien books here with me at all. Quote:
Last edited by Durelin; 03-29-2011 at 10:05 PM. |
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03-30-2011, 05:15 AM
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#4 |
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Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,512
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*NOTE: Morgoth wanted to posess all of Arda, and all its beauty. If he could not take it, he'd rather destroy it.
He thought that he could keep Luthien to himself, just like he kept the Silmarilli.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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03-30-2011, 10:07 AM
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#5 |
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Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,063
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Then how was taking Luthien a 'design more dark' than any yet? He hadn't made up his mind what all he wanted at this point? I would think he wanted to possess and control (have the power to create and drestroy) from the beginning. Why was this 'more dark?' Just a way to make it sound more dramatic?
I think the possession here is of a different kind, because he focuses his desire for possession on an individual woman. Last edited by Durelin; 03-30-2011 at 10:16 AM. |
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03-30-2011, 10:46 AM
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Dead Serious
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,328
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Tangents, anyone?
Although I agree that one should strongly avoid diagnosing literary characters with psychological illnesses (unless the diagnosis is made in-story), this thread raises an interesting question in my mind, about whether psychological illnesses are possible for Elves.
Now, let me be clear: I am not asking whether Elf X has Psychological Ailment Y. That falls under the general rubric of "impossible to say, because they're literary characters." However, it strikes me that even before one were to address the question of "does Elf X have condition Y," the question should be asked as to whether any Elf could have any psychological ailment. We know that Elves were not generally susceptible to disease--but I have always taken that to mean germs (which psychological illness is not caused by) or physical defects (such as genetic illnesses or cancer). Now, some psychological illnesses, I understand, ARE caused by things like genetic defects, which I would instinctively like to rule out. However, the issue is not 100% straightforward, because these are issues of the mind, and I would say there could be a case made that physical symptoms (such as chemical imbalances in the brain and whatnot) are caused by the mental issue, rather than the other way around--especially if you want to accept (as Tolkien did) that we have free will. Granted, not all mental illness would be attributable to free will originally, but it is certainly possible for a sane man to drive himself crazy. There are also related issues. The first is that of Elves being biologically similar--if not the same--as Men, since they can interbreed, despite the obvious difference of fate. The second issue is that Elves do not seem to possess the same sort of free will as Men, since they don't share the Gift. So... out of all this tangle of factoids, I ask the question: can Elves possess psychological illnesses as we know it? In other words, if Celeborn and Maglor wandered down to the Seventh Age, could modern psychology have shed light on some of their kinsmen of old? Even if we, as readers, can never, ever say for sure that any literary character has any psychological ailment, can we rule out psychological problems as we know them for the Eldar, or do we have to say they could still have been in play?
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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03-30-2011, 02:17 PM
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Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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It is confusing in part because the most central feature of Luthien is her beauty and lots of guys other than Beren fall for her, some more honourably than others. And out of her beauty, many things also beautiful can be created. She sings spring into being and is closely aligned with the natural world. Her word can make walls and towers crumble. Her voice is like the voice of nightengales and larks. Her beauty is the beauty of Arda. (See "Of Beren and Luthien"). In at least two instances, Huan speaks in matters related to her, so possibly her light is so strong that it can cause animals to speak. She may even be able to shape shift herself and Beren into other creatures. So that when Melkor conceives his evil lust and dark designs, it is well more than mere sexual desire: here he has a chance, if he captures her and gains control over her, to gain that power over Arda. He would be forcing the uttermost example of beauty to his vile ends. He would be perverting all light and goodness to evil. He wouldn't be just destroying beauty; he would be appropriating it for evil. Speculation, of course, but based on what Luthien is capable of. Quote:
 They are cetainly capable of some brutal behaviours because of various oaths, wraths, etc.--killing their own kin and they do seem to share many emotions with the other Children. There are also differences amongst the elves which might play into your question. Would the dark elves be more susceptible to mental illness? We are told that Feanor becomes "fey" when "consumed by the flame of his own wrath". Given the context, this sounds closer to the old beserker warrrior mode than mental illness, but attacking Morgoth as he does certainly does sound like he's 'taken leave of his senses.' Your answer may lie in the hroar/fea discussions about elves, methinks.  Quote:
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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03-30-2011, 02:28 PM
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Dead Serious
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,328
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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03-30-2011, 03:23 PM
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Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,512
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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