[Galin]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

'I don't think that LotR's is clear at all concerning the elves for the most part, after all directly contradicting his definition in the appendix are examples in the text itself that make no sense going by that definition of Eldar...'

Appendix F notes that Eldar (West-elves) refers to the Elves that passed over Sea plus the Sindar only. That's a clear enough definition to my mind -- what examples are you speaking of in any event?

'... going by just LotR, there is no statement that Legolas is one of the Sindar. Therefore, going by your statement that unpublished writings should not take precedence over author-published statements, Legolas is not an Eldar.'

Yet in my opinion it's not exactly a wayward conclusion based on The Lord of the Rings, and I can add Robert Foster to that opinion. Thranduil is noted as Sindarin in The Lord of the Rings, and Legolas is his son. I'm sure we can all agree that there are ways to attack this arguably simplified conclusion (as we are already doing)... but in any case, the statement I already cited (Appendix F) appears to charactierize all the Elves and Elf-lords in this history (thus Legolas of course) as Eldarin.

Tolkien himself might niggle with calling Legolas Sindarin, but I think even he must admit that what he published naturally enough leads one down this path. The Oropher example is a good one: here I think the natural implication of published text is that Thranduil (not Oropher) established his kingdom in the Second Age before the building of Barad-dur -- or at least early enough in the Second Age.

Of course people can (and will) correct that based on Tolkien's private (and relatively brief) notes on the movements of some Elf named Oropher, who doesn't even get mentioned in Appendix B, but in my opinion such a 'correction' comes with a little asterisk at least, or should.

JRRT wrote: 'Legolas is translated Greenleaf (II 106, 154) a suitable name for a Woodland Elf, though one of royal and originally Sindarin line.' letter 297, 1967

A good way to put it perhaps

He might be able to, but he doesn't. That makes all the difference in the world to me. He or Tolkien could have included himself as an Elda, if he thought that it was important or that it was correct to refer to him as. He doesn't, so all we have are the writer's words that he was a Silvan elf and a wood elf, versus thoughts that he could be or might be one of the Eldar.

Again, I'm willing to give Tolkien some room when he uses the word 'all' but Legolas appears more than any other Elf 'in this history' so I think he would be an odd and rather notable exception to that statement.

Galadriel55 wrote: His background wasn't finished (according to the Enc. of Arda, there are two versions - one that says Oropher is a Sinda who came from across the River, and another that he was a Silvan Elf), so there's no point in trying to prove any story.

I see no great reason to think Tolkien was writing two different tales here -- regarding Oropher's clan status that is (basically the tale varies concerning his movements and the reasoning behind his movements). I would put it this way, Oropher was Sindarin, specifically said to be so in one text, yes, but still noted as the father of Thranduil in the other -- who is specifically noted to be Sindarin in Appendix B.


Again, did JRRT recall the 'implication' in Appendix B when he tested the Orophorian waters here? and if he did not, once having done so (in theory) would he necessarily try to add Oropher? Perhaps... he certainly could characterize Appendix B as extremely contracted history and wedge in Oropher... but one never knows.

But I digress