[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Yes she had an army, but it´s explicitly stated that

It seems Galadriel the the main reason Lorien was safe.

I always thught Rivendell was safe because it was located in a valley, I never read something about a spell making Rivendell safe.

That was one of the reasons the other was Elrond, just like with Galadriel. Gandalf himself says that Rivendell would be the very last to fall.

Yes, it may be sure that Gandalf and Aragon would be in greater need and therefore greater tempted, but maybe Galadriel felt that she was in the greatest need, that would be subjective thinking on her part, it´s dependent on the character and how despaired one person is, maybe Galadriel is at this point the most despaired. (besides, the entire world and everyone good in it was dear to her too)
I mean, look at her lament or That´s just my take on it, I know Gollum was probably not despaired, but you can´t compare them, she had her own reasonings to be so tempted and I don´t think it was because of her power longing, cause at this stage I don´t think she longed for power that much any more.

It is due to the fault in her. Only after she rejects the Ring is her ban lifted. It's only then that she has realised why she was wrong and repented.

Yes it is ironic, but that´s not something she achieved herself, like I said she was just lcky to marry Aragon.

Her claim to be Queen of Elves is something she had of her own merit. She rules all the elvish lands.

How that? I should read the Silm again

It goes into deeper depth about this in Morgoth's ring. Men are not innocents abandoned by the Valar and corrupted by Morgoth. They had the fortune of Eru himself speaking to them, but they chose Morgoth.

Yo situate it in such a negative light, Thingol was apparently OK with it, even giving Finrod a tip and unless I´m wrong, they all respected him as their hight king, didn´t they? Ulmo supported that too, helping Fingon.

Thingol was not happy with it and they did not respect him as the High King. The sons of Feanor even called him erroneously a Dark Elf, forgetting he had seen the light of the trees.

So there is the rule not to leave Aman without permission?!?! If that´s the case than the Noldor really never were free. Of course they are free, I know that, your comment just don´t fit, if you leave out the kinslayers, then they just rejected their council to stay and that justifies a ban?!?! So the Eldar of Valinor are expected always to agree with the Valar in all matters and are never to confess their own opinion?!?!
Just for exemple, there is an elf on Tol Eressea (who has done no crime) and the Valar, or one Valar commands them to come to Valimar and then the elf is not in the mood for that (for whatever reason), would the Valar punish him or her?
I think I don´t get the relationship between the Valar and elves, how they life with each other.

You want it both ways. If you refuse the council and advise of the Valar then why should the Valar help you? If you choose to leave the home they granted you, why should they give you a chance to return? The elves are lucky the Valar are merciful. By all rights the Valar could just abandon the Noldor to fade in Middle Earth.

But for the younger Noldor (like Galadriel) it was, I beleive Tirion was compleated, so she had not the opportunity to be a part of the people who achieved something in their life.

That was not the sole reason. They wanted power and wide lands to rule, they believed the lies of Morgoth. This cannot be escaped. The reasons the Noldor left were tainted.

I disagree, besides the Silmaril, the greatest works of the Noldor were their kingdoms in ME. IMHO

NO city on ME was as fair as Tirion, which they built in Valinor.

I don´t think wanting a own realm is greedy and selfish, the elves of Lorien for example were happy to have a leader again.
Was Turgon selfish or greedy in building Gondolin? It was admired by many. Common elves would be happy that someone is coming who takes the reins.
You can´t work against an enemy if you aren´t organized, sure there was Thingol, but if there are too many people you need more then one king, or why are there 3 or 4 elven kings in aman? (Would Thingol be King in Aman again?)

Yes wanting to rule is selfish. The kings should be there to serve the people. The Rangers are the perfect example. Even when they are denied the glory, prestige and honour they deserve, they never stop protecting their subjects. That is true nobility.

Slightly off topic, but I was reading why Cirdan had greater foresight than even Elrond. Tolkien being the sort of writer he was, needed to explain why Cirdan would have greater foresight than Elrond, who had divine blood. The answer is Cirdan greatly wanted to go to Valinor, to see the Two Trees and to meet his kin and close friend Olwe. Yet at the request of the Valar he stayed and helped those in Middle Earth. That is why the Valar rewarded him with such great foresight.

The Princes of the Noldor were thinking about themselves and not what was best for their people. This was selfish and based on pride.

And the princes never suppressed anyone, the common Noldor who followed obviously were content being under their rule.

Yes, but they should have done what was best for their people and not only to extend their power and glory.

She was even banned in a version where she wasn´t proud and was not with the Noldor and never saw Namo declaring the doom.

Yes, because she knew in her heart even in this version she should have gone back to seek council from the Valar about what should be done. In this version her pride leads her to leaving Aman to thwart Feanor. Either way pride led her to an unwise decision.

This is the difference between Glorfindel and the other princes like Fingon and Turgon. Glorfindel left only out of his kinship to Turgon and a desire to help his people. Though he was wrong to rebel his motives were selfless and he was rewarded.

So you say that she wanted to return but was too proud to do so? I read it as she was too proud to return but didn´t wanted to return anyway.

No I am saying she KNEW it was the right thing to return, but was to proud to do the right thing and did what she wanted.

It's not a coincidence in Tolkien that people without pride ending up ruling.

Aragorn inherits the kingdom Isildur lost, Finarfin inherits the kingship that Fingolfin/Feanor lost. Arwen becomes the great Queen, that Galadriel never becomes.

That said Galadriel was very great and very powerful. She suffered for her mistakes and learned from them. She played a pivotal role in the destruction of Sauron and is rightly held in high esteem.